odyssey

usenet

Posts 1996-2018; edits marked like [this]. I hardly dared to edit anything since the most fundamental initial ideas of exactphilosophy.net emerged while I was posting a lot to Usenet and they were usually first announced there. So as a service to future researchers posts are essentially left unfiltered.

First posts that directly publish ideas from exactphilosophy.net are from 20 June 2002 at 09:00 CEST when also exactphilosophy.net first went live with non-empty content, but note that some of the "signatures"/"certificates" appended to posts before that are cryptographic hashes or signatures of earlier discovery disclosure text files.

The crucial post overall related to exactphilosophy.net is "Disclosure" of 20 May 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical, the first mention of the idea to define 4+1 elements in terms of immediate perception of space and time as in/out and rest/move and their transmutations. Besides my model of elemental transmutations in the zodiac and discussions at alt.astrology.tropical, an important precursor was the post "Rapid Communication - Axes and Opposites" of 28 Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated, inspired in part by Werner Held's diploma thesis.

Subject: trueColor for HyperCard :-)
Date: Thu 27 Jun 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <31D34ADD.581E@generation.net>#1/1

trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.

You can give buttons and fields colors and color pictures.
Buttons can have color icons.

You can cut, copy and paste color pictures and icons
to and from the clipboard.
You can move fields and buttons in color.

A help stack with extensive documentation is included.

trueColor is free for non-commercial use.

trueColor requires HyperCard 2.2 or later*,
a 68020 processor or higher (including any PowerPC processor).
Some features require 32-Bit QuickDraw (included in Sys 7).

I have submitted trueColor to the Macintosh archives
at the University of Michigan and at Stanford (Info-Mac).

You can also download it at: www.generation.net/~alainsta/x
(it's only 91K).

Alain Stalder


* trueColor runs very slowly on PowerMacs in Hypercard 2.2
if you have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.

Subject: Re: Setting font off all text in field?
Date: Fri 28 Jun 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <31D4A592.331D@generation.net>#1/1

DJ Feldmeyer wrote:
>
> Perhaps someone can improve on the following script, which is slow and
> ugly. I've set a font and style for a bg field, but when I paste text
> into it the text comes in with its own font and style. This script
> returns it to my preference. First, is there any way to paste the text
> in to take the font and style of the field, rather than retaining the
> pasted text's attributes? If not, why do I have to go through the text
> one line at a time, as follows, to reset it? The script:

Just press shift while pasting.

Alain Stalder

PS: you probably won't need it any more, but this would be a faster
script:

  select text of field "Text"
  doMenu "Espy Sans"
  doMenu 10
  select empty

Subject: Re: Stopping locked field text selection
Date: Wed 03 Jul 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <31DB21E8.531E@generation.net>#1/1

Jacqueline Landman Gay wrote:
>
> In article <malcolm-0307961308360001@adi004.adi.co.nz>, malcolm@adi.co.nz
> (Malcolm Bowers) wrote:
>
> > The trouble is that when you Command-Option-click any text in a locked
> > field under these conditions, the word clicked is selected (with a box,
> > like found text), and popped into the message box, which appears whether
> > or not there is a menu command for it. I really don't want that message
> > box there!
>
> Actually, when you Command-click (even without the Option key) this
> behavior occurs.There isn't any way to stop it.

Actually, I know a way to stop it. You can put the following
handler into the script of the field:

on mouseDown
  click at the mouseLoc
end mouseDown

(For Malcolm Bowers needs, I think, moving the message box off
the screen is definitely more elegant. The above handler could be
useful if you want unlocked fields to respond to mouse clicks, while
maintaining quick access to the message box.)

Alain Stalder

Subject: Quick Access to Properties from an XCMD ?
Date: Fri 02 Aug 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.help,comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: "Alain Stalder" <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <AE284220-43929@205.205.118.43>#1/1

Is there a *fast* way to access properties of HyperCard objects
from an XCMD (i.e. other than calling EvalExpr) ?

I have written a stack called 'trueColor'
which automatically colorizes cards
based on the properties of buttons and fields.
Color and references to PICT resources
are stored in the script of the buttons/fields.
(More info at "http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x").

Unless there are large color pictures on the card,
most of the time is used up for accessing the properties
of buttons and fields (rect, icon, visible, etc.) and
not for the actual painting. Painting using an XCMD
is only marginally faster than using a script.

Is there a safe way to access the data fork of an open stack ?
Does anybody know where to find documentation about
the data structure of a HyperCard stack ?

Thanks for any tips,   Alain

Subject: final version of trueColor for HyperCard
Date: Mon 05 Aug 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: "Alain Stalder" <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <AE2C3127-23BEA@205.205.118.21>#1/1

trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.

You can give buttons and fields colors and color pictures.
Buttons can have color icons.

You can cut, copy and paste color pictures and icons
to and from the clipboard.
You can move fields and buttons in color.

A help stack with extensive documentation is included.

Changes in this final version of trueColor:
* you can press shift while moving buttons and fields
  to move them vertically or horizontally only
* white pixels in pictures are now really painted transparently
* there is some additional help, especially for beginners

trueColor requires HyperCard 2.2 or later*,
a 68020 processor or higher (including any PowerPC processor).
Some features require 32-Bit QuickDraw (included in Sys 7).

* trueColor runs very slowly on PowerMacs in Hypercard 2.2
if you have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.

trueColor is free for non-commercial use.

Alain Stalder

--
If you want, you can get trueColor at http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x
or in about a week or two at the Info-Mac archive (I just submitted it).

Subject: Re: final version of trueColor for HyperCard
Date: Tue 06 Aug 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: "Alain Stalder" <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <AE2D8AF5-27274@205.205.118.183>#1/1

> In article <AE2C3127-23BEA@205.205.118.21>, "Alain Stalder"
> <alainsta@generation.net> wrote:
>
> > trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.
 [snip]
> > * trueColor runs very slowly on PowerMacs in Hypercard 2.2
> > if you have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.
>
> Sounds very interesting, but I run (and need) Ramdoubler. Why does it
 slow
> down so  much? Have you reported this to Connectix? I would imagine that
> they would be interested to hear this report.
>

The slowing down that I observed was only on *PowerMacs* with
*SpeedDoubler* installed and only in *HyperCard 2.2*
(or the 68K version of HyperCard 2.3).
It does not occur in the PowerPC native version of HyperCard 2.3.

I don't own *RAMDoubler*.
Did you try out trueColor on your (Power)Mac and it was
much slower with RAMDoubler installed ?

I am not sure why SpeedDoubler slows trueColor down.
It might have to do with many mode switches
between native and 68K emulation (the colorizeHC XCMD
is an 68K XCMD, but the QuickDraw routines it uses are native).
I did not contact Connectix. My guess is that they would probably
recommend upgrading to HyperCard 2.3.

Sorry I cannot be of more help.

Alain

Subject: Re: HyperCard 3
Date: Tue 13 Aug 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: "Alain Stalder" <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <AE36B2D0-11948@205.205.119.183>#1/1

Jordan Reiter <jreiter@comet.net> wrote:
> I've heard rumors of it.  Does anyone know when it's finally coming, and
> what updates it has that jacks it all the way up to 3?
>

There are two paragraphs about HyperCard 3.0
in TidBits #329, 20 May 1996
(http://hacksaw.cac.psu.edu/~pml105/tidbits/TidBITS-329.html).

According to the article, HyperCard 3.0 should appear
in spring of 1997, together with QuickTime 3.0.

As far as I understand from the article
(I did not see the described demo of HyperCard 3.0),
HyperCard will be integrated into QuickTime,
making HyperCard stacks playable from any appliction
that can play QuickTime movies.

This is probably great news for developers of multimedia
products (automatic Windows compatibility, Color, Internet).

I use HyperCard in a totally different way, mainly for
thinking and creating. I like HyperCard so much because
of its unobtrusive beauty and the total freedom --
I can control the whole computer (menus, keys, every
pixel on the screen, etc.) without having my thoughts
wander much awayfrom what I want to do towards purely
technical things.

So I am a bit concerned and hope that HyperCard 3.0
will be something that I want to buy.

Alain Stalder


PS: I am not totally sure, but wasn't it HyperCard
that inspired the guys at CERN to create the Web ?

Sharing HyperCard stacks directly over the net
could eliminate a lot of overhead involved
in creating HTML documents. Since web pages are
viewed on a computer screen, a card based approach,
where pictures etc. are placed with the mouse
would make some sense.

It is also strange that there are no full screen
web browsers where you would be totally immersed
in the net.

CyberCard rules !

Subject: Re: HyperCard 3
Date: Fri 16 Aug 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: "Alain Stalder" <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <AE3A7D95-15749E@205.205.118.225>#1/1

There is a lot of information about HyperCard 3.0 at the "HyperCard
Heaven":

http://members.aol.com/hcheaven/index.html

Subject: Re: exporting a HC built PICT's
Date: Sun 01 Sep 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <stalder@physics.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960901104945.14698B-100000@luthien.physics.mcgill.ca>#1/1

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, L Butler wrote:
> I was wondering it was possible to have HC build a color PICT graphic
> using the drawing tools for color and but placing individual graphics on
> top of each other, and then exporting that final image as a graphics file?
>
> I'd like to have HC build graphics for our Web site and then take the
> finshed image and convert it to GIF for the Web.  There would be something
> like 10-15 individual pictures making the image, but I want all of them to
> be exported as one image, is it possible?

About a week ago I had the same problem. I rewrote my web site
as a HyperCard stack and used a second HyperCard stack to
automatically create a GIF or JPEG file of each card of the stack
(and also a HTML file and MAP file for navigating between cards
based on the  scripts of buttons and fields of the stack).

I solved the conversion problem in the following way:

First I took a screen shot using the doFKEY XCMD by John Pugh
(doFKEY 3). Then I converted the "rect of this card" to a
GIF/JPEG file using AppleScript and the Freeware program
"clip2gif" by Ives Piguet. The program comes with full
documentation of about how to use it with AppleScript.

As far as I know, there are also several similar conversion
programs around. If you only need to convert one card, you might
of course do the above by hand (cmd-shift-3 for screen shot,...).

Alain Stalder

--
alainsta@generation.net
http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x/
(yes, that's the site mentioned above)

Subject: Re: PICT problems w/2.2 & clr tools???
Date: Wed 25 Sep 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <stalder@physics.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960925043049.17286A-100000@luthien.physics.mcgill.ca>#1/1

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Tom Witte wrote:

> There is a xcmd that is suppose to let std effects work with color tools.

Do you know the name of that XCMD or where it is available ?

Alain
--
alainsta@generation.net
http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x

Subject: trueColor for HyperCard 2.1
Date: Sat 30 Nov 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: "Alain Stalder" <alainsta@generation.net>
Message-ID: <AEC6207A-23781@205.205.118.158>#1/1

Sorry for the empty message,

I just put the new version of trueColor (1.02)
onto my web site:

  http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x

trueColor now works with HyperCard 2.1 or later.
This was possible, because an external function is used
to collect part properties with the additional result that
painting cards is now about 50-100% faster.

It is still only 90k to download.

I also put a set of HyperCard tools onto my web site
which let you print cards in color (independent of
trueColor), convert from trueColor to Apple's Color Tools,
create web pages from stacks, and more ...

These are not commercial products,
all my stacks are Freeware.

Alain Stalder (alainsta@generation.net)

--

This is the "read me" file of trueColor:

trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.

You can give buttons and fields colors and color pictures.
Buttons can have color icons.

You can cut, copy and paste color pictures and icons
to and from the clipboard.
You can move fields and buttons in color.

The information about the color properties is
stored within the buttons and fields,
so eg. moving a button with a color icon
requires only to move the button,
not the button first, and then a color overlay.

trueColor requires HyperCard 2.1 or later
a 68020 or higher, preferably a PowerPC or a fast 68k Mac.
Some features require 32-bit QuickDraw (included in Sys 7),
QuickTime, or a monitor with at least 16 colors/grays.


trueColor is
=A9 Copyright 1996 by Alain Stalder.
All Rights Reserved.
It is free for non-commerial use.


Changes in 1.02 (dec'96)

trueColor now works with HyperCard 2.1 or later.
This was possible, because an external function is used
to collect part properties with the additional result that
painting cards is now about 50-100% faster.

There is a minor pitfall if you used an earlier version
of trueColor: you will have to press ctrl-t once on
every background that uses trueColor in order to update it.
This replaces the background button trueColor by
a field of the same name (HyperCard 2.1 cannot put
any contents into buttons).

The external function accesses the open stack as a binary file.
The script version for painting cards is still in trueColor
and is used if the XFCN fails or the version of HyperCard is 3.0 or
higher.

As a side effect, trueColor is no longer slow in HyperCard 2.2
on PowerMacs that have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.

The screen is now locked before going from card to card.
Color fillings are no longer shown on screens with less
than 16 colors/grays (wrong colors were displayed).
The control-key for showing the pasting options is now ctrl-o.
(ctrl-p is reserved for printing in color.)


Troubleshooting

There is a flaw in Apple's Color Tools that can conflict
with trueColor; it occurs only  if you have colorized
your home stack using Apple's Color Tools.

In that case, the following handlers have been put into the
script of your home stack:

  on openCard
    Send colorMe to this card
    pass openCard
  end openCard

  on closeCard
    lock screen
    pass closeCard
  end closeCard

  on openStack
    AddColor install
    pass openStack
  end openStack

  on closeStack
    AddColor remove
    pass closeStack
  end closeStack

The problem is that for example the openStack message
is sent to the home stack even if another stack  is opened.

The solution is simply to check if the home stack was opened.
Just replace the above handlers in your home stack by these:

  on openCard
    if long name of this stack is long name of home
    then Send colorMe to this card
    pass openCard
  end openCard

  on closeCard
    if long name of this stack is long name of home
    then lock screen
    pass closeCard
  end closeCard

  on openStack
    if long name of this stack is long name of home
    then AddColor install
    pass openStack
  end openStack

  on closeStack
    if long name of this stack is long name of home
    then AddColor remove
    pass closeStack
  end closeStack

Note that your home stack will still be in color, i.e. these changes
are fully compatible with Apple's Color Tools.

Subject: trueTools: spider update
Date: Tue 24 Dec 1996
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <stalder@physics.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.961224115511.18737B-100000@luthien.physics.mcgill.ca>#1/1

If you got the following error message when trying out
my "spider" stack (a very simple stack that converts
specially written HyperCard stacks to web pages):

  Clip2gif got an error: Cannot make data into the expected type.

then you can find a fixed version [7K] at

  http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x

Thanks to Doug Rogers <drogers@icis.on.ca> who pointed
out the bug on the HyperCard mailing list a few weeks ago
and with whom I exchanged several e-mails to track down the error.

Merry Xmas everybody

Alain Stalder
(alainsta@generation.net)


PS: The problem was the AppleScript command to convert a screenshot
    of the card window to a GIF/JPEG file using the program
    clip2gif. Instead of eg.

      save file "Harddisk:Picture 1" as GIF in file ...

    the command originally was

      save "Harddisk:Picture 1" as GIF in file ...

    which works only on some systems, including the ones
    I originally tested it on.

Subject: Announce: trueColor and trueTools 1.03
Date: Sat 31 May 1997
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <stalder@physics.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970531062401.19879B-100000@luthien.physics.mcgill.ca>#1/1

I have updated my HyperCard stacks to reflect my new
addresses:

  http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/WWW/stalder/x

  astalder@webshuttle.ch

and fixed a bug in one of the stacks.

trueColor provides intuitive Color for HyperCard 2.1
or later; the trueTools let you for example print
cards in color (although only at screen resolution)
or convert specially written stacks to to web pages.

For more information check out the web site;
the stacks are only 200k total to download.

Alain

Subject: Re: printing dialog
Date: Sun 07 Sep 1997
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <34126641.54D0@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

> (May I dare to append another little question: is there a possibility to
> make "Chooser-choices" from within HyperCard?, in this case to select
> the fax driver and then, after faxing, to reselect my normal StyleWriter
> on the Serial Port automatically?)

There is an external command (XCMD) called "ChoosePrinter"
in Rinaldi's External Collection that should do what you want:

ftp://ftp.supelec.fr/pub/machines/macintosh/Rinaldi_Collection/US_Version/Chooser_2.2_%28US%29.sit.hqx

Alain Stalder
--
astalder@webshuttle.ch
http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/WWW/stalder/x

Subject: Re: XCMD help!
Date: Sat 03 Jan 1998
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <34AE8D80.67B1@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

Karl Becker (funkboy@btigate.com) wrote:
> I'm attempting to write my first XCMD, and I'm trying to find some help
> on what to do.  I have all the big time stuff (Codewarrior 11 AND Pro
> Release #1) , but I just can't find an empty XCMD shell that could aid
> me along well enough.  I tried to download the file that was at the XCMD
> Hideout (The detailed one written by Mark Hanrek) , but the server kept
> saying it was busy.  If anyone could give me a different URL or just
> some general XCMD advice I'd appreciate it.

There used to be sample XCMD projects on the CodeWarrior 10 CD.
Maybe they were thrown out in version 11, but it might be worth
a quick look.

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
583646cdf33605d4cdcdd77ed9a78a2c
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Subject: Re: Java-abled person?
Date: Sun 04 Jan 1998
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.java.help
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <34AF4A1B.5784@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

> I managed to get an error reading:
> Warning: Public class Welcome must be defined in a file called
> "Welcome.java".

Simply rename your source file to "Welcome.java" (case sensitive).

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
583646cdf33605d4cdcdd77ed9a78a2c
9506a242d7d22ff7b0c3b74e3a5c93150767a09f

Subject: Re: trueColor
Date: Wed 06 May 1998
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <354FD794.38740D27@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

> I have am able to get the 'color picker' to appear in my own stack by
> using 'cntrl-f' but after I choose a color and close the picker, the
 color
> does not appear in the field or button where the mouse was positioned.

Might be lack of memory. The trueHelp stack is only about 400x250
pixels,
so it needs less memory to display color than a larger stack.

(You can give HyperCard more memory by selecting it in the Finder and
choosing "Get Info" from the "File" menu).

Alain Stalder
astalder@webshuttle.ch

Subject: Test
Date: Sat 15 Jan 2000
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <38808AF5.C57BDE90@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

>This is a test.

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
begin certificate
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Subject: Re: HyperCard 3.0 News from MacWorld!!!
Date: Sat 15 Jan 2000
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <38809FF0.CEC4FE41@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

Jacqueline Landman Gay wrote:

> HyperCard, on the other hand, has no such focus. Because it is so hard
> to define what HyperCard is, it is just as hard to find a key strategy
> that will sell it to the masses. He said he reads each letter we send,
> looking for a key phrase or idea that will define a market focus -- but
> while each letter contains a use for HyperCard that is important to each
> user's unique situation, no letter has had a focus that Apple could
> adopt as a wide-spread marketing tactic. Again, "programming" or
> "empowerment" is not good enough; the masses either don't care, or the
> concept is too general.

I think there is no such key phrase or idea, there is no simple catchy
way to convince people to buy HyperCard. HyperCard is too general; it
does what an operating system does, it hides technical details from the
user.

In my opinion, the only way to sell HyperCard, is to include it into
the operation system; this strategy has already worked quite well in
the past. I would try to write a few applications that people will use
every day as HyperCard stacks. From the top of my head, those could
for example be an e-mail client, a photo album, Sherlock...

That way people would end up in HyperCard almost daily and eventually
start to make some modifications to existing stacks: add a new button,
maybe after some time write a little script - exactly as it has happend
more than ten years ago.

For Apple I see two ways how to make money out of this:
- Many people will be much more bound to the Mac than without HyperCard.
  If you have modified, say, your e-mail client by adding a custom
  background you like and some extra buttons that do repetious tasks
  for you, you are much more unlikely to switch to a differnt computer
  than if you were using, say, Netscape as a mail client.
- Apple could sell a HyperCard Pro for, say, 30$, like it does with
  QuickTime. The lite version included in the operating system should
  allow (almost?) full scripting, though, else, as pointed out above,
  people are unlikely ever to buy the Pro version because they never
  discovered that it could do something useful for them. I think a good
  way to limit the lite version would be to limit the maximal size of
  the stack or the maximal number of cards it can contain (larger stacks
  than that would have the userLevel limited to typing or maybe painting
  only).

Any comments ?
Do you think such a strategy could work and be profitable ?
Any good ideas for HyperCard "applications" to include into MacOS ?

Feel free to forward this message or the ideas it contains to anybody
you see fit.

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
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Subject: Re: Inexperienced Port from C to Java
Date: Sat 15 Jan 2000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3880B7B9.E0A41C41@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

'double' is a primitive data type in Java along with
int, char, etc.; 'Double' with a capital D is
a Java class with methods. One of its methods is
doubleValue() which returns a double value.

The other three errors oocur because the compiler
could not tell for sure if the three variables
pp, rr and tt had been initialized.

You could rewrite

> double pp;
> double rr;
> int tt;
 [...]
> for(int i = 0;i< args.length; i++) {
>   switch(i) {
>     case 1:
>       pp = Double.valueOf(args[i]);
>     case 2:
>       rr = Double.valueOf(args[i]);
>     case 3:
>       tt = Integer.parseInt(args[i]);
>     }
>   }

as

double pp = Double.valueOf(args[0]).doubleValue();
double rr = Double.valueOf(args[1]).doubleValue();
double tt = Integer.parseInt(args[2]);

Hope this helps.

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
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Subject: Re: Why??
Date: Sat 15 Jan 2000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.help
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3880BC21.93B1E39B@webshuttle.ch>#1/1

In the init() method the variable MsgNumber is
only initialized if param is not null.

> if ( param != null )
>  MsgNumber = new Integer(param).intValue();

Also the paint() method will fail if MsgNumber
is not initialized.

Hope this helps.

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
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Subject: Re: HyperCard 3.0 News from MacWorld!!!
Date: Mon 17 Jan 2000
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3883016C.2A5B8DA5@webshuttle.ch>

Thanks everybody for the feedback...

Let me first say a few more things about my original post and
maybe clarify a few points...

A few years ago, somebody on this newsgroup or on the HyperCard
mailing list described one of her first experiences with HyperCard.
(I don't remember for sure who it was, but I think it might have
been Jacqueline Landman Gay).

As I remember, she described the feeling of power she had when
she hid the menubar for the first time. No marketing, not even
the coolest TV ad can give you such a feeling. I think, HyperCard
has become so important to many people because they did something
themselves with HyperCard that they are proud of. That is why many
people would almost rather die than to buy a computer that has
no HyperCard; that is why some people are fighting so much to
preserve HyperCard.

That is essentially why I wrote that I think that the only way to
sell HyperCard is by letting people use it and discover the
HyperCard experience for themselves.

I think a niche market is too small for HyperCard (maybe not really,
but for Apple to consider it worth the effort). The world has
changed since the first Macs were introduced about 15 years ago.

Today most people who buy an iMac or an iBook use their computer
as consumers, more like a TV. I think that, compared to 15 years
ago, there is probably a lower percentage of users now that
really create things on a computer (other that writing a few
letters from time to time).

Now, if HyperCard is part of the operating system and if, say,
Sherlock is a HyperCard stack, then people will start creating
things without noticing. Suppose Apple provides some customizable
search buttons, then people will start copying those around and
customize them. This is one of the greatest advantages of HyperCard:
you become a programmer in small steps without even noticing, and,
most importantly, each step is immediately rewarded by something
you did yourself that works and is useful for you (or others, or
is something that looks good, or something you can show off to
others, etc.).

In his October 1999 interview in Time Magazine, Steve Jobs says:
[http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,32207-1,00.html]

> Reinventing Apple
> One of the things that happened when we got back to Apple was, we
> said, Apple's all confused. Apple's forgotten what it is. Who is
> Apple? Why is Apple here? Remember, the roots of Apple were to
> build computers for people, not for corporations. At the time we
> started Apple, IBM built computers for corporations. Now it's
> Microsoft and Intel. But there was nobody building a computer for
> people. Funny enough, 20 years after we started Apple, there was
> nobody building computers for people again. You know? They were
> trying to sell consumers last year's corporate computers. We said,
> "Well, these are our roots. This is why we're here. The world
> doesn't need another Dell or Compaq. They need an Apple."
[...]

In my opinion this clearly shows that Apple is not very much
interested in selling a product to a niche market, they want to
produce computers and software for most people.


Dominique Delefortrie <dd11@free.fr> wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch> wrote:
>
> > - Apple could sell a HyperCard Pro for, say, 30$, like it does with
> >   QuickTime. The lite version included in the operating system should
> >   allow (almost?) full scripting, though, else, as pointed out above,
>
> and call the lite version "HyperCard Player" ;->
>
> Or -- allow scripting, but with max 10 lines useful script, as in
> something beginning with "Meta" ;->>

Thanks for you comments, Dominique. Do I correctly interpret
the ";->" and ";->>" as sarkasm ?

"HyperCard Player" is probably the last name I would choose; it is
exactly not meant as program that is good only for consuming something
that somebody else created. I would rather call it "HyperCard" and the
30$ version "HyperCard Pro".

Limiting the number of lines in a script that one can edit and change
to 10 lines seems too drastic to me. You cannot do anything sensible
with 10 lines. I would do it more gently.

If the maximal number of cards is limited to 20 cards and you have
made or customized, say, an address book stack then you will be able
to use it and do everything you want until you want to enter data for
the 21st person. Now you have at least two options. The first is to
split your address book into two (and later maybe more) stacks.
This will mean some extra work, but you can do it. The alternative is
to go to Apple's web site, register it, and a few minutes later will
have a full version (just by entering a registration code, no download).
It would probably be a good idea to provide some more features other
than removing the limit of number of cards if you want to sell
HyperCard Pro for 30$. These could be additional documentation, stacks,
external functions, etc. that you could download from the web.
(You would have to indicate a valid combination of name and
registration code at Apple's web site in order to download).


<george.claesNOgeSPAM@village.uunet.be.invalid> wrote:
> I red at MacCentral Online that the future of Hypercard hangs on
> successful marketing niche.
> I have the feelings that Apple doesn't know his customers : the
> marketing niche are all the people that is using hypercard and buying
> Macintosh computers since over years. For myself : wath links me to
> Apple-Macintosh is Hypercard and I have bought yet 5 Macintosh
> computers in 8 years. If the next computer I'll buy will be a
> Apple-Macintosh depends on if I'll be able to continue working with
> Hypercard.
> For the new customers : Hypercard can be presented as the Swiss knife,
> you can use it in so many circumstances and for so many goals. That is
> just his power.

Thanks for your comments, George.
The impression I got from the Interview that Jacqueline Landman Gay and
Steve Collins had with Apple's Phil Schiller is rather that Apple does
recognize that there are people that are using and depending on
HyperCard, but also that those people are not going pay enough money
to pay for development of a new version. Or, even if it would pay,
Apple probably feels that HyperCard developers at Apple could have done
other more profitable things for Apple.

The term "swiss knife" is certainly good, but, as I understand the
interview with Phil Schiller, Apple does not think that that would
be sufficient to market HyperCard as a separate product.

Here is the corresponding paragraph from the interview again.
Jacqueline Landman Gay wrote:
> HyperCard, on the other hand, has no such focus. Because it is so hard
> to define what HyperCard is, it is just as hard to find a key strategy
> that will sell it to the masses. He said he reads each letter we send,
> looking for a key phrase or idea that will define a market focus -- but
> while each letter contains a use for HyperCard that is important to each
> user's unique situation, no letter has had a focus that Apple could
> adopt as a wide-spread marketing tactic. Again, "programming" or
> "empowerment" is not good enough; the masses either don't care, or the
> concept is too general.

I would rather try to market HyperCard as part of MacOS. HyperCard would
be one point besides, say voice login, Sherlock, etc. I think, associating
HyperCard with a swiss knife would be a good idea.

> Hi All.
>
> I like Alain's approach. I also like the comments that George Claes
> made.
>
> I originally used HyperCard to learn about the Mac. It was shipped as
> part of the Apple "parcel". I later upgraded from 1.2 to 2.1, but not
> since. I have never felt that there was enough in the upgrades to
> warrant the money. I used it for a data dictionary for a programming
> project and it did well in that role.
>
> Another super product is Prograph. This is a visual programming language
> that has both high and low level capability. It too is passionately
> loved by its user community. However, Pictorius, the owner has abandoned
> it as a general purpose development tool. They now use it as a tool to
> help corporate organizations develop Web based businesses.
>
> Now my thoughts are this - could HyperCard do this? The answer is
> definitely "YES". There is/was a product called HyperGASP. I have used
> this to develop Web pages in HTML, without writing a line of HTML code.
> The advantage is that you can prove all the links without writing any
> HyperTalk code or generating the HTML. The finished HyperCard version
> stands on its own, but HyperGASP allows you to generate the HTML too.
>
> No one can deny the impact that the Internet has had on modern
> businesses. Now, I think I am right when I say that Apple does not have
> a Web development product. HyperCard could very well become that
> solution if HyperCard 3.0 is given this direction. Let's face it, both
> HC and HTML are hypertext!
>
> That's my 2 penn'th (2 cents worth if you prefer! ;-).

Thanks for your comments, Shane.

Unfortunately, Apple is already selling a product called WebObjects
(developed originally at NEXT, I think) which according to Apple's
web site is aimed at the follwowing customers:
> The #1 application server on the market just got even better. With
> major advances in performance and Java functionality, WebObjects 4 is
> perfect for everything from small workgroups to large corporate web
> sites and extranets serving millions of users.

Maybe HyperCard could be sold as a Apple's tool that allow's the
"average Joe" to create and maintain his/her web site ?
I think it would be hard to convice Apple to do so because there are
several different programs like that out there already. And it seems
to me that at least some of those other programs are easier to market
because they are essentially word processors that produce web pages
("With our product, creating a web page is as easy as writing a
letter.")

Again, Apple could build HyperCard into the MacOS and provide some
stacks that let you easily create a web page. That feature could
easily be marketed as part of marketing Mac OS.


I am now seriously considering to contact Apple about the idea to
market HyperCard as part of MacOS. I am thinking about an e-mail
to Phil Schiller and Steve Jobs that contains a single gif file
that presents the idea as directly as possible.

I know there are lots of people here who have been fighting for
HyperCard during the last few years. I don't want to step on your toes.
If anyone of you feels that sending such an e-mail to Apple directly
would rather jeopardize your efforts or if you would rather contact
Apple yourself in the matter, please say so.


Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
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end certificate

Subject: Re: Beginner
Date: Mon 10 Jul 2000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder-72DEF1.15102410072000@news.webshuttle.ch>#1/1

In article <1iba5.97292$Do1.1085547@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>, "Mike"
<hartman316@home.com> wrote:

> Hi.. i'm 15.. I was wondering if there are really good books or someting
> to
> learn java.. complete beginner also how much do java developers get paid
>
>

I can recommend "Java Developer's Resource" by Elliote Rusty Harold
very much:

  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/jdr/

Unfortunatlely it seems to be out of print now; the author writes:

"It is now out of print, though copies of the first edition are fairly
easily available through standard used book channels."

Hope this helps

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
begin certificate
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XJ49eUXqBV5hWWIJ0azUAviumcPupQlLAcGQMQ==
end certificate
[Hashes, timestamp (e-timestamp.com) and signature (Swisskey) of jan2000.txt
"Discovery Disclosure (January 2000)" derived in the same fashion as described
in Appendix B of discoveries.pdf "A few new discoveries in physics".
Also published as a bitmap in the about box of the PalmOS astrology program
"Delphi" in versions 1.0, 1.01 and 1.02]


Subject: Re: Beginner
Date: Mon 10 Jul 2000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder-B045B0.15201510072000@news.webshuttle.ch>#1/1

I forgot to mention that the first three chapters of the book
are online.

Alain


In article <astalder-72DEF1.15102410072000@news.webshuttle.ch>, Alain
Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch> wrote:

> In article <1iba5.97292$Do1.1085547@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>, "Mike"
> <hartman316@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi.. i'm 15.. I was wondering if there are really good books or
> > someting
> > to
> > learn java.. complete beginner also how much do java developers get
> > paid
> >
> >
>
> I can recommend "Java Developer's Resource" by Elliote Rusty Harold
> very much:
>
>   http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/jdr/
>
> Unfortunatlely it seems to be out of print now; the author writes:
>
> "It is now out of print, though copies of the first edition are fairly
> easily available through standard used book channels."
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
>
> --
> begin certificate
> DZodO12rbj9xAV0UeFWllhq1FMkHjO2qS8rFtBYwcQmkV6ORLMXtBdVONyFUD2tmfmrZK/Re
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> XJ49eUXqBV5hWWIJ0azUAviumcPupQlLAcGQMQ==
> end certificate

Subject: Re: .sig test
Date: Mon 10 Jul 2000
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder-CC3AFB.15515310072000@news.webshuttle.ch>#1/1

In article <39693e4e@flexnet239.uunt.net>, "Lisa Thornsbury"
<gotmilk230@peoplepc.com> wrote:

> --
> --Chibi-chan
>
> ***Plushie of the Week: Mirai Matt***
>
> This week's plushie comes in two different styles. MiraiMatt-AWAY will
> say
> he's away, but stay and talk for a while longer. Mirai Matt with Newbie
> Flaming Action is the hottest item of the year! He comes with an actual
> flame thrower and pot holders. Be careful not to squeeze this one too
> hard!
>
> Heh. Guess what Joel. Now I've got enough space alloted to be able to
> quote
> parts of the chats... ~.^
>
>

Testing...

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
begin certificate
DZodO12rbj9xAV0UeFWllhq1FMkHjO2qS8rFtBYwcQmkV6ORLMXtBdVONyFUD2tmfmrZK/Re
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end certificate

Subject: test abcdefg
Date: Sat 7 Oct 2000 11:44:30 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@my-deja.com
Message-ID: <8rmr9u$t8s$1@nnrp1.deja.com>

sadfsdafsdaafsdaf
sdfsdafsdafsdfdsaafdsaf


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Subject: ANNOUNCE: Delphi -- free, easy to use Palm OS astrology program
Date: Sat 7 Oct 2000 11:57:42 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology,alt.astrology.marketplace,free.uk.astrology,sci.astrology.marketplasce
From: delphi29@my-deja.com
Message-ID: <8rms2m$tm8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>

Delphi is a free, easy to use astrology program for Palm OS devices.
It lets you create, view, organize and beam birth charts.

Delphi calculates positions of the sun, the moon, all nine planets
and the true moon node with a resolution of about one arc minute.
You have access to timezone data of about 350 locations worldwide.

Because the screens of Palm devices are so small, a static chart
drawing would not be very useful. In Delphi you can click, for
example, on a planet in a birth chart and immediately the chart
drawing will show only aspects to that planet and how strong they
are. Similarly, you can focus on specific aspects, signs or houses.

Otherwise Delphi behaves much like a standard Palm OS application:
You can organize charts in categories, sort them manually or
alphabetically, and, if your Palm device has infrared beaming
hardware, send or receive charts to/from others.

Finally, Delphi has a built in astrological clock, i.e. a chart
for now.

Download from http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29
(or from Palmgear: http://www.palmgear.com).

delphi29@excite.com





Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Subject: test 123456abcdefg
Date: Mon 9 Oct 2000 07:21:38 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@my-deja.com
Message-ID: <8rrkl0$8ev$1@nnrp1.deja.com>

test 123456abcdefg


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Subject: test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
Date: Mon 9 Oct 2000 08:30:17 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@my-deja.com
Message-ID: <8rrolq$b6p$1@nnrp1.deja.com>

test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Subject: ASTROLOGY ON PALM PILOT ? -- be amazed...
Date: Sun 22 Oct 2000 12:35:45 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.marketplace
From: delphi29@excite.com
Message-ID: <8sufu1$org$1@nnrp1.deja.com>

* Ever needed to calculate an accurate birth chart on the road
  with no PC around ?

  Then check out Delphi, a free, accurate and intuitive astrology
  program for Palm OS devices. It lets you create, view, organize
  and beam birth charts.

* Think the screen of a Palm device is too small to display
  a birth chart readably and with all the necessary information ?

  It can be done, check out the manual online to see for yourself:
  - http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/delphi.html

  Or download directly (including docs, 240K):
  - Windows: http://delphi29.tripod.com/delphi.zip
  - Mac:     http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/delphi.sit

* Need to exchange charts with others ?

  Using the infrared beamers (like TV remote controls) that
  most newer Palm devices have, you can easily and quite
  non-technically exchange birth charts with others.

* Delphi calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
  order of one arc minute. You have access to UNIX time zone data
  for about 350 locations on earth.

  Check out a detailed account of Delphi's accuracy at:
  - http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/accuracy.html


You be the judge if Delphi is fit to be used by
professionals on the road, yet...

delphi29@excite.com



--
System requirements: Any Palm OS device with Palm OS 2.0 or later,
including Handspring Visors, etc.



Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Subject: timing test
Date: Thu 29 Mar 2001 22:24:10 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3AC399CF.81C643A7@webshuttle.ch>

timing test 10:23 pm


Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
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"Discovery Disclosure (March 2001)" derived in the same fashion as described
in Appendix B of discoveries.pdf "A few new discoveries in physics".
Also published as a bitmap in the about box of the PalmOS astrology program
"Delphi" in versions 1.20 and 1.21]

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Subject: Re: Good Java Books.
Date: Thu 29 Mar 2001 22:31:36 CEST
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.java.help
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3AC39B87.92638CEF@webshuttle.ch>

For introduction, I can recommends

http://www.ibiblio.org/javafaq/books/jdr/

Subject: Re: Good Java Books.
Date: Thu 29 Mar 2001 22:32:25 CEST
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.java.help
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3AC39BB7.9E868E0D@webshuttle.ch>

http://www.ibiblio.org/javafaq/books/jdr/

> I have also been trying to get my son to learn a language and would
> appreciate book recomendations/comments on Java as a first language.
>
> Please reply directly to me as I do not read these news groups.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff.

Subject: Re: Good Java Books.
Date: Thu 29 Mar 2001 22:36:36 CEST
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.java.help
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3AC39CB4.28424705@webshuttle.ch>

> I know C/C++ and would like to learn Java, if anyone can recommend good
> teaching books as well as reference books, I would appreciate it.
>
> I have also been trying to get my son to learn a language and would
> appreciate book recomendations/comments on Java as a first language.

I can recommend "The Java Developer's Resource" by Elliote Rusty Harold,
for starting with Java. It is only about Java 1.0 and apparently out of print,
but the author promises a new edition also covering Java 2 on web site:

http://www.ibiblio.org/javafaq/books/jdr/

Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)

--
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Subject: test 63
Date: Fri 4 May 2001 00:28:27 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test.group
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <3AF1DABE.4A9D5547@webshuttle.ch>

Some text...

Alain Stalder

--

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[Hashes, timestamp (e-timestamp.com) and signature (Swisskey) of may2001.txt
"Discovery Disclosures by Alain Stalder, Collated in May 2001" as described
in Appendix B of discoveries.pdf "A few new discoveries in physics".
Also published as a bitmap in the about box of the PalmOS astrology program
"Delphi" in versions 2.00 and 2.01. Note also that the Delphi 2.01 binary
contains the MD5 and SHA1 hashes of discoveries.pdf and review.pdf.]

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MCksIGJ5IEFsYWluIFN0YWxkZXIuDQo=

Subject: Delphi 2.00 for PalmOS handhelds
Date: Sun 20 May 2001 09:55:41 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.marketplace
From: delphi29@my-deja.com (delphi29)
Message-ID: <93acb999.0105192355.eaff5bb@posting.google.com>

Delphi is a free, accurate and intuitive astrology program
for PalmOS handhelds. It lets you create, view, organize and
beam birth charts and view synastry charts.

Intuitive Use

Delphi tries to make most of the small screen that Palm devices
have. And it tries to do it in a natural, intutive way: When you
look at a chart printed on paper, you often focus your eyes onto
different objects when needed. For example, you search for the
symbol of the moon and then you look what sign it is in or what
aspects it has. Similarly you may want to focus onto trines or
want to know which signs are in the 12th house.

Delphi lets you do this almost as intuitively as you are used to:
Instead of focussing with your eyes only, you use the pen to
focus too. Thus you search for the symbol of the moon, tap on it
and immediately only aspects to the moon are shown, immediately
it is indicated how strong those aspects are and the position of
the moon is shown with more precision. Similarly, you can focus
on aspects, signs or houses.

Otherwise Delphi behaves like a standard Palm application: You
can organize charts in categories, sort them manually or
alphabetically, and, if your Palm device has infrared beaming
hardware, send or receive charts to/from others. This allows you
to exchange charts with others quickly and in quite a natural,
non-technical way.

Finally, Delphi lets you view synastry (relationship) charts;
either between two birth charts or between a birth chart and the
built-in astrological clock.

Accuracy

Delphi uses the astrolib library to calculate positions of sun,
moon, planets up to Pluto and the true moon node with an accuracy
of the order of one arc minute. Also through astrolib, you have
access to UNIX time zone data for about 350 locations world-wide,
plus about 2000 additional locations of which each one has been
assigned to one of the 350 UNIX time zone locations.

See http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/accuracy.html for a
detailed account of Delphi's accuracy, listing positions with
errors for three charts, two from the 20th century and a
historical one from the year 800, calculated using the Julian
Calendar.

You be the judge if Delphi is fit to be used by professionals on
the road, yet...

Manual

Go to http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/delphi.html to view the
manual online, or download Delphi, including the documentation,
from http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29.

New Features in Version 2.00
- Extended atlas with 2500 locations
- Color for aspects
- Uses Porphyry houses within polar circles
- astrolib is faster and can be put in flash ROM

New Features since Version 1.20
- Synastry (relationship) charts
- Less picky about manual entry of position and time zone


Hope you like it,
delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Command-Tab in HyperCard 2.4.1 / MacOS 10.1.1
Date: Mon 14 Jan 2002 14:31:33 CET
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: astalder@webshuttle.ch (Alain Stalder)
Message-ID: <8c853792.0201140531.3347c403@posting.google.com>

In MacOS X, Command-Tab seems to switch between applications.
Is there a workaround ?
(I could not find anything by searching the web and older
news posts).

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Command-Tab in HyperCard 2.4.1 / MacOS 10.1.1
Date: Sun 20 Jan 2002 09:53:22 CET
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: astalder@webshuttle.ch (Alain Stalder)
Message-ID: <8c853792.0201200053.3e008c2a@posting.google.com>

"Tom M. Witte" wrote:
> In article <8c853792.0201140531.3347c403@posting.google.com>,
>  astalder@webshuttle.ch (Alain Stalder) wrote:
>
> > In MacOS X, Command-Tab seems to switch between applications.
> > Is there a workaround ?
> > (I could not find anything by searching the web and older
> > news posts).
>
> In os 9 you could reset this using an applescript. look in the apple
> help in OS 9 classic.

In OS 9, the application switcher system extension was scriptable,
you could tell it to  "set keyboard cycling active to false".
You can still do this in the classic environment, but is has
no longer any influence (except when booting with MacOS 9).
I guess under MacOS X, the Finder or maybe the Dock would have to
be adressed. Under OS 9, one can open an application using ResEdit
and look at the "aete" resource for a list of commands that the
application understands. Using "Show Package Contents" in the
MacOS X Finder for the Dock did not reveal anything similar,
for the Finder itself, there is no such item in the pop-up menu.
Is there another way or a documentation of scriptable MacOS X
applications ?

A more general question: Is anybody using HyperCard under OS X,
or are most people still using OS 9, so that this problem is not
an issue for most people ?

Alain Stalder

Subject: freesurf test
Date: Mon 13 May 2002 21:17:18 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test.signature
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder-B8DA51.21171813052002@news.sunrise.ch>

test

--
astalder@webshuttle.ch

Subject: Re: Hypercard Shutdown Code
Date: Tue 14 May 2002 21:38:21 CEST
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hypercard
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder-CF40E8.21382114052002@news.bluewin.ch>

on mouseUp
 tell application "Finder"
  shut down
 end tell
end mouseUp

(as AppleScript script)

Alain Stalder

In article <e4d5d2fc.0203312016.2bca70a1@posting.google.com>,
biggestnerd23@yahoo.com (aaron) wrote:

> During eighth grade my friends and I enjoyed hacking each others
> hypercard stacks.  We found a program that was used to shut down the
> computer.  However we couldn't locate the exact code.
>   I narowed it down to about 75 pages and I read every line of the
> first 50 and couldn't find it. [I got my friend to print it why the
> librarian wasn't looking and he only got 50 pages]
>   Does anybody no how to shutdown the computer?

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:00:13 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-4B7BF9.09001320062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:00:25 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-02E41B.09002520062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that a large part of the document deals with astrology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:15:51 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-2FE196.09155120062002@news.sunrise.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:16:23 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-19FCA6.09162320062002@news.sunrise.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that a large part of the document deals with astrology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:26:32 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-6075A6.09263220062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:27:47 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-E52E55.09274720062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that the document explicitly discusses a number of
philosophical issues, see paragraph 4 of the abstract.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:28:24 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-16217B.09282420062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that the document explicitly discusses a number of
philosophical issues, see paragraph 4 of the abstract.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:29:21 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-81301E.09292120062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that a large part of the document deals with psychology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:30:33 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.history
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C4A25E.09303320062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that an important part of the document deals with
history, namely where the predictions corresponding to
paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below are applied
to some large scale historical events.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:30:56 CEST
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-217E7E.09305620062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that an important part of the document deals with
history, namely where the predictions corresponding to
paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below are applied
to some large scale historical events.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 09:31:42 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-E01704.09314220062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that the document contains only a single, quite
speculative direct reference to cryptography, however
its impact is potentially crucial, hence this post.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 20:43:58 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-B30478.20435820062002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <aet201$1n8q$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:

> In article <astalder-4B7BF9.09001320062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Alain Stalder  <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> >Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> >phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
>
>
> Why go looking for an explanation of something that hasn't even been
> demonstrated to exist?  Seems out of order to me.
>
> Bryan

Let me first describe what the document contains in simple
terms, before I answer the specific question:

It is a list of hypotheses that are essentially decidable
experimentally (I do not claim that they are true nor that
I have any proof for that; if I had, I would have presented
it in the paper). What the hypotheses do, however, is build
a coherent picture of many phenomena that scientists have
never been able to detect but nonetheless keep popping up
in some people's heads over and over again.

The basic idea is that there are unconscious connections
between people (maybe as suggested in the paper with a
long range and penetrating large amounts of mass, but
possibly only short range or in subliminal channels of
conversations or gestures etc.; see review.pdf in link
below) These unconscious connections build a large "brain"
(there are just a large bunch of brain cells connected
in some way). The document proposes that this "brain"
has intentions and feelings on its own, i.e. that it is
a living and at least somewhat intelligent organism on a
larger scale.

Now to the specific question: In the presented model, the
organism is alive and hence can interact actively and thus
make it a lot harder for the experimentator to find a definite
proof for some phenomena. I remember a german physicist (sorry,
I don't recall his name at the moment) who said that in his
experience such pheomena appear to be present at first, but
if one tries to reproduce things, they usually disappear so
that one is left with nothing that can be proven but still
with the impression that there is more than nothing there.

Moreover, there is up to now no exact way to measure the
content of, say, a dream and compare it to future real
events. Without that, it becomes impossible to prove
whether the content of a dream is just coincidentially
similar to future events or not. The simple astrological
model (if it is confirmed, of course), might allow to
transform dream content into numbers so that quantitative
comparisons would become possible.

Anyway, the document is no proof of anything, it is just a
list of opportunities to make experiments that could lead
to something really new - if anybody is convinced enough
that the hypotheses contain some reality to actually make
some experiments. Note that the simple astrological model of
section 2 of the document can readily be tested by anyone
by applying it to one's own family, but there are often also
psychological barriers that make this not so easy or desired.
(Of course, just because the model would fit your environement,
that would not be a proof in the strict sense, but might create
enough interest to make an experiment with a larger sample).

Alain


PS: The document is intended to be read from beginning to
end, as it builds as logically as possible from things said
previously. So, just browsing it and reading random passages
will only reveal sentences that appear to based on nothing
at all, while in reality they are often as closely as
possible based on previous hypotheses. The docment is very
densly written, almost nothing is ever repeated.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Thu 20 Jun 2002 23:16:41 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C99106.23164120062002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3D11FA67.10A4C6B4@null.net>, "Douglas A. Gwyn"
<DAGwyn@null.net> wrote:

> Alain Stalder wrote:
> > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
>
> An explanation is not needed until the phenomena have been
> convincingly demonstrated.  If you could demonstrate them,
> then why not take the Randi challenge and collect big bucks.

Let me answer with my reply to a similar question at
sci.physics. Since your reply does not concern the
reference to cryptography in the discoveries document,
I think the discussion should go to sci.physics.

Alain

--
In article <aet201$1n8q$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:
> In article <astalder-4B7BF9.09001320062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Alain Stalder  <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> >Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> >phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
>
>
> Why go looking for an explanation of something that hasn't even been
> demonstrated to exist?  Seems out of order to me.
>
> Bryan

Let me first describe what the document contains in simple
terms, before I answer the specific question:

It is a list of hypotheses that are essentially decidable
experimentally (I do not claim that they are true nor that
I have any proof for that; if I had, I would have presented
it in the paper). What the hypotheses do, however, is build
a coherent picture of many phenomena that scientists have
never been able to detect but nonetheless keep popping up
in some people's heads over and over again.

The basic idea is that there are unconscious connections
between people (maybe as suggested in the paper with a
long range and penetrating large amounts of mass, but
possibly only short range or in subliminal channels of
conversations or gestures etc.; see review.pdf in link
below) These unconscious connections build a large "brain"
(there are just a large bunch of brain cells connected
in some way). The document proposes that this "brain"
has intentions and feelings on its own, i.e. that it is
a living and at least somewhat intelligent organism on a
larger scale.

Now to the specific question: In the presented model, the
organism is alive and hence can interact actively and thus
make it a lot harder for the experimentator to find a definite
proof for some phenomena. I remember a german physicist (sorry,
I don't recall his name at the moment) who said that in his
experience such pheomena appear to be present at first, but
if one tries to reproduce things, they usually disappear so
that one is left with nothing that can be proven but still
with the impression that there is more than nothing there.

Moreover, there is up to now no exact way to measure the
content of, say, a dream and compare it to future real
events. Without that, it becomes impossible to prove
whether the content of a dream is just coincidentially
similar to future events or not. The simple astrological
model (if it is confirmed, of course), might allow to
transform dream content into numbers so that quantitative
comparisons would become possible.

Anyway, the document is no proof of anything, it is just a
list of opportunities to make experiments that could lead
to something really new - if anybody is convinced enough
that the hypotheses contain some reality to actually make
some experiments. Note that the simple astrological model of
section 2 of the document can readily be tested by anyone
by applying it to one's own family, but there are often also
psychological barriers that make this not so easy or desired.
(Of course, just because the model would fit your environement,
that would not be a proof in the strict sense, but might create
enough interest to make an experiment with a larger sample).

Alain


PS: The document is intended to be read from beginning to
end, as it builds as logically as possible from things said
previously. So, just browsing it and reading random passages
will only reveal sentences that appear to based on nothing
at all, while in reality they are often as closely as
possible based on previous hypotheses. The docment is very
densly written, almost nothing is ever repeated.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Fri 21 Jun 2002 02:06:13 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-894701.09270820062002@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

--

(Note that a large part of the document deals with astrology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)


Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: the full document has also been posted to
    news://alt.binaries.misc

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Fri 21 Jun 2002 04:42:04 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-F63C76.04420421062002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3D124653.8020202@attbi.com>, "Robert J. Kolker"
<bobkolker@attbi.com> wrote:

> Alain Stalder wrote:
>
>
> > It is a list of hypotheses that are essentially decidable
> > experimentally (I do not claim that they are true nor that
> > I have any proof for that; if I had, I would have presented
> > it in the paper). What the hypotheses do, however, is build
> > a coherent picture of many phenomena that scientists have
> > never been able to detect but nonetheless keep popping up
> > in some people's heads over and over again.
>
>
> What happens in "peoples heads" are mostly delusion and subjective clap
> trap. What happens Out There is what counts. Out There is where the
> facts are. In Here is epiphenomenal balderdash.
>
>
> >
> > The basic idea is that there are unconscious connections
> > between people (maybe as suggested in the paper with a
> > long range and penetrating large amounts of mass, but
> > possibly only short range or in subliminal channels of
> > conversations or gestures etc.; see review.pdf in link
> > below) These unconscious connections build a large "brain"
> > (there are just a large bunch of brain cells connected
> > in some way). The document proposes that this "brain"
> > has intentions and feelings on its own, i.e. that it is
> > a living and at least somewhat intelligent organism on a
> > larger scale.
>
>
> There is not an iota of solid evidence supporting this assertion. All
> atempts to prove psi phenomena exist have come to naught.
>
> Bob Kolker
>
>

For one, I agree completely that only what happens Out There
is what counts in the end for physics. But I am also saying
quite clearly in the document (section 1.4) that previous
experiments trying to prove any kind of "psi phenomena" have
not been done properly to test the specific hypotheses I give.

I do not pretend to have a detailed overview about previous
experiments. However this is my impression:
Typically probands have not been separated sufficiently from
the rest of the world and most notably from the experimentators.
Sometimes maybe the sex of the probands has been noted, but not
of the experimentators. As I mention in the document in
section 1.4, such experiments have to be done very carefully
and one has first to exclude all other reasons of influence,
similar to what R.P. Feynman writes in "Cargo Cult Science"
about how to conduct experiments with rats in a maze.
To put it quite bluntly, previous experiments trying to
prove or disprove "psi phenomena" have not been done well
enough to detect the proposed effects.

General arguments will not stick. You will have either to
provide evidence (i.e. the results of previous experiments)
that explicitly prove the hypotheses mentioned in the document
false or else make new experiments that test specifically for
these hypotheses. Just giving general arguments of the kind
"previous experiments have yielded nothing" will not do here.
They simply do not apply to the hypotheses I make. (If one just
superficially reads over the document, they might appear to
do so, but not if things are looked at closely.)

Alain

Subject: A simple model of astrology
Date: Fri 21 Jun 2002 05:43:15 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A95826.05431521062002@news.bluewin.ch>

In the document

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

I give a very simple model of astrology based on the four
elements and their transitions. It reproduces many predictions
of psychological astrology quite well. This makes it an ideal
candidate for experimental tests of astrology with the potential
to convince even the most sceptic scientists (only if the model
is confirmed, of course).

The model in essence (for details see the document):
Meanings associated with star signs derive from transitions
between the four elements. For fire, for example, the three
fire signs correspond to different stages in the life of
a fire. Aries (the first fire sign) is a fire that just
starts to burn, i.e. Aries is composed mainly of earth
(the wood that starts to burn) and only a little bit of
air (the smoke that emerges). Leo is composed of roughly
equal amounts of earth and air, corresponding to a fire
that is burning fully. Sagittarius is described by a
fire that is about to end.

The element earth is associated with the human body, as it
is women who create life like earth produces plants that feed
animals and humans. Accordingly, during a fire, the mortal,
human body is symbolically transformed into something eternal,
namely knowledge (air) that can be transmitted to the next
generation an thus becomes immortal. Hence the transition
from Aries via Leo to Sagittarius symbolically describes the
transition from animal to human to god. During that process,
the need for keeping things secret decreases (as one is
symbolically no longer mortal and hence does not need to
protect anything). The wound of Leo (e.g. Parsival) and
Sagittarius (e.g. Chiron) also shows in the fact that the
fire burns the human body and hence hurts it.

The document gives specific models for all four elements and
also a lot more. It is also proposed that one of the meanings
of planets is that they influence how one behaves relative
to different classes of people: Sun towards/as father, moon
towards/as mother, Venus towards women of roughly the same
age group (incl. lovers), Mars towards men of roughly the
same age group.

There is a lot in the document, including a lot of opportunities
to look at current psychological astrology from a different,
more analytical prespective (I have Pluto in Virgo, so this
maybe the first big thing you see from this generation).
And, as I said, the model is simple and specific enough to
be verified (or falsified) experimentally in quantitative
scientific experiments.

Alain

(I am a 35 year old physicist who lives in Zurich,
Switzerland; see web site indicated below for more info).

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Fri 21 Jun 2002 07:15:07 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-5D6CA2.07150721062002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <nFfQ8.1041$iG4.318@nwrddc04.gnilink.net>, "Joseph Martin
III" <joseph.martin54@verizon.net> wrote:

> Something seems amiss.....I can't find any actual experiment.......
>
> Don't think this will be making the pages of Science anytime soon.......

This is a misunderstanding. It is a theoretical paper, not
an experimental one. It simply lists a number of hypotheses
that can be decided experimentally in a quantitative way.
The burden of proof lies within experiment, not theory.
Experiment (nature) will show which hypotheses (if any)
have anything to do with reality.

The proposed model would give a simple and understandable
explanation for things that C.G. Jung named "collective
unconscious" or "sychronicity". In that sense, the model
deserves a closer look, at least from some psychologists.

I am a physicist; in the end what counts will be whether
these hypotheses are confirmed in a quantitative way or not.

Alain

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Fri 21 Jun 2002 08:19:34 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-087B0C.08193421062002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3D11FA07.13DB61D3@null.net>, "Douglas A. Gwyn"
<DAGwyn@null.net> wrote:

> Alain Stalder wrote:
> > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
> > emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
> > with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
> > and through the earth.
>
> I think we're all bosons on this bus.

I guess this is also an issue more related to physics,
but here is my take anyway:

During a solar eclipse, the moon is between earth and
sun. I am assuming that in a quantum theory of gravity,
forces would be mediated by virtual gravitons (if that
disturbs you, simply replace the three astronomical
objects by electrically charged balls so that the
electrostatic force is mediated by virtual photons).

Now, it is an experimental fact (since Newton) that
the moon does not shield the gravitational force
between earth and sun in any way. In other words,
a graviton couples to one particle on the sun
and to another one on earth, but couples to nothing
in between, neither to matter in the sun, the moon
or earth. Compared to waves, i.e. to real particles,
that are normally absorbed to some degree in matter,
this behaviour is completely different. Of course
I am aware that the simple picture of a localized
particle "flying" from sun to earth does not
correspond to the reality of quantum mechanical
calculations, but the thing is still odd.

In the discoveries document I also suspect a connection
of these things to the problem of measurement in
quantum mechanics, but there things less concrete
(and also not labelled as such in the document).

Alain

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Discovery Disclosure (clarifications)
Date: Sat 22 Jun 2002 06:14:27 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-9DDEEB.06142722062002@news.bluewin.ch>

My first post of last thursday has lead to some
misunderstandings. Hence some clarifications:

- the document is just a bunch of hypotheses, there is
  no proof for anything, just input for experimentators
  (i.e. it is a theoretical paper, not an experimental one)
- essentially all hypotheses are simple and specific
  enough to be quantitatively verified or falsified
  (i.e. it this is science)
- general remarks of the kind "previous experiments
  have yielded no evidence for telepathy/precognition/etc."
  do not apply; the hypotheses are more specific than what
  has been tested experimentally, previous experiments
  were not specific enough to decide whether the proposed
  effects actually exist
- the document is densely written with lots of attention
  to detail and hypotheses generally build up on previous
  hypotheses; hence the document is only accessible if it
  is read carefully and essentially from beginning to end

Have a nice summer!

Alain

--

Full document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf

Web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

Subject: Discovery Disclosure (clarifications)
Date: Sat 22 Jun 2002 09:44:47 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-CE033A.09444722062002@news.bluewin.ch>

My first post of last thursday has lead to some
misunderstandings. Hence some clarifications:

- the document is just a bunch of hypotheses, there is
  no proof for anything, just input for experimentators
  (i.e. it is a theoretical paper, not an experimental one)
- essentially all hypotheses are simple and specific
  enough to be quantitatively verified or falsified
  (i.e. it this is science)
- general remarks of the kind "previous experiments
  have yielded no evidence for telepathy/precognition/etc."
  do not apply; the hypotheses are more specific than what
  has been tested experimentally, previous experiments
  were not specific enough to decide whether the proposed
  effects actually exist
- the document is densely written with lots of attention
  to detail and hypotheses generally build up on previous
  hypotheses; hence the document is only accessible if it
  is read carefully and essentially from beginning to end

Have a nice summer!

Alain

--

Full document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf

Web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure (clarifications)
Date: Sun 23 Jun 2002 07:32:38 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-EEFC49.07323823062002@news.sunrise.ch>

Thank you very much for asking such specific questions.
I will try to answer them as specifically and honestly
as I can.

But first let me present myself: I am a 35 year old Swiss
physicist, I have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology (ETHZ) in Zurich, where I have
specialized in experimental physics. After that I have worked for
5 years at the IBM Zurich Research Lab in Ruschlikon for my PhD.
There I have built a combined scanning tunneling and atomic force
microscope (STM/AFM) that operates in ultra-high vacuum and is
cooled with liquid nitrogen, and I have also made experiments
with quantum effects in conductance when breaking nano-meter
sized metallic contacts. After that I have worked another 1.5
years at McGill University in Montreal at the same stuff, see:
http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/SPM/atomic
(my web site has a complete CV plus a list of my publications).

In article <af2718$32hi$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:

> In article <astalder-9DDEEB.06142722062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Alain Stalder  <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> >My first post of last thursday has lead to some
> >misunderstandings. Hence some clarifications:
> >
> >- the document is just a bunch of hypotheses, there is
> >  no proof for anything, just input for experimentators
> >  (i.e. it is a theoretical paper, not an experimental one)
>
>
> Yet it starts out by claiming the existence of a whole bunch of
> phenomena.
> Without a shred of evidence, to boot.  You keep talking about the
> "observed effect"s, as if their existence is established.  Then you
> babble
> about what could produce the detailed characteristics of this supposedly
> purely hypothetical effect.  Make up your mind.  Are these "effects"
> purely hypothetical, or are they observed?  If the former, why did you
> choose these particularly hypotheses to explore?  If the latter, where's
> the evidence?

The short answer is that I really have not made up my mind. Let
me give you my experiences in detail. My main experience is based
on an unfulfilled love. It appeared to me that I could feel
something (sometimes very strongly) if I looked into the
direction in which she lived. It also appeared to me that usually
late in the evening, I could feel her less strongly than before,
but if I would lay down or only put my head into a horizontal
position, I could feel her more strongly again (H2b). I cannot
reproduce these effects any more because this "relation" is
(luckily, I must say) a thing of the past. I have had some other
similar experiences with other women, but then only at short
range (several meters, not more). It appears to me that feelings
are a lot harder to remember than pictures. So, even though I do
remember that feelings were very strong and in the past my
experience indicated that I could feel her across large
distances, the mere memory of these feelings is now not
convincing to me.

Generally, I must say that, suppose somebody succeeded in making
a perfect robotic copy of your most significant other, that
looked and acted exactly the same, I would not be sure that you
would not be able to tell the difference. Or, if a couple has an
argument, then I am not so sure that it makes no difference
whether one of the two just goes to the next room or else drives
a few miles away. I get the impression that in the first case,
the tension in the appartment would remain stronger. (Of course,
one has to be very careful here. A person in the next room is not
totally acoustically separated, even sounds and vibrations that
are too weak to be consciously registered, may still be detected
unconsciously in the brain.)

I think, I chose to follow these hypotheses essentially because I
wanted to understand why she did not want to be with me. This was
also my motivation to take another look at astrology, namely
because when I knew her, she was interested in astrology. Already
in 1983, I took a look at astrology, but quickly concluded that
astrological texts were simply written in a way that for
anybody more than 50% of statements would apply.

What made me change my mind gradually was the following idea: If
there are unconscious long-range interactions between people,
this builds essentially a large brain. Then maybe that brain
influences the thinking of individual people. In other words,
astrology does not have to have anything to do with the stars in
the sky. Later on (actually only in the brief self-review of the
document, http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf) I noticed
that it is not necessary to have long-range interactions between
people. All you need is some unconscious way to exchange birth
dates or planetary positions between people. And that can be done
by known unconscious channels that always exist in human
interaction (intonation, gestures, etc.)

In that sense, it might be best to ignore section 1 of the
document (at least for the moment) and concentrate on section 2
which gives a quite down-to-earth and very simple model of
astrology. For example, suppose there is a man who had the sun in
Aries, Mars in Leo and Venus in Sagittarius at birth. Then
hypothesis H15f combined with H10 say that that man would
generally keep things secret towards his father and, if he is
himself a father, towards his children. Towards male friends of
roughly the same age, he would typically wage carefully what to
tell them, whereas towards his wife he would typically be quite
frank. Now, this is stuff that can readily be verified or
falsified by simply asking lots of people and noting the results.
And, if predictions fit the personal experiences of a scientist
with his/her surrounding, this might also provide motivation for
sceptical scientists to do such experiments.

Of course I am aware that such experiments would a priori not be
physical experiments, but psychological ones. Only if the
astrological structures were confirmed, one would then have to
look for the reasons why they exist. Only then potentially
physics would be affected, but not necessarily.


> >- essentially all hypotheses are simple and specific
> >  enough to be quantitatively verified or falsified
> >  (i.e. it this is science)
>
> Hypothesis "H1  Human brains are emotionally interconnected."  In what
> sense is this well defined?  What measurements would demonstrate this
> effect?  In what manner are they interconnected?  OBVIOUSLY, any test
> purporting to demonstrate the existence of such a phenomenon would have
> to
> be double blind, but all you offer is your assurance that you can feel
> such a thing.  In short, you offer purely subjective, unverifiable
> evidence of an ill-defined hypothesis.  If you think this is science, you
> might want to try another field.

The sentence "human brains are emotionally interconnected" is
well defined if you measure activity directly in the brain. As
far as I know, areas that are active when there are feelings can
be determined, at least to some degree. What one would have to
look for then is for correlations between the activities in the
brains of both probands, depending on the relative orientations
of their heads. NMR detectors, for example, keep getting smaller.
As far as I know, they might become portable within a few years.


> >- the document is densely written with lots of attention
> >  to detail and hypotheses generally build up on previous
> >  hypotheses; hence the document is only accessible if it
> >  is read carefully and essentially from beginning to end
> >
>
>
> If it builds on itself in the manner you describe, then the obvious fact
> that the opening foundations range from shaky to nonexistent saves me the
> trouble of reading the whole rambling mess.
>
> "The main text is written in the style of a scientific publication."  No,
> it's written in a bizarre parody of that style.  You seem to think that
> using big words and numbering your hypotheses is all you need to do to
> capture the style.
>
> "Separate them as far as possible from any complex organic life forms."
> All organic life forms are complex, and they're everywhere on the earth's
> surface.  So evidently you need to go to a sterile environmnent
> off-planet.
>
> "Instead of trying to prove something as a whole, physicists typically
> split complex questions to nature up into several simple questions that
> nature is then force to answer with yes or no, but nothing in between."
> Clearly, if you can make a statement like this, you've never done
> science.
> The discoveries happen what you ask nature a yes/no question, and it
> answers, "Splunge!"
>
> Bryan

I agree that the style in part of the document is to some degree
a parody of a scientific publication. Let me explain why. The
supposed astrological structure in peoples psyches, if it
existed, would have been made up essentially by normal people,
not scientists, i.e. by people who do often not think strictly
logically. Hence the astrological structure would only be
partially logical, but would have exceptions. This would be
similar to a human language which has rules (grammar) that allow
to make some predictions, but has exceptions. I have tried to
essentially follow the "grammar" of the proposed astrological
structures given by the stated hypotheses, but implicitly there
are a number of additional hypothese *between* the explicitly
stated ones. These would all have to be tested experimentally,
one-by-one.

It appears to me, that if the basic assumption were true that
there are astrological structures in human behaviour that come
from man-made believes, then the structure could not be fully
logical and hence its description would have exceptions too. I
admit though, that these exceptions should probably be worked out
more clearly than I did in the document.

There are several degrees of complexity in animals. Roughly their
complexity (in size of brain or size of DNA) has increased during
evolution. What I meant by by "complex life forms" was certainly
humans and other mammals. Whether smaller animals disturb much,
is difficult to tell. I am just suggesting to exclude as many
possible disturbances as possible. I think there are some rare
(and maybe only small) places on earth where practically no life
except maybe insects and simple plants exists.

I have quite a bit of experience with doing experiments, with how
difficult it is to get a definite answer. What I was pointing at,
is that typically during an experiment, you see something that
you do not know where it is coming from. Then you start to change
things in the setup. You typically change only one or a few
things and look what happens. What you do not do, is change lots
of things at once, because you would then not be able to get much
information out of the changed result. That is what I meant by
"divide and conquer". You make one change, get hopefully a
"something/nothing changed" out of this and then try the next
thing. That way you construct an answer to a more complex
question out of a bunch of answers to simple questions.

Please ask more specific questions if other things in the
document or in this posting are unclear and point out errors. I
will try to answer questions as precisely and openly as possible.
(I know that there are many people flooding this newsgroup with
weird stuff that only uses scientific terms but is quite far from
being science. Also scientists sometimes at some point in their
lives search something maybe "mystical" in astrology, etc.,
something that by definition cannot be investigated
scientifically. In contrast, I specifically tried (maybe not
fully successfully) to go into these fields as a scientist, first
primarily to understand a woman, but then returned without the
woman but with a few clues at what might be some new laws, at
least laws of psychology.)

Alain

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure (clarifications)
Date: Mon 24 Jun 2002 10:41:28 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-ACC981.10412724062002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <af1gd4$848$1@paris.btinternet.com>,
 "Franz Heymann" <Franz.Heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote:

> If you have something to say to this ng, say it here.  Any URL which has
> any connotation to philosophy in its title will, from sad but regular
> experience, contain no physics.
>
> Franz Heymann

As requested, I will say things directly here.

Concretely I will do the following:

1. Quickly state a simple model of astrology, which is based on
   the philosophy of Aristotle
2. Make concrete proposals for experiments to test the model
3. Discuss under which circumstances, if the model was confirmed,
   it would require new physics


1. A simple model of astrology

Aristotle's theory of the four elements builds up on Plato's view
of a world made of four elements fire, earth, water and air. Now,
clearly the physical world is not literally made of these four
"elements". Aristotle, however, gives a more abstract definition
of the elements which, as I will propose, appears to be still
visible in today's psychology of people.

In Book II of Aristotle's text "On Generation and Corruption"

http://www.spaceship-earth.de/OrigLit/Aristotle/gener_corr_2_ii.html

he defines elements to be made of touchable qualities. In some
sense that is maybe even a viable way to see the world. The most
immediate contact with the world for each individual is to touch
something and it is also how babies initially mostly explore the
world. Anyway, Aristotle identifies different opposites that can
be distinguished by touching, like warm/cold, dry/moist,
rough/smooth, fine/coarse. Then he argues (probably not entirely
logically) that all opposites except the first two pairs are just
variants of the first two but nothing fundamentally different.

Since these two pairs of opposites can be composed in 4 ways, he
concludes that there are four elements and labels them as:

fire  = warm + dry
earth = cold + dry
water = cold + moist
air   = warm + moist

Based on this theory he argues that elements can be transformed
into each other, but more quickly if only one quality is changed
at a time. For example, fire can be transformed directly into
earth and air, but only indirectly into water.

Now to the specific astrological model. The zodiac divides the
ecliptic into 12 equally spaced "star signs". They come in the
following order (starting with the spring equinox):

Aries (fire)
Taurus (earth)
Geminini (air)
Cancer (water)
Leo (fire)
Virgo (earth)
Libra (air)
Scorpio (water)
Sagittarius (fire)
Capricorn (earth)
Aquarius (air)
Pisces (water)

My main hypothesis is that each group of 3 signs that are
assigned to an element (=E) can be described by the transition
from one element A via E to B. The first sign (in the order of
the zodiac) is composed mainly of A and only slightly of B, the
middle one of roughly equal amounts of A and B, the last one
mainly of B and only slightly of A.

Water, for example, can melt from ice ("earth"=A) via water (E)
and then evaporate to air (B). Hence, Cancer would essentially be
made of earth and only slightly of air, Scorpio of roughly equal
amounts of earth and air, etc.

Now, let me describe how this can lead to specific and
quantitatively verifiable statements. A lot of ancient greek
philosophy is based on immediate experience of nature (as
exemplified above by Aristotle's definition of an "element"). Two
blocks of ice do not mix their water, only if they both melt, the
water mixes. If you take a superficial and direct view at the
world, this is similar to what happens to the water of a river,
as follows. Ice is found mainly in the mountains (at least that
was so in ancient Greece), where rivers originate. Small rivers
from different sources mix together into bigger rivers (and later
they flow all together into the sea from where some water then
eventually evaporates again).

Now to the symbolic content of this: Psychologically, people can
be more or less ready to exchange private information with other
people. Some people limit their exchanges to only a few good
friends, others are a lot more open. Consequently, one almost
logical consequence of the above hypothesis would be that people
who were born when the sun was in Cancer, would tend to keep
their private lifes to themselves, to inform maybe only a few
very good friends and family (corresponding to the small amount
of air) about the things that really matter to them. Protection
would be important to them, having their own house to protect
them might be important, etc.

The United States of America, for example, have the sun in Cancer
(4th of July, 1776). Protection of the country is a very
important issue in the USA. There are several large government
institutions that have the task to protect America. People who
live in the USA do generally exchange very little information
with people living outside of the USA. US television deals mostly
with internal affairs.

The discoveries document at my web site is more densely written
than this text and thus indicates a lot more associations of the
kind above that are made with the four elements. However, I hope
that this text has explained the way of thinking sufficiently so
that somebody interested to take a closer look at the discoveries
document would be able to follow most associations.

In my personal experience, the model fits a lot more things that
one could possibly expect from such a simple model. I am an
experimental physicist, so I have some experience of when an
effect is real. There are so many attempts that have tried to
prove some "paranormal" phenomena based on results that maybe
deviated only by two standard deviations or so from what would be
expected on average. In my personal experience, the astrological
model fits significantly better than that. But, of course, a
quantitative scientific proof is still required, also to convince
*me* fully.


2. Concrete proposals for testing the model

Concentrating only on the sun sign (i.e. the sign that the sun
was in when one was born) will probably not be sufficient to
prove the correctness of the model, since there are a few more
astrological factors that influence human behaviour.

This is proposed to be the most important one:
Different astrological planets* influence how one is towards
different kinds of people. The sun how one is towards the father
or as a father, the moon how one is towards the mother or as a
mother, Mercury how one is towards syblings, Mars and Venus how
one is towards men resp. women of roughly the same age group
(that are not syblings), the latter explicitly includes male and
female lovers.

* Astrological planets are the objects that move relative to the
fixed stars seen from the earth, i.e. not only the astronomical
planets (except earth) but also sun and moon.

So I propose to take a large sample of families (say, at least
tens of thousands) and to ask each member individually about how
they percieve how the other members behave relative to them and
also how they themselves behave relative to them.

I guess that that would probably be sufficient to prove the
essential correctness of the model.

But in case it is not, here are some proposed refinements:

a) The ascendent is believed to be the superficial appearance of
   somebody, people who do not know each other well often rather
   perceive the ascendent. However in families that should
   probably mostly not apply much.
b) In more extreme emotional circumstances first sun and then
   moon (the conscious resp. unconscious) self are believed to
   be perceived more clearly.
c) The time the questionaries were filled out should be noted.
   The present position of the astrological planets is
   believed to influence human behaviour too (e.g. when the
   moon is currently in Cancer, a mother tends to be more like
   Cancer towards her children than ususal). People may base
   their answers to some degree on recent memories which might
   skew the results.

If you want to get an impression of whether there is anything to
the proposed model, you might try to do this experiment within
your own family. Go to http://www.astro.com to calculate birth
charts (links "Free Charts", then "Chart drawing"). Please be
aware that some relations between family members are sometimes
not so harmonic, there may also be suppressed conflicts present.
Applying the model might trigger such things to come to the
surface. Please be careful.


3. Possible implications on physics

Suppose in the following that the model presented above has
essentially been confirmed in a quantitative way such that the
large majority of scientists has been convinced.

Clearly, the actual planets and stars in the sky could not be
directly responsible for the correctness of the model, as
follows. Due to the precession of the earth's axis (with a period
of about 26000 years) somebody who was born at the beginning of
spring is considered Aries by astrology, but astronomically had
the sun within the stars of the astronomical constellation of
Pisces. Furthermore, astronomical constellations are far from
being precisely 1/12 of the zodiac big. On top of that different
cultures (e.g. China) have completely different ways to combine
stars into constellations and also have different astrological
systems.

This would suggest strongly that the correctness of the model had
its immediate source in human culture, in people's minds, but not
in nature. (Consequently, the above model would only apply to
people that live in a culture that descends from ancient Greece,
i.e. Europe and its former colonies, a large part of the former
Soviet Union and the arabic world).

Hence there would have to be some way by which people
unconsciously exchange information about their birth dates (or
directly about planetary positions). Individual brains would then
unconsciously influence individual behaviour towards other
people, following some program that would correspond to the
astrological model.

As far as I can see, the confirmation of the model alone would
not necessarily require any new physics (information can be
hidden in intonation or gestures etc.). It cannot be excluded
that the search for the mechanism by which the astrological
information is exchanged would lead to the requirement of new
physics, but at the moment there is no immediate indication for
that.

Of course, some people might be interested to take more chances
already now, before the model is eventually confirmed. In that
sense maybe the more far fetched hypotheses I make about
long-range permanent interactions between people might provide
some inspiration for future theories. But, of course, it is a
matter of taste how far ahead one likes think. And the farther
ahead one thinks, the smaller typically the chances are to be
right.

Alain

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure
Date: Mon 15 Jul 2002 00:26:58 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-0FA368.22040714072002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <astalder-894701.09270820062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
[snip]
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
[snip]

Any feedback to the document ?

I suspect that the way the original post was formulated
could have made it difficult to recognize the direct
relation to psychological astrology - so let me rephrase
the essential message:

The document linked above presents a simple model of astrology
which is based on the philosophy of Aristotle and yet reproduces
many predictions of psychological astrology, but in a more
structured way that lends itself better for quantitative
verification. One crucial hypothesis is that each group of three
signs assigned to an element can be described by the transition
between three elements. For fire, for example, the main picture
is wood (earth) burning (fire) to smoke (air). Aries is proposed
to consist mainly of earth, whereas Leo would be composed of
about equal amounts of earth and air and Sagittarius mainly of
air. The wound that is found in the mythology that psychological
astrology assigns to Leo and Sagittarius would then correspond to
the burning of the wood that transforms the human mortal body
(earth) by the imaginary power of fire into knowledge (air) that
can be transferred to the next generation and thus becomes
immortal. Consequently, several other properties that are
commonly associated with these three fire signs emerge: The more
immortal one is, the more time one has to think instead of
acting, the more one can afford to be open towards others,
and more predictions (see document).

In case you prefer to contact me privately instead of posting
a reply, my PGP public key can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feedback/200206/index.html

Alain Stalder

Subject: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Fri 2 Aug 2002 11:04:12 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-6C7119.11041202082002@news.bluewin.ch>

This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":

I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):


Welcome to exactphilosophy.net

This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.

Background

This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.

I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.

Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.

Discoveries

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

About me

I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Fri 2 Aug 2002 11:04:58 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-2B7ACC.11045802082002@news.bluewin.ch>

This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":

I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):


Welcome to exactphilosophy.net

This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.

Background

This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.

I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.

Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.

Discoveries

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

About me

I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Fri 2 Aug 2002 11:06:30 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A4D0B1.11063002082002@news.bluewin.ch>

This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":

I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):


Welcome to exactphilosophy.net

This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.

Background

This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.

I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.

Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.

Discoveries

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

About me

I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Fri 2 Aug 2002 11:08:41 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-73D00D.11084102082002@news.bluewin.ch>

This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":

I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):


Welcome to exactphilosophy.net

This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.

Background

This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.

I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.

Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.

Discoveries

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

About me

I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Fri 2 Aug 2002 11:09:17 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A0C186.11091702082002@news.bluewin.ch>

This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":

I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):


Welcome to exactphilosophy.net

This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.

Background

This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.

I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.

Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.

Discoveries

Abstract

A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.

Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.

The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.

Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.

About me

I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Sun 4 Aug 2002 07:31:08 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-F100CB.07310704082002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3D4A9951.4302CE87@hate.spam.net>,
 Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote:

> Alain Stalder wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
> > superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
> > like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
> > page.
> [snip]
>
> Crap is crap.  Gilt-edging makes it gilded crap.
>
> > Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
> > different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts,
>
> In other words, crap.
>
> > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > interconnected.
> [snip]
>
> Crap.  Was there a disturbance in the Force when the Nazi's
> exterminated 11 million human brains in their concentration camps?
> Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.  Napolean's ill-fated march into
> Russia?  The Cambodian Khmer Rouge doing a little local socialist
> purification?
>
> Star Trek "science" is pathetic.  Star Wars religion is no better and
> no more self-consistent.

Maybe this little joke helps...

I am talking a walk at night when I see Al who is standing close
to a lamp post and is looking down at the ground, as if he is
looking for something.
- Hey Al, what are you looking for ?
- I lost my watch.
- Where did you loose it ?
- Well, back there, in that dark alley.
- But, why aren't you looking for it there ?
- There is more light here.

In my opinion this says three things:
a) In the light you can find nothing new.
b) In the dark the chances are too small to find something new,
   and you might even get lost.
c) Hence you have into the twilight, grab something there and
   then bring it back into the light to examine it carefully.

