usenet
Posts 1996-2023;
edits marked like [this]
and [that].
I hardly dared to edit anything
since the most fundamental initial ideas of exactphilosophy.net
emerged while I was posting a lot to Usenet
and they were usually first announced there.
So as a service to future researchers
posts are essentially left unfiltered.
First posts that directly publish ideas from exactphilosophy.net
are from 20 June 2002 at 09:00 CEST when also exactphilosophy.net first went live with non-empty content,
but note that some of the "signatures"/"certificates"
appended to posts before that are cryptographic hashes or signatures
of earlier discovery disclosure text files.
The crucial post overall related to exactphilosophy.net
is "Disclosure" of 20 May 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical,
the first mention of the idea to define 4+1 elements in terms of immediate perception
of space and time as in/out and rest/move and their transmutations.
Besides my model of elemental transmutations in the zodiac
and discussions at alt.astrology.tropical,
an important precursor was the post "Rapid Communication - Axes and Opposites"
of 28 Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated,
inspired in part by Werner Held's diploma thesis.
trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.
You can give buttons and fields colors and color pictures.
Buttons can have color icons.
You can cut, copy and paste color pictures and icons
to and from the clipboard.
You can move fields and buttons in color.
A help stack with extensive documentation is included.
trueColor is free for non-commercial use.
trueColor requires HyperCard 2.2 or later*,
a 68020 processor or higher (including any PowerPC processor).
Some features require 32-Bit QuickDraw (included in Sys 7).
I have submitted trueColor to the Macintosh archives
at the University of Michigan and at Stanford (Info-Mac).
You can also download it at: www.generation.net/~alainsta/x
(it's only 91K).
Alain Stalder
* trueColor runs very slowly on PowerMacs in Hypercard 2.2
if you have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.
DJ Feldmeyer wrote:
>
> Perhaps someone can improve on the following script, which is slow and
> ugly. I've set a font and style for a bg field, but when I paste text
> into it the text comes in with its own font and style. This script
> returns it to my preference. First, is there any way to paste the text
> in to take the font and style of the field, rather than retaining the
> pasted text's attributes? If not, why do I have to go through the text
> one line at a time, as follows, to reset it? The script:
Just press shift while pasting.
Alain Stalder
PS: you probably won't need it any more, but this would be a faster
script:
select text of field "Text"
doMenu "Espy Sans"
doMenu 10
select empty
Jacqueline Landman Gay wrote:
>
> In article <malcolm-0307961308360001@adi004.adi.co.nz>, malcolm@adi.co.nz
> (Malcolm Bowers) wrote:
>
> > The trouble is that when you Command-Option-click any text in a locked
> > field under these conditions, the word clicked is selected (with a box,
> > like found text), and popped into the message box, which appears whether
> > or not there is a menu command for it. I really don't want that message
> > box there!
>
> Actually, when you Command-click (even without the Option key) this
> behavior occurs.There isn't any way to stop it.
Actually, I know a way to stop it. You can put the following
handler into the script of the field:
on mouseDown
click at the mouseLoc
end mouseDown
(For Malcolm Bowers needs, I think, moving the message box off
the screen is definitely more elegant. The above handler could be
useful if you want unlocked fields to respond to mouse clicks, while
maintaining quick access to the message box.)
Alain Stalder
Is there a *fast* way to access properties of HyperCard objects
from an XCMD (i.e. other than calling EvalExpr) ?
I have written a stack called 'trueColor'
which automatically colorizes cards
based on the properties of buttons and fields.
Color and references to PICT resources
are stored in the script of the buttons/fields.
(More info at "http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x").
Unless there are large color pictures on the card,
most of the time is used up for accessing the properties
of buttons and fields (rect, icon, visible, etc.) and
not for the actual painting. Painting using an XCMD
is only marginally faster than using a script.
Is there a safe way to access the data fork of an open stack ?
Does anybody know where to find documentation about
the data structure of a HyperCard stack ?
Thanks for any tips, Alain
trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.
You can give buttons and fields colors and color pictures.
Buttons can have color icons.
You can cut, copy and paste color pictures and icons
to and from the clipboard.
You can move fields and buttons in color.
A help stack with extensive documentation is included.
Changes in this final version of trueColor:
* you can press shift while moving buttons and fields
to move them vertically or horizontally only
* white pixels in pictures are now really painted transparently
* there is some additional help, especially for beginners
trueColor requires HyperCard 2.2 or later*,
a 68020 processor or higher (including any PowerPC processor).
Some features require 32-Bit QuickDraw (included in Sys 7).
* trueColor runs very slowly on PowerMacs in Hypercard 2.2
if you have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.
trueColor is free for non-commercial use.
Alain Stalder
--
If you want, you can get trueColor at http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x
or in about a week or two at the Info-Mac archive (I just submitted it).
> In article <AE2C3127-23BEA@205.205.118.21>, "Alain Stalder"
> <alainsta@generation.net> wrote:
>
> > trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.
[snip]
> > * trueColor runs very slowly on PowerMacs in Hypercard 2.2
> > if you have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.
>
> Sounds very interesting, but I run (and need) Ramdoubler. Why does it
slow
> down so much? Have you reported this to Connectix? I would imagine that
> they would be interested to hear this report.
>
The slowing down that I observed was only on *PowerMacs* with
*SpeedDoubler* installed and only in *HyperCard 2.2*
(or the 68K version of HyperCard 2.3).
It does not occur in the PowerPC native version of HyperCard 2.3.
I don't own *RAMDoubler*.
Did you try out trueColor on your (Power)Mac and it was
much slower with RAMDoubler installed ?
I am not sure why SpeedDoubler slows trueColor down.
It might have to do with many mode switches
between native and 68K emulation (the colorizeHC XCMD
is an 68K XCMD, but the QuickDraw routines it uses are native).