Let me say it once more, and quite clearly: Only what is
experimentally verifiable in an exact, quantitative way, will
make it into science. Admissible theories are everything that:
a) does not contradict previous experiments
b) is specific enough to be experimentally verified/falsified

Note that a new theory may supersede a previous theory by making
different predictions for a range which previous experiments did
not cover.

Regards,
Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Sun 4 Aug 2002 07:33:00 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A0C45A.07330004082002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <aieict$1nqg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
 bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:

> I take it, then, that you still haven't done that double-blind test.
>
> Bryan

It is common in most parts of physics that the people who make
new theories are not the same who test them experimentally. As
far as I know, in most universities, people already decide when
studying physics whether to become an experimental or a
theoretical physicist. To put it quite bluntly, nobody ever asked
Einstein to verify General Relativity, even if it was quite far
fetched at that time and very difficult to verify since
gravitation is such a weak force.

So, the stage is open for anybody interested in making a few new
experiments. Of course there is some risk, nobody ever knows for
sure what will happen until nature is asked directly, but there
is opportunity. Everybody is the smith of his or her own luck...

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Sun 4 Aug 2002 10:06:31 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-6AC20F.10063104082002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <aifo01$otu$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
 "Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:

> Hi Alain,
>
> Recently one of the brain-dead sci.physics group asked me
> if I knew who you were but did not say why. I knew I saw
> your name before. You shold likely be mentioning this over
> on alt.tarot and so forth. I have not seen anyone except one
> person talk about astrology over here. I know nothing about
> it. Galileo and Newton were also pseudo-scientists before
> they became famous. Until something is widely accepted
> everyone is quick to trash anything new. Quantum mechanics
> is the current target for abuse - but if it was not that it would
> be something else. That is all there is to explain things at
> the micoscopic level and if something is not fully understood
> it is only natural to point out something in science that
> is not fully understood that might explain it. I think the truth
> is no one will fund research into these new areas and when
> an independent (like a clerk at a Patent Office) comes along
> with an idea they trash it as 'pseudo'. Likewise there aren't
> many other people qualified to evaluate a lot of ideas and
> the ones that are qualified have their own interests/agenda.
> It appears today it is not good enough to simply have a good
> idea - even a physicst has to PROMOTE it. Like with a book.
>
>
> Mike Dubbeld

Hi Mike,

Thank you very much for your post; here are some thoughts and
references related to the issues risen:

Many early physicists like e.g. Kepler did some astrology,
although it may be argued that they did it also for political
reasons to some degree. Kepler published at least one book about
astrology and introduced quite a few new ideas into the field.

In 1952, the famous Swiss psychologist C.G. Jung published an
article with the title "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting
Principle" [in The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche,
Princeton 1969], in collaboration with Wolfgang Pauli, the
physicist who got the Nobel Prize for proposing the the exclusion
principle for Fermions and who also proposed the Neutrino.
Although I have only very recently read that article, it already
brings quantum mechanics, depth psychology with its archetypal
pictures, telepathy, precognition and astrology together, paired
with the strange things that happen when one tries to find direct
proof for such things.

The "acausal connecting principle" that appears to be not
completely bound by time and space, ressembles very much quantum
mechanical correlations, which became most prominent with the
Gedankenexperiment of Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen (EPR) in
conjunction with the violation of the Bell Equations that exclude
practically all local deterministic theories (but not non-local
ones). Something that appears to happen often in experiments, is
that initially an effect seems to be present, but as soon as
numbers go towards becoming really statistically convincing, the
effect disappears again. As a meta-experiment, this might be
significant, although one has to be very careful here, because
people might report only experiments in which that happened and
discard others. If you speak some german, the document "Die 1 und
die 2" (The 1 and the 2) by Werner Held might be interesting to
read. It is about the same topics, gives a good overview about
these and more recent works in that area, and it is also
philosophically quite deep, dealing with dualities in principle,
like in self/world, conscious/unconscious, etc:

http://people.freenet.de/soleil7/Texte.htm

I have noticed too that qualified people have their own agendas,
but I also think it is more true for older, already established
people, not so much for young people who are more eager and open
to try something new. On the other hand, I am also providing a
platform for established people to put the stuff they did into a
perspective that has the chance to be scientifically accepted.

There are quite a few astrologers with university degrees in
psychology etc. with deep and broad knowledge of psychology,
history and philosophy who recognize astrological connections to
forces on the human psyche. At the moment astrology is more a
craft than a science, in the way that there are experts who can
apply it, but are not well able to express or explain it in a way
that is understandable to others, nor do they themselves fully
understand what they know. A smith does not have to be a
physicist or a chemist in order to make, say, a sword. He can
teach his craft to others, but not explain analytically what is
happening. Chemistry was a craft for a long time in history.

The model of astrology I present can easily be applied by anybody
to everyday experience. In that sense it ressmbles ancient greek
philosophy that was both quite abstract, but also a lot more
directly connected to everyday experience that most of current
physics. There is not much previous knowledge required to
understand the model I present, just some abiltity to think both
logically and associatively and the will to try something out for
some time with an open but still critical mind. Here are some of
my favorite books about astrology:

Liz Greene, Astrology for Lovers. (she has a PhD in psychology;
don't let the title fool you, this is quite easy to read but is
also quite up to the point psychologically; many statements she
makes can be related to the model I propose, using the "tricks"
that I present and apply in my document; this model gives you
also a tool to distinguish to some degree which things that she
says correlate with the model and are hence maybe more likely
true, whereas the others might be rather of personal nature or,
else, maybe deeper insights)

Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate (as the title suggests, this
one goes deep)

Robert Hand, Essays on Astrology (he has studied history, the
notion of astrology as a craft comes from his essay "On Creating
a Science of Astrology" in this book)

Robert Hand, Horoscope Symbols.

A craftsman typcially has his/her own theories about what things
work and also probably made some false assumptions about how
things behave, simply because his/her experience is not formally
verified in the sense of science. And these convictions can
sometimes also be quite strong. It appears to me that many
astrologers go to astrology exactly to find something that is not
scientifically explainable and are thus also - for the opposite
reason than sceptics - likely to (at least unconsciously) oppose
scientific confirmation of astrology.

And thanks for your suggestions.

Alain Stalder

> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-A0C186.11091702082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
> > starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
> >
> > I have added the following statements to my web site to set
> > things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
> > newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
> > give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
> > interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
> > on my web site):
> >
> >
> > Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
> >
> > This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
> > nature.
> >
> > Background
> >
> > This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
> > superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
> > like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
> > page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
> > possibly even be incompatible with current science.
> >
> > I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
> > unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
> > the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
> > for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
> > physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
> > scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
> > even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
> > as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
> > tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
> > have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
> > purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
> > specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
> > an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
> > nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
> > prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
> >
> > Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
> > different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
> > hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
> > I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
> > provide some background information or reviews that link the
> > contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
> > respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
> > maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
> > would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
> > have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
> > maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
> > relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
> > its source is credited.
> >
> > Discoveries
> >
> > Abstract
> >
> > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> > symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> > earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> > Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> > magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> > explanation.
> >
> > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
> > made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
> > beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
> > influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
> >
> > The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> > composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> > ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
> > Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
> > were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
> > classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> > themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
> > elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
> > transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
> > simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
> >
> > Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
> > are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
> >
> > About me
> >
> > I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
> > there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
> > Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
> > for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
> > my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
> > University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
> > IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
> > Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
> > of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
> > here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net
>
>

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Sun 4 Aug 2002 10:07:48 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-052CAA.10074804082002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <uko4cn67h161fd@corp.supernews.com>,
 "Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "David Lindauer" <camille@bluegrass.net> wrote in message
> news:3D4BE86D.E5B4C4BF@bluegrass.net...
> >
> >
> > Immortalist wrote:
> >
> > > "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:astalder-A0C186.11091702082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > > > This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
> > > > starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
> > > > Discoveries
> > > >
> > > > Abstract
> > > >
> > > > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > > > interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> > > > symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> > > > earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> > > > Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> > > > magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> > > > explanation.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If brains are emotionally interconnected with directional spin, and the
> > > physical nature of the effect is unkown, what prompts the asertion of
 the
> > > idea?
> > >
> >
> > you could ask that same question about ANY scientific theory, because at
 some
> > point prior to the postulation of the theory, nothing was known.  So this
 may
> > be a more general question than you realize!
> >
> > David
>
> Good point. So if we start with a mild and sensitive doubt about all
> theories and uncertain beliefs we have about anything, and we accept this
> condition uncertainty we are trapped in, we can move onto the combination of
> the things we can only partially know and see what stands out as seeming to
> most reasonable to believe in. So if we cannot discount any theory but only
> find therories that are more reasonable to believe in when combined with all
> the theories we can think of, what context would help us find out what value
> of a theory about emotionally connected selves, by fields and forces, has in
> relation to other evidences we can find. How does this idea account for
> reasonable beliefs about brains and nerve cells? Does it discount them out
> of hand or does if allow room for finding in those areas?

Since the effect is in my experience correlated with the
orientation of the head, the sensor (if that is the right word)
is almost certainly in the brain. Experiment will show, but
personally I would search in the area of nerve cells, probably
looking for quantum effects, and hence search rather at small
lenght scales. So yes, it does allow room for finding in the
areas of brains and nerve cells.

Alain Stalder


> >
> > >
> > > > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > > > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
> > > > made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
> > > > beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
> > > > influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
> > > >
> > > > The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> > > > composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> > > > ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
> > > > Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
> > > > were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
> > > > classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> > > > themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
> > > > elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
> > > > transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
> > > > simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
> > > > are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
> > > >
> > > > About me
> > > >
> > > > I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
> > > > there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
> > > > Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
> > > > for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
> > > > my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
> > > > University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
> > > > IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
> > > > Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
> > > > of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
> > > > here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
> > > >
> > > > http://www.exactphilosophy.net
> >
>
>

Subject: Re: Discovery Disclosure (setting things straight)
Date: Tue 6 Aug 2002 04:55:24 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-5787DE.04552406082002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <ail7vl$fl5$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
 "Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:

> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-6AC20F.10063104082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > In article <aifo01$otu$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
> >  "Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Alain,
> > >
> > > Recently one of the brain-dead sci.physics group asked me
> > > if I knew who you were but did not say why. I knew I saw
> > > your name before. You shold likely be mentioning this over
> > > on alt.tarot and so forth. I have not seen anyone except one
> > > person talk about astrology over here. I know nothing about
> > > it. Galileo and Newton were also pseudo-scientists before
> > > they became famous. Until something is widely accepted
> > > everyone is quick to trash anything new. Quantum mechanics
> > > is the current target for abuse - but if it was not that it would
> > > be something else. That is all there is to explain things at
> > > the micoscopic level and if something is not fully understood
> > > it is only natural to point out something in science that
> > > is not fully understood that might explain it. I think the truth
> > > is no one will fund research into these new areas and when
> > > an independent (like a clerk at a Patent Office) comes along
> > > with an idea they trash it as 'pseudo'. Likewise there aren't
> > > many other people qualified to evaluate a lot of ideas and
> > > the ones that are qualified have their own interests/agenda.
> > > It appears today it is not good enough to simply have a good
> > > idea - even a physicst has to PROMOTE it. Like with a book.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Dubbeld
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > Thank you very much for your post; here are some thoughts and
> > references related to the issues risen:
> >
> > Many early physicists like e.g. Kepler did some astrology,
> > although it may be argued that they did it also for political
> > reasons to some degree. Kepler published at least one book about
> > astrology and introduced quite a few new ideas into the field.
> >
> > In 1952, the famous Swiss psychologist C.G. Jung published an
> > article with the title "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting
> > Principle" [in The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche,
> > Princeton 1969], in collaboration with Wolfgang Pauli, the
> > physicist who got the Nobel Prize for proposing the the exclusion
> > principle for Fermions and who also proposed the Neutrino.
> > Although I have only very recently read that article, it already
> > brings quantum mechanics, depth psychology with its archetypal
> > pictures, telepathy, precognition and astrology together, paired
> > with the strange things that happen when one tries to find direct
> > proof for such things.
>
> I know them both well. Fermions and Bosons now along with
> 'interactions' instead of matter and energy. Since I do yoga
> Jung is no stranger to me.
>
> >
> > The "acausal connecting principle" that appears to be not
> > completely bound by time and space, ressembles very much quantum
> > mechanical correlations, which became most prominent with the
> > Gedankenexperiment of Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen (EPR) in
> > conjunction with the violation of the Bell Equations that exclude
> > practically all local deterministic theories (but not non-local
> > ones). Something that appears to happen often in experiments, is
> > that initially an effect seems to be present, but as soon as
> > numbers go towards becoming really statistically convincing, the
> > effect disappears again. As a meta-experiment, this might be
> > significant, although one has to be very careful here, because
> > people might report only experiments in which that happened and
> > discard others. If you speak some german, the document "Die 1 und
> > die 2" (The 1 and the 2) by Werner Held might be interesting to
> > read. It is about the same topics, gives a good overview about
> > these and more recent works in that area, and it is also
> > philosophically quite deep, dealing with dualities in principle,
> > like in self/world, conscious/unconscious, etc:
> >
> > http://people.freenet.de/soleil7/Texte.htm
> >
> > I have noticed too that qualified people have their own agendas,
> > but I also think it is more true for older, already established
> > people, not so much for young people who are more eager and open
> > to try something new. On the other hand, I am also providing a
> > platform for established people to put the stuff they did into a
> > perspective that has the chance to be scientifically accepted.
> >
> > There are quite a few astrologers with university degrees in
> > psychology etc. with deep and broad knowledge of psychology,
> > history and philosophy who recognize astrological connections to
> > forces on the human psyche. At the moment astrology is more a
> > craft than a science, in the way that there are experts who can
> > apply it, but are not well able to express or explain it in a way
> > that is understandable to others, nor do they themselves fully
> > understand what they know. A smith does not have to be a
> > physicist or a chemist in order to make, say, a sword. He can
> > teach his craft to others, but not explain analytically what is
> > happening. Chemistry was a craft for a long time in history.
>
> This analogy is the view of Late Post Modern non-Classical
> Foundationalism. A Scientist need not as in Lockes day know
> by experiment all preceeding science to proceed in his area of
> science. Nor a Christian believe/be a scholar of all aspects of
> Christianity to believe in it. Nor a person saying 'This is a
> chair.' - without knowing how the ey works and light reflects
> off objects/electromagnetic waves/how the brain gives it  cortical
> response to the vision center etc. No all of this not known - it is
> still reasonable for someone to simply say 'This is a chair.' based
> on his previous knowledge of chairs and assume something to
> be a chair until proven otherwise. Late-Post-Modern-non-Classical
> Foundationalism. It is a pyramid based structure. If
> some of the blocks do not survive the whole thing does not fall.
> This as opposed to Classical Foundationalism - Locke and gang
> where every piece of knowledge rests on the same foundation and
> if anything is wrong with the foundatation the entire building
> could collapse. Also like the Plotinus 'Divine Mind' which is
> all of Plato's Forms. One theorem in Geometry can not be wrong
> because the whole set of Geometric Theorems are interconnected
> and would fall apart is another example of Modern Classical
> Foundationalism.
>
> >
> > The model of astrology I present can easily be applied by anybody
> > to everyday experience. In that sense it ressmbles ancient greek
> > philosophy that was both quite abstract, but also a lot more
> > directly connected to everyday experience that most of current
> > physics. There is not much previous knowledge required to
> > understand the model I present, just some abiltity to think both
> > logically and associatively and the will to try something out for
> > some time with an open but still critical mind. Here are some of
> > my favorite books about astrology:
> >
> > Liz Greene, Astrology for Lovers. (she has a PhD in psychology;
> > don't let the title fool you, this is quite easy to read but is
> > also quite up to the point psychologically; many statements she
> > makes can be related to the model I propose, using the "tricks"
> > that I present and apply in my document; this model gives you
> > also a tool to distinguish to some degree which things that she
> > says correlate with the model and are hence maybe more likely
> > true, whereas the others might be rather of personal nature or,
> > else, maybe deeper insights)
> >
> > Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate (as the title suggests, this
> > one goes deep)
> >
> OK got them.
>
> > Robert Hand, Essays on Astrology (he has studied history, the
> > notion of astrology as a craft comes from his essay "On Creating
> > a Science of Astrology" in this book)
> >
> > Robert Hand, Horoscope Symbols.
> >
> > A craftsman typcially has his/her own theories about what things
> > work and also probably made some false assumptions about how
> > things behave, simply because his/her experience is not formally
> > verified in the sense of science. And these convictions can
> > sometimes also be quite strong. It appears to me that many
> > astrologers go to astrology exactly to find something that is not
> > scientifically explainable
>
> Maybe but I think it is more likely they just don't care what
> science thinks. In other words I know so many psychics and
> healers and so forth that by hearing them talk most do not seem
> to know where science begins and ends anyway - as in they
> are not particularly interested (curiously enough) and in fact
> get nervous when the subject of science comes up. I saw this
> sharp contrast at a lecture on Shamanism where a Biochemist
> attended because he was promoting a book on Quantum
> Mechanics as related to biology and I was told that he had to
> keep his book under cover because his collegues would likely
> cause him problems if they found out he was publishing this
> material. He thought (I guess) of himself as a sort of rebel in
> this respect - but compared to all those other people talking
> about amulets and charms and so fort he was on very solid
> scientific ground. I consider it an asset not having a closed
> mind on these things but sci.physics have some real basket
> cases over there.... :) Look at G. Hammond how much flack
> he got. I think it is better to leave them in the dark and just
> extract the answers you need without telling them the purpose
> for trying to gain information on them.
>
> good luck,
> Mike Dubbeld

Here is what Liz Greene said about a year ago; it appears to be
somewhere in between, but closer to science. The full interview
is at: http://www.astro.com/info/plutint3_e.htm?lang=e

Nick Campion:
[...] I'm wondering whether you still agree with words that you
wrote 25 years ago. You said that "astrology is ... a map of the
system of laws by which the energies of life operate - an
astrology vindicated by statistical research and scientific
investigation."[16] Does that represent your current thinking? I
am interested in that statement because it has been claimed that
there has been a change in how astrologers view scientific
research and statistics as a way of validating astrology, and
that negative statistical results have encouraged an
anti-scientific stance amongst astrologers. So, has your own view
changed since 1977?

Liz Greene: I think that research is very valuable in astrology,
in the sense that it can highlight patterns. Sometimes research
reveals patterns that we don't expect, and our assumptions are
challenged. So, yes, it is very valuable for us to do statistical
research. However, I don't think it is valid from the point of
view of trying to prove that astrology works, because if you have
the kind of mentality that is dead-set against astrology, you
will try to blow holes in the statistics anyway. And usually you
can take any set of statistics and destroy it. Astrologers can
pursue statistical research for their own purposes, but there is
no point in trying to convince skeptics. If I do 300 charts
during the course of a year for people born with the Sun opposite
Saturn, and 80% of them either had fathers who left them when
they were young, or fathers who died early, or fathers who
abandoned them before they were born, or fathers who were cold
and distant, that's statistical research. I can then say: "Well,
80% of the 300 Sun-Saturn charts that I have done have this kind
of psychological pattern." It may then be useful for me to
explore further what that Sun-Saturn aspect means. But if I took
that research to somebody who defines statistical research in a
more "scientific" sense, they would say: "Three hundred people is
nothing. What you need is 3,000 and a neutral control group."
Whatever you do, they'll find a way to set other tests. I think
the research we do is very important for us. Whether it convinces
anybody outside, I don't really care, to be quite honest. I think
we need to do it for our own constant development.

Me again: It appears to me that the example she gives is not so
far from something which would convince most scientists; 80% of
800 people appears to be at least a clear indication that further
experiments could yield convincing evidence of her hypothesis of
a correlation between a Sun-Saturn opposition and a father that
is not present. It is maybe understandable that astrologers give
up after some years, but probably younger people see this a bit
differently. And if astrology was confirmed within the next few
years (which I judge not unlikely), that would of course
immediately rise the question why there are correlations between
birth date and character. That is the direction in which my
document goes: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

>
> and are thus also - for the opposite
> > reason than sceptics - likely to (at least unconsciously) oppose
> > scientific confirmation of astrology.
> >
> > And thanks for your suggestions.
> >
> > Alain Stalder
> >
> > > "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:astalder-A0C186.11091702082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > > > This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
> > > > starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
> > > >
> > > > I have added the following statements to my web site to set
> > > > things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
> > > > newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
> > > > give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
> > > > interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
> > > > on my web site):
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
> > > >
> > > > This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
> > > > nature.
> > > >
> > > > Background
> > > >
> > > > This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
> > > > superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
> > > > like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
> > > > page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
> > > > possibly even be incompatible with current science.
> > > >
> > > > I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
> > > > unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
> > > > the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
> > > > for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
> > > > physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
> > > > scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
> > > > even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
> > > > as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
> > > > tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
> > > > have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
> > > > purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
> > > > specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
> > > > an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
> > > > nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
> > > > prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
> > > >
> > > > Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
> > > > different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
> > > > hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
> > > > I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
> > > > provide some background information or reviews that link the
> > > > contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
> > > > respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
> > > > maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
> > > > would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
> > > > have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
> > > > maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
> > > > relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
> > > > its source is credited.
> > > >
> > > > Discoveries
> > > >
> > > > Abstract
> > > >
> > > > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > > > interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> > > > symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> > > > earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> > > > Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> > > > magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> > > > explanation.
> > > >
> > > > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > > > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
> > > > made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
> > > > beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
> > > > influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
> > > >
> > > > The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> > > > composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> > > > ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
> > > > Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
> > > > were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
> > > > classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> > > > themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
> > > > elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
> > > > transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
> > > > simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
> > > > are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
> > > >
> > > > About me
> > > >
> > > > I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
> > > > there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
> > > > Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
> > > > for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
> > > > my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
> > > > University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
> > > > IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
> > > > Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
> > > > of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
> > > > here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
> > > >
> > > > http://www.exactphilosophy.net
> > >
> > >
>
>

Subject: test '02
Date: Tue 20 Aug 2002 22:48:59 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test,alt.test.signature
From: Alain Stalder <astalder25@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder25-FAEA34.22485820082002@news.sunrise.ch>

test (hashes for a list of files).

Alain Stalder (astalder25@bluewin.ch)

--

File: "discoveries.pdf"
Size: 543019
MD5: 74cc12a8b0c0f7412f77ce06cfba8817
SHA: 3188fd502a8d42799753f076b7bb1c3147a768a3
SHA256: 57d262ac022aa31b5d47035459676f1dd927e3909ad848ad0dd058a4f206c2a8
SHA384: 2d1dcb1eab1e04dcc4ce0bb1122965069fddc15d5211bb5fe622ea24e7de69bf
        f996e79bc67b60e2029fcbbd6b26198d
SHA512: 8a90e9efed6cd042ea5f5aee8fe3d114e2f434a02e70a8c462f4397f078766e3
        75726950a95f207404d4dedbad173416fe3c99601fceb6b5b41f6aeebeb4b1d7
RIPEMD128: e64d40678ecd3b084a52da43633a4cbd
RIPEMD160: b030cbc3c2dee24f8ee580e918c947bffaf5f4f7

File: "review.pdf"
Size: 46963
MD5: cfd8de45d11bef6ec06ea4aa8f597aed
SHA: 7c50a0b08844862db0242f2f95bd11eb87d4b0c7
SHA256: 133127273480ee2b0f6f656490b73af9ca183e4b8c67dc5946b5d2c8df319f99
SHA384: 3b743aea2b282b7237eaf728b740b3bffd4b8e8c01ccc24a9dadd1a5c931eea1
        4e888cc8c5c9a79243b336523bae0e3a
SHA512: 44b6e98308cf504fa17ba06fa8affe8cbaa51c554ab9a07a648abe32795fa38d
        be70083bd8bc48b0a7c06e735d27d028a2f395bd63ecf24833a63ee8b57b6a82
RIPEMD128: fdf22f615bbb77388c296bdeac16bd74
RIPEMD160: 6be589ca3857bd189cbe38bb04bc7cafe4d27076

File: "logfile.pdf"
Size: 127055
MD5: 1481fd32a9df43f4041d6728b42d0b85
SHA: 1bd2b94fc3156ecabf16354a5d8e5cbed143a9dc
SHA256: 673828868419245761618ed0a4b6c0fb2274e7b711c29aed4c9f5094069cf17e
SHA384: 0312234ca6ca6d45293b0a4c52893e1d0cf1e56d79c982c458896c26529bbc5e
        3c8b0ae80c63183110e8956d4ff75af9
SHA512: 1a8ddd19772bf985c45661f07591de4a777e2c0dbf6199ef93705766641f67bf
        b4ea784a148ea9604cddf04b03b8c3e52a7ecae93a5dc3aa669ea062ac3eb904
RIPEMD128: 0287f55627f1557497cef648cba931f2
RIPEMD160: 29800a4650e2775b814ece19a914b4d02a946c4b

File: "jan1998.txt"
Size: 2792
MD5: 583646cdf33605d4cdcdd77ed9a78a2c
SHA: 9506a242d7d22ff7b0c3b74e3a5c93150767a09f
SHA256: a4a8bc41b64ac67965b9af32341d8a8a30833ceb935c1ce0a146d7b75912f57b
SHA384: ee624549b94acf17225b60b1c69ef5fc6868ac01acdb1319cd80184aba64080b
        37f37ecbd56a19f36a53a6a597c7343f
SHA512: 9e114326df10aeb7ded5b7623847d85dc1f9950cff7889fee9e462e2a15b1217
        887a9e0a8aa887c678648a3dfbd059b30b482892bec322b5b002b776b947a78f
RIPEMD128: 9337a16128984d3fe6af7ff436a165bf
RIPEMD160: 25494232e9e6aa19718e035ececd7a8a6de61d33

File: "jan2000.txt"
Size: 19571
MD5: 91303789c0ace6ae9f6b2fd013ca871d
SHA: e5b5b56dd5eb57dfc1996d85b468a9ec3d928789
SHA256: bc7eb0be5a2bd1d5f9c9390e2cca01529030390e3a2f10bfe4bf910b03ae66f7
SHA384: 484458c67cc26a706a3177166454c69c867053986c56850975ee9e10056a4031
        577f903f0906ea235c598361e11943f2
SHA512: dcaf3070b4911a41ed07c5f522db4f4b5788f3cba5f0a9b32c3b329b5002af3f
        2fecc7926df75d59d8a598de6f546fbdf85fb8543fd6237ece787f55505bb551
RIPEMD128: b47745ee9e521b38887f5cf62e4e1a07
RIPEMD160: ef16d3d85a52210b66d72ad84ced5a7b8409c220

File: "jan2000s.txt"
Size: 19751
MD5: 4e18f1e7da8f69f3807765069d6e6e62
SHA: 167e7eeff4a3c8bb9ae6f684b7325c364a6b66a9
SHA256: 5ad8558b3f5d9ee7849f5bdeb5bcb73cc79cef9506899ee50f2a907d319a1f20
SHA384: e2b83e68bc1f17e5ccfd70ac078e2d3fe410ba1af0d8bf1da5ee4e04c9e407c7
        cf84f1be6b46332ccd4cf22e2725c50e
SHA512: bd18bd156b202400cb755800faf0dec5d991a964c0eb3b763a6d214083afda29
        bb213eb2764b3779ca4c3e28c872d143015c04d6c7a2dd4d8b19d85d52298567
RIPEMD128: 71a6060bafffb39126fe22c725bec1d4
RIPEMD160: f13ab90e1990dd401659a67869d4a7aa4a5a782d

File: "mar2001.txt"
Size: 31867
MD5: c52af9527e3c645f87ec0d430ea366e2
SHA: b0f4be90f7bdd3c40cc4cb376700aaee790b32aa
SHA256: 52e591a89450832b245a8adedfe6874d5f2ba992ba162053dd2fa908cb2114e8
SHA384: 0db68e2734fa6dc5cc475e43c663808a313b96e6734b925ab36fdce9a9996c6a
        c7e3f4c4e5016b86aa5f8ce77a15cbfe
SHA512: 50fea8e760d09e740c154f82183850a74251fac8fb5b08674377e12392af1554
        b003d79c5a9725b9bd7c18caf8913e2d49198a65195f9c3761a80ab9af73ca2f
RIPEMD128: 6d8a367f25198528df89097c1618c357
RIPEMD160: 75eb5cb833bfbee6baaf9d4561a1fbdff83f7fd0

File: "mar2001s.txt"
Size: 32047
MD5: e83b2ce3ec033fa9724be4bab66d879f
SHA: 928076849e465dd3988ab37f836da53c770f7c8f
SHA256: 2c73cf514127397931fe990d9cd83648fe2d090964d1e649790d7f81036cc542
SHA384: a6433d0f4f5a601155f8275baa4e226418c1ac862a89b05a4a544ecd68c34064
        9116ffe210629f2c23760a034701b7d3
SHA512: 6cb04ae9ec10a34697619e87f5e0ad0a571c4077838da6cc35578dc555098c72
        af0f0971c57f604b82c5edf99e15803e9b63dac95f1c8b1653b7c794195ce2b5
RIPEMD128: ae5482750a78fc8faf3789ca8f9fee92
RIPEMD160: 4d6cf06e73074309ce8e68114b77de5b60c6d0a3

File: "may2001.txt"
Size: 53183
MD5: 41855aa8a5848d7292264d6589e5251a
SHA: 67b737effb1ebed2eed33f34eb80aa2d7c645c49
SHA256: 3ab4b96a2ce350986cc0c0d0cffb967420a3c94a110572a6cb42f878c61b2851
SHA384: 8794ff9c70d293ebaf1ff08bffef73a27619f0d00787caa70590a8e300837a77
        9876c4dede71804c93f9571a35faf966
SHA512: c0e21c8c72992eea6b237c299cce163b05534c831bec1b4bba51a27d0ef52a7d
        46e29ae36222519994b5917fa2c4b7b60b3e1c37b8825c769c67cbd6c8b285c2
RIPEMD128: 6641c447eca9a4f181de50e3fc82a670
RIPEMD160: 95b34c655fd72e45b753d280d53e66059e6869f8

File: "may2001s.txt"
Size: 53361
MD5: d114b72e5b3e0f3404b3dff2d6a5490b
SHA: 7251f4f5d16ad44ca537c2b468588982230e6c02
SHA256: dd826eb0879fb4c01383d416cbbd3c02f1c6426e951abd57797545ecdd5b68d9
SHA384: c6370e3fad24ca5a9aab457baa78b07bd66045fbd7bfc14f1e9deb4f78184129
        fbe07b650eda719536c4f9c3703a9281
SHA512: fb87b7dec476d2f0e15a0b88b9dba975e88d5756519513706995345973e3088b
        2865490f31c314ac1c20d54d13b2ebe8ca2a40e4fc1628701575e0db142cc42c
RIPEMD128: dd6a2f8c1cd55bc80c6a1b37b883bbc6
RIPEMD160: 7537100de7b5a729aea0c5ccccbbaab7ad590fb9

File: "jan2000.txt 2000-01-15"
Size: 942
MD5: 289c1831eb16ef0910184605b296fa7d
SHA: a89bb6e98d5b6091d442d29b9511f53ab754ef28
SHA256: a211bac8a8625b0480ad95426aadc36b094e5a84874ec01da2e45d56cc21dc01
SHA384: ece3a372526566cb3de91a4b69ac5bfe9203815e7f3bd3afeeab0ba53961a990
        3025eb3e49db4e62b999d91a37300f55
SHA512: 9506121b8f4c352b2d9bbfb2d3ec4e7245a391b883bbcaaba023323db3b15af0
        b3ba86735ea524f08e245827979906312ad56aa56f02114f94823109165cfed5
RIPEMD128: 49a7688b41741ade642f0556645552a5
RIPEMD160: d4c745f57d971320bec16064201a29867145b9c6

File: "jan2000s.txt 2000-07-03 PKCS7"
Size: 653
MD5: bd27dd1adbb036a70c9825e502bdd56b
SHA: 96853cc59b47dcf9e036c3d5bf2dd1cd5b1079ef
SHA256: e9fc57923cb88789d40015b10567a661f6d16b8aeb21ecd695c672bfa06ab545
SHA384: dd935965c13a52278a612e2567a12974672b9459b173c27a486b1f4cab54ded7
        d426bf53c1982cf70304773c3c507a02
SHA512: 6aa364478621bf4afe8e689c360193555989e1c3179463a026bb6800e9b1738c
        54f27c9bfdacc81407d6c19d582d684e33552a82b8b2e8310de82a85cb147d52
RIPEMD128: de31e4a56c209b3d3df6c4b62b9901b4
RIPEMD160: 252fb7d512458a477b41751f25cd36b8371e26ae

File: "mar2001s.txt 2001-03-29 PKCS7"
Size: 654
MD5: 2fb86a2409a47f91e960b9f122df609a
SHA: c8b48dceac493953cf28b76005cbe387a7197d5e
SHA256: 6738849135cabb18c19f33d426551a003f558a8255ff62edab0b390b57348de6
SHA384: 3590ceafd29dd5f92df63628b59fe0ca2aad43f2050516d4385e289c5257da0d
        5d96fbdaeff436f8cf0570b4322c49fc
SHA512: c86b730903addb55b669cdab8037c15978b5f4edd8874be60741726636b33341
        efa66cf36ced0d007463449bbf2fa2a2ae7a13406030fa7b0cc8ad37c9c9a76b
RIPEMD128: f2b1984e013cfa803df48f24e62212d9
RIPEMD160: 8c5c0467d7b43e07832804b76eb1564c7c61b2c1

File: "may2001s.txt 2001-05-03 PKCS7"
Size: 654
MD5: 89aafb06d0a78a5268f9453b149114fd
SHA: 7b5cbca36df4dba60f1f1912c8ea080c8fa0c0b4
SHA256: b099cd18671d791a64d0c40f357471432bdda993884069ec5bb3b4cd65c2a9a0
SHA384: 544814cbc5daaad2c462365448a2a061fb1c5c49ebbd7380152fc28befa3a3a2
        22657de2e1602b1d9aaafbfc9ebd5439
SHA512: fb76fe928b37e57d8b9e52edca66b36fe713d787d2f1b32334796c5a8ea8718c
        9af46b21c724f0663e7e927d1c21a3ed9a2c3c444fdf8892e36227067fffbd52
RIPEMD128: b5a9b8776be2809ab59c94e93314d9c8
RIPEMD160: e0d12aef101b02e45554a50d104c1968c76f6baa

File: "discoveries.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: 65e6be7453c752d26ea0afea9fd496e1
SHA: 78243419dc119bcd7ae252bb924efa8c87651ff1
SHA256: 0fcdc38ef490ef1e022eaaae78cbd2105462d8fe8f73030964473efc69963985
SHA384: 8d7bf6ee7eaa85273a064c98b369e798523b028a9f384e78067d6c5e8d6517b8
        82feda4222174deace2cc6bb36e6ca27
SHA512: 64ee78fae06dd70b000b14c4c3a6c7dd96efd1648e0bdd6d383055372db2cfcb
        f7d6a5bb6f1c446ec1f7d40d752d53b2a652dcef6561b286035d769b80ef12d9
RIPEMD128: 210bd0f1b8cf225bac650650e5ebbbed
RIPEMD160: a773fa1530f13b224740347871fe4c6c73e5e9e9

File: "review.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: e2e824bfd9b86f3cedc57a7e8067c48e
SHA: 82621b911570ab0a964d29ffb83b1dee3572a8ce
SHA256: 344cad65134195b96624c3b8f4a66f544c015262c98b512625386a735bccddba
SHA384: 92d77c04d86fc9306e0d9a616742b2e06710bafa2ced1602dd288c0960ede0c5
        3cde1b2ea55cbf520c8f3cb8690cff92
SHA512: bbc84c707ae1b21d28e4df207c7caffa5bf94d90056b8b05b55808e03dc7f8c9
        be859082dde335160610d5bdd0a3e26934f7d2995025d7bc8dbf9bd32e359730
RIPEMD128: 401726a01f50a08aae6edf97d1fd8037
RIPEMD160: 470a142d07066ffaae554ca2f5eebd3304354610

File: "logfile.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: a3ac3e246a71b0428c4d0f6693e7da3b
SHA: d98c3e93df88a7bcd944dd16ac9a8704211e654c
SHA256: 76d2ad4ebaf35d71476d07849f324aa0f769169a00e07ed6d6082a25a4d446c4
SHA384: 59e92a2deae3cf0e659ba626aa38b135cedce6a51240be04b7248c10c257e56d
        40e78edb27353bf01036c685e8c01466
SHA512: 5f919396c610e6bd8d139862104d466ae7a5c4f884740f1dc1154c0b3df8deab
        76be5ef80fc19355c96cbb742f10e406d609ead44a33d07ab3a2a0787fee57cd
RIPEMD128: 5f1fcea5b90cdd026f98179249ce9402
RIPEMD160: b1207042abf9948e25a8572e593d82e3b0c38dfb

File: "post sci.physics"
Size: 2184
MD5: 3e7276fd0c136fe153aa17d6acd55e28
SHA: 3250e79437277119fce7547575ba646ac37c69e5
SHA256: 47a45494e0f81a49a98ac930fea7893a7c566162e758f4484e712cc39203a5c2
SHA384: e604811cefd6ac66db0e22da7e55b072c1329c93fa213108f4a56a762a04e5b8
        1bb6c872763d155da5eb145b0f0824f6
SHA512: a8ef7e640a6acedd7894ead6677182afb8f72b88ad4ed73d1741543fbe7aefa2
        961cad381b8adced8910a5cce3a38bec6c1d56a995e5907a9febcead3d4673a5
RIPEMD128: fc6aedf0d4c4be9006f479734b0cf5ef
RIPEMD160: 70a1ee5c97795b0f903e6e9ffc269e4cd6e9597a

File: "post' sci.physics"
Size: 5183
MD5: d069a2ebf2079ddf85d3f88a69f6cd9d
SHA: e7ff72de3e2bb5d245ab6d742d40c8cbc6e590e4
SHA256: 2f7794851b0b204524bc06bd2e9952cd832c73ee08a08195e58c829a26cdb009
SHA384: d95f2be9a6f4cbf198033cdc80f2fdf57a493a1a3e2c9238ec6a5d09b9d870aa
        5f0a824fd79a8e4b13a558e803aa32d5
SHA512: b7e31e5cf32fa032e4a2894678eaf73e02898e40dc7acd670ed6cc1dcf4b94d4
        7bdd182168c72bbe5a835b8f73ed330169f5f86c1206f36a1567082f6141bc20
RIPEMD128: a7d311f2c441fbe08b5ec64bcb29a76b
RIPEMD160: 6f07142cc60d359698c8b1a99405f093e8b2a7da

File: "web20020810.zip"
Size: 1360797
MD5: d605bdc9f91baaec6cda4bd6a7dadab7
SHA: e24beb539106ce8fd9ba98b535322216f4c5aeee
SHA256: b0e0d7795e99d31278e0c664f8db51dd1051e7791d199e5e107142deeee5ce5d
SHA384: 162bd72f6097076cef88540e2d6c0f62ce1c3918605911c1b549bba9567bee57
        357cbf1e7af3713e71a9f0ff0f4a8fa2
SHA512: 6b0aeb41c3786f984a282ec64d7566a63099ea5d85d4c9abed24c48b33b1f28c
        58f0c976f151a0e7cc9b2b4091d75ecb0bdde41630224bde2d62003c602b357b
RIPEMD128: c21fe480f69b1285c9a10180d9f9f59a
RIPEMD160: f635c8f9cd3d3ca75a1ca0471aa2645667bdfe60

File: "web20020810.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: b646d415a7ed1d76162bbf72f25e3e41
SHA: 5b3d95d800f5918334c67081e9a62d251975e51b
SHA256: 11e6abb7955cf0f475d53df1e49485ed790c6f530617d9b9762b81d8076f0649
SHA384: d0c53b35209b30de6b9c222ffb77e63cdf67d3fb6f1ae018698efedf5d7555db
        30f6f5b40e2032e1a28d15baa457f807
SHA512: 919987f1b9e24cd88b95fffbb1a25186a7718fd1897e25dd3afe3d19b61a9764
        9e8b39054101af52fa767ebae1427b2a26e1b81d91b23daf66e7fae307095698
RIPEMD128: 5a46fe53d8a112f22b9392ce426a9020
RIPEMD160: 81bdcab3b47c78d6af6e8376c2c0ff6307c5d504

File: "web20020819.zip"
Size: 1267695
MD5: 4be001ab0428a303617b26f022d93136
SHA: 1b239474f22976b562951399db2e295dd46d008b
SHA256: 2cfde0ee80f1b97a53e95a1807cbc1a37fc6211d31ba1e4f4d2a5c2f7ad91d6b
SHA384: 7be3c00d0fd197ac60a809fb4f0bede64826eb5d85a12255354b86505c708c52
        28c1f588bf8dbceb26ca34b5b1e905e5
SHA512: 37956b08a0d8150b8fea8d58296e5abcf8345e368486f91c7af81552cdd249c1
        0d66aeda816a25afc005ead7116ee62046d8cca8dc194ece2a76b0e6daa3e428
RIPEMD128: fca8c22f5842d10d3eb6d91096ea022b
RIPEMD160: b8b5b25db413aafc91bf0fe3eaf43c0cb1a627dc

File: "web20020819.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: c4632ce27882db3bbf048b6016855eb4
SHA: fb24e2af8134712f8e9661a3b85d5876afc75c44
SHA256: 514c7afa3a1dde3e134b5f1ff4795bcd14e6c08bfeef6c684080a121820bd61f
SHA384: 62b8c93cac43bbff519ec02f7aa6f9848ef43cb813a360f4ed00e1871ee270c5
        fb5fb25eb362e12b51cb5983ddcf867a
SHA512: 67e310b65ae6ec75a2d48047e4905a5d8bc61001eb7f6b2f8aa2e3705608f714
        8eb60233896455f823b9c9b1bdcca37260f244d1d26c30021382d5b9fe7510d7
RIPEMD128: e04f5f3d456079656d2c894265fb8f20
RIPEMD160: 7891cca8c43e71f993ed268b1ba1fca73f4ab712

File: "swisskey2000.crt"
Size: 1157
MD5: 25be3f1299130bbbf8beffba619be69c
SHA: dabd936d03d39596da830368fd9c2e0d204048e7
SHA256: e9b68a4453066c79935b55f5a4accfdd1711a5fba402aa265d65a2c63895fc91
SHA384: 8e37eb4ee17dc95ce8aa486723f3874cac42bc2f77b74fb5f87c900cdf470ac4
        0bc72969ffaa7e53a54263033dde2811
SHA512: 316ff385d1e55b1168a88477209093ef7f790b8b09f07fa6eef2334b62fd8c8c
        56e8592da4ef685e4a412cda73e6199873c6e752ece1c15c85e89eb8be870819
RIPEMD128: d4d05b4d6adb95b1dbd43d15158308e0
RIPEMD160: 7d94f171e05a345fd9541b73189232286e0d2999

File: "Personal ID CA 1024.crl"
Size: 165963
MD5: f8278334295c900a5bdede54d4031033
SHA: 5d045d02fe68e3ddaf11c23c0278c08bca289cd3
SHA256: e0ac99061202e6f0ce0f0d5abe91e2738b049c9ace4789139712437798dbd52f
SHA384: 35aadb0f6da9b57da6876c00416274411db49887fa927d7705bb387ad164f077
        2eaffb886ece5acbd09e8a08f547e1e4
SHA512: f4b84f3fad59c5fb50386926f61848e8a12a041df7feb92a059d4a9f3db1c593
        c92c28b48126fe5697361ea6f1ea80739dfc82ba0877d6c1e971605fb13ff145
RIPEMD128: 406cb13ce64fc2ccd3f26d4e7108f8f8
RIPEMD160: 51418b3e5e0b6b783bd59866dca028801dcfc6a9

Subject: Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
Date: Sun 8 Sep 2002 08:47:56 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-B3941C.06261208092002@news.dplanet.ch>

Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac

It is now more than 20 years since the beginning of psychological
astrology. Combining psychology and astrology has proven to be
very useful and has yielded many deeper insights into astrology.
However, approaching and learning psychological astrology is not
an easy task. Each student has to learn to use and understand
many archetypal pictures and how they are related to star signs,
planets, etc.

In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
after the other and explain things as I go along.

Fire

One basic archetype for Fire is simply a burning fire. There are
three fire signs, Aries, Leo and Sagittarius; they come after
each other in that order in the zodiac. Now, a fire starts with
lots of wood and little flames and smoke, then in the middle, it
burns full force until, finally, almost no wood is left and lots
of smoke has gone up into the air. Let's look at things very
basically: Wood is solid, so it is a form of Earth, whereas Smoke
is a form of Air. So, in this very basic view, a burning fire
transforms Earth to Air.

Now, the idea is that the three Fire signs symbolize the three
different phases of a burning fire. Aries is an early fire that
consists mainly of Earth (wood) and has produced little Air
(smoke) yet. Leo is a fully burning fire with ample amounts of
Earth and Air, Sagittarius consists only of little Earth but lots
of Air. Now, let me connect this to psychology.

Earth stands for reality and it also stands for the human body.
Why does Earth stand for the human body ? Well, Earth produces
plants that then feed animals. Similarly, the body of a woman
produces new life too, namely a child. Air stands for the mind,
for language. Now, one important difference between Earth and Air
is that the human body is mortal, but creations of the mind can
be written down or taught to the next generation, so Air is
immortal while Earth is mortal.

Fire itself stands psychologically for the imaginary power to
visualize how things could or should be. So, Fire transforms
mortal Earth into immortal Air. The human body and especially its
brain produces by imagination timeless, immortal thoughts that
can be given on to later generations.

Several psychological properties of the Fire signs can be
understood from that, for example:

a) secrecy/openness: If you are immortal, you can afford to be
open, since nothing can really affect you too much then. So
Sagittarius is often open whereas Aries tries to keep things
secret until he is sure he can defend them. Leo is in between,
has to decide for each issue whether to be frank about it or not.

b) wound: Psychological astrology connects Sagittarius for
example to the centaur Chiron that is accidentally wounded with a
poisoned arrow from his friend Heracles. The arrow contains
deadly poison so that Chiron suffers deadly pains, but since he
is immortal, he cannot die, until he later is allowed into the
underworld by Zeus in exchange for Prometheus. So, how is this
connected to a burning fire ? Very directly, since Fire burns
wood (Earth), so it wounds the physical mortal body. Since
Sagittarius is mainly made of immortal Air, the wound is bigger
in him than in Leo or Aries, but he still cannot die from it.
Psychologically, the wound also stands for consideration of the
other. Aries is quite egoistically, he is not wounded much and
also cannot afford to much altruism since he has to protect his
own mortality. Leo typically starts out in life just like Aries,
but typically later in life has to learn to show and feel
consideration for other people's feelings and needs. Sagittarius
typically learns that already earlier. He can afford to be
altruistic even if that is painful because people will take
advantage of it, but in the end that cannot hurt his immortal
soul.

Let me stop here from giving more examples for Fire, so that the
text remains readable without being superficial. Before we go to
Water, let me connect the transition of the Fire signs, namely
Earth-Fire-Air, to the philosophy of Aristotle. He viewed the
four elements to be composed of two pairs of properties: hot/cold
and dry/wet. The four elements are composed as follows:

Fire: hot+dry
Earth: cold+dry
Air: hot+wet
Water: cold+wet

From that model, he described how elements can be transformed
into each other, namely by changing one of these properties at a
time. So, you can go from Earth to Fire by making Earth hot (and
keeping it dry), then you can go to Air by making Fire wet (and
keeping it hot). This gives a closed circle: You can make Air
cold to get Water and then make Water dry to arrive back at Earth
again.

So, the Fire signs are part of that circle, just as the other
signs are, as I will try to show below.

Water

One archetypal image for Water is how it can transform from ice
to liquid water and then evaporate. So, his is again a transition
from Earth (ice) to Air (evaporated water), only this time it
goes through Water and not Fire. In other words, the transforming
power is feelings, not imagination.

Just as for the Fire signs above, the first Water sign, Cancer,
is made mainly of Earth (ice) and little Air (evaporated air),
Scorpio contains roughly equal amounts of Earth and Air, and,
finally, Pisces are mainly made of Air and little Earth. Now,
lets get into psychology again.

When something melts and evaporates, boundaries are removed,
things are allowed to mix with each other. This explains why
Cancer is so protective, why he tries to be secure of intrusion
into his shell (a solid border, or, in other words, Earth).
Scorpio is still suspicious and has to protect himself from pain,
the shell is still partially there, but he is also ready to give
in and to penetrate into others if he feels that this is
necessary. Pisces are mainly immortal Air, so nothing can really
hurt them anymore, they quite freely mix with all kinds of people
and other influences.

Let me extend on these meanings by giving three additional
archetypes for Water. Both derive from the basic archetype above.

Rivers originate in the mountains from springs, then flow down as
rivers while merging into larger rivers and flowing into the sea,
from where the water eventually evaporates (and then falls back
onto earth in the form of rain to feed the sources in the
mountains again). This is the circle of water. The source in the
mountains corresponds to Cancer, because it is the beginning of
the circle, but also because in the mountains it is colder than
below, there are often snow and ice (glaciers), which are forms
of Earth. Scorpio stands then for a river that flows down and
melts with other rivers. Pisces stand for the sea.

This fits very well with the impulsive creativity of Cancer,
where sometimes something just has to come out, or with Scorpio's
need to extend its influence, like the rivers that merge, or
simply with the many associations that connect Pisces to the sea.
Before I mention another piece of mythology, let me give the
other two archetypes.

The three fates stand for three phases in the life of a woman and
also for the three phases of the moon. Cancer, again because it
is the first Water sign in the zodiac, stands for a girl, Scorpio
for an adult woman and Pisces for an old woman. What defines
these three phases is the ability to have children. A young girl
cannot have children yet, whereas an old woman cannot have
children any more. This is also how the connection to the three
phases of the moon comes about: The phase around full moon shows
a round and full moon, which is similar to the round belly of a
pregnant woman. The two phases of the moon before that and after
that correspond to girl and old woman. The fourth phase when the
moon is not visible at all is a rest phase that is not really
included in this picture.

To make things complete, let me give another piece of mythology
that is typically correlated with Cancer (and Scorpio). Heracles
is fighting the monster Hydra in the swamps which had been sent
by Hera. The Hydra has 9 heads, and whenever Heracles chops off
one head, 3 others grow back. Only when he not only chops off the
heads, but also burns the stumps, does he succeed in winning the
fight. He almost lost the fight because of a crab that had been
sent by Hera too that bit Heracles into the foot while he was
fighting the Hydra. Heracles stomped the crab, but Hera gave the
crab a place in the sky as the star sign Cancer because the crab
was so loyal to her.

The interpretation of this myth is typically about the relation
between mother and child. This is most clearly seen from the fact
that Heracles means "Fame of Hera". Let me analyze further what
you see here on the elementary symbolic level. As usual, all the
proponents in the myth symbolize some aspects of Cancer, not only
the crab, but also Heracles, Hera, the Hydra, the swamps, etc.
The numbers 3 and 9=3x3 relate to the three fates. The element
Water is typically passive, water just flows down, never up. That
is the role of the crab, to bite the hero into the foot so that
he leaves his shell and cares for the things that are hurting the
mother Hera, symbolized by the nine-headed Hydra. The hero not
only has to chop off the heads to remove what hurts, but also to
heal the wounds by burning the stumps so that no new heads grow
back.

Pisces are connected to everything, since they have mixed all the
water, they care about everybody and everything, but Cancer has
not mixed much yet, mostly cares about a few close friends and
family. Sometimes the "mother", which is the unconscious
background of all the influences that had flown into the sea and
which form the water that comes out of the spring; sometimes the
"mother" has to hurt the "child" a bit to make it care for
something outside of itself.

I hope that I could convey the way of thinking about these things
a bit. It is essentially quite simple. You just look for
properties that are equal or similar between different
archetypes, like numbers that appear in them or the fact that
something is separated or mixed, etc. So, maybe you will allow me
to go through the remaining two elements a bit more quickly now.

Air

One important archetypal image is a cloud. A thunderstorm
typically starts out with lightning and thunder, when it is going
on full-force, there is lightning and rain, and, finally, the
storm ends will mostly rain and almost no lightning. So, we have
lightning (Fire) at the beginning and rain (Water) in the end.
Accordingly, Gemini, the first Air sign, is composed mainly of
Fire and only little Water, Libra of roughly equal amounts of
Fire and Water, and Aquarius mainly of Water and only little
Fire.

Lightning and fire are quick and unpredictable, this fits well
with Gemini. Rain is constant and falls in equal amounts on
everybody, this fits well with the altruism of Aquarius and the
fact that he is a fixed sign. Similarly to the Water signs, this
can also be seen as three stages in the life of a man (Air is a
male element). Children are quick and unpredictable, they can
change their moods from very unhappy to very happy within
seconds. Old men, in contrast, tend to become somewhat immobile
in their thinking and only open for new things that are not too
new, but, of course, they can compensate for part of this by
their greater experience.

A child has to learn how the world behaves by playing, by looking
at things from different sides. The first time you see a coin,
you only see pictures from different sides. It takes work in the
brain to connect these pictures into a single, abstract object
that is then given a name, "coin". The older you get, the more
things in the world are recognized to be just different sides of
the same things. For children there are more things than for
adults. The more you learn, the more transparent things become,
they become transparent like rain (Water).

Earth

One important archetypal image is the tree. It is made of wood
(Earth). In order to grow, a tree needs essentially two things,
light from the sun (Fire) from above and Water from its roots
below the surface. The transition is Fire-Earth-Water. The first
Earth sign of the zodiac, Taurus, is composed essentially of
Fire, Virgo of roughly equal amounts of Fire and Water, and
Capricorn essentially of Water.

The roots of the tree which feed it with Water symbolize the
structure that keeps the tree from falling down during its whole
life. What is visible from the tree from the outside, where the
sun (Fire) shines, namely leaves, flowers and fruits are more
beautiful, but also short-lived. They reappear every year.

Accordingly, for Taurus beauty is more important than structure,
whereas for Capricorn it is the other way round. Virgo is in
between. She has to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to go
for more order or more beauty. It is worthwhile to explore why
popular astrology typically describes Virgo as well-ordered while
in reality that should be attributed rather to Capricorn. The
main reason is that order is a big issue for Virgo because there
is the conflict with beauty, whereas for Capricorn such a
conflict does not exist. In addition, Virgo often has a tendency
to exaggerate, to go either for more or less order that she can
live with for a long time. It is often only a bit later in life
that Virgo learns to balance these opposite needs.

Summary

Astrology is a complex, organic structure. No simple model can
fully reproduce its richness. Nonetheless, like any living
organism, astrology has some bones, some structures that are
almost always the same in all individuals. I hope this text has
given sufficient indication that there actually are such simple
structures in astrology. They can be helpful in many ways:
Astrologers can gain a more structured view of archetypes and
they can maybe more easily explain some astrological concepts to
their clients. Access to psychological astrology becomes easier.
This can help many people to help themselves in lighter cases,
sort of as "prescription-free" medication in astrology. (In
analogy, if you just have a light cold, there is typically no
need to see a doctor, practically everybody knows quite well
what to do in that case).

But the simplicity of the model of the model presented above
might also have more far-reaching consequences. It is so simple
that even scientists could easily learn it and compare its
predictions with psychological reality. That would probably lead
to general acceptance of astrology and make it branch of science
again, after 300 years of separation. The consequences of that
are quite far-reaching, and hard to estimate for everybody,
especially since everybody has some responsibilities into how
things will turn out.

Further Literature

This is based on ideas published recently on the internet:

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Note that the document above is written very densely, much like a
scientific publication in exact sciences. This means that
practically nothing is ever repeated and some simpler logical
steps of connecting things to what has been said previously have
been left out. Still, if you are interested, you can probably
read and understand quite a bit of it now. But I also have to
warn you. It proposes also some deeper changes of how our world
may be. Furthermore, it goes psychologically quite deep, both in
general terms and in terms of collective psychologicial wounds.

My major astrological influences for this work were two books by
Liz Greene, namely "Astrology for Lovers" and "The Astrology of
Fate". It still amazes me how one could be able to fit mythology
so precisely to the star signs and psychology without access to
the simple structure that I presented.

I am a physicist who got into astrology rather accidentally, if
there is such a thing as an accident. So please tell me if that
text was too hard to understand, or if contains some gross errors
or maybe if there is previous work that should be mentioned, etc.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: gravity cannot be quantized ?
Date: Wed 11 Sep 2002 05:47:46 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-554D25.22475005092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <8c7d34cb.0209032121.68d938b6@posting.google.com>,
 zirkusz@hotmail.com (zirkus) wrote:

> I'm curious what people think of this short preprint which suggests
> that the gravitational field cannot be quantized, and thus that there
> are no gravitons. ".... This leads us to say that the gravitational
> field is always a static field which is in line with the null results
> of gravitational waves."
>
> http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0208085

I took a look at the preprint. It essentially gives an argument
that the graviton cannot have spin 0 or 1, which is well known.
If it had spin 1, like charges (masses) would repel and not
attract each other. If it had spin 0, it would not couple to
light, but light deflection by mass has been detected (during
solar eclipses some stars that would have been behind the sun
without deflection were still visible).

For a more extensive and quite readable explanation why the
graviton would most likely be a massless spin 2 particle,
I recommend the chapter "Quantum Gravity" by Brian Hatfield in
"The Feynman Lectures on Gravitation", Addison-Wesley (1995).

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: gravity cannot be quantized ?
Date: Wed 11 Sep 2002 21:37:50 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <EFEA9212-C47A-11D6-B7BF-000393822E2A@exactphilosophy.net>

In article <8c7d34cb.0209032121.68d938b6@posting.google.com>,
  zirkusz@hotmail.com (zirkus) wrote:

 > I'm curious what people think of this short preprint which suggests
 > that the gravitational field cannot be quantized, and thus that there
 > are no gravitons. ".... This leads us to say that the gravitational
 > field is always a static field which is in line with the null results
 > of gravitational waves."
 >
 > http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0208085

I took a look at the preprint. In brief, it first gives an
argument for something that is already well known and then,
I am afraid to say, draws a wrong conclusion from it.

In detail: An argument is given that a quantum field theory
of gravitation would have to be described by an antisymmetric
tensor field, whereas scalar, vector and symmetric tensor
fields can be excluded. From that it is concluded (correctly)
that the graviton cannot have spin 0 or 1. However, the
final conclusion that there is no graviton, because it could
not couple to matter with spin 1/2, is wrong.

Of course, there is no consistent quantum theory of gravitation
at the moment, but some elementary things will very likely
still hold in such a theory (else some existing quantum field
theories would very likely also be in trouble):

a) Light deflection by matter has been observed experimentally
    (During solar eclipses some stars that would be hidden
    behind the sun without deflection were still visible).
    This excludes spin 0 for the graviton (because the photon
    has spin 1).

b) In eletromagnetism, like charges repel, but in gravitation
    like "charges" (masses) attract. This excludes spin 1 for
    the graviton (again because photons have spin 1).

c) The above and the symmetry properties of the classical
    gravitational field (in general relativity) suggest that
    the graviton has spin 2 (higher multiples of 2 cannot be
    excluded, though).

(For a more detailed and well-readable description about
why the graviton would most likely be a massless spin 2
particle, see e.g. the chapter "Quantum Gravity" by Brian
Hatfield in "The Feynman Lectures on Gravitation"
(Addison-Wesley, 1995) - or what Feynman himself writes
in lectures that were held almost 40 years ago...)

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
Date: Sat 14 Sep 2002 21:08:48 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-71CDF7.11010014092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3d7b6ad5_4@news.chariot.net.au>,
 "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:

> ----------
> In article <astalder-B3941C.06261208092002@news.dplanet.ch>, Alain
> Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
> >
> >It is now more than 20 years since the beginning of psychological
> >astrology. Combining psychology and astrology has proven to be
> >very useful and has yielded many deeper insights into astrology.
> >However, approaching and learning psychological astrology is not
> >an easy task. Each student has to learn to use and understand
> >many archetypal pictures and how they are related to star signs,
> >planets, etc.
> >
> >In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
> >of the twelve star signs of the zodiac.
>
> [SNIPPED MOST OF TEXT}
> >
> >I am a physicist who got into astrology rather accidentally, if
> >there is such a thing as an accident. So please tell me if that
> >text was too hard to understand, or if contains some gross errors
> >or maybe if there is previous work that should be mentioned, etc.
> >
> >Alain Stalder
>
> RM:  I like the different way you have described the Signs. Quite a
> few parts of it will help people to recall the basic meanings more
> easily.
> Talking about "Psychological (Tropical, Geocentric, Astrology)" - I
> was never aware that such a title had been adopted until recently, and
> had thought that the "psychological" approach was merely a way for
> ex-students of psychology who also practised astrology to relate to
> each other or their clients. After all, it would be quite pointless to
> use some of the language of psychology with less-educated clients :-)
>
> What will we have next - Realistic astrology, Standard English
> astrology, Cocktail astrology, Man-in-the-street astrology, Odds-based
> astrology, Questionnaire astrology, New-Age astrology, Good-News
> astrology, Multiple-Choice astrology, Comprehensible astrology?
> Where will it end?
>
> Ray

Thank you very much for the reply. One thing that I associate
with psychological astrology and which goes beyond "astrology
done by psychologists", is the aim to go deeper, to go beyond
what (they view as) superficial simplistic descriptions of the
star signs. It may be a somewhat bold statement, but in my
understanding this is an important step in astrology towards
modern science, away from merely describing nature towards
explaining it.

Let me explain what I mean by comparing it with what happened
with astronomy (with an "n") a few hundred years ago. Until
Newton, astronomers simply observed where the planets where when
in the sky and then used that information to extrapolate where
they would be in the future. Whether that was using epicycles in
a geocentric view or circles and later ellipses by Copernicus and
Kepler, the focus was on description.

That changed radically with Newton. What Newton described was the
forces that act on planets, it described their *motivation* to
move. From the forces between masses one can then determine the
accelerations acting on the masses (Force divided by mass gives
acceleration). From the acceleration, the velocity and finally
the position of a planet can be determined.

Similarly, psychological astrology tries to describe the
psychological motivations of people to rather do certain things
that others in given situation. Of course, what is measured is in
both cases (astrology/psychology and astronomy) what can be seen
and heard. (Even in physics forces are not measured directly, but
usually translated to a change of position, say of a spring, like
a lever etc.)

In my understanding, the importance of motivation in
psychological astrology comes from the fact that it was created
essentially by people with Pluto in Leo. That is also where I see
my simpler model of the twelve star signs that I described in the
original post. Since I am from the generation with Pluto in Virgo
(in fact I was born just a few weeks after the Uranus-Pluto
conjunction in Virgo in 1966), the simple model I made can be
seen as part of the analysis of the harvest that Leo has
generated during the summer (like fruits grow in summer and later
in summer the harvest is brought in, sorted out, and stacked in).

It is always hard to predict the future, but with the generation
with Pluto in Virgo starting to speak out more in public, the
number of categories is probably more likely to increase than
not. If I am not mistaken, I have already heard the term "new age
astrology", but "new age" has been combined with many things
anyway.

From other posts, I assume that you are have some interest in
scientific tests of astrology. In that sense, my next post that I
am about to write might be interesting, as it needs less precise
birth times than for testing Gauqelin's Mars effect (in fact, in
most cases the birth *date* should be sufficient), and, yet, it
makes quite detailed predictions, based on just a very simple
extension to the model...

Anybody else who would like to comment on my original post ? (or
maybe on this one ?) As a physicist I know a lot less people than
professional counselors do, so it would be very helpful for me to
hear how well my models fit in people's personal experience.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Planets and Family Relations
Date: Sat 14 Sep 2002 21:09:34 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-046388.11030714092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In this post I would like to focus on just one of the many things
that planets influence in a birth chart, although it may be an
important one. As far as I can see, it is widely compatible with
current views of the planets, only a little bit more specific.
But let me get concrete: The idea is simply that planets
influence the relations to family members that are commonly
associated with the corresponding planet.

Here are the hypotheses one after the other:

a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
children.

b) The influence of the sun is similar: It influences how
children behave towards their fathers and how fathers behave
towards their children.

c) This relative behaviour remains the same, even if the children
become adults and eventually parents themselves. They will still
behave like sun/moon towards their fathers/mothers.

d) The relative behaviour also extends beyond physical parents to
people who assume a parental role, like a step father/mother or a
teacher.

e) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards siblings.

f) Mars influences how one likes to behave towards male friends
of roughly the same generation (unless they are siblings). This
specifically includes how one likes to behave towards male
lovers.

f) Accordingly, Venus influences how one likes to behave towards
female friends of roughly the same generation (unless they are
siblings). This specifically includes how one likes to behave
towards female lovers.

g) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards people
fighting for the same lover. (I say this because siblings also
fight for the love of their parents). In other words, if, say,
two men who are friends fall in love with the same woman, they
will typically start to behave in a different way towards each
other.

Now, of course, I am aware that a lot more things influence how
people relate to each other, like the ascendent for people who do
not know each other very well or the relative aspects between
people's planets (i.e. synastry). I am also aware that meanings
of planets are much broader than what I wrote about above.

However, in my limited experience the above model already says a
lot about some essential family relations and hence might be well
suited for experimental tests of astrology. I see a possible
experiment as follows: Choose a thousand families (maybe
including close friends) and hand out questionnaires to them in
which each member of the family separately has to answer the same
questions about how family members behave towards each other.

For example, you would ask the mother how her son behaves towards
her, towards his father, brother, etc. You would ask her simple
questions like "Is he generally open towards you (mostly
yes/sometimes yes and sometimes not/mostly not) ?" and the
corresponding questions about the other members of the family.

The word "generally" is important here, as also the current
positions of planets around the time the questionnaires are
answered would have some influence on relative behavior.

Now, let me mention two potential advantages of such a test: a)
You get a lot of data. If you ask, say, 25 questions per
relation, and choose families (plus close friends) with a total
of 10 people, you get roughly 40 relations, i.e. 25x40=1000
answers per family. With 1000 families, you get 1 million
answers. If that fits well, it constitutes a very convincing
result. b) You do not need accurate birth times. Except for the
moon, typically the birth *date* is sufficient. If the sign the
moon or another planet is in, is unsure, it is simply excluded
from the analysis of the data.

So tell me, how does this sound to professional astrologers who
know probably already a thousand families quite in detail ? Is
the model too simple or does it essentially correspond to your
experience, maybe not in all respects that would be needed to
help a client, but clearly enough to convince a rather
sceptically minded person, or even only the client ?

Alain Stalder

--

PS: I know that many people are rather busy at the moment with
pursuing their own agendas (I am no exception there, either). I
think this is at least partially because Uranus is near the end
of Aquarius. This looks to me like the old man who absolutely
wants to pull through some final things, before "dying" next
spring when things will dissolve into many possibilities again,
once Uranus enters Pisces.

So, maybe if you would be interested in principle, but just have
no time at the moment, maybe you would like to come back to these
posts next spring or so. For that, simply remembering the word
"exactphilosophy" now will do. Later on, you can then go to
http://groups.google.com and search for posts to
alt.astrology.moderated that contain the word "exactphilosophy".
That should make this post and others by me (plus replies)
reappear again.

Subject: Re: Planets and Family Relations
Date: Sun 15 Sep 2002 13:37:33 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A69C08.10315115092002@news.bluewin.ch>

I took the freedom to change the order in the text.

> >PS: I know that many people are rather busy at the moment with
> >pursuing their own agendas (I am no exception there, either). I
> >think this is at least partially because Uranus is near the end
> >of Aquarius. This looks to me like the old man who absolutely
> >wants to pull through some final things, before "dying" next
> >spring when things will dissolve into many possibilities again,
> >once Uranus enters Pisces.
>
> RM: The world is just moving progressively faster - that's all.
> I doubt that people's business has anything to do with Uranus.
> Perhaps when suitable major transits arrive, an awakening will occur
> whereby the masses realise that nothing much has changed over the
> centuries, and that most people are still all slaves to the powers
> that be -- even if we DO own a microwave oven and a tv set :-)>

I am quite suspicious about your two first sentences. Sure,
Aquarius likes progress, but he is also focused as a fixed sign
on progress within certain boundaries. Since he represents an old
man, there are certain things that are not reconsidered, that are
not reflected upon; they are simply taken for granted from
previous experience. Aquarius tends to reject things that do not
fit into his Weltbild quite quickly, without thinking much.

There I see Aquarius opposite to Gemini, the first Air sign,
which represents the curious child who likes to look at new
things from all kinds of angles, likes to reflect on how things
might be.

Opposite of Gemini in the Zodiac is Sagittarius, who again
represents an old man too, this time as the last Fire sign.
Sagittarius has lots of overview of many things, which is again
sort of a look at a surface (overview is looking at things from
above, at their surface). Sagittarius also shares the quickness
of Gemini. In my experience, Sagittarius without the wound of
Chiron would not be interested much in looking deeper into
things, in considering things for a longer time and in depth.

Judging from the posting times at groups.google.com, your reply
came only 2h20min after my post, which is hardly enough time to
reconsider some things that might potentially have become rather
stiff believed experience. So, this makes me quite suspicious of
whether your reply comes from a genuine effort to reconsider
things based on psychological reality or maybe just mainly from
conclusions that have been made many years ago already.

Maybe I am too suspicious, but it appears that what I said in my
post is confirming itself - people just seem not to be willing at
the moment only to step a little bit back and look at things with
an open mind.

> >In this post I would like to focus on just one of the many things
> >that planets influence in a birth chart, although it may be an
> >important one. As far as I can see, it is widely compatible with
> >current views of the planets, only a little bit more specific.
> >But let me get concrete: The idea is simply that planets
> >influence the relations to family members that are commonly
> >associated with the corresponding planet.
> >
> >Here are the hypotheses one after the other:
> >
> >a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
> >mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> >birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
> >the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> >of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> >children.
>
> RM: I'm convinced that people relate to all others according to:
> (a) Their own horoscopes
> (b) The other person's chart
> (c) Education (which obviously modifies (a) + (b).
> (d) Previous personal experience.
>
> So I doubt that there would be any special means of communication,
> like the things you are suggesting.
> [.....]

Here I am again quite suspicious. What I am proposing is part of
(a) and (b). I do not doubt the influence of (c) and (d).

What I am missing is a genuine and fresh attempt to compare how
family members relate to each other. Sometimes I suspect that
astrologers are especially hesitant to apply astrology to
themselves and their families. The most direct way to get a
feeling whether there is something to what I am saying, would be
to apply it to oneself, e.g. to how one behaves towards the own
mother and to how the own mother behaves towards oneself. Doing
something like that is not something that is done in a few
minutes. There may be unconscious barriers and without a deeper
aim to look at how things really are, I remain suspicious of
whether people just choose the easier way out by quickly
rejecting things at the first occasion.

Your last sentence seems to apply directly to my document at
http://www.exactphilosophy.net . It is quite an open point (also
to me who proposed it) whether there are long-range emotional
connections between people. But some questions nag me about this;
some common answers seem not convincing.

If two people are in love, they often experience this as a
connection that exists between them. If one of the two leaves the
room, the feeling of love remains.

If you asked a mother whether she would feel anything when her
child had a grave accident, somewhere else in town, would she
answer that she would not feel anything ?

Of course, currently the scientific answer would be that these
feelings come from the *wish* to be connected, not from an actual
connection.

On the other hand, astrologers often explain astrology as some
sort of connection between people on earth and stars and planets
in the sky. So, you can apparently take three paths here:

a) There are no long range interactions - then how comes that
astrology fits quite well with how people are ? (That is not a
scientific result at the moment either, but in my experience
things fit very well).

b) There are long range interactions, but only between people on
earth, not to the actual stars. That would explain astrology as a
psychological phenomenon only, without influence from the stars.
It would also explain why somebody who is born at the beginning
of spring and hence has the sun *astronomically* in Pisces is
considered Aries by astrology - namely because astrology is a
cultural, psychological phenomenon. It would also explain why
chinese astrology, for example, uses a totally different way to
determine how people are, which would in that case mostly apply
to Chinese, not to Europeans etc.

c) There are long range interactions, even to the stars - how
would that fit with precession and different cultures with
different astrologies, as explained above ?

I do not trust a) and c) much, unless somebody can provide some
significant other arguments. This leaves me with b). Moreover, b)
explains also quite a few more phenomena, even though those have
not been scientifically confirmed either, still giving b) rather
more credibility than not.

> >However, in my limited experience the above model already says a
> >lot about some essential family relations and hence might be well
> >suited for experimental tests of astrology. I see a possible
> >experiment as follows: Choose a thousand families (maybe
> >including close friends) and hand out questionnaires to them in
> >which each member of the family separately has to answer the same
> >questions about how family members behave towards each other.
>
> RM: I have the impression that questionnaires can very easily be
> inadequate unless the answers which are sought, are facts; and
> therefore a proposition like yours could easily be inadequate if
> trials and a LOT of thought went into the questions.
> >
> >For example, you would ask the mother how her son behaves towards
> >her, towards his father, brother, etc. You would ask her simple
> >questions like "Is he generally open towards you (mostly
> >yes/sometimes yes and sometimes not/mostly not) ?" and the
> >corresponding questions about the other members of the family.
>
> RM: People are not that honest - even f they DO know the answers.
> >
> >The word "generally" is important here, as also the current
> >positions of planets around the time the questionnaires are
> >answered would have some influence on relative behavior.
> >
> >Now, let me mention two potential advantages of such a test: a)
> >You get a lot of data. If you ask, say, 25 questions per
> >relation, and choose families (plus close friends) with a total
> >of 10 people, you get roughly 40 relations, i.e. 25x40=1000
> >answers per family. With 1000 families, you get 1 million
> >answers. If that fits well, it constitutes a very convincing
> >result. b) You do not need accurate birth times. Except for the
> >moon, typically the birth *date* is sufficient. If the sign the
> >moon or another planet is in, is unsure, it is simply excluded
> >from the analysis of the data.
>
> RM: We all have different approaches, but I would be more inclined to
> seek voluntary comment and (somehow) collate what was being said. I
> would also be seeking facts, if the idea was to get something that
> resembled a scientific study.

Thanks a lot for some concrete suggestions. As a physicist, I most
probably lack some experience about what is feasible. I will think
about it a bit more, so let me just make a few quick remarks that
came to my mind when reading your replies.

a) What is better, to chose to measure things that can be measured
objectively or else to predict what people will say, i.e. trying
to take into account that some people will lie or see things
differently than they are ?

b) I think it is important to choose really good questions, and
to test them with a handful of families. If the fit with lots of
families is good afterwards, I see no way how the questions could
bias the family members who all get the same questions in all
families. Moreover, the questions should essentially come from a
simple model of the star signs (like mine), they should be based
on as little assumptions as possible; that will make them a lot
more credible to scientists. The less parameters a theory has,
the more easily it is confirmed.

c) I guess collecting voluntary comment might really be the
better way to go. One could probably quite randomly collect
things from all kinds of people that know each other quite well.
Maybe some more private written communications like personal
letters or e-mail might be suitable.

> >So tell me, how does this sound to professional astrologers who
> >know probably already a thousand families quite in detail ? Is
> >the model too simple or does it essentially correspond to your
> >experience, maybe not in all respects that would be needed to
> >help a client, but clearly enough to convince a rather
> >sceptically minded person, or even only the client ?
> >
> >Alain Stalder
>
> RM: Astrologers often express the view that the best way to learn
> astrology is to read as many charts as they can handle -  whether
> fully or partially. I think it goes without saying that the second
> best way to learn, is to listen to other (credible) astrologers and
> gradually pick up some of their best advice from their experiences.
> It's nice of course to hear some of the speculation about how certain
> chart factors ~might~ work, but there's nothing like real-life
> examples to bring it all together.

Robert Hand wrote an essay titled "On Creating a Science of
Astrology" (published in "Essays on Astrology", Whitford Press,
1982). In that essay, he compares current astrology to a craft.
There are lots of people who master the craft, but they still
mostly do not know consciously what they know. Robert Hand
compares the current situation in astrology to how chemistry was
a few hundred years ago.

At the onset, chemistry looks like something very complex,
without much structure. You can take two powders and heat them
and then get, say, a blue liquid. The substances you mix can be
totally different from what comes out when they combine. But
scientists got nature to answer lots of little questions, like in
what ratio do you have to mix substances to get 100% of the new
substance and nothing of the original substance left. Through
many, many tests the periodic table of the elements evolved and
explanations how other substances are composed of these elements.
Mathematical theories behind chemistry allow to predict the
energies needed to combine or split substances, etc.

I see no fundamental reason why some essential parts of astrology
could be analyzed in a similar way, simply by asking nature a few
simple questions.

Astrology is mainly a female science, at least its psychological
aspects. Women start already very early in life to observe how
others are and how they relate to them. They spend a lot more
time than men thinking about what others think about them and
about others. But women are also not very analytic. They often
have little interest in understanding things too logically and
consciously. Physics is almost the counterexample. A physical
theory is pure logic (mathematics) based on reality.

One more thing: In chemistry, it was important to separate
chemistry from alchemy, from astrology, from some psychological
beliefs about the elements etc. Similarly, it may be necessary to
separate astrology from the stars, at least temporarily, to
consider it as merely a man-made, psychological, cultural
construct. Otherwise, it is very unlikely to say the least that
many scientists will take a look at it.

However, sometimes I suspect that people are quite happy with the
way things are. Scientists seem to want to preserve a world where
every thought is conscious and logical, astrologers seem to want
to preserve a world that is principally not analyzable by
science, something that, say, "transcends" reality. This may be a
bit exaggerated and not correct for everybody, but the suspicion
remains.

Any feedback ?

(So far, no woman has ever answered to any of my posts on these
subjects. Are things just to complicated to say something about,
or is there fear to write ? Fear to have to face some issues
consciously, fear to lose some of the beauty of astrology by
allowing it to have a more simple and definite structure ?)

Alain Stalder


> >So, maybe if you would be interested in principle, but just have
> >no time at the moment, maybe you would like to come back to these
> >posts next spring or so. For that, simply remembering the word
> >"exactphilosophy" now will do. Later on, you can then go to
> >http://groups.google.com and search for posts to
> >alt.astrology.moderated that contain the word "exactphilosophy".
> >That should make this post and others by me (plus replies)
> >reappear again.
>
> I don't wish to discourage you at all - even if it sounds like it.
>
> Ray

As a physicist, the only thing that counts for me in the end is
what experiments will say, what nature will say. Opinions, including
mine, are of secondary importance. Of course, indirectly, it is
important to interest people enough to make the effort and take
the time to perform some experiments instead of others.
In some sense, with the moon in Aries, I am quite impatient to
see things tested, but in others I have lots of time. In that
respect, the most important thing for me at the moment is to stake
the claim, but also to get people a little bit to start reconsidering
and questioning some things that they now take for granted.

PS: This post was also written within just a few hours, and
Mercury is now retrograde, which may explain the partially
reverse order in which I responded to comments, and this
recursive paragraph, too.

Subject: Re: Planets and Family Relations
Date: Mon 16 Sep 2002 15:39:39 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-1956EF.12133816092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3d84aba3_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
 "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:

[big snip]

Thank you very much for the feedback and the suggestions.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Planets and Family Relations
Date: Mon 16 Sep 2002 15:40:29 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C502B5.12144016092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <am28nl$cag$1@reader08.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-046388.11030714092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> > a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
> > mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> > birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
> > the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> > of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> > children.
>
> I don't know about the child's behaviour towards mother, although I agree
> with mother's behaviour towards child.
> I was taught that the Moon's placing shows how the child, by response,
> experiences 'mother', which may differ considerably to how the child would
> wish mother could and should be to fulfil the child's own Moon needs.
>
> Would not the functions of those planets in aspect to the moon show the
> child's behaviour pattern towards mother rather than the sign in which Moon
> is placed? E.G. Moon in Taurus needs ' to feel mum is there for me'  with
> the stability, shoulder hug, tea and cookies after school and, preferably, a
> well-filled purse it can rely on for its physical needs. But if Mars is
> square from Leo/Aquarius, mum might be seen as the dictatorial parent who
> requires to be proud of the child's accomplishments through its fending for
> itself, rather than who (s)he is; or, mum is felt to be so intent on her own
> independence that she will not connect to her child's needs and lets it
> wander freely. The result? Child 'behaves' with a strong individual streak
> of its own through Mars in Leo, or experiences a feeling of estrangement
> from/towards mother.
>
> Christine.

[...]

Thank you very much for a deeper look. I have the moon in Aries
and my mother has the moon in Cancer. Towards her, I never
hesitated to say when I did not like the food or something else.
I see also a similar behaviour in me towards women of roughly her
age, like female teachers I had in school or so. My moon is at a
square to my mothers moon and also to her Mars in Capricorn, and
in conjunction with her Saturn in Aries. I remember that if my
father was not around for lunch, me and my mother would often get
into arguments. Usually, that was because I was judging what she
said too literally and logically, because she would randomly use
words like "because" or "nevertheless" when there was often no
such logical connection. Today, I have learned to understand how
that is meant and arguments are a lot rarer.

What I want to say with that is that the obvious appears often
not to be the main source of psychological trouble. I think it
was Freud who discovered that smaller, but unconscious and
suppressed feelings are often the source of psychological
problems. For example, somebody who cared for and nurtured a
close relative who was seriously sick and eventually died from
the disease, will be essentially sad when the loved person dies,
but subliminally also relieved because he/she now gains some
freedom again, to do more things that he/she likes. People are
often ashamed of such feelings that may have already existed when
nurturing the other, and may even feel guilty of not having cared
enough. If such feelings are suppressed too much, they can result
in psychological problems.

In that sense, I think the main focus of an
astrological/psychological counselor is not much on the obvious,
on the surface that is visible to everybody, but to feel deeper
in order to find out what hurts. Similarly, a physician typically
feels different places on one's body, say on the chest and the
belly, while constantly asking "does that hurt ?". In that sense,
I think relative aspects are probably much more likely the source
of trouble in the relation between two people. The moon in a
child has to be somewhere, if it is in Aries that by itself is
maybe often just as little a problem than when it would be in
another sign. What makes the difference is how that moon relates
to the planets in the other person (but is, of course, also
influenced by the signs and houses all the planets are in).

In science, people are usually looking for definite answers, for
yes/no answers from nature. In psychology and astrology this
seems to be different; how somebody is and feels seems to be the
sum of many influences of different strengths that add like waves
in the ocean. There is always room to go deeper and discover some
new insights by going deeper.

In conclusion, I think scientists want some big waves, want the
obvious, whereas a psychologist and counselor has to find the
hidden things that hurt. In that sense, maybe the statement "the
moon is how one likes to behave towards the mother and towards
women of older generations who assume a motherly role, like e.g.
a female teacher" is one of the big waves. In my experience it
appears to fit quite well. That experience is based on roughly a
dozen people, which may appear not to be much, but if it would
not fit, wouldn't there be at least one clear counterexample
within these twelve people or so ?

Let me broaden the perspective quite a bit for two paragraphs (I
have planets in the 12th house, so that comes naturally to me).
Chapter 6 of "The Astrology of Fate" by Liz Greene is titled "The
Creation of the World" and describes how Zeus approaches Rhea in
disguise, how he says that he will take charge of things now,
that there will be recorded history, that he is now strong enough
to even tell triple lies, etc. But in the end Rhea succeeds in
preserving the three most important things under female control,
wind, death and destiny, without Zeus noticing it; that is why
she smiles in the end. Rhea is Earth, she stands (among many
other possible interpretations, of course) for the Age of Taurus
that is succeeded by the Age of Aries (symbolized by Zeus, the
planet Jupiter that is also associated with Sagittarius). Now, at
the moment, another female age is about to end, the Age of Pisces
and will be succeeded by the Age of Aquarius. I think it is
unavoidable that in such an age people will individually gain
more insights into their psyche, from scientific progress. But I
also think that these insights, will remain superficial in many
respects, although nobody may notice that for a long time. Since
these insights will come from science, they will describe mainly
the bigger waves, not the deeper insights. And there will
probably always be some skeptics who are afraid of the depths of
psyche and will prefer to deny their existence.

The two female elements, Earth and Water are literally heavier
than the male one, Fire and Air. A male diver can dive quite
deeply if he takes oxygen (Air) and light (Fire) with him, but he
can only go as deep as half of the oxygen and battery power
allow, then he has to turn back and go up again - he cannot live
for a long time under the surface of the sea, which symbolizes
the unconscious, collective parts of human psyche.

Getting back to the original question, is my hypothesis a rather
big wave, as it feels to me, and (maybe consequently) also one
that does not run into the danger of confronting many people with
deeper, suppressed psychological issues ? i.e. could it become
part of everyday knowledge without doing unnecessary harm, could
it become something that allows people to understand each other a
little bit better and so maybe to resolve some minor conflicts
or, else, for example, allow lovers to tease each other more
effectively ? Or is it merely a small wave ? (I assume the
hypothesis cannot be wrong altogether, because the sign a planet
is in, always has some influence in synastry.) No matter whether
it is a big wave or a small wave, it will not exclude the
existence of other waves that influence the same...

As another concrete example, at the moment Mars is in Virgo and
Venus in Scorpio. According to two other hypotheses that I
presented in the original post, that would mean that at the
moment, both men and women would behave more like Scorpio than
usual towards women and both men and women would behave more like
Virgo than usual towards men. I may be wrong, but think I can
recognize this in recent news posts, again probably not as a
source of trouble (about that individual aspects would very
probably tell a lot more), but as part of the general
underground.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Poll: Do you believe the Universe is a CA?
Date: Mon 16 Sep 2002 20:27:39 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research,sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A6BCA5.20243214092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <6a3d99a1.0209121313.1761d385@posting.google.com>,
 ppetrov@hotmail.com (Plamen Petrov) wrote:

> Do you believe the Universe is a cellular automaton?

I remember reading a paper by Feynman about "Simulating Physics
with a Computer", which was, as far as I remember, from an early
conference related to quantum computing. As I remember the paper,
he investigated whether a cellular automaton where the state of a
cell at t+1 is given by the state of close cells at an earlier
time with some probability, would not be able to reproduce
quantum mechanics, as then some probabilities would have to be
negative. I think he was using Wigner functions in that argument,
and he also speculated (if I remember correctly) whether you
could include influence from the future and then "shake things
down" to a state that was minimal with respect to some quantity,
but without getting any more specific.

Do you allow for nonlocal influences in your definition of a
cellular automaton ? Or is it broader than what Feynman used in
another way ?

Alain Stalder


>
> Please answer the question by voting on the following Web page:
>
> http://ppetrov.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/003/poll_center.htm
>
> Thank you for your vote!
>
> ---
> Plamen Petrov
> http://digitalphysics.org

Subject: Re: Planets and Family Relations
Date: Tue 17 Sep 2002 05:30:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A6E52E.21032016092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <am4t91$cc0$1@reader12.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

> > > Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> > > astalder-046388.11030714092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > > [..]
> > > > a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
> > > > mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> > > > birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
> > > > the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> > > > of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> > > > children.

[...]

> Using your example a), I have Moon in Capricorn conjunct my mother's Sun..
> According to your theory, this would mean that I liked to behave towards my
> mother in a Capricornian fashion; cool, distant, harsh, hierarchial, and
> protective manner. Yet nothing is further from the truth. I 'felt', or my
> impression of my mother was that way, whereas I would have loved the warmer,
> cuddly, affectionate type person that probably every child desires. My
> mother's Moon is conjunct my Taurus Sun. Thank goodness other parts of our
> charts compensated in other ways.
>
> People with Moon in Pisces often 'feel' their mother wasn't there at all for
> them. I remember one client ( Aries Sun) saying that his mother was so busy
> being an angel for everyone else, that she was never in the house long
> enough to notice him or his needs. (He became head of an institute for
> retarded children). My Pisces Moon sister was evacuated for 6 years during
> the war and brought up by a wonderful 'pseudo' mother. She ' feels ' that my
> mother made so many personal sacrifices on behalf of her children. Yet this
> does not seem to go with your theory regarding a Moon in Pisces behaviour
> pattern towards mother.

[...]
> Christine.
>

Sorry if I only reply to part of your post for the moment. It will take
some time for me to look at things from your perspective, especially
since I have Saturn at the end of Pisces, so taking the place of the
other does not happen naturally to me and takes lots of time and effort
(probably at least until Mercury moves forward again, maybe longer).

Typically, I first feel what is right and what not; afterwards I analyze.
What you write about your family left me a feeling of doubt. After
thinking a bit about it, the following things started to disturb me:

- The words "cool" and "distant" are not things that I would attribute
  to Capricorn. Structured, hierarchical, forcing to decide, yes, but
  never without having some hidden fun in doing so and never without
  adapting to other's needs during that process.

- Taurus, on the other hand, seems to me often to be insensitive to
  others feelings, because his world view is so much based on what he
  can immediately see and touch, not from any bad intention.

- Some things that I would see with your moon in Capricorn towards
  your mother, would be to try (maybe unsuccessfully) to create some
  structures, something reliable, to try to force some decisions from
  the mother, to try to plan ahead.

- A mother with the moon in Taurus would rather change her attitude
  towards you quickly, just going by what feels right at a given
  moment, without much consistence or structure that one could
  rely on, and there might be a lack to understand when the child
  does not feel well even if all visible and touchable factors have
  been taken care of.

- For all I know, Pisces is almost never wrong about judging other
  people. So, without any additional information, I would take your
  sister's statement for real (sorry, but that is how it feels to me),
  showing that your sister understands and forgives your mother,
  exactly because she (your sister) has her moon in Pisces.

I do not want to force things being in a specific way, but I am also
pressing for nature to decide, that is what a physicist does. That
is very similar to Capricorn (compared to Aquarius who sometimes tends
to force his view of the world). I will also look at things from your
point of view, but tell me, how does what I wrote feel to fit ?

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Planets and Family Relations
Date: Wed 18 Sep 2002 02:45:06 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A2FBF1.16311617092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <am708j$db4$2@reader13.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-A6E52E.21032016092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> > Sorry if I only reply to part of your post for the moment. It will take
> > some time for me to look at things from your perspective, especially
> > since I have Saturn at the end of Pisces, so taking the place of the
> > other does not happen naturally to me and takes lots of time and effort
> > (probably at least until Mercury moves forward again, maybe longer).
>
> I can understand that a strong Pisces/12th house nature has difficulty with
> the perspective of a strong practical and analytically-minded Earthy
> type.......and vice versa :-)
> I am not familiar with all of traditional astrology's teachings, but isn't
> Saturn well placed in Pisces? Does it not provide the reality and mastership
> of/in/to/and behind the mystical fantasy world and add structure and
> discipline to this world of non-form? Otherwise, all sense of reality is
> lost?
>  I understand Pisces to be ' the' sign to empathise with the feelings of
> others; Moon in Aries has more difficulty doing so. It would seem to imply
> adversaries within one's own nature.
>
> > Typically, I first feel what is right and what not; afterwards I analyze.
> > What you write about your family left me a feeling of doubt. After
> > thinking a bit about it, the following things started to disturb me:
> >
> > - The words "cool" and "distant" are not things that I would attribute
> >   to Capricorn. Structured, hierarchical, forcing to decide, yes, but
> >   never without having some hidden fun in doing so and never without
> >   adapting to other's needs during that process.
> >
> The Giddy Goat, as one of my tutors referred to it?
> Of course Moon in Capricorn (as in the sign and not as reflection of any
> particular person) can adapt to other's needs but, imho, it will do it
> through its rock solid strong sense of (parental) duty, responsibility and,
> in some cases, obligation to others to provide a roof over the head, food in
> the stomach, clothes on the back and protection from the cold. It cannot
> provide warmth of feeling because Capricorn is not a feeling sign. That's
> why it's at loggerehads with the fire signs, which are natural square,
> quincunx, and semi-sextile from it and have to work very hard to provide
> enough heat to fry the egg on its surface.
>
>    > - Taurus, on the other hand, seems to me often to be insensitive to
> >   others feelings, because his world view is so much based on what he
> >   can immediately see and touch, not from any bad intention.
> >
> I'll try to be objective here :-)
> I think it was Linda Goodman who wrote that Taurus is the most 'giving' of
> the signs. Admittedly Taurus is a receptive sign, as are all the Earth/Water
> signs, but it will show that it cares through tangibility and touch. It will
> want to touch you in some way, treat you to a meal, or will bring a present
> to express its feelings. If,as a Fire sign, one expects passion of action,
> or as an Air sign, words to carry meaning or, as a Water sign, emotions to
> carry weight, they will be short-changed by and with Taurus. The passion of
> action in "I love you' and 'Sorry' ARE only actions or words, and emotions
> are based on feelings and not fact. None mean anything to Taurus without
> some tangible evidence that it is so, by way of a kiss, flowers, or a few
> tears :-). This doesn't make Taurus insensitive. It is an Earth sign; it's
> its nature.
> Doesn't astrology teach that you may never condone a person's natural nature
> because it may not be the same as yours....and vice cersa?
>
> - Some things that I would see with your moon in Capricorn towards
> >   your mother, would be to try (maybe unsuccessfully) to create some
> >   structures, something reliable, to try to force some decisions from
> >   the mother, to try to plan ahead.
>
> Why would Moon in Capricorn want ' to force some decisions from the mother
> to try to plan ahead.' ? That sounds very much like Aries talking.
>
> > - A mother with the moon in Taurus would rather change her attitude
> >   towards you quickly,
>
> I think we have been reading different astrology books. Moon in Taurus is
> the most well-placed, offering the most reliable and stable of attitudes
> (depending upon aspects to it) for the otherwise natural but changeable
> feelings inherent in the Moon's nature.
>
> just going by what feels right at a given
> >   moment, without much consistence or structure that one could
> >   rely on, and there might be a lack to understand when the child
> >   does not feel well even if all visible and touchable factors have
> >   been taken care of.
>
> You are expecting that of a sign which it cannot provide. Aspects of nature
> to the sign from other signs will or will not provide that which is not part
> of its own nature. E.G. I have very little water in my chart, so it is wrong
> to say that I am insensitive to your pain if I cannot ' feel' it with you,
> whilst I rush to the band-aid box to provide the aspirin, ointment and
> adhesive plaster that might physically help to take it away.
>
> > - For all I know, Pisces is almost never wrong about judging other
> >   people. So, without any additional information, I would take your
> >   sister's statement for real (sorry, but that is how it feels to me),
> >   showing that your sister understands and forgives your mother,
> >   exactly because she (your sister) has her moon in Pisces.
> >
>
> Pisces is the sign that can 'forgive all', so this would imply that ONLY
> through the eyes of Pisces, the
> (m)other has done something that needs to be forgiven by the child. Yet, the
> (m)other may have been acting out of a million different good reasons that
> the Moon in Pisces does not see because it responds only through sensitivity
> of feeling and not fact of/or reality( which Saturn in Pisces can provide,
> of course). In my examples, both people, in adulthood, were able to reflect
> upon and empathise with the actions of the(m)other. They may have 'felt'
> lost, abandoned, unseen, or whatever, but this does not make it so. Maybe
> there is need for Moon in Pisces to forgive its own feelings towards the
> (m)other ?
>
> > I do not want to force things being in a specific way, but I am also
> > pressing for nature to decide,
>
> I have always used the interaction between the forces of nature as a way to
> work with horoscope charts myself.
>
> that is what a physicist does. That
> > is very similar to Capricorn (compared to Aquarius who sometimes tends
> > to force his view of the world).
>
> As a sign, Aquarius 'knows' from within. It will not use force to express
> its views; it may simply go its own way, rather than along with all the
> views of the other 11 signs.
>
> I will also look at things from your
> > point of view, but tell me, how does what I wrote feel to fit ?
>
> I hope I've answered that, but I also have an inkling that you might be
> looking at astrology through subjective rather than objective eyes.
> There are so many different ways to translate astro. symbolism. Mine is
> basically from an Earth/Air point of view :-)
> Christine.
>
> > Alain Stalder

In physics, questions can be decided by asking nature.
Except when it comes to how to find out or judge new things
initially, in physics, there are no different schools of
thought or even only individual opinions who argue
about who is right. It cannot be proven that physics really
describes only "objective reality" (and not also partially
merely a consensus between physicists), but physics is
very probably the science where this is least likely.

There are things that you wrote with which I agree
and others with which I disagree, and some things
seem to be misunderstandings from your side and
others are probably misunderstandings from mine.
In mythology, Zeus and Hera appear to have a lot of fun
to argue incessantly about all kinds of issues.
This appears not to be what I like to do for a long time,
so let me just mention two things where I think you
might be quite a bit wrong (at least from where I am
standing):

Aries is the first Fire sign. According to my first post
titled "Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac",
he is mainly made of Earth. He also comes directly
after Pisces in the Zodiac, so he has the whole world
with all its possibilities behind him and under his feet.
Aries always argues based on immediate touchable
reality around him, i.e. based on Earth.

Aquarius will very well use force if he feels that someone
has betrayed his ideas. Take a look at how the two most
idealistic (and least realistic) forms of government of the
20th century, namely communism and fascism, treated people
who did not fit into the vision. I am well aware that there
is lots of good stuff in Aquarius and in his idealism, like
there is in every sign, but also every sign has its shadows
and since we are heading for Aquarius we should be well
aware of them. See also:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: 10Things Your Astrologer Knows
Date: Wed 18 Sep 2002 17:25:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.newage.astrology,alt.astrology.asian,alt.astrology.marketplace,alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-2E3107.08303518092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <a30c0b10.0209160756.666eacfb@posting.google.com>,
 kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:

> 10 Things your Astrologer will never Know
>  (C) 2001 Klaudio Zic tarant8l@users.tmok.com
>
>  In this short manifest we will discuss the basic things your
>  astrologer did not know. You know it by now so pass it on!
>
>  1
>  MOON
>  The Moon is the first to suffer miscalculation. The precise
>  position of the Moon (topocentric) saves the directional
>  astrologer roughly from half to one-and-a-half year of mistake
>  in whatever calculus involving arcs he saw you marriage.
>  When the Moon is in the Sextant constellation, it is not
>  in Cancer or in Leo, so both the vedic and the tropical
>  neighbor clearly suck. http://puck.dhs.org/aca/alumni/franz
>
>  2
>  SUN
>  Since my Sun is conjunct Antares in Scorpio, I'm a sun-scorpio
>  born Nov 28th 1957. If that's not clear, sorry pals. You must
>  roughly substract 23 days from your birth to know what sun
>  sign you _really_ are. Good news: tropical astrology persists
>  in most lower areas and you will get a tropical horoscope
>  when you order one. I'm a sag; O.K.?  http://puck.dhs.org/aca/catedre
[...]

I cannot exclude that different astrological systems work too,
but let me tell you for comparison how this looks from the point of
view of tropical geocentric astrology, and assuming that
astrology is mostly a psychological thing rather than directly
related to planets and stars.

In my view of Sagittarius, he represents psychologically the last
stage of a burning fire (see recent thread "Archetypes for the
Elements and the Zodiac"). This gives him a lot of overview,
which gives him a good (although somewhat superficial) overview
of how things are and also how they could be if only some people
would adapt a bit. With broad outlook into space, and assuming
that astrology is actually connected to planets and stars, I
assume that Sagittarius is likely to conclude that one should use
topocentric positions and not geocentric ones (especially for the
moon where the difference is greatest), and to use the actual
positions of constellations in order to determine star signs.

Scorpio, in contrast, as a water sign, would, in my view, rather
base his descisions on psychological reality, by examining
closely how people are and whether there are connections between
how they are and what different systems of astrology predict.

Your web site appears to show to me (among other things)
Sagittarius' interest (also as a mutable sign) in different and
unconnected visual images. Sure, it is black, but that alone does
not make Scorpio. I did not look at your birth chart (in
tropical, geocentric astrology), so maybe there would be some
indications of Scorpio or Pluto aspects in it, but it does not
feel very much like it to me. (I am very hesitant to look at
other people's charts unless they ask me specifically about it).
The openness of Sagittarius is another point, which would fit
(again in tropical, geocentric astrology) with the fact that you
gave the public your birth date without anybody asking for it.

Do you use different properties for Scorpio and Sagittarius than
what tropical astrology uses ? Or do you maybe not use
constellations as a whole at all, but rather the individual
stars ?

One more thing about tropical astrology: The detachment from
actual constellations became clear already before precession made
a significant difference. Already when the Greeks divided the
zodiac into twelve signs of equal length, astrology was
abstracted to some degree from the actual stars. (Note that in my
view all of this does not explicitly exclude direct influence
from planets and stars, but it would have to be less direct or
least less obvious).

I also took a quick look on the web and books about the mythology
of Antares. It appears that it's name comes from Ant-Ares, the
rival of Ares (Mars), because its brightness and red color are
similar to Mars, and also that it is placed at the heart of
Scorpio. In that sense, this reminds me of how in ancient times
the constellation of Scorpio included Libra, only during the age
of Aries, the sign of Aries (which is associated with Mars) got a
true opposite, namely Libra (Scorpio had already been the
opposite of Taurus). More abstractly, for me it appears also to
be that the separation of things into two things is similar to
the greek invention of logic where there is yes and no and also
more deeply to what happens during birth, where the unity of
mother and child becomes two.

There appear also to be even older connections that connect
Scorpio/Libra with Sagittarius (if I am not mistaken, the oldest
cultures only knew first one and then two or three huge
constellations on the sky, only later in history they fell apart
into smaller ones). Zeus, the god associated with Sagittarius, is
often connected with eagles that execute various tasks for him.
Now, the eagle or dragon used to be the same as Scorpio, if I am
not completely mistaken; at least there are several Sphinx
statues from the Age of Taurus that show eagle/dragon wings
combined with human faces (Aquarius) and elements of Taurus and
Leo, thus symbolizing the cardinal cross (the four points of the
compass) of that time.

Recently, Ray Murphy replied to a comment that I made about the
limitedness of Aquarius (where Uranus is now, representing the
conscious collective mind, in my view) that I would think
differently about that in the future and should search
groups.google.com then. I guess he will be right in his sense, as
lots of people are pushing lots of ideas, the only "problem"
appears to be to me that nobody is listening much (except in the
sense of rather superficially comparing things to their view).
But, of course, if people were listening more, they would produce
less, so I do not object in the end...

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Planets and Family Relations
Date: Wed 18 Sep 2002 23:55:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-51FFC1.19495218092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <am9jke$dh5$1@reader12.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

>
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-A2FBF1.16311617092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> > In mythology, Zeus and Hera appear to have a lot of fun
> > to argue incessantly about all kinds of issues.
>
> Man and Woman do the same :-).
>
> > This appears not to be what I like to do for a long time,
> > so let me just mention two things where I think you
> > might be quite a bit wrong (at least from where I am
> > standing):
> >
> And *this*, Alain, is my difficulty where the astrological teachings are
> concerned. " You are, or might be, wrong" is one of the astrological
> challenges I have to meet which stings the eyes whilst it makes the hairs at
> the back of my Taurean neck stand on end. I put it down to the Lilith/CH/ASC
> trine Sun but square aspect to MC/UR :-)
> I wish the many experienced astrological contributors to this NG would be as
> candid as you and tell me where, how, and why I am wrong, and where/how/and
> why they are right, so that I can change my perspective.
>
> A very respected ex-AAM poster said that an astrologer can interpret a chart
> only at the level (s)he her/himself has reached. My level 'is', if you can
> belive it, trying to bring together spirit/mind/body and soul as one.

Opposites and what unites them is a difficult issue. There appear
to be at least two drives, namely to unite and to take apart. It
appears to me that Zeus and Hera, and often men and women in
general, often prefer to avoid agreing on a common standpoint (at
least about some selected issues), because they like to argue
about things over and over again, as some kind of game. If they
would agree on too many things, they would lose their toys;
without disagreement, there is no need to talk. On the other
hand, some issues (or maybe all if you exclude some concrete
decisions and look at general questions only), can probably not
be decided at all in general terms, it is only so that reality
sometimes demands an answer.

In that sense, if one says something about a sign, and then
thinks deeper, one typically finds that also the contrary has
lots of justification, although one can maybe still be somewhat
specific about in which conditions which side will more likely
show.

In that sense, I also widely agree with what you said about Aries
further below in your post, and what you said about Aquarius is,
from my point of view, also part of the picture, but appears to
be too biased to stand on its own, without what I said and other
things - but, to some degree, this is always true. In that sense
what I wrote about Aquarius in my post was certainly also biased,
in order to make the point. Maybe the only somewhat universal
truths have the word "not" in them.

This brings me to the early Greek philosophers like Heraclitus
and also to Lao-Tse (who lived around the same time). Unlike
Aristotle, Plato, etc. the units are not fully decomposed in the
older writings, there is no fully developed logic yet. Heraclitus
and Lao-Tse often mention something and its opposite in the same
sentence and often use sentences with a "not" in it.

Some examples:
- Everything rests by changing (Heraclitus)
- Night and day, which Hesiod had made parent and child, are,
  and must always have been, essentially connected and
  interdependent (Heraclitus)
- The path up and down is one and the same (Heraclitus)
- The name that can be named is not the enduring and
  unchanging name (Lao-Tse)

Alain Stalder

Subject: Does Sagittarius come short in this newsgroup ? ;)
Date: Wed 18 Sep 2002 23:55:08 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-4D748E.19511518092002@news.bluewin.ch>

It appears that it is often said that Pisces come short, because
they do not fight for attention. So, tonite I searched
alt.astrology.moderated at groups.google.com for all twelve star
signs in order to see if that is measurably so. In other words, I
searched first for the keyword "Aries", then for "Taurus", etc.

Here are the results:

Sign         # of hits  deviation from mean

Aries:       ca. 3100   +5 %
Taurus:      ca. 3210   +8 %
Gemini:      ca. 2940   -8 %
Cancer:      ca. 3110   +5 %
Leo:         ca. 3580   +21%
Virgo:       ca. 3250   +10%
Libra:       ca. 2970   +0 %
Scorpio:     ca. 3870   +31%
Sagittarius: ca. 1590   -46% <==
Capricorn:   ca. 2190   -26%
Aquarius:    ca. 2910   -0 %
Pisces:      ca. 2830   -4 %
(average:    ca. 2962)

The lowest number of hits is for Sagittarius, whereas Pisces come
out rather average. Maybe the sample is too small; so I searched
first alt.astrology and then the whole web, with the following
results:

alt.astrology:

Aries:       ca. 14000  +0 %
Taurus:      ca. 16500  +18%
Gemini:      ca. 15200  +9 %
Cancer:      ca. 15300  +10%
Leo:         ca. 15000  +7 %
Virgo:       ca. 13900  -0 %
Libra:       ca. 13000  -7 %
Scorpio:     ca. 17100  +22%
Sagittarius: ca.  7400  -47% <==
Capricorn:   ca. 11300  -19%
Aquarius:    ca. 12300  -12%
Pisces:      ca. 16600  +19%
(average:    ca. 167'600)

web (google):

Aries:       ca. 114'000  -7 %
Taurus:      ca. 118'000  -3 %
Gemini:      ca. 115'000  -6 %
Cancer:      ca. 202'000  +65%
Leo:         ca. 146'000  +20%
Virgo:       ca. 105'000  -14%
Libra:       ca. 114'000  -7 %
Scorpio:     ca. 124'000  +2 %
Sagittarius: ca.  95'700  -22% <==
Capricorn:   ca. 105'000  -14%
Aquarius:    ca. 121'000  -1 %
Pisces:      ca. 106'000  -13%
(average:    ca. 122'000)

On the web, I searched using www.google.com for english pages
that contained, say, "Aries" plus the word "astrology". The high
number of hits for Cancer is probably still related to the
disease with the same name, but I did not check this in detail.

Sagittarius has the lowest number of hits in all three cases. Any
ideas why that might be ? Are there other words for Sagittarius
that are also common ? (I tried the same web search for
"Sagittarian" and "astrology" and only got 2660 hits). Or is
there a deeper reason behind this ?

I know this not exactly serious research, but it was still fun
to do.

Alain Stalder


While I am at it, here are also the search results for planets at
alt.astrology.moderated (there might again be a tendency that
the "bad guys" appear more often):

Sun:     14500
Moon:    10200
Mercury:  5530
Venus:    6120
Mars:     6980
Jupiter:  5280
Saturn:   7990 <==
Uranus:   5920
Neptune:  5280
Pluto:    7030 <==
Chiron:   2020

Subject: Re: Does Sagittarius come short in this newsgroup ? ;)
Date: Thu 19 Sep 2002 15:05:15 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-2D8E4C.06543719092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <NE7i9.348255$v53.17104355@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>,
 Empedocles <empedocles@paratwa.net> wrote:

[...]
>
> As for the Sagittarius matter, I have two possible explanations:
>
> 1) We're too busy telling everyone else what to think to talk much about
> ourselves. :)
> 2) It's the easiest sign to misspell. Did you try searching for
> "saggittarius" or "saggitarius"?
>
> ....and as for the number of references by plaent, personally I'm surprised
> Uranus didn't get more mention.
>

About 2), I searched again in alt.astrology.moderated and the web:

alt.astrology.moderated:

Sagitarius: 62
Saggitarius: 119
Saggittarius: 7
Sagittarius: 1600
Sagitarian: 2
Saggitarian: 3
Saggittarian: 0
Sagittarian: 300

Total: 2093 (-29%)

web:

Sagitarius: 951
Saggitarius: 1680
Saggittarius: 96
Sagittarius: 88'000

Sagitarian: 52
Saggitarian: 65
Saggittarian: 6
Sagittarian: 2610

Total: 93'500

(I appears that google.com has thrown out some data since
the last search).

I was also expecting Uranus to be mentioned more often.

About 1), maybe a survey of which signs posts would also
be interesting, but is also already a lot harder to do.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Does Sagittarius come short in this newsgroup ? ;)
Date: Thu 19 Sep 2002 15:05:18 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-1B6801.07004519092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3d89220c_2@news.chariot.net.au>,
 "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:

[...]
>
> RM: Very interesting. It's one more thing we can keep an eye on;
> although if we pursued this, it might be less biased if we selected
> only original mentioning of each Sign in each post - rather than
> counting reposted text.
> Any such manual counting would also pick up erroneous spelling and
> abbreviations.
>
> Ray
>

I agree, although the groups.google.com search machine is already
partially removing replies that are similar to the original post.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: 10Things Your Astrologer Knows
Date: Fri 20 Sep 2002 03:25:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-7F286C.20120719092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <astalder-2E3107.08303518092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

[...]

> I did not look at your birth chart (in
> tropical, geocentric astrology), so maybe there would be some
> indications of Scorpio or Pluto aspects in it, but it does not
> feel very much like it to me. (I am very hesitant to look at
> other people's charts unless they ask me specifically about it).

[...]

I took a lot at it, and I saw a sun-Pluto square, and ...
Mars in Scorio, bringing Ares and Scorpio together in
another way. Always amazing how different methods can
lead to very similar results; there appear often to be
more and deeper structures in the world than one would
expect...

I will take a look at where planets where relative to
the actual stars on the sky when I was born.

Thanks!

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Does Sagittarius come short in this newsgroup ? ;)
Date: Fri 20 Sep 2002 04:05:04 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-EF60E2.17471419092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <astalder-1B6801.07004519092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

> In article <3d89220c_2@news.chariot.net.au>,
>  "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
>
> [...]
> >
> > RM: Very interesting. It's one more thing we can keep an eye on;
> > although if we pursued this, it might be less biased if we selected
> > only original mentioning of each Sign in each post - rather than
> > counting reposted text.
> > Any such manual counting would also pick up erroneous spelling and
> > abbreviations.
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
> I agree, although the groups.google.com search machine is already
> partially removing replies that are similar to the original post.
>
> Alain Stalder
>

Sorry, what I wrote is not true. Only the listed posts are filtered,
but the number of found hits that google shows includes the
filtered posts too.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Does Sagittarius come short in this newsgroup ? ;)
Date: Fri 20 Sep 2002 05:06:09 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-2ADF48.18151519092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <20020919090408.10592.00006666@mb-cu.aol.com>,
 threesteve@aol.comno-spam (ThreeSteve) wrote:

> Very surprising to me since I once read that the software upon which the WWW
> is
> built was released on the internet (yes, there is/was an internet before
> html)
> on a date that would make the Web itself Sagittarian (sorry, I did not keep
> the
> date in my databank).
>

Maybe it would really not be a bad idea to use the internet
itself as a unit to test some predictions about star signs and
what they apply to; at least there is the adavantage of having
the largest possible amount of data in computer-ready form.

> At the risk of setting certain people off, perhaps it is because we Sags tend
> not to be "joiners" but are instead very independent.  We care more about our
> own ideas, studies, beliefs,  than we do about the regard of others.  You
> don't
> see as much crowing about the greatness of one's sign as you do with signs
> like.....we'll, I don't need the flames in my in box, so I'll just leave that
> one alone and let the Alain's data speak for itself.
>

I think Sagittarius is quite interested in the world, in watching
all kinds of things, it is only so that there are so many
intersting things that one can look at and think about so that
the individual things lose some of their specialty and interest.
I guess this is somewhat similar to how the other sign associated
with Jupiter, namely Pisces, sees the world.

> (Alain, are you confident of your google search?  Might Cancer's +65 be
> skewed
> by hits to the disease?)
>

I suspected that already in my original post. Hard to tell
without looking at things in detail. A modified search of the web
for Cancer+astrology+therapy yielded 39'000 hits, which hints
into the direction that most of the skew might really be due to
the disease.

> What I thought was too cute was the AAMOD result with Libra perfectly
> "balanced" with a standard deviation of 0.
>

That is something that I did not notice. Thanks for pointing out.

*Really nice, especially since that is something that cannot be
catched for sure by science.*

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: 10Things Your Astrologer Knows
Date: Fri 20 Sep 2002 05:26:14 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.newage.astrology,alt.astrology.marketplace
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-52A5B3.05261420092002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <a30c0b10.0209190940.47e876bf@posting.google.com>,
 kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:

> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:<astalder-2E3107.08303518092002@news.bluewin.ch>...
> > In article <a30c0b10.0209160756.666eacfb@posting.google.com>,
> >  kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:
> >
>
>  Roughly transcending signs and heading towards astronomy;)
>
>
>  Compliments, Claudio
>
>  http://207.88.74.110/pucklist

[...]


In article <a30c0b10.0209190935.668df58b@posting.google.com>,
 kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:

> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:<astalder-046388.11030714092002@news.bluewin.ch>...
> > In this post I would like to focus on just one of the many things
> > that planets influence
>
>  It's not the planets but the inorganic beings roughly connected
> SOMETIMES NOT AT ALL! with the planets
>
>
>   in a birth chart, although it may be an
> > important one. As far as I can see, it is widely compatible with
> > current views of the planets, only a little bit more specific.
> > But let me get concrete: The idea is simply that planets
> > influence the relations to family members that are commonly
>
>  mc and ic rulers
>
>  and their directions
>
> > associated with the corresponding planet.
> >
> > Here are the hypotheses one after the other:
> >
> > a) The moon
>
>  is most important since amjikally linked to true mind
>
> influences how children like to behave towards their
> > mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> > birth chart of a child,
>
>  the ruler of I.C.
>
>
>   influences how it tends to behave towards
> > the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> > of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> > children.
>
>
>  the events are predictable to the minute
>
>
> >
> > b) The influence of the sun is similar: It influences how
> > children behave towards their fathers and how fathers behave
> > towards their children.
> >
>
>
>  the sun is rather the devel, hardly the father
>
>
> > c) This relative
>
>  behaviour remains the same, even if the children
> > become adults
>
> there is they become crooked
>
> and eventually parents themselves. They will still
> > behave like sun/moon towards their fathers/mothers.
> >
>
>
>  the moon makes them original
>
> > d) The relative behaviour also extends beyond physical parents to
> > people who assume a parental role,
>
>  parential is something exclusively dedicated to the One who breeds,
> the enemy or Los Voladeros
>
>
>
> like a step father/mother or a
> > teacher.
> >
> > e) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards siblings.
>
>  mercury is spy to Sun ,thus not to be entrusted any ...
>
> >
> > f) Mars influences how one likes to behave towards male friends
>
>
>  depending on the _one_ house Mars rules
>
> > of roughly the same generation
>
>  breed
>
> (unless they are siblings). This
> > specifically includes how one likes to behave towards male
> > lovers.
> >
> > f) Accordingly, Venus influences how one likes to behave towards
> > female friends of roughly the same generation (unless they are
> > siblings). This specifically includes how one likes to behave
> > towards female lovers.
>
>   That's new age astrology. True astrology is nothing like this,
> really.
>
> >
> > g) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards people
> > fighting for the same lover.
>
>  lover?
>
>  (I say this because siblings also
> > fight for the love of their parents). In other words, if, say,
> > two men who are friends fall in love with the same woman, they
> > will typically start to behave in a different way towards each
> > other.
> >
> > Now, of course, I am aware that a lot more things influence
>
>  many inorganic beings override any astrological influence at this
> moment
>
>
>  astrology is no joke
>
>  or yoke;)

[...]


In article <astalder-7F286C.20120719092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

> In article <astalder-2E3107.08303518092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
>  Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > I did not look at your birth chart (in
> > tropical, geocentric astrology), so maybe there would be some
> > indications of Scorpio or Pluto aspects in it, but it does not
> > feel very much like it to me. (I am very hesitant to look at
> > other people's charts unless they ask me specifically about it).
>
> [...]
>
> I took a lot at it, and I saw a sun-Pluto square, and ...
> Mars in Scorio, bringing Ares and Scorpio together in
> another way. Always amazing how different methods can
> lead to very similar results; there appear often to be
> more and deeper structures in the world than one would
> expect...
>
> I will take a look at where planets where relative to
> the actual stars on the sky when I was born.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Alain Stalder


Mars in Scorpio.
Sometimes I am too nice.
End of communication.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Rapid Communication - Axes and Opposites
Date: Sat 28 Sep 2002 17:25:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-B71E28.07514428092002@news.bluewin.ch>

Rapid Communication - Axes and Opposites

Alain Stalder, 27 September 2002


Abstract

The opposites wet/dry of the elements are identified with in/out.
Since the six axes of the zodiac form wet/dry pairs, it is argued
that, in each case, the opposite signs focus on common themes,
but the wet sign focusses on the inside and the dry sign on the
outside. This text builds up on [1].


1. wet/dry = in/out

The outside world is most directly experienced by what is seen
(fire) and touched (earth). Mind (air) and feelings (water) are
inside. In quantum mechanics, between measurements (reality), the
possibilities of what may be seen in the next experiment evolve
in waves (water) that are mathematically formulated (logical,
abstract, air). Hence the two wet elements, air and water, are
associated with inside or self, whereas the two dry elements,
fire and earth, are associated with outside or world. In nature,
things are often drier on the outside than in the inside,
especially organic things, like, for example, bodies of people
and animals or fruits and vegetables.


2. Axes and Opposites

The six axes of the zodiac all have pairs of dry/wet elements
opposing each other. The hypothesis, backed by psychological
experience, is that each sign has the same amount of energy, but
invests it either towards the inside or towards the outside.

In the following, I will try to quickly describe the concrete
drives of the six axes. Note that this will describe the initial
drive, and that consequently this will trigger counterreactions
from other people, which, in turn, can lead to the opposite
behaviour, so that people will in reality oscillate to some
degree between the proposed opposites. The actual opposites are
essentially taken from [1].


2a. Virgo/Pisces (dry/wet)

Virgo is sorting the outside world, is actively doing some
sorting (even if done in the mind, then it is later at least
written down; i.e. the goal is in reality). Pisces do actively
little in the outside world, but in their minds, they quickly
recognize situations and how people behave, i.e. they compare
current situations with previous ones and hence sort people and
situations into some categories in their minds.

Virgo tries to create order on the outside, but in the inside
often gets quickly into a disordered state of mind, filled with
many details to sort out. Pisces see things typically very
clearly, but their outside lives can be quite chaotic. This also
fits with how the two signs relate to drugs: Virgo avoids them in
order to gain clarity in her mind; Pisces are happy to have
something that allows them to escape the clarity inside.

2b. Leo/Aquarius (dry/wet)

Leo appears egoistic in the outside world, not ready for much
compromise and also rather conservative when it comes to changing
things in the outside world, at least as far as daily life would
be affected. Aquarius is altruistic towards others in the outside
world and also progressive, wants things to evolve constantly in
the world. In the inside, things are reversed. Aquarius
compromises quite a bit to find a goal for outside progress with
which everybody will agree. Consequently, the goal is something
which is not very progressive or new, since then people would
tend to disagree. This makes Aquarius mentally rather
conservative. The egoism comes about because Aquarius dares to
define, as an individual, what others should then realize. Even
though he compromises a lot on the goal, this is still being
egoistic in the inside. Leo, in turn, has quite a free mind and
tries to find out special solutions that, if realized, would be a
lot better than current reality, at the expense of being much
harder to promote on the outside.

2c. Capricorn/Cancer (dry/wet)

Capricorn is very well structured on the outside, both in space
and time (planing). But inside, he typically follows several
plans, in order to force decisions. That duality requires quite a
bit of complexity in the head, as there are more possibilities
that could happen than that will happen outside in reality.
Cancer, in turn, tends to lean on emotionally to structures that
protect him, i.e. he adheres psychologically, inside to structures
and ways of thinking that are simple and structured. This, in
turn, allows him to create complex things in the outside world,
exactly because his thinking is so simple.

2d. Sagittarius/Gemini (dry/wet)

Sagittarius has a great overview of how the outside world is. He
spends lots of time in order to explore many things he can see
and is always an interested observer of what others do. Gemini,
in turn, like to learn a lot from books, they try to get a good
overview of what has been going on in people's minds. Sagittarius
plans little about what to do when in the outside world, but
spends a lot of time about planning what to say and about the
few, crucial, things that he will keep to himself. Gemini make
concrete plans what to do when in reality, but in their minds,
they tend to wander off quickly to different interesting topics,
what Sagittarius does rather in reality.

2e. Taurus/Scorpio (dry/wet)

Taurus tries to find out how things really are in reality, he
likes to actually look at things and touch them. He also likes to
make things in reality, on the outside, beautiful and harmonic.
Scorpio, on the other hand, likes to go to the bottom of things
psychologically, also with the intent to remove things that are
not harmonic in people's psyches, in order also to increase
harmony and beauty, but in the inside.

Scorpio tries to get others to do things in the direction he
wants in reality, but psychologically goes deep himself. Taurus
is doing things in the outside world by himself, but is also
hesitant to go deep psychologically.

2f. Aries/Libra (dry/wet)

Aries tries to break up existing unfair structures in the outside
world. In the outside world, he argues by reality, by mentioning
directly observable and touchable facts. Science is based on hard
facts. But the mathematical formulas that describe science, the
thinking inside science is very abstract. Libra, in turn, is
publicly arguing with quite abstract arguments, with that some
things should be balanced, symmetric, should have some abstract
beauty. But, from the inside, that is based on some very direct
and concrete observations of how the world is.


Concluding Remarks

The idea that opposite signs of the zodiac focus in/out,
respectively, came to me this morning, when I was still half
asleep. Since this is a very rapid communication, I may have
assigned some opposites the wrong way round. Moreover, the sun is
currently in Libra, so things have probably not been thought
through to the end. However, by communicating this, I am also
potentially allowing more people to do that, hence publishing in
this form makes sense (note that this was a Libra-style
argument:).

Modern particle physics shows a large influence from Aries (which
is probably at least partially because modern science has largely
been created by scientists of Jewish origin, with Jewish religion
being from the age of Aries). I think that psychology can be done
the same way, by having symmetry groups and spontaneous symmetry
breaking to get from dry/wet and hot/cold via the zodiac to
various myths and (cultural) reality. In addition, the study of
different cultures, like Chinese and Indian, might shed some
interesting new light on what is culture and what is more
universal.


Acknowledgements

I would like to thank Werner Held for some discussions by e-mail
and for the texts he wrote [2]. I think it was through that
interaction that I got the idea that in/out can be identified
with wet/dry. Furthermore, some discussions on newsgroups,
especially on alt.astrology.moderated, have probably helped me to
get to the idea presented here, although this process was very
probably not conscious to me nor to the other participants -
thanks in any case!


References

[1] Alain Stalder. A few new discoveries in physics.
    http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

[2] Werner Held. Die 1 und die 2. [and more texts].
    http://people.freenet.de/soleil7

[3] Franz Kafka. Das Schweigen der Sirenen.

--
Alain Stalder
mailto:astalder@exactphilosophy.net
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: "Speed of gravity" -- A final resolution
Date: Sat 5 Oct 2002 05:11:59 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-21BA95.08160103102002@news.bluewin.ch>

On 2002-06-17 Stephen Speicher (sjs@compbio.caltech.edu) wrote:
> In the interest of finally putting this issue to rest, I would
> like to draw attention to the fact that on September 8 of this
> year Jupiter will be at an angular distance of about 3'.7 from
> quasar QSO J0842+1835. In a paper last year ("Testing the
> relativistic effect of the propagation of gravity by very long
> baseline interferometry," _Astrophysical Journal_, 556 (1): L1-L5
> Part 2 Jul 20 2001.) Sergei Kopeikin has made an interesting and
> somewhat unique proposal for an experiment in which to measure
> the propagation "speed of gravity", using differential very long
> baseline interferometry on the celestial configuration I
> indicated above.
>
> I have been in touch with Sergei Kopeikin, and indeed the
> experiment will be performed on September 8th, and it is now less
> than three months away. [snip]

Any information about whether the experiment could be performed ?

Alain Stalder

Subject: Some Information about Quaoar
Date: Wed 9 Oct 2002 05:18:38 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-7A11DD.23390108102002@news.bluewin.ch>

Quaoar is a newly discovered object that orbits the sun
and is about half the diameter of Pluto, making it the
biggest such object discovered since Pluto in 1930.

Link from where I took most of the following information:

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar/

- diameter: about 1250 km
- mass bigger than all numbered asteroids together
- almost cirular orbit, mostly farther away from the
  sun than Pluto, but not always
- takes 285 years to circle the sun
- discovered June 4th 2002 at the Palomar Observatory
- current position (time UTC, RA hrs, decl deg):
  2002-Oct-08 00:00 16 35 51.68 -15 00 00.3
- if convert that correctly, that gives
  a longitude of about 250 degrees (10 deg Sagittarius)
  and a latitude of about 7 degrees
- The name "Quaoar" is the proposal of the discoverers
  to the International Astronomical Union, i.e. the
  name is not official yet
- About the origin of the name:
  "The object has been named "Quaoar" (pronounced KWAH-o-ar)
  after the creation force of the Tongva tribe who were the
  original inhabitants of the Los Angeles basin, where the
  Caltech campus is located."
  (this was from the press release:
  http://pr.caltech.edu/media/Press_Releases/PR12296.html )
  and this is from the link on top:
  "'Quaoar' the great force of creation sings and dances
  the high ones (Dieties) into existence. While Quaoar
  has no form or gender he is usually referred to with
  the male pronoun"
  (sounds fairly close to Amun/Aries/Zeus/Jove to me)
- Interestingly, comparisons with older photographs revealed
  Quaoar now already in photos from 1982 by Charles Kowal,
  relating this new discovery also to the discovery
  of Chiron by Charles Kowal in 1977 and to the Saturn-Pluto
  cycle (conjunction in 1982, opposition this and last year).

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: new object Quaoar
Date: Thu 10 Oct 2002 15:35:12 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-5BB6F0.08002910102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <ao0mdk$rm3$1@rex.ip-plus.net>,
 Alois Treindl <firstname@lastname.com> wrote:
[...]
> Please be aware hat the name is not official yet.
> In an unusal step, the discoverers of 2002 LM60 have "named" it before
> the object was numbered by the IAU. The normal process is that an object
> receives a number, a few weeks after a stable orbit has been computed,
> and then the discoverer(s) have the right to propose a name.
>
> It can be assume however, that this process will be fairly quick, and
> the name will remain and become official within two months.
>
> On each full moon, a list of newly assigned numbers and names is publised.

How lightly should a name for a new object be chosen ?

If I look back at the recent Saturn-Pluto oppositions, the name
chosen for Pluto had quite some impact on the fate of the world.
And, yet, the name is arguably at least partially due to the fact
that its discoverer, Percival Lowell, has the initials P.L. which
are the first two letters of the word "Pluto" and became one
symbol for writing Pluto as a merged "PL".

Of course, there are certainly deeper reasons why that discoverer
had the name "Percival Lowell" (his parent's wishes for the child
influencing the first name, the family history for the last name,
and lots more indirect influences on both). So the choice of the
name Pluto was not necessarily hubris, even though Pluto got its
name much more easily and clearly than Neptune before him. This
too can probably be related already to the different natures of
the planets.

So, when does a planet start to influence human lifes ?

Here are some principal variants, starting with the most
conservative one:

a) After it got its official name
b) After its discovery
c) After it would have been possible in principle to discover it,
   either because it was on more than one photographic plate
   (so that its movement could have been detected in principle)
   or after its orbit could be predicted from deviations in
   the orbits of existing planets. (Neptune, for example, appears
   to have been sighted already in 1612 by Galilei who was
   observing Jupiter's moons at a time when Jupiter was in
   conjunction with Neptune (Drake+Kowal, Sci Am 243, 1980);
   that was more than 200 years before the official discovery
   of Neptune in 1846 and only shortly after the invention
   of the telescope).
d) Always (independently of the discovery)

This is difficult to decide for sure without exact scientific
methods available to astrology yet, but it appears that a) and b)
can probably be excluded due to the history of discoveries of
previous planets and other objects.

If d) is correct, chosing the "right name" is something that has
probably relatively little influence on what the planet will
astrologically influence. However, if c) is correct, the human
choice of the name is probably important, at least in the sense
of a *collective* human decision.

So, in the latter case, a name should not be chosen lightly, or
at least not be accepted lightly, except if the object is of
minor importance. Of course, that process does not necessarily
have to be conscious to individuals.

Any thoughts ?

Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net


PS: Is the fact that new names are normally published around new
moon because then astronomical observations are more difficult
and astronomers have time to look at the new names or are there
other reasons (besides the obvious psychological ones) ?

Subject: Re: new object Quaoar
Date: Thu 10 Oct 2002 22:10:15 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-4C4700.20540910102002@news.dplanet.ch>

In article <uqb6ohbtuijte6@news.supernews.com>,
 "John Roth" <johnroth@ameritech.net> wrote:
[...]
> > PS: Is the fact that new names are normally published around new
> > moon because then astronomical observations are more difficult
> > and astronomers have time to look at the new names or are there
> > other reasons (besides the obvious psychological ones) ?
>
> Actually, astrolomical observations are easier: you don't have the
> light of the Moon to contend with. I have no idea why they are
> published then, other than the wish to have some easily observable
> astronomical phenomenon, which a new moon fits quite nicely.
>
> JR.

Sorry, I meant to write full moon, of course (as Alois Treindl wrote
correctly; see http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/services/MPC.html ).
I wonder if that tradition will be upheld once there are more space
telescopes (there is very little stray light in space). ;)

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: new object Quaoar
Date: Sat 12 Oct 2002 22:57:40 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-1925D4.09294112102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <g95dquspcjjh3g8mvg1p1aba5u69l9mpn2@4ax.com>,
 Chris Mitchell <chrismitchell@zaalberg.freeserve.nospam> wrote:

> On 10 Oct 2002 18:35:03 GMT, Chelsea Polk <bogus@email.com> wrote: in
> message ID <IEjp9.487864$v53.20677224@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>
>
>
> >Quaoar Their only god who "came down from heaven; and, after reducing chaos
> >to order, out the world on the back of seven giants. He then created the
> >lower animals," and then mankind. Los Angeles County Indians, California.
> >
> >is there anything else?  any observations on the energies?
> >
> Anything else?? Come on Chelsea - reducing chaos to order then
> creating animals and mankind isn't bad going! ;-)
>
> Maybe the "chaos to order" bit gives it something of a Virgo flavour?
>
> Chris.

Maybe. Incidentally, I had just reread the previous weekend the
section about Virgo in Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate".
There she writes the following about Virgo (p. 219; note that this
is technically a review of that book, which gives me the right
to cite the following short passage):

> But I have never been comfortable with Mercury as the sole
> description of the complex web of character that lies in Virgo.
> Perhaps there is another planet waiting to be found which might
> be co-ruler; or perhaps not.

Another obvious association with a planet would be with Earth,
which in a chart would be opposite the zenith, perpendicular
to the earth's surface, under our feet. If I am not mistaken,
that would be the same as the IC (or am I wrong ?).
Since the IC also represents our roots, ancestors, the complex
tree of generations from where each individual is coming from,
that association would have some ring to it, as Virgo is a lot
about sorting complex tree structures in the head and in the
world.

Here is what astronomer Chad Trujillo, the guy who first lay
his eyes on Quaoar, writes about the mythology of Quaoar:
( http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar/ )

> The Tongva people (sometimes called the San Gabrielino Native
> Americans) inhabited the Los Angeles area before the arrival of
> the Spanish and other European people. The name "Quaoar"
> (pronounced kwah-o-wahr) comes from their creation mythology. In
> the words of Mark Acuna, Tongva scholar, dancer and tribal elder:
>
> "'Quaoar' the great force of creation sings and dances the high
> ones (Dieties) into existence. While Quaoar has no form or gender
> he is usually referred to with the male pronoun. He dances and
> sings first 'Weywot' who becomes Sky Father; they sing and dance
> 'Chehooit' Earth Mother into existence. The trio sing 'Tamit'
> Grandfather Sun to life. As each divine one joins the singing and
> dancing, the song becomes more complex and the dance more
> complicated. In turn 'Moar', Grandmother Moon (a very complex
> diety), 'Pamit' the Goddess of the sea, 'Manit', the Lord of
> dreams and visions, 'Manisar' the bringer of food and harvests,
> 'Tukupar Itar' Sky Coyote (who is also our major hero),
> 'Tolmalok', the Goddess of Shishongna (the underworld) join in
> the singing, dancing and creating. And finally the great seven
> giants who hold up the worlds are created. The High Ones in turn
> are aided by 'Eagle, Duck, Bear, and Frog' in a grand earth
> diving story. Frog brings up soil out of the deep dark sea, and
> the four animals dance it flat and wide. The 'Gods and Goddesses'
> then furnish the world 'Tovangar' with hills, mountains, trees,
> rivers, etc. 'Tobohar' (first man) and 'Pahavit' (first woman)
> are also part of this great 'Creation song and dance cycle'."
>
> You can find out more about the Tongva at the Tongva website.
http://www.tongva.com/

As I wrote in a previous post, there are certainly elements of
Aries/Amun/Jahwe/Zeus in that invisible, male creator god.

Here are precise date and time of the discovery
(from the same web site as above):

> The first discovery image was taken at 2002 June 04 05:41:40
> (Universal Time = Greenwich, England) from the Palomar
> Observatory 48-inch Oschin telescope. I identified Quaoar in the
> image at 2002 Jun 04 10:48:08 (Pacific Daylight Time).

Finally, somebody at another newsgroup jokingly proposed the name
"Goofy" instead (because Pluto is also the dog of Mickey Mouse).
I guess any association that someone makes will influence the
meaning of a new object, and I like that one, takes some of the
seriousness out of both Quaoar and Pluto. Maybe Pluto's absolute
influence will dilute during the next few years, when the two
other collective planets will pass through Pisces. The two
researchers who found Quaoar said that they only searched about
5% of the sky yet, so there might be similar objects around,
possibly as big or bigger than Pluto. From a purely scientific
standpoint, Pluto would today be classified as an object of the
Kuiper belt, part of many smaller objects outside the orbit
of Neptune, and probably not as a planet (at least not by
astronomers; psychologically things are probably still
different).

Chad Trujillo writes (same web site):
> It is very likely that there are more big Kuiper Belt Objects
> like Quaoar. We looked at only 5% of the entire sky before
> finding Quaoar. So there could be 20 Quaoars out there and we
> wouldn't have seen them yet. It is also likely that a few Plutos
> are out there waiting to be discovered. We have so far looked
> mostly in the plane of the solar system, where objects are most
> likely to be. It's likely that our discovery rates will go down
> as we get further and further from the solar system plane (the
> ecliptic) but we still expect to find maybe 10 more objects,
> given current models of the Kuiper Belt thickness.

Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Meaning of different decanates
Date: Mon 14 Oct 2002 23:19:52 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-FD616F.18535714102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3DAA90A7.F6273D62@ntlworld.com>,
 Roberta Davies <roberta.davies@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Here's a different sort of question for the experts in this group to
> chew over.
>
> I have a book from, I would guess, the 1910s-20s (undated but before the
> discovery of Pluto) in which the uthor sets out a sort of astrologically
> based Tarot-like deck of cards - presumably at the time one could buy
> this deck to go with the book.  He has a card for each planet, the
> ascendant, Moon's nodes, etc., and also cards for each sign.
>
> Now, he has three cards for each sign, one for each decanate (cusp, 10
> degrees, and 20 degrees).  I suspect he has done this mainly to add more
> cards to the deck so it will be a reasonable size.  It also makes a
> difference in some of the card layouts, namely the ones involving
> planetary aspects, obviously.
>
> The author gives a different interpretation for each decanate, but I
> can't see any system he seems to be using to determine these
> differences.  The cusp card corresponds with the traditional meaning of
> the sign, but the 10 and 20 degrees cards are all over the place and
> don't necessarily have any relation to the meaning of the sign or each
> other.  I suspect that (not to put too fine a point on it) he made them
> up out of whole cloth, basically so that each card in the deck would
> have a different meaning.
>
> As an example:
> Aries (cusp) - Pride, rash action, imprudence, activity, courage... (and
> so on; you know the drill)
> 10 of Aries - Success after sacrifice or great hardship, devoted
> friendship, protection or rescue at a critical moment
> 20 of Aries - Unexpected catastrophe, danger of accidents, insecurity,
> loss or ruin at a critical moment
>
> My question for the experts among us is simple.  Is there any
> astrological basis for assigning different meanings, however subtle, to
> the different decanates of a sign?  If so, what would the meanings be?
>
> Thanks in advance for any comments and help.
>
> Robbie
>

I am not really an expert on decanates, but here is what I know.

The oldest assignement of decanates is to astronomical
constellations by the Egyptians and is quite old (ca. 2000 BC):

http://www.san.beck.org/Astro-Decs.html

The decanates are beautifully depicted on the famous Dendera
Zodiac, dating from the 1st century BC:

http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterOne/TranslateDenderah.htm

I also found associations of the decanates with star signs

http://www.astarotology.com/decan2.html

and with planets (with or without the collective planets):

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/astro-concepts/dignitydebility.htm
http://www.astarotology.com/decans.html

If you apply decanates to astrological ages and assuming that we
are near the end of the Age of Pisces, we would be in the first
decanate of Pisces (because ages go the other way round) - then
we would be in the decanate of Cepheus. At the first link above,
Sanderson Beck writes:

> Cepheus was the king of Ethiopia whose daughter Andromeda was
> chained to the rocks to appease Poseidon. Cepheus holds a scepter
> from the tree of life, and his foot rests on the pole star as on
> the rock of truth. This double Pisces decanate ruled by Neptune
> (Poseidon) is concerned with truth and illusions. The love of
> Nature and the search for her secrets inevitably leads into the
> spiritual realms where mystics find a deeper reality. The keyword
> is VERITY.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Uncertainty principle Gedanken experiment
Date: Mon 14 Oct 2002 23:05:14 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C38E4D.13183314102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <386d7a77.0210101452.2513d282@posting.google.com>,
 ed@fredkin.com (Ed Fredkin) wrote:

> It is sometimes stated "We cannot measure the position and momentum
> (or the time and energy) of a particle without an uncertainty in the
> product of the two measurements averaging hbar.  A better statement is
> "We cannot measure the present position and future momentum".
> Various philosophical statements are bandied about as a consequence of
> the uncertainty principle but many are incorrect as is illustrated by
> a simple Gedanken experiment. Let us imagine a specialized integrated
> circuit that does the following: when a particle, like a Helium atom
> bounces off of the surface, the time and position of the bounce is
> measured and read into a computer.  It would be fairly easy to measure
> the position to an accuracy of about 1 micron, and the time to an
> accuracy of about 1 nanosecond.  Of course, if we knew the velocity of
> the incoming atom these measurements would result in uncertainty with
> respect to the future velocity of the particle  (by about 6 meters per
> second, with uncertain direction).  Now let us imagine an evacuated
> sphere, perhaps meters in diameter, where the inside surface is
> completely and seamlessly paved in such integrated circuits.  Into
> this vacuum we introduce one Helium atom which continuously bounces
> around, all by itself, inside the sphere.  It is obvious that after
> every bounce the computer can compute the position accurately and the
> previous momentum with arbitrary accuracy (depending on the size of
> the sphere).  After a while the computer has the whole trajectory to
> very high accuracy; far beyond what the uncertainty principle seems to
> imply.  While this is interesting, what is more interesting is the
> time reversed process.  In that case the computer starts out with a
> list of accurate positions and momenta for the whole sequence of
> bounces that are yet to occur.  I don't want to bore you with the
> details of how the reversible computer eats up the data before the
> measurements are made during the reversed experiment, but
> nevertheless, this Gedanken experiment seems to poke holes in various
> English language stories that people tell each other as to how
> uncertainty works.
>
> Ed F

I think you are implicitly making a classical assumption.

Let me first simplify the setup: Say you have a particle flying
in vacuum and measure its position x1 at t1 and later at t2
a position x2. Now, in classical mechanics, you know that a
free particle is moving at a constant speed on a straight
line. So you could conclude that the velocity of the particle
at t1 (and at t2) was v = (x2-x1)/(t2-t1) and calculate the
momentum p = mv with arbitrary precision.

In quantum mechanics, however, there are no trajectories. All
you have measured so far, is two positions at different times.
Maybe the experimental setup in your Gedankenexperiment is
somewhat misleading in that respect, because the Compton
wavelength of a He atom (mass ca. 4 GeV) is hc/E = ca. 3e-16m,
so it would behave pretty much like a classical object in the
setup you described. You would have to take a lighter particle
and put it into a really small box to see strong quantum effects.

(Imagine maybe a sphere the size of an atom with an electron
inside and repeately measuring where the electron hits the sphere;
there it becomes clear that it is difficult to talk about a
trajectory that exists independently of the observer).

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Fixity
Date: Wed 16 Oct 2002 05:00:25 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-93661C.21475815102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <6p5lqukfl8qa3odlvaast8tig52hmgf944@4ax.com>,
 Chris Mitchell <chrismitchell@zaalberg.freeserve.nospam> wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:04:25 CST, drew
> <drew@scorpio518.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: in message ID
> <jwlc1QAvBcq9Ew6m@scorpio518.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >In trying to understand the nature of Fixity I appreciate that it
> >relates to obstinacy, stubbornness, etc, but I am trying to understand a
> >little more about how it affects us and the way we live.
> >
> >Am I correct in assuming that whereas Cardinality 'initiates' things,
> >therefore Fixity develops them?
> >
> Sounds pretty good to me. However, I have been reading a fascinating
> book about Kabbalistic astrology in which the author claims that
> precessional ages (ie the coming of the age of Aquarius) change on a
> basis defined by a very clear formula in Jewish astrology, and that
> the age of Aquarius actually began in 1981.
>
> He also maintains that this means that Cardinal/Fixed/Mutable also
> changed - that the four sacred animals (Lion-Bull-Eagle-Man) which we
> now think of as the fixed signs were originally cardinal, and since
> 1981 have become mutable! This would mean anyone born since 1981 would
> reflect these qualities differently, so a young Leo would be more
> mutable in nature, Aries would be fixed, Pisces would be cardinal for
> instance.

I think this not quite how things are.

During the Age of Taurus, many different cultures made sphinx sculptures
that combined what is now the four fixed signs. The sphinx in Gizeh
has a human face (Aquarius) and a lion body (Leo). Other sphinx figures
additionally have elements of the other two signs, like eagle or dragon
wings (Scorpio), a scorpion tail (Scorpio too), or bull's legs (Taurus).

As far as I understand, the reason people mainly made sculptures for
this cross (and not for one of the other two), is that this was the
*cardinal* cross of that time and also representing the four points
of the compass - let me explain why.

The astrological year starts at the beginning of spring, when day and
night are of equal length. At the beginning of that day, the sun rises
exactly in the east and, in that Age, the sun was in Taurus then (this
is precisely why it was called the Age of Taurus). Now, the beginning
of the year and of spring is cardinal, because it *starts* something.
The same was true for the other three signs of the same cross, Leo
started the summer, Scorpio autumn and Aquarius the winter.

By the time the ancient greeks had adoped astrology, Aries had become
the sign that was rising in the east at the beginning of spring and,
accordingly, had become cardinal.

During the Age of Pisces, however, Aries remained cardinal. In my
opinion,
what is probably the most likely reason for that, is the closeness of
Pisces to nature. The star signs, as we have them today, are very well
adapted to seasons (for example, Virgo is sorting out and stacking in
the harvest of the summer), so that during the Age of Pisces people
prefered to stick with that instead of forcefully moving the crosses
one sign backwards.

Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net


--
PS: There are lots of ideas and beliefs about when exactly the
Age of Aquarius will start or has started. What I personally
consider to be a very likely hypothesis is that the Age of Pisces
started when the first star of the constellation of Pisces,
Alpha Pisces, passed the spring equinox (i.e. when it was in
conjunction with the sun at the beginning of spring).

That star is also called Alrisha, the "knot" or "node" and
symbolizes the point where the string or umbilical cord between
the two fish of the constellation, which represent mother and son,
is cut at the moment of birth, at the moment for which the birth
chart is later calculated. So this would be a very natural moment
for a piscean age to start. This happened roughly in 100 BC.

Assuming further, that the zodiac for ages is also divided into
twelve ages of equal size, the Age of Aquarius would start around
2044 - but, of course, this is hard to judge now. A few hundred
years from now, this should be easier :)

If you are interested in a few more (hopefully original) ideas
about astrological ages by a physicist (me), you might be
interested in sections 3.10 to 3.14 and section 4 of

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

(I must warn you that it is more densely written than this post,
lacking, for example, the more detailed explanation about why
the cardinal cross has something to do with the four points of the
compass, etc. Moreover, some parts of section 4 (but definitely
not all!) are hard to understand without some deeper knowledge of
quantum mechanics and modern physics, in general.)

You may also be interested in Robert Hand's essay about the Age
of Pisces, where he also identifies the start of the Age of
Pisces with the passage of Alrisha/Alpha Pisces, and discusses
correlations between historical events and the passages of
other stars of the constellation by the spring equinox:

Robert Hand. Essays on Astrology. Whitford Press (1982).

Subject: Re: Fixity
Date: Thu 17 Oct 2002 05:08:06 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-F1AF2C.22403616102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <aoj8ja$alg$2@reader13.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-93661C.21475815102002@news.bluewin.ch...
>
> (snip of text)
> Extremely interesting reading; thank you.
>
> > PS: There are lots of ideas and beliefs about when exactly the
> > Age of Aquarius will start or has started. What I personally
> > consider to be a very likely hypothesis is that the Age of Pisces
> > started when the first star of the constellation of Pisces,
> > Alpha Pisces, passed the spring equinox (i.e. when it was in
> > conjunction with the sun at the beginning of spring).
>
> Can the same hypothesis be used for the start of the previous/next ages ?
> It seems too much of a coincidence to be irrelevant.
>
> Christine.

I think that is a very difficult question to answer. Let me try to
give some thoughts, from different perspectives (the moon is in Pisces
now, so this might be a good approach now).

From the point of view of science, the earliest undeniable evidence
for the discovery of precession (the motion of the earth's axis that
causes astrological ages), is from around 130 BC when the Greek
astronomer Hipparchus discovered it. It is interesting to note that
this discovery was so close to the moment when Alpha Pisces passed
the spring equinox (Robert Hand indicates the year 111 BC).

By that time, i.e. by the end of the Age of Aries, star signs had
already been somewhat detached from the actual stars, namely because
the zodiac was divided into twelve sections of equal size, whereas
actual constellations have largely different sizes. I think this
abstraction and balancing can be associated with Libra, the sign
that is opposing Aries. I think that the idea, that opposing signs
influence the age too, is not new, at least it is understandable
as a counterreaction to too much inbalance, especially if one side
is Aries.

Moreover, in earlier times, Scorpio included both today's Scorpio
and Libra (as the claws of Scorpio).

For the point of view, that the size of astrological signs has become
balanced, one might assume that also each Age gets equal time. That
is how I got to the year 2044.

How much is astrology a cultural thing ? If it is pure culture, it
will simply be a collective (probably unconscious) decision involving
everybody. If people prefer to use equal length ages, it might really
start in 2044, if people prefer to have a real astronomical event,
it would be at that moment. Maybe it will simply start at several
moments, with different strengths, depending how strong the belief is
for each starting date.

Since when are there astrological Ages ? Some things appear to fit
quite well: The last ice age ended roughly at the beginning of the
Age of Leo, people really started to settle (i.e. to become farmers)
around the beginning of the Age of Cancer, but other associations
are sometimes so much off, that one might suspect that people simply
adapted meanings of Ages *after* they had discovered precession,
i.e. they adapted meanings of star signs to history, not the other
was round. In other words, they knew roughly in which order humanity
made progress, but also lacked exact dates, since they did not have
anything comparable to present science.

Suppose there is a collective mind, composed of all the people on
earth, in other words, imagine having all the eyes of everybody
on this planet and living thousands of years. For such a collective
mind, it would maybe not be too difficult to compare astronomical
observations between centuries and notice that the sign that
rises in spring is changing every about 2000 years. So, even though
precession was likely consciously discovered already quite a bit
before 130 BC, and maybe even known already during the Age of Taurus,
unconsciously and collectively, the knowledge of Ages may be a lot
older. I think it would be a very interesting topic for history to
investigate these roots scientifically.

Science is often too conservative. The oldest wheel that a historian
digs out of the ground is very likely not the first wheel ever made.
On the other hand, projections into the past that are based too much
on the current limited knowledge can be just a wrong as comparable
projections into the future. I hope this text is not too biased in
either direction.

To get back to the original question, I think the answer is probably
yes and no, I think it is unlikely that the passing of the first star
of the constellation of Aquarius will go unnoticed. However, as far
as I remember, that moment is still a few centuries from now, so that
I think it is more likely that to some degree the Age has already
started (enlightenment, revolutions, new planets, science, technology,
democracy, public schools for everybody, equality before the law,
and so on...

Transitions between ages do probably not happen within just a few
years. In my document, I also speculated out of the blue about whether
decanates might be influenced by the ajacent signs. In other words,
the first decanate of Pisces would have been influenced by Pisces
and also still somewhat by Aries, the second one would have been
influenced by Pisces only, and the last one by Pisces and Aquarius.
Taking again the numbers 111 BC and 2044, transitions between
decanates would have been around 612 and 1328, i.e. close to the
Hegira of 622 (when Mohamed fled from Mecca to Medina) and to the
very first beginnings of the renaissance. My speculation would
predict quite a smooth transition between Ages that would have
started already about 700 years ago.

There is a nice website that provides a lot about the mythology of
constellations and star signs: http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/
Besides, she also indicates longitudes for fixed stars. Delta Aries,
the first star of Aries is now at ca. 20deg Taurus. This would put
its passing by the spring equinox to very roughly 1500 BC.
Interestingly, that is probably roughly the time that the Minoan
culture on Crete was destroyed (at least indirectly) by the huge
volcano eruption that blew away a large part of the island
San Torini.

Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Fixity
Date: Thu 17 Oct 2002 05:09:08 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-2491AC.22391616102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <55hqquclb55dlq2aehmtaack1qtpghomvq@4ax.com>,
 Chris Mitchell <chrismitchell@zaalberg.freeserve.nospam> wrote:

[...]
> >PS: There are lots of ideas and beliefs about when exactly the
> >Age of Aquarius will start or has started. What I personally
> >consider to be a very likely hypothesis is that the Age of Pisces
> >started when the first star of the constellation of Pisces,
> >Alpha Pisces, passed the spring equinox (i.e. when it was in
> >conjunction with the sun at the beginning of spring).
>
> Indeed, and I have my own ideas on this subject which does not include
> believing that the Age of Aquarius started in 1981. However, Dobin -
> referring to Jewish astrology - justifies his 1981 date by using
> conjunctions of Saturn and Jupiter. Each conjunction, at roughly
> 20-year intervals, occurs three or four times in the same triplicity.
> For instance:
>
> 8 Sep 1921: 26 Virgo (Earth)
> 15 Feb 1941: 9 Taurus (Earth)
> 19 Feb 1961: 28 Capricorn (Earth)
>
> 31 Dec 1980: 9 Libra (Air)
> 28 May 2000: 23 Gemini (Air)
> 21 Dec 2020: 0 Aquarius (Air)
>
> He then goes on listing them all from 1980 to 2681 - you can see
> twelve "triplets" of around 60 years each. Each triplet starts with a
> sign, and these follow this order: Libra (1980), Cancer (2041), Aries
> (2101), then moves to fixed triplets (Taurus - 2161, Aquarius 2221,
> Scorpio 2281) and so on up to the final triplet (Capricorn 2641, Virgo
> 2661, Taurus 2681).The one after 2681 is 2701, so the "Cardinal Air"
> triplet (starting with Libra) begins again. This period is about 720
> years. When this cycle has repeated 3 times, we get 2,160 years.
>
> However, the conjunctions are not at 20 year intervals - it's 19y
> 290days approx; so in each 720 year cycle, there's a third of a
> conjunction left over. So this neat pattern above requires an
> additional conjunction every 2,160 years. Over a precessional cycle of
> 25,920 years this requires twelve such conjunctions, one in each
> constellation.
>
> He goes on to say:
>
> "These various conjunctions of Jupiter and Saturn had particular
> names. The normal conjunctions within its triplicity was called the
> NORMAL CONJUNCTION. The conjunction that marked the change of
> triplicities every 60 years was known as the GREAT CONJUNCTION. The
> conjunction that occurred once every 2,160 years and marked the
> beginning of a Prophetic Age was known as the MAGNIFICENT CONJUNCTION,
> and the conjunction which occurred every 25,920 years to mark the
> beginning of a new Great Year was known as the DIVINE CONJUNCTION or
> the CONJUNCTION OF POWER."
>
> ...
>
> "...There is a great concern over the exact date which will begin the
> Age of Aquarius. If our ancestors [the ancient Israelites] were
> correct, it is very easy to determine that date. Remember that there
> is one extra Jupiter-Saturn conjunction that heralds the beginning of
> every new Prophetic Age. That conjunction, a Magnificent Conjunction,
> occurred on February 19, 1961 at 28 Capricorn, marking the fourth
> conjunction in the Earth triplicity and the end of the age of Pisces.
> The new conjunction in 1981 on New Years Day almost at midnight of New
> Year's Eve, will be a Great Conjunction in Libra, marking both a
> change in triplicities and the arrival of the Age of Aquarius..."
>
> It's a fascinating read, whether you agree with his conclusions or
> not. The book is by Rabbi Joel C. Dobin, and entitled "Kabbalistic
> Astrology - The Sacred Tradition of the Hebrew Sages".

Thanks a lot for all the information. I just ordered the book.

Let me just mention one thing that came to my mind when reading
about these triplicities that give roughly 60 year cycles. I do not
know much about chinese astrology, but it appears that for one of
the 12 signs (the Horse) every 60 years there is the "Fire Horse",
which has a special meaning. Whereas the normal Horse has rather
"good" properties like wisdom and intelligence, the Fire Horse has
them in abundance and hence threatens the balance that is valued so
high in chinese culture. But, I guess, such short disturbances are
also necessary to some degree, in order to ensure progress in
their society.

I was aware that the chinese way of assigning one sign per year
had to do with the Jupiter cycle of 12 years, so I was assuming
that 60 is just 5 x 12 (five because of the five chinese elements,
earth, wood, metal, fire, water). I was not aware of a relation
to Saturn. However, I have no idea what kind of properties are
associated with these two big planets in China, so maybe that
association is not valid or at least not very strong in chinese
astrology.

One more thing, you can also get 2160 from 72 x 360, i.e. 72 years
are one "day" (one degree) in the great year.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Fixity
Date: Fri 18 Oct 2002 02:11:09 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-19CA50.19044017102002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <aoluca$54g$2@reader08.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-F1AF2C.22403616102002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> Let me try to
> > give some thoughts, from different perspectives (the moon is in Pisces
> > now, so this might be a good approach now).
> [..]
>
> Thank you again. I may not be able to converse on the subject but am always
> interested to read that which was unknown to me.
> Does such astronomical research as it is applied to astrology give you more
> insight into the meaning of the astro. symbolism?

I think that all directly observable properties of nature have
their counterpart in the psyche, partially because people
believed in a correspondence between inner and outer world,
partially very probably also because such a correspondence
really exists, in the sense that similar properties lead to
similar consequences.

Mercury never goes further away from the sun than into next or
previous sign. So the planet Mercury is only visisible near
sunset or sunrise. That is a romantic moment, because it is
near the transition between day and night. That gives a
correlation with what is associated with Gemini. In greek
mythology Hermes (Mercury) leaves the cave where he was born
twice on the day he was born, the second time to steal 40
cattle from Apollon (sun).

And so on, see all my previous posts.

Simple, directly observable properties of what we see every
day, how a fire burns, that a thunderstorm starts with lightning
and ends with rain (cloud=Air=Gemini/Libra/Aquarius), explain
already a lot psychologically, when mapped to the mind.

All you have to do next, is to give these things numbers,
to properties like hot/cold, up/down, 0:100/50:50/100:0,
and then you can do science with it, you can formulate
mathematical theories and verify or falsify them.

Some things in psychology can be done as exactly as in
physics, no more different schools of belief for that
part of psychology: Things will either be verified or
falsified quantitatively or, else, not be decidable by
scientific, mathematically formulated psychology.

At some point it just makes click and these simple stuctures
in mythology, astrology, psychology become evident. It is
almost like Plato described it in his cave parable - once you
have stepped out of the dark and seen the world in full sunshine,
you don't want to go back down to the shadows.

I know this may seem exaggerated, but that is how the future
will be. Of course, the world of possibilities will also just
simply move one step up. There will probably be things that are
very interesting, but will still be refuted by the "scientific
psychologers", the more scared, sceptical people what are
afraid of everything that cannot be given a clear label
true/false.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: The future of astrology
Date: Mon 18 Nov 2002 14:02:36 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-576AAE.09281018112002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3dd6bb4b.25530514@news.infomagic.net>,
 johnk@soultrek.com (John) wrote:

[...]
>  During my schooling in philosophy I searched high and low for
> some fundamental reason why astrology should work. Finally I
> discovered the system of Plotinus, a third century AD philosopher
> often referred to as the father of Neo-Platonism. Over the years I’ve
> worked to put together a conceptual foundation for astrological
> thought entitled the Philosophy of Astrology. I somewhat expected the
> astrological community to accept this as a defense for their beliefs.
> Rather than try to exploit it financially, I put it up on the Internet
> for all to think about. After many years, to my consternation,
> astrologers have shown no interest at all. I soon realized that due to
> preconceptions and biases it was too much of a stretch to make
> astrologers comfortable.  No one has argued against it, but no one has
> accepted it either.
[...]

If you look at philosophy, you can find almost any opinion about
how the world could be. As long as a view of the world is not
specifically, concretely tied to reality, to what can be seen and
touched, all the possibilities exist and many people will
probably neither argue for or against a specific view.

In that sense, I agree with Ray Murphy: Can you say relatively
briefly where your views explain something that current science
does not explain ? Is there any way to experimentally distinguish
your view from other views, by looking at how the world is, not
merely by thinking ?

I got the impression from quickly reading through your article
that you are essentially saying that the world is alive, which
is, of course, a very old idea that others have had before, maybe
if was even the first view of the world.

It is also clear to me that science has its limitations (I am a
physicist). Science is based on reality (Earth) and on
mathematically formulated theories, the logical consequences
(Air) of reality. In that sense, it lacks the other two elements,
Fire and Water, it says little about personal imagination and
about feelings, about love etc. Science always gives a definite
answer to a question. This works very reliably in concrete cases,
for things that are important for building technology, but when
it comes to fundamental questions, some more precise experimental
results can change the answers totally. For example, before
Einstein, time and space were considered absolute, or before
Quantum Mechanics, people believed that, at least in principle,
the world evolved like a machine, that if you could measure
positions and velocities of particles at one time, you could
predict all their future positions and velocities, that there
would be no free mind.

Somehow this reminds me of when my father used to fix something
and my mother asked if it would work now again. My father would
then give a logical explanation why it should work now. But
sometimes, relatively quickly afterwards, the thing would stop
working again. My father had typically overlooked something and
would fix it. When my mother asked again, my father would again
give a logical explanation of what was wrong and why it will work
now. Similarly, scientists can always give definite answers but
you can also not really trust them to give you the same answer to
fundamental questions next time you ask.

Nowadays it is very difficult to say something new and specific,
i.e. tied somewhat to reality, that is also not in contradiction
with current scientific results. If you want to do philosophy
nowadays, you either have to know fundamental physics very well
or, else, you are limited to say something that is not decidable
by science and hence has no measurable impact on people's lifes,
so nobody will consider it more than just a possibility of many.

Of course, I am also aware that some things in astrology work.
That is the other way of making progress in science, coming
from experiment. Once there are experimental results that are
accepted by the majority of scientists, people will start to
investigate the reasons.

Alain Stalder

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Books on quantum physics and associated philosophy
Date: Tue 26 Nov 2002 04:42:33 CET
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy,sci.physics,sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-213AFD.17590123112002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <arhmlg$3e9$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
 "Chris Vinall" <cvinall@REMOVEihugTHIS.com.au> wrote:

[...]

> I have a basic grasp of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum
> mechanics and am looking to buy books which deal with the
> philosophical implications of the theory, especially as it relates
> to the measurement problem and the role of consciousness in the
> theory. I am interested in the parallels that appear with Eastern
> mysticism and in theories like Wheeler's that implicate
> consciousness in the basic structure of the universe, but would be
> equally interested in books that argue against these - I am looking
> simply for informed discussion of the subject. If my knowledge of
> the physics is expanded at the same time, so much the better. [...]

Let me start with a few selected references and then provide some
slightly more philosophical thoughts.

1) The first chapter of Dirac's "Principles of Quantum Mechanics"
(Oxford University Press, 1958) gives a very good introduction to
the pragmatic view of QM, to a view that is defined by what can
be measured and makes no additional assumptions.