I did not contact Connectix. My guess is that they would probably
recommend upgrading to HyperCard 2.3.
Sorry I cannot be of more help.
Alain
Jordan Reiter <jreiter@comet.net> wrote:
> I've heard rumors of it. Does anyone know when it's finally coming, and
> what updates it has that jacks it all the way up to 3?
>
There are two paragraphs about HyperCard 3.0
in TidBits #329, 20 May 1996
(http://hacksaw.cac.psu.edu/~pml105/tidbits/TidBITS-329.html).
According to the article, HyperCard 3.0 should appear
in spring of 1997, together with QuickTime 3.0.
As far as I understand from the article
(I did not see the described demo of HyperCard 3.0),
HyperCard will be integrated into QuickTime,
making HyperCard stacks playable from any appliction
that can play QuickTime movies.
This is probably great news for developers of multimedia
products (automatic Windows compatibility, Color, Internet).
I use HyperCard in a totally different way, mainly for
thinking and creating. I like HyperCard so much because
of its unobtrusive beauty and the total freedom --
I can control the whole computer (menus, keys, every
pixel on the screen, etc.) without having my thoughts
wander much awayfrom what I want to do towards purely
technical things.
So I am a bit concerned and hope that HyperCard 3.0
will be something that I want to buy.
Alain Stalder
PS: I am not totally sure, but wasn't it HyperCard
that inspired the guys at CERN to create the Web ?
Sharing HyperCard stacks directly over the net
could eliminate a lot of overhead involved
in creating HTML documents. Since web pages are
viewed on a computer screen, a card based approach,
where pictures etc. are placed with the mouse
would make some sense.
It is also strange that there are no full screen
web browsers where you would be totally immersed
in the net.
CyberCard rules !
There is a lot of information about HyperCard 3.0 at the "HyperCard
Heaven":
http://members.aol.com/hcheaven/index.html
On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, L Butler wrote:
> I was wondering it was possible to have HC build a color PICT graphic
> using the drawing tools for color and but placing individual graphics on
> top of each other, and then exporting that final image as a graphics file?
>
> I'd like to have HC build graphics for our Web site and then take the
> finshed image and convert it to GIF for the Web. There would be something
> like 10-15 individual pictures making the image, but I want all of them to
> be exported as one image, is it possible?
About a week ago I had the same problem. I rewrote my web site
as a HyperCard stack and used a second HyperCard stack to
automatically create a GIF or JPEG file of each card of the stack
(and also a HTML file and MAP file for navigating between cards
based on the scripts of buttons and fields of the stack).
I solved the conversion problem in the following way:
First I took a screen shot using the doFKEY XCMD by John Pugh
(doFKEY 3). Then I converted the "rect of this card" to a
GIF/JPEG file using AppleScript and the Freeware program
"clip2gif" by Ives Piguet. The program comes with full
documentation of about how to use it with AppleScript.
As far as I know, there are also several similar conversion
programs around. If you only need to convert one card, you might
of course do the above by hand (cmd-shift-3 for screen shot,...).
Alain Stalder
--
alainsta@generation.net
http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x/
(yes, that's the site mentioned above)
On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Tom Witte wrote:
> There is a xcmd that is suppose to let std effects work with color tools.
Do you know the name of that XCMD or where it is available ?
Alain
--
alainsta@generation.net
http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x
Sorry for the empty message,
I just put the new version of trueColor (1.02)
onto my web site:
http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x
trueColor now works with HyperCard 2.1 or later.
This was possible, because an external function is used
to collect part properties with the additional result that
painting cards is now about 50-100% faster.
It is still only 90k to download.
I also put a set of HyperCard tools onto my web site
which let you print cards in color (independent of
trueColor), convert from trueColor to Apple's Color Tools,
create web pages from stacks, and more ...
These are not commercial products,
all my stacks are Freeware.
Alain Stalder (alainsta@generation.net)
--
This is the "read me" file of trueColor:
trueColor provides an intuitive way to work in color in HyperCard.
You can give buttons and fields colors and color pictures.
Buttons can have color icons.
You can cut, copy and paste color pictures and icons
to and from the clipboard.
You can move fields and buttons in color.
The information about the color properties is
stored within the buttons and fields,
so eg. moving a button with a color icon
requires only to move the button,
not the button first, and then a color overlay.
trueColor requires HyperCard 2.1 or later
a 68020 or higher, preferably a PowerPC or a fast 68k Mac.
Some features require 32-bit QuickDraw (included in Sys 7),
QuickTime, or a monitor with at least 16 colors/grays.
trueColor is
=A9 Copyright 1996 by Alain Stalder.
All Rights Reserved.
It is free for non-commerial use.
Changes in 1.02 (dec'96)
trueColor now works with HyperCard 2.1 or later.
This was possible, because an external function is used
to collect part properties with the additional result that
painting cards is now about 50-100% faster.
There is a minor pitfall if you used an earlier version
of trueColor: you will have to press ctrl-t once on
every background that uses trueColor in order to update it.
This replaces the background button trueColor by
a field of the same name (HyperCard 2.1 cannot put
any contents into buttons).
The external function accesses the open stack as a binary file.
The script version for painting cards is still in trueColor
and is used if the XFCN fails or the version of HyperCard is 3.0 or
higher.
As a side effect, trueColor is no longer slow in HyperCard 2.2
on PowerMacs that have Connectix SpeedDoubler installed.
The screen is now locked before going from card to card.
Color fillings are no longer shown on screens with less
than 16 colors/grays (wrong colors were displayed).
The control-key for showing the pasting options is now ctrl-o.
(ctrl-p is reserved for printing in color.)
Troubleshooting
There is a flaw in Apple's Color Tools that can conflict
with trueColor; it occurs only if you have colorized
your home stack using Apple's Color Tools.