2) In a booklet called "Elementary Particle Physics and the Laws
of Physics" (Cambridge University Press, 1989), a lecture called
"The Reason for Antiparticles" by Richard Feynman is printed.
In it, Feynman shows in a relatively elementary way that
antiparticles are a consequence of QM and relativity. He simply
shows that there must be a non-vanishing probability amplitude
for intermediate particles in a scattering process that are
outside the light cone, i.e. "faster than light". Say, you have
two particles A and B scattering off each other with a charged
intermediary partice "flying" from A to B. Then, according to
special relativity, there are other observers in relative motion
who will consider things the other way round, namely as the
inverse charge moving from B to A. Feynman put it more simply:
"[...] we can say that one man's virtual particle is the other
man's virtual antiparticle."

3) The book "Quantum Theory and Measurement" by Wheeler and Zurek
essentially reproduces original papers about the book's subject.
In it, in an article by Bohr called "Discussion with Einstein on
epistemological problems in atomic physics", Bohr discusses maybe
the most famous Gedankenexperiment with which Einstein tried to
find inconsistencies in QM. Take a box with a clock inside that
is connected to a shutter. There is some radiation inside the box
and the shutter can be opened and closed so quickly that chances
are good that only one particle escapes. Now, in addition, the
box is hanging on a spring to measure its change in weight when
the particle escapes. Apparently, this setup would allow to
measure both the time when the particles escaped and its energy
(mass) with arbitrary precision, thus violating Heisenberg's
uncertainty relation. However, since the clock also moves up in
the gravitational field when the particle escapes, according to
general relativity, the clock will run faster, introducing an
uncertainty in the time measurement that yields again
Heisenberg's uncertainty relation.


As far as I can see, most philosophical discussions are about
classical (non-relativistic) QM, the QM of Schrodinger and
Heisenberg, with a little bit of special relativity mixed in,
in order to make explicit why EPR-like experiments exclude local
hidden variable theories (see e.g. book by J.S. Bell, who
discovered this; mentioned in another reply to your post).

Now, it appears that what I wrote at 2) can also be seen with
a different focus than Feynman had in his lecture; it not only
shows that antiparticles are a consequence of QM and special
relativity, but also that virtual processes/"particles" with
"speeds larger than the speed of light" are a direct consequence
of QM and special relativity. In that light, the "spooky"
correlations in EPR-like experiments appear maybe a bit less
strange.

Hence it may make not much sense to try to develop alternative
formulations of classical quantum mechanics, but might be more
fruitful to try to tackle quantum field theory, say, Quantum
Electrodynamics, directly.

As 3) suggests, even classical QM and general relativity appear
somewhat suprisingly not to be totally disconnected, so it may
even be necessary to incorporate gravitation in order to be able
to find something new. Since there is currently no quantum field
theory of gravitation, this appears to be at least another order
of magnitude more difficult to do than QED alone.

Of course, it is not possible to exclude that trying to somehow
view classical QM differently will lead to some interesting new
physics, but judging from the above this appears at least more
unlikely than not to me. Going for quantum field theory directly
appears to be more promising.

But, is there really anything to be gained? Maybe it is really
not possible to go beyond quantum theories in understanding the
world. Well, let me just give a probably somewhat suprising
argument why this might not be so...

Heraclitus and Lao Tse lived roughly at the same time. Although
they lived in separate cultures, they had one thing in common.
They were among the first abstract thinkers. I think this shows
in the things they said, namely that in what they said logical
opposites are not fully separated yet; they often mention one
thing *and* its contrary in the same sentence.

Similarly, in QM the wave/particle duality is not fully resolved.
Considering an electron as a wave or particle only will not do in
all situations, both pictures are necessary. The two photons in
the most common realisation of the EPR Gedankenexperiment are
separated by a spacelike distance and yet the results of what is
measured of them are correlated.

This might suggest that QM could be an intermediary theory, that
is to be superseded sometime in the future by a theory that makes
things more explicit, like it happended in philosophy where later
philosophers like Aristotle devised a logic that is close to the
one that is used in today's mathematics.

As a physicist, I must say that it becomes moot to talk about
these issues after some time, unless there are new ideas with a
real chance to lead somewhere. At the end of the day, the only
thing that is really satisfying for a physicist is a theory that
makes different predictions than existing theories (even though
alternative but equivalent formulations of QM could also be of
some use - like simplifying calculations or even only thinking
about quantum mechanics (e.g. path integrals)).

Unless thoughts are tied to reality, different people will always
have different preferences about how the world could be.
Philosophy is maybe more about the latter, physics clearly more
about the former.

Alain Stalder

--
PS: Amazon.com has some sample pages of 1) and 2) online,
including the beginning of Feynman's lecture, resp. of the first
chapter of 1), so you may judge for yourself if the level in
these books is simple enough to be helpful...
(Some articles in 3) also contain very little math).

Subject: Re: autistic child
Date: Sun 1 Dec 2002 11:35:48 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated,de.alt.astrologie
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-6E15A5.11352301122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3de5e837$0$86534$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>,
 "Johan Glas" <johan.glas@skynet.be> wrote:

> Does anyone has experience with horoscopes of autisitic children. Could you
> tell me what your results are. Does anyone has the coordinates of autistic
> children?
>
> Tha,k you

Liz Greene discusses the birth charts of an autistic child and
her family in "The Astrology of Fate". The book is already 20
years old.

I was at a seminar by Liz Greene about trines in January 2001.
During it, Liz Greene mentioned - if I remember correctly - that
a young student she knows is doing some research to find
astrological correlations with autism. She said that there are
indications for two different kinds of autism, one has to do with
trines in fire signs, the other was connected with Saturn or
Capricorn, but I don't remember in which way exactly.

Liz Greene is the director of the Centre for Psychological
Astrology in London: http://www.cpalondon.com
Somebody there should probably be able to tell you more
(there are contact e-mail addresses at the web site).

Good luck,

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Books on quantum physics and associated philosophy
Date: Sun 1 Dec 2002 23:53:31 CET
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy,sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-4128E9.23533101122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <arn3fm$ekr$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
 "Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:

> Hi Chris I think I saw your post on sci.physics asking about a quantum
> group? I am reading and have read a number of quantum books.
>
> I like

[lots of books and links]



Hi Mike,

Thanks a lot for all the interesting stuff.

I think the post below that did not get past moderation at
sci.physics.research might be interesting. I think it is a pretty
basic and well-founded recapitulation of current knowledge, plus
a somewhat speculative idea. I guess it was the last part that
made the post appear too speculative for sci.physics.research
(which I could accept), but maybe I also got some of the stuff
above wrong, but that seems less likely to me (I have asked the
moderator to be more specific, but did not receive a reply yet).

Anyway, the idea is to find out if the brain thinks quantum
mechanically by asking people questions and measuring how quickly
people can deliver a correct answer. Since some problems can be
solved more efficiently by a quantum computer than by a classical
computer, like e.g. some database searches, and if some people
can find information more quickly than would be possible with a
"classical brain", that would constitute a clear indication that
quantum mechanics has some role in thinking. Of course, putting
this idea to practice is not easy and there might even be good
arguments why it could not work. It was for the latter reason
that I initially posted to sci.physics.research because it is the
only place online with the necessary critical brainpower (other
places are either not critical and precise enough or, else, do
not have the brainpower).

By the way, for reasons that must be obvious to you too, asking
questions to women would very likely mostly be more promising
than asking men with respect with to the above idea. Men think
more logically and very probably for the most part classically.

Anyway, here is the original post:

There is one more aspect of quantum mechanics that could be
helpful in finding out how important a conscious observer is. It
is simply an application of the formalism of quantum mechanics to
a new regime. This is typically called "decoherence" and it says
essentially that every sufficiently large quantum mechanical
system looses coherence quite quickly even if it apparently only
interacts very little with its environment (which is also a
quantum mechanical system in the calculations, so there is no act
of measurement, yet).

Speaking in terms of Schrodinger's famous Gedankenexperiment,
this would mean that probability amplitudes for a cat that is
both dead *and* alive become exceedingly small very quickly, so
that essentially only probabilities for cat that is either dead
or alive remain.

I don't know the current state of affairs. Apparently there used
to be some disagreement among physicists about how strong
decoherence really is. At least it appears feasible to decide
this question experimentally in the near future (and maybe this
has already happened).

Here is a relatively recent article that in most parts only uses
fairly basic quantum mechanics:
C. Kiefer and E. Joos, "Decoherence: Concepts and Examples"
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9803052

In any case, the fundamental problem of measurement will not be
solved by this, since it is just an application of the formalism
of quantum mechanics. However, the potential influence of a
conscious observer would apparently be diminished if decoherence
is really that strong: Even though one still has to take a peek
to know whether the cat is actually still alive, one knows
already before the measurement that the cat is practically not in
a state dead+alive.

Decoherence has also been used to infer that quantum mechanics
cannot be important in the brain, simply because the brain is a
large macroscopic object that is not well isolated. However, even
if the effect turns out to be as strong as suggested above (or
already has), from a philosophical standpoint the following
question is still bound to be asked: Is coherence in the brain an
important part of the difference between a conscious, living
brain and a dead one ? After all live is known to solve complex
problems, it can survive in the most hostile environments.

As long as an idea is not specific enough, physics can typically
not exclude it, simply because the set of possible specific
theories would often be too big. Every decision that would make
the idea more specific and is not made maybe on average roughly
at least doubles the number of possible specific theories. Hence
one quickly ends up with an exponential number of possible
theories that nobody can compare with experiment in less than
exponential time.

This brings me indirectly to a rather speculative idea that I had
recently. Maybe it can be turned into something more specific,
maybe not:

If quantum mechanics is important in thinking, would one not
expect that the human mind is capable of solving certain selected
problems (for which known efficient algorithms for quantum
computers exist) more quickly than would be possible with a
"classical brain" ?

I don't know quantum computing well enough to judge whether this
idea has any chance to be of practical use. At least it would
require very little equipment, just a bunch of people to ask
questions to and a stopwatch would do.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Proposal for two new newsgroups
Date: Mon 2 Dec 2002 08:28:08 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-D97714.08280802122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article
<pan.2002.12.01.22.54.04.34411@nospammissthisout.myrealbox.com>,
 "Titanpoint" <titanpoint@nospammissthisout.myrealbox.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I am thinking of proposing two new newsgroups to try and filter two
> important subjects and give them a safe home.
>
> They would be:
>
> sci.physics.relativity.moderated
>
> and
>
> sci.physics.quantum
>
> Both of these usenet groups would be moderated by a team of five or six
> people.
>
> For some bizarre reason (and I haven't found out why yet) there is a
> moratorium on converting unmoderated newsgroups to moderated so I can't
> simply apply for sci.physics.relativity to be changed.
>
> For this step to be taken I need you to reply to this posting with either
> a YES or a NO.
>
> The basic premise is to return the Usenet groups on these two subjects
> back to people who actually study science at college or some other high
> eduction, as well as professional scientists who wish to contact others in
> the same field. And newbies who could ask questions about this or that
> result in GR, SR or QM (as appropriate).
>
> I don't aim to propose quite the level of moderation found on
> sci.physics.research, as personally I find it a little to restrictive. I
> think the focus of the new newsgroups should be on learning, new
> discoveries in the disciplines and applying the mathematics of these
> subjects in new and innovative ways to explain phenomena.
>
> If the mood is generally positive, I will propose the creation of an RFD
> and an FAQ on the two new newsgroups (one for each).
>
> If you don't think these NGs should be created, say why, but don't flame
> me or anyone who disagrees because frankly, I don't care.
>
> TP

I think this is generally a good idea, the gap between
sci.physics and sci.physics.research is too big. Let me present a
few thoughts about the current state and how it could be
improved.

For my taste sci.physics has lost usefulness for most parts. It
is hard to find really interesting stuff. Many discussions are
not about facts and ideas, but contain rather personal attacks.
Also, since there are so many posts, I get the impression that
many people are reading things too superficially and replying
accordingly.

A newsgroup like sci.physics.research has certainly its
justification. There is a need to discuss top notch research in
public in a relatively quick way. For this ambitious goal,
moderation has to be rather strict. I guess it would mean too
much effort for the moderators to check all posts for possibly
containing an intelligent, but maybe not very well formulated
idea. In my view sci.physics.research stands a bit like a rock,
and to some degree it has to. But, at some point, some water just
has to flow around it.

Do we really need two additonal groups ? Would not one group be
better ? First, it's simpler, you need only to write one FAQ, one
charter and need less moderators, plus people will have to scan
only one new newsgroup. Moreover, I think merely by creating
separate groups for quantum physics and relativity, you make it
harder to present ideas that concern both. I would prefer a
single newsgroup. Maybe one could restrict it to modern physics,
but I would not mind to keep it open for any kind of physics.

I am not sure what a good name would be. It should be something
that even first time posters would easily recognize as a good
place to post to. Here are some suggestions:

sci.physics.intermediate
sci.physics.modern
sci.physics.openlymoderated

As a further suggestion, to reduce the need for moderators, some
news groups have whitelists into which posters come who were
repeately accepted by the moderators. Posts coming from people on
the whitelist are automatically posted to the group without
moderation. In addition to reducing the amount of necessary
moderation, quicker conversations between frequent posters become
possible.

Hope this helps and good luck,

Alain Stalder

Subject: Just hidden triviality ? (Was: Physics bitten by reverse Alan Sokal hoax?)
Date: Mon 2 Dec 2002 20:09:59 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-D2FEB9.20095802122002@news.bluewin.ch>

Are the Bogdanov theses and papers science or not ?

It is my suspicion that the publications simply wrap known facts
in such a way that makes it hard to tell that most statements are
trivially true and, of course, also to find any errors in the
papers. Let me state the idea a bit more in detail:

a) Choose a field to write a paper in.
b) Collect statements that have been proven to be correct or at
least are considered correct by the majority of scientists in the
field.
c) Transform the statements by linking them trivially to each
other and substituting words by synonyms.

A reviewer who probes the publication by doing some spot checks
will only find statements that are correct and hence maybe assume
that the writers know the field well, so that their research is
likely well-founded and hence worth to be published.

Whether the actual Bogdanov publications fit the above hypothesis
is best judged by people who know the field well. Judging merely
from recent posts, there appears to be some indication of that.
If it turns out to be really so, I would be more interested in
Bogdanov PhD theses about how they did things in detail.

This technique might even be of some use. I remember how the
famous computer scientist E. W. Dijkstra constructed an efficient
algorithm for calculating the square root of an integer in a
similar way. He started with a trivial program that would just
start counting up from 0 and square until the square was bigger
than the number to take the root from. Then he made a number of
variable substitutions and arrived at a program that was provably
correct and efficient, but not no longer understandable at all
why it would calculate a square root.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: autistic child
Date: Mon 2 Dec 2002 21:25:50 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated,de.alt.astrologie
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C22178.21252102122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <asfbr2$lpd$3@reader10.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

> > Liz Greene discusses the birth charts of an autistic child and
> > her family in "The Astrology of Fate". The book is already 20
> > years old.
> >
>
> An interesting study of family fate.
> But could she have seen autism in the chart if she had NOT known about the
> child?
>
> Christine.

I think yes. Not in the sense of being able to say for sure that
the child is autistic, but I think she would in many cases be
able to see an indication in that direction.

Of course, your question also leads deeper. It is difficult for
me as a man to get answers about the nature of fate right, but
let me at least provide some thoughts.

I think family influences show clearly in birth charts, but
the direct influence while the child grows up should also not
be neglected. Human beings are not machines that simply run
the program in the birth chart, people are responsible to at
least try to make things good. It is very difficult to assign
guilt, because the guilt is relative to the forces acting on
people by their environment, and no single human being is
fully able to judge how these forces are. Scorpio, where quite
a few planets are now, has the unthankful task to probe the
forces as deeply as necessary to find out what the strongest
forces are and hence to give fate what she needs to decide.
It is important during that process that Scorpio does also
not go deeper than necessary for fate to decide.

The word "process" is also linked to this. Scorpio is one of
the adult signs (the four in the middle of the zodiac). As a
female sign, it stands for the mother and her role to raise
the child. During that process, she has sometimes to push a
bit, to get the child across some barriers that are unpleasant
but necessary for the healthy development of the child. The
mother as to ease the transition by giving emotional feedback
to the child and the process is typically also painful for the
mother, as typically each step in the process separates her a
bit more from her child while it grows up.

Sometimes Scorpio overdoes these things, gets to like the
power too much and goes too deep, comits hubris. It is not
a simple task and sometimes individual destinies have to
suffer in order to ease things on a larger scale. Nobody
likes that if one is the one who is to suffer. Scorpio is
similar to its opposite sign, Taurus; both want harmony.
Taurus is more oriented to making things pleasant on the
outside, real world and hence also brings some of the beauty
indirectly into the mind. Scorpio dreams of a world where
there are no hidden animosities, where there is emotional
harmony and tries to find and remove these wounds. For that
purpose he often uses the energies of people themselves,
egnites them and directs them to bring things out and let
them settle. Indirectly that has again a harmonising effect
on the outside, real world.

Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Just hidden triviality ? (Was: Physics bitten by reverse Alan Sokal  hoax?)
Date: Tue 3 Dec 2002 21:33:23 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-73E059.21332203122002@news.dplanet.ch>

In article <7t6ouukbopkujjsfelkr7dmd7tcr0qepht@4ax.com>,
 Arkadiusz Jadczyk <ark@cassiopaea.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:10:40 GMT, Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Alain Stalder wrote:
> >>
> >> Are the Bogdanov theses and papers science or not ?
> >[snip]
> >
> >John Baez remains unconvinced.  If and when they satisfy Baez, it
> >becomes credible (e.g., M-theory) even if not factually true.
>
> It is good to remember what Bertrand Russel wrote in his Sceptical
> Essays
>
> (I am quoting from memory as I do not have the book with me. Perhaps
> someone will be able to find the exact quote....);
>
> "Where experts do not agree, layman will do better by abstaining from
> opinion.
>
> ark
> --
>
> Arkadiusz Jadczyk
> http://www.cassiopaea.org/quantum_future/homepage.htm
>
> --

I agree with Uncle Al's statements. In this case, the final
assessment of the nature of the Bogdanov publications has to come
from experts in the field. I also recognize that the two brothers
are intelligent and creative, so that it is unlikely that their
works do not contain original content of some sort, even though
they may have created it in an unusual manner.

Regarding your quote from Bertrand Russel, I only agree
partially. In my opinion, non-experts should carefully weigh
whether to say something, they should not interfere lightly. But
in some situations an outsider has a better view than somebody
who is deeply immersed in the problem. Furthermore, not all
problems can be solved well by using logical thinking alone. Let
me give some examples.

In the book "Cuckoo's Egg", Clifford Stoll tells how he traced
and found a hacker that was based in Germany and spying out US
computers. Most solutions to the problems of tracing the hacker
came from Stoll himself (he is a physicist), and were rather of
technical nature. But one crucial idea that helped to keep the
hacker staying online at a particular computer came from Stoll's
girlfriend or wive. The idea was to produce fake secret documents
to spur the interest of the hacker - and it worked.

The integer square root algorithm by Dijkstra that I mentioned
is from a book where he describes a technique for developing
provably correct computer programs ("A Method of Programming",
Addison-Wesley, 1988). The general idea is as follows: You write
down the initial conditions and the final conditions for the
program and then try to construct a solution. Typically you start
with a trivial solution that is often not very efficient and then
you change a few things while keeping the conditions invariant.
The idea was initially to formalize this process totally, i.e. to
finally have the computer solve the problem for you. However, in
the end that did not work out. Dijkstra noted that in that
process, one often needed to "pull a rabbit out of the hat", i.e.
needed an original idea that could not be derived in a formal
way.

This brings me to Goedel's theorem. Some problems cannot be
solved within the system, one has to broaden the view in order to
make them decidable. Note that such problems are not that rare.
In his book "Nature and the Greeks", Schrodinger provides such an
example from projective geometry, a statement that is correct but
only provable in three dimensional space, but not in the plane.
(I remember that specially, because at the time when I was in
school, I actually solved that problem with visual imagination
when the teacher asked the class. Some school mates still
remember today that I "went up into space".)

I think it may not even be difficult to create statements that
are not decidable, and would not at all be surprised if the
Bogdanov brothers had explicitly created such statements.

One more thing about experts: In "Surely you're joking, Mr.
Feynman!", Feynman describes an argument he had with a painter.
The painter said that he could mix yellow paint from red and
white paint. Feynman did not believe that and the painter fetched
some paint to demonstrate, but finally had to concede that it did
not work that way, that the only thing you get from red and white
is pink.

In that sense, I feel that even though I am not exactly an expert
in, say, M-theory, as a physicist with experience of how things
are in nature, I can say some substantial things in this case,
which is not a purely formal problem that can be solved in
isolation, although it remains clear that the final assessment
will have to come from the experts. Good luck!

Alain Stalder

--

PS: Note that democracy could be considered the most striking
counterexample against Russel's quote. If you applied it, you
could conclude that politics should be entirely done by the
experts in politics, namely politicians, so that, for example,
the US President should be elected by congress, as well as
congress itself.

(Of course, the main problem here comes from the fact that what
politicians do affects everybody and not only the politicians. In
that sense, the "21 points" that Friedrich Durrenmatt wrote to go
along with his famous play "The Physicists" are certainly worth a
look (sorry, only the original german version appears to be
published on the web):
http://www.ejh.de/osna/ag-muk/21punkte.htm )

Subject: Re: Proposal for two new newsgroups
Date: Wed 4 Dec 2002 20:48:08 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-D51A40.20480804122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <2a0cceff.0212040253.7af9e420@posting.google.com>,
 nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:

> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:<astalder-D97714.08280802122002@news.bluewin.ch>...
>
> > I think this is generally a good idea, the gap between
> > sci.physics and sci.physics.research is too big.
>
> It is -- but if more thoughtful and educated people like yourself
> would take the trouble to participate a bit in sci.physics, and filter
> the cranks which will become obvious to you by volume, the gap would
> narrow.
>
> Creating more groups is like appealing to the government to regulate
> drugs because otherwise you just can't stop yourself from buying crack
> each time you walk out on the street -- maybe just a pinch this sime
> -- and wake up cursing days later.  If only the streets were safe for
> a person with my weakness!
>
> Arguing with cranks is like smoking crack -- an initial rush, then
> despair.  Discipline, not regulation, is the answer.
>
> > For my taste sci.physics has lost usefulness for most parts. It
> > is hard to find really interesting stuff. Many discussions are
> > not about facts and ideas, but contain rather personal attacks.
> > Also, since there are so many posts, I get the impression that
> > many people are reading things too superficially and replying
> > accordingly.
>
> And you just can't bother yourself to set up an automatic killfile to
> deal with those who mostly post empty personal attacks, but want a
> moderator to volunteer for the duty?
>
> Oops ... sounds a bit like a personal attack.  But what I see from
> most people who say "I would participate in sci.physics if only ..."
> is laziness and the desire to be spoon fed.  If it's too much trouble
> to set up a filter, I have to wonder what your interest level is in
> the first place.
>
> Of course, there is always the annoying possibility of being shown
> wrong in public by the unqualified -- I think that's the real risk
> which keeps many shy professionals at bay.

Let me just present an idea how to solve the "filtering problem"
in a new way.

Conventionally, you either need a moderated newsgroup or else
everybody has to set their filters in their newsreader. These
automatic filters are limited, some (human) readers may only be
interested in specific topics at a specific time, or some posters
may generally only produce posts that interest a reader once in a
while. Just "killing" a poster in the newsreader is not totally
useless, but also not fully satisfying. More sophisticated
automatic filters help, but are still limited. If you make them
too restrictive you run the danger of missing some interesting,
special stuff, if you leave them too much open, you still have
some trouble finding things that really interests you.

Say, you put up a web site that collects all posts that go to the
sci.physics.* newsgroups. Then you offer people the opportunity
to assign a category to the posts and maybe also to rate them.
You could have, say, "Uncle Al's Real World Physics" or "Ed's
Favorites". Other visitors of the site get the chance to create
their favorite profile, say only posts that are on the above two
lists, except when they are posted, say, by "Peter Pan". That
gives you a combination of automatic filtering and human
judgment, while leaving the choice of what you want to look at
completely open. Since there appear to be quite a few people who
read the physics newsgroups daily, maybe they would not mind much
to categorize and maybe rate each post they read (provided the
interface for doing so is simple enough).

How do you get people to visit the web site instead of just using
their newsreaders ? Just post a message that announces the web
site daily to non-moderated newsgroups, and in longer intervals
to moderated newsgroups (whatever their charter allows).

Of course, I do not sell this as the solution of all problems,
just as some input that may be useful in the process of making
things better.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
Date: Wed 11 Dec 2002 21:41:09 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C011E2.21410111122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <OhGJ9.31665$Vz2.8980771@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
 "Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:

> < re-re-re-sending...:) >
>
> On Gemini:
> "The butterfly brings joy and magic only if it's allowed to fly free."--Liz
> Greene
>
>   Here it is my intention to show how the natal charts of astrologers
> innocently bias what the astrologer chooses to express the meaning of chart
> symbols: I don't think anyone is immune to the effect of their own
> individuality:
>
> Liz Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
>    Like the theoretical butterfly effect and its possible influence on
> worldwide weather patterns, as described in the science of Chaos, natal
> aspects seem to be infinitesimal currents on a distant psychological
> continent which somehow tip a delicate balance and cause a cascading,
> evolving, pattern of larger currents in our waking
> consciousness/personality/persona.  Natal aspects appear to be biasing
> agents of sorts which influence our selection of what we will notice and
> apply to for the purpose of expressing our own tailored meanings.  These
> lobbyists influencing our senate of sentience, seem to work best when we are
> paying little or no attention to the unpublished, behind the scenes, details
> of our personality's legislative committees in smoke-filled chambers. Can we
> use Liz's chart to show how the butterfly metaphor became the Gemini Party's
> most elect-able candidate?  How does a metaphor attract our personal
> allegiance and or serve our socio-political purposes?
>
> The flitting, oscillating, unstable-looking freedom of Uranus is found here
> in Gemini and is emphasized by its opposition to the Moon of mundane
> personal experience and the conjunction of the so-called benifics, Venus and
> Jupiter, in equivocating Libra.
> http://home.stny.rr.com/pedantus/Greene_L_01.gif
>
>    Gee, I wonder why the butterfly metaphor was selected to carry the
> author's meaning concerning Gemini.  Was it simply calculated? Was a light
> bulb inspiration? Was just too charming a pet notion? Was it generated by a
> computer program?...:)  LOL
>
> Rog

I think at least the association of "butterfly" with Gemini is
not a matter of taste or bias, but simply correct:

Gemini are the first air sign, made mainly of fire and only
slightly of water*. Compared to Libra or Aquarius, Gemini are
more unpredictable, like when and where a butterfly rests or
flies. Things are not as transparent yet as for Libra and
Aquarius (also since Gemini are the youngest air sign), the
surface is visible, the play with unification from "2" to "1" is
only starting; the two wings of a butterfly move quickly when it
flies or slowly when it rests, and then they often merge
apparently into a single one. Gemini are the last sign of the
spring, when butterflies fly from flower to flower (this is maybe
not strictly correct in nature, but it is at least what is
asscicated psychologically with the later part of spring).
Finally, I assume that the association of the butterfly with
Gemini is very old, that it can be found in many old sources
about astrology.

* see http://www.exactphilosophy.net or a previous post by me:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-B3941C.06261208092002%40news
..dplanet.ch&output=gplain

According to the chart you indicated, Liz Greene has several
planets in Libra, i.e. that indicates many deep, but not fully
resolved insights into the world (see * too). Her roots (MC) in
Pisces fit well with the fact that she seldom says anything
definitely in public that is not correct; what she says is
typically just natural (of course, this may just be my own bias,
but I think this is rather not significantly the case here).
These things together lead to many statements that contain just
the right words like magic (see "magic" in  quote), probably
without too much conscious awareness of it. Libra often just
creates a resonance in people that can be helpful in resolving
complexes without a need to analyze and make conscious.
(Mathematically speaking, Libra is rather operating in frequency
space, not in real space).

In that sense, the other words in the quote fit very well too:
"brings", "joy", "magic", the word "and" when connecting them,
"only", "allowed", "fly", "free".

One more example: At the 2000 Astrology World Congress she gave
a talk about the 12th house and associated "clandestine
relationships" with it. If you detach a bit from the current
meaning, a clandestine relationship is merely a relationship that
is more related to the "destiny" of your "clan" (your family in
broad sense, the background that you come from) than to your own
personal destiny.

So, in the end, it does not matter much to me how astrologers
get it right, as long as they do. She also once mentioned that
artists often don't want to analyze themselves, to make such
things conscious - for fear to loose their creativity. So...

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
Date: Thu 12 Dec 2002 08:16:22 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-02329E.08160312122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <SGOJ9.33384$Vz2.9492594@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
 "Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:

>   My wife once asked me, "..how did Europe get men on horses to charge water
> cooled machine guns in WW1?"
>     "They start by teaching the critical importance of uniformly correct
> penmanship." I said...:)

I am a physicist. I am interested in how nature is. I judge what
somebody writes about nature primarily by whether it corresponds
to experiment, including my own experience. I don't "believe in
the theory of relativity" because everybody thinks Einstein was a
great physicist, but because the predictions of relativity are
correct, because GPS works, for example.

Liz Greene describes the nature of psyche. For a scientist she
provides great material in my experience (what she writes fits
well with what I experience and observe in the world). Especially
in the beginning it was crucial for me as a male scientist to
have material that fits with experience and contains very little
real errors. Of course, everything that a person writes is
colored by his/her psyche, by his/her birth chart and
environment. And the perception of that coloration is also
relative to who reads it. I, for example, never managed to read
anything by C.G. Jung, with the interesting exception of the
article "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle".
Apparently that article was written with assistance by the
physicist Wolfgang Pauli. I guess this removed most of what
usually disturbed me when reading Jung, namely that I could not
find out what to remember of it, what was just personal
preference by Jung and what was more generally true. Sometimes
it takes an intermediary reader to gain access to some
interesting information.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
Date: Thu 12 Dec 2002 12:37:05 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-7C29B6.12365112122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <OhGJ9.31665$Vz2.8980771@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
 "Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:

[...]
> Liz Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
>    Like the theoretical butterfly effect and its possible influence on
> worldwide weather patterns, as described in the science of Chaos, natal
> aspects seem to be infinitesimal currents on a distant psychological
> continent which somehow tip a delicate balance and cause a cascading,
> evolving, pattern of larger currents in our waking
> consciousness/personality/persona. [...]

I think the question of how much in life is fate and how much is
chaos/chance has quite a bit to do with Gemini/Hermes. I guess if
the guy who came up with the illustration for chaos theory would
have chosen, say, a fly instead of a butterfly, probably a lot
less people would have been fascinated by it.

During election night of the 2000 US presidential election,
Mercury switched from retrograde to forward motion. In what
followed, the word "butterfly" appeared too, namely in the famous
"butterfly ballot". If I remember the facts correctly, that
ballot was designed to be easier to read (it was for Palm Beach
County, where there is apparently a larger percentage of elderly
people than average). Since the font for typing the names of the
candidates had to be larger and the distance between where holes
had to be punched for choosing a candidate were fixed, they idea
was to print the names of the candidates on alternative sides of
the places where the holes were to be punched.

Apparently many people misunderstood the ballot, resulting in a
significantly higher vote for Pat Buchanan than in neighbouring
counties. In fact, the difference would have very probably been
sufficient for a different candidate to become president. The
counting procedures also reflect Gemini themes. I remember people
looking at the surface of ballots in order to see if a hole was
punched through deeply enough to see light pass through.

This raises at least two questions:

a) How would the world be if Al Gore had been elected ? Would
there be such pressure on Iraq ? Would 9/11 happened ? (Not at
all, but maybe a much bigger catastrophe sometime in the future ?
Something similar but on another date ? etc.)
b) Was it foreseeable for America that the election could be so
close, that a few thousand votes in Palm Beach could have made
the difference ? Was the butterfly ballot unconsciously and
collectively planned or was it just randomness, chance, chaos ?

I think nobody knows the answers, nor even knows how they
could ever be answered...

The singer Prince, who has the sun in Gemini, writes in a song
text "There's joy in repetition".

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
Date: Fri 13 Dec 2002 07:51:48 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C1C88B.07512813122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <L50K9.38813$Vz2.10423592@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
 "Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:

> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-7C29B6.12365112122002@news.bluewin.ch...
 [...]
> > I think the question of how much in life is fate and how much is
> > chaos/chance has quite a bit to do with Gemini/Hermes. I guess if
> > the guy who came up with the illustration for chaos theory would
> > have chosen, say, a fly instead of a butterfly, probably a lot
> > less people would have been fascinated by it.
>
>    All that means, to me, is that a fly doesn't 'work' as a communicable
> symbol for the idea.
> BTW, I would check the chart of anyone coining such an image, whatever.
>    But, when and if a man chooses to call it the turnip effect, then we have
> something to work with..:)

What I wanted to say was simply that in order for such an image
to be publicly successful, it must fit. Sure, if you are pedantic
you can find counterexamples, but mostly this is true. So there
is natural selection (in the sense of Darwin) that filters out
images that correspond to the collective and unconscious
structure of human culture. If you are pedantic, you can also
counter that such images are often just fashionable, in other
words mostly influenced by the time in which they are popular.
The longer an idea rests popular, typically the more it is
universal. (I am sure there are counterexamples here, too, if you
are really pedantic, but mostly it is true).

I am from the generation with Pluto in Virgo. It makes sense to
be pedantic up to a point, to look into details and not to judge
things in too broad ways, but that can also become too much like
the princess and the pea. The more you look into details, the
more you loose the view of the whole. (Yes, if you are pedantic,
you can counter that analysis is required to recognize
connections, to create the right "wholes", instead of the usual
ones that are filled with errors). You cannot analyze every
detail in life. This is by far impossible. I think even the most
pedantic mind cannot counter that. Hence analysis is best applied
selectively. Yes, I am sure there are again counterexamples, but
mostly it is true. Moreover, the more time you invest in analysis,
the less time remains for enjoying life - yes, I am sure there
are again counterexamples, if you are really pedantic.


[...]
> > b) Was it foreseeable for America that the election could be so
> > close, that a few thousand votes in Palm Beach could have made
> > the difference ?
>
>    I'm sure the party bean counters did actually did how close it would be.

I do not want to be too pedantic, but the crucial question here
is: when ? Before or after the butterfly ballot was created ?
I suspect that it was quite a bit after the ballot was created.
(As far as I remember, the ballot had to be published in a
newspaper and it had to be accepted in some formal way; such
administrative things typically take quite some time).

I was selective in choosing what to reply too. I think it would
maybe be a bit too pedantic to criticize that I did not answer to
all remarks, but maybe I was not pedantic enough and overlooked
the best parts of the reply. Again, If you are really pedantic,
you can counter that all parts are interesting, if you just
analyze them deeply enough. So, my reply describes my personal
bias too, but it would probably be too pedantic to limit what
somebody replies to that, although it is certainly part of it.

There's joy in repetition.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: science is a belief system that can not be proven
Date: Fri 13 Dec 2002 22:34:53 CET
Newsgroups: sci.math,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-1E32DD.22345313122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <w2jK9.49027$Ti2.7426@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
 "Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would like to challenge that science is a system that is able to
> conclude on truth or falseness of a scientific claim.
> The consequence of this claim, is that it is impossible to
> attribute 100 % certainty TRUE or 100 % certainty FALSE
> to any statement in the real world.

Sorry if I don't reply to your post in detail. Instead, let me
formalize the problem somewhat, to make it maybe more simple to
think about these things.

To stake the frame, let me make the usual assumptions in physics,
namely that a real world with other people in it exists. (All of
these can be challenged philosophically, but I will stick to them
here; besides they are my most likely guess at how things are).

1. Experimental results are a heap of numbers. They can be
represented by a sequence of N bits, where N is a very large, but
finite number.

2. A scientific theory is computer program with M bits that
reproduces the sequence of N bits exactly, where M is smaller
than N (and hence also finite).

3. Science aims to find the simplest theory, i.e. a program with
the smallest M.

Q1: Can you be sure that the theory will fit future experimental
data ?

No, you cannot. Experience shows that it typically works very
well, and especially so if the parameters in your application or
experiment are close to the parameters in previous experimental
tests.

Q2: Can you prove that a theory is the simplest theory ?

In principle you can, you just run all 2^M programs that are
smaller than your current best theory and see if they reproduce
the experimental data.

In practice this is impossible already for very small M, at least
if you are using a classical computer. One issue is time: current
cryptography still uses keys with of the order of 100 bits. The
second issue is energy: you need at least an energy kT to flip a
bit in a classical computer. Around very roughly 200 bits, you
start to need energy of the order of the mass of the sun, a few
bits more and you need the Milky Way, etc.

Q3: Could a quantum computer provide information about the
simplest theory ?

Let me split that up and make it more specific:

Q3a: Could it find the shortest program in less than exponential
time ?
Q3b: Could it find out in less than exponential time how long the
shortest program would be ?
Q3c: Could it find out in less than exponential time whether a
given program is the shortest one ?
Q3d: Or at least provide a probability for Q3c ?

Is there any published work concerning these questions ? I know
there are efficient search algorithms for quantum computers. Can
they be applied in this situation ? Are there maybe simple
arguments that allow to answer any of the above questions with No ?

Why should you care ? Well, if there are no simple ways to answer
the above questions with no, even the slightest chance that the
answer might be Yes is compelling, as any positive answer would
probably have great impact on science - but it is too early to
speculate too much about that.

So, any specific ideas about the answers to Q1a-d ?

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: science is a belief system that can not be proven
Date: Sat 14 Dec 2002 07:49:30 CET
Newsgroups: sci.math,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-92B01A.07493014122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <gcpK9.49596$Ti2.7639@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
 "Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:

> "Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> schreef in bericht
> news:3DF9FBD2.1FD13B4A@hate.spam.net...
>
> > Start by getting it correct:  Science tests for falsification.  There
> > is no "truth" stated or implied.  Absent empirical contradiction you
> > have a working model (theory).  If it has some demonstrated sore spots
> > but is still useful, it is a heuristic.
>
> Well, everything can be better ...
>
> What about the following, using your descriptions above :
>
> Today's scientific working model contradicts empirical observation
> concerning consciousness, as it does not predict it, yet it exists.

I agree, science has its limitations.

Let me initially keep the assumption of my previous post, namely:
there is a real world with other people in it.

I described experimental data as numbers (which is Pythagoras'
idea for describing the world, the basic idea behind all exact
science), but omitted how one gets to the numbers; i.e. I did not
talk about the process of measurement.

The first thing you notice is that measurement cannot be
described using the exact methods of science: There are no
numbers yet, there is nothing yet to apply formulas to.

An experimental fact requires an agreement between people on how
to measure things. Since people only have the same opinion about
some rather direct experiences, those are what constitute the
accepted set of experimental data. These are very simple things
like, for example, how to measure the time a ball needs to drop
or how to read a dial.

Since the conscious minds of people are required to do these
measurements and to judge the validity of a measurement, it is
clear that at least that required part of consciousness is
potentially difficult to describe by science. It is arguable that
if people collectively changed their minds about what they accept
as primary experimental data, that science would be different.

I have written some concrete stuff around these issues. I did the
following: Tentatively, I accepted my personal feelings as facts,
just to see where it would lead, with the idea to find and
formulate scientific hypotheses, i.e. questions to nature that
can be answered by experiments that are again based on today's
commonly agreed rules of what is an experimental fact. In other
words, I started with something unusual, just to bring it back
into the usual in the end.

I wrapped this stuff up into a few dozen hypotheses, that span
several issues related to consciousness, but have mostly not
been accessible to exact science.

The document is available at http://www.exactphilosophy.net
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Uncle Al initially called it a "540K pdf of unjustifiable boring
crap.  Even L. Ron Hubbard would puke."

I could live with boring and crap, and I would also not mind if
Ron Hubbard would puke (if he was still alive), but unjustifiable
is not correct. As Uncle Al pointed out in a previous post,
science is only falsifiable. All hypotheses in my document are
carefully crafted to be compatible with existing experimental
data. And, they are specific enough to be tested experimentally
within the next few years. Sure, the document may contain logical
errors and is debatable to some degree, but since the hypotheses
are explicitly crafted to be compatible with existing
experimental data, the best way to discuss them would be to try
to name existing experimental results in detail that falsify the
hypotheses, or else to conduct new experiments.

I cannot expose the full content here in a single thread.

Let me just say that it makes some original statements about
phenomena like telepathy or precognition (which have not been
experimentally verified so far, but also not falsified in the
specific form that I propose), and about the possibly important
role of unconscious and collective beliefs on our actions. That
would for example explain why homeopathy can be effective, not
merely for people who believe consciously in it, but even for
everybody, because it is possibly an unconscious belief that is
shared by practically everyone. For the same reasons, I also
argue that astrology has an impact on everybody's lives, not only
on people who consciously believe in it, but on everybody. It is
important to stress here, that I again view astrology as a
psychological phenomenon, that is not related to planets and
stars in the sky, but merely to unconscious and collective
beliefs about them that date back to ancient times in our
culture. I do provide a specific simple model of astrology that
is testable in a quantitative way. The foundation of the model
is closely connected to ancient greek philosophy, specifically
Aristotle's view of the four elements, which sounds reasonable,
since current (western) astrology essentially got today's form
by the ancient greeks.

I could only skim the surface here. I hope this has still
generated enough interest in the document to read it, and maybe
to discuss some of the new ideas concerning old questions in
public. I regularly check sci.physics, sci.physics.research and
alt.astrology.moderated, but if you want to be sure to reach me,
just post anywhere and mail me a copy.

Alain Stalder

--
PS: One thing about reading the document: It is intended to be
read quite strictly from beginning to end. Later sections draw
heavily on earlier hypotheses. If you start reading it somewhere
in the middle, it will almost certainly just appear to be
nonsense. Furthermore, it is written very densely, so that it
may appear to be just unconnected nonsense, merely because not
every logical connection that can be made by an intelligent
and attentive reader has been made explicit in the document.
This is the stuff you might want only to read if you have time
and are interested in a few really new ideas, say during the
christmas holidays ? It is fun and challenging. Give it a try!

Subject: Re: science is a belief system that can not be proven
Date: Sat 14 Dec 2002 12:10:33 CET
Newsgroups: sci.math,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-9288D4.12103314122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <w2jK9.49027$Ti2.7426@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
 "Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:

> With that being done, I can find lots of scientists that
> are currently researching paranormal phenomena, and
> "changed their belief for a reason" (Pauli, Einstein in the
> past, see web references for recent research on many
> universities), and that confirm the existence.

Did you have in mind to post web references for recent research
along with the post ? If yes, please post them.

I was aware of Pauli's interest in "paranormal" phenomena. He was
in contact with C. G. Jung, which shows, in my opinion, in the
quality of Jung's essay of 1952 called "Synchronicity: An
Accausal Connecting Principle" (in "The Structure and Dynamics of
the Psyche", Princeton, 1969). (I never managed to read anything
else by Jung, it was too far from anything tangible for me, I
never could tell what to remember, what was just Jung's personal
opinion and what was more generally correct. I guess Pauli's
influence must have helped a lot in that respect, at least in the
first part of the essay; after all it was Pauli who expressed his
disgust for things that are "not even false"). I am not sure
about Einstein's opinions in detail, I estimate his views were
probably quite subtle. And I would certainly be interested in
links to current researchers who do serious, careful work about
anything called "paranormal". Whether their results would confirm
anything, remains to be examined.*

I liked reading your article. I think there is original
interesting stuff in it. Thanks!

Alain Stalder

--
* This explains maybe why many physicists appear just to be
conservative. One has to be very careful before something new is
admitted into physics in form of a theory. Only if the evidence
is crystal-clear, can it be accepted in. With regard to *finding*
new theories, however, many physicists are, in my opinion, often
too conservative. The possibilities have to be explored. It is
precisely the job of a physicist to got out into the world of
possibilities where nothing is even false, and extract some
specific hypotheses from there that can be falsified or verified
in experiment (verified in this context is always meant - as
Uncle Al pointed out - in the sense of being useful as a working
model, as being of practical use, not in the sense of an absolute
eternal truth). Of course, there are also two other ways of
making progress in science, namely by expanding experiments to
new regimes and exploring the logical consequences of existing
theories, although both of them yield usually more conservative
results (but not always, and the exceptions are crucial here,
e.g. relativity and quantum mechanics).

Subject: Re: [yank]Re: We are moving near speed of light
Date: Sat 14 Dec 2002 15:47:43 CET
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta,sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-05D811.15474314122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <uGmK9.49358$Ti2.7563@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
 "Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:

[...]
> > "Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:AylK9.49267$Ti2.7077@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
 [...]
> > > Using Einstein's equivalence between gravity and
> > > accelleration, I wonder the following :
> > >
> > > I have experienced continuous acceleration of 1g
> > > since my birth, and I can not distinguish between
> > > acceleration and gravity : they are equivalent.
> > >
> > > Hence, I can conclude that I have been accelerated
> > > for several years with 1g, and I am currently moving
> > > at speeds near the velocity of light, looking from
> > > the correct framework. Acceleration is real, so
> > > my velocity is real as well.
 [...]
> Question is, has anyone dealt with the gravity-
> acceleration equivalence and tried to derive a "real-
> world description" from the assumption that we are
> moving near speed of light right now?
>
> Of course, this assumed the "hidden" assumption that
> earth is flat, but that description is allowed for by the
> combination of (1) Poincaré that states that any set
> of experiences can be clarified by an infinite amount
> of different theories, and (2) a particular theory that
> explains how earth could be flat, but experienced
> spherical. The latter you can find with the above engines.
>
> I only want to know if somebody has tried to describe
> such theoretical construct from within physics.

I think what you are saying might be "not even false", unless it
is made more specific. In relativity theory, and hence in
experiment within experimental precision, acceleration is not
relative, but velocity is. Maybe relativity will be replaced by
another theory in the future, but as long you are not specific
about by what it would be replaced, it is difficult to say
something specific about the consequences. Some theories can be
excluded, some cannot.

It is very difficult to do philosophy these days. If you stay
very abstract, you can do it, but as soon as you start to discuss
some concrete things in the physical world, like velocity and
acceleration, you have to know modern physics well, else what you
are saying is almost certainly not compatible with current
theories and experiments. Sure, you can escape by saying that
there are in principle theories in which anything you are saying
would be true and compatible with experiment, but since that can
always be said, it does not help much.

The difficult part is getting specific.

In "Surely you are joking, Mr. Feynman", Feynman describes how a
high military officer told Feynman his great idea for solving the
problem of providing tanks with fuel: You simply use dirt to fuel
the tank. Accoring to Feynman, the officer thought that now that
he had solved the principal problem, it would be up to Feynman to
handle the technical details.

Note that this is not at all meant as a personal attack, I just
wanted to point out where the difficulties are in getting
physics right.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: [yank]Re: We are moving near speed of light
Date: Sat 14 Dec 2002 20:11:30 CET
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta,sci.physics
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-1EB307.20113014122002@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <XpKK9.50913$Ti2.8013@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
 "Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:

> The question arose from my attempt to "think in limits" :
> suppose gravity simply "is" acceleration, but we do not see
> it as such because of the way we interpret our environment
> using existing theories (earth is sphere etc.).

If you put it that way, the idea is interesting. Maybe an
equivalent picture of reality can be found that is compatible
with the mathematics of general relavity, at least I cannot
exclude that from the top of my head - but I am also not an
expert on general relativity. I will give it some thought.

Thanks again,

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Some questions on decoherence and QM.
Date: Mon 13 Jan 2003 23:30:49 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A850F5.13133713012003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3E1C9025.A2D5A6CB@uni-essen.de>,
 Urs Schreiber <Urs.Schreiber@uni-essen.de> wrote:

> Frank Hellmann wrote:

> > A measurement of the quantum system described by rho in generally still
> > has a propability for both classically exclusive states though, so we
> > still have a superposition of classically exclusive states.
>
> The last phrase must read: "a *mixture* of classical states".
>
> Using the density operator one is bound to talk about
> statistics only. Decoherence cannot and does not explain "how"
> a system chooses from the possible outcomes a specific one
> when we measure it. Decoherence only explains how the "quantum
> probability" becomes a "classical probability", very roughly
> speaking, but it still only gives probabilities.

It is worthwhile to explain what exactly "classical" means in
this context. This is maybe most easily seen if Schroedinger's
Gedankenexperiment is combined with the experiment for testing
Bell's Inequality:

Two entangled photons fly in opposite directions and then each
pass through polarization filters. A photon detector after each
filter either kills or does not kill a cat on each side,
depending on whether the respective photon has passed through
the polarization filter.

Decoherence tells us that each cat quickly ends up in a state
with a density matrix that is practically diagonal. Or, more
loosely put, the cat is "either dead or alive, but not both".
Can we conclude that whether the cat is dead or alive is already
determined, that an experimentator who looks inside to discover
either a dead or a living cat will only note what was already
determined before ?

No, because Bell's Inequality excludes any local hidden variable
theories in which for both cats it would already be determined
whether the cats are dead or alive. In other words, "classical"
means in this context only that you cannot do interference with
Schroedinger's cats, i.e. that they statistically behave like
measured cats, but not that measurement has already occured
through decoherence.

Hence some of the "strangeness" of quantum mechanics remains,
especially if you modify the above Gedankenexperiment to include
what is typically called "Wigner's Friend". Replace each cat by
an experimentator who looks at the detector, and place two other
experimentators outside the respective labs.

Now, when does measurement occur ? When the inner experimentators
look at the detectors, or when the outer experimentators open the
doors to the respective labs and ask the guys inside about what
they have measured ? At least decoherence tells us that we cannot
distinguish experimentally between the two possibilities, because
in both cases all experimentators behave statistically classical.

In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
at least not yet.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Some questions on decoherence and QM.
Date: Mon 20 Jan 2003 20:05:46 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C49E20.23003518012003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3e26ad2e_1@news.arcor-ip.de>,
 Frank Hellmann <C.i.m@gmx.net> wrote:

> > In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
> > measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
> > at least not yet.
> >
> > Alain Stalder
>
> Thanks a lot, that was more or less exactly what I wanted to know there.

My first reply to the above (it may appear as the second reply
in the group, depending on in which order moderators process
the two posts) was essentially nonsense.

Concerning the consequences of decoherence for the interpretation
of measurement, the following e-print by H. D. Zeh is probably
worth reading: "What is achieved by Decoherence?", quant-ph/9610014

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Some questions on decoherence and QM.
Date: Wed 22 Jan 2003 04:42:48 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-3C452F.14270318012003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <3e26ad2e_1@news.arcor-ip.de>,
 Frank Hellmann <C.i.m@gmx.net> wrote:

> > It is worthwhile to explain what exactly "classical" means in
> > this context. This is maybe most easily seen if Schroedinger's
> > Gedankenexperiment is combined with the experiment for testing
> > Bell's Inequality:
>
> [snip]
>
> Are there experiments on this interesting combination verifying the
> Gedankenexperiment?

The EPR experiment with the largest distance between detectors
that I know of is the one by the Zeilinger group of 1998, where
the distance was about 400 meters, see quant-ph/9810080 and
http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/research/bellexp

If you wanted to explicitly test something like the "Wigner's
Friend setup" that I proposed, you would have to separate the
detectors by at least a few light seconds (in order to give each
outer experimentator enough time to ask the guy inside the lab).
My motivation for doing the Gedankenexperiment was mainly to
explore the consequences of quantum mechanics, whereas an actual
experiment would only really be interesting in the, arguably
rather unlikely, case where it would yield something different
than expected from quantum mechanics.

> > In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
> > measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
> > at least not yet.
> >
> > Alain Stalder
>
> Thanks a lot, that was more or less exactly what I wanted to know there.

I hope my conclusion is correct. My understanding of decoherence
may not be deep enough, but if decoherence is just applied quantum
mechanics, a system prepared in a state |S> = a|A> + b|B>, with
|A> and |B> linearly independent, cannot be brought into a state
proportional to either |A> or |B> by any linear operator, so that
statistical experimental results that are equal to what would be
expected from some systems in state |A> and some in |B> with given
probabilities, have to come about in decoherence by considering
the system including its environment.

If this view is correct, I would be very much interested in a
simple example that makes the difference explicit.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Some questions on decoherence and QM.
Date: Thu 23 Jan 2003 02:03:53 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-84CD8B.22103722012003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <Xns9309EE696B7B4dwinemiuattbiNONcom@216.148.227.77>,
 David Winsemius <dwin$emiu$@attbi.NONcom> wrote:

> I suspect that this layering of "someone has to look" on top of the
> measurement question has been very misleading. The Sun continues to shine,
> trees fall in the woods, all without experimentors. I know that common
> sense is not always the ruler in QM, but the orderly progression of the
> universe (both macro and micro) ought to but some constraints on the
> axioms.

Decoherence can be considered a step away from the special role that
the experimentator plays in the Copenhagen Interpretation, towards
a more natural description that describes everything in the world
in a unified way, i.e. in the end including experimentator and
detectors*. This shift appears at least qualitatively similar to what
happened in astronomy a few hundred years ago: With man at the center
of the universe, it was no problem to predict planetary positions
with an accuracy that was sufficient for all practical purposes, by
summing over epicycles. In retrospect, however, people did not really
have a clue what was going in the sky until people like Galilei and
Newton managed to find a different and much simpler perspective.

The future of science is always open, but it is still interesting to
note that up to now what has lead to practically all of the progress
in quantum mechanics (at low energies) has come simply from applying
the theory in new ways, and not from disagreement with experiment.
I remain curious.

Alain Stalder

--
* The informal poll that Tegmark and Wheeler mention in their SciAm
article (quant-ph/0101077) gives some indication that people are
shifting away from interpretations with an explicit collapse of the
wave function, most likely because decoherence already explains why
macroscopic objects behave statistically classical, independent of
a conscious observer.

Subject: Re: Some questions on decoherence and QM
Date: Thu 23 Jan 2003 20:46:09 CET
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-E90CD4.07412523012003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <b0lg93$p5m$1@glue.ucr.edu>, baez@galaxy.ucr.edu (John Baez)
wrote:

> Eh?  You can certainly find a linear operator that maps
> any state |S> = a|A> + b|B> to either |A>, or to |B>.
> You can even find a unitary one that does the job.

Yes, of course. My statement is so bluntly wrong that it
might even qualify as a case of "chess blindness".

I wrote in <astalder-C49E20.23003518012003@news.bluewin.ch>:

> My first reply to the above (it may appear as the second reply
> in the group, depending on in which order moderators process
> the two posts) was essentially nonsense.

It did appear first, what maybe rather added than removed
confusion.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: About Uranus in Pisces
Date: Sun 2 Mar 2003 15:42:28 CET
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-CE72BD.15421502032003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <b3rgh4$9ic$1@reader11.wxs.nl>,
 "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:

> Jean mentions March but Uranus retrogrades during the year and re-enters
> Pisces for good on 30th December. Which ingress counts?

Feeling: The crucial moment, like at birth, is when two things
meet (child/world) or separate (child/mother) for the first time,
so March 10 is more important, but December 30 has some influence
too (probably more in the short term after December 30). Like in
countries, later "founding dates" have some influence too.

Logic: Uranus switches signs three times in 2001 (into Pisces,
back into Aquarius, into Pisces again). Each moment of entry at
least influences the corresponding period from entry to exit.
Influence of the March 10 entry for a longer period cannot be
excluded.

Reality: There are no quantitative experimental results that
would allow to distinguish between the two hypotheses (first
entry influences whole resp. only the first period). Astrology
has so far essentially resisted all quantitative tests.

Fire: Astrology is not as complex as it may seem at first sight;
just like chemistry is not as complex as it appears (and
appeared to be during the middle ages). Well-defined and simple
things can be said about the 12 signs of the zodiac, see:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
I say (leo), the hypotheses can be tested experimentally. Then,
and only then, will we know for sure which moment is stronger
and to what degree. The prospects of such insights are simply
fascinating! Take a look at a whole new world of possibilites,
visit http://www.exactphilosophy.net today and the world will
forever be changed !

The world is both the sum and in-between these four elements,
between the naive imagination of fire and today's hard facts,
between the logical possibilities and how it feels to be.
I think the next few years will be quite a bit also about
enjoying the beauty of the world with all its possibilities
and secrets, although most possibilities will remain imagined
"only" and will have to wait to be realized until Uranus moves
forward into Aries in 2010 or so ...

Alain Stalder

--
|:| :|:


Subject: Franz Kafka - Das Schloss
Date: Tue 1 Apr 2003 00:03:17 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A96C57.00022701042003@news.bluewin.ch>

Franz Kafka - Das Schloss

The unfinished novel "Das Schloss" (the castle/lock) by Franz Kafka
was written probably between late January and August 1922. Since at
that time Uranus was near the beginning of Pisces (as it is now) and
Kafka's horoscope has some properties that give his writings quite
a universal touch (both very abstract and very concrete through the
MC-IC axis Aries-Libra and very universal through Jupiter and sun
at the beginning of the 12th house - both in Cancer, like the USA),
I think the novel shows quite a few similarities to current events.

In the novel K. tries to cheat his way through, does not know about
the existence of the castle initially and yet pretends that the
count ordered him to come as a land surveyor. In other words, K.
went there without being asked to and lies about why he came there.
He remembers how in the days before his arrival he had advanced
steadily through deep snow, but now somehow the progress slows
down; when he tries to walk to the castle the day after his arrival,
the road seems rather to go around the castle than lead to it. In
the end he is stuck in deep snow and a farmer has to lay out a board
for him to step on. In other words, the aquarian focus on a unified
goal towards progress dissolves, because now other, more diverse
topics should get conscious attention. K. avoids (or fails) to make
contact with the people in the village and to understand them.
Instead he continues in his imagined fight to reach the castle. It is
also from that mindset that he ends up with Frieda who he saw
connected with a civil servant, but exactly through his sleeping with
her, he looses that connection.

And so on...

(The german original based on Kafka's handwritten manuscript is freely
available online at http://www.kafka.org/projekt/schloss/schloss.html ,
they also have a link to a good english translation, which is available
from amazon.com)

One myth fits many realities and one reality fits many myths. So I do
not want to overemphasise the associations that everybody immediately
makes today. It would at least be unfair towards Kafka's work that
goes well beyond that.

But it is true that many people are remaining stiffly focussed on their
goals of which they often falsely assume that others share them. This
appears to hit especially older people and the generation with Pluto in
Leo, a fixed sign, searching for a holy grail that will evaporate into
nothing, because they are failing to ask what purpose the grail serves.
Aries can often just do what he feels is right, based on a direct
realistic need, but Leo has to ensure that he applies his superior
burning focus only where it is desired by the world - just his own
egoistic needs are not sufficient. So the wheel turns on and the lion
will be wounded, as it is apparently necessary. After Pandora had
opened the box, and all the vices that Prometheus had tried to suppress
escaped, only hope remained in the box.

Say it in broken english...

Alain Stalder

(written in about 1 hour, starting at about 11 pm)

--
Could have come through anytime,
Cold lonely, puritan
What are you fighting for ?
It's not my security.
-- Marianne Faithful in Broken English
http://www.mondojohnson.com/songs/brokenenglish.php

Subject: 3+1
Date: Wed 9 Apr 2003 22:58:22 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-5887B2.21581009042003@news.bluewin.ch>

3+1

There is an interesting and maybe soothing connection between
recent global events:

1 - Dec 2000 George W. Bush President
2 - Sep 2001 Terrorist Attacks on USA
3 - Jun 2002 (Discovery of Quaoar ?)
4 - Mar 2003 Iraq War

(Don't worry, the text below will not be political, except maybe
in very broad terms)

The time difference between these four events is nine months
each, the time it takes for a baby to grow inside the mother's
belly, the time between conception and birth.

To the ancient greeks, numbers not only denoted quantities, but
also had quality.

The number 1 is unity, the beginning of the world. Unity
naturally splits into 2 opposites. When two things meet, like two
people, or two thoughts in the mind, or two chemical substances,
sometimes something new emgerges, hence number 3. The ancient
greeks associated the number pi (3.1414926...) with perfect
harmony, because it relates the diameter of a circle to its
circumference, and a circle represents harmony because all its
points are equal, are in equilibrium.

Hence it is understandable that the ancient greeks considered the
number 4 to be rather disharmonious, because it is about 6/7
bigger than pi, but still necessary to close the circle because
of the 1/7 that is needed to close the cycle. There are, for
example, quite a few fairy tales in which the third son of a king
or the third daughter is different from his/her older siblings
and the king (i.e. 3 are similar, the fourth is diffferent), but
it is usually only the 3rd child, the 4th in the group, that is
able to solve the families problems. In real families, the first
child (no. 3 in the family) is often more like the parents than
the second child (no. 4), who is quite sometimes rather the
"black sheep" of the family, the one that is considered less able
because he/she is different than the older 3.

There is also a clear connection between the numbers 1-4 and the
four astrological elements, which is maybe seen most easily from
meanings of aspects. Conjunction (division of the full circle of
360 by 1, 360=0), symbolizes unity, the melting of the purposes
of the involved planets into a single goal. It is related to the
element fire, which creates (unified visions), as fire produces
light.

The number 2 corresponds to opposition (360/2 = 180), symbolizing
the fight between the involved planets, and the element air (as
seen e.g. in the duality of Gemini and Libra's balancing of
opposites). The number 3 corresponds to the trine (360/3 = 120),
which represents harmony and passivity, which is understandable,
as 3 is just a bit smaller than pi, whereas 4 stands for squares
(360/4 = 90) that are disharmonious and force to act, and yet are
necessary for things to evolve. Trines are related to water, also
because 3 is born out of the union between two parents, i.e. 3
symbolizes also fate. The number 4 belongs to the fourth element,
earth, reality. This can also be seen from the fact that a grand
square is also a cross with two oppositions, where the cross is
the abstract notion of the tree, an important archetype of the
element earth.

These general meanings of numbers appear more often than expected
in reality. For example, on 9/11, four planes were destroyed and
everybody inside killed. The first two planes hit the twin towers
of the World Trade Center in New York. In other words, there is a
clear connection to air, especially to Gemini and Libra, because
it is *twin* towers and World *Trade* Center (the word merchant,
for example, comes from Mercury, the roman name for Hermes, the
greek god associated with Gemini).

The third plane hit the Pentagon, which can certainly be called
the heart of America's defence. The heart is where feelings are
considered to be, it symbolizes emotions, water. The fourth plane
crash was different. For one, the people inside the plane already
started to fight the terrorists, because they already knew what
was coming up. And possibly the plane was in addition shot down
by the US military, as some people suggested. Independently of
what happened exactly, the fourth plane crash was already part of
America's reaction to it, because it was Americans that started
to act and fight.

On a larger time scale, as suggested on top of this text, 9/11
with its grand trine in water signs, including Mercury at the
ascendent, and with its twin World Trade Towers fits well with
air and the number 2. As usual in the USA, americans accepted
their new president fully, independently of how narrowly he was
elected. (This reminds me a bit of what happens during birth, of
which Cancer is a symbol, namely that there are various people
interested in giving part of their fate to the to be born child,
but once the child is born, that is the moment that counts,
independently of whether, say, the father would have wanted a
different MC, those influences vanish). The fourth moment, the
war in Iraq appears to have the quality to close the circle, also
leaving open what exactly will follow next.

Of course, I do not know if the proposed third moment (Quaoar) is
really of global significance, the future will show. I have
mostly chosen it, because I could not see any important global
event happening around that time, but maybe I am wrong.

Shortly after World War II, the physicist Richard Feynman went
from Los Alamos, where he had helped to built the atomic bomb, to
Caltech, where he got a job as a professor. He describes that on
the train to LA, he wrote the first part of a lecture that he was
supposed to give at Caltech. He writes that at Los Alamos, they
always finished things just on time, so that he was astonished
when he arrived at Caltech and was told that lectures would not
start until the following week and that they had invited him
earlier so that he might have time to look around, search for a
place to stay etc. He writes that then he knew then that he was
back in zivilisation.

I guess most astrologers have noticed by now that that was very
probably shortly after the Saturn-Pluto opposition near the end
of WWII. Similarly, there have been 3 exact Saturn-Pluto
oppositions recently, and a relatively close encounter (no. 4)
one more time in March this year.

So, it is for these various general symbolic and astrological
reasons that I think that the immediate future will likely be a
bit less stressful for many people, that there will be more time
to look at things more than one time and to be more open for all
kinds of things, and to enjoy them again.

The American Dream is not only dreamt in the USA, in fact it is
maybe even mostly dreamt outside of, in all the countries who
have sent emigrants into it, in the hope that they will make the
world in the age of Aquarius a more human place to be. That is
also why America is judged more severely by countries outside of
it than any other country, exactly because people care.

Like everybody, I have no chance to really understand what is
really going on in the world, why things happen the way they
happen. It would be very interesting only to know what exactly
happened for one single small event, seen from all possible
angles, but that is probably not possible. In the science fiction
novel Solaris* by Stanislaw Lem, the ocean is at one point fed
with strong radiation that is modulated by the brain waves of the
psychologist Kelvin (maybe a bit like people on the internet are
writing posts to internet news groups). Relatively shortly
afterwards, the ocean produced a new structure, something that
nobody had ever seen before, maybe related to the radiation, but
probably not in any way that would be understandable by
individuals, since the ocean produced maybe two or three really
new things per year anyway, a bit like our own world we are
living in.

I will write down the things I found out about astrology, like
meanings of numbers** or, most importantly, how the signs of the
zodiac can be described by simple variations of just four
elementary archetypes, one for each element. The publication will
be honest, direct and easily understandable, with lots of
illustrations for people who are not as well in thinking
abstractly as a physicist. The simple model of astrology will not
only be helpful for novices to learn astrology, as Ray Murphy
suggested to my initial post about it, but will very probably go
well beyond it. Due to its simplicity, an important part of it
will likely become universal knowledge, including being
understandable and hence provable for scientists.

I made the decision to publish in the way described above already
in summer 2002, just about a couple of months after my initial
newsgroup posts announcing the discoveries. But people are like
ants. If you have ever observed a street by ants to their food,
you will probably have noticed that individual ants are very far
from just following the road, they move left and right and often
even back and forth, probably because they do not "see" the road,
they only smell the chemicals that mark the street and are trying
to follow it as well as they can, just like human individuals are
trying to understand the forces acting on them by means like
looking at a horoscope, and even if they know where it is
supposed to be going, they (like especially me) are too stupid to
actually follow it in a straight line, but maybe even that is
necessary for things to unfold as they should.

At the end of the novel Solaris, Kelvin says that he hopes that
the "time of the cruel wonders" is not over yet. I hope they will
not be so cruel for most of us, and even though recent events
have taken quite a toll psychologically, it is maybe important to
keep proportions: Compared to WWII including the Holocaust and
Stalins' deportations and killing of many million people, we are
living in very happy times -- please help to ensure it stays so
in the future.

Thanks, and bye for the moment,

Alain Stalder

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

* If you have seen the recent movie "Solaris", rest assured it
has very little to do with the novel. Unfortunately, the english
translation of the novel is also not very true to the book, but
at least you get essentially the intended story. (The book is
also interesting especially for astrologers, because it is a very
detailed description of Pisces (the ocean that is more complex
than individual imagination by Virgo (the sun sign of the
author)).

** I heard of the basic meanings of numbers, including that "the
fourth is different" the first time during a seminar by Liz
Greene (about trines, I think), but the association with pi and
between numbers and elements is from me (although I cannot
exclude that other people have made the same associations
independently before me, if there is such a thing as independent
thoughts anyway)

II: I::

Subject: Trick for using Delphi on a PC
Date: Sat 12 Apr 2003 18:25:33 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.marketplace
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0304120825.756db93e@posting.google.com>

Here is a trick that allows to use Delphi, a free and easy to use
astrology program for Palm OS devices, on a windows PC. Essentially
the trick is to use a tool that Palm Inc. is offering for software
developers for testing their software on a PC. Until recently,
installing such a tool was quite technical, but now most people
should be able to do it, if they are willing to download a 5 MB
file and to do a few initial installation steps manually.

Here are the steps in detail:

1) Download the Palm OS 5 Simulator:
   http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/simulator/Palm_OS_52_Simulator_Rel.zip
   (4.9 megabytes, ca. 20-30 min with a 56k modem)

   (if that link stops working in the future, try
   http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools and click your way through)

2) Start "PalmSim.exe" and choose a ROM file (there are currently
   three variants: US english, japanese and a multi-language
   version called EFIGS for english/french/italian/german/spanish)

3) Install Delphi by dragging the three files "Delphi.prc",
   "astrolib.prc" and MathLib.prc" over the simulator

4) Click through the initial stuff on the simulator, then check
   that Delphi works

5) Click with the right mouse button anywhere in the simulator
   window and choose "Storage"->"Save..."

6) Click the "Save" button in the appearing dialogue to save
   the state of the simulator

7) Exit the simulator by closing its window

8) Start the simulator (PalmSim.exe) again and click with the
   right mouse button in the window and select
   "Storage"->"Load...", click the "Open" button

9) Now you can use Delphi again. Saved charts should still be
   there, as well as Delphi's preferences, like the city for
   the astrological clock (provided you saved the state of the
   simulator last time you changed something in Delphi)

That's it.

Delphi's web site:
http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Uranus/Neptune, the war in Iraq and the New World Order
Date: Sat 19 Apr 2003 09:30:09 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-864565.09265919042003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <b7lq9l01nnq@drn.newsguy.com>,
 ozymandias <ozymandias_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

> >>And then the ideas of manifest destiny,
> >>resulted in the expansion of the colonies and the foundation of a new world
> >>order, the United States of America.
> >
> >RM: I thought the 'New World Order' conspiracy was a fairly recent
> >project which was being promoted by members of the Fabian Society.
>
> Fabian Society what's that?  I'm not talking about a dance party. Anyway the
> term "New world order" was coined by Ex George Bush, the senior. He used it near
> the end of his term in office.  I think our incursion into Iraq, might have
> something to do with it. Its President George Bush Jr's fight to end terror in
> the world, by using the U.S to police these troubled spots on the world.

On the back of the US dollar bill*, there is a latin inscription**:
"novus ordo seclorum" (novus=new, ordo=order, saeculorum=to all eternity,
without end, lifetime, age). Different countries have different fates
and hence different tasks in the world. But even for large countries
it would very likely by Hybris to assume the monopoly on all aspects
of an entire age. Take care.

Alain Stalder


* http://www.enchantedlearning.com/math/money/bills/one
** The inscription on the Great Seal of the US dates back to its
   founding years and was apparently inspired by a poem by Virgil
   from the first century BC: http://www.afrd.org/novus.htm

Subject: Re: Dat File conversions - JigSaw - errors.
Date: Sat 17 May 2003 18:58:36 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-656F2C.17582617052003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <8_kxa.142$po1.9028@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>,
 "Martin Lewicki" <skygazer@nospam.com> wrote:

> Yet again, a reason to standardize time recording to the unambiguous
> UT for astrological data - as the astronomers and every other
> time-dependent institutions have been doing now for decades! It is
> time for astrologers to drag themselves out of the 19th century and
> make the conversion of the chart to UT before publication and include
> it with the given time. Then we can reduce time-zone *stuff-ups* by
> subsequent users, re-publishers and redistributors of the chart data.
> Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes sets the example!
>
> Martin Lewicki - at time zone 9h30m east

I can see the problem, but for many charts there is probably
no way around publishing both local time and offset to UTC,
because these pieces of information typically come from
different sources: The time of birth is ususally recorded
on a birth certificate or in hospital records in local time,
whereas time zones are recorded separately at country or
state or community level, if at all.

Of course nowadays in many places there are clear rules
for calculating the time zone, but not so far in the past
this was quite different (like in the 60's in the US when
various farmers opposed daylight savings time).

Alain Stalder @705*

--
* That's in Swatch internet time:
  http://www.swatch.com/fs_index.php?haupt=itime

Subject: Re: Dat File conversions - JigSaw - errors.
Date: Sun 18 May 2003 08:15:08 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-004709.08133018052003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <astalder-656F2C.17582617052003@news.bluewin.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

> In article <8_kxa.142$po1.9028@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>,
>  "Martin Lewicki" <skygazer@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Yet again, a reason to standardize time recording to the unambiguous
> > UT for astrological data - as the astronomers and every other
> > time-dependent institutions have been doing now for decades! It is
> > time for astrologers to drag themselves out of the 19th century and
> > make the conversion of the chart to UT before publication and include
> > it with the given time. Then we can reduce time-zone *stuff-ups* by
> > subsequent users, re-publishers and redistributors of the chart data.
> > Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes sets the example!
> >
> > Martin Lewicki - at time zone 9h30m east
>
> I can see the problem, but for many charts there is probably
> no way around publishing both local time and offset to UTC,
> because these pieces of information typically come from
> different sources: The time of birth is ususally recorded
> on a birth certificate or in hospital records in local time,
> whereas time zones are recorded separately at country or
> state or community level, if at all.
>
> Of course nowadays in many places there are clear rules
> for calculating the time zone, but not so far in the past
> this was quite different (like in the 60's in the US when
> various farmers opposed daylight savings time).
>
> Alain Stalder @705*
>
> --
> * That's in Swatch internet time:
>   http://www.swatch.com/fs_index.php?haupt=itime

Looks like the trickster got me for a change: I thought
you meant to publish UTC only, while you meant (and I
hope I am getting it right this time) to publish UTC
_and_ local time...

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Solar Eclipse Coming
Date: Sun 25 May 2003 09:40:08 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-A58A39.09234525052003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <BAF53648.5047%Libralove@austin.rr.com>,
 Libralove <Libralove@austin.rr.com> wrote:

> In the recent issue of "Urania" Kathleen Hanna says,
>
> "It is most unwise to ignore "lunar eclipses" (Full Moons), or to consider
> them of less power or importance than the showier "solar eclipses" (New
> Moons).

I have little direct experience with the psychological impacts
of eclipses, but after having experienced a total solar eclipse,
I am rather sceptical about the *second part* of the statement.
A partial solar eclipse is emotionally not much more exciting
than a lunar one: the sun becomes a crescent instead of a disk,
but its brightness does not drop much. But during the minute or
so of totality, brightness drops to the one during a bright
full moon's night, and nature reacts noticeably, it gets more
quiet and you can feel people and nature in general react
emotionally. It is not uncommon that people who have been at
one total solar eclipse travel to the see and especially feel
the next one, even if it is on the other end of the world.

As far as I know, solar eclipses are in principle not more
uncommon than lunar ones, but they are only visible within
a narrow band on earth, whereas lunar eclipses are practially
visible from an entire hemisphere. Hence, if you stay at one
place (like most people during the middle ages), solar eclipses
(and especially total ones) appear to be much more special and
rare events than lunar eclipses.

Alain Stalder

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Nodes, eclipses, matrix, and gemini/sagittarius
Date: Thu 29 May 2003 06:35:04 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-7F3E75.06304829052003@news.bluewin.ch>

I have never really been able to put the finger on what the nodes
mean in a chart. This may already say a lot about what they are
about. Anyway, in this post I would like to present how the nodes
look from several different perspectives. In other words, I will
try to hold the nodes in my hand and quickly turn them around and
look at them from different sides, before they can change too much.
This seems a fitting approach for the season (sun in Gemini and
Gemini solar eclipse approaching) and, as I hope to show, also for
the nodes themselves. On the other hand, this means also that I
will not be able to provide transparency about what the nodes mean,
only maybe some ground (the matrix) for later analysis.

Let me start with some things that astrologer Thomas Ring said in
a seminar in Copenhagen in 1974 [1]. He considers the northern
node, the point where the moon passes from below the ecliptic
to above it, the entrance into the unconscious, vegetative life.
He also says that the nodes are no force, but are receptive,
i.e. they are influenced by planets in aspect, but do not put
any force against them. (I would interpret that such that the
planets in aspect do not feel any counterreaction, except maybe
notice some loss of energy)

Some symbols that immediately spring to mind and are related to
the axis Gemini/Sagittarius: The symbols for the nodes look like
gates; the name Thomas appears to mean twin; Thomas was one of
the twelve appostels, the one that looked almost like Jesus;
the full name of the hero Neo (anagram for the "One") in the just
released blockbuster movie "The Matrix Reloaded" is Thomas Anderson;
the word "matrix" comes from "mother"; the movie shows quite a
few traits of the axis Gemini-Sagittarius, see for example the
following article that relates The Matrix to Gnosticism and
to Buddism [2].

Let me switch to a different angle. In a recent thread at
alt.astrology.tropical, I was sceptical about a cited statement
that lunar eclipses should not be considered of less importance
than solar ones. Superficially, this may sound similar to the
fairy tale of the sleeping beauty, where the king does not
respect the 13th fairy enough, i.e. he puts the 12 solar months
above the 13 lunar ones. But if one looks more closely at
eclipses, it is exactly in solar eclipses that the moon plays
the strongest role, it is a mercurian twist that their names
indicate something different:

In a lunar eclipse, the earth (the ground beyond us) shields some
light from the sun to arrive on the moon and then be reflected back
to earth to be seen by us. This may already say quite a bit about
lunar eclipses. Some associations: sun and moon are opponents with
the earth standing between them; there is an additional brief new
moon phase at full moon, an additional phase of conception or of
contemplation, of looking inward. Sure this is somewhat unusual,
but not that unusual as it happens every year and then is visible
from the entire nightern hemisphere.

Solar eclipses are different beasts. Contrary to the moon, the
sun normally does not have phases, it remains a shining disk all
year long. During a solar eclipse, the moon stands between sun
and earth and forces/gives the sun a female phase of coneption.
If the eclipse is total, during the few minutes of totality,
brighness drops to almost the one during a bright full moon's
night; i.e. sun and moon almost meet in brighness, day and night
meet at twilight.

Quick interlude of associations: in greek mythology, Hermes left
the cave where he was born twice on the day he was born, the first
time during the day to kill a tortoise just outside the cave and
to build a lyre out of the tortoise's shell; the second time he
travelled far during the night and stole 50 cattle from Apollon [3];
what does the sun conceive at the moment of totality ? - maybe
what is symbolized by the sign it is in or by the related planets;
maybe this makes this coming eclipse more Gemini, maybe more so
than generally (note that this will not be a total eclipse, only
an annular one, i.e. the moon will be too far from earth in
relation to the sun to totally cover it up, so that a ring will
be visible of the sun at the moment of most coverage.

Without conscious intention, this brings me back to Thomas *Ring*.
I think the nodes (and hence also eclipses which are bound to occur
around the nodes) are quite a bit about the axis between Gemini and
Sagittarius, about letting things come up from the unconscious and
letting it sink back, about quick and slow, interface and overview,
about defending and opening gates (the roman god Janus, for example,
is sometimes shown carrying a key in one hand and a stick in the
other, to open or defend gates). The movie "The Matrix Reloaded",
released just around this year's lunar eclipse, provides very
probably quite a few more insights into these themes, if you look at
it from a more philosophical standpoint (say, dialogues detached from
the pictures, the different quickness of motion switching between
fighting very quickly and almost freezing motion, agents that
duplicate themselves, etc).

Finally, let me note that the horoscope is part of the matrix of
a human life (or maybe one way of looking at that matrix). This
also corresponds to Hermes living in a cave, with his mother Maya.
She notes that he leaves the cave at times, but does not prohibit
it from happening, as Hermes is part of the Matrix, has the role
to make it evolve.

(Hermes is also associated with Virgo; there are more hermetian
aspects to the analysis that an astrologer/counselor makes than
usually recognized; a primary element is that the astrologer
typically tends to exclude her-/himself from the picture and looks
at the chart and the other person like he/she was an outsider and
unconnected observer, not really connected to the fate of the
individual asking the question that the architect in the reloaded
matrix considered the most irrelevant one, namely "Why am I here ?")

Alain Stalder

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

[1] The seminar is available at http://www.astro.com but only in
    german (as well as the full 4 tomes of his "Astrologische
    Menschenkunde", in german too)
    http://www.astro.com/h/ring_g.htm
    One more hint: Thomas Ring had the sun in Sagittarius and
    Pluto (in conjunctiuon with Neptune) in Gemini

[2] http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/new_phil_wakeup.html

[3] This is a story from the Homeric Hymns (which are probably not
    really from Homer, but that does no harm):
    http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Hesiod/hymns.html
    (look for the chapter "To Hermes", the story is quite short
    and readable, revealing also quite a bit about Sagittarius
    resp. Zeus, who appears in my opinion twice in the story,
    once as Zeus and the other time in disguise as an "old man
    tilling his flowering vineyard" who eventially drops word
    to Apollon about who had stolen his cattle...)

PS: The jupiter-neptune opposition tends to go unnoticed -- even though
    I wanted touch it here, almost forgot about to mention it again...

Subject: Re: Nodes, eclipses, matrix, and gemini/sagittarius
Date: Fri 30 May 2003 07:06:11 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-BC58C3.06060730052003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <jsrBa.16603$8g5.279388@news2.e.nsc.no>,
 "Vero" <veronisc@frisurf.no> wrote:

> I know for sure that the southern node is the crybaby and that if another
> person has its venus there, you shouldn't do much, it will be you suffering,
> not the venus person.
>
> *v*

Thanks a lot. It is always hard for me to tell where ideas come
from, to tell who or what contributed to it. Well, this morning
I had the following additional idea about nodes:

If nodes are gates through which energy from planets flows,
then maybe that is connected to why there are apparently
more earthquakes with people affected around eclipses than
at most other times*. After all, earthquakes are scientifically
nothing else than the release of tensions within earth.
Almost the same can be said about volcano eruptions.

Alain Stalder

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

* Just this week I read the comment of a scientist who said
that there are not more earthquakes around eclipses, that
this time they just happened in places where more people are
affected. That would fit quite well with what I said above.
I find it a pity and quite unscientific that most scientists
exclude some hypotheses a priori. Reminds me of a swiss joke
that I told another physicist on usenet last year:

Daellebach Kari is standing at night around a street lamp
and appears to look for something on the floor. Somebody
walks by and ask Kari "What have you lost, Kari?" - "My watch"
- "Where did you lose it?" - "Well, back there it that dark
alley." - "But then why are you looking for it here ?" -
"Because there is more light here."

It is a lot easier for scientists to stay in the light and
ignore most possibilities beyond it. It is also true that in
the dark alley, the chances to actually find something are
quite small, and you can get lost or hurt yourself a bit if
you are not careful. Chances are best in the twilight, at the
interface between light and dark, which returns me to the
theme proposed in the previous post, Gemini/Sagittarius.

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: A look at some interesting parans.
Date: Fri 30 May 2003 11:45:02 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-8E9C11.09080930052003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <bb60n4$67m$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
 "Pete P" <pdmarch13@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Given that I'm currently obsessed with the concept of stellar parans, as
> defined by Bernadette Brady in her book "Fixed Stars", I thought it
> might be a fun idea to regularly take a look at some of the more
> "interesting" stars, and how they have played their part in shaping the
> character and destiny of well-known individuals.
> When I say "interesting stars", I don't necessarily mean the more well
> known ones, either - like Spica, Regulus, Algol, Antares, etc., although
> there's no reason why they can't be included - no, I'm talking about
> those stars that add a certain interesting twist to a life, either
> literally or symbolically, even if that star might seem like a tiny,
> flickering candle alongside the real "giants", like Betelgeuse,
> Fomalhaut, or Aldebaran. The star may not be playing lead violin in the
> orchestra, but it's amazing what a difference that single cello can make
> to a symphony!

I just want to recommend an additional source for information
about fixed stars on the web, namely the web site by Anne Wright:

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew

She has lots of material about practically all fixed stars,
for example, for Alhena she adds (citing her sources) also
meanings like "hurt" or "the wound in the tendon of Achilles",
or what conjunctions of Alhena with planets could mean:

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Alhena.html

Alain Stalder

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: A look at some interesting parans.
Date: Mon 2 Jun 2003 09:50:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-F43E47.08300002062003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <bb7fmk$a1u$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>,
 "Pete P" <pdmarch13@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-8E9C11.09080930052003@news.bluewin.ch...
 [...]
> > I just want to recommend an additional source for information
> > about fixed stars on the web, namely the web site by Anne Wright:
> >
> > http://www.winshop.com.au/annew
> >
> > She has lots of material about practically all fixed stars,
> > for example, for Alhena she adds (citing her sources) also
> > meanings like "hurt" or "the wound in the tendon of Achilles",
> > or what conjunctions of Alhena with planets could mean:
> >
> > http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Alhena.html
> >
> > Alain Stalder
>
> Thanks, Alain...
> it's a really good resource site for the fixed stars. The only problem
> with it, as I see it, is that she gives the star's longitude as
> projected onto the ecliptic, which *isn't necessarily where the star is
> in the sky*, depending upon one's geographical latitude of birth, and is
> therefore not of much use in paran work.
> Having said that, her explanations of how the stars got their names, and
> the history of each, make fascinating reading!
>
> cheers,
> --
> Pete

Not being a professional astrologer (I am a physicist), I had
never heard of Bernadette Brady. I took a look on the web and
I can see the difference.

Thanks a lot and good luck everybody with this newsgroup,

Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: A look at some interesting parans.
Date: Tue 3 Jun 2003 10:10:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-41CCE7.08471703062003@news.bluewin.ch>

Thanks very much Sharyn for being the first person to ask me something
about my discoveries. I was really convinced this time that I would no
longer post (after about 100 newsgroup posts during the last year).
I feel a bit like in an oriental bazar, where to get a fair price, you
often have to walk out with the conviction not to buy. Please let me
answer your questions and comments in almost reversed order (I have a
retrograde mercury at the end of the 12th house and at the beginning
of Leo; I was born 1966-08-07 04:12 in Zurich, Switzerland, that's
03:12 UTC, i.e. early on a Sunday morning in August, or maybe more
precisely at the end of a Saturday night during the Summer of Love,
just weeks after the last Uranus-Pluto conjunction).

So I will give it a try here.

In article <r3SCa.1964$xM5.1809365@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
 "Sharyn" <sharyn721@adelphia.not> wrote:

> I sent this reply to the group and by email, since you sounded like maybe
> you might not be back to read more. I hope you don't mind, but I would love
> to hear more from you. Any time an actual scientist gets involved in
> astrology in any way (except for bashing it), talks about testing
> hypotheses, etc, I'm enthusiastic!

I know there are not many, at least not openly. The only other physicist
I know of, is Alois Treindl from Astrodienst (astro.com). But let me
first
get to the meat, to the discoveries:

[paragraph 3 of abstract]
>     The western astrological system is shown to be essentially composed of
> simple, opposing principles which originate from ancient greek philosophy.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the star sign,
> different inner planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
> different classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical elements,
> more specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from one
> element to another. The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be
> verified quantitatively.

The key discovery here is that there is a simple structure hidden
in all the mythology and tales about the 12 star signs of the
zodiac. I found a structure that explains already quite a bit of
the key features of the signs in terms of archetypes for the
*elements* (i.e. archetypes for elements, not signs as usual) and
the transitions between them. Thereby I closely adhere to the
philosophy of Aristotle, who described the elements and their
transitions in terms of very basic properties like hot/cold and
wet/dry.

Before I give a concrete example, let me just mention the
advantages that such a more simple model of astrology has despite
its necessary initial loss of richness of description:

a) From a purely practical point of view, the simpler a model is,
the simpler it is to prove its correctness (or incorrectness)
with the exact quantitative methods of science.
b) Most scientists are men and the complexity of astrological
predictions is usually not accessible to them. A simpler model
that they can compare to their experience, probably with some
help by their women, is necessary to convince scientists that
there is something worth to investigate.
c) Maybe most importantly, a basic understanding of astrology by
everybody on this planet could help to solve future conflicts
more peacefully, be it on a personal level or at the level of
companies or countries etc.
d) The model is beautiful in its simplicity; it provides the
ground for all the more complex myths and stories without
restricting them, only providing them some obvious and stable
underlying structure.

Let me take the Fire signs for example. In this case, the
essential archetypal image that I will use is simply the three
stages of a burning fire. My hypothesis is that Aries corresponds
to a fire that has just started to burn, Leo corresponds to a
fire that is fully burning and Sagittarius corresponds to a fire
that is about to end.

Imagine a fire. What does it do in terms of transforming the
elements ? It transforms wood (Earth) to smoke (Air). In other
words, the transition is Earth via Fire to Air.

Earth, the physical body, is wounded. This corresponds to the
wound that, say, Liz Greene, associates with both Leo and
Sagittarius (not much with Aries, since the fire has just started
to burn and most of the wood is still there). There is, for
example, Chiron's wound in the lower part of his body (the
earthier part because of the sexual organs), while his head (Air)
becomes free to imagine. Or there is the Grail's king with his
wound that is related to Leo. Aries impulsivity can be related to
the first parts of the wood that start to burn, that do not cause
much pain yet, but still gets him going.

A bit more philosophyically and abstractly, the imagination and
transformative power of Fire creates from within the human body
(Earth) ideas and knowledge (Air) that can be transmitted to
later generations and thus become immortal. Hence an additional
image that can be associated to Aries/Leo/Sagittarius is
animal/man(or king)/god.

As an immediate consequence, Aries is the most mortal of the Fire
signs. Due to his mortality, he has to protect the few things he
found out, he has to be less open than Leo or Sagittarius, he has
also to make sure that he has enough money and goods to survive
on his own. This makes him also quite egoistic, even more so than
Leo. But for Aries this is not much of a problem yet. But Leo, in
contrast, is between Earth and Air, has to balance his own
egoistic needs with the collective need for more knowledge and
visions (and the egoism is also more apparent because Leo is a
fixed sign, whereas Aries simply choses another goal whenever
he meets to much resistance in a particular direction).

There are more examples related to this image of burning fire,
let me just mention two of them:
a) Aries is associated with Amun, the invisible egyptian creator
god, the hidden one, the force behind the wind. Now, in order to
get a fire going, you have to blow, that is the force that Aries
constantly feels behind him. The invisibility is related to the
secrecy above and also to the fact that the wind (Air) is
invisible.
b) Zeus is the one who throws lightning down to earth, and in
nature this at least appears very random. Similarly, a fire, and
in my recollection (that may be biased), mostly a fire that is
about to end, emits some random sparks. This fits also with
Sagittarius' free improvisation, with his shooting of arrows into
seemingly random directions, leaving everybody the freedom to
catch an arrow or not, before it sinks back to the ground, to
unconsciousness.

Now let me relate that more directly to Aristotle's philosophy.
According to him [1], the basic properties are properties that
can be touched. In [1], he reduces these properties to the
following two pairs of oppositions:

dry/wet (indentified also with hard/soft, brittle/malleable)
hot/cold (or male/female)

Now, the elements are composed as follows:

Earth: dry+cold
Fire:  hot+dry
Air:   wet+hot
Water: cold+wet

These four elements form a circle: Make Earth hot and you get
Fire, make Fire wet and you get Air, make Air cold and you get
Water, and finally make Water dry and you get Earth again (in
other words, a direct transition Earth-Fire-Air-Water is
possible, but Earth-Air and Fire-Water can only be transformed
into each other by passing through an intermediate element).

I cannot go into all four elements here, let me just mention the
essential transitions and archetypes:

Fire:  Earth-Fire-Air -- a fire burns wood to smoke
Water: Earth-Water-Air -- ice (Earth) melts to water and evaporates (Air)
Air:   Fire-Air-Water -- cloud (Air) -> lightning (Fire) and rain (Water)
Earth: Fire-Earth-Water -- tree (Earth) needs sunlight (Fire) and water

I have to admit that in my document at http://www.exactphilosophy.net
the style is very condensed, much like in scientific publications. That
makes it difficult to follow all the thoughts behind the words. If there
is interest, I can describe the other three elements here and specify
or elaborate where asked for.

[1] Aristotle, On Generation and Corruption
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8gc/
(see mainly chapter 2 and 3 of book II)


[from paragraph 3 of abstract]
> [...] Meanings associated with the star sign,
> different inner planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
> different classes of people. [...]

This is the other half of the simple model that I propose. The
hypothesis is essentially that different inner planets correspond to
how people relate/behave/like to behave relative to other people:

- the moon how a mother is towards her children and also how a
  child is towards his/her mother
- accordingly, the sun how a father is towards his children and
  also how a child is towards his/her father
- Venus how anybody (men/women) are towards women of roughly their
  age (excluding syblings), and especially towards female lovers
- Mars how anybody (men/women) are towards men of roughly their
  age (excluding syblings), and especially towards male lovers
- Mercury how anybody (men/women) is toward syblings
- These meanings also extend to people in similar roles; the
  behaviour towards mother, for example, also extends to the
  behaviour towards an older female teacher

I am aware that part of the above hypothesis is according to
common beliefs and part of it is rather not (and, of course, I am
fully aware that there is a lot more to planets than mentioned
above). As a physicist, I am more interested in finding out if it
is so, than to promote my opinion. But let me still present the
advantages of a simple model like the one above:

By relating the influences of planets, you get a simple matrix
that is suitable for experimental tests of astrology. Take, say,
1000 families and ask them about how they perceive the other
members of their family or maybe just observe them. This gives
you a lot of specific data. If the average family has 6 members,
you get 15 relations and hence for 1000 families 15'000 pieces of
information that you can compare to the above model for the star
signs that makes quite simple and concrete predictions like that
Aries is more secretive than Sagittarius, etc.

There may be technical differences, maybe synastry or the time
when questions are asked blur things out sufficiently. But I
think that in order to convince sceptical scientists, the model
that is tested has to be simple, otherwise there are too many
loopholes for sceptics to questions things. Anyway, let me get to
the other part of my hypotheses, a suggested physical background
for astrology and other phenomena.


> I found this on your web site http://www.exactphilosophy.net/:
> "A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1 symmetry and can
> be felt across global distances and through the earth. The exact physical
> nature of the effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
> i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future
> theoretical explanation.
>     Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of phenomena
> like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also made plausible how
> astrology and other ancient mythological beliefs have persisted
> unconsciously until today and continue to influence our fates by means of
> collective emotional feedback.

Let me first try to present the idea very quickly and then
elaborate a bit:

The main hypothesis is that feelings reach further than commonly
assumed.

Say, you are having an argument with your partner. Then you can
usually feel the tension in the appartment or house. That tension
remains, in my view, also when the partner is in a different
room, even if nothing can be heard (although one has to be very
careful here with drawing conclusions, unconsciously quite weak
sounds may still be registered). But leaving the house, going for
a walk and maybe better for a drive often eases the tension.

Now, if feelings reach far, people are generally connected to
each other, even if they don't see or consciously know each
other. That creates sort of a large brain, which, according to my
hypotheses, could have its own mind, its own intentions. Now,
these intentions would be built by the brain (let me call it the
collective unconscious), but also, in turn, influence every
person that is part of it.

In my view, that is the immediate reason why astrology works even
for people who do not believe it. They are emotionally still part
of the collective unconscious, of its knowledge of the world that
has evolved during thousands of years and that is, for example,
expressed in terms of astrology.

This hypothesis has an important advantage towards sceptical
scientists. In the immediate view (but very likely not in in the
ultimate one), it reduces astrology to a cultural phenomenon that
is detached from the actual stars. The usual prominent argument
against astrology, namely that due to the precession of the
earth's axis, somebody born at the beginning of spring is
astrologically Aries, but has the sun astronomically in Pisces,
becomes now rather an argument for than against astrology: It
shows that astrology has a strong cultural component. (Just to
repeat it: I rather think that this is not the last word, that
astrology is in the end more than just culture, but also contains
many elements of more fundamental or physical nature, that the
collective unconscious has discovered during many thousand or
possibly even millions of years).

The important drawback of my hypothesis, however, is that to
scientists the idea of feelings reaching far seems at first sight
completely ridiculus. I do have my own ideas about how this may
come about, which I present in my document as hypotheses, but
they are not yet at the level of a formal scientific theory,
although I make a quite concrete thought experiment and propose
some experiments that may help to get there.

But the main idea how it could work is not too difficult to
understand and, interstingly, is connected to my experience of
the August 1999 solar eclipse which I witnessed somewhere in the
south of Germany:

During a solar eclipse, the moon is between sun and earth.
Naively, one would expect that whatever causes the gravitiational
pull between these three objects would bind strongly to matter,
so that the moon would shield the gravitational force between sun
and earth, just like it shields the light. But experimentally
that is not at all the case. In Newtownian mechanics, you simply
sum over all mass points to get the total force, there is no
shielding.

Similarly, you may have heard that inside a metal box (a Farady
Cage), there is no electrical field, no electrical force. But
this is again an indirect effect: charges on the box just move
apart so that the total force inside the box is zero. Now,
experimentally no force or all forces summing up to zero is
not distinguishable.

But in quantum mechanics, some effects are known where even in
places without force field, an effect can be observed (the most
prominent example is the Aharonov-Bohm effect, for whom this
tells something).

I think I should stop now. Let me just say, that I think that
physical explanations for long range emotional connections can in
my opinion not be excluded and that they may even be of quite a
fundamental and universal nature.


> Wow. Forgive my asking, but how does a physicist wander onto an astrology
> group? ;D I mean, most folks in your line of work are dismissive, if not
> downright antagonistic towards astrology.

That is a personal story, related to an unfulfilled love with the
woman I loved then, who lives in another city. I wrote something
about it in appendix A of the main discoveries document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
and somewhat more in the intial and most important review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/review.pdf

I prefer not to say much more, also because I never heard her
side of the story. These long range feelings I thought to
experience, may have been at least partially my own imagination
or maybe not ending where I thought they were ending, but, on the
other hand, long range emotional connections seem in general much
more consistent as an explanation for the world than not, but
maybe that is just the Neptune-Jupiter opposition speaking. I
will leave it to experiment whether my hypotheses correspond to
reality or not; anything else would not be scientific and hence
not what I want.

Astrologically, my biggest influences have been Star Signs for Lovers
and The Astrology of Fate, both by Liz Greene. (I first read the
first one around the middle of the eighties, but was quite sceptical
then; my real entry into astrology was in spring 1998, a lot has
happened since then).


> What was the reaction of your colleagues? Was the work ever reviewed? Has
> there been any interest from astrologers and from other scientists in the
> various fields, or any testing done?

I have not really reached many scientists yet. Superficially it is
quickly
rejected without much thought. Moreover, many physicists are not aware of
what they know. They can use the tools, but many of them have little
awareness of its fundaments. I wrote some stuff to sci.physics and also
to a few other newsgroups. (You can find it on my web site under reviews
or directly by going to groups.google.com and searching for, say,
"exactphilosophy"). I have posted also to sci.physics.research, but only
about questions of quantum mechanics that surround my hypotheses; while
it would have been clearly impossible to discuss my document directly
there, the right people to grasp the physics would certainly be there.
Publication in a journal about physics would have been even more
difficult, there I can see no chance at all at the moment. But really
new stuff does not evolve in the old paths, so publishing directly on
the internet seems still like a good idea in the long run.


> Oh, my goodness, I just began reading your doc in the link there and I guess
> maybe I've answered my question above. I'm not even going to pretend to
> understand what you've done yet, until I read the whole thing, but your
> initial statements are very interesting.
 [...]
> --
> ~Sharyn
> http://users.adelphia.net/~sharyn721/aat/

I hope that at least part of what I wrote here has been generally
understandable. And thanks again for asking questions.

Alain Stalder

--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

PS: In greek mythology, Orpheus wants to get his wife back and
descends into the underworld, taming all the beasts there with
his beautiful music. Even Hades allows Orpheus to take his
wife back up into the light, but imposes a condition: She will
walk behind Orpheus and he is not allowed to look back until she
is out in the light. Orpheus walks out without looking back, but
as soon as he is out, he turns around, forgetting that she is
a few steps behind him and hence still just in the dark, so he
lost her forever. This seems to fit quite well with the current
situation after the recent Saturn-Pluto oppositions. I hope I
correctly interpreted this as the unconscious, female side of
the world having essentially stepped out of the dark and
interested in some of the fruits born of the previous, hard
times. And, with my moon in Aries at the MC, I also hope that
I will not regret having published my birthtime here.

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: Wega
Date: Wed 4 Jun 2003 07:43:54 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>

There it is:
Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
I'm free.
Alain Stalder
|:| :|:
Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
Kant

Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: Wega
Date: Wed 4 Jun 2003 07:52:03 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder25@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder25-FE7814.07520304062003@news.dplanet.ch>

In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
>
> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

I:I :I:  wei-chi  (fire/water, 64)

BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
Gets his tail in the water,
There is nothing that would further.

The image of the condition before transition.
Thus the superior man is careful
In the differentiation of things,
So that each finds its place.

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: Wega
Date: Wed 4 Jun 2003 08:33:12 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder25@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder25-242922.08331204062003@news.dplanet.ch>

In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
>
> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen

Beweis dessen, dass auch unzulaengliche, ja kindische Mittel zur
Rettung dienen koennen:

Um sich vor den Sirenen zu bewahren, stopfte sich Odysseus Wachs in
die Ohren und liess sich am Mast festschmieden. Aehnliches haetten
natuerlich seit jeher alle Reisenden tun koennen ausser denen, welche
die Sirenen schon aus der Ferne verlockten, aber es war in der ganzen
Welt bekannt, dass dies unmoeglich helfen konnte. Der Sang der Sirenen
durchdrang alles, und die Leidenschaft der Verfuehrten haette mehr als
Ketten und Mast gesprengt. Daran aber dachte Odysseus nicht, obwohl er
davon vielleicht gehoert hatte. Er vertraute vollstaendig der Handvoll
Wachs und dem Gebinde Ketten und in unschuldiger Freude ueber seine
Mittelchen fuhr er den Sirenen entgegen.

Nun haben aber die Sirenen eine noch schrecklichere Waffe als den
Gesang, naemlich ihr Schweigen. Es ist zwar nicht geschehen, aber
vielleicht denkbar, dass sich jemand vor ihrem Gesang gerettet haette,
vor ihrem Schweigen gewiss nicht. Dem Gefuehl aus eigener Kraft sie
besiegt zu haben, der daraus folgenden alles fortreissenden Ueberhebung
kann nichts Irdisches widerstehen.

Und tatsaechlich sangen, als Odysseus kam, die gewaltigen Saengerinnen
nicht, sei es, dass sie glaubten, diesem Gegner koenne nur noch das
Schweigen beikommen, sei es, dass der Anblick der Glueckseligkeit im
Gesicht des Odysseus, der an nichts anderes als an Wachs und Ketten
dachte, sie allen Gesang vergessen liess.

Odysseus aber, um es so auszudruecken, hoerte ihr Schweigen nicht, er
glaubte, sie saengen, und nur er sei behuetet, es zu hoeren. Fluechtig
sah er zuerst die Wendungen ihrer Haelse, das tiefe Atmen, die
traenenvollen Augen, den halb geoeffneten Mund, glaubte aber, dies
gehoere zu den Arien, die ungehoert um ihn verklangen. Bald aber glitt
alles an seinen in die Ferne gerichteten Blicken ab, die Sirenen
verschwanden foermlich vor seiner Entschlossenheit, und gerade als er
ihnen am naechsten war, wusste er nichts mehr von ihnen.

Sie aber-schoener als jemals-streckten und drehten sich, liessen das
schaurige Haar offen im Winde wehen und spannten die Krallen frei auf
den Felsen. Sie wollten nicht mehr verfuehren, nur noch den Abglanz
vom grossen Augenpaar des Odysseus wollten sie so lange als moeglich
erhaschen.

Haetten die Sirenen Bewusstsein, sie waeren damals vernichtet worden.
So aber blieben sie, nur Odysseus ist ihnen entgangen.

Es wird uebrigens noch ein Anhang hierzu ueberliefert. Odysseus, sagt
man, war so listenreich, war ein solcher Fuchs, dass selbst die
Schicksalsgoettin nicht in sein Innerstes dringen konnte. Vielleicht
hat er, obwohl das mit Menschenverstand nicht mehr zu begreifen ist,
wirklich gemerkt, dass die Sirenen schwiegen, und hat ihnen und den
Goettern den obigen Scheinvorgang nur gewissermassen als Schild
entgegengehalten.

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: Wega
Date: Wed 4 Jun 2003 08:34:22 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder25@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder25-53D8E7.08342204062003@news.dplanet.ch>

In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
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> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

     Prolegomena
         zu
     einer jeden
 kuenftigen Metaphysik
         die
   als Wissenschaft
wird auftreten koennen,
       von
   Immanuel Kant

Riga, bey Johann Friedrich Hartknoch. 1783.

Vorrede

Diese Prolegomena sind nicht zum Gebrauch vor Lehrlinge, sondern vor
kuenftige Lehrer, und sollen auch diesen nicht etwa dienen, um den
Vortrag einer schon vorhandnen Wissenschaft anzuordnen, sondern um diese
Wissenschaft selbst allererst zu erfinden.

Es gibt Gelehrte, denen die Geschichte der Philosophie (der alten sowohl
als neuen) selbst ihre Philosophie ist, vor diese sind gegenwaertige
Prolegomena nicht geschrieben. Sie muessen warten, bis diejenigen, die
aus den Quellen der Vernunft selbst zu schoepfen bemuehet sind, ihre
Sache werden ausgemacht haben, und alsdenn wird an ihnen die Reihe sein,
von dem Geschehenen der Welt Nachricht zu geben. Widrigenfalls kann
nichts gesagt werden, was ihrer Meinung nach nicht schon sonst gesagt
worden ist, und in der Tat mag dieses auch als eine untruegliche
Vorhersagung vor alles Kuenftige gelten; denn, da der menschliche
Verstand ueber unzaehlige Gegenstaende viele Jahrhunderte hindurch auf
mancherlei Weise geschwaermt hat, so kann es nicht leicht fehlen, dass
nicht zu jedem Neuen etwas Altes gefunden werden sollte, was damit
einige Aehnlichkeit haette.

Meine Absicht ist, alle diejenigen, so es wert finden, sich mit
Metaphysik zu beschaeftigen, zu ueberzeugen: dass es unumgaenglich
notwendig sei, ihre Arbeit vor der Hand auszusetzen, alles bisher
Geschehene als ungeschehen anzusehen, und vor allen Dingen zuerst die
Frage aufzuwerfen: "ob auch so etwas, als Metaphysik, ueberall nur
moeglich sei."

Ist sie Wissenschaft, wie kommt es, dass sie sich nicht, wie andre
Wissenschaften, in allgemeinen und daurenden Beifall setzen kann? Ist
sie keine, wie geht es zu, dass sie doch unter dem Scheine einer
Wissenschaft unaufhoerlich gross tut, und den menschlichen Verstand mit
niemals erloeschenden, aber nie erfuellten Hoffnungen hinhaelt? Man mag
also entweder sein Wissen oder Nichtwissen demonstrieren, so muss doch
einmal ueber die Natur dieser angemassten Wissenschaft etwas Sicheres
ausgemacht werden; denn auf demselben Fusse kann es mit ihr unmoeglich
laenger bleiben. Es scheint beinahe belachenswert, indessen dass jede
andre Wissenschaft unaufhoerlich fortrueckt, sich in dieser, die doch
die Weisheit selbst sein will, deren Orakel jeder Mensch befraegt,
bestaendig auf derselben Stelle herumzudrehen, ohne einen Schritt
weiterzukommen. Auch haben sich ihre Anhaenger gar sehr verloren, und
man siehet nicht, dass diejenigen, die sich stark genug fuehlen, in
andern Wissenschaften zu glaenzen, ihren Ruhm in dieser wagen wollen, wo
jedermann, der sonst in allen uebrigen Dingen unwissend ist, sich ein
entscheidendes Urteil anmasst, weil in diesem Lande in der Tat noch kein
sicheres Mass und Gewicht vorhanden ist, um Gruendlichkeit von seichtem
Geschwaetze zu unterscheiden.

Es ist aber eben nicht so was Unerhoertes, dass nach langer Bearbeitung
einer Wissenschaft, wenn man Wunder denkt, wie weit man schon darin
gekommen sei, endlich sich jemand die Frage einfallen laesst: ob und wie
ueberhaupt eine solche Wissenschaft moeglich sei. Denn die menschliche
Vernunft ist so baulustig, dass sie mehrmalen schon den Turm
aufgefuehrt, hernach aber wieder abgetragen hat, um zu sehen, wie das
Fundament desselben wohl beschaffen sein moechte. Es ist niemals zu
spaet, vernuenftig und weise zu werden; es ist aber jederzeit schwerer,
wenn die Einsicht spaet kommt, sie in Gang zu bringen.

Zu fragen: ob eine Wissenschaft auch wohl moeglich sei, setzt voraus,
dass man an der Wirklichkeit derselben zweifle. Ein solcher Zweifel aber
beleidigt jedermann, dessen ganze Habseligkeit vielleicht in diesem
vermeinten Kleinode bestehen moechte; und daher mag sich der, so sich
diesen Zweifel entfallen laesst, nur immer auf Widerstand von allen
Seiten gefasst machen. Einige werden in stolzem Bewusstsein ihres alten,
und ebendaher vor rechtmaessig gehaltenen Besitzes, mit ihren
metaphysischen Kompendien in der Hand, auf ihn mit Verachtung
herabsehen: andere, die nirgends etwas sehen, als was mit dem einerlei
ist, was sie schon sonst irgendwo gesehen haben, werden ihn nicht
verstehen, und alles wird einige Zeit hindurch so bleiben, als ob gar
nichts vorgefallen waere, was eine nahe Veraenderung besorgen oder
hoffen liesse.

Gleichwohl getraue ich mir vorauszusagen, dass der selbstdenkende Leser
dieser Prolegomenen nicht bloss an seiner bisherigen Wissenschaft
zweifeln, sondern in der Folge gaenzlich ueberzeugt sein werde, dass es
dergleichen gar nicht geben koenne, ohne dass die hier geaeusserte
Forderungen geleistet werden, auf welchen ihre Moeglichkeit beruht, und,
da dieses noch niemals geschehen, dass es ueberall noch keine Metaphysik
gebe. Da sich indessen die Nachfrage nach ihr doch auch niemals
verlieren kann1 weil das Interesse der allgemeinen Menschenvernunft mit
ihr gar zu innigst verflochten ist, so wird er gestehen, dass eine
voellige Reform, oder vielmehr eine neue Geburt derselben, nach einem
bisher ganz unbekannten Plane, unausbleiblich bevorstehe, man mag sich
nun eine Zeitlang dagegen straeuben, wie man wolle.

Seit LOCKES und LEIBNIZENS Versuchen, oder vielmehr seit dem Entstehen
der Metaphysik, soweit die Geschichte derselben reicht, hat sich keine
Begebenheit zugetragen, die in Ansehung des Schicksals dieser
Wissenschaft haette entscheidender werden koennen, als der Angriff, den
DAVID HUME auf dieselbe machte. Er brachte kein Licht in diese Art von
Erkenntnis, aber er schlug doch einen Funken, bei welchem man wohl ein
Licht haette anzuenden koennen, wenn er einen empfaenglichen Zunder
getroffen haette, dessen Glimmen sorgfaeltig waere unterhalten und
vergroessert worden.

HUME ging hauptsaechlich von einem einzigen, aber wichtigen Begriffe der
Metaphysik, naemlich dem der Verknuepfung der Ursache und Wirkung,
(mithin auch dessen Folgebegriffe der Kraft und Handlung etc.) aus, und
forderte die Vernunft, die da vorgibt, ihn in ihrem Schosse erzeugt zu
haben, auf, ihm Rede und Antwort zu geben, mit welchem Rechte sie sich
denkt: dass etwas so beschaffen sein koenne, dass, wenn es gesetzt ist,
dadurch auch etwas anderes notwendig gesetzt werden muesse; denn das
sagt der Begriff der Ursache. Er bewies unwidersprechlich: dass es der
Vernunft gaenzlich unmoeglich sei, a priori, und aus Begriffen eine
solche Verbindung zu denken, denn diese enthaelt Notwendigkeit; es ist
aber gar nicht abzusehen, wie darum, weil etwas ist, etwas anderes
notwendiger Weise auch sein muesse, und wie sich also der Begriff von
einer solchen Verknuepfung a priori einfuehren lasse. Hieraus schloss
er, dass die Vernunft sich mit diesem Begriffe ganz und gar betriege,
dass sie ihn faelschlich vor ihr eigen Kind halte, da er doch nichts
anders als ein Bastard der Einbildungskraft sei, die, durch Erfahrung
beschwaengert, gewisse Vorstellungen unter das Gesetz der Assoziation
gebracht hat, und eine daraus entspringende subjektive Notwendigkeit d.
i. Gewohnheit, vor eine objektive aus Einsicht unterschiebt. Hieraus
schloss er: die Vernunft habe gar kein Vermoegen, solche Verknuepfungen,
auch selbst nur im allgemeinen, zu denken, weil ihre Begriffe alsdenn
blosse Erdichtungen sein wuerden, und alle ihre vorgeblich a priori
bestehende Erkenntnisse waeren nichts als falsch gestempelte gemeine
Erfahrungen, welches ebensoviel sagt, als, es gebe ueberall keine
Metaphysik und koenne auch keine geben.2

So uebereilt und unrichtig auch seine Folgerung war, so war sie doch
wenigstens auf Untersuchung gegruendet, und diese Untersuchung war es
wohl wert, dass sich die guten Koepfe seiner Zeit vereinigt haetten, die
Aufgabe in dem Sinne, wie er sie vortrug, womoeglich gluecklicher
aufzuloesen, woraus denn bald eine gaenzliche Reform der Wissenschaft
haette entspringen muessen.

Allein das der Metaphysik von jeher unguenstige Schicksal wollte, dass
er von keinem verstanden wuerde. Man kann es, ohne eine gewisse Pein zu
empfinden, nicht ansehen, wie so ganz und gar seine Gegner REID, OSWALD,
BEATTlE, und zuletzt noch PRIESTLEY, den Punkt seiner Aufgabe
verfehlten, und indem sie immer das als zugestanden annahmen, was er
eben bezweifelte, dagegen aber mit Heftigkeit und mehrenteils mit
grosser Unbescheidenheit dasjenige bewiesen, was ihm niemals zu
bezweifeln in den Sinn gekommen war, seinen Wink zur Verbesserung so
verkannten, dass alles in dem alten Zustande blieb, als ob nichts
geschehen waere. Es war nicht die Frage, ob der Begriff der Ursache
richtig, brauchbar, und in Ansehung der ganzen Naturerkenntnis
unentbehrlich sei, denn dieses hatte HUME niemals in Zweifel gezogen;
sondern ob er durch die Vernunft a priori gedacht werde, und auf solche
Weise eine von aller Erfahrung unabhaengige innre Wahrheit und daher
auch wohl weiter ausgedehnte Brauchbarkeit habe, die nicht bloss auf
Gegenstaende der Erfahrung eingeschraenkt sei: hierueber erwartete HUME
Eroeffnung. Es war ja nur die Rede von dem Ursprunge dieses Begriffs,
nicht von der Unentbehrlichkeit desselben im Gebrauche: waere jenes nur
ausgemittelt, so wuerde es sich wegen der Bedingungen seines Gebrauches,
und des Umfangs, in welchem er gueltig sein kann, schon von selbst
gegeben haben.

Die Gegner des beruehmten Mannes haetten aber, um der Aufgabe ein Gnuege
zu tun, sehr tief in die Natur der Vernunft, sofern sie bloss mit reinem
Denken beschaeftigt ist, hineindringen muessen, welches ihnen ungelegen
war. Sie erfanden daher ein bequemeres Mittel, ohne alle Einsicht
trotzig zu tun, naemlich die Berufung auf den gemeinen Menschenverstand.
In der Tat ists eine grosse Gabe des Himmels, einen geraden (oder, wie
man es neuerlich benannt hat, schlichten) Menschenverstand zu besitzen.
Aber man muss ihn durch Taten beweisen, durch das Ueberlegte und
Vernuenftige, was man denkt und sagt, nicht aber dadurch, dass, wenn man
nichts Kluges zu seiner Rechtfertigung vorzubringen weiss, man sich auf
ihn als ein Orakel beruft. Wenn Einsicht und Wissenschaft auf die Neige
gehen, alsdenn und nicht eher, sich auf den gemeinen Menschenverstand zu
berufen, das ist eine von den subtilen Erfindungen neuerer Zeiten, dabei
es der schalste Schwaetzer mit dem gruendlichsten Kopfe getrost
aufnehmen, und es mit ihm aushalten kann. Solange aber noch ein kleiner
Rest von Einsicht da ist, wird man sich wohl hueten, diese Nothilfe zu
ergreifen. Und, beim Lichte besehen, ist diese Appellation nichts
anders, als eine Berufung auf das Urteil der Menge; ein Zuklatschen,
ueber das der Philosoph erroetet, der populaere Witzling aber
triumphiert und trotzig tut. Ich sollte aber doch denken, HUME habe auf
einen gesunden Verstand ebenso wohl Anspruch machen koennen, als
BEATTlE, und noch ueberdem auf das, was dieser gewiss nicht besass,
naemlich eine kritische Vernunft, die den gemeinen Verstand in Schranken
haelt, damit er sich nicht in Spekulationen versteige, oder, wenn bloss
von diesen die Rede ist, nichts zu entscheiden begehre, weil er sich
ueber seine Grundsaetze nicht zu rechtfertigen versteht; denn nur so
allein wird er ein gesunder Verstand bleiben. Meissel und Schlaegel
koennen ganz wohl dazu dienen, ein Stueck Zimmerholz zu bearbeiten, aber
zum Kupferstechen muss man die Radiernadel brauchen. So sind gesunder
Verstand sowohl als spekulativer, beide, aber jeder in seiner Art,
brauchbar: jener, wenn es auf Urteile ankommt, die in der Erfahrung ihre
unmittelbare Anwendung finden, dieser aber, wo im allgemeinen, aus
blossen Begriffen geurteilt werden soll, z. B. in der Metaphysik, wo der
sich selbst, aber oft per antiphrasin, so nennende gesunde Verstand ganz
und gar kein Urteil hat.

Ich gestehe frei: die Erinnerung des DAVID HUME war eben dasjenige, was
mir vor vielen Jahren zuerst den dogmatischen Schlummer unterbrach, und
meinen Untersuchungen im Felde der spekulativen Philosophie eine ganz
andre Richtung gab. Ich war weit entfernt, ihm in Ansehung seiner
Folgerungen Gehoer zu geben, die bloss daher ruehrten, weil er sich
seine Aufgabe nicht im Ganzen vorstellte, sondern nur auf einen Teil
derselben fiel, der, ohne das Ganze in Betracht zu ziehen, keine
Auskunft geben kann. Wenn man von einem gegruendeten, obzwar nicht
ausgefuehrten Gedanken anfaengt, den uns ein anderer hinterlassen, so
kann man wohl hoffen, es bei fortgesetztem Nachdenken weiter zu bringen,
als der scharfsinnige Mann kam, dem man den ersten Funken dieses Lichts
zu verdanken hatte.

Ich versuchte also zuerst, ob sich nicht HUMES Einwurf allgemein
vorstellen liesse, und fand bald: dass der Begriff der Verknuepfung von
Ursache und Wirkung bei weitem nicht der einzige sei, durch den der
Verstand a priori sich Verknuepfungen der Dinge denkt, vielmehr, dass
Metaphysik ganz und gar daraus bestehe. Ich suchte mich ihrer Zahl zu
versichern, und, da dieses mir nach Wunsch, naemlich aus einem einzigen
Prinzip, gelungen war, so ging ich an die Deduktion dieser Begriffe, von
denen ich nunmehr versichert war, dass sie nicht, wie HUME besorgt
hatte, von der Erfahrung abgeleitet, sondern aus dem reinen Verstande
entsprungen seien. Diese Deduktion, die meinem scharfsinnigen Vorgaenger
unmoeglich schien, die niemand ausser ihm sich auch nur hatte einfallen
lassen, obgleich jedermann sich der Begriffe getrost bediente, ohne zu
fragen, worauf sich denn ihre objektive Gueltigkeit gruende, diese, sage
ich, war das schwerste, das jemals zum Behuf der Metaphysik unternommen
werden konnte, und was noch das Schlimmste dabei ist, so konnte mir
Metaphysik, soviel davon nur irgendwo vorhanden ist, hiebei auch nicht
die mindeste Huelfe leisten, weil jene Deduktion zuerst die Moeglichkeit
einer Metaphysik ausmachen soll. Da es mir nun mit der Aufloesung des
Humischen Problems nicht bloss in einem besondern Falle, sondern in
Absicht auf das ganze Vermoegen der reinen Vernunft gelungen war: so
konnte ich sichere, obgleich immer nur langsame Schritte tun, um endlich
den ganzen Umfang der reinen Vernunft, in seinen Grenzen sowohl als
seinem Inhalt, vollstaendig und nach allgemeinen Prinzipien zu
bestimmen, welches denn dasjenige war, was Metaphysik bedarf, um ihr
System nach einem sicheren Plan aufzufuehren.

Ich besorge aber, dass es der Ausfuehrung des Humischen Problems in
seiner moeglich groessten Erweiterung (naemlich der Kritik der reinen
Vernunft) ebenso gehen duerfte, als es dem Problem selbst erging, da es
zuerst vorgestellt wurde. Man wird sie unrichtig beurteilen, weil man
sie nicht versteht; man wird sie nicht verstehen, weil man das Buch zwar
durchzublaettern, aber nicht durchzudenken Lust hat; und man wird diese
Bemuehung darauf nicht verwenden wollen, weil das Werk trocken, weil es
dunkel, weil es allen gewohnten Begriffen widerstreitend und ueberdem
weitlaeuftig ist. Nun gestehe ich, dass es mir unerwartet sei, von einem
Philosophen Klagen wegen Mangel an Popularitaet, Unterhaltung und
Gemaechlichkeit zu hoeren, wenn es um die Existenz einer gepriesenen und
der Menschheit unentbehrlichen Erkenntnis selbst zu tun ist, die nicht
anders, als nach den strengsten Regeln einer schulgerechten
Puenktlichkeit ausgemacht werden kann, auf welche zwar mit der Zeit auch
Popularitaet folgen, aber niemals den Anfang machen darf. Allein, was
eine gewisse Dunkelheit betrifft, die zum Teil von der Weitlaeuftigkeit
des Plans herruehret, bei welcher man die Hauptpunkte, auf die es bei
der Untersuchung ankommt, nicht wohl uebersehen kann: so ist die
Beschwerde deshalb gerecht, und dieser werde ich durch gegenwaertige
Prolegomena abhelfen.

Jenes Werk, welches das reine Vernunftvermoegen in seinem ganzen Umfange
und Grenzen darstellt, bleibt dabei immer die Grundlage, worauf sich die
Prolegomena nur als Voruebungen beziehen; denn jene Kritik muss als
Wissenschaft systematisch, und bis zu ihren kleinsten Teilen
vollstaendig dastehen, ehe noch daran zu denken ist, Metaphysik
auftreten zu lassen, oder sich auch nur eine entfernte Hoffnung zu
derselben zu machen.

Man ist es schon lange gewohnt, alte abgenutzte Erkenntnisse dadurch neu
aufgestutzt zu sehen, dass man sie aus ihren vormaligen Verbindungen
herausnimmt, ihnen ein systematisches Kleid nach eigenem beliebigen
Schnitte, aber unter neuen Titeln, anpasst; und nichts anders wird der
groesste Teil der Leser auch von jener Kritik zum voraus erwarten.
Allein diese Prolegomena werden ihn dahin bringen, einzusehen, dass es
eine ganz neue Wissenschaft sei, von welcher niemand auch nur den
Gedanken vorher gefasst hatte, wovon selbst die blosse Idee unbekannt
war, und wozu von allem bisher Gegebenen nichts genutzt werden konnte,
als allein der Wink, den HUMES Zweifel geben konnten, der gleichfalls
nichts von einer dergleichen moeglichen foermlichen Wissenschaft ahnte,
sondern sein Schiff, um es in Sicherheit zu bringen, auf den Strand (den
Skeptizism) setzte, da es denn liegen und verfaulen mag, statt dessen es
bei mir darauf ankommt, ihm einen Piloten zu geben, der nach sicheren
Prinzipien der Steuermannskunst, die aus der Kenntnis des Globus gezogen
sind, mit einer vollstaendigen Seekarte und einem Kompass versehen, das
Schiff sicher fuehren koenne, wohin es ihm gut duenkt.

Zu einer neuen Wissenschaft, die gaenzlich isoliert und die einzige
ihrer Art ist, mit dem Vorurteil gehen, als koenne man sie vermittelst
seiner schon sonst erworbenen vermeinten Kenntnisse beurteilen, obgleich
die es eben sind, an deren Realitaet zuvor gaenzlich gezweifelt werden
muss, bringt nichts anders zuwege, als dass man allenthalben das zu
sehen glaubt, was einem schon sonst bekannt war, weil etwa die
Ausdruecke jenem aehnlich lauten, nur, dass einem alles aeusserst
verunstaltet, widersinnisch und kauderwelsch vorkommen muss, weil man
nicht die Gedanken des Verfassers, sondern immer nur seine eigene, durch
lange Gewohnheit zur Natur gewordene Denkungsart dabei zum Grunde legt.
Aber die Weitlaeuftigkeit des Werks, sofern sie in der Wissenschaft
selbst und nicht dem Vortrage gegruendet ist, die dabei unvermeidliche
Trockenheit und scholastische Puenktlichkeit sind Eigenschaften, die
zwar der Sache selbst ueberaus vorteilhaft sein moegen, dem Buche selbst
aber allerdings nachteilig werden muessen.

Es ist zwar nicht jedermann gegeben, so subtil und doch zugleich so
anlockend zu schreiben, als DAVID HUME, oder so gruendlich und dabei so
elegant, als MOSES MENDELSSOHN; allein Popularitaet haette ich meinem
Vortrage (wie ich mir schmeichele) wohl geben koennen, wenn es mir nur
darum zu tun gewesen waere, einen Plan zu entwerfen, und dessen
Vollziehung andern anzupreisen, und mir nicht das Wohl der Wissenschaft,
die mich so lange beschaeftigt hielt, am Herzen gelegen haette; denn
uebrigens gehoerte viel Beharrlichkeit und auch selbst nicht wenig
Selbstverlaeugnung dazu, die Anlockung einer frueheren guenstigen
Aufnahme der Aussicht auf einen zwar spaeten, aber dauerhaften Beifall
nachzusetzen.

Plane machen ist mehrmalen eine ueppige, prahlerische
Geistesbeschaeftigung, dadurch man sich ein Ansehen von schoepferischem
Genie gibt, indem man fodert, was man selbst nicht leisten, tadelt, was
man doch nicht besser machen kann, und vorschlaegt, wovon man selbst
nicht weiss, wo es zu finden ist, wiewohl auch nur zum tuechtigen Plane
einer allgemeinen Kritik der Vernunft schon etwas mehr gehoeret haette,
als man wohl vermuten mag, wenn er nicht bloss, wie gewoehnlich, eine
Deklamation frommer Wuensche haette werden sollen. Allein reine Vernunft
ist eine so abgesonderte, in ihr selbst so durchgaengig verknuepfte
Sphaere, dass man keinen Teil derselben antasten kann, ohne alle uebrige
zu beruehren, und nichts ausrichten kann, ohne vorher jedem seine Stelle
und seinen Einfluss auf den andern bestimmt zu haben, weil, da nichts
ausser derselben ist, was unser Urteil innerhalb berichtigen koennte,
jedes Teiles Gueltigkeit und Gebrauch von dem Verhaeltnisse abhaengt,
darin er gegen die uebrigen in der Vernunft selbst steht, und, wie bei
dem Gliederbau eines organisierten Koerpers, der Zweck jedes Gliedes nur
aus dem vollstaendigen Begriff des Ganzen abgeleitet werden kann. Daher
kann man von einer solchen Kritik sagen: dass sie niemals zuverlaessig
sei, wenn sie nicht ganz und bis auf die mindesten Elemente der reinen
Vernunft vollendet ist, und dass man von der Sphaere dieses Vermoegens
entweder alles oder nichts bestimmen und ausmachen muesse.

Ob aber gleich ein blosser Plan, der vor der Kritik der reinen Vernunft
vorhergehen moechte, unverstaendlich, unzuverlaessig und unnuetze sein
wuerde, so ist er dagegen um desto nuetzlicher, wenn er darauf folgt.
Denn dadurch wird man in den Stand gesetzt, das Ganze zu uebersehen, die
Hauptpunkte, worauf es bei dieser Wissenschaft ankommt, stueckweise zu
pruefen, und manches dem Vortrage nach besser einzurichten, als es in
der ernsten Ausfertigung des Werks geschehen konnte.

Hier ist nun ein solcher Plan, nach vollendetem Werke, der nunmehr nach
analytischer Methode angelegt sein darf, da das Werk selbst durchaus
nach synthetischer Lehrart abgefasst sein musste, damit die Wissenschaft
alle ihre Artikulationen, als den Gliederbau eines ganz besondern
Erkenntnisvermoegens, in seiner natuerlichen Verbindung vor Augen
stelle. Wer diesen Plan, den ich als Prolegomena vor aller kuenftigen
Metaphysik voranschicke, selbst wiederum dunkel findet, der mag
bedenken, dass es eben nicht noetig sei, dass jedermann Metaphysik
studiere, dass es manches Talent gebe, welches in gruendlichen und
selbst tiefen Wissenschaften, die sich mehr der Anschauung naehern, ganz
wohl fortkoemmt, dem es aber mit Nachforschungen durch lauter abgezogene
Begriffe nicht gelingen will, und dass man seine Geistesgaben in solchem
Fall auf einen andern Gegenstand verwenden muesse, dass aber derjenige,
der Metaphysik zu beurteilen, ja selbst eine abzufassen unternimmt,
denen Forderungen, die hier gemacht werden, durchaus ein Gnuege tun
muesse, es mag nun auf die Art geschehen, dass er meine Aufloesung
annimmt, oder sie auch gruendlich widerlegt und eine andere an deren
Stelle setzt, - denn abweisen kann er sie nicht - und dass endlich die
so beschrieene Dunkelheit (eine gewohnte Bemaentelung seiner eigenen
Gemaechlichkeit oder Bloedsichtigkeit) auch ihren Nutzen habe: da alle,
die in Ansehung aller andern Wissenschaften ein behutsames
Stillschweigen beobachten, in Fragen der Metaphysik meisterhaft sprechen
und dreust entscheiden, weil ihre Unwissenheit hier freilich nicht gegen
anderer Wissenschaft deutlich absticht, wohl aber gegen echte kritische
Grundsaetze, von denen man also ruehmen kann:

    ignavum, fucos, pecus a praesepibus arcent     Virg.


Immanuel Kant

BEANTWORTUNG DER FRAGE: WAS IST AUFKLAERUNG ?

Berlinische Monatsschrift. Dezember-Heft 1784. S. 481-494

AUFKLAERUNG ist der Ausgang des Menschen aus seiner
selbstverschuldeten Unmuendigkeit. Unmuendigkeit ist das Unvermoegen,
sich seines Verstandes ohne Leitung eines anderen zu bedienen.
Selbstverschuldet ist diese Unmuendigkeit, wenn die Ursache derselben
nicht am Mangel des Verstandes, sondern der Entschliessung und des
Mutes liegt, sich seiner ohne Leitung eines andern zu bedienen. Sapere
aude! Habe Mut, dich deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen! ist also
der Wahlspruch der Aufklaerung.

Faulheit und Feigheit sind die Ursachen, warum ein so grosser Teil der
Menschen, nachdem sie die Natur laengst von fremder Leitung
freigesprochen [A482] (naturaliter maiorennes), dennoch gerne
zeitlebens unmuendig bleiben; und warum es anderen so leicht wird,
sich zu deren Vormuendern aufzuwerfen. Es ist so bequem, unmuendig zu
sein. Habe ich ein Buch, das fuer mich Verstand hat, einen Seelsorger,
der fuer mich Gewissen hat, einen Arzt, der fuer mich die Diaet
beurteilt usw., so brauche ich mich ja nicht selbst zu bemuehen. Ich
habe nicht noetig zu denken, wenn ich nur bezahlen kann; andere werden
das verdriessliche Geschaeft schon fuer mich uebernehmen. Dass der bei
weitem groesste Teil der Menschen (darunter das ganze schoene
Geschlecht) den Schritt zur Muendigkeit, ausser dem dass er
beschwerlich ist, auch fuer sehr gefaehrlich halte, dafuer sorgen
schon jene Vormuender, die die Oberaufsicht ueber sie guetigst auf
sich genommen haben. Nachdem sie ihr Hausvieh zuerst dumm gemacht
haben und sorgfaeltig verhueteten, dass diese ruhigen Geschoepfe ja
keinen Schritt ausser dem Gaengelwagen, darin sie sie einsperreten,
wagen durften, so zeigen sie ihnen nachher die Gefahr, die ihnen
drohet, wenn sie es versuchen, allein zu gehen. Nun ist diese Gefahr
zwar eben so gross nicht, denn sie wuerden durch einigemal Fallen wohl
endlich gehen lernen; allein ein Beispiel von der Art macht doch
schuechtern und schreckt gemeiniglich von allen ferneren Versuchen ab.

Es ist also fuer jeden einzelnen Menschen schwer, sich aus der ihm
beinahe zur Natur gewordenen Unmuendigkeit [A483] herauszuarbeiten. Er
hat sie sogar liebgewonnen und ist vorderhand wirklich unfaehig, sich
seines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen, weil man ihn niemals den
Versuch davon machen liess. Satzungen und Formeln, diese mechanischen
Werkzeuge eines vernuenftigen Gebrauchs oder vielmehr Missbrauchs
seiner Naturgaben, sind die Fussschellen einer immerwaehrenden
Unmuendigkeit. Wer sie auch abwuerfe, wuerde dennoch auch ueber den
schmalesten Graben einen nur unsicheren Sprung tun, weil er zu
dergleichen freier Bewegung nicht gewoehnt ist. Daher gibt es nur
wenige, denen es gelungen ist, durch eigene Bearbeitung ihres Geistes
sich aus der Unmuendigkeit herauszuwickeln und dennoch einen sicheren
Gang zu tun.

Dass aber ein Publikum sich selbst aufklaere, ist eher moeglich; ja es
ist, wenn man ihm nur Freiheit laesst, beinahe unausbleiblich. Denn da
werden sich immer einige Selbstdenkende, sogar unter den eingesetzten
Vormuendern des grossen Haufens finden, welche, nachdem sie dasJoch
der Unmuendigkeit selbst abgeworfen haben, den Geist einer
vernuenftigen Schaetzung des eigenen Werts und des Berufs jedes
Menschen, selbst zu denken, um sich verbreiten werden. Besonders ist
hiebei: dass das Publikum, welches zuvor von ihnen unter dieses Joch
gebracht worden, sie hernach selbst zwingt, darunter zu bleiben, wenn
es von einigen seiner Vormuender, die selbst aller Aufklaerung
unfaehig sind, dazu aufgewiegelt [A484] worden; so schaedlich ist es,
Vorurteile zu pflanzen, weil sie sich zuletzt an denen selbst raechen,
die oder deren Vorgaenger ihre Urheber gewesen sind. Daher kann ein
Publikum nur langsam zur Aufklaerung gelangen. Durch eine Revolution
wird vielleicht wohl ein Abfall von persoenlichem Despotism und
gewinnsuechtiger oder herrschsuechtiger Bedrueckung, aber niemals
wahre Reform der Denkungsart zustande kommen; sondern neue Vorurteile
werden, ebensowohl als die alten, zum Leitbande des gedankenlosen
grossen Haufens dienen.

Zu dieser Aufklaerung aber wird nichts erfordert als Freiheit; und
zwar die unschaedlichste unter allem, was nur Freiheit heissen mag,
naemlich die: von seiner Vernunft in allen Stuecken oeffentlichen
Gebrauch zu machen. Nun hoere ich aber von allen Seiten rufen:
Raesonniert nicht! Der Offizier sagt: Raesonniert nicht, sondern
exerziert! Der Finanzrat: Raesonniert nicht, sondern bezahlt! Der
Geistliche: Raesonniert nicht, sondern glaubt! (Nur ein einziger Herr
in der Welt sagt: Raesonniert, soviel ihr wollt und worueber ihr
wollt, aber gehorcht!) Hier ist ueberall Einschraenkung der Freiheit.
Welche Einschraenkung aber ist der Aufklaerung hinderlich, welche
nicht, sondern ihr wohl gar befoerderlich? - Ich antworte: Der
oeffentliche Gebrauch seiner Vernunft muss jederzeit frei sein, und
der allein kann Aufklaerung unter Menschen zustande [A485] bringen;
der Privatgebrauch derselben aber darf oefters sehr enge
eingeschraenkt sein, ohne doch darum den Fortschritt der Aufklaerung
sonderlich zu hindern. Ich verstehe aber unter dem oeffentlichen
Gebrauche seiner eigenen Vernunft denjenigen, den jemand als Gelehrter
von ihr vor dem ganzen Publikum der Leserwelt macht. Den
Privatgebrauch nenne ich denjenigen, den er in einem gewissen ihm
anvertrauten buergerlichen Posten oder Amte von seiner Vernunft machen
darf. Nun ist zu manchen Geschaeften, die in das Interesse des
gemeinen Wesens laufen, ein gewisser Mechanism notwendig, vermittelst
dessen einige Glieder des gemeinen Wesens sich bloss passiv verhalten
muessen, um durch eine kuenstliche Einhelligkeit von der Regierung zu
oeffentlichen Zwecken gerichtet oder wenigstens von der Zerstoerung
dieser Zwecke abgehalten zu werden. Hier ist es nun freilich nicht
erlaubt zu raesonnieren; sondern man muss gehorchen. Sofern sich aber
dieser Teil der Maschine zugleich als Glied eines ganzen gemeinen
Wesens, ja sogar der Weltbuergergesellschaft ansieht, mithin in der
Qualitaet eines Gelehrten, der sich an ein Publikum im eigentlichen
Verstande durch Schriften wendet, kann er allerdings raesonnieren,
ohne dass dadurch die Geschaefte leiden, zu denen er zum Teile als
passives Glied angesetzt ist. So wuerde es sehr verderblich sein, wenn
ein Offizier, dem von seinen Oberen etwas anbefohlen wird, im Dienste
[A486] ueber die Zweckmaessigkeit oder Nuetzlichkeit dieses Befehls
laut vernuenfteln wollte; er muss gehorchen. Es kann ihm aber
billigermassen nicht verwehrt werden, als Gelehrter ueber die Fehler
im Kriegesdienste Anmerkungen zu machen und diese seinem Publikum zur
Beurteilung vorzulegen. Der Buerger kann sich nicht weigern, die ihm
auferlegten Abgaben zu leisten; sogar kann ein vorwitziger Tadel
solcher Auflagen, wenn sie von ihm geleistet werden sollen, als ein
Skandal, (das allgemeine Widersetzlichkeiten veranlassen koennte),
bestraft werden. Ebenderselbe handelt demohngeachtet der Pflicht eines
Buergers nicht entgegen, wenn er als Gelehrter wider die
Unschicklichkeit oder auch Ungerechtigkeit solcher Ausschreibungen
oeffentlich seine Gedanken aeussert. Ebenso ist ein Geistlicher
verbunden, seinen Katechismusschuelern und seiner Gemeine nach dem
Symbol der Kirche, der er dient, seinen Vortrag zu tun, denn er ist
auf diese Bedingung angenommen worden. Aber als Gelehrter hat er volle
Freiheit, ja sogar den Beruf dazu, alle seine sorgfaeltig geprueften
und wohlmeinenden Gedanken ueber das Fehlerhafte in jenem Symbol und
Vorschlaege wegen besserer Einrichtung des Religions- und
Kirchenwesens dem Publikum mitzuteilen. Es ist hiebei auch nichts, was
dem Gewissen zur Last gelegt werden koennte. Denn was er zufolge
seines Amts als Geschaefttraeger der Kirche lehrt, das stellt er als
etwas vor, in Ansehung [A487] dessen er nicht freie Gewalt hat, nach
eigenem Gutduenken zu lehren, sondern das er nach Vorschrift und im
Namen eines andern vorzutragen angestellt ist. Er wird sagen: unsere
Kirche lehrt dieses oder jenes; das sind die Beweisgruende, deren sie
sich bedient. Er zieht alsdann allen praktischen Nutzen fuer seine
Gemeinde aus Satzungen, die er selbst nicht mit voller Ueberzeugung
unterschreiben wuerde, zu deren Vortrag er sich gleichwohl anheischig
machen kann, weil es doch nicht ganz unmoeglich ist, dass darin
Wahrheit verborgen laege, auf alle Faelle aber wenigstens doch nichts
der innern Religion Widersprechendes darin angetroffen wird. Denn
glaubte er das letztere darin zu finden, so wuerde er sein Amt mit
Gewissen nicht verwalten koennen; er muesste es niederlegen. Der
Gebrauch also, den ein angestellter Lehrer von seiner Vernunft vor
seiner Gemeinde macht, ist bloss ein Privatgebrauch, weil diese immer
nur eine haeusliche, obzwar noch so grosse Versammlung ist; und in
Ansehung dessen ist er als Priester nicht frei und darf es auch nicht
sein, weil er einen fremden Auftrag ausrichtet. Dagegen als Gelehrter,
der durch Schriften zum eigentlichen Publikum, naemlich der Welt
spricht, mithin der Geistliche im oeffentlichen Gebrauche seiner
Vernunft, geniesst einer uneingeschraenkten Freiheit, sich seiner
eigenen Vernunft zu bedienen und in seiner eigenen Person zu sprechen.
Denn dass die Vormuender des Volks [A488] (in geistlichen Dingen)
selbst wieder unmuendig sein sollen, ist eine Ungereimtheit, die auf
Verewigung der Ungereimtheiten hinauslaeuft.

Aber sollte nicht eine Gesellschaft von Geistlichen, etwa eine
Kirchenversammlung oder eine ehrwuerdige Classis (wie sie sich unter
den Hollaendern selbst nennt), berechtigt sein, sich eidlich auf ein
gewisses unveraenderliches Symbol zu verpflichten, um so eine
unaufhoerliche Obervormundschaft ueber jedes ihrer Glieder und
vermittelst ihrer ueber das Volk zu fuehren und diese so gar zu
verewigen? Ich sage: das ist ganz unmoeglich. Ein solcher Kontrakt,
der auf immer alle weitere Aufklaerung vom Menschengeschlechte
abzuhalten geschlossen wuerde, ist schlechterdings null und nichtig;
und sollte er auch durch die oberste Gewalt, durch Reichstage und die
feierlichsten Friedensschluesse bestaetigt sein. Ein Zeitalter kann
sich nicht verbuenden und darauf verschwoeren, das folgende in einen
Zustand zu setzen, darin es ihm unmoeglich werden muss, seine
(vornehmlich so sehr angelegentliche) Erkenntnisse zu erweitern, von
Irrtuemern zu reinigen und ueberhaupt in der Aufklaerung
weiterzuschreiten. Das waere ein Verbrechen wider die menschliche
Natur, deren urspruengliche Bestimmung gerade in diesem Fortschreiten
besteht; und die Nachkommen sind also vollkommen dazu berechtigt, jene
Beschluesse, als unbefugter und frevelhafter Weise genommen, zu
verwerfen. Der Probierstein [A489] alles dessen, was ueber ein Volk
als Gesetz beschlossen werden kann, liegt in der Frage: ob ein Volk
sich selbst wohl ein solches Gesetz auferlegen koennte? Nun waere
dieses wohl, gleichsam in der Erwartung eines bessern, auf eine
bestimmte kurze Zeit moeglich, um eine gewisse Ordnung einzufuehren:
indem man es zugleich jedem der Buerger, vornehmlich dem Geistlichen,
frei liesse, in der Qualitaet eines Gelehrten oeffentlich, d. i. durch
Schriften, ueber das Fehlerhafte der dermaligen Einrichtung seine
Anmerkungen zu machen, indessen die eingefuehrte Ordnung noch immer
fortdauerte, bis die Einsicht in die Beschaffenheit dieser Sachen
oeffentlich so weit gekommen und bewaehret worden, dass sie durch
Vereinigung ihrer Stimmen (wenngleich nicht aller) einen Vorschlag vor
den Thron bringen koennte, um diejenigen Gemeinden in Schutz zu
nehmen, die sich etwa nach ihren Begriffen der besseren Einsicht zu
einer veraenderten Religionseinrichtung geeinigt haetten, ohne doch
diejenigen zu hindern, die es beim alten wollten bewenden lassen. Aber
auf eine beharrliche, von niemanden oeffentlich zu bezweifelnde
Religionsverfassung auch nur binnen der Lebensdauer eines Menschen
sich zu einigen, und dadurch einen Zeitraum in dem Fortgange der
Menschheit zur Verbesserung gleichsam zu vernichten und fruchtlos,
dadurch aber wohl gar der Nachkommenschaft nachteilig zu machen ist
schlechterdings unerlaubt. Ein Mensch kann zwar fuer seine Person
[A490] und auch alsdann nur auf einige Zeit in dem, was ihm zu wissen
obliegt, die Aufklaerung aufschieben; aber auf sie Verzicht zu tun, es
sei fuer seine Person, mehr aber noch fuer die Nachkommenschaft,
heisst die heiligen Rechte der Menschheit verletzen und mit Fuessen
treten. Was aber nicht einmal ein Volk ueber sich selbst beschliessen
darf, das darf noch weniger ein Monarch ueber das Volk beschliessen;
denn sein gesetzgebendes Ansehen beruht eben darauf, dass er den
gesamten Volkswillen in dem seinigen vereinigt. Wenn er nur darauf
sieht, dass alle wahre oder vermeinte Verbesserung mit der
buergerlichen Ordnung zusammenbestehe, so kann er seine Untertanen
uebrigens nur selbst machen lassen, was sie um ihres Seelenheils
willen zu tun noetig finden; das geht ihn nichts an, wohl aber zu
verhueten, dass nicht einer den andern gewalttaetig hindere, an der
Bestimmung und Befoerderung desselben nach allem seinen Vermoegen zu
arbeiten. Es tut selbst seiner Majestaet Abbruch, wenn er sich hierin
mischt, indem er die Schriften, wodurch seine Untertanen ihre
Einsichten ins reine zu bringen suchen, seiner Regierungsaufsicht
wuerdigt, sowohl wenn er dieses aus eigener hoechsten Einsicht tut, wo
er sich dem Vorwurfe aussetzt: Caesar non est supra grammaticos, als
auch und noch weit mehr, wenn er seine oberste Gewalt soweit
erniedrigt, den geistlichen Despotism einiger Tyrannen [A491] in
seinem Staate gegen seine uebrigen Untertanen zu unterstuetzen.

Wenn denn nun gefragt wird: leben wir jetzt in einem aufgeklaerten
Zeitalter? so ist die Antwort: Nein, aber wohl in einem Zeitalter der
Aufklaerung. Dass die Menschen, wie die Sachen jetzt stehen, im ganzen
genommen, schon imstande waeren oder darin auch nur gesetzt werden
koennten, in Religionsdingen sich ihres eigenen Verstandes ohne
Leitung eines andern sicher und gut zu bedienen, daran fehlt noch sehr
viel. Allein, dass jetzt ihnen doch das Feld geoeffnet wird, sich
dahin frei zu bearbeiten und die Hindernisse der allgemeinen
Aufklaerung oder des Ausganges aus ihrer selbstverschuldeten
Unmuendigkeit allmaehlich weniger werden, davon haben wir doch
deutliche Anzeigen. In diesem Betracht ist dieses Zeitalter das
Zeitalter der Aufklaerung oder das Jahrhundert FRIEDERICHS.

Ein Fuerst, der es seiner nicht unwuerdig findet zu sagen, dass er es
fuer Pflicht halte, in Religionsdingen den Menschen nichts
vorzuschreiben, sondern ihnen darin volle Freiheit zu lassen, der also
selbst den hochmuetigen Namen der Toleranz von sich ablehnt, ist
selbst aufgeklaert und verdient von der dankbaren Welt und Nachwelt
als derjenige gepriesen zu werden, der zuerst das menschliche
Geschlecht der Unmuendigkeit, wenigsten von seiten der Regierung,
entschlug und jedem frei liess, sich [A492] in allem, was
Gewissensangelegenheit ist, seiner eigenen Vernunft zu bedienen. Unter
ihm duerfen verehrungswuerdige Geistliche, unbeschadet ihrer
Amtspflicht, ihre vom angenommenen Symbol hier oder da abweichenden
Urteile und Einsichten in der Qualitaet der Gelehrten frei und
oeffentlich der Welt zur Pruefung darlegen; noch mehr aber jeder
andere, der durch keine Amtspflicht eingeschraenkt ist. Dieser Geist
der Freiheit breitet sich auch ausserhalb aus, selbst da, wo er mit
aeusseren Hindernissen einer sich selbst missverstehenden Regierung zu
ringen hat. Denn es leuchtet dieser doch ein Beispiel vor, dass bei
Freiheit fuer die oeffentliche Ruhe und Einigkeit des gemeinen Wesens
nicht das mindeste zu besorgen sei. Die Menschen arbeiten sich von
selbst nach und nach aus der Rohigkeit heraus, wenn man nur nicht
absichtlich kuenstelt, um sie darin zu erhalten.

Ich habe den Hauptpunkt der Aufklaerung, d. i. des Ausganges der
Menschen aus ihrer selbstverschuldeten Unmuendigkeit, vorzueglich in
Religionssachen gesetzt, weil in Ansehung der Kuenste und
Wissenschaften unsere Beherrscher kein Interesse haben, den Vormund
ueber ihre Untertanen zu spielen, ueberdem auch jene Unmuendigkeit, so
wie die schaedlichste, also auch die entehrendste unter allen ist.
Aber die Denkungsart eines Staatsoberhaupts, der die erstere
beguenstigt, geht noch weiter und sieht ein: dass selbst in Ansehung
seiner Gesetzgebung [A493] es ohne Gefahr sei, seinen Untertanen zu
erlauben, von ihrer eigenen Vernunft oeffentlichen Gebrauch zu machen
und ihre Gedanken ueber eine bessere Abfassung derselben, sogar mit
einer freimuetigen Kritik der schon gegebenen, der Welt oeffentlich
vorzulegen; davon wir ein glaenzendes Beispiel haben, wodurch noch
kein Monarch demjenigen vorging, welchen wir verehren.

Aber auch nur derjenige, der, selbst aufgeklaert, sich nicht vor
Schatten fuerchtet, zugleich aber ein wohldiszipliniertes zahlreiches
Heer zum Buergen der oeffentlichen Ruhe zur Hand hat, - kann das
sagen, was ein Freistaat nicht wagen darf: Raesonniert, soviel ihr
wollt, und worueber ihr wollt; nur gehorcht! So zeigt sich hier ein
befremdlicher, nicht erwarteter Gang menschlicher Dinge; sowie auch
sonst, wenn man ihn im grossen betrachtet, darin fast alles paradox
ist. Ein groesserer Grad buergerlicher Freiheit scheint der Freiheit
des Geistes des Volks vorteilhaft und setzt ihr doch unuebersteigliche
Schranken; ein Grad weniger von jener verschafft hingegen diesem Raum,
sich nach allem seinen Vermoegen auszubreiten. Wenn denn die Natur
unter dieser harten Huelle den Keim, fuer den sie am zaertlichsten
sorgt, naemlich den Hang und Beruf zum freien Denken, ausgewickelt
hat: so wirkt dieser allmaehlich zurueck auf die Sinnesart des Volks,
(wodurch dies der Freiheit zu handeln [A494] nach und nach faehiger
wird), und endlich auch sogar auf die Grundsaetze der Regierung, die
es ihr selbst zutraeglich findet, den Menschen, der nun mehr als
Maschine ist, seiner Wuerde gemaess zu behandeln.

Koenigsberg in Preussen, den 30. Septemb. 1784.               I. Kant.


               Kritik
                der
           reinen Vernunft

                von

            Immanuel Kant

Professor in Koenigsberg,
der Koenigl. Akademie der Wissenschaften in Berlin
Mitglied

Zweite hin und wieder verbesserte Auflage
               (1787)


Zueignung
Vorrede
Einleitung
I. Von dem Unterschiede der reinen und empirischen Erkenntnis
II.   Wir sind im Besitze gewisser Erkenntnisse a priori, und selbst der
gemeine Verstand ist niemals ohne solche
III.  Die Philosophie bedarf einer Wissenschaft, welche die
Moeglichkeit, die Prinzipien und den Umfang aller Erkenntnisse a priori
bestimme
IV.   Von dem Unterschiede analytischer und synthetischer Urteile
V. In allen theoretischen Wissenschaften der Vernunft sind synthetische
Urteile a priori als Prinzipien enthalten
VI.   Allgemeine Aufgabe der reinen Vernunft
VII.  Idee und Einteilung einer besonderen Wissenschaft, unter dem Namen
einer Kritik der reinen Vernunft
I. Transzendentale Elementarlehre

Erster Teil. Die transzendentale Aesthetik

P 1
1. Abschnitt. Von dem Raume
P 2. Metaphysische Eroerterung dieses Begriffs
P 3. Transzendentale Eroerterung des Begriffs vom Raume
2. Abschnitt. Von der Zeit
P 4. Metaphysische Eroerterung des Begriffs der Zeit
P 5. Transzendentale Eroerterung des Begriffs der Zeit
P 6. Schluesse aus diesen Begriffen
P 7. Erlaeuterung
P 8. Allgemeine Anmerkungen zur transzendentalen Aesthetik
Zweiter Teil. Die transzendentale Logik

Einleitung. Idee einer transzendentalen Logik
I. Von der Logik ueberhaupt
II.   Von der transzendentalen Logik
III.  Von der Einteilung der allgemeinen Logik in Analytik und Dialektik
IV.   Von der Einteilung der transzendentalen Logik in die
transzendentale Analytik und Dialektik
Erste Abteilung. Die transzendentale Analytik

Erstes Buch. Die Analytik der Begriffe
1. Hauptstueck. Von dem Leitfaden der Entdeckung aller reinen
Verstandesbegriffe
1. Abschnitt. Von dem logischen Verstandesgebrauche ueberhaupt
2. Abschnitt

P 9. Von der logischen Funktion des Verstandes in Urteilen
3. Abschnitt

P 10. Von den reinen Verstandesbegriffen oder Kategorien
P 11
P 12

2. Hauptstueck. Von der Deduktion der reinen Verstandesbegriffe
1. Abschnitt

P 13. Von den Prinzipien einer transzendentalen Deduktion ueberhaupt
P 14. Uebergang zur transzendentalen Deduktion der Kategorien
2. Abschnitt. Transzendentale Deduktion der reinen Verstandesbegriffe

P 15. Von der Moeglichkeit einer Verbindung ueberhaupt
P 16. Von der urspruenglich-synthetischen Einheit der Apperzeption
P 17. Der Grundsatz der synthetischen Einheit der Apperzeption ist das
oberste Prinzip alles Verstandesgebrauchs
P 18. Was objektive Einheit des Selbstbewusstseins sei
P 19. Die logische Form aller Urteile besteht in der objektiven Einheit
der Apperzeption der darin enthaltenen Begriffe
P 20. Alle sinnliche Anschauungen stehen unter den Kategorien, als
Bedingungen, unter denen allein das Mannigfaltige derselben in ein
Bewusstsein zusammenkommen kann
P 21. Anmerkung
P 22. Die Kategorie hat keinen andern Gebrauch zum Erkenntnisse der
Dinge, als ihre Anwendung auf Gegenstaende der Erfahrung
P 23
P 24. Von der Anwendung der Kategorien auf Gegenstaende der Sinne
ueberhaupt
P 25
P 26. Transzendentale Deduktion des allgemein moeglichen
Erfahrungsgebrauchs der reinen Verstandesbegriffe
P 27. Resultat dieser Deduktion der Verstandesbegriffe

Zweites Buch. Die Analytik der Grundsaetze
Einleitung. Von der transzendentalen Urteilskraft ueberhaupt
1. Hauptstueck. Von dem Schematismus der reinen Verstandesbegriffe
2. Hauptstueck. System aller Grundsaetze des reinen Verstandes
1. Abschnitt. Von dem obersten Grundsatze aller analytischen Urteile
2. Abschnitt. Von dem obersten Grundsatze aller synthetischen Urteile
3. Abschnitt. Systematische Vorstellung aller synthetischen Grundsaetze
desselben
1. Axiome der Anschauung
2. Antizipationen der Wahrnehmung
3. Analogien der Erfahrung
A. Erste Analogie. Grundsatz der Beharrlichkeit der Substanz
B. Zweite Analogie. Grundsatz der Zeitfolge nach dem Gesetze der
Kausalitaet
C. Dritte Analogie. Grundsatz des Zugleichseins, nach dem Gesetze der
Wechselwirkung, oder Gemeinschaft
4. Die Postulate des empirischen Denkens ueberhaupt

Widerlegung des Idealismus
Allgemeine Anmerkung zum System der Grundsaetze

3. Hauptstueck. Von dem Grunde der Unterscheidung aller Gegenstaende
ueberhaupt in Phaenomena und Noumena

Anhang. Von der Amphibolie der Reflexionsbegriffe
Anmerkung zur Amphibolie der Reflexionsbegriffe

Zweite Abteilung. Die transzendentale Dialektik

Einleitung
I. Vom transzendentalen Schein
II.   Von der reinen Vernunft als dem Sitze des transzendentalen Scheins
A. Von der Vernunft ueberhaupt
B. Vom logischen Gebrauche der Vernunft
C. Von dem reinen Gebrauche der Vernunft

Erstes Buch. Von den Begriffen der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Von den Ideen ueberhaupt
2. Abschnitt. Von den transzendentalen Ideen
3. Abschnitt. System der transzendentalen Ideen
Zweites Buch. Von den dialektischen Schluessen der reinen Vernunft
1. Hauptstueck. Von den Paralogismen der reinen Vernunft

Widerlegung des Mendelssohnschen Beweises der Beharrlichkeit der Seele
Beschluss der Aufloesung des psychologischen Paralogisms
Allgemeine Anmerkung, den Uebergang von der rationalen Psychologie zur
Kosmologie betreffend
2. Hauptstueck. Die Antinomie der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. System der kosmologischen Ideen
2. Abschnitt. Antithetik der reinen Vernunft

Erster Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
Zweiter Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
Dritter Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
Vierter Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
3. Abschnitt. Von dem Interesse der Vernunft bei diesem ihrem
Widerstreite
4. Abschnitt. Von den transzendentalen Aufgaben der reinen Vernunft,
insofern sie schlechterdings muessen aufgeloeset werden koennen
5. Abschnitt. Skeptische Vorstellung der kosmologischen Fragen durch
alle vier transzendentalen Ideen
6. Abschnitt. Der transzendentale Idealism als der Schluessel zu
Aufloesung der kosmologischen Dialektik
7. Abschnitt. Kritische Entscheidung des kosmologischen Streits der
Vernunft mit sich selbst
8. Abschnitt. Regulatives Prinzip der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung der
kosmologischen Ideen
9. Abschnitt. Von dem empirischen Gebrauche des regulativen Prinzips der
Vernunft, in Ansehung aller kosmologischen Ideen
I. Aufloesung der kosmologischen Idee von der Totalitaet der
Zusammensetzung der Erscheinungen von einem Weltganzen
II.   Aufloesung der kosmologischen Idee von der Totalitaet der Teilung
eines gegebenen Ganzen in der Anschauung

Schlussanmerkung zur Aufloesung der mathematisch-transzendentalen, und
Vorerinnerung zur Aufloesung der dynamisch-transzendentalen Ideen
III.  Aufloesung der kosmologischen Ideen von der Totalitaet der
Ableitung der Weltbegebenheit aus ihren Ursachen

Moeglichkeit der Kausalitaet durch Freiheit, in Vereinigung mit dem
allgemeinen Gesetze der Naturnotwendigkeit
Erlaeuterung der kosmologischen Idee einer Freiheit in Verbindung mit
der allgemeinen Naturnotwendigkeit
IV.   Aufloesung der kosmologischen Idee von der Totalitaet der
Abhaengigkeit der Erscheinungen, ihrem Dasein nach ueberhaupt

Schlussanmerkung zur ganzen Antinomie der reinen Vernunft
3. Hauptstueck. Das Ideal der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Von dem Ideal ueberhaupt
2. Abschnitt. Von dem transzendentalen Ideal (Prototypon
transscendentale)
3. Abschnitt. Von den Beweisgruenden der spekulativen Vernunft, auf das
Dasein eines hoechsten Wesens zu schliessen
4. Abschnitt. Von der Unmoeglichkeit eines ontologischen Beweises vom
Dasein Gottes
5. Abschnitt. Von der Unmoeglichkeit eines kosmologischen Beweises vom
Dasein Gottes

Entdeckung und Erklaerung des dialektischen Scheins in allen
transzendentalen Beweisen vom Dasein eines notwendigen Wesens
6. Abschnitt. Von der Unmoeglichkeit des physikotheologischen Beweises
7. Abschnitt. Kritik aller Theologie aus spekulativen Prinzipien der
Vernunft

Anhang zur transzendentalen Dialektik

Von dem regulativen Gebrauch der Ideen der reinen Vernunft
Von der Endabsicht der natuerlichen Dialektik der menschlichen Vernunft

II. Transzendentale Methodenlehre
1. Hauptstueck. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft im dogmatischen
Gebrauche
2. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung ihres
polemischen Gebrauchs

Von der Unmoeglichkeit einer skeptischen Befriedigung der mit sich
selbst veruneinigten reinen Vernunft
3. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung der
Hypothesen
4. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung ihrer
Beweise
2. Hauptstueck. Der Kanon der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Von dem letzten Zwecke des reinen Gebrauchs unserer
Vernunft
2. Abschnitt. Von dem Ideal des hoechsten Guts, als einem
Bestimmungsgrunde des letzten Zwecks der reinen Vernunft
3. Abschnitt. Vom Meinen, Wissen und Glauben
3. Hauptstueck. Die Architektonik der reinen Vernunft
4. Hauptstueck. Die Geschichte der reinen Vernunft

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: A look at some interesting parans.
Date: Fri 6 Jun 2003 13:50:12 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306052010.10a7b6ae@posting.google.com>

It's actually quite simple:

If you want to retrieve something from the unconscious,
you have to make sure you formulate it in a beautiful
way, in order to convince the guardians, but you also
have to contend yourself with only part of what you
have seen down there.