In that case, the following handlers have been put into the
script of your home stack:
on openCard
Send colorMe to this card
pass openCard
end openCard
on closeCard
lock screen
pass closeCard
end closeCard
on openStack
AddColor install
pass openStack
end openStack
on closeStack
AddColor remove
pass closeStack
end closeStack
The problem is that for example the openStack message
is sent to the home stack even if another stack is opened.
The solution is simply to check if the home stack was opened.
Just replace the above handlers in your home stack by these:
on openCard
if long name of this stack is long name of home
then Send colorMe to this card
pass openCard
end openCard
on closeCard
if long name of this stack is long name of home
then lock screen
pass closeCard
end closeCard
on openStack
if long name of this stack is long name of home
then AddColor install
pass openStack
end openStack
on closeStack
if long name of this stack is long name of home
then AddColor remove
pass closeStack
end closeStack
Note that your home stack will still be in color, i.e. these changes
are fully compatible with Apple's Color Tools.
If you got the following error message when trying out
my "spider" stack (a very simple stack that converts
specially written HyperCard stacks to web pages):
Clip2gif got an error: Cannot make data into the expected type.
then you can find a fixed version [7K] at
http://www.generation.net/~alainsta/x
Thanks to Doug Rogers <drogers@icis.on.ca> who pointed
out the bug on the HyperCard mailing list a few weeks ago
and with whom I exchanged several e-mails to track down the error.
Merry Xmas everybody
Alain Stalder
(alainsta@generation.net)
PS: The problem was the AppleScript command to convert a screenshot
of the card window to a GIF/JPEG file using the program
clip2gif. Instead of eg.
save file "Harddisk:Picture 1" as GIF in file ...
the command originally was
save "Harddisk:Picture 1" as GIF in file ...
which works only on some systems, including the ones
I originally tested it on.
I have updated my HyperCard stacks to reflect my new
addresses:
http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/WWW/stalder/x
astalder@webshuttle.ch
and fixed a bug in one of the stacks.
trueColor provides intuitive Color for HyperCard 2.1
or later; the trueTools let you for example print
cards in color (although only at screen resolution)
or convert specially written stacks to to web pages.
For more information check out the web site;
the stacks are only 200k total to download.
Alain
> (May I dare to append another little question: is there a possibility to
> make "Chooser-choices" from within HyperCard?, in this case to select
> the fax driver and then, after faxing, to reselect my normal StyleWriter
> on the Serial Port automatically?)
There is an external command (XCMD) called "ChoosePrinter"
in Rinaldi's External Collection that should do what you want:
ftp://ftp.supelec.fr/pub/machines/macintosh/Rinaldi_Collection/US_Version/Chooser_2.2_%28US%29.sit.hqx
Alain Stalder
--
astalder@webshuttle.ch
http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/WWW/stalder/x
Karl Becker (funkboy@btigate.com) wrote:
> I'm attempting to write my first XCMD, and I'm trying to find some help
> on what to do. I have all the big time stuff (Codewarrior 11 AND Pro
> Release #1) , but I just can't find an empty XCMD shell that could aid
> me along well enough. I tried to download the file that was at the XCMD
> Hideout (The detailed one written by Mark Hanrek) , but the server kept
> saying it was busy. If anyone could give me a different URL or just
> some general XCMD advice I'd appreciate it.
There used to be sample XCMD projects on the CodeWarrior 10 CD.
Maybe they were thrown out in version 11, but it might be worth
a quick look.
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
583646cdf33605d4cdcdd77ed9a78a2c
9506a242d7d22ff7b0c3b74e3a5c93150767a09f
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> I managed to get an error reading:
> Warning: Public class Welcome must be defined in a file called
> "Welcome.java".
Simply rename your source file to "Welcome.java" (case sensitive).
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
583646cdf33605d4cdcdd77ed9a78a2c
9506a242d7d22ff7b0c3b74e3a5c93150767a09f
> I have am able to get the 'color picker' to appear in my own stack by
> using 'cntrl-f' but after I choose a color and close the picker, the
color
> does not appear in the field or button where the mouse was positioned.
Might be lack of memory. The trueHelp stack is only about 400x250
pixels,
so it needs less memory to display color than a larger stack.
(You can give HyperCard more memory by selecting it in the Finder and
choosing "Get Info" from the "File" menu).
Alain Stalder
astalder@webshuttle.ch
>This is a test.
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
begin certificate
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end certificate
[base64-encoded concatenation of four items (binary): MD5 and SHA1
hashes of jan2000.txt "Discovery Disclosure (January 2000)", as well as SHA-1
hash and value of the e-timestamp.com signature of the same document]
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Jacqueline Landman Gay wrote:
> HyperCard, on the other hand, has no such focus. Because it is so hard
> to define what HyperCard is, it is just as hard to find a key strategy
> that will sell it to the masses. He said he reads each letter we send,
> looking for a key phrase or idea that will define a market focus -- but
> while each letter contains a use for HyperCard that is important to each
> user's unique situation, no letter has had a focus that Apple could
> adopt as a wide-spread marketing tactic. Again, "programming" or
> "empowerment" is not good enough; the masses either don't care, or the
> concept is too general.
I think there is no such key phrase or idea, there is no simple catchy
way to convince people to buy HyperCard. HyperCard is too general; it
does what an operating system does, it hides technical details from the
user.
In my opinion, the only way to sell HyperCard, is to include it into
the operation system; this strategy has already worked quite well in
the past. I would try to write a few applications that people will use
every day as HyperCard stacks. From the top of my head, those could
for example be an e-mail client, a photo album, Sherlock...
That way people would end up in HyperCard almost daily and eventually
start to make some modifications to existing stacks: add a new button,
maybe after some time write a little script - exactly as it has happend
more than ten years ago.