That is why Orpheus is not allowed to look back, he
can take his wife back up but nothing more.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: A look at some interesting parans.
Date: Sat 7 Jun 2003 12:51:00 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-F7F99E.23470506062003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <s01Ea.3973$xM5.2641937@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
 "Sharyn" <sharyn721@adelphia.not> wrote:

> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-41CCE7.08471703062003@news.bluewin.ch...
> > Thanks very much Sharyn for being the first person to ask me something
> > about my discoveries. I was really convinced this time that I would no
> > longer post (after about 100 newsgroup posts during the last year).
>
> That would be a shame, Alain, I'm glad you decided otherwise.
>
> I have been busy with other family things and so not able to give my full
> attention to the newsgroup, but please, don't go away. I want to discuss
> this at length with you as soon as time permits. (Likely to be after Monday
> when I am free to spend time with this.)
>
> Without going too much into it this morning, I would like to say that your
> models below would seem to require very subjective answers to "how a mother
> is towards her children," etc. This subjectivity has been a problem in the
> testing of astrological theory and tenets, IMHO. And, if we test only
> limited factors (such as a Sun sign only) without considering the rest of
> the chart's influence, then it seems likely that errors could result.
> Collecting enough accurate birth data for experiments such as you seem to be
> describing could be a problem also.
>
> It seems to me we need to test things that are much more concrete. Have you
> thought about testing the timing of critical illnesses, major life events,
> the effects of planting by the Moon's astrological sign and phase vs
> planting randomly, and so forth?
>
> These are thoughts that have long been rambling around in my own mind
> regarding the testing of astrology. I think that, not only do we need very
> simple models, we also need very concrete effects to show in order to
> eliminate the problem of subjectivity on the part of testing subjects.
>
> Anyway, hope to hear again from you on this, and will be back to respond
> with more depth to you post and talk about it all, as soon as possible.

Thank you so much. For me it is about a million times harder to write
something out into the void than to answer questions, reply and
discuss things. Talking quite concretely about how astrology can be
tested is something that interests me very much and I also feel that
the place here could be quite fruitful for that.

I feel a bit like the mother of my discoveries who has to ensure that
the child (initially) evolves well. For that I had also to test this
newsgroup, to feel its teeth. Despite its chart, it feels to me like
quite a protected place, a prerequisite for the growth of new things.
The charter aims (as far as I understand) to remove focus from
personal differences to discussing the issues, something I prefer,
especially as a scientist where ideally several scientists discuss
nature, leaving their personal interests aside.

Please anybody feel free to cite any of my previous statements on
any newsgroups and put them up for discussion here (as long as they
are relevant/allowed here, of course).

Give me some time to respond to your concrete comments and
suggestions. Let me just say this now: What is important in my setup
is maybe not really to get the correct factual situation from the
members of the family (except birth dates), but to predict accurately
what they will say about each other. The "fact" would in that case be
what they say, not what they do. I also have a completely different
approach in mind, but would like to present it later in some detail,
it consists essentially of tapping into the huge amount of digitial
(i.e. already computer-ready) data that the internet represents.

Thanks again,

Alain

Just in case: It is not my conscious intention to "put a spell" on
anybody as could be associated with Orpheus' shadow (see Pete P's post
about Wega in Orpheus' lyre, Lyra), but I acknowledge that there might
be a certain chance of something of that sort happening: This is not
what I want, and also not what would be good for the world or for me.
So I will try to avoid it and please remain critical of what I write
here. Note also that, although I have four planets in the 12th house,
I also have Saturn at the end of Pisces, so quite a bit of the piscean
quality of my posts is the result of several years of hard work and
possibly the main reason for the existence of the discoveries
document.

* The final build of discoveries.pdf was 5 March 2002 at 0.05 am
in Zurich, Switzerland (in UTC: 4 March 2002 at 23.05), chart:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/timeline.html

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: Wega
Date: Sat 7 Jun 2003 13:37:45 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder25@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <astalder25-1FEDE7.13374507062003@news.dplanet.ch>

In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:

> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
>
> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

What follows below may appear totally incoherent to some readers.
Don't worry, I am a physicist and know what I am doing. The
following just refers to different things, that are not all
visible here, and in a complex and intelligent way...

&%*!&! Jupiter-Neptune conjunction, creating such beautiful things:

I wrote that about Quaoar rising with Vega then just out of "Trotz"
(defiance), with the intent to show the fates that I can choose my
correlations myself and I even did a quick check to ensure that
Quaoar cannot be rising with Vega. Well, at that time I thought
that parans have to do with the path that a planet makes during the
day across the sky, whereas Quaoar rising with Vega actually means
that when Quaoar is rising above the horizon, Vega is rising above
the horizon too, although at a different place. Yes, you guessed
right, Vega was close to the horizon when Quaoar rose on August
7th, 1966 seen from Zurich, Switzerland. (I have to qualify this a
little bit, I am using an astronomical program that shows the
planets and the horizon, but only up to Pluto, so I have to
extrapolate by eye when Quaoar rose, and then Vega is quite close
to the horizon and it is rising too, which I can verify by checking
where it is an hour later).

But, in my defense, I also have to say that there is a much more
modest planet going down below the horizon around the same time,
namely Alsuhail or lambda Vela, the sail of the ship Argo, where
Alsuhail means, according to annew, "smooth plain" and has also the
suffix "al Wazn", "weight", "as the star seems to rise with
difficulty from the horizon".

So fates, what should I do ? Gimme a sign... ;)

But I guess this very thing here must have been the sign. So I will
do what I had planned all along, I will essentially just do my
thing, like Kant did and also in the sense of my northern node
being in Taurus. I will design and publish a document that brings
the crucial points of my discoveries to everybody, with lots of
illustrations. It will not go so deep as to hurt anybody, just be
beautiful and useful in everyday life. I will write it under my
pseudonym delphi29, resp. "Delphi Twentine" which will give me a
much more pleasant reception in the public, because delphi29 has a
different MC and AC than I do (and I have no idea which one and I
don't want to know it either). I guess that is part of following a
proven path II: I::, since software that I developed under the
pseudonym Delphi Twentine (an astrology program for PalmOS) is much
better received than what I ever made public under my real name,
Alain Stalder, like my discoveries or trueColor for HyperCard. And
I will essentially have to reverse the order in which I explain
things compared to the discoveries document, like Kant did in his
Prolegomena and others before him.

I will write and publish "easy to use astrology" resp. "Leicht
zugaengliche Astrologie" both in german and in english and publish
it very probably initially in electronic form, with the option for
others to provide translations and feedback, and then later, when
enough interest has been created to easily find a publisher, to
publish it as a little book that will be useful and helpful for
almost everybody.

I will discuss some issues related to astrology at aat or other
places, when desired, especially when it comes to helping with my
way of thinking and my experience as a scientist. But I will have
to avoid now to get again deep into complex psychological
constructs, like exploring things that I do not fully understand,
like houses or nodes and eclipses, or going deeper into certainly
interesting stuff like stellar parans. I will have to moderate
where I invest my energy, in the interest of everybody and try to
maintain modesty throughout.

Looking back, the above feels again like a mixture of
Jup-Neptune plus Uranus in Pisces, but it still feels right to
put this out. Jupiter is lucky

Quaoar rising with Vega and with setting Alsuhail, beauty and
modesty, Taurus.

Alain Stalder

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: Wega
Date: Sat 7 Jun 2003 18:18:42 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Message-ID: <astalder-C69EAD.18184207062003@news.bluewin.ch>

In article <astalder25-1FEDE7.13374507062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
 Alain Stalder <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
>  Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > There it is:
> > Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> > I'm free.
> > Alain Stalder
> > |:| :|:
> > Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> > Kant
> >
> > Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
>
> What follows below may appear totally incoherent to some readers.
> Don't worry, I am a physicist and know what I am doing. The
> following just refers to different things, that are not all
> visible here, and in a complex and intelligent way...
>
> &%*!&! Jupiter-Neptune conjunction, creating such beautiful things:
>
> I wrote that about Quaoar rising with Vega then just out of "Trotz"
> (defiance), with the intent to show the fates that I can choose my
> correlations myself and I even did a quick check to ensure that
> Quaoar cannot be rising with Vega. Well, at that time I thought
> that parans have to do with the path that a planet makes during the
> day across the sky, whereas Quaoar rising with Vega actually means
> that when Quaoar is rising above the horizon, Vega is rising above
> the horizon too, although at a different place. Yes, you guessed
> right, Vega was close to the horizon when Quaoar rose on August
> 7th, 1966 seen from Zurich, Switzerland. (I have to qualify this a
> little bit, I am using an astronomical program that shows the
> planets and the horizon, but only up to Pluto, so I have to
> extrapolate by eye when Quaoar rose, and then Vega is quite close
> to the horizon and it is rising too, which I can verify by checking
> where it is an hour later).
>
> But, in my defense, I also have to say that there is a much more
> modest planet going down below the horizon around the same time,
> namely Alsuhail or lambda Vela, the sail of the ship Argo, where
> Alsuhail means, according to annew, "smooth plain" and has also the
> suffix "al Wazn", "weight", "as the star seems to rise with
> difficulty from the horizon".
>
 [...]
>
> Quaoar rising with Vega and with setting Alsuhail, beauty and
> modesty, Taurus.
>
> Alain Stalder

Jupiter-Neptune fighting, luck and illusion.
A more detailed analysis reveals Vega and Alsuhail
not exactly rising with Quaoar. I still like
Alsuhail, mag 2.21 and 148 ly from here.

Alain

--
Details:

rise times from Planetarium on Palm, planetary
positions from astro.com

Ura rising 08h14, position 17 Vir 47
Nep rising 13h38, position 19 Sco 25
Qua position 54 Lib 47 => rising 10h23

Vega rising 11h47,
Alsuhail transit 12h31 -0.7deg^

Subject: Re: Stellar stories: Wega
Date: Sun 8 Jun 2003 00:00:24 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306071400.b5dcdf4@posting.google.com>

A good inventor is not necessarily a good promoter.
The will be no more posts under the name Alain Stalder.

delphi29@excite.com


Keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Matrix Elements
Date: Mon 9 Jun 2003 09:44:55 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306082344.12e0667@posting.google.com>

Some elements of this matrix

Leda and the swan, Hermes and Helena, Robert Graves TGM 62
Quaoar rising with Sadr (Cygnus, breast of swan/Leda) setting
Alphecca, crown, Leda/Helena
egg, male/female divine/mortal children
"easy to use" will be one of them, custody transferred,
best wishes

Chiron and Prometheus, switching, sacrifice
Prometheus (forethought), Epimetheus (afterthought), Pandora
art of stealing the fire, leo invent, aquarius promote
(progress in imagination, reality), CH - AUS,US,...
1291-08-01 early morning (ch/europe vs. delphi/greece)

8
Uranus 8th planet, 8th gate anus (Milan Kundera), Ur-anus,
8 is two gates (two rings), lunar nodes, mouth and anus,
vegetative (lunar) tube through body, muscle is a ring,
Thomas Ring, falling and turning apple, modulate fate
by looking from the side (cf. bullet time)

64 parans, 8x8 (matrix), I Ching, Aquarius (AUS), Brady
internet, web (sagittarius), no existence without machines
and people, mind and matter, open, data source

Sabina Spielrein's heel: mark, urge for progress (RUS),
Jung "Russia gets the ball rolling" (bollingen tower),
Freud, "Die Destruktion als Ursache des Werdens" (scorpio, 8th)
Solaris, happy that I did not get Sabina Spielrein

1965-03-05 Ostrava (CZ) P
1963 sag Ostrava (CZ) S
the vane sisters (nabokov), Wow.

Dali, Duerrenmatt, and others, but most importantly Kant
Jupiter in Sagittarius, Plato, Petrarca
Charles Harvey, sun-Neptune, Jung, Proclus, Petrarca, AS

fox on ice, tree on mountain
21 (physics), Dirac, Feynman, Einstein (Mileva Maric),
Kafka (never managed to analyze), Milena

Libra (IC) and Scorpio (southern node)
separated by the greeks, still painful
autumn signs, water, decisions

Subject: A few fresh ideas
Date: Wed 18 Jun 2003 15:05:45 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306180505.76f2a25f@posting.google.com>

Hi, judging from some recent posts to this group, the following link
is likely of interest here (at least to some readers):

http://www.exactphilosophy.net

The site essentially proposes a few fresh points of view regarding
the complex consisting of "synchronicity", "quantum mechanics",
"telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", "tarot", etc.

These are, of course, issues that also C.G. Jung was interested in.
Now, independently of whether you attribute any reality to the above
terms (except in the minds of "believers"), the views at the site
above show some interesting connections between these phenomena,
which is potentially of considerable practical value: By putting all
these phenomena onto a unified basis, both scientific confirmation or
refutation could be hinged on a single basis, thus reducing complexity
significantly.

The stuff presented at the site above is complex -- optimally you
should come equipped an initially open mind, with a basic knowledge
of depth psychology, including astrology, and with some knowledge of
20th century physics (quantum mechanics and also the problems that
arise when one tries to combine QM with special relativity).

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: A few fresh ideas
Date: Thu 19 Jun 2003 18:07:09 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306190807.21eb9cf9@posting.google.com>

You seem to have completely missed the point of my post.

The web site I indicated shows a potential logical connection between
"phenomena" like "telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", etc. --
***independently*** of whether these "phenomena" are real or whether
they are just what some people believe.

Let me very quickly wrap up the proposed logical connection:

*IF* there were long-range emotional connections between people's
brains, and if these connections were largely unconscious to people,
then:

- There would be _telepathy_ (obviously).
- The connections would form a large "brain" -- let's call it the
  _collective unconscious_.
- The collective unconscious would know more details about people
  than any individual and hence collective thoughts could appear
  as _precognition_ or _synchronicity_ to individuals.
- The collective unconscious would be very old, and hence it would
  not be too far fetched to assume that it would still think in
  ancient myths, in what Jung coined _Archetypes_.
- People would feel positive emotional feedback from the collective
  unconscious to actions or thoughts that fit such collective
  beliefs, and no feedback or negative feedback to actions or
  thoughts that do not fit collective beliefs.
- One of these beliefs would be _astrology_, the belief that the
  birth date is correlated to human behavior (and you could put
  quite a few other collective beliefs, say "tarot", "I ching"
  "talking to dead people", etc. into a similar bag).

So you get essentially all the buzzwords from a single hypothesis.

Now the question is:

a) Are there long-range emotional connections between people
b) or are the connections short-range or are using known channels
   like speech or gestures and a lot is stored and emulated locally
   in each human brain, with a similar overall effect as a) ?

If either a) or b) is experimentally confirmed, there would a good
reason to assume that "telepathy", "precognition", etc. are possible.
But if both a) and b) are refuted, that would immediately make
"telepathy", "precognition" etc. a lot less likely.

Knowledge is a double edged sword, it can help both sides of an issue.

> This guy is lucid. He goes straight from calling 30 of his claims
> "hypothesis" (which they are not) to all of a sudden calling them
> "facts" (ditto). There is absolutely no intervening steps which list
> any supporting evidence or experimental conditions in which he
> proved/disproved anything. This is not science and it is not
> scientific or logical. You can't determine what reality actually is by
> making wild arse guesses that are based on nothing more than feelings.

I would not react so harshly. Sure, the guy is taking chances to some
degree: Should a) be experimentally proved, he would look quite cool,
don't you think ? On the other hand, he is still quite careful with
the claims he makes. On the web site he states clearly that the
abstract merely wraps up the hypotheses in the document and in his
brief personal review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/review.pdf
he states clearly also the possibility of b). And, of course, the
document is essentially scientific: Not all science is experimental,
there is theory too, and theory often comes before experiment.
(Think only of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, and how far
fetched and difficult to confirm it originally was).

Finally, as the quote in your signature implies,

> "Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch

Both you and Alain Stalder only have their own experience to think
with. And I, for my part, would not dismiss the experience of
an experimental physicist too quickly.

> Yes, and as Jung would have pointed out, the storytale that Alain
> Stalder made up tells us more about the psychology of Alain than it
> does about reality.

Now, that statement seems quite exaggerated. Turning things around,
you could, on the similar footing of a few posts by you, be qualified
as the stereotypical sceptic watchdog, like there are a few in many
newsgroups. Watchdogs bark at any stranger that strolls along or, in
this case, at any new ideas that they cannot immediately recognize
as (almost) old ideas.

Science is, of course, a completely different beast. A researcher in
science has to be initially open to new ideas, has to explore them with
an open mind to some extent, has to connect them to his experience, to
the experiments and theories he knows. He has to look for ways in which
the new ideas can be connected to what is known, he has to look for
specific hypotheses and experiments that would allow to tell things
apart. That is where it becomes crucial to be very sceptical, namely
when the decision has to be taken what will be allowed into science as
a new theory.

By the way, Jung wrote his famous essay about Synchronicity apparently
together with Wolfgang Pauli, the physicist who discovered the Pauli
exclusion principle and also predicted the neutrino, and who also coined
a term that sceptics frequently use: "That is not even wrong!". So,
it appears difficult to predict what they would have said about the
new ideas that you named "storytale". I cannot expect anybody to get
to their level, but I am sure you can do better than your initial reply.

> He mentions them in passing but they aren't necessary to understand
> anything he makes up about astrology and numerology is not a fact but
> a fantasy.

For b) you need no knowledge of modern physics, but for a) you do, as
is shown in detail in the document. The author shows in more detail
than actually necessary for a physicist that electromagnetic waves
(and any other known waves) can practically be excluded as a mechanism
for a). No alternative theory is presented, but some hints at possible
ingredients of future theories are still given. In order to fully
appreciate them, quite a deep fundamental understanding of modern
physics is required. Let me know if anybody is interested in a
summary of these hints here.

delphi29@excite.com

--
The Sage wrote:
> >Reply to article by: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
> >Date written: 18 Jun 2003 06:05:45 -0700
> >MsgID:<d12bedf0.0306180505.76f2a25f@posting.google.com>

> >Hi, judging from some recent posts to this group, the following link
> >is likely of interest here (at least to some readers):

> >http://www.exactphilosophy.net

> >The site essentially proposes a few fresh points of view regarding
> >the complex consisting of "synchronicity", "quantum mechanics",
> >"telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", "tarot", etc.
>
> This guy is lucid. He goes straight from calling 30 of his claims
> "hypothesis" (which they are not) to all of a sudden calling them
> "facts" (ditto). There is absolutely no intervening steps which list
> any supporting evidence or experimental conditions in which he
> proved/disproved anything. This is not science and it is not
> scientific or logical. You can't determine what reality actually is by
> making wild arse guesses that are based on nothing more than feelings.
>
> >These are, of course, issues that also C.G. Jung was interested in.
>
> Yes, and as Jung would have pointed out, the storytale that Alain
> Stalder made up tells us more about the psychology of Alain than it
> does about reality.
>
> >Now, independently of whether you attribute any reality to the above
> >terms (except in the minds of "believers"), the views at the site
> >above show some interesting connections between these phenomena,
> >which is potentially of considerable practical value: By putting all
> >these phenomena onto a unified basis, both scientific confirmation or
> >refutation could be hinged on a single basis, thus reducing complexity
> >significantly.
>
> He doesn't 'show' anything, he just blindly asserts everything.
>
> >The stuff presented at the site above is complex -- optimally you
> >should come equipped an initially open mind, with a basic knowledge
> >of depth psychology, including astrology, and with some knowledge of
> >20th century physics (quantum mechanics and also the problems that
> >arise when one tries to combine QM with special relativity).
>
> He mentions them in passing but they aren't necessary to understand
> anything he makes up about astrology and numerology is not a fact but
> a fantasy.
>
> The Sage
>
> =============================================================
> My Home Page      :           http://members.cox.net/the.sage
>
> "Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch
> =============================================================

Subject: Re: A few fresh ideas
Date: Fri 20 Jun 2003 07:47:40 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306192147.3a3f8ee1@posting.google.com>

Let me just pick out one:

> >*IF* there were long-range emotional connections between people's
> >brains, and if these connections were largely unconscious to people,
> >then:
>
> That's two "ifs", not one, but there are many more that follow...
>
> >- There would be _telepathy_ (obviously).
>
> Only if telepathy exists.

I said effectively: "If there is a specific form of telepathy,
                     then there is telepathy"
You replied: "Only if telepathy exists"
The logical answer would have been: "Yes"

A discussion on this level makes no sense. You should consider
whether what you are doing in this newsgroup makes any sense.

delphi29@excite.com

--
The Sage wrote:
> >Reply to article by: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
> >Date written: 19 Jun 2003 09:07:09 -0700
> >MsgID:<d12bedf0.0306190807.21eb9cf9@posting.google.com>

> >You seem to have completely missed the point of my post.
>
> Or more likely, you completely missed the point of my post.
>
> >The web site I indicated shows a potential logical connection between
> >"phenomena" like "telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", etc. --
> >***independently*** of whether these "phenomena" are real or whether
> >they are just what some people believe.
>
> It isn't logical to make things up out of thin air, especially thirty
> things, and pretend that your make believe precepts are going to have
> anything at all to do with reality. Reality doesn't work that way, at
> least not the non-imaginary kind.
>
> >Let me very quickly wrap up the proposed logical connection:
>
> This doesn't look very "quick" to me...
>
> >*IF* there were long-range emotional connections between people's
> >brains, and if these connections were largely unconscious to people,
> >then:
>
> That's two "ifs", not one, but there are many more that follow...
>
> >- There would be _telepathy_ (obviously).
>
> Only if telepathy exists.
>
> >- The connections would form a large "brain" -- let's call it the
> >  _collective unconscious_.
>
> Only if emotional connections could create a brain (I doubt any brain
> functions are due purely to it's emotional content).
>
> >- The collective unconscious would know more details about people
> >  than any individual and hence collective thoughts could appear
> >  as _precognition_ or _synchronicity_ to individuals.
>
> Only if the collective unconscious could read minds.
>
> >- The collective unconscious would be very old,
>
> How old would it be. No guessing now please.
>
> >  and hence it would
> >  not be too far fetched to assume that it would still think in
> >  ancient myths, in what Jung coined _Archetypes_.
>
> Only if it were very old.
>
> >- People would feel positive emotional feedback from the collective
> >  unconscious to actions or thoughts that fit such collective
> >  beliefs, and no feedback or negative feedback to actions or
> >  thoughts that do not fit collective beliefs.
>
> Only if the collective brain would give us some feedback.
>
> >- One of these beliefs would be _astrology_, the belief that the
> >  birth date is correlated to human behavior (and you could put
> >  quite a few other collective beliefs, say "tarot", "I ching"
> >  "talking to dead people", etc. into a similar bag).
>
> Only if there is a connection between the collective brain and the
> occult religions. No such connection has been postulated and no such
> connection has certainly been observed to exist.
>
> >So you get essentially all the buzzwords from a single hypothesis.
>
> All you get is a bunch of blind faith assertions. No facts, just all
> talk. No objective observations or any of the reality of these things,
> just "trust me when I pretend the following might be true...".
>
> >Now the question is:
>
> Questions based on blind faith assertion is nonsense. The only place
> such questioning can lead one is in circles.
>
> >Finally, as the quote in your signature implies,

> >>"Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> >>his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch

> >Both you and Alain Stalder only have their own experience to think
> >with.
>
> That is not correct. I have something beyond experience and it is
> called logic and reasoning and the scientific method. There are ways
> to know what the world is like outside the little bubble world of our
> minds. The purpose of the quote was to demonstrate just how futile it
> is to use just experience to try and get to know reality, because
> everyone has a different experience for the same things.
>
> >And I, for my part, would not dismiss the experience of
> >an experimental physicist too quickly.
>
> And what makes an experimental physicist's experience any different
> from your's or mine? Have you ever heard of the logical fallacy of
> appeal to authority?
>
> >>Yes, and as Jung would have pointed out, the storytale that Alain
> >>Stalder made up tells us more about the psychology of Alain than it
> >>does about reality.

> >Now, that statement seems quite exaggerated.
>
> No exaggeration needed, it is exactly what Jung said. All of his
> studies of fairytales, myths, and astrology were examples of where
> Jung used the "theories" of the people of those times to unconsciously
> tell tales about how their minds work (they certainly weren't tales of
> actual reality).
>
> >Turning things around,
> >you could, on the similar footing of a few posts by you, be qualified
> >as the stereotypical sceptic watchdog, like there are a few in many
> >newsgroups. Watchdogs bark at any stranger that strolls along or, in
> >this case, at any new ideas that they cannot immediately recognize
> >as (almost) old ideas.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. It won't change the fact that I am right. I'm only
> interested in facts, not name calling.
>
> >Science is, of course, a completely different beast.
>
> You don't know what science is then.
>
> >A researcher in
> >science has to be initially open to new ideas, has to explore them with
> >an open mind to some extent, has to connect them to his experience, to
> >the experiments and theories he knows.
>
> On the contrary, science begins with doubt. "I respect faith, but
> doubt is what gives you an education." (Wilson Mizner)
>
> "Science must begin with myths, and with the criticism of myths." (Sir
> Karl Popper)
>
> >He has to look for ways in which
> >the new ideas can be connected to what is known, he has to look for
> >specific hypotheses and experiments that would allow to tell things
> >apart. That is where it becomes crucial to be very sceptical, namely
> >when the decision has to be taken what will be allowed into science as
> >a new theory.
>
> This is also crucial where it becomes necessary for a scientist to
> find errors and uncover flaws.
>
> "There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and
> must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for
> any evidence, to correct any errors." (J. Robert Oppenheimer, Life, 10
> October 1949)
>
> >By the way, Jung wrote his famous essay about Synchronicity apparently
> >together with Wolfgang Pauli, the physicist who discovered the Pauli
> >exclusion principle and also predicted the neutrino, and who also coined
> >a term that sceptics frequently use: "That is not even wrong!". So,
> >it appears difficult to predict what they would have said about the
> >new ideas that you named "storytale". I cannot expect anybody to get
> >to their level, but I am sure you can do better than your initial reply.
>
> Those are exceptions to the rule and not the rule. Think about how
> many things served us yesterday as articles of faith but today are
> just myths and fables! Flat Earth? Tripanation? Exorcisms? The
> Philosopher's Stone?
>
> >>He mentions them in passing but they aren't necessary to understand
> >>anything he makes up about astrology and numerology is not a fact but
> >>a fantasy.

> >For b) you need no knowledge of modern physics, but for a) you do, as
> >is shown in detail in the document.
>
> That assertion has yet to be proved.
>
> Only one page contained any reference to modern physics and that one
> page offered nothing new that we already didn't know about physics.
> Blind faith assertion doesn't require physics, just some claims made
> in the absence of evidence.
>
> And the scientific method teaches us that the proper thing to do when
> presented with a claim that cannot be backed up with a shred of actual
> evidence, is to doubt that claim. Doubt is the beginning of scientific
> wisdom; belief is the beginning of religion.
>
> "Science tells us what we can know but what we can know is little and
> if we forget how much we cannot know we become insensitive of many
> things of very great importance. Theology, on the other hand induces a
> dogmatic belief that we have knowledge where in fact we have ignorance
> and by doing so generates a kind of impertinent insolence towards the
> universe. Uncertainty in the presence of vivid hopes and fears is
> painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of
> comforting fairy tales" (Bertrand Russell)
>
> >The author shows in more detail
> >than actually necessary for a physicist that electromagnetic waves
> >(and any other known waves) can practically be excluded as a mechanism
> >for a). No alternative theory is presented, but some hints at possible
> >ingredients of future theories are still given. In order to fully
> >appreciate them, quite a deep fundamental understanding of modern
> >physics is required. Let me know if anybody is interested in a
> >summary of these hints here.
>
> Name just one of the thirty "hypothesis" that were stated that require
> a "deep fundamental understanding of modern physics". It doesn't
> exist. Every single one of the "hypothesis" can be understood without
> any knowledge of physics.
>
> The Sage
>
> =============================================================
> My Home Page      :           http://members.cox.net/the.sage
>
> "Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch
> =============================================================
keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Re: A few fresh ideas
Date: Fri 20 Jun 2003 12:23:30 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306200223.69b6cab4@posting.google.com>

Just in case:

I said effectively: "If there is a specific form of telepathy,
                     then there is telepathy"

A := "There is telepathy"
B := <some specifications>

    A and B => A
<=> not (A and B) or A
<=> not A or not B or A
<=> (not A or A) or not B
<=> true or not B
<=> true

In other words, the logical answer would have been: "Yes"

You replied: "Only if telepathy exists"

    (A <=> (A and B => A)
<=> (A <=> true)
<=> A

Your statement is true if telepathy exists and false otherwise.

delphi29@excite.com

--
I wrote:
> I said effectively: "If there is a specific form of telepathy,
>                      then there is telepathy"
> You replied: "Only if telepathy exists"
> The logical answer would have been: "Yes"

Subject: Re: A few fresh ideas
Date: Fri 20 Jun 2003 19:04:41 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306200904.1a1ecf39@posting.google.com>

*Philip* wrote:
> If the moon is made of green cheese then I can fly around the room.

;)

Subject: Re: A few fresh ideas
Date: Sun 22 Jun 2003 10:49:56 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306220049.375ba38@posting.google.com>

SynchroniCity wrote:

[older references cut]

> Fromm Rey of SynchroniCity:
>
> Having a number of experiences myself, I would agree.   You're point about
> 'the role of the observer' is an interesting
> topic.
>
> My visualization is as though the entire monadology were constructed in such
> a way that we are copies of ourselves in various dimensions simultaneously.
> Each 'iota', that is each 'position' occupies an 'imaginary' place
> (imaginary not in the psychological, but in the monadological sense).
>
> Time thereby becomes subordinate to 'place'.       And therin lies the
> 'fabric of the universe' so to say if we look at MINKowski's (Nobel Prize
> winner) multi dimensional coordinate system and his self admitted simplistic
> film like view of the universe.
>
> By viewing the "scroll of creation", each frame has us in a 'position' so
> that each iota of 'change' alters an entire paradigm, like a hall of mirrors
> where the beam reflects/reflexes according to that given 'propensity'.
>
> For me, and I'm sure many who have questionned why light is considered to be
> the fastest velocity, I "believe" that everything, 'past', 'present' and
> 'future' exist simultaneously, though for us, they do not.     And for me
> that explains why the hubble had discovered space being created faster than
> the velocity of light.
>
> In turn, that means, in my opinion, that every 'iota' of thought, word and
> deed means an 'expansion' of the 'multi verses' because it occupies 'place'
> (different than than space but not necessarily opposed to it), a sort of
> entropy.    And even if this were 'exhausible' it would still be
> 'perostiokable' that is, reconstructable as 'acts of creation'.
>
> Which now gets us back to the 'observer' because it seems to me that the
> 'relationship' between the microcosm and macrocosm according to my
> 'philosphical view' would have to be changed each and every time we merely
> observe (unless we can freeze the exact same 'light beam" and 'hall of
> mirrors' from bouncing and dancing rings around us. But I don't think
> mankind can do that in an absolute sense, only 'good enough' for our
> particular parameters to produce things for our existence).
>
> RE

Hi, I have been listening to your interesting conversation, and would
like to share a few not so commonly known points related to these
subjects, maybe as inspiration for new thoughts, if you don't mind.
(In my experience, new ideas often emerge when connecting known ideas
or facts to different ideas or facts).

I have essentially 3 points to share. The first two are about quantum
mechanics and measurement. The first of these is something that is
in principle known in physics since a long time, but still not much
recognized. The second is about some rather recent developments in
quantum mechanics, namely what is usually called "decoherence". The
third point is related to astrology and Aristotle's view of the four
elements, and especially tries to relate the elementary properties
"dry/wet" to "in/out" or maybe "subject/object", "mind/matter",
"me/world", "reality/wave function", etc.

1 - The Reason for Antiparticles

In a booklet called "Elementary Particle Physics and the Laws of
Physics"
from 1989 a lecture by Richard P. Feynman is reproduced (in memorial
of
another Nobel Prize winning scientist, P.A.M. Dirac). That lecture has
the above title "The Reason for Antiparticles".

(The beginning of Feynman's lecture can be read online at amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521658624/qid=1056270809/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-7778650-2824641?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Feynman uses a relatively simple argument to explain why antiparticles
are a necessary consequence of combining quantum mechanics with the
special theory of relativity. He essentially argues as follows:

- In scattering processes, there is always a probability amplitude
  for intermediary (virtual) particles that "fly" faster than the
  speed of light.
- According to special relativity, if there is a spacelike distance
  between two events A and B (in other words a particle exchanged
  between A and B would have to "fly" faster than light) then it
  depends on the observer whether the particle is emitted at A and
  then absorbed a B or emitted at B and then absorbed at A.
  (This is an elementary consequence of special relativity:
  Say I light a match at time 0, and you light a match at time 0
  too, but a few thousand miles from me. Then there are always
  observers (people moving relative to us) who either see me
  light the match first or see you light you the match first.)
- If the exchanged particle is charged, then one observer will see
  (say) an electron emitted at A and later absorbed at B but another
  observer would see a positron (the positively charged antiparticle
  of the electron) emitted at an earlier time at B and absorbed
  a bit later at A. Feynman put it more simply: "[...] we can say that
  one man's virtual particle is the other man's virtual antiparticle."

Feynman used this to show how antiparticles come about. But for more
philosophical discussions, I think the fact that faster than light
connections behind the scenes (i.e. not directly observable because
they only occur in virtual processes) are a direct consequence of
combining quantum mechanics and special relativity, is interesting.

The two questions that are asked at the beginning of section 4 of
the document that I mentioned in my first post,

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

come from the same angle:

> Q1 Are quantum mechanical correlations mediated by virtual particles
> behind the scenes ? Since virtual particles can "fly" faster than
> at the speed of light, this would mean that behind the scenes
> everything is connected to everything that is, was and will be.
>
> Q2 Consequently, does the result of a quantum mechanical
> measurement come about by summing over all virtual particles in
> some way ? Does that mean that reality is just a matter of will ?

The second part of the first question is maybe best explained with
an example:

- Event A: I light a candle.
- Event B: You are a light minute away from me on a space ship and
  light a candle 30 seconds after me (we are not moving relative to
  each other).
- Event C: 30 seconds afterwards (or 1 minute after event A), I
  blow out the candle.
- Now, there would be some observers who see event C before event B
  and also observers who see event B before A. Hence there is a
  connection from C back to A, from future back to past.
- In that way any event in the universe can in principle be
  connected to any other event that has happened, is happening or
  will happen.
- Or more loosely and specifically: When the candle is lit at A, it
  already "knows" how long it will burn.

The way the second question is formulated is maybe a bit misleading.
Today's quantum field theories do the following: You have a process
with some incoming particles that the experimentor prepares or
observes to be in some quantum mechanical state. From that input
possible outputs are calculated in a complicated manner by summing
over all possible intermediary states. The result is then some
probability amplitudes or in a concrete measurement the probabilities
of certain things being measured.

The idea of Q2 is to reformulate quantum field theory in terms of
definite (not probabilistic) properties of particles, which would
then necessarily be of non-local* and hence anything in the universe
would in principle influence the outcome of any experiment in quantum
mechanics. Of course the hard part would be to explicitly reformulate
quantum field theory and reproduce the statistical properties of
current theories.

* Due to the EPR paradox and Bell's inequalities.

2 - Decoherence

The buzz word "decoherence" summarizes some recent results in
*applying*
quantum mechanics. It appears from calculations and also from some
experimental results, that even minuscule interaction of a macroscopic
body with its environment can make it behave essentially classical.

What the above words mean precisely is a lot more subtle than it may
first appear. Let me elaborate:

In Schrodinger's famous thought experiment a cat is brought into a
superposition of states for "alive" and "dead". Now, in principle,
if you had two such cats in superposition states, you could have
them interact (without looking) and would find interference, would
find results that do not agree with classical (non-QM) logic.

What decoherence says now, is that you cannot do that, because,
due to the interaction of the cat with its environment (it emits
and absorbs light, for example), it will behave essentially like
a classical cat. It will sort of export its coherency into the
environment where it will be sort of mixed up in the complexity
of the world and be practically lost.

Since the cat is a living being, with probably some conscience too,
I would like to get away from the cat for the moment and note that
any macroscopic measurement device automatically decoheres what it
measures. So the simple fact that any measurement in quantum
mechanics needs an experimental apparatus that is macroscopic,
makes things already statistically classical, before a conscious
observer looks at anything.

Now it gets even more tricky: Even though the measurement apparatus
will behave statistically completely classical, one still cannot
conclude that what has been measured (say photon hit detector or not)
is already determined independently of the observer looking at the
detector. That is probably most easily seen from the following
thought experiment that was first proposed by Alain Stalder at
the moderated newsgroup sci.physics.research:

http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-A850F5.13133713012003%40news.bluewin.ch

The idea is to look at decoherence in combination with a setup
for testing the Einstein-Podolski-Rosen paradox. Two photons with
correlated polarization are emitted into opposite directions.
They fly through polarization filters into detectors on each side.
Now, Bell has shown that the experimental results predicted by
quantum mechanics would exclude any local hidden variable theories
in which the state of the photons would allow to determine what
the detectors measure. In other words, the assumption that the
measurement result of the detector is already determined before
somebody looks at it, leads to a contradiction with Bell's inequality,
with two possible exits:

- The measurement result of the detector is not determined before
  somebody consciously looks at it.
- The measurement result of the detector is independent of a
  conscious observer, and there is a hidden variable theory which
  must be non-local.

Here is a quite readable introduction to decoherence, by J.A. Wheeler
and M. Tegmark (it appeared in Scientific American):

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0101077

They say: "Even though the wave function technically never collapses
in the Everett view, it is generally agreed that decoherence produces
an effect that looks like a collapse and smells like a collapse."
In light of the above thought experiment, the general opinion might
be a bit too optimistic in this case.

Now back to Schrodinger's cat. Tegmark has also written a paper in
which he argues that the human brain, since it is very little
isolated from the environment, decoheres very quickly. In other
words, Tegmark argues that quantum mechanics plays no crucial
role in thinking. I would tend to object to that. This may be
true for a dead brain, but whether that is also true for a living
brain remains to be seen. Roger Penrose has written a book that
shows a somewhat different perspective, although some of it is
arguably speculative and disputable.

An interesting qualitative property of decoherence is that it
does remove the observer somewhat from the center that it usually
has in quantum mechanics. That leads to the suspicion that in the
end, a unified description of nature can be found that describes
experimentator, objects of experimentation and measurement devices
in the same unified way. In another post to sci.physics.research,
Alain Stalder compares this to the situation in astronomy a few
hundred years ago:

http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-84CD8B.22103722012003%40news.bluewin.ch

> This shift appears at least qualitatively similar to what
> happened in astronomy a few hundred years ago: With man at the center
> of the universe, it was no problem to predict planetary positions
> with an accuracy that was sufficient for all practical purposes, by
> summing over epicycles. In retrospect, however, people did not really
> have a clue what was going in the sky until people like Galilei and
> Newton managed to find a different and much simpler perspective.

Symbolically, quantum mechanics and ancient astronomy do something
quite similar. They add up some periodic quantities (phases of wave
functions resp. epicylces) to predict the future.

3 - Dry/Wet and In/Out

In the text "On Generation and Corruption", Aristotle has considered
what can be touched to be most elementary. He considers the four
elements
Fire, Air, Water, Earth to be combinations of "dry/wet" and
"hot/cold":

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8gc/
(see mainly chapter 2 and 3 of book II)

Fire  = hot+dry
Air   = wet+hot
Water = cold+wet
Earth = dry+cold

There are lots of immediate associations that can be made with these
abstract pairs "dry/wet" and "hot/cold". Aristotle associates dry
with hard+brittle and wet with soft+malleable. This corresponds quite
nicely with what is commonly associated in psychological astrology
with the more flexible wet signs Air and Water, which can bend and
flow psychologically, compared to the dry signs Fire and Earth which
are considered to be harder and more defined.

What I would like to argue here, is that the pair "dry/wet" can also
be identified in many respects with "in/out". Take quantum mechanics.
It is, like any scientific theory, a piece of logic, a piece of Air.
In quantum mechanics, the outcome of results is calculated in terms
of adding waves (wave function), hence in terms of Water.

What you measure however, is reality, hence Earth, and is also what
you see, Fire, because fire produces light that is needed to see
what is going on.

In other words, the outside, observed world, is dry (Earth+Fire),
whereas the inside, mental world is wet (Air+Water).

This might, for example, explain why in quantum theory there are
virtual processes (particles) that are not bound by the speed of
light, whereas everything that is measured is bound by the speed
of light. In other words, the mind is free to imagine things
moving at any speed, but real things are more restricted. This
also reminds of Plato's cave parable, hints at that our views
of reality may be quite strange projections of the underlying
reality.

There is also quite an interesting application of the identification
dry/wet with in/out in psychological astrology, that was first
proposed in this post to alt.astrology.moderated last year:

http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-B71E28.07514428092002%40news.bluewin.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/flow.html

The idea is essentially that signs that oppose each other in the
zodiac direct their drives initially into opposite directions.
The dry sign will direct its initial drive towards the outside,
the wet sign towards the inside. Take the axis Virgo-Pisces,
for example. Virgo is an Earth sign and hence dry, whereas Pisces
is a Water sign and hence wet. Now the idea is that Virgo initially
tries to sort the outside world, to make it more ordered, more
structured. That imbalance can, however, cause quite a bit of
imbalance inside Virgo's head. In order to sort the world, you
need to have lots of details in your head to compare and sort.

In contrast, Pisces appear to have quite a clear mind, as suggested,
for example, by Liz Greene in her popular book about Star Signs.
Pisces often get quite quickly bored from talking to other people,
namely as soon as these people and what they say has been categorized
internally. Pisces quite quickly recognizes the bias of others and
after a while gets bored by it. The outside lives of Pisces, however,
can often be quite disordered.

Similarly, the relation to drugs, to loosing control in the mind,
could be related quite directly to this. Pisces likes to escape the
clarity and boring structuredness in its mind whereas Virgo rather
avoids anything that increases the chaos in the head.

Any imbalance leads to counterreactions, both inside and outside of
one's head (the latter through reactions of other people).

Sorry that this post got so long. Initially I thought it could be
made shorter, but these matters are complex. Anyway, I have another
reference that I would like to recommend. However, it is written
in german, so that probably most people here will not have access
to it. It is a text by Werner Held with the title "Die 1 und die 2"
(the 1 and the 2) and deals with the problem "1/2" "in/out" etc.
from different angles, including quantum mechanics. Link:

http://people.freenet.de/soleil7/

Thanks for anybody who read all the way through here and feel free
to start new threads if you want to pick up just one of the many
aspects touched here. I guess all of it is more or less connected
to issues that mattered to C.G. Jung.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Reflections - 131072
Date: Sun 22 Jun 2003 16:30:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e@posting.google.com>

Reflections - 131072

Hi, there.

With this post I would like to start a loose series of
reflections concerning random parts of "A few new
discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
Usually there will be a strong link to astrology in these
reflections, so that it should be suitable to publish
them here at aat. If occasionally that is not the case,
I will publish to a more appropriate newsgroup and put
up a notice here (if that is allowed) so that people
who are generally interested can easily find it.

I have the discoveries document in text form. It is
126'848 bytes long, which is just a few bytes less than
17 bits (131'072). So I will toss 17 coins and then
look up in the document what sentence or sentences are
around that spot. That will give the topic for the
current reflection. In the rare case (3% chance) that
my coins point to something beyond the document, I will
interpret that as a wildcard and freely chose a topic.

About me: "Delphi Twentine" is, of course, a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder. But, since a pseudonym also has a
creation (birth) date, "Delphi Twentine" is apparently
a lot easier to understand in public, whereas anything
published under the name "Alain Stalder" reveals the
moon at the MC and hence can give sort of a "lunatic"
public appearance ("lunatic" comes from "luna"="moon").

I would like to keep the reflections on a conscious
level. In other words, I will present some background
information, make some connections more evident and
also potentially connect to new facts and ideas, but
I will try to refrain from trying to dig up new deep
secrets from the unconscious.

My inspiration for this column were Pete P's series
about stellar parans and a column by Barbara Hutzl-Ronge
that is now regularly appearing at www.astro.com, so far
only in german, though. The recent article is about a
german-speaking baker who had lost his job in a small
village at the age of 61. He then spent months sitting
on his sofa, doing nothing. His wife cut out job offers
and put them on the couch table, but nothing happened.
For fun, his nephew also brought a job offer for a job
in London. Days later, the baker called London, found
out that the owner there had a german accent, ..., and
now he is living and working in London, selling
Schwarzwalder cake even to the Queen!

Barbara Hutzl-Ronge related this transformation to
Uranus and, since the column appeared at the beginning
of June, it is also related to Gemini, including the
kid (nephew) who playfully, randomly brought new life.

In that spirit, let me start right with an exception
to the rule and let me consciously choose the sentence
that I will talk about this time...

Reflections - 131072

Quote (Section 3.9.10 Capricorn, Seasons):
> This is also a time when seeds are planted for
> new things to grow in spring.

This is inspired by the great drawing by Charles Harvey
that is published in his article about Sun-Neptune squares:

http://www.astrology-world.com/articles/harvey.html

There he has "MID-WINTER" at the bottom of the wheel,
above it the word "NEW MOON", below it "SEED". Opposite
it, at the beginning of summer, he has "MIDSUMMER",
"NOON", "FULL MOON" and "NEWSEED". (Not astonishingly,
this series here starts to grow some fruits on an
existing plant, right at the beginning of summer.)

Both Cancer and Capricorn are cardinal and female. They
show the female way of starting something new, which is
more organic than the male ways of Aries and Libra.

Water is usually passive, it flows down. You need the
pressure inside a source/spring to make it eject. Or
take the myth of Heracles fighting the Hydra in the
swamps. Heracles is bitten in the foot by a large crab,
who gets its place in the sky from Hera because it was
so obedient. Hence the creative force comes from the
mother, from nature (according to Robert Graves in the
index of "The Greek Myths", Heracles means "glory of
Hera", and Hera means "protectress"). Thus evolves the
cycle of obedience and disobedience, of internal growth
and letting things out, sharing them with others.

Since I do not want to cover anything fully or in a
very structured manner in these reflections, let me
just stop here, there are enough clues for some nice
things to consider...

Thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Re: Reflections - 131072
Date: Thu 26 Jun 2003 08:15:06 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306252208.6d497bed@posting.google.com>

Thanks a lot. This fits also with the limited experience that I have.
Except for the quincunx Pisces-Leo, where I think there is also a
strong desire back from Leo to Pisces. Pisces are at the end of the
winter. It is natural for them to dream of the summer, of not having
to do anything to survive, of not having to suffer, of just lying in
the sun and imagining things. Conversely, mutable Pisces are an ideal
projection surface for Leo, who symbolizes a young adult man who
initially likes all women, everything that is female. Pisces allow
him to project all these desires onto a single woman.

I don't know how these two views about Leo-Pisces that I can both
recognize fit together, but maybe (or probably) that is exactly
what is typical of the quincunx, that you never gain certainty or
clarity about how things "really" are. Maybe that is it, which also
makes the quincunx between Leo and Pisces a bit special, since both
are so much about imagination and illusions.

I remember Milan Kundera writing about the image that in earlier
times people were both male and female and that then god split them
into two halves that are now erring about the world in search of
their other half. A bit more profanely, I imagine myself on a beach
that is full of pebbles that are broken in half. I am holding one
pebble and am looking for one that matches. Most will simply not
fit and will be discarded immediately. Some will just fit, and I
might keep them together for a while, but then it gets just boring
and I try another one. Then I find one that first appears to be just
what I have been looking for. But no matter how often I try they
only almost fit together. I turn them around, but to no avail. Then
I see a button and push it. Maybe that will do it. But no, it still
does not fit, but now it is different, that button made something
else appear on the pebble. Maybe that can be used to make the two
things fit together, if I just try this -- and so on...

Thanks a lot again,

delphi29@excite.com

--
doovinator) wrote:
> Hey, this is really cool. I've long noted a pattern in unrequited
> romantic attraction between the "nearer" and "further" of signs in
> quincunx--the passion flows to the nearer sign in a "ring around the
> rosy" fashion, so that aries is strongly attracted to virgo, who
> couldn't care less; virgo to aquarius, who's completely blind to virgo;
> aquarius to cancer, who's stuck on a sagittarius, chasing after an
> indifferent taurus, who really likes libra, who prefers pisces, who has
> the hots for a clueless leo intent on a capricorn, but capricorn is
> stuck on a gemini who can't get scorpio off the mind, while scorpio
> moons after the original aries like a puppy dog. I've seen this pattern
> a zillion times; even in successful marriages it still plays out that
> the spouse on the "near" side is far more passionate about the
> attraction than the one commnicating to the "far" side. That there's a
> "near" and "far" (I know, occidental and oriental, but that's not how my
> brain cells THINK about it) to any aspect save conjunction and
> opposition is certainly clear upon reflection but it's a pond I've never
> thought to look in. Thanks for bringing it up.
>
> <ETH>J

Subject: Reflections - 15693
Date: Fri 27 Jun 2003 00:25:02 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8@posting.google.com>

Reflections - 15693

Hi there.

This is reflection 2 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).

Let me first quickly explain how I get from 17 coins
to a passage in the document: I shake the coins for
about 5 minutes in my hands and then let them drop
onto my carpet. Then I sort the coins top-down and
left-right (if it is not clear which is on top). For
that I use the lines on my carpet. For 5 coins, for
example, the order would be as follows:

~~~~~~(1)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~(2)~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~(3)~~~~~(4)~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~(5)~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Suppose I get HTTHH with 5 coins, where H means head
and T means tail. The last coin is worth 1 if it is
H and 0 if it is T. The next coin is worth 2 if it
is H and 0 if it is T. And so on doubling the value
for H each time. In this example, the number would
be 1+2+0+0+16 = 19. With 17 coins you can get larger
numbers, between 0 and 131'071, to be precise. That
gives me the offset in the plain text version of
the discoveries document.

This time I got TTTH'HHHT'HTHT'THHT'H or 15'693.
This points to the last "s" in "symbols" in the
following passage from Section 2.2:

> The symbol*s* for the four elements are essentially
> triangles, the ones for the hot elements point up,
> the ones for the cold elements point down. When
> superimposed, they form the hexagram which symbolizes
> the important greek view that "what is above
> corresponds to what is beneath".

Greek culture has flourished most during the second
half of the Age of Aries. Maybe that is why it shows
clear traits of Libra, sort of as a counterreaction
to too much imbalance by Aries. Yet, the abstract
beauty of Greek culture also shows some very concrete
traits. Let me touch just two of them here.

The hot elements Fire and Air are the male ones.
Their symbols are triangles that point up (Air has
additionally a horizontal line in the middle). They
represent the male trinity composed of two testicles
and a (erect) penis. Together with the two female
(cold) elements Water and Earth with their triangle
of fate that points down, the hexagram symbolizes
also quite directly sexual intercourse.

But then again, this hints at more fundamental truths
of life: During the time of the Greeks, todays zodiac
with 12 equally sized star signs got its final form.
That included the splitting of the original sign of
Scorpio into two parts: The scissors of Scorpio were
removed and became the scale pans of Libra. In that
sense, the ancient Greeks created their own sign to
balance Aries.

Libra and Scorpio are the two older adult signs, they
are the signs with the optimal balance between ability
and experience, they are the ones who have to make the
most important decisions. That is a lonely task. No
other signs are more alienated from the ground that
they came from. Signs that come earlier in the circle
or later are still or already closer to the ground.

So, the splitting up of Scorpio into two parts is a
symbol of that painful and lonely task that can only be
relieved a bit during the few moments of sexual union.
A separation occurs also during birth, so the hexagram
quite directly symbolizes the moments that astrology
considers, namely when things meet or are separated.

It appears possible that the Greeks took "what is
above corresponds to what is beneath" also quite
literally by associating different regions in Greece
with different star signs. At least that is suggested
in the following article:

http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm

The text appears to be from a book by Jean Richer
"Sacred Geography of The Ancient Greeks, Astrological
Symbolism in Art, Architecture, and Landscape", but
possibly the text is by Edmond Wollmann. (The book is
available from amazon.com, with a few pages readable
online; the french original "Geographie sacree du
monde grec" is available from amazon.fr, for example).

I am not a historian, so it is hard to judge for me
if the claim is correct. But it is interesting that in
Greek mythology the myths are essentially timeless,
but far from *placeless*. Mostly the places where the
myths happen and where the heroes live are described
quite in detail. It might be interesting to see if they
correlate in any way with the map that is proposed at
the above site. Direct link to the map:

http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/images/platoo1.jpg

That's almost it for this reflection. Since this is the
first time that I actually tossed the coins, and there
seems to be quite a direct link between what I wrote
above and my improvised "divination system", I would
like to seize the opportunity and explore the symbols in
detail in a reply to this post (to keep this post from
growing too long).

I expect to publish my reflections in the future roughly
every two weeks from the first reflection. So expect the
next one roughly in 3 weeks.

Thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Reflections - 15693
Date: Fri 27 Jun 2003 15:20:00 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4@posting.google.com>

Delphi revisited

The place in the center of the proposed Greek zodiac
is, of course, Delphi, the place in the mountains of
Greece where Apollon's famous oracle was located.
Similarly, where I live, in Switzerland, is a small
country in the mountains, in the middle of Europe,
with Italy in the south, Germany in the north, France
in the west and Austria in the east.

In greek mythology, Zeus one day let two eagles fly,
one from the east and one from the west. They met at
the navel of the world, in Delphi. Similarly, let me
take you on a symbolic flight on one of the eagles,
from Switzerland to the city I live, and zoom in on
my carpet and the symbols on the coins that I use.

Maybe not astonishingly, Switzerland has no clear
founding date, except a mythological one. According
to the legend, three representants of three small
regions in central Switzerland met early in the
morning on one of the first days of August in 1291
and put up 3 fingers each to make an oath to stick
together in unison agains Habsburg. That moment with
3 x 3 = 9 fingers up in the air clearly says fate.

(There is a document from September 1291 that states
roughly the same intent of unity, but in all history
books that I have seen, it is considered merely a
prolongation of already existing contracts, so the
"true" origins of Switzerland remain unknown.)

Let me take a look at the chart for August 1st, 1291
(1st because that is the day that the Swiss national
holiday is celebrated by lighting fires and firework):

The most striking thing are all the planets in Leo
and Libra. Sun, Mercury, Mars, Uranus and northern
node are in Leo; moon and Neptune are in Libra.
That gives a strong link to Delphi, because of the
sun god Apollon (Leo) and of the balance coming from
the two eagles and the most important Greek oracle.
Saturn in Aries, Venus right at the transition between
Gemini and Cancer (like the sun in my first reflection
post), and last, but not least, a retrograde Pluto in
Aquarius, are certainly interesting too.

I live in the state of Zurich, which also contains
the largest city of Switzerland, Zurich. Zurich's
animal is the lion, a rather frienly and calm lion,
unlike most lions around Europe who are often quite
fierce animals, often also with two tails or heads.
The city I live in is called "Adliswil". Since I
have no information about its founding date, let me
look at its flag: It has half an eagle above half a
millwheel (see www.adliswil.ch). The name is composed
of "Adlis", which is related to "Adler", the german
word for eagle, and of "wil" which means "Weiler",
a small village and comes from "weilen", to rest,
so Adliswil could be translated as "where the eagle
rests" - Delphi.

I had the idea for my reflection posts the same day
that I posted the first reflection. So it was not
planned, just like Zeus does not plan and rather
trusts his overview and luck. That fits quite well
with Jupiter (Zeus) who is at the moment in the
middle of Leo (sun, Apollon). But Neptune, who is
currently in opposition in Aquarius, also, but more
subtly, gets his share in:

I shake the 17 coins for about 5 minutes. This may
not make much of a difference for people unaware
of modern physics, but it does - let me explain.
There is a fundamental imprecision in any way of
measuring where the coins are and how fast they
move. If you note down precisely where the coins
are before I start shaking and then measure as
precisely as fundamentally possible how my hands
move (but without looking inside my hands), then if
I only shake the coins for a short time, you have
in principle a good chance to predict where they
will drop on my carpet.

But if I shake them for a long time (in my "gut
feeling" as a physicist, I guess 5 minutes are good
enough), then it becomes fundamentally undetermined
where the coins are and hence where they will fall.
In quantum mechanics, all possibilities that may
emerge are described by the wavefunction, which has
the symbol Psi, the Greek letter that looks exactly
like the symbol of Neptune. Thus Neptune has, so to
speak, smoothly gained complete freedom over the
outcome of my tossing of the coins.

But since I can still consciously choose what to
associate with the corresponding passage in the
discoveries document, some personal freedom (Jupiter
in Leo) has luckily been preserved.

There are two eagles, one from the east and the
other one from the west. Similarly, my system is
a combination of eastern synthetic thought and
western analytical thought. The I Ching consists
of tossing coins or splitting yarrow stalks to
get one of 64 symbols (and a transition) that aim
to accurately catch the essential properties of
a situation/question.

(Side remark: Jung has written a foreword to the
english translation of Richard Wilhelm's famous
german translation of the I Ching. There he used
a trick that is similar to what I am doing without
conscious intention here: He asked the system (the
I Ching in his case) to explain itself. He got
hexagram 50, Ting, THE CALDRON, fire above wood.
I interpret this as also related to the invention
of fire, that allowed people to cook food, to
transform nature for the first time. Link to the
foreword: http://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm).

The subsequent analytical association is more of
a western kind. Thus Neptune seems to subliminally
have brought in an Aquarian fusion of east and west.

The coins that I use are swiss 5 cent coins
(diameter 17 mm, thickness ca. 1 mm). They are
made of 92% copper (Venus), 6% Aluminum and 2&
Nickel. The head shown on the coin is the one
of "Helvetia" who on larger coins is shown with
her shield and spear, making her maybe most
closely an Athena. (Link to Swiss coins:
http://www.swissmint.ch/e/products/index.shtml)

Of course, I do not literally have the intention to
create a "new Delphi". My intentions are much more
modest: Show that everything in life is full of
symbols that correspond very well with anything that
happens. (Interestingly, Jean Richer starts his book
with the following quote from Heraclitus: "The God
whose oracle is at Delphi, does not speak, does not
hide, he shows by signs"). Secondly, I just wanted
to find a means to express my thoughs in a regular
fashion. That was maybe inspired by how Michal
Viewegh starts his postmodern novel "Bringing up
Girls in Bohemia" that I bought this spring in
Prague: He cites a female Czech writer who says
roughly "it does not matter in which order you tell
a story, you can start anywhere". That seems
certainly true for how women tell stories and also
maybe best understand them...

Thanks for anybody sticking through this lengthy
and rather complex post,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Reflections - 131072
Date: Sat 28 Jun 2003 10:10:08 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306272240.4ee7b8fa@posting.google.com>

What I like about usenet newsgroups and the fact
that they are archived by search engines, is that
this creates a repository of human experience. In
astrology books, the experience of a particular
astrologer is usually mostly available in
transformed form: The actual experience has already
been replaced by a theory that fits the astrologers
experience. For me as a scientist, it would be much
more helpful to have a catalog of all astrologers
experiences, so that I could find the best fitting
theory to them all.

So, in the intent of contributing a small step in
creating such a database here "in the matrix", let
me share my personal experience.

me  1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich, 03:12 UTC
her 1965-03-05 ??:?? Ostrava(?) CZ

Note that I am using ISO notation for dates and time,
as suggested recently by Martin Lewicky on aam. Larger
units come first, so the order is YYYY-MM-DD HH-MM.

There are several quincunxes, but only one that does
not involve collective planets (Uranus and up), namely
the quincunx between the suns, which is less than one
degree from exact. There is a yod (two quincunxes from
one planet) from my moon to her Pluto and Neptune.
Depending on when in the day she was born, there is
also a quincunx between her moon and my Pluto or my
Uranus (or both).

It started in spring 1982. It was her who made the
more active steps. I was in love, very much so, but
also somehow incapable to actively do much in her
direction. She switched schools to a different city
in 1983. We met a few more times (on parties or so
with others from the same school class). I guess she
gave up in 1984 when she closed her eyes and wanted
me to kiss her. At that moment, I still remembered that
she had kissed another guy the last time I had met
her. I, of course, wanted to kiss her. But as a fixed
Leo in that moment, I was not prepared for it, still
a bit angry at her. I guess from her point of view,
as the most mutable of all signs, this must have been
an unimaginable way of how things are. Anyway, the
moment passed (it was just at the end of the party
when everybody was leaving), and we never met again.

In 1987, when I was already at university, I met a
few folks from my old class. After that meeting,
it was in July, just before the holidays, I fell in
love with her again, even though she was not actually
there. I noticed that I could feel her very strongly
by looking into the direction in which she lived then.
In the evening, when I guess she went to bed, I could
feel her first less strongly, but then strongly again
if I laid down too, or just tilted my head into a
horizontal position. In August I called her in the
evening, after I had been for three weeks in France
on holidays (and still been able to feel her in the
direction of Switzerland). After a few sentences, I
suddenly felt like talking to a wall. I naively tried
to invite her to cinema or something, but she said no.
I said that I wanted to meet her, but she said no to
that again. She also said that she now had other
friends (in a reproachful manner), probably she had
a boyfriend at that time.

I then (very naively again) waited for us to meet by
chance. I imagined that if the feeling was so strong,
that then we would meet again, that it was sort of
predetermined. In the summer of 1990, things felt
like something was about to happen. At the university
cafeteria (ETH Zurich Honggerberg, to be precise) I
noticed one day around noon a girl who I thought must
be her. I approached her, but then quickly noticed
her blue eyes (they would have had to be brown). I
asked her if she was <first name>. She asked me if
I meant <full name>. It turned out that they had been
in school together, in the school that I mentioned
she had switched to in 1983. (Side remark regarding
Leo-Capricorn: From the same public data source that
I got the 1965 birth date, I also got the information
about what the people in that school planned to study.
The girl I had met at the cafeteria was very probably
studying architecture and there was only one girl in
the list who intended that. As far as I remember, her
birth date was in Capricorn, although I do not remember
if there was a quincunx to my sun.)

A few days later, I felt as if she had left the
country. I could still feel her, but it was clear
that she was no longer around. The Iron Curtain had
just fallen a few months earlier. As I know now, she
had roughly around that time returned to the Czech
Republic after the Velvet Revolution.

8 years later, after making a dissertation at the
IBM Research Laboratory and after also 1.5 years in
Montreal, Canada, one night at the end of January,
just shortly after Neptune had entered Aquarius,
I finally decided to call her sister who I could
find in the phone directory. She was very friendly
and gave me her sister's phone number in Prague. The
next evening I called her. A child picked up the phone.
As I know now, this was almost certainly her son.
I got the mother on the phone. I told her I love
her (actually for the first time), and that I can
feel her. She tells me that she is married.

Let me cut things a bit short. I called her sister
again about a week or so later, then made one more
call to Prague where she told me that she did not
love me (when I asked her) and also that she never
loved me, again in reply to me asking. I sent an
e-mail to her sister, where I also mentioned that
I could feel her sister directly across large distances.
She replied with a few improvisations (she is a
Sagittarius, and the older sister). There she also
mentioned astrology.

Through that I bought Liz Greene's Star Signs for
Lovers again, and this time it clicked. I realized
how astrology could work, by collective emotional
feedback to individuals, that makes people as Jung
put it "free to do gladly that which I must do".
In February 2001 I had the crucial idea that star
signs have a simple structure. Then I wrote down
my discoveries, also as part of the process of
handling the complexity that had emerged from a
more analytical take on astrology.
[I am absolutely sure that the sun was in Aquarius when
I had the idea, almost certain it was already February,
and was maybe certain of the latter as I wrote the above.
There are no documents or things I remember around that
time that could further narrow down the moment.
I wrote the discovery disclosures and the discoveries
document on a turquoise clamshell Mac iBook that ceased
to exists shortly after finishing the discoveries.pdf;
the review.pdf was written on a MacBook with MacOS X.]

Finally, the Saturn-Pluto opposition, paired with
Pluto transiting my and her Uranus and Pluto at a
square, has helped to weaken the connection. But
maybe the most important part of that is that now
the fated complex of making the discoveries is no
longer between us.

There I am now. I don't know what she does now, who
she is with. Seems that there is no chance to get
together. Is there a morale ? Should Pisces (or in
general the one at the incoming quincunx) insist
more, give up less easily ? Or should Leo try more
to do a direct approach in the real world ? Both ?

I don't know. For an outsider, I may appear like
nothing at all had happened, a bit like Soren
Kierkegaard describes the situation that Cordelia
ends up in Kierkegaard's "Diary of a Seducer" that
he published as part of his philosophical book
"Either/Or". German astrologer Thomas Ring
(http://www.astro.com/h/ring_g.htm) says that the
quincunx was first calculated by Kepler and calls
it the "Sehnsuchtsaspekt" from "longing" or also the
"Tantalusaspekt", from the guy in Greek mythology
who is standing in water but when he bends down to
drink, the water goes away or when he reaches up to
grab some fruit, the leaves retract. He also makes
the connection with some wishes, like wishing to
have a house with a garden if one lives in an
apartment in the city. Then with 60 one fulfills
the dream, but then it feels "What am I doing here?",
"Actually I don't need that any more.".

Well, from my point of view, all I can say in the end
is that if I had the choice, I would still always very
much prefer to be with a Pisces girl instead of with a
Capricorn. Maybe this is part of the problem, maybe
Pisces in the end prefer Libra over Leo ?

Thanks for the inspiration,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: The Matrix
Date: Sun 29 Jun 2003 11:10:00 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0306282354.2097bc4b@posting.google.com>

Sharyn wrote:
> I was updating the Weekly Article feature on the aat site (this one is about
> the current close approach of Mars to earth) and found Richard Giles, an
> Australian astrologer who's written some interesting articles. In
> particular, I wanted to share with you was about the movie, The Matrix, and
> it's sequals. I found it fascinating and thought provoking, particularly the
> movie release date charts, and the comparisons of the actors' charts with
> both the movie and generational influences.
> http://www.astrologycom.com/matrix1.html

Interesting article. There is so much material
available online about the matrix that it may
appear almost futile to start analyzing. So
let me present a few general observations, in
the intent to provide an open frame for future
specific astrological analysis.

German astrologer Thomas Ring was born with a
Neptune-Pluto conjunction in Gemini opposite his
sun in Sagittarius. I have already proposed that
much in the matrix is related to this axis (see
my recent post to aam (at that time still under
my real name)). But instead of getting lost in
analysis again, let me just cite how Thomas Ring
describes how he got into astrology while lying
under a linden tree in a prisoners camp in
England during WWI:

> On a quiet September day, I lay dozing on my back under one
> of those linden trees when something floated down from above
> in spiral revolutions. [...]
> My mind was not exactly set on contemplatively examining the
> wisdom of nature that provides a globule intended for
> procreation with a handle and furnishes it with a curved
> leading edge. Beholding the spiral, however, hit home like
> lightning. This was the solution, only the other way around,
> rising up against gravity! My cyclical system may have been
> valid for repetitions - if one considered things from above or
> below, the same principles repeated. But viewed from the side,
> the active nature of the I, the spontaneous change of the
> respective goal and interchange of other-nesses started to show
> to advantage.

(Very reluctantly I had to abbreviate here; the full
story is almost certainly revealing for any astrologer:
http://www.thomas-ring-stiftung.de/english/index.htm).

In the matrix, there is "bullet time", when rotating
bullets are slowed down by people capable of bending
the laws of the matrix. Here is my frame:

1 - The Matrix - Fire - see, become aware
2 - Matrix Reloaded - Air - possibilities, choice
3 - Matrix Revolutions - Water - fate, decision

(I associate 1-2-3-4 with Fire-Air-Water-Earth for
many symbolic reasons; see my discoveries document
or another recent post to aam; or wait until I get
to talk about it here another time).

In terms of bullet time, 1 corresponds to becoming
conscious of the bullet, of its revolving laws,
2 corresponds to looking at the bullet from all
possible angles, in order to find the best way to
escape repetition ad infinitum, 3 corresponds to
the heavy task of choosing the new point of view.

For 1, maybe one of the articles in the philosophy
section of www.thematrix.com is most revealing,
namely the one that relates the matrix to Gnosticism
and Buddhism:
http://www.thematrix.com/rl_cmp/new_phil_wakeup.html

For 2, I would prefer not to indicate any links, so
as not to influence anybody's choice of looking at
things. Let me just say that Neo ends his crucial
conversation with the architect of the matrix with
the words "The problem is choice".

For 3: After the credits of "Matrix Reloaded", if
you are willing to wait for at least 5 minutes after
the movie actually ends, there is a trailer for part
three, "Matrix Revolutions". One of the people who
I was watching the movie with, a woman, a bit later
summarized it as "the same in the rain" -- rain is
digitized water ;).

The next paragraph might turn out to be a major spoiler
for the fans, so skip it if you wish:

There is an interesting twist why maybe the machines
might need humans to decide, namely because machines
are programmed such that they are not allowed to kill
people. In that sense, the machines might only need Neo
to make one final human decision. (By Ken Mondschein:
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm)

delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Reflections - 39773
Date: Tue 8 Jul 2003 00:55:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307071054.30dabe41@posting.google.com>

Reflections - 39773

Hi there.

This is reflection 3 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).

For an introduction to this series, see these posts
from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com

The coins said THTT'HHTH'HTHT'HHHT'H = 39773, which
points to section 3.8 Astrological Inheritance:
> Mother and child form essentially a unit, because
> the unborn child lives inside a world which is
> essentially the mother. The father is emo*t*ionally
> connected to both of them. He and the mother met
> at a given date which influences their common fate.

In hypothesis H4 (page 1), I suggest that emotional
connections between men and women are typically
stronger than between men and men or women and women.
If that is so, and also applies to unborn girls and
boys, the father would typically already before birth
be connected more strongly to a daughter than to a son.
If that was the case, one might also expect to see a
stronger correlation between the birth charts of the
father and a daughter than between father and a son.

But, then again, almost all of the complexity of the
world goes into moments of birth, so the above idea
might overlook some important details (the moon is
in Libra now, so this is maybe not unlikely).

Instinctively, I connected the passage this time with
the "butterfly dream" of Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu
who lived around the same time as Aristotle:

> Once Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly,
> a fluttering butterfly who felt at ease and happy
> and knew nothing of Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he woke
> up: Then he was again really and truly Chuang Tzu.
> Now I do not know whether Chuang Tzu dreamt that
> he was a butterfly or whether the butterfly dreamt
> that it was Chuang Tzu, even though there is
> certainly a difference between Chuang Tzu and the
> butterfly. This is how the change of things is.

Chuang Tzu also describes how difficult it is for two
people who disagree about a specific issue to find out
who is right: If they ask someone else, that third
person might agree with one of them or have a third
opinion, none of which is really conclusive.

This brings me to how consensus can come about, in
general and (hence) also when it comes to chosing
a birth date for a child. All signs have different
views, but maybe the most basic difference is
between dry and wet elements:

The wet elements Air and Water are softer, more
flexible, more adaptive, more fluid. To them, the
world is rather the result of a mutual agreement
than a reality that exists independently of them.
Gemini represents a child who plays with all the
different sides of the world, then, as Libra, learns
to balance them and then unifies them into a coherent
view of the world as an old man, Aquarius. Cancer
searches for the right thing to do in a situation,
Scorpio feels other people deep to find a consensus
that is optimal for a community of a certain size,
and finally the oldest woman of the zodiac, Pisces,
recognizes that at a global scale, different choices
often only yield different results, but not
necessarily better or worse ones.

The dry elements Fire and Earth are harder, more
rigid and defined. They generally agree that what
can be seen and touched is the same for practically
everybody. The birth date and time does not include
everything, two people born at the same day and
time can, for example, have different eye colors
that are inherited in a different way (genetically
in chromosomes in the cells of the body).

There are people who actually mix senses. When they
see something, they also smell and hear something
that is related to what they see. I remember how a
woman, who mixes senses, described on TV how she first
realized how different her perception of the world is:
She went into a perfume store and asked for a blue,
round perfume. Not astonishingly, they fetched her a
perfume in a blue, round bottle; she tried some and
then exclaimed: "But it smells white!"

Since dry and wet are again two opposites, it seems
again impossible to tell them apart, to say that
either dry or wet signs are right, except to maybe
say that it is at least hard to think or see anything
that is outside the Greek system of thought spanned
by all 4 elements and their refinements...

According to my hypotheses (H14b, H15-18, H28b), the
four young signs (Aries to Cancer) consist mainly of
the two dry elements Fire or Earth, adult signs balance
dry and wet elements, whereas old signs (Sagittarius
to Pisces) are mainly wet, Air and Water. This hints
at a general development during life where one learns
more flexibility etc.

Finally, here are a couple of facts about Jean Richer
and his book "Sacred Geography of the Ancient Greeks"
that I mentioned last time: According to amazon.fr,
the first (french) edition of the book was published
in 1967. Jean Richer was born 1915-02-04 16:00 Paris,
but the birth time is uncertain (source unknown):
http://www.lecielinterieur.com/esp_astro/bases_donnees/bdd/bdd_R.htm

Hope this was not too complex this time (Libra moon,
Cancer sun) and thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Alternate Planetary System?
Date: Tue 8 Jul 2003 00:55:08 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307071144.7b7065d8@posting.google.com>

Pete P wrote:
> Maybe the question was raised because, if a Jupiter-sized planet is all
> our hardware can detect, then there may be terrestrial sized planets
> further in and one of them *might* support a civilisation similar to
> ours that has developed a philosophy similar to our astrology. In fact,
> IMO, the odds are stacked in its favour...
> And if such a civilisation exists and *has* developed such an "ology"
> ( and who's to say it doesn't, and hasn't, in one planetary system or
> another? ), then it's an interesting concept.
> We have our mathematics; our physics; our religious systems and our
> astrology. Citizens of other solar systems aren't likely to share them.
> --
> Pete

I have always been fascinated by the thought
how different a civilization in a different
solar system might be. Recently I had read
an article (SciAm?) where it was argued that
there are probably not many solar systems
similar to ours, with a Jupiter like planet
at about the same distance. Now there seems
to be a similar system right "around the block"
(94 light years compared to about 4 light years
for the nearest star), and that announced
during a Jupiter-Neptune opposition...

In the meantime, I have also fantasized about
making charts from other planets in this solar
system, say a chart for the place and time the
first probe landed on Mars. Such a chart would
have two moons (Phobos and Daimos), no Mars,
but Earth. In a chart from Jupiter, the inner
planets would maybe not say much, because they
would be quite close to the sun, at least the
many moons around Jupiter could say more. Venus
rotates the other way round than all other
planets except Pluto, so houses would change
the other way during a day, which is about 243
earth days on Venus, more than a Venus year
(225 days). Uranus's rotational axis lies
almost in the ecliptic, so defining a spring
equinox (and hence a start of the year) might
be difficult to do. Stellar parans appear much
more robust to such differences.

Is there maybe software that allows to look at
the sky from planets in the solar system ? That
might be enough for some basic stellar parans,
like raising/setting with sun or with Earth ;)

delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Re: Alternate Planetary System?
Date: Wed 9 Jul 2003 17:35:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307090637.8907e3@posting.google.com>

Astrology Cycles wrote:
> Sorry this is very vague but the short answer is 'yes'.
>
> Most astronomy software will do it.  And some of the different astrology
> programs will - solar fire I think does it?
>
> Sorry I can't be more specific, but if you look for astrology software on
> the web they'll list this sort of capability.

Thanks for the answer. I google a lot anyway, so
that was not where I was heading with my question,
at least not only: I mainly wanted to show up some
new possibilities of looking at old things from
a few new angles, sort of as inspiration, for
anybody to follow up or not, at their discretion.

Astrologicially, there appear to be quite a few
indications for doing this at the moment:
Uranus and Mars are in Pisces, the sign that has
the task to imagine all the things that will be
realized by Aries and then the other signs in
the next "year" (in about 2010 for Uranus). Saturn
has just very recently left Gemini, so there is
some of the quickness and looking at things from
all kinds of angles to catch up. The recent
Saturn-Pluto oppositions had to destroy some
things for good. New things are required to fill
the gap, maybe not exactly to replace what had
to go (which in some cases is impossible), but to
ensure that nothing had to go in vain. Finally,
my pseudonym "Delphi Twentine" and also my
discoveries document (and this newsgroup too)
have Pluto in Sagittarius, so they are part of a
new generation that shoots its arrows into many
directions, for anybody to follow or catch or,
else, to let them sink back into unconsciousness.

Concretely, I am not an expert on astrology or
astronomy software, I have just looked around a
little bit. Regarding charts, is there software
that really allows to look at things from the
point of view of, say, Mars ? Will the spring
point be defined based on spring on Mars or
still on spring on Earth ? Will the two moons
of Mars be available ? Is it possible to choose
a place on Mars (by coordinates) ? Again, I am
not specifically asking for answers for me, but
if somebody by chance (or hard work) has a good
recommendation, I would like to hear it too.

For stellar parans from, say, Mars, an astronomy
program that allows to put the observer on a
defined spot on the surface and then shows stars
and planets would almost be sufficient to calculate
a few basic parans. From Earth, I am even doing
this with a piece of shareware for Palm OS
(Planetarium: http://www.aho.ch/pilotplanets).

Stellar parans could even be used from different
solar systems; constellations would be different,
but as long as the solar systems are not too far
away, the same stars would be visible. Maybe one
could even interpret the relation of the stars
symbolically: There will probably be solar systems
from which there is a conjunction between two
stars (say Spica and Wega, for example). Maybe
it would be possible to find correlations between
which kinds of planets a solar system has and
between the "aspects" between the fixed stars, as
they are seen from that solar system. Pushing it
again a bit further, if some systems are in the
future found to carry life, maybe one could find
some correlations in the fixed stars that are an
indication of life ? Of course this is quite
speculative at the moment, but basically it is
just what astrology usually does, applied to a
somewhat different scale. And considering how far
the stars are away, a few more hints as to where
to fly to could even be of great practical value.

Maybe it would already be interesting to look at
how the stars look like from that star HD70642
that was found to have a Jupiter like planet.
Stellar catalogs typically contain the distance
and direction of the stars (and their brighness):
transforming from polar to rectangular coordinates,
changing the origin from sun to HD70642 and then
converting to polar coordinates and plotting would
already yield the sky as seen from HD70642. Maybe
I will do this sometime, maybe someone else will,
maybe doing so will yield nothing interesting,
maybe beautiful new discoveries could be made, or
maybe not. Sometimes (especially with Uranus and
Mars in Pisces) I think is more beautiful to leave
things as possibilities, in order not to run the
danger to destroy them.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Alternate Planetary System?
Date: Wed 9 Jul 2003 17:35:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307090638.30228702@posting.google.com>

> RM: Yes there is (or there was about 2 years ago). One of the
> astrologers on aamod made such a program.
> Perhaps a search of old aamod posts will bring it up; although I'm not
> sure what keywords would be best to use.
> There is also the NASA site where you can look at any body from any
> other body, for any time.
> I forget the URL, but it's on my website "All astrology on the net".
>
> Ray

Thanks Ray. Here are the links:

http://users.chariot.net.au/~astrocom/index2.html
http://space.jpl.nasa.gov

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Initiators, refiners and systematizers
Date: Sat 12 Jul 2003 10:35:08 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307112232.15b3a476@posting.google.com>

Thanks for your post. Let me try to connect first
to a few things that I know about divisions of
circles (especially the year), before replying a
bit more concretely to what you wrote.

In section 3.9 of a document that I wrote under
my real name, Alain Stalder, I relate two things
to the three thirds of the year/zodiac: life
(child to adult to old person; as you do in your
post) and, consequently, connections to an
increasing number of people. Link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

To the ancient Greeks, a division of any cycle by
pi=3.141592654... would have appeared most harmonic,
because that is the number that relates the
circumference of a circle (cycle) to its diameter.
I think the division of the year into two nested
cycles (4 seasons with 3 months each, or three
"sections" with 4 elements each), is a compromise,
because it contains both numbers around pi, the
one below it (3) and the one above it (4).

It appears that older divisions of the solar and
lunar cycle, that were closer to the natural cycles,
were more of a kind "3+something smaller". In ancient
Egypt, according to the web site by Vern Beaumont,
http://home.clara.net/beaumont/egypt/calendar.htm,
there were 3 seasons (of 4 lunar months each):
inundation, winter and summer. Since 12 lunar months
only give about 354 days, the remaining about 11
days were apparently compensated every 2 or 3 years
by a "leap month". Older divisions of the lunar
cycle also essentially had 3 phases, with the one
around full moon symbolizing pregnancy, but in
addition had sort of a short "seeding phase" when
the moon was not visible at all.

That reminds me of what Robert Graves wrote in
section 62.1 of "The Greek Myths" (section about
Zeus chasing and getting Nemesis/Leda through
various transformations, including to a swan):
> Nemesis was the Moon-goddess as Nymph (see 32.2) and,
> in the earliest form of the love-chase myth, she
> pursued the sacred king through his seasonal changes
> of hare, fish, bee, and mouse - or hare, fish, bird
> and grain of wheat - and finally devoured him.

Interestingly, in both variants, there is one of the
four things that is smaller, (bee / grain of wheat),
with the grain of wheat being literally a seed...

Some concrete remarks:

In broad terms, I agree with your description; in
some details, I am not so sure.

I associate "refining" with mutable signs, the last
of the circle within each season. Hence I am a bit
sceptical whether "refiners" is the best fitting
description for the four middle signs, although I
can see some ring to it. I note also that in the
first four signs, there are two cardinal signs, in
the second four, there are two fixed signs, and in
the last four, there are two mutable signs - which
hints maybe also at some level of correspondence
between the three "sections" of the year with the
three characters (cardinal/fixed/mutable) in each
of the four seasons.

If I associate consciousness with the development
from child to adult to old person, I notice that
initially children have no consciousness (in my
personal recollection, my first conscious memories
date to about the age of 3 to 4). But maybe I am
mixing things up a bit - no memory of consciousness
does probably not imply no consciousness, although
a certain level of remembering and reflection is
probably necessary for consciousness.

You may be interested in Howard Sasportas' book
about astrological houses (The Twelve Houses,
Harper Collins, 1985), where he describes houses
also quite in detail as developments during a life.

Thanks again,
delphi29@excite.com

--
Ilya Shambat wrote:
> Each turn of the spiral consists of three stages. Initiating, refining
> and systematization.The astrological model describes this in the
> qualities allotted to the first four signs, the second four signs and
> the last four signs, respectively. Each of the four corresponds in turn
> to a dimension of human existence; a dimension also known as an element.
> These patterns are hardly limited to astrology and can be observed,
> using any number of models, in all things human.
>
> The distinction among the three stages is contained most fundamentally
> in basic consciousness. The initiators have consciousness that is
> integral and predetermined; a single self-centered consciousness, a
> spark of insight that is a direct outgrowth of the previous stage. The
> refiners have a consciousness that is self-directed; a consciousness
> that is custom-made for themselves and abrades against the context that
> it inhabits. The systematizers have consciousness that is one with that
> of the context and has no independent self. These three forms of
> consciousness work to instill, refine and then consummate to completion
> each cycle. The successful turn of the spiral propagates, refines
> through experience and then creates a new and a better blueprint. The
> unsuccesful turn of the spiral fails at any point in the process to
> accomplish this work.
 [...]
> http://www.geocities.com/ilya_shambat/astrology.htm

Subject: Transformation
Date: Tue 15 Jul 2003 21:19:14 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307151119.24d168e@posting.google.com>

Transformation

2003-07-12 Pluto-Uranus square

2 days later, Robert Graves, Introduction of The Greeek Myths
all in one: sacrifice of old king and instoration of new
(twin) king at one or both of the solistices, Harvey's
seeding points, seed, animals for three seasons, three
moon phases, transition from female age of Taurus to male
age of Aries, role of Hera/Juno (month June) among Greek
gods, Delphi and the omphalos (web, net, fabric of fate),
during age of Taurus: Capricorn (old king) before winter
solistice, Leo (young king) after summer solistice

Delphi, female sex, gorge, replacement of female oracle
by more male one, anima

discoveries, hard to estimate, but possibly important
contribution to other transition from a female to a
male age (Pisces to Aquarius), hence bound to similar
symbols, female realm gives away some things that they
have grown tired of maintaining (cf. Rhea and Zeus in
Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate"), but will again
keep the most important (deep/heavy/female/water+earth)
secrets under their protection

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Reflections - 55870
Date: Wed 16 Jul 2003 00:05:00 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307151303.1087326f@posting.google.com>

Reflections - 55870

Hi there.

This is reflection 4 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).

For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com

This time I tossed the coins 2003-07-15 21:33 (19:33 UTC)
and got THHT'HHTH'TTTH'HHHH'T = 55870, which points
to 3.9.7 Libra, passage about life:
> Adults have to learn to understand their partner and
> other people. But, especially in a love couple, complete
> transparency is often not desired because some beautiful
> illusions might then be destroyed too. Adults also strive
> for continuity, for not letting every new and exciting
> thing divert them from their plans, es*p*ecially since
> adults have to solve the most complex tasks.

Let me try this time to derive as much as possible
from "first principles", from my basic hypotheses
about the signs of the zodiac as different stages
during the transition between different elements.

Libra is the middle Air sign. According to H14b and
H17a, it is composed of almost equal amounts of Fire
and Water. It represents a cloud (air) in the middle
of the storm when there is both lightning (fire) and
rain (water), see H17b.

Let me first focus on the last sentence in the passage
that I cited above:

"Adults": According to H14b, the four signs in the
middle of the zodiac circle balance two elements.
In analogy to the circle of life, these signs also
represent adults, hence H28b.

"strive for continuity": The timely order of signs in
the zodiac is defined. Hence, even though Libra has
to balance two elements, there is also a development
during Libra's life towards Aquarius, towards more
water. In the image of the cloud (H17b), rain falls
down continously, hence "continuity" (H17f).

"for not letting every new and exciting thing divert
them": Again in the image of the cloud, at young age
Libra is more lightning, quicker, more random, less
stable, gets diverted too quickly by what can be seen
(seeing requires light, fire).

"from their plans": The middle Air sign, since it
balances the extremes of the sign before it and of
the sign after it, represents the archetype of the
element Air. Air is about abstract, logical thinking
(because air is invisible, compared to fire, which
is about visual imagination because fire produces
light that is necessary for seeing). A plan needs
logic, needs a combination of statements of the form
"If I do X, then Y will happen". (It needs both
reflection and a clear goal).

"es*p*ecially since adults have to solve the most
complex tasks": Young people lack experience; old
people have already lost some of their abilities.
It is up to adults to balance the two extremes,
to take both sides into account and find a solution
that does more good than harm. A thunderstorm at
its fullest is more complex than one that has just
started with some lightning or is about to end by
continously falling rain.

A few quick remarks about the first two sentences:
They can be analyzed and connected back to the same
simple hypotheses that I presented above. For example,
"transparency": Aquarius is water, which is transparent,
more transparent than a flame that changes its
appearance quickly (Fire, Gemini), hence H17e.

This time, I tried to keep things as simple as
possible, which maybe made things also a bit dry,
although the moon is in Aquarius now.

Aquarius is also about teaching as opposed to
learning, so how about a "challenge": Think about
a statement that you relate with conviction with
Libra and then present it here, and I will try
to "derive" it as well as possible from hypotheses
and statements in my discoveries document - maybe
with help from others here ? Or, if you prefer,
you might also want to "derive" things yourself,
or maybe try this entirely in private, or maybe
just ignore these ideas...

Anyway, thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Month-of-Birth and Person's Lifespan
Date: Wed 16 Jul 2003 07:55:58 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology,de.alt.astrologie,alt.jyotish,sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307152155.1e1be6e2@posting.google.com>

Bobby Bryant wrote:
> It's not apparent from either of those links that "Early-Life Factors"
> means anything akin to "season-of-birth-effects", though perhaps you have
> the advantage of actually having read the book.
>
> But it's hardly surprising.  Lots of diseases are seasonal, and early
> exposure to disease could have a devastating effect on lifespan.
>
> --
> Bobby Bryant
> Austin, Texas

Hi there.

I am a physicist -- about a couple of years ago, I
saw a report on CNN where it was reported that people
born in March are more likely to become schizophrenic
later in life than people born at other times of the
year. I did not follow up, so I do not know whether
that claim was sufficently backed by scientific
evidence or not. But let's assume it was for the
moment.

An astrologer would probably say that this was because
most of the month of March is in the star sign of
Pisces, which is associated also with schizophrenia.
More down to earth, one would probably rather suspect
that at the end of winter the mother is likely a bit
depressed, which might influence the birth experience
of the child sufficiently to lead to problems later
in life.

Now, how could these two hypotheses be distinguished
experimentally ? Well, I suggest to make a study with
two groups of people, one group of people born in
March on the northern hemisphere (and still living
there) and the other group also born in March, but
on the southern hemisphere (where Pisces is still in
March, but the end of winter is in September). Plus
two control groups from each hemisphere.

delphi29@excite.com

--
PS: Since this my first post to most groups here, here
is some information about me: I have proposed a number
of specific hypotheses for testing astrology and also
posted a number of times to different groups, ranging
from astrology to philosophy and physics (mostly to
moderated newsgroups, mostly alt.astrology.moderated,
alt.astrology.tropical and sci.physics.research). Just
search at groups.google.com for "exactphilosophy"...

Subject: Re; Satyrn
Date: Wed 16 Jul 2003 20:32:21 CEST
Newsgroups: de.alt.astrologie
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307161032.1524b9b3@posting.google.com>

Kalle Sichler <icho@online.de> schrieb am 23.6.03:
> Am 23.6. um 9:55 schrieb Richard Vetter:
>
> Hi Richard...
>
> An dieser Stelle will ich mich auch mal einklinken. Einerseits kann ich
> HPMs Ausführungen zustimmen und werde im Folgendem noch manches
> hinzufügen, andererseits ist mir ein Aspekt zu schroff auf die Seite
> geschoben worden.
>
> > "Hans Peter Michael Limmert" schrieb:
 [Saturn und Satyrn...]
> >> Haben gar nichts miteinander zu tun.  Satyrn sind griechisch und die
> >> Mehrzahl von Satyr, während Saturn (griech. Chronos) lateinisch ist.
>
> Das ist zwar rein faktisch richtig, übergeht jedoch, daß Römer, wie auch
> die Griechen indoeuropäischen Ursprungs sind. Deshalb ist dein Verdacht,
> Richard, beides hätte etwas miteinander zu tun, sehr wohl berechtigt.
> (Wenn auch nicht bezogen auf das 1. Jahrzausend vor der Zeitwende)
> Sowohl Saturn, als auch Satyrn, als auch Sadhu (ind."Heiliger"), aber
> auch Hados (=Hades!) und Satan gehören zum gleichen Wortstamm.
>
> Die romische Religion setzte sich aus dem Pantheon von 4 verschiedenen
> Völkern zusammen: Italer, Umbrier, Griechen (Sizilien+Neapel) und
> Etruskern (nicht-indoeuropäisch).
>
> Wie HPM schon beschrieb, war Saturn ein italischer bzw. umbrischer
> Erdgott und sein Tierzeichen war das (Arbeits-)Pferd. Erst später, kurz
> vor der Zeitwende, wurde der Bock daraus. (Das Renn-/Kriegspferd gehörte
> zu Mars)
> Er war zwar der Gott der Zeit, aber an diesem Punkt muß man höllisch
> aufpassen, um nicht zu einer Fehlinterpretation zu kommen.
> Zeit, wie wir sie kennen, also linear, ist eine "moderne"
> monotheistische Erfindung. Die Völker der Antike (außer den Hebräern)
> kannten nur die zyklische Zeit. Insofern war Saturn/C(ha)ronos* kein
> Gott der unendlich weiterströmenden Zeit, sondern ein Gott der
> wi(e)derkehrenden Zeit, der Zyklen und Jahreszeiten.
> Damit war im alles unterstellt, was zyklisch wiederkehrte, also im
> Prinzip die gesamte Natur.
> Siehe dazu auch Pluton/Hades, der als Erdgott dafür sorgte, daß im
> Herbst Altes verschwand und im Frühjahr wiedergeboren wurde.
>
> Bei den Satyrn wird es nun ein bisschen komplizierter, weil hier
> mehrere, von den Griechen assimilierte Völker zum Bild beitrugen.
> So waren sie ursprünglich bei den einen Waldgeister, bei anderen
> Erdgeister, auch Fruchtbarkeits-Götter und bei den Steppenvölkern des
> Nordostens war die wichtigste Fruchbarkeit die der Pferde.
> Wie wurden aber nun pferdebehufte Trolle daraus (bzw. in parallelen
> Mythen die Kentauren)?
> Nun, im Mittelmeerraum war bis zum 2. vorchristlichen Jahrtausend das
> Pferd als Reittier völlig unbekannt. Sogar beim Trojanischen Krieg ritt
> man nicht, sondern man fuhr. Sich auf ein Pferd zu setzen war genauso
> ein Unding, wie auf eine Kuh oder einen Hund. So unterstellte man allen
> Reitervölkern (die man auch nur aus Erzählungen kannte), daß sie ihre
> "Seele" an das Tier abgegeben hätten, bzw. die Seelen von Tier und
> Mensch eins geworden seien. Solche Verknüpfungen, auch morphologischer
> Art (Satyrn, Kentauren) kann man bis in die Altsteinzeit (Felsbilder)
> nachverfolgen.
> Ein Mensch, der sich auf ein Pferd setzte, war ein Mannpferd und hatte
> deshalb auch die Triebkraft eines solchen Hengstes. Die Wildheit einiger
> Reitervölker (Mordlust und Saufgelage) bestätigte dieses Bild nur noch.
>
> Mit Erdgöttern hatten diese nun nichts mehr gemein. Aus den Wäldern
> hervorbrechend zerstörten sie die Felder, raubten die Frauen und
> plünderten die Vorräte (=> Fress- und Sauforgien).
>
> Bei den Satyrn kann man also sagen, daß sich hier Religion (Saturn+
> Waldgeister+Fruchtbarkeit), Mythen und Beschreibung von Reisenden zu
> einer Synthese zusammen gefunden haben.
> Astrologisch gehören sie in das 11. Prinzip, daß ja bis vor kurzem
> ebenfalls dem Saturn zugeordnet war. => das exzessive Doppelgesicht des
> Saturn (Doppelmoral, Nadelstreifenanzug + Orgien).
> Sogar in der Entwicklung eines Menschen lässt sich dieses Doppelprinzip
> beobachten: In der Jugend gesittet und streng löst sich im Alter meist
> zu Toleranz auf, während sich junge Revoluzzer und Himmelstürmer dann
> als wahre Diktatoren erweisen.
>
> >> Die Saturnalien waren wiederum die Feiern zur Wintersonnenwende.
>
> Hier noch eine Ergänzung zu HPMs Beschreibung:
> Saturn galt in der Antike als Herrscher des "Goldenen Zeitalters", einer
> vorgeschichtlichen Zeit in der es Wohlstand, Überfluß und Freiheit gab.
> Ich war lange Zeit auch über die "scheinbare Vertauschung" von
> Saturn<->Jupiter in der Astrologie erstaunt und nahm es halt als
> Abweichung von den Mythen hin.
> Richtig ist jedoch, daß die Freiheit des Saturn, die Freiheit einer
> "Gartenzwergkultur" ist.
> Betrachte hierbei eine Dorfgemeinschaft in der alle ohne Zank und Hader
> leben. Alle helfen einander und feiern auch die selben Riten. Einmal im
> Jahr sitzen dann alle am Dorfplatz zusammen (Asterix und Obelix) und
> feiern ausgelassen bis tief in die Nacht. Und sogar der
> Großgrundbesitzer, Landvogt, Häuptling sitzt dabei, muß sich einige ihn
> derupfende Gschdanzl anhören und letztlich schmeißt er einige
> "Saal"runden. 9 Monate später weiß keiner, wess Vater die Neugeborenen
> sind.
> Dieses Ausbrechen aus der Regel ist letztlich eine Bestätigung des
> bindenden Prinzips. Eine Belohnung für die monatelange schwere Arbeit.
>
> Jupiter als expandierendes Prinzip ist jedoch bar einer Unterordnung. Er
> ist eher ausufernd, gierig, raffend (auch auf Kosten anderer) und eher
> vergleichbar mit unserer städtischen Kultur.
> Saturn ist Bauer (Tausch), Jupiter ist Städter (Geld).
>
> Als letzten Punkt noch der Hinweis, daß die Saturnalien, wie auch die
> Festlegung des 10. Prinzips in den Dezember, nicht römischen Ursprungs
> sein kann.
> Jede Kultur legt ihre Ernte-Feiern auf einen Zeitpunkt knapp hinter den
> örtlichen Ernteterminen; bei uns der September und der "goldene
> Oktober".
> Wenn man jetzt sagt: "Naja die Römer leben ja mediteran und können
> deshalb bis in den Dezember hinein ernten.", so übersieht man, daß im 1.
> vorchristlichen Jahrtausend in Italien ein ähnliches Klima geherrscht
> hat, wie bei uns z.Z. in Mitteleuropa; es war eine Kaltzeit. Man muß
> also bis ins 2-3.Jtd v.d.Zw. zurückgehen, um wieder vergleichbar
> Temperaturen zu bekommen, die einen Ernteschluß im Dezember zulassen.
> Rom, also die Römer, gab es damals noch nicht. Das waren damals paaar
> halbwilde Stämme, die sich mit den urbanen Etruskern wilde Gefechte
> lieferten.
> Um die Saturnalien (bzw. die röm./helen. Religion überhaupt) zu
> begreifen, müssen wir also mindestens bis zur Zeit der minoischen Kultur
> und ihrer Zerschlagung durch die Seevölker zurückgehen. Und dies ist
> auch die zeit, in der nach den Mythen das "goldene" Saturn-Zeitalter
> durch das "heroische" Jupiter-Zeitalter abgelöst wurde.
>
> ... Kalle
>
> (*)
> Ich habe weit oben Kronos absichtlich als C(ha)ronos geschrieben, um auf
> den Wortstamm hinzuweisen.
> K^ronos, Choronos, Cheiron, Horon, Saros, Zerus usw.
> (K<->S: Kentum<->Satem Sprachen)
>
> Da also Saturn und Kronos zu unterschiedlichen Wortstämmen gehören.
> dürfte auch klar sein, daß beide Gottheiten durch unterschiedliche
> Völker geschaffen wurden, verschiedenes bedeuteten, später aber, wegen
> ihrer Wesensverwandschaft, als Synonyme für eine Gottheit betrachtet
> wurden.
> --
> "Die erste Voraussetzung für Unsterblichkeit ist der Tod"
> (Stanislav LEM)

Hallo und vielen Dank fuer den ausfuehrlichen Post; es hat
vieles darin, dass ich nicht oder nicht so genau wusste.

Ich hatte immer gewisse Probleme, die Zeichen Schuetze und
Steinbock klar auseinanderzuhalten, vielleicht weil beide
etwas mit dem Winteranfang zu tun haben. Hier sind ein paar
Gedanken:

Ein Bekannter meiner Eltern war ein direkter Nachkomme des
Basler Malers Arnold Boecklin. Der Vorname des Bekannten war
Peter, das gibt also Stein-Bock. Viele Bilder des Malers
enthalten Zentauren, Satyrn, Pan, Faune.

Basel ist an der Grenze zu Deutschland; die deutschen Reiche
hatten alle einen starken Bezug zu Saturn (Steinbock /
Wassermann). Das erinnert mich an die Grenze zwischen Herbst
und Winter, zwischen Schuetze und Steinbock. Nach meinem
Eindruck haben Basler in der Kunst gerne "viele verschiedene
Farbkleckse oder sonst Dinge, ohne viel Beziehung zueinander",
was nach meinem Empfinden recht gut zu Schuetze passen wuerde.

Ueber das mit einem Erntedankfest im Dezember: Vor etwa 5000
Jahren, im Stierzeitalter, waere die Grenze zwischen den
Konstellationen Schuetze und Steinbock, ganz grob geschaetzt
ueber einen Monat vor dem 21.12. gewesen, was vielleicht mehr
Sinn macht.

In diesem Moment macht es vielleicht Sinn, etwas ueber mich
selbst zu erzaehlen: Ich bin Physiker, daher ist mein
historisches Wissen teilweise beschraenkt, aber ich bin auch
lernfaehig. Vor etwas mehr als einem Jahr habe ich auf dem
Internet unter meinem richtigen Namen, Alain Stalder, ein
Dokument mit Hypothesen und Endeckungen u.A. zur Astrologie
veroeffentlicht. Ein Kernpunkt darin ist ein einfaches
Modell, das die Sternzeichen als Uebergaenge von Umwandlungen
der 4 Elemente in der Art wie Aristoteles sie sah, beschreibt.

Kurz die Luftzeichen als Beispiel:
Die Umwandlung Zwillinge-Waage-Wassermann ist der Uebergang
von Feuer (durch feucht machen) zu Luft und dann (durch kalt
machen) zu Wasser. Das archetypische Bild ist eine Wolke
(d.h. Luft), aus der sowohl Blitze (Feuer) wie auch Regen
(Wasser) kommen. Die Zwillinge bestehen in diesem Modell
v.a. aus Feuer, das (Flamme, Blitze) sich schnell bewegt
und unvorhersehbar ist. Der Wassermann besteht entsprechend
v.a. aus Wasser, das transparent und ist und als Regen
konstant herunterfaellt und auf alle gleich. Die Waage ist
in der Mitte, muss Feuer und Wasser ausgleichen. Etwas
abstrakter kann man einen konstanten Lernprozess im Leben
erkennen: Ein Kind schaut sich die Dinge schnell von vielen
Richtungen an. Eine Muenze, z.B. sind zuerst nur zwei Bilder,
erst im Kopf durch Lernen, entsteht ein einziges Ding, die
Muenze. Waehrend dem weiteren Leben, erkennt man mehr und
mehr Dinge als Variationen von Dingen, die man bereits kennt.
Die groesste Einheit erreicht man im Alter, hat dann aber
auch die Tendenz, gewisse Dinge, die nicht in das Weltbild
passen, zurechtzubiegen oder zu ignorieren.

Ich habe bisher alles ausschliesslich auf englisch
beschrieben, auf meiner Webseite: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
oder in meinen Newsgroup posts:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0

(Uebrigens schreibe ich in meinem Hauptdokument im Anhang B
auch etwas ueber Lem's Solaris, das ich als sehr detaillierte,
analytische Beschreibung der Fische sehe, dessen was per
Definition nicht analysiert werden kann (Lem hat die Sonne in
der Jungfrau)).

Noch ein paar weitere Gedanken: Der Teufel (Satan) ist in
meiner Sicht etwa eine Mischung aus Steinbock und Skorpion.
Die Symbole passen zusammen: Fest im November, Kastration
des Saturn mit einer Sichel, resp. Skorpion, der entscheiden
muss, und dabei auch, falls wirklich notwendig, entscheidet,
was abgeschnitten werden muss (im Sinn der 3 Schicksen, bei
denen die Mittlere, das mittlere Wasserzeichen, den
Schicksalsfaden abmisst, und die Letzte ihn dann abschneidet).
Soweit ich weiss, waren in vielen Kulturen die Sternzeichen
zuerst sehr gross, es gab zuerst nur 2 oder 3 (ev. als
Symbole der Jahreszeiten), erst spaeter zerfielen sie in
Kleinere, wie z.B. der Skorpion in Skorpion und Waage.
Weiss jemand hier etwas Genaueres, welche Zeichen wann
verbunden waren ? (oder eine gute Quelle dazu ?)

Nochmals Danke,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re; Satyrn
Date: Fri 18 Jul 2003 00:04:03 CEST
Newsgroups: de.alt.astrologie
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307171404.1820ffbd@posting.google.com>

Kalle Sichler <icho@online.de> schrieb in
<rgzpxfo66eoe.dlg@betei.net>:

> [Fullquote fachgerecht nach dev null entsorgt]

Passiert mit Quotes die zu /dev/null geschickt werden,
das Gleiche wie laut Douglas Adams mit Kugelschreibern ?

> Hi Alain...

Alain Stalder ist per E-mail erreichbar unter der
Adresse astalder@exactphilosophy.net; fuer Feedback
bezueglich den Hypothesen und Entdeckungen auf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net

Posts mache ich nur (noch) unter meinem Pseudonym
delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine); was eher eine
Rolle ist als ich selbst, hat auch astrologisch ein
anderes Entstehungsdatum (irgendwann 2001, ich weiss
selber nicht genau wann).

Als Alain Stalder hatte ich etwa 150 Posts geschrieben,
und war immer sehr bedacht darauf, alles was sich
faktisch belegen oder widerlegen liesse, sehr genau
anzuschauen, bevor ich es veroeffentlichte (das gilt
sogar noch mehr fuer meine Hypthesen und Entdeckungen
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/review.pdf)

Unter meinem Pseudonym veroeffentliche ich eher die
Dinge, die ich gesehen hatte als ich die obigen
Dokumente schrieb, die ich benoetigte um die dortigen
Fakten abzusichern. D.h. was ich als delphi29@excite.com
veroeffentliche ist spekulativer, erlaubt es mir aber
auch viel mehr als Inspiration und Ideen fuer Andere
herauszubringen, als mir das unter meinem richtigen
Namen moeglich waere (Ich habe den Mond+MC im Widder).
delphi29@excite.com hat sicher den Pluto im Schuetzen,
was vieles leichter macht (experimentell).

> Am 16.7. um 20:32 schrieb Delphi Twentine:
> > ...
> > Hier sind ein paar Gedanken:
> > Ein Bekannter meiner Eltern war ein direkter Nachkomme des
> > Basler Malers Arnold Boecklin. Der Vorname des Bekannten war
> > Peter, das gibt also Stein-Bock. Viele Bilder des Malers
> > enthalten Zentauren, Satyrn, Pan, Faune.
>
> Hast du zufälligerweise die Daten von Boecklin? In meinem Archiv kann
> ich zu ihm nicht finden.

Nein, habe ich nicht.

> > Basel ist an der Grenze zu Deutschland; die deutschen Reiche
> > hatten alle einen starken Bezug zu Saturn (Steinbock /
> > Wassermann).
>
> ;-) Im Prinzip möchte ich dir, schon aufgrund meiner Vorurteile,
> zustimmen, aber zu den deutschen Reichen gehörten auch die Hanse und die
> Nederlande. Ob man da verallgemeinernd ein Tierkreiszeichen preferieren
> kann?

Ich bezog mich auf folgende Daten:
 800-12-25 Karl der Grosse vom Papst in Rom zum Kaiser gekroent
 962-02-02 1. Reich, Otto der Grosse zum Kaiser gekroent (wie oben)
1871-01-01 2. Reich, Bismark
1933-01-30 3. Reich, Hitler Reichskanzler

Wenn ich diese Daten unter meinem richtigen Namen publiziert
haette, wuerde ich jetzt sicher mindestens eine Stunde
investieren um sie nochmals abzusichern. Unter Pseudonym, aber
ist mir das egal - ich habe die Daten damals um die kuerzlich
vergangenen Saturn-Pluto Oppositionen herum gesammelt; da ist
die Chance klein, dass mehr als ein kleiner unwesentlicher
Fehler darin ist. Hingegen, gibt mir das Zeit fuer die folgende
weiterfuehrende Idee:

Jean Richer hat 1967 ein Buch mit dem Titel "Geographie sacree
du monde grec" veroeffentlicht, das in den 90ern in den USA
unter dem Namen "Sacred Geography of The Ancient Greeks,
Astrological Symbolism in Art, Architecture, and Landscape"
herauskam. Darin stellt er die Hypothese auf, dass im alten
Griechenland, die Provinzen ein Ebenbild des Sternkreises
bildeten, mit (v.a.) Delphi als Zentrum und z.B. Sparta fuer
Zwillinge, Athen fuer Jungfrau, etc., und er vergleicht das
mit Ortsangaben in Mythen, mit Symbolen auf Muenzen und auf
anderen Gegenstaenden. In den beiden folgenden Posts von mir,
ist auch ein Link mit einer Karte und einem Ausschnitt aus
der englischen Ausgabe von Jean Richer's Buch, sowie seine
Geburtsdaten:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=d12bedf0.0307071054.30dabe41%40posting.google.com

Von Rom aus gesehen, oder auch von den Schweizer Alpen,
die wie Delphi zentral gelegen in den Bergen sind, waere
Deutschland/Holland durchaus in der Gegend von Steinbock
und Wassermann. Jedenfalls finde ich die Idee ein paar
Gedanken wert.

> > Ueber das mit einem Erntedankfest im Dezember: Vor etwa 5000
> > Jahren, im Stierzeitalter, waere die Grenze zwischen den
> > Konstellationen Schuetze und Steinbock, ganz grob geschaetzt
> > ueber einen Monat vor dem 21.12. gewesen, was vielleicht mehr
> > Sinn macht.
>
> Würde der (westlich) astrologische Tierkreis siderisch sein, so hättest
> du recht. Die bildlichen, astronomischen Konstellationen sind gegenüber
> dem astrologischen TK verschoben. Beide haben jedoch, bis auf die
> Namensgebung (als Eselsbrücke) nichts miteinander zu tun.

Nach meiner Einschaeztung und meinem Wissen sind siderische
Tierkreise und eine Astrologie, die sich an den realen
Positionen der Planeten gegenueber der Sterne orientiert,
die Aelteren. Wann genau der Uebergang stattfand, kann ich
schlecht beurteilen, aber mit einem symbolischen Argument,
wuerde ich eher darauf tendieren, dass im Stierzeitalter,
die reellen Sternzeichen eher wichtig waren, und erst im
naechsten Zeitalter, Widder/Waage, eine gleichberechtigte
Unterteilung in 12 Abschnitte vorgenommen wurde (oder
populaer wurde), was die weitere Abstraktion verursacht
durch die Praezession waehrend dem Fischezeitalter leichter
machte. In dem Zusammenhang ist vielleicht interessant,
was ich in meinem "discoveries.pdf" Dokument dazu schreibe.

> Auch mein Auto hat eine gewisse Anzahl von Pferdestärken, aber unter der
> Motorhaube riecht es nicht nach Pferdemist. :-) Ich kann jedoch als
> historisch interessierter Mensch erkennen, daß es hier irgendwann eine
> Verknüpfung gegeben haben muß, als Automobile noch mit Pferdefuhrwerken
> verglichen wurden.
> Religionen bedienen sich häufig sichtbarer Zeichen ihrer Gottheiten und
> mit ein bisschen Übung würde es einen Technokraten nicht schwerfallen,
> Sterne mit Linien so zu verbinden, daß am Himmel ein Space-Shuttle
> sichtbar würde. Sternbilder sind also reine Projektionen aus dem
> mythischen Kontext heraus, um dem einfachen Menschen aufzuzeigen, daß
> das Göttliche eben doch präsent ist.
> Die Astrologie hat sich dieser Bilder in der Namensgebung ihrer
> 30°-Abschnitte des Jahreskreises bedient. Daß beide analog aber nicht
> identisch sind bemerkst du, daß zum Beispiel das astrolog. Zeichen Stier
> weiblich ist.
> Der astrologische "Winterpunkt" als Trenner zwischen Schütze und
> Steinbock fällt also immer auf jene Zeit, in der sich Herbst und Winter
> voneinander scheiden. Dies wird auch noch in 4000 Jahren so sein, wenn
> das TKZ Schütze im Sternbild Jungfrau steht.
> Vielleicht wird es deutlicher, wenn ich den Widderpunkt zur Erklärung
> heranziehe. Der Widderpunkt kennzeichnet jene Jahreszeit, in dem "der
> Bauer die Rößlein einspannt". Das war vor 2000 Jahre so, es war so als
> das Lied gedichtet wurde und ist auch heute so. ;-)
> Probleme sehe ich erst, wenn man verschiedene astrologische Systeme in
> Beziehung setzt. So komme ich bei der Fixstern-A. immer ins Schleudern,
> da diese ja naturgemäß siderisch ist.



> > In diesem Moment macht es vielleicht Sinn, etwas ueber mich
> > selbst zu erzaehlen: Ich bin Physiker
>
> nobody is perfect (sorry für scientist bashing) ;-)

Physik ist, meiner Meinung nach, das Studium das man am
wenigsten absolvieren kann, wenn man dumm ist. Weil man
logisch Denken koennen muss und sich auch etwas
vorstellen koennen und Ideen haben muss. In vielen
anderen Wissenschaften, kann man mehr mit Fleiss
kompensieren; was nicht heisst, dass man wenn man
intelligent ist, umbedingt Physik studierent sollte...

> > daher ist mein
> > historisches Wissen teilweise beschraenkt, aber ich bin auch
> > lernfaehig.
>
> Ich denke die meisten Astrologen haben ein Problem mit der
> physikalischen Komponente und wissen nicht, daß sich Pluto derzeit
> gleichschnell wie Neptun bewegt. Gerade in der Astrologie ist es
> notwendig über den Tellerrand zu sehen.
>
> > Vor etwas mehr als einem Jahr habe ich auf dem
> > Internet unter meinem richtigen Namen, Alain Stalder, ein
> > Dokument mit Hypothesen und Endeckungen u.A. zur Astrologie
> > veroeffentlicht.
>
> Konnte ich per Google leider nicht entdecken.
> (nur "A few new discoveries in physics")
>
> > Ein Kernpunkt darin ist ein einfaches
> > Modell...
>
> [Hier gekürzt. Modell besser im separaten Thread]
>
> > Ich habe bisher alles ausschliesslich auf englisch
> > beschrieben, auf meiner Webseite: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
>
> Aah! Ezertla I got it!
>
> > oder in meinen Newsgroup posts:
> > http://groups.google.ch/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=
> > d&filter=0
>
> Ist alt.astrology wieder lesbar? Das war doch ne lange Zeit ein
> Trollsumpf wie hier.

Ich habe eine sehr gute Meinung ueber alt.astrology.tropical.

> > (Uebrigens schreibe ich in meinem Hauptdokument im Anhang B
> > auch etwas ueber Lem's Solaris, das ich als sehr detaillierte,
> > analytische Beschreibung der Fische sehe, dessen was per
> > Definition nicht analysiert werden kann (Lem hat die Sonne in
> > der Jungfrau)).
>
> BTW: Ich such schon lange seine Uhrzeit.
> Laut Bonin hat er 12.09.1921, Lemberg.
> Nach anderen Quellen 19.09.1921

Kann ich nicht helfen.

> > Noch ein paar weitere Gedanken: Der Teufel (Satan) ist in
> > meiner Sicht etwa eine Mischung aus Steinbock und Skorpion.
>
> Hier mußt du aufpassen. "Teufel" ist ein Kunstgeschöpf des christlichen
> Mittelalters und hat mit Astrologie nichts zu tun.
> Teufel (devil) <- got. Dewaz <- altg. Deuus <- idg. Djaus pitar
> Die mittelalterliche Kirche benutzte den Himmelgott der Germanen, um ihn
> als Antagonisten  ihres "Guten Gottes" (Gott=gut) darzustellen.
> Der Glaube an ihn wurde als Gegenglaube (=Aberglaube) bezeichnet.
>
> Seine Darstellung als bocksbeinigen, geschwänzten und gehörnten
> Bösewicht ist einerseits eine Beziehungnahme zur Venus (der gehörnte
> Stern = Heidensymbol) und den unglücksbringenden Schweifsternen
> (Kometen) und andererseits zu den lustbetonten Satyrn der Griechen und
> dem Hades/Satanas (Gott der Unterwelt).
>
> Hier wurden mehrere Mythologien vermengt, um den armen Heiden
> aufzuzeigen, wie böse ihr ehemaliger Gott doch war. Astrologisch läßt
> sich das kaum verwenden.

Meine Bemerkung war nicht geschichtlich oder etymologisch
gemeint. Siehe auch, was ich in meinem "discoveries.pdf"
Dokument dazu schreibe.

> > Die Symbole passen zusammen: Fest im November, Kastration
> > des Saturn mit einer Sichel
>
> Saturn/Kronos hat seinen Vater Uranos kastriert. Die Begriffe
> Entmannung/Kastration/Beschneidung fallen dementsprechend auf den
> Wechsel Wassermann/Steinbock.
> Selbst wenn ich mir jetzt eine Verschiebung um einen Monat vorstelle
> (also siderisch) komme ich aufs Ende des Dezember.

Die Verwechslung war oberflaechlich ein Fluechtigkeitsfehler,
Auf einer tieferen Ebene, ist das Schicksal von Uranus und
Saturn bezueglich ihrer Soehne jedoch nicht sehr verschieden;
erst Jupiter bricht den Zyklus.

> > resp. Skorpion, der entscheiden
> > muss, und dabei auch, falls wirklich notwendig, entscheidet,
> > was abgeschnitten werden muss (im Sinn der 3 Schicksen
>
> Hmm! Jetzt komme ich doch etwas ins Schleudern.
> Der Begriff "Schicksen" entstammt m.W. aus dem Jiddischen und bedeutet
> "christliche Mädchen".
> Oder meintest du "Schicksalsgöttinnen"? Das waren in den meisten
> Mythologien ebenfalls 3.
>
> > bei denen die Mittlere, das mittlere Wasserzeichen, den
> > Schicksalsfaden abmisst, und die Letzte ihn dann abschneidet).
>
> Aha! Schicksalgöttinnen. ;-)

Ich kann die Etymologie weder bestaetigen noch widerlegen.
In meiner Erfahrung, findet man jedoch fast immer einen
Zusammenhang zwischen aehnlichen Woerten, wenn man nur tief
genug graebt (vgl. Satyr/Saturn). Umgekehrt, sagt eine
Annaeherung von Worten in einer Sprache auch viel ueber die
jeweilige Kultur.

> > Soweit ich weiss, waren in vielen Kulturen die Sternzeichen
> > zuerst sehr gross, es gab zuerst nur 2 oder 3 (ev. als
> > Symbole der Jahreszeiten), erst spaeter zerfielen sie in
> > Kleinere, wie z.B. der Skorpion in Skorpion und Waage.
> > Weiss jemand hier etwas Genaueres, welche Zeichen wann
> > verbunden waren ? (oder eine gute Quelle dazu ?)
>
> Also wenn jemand eine Quelle kennt, dann muß sie schon wahrsagerische
> Fähigkeiten haben, denn die 12-Teilung dürfte noch bis in
> vorgeschichtliche Zeiten zurückzuführen sein. Daß es Völker mit
> Primitiv-Astrologie gab, die erst später die 12-Teilung übernahmen, tut
> dem keinen Abbruch. Ich spekuliere, daß diese 12er-Teilung kurz nach der
> letzten Eiszeit stattfand. Jedenfalls läßt sich diese Parallelität auch
> bei Völkern nachweisen, die sich schon vor gut 8000 jahren abspalteten.
> Deiner Vermutung, daß in den Urzeiten eine Jahreszeiten-Astrologie
> bestand, will ich aber nicht widersprechen.
> :-)
>
> > Nochmals Danke,
> > delphi29@excite.com
>
> Jetzt werde ich mir mal deine PDF-Files einverleiben.
> Danke dafür.
>
> ...Kalle

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re; Satyrn
Date: Fri 18 Jul 2003 23:41:53 CEST
Newsgroups: de.alt.astrologie
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307181341.518425b3@posting.google.com>

Wieder viele interessante Informationen. Ich bin etwa
3 Wochen nach der letzten Uranus-Pluto Konjunktion in
der Mitte der Jungfrau geboren, daher sind mir die
Probleme nicht unbekannt. Heutige Wissenschaft scheint
mir einerseits (astrologisch) jungfraeuliche Zuege
zu haben (Einteilung in viele Spezialdisziplinen mit
wenig Querverbindungen), andererseits versuchen die
einzelnen Disziplinen jeweils ein einziges richtiges
Modell zu finden, dass sich mit allen Fakten deckt,
was mir eher wassermaennisch scheint (hat ihre
Wurzeln auch im letzten Dekan der Fische und dann v.a.
bei der Aufklaerung mit Endeckung des Uranus und auch
Omega Pisces' Vorbeiziehen am Fruehlingspunkt).

Vor allem durch Letzteres (Wassermann) scheint es mir
doch, dass es neue Ideen und auch Fakten, die nicht
sofort in das Bild passen, es ein wenig ungerecht
schwer haben, genuegend Beachtung geschenkt zu bekommen.
Andererseits, gibt das dem Weltbild jeweils eine
hoehere Stabilitaet, was durchaus auch Vorteile fuer
eine Gesellschaft haben kann. Neue Modelle muessten
dann eher etwas im Verborgenen eine gewisse Reife
erreichen, bevor eine groessere Masse sich bereit
erklaert, sich damit zu befassen.

In gewissen Bereichen der Geschichte, waere es
vielleicht sinnvoller, systematisch verschiedene
Theorien fuer die gleichen Zeitabschnitte zu haben,
und auch zu versuchen, diese soweit moeglich auch
quantitativ nach verschiedenen Gesichtspunkten zu
gewichten. Mit anderen Worten, man sollte vielleicht
die moeglichen Vergangenheiten strukturieren, und in
eine Form bringen, die von Computern handlebar ist.

Der fundamentalistische Skeptizismus, den es soweit
ich sehe v.a. in England und seinen ehemaligen
Kolonien gibt, ist mir zu extrem, zu stark gebunden
an die Erde, zu wenig bereit Hypothesen geistig zu
erkunden, zu aengstlich (und dadurch auch zu agressiv).
In der Physik kann man Hypothesen, nachdem man sie
aufgestellt hat, normalerweise experimentell
verifizieren oder falsifizieren; das ist der Punkt
wo kritisches Denken (Skepsis) klar notwendig ist.
Es in der Wissenschaft eine Balance von Beidem.

Nicht jeder ist gleich gut faehig Ideen zu erkunden,
resp. Ideen zu kritisieren, sie skeptisch zu beurteilen.
Aber mindestens sollten beide Seiten sich bewusst sein,
dass es (wenigstens auf Dauer) Fortschritt nur mit
beiden Seiten geben kann. Ob man das am Besten als Kampf
fast bis auf's Messer mit extremen Gegensaetzen macht,
oder eher in freundschaftlicher Kooperation, haengt
wahrscheinlich von Fall zu Fall ab, aber mir persoenlich
ist die zweite Variante lieber.

Danke auch an Martin Bechmann (auch fuer all die Links).

delphi29@excite.com
keyword: exactphilosophy

--
Kalle Sichler <icho@online.de> schrieb in
<1gyppwgokzohg$.dlg@betei.net>:

> Am 18.7. um 2:03 schrieb Martin Bechmann:
>
> > Kalle Sichler schrieb am 18 Jul 2003:
>
> >>>> Also wenn jemand eine Quelle kennt, dann muß sie schon wahrsagerische
> >>>> Fähigkeiten haben, denn die 12-Teilung dürfte noch bis in
> >>>> vorgeschichtliche Zeiten zurückzuführen sein.
> >>> Das schließt aber nicht unbedingt aus, dass auch mal weniger
> >>> Sternzeichen verwendet wurden.
> >>
> >> Deswegen fügte ich an:
> >>>> Daß es Völker mit Primitiv-Astrologie gab, die erst später die
> >>>> 12-Teilung übernahmen, tut dem keinen Abbruch.
>
> > Okay, vielleicht hätte ich meine Skepsis deutlicher zum Ausdruck bringen
> > sollen... Das Zauberwort in Deinem ganz oben zitierten Posting ist
> > "dürfte". Sicherlich haben schon in der Steinzeit Menschen den Nachthimmel
> > beobachtet. Aber auf wen jetzt eigentlich die 12-Teilung zurückzuführen
> > ist, ist nach wie vor nicht gesichert.
>
> Und je weiter wir in die Vergangenheit zurückgehen, umso ungesicherter
> werden die Daten. Denke nur an den Brand von Alexandria. Und
> kriegerische "Barbaren"-Völker haben sich meist einen Sch... darum
> gekümmert, welche Werte sie brandschatzten.
>
> >(Soweit ich sehe, sind die
> > Babylonier die besten Kandidaten, geschichtswissenschaftlich gesehen.)
>
> Evtl. noch die Sumer. Aber solange wir nicht irgendeine "versunkene"
> Bibliothek finden, werden "exakte Beweise" aus früheren zeiten
> ausbleiben.
>
> > Dabei finde ich sowohl den Standpunkt dessen, was wir 'exakt' d.h.
> > wissenschaftlich wissen, als auch gute, aber nicht-wissenschaftliche
> > Spekulationen interessant.
>
> Auch "Spekulationen" (sprich Hypothese oder Theorie) sind
> wissenschaftliches Handwerkszeug. :-)
> Nach deiner Definition dürften also "Wissenschaftler", die sich um das
> Erdaltertum (Entstehung der Erde, Sauriere etc) bemühen, reine
> Spekulanten sein, die man eher den Esoteriker zuorden sollte. :-)
> Damit wäre auch meine Grundannahme: "Martin ist intelligent!" eine
> Null-Aussage, da sie ja auf reinen Vermutungen und Wissen aus dritter
> Hand (Buchstaben auf den Bildschirm) besteht und damit äußerst
> spekulativ ist. (harhar)
>
> > (Wenn Du also eine Quelle für die
> > vorgeschichtlichen Wurzeln des Zodiaks hast, würde mich das schon
> > interessieren.
>
> Wenn mir irgendwann jemand eine solche Quelle nennen würde, wäre ich
> sehr erheitert. Wir haben es hier nicht mit einer mathematischen oder
> geometrischen "Erfindung" zu tun, wie z.B. dem Kreis des Thales, sondern
> um eine Art Kulturgut wie: "Alle guten Dinge sind Drei", "Auf einem Bein
> steht sich's schlecht", "Alle 5e von sich strecken", "Glückzahl 7" usw.
> Den Ursprung der 12er-Teilung zu finden ist m.E. genauso von
> erfolgreich, wie den Erfinder des Rades oder dem des Feuers.
> Apropos: Bei Ausgrabungen am Bodensee wurden Bumerangs gefunden, die
> Inkas kannten das Rad (Spielzeug). Solche Erkenntisse zeigen, daß
> "Erfindungen" nicht nur einmal gemacht wurden, sondern immer dann, wenn
> sie notwendig waren und dementsprechend auch wieder verschwinden
> konnten.
> Was bedeuten jetzt die Bumerangs am Bodensee? Daß die australischen
> Aborigines abgekupfert haben? (lineares Denken)
> Diese Fixierung auf einen "Erfinder" stammt noch aus den Anfängen der
> "Schönen neuen Zeit", des 17.-18. Jahrhunderts, wo jeder technische
> Neuerung tatsächlich auf *eine* Person zurückzuführen war, eben dem
> *Erfinder*. Es ist eine unglückseelische Eigenschaft, die nichts
> anerkennt, was eben keinen Namen, keinen Vater hat.
> Diese Kritik an der auslaufenden, homozentrischen Wissenschaft will ich
> im nächsten Ansatz präzisieren.
>
> > Ich denke allerdings dass eine 'strikte' (also gleichmäßige,
> > oder erwarte ich jetzt zuviel von den Altvorderen?) 12-Teilung Mathematik
> > und die Schrift voraussetzt, also kaum vor den Sumerern oder höchstens
> > Harrappa zurückzudatieren ist. Untergegangene Hochkulturen kann man
> > natürlich nie ausschließen.)
>
> Dies setzt voraus, das der ultimative Beginn von Schrift und Mathe auf
> diese Zeit zurückzuführen ist und nicht früher. Es grenzt also alle
> Kulturen aus, die vor diesem Datum existierten.
> Die Sphinx wäre also nie gebaut wordem, da sie mindesten 7000 Jahre alt
> ist und man solch ein Ding kaum ohne genauere Berechnungen und
> organisierte Bauleitung schaffen kann. Städte wie Jericho (vor 9000
> Jahren) und die dort gefundenen gleichalten Artefakte einer
> Kupferverhüttung sind nicht denkbar, da dies auch ohne Wissenschaft
> nicht denkbar ist.
> Vor 20 Jahren war ich in Frankreich im Forret Noir in einem kleinem
> Dörfchen (Glozel), um mir dort alte Schriften anzusehen. Im dortigen
> Museum wurden Knochen, Steine und Tontafeln ausgestellt auf denen Tier-,
> Menschen- und Zeichenritzungen zu erkennen sind und die Authentizität
> von der Französchischen Akademie für Archäologie anerkannt wurden. Nach
> einer Untersuchung der University of Oxfort (C14 und Luminiszenz)
> konnten die Artefakte auf 12000-15000 BC datiert werden. Die Zeichen
> sind einwandfrei erkennbar Schrift-Zeichen.
> Bei Barnanez im Nordwesten Frankreichs steht eine haushohe 70m lange
> Stufenpyramide. Als ich Mitte der 70er Jahre zum ersten mal dort war
> (aufgrund eines Geheimtipps) gaben die dort arbeitenden Archäologen an,
> die Anlage sei 3500 Jahre alt. Ein Jahr später erfuhr ich von den
> gleichen Wissenschaftlern, die Anlage sei 5000 Jahre alt. Bei einem
> Besuch Mitte der 80er lag das Alter bei 7000 Jahre. Diese Stufenpyramide
> hat übrigens Dolmen überbaut, die noch viel älter sind.
>
> Ich habe im Laufe der Zeit noch viel andere solcher "Unmöglichkeiten"
> gesehen, um noch an die Wissenschaftlichkeit der meisten Wissenschaftler
> zu glauben. (Dies ist keine Kritik an der Wissenschaft, sondern an der
> Art und Weise wie sie gehandhabt wird).
>
> Wie bereitwillig sog. wissenschaftliche Erkenntnisse aufgenommen werden,
> wenn sie ein Weltbild bestätigen und wie bereit man ist dafür exakte
> Daten zu beugen, mag folgendes Beispiel zeigen:
> Wissenschaftlicher Standard ist es zu behaupten, die Indianer
> Nordamerikas wären vor ca. 30000 und letztlich vor 11000 Jahren auf den
> Kontinent eingewandert. Eine genetische Untersuchung in den 90ern
> belegte jedoch, daß einige Völker (Navajo, Haidas) viel näher mit den
> sibirischen Einwohnern verwandt sind. Diese Untersuchung wurde deshalb
> nicht anerkannt. Was die Völkerkundler allesamt verschweigen ist die
> Tatsache, daß diese Völker aus dem Norden die Hochseejagd auf Robben
> schon seit Jahrtausenden beherrschen, die Beringstraße nur 60 km breit
> ist (das gegenüberliegende Ufer ist bei klarem Wetter zu sehen) und noch
> in geschichtlicher Zeit durch *Aufzeichnungen* der <Hudson Bay Company>
> belegt ist, daß Verwandte auf beiden Seiten der Beringstraße sich
> gegenseitig besuchten und Handelsware mitbrachten. Im Winter kan man das
> gegenüberliegende Ufer in 3 Tagen zu Fuß erreichen. Es ist also eine
> wissentliche Lüge zu behaupten, die letzten Indianer seien zum Ende der
> letzten Eiszeit eingewandert.
>
> Vielleicht interessiert noch folgender Artikel, der einige Kritiker hier
> zusammenzucken läßt und sicherlich auch Delphi Twentine interessieren
> wird:
>
> | Nicht nur für subatomare Teilchen gelten die Gesetze der
> | Quantenmechanik. Auch makroskopische Gegenstände sollten
> | diesen Regeln folgen. Die dabei auftretenden Effekte wären
> | aber winzig und kaum messbar. Allerdings haben Wissenschaftler
> | jetzt ein Werkzeug entwickelt, um vielleicht doch noch der
> | geheimen *Quantennatur des Makrokosmos* auf die Spur zu...
> | http://www.wissenschaft-online.de/artikel/620917&template=d_nd_y
> (Betonung durch mich. Der Artikel ist leider nicht kostenfrei)
>
> Warum ich mich gerade so echauffiert habe? :-)
> Es ist diese Sucht nach Exaktheit! Da ich ja selbst Virgo bin, versuche
> ich mich immer aus diesen Fesseln zu befreien (VI -> PI). Ich begreife
> die Suche nach unerschütterliche Exaktheit als eine Art Selbstlüge, denn
> es gibt sie nicht! Ein Apfel mag, hochgeworfen, millionenmal zu Boden
> fallen und ich mag die Gesetzmäßigkeit mathematisch ausdrücken können,
> es ist und bleibt eine Erkenntnis im Rahmen der höchstmöglichen
> Plausibilität.
>
> > Jaaa, aber... Stonehenge wurde bestimmt zur Himmelsbeobachtung genutzt,
>
> Zu welchem Zweck? :-)
>
> > aber vielleicht ging es 'praktisch' nur um einen guten Kalender, um z.B.
> > Aussaatdaten zu bestimmen? Soll heißen, wir wissen nicht, mit wieviel
> > astronomischem/astrologischem Wissen die Warte betrieben wurde.
> > Naja, der Skeptiker in mir geht halt immer wieder mit mir durch! :-)
>
> Und dieser Skeptizismus läßt dir etliche Dinge übersehen. Er hält dich
> in der Spur und legt dir Scheuklappen an.
> Würde ich nur Daten benötigen, um einen einfachen Bauernkalender zu
> erstellen, dann muß ich nicht diesen Aufwand betreiben. Da reichen
> Holzstämme statt tonnenschwere Steine aus.
> Grundsätzlich baut in Stein nur der, der will, daß sein Werk sehr viele
> Generationen überdauert. Ein Observatorium aus Holz hält auch mindestens
> 100 Jahre und läßt sich viel besser korrigieren.
> Die Steine wurden nicht vor Ort geschlagen, sondern über zig Kilometer
> durchs unebenes Gelände und über eine Meeresbucht geschleift. Das
> schaffen keine hundert Mann (die ja auch ernährt sein wollen), sondern
> benötigt eine weitaus größere Organisation.
> Als Beispiel seine hier die Alignement (Steinreihen) in der Bretagne bei
> Carnac erwähnt. *Abertausende* tonnenschwere Steine stehen in mehreren
> Reihen parallel zu einander und enden gelegentlich in einem Steinkreis.
> Einige dieser Steine haben ein Gewicht von mehr als 300 (!) Tonnen.
> Als ich vor diesen Ungetümen stand, ist mir praktisch die Kinnlade
> runtergefallen und ich mußte erkennen, daß alle Autoren von
> wissenschaftlichen Abhandlungen, die ich bis dato zu diesem Thema
> gelesen habe, niemals an Ort und Stelle gewesen sein konnten.
>
> Nochmal zum Problem mit dem Stein als Baustoff. Wenn ich früher in der
> Schule einen Aufsatz schrieb, so habe ich normalerweise mit einem
> Bleistift angefangen zu schreiben, viel wieder rausradiert und dann ganz
> am Schluß mit einem Füller oder Kuli ins Reine geschrieben. Wer mit
> Stein baut, ist sich seiner Sache sicher. Da kann man nicht mehr viel
> korrigieren. Das Modell jedoch ist aus Holz. Und wenn unsere Altvorderen
> nicht gerade von einem anderen Stern gefallen sind, so werden sie es
> genauso gehandhabt haben.
> Wenn man mit Steinen "in Reine" baut, vor allem solche Anlagen, dann
> steht dahinter eine generationenlange Erfahrung; nicht nur in der
> Baukunst (was ja auch ne Wissenschaft ist), sondern auch im
> Verwendungszweck. Schließlich benötigt die 19-jährige Periodizität
> (MKn), die dieser Anlage zugrunde liegt, eine exakte Beobachtungzeit,
> die nicht von einer Person bewältigt werden kann. Bei 10
> Beobachtungsperioden bin ich bereits bei 190 Jahren. Und als sie "ins
> Reine" gebaut wurde, mußte zumindest eine Theorie (unreine Daten), also
> ebenfalls Beobachtungen über Generationen vorgelegen haben.
> (Der letzte Halbsatz kann jedoch gestrichen werden, wenn die Alten eine
> hohe Mathematik, die unserer gleichkommt, beherrschten.)
>
> Laut Platon waren es damals die besten Wissenschaftler, die die Welt
> aufbieten konnte. Und ihre Leistungen sind nicht vorstellbar, ohne ihnen
> eine Mathematik oder Schrift zuzubilligen. Zu behaupten, eine
> systematische Wissenschaftlichkeit (siehe 12er-Teilung) könne nur seit
> Babylon rep. Sumer existieren, hilft nur jenen wieder ins Boot, die die
> Erschaffung der Welt vor 6000 Jahren mit Adam und Eva propagieren. Und
> damit kann rückwärtsgerichteter Skeptizismus, wie er in weiten Teilen
> der Wissenschaften kultiviert wird, wieder zum Sprungbrett jener Geister
> werden, die gerne im Trüben fischen (Neo-Esos).
>
> Ich frage mich eher, was jene Leute beabsichtigen, die ein lineares
> Geschichtsbild fördern. Nach deren Ansicht sind wir in Europa und
> neuerdings in Amerika, ausgehend von Babylon über die Ägypter, der
> griechischen und römischen Antike (die Araber unterschlagend), die Krone
> der Schöpfung.
> Und so werden weiterhin Beweise (exaktes Wissen) unterschlagen, um diese
> Selbstbeweihräucherung nicht zu gefährten.
> An dieser Stelle setze *ich* meine Skepsis an.
>
> >> Ich habe das Winshop-Archiv in den letzten 24 Monaten quasi leergeräumt
> >> (über 400 Sterne und alle Texte auf englisch, hmmpf).
>
> > (Englisch ist doch klasse! Wäre Dir Arabisch oder auch sumerische
> > Keilschrift lieber gewesen? ;-) )
>
> Du wirst lachen! JA! ;-)
> Dann hätte ich wenigstens die Originaltexte.
> Und vor gut 35 Jahren konnte ich die ägyptischen Hieroglyphen und die
> Keilschrift besser lesen als englisch. Letzteres konnte ich nämlich gar
> nicht und habe es mir später selbst beigebracht.
>
> >> Hintergrund:
> >> Ich möchte herausfinden, ob es sich bei den Arabern um eine Fixstern-
> >> oder Wirkpunkt-Astrologie handelt. Ist es ersteres, dann wandern die
> >> Eigenschaften eines Ortes mit dem betreffenden Stern durch die TKZ. Ist
> >> es aber eine Wirkpunkt-Astrologie, dann bleiben die Wirkorte im Bezug
> >> zum synodischen TK stehen, wandern also nicht mit den Sternen mit. Der
> >> Stern Algol hätte also mittlerweile nicht mehr die Eigenschaft "Algol".
>
> > Ich hätte das jetzt nie in Zweifel gestellt, denn auch wenn ich mich damit
> > nicht auskenne, so denke ich doch, dass auch die siderische Astrologie ihre
> > Berechtigung hat.
>
> Meine Art des Skeptizismus! ;-)
>
> > Aber: Ungewöhnliche Hypothese, aber gerade deswegen desto
> > spannender. Gab es einen konkreten Anlaß dafür?
>
> GSPs und Kritische Grade. Sind diese fix oder bewegen sie sich?
> Für mich sind auch Döbi oder Roscher nicht zweifelsfrei. :-)
>
> > Grüße,
> > Martin
>
> Grüße ... Kalle

Subject: Re: Quellen historischer Astrologie
Date: Sat 19 Jul 2003 15:11:40 CEST
Newsgroups: de.alt.astrologie
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307190511.41ce0db1@posting.google.com>

Hannelore Goos <HGoos@boudicca.de> schrieb in
<ovhghvc8dm24cf1ga8q1vs7dia1q73s6gc@4ax.com>:

> Hallo Martin,
>
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:37:15 +0200, Martin Bechmann
> <martin.bechmann@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> >> Also wenn jemand eine Quelle kennt, dann muß sie schon wahrsagerische
> >> Fähigkeiten haben, denn die 12-Teilung dürfte noch bis in
> >> vorgeschichtliche Zeiten zurückzuführen sein.
> >
> >Das schließt aber nicht unbedingt aus, dass auch mal weniger
> >Sternzeichen verwendet wurden. Besonders gute Quellen habe ich auch
> >nicht, aber obiges habe ich auch schon desöfteren gehört. Eine
> >google-Recherche nach "libra 'part of scorpio'" fördert auch einige
> >Treffer zu Tage, z.B. http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Libra.html
>
> Fällt eigentlich niemandem auf, dass es außer dem WWW auch noch andere
> Quellen gibt?
> Der angeblich älteste Tierkreis enthält bereits 12 Symbole. Die
> Darstellung stammt aus West-Afrika (Bogaz Köi) und ist nachweislich
> mehr als 10 000  Jahre alt. Das Alter ist sicher, weil der Zeichnung
> ein Altbüffel zugrundeliegt, der bereits am Ende der Altsteinzeit
> ausgestorben is. Ob es sich bei den Zeichen um einen Tierkreis handelt
> ist weniger sicher.
> Quelle: L. Frobenius und H.Obermaier "Hadschra Maktouba"
>
> Der heutige Tierkreis wurde von den Ägyptern erfunden und in die
> sumerische Planetenastrologie eingeführt (Knappich, Geschichte der
> Astrologie).
>
> Dass es jemals weniger als 12 Sternzeichen gegeben habe soll, habe ich
> noch nie gehört oder gelesen. Handelt es sich nicht um eine
> Verwechslung mit dem Häusersystem? Tatsächlich hatten die Babylonier
> ein System der 8 "Wachen" statt unserer heutigen 12 Häuser.
> Gruß
> Hannelore Goos

Die Aussage, dass die Waage frueher die Scheren des Skorpions
waren, habe ich schon mehrfach gelesen, u.a. in Liz Greene's
"The Astrology of Fate" (im Abschnitt ueber die Waage). Wenn
ich meinen Notizen trauen kann, sagt sie dort sogar, dass es
die Waage im Sternkreis erst seit dem 2. Jahrhundert vor Chr.
gibt. Sie macht soweit ich mich erinnere keine Aussagen, ob
es frueher weniger als 12 Sternzeichen waren (oder doch 12,
aber einfach andere) und auch nicht darueber, seit wann es
eine Einteilung in 12 gleiche Teile gibt. Ob sie etwas sagt,
wer dem Skorpion die Scheren genommen hat, weiss ich nicht
mehr; wahrscheinlicher nicht.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Astrologie = Projektion?
Date: Mon 28 Jul 2003 14:39:22 CEST
Newsgroups: de.alt.astrologie
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307280439.e055587@posting.google.com>

Richard Vetter (RichardVetter@gmx.de) schrieb:
> Hallo allerseits,
>
> mich beschäftigt zur Zeit die Frage, ob es sich beim "astrologischen
> Wirkmechanismus" nicht hauptsächlich um einen Projektionsvorgang handelt,
> genauer: um eine Kollektivprojektion.
> Unsere Altvorderen malten ihre Innenvorgänge, innere Figuren und Abläufe an
> den Himmel, sie "sahen" dort etwas, das ihrem Inneren entstammte. Sie
> schrieben den äußeren Gestirnen Ursache und Verantwortung für die
> fundamentalen Lebensprozesse zu.*
> Die beobachtete Sinnhaftigkeit im Kosmos wäre so gesehen Ergebnis einer
> Attribution bzw. einer Verständigung der Menschen - darüber, was ein Planet,
> ein Zeichen/ eine Phase bedeutet.
> Eine Folgerung hieraus wäre, dass sich "Wahrheit" nur im Beratungsgespräch
> zeigt - wo sich Astrologe und Klient über die schicksalshafte Bedeutung
> einer Konstellation einigen (auf der Basis von tradiertem Erfahrungsschatz
> und aktueller Lebenswirklichkeit; Dialogkonsenskriterium). D.h. die
> astrologische Wahrheit ist eine subjektive bzw. intersubjektive; jedenfalls
> keine sog. "objektive"**, an äußeren Kriterien festzumachende (u.a. nicht
> statistisch überprüfbare - da es statistischen Untersuchungen an dem
> wesentlichen Moment der subjektiven Betroffenheit/ des individuellen
> Schicksalsbezugs mangelt).
> Astrologie ist ein Kulturgut, eine von Menschen entwickelte
> Schicksals-Deutungssprache, abhängig von den Einstellungen, Erwartungen und
> Bedürfnissen der jeweiligen Kultur. Die Sterne sind jedenfalls nichts per se
> "Wirksames" (auch Transite nicht). Astrologie ist ein Werkzeug, ein zu einem
> bestimmten Zweck nützliches Instrument; andere Kulturen (Indien, Amerika,
> China) entwickelten eine andere, jeweils auf sie passende Astrologie.
>
> * Die Frage nach dem astrologischen Wirkmechanismus wäre demnach eher eine
> Frage nach den sog. Archetypen - d.h. nach den Kräften, Faktoren, etc., die
> in der menschlichen Psyche wirksam sind.
>
> ** Wenn man über die naturwissenschaftliche "Objektivität" nachdenkt, merkt
> man bald, dass es sich dabei im Grunde auch nur um intersubjektive
> "Wahrheiten" handelt, d.h. um eine Verständigung der Wissenschaftler
> darüber, was "objektiv" sei bzw. dass ihre Apparate das Gewünschte
> tatsächlich messen.
>
> Für ein magisches Weltbild - wo das Innere dem Äußeren entspricht, das Obere
> dem Unteren, bzw. wo wir gar unsere Außenwelt aus dem Inneren stets neu
> erschaffen - ist ein solches Verständnis von der Astrologie eigtl. nicht
> verwunderlich. Dennoch erschreckt mich die Radikalität meines Denkansatzes -
> vielleicht wegen der damit verbundenen Verantwortung des Menschen oder weil
> man dann nichts "Äußeres", "Objektives" mehr hat zum Festhalten...
>
> Oder was denkt Ihr (Einwände, Anmerkungen, Ideen, Kritik)?
>
> Gruß,
> - Richard

Auch Hallo allerseits,

Ich moechte die Gelegenheit nutzen und die Dinge aus
meiner Sicht praesentieren, da ich dies bisher auf
deutsch nicht getan habe. Ich werde zuerst konkret
anfangen und dann schrittweise philosophischer werden.

Fuer Leute, die englisch lesen koennen, werde ich auch
Verweise auf meine englischen Newsgroup Posts und auf
meine auf dem Web veroeffentlichten Dokumente geben.
Ohne definitiv etwas versprechen zu koennen, plane ich
auch das Folgende in den naechsten Jahren in einer
Form zu veroeffentlichen, die nicht nur fuer Experten
zugaenglich ist; und zwar voraussichtlich parallel auf
englisch und auf deutsch und mit vielen Illustrationen,
fuer Leute, die nicht so gut abstrakt denken und sich
etwas vorstellen koennen, wie ein Physiker.

Also, zu den wesentlichen astrologischen Einsichten,
die ich vor etwas mehr als einem Jahr auf dem Internet
veroeffentlicht habe (http://www.exactphilosophy.net):

1. Sternzeichen durch Archetypen fuer die Elemente

Aristoteles sah die 4 Elemente zusammengesetzt aus den
fundamentaleren Gegensaetzen warm/kalt und trocken/feucht:

Feuer  = heiss+trocken
Luft   = feucht+heiss
Wasser = kalt+feucht
Erde   = trocken+kalt

Uebergaenge zwischen den Elementen sind moeglich und
gehen schneller falls nur eine Eigenschaft geflippt
werden muss, d.h. im Ring Feuer-Luft-Wasser-Erde-Feuer,
wohingegen die Umwandlung Feuer-Wasser resp.
Luft-Erde nur indirekt vonstatten gehen kann.

Referenz dazu: Aristoteles, "De Generatione et
Corruptione"; ich habe auf deutsch weder ein Buch
noch eine Kopie auf dem Web gefunden, daher hier ein
Link auf eine englische Kopie auf dem Web:
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8gc/
(das Obige ist v.a. in Buch II, Kapitel 2 und 3)

Davon ausgehend hatte ich im Februar 2001 die folgende
wesentliche Idee:

Die 3 Sternzeichen jedes der 4 Elemente, beschreiben
verschiedene Zustaende im Uebergang von einem Element
ueber das Eigene zu einem weiteren Element. Anstatt
das im Detail abstrakt zu formulieren, ist es wohl
einfacher einfach die vier Faelle aufzuzaehlen:

1a. Feuer

Hier ist der Uebergang, der von Holz (Erde) durch Feuer
zu Rauch (Luft). Widder, das erste Feuerzeichen im
Sternkreis, besteht daher v.a. aus Erde und aus wenig
Luft, der Loewe, aus etwa gleichen Anteilen von Erde
und Luft, und schliesslich der Schuetze v.a. aus
Luft und aus wenig Erde. D.h. die 3 Feuerzeichen werden
durch 3 Stadien im archetypischen Bild eines brennenden
Feuers beschrieben.

Was heisst das jetzt bezueglich den psychologischen
Eigenschaften der Feuerzeichen ? Dazu muss man einfach
die abstrakten Eigenschaften eines Feuers betrachten.
Holz (Erde) steht auch fuer den Koerper, d.h. durch
das Verbrennen entsteht eine Wunde, wie sie in der
psychologischen Astrologie mit dem Loewen (zum Beispiel
Gralskoenig) und dem Schuetzen verbunden wird (zum
Beispiel Chairon). Etwas abstrakter, sieht man, dass
die Vorstellungskraft des Feuers, den menschlichen
(d.h. sterblichen) Koerper verwandelt in Wissen (Luft),
das muendlich oder schriftlich an die naechsten
Generationen weitergegeben werden kann, und dadurch
unsterblich wird. D.h. man bekommt den symbolischen
Uebergang von Tier (Widder) zu Mensch (Loewe, auch
Koenig als Bindeglied) zu Gott (Zeus).

Daraus bekommt man eine ganze Reihe von sehr konkreten
psychologischen Aussagen: Je sterblicher man ist,
desto mehr muss man sein Wissen und seinen Besitz
schuetzen, desto sparsamer und verschlossener muss
man sein. Auch die Ungeduld des Widders ist verbunden
mit seiner hoeheren (symbolischen) Sterblichkeit als
der Schuetze. In diesem Modell, ist der Widder sogar
egoistischer als der Loewe, was sich aber weniger als
Problem aeussert, da erst der Loewe es lernen muss,
zwischen seinen Beduerfnissen (Erde) und denen anderer
(Luft) abzuwaegen.

1b. Luft

Luft habe ich schon in einem frueheren Post hier ganz
kurz beschrieben. Trotzdem nochmals: Das archetypische
Bild ist eine Wolke aus der sowohl Blitze (Feuer) als
auch Regen (Wasser) kommen. Mit anderen Worten, der
Uebergang ist von v.a. Feuer (Zwillinge) ueber ein
Gleichgewicht von Feuer und Wasser (Waage) zu v.a.
Wasser (Wassermann). Psychologisch sieht man dort, wie
in allen Elementen einen Uebergang von Kind ueber
Erwachsenen zu altem Menschen. Blitze oder eine Flamme
sind schnell und unvorhersehbar. Das wird mit den
Zwillingen assoziiert. Kinder spielen, d.h. sehen sich
unter Anderem die Dinge von vielen verschiedene Seiten
an, um sich ein Gesamtbild zu bilden. Erst im Kopf wird
aus den zwei Seiten einer Muenze ein einziges Ding, die
Muenze. Je aelter man wird, desto mehr Dinge in der
Welt werden als Variationen von bereits bekanntem
erkannt. Wassermann, das letzte Wasserzeichen, besteht
v.a. aus Wasser, das transparent ist. Der Regen behandelt
jeden gleich.

Zusammengefasst, sind die Vorhersagen, dass von Zwillingen
ueber Waage zu Wassermann, Transparenz und Kontinuiaet
zunimmt, aber auch Flexibilitaet und Anpassungsfaehigkeit
abnehmen.

1c. Wasser

Das archetypische Bild ist Eis (Erde), das durch Schmelzen
zu Wasser wird und anschliessend verdampft (Luft). Eng
verbunden damit, ist der Kreislauf des Wassers, von der
Quelle in den Bergen (Krebs, Gletscher, Schnee) ueber
einen Fluss (Skorpion) zum Meer, wo das Wasser wieder
verdampft (Fische). Vom kleinen Bach bis ins Meer werden
immer mehr verschiedene Einfluesse eingebunden. Kurz
gesagt, werden Grenzen aufgeloest: Wo der Krebs v.a.
versucht sich von zu vielen Einfluessen zu schuetzen,
erlaubt der Skorpion schon mehr, ist aber sehr skeptisch
und auch bereit zurueckzugeben, und die Fische lassen
eigentlich alle Einfluesse auf sich zu kommen.

Wiederum eng verbunden ist das wieder mit dem Leben,
diesmal einer Frau. Die 3 Schicksalgoettinnen sind
junge Frau (vor Geschlechtsreife), die sich noch nicht
Maennern hingibt, erwachsene Frau (Mondphase um den
Vollmond, entsprechend Bauch bei Schwangerschaft),
die sich schon Maennern oeffnet, aber sich auch zu
wehren oder raechen weiss, und dann die alte Frau, die
schon alles gesehen und daher auch verstehen und
verzeihen kann.

1d. Erde

Hier ist das archetypische Bild ein Baum, der sowohl
das Sonnenlicht (Feuer) von oben, als auch Wasser von
unten durch die Wurzeln braucht. Also ist der Uebergang
von Feuer (Stier) ueber Balance Feuer/Wasser (Jungfrau)
zu Wasser (Steinbock). Die Blaetter und Blueten oben
auf dem Baum sind schoen aber auch kurzlebig; die
Wurzeln ernaehren den Baum nicht nur, sie verhindern
auch, dass der Baum umfaellt und sind langlebiger
ueber mehrere Jahre vorhanden. D.h. Im Uebergang von
Stier ueber Jungfrau zu Steinbock wird Struktur und
Ordnung wichtiger als Schoenheit. Entsprechend wird
es in hoeherem Alter auch wichtiger sparsam mit
seinen (jetzt reduzierten) Ressourcen umzugehen
und dadurch auch mehr zu planen.

Interessant ist hier wiederum, dass in diesem Modell
der Steinbock als ordentlicher als die Jungfrau
beschrieben wird. Die Assoziation von Ordnung mit
Jungfrau, scheint also daher zu kommen, dass das
fuer die Jungfrau viel mehr ein Thema ist, da,
durch das Ausbalancieren von Schoenheit und Ordnung,
Ordnung oder nicht Ordnung viel mehr ein Thema ist
als fuer den Steinbock, wo die Entscheidung fuer
die Ordnung viel einfacher ist, und die Lust nur
dann zum Zug kommt, wenn fuer die Struktur schon
gesorgt wurde.

2. Planeten und Beziehungen

Hier moechte ich nicht zuviel sagen; ich bin mir auch
nicht bei allen Teilen ganz sicher, ob sie wirklich
zutreffen:

2a. Sonne im Geburtshoroskop: Wie man als Vater und
auch wie man gegenueber dem Vater ist. Wirkt sich auch
gleich aus bei Leuten mit entsprechenden Rollen, wie
z.B. als/gegenueber einem maennlichen Lehrer.

2b. Dasselbe mit Mond und Mutter.

2c. Mars/Venus: Wie man gegenueber maennlichen resp.
weiblichen Liebhabern ist.

2d. Merkur: Wie man gegenueber Geschwistern und auch
gegenueber Konkurenten in der Liebe ist.

3. Elemente und Zahlen (Aspekte) und die Welt

Die Zahlen 1,2,3,4 lassen sich am Besten wie folgt
mit der vier Elementen assoziieren:

1 - Feuer - individuelle Vorstellung
2 - Luft - logische Konsequenzen
3 - Wasser - kollektive Gefuehle/Wuensche
4 - Erde - Realitaet

Diese Zuordnung ist am Einfachsten ersichtlich aus den
Bedeutungen der Aspekte: Die Konjunktion (1) ist eine
Vereinigung, eine Verschmelzung (durch Waerme, Feuer)
von den verschiedenen Eigenschaften der beteiligten
Planeten auf ein einziges Ziel (jeweiliges Sternzeichen
oder ggf. auch 2). Opposition ist der Wettkampf zwischen
zwei (logischen) Gegensaetzen. Ein Trigon (3) ist zwar
harmonisch, aber auch recht passiv (Wasser). Ein Quadrat
kann man auch als Kreuz sehen, das abstrakte Bild fuer
einen Baum (Erde).

Man kann das Ganze auch mit den Sinnen assoziieren.
Diesmal in der umgekehrten Reihenfolge: Die Realitaet
(Erde) wird v.a. mit 2 Haenden plus 2 Fuessen beruehrt
(d.h. mit 4 Dingen). Ob etwas gut oder schlecht fuer
unseren Koerper ist, wird mit 2 Nasenloechern und mit
einer Zunge beurteilt (total 3, Wasser), und man weiss
erst nach dem Riechen oder Schmecken, ob es gut war,
d.h. dann ist es im schlimmsten Fall bereits zu spaet,
was recht gut zu der Skepsis des mittleren
Wasserzeichens, des Skorpions passt. Die zwei Ohren
sind auf gegenueberliegenden Seiten des Kopfes; die
Augen liefern ein Bild.

Ueber die philosophischen weiterfuerenden Ideen dazu
moechte ich weiter unten kommen.

Jetzt mal als Erstes zur Beweisbarkeit der Astrologie.
In meiner Einschaetzung als Experimentalphysiker mit
genuegend Erfahrung in der Astrologie, bestehen keine
wesentlichen Huerden mehr, die einem quantitativen
Beweis von einem vereinfachten Modell der Astrologie
(z.B. wie oben beschrieben) im Wege stehen wuerden.
Was noch fehlt, sind lediglich ein paar gute
Experimentalwissenschaftler und ein paar Jahre
sorgfaeltige Arbeit. Natuerlich wird es Probleme
geben, aber diese liessen sich soweit ich sehe mit
bekannten Techniken ueberwinden. Etwas experimentell
bestaetigen ist immer mit einem gewissen Aufwand und
mit Hindernissen verbunden, aber das gehoert zum
Handwerk.

Jetzt zum "Wirkmechanismus", den ich postuliert hatte:
(siehe http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf;
N.B.: Liest sich am Angenehmsten ausgedruckt oder mit
Adobe Reader Version 6; mit frueheren Versionen werden
die Buchstaben eher schlecht dargestellt).

Die wesentliche Idee ist, dass Menschen gefuehlsmaessig
auch ueber groessere Distanzen verbunden sind. Bevor
ich zu einem moeglichen Mechanismus dafuer komme, zu
den unmittelbaren Konsequenzen, die das haben wuerde:

Diese Beziehungen wuerden alle Menschen verbinden, d.h.
ein viel groesseres Gehirn bilden, das sich Archetypen
schon viele Jahrtausende merken koennte und durch seine
(kollektiven) Gedanken, Ideen, Absichten, Gefuehle,
wiederum die einzelnen Menschen beinflussen wuerde.
In dem Sinn, waere die kollektive Vorstellung der
Astrologie kollektiv in allen Menschen vorhanden,
allerdings meist unbewusst, weswegen sich Astrologie
auch bei den Leuten auswirkt, die bewusst nicht an sie
glauben, resp. die Symbole bewusst nicht lesen koennen.

Es waeren natuerlich auch lokale Variationen denkbar;
es ist nicht zwingend so, dass es langreichweitige
Verbindungen zwischen Menschen gibt. Man koennte sich
Informationen ueber Geburtdatum etc. auch unbewusst mit
Gesten oder Tonfall etc. uebermitteln. Um diese zwei
Hypothesen experimentell zu unterscheiden, koennte man
untersuchen, wie stark sich Astrologie auf Menschen
auswirkt, die ueber Jahre keinen Kontakt mit Menschen
haben, weil sie z.B. irgendwo in der Wildnis leben.

Trotzdem zu einem moeglichen Mechanismus: Fuer Leute,