For Apple I see two ways how to make money out of this:
- Many people will be much more bound to the Mac than without HyperCard.
If you have modified, say, your e-mail client by adding a custom
background you like and some extra buttons that do repetious tasks
for you, you are much more unlikely to switch to a differnt computer
than if you were using, say, Netscape as a mail client.
- Apple could sell a HyperCard Pro for, say, 30$, like it does with
QuickTime. The lite version included in the operating system should
allow (almost?) full scripting, though, else, as pointed out above,
people are unlikely ever to buy the Pro version because they never
discovered that it could do something useful for them. I think a good
way to limit the lite version would be to limit the maximal size of
the stack or the maximal number of cards it can contain (larger stacks
than that would have the userLevel limited to typing or maybe painting
only).
Any comments ?
Do you think such a strategy could work and be profitable ?
Any good ideas for HyperCard "applications" to include into MacOS ?
Feel free to forward this message or the ideas it contains to anybody
you see fit.
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
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'double' is a primitive data type in Java along with
int, char, etc.; 'Double' with a capital D is
a Java class with methods. One of its methods is
doubleValue() which returns a double value.
The other three errors oocur because the compiler
could not tell for sure if the three variables
pp, rr and tt had been initialized.
You could rewrite
> double pp;
> double rr;
> int tt;
[...]
> for(int i = 0;i< args.length; i++) {
> switch(i) {
> case 1:
> pp = Double.valueOf(args[i]);
> case 2:
> rr = Double.valueOf(args[i]);
> case 3:
> tt = Integer.parseInt(args[i]);
> }
> }
as
double pp = Double.valueOf(args[0]).doubleValue();
double rr = Double.valueOf(args[1]).doubleValue();
double tt = Integer.parseInt(args[2]);
Hope this helps.
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
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In the init() method the variable MsgNumber is
only initialized if param is not null.
> if ( param != null )
> MsgNumber = new Integer(param).intValue();
Also the paint() method will fail if MsgNumber
is not initialized.
Hope this helps.
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
begin certificate
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end certificate
Thanks everybody for the feedback...
Let me first say a few more things about my original post and
maybe clarify a few points...
A few years ago, somebody on this newsgroup or on the HyperCard
mailing list described one of her first experiences with HyperCard.
(I don't remember for sure who it was, but I think it might have
been Jacqueline Landman Gay).
As I remember, she described the feeling of power she had when
she hid the menubar for the first time. No marketing, not even
the coolest TV ad can give you such a feeling. I think, HyperCard
has become so important to many people because they did something
themselves with HyperCard that they are proud of. That is why many
people would almost rather die than to buy a computer that has
no HyperCard; that is why some people are fighting so much to
preserve HyperCard.
That is essentially why I wrote that I think that the only way to
sell HyperCard is by letting people use it and discover the
HyperCard experience for themselves.
I think a niche market is too small for HyperCard (maybe not really,
but for Apple to consider it worth the effort). The world has
changed since the first Macs were introduced about 15 years ago.
Today most people who buy an iMac or an iBook use their computer
as consumers, more like a TV. I think that, compared to 15 years
ago, there is probably a lower percentage of users now that
really create things on a computer (other that writing a few
letters from time to time).
Now, if HyperCard is part of the operating system and if, say,
Sherlock is a HyperCard stack, then people will start creating
things without noticing. Suppose Apple provides some customizable
search buttons, then people will start copying those around and
customize them. This is one of the greatest advantages of HyperCard:
you become a programmer in small steps without even noticing, and,
most importantly, each step is immediately rewarded by something
you did yourself that works and is useful for you (or others, or
is something that looks good, or something you can show off to
others, etc.).
In his October 1999 interview in Time Magazine, Steve Jobs says:
[http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,32207-1,00.html]
> Reinventing Apple
> One of the things that happened when we got back to Apple was, we
> said, Apple's all confused. Apple's forgotten what it is. Who is
> Apple? Why is Apple here? Remember, the roots of Apple were to
> build computers for people, not for corporations. At the time we
> started Apple, IBM built computers for corporations. Now it's
> Microsoft and Intel. But there was nobody building a computer for
> people. Funny enough, 20 years after we started Apple, there was
> nobody building computers for people again. You know? They were
> trying to sell consumers last year's corporate computers. We said,
> "Well, these are our roots. This is why we're here. The world
> doesn't need another Dell or Compaq. They need an Apple."
[...]
In my opinion this clearly shows that Apple is not very much
interested in selling a product to a niche market, they want to
produce computers and software for most people.
Dominique Delefortrie <dd11@free.fr> wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch> wrote:
>
> > - Apple could sell a HyperCard Pro for, say, 30$, like it does with
> > QuickTime. The lite version included in the operating system should
> > allow (almost?) full scripting, though, else, as pointed out above,
>
> and call the lite version "HyperCard Player" ;->
>
> Or -- allow scripting, but with max 10 lines useful script, as in
> something beginning with "Meta" ;->>
Thanks for you comments, Dominique. Do I correctly interpret
the ";->" and ";->>" as sarkasm ?
"HyperCard Player" is probably the last name I would choose; it is
exactly not meant as program that is good only for consuming something
that somebody else created. I would rather call it "HyperCard" and the
30$ version "HyperCard Pro".
Limiting the number of lines in a script that one can edit and change
to 10 lines seems too drastic to me. You cannot do anything sensible
with 10 lines. I would do it more gently.
If the maximal number of cards is limited to 20 cards and you have
made or customized, say, an address book stack then you will be able
to use it and do everything you want until you want to enter data for
the 21st person. Now you have at least two options. The first is to
split your address book into two (and later maybe more) stacks.
This will mean some extra work, but you can do it. The alternative is
to go to Apple's web site, register it, and a few minutes later will
have a full version (just by entering a registration code, no download).