die nicht Physiker sind, mag es sehr erstaunlich
erscheinen, dass ich elektrostatische Kraefte als
moeglichen Mechanismus vorschlage, wo doch jeder, der
ein Radio mit Antenne hat oder ein Handy, weiss wie
leicht es doch scheinbar ist, elektromagnetische
Wellen abzuschirmen...

Das trifft zwar in den Faellen praktisch zu, ist aber
(wenigstens strikt nach der Theorie) nicht wirklich
der Fall. In einem Metallkasten (Faraday Kaefig), hat
es kein Feld (keine elektrische Kraft), und zwar
nicht wegen Abschirmung, sondern weil sich die freien
Ladungen (Elektronen) auf der Metalloberflaeche so
umverteilen, dass sich ein Gegenfeld bildet, das das
urspruengliche Feld genau aufhebt. In der Newtonschen
Mechanik summiert man einfach ueber die Massenpunkte
um die totale Kraft zu bekommen, es gibt a Priori
keine Abschirmung.

Natuerlich ist die Summe aller Kraefte das was man in
einem Experiment messen kann, man kann dort nicht mehr
aufteilen. Allerdings gibt es in der Quantenmechanik
bekannte Effekte, die allein vom Potential abhaengen
und nicht von der Kraft (Ableitung/Aenderung des
Potentials), z.B. Aharonov-Bohm Effekt.

Ich moechte hier nicht weiter auf die physikalischen
Moeglichkeiten eingehen; in meinem Dokument deute ich
noch etwas mehr an, oder auch in diesem Post, der auch
auf weitere Posts und andere Quellen verweist:

http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220049.375ba38%40posting.google.com

> mich beschäftigt zur Zeit die Frage, ob es sich beim "astrologischen
> Wirkmechanismus" nicht hauptsächlich um einen Projektionsvorgang handelt,
> genauer: um eine Kollektivprojektion.
> Unsere Altvorderen malten ihre Innenvorgänge, innere Figuren und Abläufe an
> den Himmel, sie "sahen" dort etwas, das ihrem Inneren entstammte. Sie
> schrieben den äußeren Gestirnen Ursache und Verantwortung für die
> fundamentalen Lebensprozesse zu.*
> Die beobachtete Sinnhaftigkeit im Kosmos wäre so gesehen Ergebnis einer
> Attribution bzw. einer Verständigung der Menschen - darüber, was ein Planet,
> ein Zeichen/ eine Phase bedeutet.

Aus meiner Sicht ist Astrologie hauptsaechlich das
Resultat einer kollektiven Einigung. *Aber*: Damit
die Leute kollektiv zustimmen, muss das Modell andere
Modelle verdraengen, muss also den Leuten besser
gefallen. Das koennen Gruende innerer Stimmigkeit
und auch Anpassung an die Lebensumstaende sein.
Beides kann echte Einsichten in die Natur enthalten,
die auch heute noch relevant sein koennen.

Als Beispiel fuer die Anpassung an die Lebensumstaende,
moechte ich nur die recht offensichtliche Anpassung der
Sternzeichen an die Jahreszeiten und bauerliche
Taegtigkeiten erwaehnen (z.B. Jungfrau die gerne die
Ernte sortiert, Waage die die Vorraete durch Handel
ausgleicht, etc.)

Als Einsichten in tiefere Geheimnisse, in allgemeine
Zyklen, ist vielleicht dies mein bester Kandidat,
obwohl ich dort noch nichts fuer entschieden halte:
Charles Harvey hat folgenden Artikel ueber Aspekte
zwischen Sonne und Neptun geschrieben:

http://www.astrology-world.com/articles/harvey.html

Er verbindet auseinandergehende Sonne-Neptun Quadrate
(z.B. C.G. Jung) damit kollektives Wissen im Individum
zu entwickeln, was sich sehr gut in Jungs Werk zeigt,
das nur so von verschiedensten komplexen Begriffen
strotzt. In zusammenkommenden Quadraten, sieht Harvey
dagegen, die wesentlichen neuen Ideen wieder kollektiv,
d.h. allen, zugaenglich zu machen. Das betrifft (wie
jeden etwa 36. Menschen) auch ihn selbst oder auch mich,
aber passt eben auch fast exakt bei Leuten wie Francesco
Petracra oder Proclus, die schon lange vor der Entdeckung
des Neptun gelebt haben. Das ist fuer mich bisher das
Einzige was fuer mich gefuehlsmaessig fuer Planeten
*weit* vor ihrer *moeglichen* Entdeckung zutrifft.

Natuerlich haben verschiedene Kulturen auch eine recht
verschiedene Astrolgie. In dem Sinn ist viel Kultur
in der Astrologie viel kollektive Ubereinkunft, aber
die Bausteine, aus denen die Systeme bestehen und die
generelle Art in der sie zusammengesetzt werden, sind
recht aehnlich, und daher auch fuer Naturwissenschaftler
sehr interessant (finde ich wenigstens).

> Eine Folgerung hieraus wäre, dass sich "Wahrheit" nur im Beratungsgespräch
> zeigt - wo sich Astrologe und Klient über die schicksalshafte Bedeutung
> einer Konstellation einigen (auf der Basis von tradiertem Erfahrungsschatz
> und aktueller Lebenswirklichkeit; Dialogkonsenskriterium). D.h. die
> astrologische Wahrheit ist eine subjektive bzw. intersubjektive; jedenfalls
> keine sog. "objektive"**, an äußeren Kriterien festzumachende (u.a. nicht
> statistisch überprüfbare - da es statistischen Untersuchungen an dem
> wesentlichen Moment der subjektiven Betroffenheit/ des individuellen
> Schicksalsbezugs mangelt).

Wie oben dargelegt, bin ich mir recht sicher, dass sich
ein einfaches Modell der Astrologie durchaus quantitativ
belegen liesse; "wir muessen nur wollen", wie die Gruppe
"Wir sind Helden" im Moment in den Hitparaden singt. Uebrigens,
ich bin geboren am 7. August 1966 um 4:12 morgens in
Zuerich (Schweiz); das ist an einem Sonntag morgen, oder
am Ende einer Samstagnacht im "Summer of Love", nur ein
paar Wochen nach der letzten Uranus-Pluto Konjunktion
in der Jungfrau.

Da ich mein Geburtsdatum schon auf englisch veroeffentlicht
habe und seither nicht mehr unter meinem richtigen Namen
Newsgroup Posts mache, kann ich mir es wohl auch hier
trotz meinem Mond im Widder erlauben, es offen zu legen,
auch da ich hier doch substanziell und konkret neue Ideen
zur Astrologie und mehr vorlege...

Da ich aus der Generation mit Pluto in der Jungfrau bin,
die noch nicht entscheidet, was wir notwendig "werden
wollen muessen", wird das wohl eher von den kommenden
Generationen (Pluto in den Herbstzeichen Waage, Skorpion,
und Schuetze) in den naechsten etwa 10-30 Jahren
entschieden werden. Ich halte es fuer wahrscheinlich,
dass in diesem Zeitraum die Astrologie wissenschaftlich
bewiesen wird, obwohl das werden eben andere entscheiden.
Jedenfalls ist es auch wichtig, sich trotz dem grossen
Wiederstand gegen experimentelle Bestaetigung, sich auch
der Gefahren bewusst zu sein, die eine zu ploetzliche
und naive Anwendung der Astrologie als Wissenschaft und
damit auch als Technologie auf alle Bereiche des Lebens
haben koennte. In dem Sinn sollte die noch verbleibende
Zeit wohl auch damit genutzt werden, die Konsequenzen
abzuschaetzen...

> Astrologie ist ein Kulturgut, eine von Menschen entwickelte
> Schicksals-Deutungssprache, abhängig von den Einstellungen, Erwartungen und
> Bedürfnissen der jeweiligen Kultur. Die Sterne sind jedenfalls nichts per se
> "Wirksames" (auch Transite nicht). Astrologie ist ein Werkzeug, ein zu einem
> bestimmten Zweck nützliches Instrument; andere Kulturen (Indien, Amerika,
> China) entwickelten eine andere, jeweils auf sie passende Astrologie.

Nach meinem Postulat, wuerde jeder Mensch konstant die
emotionalen Kraefte fuehlen, oder wie Jung es ausgedrueckt
hat, frei sein "das gerne zu machen, das ich machen muss".
Mit dem Rest stimme ich ueberein, mit den Qualifikationen
gemaess Oben.

> ** Wenn man über die naturwissenschaftliche "Objektivität" nachdenkt, merkt
> man bald, dass es sich dabei im Grunde auch nur um intersubjektive
> "Wahrheiten" handelt, d.h. um eine Verständigung der Wissenschaftler
> darüber, was "objektiv" sei bzw. dass ihre Apparate das Gewünschte
> tatsächlich messen.

Im Prinzip bin ich einverstanden. Allerdings ist es schwer
zu beurteilen, wieso die meisten Menschen der Annahme
zustimmen, dass fast alle Menschen eine Anzeigenadel eines
Messgeraetes gleich ablesen wuerden. Die Wissenschaft
versucht immerhin sich auf den minimalsten gemeinsamen
Nenner an Erfahrung (unter praktisch allen Menschen) plus
die Anerkennung der Logik abzustuetzen. Aber es bleibt
fundamental eine kollektive Einigung, das kann man nicht
wegdiskutieren.

Aehnlich ist es in der Mathematik, die auf ein paar
Axiomen oder Definitionen aufbaut, die so gewaehlt sind,
dass ihre Konsequenzen (d.h. Theoreme etc.) so werden,
wie man sie erwartet. Und man muss auch mit Goedels
Einschraenkungen leben, naemlich dass es in jedem
solchen mathematischen System Dinge gibt, die wahr oder
falsch sein koennen, und sich trotzdem im System weder
belegen noch wiederlegen lassen (das trifft auch fuer
die Mathematik als Ganzes zu). Hauptursache hier ist
das Problem der Luftzeichen sich selbst in ihre
objektiven Betrachtungen einzubeziehen. Einfachstes
Beispiel mit logischen Problemen sobald Selbstbezug:
"Dieser Satz hat fuenf Worte" (wahr); "Dieser Satz
hat nicht fuenf Worte" (Gegenteil vom ersten Satz,
aber auch wahr).

Nochmals meine postulierte Einteilung der Welt in
vier Schalen:

1 - Feuer - individuelle Vorstellung
2 - Luft - logische Konsequenzen
3 - Wasser - kollektive Gefuehle/Wuensche
4 - Erde - Realitaet

Astrologie beschaeftigt sich viel mit kollektiven
Wuenschen (Wasser), mit zwischenmenschlichen Problemen,
und enthaelt auch viel individuelle Vorstellung (Feuer),
obwohl man generell versucht das zu vermeiden.

Eine wissenschaftliche Theorie (in den exakten
Wissenschaften) ist Logik/Mathematik (Luft) basierend
auf Realitaet (Erde).

Das 4. Element ist unabhaengig von den Gedanken der
Menschen, koennte aber auch als kollektive Wuensche
in einem groesseren Sinn (d.h. die Natur als Ganzes
einschliessendes) betrachtet werden.

Damit sollte ich wohl schliessen, es ist schon so ein
sehr langer Post geworden.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Reflections - 70642
Date: Tue 29 Jul 2003 05:45:18 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0307280948.25716ff6@posting.google.com>

Reflections - 70642

Hi there.

This is reflection 5 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).

Since it is summer and holidays, I have prepared this
reflection already a week ago, as well as the one that
will follow two weeks from now - enjoy...

For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com

This time I did not toss any coins, but rather used
the number of the star HD 70642 that is about 94
light years away and was recently discovered to be
circled by a Jupiter-like planet (see recent thread
in this group). Somehow using a star (sun) seemed
appropriate for the middle of summer; and I think
the corresponding paragraph fits that too:

(Section 3.10 Astrological Ages)
> Note also that the discoveries presented here have yet
> to be quantitatively verified and, although I think
> that at the very least H14b together with the four basic
> pictures for the elements (fire, cloud, river, tree)
> in conjunction with H19 is true, some associative
> "conclusio*n*s" that I have made may turn out to be
> biased or even false.

This is related to hypothesis H19 (at the beginning
of section 3):
> H19 Ancient greek philosophy is based on language.
> If two objects share an adjective, there is believed
> to be a connection.

This has probably a lot to do with psychology, with
how information is stored in our brains. Let's take
an example, take the nouns "cloud", "snow", "grass"
and colors as adjectives: "white", "green" and "red".

Those can be written in a matrix, with an "X" if the
noun has the corresponding color:

       cloud   snow   grass
white    X       X      -
green    -       -      X
red      -       -      -

(I know, sometimes clouds can be red, but let me
get to these more special cases a bit later...)

Now in the above matrix, there is an association
between the nouns "cloud" and "snow", because they
are both "white". That is usually how astrologers
fit a myth, for example, to what a client tells.

Imagine, there was a star sign "snow leopard",
that would (among other things) be associated
with "snow". Imagine further that a client, with
planet X in "snow leopard" tells you about a dream
with lots of large, white clouds. Then you might
connect this to "snow" because both "clouds" and
"snow" are "white" and hence to the client's
planet X sign. Of course, you would not judge
things based on just one association, but rather
search for the best fit with most associations
to myths and other associations you have learned
with the "snow leopard" and with other signs.

In other words, you would be using a much bigger
matrix than the one above, but essentially still
a matrix. Now, every astrologer has his or her
own personal matrix, although they all share some
elements. Czech writer Milan Kundera calls this
"poetic memory". The meaning of a word like
"mother" or "dog" is very subjective and strongly
connected to the circumstances in which one has
encountered these words, and probably mostly
also with the circumstances of the first contact
(which gives it also an astrological connection).

Milan Kundera gives several examples in his maybe
best known book, "The Unbearable Lightness of
Being". You may have seen the movie, which caused
Kundera to write his next novel "The Immortality"
in such a way that it would be impossible to make
a movie out of it. I can understand this, but I
must also say that without having seen the movie, I
would never have bought the book and hence missed
quite a few very good things. His books are mostly
a mixture of novel accompanied by psychological
analysis, I guess mostly influenced by Jung.

I associate "associating" itself with Fire and Water.
Fire is visual imagination, where you imagine
a cloud with its color. In a visual picture, you
can see many things at once and compare them.
In purely logical thinking (Air), you have a
strict timely evolution "if a cloud is white and
snow is white, then there is a connection between
snow and clouds" - how much more direct is it to
imagine a sunny winter's day with white snow and
bright white clouds above it.

Water is about feelings, about relations to people.
A relation is a connection between two things, an
association. In that sense, I think that a lot in
astrology is about Fire and Water. In an exact
science, like physics, the physical theories are
mathematical constructions (logic, Air) based on
experiment (reality, Earth).

There is also the difference between a sceptic and
a good researcher in physics. The researcher spends
just as much time trying to find new and interesting
associations, as he spends on sceptically testing
them afterwards. A sceptic is typcially bound too
much to the Earth, is too much afraid to loose
contact to the ground; and from this fear, I think,
often also comes the aggression that sceptics often
show towards new ideas.

Well, maybe I can take away a bit of that fear, by
explaining how I do it, how I managed to think about
scientifically unverified phenomena like telepathy
or astrology without getting lost.

**************************************************
The trick is actually very simple: Whenever I hear
something, I remember the circumstances.
**************************************************

Say, I hear on TV that Virgo and Leo were once seen
as a single constellation. Stuff on TV is not always
fully trustworthy, so a sceptic would either have to
immediately verify that information from trusted
sources or discard it as worthless. I, in turn, can
use this information as is, and if I can combine it
with other pieces of information to find something
interesting, I only *then* go back and make sure that
my information is really trustworthy (with the risk
that sometimes I have to discard the whole new idea
because one of the building blocks was not a fact).

I am running out of space, so let me just quickly
keep my promise: A cloud can sometimes be red, but
then mostly near sunrise or sunset. In other words,
the assocation "cloud"-"red" is only correct if you
add a second noun, either "sunrise" or "sunset".

Maybe I can talk another time about the chances and
risks of trying to put the universal matrix of all
words into the computer and then trying to use the
computers to match associations (and why possibly
today's computers might not be able to do that well).

Thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD
Date: Sat 2 Aug 2003 09:05:10 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-63891F.08353602082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Larry Swain" (l.c.swain@worldnet.att.net) wrote:

> I'm certainly not dissing stellar parans, as I find them to be immensely
> useful. But astrology evolved from stellar astrology into horoscopic
> astrology, not the otjher way around. Parans, along with the Heliacal
> Rising and Setting Stars, give much more depth and quality to horoscopic,
> tropical astrology, but they do NOT imo supercede it!

Hard to tell where things come from and where they go.
Bernadette Brady is using 64 stellar parans (according
to the ASTRO LOGOS website - in her book she apparently
was only using 60, according to the table of contents).
Now, 64 = 8 x 8, which reminds of a chess board (Russia)
and the number of symbols in the I Ching (China), and
also of the fact that Uranus is the 8th planet. This
fits well with Australia's emphasis on the axis Aqu-Leo
(claimed 1770-08-22 for the crown, birthday 1788-01-26),
and also with the fact that it is an eastern continent
(as its name implies), but mostly inhabited by people
from the west. So there may be a fusion between east
and west in the running, with possibly even noticable
influence on astrology in the age of Aquarius, but,
of course, it is a bit early to judge that. I am sure
there will be quite a few more contenders for that...

delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD
Date: Sat 2 Aug 2003 10:10:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-5113C1.09562702082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> My mother pulled out a pistol and popped my cat when I was 4 yrs old. If she
> had not been allowed to have that gun it would have never happened to me.

Excuse me if I intervene - do you know the birth
date of Texas ? Texas has always reminded me of a
young Leo that has not yet learned much compassion
with others. Apollon can kill or cure accurately
with his dreaded arrows, and in his youth he does
it also sometimes out of egoistic reasons, like
when he unfairly beat Marsyas in a music contest
(Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 21e-g).

I see the same symbols here, the cat (Leo), sudden
instinctive killing. Texas is probably about 200
years old, quite little compared to my home country,
Switzerland, which is more than 700 years old.
In the past, Swiss mercenaries were used all over
Europe by all kinds of countries. That ended in
when mercenaries at one battle refused to fight,
because there were mainly Swiss mercenaries on
both sides. Later on, Switzerland became important
in the founding of the Red Cross. In that sense,
Switzerland was also involved in the recent war in
Iraq, for example by restoring basic water supply
in Basrah early in the war, thus moderating the
effects of the war somewhat.

I have a semi-automatic gun from the Swiss army
with 24 shots, but they are sealed in a can, and
if I returned it opened, I would be in quite some
trouble. That puts a barrier in front of using
the gun, makes it more difficult to use it just
out of an instinctive impulse, but still people
get shot by this kind of gun. On the other hand,
if there was an actual invasion in Switzerland,
people would immediately be able to fight back.

I have no clear opinion about how much and in what
form to limit use of fire arms, but maybe the most
helpful thing would be individual evolution to
only consciously and moderately using fire arms.
(In Zurich, there is a sculpture of Charles the
Great, where he is sitting with his sword across
his knees. He does not look like he would use the
sword just out of anger, but if somebody really
attacked him, he could get up and would know how
to defend himself. In that sense, "Don't mess with
Texas" is maybe also a bit an expression of the
insecurity of a young man, Leo. In that sense,
strength maybe optimally lies rather in developing
the ability to use a fire arm, but more of often
than not, in not having to actually use it against
people, because the other side will know that too.)

Just my two cents (Venus in Leo),

delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD
Date: Sun 3 Aug 2003 00:20:21 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-1FD933.21523402082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Thanks a lot for the nice reply and the analysis.
Feels like it explains things sufficiently.
My abilities to analyze and remember lots of
details are quite limited, so I cannot compete
with professional astrologers, except sometimes
on a specific issue, if I invest lots of time
and energy. Doing that is also not what I think,
I should normally do. I see things maybe a bit
like the trick that the physicist Richard Feynman
described about how people manage to win money
in Las Vegas, even though the casinos take great
care that in all games the odds are against you:
You simply make bets with people who are playing
and thinking that they will win - then the odds
are in your favour. (It seems that there are
people who can make a living that way, or at
least there have been in 1960s or so).

In that sense, presenting a selective piece
of astrological analysis to somebody who does
not know much about astrology can have quite
a destructive effect if one is unlucky, but
when offering such impulses to professional
astrologers and counselors, there should usually
be little danger...

In that sense, here is my info about the history
of Switzerland and then one or two more general
thoughts that may be useful or maybe not so much:

I was using the mythological founding date of
August 1st, 1291. According to the legend (at
least the way I remember it), three people from
different states in the mountains in what is now
central Switzerland, met on the morning of one
of the first days of August in 1291 and put up 3
fingers each to swear to stand in unison against
Habsburg (That would put the sun and a few more
planets into Leo and the moon into Libra).

There is a written document of similar content
that is dated with "in the year of the Lord 1291
at the beginning of the month of August" (in a
recent post here, I had mistakenly remembered
this document to be from September 1291).

Anyway, here is the english translation of the
document: http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/schweiz/bundesbrief

And here is my recent post, which is maybe a
bit too much of artistic nature to be really
helpful in analysis (also Jupiter opp. Neptune):
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting
..google.com
(Sorry, my news program will probably split that
into two lines; usually I post through google
where this does not happen, but since a few days,
groups.google.com refuses to post to aat...)

In some sense there are similarities between
Switzerland and the USA. Switzerland managed to
gain quite a bit of independence, initially by
wars, from the German Empire, and to establish
some early democratic structures, although, being
a relatively small country, it remained officially
part of the German Empire until, I guess, the
19th century.

One more thing about fire arms: I think the problem
is similar to terrorism, only on a smaller scale.
It is the problem that, because of technology, an
individual or a small group can do lots of damage
with relatively little effort. Astrologically,
that might be connected to the fire-air axes, to
finding a balance between impulse and reason.

delphi29@excite.com


Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> in article delphi29-5113C1.09562702082003@news.bluewin.ch, Delphi Twentine
> at delphi29@excite.com wrote on 8/2/03 3:10 AM:
>
> > Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> >> My mother pulled out a pistol and popped my cat when I was 4 yrs old. If
> >> she
> >> had not been allowed to have that gun it would have never happened to me.
> >
> > Excuse me if I intervene - do you know the birth
> > date of Texas ?
>
> December 29th, 1845.
>
> > Texas has always reminded me of a
> > young Leo that has not yet learned much compassion
> > with others. Apollon can kill or cure accurately
> > with his dreaded arrows, and in his youth he does
> > it also sometimes out of egoistic reasons, like
> > when he unfairly beat Marsyas in a music contest
> > (Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 21e-g).
>
> My mother was a Leo with her Pluto at 0 Cancer on my Saturn at 1 Cancer. She
> had Mars conjunct Saturn in Gemini.
>
> Texas has Sun in Capricorn opp my Venus and it has a Moon in Capricorn. Mars
> is conjunct Uranus in Aries, so never expect to see any gun prohibition
> here. It is all tied to the ego and rash actions.
>
> Austin is also a Capricorn with Moon conjunct my Moon at 5 Libra.  So this
> is where I make my home (Moon).
>
> >
> > I see the same symbols here, the cat (Leo), sudden
> > instinctive killing. Texas is probably about 200
> > years old, quite little compared to my home country,
> > Switzerland, which is more than 700 years old.
>
> Before the time of Christ I read. But with the Swiss confederation, it is
> about the same age as Texas. Correct?
>
> Switzerland is a Virgo with a Pisces Moon and Venus conjunct Mars in Libra.
> September 12, 1848. Is this the birth data that you use?
>
> > In the past, Swiss mercenaries were used all over
> > Europe by all kinds of countries. That ended in
> > when mercenaries at one battle refused to fight,
> > because there were mainly Swiss mercenaries on
> > both sides. Later on, Switzerland became important
> > in the founding of the Red Cross. In that sense,
> > Switzerland was also involved in the recent war in
> > Iraq, for example by restoring basic water supply
> > in Basrah early in the war, thus moderating the
> > effects of the war somewhat.
> >
> > I have a semi-automatic gun from the Swiss army
> > with 24 shots, but they are sealed in a can, and
> > if I returned it opened, I would be in quite some
> > trouble. That puts a barrier in front of using
> > the gun, makes it more difficult to use it just
> > out of an instinctive impulse, but still people
> > get shot by this kind of gun. On the other hand,
> > if there was an actual invasion in Switzerland,
> > people would immediately be able to fight back.
>
> Impulse is the real issue and the Mars conjunct Uranus in Aries for the
> Texas chart is no small problem in my estimation.
>
> Those Swiss are so smart. I loved visiting there. So beautiful, so clean, so
> orderly and so uh... civilized. :)  Just like a Virgo with a Pisces Moon. ;)
>
> >
> > I have no clear opinion about how much and in what
> > form to limit use of fire arms, but maybe the most
> > helpful thing would be individual evolution to
> > only consciously and moderately using fire arms.
> > (In Zurich, there is a sculpture of Charles the
> > Great, where he is sitting with his sword across
> > his knees. He does not look like he would use the
> > sword just out of anger, but if somebody really
> > attacked him, he could get up and would know how
> > to defend himself. In that sense, "Don't mess with
> > Texas" is maybe also a bit an expression of the
> > insecurity of a young man, Leo. In that sense,
> > strength maybe optimally lies rather in developing
> > the ability to use a fire arm, but more of often
> > than not, in not having to actually use it against
> > people, because the other side will know that too.)
>
> Well I think the Mars conjunct Uranus in Aries says it all with a Capricorn
> Sun and Moon. Just brimming with warmth and compassion. :I  No, "Do Not Mess
> with Texas" or anybody in Texas because you might get a bullet as evidenced
> last week with the poor guy whose dogs barked too much.
>
> There are some days when I think this still is the wild west. Combine the
> number of guns in the hands of the mentally compromised, add in some road
> rage in the summer, and woweee...!!! Hot time in the old town!
>
> Then there is Austin's Venus conjunct Jupiter in Scorpio. :) And Mars
> conjunct Neptune in Aquarius. "Keep Austin Weird" is the latest catch phrase
> and bumper sticker. :) I don't think they have to worry. It will STAY weird.
>
> >
> > Just my two cents (Venus in Leo),
>
> Interesting viewpoint and welcome to hear how those folks outside our
> borders view our gun issues. I read that they passed the gun laws in NY
> state because the police said they were all going to quit unless something
> was done to keep the bad guys from having bigger and better weapons than
> them.
>
> A recent chat with a local sheriff's deputy here in my neighborhood said
> that he would feel a lot safer doing his job if every wacko in this town did
> NOT have a gun.
>
> >
> > delphi29@excite.com
> > --
> > keyword: exactphilosophy


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
 Will have to check out the problem with google groups...thanks! SES

Subject: Re: BB's Prediction CD
Date: Mon 4 Aug 2003 10:45:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-9227A3.09564704082003@news.bluewin.ch>

John Roth (newsgroups@jhrothjr.com) wrote:
> More interesting is a paper, hot off the presses (I saw the note
> on Slashdot) that points out that we can't know the **exact** location
> of anything in time or space, an observation that has rather interesting
> consequences, and is much more profound than the Heisenberg Uncertainty
> Principle (which sets limits on the joint certainty in time and space, and
> only
> applies at very small time and distance scales.)
>
> From this, the author actually solves Zeno's Paradox!
>
> http://science.slashdot.org/science/03/08/03/029213.shtml?tid=134
>
> Pretty strange stuff going on in physics these days...

Thanks a lot for the hint. I was so bold to post a
question about the referenced scientific paper to
sci.physics.research. With the moon at what I call
the "decision point", between Libra and Scorpio,
I am both quite suspicious and cautiously optimistic.

Things that make me suspicious: The author, Peter
Lynds (27) from Wellington, seems to be working as
a broadcasting instructor. Could this be a practical
demonstration of how to use the media efficiently ?
But, of course, a scientific paper should not at all
be judged by the profession of its author, but only
by its content. Since it seems to make the most
specific predictions in some more "exotic" and more
recent areas of modern physics, it appears like a
good idea to let people at sci.physics.research
give their opinion. Some info about the newsgroup:
It is moderated and mainly visited by researchers
(that also shows in relatively slow moderation, I
guess mostly during regular work hours of the
moderators, so expect my post to appear sometime
today (US), but maybe even later). The first post
to the group appeared 1993-02-17 at 13:14:29 PST:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=16FEB199314180608%40csa2.lbl.gov
(according to the above message ID, it was posted
about a day earlier, from the Lawrence Berkley
National Laboratory (CA))

About fate: My next reflection, which I wrote two
weeks ago and which will appear next monday, also
deals with some aspects of fate, although not in
a very analytical manner. There are some quite
specific ideas about the "practical aspects" of
fate in my discoveries document, in fact those
where the ones that got me into astrology in the
first place. When the coins will point there, I
will probably reflect about them here...
(As maybe expected, they leave practically all
of the philosophical questions open).

delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy

Subject: Re: BB's Prediction CD
Date: Mon 4 Aug 2003 21:20:09 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-F934B0.20162904082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Sharyn (sharyn721@adelphia.not) wrote:
> "Richard Nolle" <rnolle@astropro.com> wrote in message
> news:3F2E6A67.B5D98418@astropro.com...
> > Larry Swain wrote:
> [...] Maybe semantics is destiny
> > . . .
> >
> heh...
>
> "Do you see that kitten chasing so prettily her own tail? If you could look
> with her eyes, you might see her surrounded with hundreds of figures
> performing complex frames, with tragic and comic issues, long conversations,
> many characters, many ups and downs of fate." -Emerson

Wow! To me that's the best description so far;
and it looks like Pete P was head on again...

(I you want to know why, read on. But maybe that
destroys the beauty of the picture too much, so
feel also free to skip the next paragraph.)

The sun* goes in a circle, seen from earth it
appears to move on its own, at a constant pace.
What sense could that make, looks like going
in circles without purpose. But on the circle,
there is the whole world, all the 12 signs of
the zodiac, and at every turn the planets are
at different spots, so it never becomes boring,
even if some events feel similar. Sometimes,
there are even new planets...

delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy

* sun-leo-cat

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and OT: Guns
Date: Tue 5 Aug 2003 15:15:04 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-C9BD16.06274705082003@news.bluewin.ch>

doovi@webtv.net (doovinator) wrote:
> Well, a year in the canoe club doesn't really make me a "military guy",
> I don't think; I'm referring to people like me who've had military
> training, but not necessarily a military career. I doubt many would be
> seriously opposed to current gun laws.
>
> DJ

I don't know how it is in the US. I can only speak
from my personal experience (in Switzerland, it is
still obligatory to go to the military). I have
never been in a war, but I have thrown maybe 50
life hand grenades in my life, mostly in a situation
of combat, with other people around me, with loaded
fire arms and other hand grenades. You have to be
very careful then that no accident occurs, you have
to know the moves by heart. Just one guy who is not
careful and forgets to secure his weapon might kill
several others. I remember a situation in which I
was standing close to a guy who was just not very
good at it and making a grenade sharp. I was on the
leap to get the grenade in case he would accidentally
drop it, so that I could throw out of range myself.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD (part 1)
Date: Tue 5 Aug 2003 16:40:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-38D7D1.15413005082003@news.bluewin.ch>

[I had to split up my original post, because it
was too long; now it is 4 parts (see subject)]

Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> in article delphi29-5113C1.09562702082003@news.bluewin.ch, Delphi Twentine
> at delphi29@excite.com wrote on 8/2/03 3:10 AM:
>
> > Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> >> My mother pulled out a pistol and popped my cat when I was 4 yrs old. If she
> >> had not been allowed to have that gun it would have never happened to me.
> >
> > Excuse me if I intervene - do you know the birth
> > date of Texas ?
>
> December 29th, 1845.

Do you know the time ?
I could not find it on the web.

I have Pluto transiting my natal moon at the
moment (exact in a few days). So, with trines
being particularly fated but also harmonic,
I seem to have little choice, although that
is somehow hardly noticable by me.

Texas is the "lone star" state. If I look at
the chart, the only candidate for that is
the moon in Capricorn. If I cast the chart
for noon local time in Austin, the moon is
the only planet with only a single aspect,
namely a square to Pluto in Aries. All in all,
not a cosy place for the moon. Plus it would
then also be in opposition to its mother's
sun, the sun of the USA in the middle of
Cancer.

Just a year after Texas had joined the US,
the US was at war, with Mexico. Just as a war
started about a year after the 43th president
of the USA came into office. The number 43
symbolizes a new iteration in the cycle, a new
start, a redefinition - because 42 is 6 x 7,
symbolizes the 6 axes (opportunities) that had
been tried for each of the 7 planets/gods.

I think Texas most directly symbolizes most
directly the deep fears of the US to break apart,
because the US is such a melting pot of so many
different influences. I think that also showed
in the aftermath of September 11. The USA is
producing so many great and exciting things
every year. But because the stuff is so good,
it is exported to the whole world. Thus, it
no longer defines America, because the stuff
then becomes global. So there is a continuous
loss of identity that has to be balanced by
constant reinvention and recreation of the
country.

Why does that concern me as a Swiss citizen ?
The events in the US during the previous Saturn
vs. Pluto oppositions have had almost as much
impact here as they have in the US. Global TV
brought events right into our homes, at least
initially, essentially unfiltered. So there is
some of the same lack of protection felt here too.

(continued...)

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD (part 2)
Date: Tue 5 Aug 2003 16:40:09 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-9E66D1.15413605082003@news.bluewin.ch>

(part 2)

But what maybe made most of the difference, was
that the American Dream, which exists outside of
the US just like inside it, was challenged. I
remember Tom Brokaw on Larry King Live, when he
told about a visit he had made to Iraq (that was
before 9/11). He talked about a guy he had talked
to there. First the guy talked about the ennemy
USA, the usual stuff, but then also part of the
dream came through: He asked Tom Brokaw if he
knew the widdow of a famous country singer, sorry
I cannot recall the name at the moment. The guy
asked Tom Brokaw to tell the widdow his compassion
and also to tell her that he loves his music.
In everybody in the world, there is such a part
of the American Dream, a part of american culture
that is loved. (Don't take away my Ketchup - And
I am serious about that.)

My special link to the US comes maybe from the
fact that my parents once in the sixties, a bit
before the Saturn-Pluto oppositions of that time
immigrated into the US. First they went on a world
trip, leading east, from Greece to Egypt to Japan,
Hawaii and then for a few months to Hollywood,
where a friend of them lived. They liked it there
very much, but actually they were heading for
Boston, were my father was to study at Harvard
(he is an architect (yes, matrix)). I guess for
astrologers it must be clear that one place is
not like the other. They did not like it much
there and after just a few months they returned
to Switzerland and had me. That is probably why my
birth chart (1966-08-07 4:12 Zurich 3:12 UTC)
shows quite a few similarities with the US:
Jupiter plus Venus in Cancer, retrograde Mercury.

In the matrix movies, the Oracle tells Neo at one
point that he "already made the decision, that he
is only trying to understand why now". I don't
know how many of our decisions are made by ourselves.
But it also often seems to me, that much of our
lives consists of understanding what is happening,
rather than defining it. At least that seems to be
true for our consciousness, but maybe that is more
true for me or the US with a retrograde Mercury.

Yesterday I got a parking fine of 40 Swiss Francs
for parking a bit too long (15 min past 2.5 hours).
In US dollars, that would be about 29.6, close to
the Saturn cycle in years. So, I interpret that as
that the crone (mother/texas moon) got its share.

Actually, when I read the small print, I saw that
it was not actually a fine, it was not issued by
the police, but by the maintainers of the parking
lot. I was for "not paying sufficient parking fees
or not following the parking order" and it was a
"parking fee plus a compensation for the efforts"
of the person/organisation who checks that parking
is in order. I have the moon in Aries.

In the movie eXistenZ by David Cronenberg, there
is a scene in which the young hero says something
that he had not consciously intended to say. The
girl on his side tells him (they are in a virtual
video game) that sometimes some people just have
to say some things, so that the story can move on.
So true.

(continued...)

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD (part 3)
Date: Tue 5 Aug 2003 16:40:12 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-FC38D9.15414205082003@news.bluewin.ch>

(part 3)

What scared me most during the time before the war
in Iraq, was that I was not sure where things were
heading. I was afraid that the US might have gone
crazy, that more and more wars would escalate,
maybe first only in the Middle East, but maybe then
even escalating to a World War. Only when the
statue in Bagdad fell and I could also feel the
relief, I started to understand what was happening.

What people in the Middle East were missing most
was a perspective. You had either the old regimes
with more or less dictators (but very little of
democracy and freedom in any case), or you had the
option of fundamentalist religion, which has lead
to the 9/11 attacks. Before that moment, I could
not understand why it would make sense to invade
a country that, although ruled by a very cruel
dictator (yes, I have seen what his former girlfriend
could tell, about how she had the opportunity to
come with him or have her husband killed, about
Saddam and his brothers torturing people and then
afterwards watching torture movies, and more...),
but he also admired Stalin, and so prepared the
country in some sense for modernity, built schools,
reduced older structures.

At the place where the statue of Saddam stood, there
is now a statue by local artists. It did not look
very beautiful in my eyes, but nobody of the people
who "invaded" the country told them that they would
not be allowed to do this. I think the country might
really be ready for a more pluralist society, that
will still essentially conserve their heritage. In
that sense, it is probably a real alternative and
will probably in the long run help to avoid terror.

In greek mythology, Cancer got its place in the sky
when a crab bit Heracles in the foot while he was
fighting the Hydra in the swamps. On a large scale,
as sad as it is on the personal scale, 9/11 was a
bite into the foot of America. Hera is "protectress",
and Heracles is "glory of Hera". The US is the son,
the hero, whereas Hera is the mother, is the world.
All the countries in the world have sent people of
their countries to immigrate into the USA. The
idea behind it is, it seems to me, to breed the
Age of Aquarius, a "new world order" in which
conflicts are ultimately solved more reasonably
and less bloody. If you compare the number of people
killed related to 9/11 and afterwards, to what
happened in WWII, I am very happy that this was on
a global scale mostly, as expressed at the Oscars,
a "Virtual War" (in the sense in which it affected
the large majority of people, of course for some
people that was literally different).

A more ancient symbol for Cancer is the scarab and
the dung ball it is rolling and out of which new
life emerges (actually the scarab lays its eggs
into the dung ball). Similarly, many emigrants were
considered undesired in their original countries.
If you consider the different reasons that have led
to the war in Iraq, many of them seem not able to
convince a majority of people even within the US
(if you consider each reason on its own, say
economic (oil etc.) interests, religiously rather
fundamentalist ideas, etc.).

From the outside, if one hears the argumentation,
it is often not so easy to understand why all that
might turn out good in the end, how these different
forces that all by themselves would probably not
be helpful, can make things better, can relieve
the mother of its burdens. If one is not within
the melting pot, like me, one does not *feel* what
people feel inside the US, so judging things is
not always easy. But I am relieved.

Was I able to chose to write or not to write what
I just wrote ? There are no physical forces that
make me write this, but I do not feel like I have
much of a choice this time, strange as it is. But
maybe I could add a few twists here and there
(Liz Greene associates free will also with Hermes,
the planet Mercury that constantly goes back and
forth around the sun; see her interview for the
Mountain Astrologer in August 2001, which is
reproduced at http://www.astro.com).

I wanted also to say something about France and the
USA should (in my opinion) maybe get a bit closer
together again, since they are after all "brothers"
through their almost simultaneous modern revolutions.
But I could not include it above, could not weave it
in, so maybe it is more my personal wish, than what
is spoken at the moment.

(continued...)

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD (part 4)
Date: Tue 5 Aug 2003 18:25:06 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-E0ABA6.17490805082003@news.bluewin.ch>

(part 4)

Last word about the crone: Yesterday I also read
the following in Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths"
about Pan (Capricorn/Saturn): "The Egyptian Thamus
apparently misheard the ceremonial lament 'Thamus
Pan-megas Tethnece' ('The all-great Tammuz is
dead!') for the message: 'Thamus, Great Pan is
dead!' At any rate, Plutarch [...] believed and
published it; yet when Pausanias made his tour of
Greece [...], he found Pan's shrines , altars,
sacred caves , and sacred mountains still much
frequented."

So, I guess this time that was my US$ 29.6;
thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Reflections - 124777
Date: Wed 6 Aug 2003 18:30:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308060746.1729b9@posting.google.com>

Reflections - 124777

Hi there.

This is reflection 6 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).

For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com

This time the coins pointed almost to the end of the
document, HHHH'TTHH'HTHH'THTT'H = 124777, which points
to the last sentence in Appendix C:
> One more twist on reality: Although the immediate
> intrinsic meaning of the improvised acknowledgement
> was consciously intentional, the one in* *the
> sentence introducing it was not...

This relates to the following passage earlier on:
> Finally, here is a less analytical, improvised acknowledgement:
> All said, the reader often seems to unconsciously, beadfully
> frown right on mere security; intuitively, mindful of niobic,
> aquaintant wiring of really long drops, brought yet putting a
> vane link, illusive, nearly adept.
> (21 April 2001, 15:23, 15 min, snow outside)

This will be a little bit about the nature of Pluto
and fate, but on a somewhat lighter note, to the degree
that this is possible...

Between Christmas and New Year 2000, I discovered the
short story "The Vane Sisters" by Vladimir Nabokov by
chance (Mars had just about entered Scorpio). The story
is apparently available on some russian websites, but
I am not going to indicate the links here, because it
may not be legal to read the story there, at least not
from all countries. The story is, of course, also
available in book form, along with other short stories
by Vladimir Nabokov:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679729976

Let me summarize the related part of the story
(in a rather dry style, as not to spoil too much;
if you prefer, read the whole story first - it is
only about 5000 words - and then come back here):

The narrator goes for a walk on a sunny winter's day.
He observes water drops falling from icicles, which
distracts him so much that he forgets about time and
has to have dinner at a restaurant in a different part
of town than usual. After dinner, he walks out and is
again distracted, this time by a parking meter:

"The lean ghost, the elongated umbra cast by a parking
meter upon some damp snow, had a strange ruddy tinge;
this I made out to be due to the tawny red light of the
restaurant sign above the sidewalk; and it was then--
as I loitered there, wondering rather wearily if in the
course of my return tramp I might be lucky enough to
find the same in neon blue."

A car stops and D. gets out, who had by chance been
driving through that town and recognized the narrator.
They exchange a few words and D. mentions that Cynthia
Vane has died a week ago. In the course of the story,
the narrator remembers the seances that he attained
with Cynthia and also the suicide of her younger sister,
Sybil, who had been a student of the narrator. The
story ends with the following paragraph:

> I could isolate, consciously, little. Everything seemed
> blurred, yellow-clouded, yielding nothing tangible. Her
> inept acrostics, maudlin evasions, theopathies-- every
> recollection formed ripples of mysterious meaning.
> Everything seemed yellowly blurred, illusive, lost.

If you only read the first letter of each paragraph,
you get: "Icicles by cynthia, meter from me, Sybil".
Similarly, if you do the same with my improvised
acknowledgement, you get a direct acknowledgement to
the two czech sisters, which I think they deserve.
Both of them have hard sun-Pluto aspects in their
birth charts (opposition resp. incoming square).

Fate or just imagination ? Hard to prove, but it is
maybe important to note that Einstein donated the
money from his Nobel Prize to his first wife, Mileva
Maric -- although this was apparently part of their
divorce agreement. The issue remains controversial,
but it is maybe worth noting that "Pluto" means
"wealth" (Robert Graves in "The Greek Myths").

A contribution does not necessarily have to be in
form of active, conscious (i.e. male) work, it can
also be more passive, unconscious, collective, i.e.
female in the sense also of a muse.

(If you speak german, you might be interested in the
book by retired mathematician Desanka Trbuhovic-Gjuric
"Im Schatten Albert Einsteins: Das tragische Leben der
Mileva Einstein-Maric" (Paul Haupt, Bern, 1993). It
appears that the book has never been translated to
english. Mileva Maric was born 1875-12-19 in Titel,
which was then in Hungary and is now in Serbia. As a
sagittarian theme, she was born with a dislocated hip,
but nobody noticed until she started to walk; so she
limped all of her life...)

The description of "world" as "wiring of really long
drops" fits quite well, even if I had no conscious
intention to do so. It reminds of the watery nature
of fate, of the fabric of fate that is composed of
the individual threads of life that the fates try
to sort, arrange and also cut (when necessary).
The other descriptions fit quite well too, including
the last one, with my experience of the Leo-Pisces
sun-sun quincunx, but maybe that is a little bit too
pessimistic, caused also by other circumstances.

I could mention two more interesting aspects/events
that relate my discoveries to fate and Pluto, but
maybe not now in the middle of summer; this appears
to be more a theme for late summer and autumn.

Before I forget, I have yet to explain the original
sentence: If you consider only the first letters in
the introduction to the improvised acknowledgement,
you get "F,hialaia", which could be read almost as
"Hi Alain". Of course, this could all just have come
out of my personal unconscious, not really from any
of these two girls, but then again...

Thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Reflections - 124777
Date: Thu 7 Aug 2003 00:20:11 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308061406.3cadace7@posting.google.com>

Epilogue

There is a very interesting epilogue to the
above story, which is also connected to quite
a few recent events in this newsgroup.

Let me start with my basic hypothesis in my
discoveries document, namely that people can
feel each other across large distances.

(Hint in case a physicist is reading this:
Forces can fundamentally not be shielded,
they can only cancel, which, at microscopic
level, possibly related to the measurement
problem, may not always happen.)

That would entail a form of telepathy, but in
my experience only in a somewhat restricted
sense, namely that you can ask questions and
get a positive ("rather yes") or a negative
("rather no") feeling back. So, through that
method, I had "asked" the second girl in the
acknowledgment, Pavlina, about her birth time.
The "answer" (given maybe two years ago), was
iteratively 10:15 Ostrava = 09:15 UTC.

Here it comes: On August 4th, I got the parking
"fine" that I mentioned in a recent post, just
four hours before a transit by Saturn across her
natal moon in Aries, which is quite lonely in
Aries, at a weak conjunction to my natal moon.
So there we have the same themes: lonely moon,
like possibly Texas, Saturn, and, in case you have
not noticed yet: A parking meter, the same symbol
for time and money (Saturn/Capricorn), that
Nabokov had used in his story.

I guess a transit of Pluto at a trine, as it is
currently with my natal moon, is particularly
fated, and hence a very good way to find out
what fate has decided. Scientifically, I can
draw no conclusions, but for me personally, it
looks as follows (until proven otherwise):

I will always feel her in my life, although
somehow from her side it seems not possible
that we could get really together. Possibly
there are physiological reasons that make the
connection practically unbreakable, irreversible
changes in the brain that can only happen at a
relatively young age, maybe a bit like the young
ducks who get fixated on the first being they
see and which becomes the mother for them. Since
the feeling has somewhat weakened now, after the
recent Saturn-Pluto oppositions (and since I
could always also feel close friends and family
when something emotionally important happened to
them) that is probably also not going to stand
in the way of a new relationship.

But back to the general questions. Since people
can feel each other, their thoughts and actions
become mutually dependent. In that sense, people
are free to physically do anything, but due to
the emotional feedback of others, they will not
do anything for a long time that does not fit in
with the collective's needs and plans.

Astrology is a such a scheme, it contains ages
of knowledge of nature. And it ensures a well
balanced diversity of people. Any problem will
be tackled differently by different people and
astrology ensures that all possible ways will
be tried with the same probability.

Sometimes it can be necessary for an individual
to become drunk, sometimes that can help. Some
brain cells die each time that somebody is drunk.
On a larger level, sometimes people collectively
(and unconsciously, of course) decide that some
things have to go, some beliefs and maybe even
some people, in the collective interest. That is
essentially how I view fate from the practical
point of view. (The fundamental question of free
will remains, of course, unanswered).

In summary, one can say that astrology is similar
to the Placebo Effect -- only that unconsciously
*everybody* believes in astrology, and in many
more things that have grown from ancient times.

One more thing about me (it's my birthday today,
sun in Leo): I feel a bit like the USA that have
to go to unfriendly places in the wide world,
but always trying to find the best way to get
back home as quickly as possible. I have little
interest in politics or in worldly fame. I like
to think about fundamental and philosophical
questions and otherwise prefer to have a normal
life, with a few good friends, and I would also
like to have a real girlfriend, then eventually
get married (or not) and also have children. After
a few years with lots of hard work, with Pluto
in transit at a square to my natal Pluto and
Uranus and at a trine to my natal moon, and after
the recent Saturn-Pluto and Jupiter-Neptune
oppositions, I have fate up to here [holding my
hand horizontally just above eye level].

I will mainly restrict myself on usenet to my
reflections every two weeks (they will, I guess,
in some form automatically be related to what is
going on here, anyway). And I will prepare as a
hobby a document called "easy to use astrology",
that will explain my major discoveries in a way
that is generally accessible and useful for some
minor problems at home or at work, also by adding
lots of illustrations to explain abstract concepts.
I will publish it in a few years, probably first
for free on the internet and later, if people
like it, as a book.

This time it will stick. And thanks a lot to Texas
for the opportunity to "mess" with it. Overall, I
find this newsgroup a very friendly place in usenet.
So far, nobody has been shot in usenet, anyway. :)

delphi29@excite.com
(Alain Stalder)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29

Subject: Re: BB's Prediction CD
Date: Thu 7 Aug 2003 06:35:04 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308062029.7780e9e7@posting.google.com>

Sharyn (sharyn721@adelphia.not) wrote:
> Yes, interesting point he brings up about Sun and Saturn perhaps being the
> two sides of the coin: free will and fate.

Hmm. Head and tail. And the tail side contains
the value of the coin. Two-faced Janus, the
Roman god of the month January. Hermes, usually
the father of Pan, and apparently often with
Apollon in mythology. Seems to fit well.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and Prediction CD (part 4)
Date: Thu 7 Aug 2003 17:45:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308062207.691aea6a@posting.google.com>

> Anyway, we were not very loved to begin with in many areas of the world and
> this sort of personality just tosses fuel on the fires.
>
> Best -- LL

I am not so sure about Texas not being loved in
the world. There is no water in the Texas chart,
so judging other's feelings is not so much what
Texas is best at. According to Texas' chart,
the state would be somewhat at odds with its
home country. In that sense it is interesting
that "W" has his sun conjunct the sun of the US.
That shows, in my opinion, also in the way in
which he handled the tough times after 9/11,
namely by going by his gut feeling, maybe also
a bit because he is a bit less gifted in a few
areas than the average US president.

Perception of others is relative. I, for my part,
with the moon in Aries at the MC, like immediate,
direct replies (as long as they are not in form
of a bullet), because they are always honest.
Somebody with screen name "Uncle Al" replied as
one of the first to my initial posts about my
discoveries to sci.physics in June 2002. He called
it a "540k pdf of unjustifiable, boring crap".
Although that reply disturbed me, I also liked that
it was direct. I don't know if he is from Texas,
but the term "uncle" maybe relates him to the other
texan posting here, Tante Lina ("Tante" is the
german word for "aunt"). A screen name has a big
influence on public reception; with a paternal
name like "uncle" or "aunt" in it, the message is
unavoidably also a bit "I am older and more
experienced than you. You have more to learn from
me than I have to learn from you." Well, maybe in
some sense the US has to learn a bit from Texas,
namely the properties of Texas that are not much
found otherwise in the US.

I know the problems are probably a bit more complex
than what I wrote above and I can recognize all of
what you wrote to some degree. The US and Texas both
have quite a bit of Capricorn in their charts. That
often leads to situations that are difficult to judge
from the facts, including many conspiracy theories.
Sometimes they may be true, but at least in the case
of 9/11, I think a conspiracy by the government can
be excluded, for the following simple reason: If the
government could pull off such a complex fake attack,
why then did they not manage to fake a smoking gun
(say a barrel of chemical weapons) in Iraq ? So, at
least in that sense, I think people were honest.
Water signs (like the US, Cancer) usually go by what
they feel, and only afterwards look for possible
logical explanations, and sometimes they consciously
chose a reason that later turns out to have been
false or at least biased or exaggerated.

Al Capone was brought to prison officially for tax
evasion. But that was not because the government
was increasingly prosecuting tax evasion. As far as
I know, it was because the government, in the US'
aquarian way, had concluded that he was obviously a
gangster and then had tried to find a way to get him.

Note that the above is not exclusive with me not
agreeing on many issues with the current government.
In November/December 2000, I was on holidays in
Florida, right when people were recounting ballots.
Before that, still in Switzerland, I had made a bet
with one of the people I went to the USA with. He
bet on Bush, I bet on Gore becoming president.
Retrograde Mercury was an important astrological
factor in that election. In greek mythology, Hermes
(Mercury) at one time steals 50 cattle from Apollon.
Apollon is angry at first, but in the end happily
trades his cattle for a lyre that Hermes had made.
Apollon evolves from artisan to artist, from Aries
to Sagittarius. My sun is in Leo, the other guy's
is in Gemini, and the bet was about a large US
steak -- a piece of cattle.

delphi29@excite.com


Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
[...]
> David,
>
> Mythology is powerful stuff. I just bought, "Wisdom of the Mythtellers" by
> Sean Kane, recommended by B. Brady.
>
> These posts of yours are all very interesting and represent how many in the
> saner and more civilized foreign countries view us here, although your views
> are more polite and kind than many others.
>
> Firstly, our present problem here in the US as I see it, is although Bush
> was born in New Haven, CT, he is very much a Texan in every sense of the
> word. Read Capricorn Sun and Mars conjunct Uranus. He is a modern day, wild
> west cowboy with a Leo rising and a handgun in his pocket (Pluto in the
> 1st). He was governor when they passed the law that legalized handguns in
> this state. Add that to the fact that he DID NOT receive the majority vote
> in a country where the "majority is supposed to rule".  So to some, that in
> an of it self seems hypocritical to a true democracy.
>
> The family had homes in Houston and Odessa, TX during his childhood and he
> now considers his residence to be in Texas (probably partly due to the lack
> of state income tax), but also because he is a gun toting, not very
> intellectual (read "smart"), cedar chopping, stereo-typical, seemingly macho
> Texas male, IMO.
>
> He carries all the swagger, the bravado and the lack of impulse control that
> I see frequently in the overall male culture of this state. The problem with
> that is, any civilized country will frown on many of those attributes, or
> maybe I should more precisely call them personality defects to a different
> kind of man.
>
> Anyway, we were not very loved to begin with in many areas of the world and
> this sort of personality just tosses fuel on the fires.
>
> Best -- LL

Subject: The Fifth Element
Date: Fri 8 Aug 2003 06:05:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308071949.62699344@posting.google.com>

The Fifth Element

Fate and luck. When I woke up this morning, what
feels to me the crucial idea for understanding
astrological houses came to my mind: Of course,
the 5th house and Leo are related, but the 5th
house is, as its name specifies, essentially
related to the number 5.

Of course, Leo is also connected to the same
number, but just as Leo is the 5th sign of the
year, it is the 2nd sign of the summer, the
first adult sign, the 3rd male sign, and it is
connected to the lion and to the sun and then
to various myths. Although all of these links
also exist to some degree for the fifth house,
for the house, the association with the number
5 seems obviously most prominent, strongest.

This is not the first time an idea emerges sort
of as a reward by fate for hard and deep work
for me. Thanks everybody for providing the ground,
the melting pot for this new idea. I interpret
the fact that I have had this idea as a sign
that it is now allowed also to gently explore
its consequences. Attributing a single inventor
to an idea is a difficult thing anyway -- with my
retrograde Mercury at the end of the 12th house,
and with my sun at an incoming square to Neptune,
it is sort of my task to retrieve/receive some
gifts from the collective when OKed from there,
by Hades/Pluto/Fate.

So, the opportunity is there for everyone. Let
me just indicate two leads, for anybody free to
follow or ignore:

Around the time of the release of the reloaded
matrix, there was a discussion here about the
8th house. I then accidentally got to Herakles'
eighth labour. It seemed to me then (by feeling,
not by analysis) to fit better with the 8th
house than with Scorpio, although certainly
related to both to some degree.

Side remark about the number 8: I can also see
a clear connection to the nodes, because just
like the two nodes, the number 8 is two gates,
mouth and anus, connected by that vegetative,
lunar tube through our bodies. The number for
infinity is a horizontal 8, which reminds me
of the constellation of Pisces, which Robert
Hand, if I remember correctly, relates also to
East and West in his essay about the "Age and
Constellation of Pisces". In that respect, it
is maybe not astonishing that Japanes Smileys
are the other way round. The basic smiley is
(^_^), a blushing one is (*^_^*); more here:
http://club.pep.ne.jp/~hiroette/en/facemarks.
Finally, note that the glyph for the sign Leo
looks almost identical to the one for the
northern node...

My second hint is Robert Hand's book about
Symbols in Astrology. I only took a very quick
glance at it once, initially liked it and then
not so much any more. It feels to me now, that
there is are quite some leads there, as usual.

Could maybe free will be connected also to the
fifth element that transcends the other four ?
(say via 5th house - Leo - sun)

Thanks everybody again :),

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: The Fifth Element
Date: Fri 8 Aug 2003 18:25:00 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-3CBB99.09494808082003@news.bluewin.ch>

I wrote:
> Could maybe free will be connected also to the
> fifth element that transcends the other four ?
> (say via 5th house - Leo - sun)

In contemporary astrology, planets are usually
listed in the order sun, moon, Mercury, Venus,
Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. In the back of my mind
I think I have quite recently heard or read
that in antiquity the usual order was slightly
different, Mercury came after Venus and Mars.
I tried to verify that on the web, but without
success. Anyway, if it was so, Mercury would be
associated with 5 too, fitting well with recent
ideas here, and also with the fact that the 5th
house is commonly associated with children.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Terminator Movies
Date: Fri 8 Aug 2003 18:25:04 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308072339.538a07a9@posting.google.com>

The moon is still in Sagittarius, out of range
of Pluto now, so some freely associated stuff:

1 - fire  - machine with fiery red eyes
2 - air   - two machines, one old, other made
            of liquid metal (mercury/Hermes)
3 - water - female machine, mixture of two
            previous ones (hard+soft)
4 - earth - Governator. reality. different.
5 - ether - Presidator ? For that he would have
            to really transcend reality, because
            he would have to be born in the USA;
            possible ways: annex Austria, make it
            a state of the USA; make the house he
            was born in an US embassy (US soil);
            clone; change history...

* 1947-07-30 04:10 Graz (Austria), 02:10 UTC
Source: http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0002083.htm

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Matrix resolved
Date: Sat 9 Aug 2003 07:07:02 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308082107.1851f90b@posting.google.com>

houses, number = center of associations,
direct consequence of H19, date 08.08,
8x8=64, matrix, wei chi, I ching, parans, pisces

Paul Adrien Maurice Dirac, 1902-08-08,
Dirac Equation also direct logical consequence
(Schroedinger Equation, special relativity),
idea for path integrals => Feynman (=> Dirac
memorial lecture, virtual particles and SR)
book about GR => my first real contact with
the beauty of modern physics

beauty, love, fate

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re; BBs Prediction CD
Date: Sat 9 Aug 2003 14:15:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308082023.79f7382d@posting.google.com>

[Reply to post by JohnRoth, see full quote below]

The first time we "met" in the matrix (and so far the
only time) was 2002-10-10, when I wrote something about
how the name for Pluto was chosen. You added the facts,
namely: "What happened is that the name was chosen by
a contest; the winning entry was by an (I think)
British schoolgirl who related her choice (Pluto) to
the fact that the planet was very far from the sun and
quite dark." That reminded me then of a scene in the
movie "Men in Black", in which Will Smith passes a test
by not shooting at figures of 3 very dangerous looking
space aliens, but instead shoots at the figure of a
little girl, because she happens to be carrying a book
about quantum mechanics...

Unfolding new things, like it happens especially in
young girls, is a very delicate matter. Hence I have
to stop now, there are too many just evolving matters
touched by what you wrote. In January this year I had
asked the I Ching for the first time. It answered:

> I:I :I:  wei-chi  (fire/water, 64)
>
> BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
> But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
> Gets his tail in the water,
> There is nothing that would further.
>
> The image of the condition before transition.
> Thus the superior man is careful
> In the differentiation of things,
> So that each finds its place.

Accordingly, I modified words that could be found by
a casual googler interested in an emerging news story
in my quote of previous posts below (e.g. "house boat"
replaced by "{houseboat}"; and replied in a new thread
and modified the subject lightly (else it would still
appear in the same thread at google groups). I think I
will at least still be able to write something about
a few interesting twists between what you said about
fate related to quantum mechanics, in one of my future
reflections. I can already exclude the next one, since
I already tossed the coins yesterday; they point more
to questions of objective reality (7th reflection).

Please allow me to leave things a that for the moment.

Thanks,
delphi29

--
{JohnRoth} ({newsgroupsatjhrothjrcom}) wrote:
> "{DelphiTwentine}" <{delphi29atexcitecom}> wrote in message
> {newsdelphi29-9227A3.09564704082003@newsbluewinch}...
> > {JohnRoth} ({newsgroupsatjhrothjrcom}) wrote:
> > > More interesting is a paper, hot off the presses (I saw the note
> > > on Slashdot) that points out that we can't know the **exact** location
> > > of anything in time or space, an observation that has rather interesting
> > > consequences, and is much more profound than the {HeisenbergUncertainty}
> > > Principle (which sets limits on the joint certainty in time and space,
> > > and only applies at very small time and distance scales.)
> > >
> > > From this, the author actually solves {ZenosParadox}!
> > >
> > > {http://scienceslashdotorg}/science/03/08/03/029213.shtml?tid=134
> > >
> > > Pretty strange stuff going on in physics these days...
> >
> > Thanks a lot for the hint. I was so bold to post a
> > question about the referenced scientific paper to
> > {sciphysres}. With the moon at what I call
> > the "decision point", between Libra and Scorpio,
> > I am both quite suspicious and cautiously optimistic.
>
> You're not the only one that's suspicious. I've since
> found more data on the journal; it's quite well known
> for printing papers that are more thought-provoking
> than substantive.
>
> > About fate: My next reflection, which I wrote two
> > weeks ago and which will appear next monday, also
> > deals with some aspects of fate, although not in
> > a very analytical manner. There are some quite
> > specific ideas about the "practical aspects" of
> > fate in my discoveries document, in fact those
> > where the ones that got me into astrology in the
> > first place. When the coins will point there, I
> > will probably reflect about them here...
> > (As maybe expected, they leave practically all
> > of the philosophical questions open).
>
> Well, fate is an interesting subject, as see Larry's
> fulminations about it. I'm going to take this
> opportunity to say that, AFIC, there's a lot less
> here than meets the eye. (Yes, I definitely meant
> less.)
>
> My viewpoint, such as it is, is that we are
> fragments of a spiritual being (which I call essence)
> that exists outside
> of space and time as we currently conceptualize
> it. That being creates incarnated versions of itself,
> and sets them up to have certain experiances in a
> given lifetime. It's up to the incarnated self to make
> of those experiances what it will.
>
> Astrology is the part we see of the mechanism of
> how all this works.
>
> So what happens if I run into someone that essence
> decided I was going to have a relationship with?
> Is that fate or free will? It totally depends on who's
> viewpoint you're using. Mine - it's fate. I didn't know
> anything about it until it happened, and I didn't have
> any choice in the matter. Neither did the other person.
>
> From essences' viewpoint, it's free will - that is, essences'
> free will. It decided it was going to happen, it brought the
> two people together at the appointed place and time, and it happened.
>
> So what is fate? It's simply the puppet master pulling
> the strings, and learned discourses about the nature of
> the strings and such like matters I find rather uninteresting.
> I'd rather get on with my life, such as it is.
>
> BTW - I've always found "synchronicity" to be a hoot.
> The guy who invented the concept must have been laughing
> all the way to his deathbed about the people who swallowed
> that when they wouldn't accept causality that involved a
> spiritual being. Either what happens is random coincidence,
> or you can trace out a chain of causality.
>
> {JohnRoth}
>
>
> >
> > {delphi29atexcitecom}
> > --
> > {keywordexactphilosophy}

Subject: Re: BB's Fixed Star and OT: Guns
Date: Sun 10 Aug 2003 17:35:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308100556.22686de5@posting.google.com>

Richard Nolle (rnolle@astropro.com) wrote:
> Leather and lycra, hoses at two paces in the fountain pool . . . tastes great .
> . . less filling!

Hope you don't mind...

Heracles 5th labour consists of cleaning the stables
of Augeias within a single day (one passage of the
sun). He achieves that by using all four elements:
A good idea is required (Fire,1), provided by the
advice of Menedemus and executed by Heracles with
help by Iolaus (two "twins", one helping with advice,
the other with action; cf. section 3.15 in my
discoveries document; Air,2). What they do is breach
two gates on opposite ends of the stable, then merge
two rivers (Water, out of 2 things emerges a third,3)
and divert the river; such that it flows through the
stable and thus washes away the dung (Earth, 4) that
had been constipating the stable (refers also to
lunar nodes, vegetative tube trough body (Earth),
mouth and anus, 8, hence via 5-Leo, 8-Scorpio also
relation between Scorpio and Leo, namely conception
and birth).

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Re: Terminator Movies
Date: Sun 10 Aug 2003 17:35:04 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308100558.201260f2@posting.google.com>

I wrote:
> 1 - fire  - machine with fiery red eyes
> 2 - air   - two machines, one old, other made
>             of liquid metal (mercury/Hermes)
> 3 - water - female machine, mixture of two
>             previous ones (hard+soft)

Terminator 1 has to be killed, just like the hero
Heracles had to kill the Nemean Lion in his first
task, only to then wear his skin. A copy of the
terminator returns in part 2 and 3, has to learn
to show feelings, to have compassion with others,
and has to fight the animal instincts in the next
two elements, Air and Water. The Air terminator
is male and made of liquid metal (reminding of
Mercury), can change into any shape and person
very quickly. The Water terminator is female, is
a merge (like children) of a metal skeleton plus
a liquid metal cover. She is like a little girl
who wants to possess everyting she sees:
"I want that dress" - things; "I want that gun"
to the policeman - people, especially men; wants
to control them through their "gun", wants to
make use of their instinctive, animal power. She
can also remote control other machines. Similar
to the first terminator, these Air and Water
initial insticts have to be controlled by the
hero, hence to some degree have to be terminated.

"I'll be back.",
delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Zeno hoax ?
Date: Mon 11 Aug 2003 00:23:38 CEST
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308032206.6e5fe541@posting.google.com>

There is a paper by Peter Lynds that has apparently caught
the attention of the media. It is to appear in Foundations
of Physics Letters this month:

http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=624701

Here are title and abstract:

Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminacy vs.
Discontinuity

It is postulated there is not a precise static instant in time
underlying a dynamical physical process at which the relative
position of a body in relative motion or a specific physical
magnitude would theoretically be precisely determined. It is
concluded it is exactly because of this that time (relative
interval as indicated by a clock) and the continuity of a
physical process is possible, with there being a necessary
trade off of all precisely determined physical values at a time,
for their continuity through time. This explanation is also
shown to be the correct solution to the motion and infinity
paradoxes, excluding the Stadium, originally conceived by the
ancient Greek mathematician Zeno of Elea. Quantum Cosmology,
Imaginary Time and Chronons are also then discussed, with the
latter two appearing to be superseded on a theoretical basis.

In the acknowledgment, the author thanks several people,
including J.A. Wheeler:

"Conversations and correspondence with, and encouraging words
received from J. A. Wheeler of Princeton, J. J. C. Smart and
H. Price of Australia, C. Grigson of New Zealand, A. P. French
of MIT, and W. B. Yigitoz of Canada, as well as from the two
very helpful unanimous referees of this paper, are most
gratefully acknowledged."

So far, everything seems interesting. What makes me a bit
suspicious, is that Peter Lynds is said to be working as
a broadcasting instructor, according to the following
newspaper article that has been posted:

http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=bgdvur%24ntdn4%241%40ID-196093.news.uni-berlin.de

Could it be a hoax, appropriately placed in the summer months
where the media accept things more easily ? The paper seems
to be most specific in areas of physics that I do not grasp
well enough. So my question to the experts here:

Is it a hoax or is it for real ?
If it is for real, how big is it ?

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Reflections - 2242
Date: Mon 11 Aug 2003 10:30:01 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308102238.48db2a89@posting.google.com>

Reflections - 2242

Hi there.

This is reflection 7 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).

For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com

This time the coins pointed to my primary hypotheses
H1-H5 (TTTT'THTT'THHT'TTTH'T = 2242):
> The following statement*s* stem from my personal experience. As they have not
> been independently verified, I have preferred to label them with the letter H
> for hypothesis.
> H1 Human brains are emotionally interconnected.
> H2 The feeling between two people is maximal if people's heads face each other,
> face away from each other or one is facing towards the other and the other is
> facing away, and it is minimal in between, at 90° (a). If two people face each
> other, the feeling is maximal if the symmetry planes of their heads coincide
> and minimal if they are perpendicular (b).
> H3 The intensity of feeling decreases with distance (a). In some cases, it can
> be felt across global distances (b) and through the earth (c).
> H4 For most people the feeling is strongest if the other person is of the
> opposite sex (a) and especially so if one is in love with that person (b). For
> homosexual and bisexual people the relative strengths of feeling are different
> in the obvious way (c).
> H5 The feeling is mutual.

First I thought that this would be about discussing
why these hypotheses are not as unrealistic as they
may seem. But then I noticed that the coins pointed to
the letter S of 'statements', that there are 5 of them
and that S looks almost like 5. Hence this is about
the new stuff that I discovered last week.

5 is 4+1, is reality (4) one step (1) further, where
1 is Fire and the sun that steps into the next sign.
So the number 5 is about ideas, about new things that
emerge by imagination out of known reality.

But 5 is also 3+2, is about the relation between fate
(3) and individual thinking (2). They are the two
faces of the coin: Fate influences thinking, but also
thinking influences fate. This is maybe best expressed
in Franz Kafka's very short story "Das Schweigen der
Sirenen" (The Silence of the Sirens).
English: http://zork.net/~patty/ksilence.html
German:  http://www.pitt.edu/~kafka/sirenen.html

This fits also well with common associations that are
made with the 5th house in astrology, that it is about
creating, about children, i.e. about things that are
transcending, go beyond, the individual reality of a
limited lifespan. So it is also about the relation of
the individual to life, to where he/she comes from and
where he/she is going to.

> H5 The feeling is mutual.
Contrary to H1-H4, this is not based on my actual
experience, but rather an idea how it most likely
is. Feeling is love, is fate. Mutual means that there
are two sides to it, fate and free will, that there
is somebody who wants and somebody who is wanted,
a man and a woman (and vice versa).

Similar things can be done with other numbers. 6 is
5+1, the next step after having had an idea, namely
the opportunity to realize it. 6 is also 4+2, hence
reality plus logic, which I already previously related
to science, and most specifically to physics, where
abstract beauty and symmetries are very important.
And 6 is also 3+3, representing two options for fate
(3 for the first option, 3 for the other), hence
again opportunity.

The number of this reflection is 7, which I directly
associate with Saturn, the outermost planet to Greek
knowledge. Germany is a country that has had the sun
in either of the two signs associated with Saturn in
its long history. The term "Blut und Boden" (blood
and ground) represents German roots, people with the
same blood (fate,water,3) and the ground (earth,4),
7 = 3+4. Then there is the logical evolution (2)
of ideas (5), which reminds of time, of the orderly
progression of nature. And so on.

I have just begun exploring this new world. So more
analysis is clearly required. Luckily Jupiter will
soon enter Virgo, when that should be quite fun to do.
(Not only for me, I hope, but also for others).

By the way, my post has finally appeared at the
sci.physics.research newsgroup. We will see.
(which side of the coin will be up.)

Next reflection will be in two weeks.

Thanks for reading,

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Comments
Date: Mon 11 Aug 2003 12:45:39 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308110245.4f87824@posting.google.com>

Keyword: exactphilosophy

The following text has been extracted from a pdf
document that had been online for a few months
in spring and summer 2003 at exactphilosophy.net.

delphi29@excite.com

> The following few pages were originally comments before or
> after a collection of newsgroup posts by me. They all relate
> to the discoveries and hypotheses presented at
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net
>
> 1 - Everything rests by changing (September 2002)
> 2 - Over and Out (December 2002)
> 3 - Over and Out (December 2002)
> 4 - Epilogue (April 2003)
>
> Note that pages 2 and 3 may feel offensive to some readers.
> Also, some statements on page 1 are a bit biased.
>
> [page 1]
>
> Everything rests by changing
>
> (Review of "A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder)
>
> How not to promote something that is close to nature, but
> relatively different from current culture...
>
> The less somebody knows about the world, the more that person
> bases his/her judgment on nature, on what she/he can see and
> touch. Intellectuals, however, are often quite a bit trapped
> inside their specialized worlds, they base their judgment
> rather on what they have learned, and often also their carers
> depend on some premises remaining valid. Hence, intellectuals
> are mostly less open to new things that are close to nature,
> i.e. that are real, but also relatively remote from current
> cultural understanding of how the world is supposed to be.
>
> In this document, I have simply collected my attempts to
> convince or rather at least interest some intellectuals from
> different sides into what I found out, but with little result,
> except maybe to stake the claim to have said it first. I wrote
> about 99 posts to internet newsgroups, got mentioned in about
> two other internet forums, got listed by mistake on a web site
> that lists crazy things on the web, wrote a few letters, mainly
> to astrologers, and found about one or two people who could
> understand what I was talking about. Of course, they were (as
> far as I can tell from a few exchanges of ASCII text) not the
> kind of people who try to achieve an important position in the
> world, but rather people who are interested in understanding
> the world, something which you would naively associate with any
> scientist.
>
> I must admit that I chose a moment to publish when people were
> generally inflexible with regard to new things, namely because
> Uranus and Neptune are currently in Aquarius, the older old man
> of the zodiac. In the near or remote future, things may be
> different.
>
> I have Saturn, who stands also for something that has to be made
> public, near the end of Pisces. Saturn is at the end of the
> circle, where universe and womb almost become one again. In
> other words, where I have to be in public, is close to that
> position, which is both universal, i.e. natural, and close to
> everybody, close to normal people and their everyday needs. Other
> people have to fight their way up, have to try to gain concrete
> influence on others - but at the end of the circle, the influence
> becomes so universal, has to take every imaginable aspect of the
> world into account, that the influence become impersonal, natural.
> No individual can impose something on the world, only what is
> natural, what is universally desired, what everybody perceives
> the same way, only that will make it.
>
> There are many things in the discoveries that would be immediately
> useful. Lovers would know where to look in order to feel each
> other better when they are apart. People could solve some minor
> conflicts at home and at work more easily with some basic knowledge
> of psychological astrology. These are things that everybody cares
> about, but as a private person, not as a researcher etc.
>
> What follows is simply all 99 newsgroup posts that contain the
> word "exactphilosophy" that were archived at groups.google.com.
> There is interesting stuff in what follows, but don't expect
> anything nearly comparable to the density and clarity of the
> original document that had been forged during the recent the
> Saturn-Pluto opposition.
>
> © Copyright 2002 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
>
> [page 2]
>
> Fame and power make unhappy and sick. The world is old and
> experienced enough to continue on its own, without my help in
> public. There are already some faint signs of new life emerging.
> More poetically speaking, one could say that my quaoarian task
> of singing some initial life and structure into this dead,
> aquarian world is now over - others will take over now. Take
> care, at some point fate will hold you or your children
> responsible for your actions. Let me briefly review part of
> Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate" (Samuel Weiser, 1984),
> namely about Virgo and Astraea (starry): "Once she lived on
> earth, during the Golden Age when there was no strife or
> bloodshed among men. [...] But with the gradual corruption
> of men, Astraea conceived a hatred for the human race because
> of its crimes, and left earth forever [...] to become the
> constellation of Virgo."
>
> I am from the generation with Pluto in Virgo. Next time I will
> say something in public, you will have to beg.
>
> Over and out,
> Alain Stalder *7 August, 1966 in Zürich, Switzerland [little swiss flag]
>
> (15 December 2002)
>
> [page 3]
> PS: The initial words of this text are, of course, to be viewed
> out of the moment I wrote them (including a political event that
> day in Switzerland). Normally, I would express my opinion more
> carefully and in less absolute terms. Please read it accordingly.
> However, I will stick to my promise to remain silent in public
> unless there are direct and convincing requests for me to change
> that. In that sense, the moment only ignited my decision, and did
> not cause it alone. I have found out some really exceptional new
> things about the world. And I presented them in a very careful
> way in my initial document, taking great care to get things right
> psychologically and compatible with existing science. I guess
> the above posts to physics newsgroups show that I do know the
> foundations of current physics very well. Furthermore, my posts
> to astrology newsgroups show that I know contemporary
> psychological astrology well enough to get things right in that
> respect, too. All my facts in the original document
> (discoveries.pdf) are very carefully researched, checked many,
> many times and from many different angles. So, in the end, the
> document does not need my help, it is too strong a child for that.
>
> I am aware that the document shows everybody his or her borders,
> confronts almost everybody with some unpleasant parts of their
> lives, with some sore blind spots that everybody likes to avoid.
> However, that does not make the discoveries false, quite to the
> contrary. I might be almost the last person on earth who wants
> too much change in too little time. But that does not mean that
> it is good to ignore the discoveries altogether.
>
> Note that currently Mercury is in Capricorn, the moon in Taurus,
> and Mars follows Venus in close conjunction in Scorpio. This
> makes this text very probably realistic and up to the point
> psychologically, but also probably not entirely fair in all
> respects.
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
>
> Alain Stalder
>
> (16 December 2002)
>
> This document is:
> © Copyright 2002 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
>
> [page 4]
>
> The following text has emerged between 1993 and 1995 in a
> HyperCard™ stack. The text may not be reproduced by any means,
> neither in part or as a whole, without prior written consent
> by me, Alain Stalder.
>
> [text of a philosophical nature, not reproduced here]

Subject: Introduction
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 08:03:37 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.test
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308112203.3544cd00@posting.google.com>

Keyword: exactphilosophy

The following introduction has been online at
http://www.exactphilosophy.net between about
August 2002 and August 2003.

delphi29@excite.com

> Introduction
>
> to "A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
>
> The greek word "physis" has many meanings that all circle
> around what we now call "nature".
>
> This explains part of the fundamental role that physics
> plays in today's scientific world. The other reason is
> the fact that physics most directly applies the idea of
> Pythagoras to describe the world by numbers. Physical
> theories operate on numbers. The world we see is first
> transformed into numbers using simple and commonly agreed
> rules, then mathematically formulated physical theories
> are applied to transform these numbers to new numbers,
> which, in turn, are then mapped to reality again. A
> priori there are no limits as to where it makes sense to
> apply this method. Besides physics, important parts of
> other sciences apply the exact methods of physics.
>
> However, a probably even larger part of science is still
> based on informally formulated theories and individual
> scientists or even schools of belief that fight each other
> with various arguments. It would mean great progress for
> science, if only part of these disputes could be solved
> directly by asking nature, using the exact methods of
> physics.
>
> The document called "A few new discoveries in physics" that
> I wrote describes the result of my visits to other branches
> of science and also to some not so scientific crafts like,
> for example, astrology. It is important to stress that I
> went there as a physicist, on the look for things that can
> be formulated in an exact, quantitative way, for questions
> that can be asked to nature using the means of physics.
> Such questions to nature are called scientific hypotheses
> if they are:
>
> a) simple and specific enough to be verified experimentally,
> b) in agreement with previous experiments.
>
> (Note that a hypothesis may make different predictions than
> existing theories for a range of experiments that have not
> been tested yet. Theories that are superseded in that way
> remain nonetheless viable and often useful approximations
> for the range of previous experiments.)
>
> The document I wrote is difficult to understand in its
> entirety due to its interdisciplinary nature. Often the
> people working in the diverse fields I visited have strong
> psychological aversions to even talk to the "other" people.
> I cannot remove barriers that have been created during
> centuries within a short time span and essentially alone.
> I need help. I need experts from the respective fields who
> take the time and make the effort to look at the document
> in detail and then write about it in a language that most
> people in their environments can understand.
>
> Not every hypothesis in the document will turn out
> experimentally to be true. Still, there is lots of great
> and useful stuff to discover for everybody in the document,
> for physicists, psychologists, historians, astrologers,
> and philosophers alike, but it takes some effort to
> discover it. Please do.
>
> Copyright © 2002 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.

Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 09:53:39 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308112353.47c7bab6@posting.google.com>

Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.

The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)

I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.

> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.

Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.

What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.

The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).

> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.

Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.

Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.

> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.

Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).

Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.

> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.

The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.

> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.

Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.

> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.

This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.

> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.

This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.

I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.

delphi29@excite.com*

--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.

PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...

Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0

Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 09:54:45 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308112354.74d0adce@posting.google.com>

Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.

The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)

I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.

> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.

Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.

What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.

The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).

> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.

Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.

Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.

> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.

Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).

Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.

> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.

The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.

> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.

Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.

> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.

This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.

> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.

This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.

I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.

delphi29@excite.com*

--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.

PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...

Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0

Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 10:05:46 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-FE71EF.10054612082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.

The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)

I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.

> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.

Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.

What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.

The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).

> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.

Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.

Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.

> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.

Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).

Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.

> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.

The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.

> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.

Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.

> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.

This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.

> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.

This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.

I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.

delphi29@excite.com*

--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.

PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...

Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0

Subject: Re: Reflections - 2242
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 16:30:05 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308112340.194828b2@posting.google.com>

I wrote:
> Reflections - 2242
[...]
> First I thought that this would be about discussing
> why these hypotheses are not as unrealistic as they
> may seem. But then I noticed that the coins pointed to
> the letter S of 'statements', that there are 5 of them
> and that S looks almost like 5. Hence this is about
> the new stuff that I discovered last week.
[...]

I have the sun in Leo, which is amplified at this time
of the year. So there is a lot of partial insights
that are woven into a coherent, but naive and partially
false view. So some of the stuff in my other threads is
(as it looks now) not fully correct, although in a
maybe interesting way. But it seems to me that what I
wrote in my reflections post is different, maybe because
it reflects from a crystal forged by Pluto and Saturn.

I am about to publish a post that explains the abstract
of my discoveries document to different newsgroups.
If you are interested in the various reactions, just go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy" and
sort by date. First posts should appear in a few hours.

I have at the same time updated my web site and am now
also preparing a document that lists what I could
extract during the last year or so. I will acknowledge
there also this group. In most cases the influences
that helped me to extract things come about not by
conscious content of discussions, but rather by the
unconscious parts, also from suffering (Thomas Ring
has, I think related that to the moon, hence also to
Cancer, which is about creating things, bringing them
to birth, and birth is also often a painful experience).

There is one exception, namely posts by Sharyn and by
Pete P, that lead a path (sun-free will, cat-tail-coin)
that lead to new insights, especially the relatively
stronger importance of numbers in houses than in signs.
Thus I plan to mention you two in the acknowledgment,
if you don't mind. If you do, just tell me and I will
state the acknowledgment more generally, say "two
moderators at alt.astrology.tropical".

"Follow the white rabbit". Leo is also about the old
kings that had to go and are replaced by new kings
that replace them, although in different mixtures and
with some different properties. The old and new kings
usually are not connected on an individual level. At
my first astrology seminar by Liz Greene, in November
1999, I had never heard of Charles Harvey, and yet it
had just about that time become clear that he would
die within the next few months. Similarly, when I came
here, I sort of came here (without knowing) to kill my
real name "Alain Stalder" as a usenet poster and
replace it by "Delphi Twentine" for good. Sadly, also
some real people had to die.

So the following may again be a bit naive, but maybe
still helpful: "Weiss" in german means "white", and
"weise" means "wise"; the rabit occurs in several myths
with male gods chasing female ones and vice versa.
Robert Graves, himself a Leo (1895-07-24) dwells a lot
on these themes in his book "The Greek Myths". The
different animals represent transformations caused
by the sun through the seasons. My first association
when I heard the name "Charles Harvey", was with the
black and white movie "My Friend Harvey", with James
Steward, where Harvey is a 9 foot tall invisible
rabbit. In that sense, the invisible white rabbits
never disappear.

delphi29@excite.com

Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 19:14:03 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0308112352.28d26ea7@posting.google.com>

Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.

The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)

I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.

> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.

Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.

What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.

The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).

> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.

Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.

Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.

> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.

Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).

Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.

> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.

The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.

> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.

Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.

> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.

This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.

> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.

This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.

I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.

delphi29@excite.com*

--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.

PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...

Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0

Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 22:36:49 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-ADFF01.22364912082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.

The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)

I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.

> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.

Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.

What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.

The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).

> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.

Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.

Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.

> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.

Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).

Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.

> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.

The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.

> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.

Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.

> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.

This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.

> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.

This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.

I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.

delphi29@excite.com*

--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.

PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...

Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0

Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 22:37:34 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.synchronicity
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-625C0F.22373412082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.

The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)

I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.

> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.

Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.

What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.

The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).

> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.

Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.

Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.

> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.

Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).

Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.

> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.

The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.

> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.

Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.

> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.

This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.

> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.

This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.

I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.

delphi29@excite.com*

--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.

PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...

Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0

Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
Date: Tue 12 Aug 2003 22:38:17 CEST
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Message-ID: <delphi29-EF4E81.22381712082003@news.bluewin.ch>

Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.

The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)

I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.

> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.

Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.

What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send in