It would probably be a good idea to provide some more features other
than removing the limit of number of cards if you want to sell
HyperCard Pro for 30$. These could be additional documentation, stacks,
external functions, etc. that you could download from the web.
(You would have to indicate a valid combination of name and
registration code at Apple's web site in order to download).
<george.claesNOgeSPAM@village.uunet.be.invalid> wrote:
> I red at MacCentral Online that the future of Hypercard hangs on
> successful marketing niche.
> I have the feelings that Apple doesn't know his customers : the
> marketing niche are all the people that is using hypercard and buying
> Macintosh computers since over years. For myself : wath links me to
> Apple-Macintosh is Hypercard and I have bought yet 5 Macintosh
> computers in 8 years. If the next computer I'll buy will be a
> Apple-Macintosh depends on if I'll be able to continue working with
> Hypercard.
> For the new customers : Hypercard can be presented as the Swiss knife,
> you can use it in so many circumstances and for so many goals. That is
> just his power.
Thanks for your comments, George.
The impression I got from the Interview that Jacqueline Landman Gay and
Steve Collins had with Apple's Phil Schiller is rather that Apple does
recognize that there are people that are using and depending on
HyperCard, but also that those people are not going pay enough money
to pay for development of a new version. Or, even if it would pay,
Apple probably feels that HyperCard developers at Apple could have done
other more profitable things for Apple.
The term "swiss knife" is certainly good, but, as I understand the
interview with Phil Schiller, Apple does not think that that would
be sufficient to market HyperCard as a separate product.
Here is the corresponding paragraph from the interview again.
Jacqueline Landman Gay wrote:
> HyperCard, on the other hand, has no such focus. Because it is so hard
> to define what HyperCard is, it is just as hard to find a key strategy
> that will sell it to the masses. He said he reads each letter we send,
> looking for a key phrase or idea that will define a market focus -- but
> while each letter contains a use for HyperCard that is important to each
> user's unique situation, no letter has had a focus that Apple could
> adopt as a wide-spread marketing tactic. Again, "programming" or
> "empowerment" is not good enough; the masses either don't care, or the
> concept is too general.
I would rather try to market HyperCard as part of MacOS. HyperCard would
be one point besides, say voice login, Sherlock, etc. I think, associating
HyperCard with a swiss knife would be a good idea.
> Hi All.
>
> I like Alain's approach. I also like the comments that George Claes
> made.
>
> I originally used HyperCard to learn about the Mac. It was shipped as
> part of the Apple "parcel". I later upgraded from 1.2 to 2.1, but not
> since. I have never felt that there was enough in the upgrades to
> warrant the money. I used it for a data dictionary for a programming
> project and it did well in that role.
>
> Another super product is Prograph. This is a visual programming language
> that has both high and low level capability. It too is passionately
> loved by its user community. However, Pictorius, the owner has abandoned
> it as a general purpose development tool. They now use it as a tool to
> help corporate organizations develop Web based businesses.
>
> Now my thoughts are this - could HyperCard do this? The answer is
> definitely "YES". There is/was a product called HyperGASP. I have used
> this to develop Web pages in HTML, without writing a line of HTML code.
> The advantage is that you can prove all the links without writing any
> HyperTalk code or generating the HTML. The finished HyperCard version
> stands on its own, but HyperGASP allows you to generate the HTML too.
>
> No one can deny the impact that the Internet has had on modern
> businesses. Now, I think I am right when I say that Apple does not have
> a Web development product. HyperCard could very well become that
> solution if HyperCard 3.0 is given this direction. Let's face it, both
> HC and HTML are hypertext!
>
> That's my 2 penn'th (2 cents worth if you prefer! ;-).
Thanks for your comments, Shane.
Unfortunately, Apple is already selling a product called WebObjects
(developed originally at NEXT, I think) which according to Apple's
web site is aimed at the follwowing customers:
> The #1 application server on the market just got even better. With
> major advances in performance and Java functionality, WebObjects 4 is
> perfect for everything from small workgroups to large corporate web
> sites and extranets serving millions of users.
Maybe HyperCard could be sold as a Apple's tool that allow's the
"average Joe" to create and maintain his/her web site ?
I think it would be hard to convice Apple to do so because there are
several different programs like that out there already. And it seems
to me that at least some of those other programs are easier to market
because they are essentially word processors that produce web pages
("With our product, creating a web page is as easy as writing a
letter.")
Again, Apple could build HyperCard into the MacOS and provide some
stacks that let you easily create a web page. That feature could
easily be marketed as part of marketing Mac OS.
I am now seriously considering to contact Apple about the idea to
market HyperCard as part of MacOS. I am thinking about an e-mail
to Phil Schiller and Steve Jobs that contains a single gif file
that presents the idea as directly as possible.
I know there are lots of people here who have been fighting for
HyperCard during the last few years. I don't want to step on your toes.
If anyone of you feels that sending such an e-mail to Apple directly
would rather jeopardize your efforts or if you would rather contact
Apple yourself in the matter, please say so.
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
begin certificate
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end certificate
In article <1iba5.97292$Do1.1085547@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>, "Mike"
<hartman316@home.com> wrote:
> Hi.. i'm 15.. I was wondering if there are really good books or someting
> to
> learn java.. complete beginner also how much do java developers get paid
>
>
I can recommend "Java Developer's Resource" by Elliote Rusty Harold
very much:
http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/jdr/
Unfortunatlely it seems to be out of print now; the author writes:
"It is now out of print, though copies of the first edition are fairly
easily available through standard used book channels."
Hope this helps
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
begin certificate
DZodO12rbj9xAV0UeFWllhq1FMkHjO2qS8rFtBYwcQmkV6ORLMXtBdVONyFUD2tmfmrZK/Re
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XJ49eUXqBV5hWWIJ0azUAviumcPupQlLAcGQMQ==
end certificate
[Hashes, timestamp (e-timestamp.com) and signature (Swisskey) of jan2000.txt
"Discovery Disclosure (January 2000)" derived in the same fashion as described
in Appendix B of discoveries.pdf "A few new discoveries in physics".
Also published as a bitmap in the about box of the PalmOS astrology program
"Delphi" in versions 1.0, 1.01 and 1.02]
I forgot to mention that the first three chapters of the book
are online.
Alain
In article <astalder-72DEF1.15102410072000@news.webshuttle.ch>, Alain
Stalder <astalder@webshuttle.ch> wrote:
> In article <1iba5.97292$Do1.1085547@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>, "Mike"
> <hartman316@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi.. i'm 15.. I was wondering if there are really good books or
> > someting
> > to
> > learn java.. complete beginner also how much do java developers get
> > paid
> >
> >
>
> I can recommend "Java Developer's Resource" by Elliote Rusty Harold
> very much:
>
> http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/jdr/
>
> Unfortunatlely it seems to be out of print now; the author writes:
>
> "It is now out of print, though copies of the first edition are fairly
> easily available through standard used book channels."
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
>
> --
> begin certificate
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> end certificate
In article <39693e4e@flexnet239.uunt.net>, "Lisa Thornsbury"
<gotmilk230@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> --
> --Chibi-chan
>
> ***Plushie of the Week: Mirai Matt***
>
> This week's plushie comes in two different styles. MiraiMatt-AWAY will
> say
> he's away, but stay and talk for a while longer. Mirai Matt with Newbie
> Flaming Action is the hottest item of the year! He comes with an actual
> flame thrower and pot holders. Be careful not to squeeze this one too
> hard!
>
> Heh. Guess what Joel. Now I've got enough space alloted to be able to
> quote
> parts of the chats... ~.^
>
>
Testing...
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
begin certificate
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end certificate
sadfsdafsdaafsdaf
sdfsdafsdafsdfdsaafdsaf
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Delphi is a free, easy to use astrology program for Palm OS devices.
It lets you create, view, organize and beam birth charts.
Delphi calculates positions of the sun, the moon, all nine planets
and the true moon node with a resolution of about one arc minute.
You have access to timezone data of about 350 locations worldwide.
Because the screens of Palm devices are so small, a static chart
drawing would not be very useful. In Delphi you can click, for
example, on a planet in a birth chart and immediately the chart
drawing will show only aspects to that planet and how strong they
are. Similarly, you can focus on specific aspects, signs or houses.
Otherwise Delphi behaves much like a standard Palm OS application:
You can organize charts in categories, sort them manually or
alphabetically, and, if your Palm device has infrared beaming
hardware, send or receive charts to/from others.
Finally, Delphi has a built in astrological clock, i.e. a chart
for now.
Download from http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29
(or from Palmgear: http://www.palmgear.com).
delphi29@excite.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
test 123456abcdefg
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
test aaaa bbbb cccc dddd eeee
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
* Ever needed to calculate an accurate birth chart on the road
with no PC around ?
Then check out Delphi, a free, accurate and intuitive astrology
program for Palm OS devices. It lets you create, view, organize
and beam birth charts.
* Think the screen of a Palm device is too small to display
a birth chart readably and with all the necessary information ?
It can be done, check out the manual online to see for yourself:
- http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/delphi.html
Or download directly (including docs, 240K):
- Windows: http://delphi29.tripod.com/delphi.zip
- Mac: http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/delphi.sit
* Need to exchange charts with others ?
Using the infrared beamers (like TV remote controls) that
most newer Palm devices have, you can easily and quite
non-technically exchange birth charts with others.
* Delphi calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
order of one arc minute. You have access to UNIX time zone data
for about 350 locations on earth.
Check out a detailed account of Delphi's accuracy at:
- http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/accuracy.html
You be the judge if Delphi is fit to be used by
professionals on the road, yet...
delphi29@excite.com
--
System requirements: Any Palm OS device with Palm OS 2.0 or later,
including Handspring Visors, etc.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
timing test 10:23 pm
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
begin certificate
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end certificate
[Hashes, timestamp (e-timestamp.com) and signature (Swisskey) of mar2001.txt
"Discovery Disclosure (March 2001)" derived in the same fashion as described
in Appendix B of discoveries.pdf "A few new discoveries in physics".
Also published as a bitmap in the about box of the PalmOS astrology program
"Delphi" in versions 1.20 and 1.21]
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cml0dGVuLg==
For introduction, I can recommends
http://www.ibiblio.org/javafaq/books/jdr/
http://www.ibiblio.org/javafaq/books/jdr/
> I have also been trying to get my son to learn a language and would
> appreciate book recomendations/comments on Java as a first language.
>
> Please reply directly to me as I do not read these news groups.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff.
> I know C/C++ and would like to learn Java, if anyone can recommend good
> teaching books as well as reference books, I would appreciate it.
>
> I have also been trying to get my son to learn a language and would
> appreciate book recomendations/comments on Java as a first language.
I can recommend "The Java Developer's Resource" by Elliote Rusty Harold,
for starting with Java. It is only about Java 1.0 and apparently out of print,
but the author promises a new edition also covering Java 2 on web site:
http://www.ibiblio.org/javafaq/books/jdr/
Alain Stalder (astalder@webshuttle.ch)
--
begin certificate
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end certificate
Some text...
Alain Stalder
--
begin certificate
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end certificate
[Hashes, timestamp (e-timestamp.com) and signature (Swisskey) of may2001.txt
"Discovery Disclosures by Alain Stalder, Collated in May 2001" as described
in Appendix B of discoveries.pdf "A few new discoveries in physics".
Also published as a bitmap in the about box of the PalmOS astrology program
"Delphi" in versions 2.00 and 2.01. Note also that the Delphi 2.01 binary
contains the MD5 and SHA1 hashes of discoveries.pdf and review.pdf.]
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cmNlcyBmb3IgbGVhcm5pbmcgYXN0cm9sb2d5IHdlcmUgbWFpbmx5IHRoZSB0d28gYm9va3MgYnkgTGl6
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MTk5OSBhbmQgMjAwMSwgb3RoZXIgYm9va3MsDQp0aGUgaW50ZXJuZXQgYW5kIG9ic2VydmF0aW9uIG9m
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THlyYSBhbmQgcGxheWVkIHNvbWUgbXVzaWMgb24gaXQsDQppdCBpcyB5b3VyIHR1cm4gdG8gbGVhcm4g
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IG1vcmUgYmVhdXRpZnVsIG11c2ljIHRoYW4gbWUsIGFzIGRpZCBBcG9sbG9uIGNvbXBhcmVkIHRvIEhl
cm1lcy4NCg0KDQpSZWZlcmVuY2VzDQoNClsxXSBEaXNvdmVyeSBEaXNjbG9zdXJlIChKYW51YXJ5IDE5
OTgpLCBieSBBbGFpbiBTdGFsZGVyLg0KWzJdIERpc292ZXJ5IERpc2Nsb3N1cmUgKEphbnVhcnkgMjAw
MCksIGJ5IEFsYWluIFN0YWxkZXIuDQo=
Delphi is a free, accurate and intuitive astrology program
for PalmOS handhelds. It lets you create, view, organize and
beam birth charts and view synastry charts.
Intuitive Use
Delphi tries to make most of the small screen that Palm devices
have. And it tries to do it in a natural, intutive way: When you
look at a chart printed on paper, you often focus your eyes onto
different objects when needed. For example, you search for the
symbol of the moon and then you look what sign it is in or what
aspects it has. Similarly you may want to focus onto trines or
want to know which signs are in the 12th house.
Delphi lets you do this almost as intuitively as you are used to:
Instead of focussing with your eyes only, you use the pen to
focus too. Thus you search for the symbol of the moon, tap on it
and immediately only aspects to the moon are shown, immediately
it is indicated how strong those aspects are and the position of
the moon is shown with more precision. Similarly, you can focus
on aspects, signs or houses.
Otherwise Delphi behaves like a standard Palm application: You
can organize charts in categories, sort them manually or
alphabetically, and, if your Palm device has infrared beaming
hardware, send or receive charts to/from others. This allows you
to exchange charts with others quickly and in quite a natural,
non-technical way.
Finally, Delphi lets you view synastry (relationship) charts;
either between two birth charts or between a birth chart and the
built-in astrological clock.
Accuracy
Delphi uses the astrolib library to calculate positions of sun,
moon, planets up to Pluto and the true moon node with an accuracy
of the order of one arc minute. Also through astrolib, you have
access to UNIX time zone data for about 350 locations world-wide,
plus about 2000 additional locations of which each one has been
assigned to one of the 350 UNIX time zone locations.
See http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/accuracy.html for a
detailed account of Delphi's accuracy, listing positions with
errors for three charts, two from the 20th century and a
historical one from the year 800, calculated using the Julian
Calendar.
You be the judge if Delphi is fit to be used by professionals on
the road, yet...
Manual
Go to http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29/delphi.html to view the
manual online, or download Delphi, including the documentation,
from http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29.
New Features in Version 2.00
- Extended atlas with 2500 locations
- Color for aspects
- Uses Porphyry houses within polar circles
- astrolib is faster and can be put in flash ROM
New Features since Version 1.20
- Synastry (relationship) charts
- Less picky about manual entry of position and time zone
Hope you like it,
delphi29@excite.com
In MacOS X, Command-Tab seems to switch between applications.
Is there a workaround ?
(I could not find anything by searching the web and older
news posts).
Alain Stalder
"Tom M. Witte" wrote:
> In article <8c853792.0201140531.3347c403@posting.google.com>,
> astalder@webshuttle.ch (Alain Stalder) wrote:
>
> > In MacOS X, Command-Tab seems to switch between applications.
> > Is there a workaround ?
> > (I could not find anything by searching the web and older
> > news posts).
>
> In os 9 you could reset this using an applescript. look in the apple
> help in OS 9 classic.
In OS 9, the application switcher system extension was scriptable,
you could tell it to "set keyboard cycling active to false".
You can still do this in the classic environment, but is has
no longer any influence (except when booting with MacOS 9).
I guess under MacOS X, the Finder or maybe the Dock would have to
be adressed. Under OS 9, one can open an application using ResEdit
and look at the "aete" resource for a list of commands that the
application understands. Using "Show Package Contents" in the
MacOS X Finder for the Dock did not reveal anything similar,
for the Finder itself, there is no such item in the pop-up menu.
Is there another way or a documentation of scriptable MacOS X
applications ?
A more general question: Is anybody using HyperCard under OS X,
or are most people still using OS 9, so that this problem is not
an issue for most people ?
Alain Stalder
test
--
astalder@webshuttle.ch
on mouseUp
tell application "Finder"
shut down
end tell
end mouseUp
(as AppleScript script)
Alain Stalder
In article <e4d5d2fc.0203312016.2bca70a1@posting.google.com>,
biggestnerd23@yahoo.com (aaron) wrote:
> During eighth grade my friends and I enjoyed hacking each others
> hypercard stacks. We found a program that was used to shut down the
> computer. However we couldn't locate the exact code.
> I narowed it down to about 75 pages and I read every line of the
> first 50 and couldn't find it. [I got my friend to print it why the
> librarian wasn't looking and he only got 50 pages]
> Does anybody no how to shutdown the computer?
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that a large part of the document deals with astrology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that a large part of the document deals with astrology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that the document explicitly discusses a number of
philosophical issues, see paragraph 4 of the abstract.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that the document explicitly discusses a number of
philosophical issues, see paragraph 4 of the abstract.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that a large part of the document deals with psychology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that an important part of the document deals with
history, namely where the predictions corresponding to
paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below are applied
to some large scale historical events.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that an important part of the document deals with
history, namely where the predictions corresponding to
paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below are applied
to some large scale historical events.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that the document contains only a single, quite
speculative direct reference to cryptography, however
its impact is potentially crucial, hence this post.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
In article <aet201$1n8q$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:
> In article <astalder-4B7BF9.09001320062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> >Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> >phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
>
>
> Why go looking for an explanation of something that hasn't even been
> demonstrated to exist? Seems out of order to me.
>
> Bryan
Let me first describe what the document contains in simple
terms, before I answer the specific question:
It is a list of hypotheses that are essentially decidable
experimentally (I do not claim that they are true nor that
I have any proof for that; if I had, I would have presented
it in the paper). What the hypotheses do, however, is build
a coherent picture of many phenomena that scientists have
never been able to detect but nonetheless keep popping up
in some people's heads over and over again.
The basic idea is that there are unconscious connections
between people (maybe as suggested in the paper with a
long range and penetrating large amounts of mass, but
possibly only short range or in subliminal channels of
conversations or gestures etc.; see review.pdf in link
below) These unconscious connections build a large "brain"
(there are just a large bunch of brain cells connected
in some way). The document proposes that this "brain"
has intentions and feelings on its own, i.e. that it is
a living and at least somewhat intelligent organism on a
larger scale.
Now to the specific question: In the presented model, the
organism is alive and hence can interact actively and thus
make it a lot harder for the experimentator to find a definite
proof for some phenomena. I remember a german physicist (sorry,
I don't recall his name at the moment) who said that in his
experience such pheomena appear to be present at first, but
if one tries to reproduce things, they usually disappear so
that one is left with nothing that can be proven but still
with the impression that there is more than nothing there.
Moreover, there is up to now no exact way to measure the
content of, say, a dream and compare it to future real
events. Without that, it becomes impossible to prove
whether the content of a dream is just coincidentially
similar to future events or not. The simple astrological
model (if it is confirmed, of course), might allow to
transform dream content into numbers so that quantitative
comparisons would become possible.
Anyway, the document is no proof of anything, it is just a
list of opportunities to make experiments that could lead
to something really new - if anybody is convinced enough
that the hypotheses contain some reality to actually make
some experiments. Note that the simple astrological model of
section 2 of the document can readily be tested by anyone
by applying it to one's own family, but there are often also
psychological barriers that make this not so easy or desired.
(Of course, just because the model would fit your environement,
that would not be a proof in the strict sense, but might create
enough interest to make an experiment with a larger sample).
Alain
PS: The document is intended to be read from beginning to
end, as it builds as logically as possible from things said
previously. So, just browsing it and reading random passages
will only reveal sentences that appear to based on nothing
at all, while in reality they are often as closely as
possible based on previous hypotheses. The docment is very
densly written, almost nothing is ever repeated.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <3D11FA67.10A4C6B4@null.net>, "Douglas A. Gwyn"
<DAGwyn@null.net> wrote:
> Alain Stalder wrote:
> > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
>
> An explanation is not needed until the phenomena have been
> convincingly demonstrated. If you could demonstrate them,
> then why not take the Randi challenge and collect big bucks.
Let me answer with my reply to a similar question at
sci.physics. Since your reply does not concern the
reference to cryptography in the discoveries document,
I think the discussion should go to sci.physics.
Alain
--
In article <aet201$1n8q$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:
> In article <astalder-4B7BF9.09001320062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> >Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> >phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
>
>
> Why go looking for an explanation of something that hasn't even been
> demonstrated to exist? Seems out of order to me.
>
> Bryan
Let me first describe what the document contains in simple
terms, before I answer the specific question:
It is a list of hypotheses that are essentially decidable
experimentally (I do not claim that they are true nor that
I have any proof for that; if I had, I would have presented
it in the paper). What the hypotheses do, however, is build
a coherent picture of many phenomena that scientists have
never been able to detect but nonetheless keep popping up
in some people's heads over and over again.
The basic idea is that there are unconscious connections
between people (maybe as suggested in the paper with a
long range and penetrating large amounts of mass, but
possibly only short range or in subliminal channels of
conversations or gestures etc.; see review.pdf in link
below) These unconscious connections build a large "brain"
(there are just a large bunch of brain cells connected
in some way). The document proposes that this "brain"
has intentions and feelings on its own, i.e. that it is
a living and at least somewhat intelligent organism on a
larger scale.
Now to the specific question: In the presented model, the
organism is alive and hence can interact actively and thus
make it a lot harder for the experimentator to find a definite
proof for some phenomena. I remember a german physicist (sorry,
I don't recall his name at the moment) who said that in his
experience such pheomena appear to be present at first, but
if one tries to reproduce things, they usually disappear so
that one is left with nothing that can be proven but still
with the impression that there is more than nothing there.
Moreover, there is up to now no exact way to measure the
content of, say, a dream and compare it to future real
events. Without that, it becomes impossible to prove
whether the content of a dream is just coincidentially
similar to future events or not. The simple astrological
model (if it is confirmed, of course), might allow to
transform dream content into numbers so that quantitative
comparisons would become possible.
Anyway, the document is no proof of anything, it is just a
list of opportunities to make experiments that could lead
to something really new - if anybody is convinced enough
that the hypotheses contain some reality to actually make
some experiments. Note that the simple astrological model of
section 2 of the document can readily be tested by anyone
by applying it to one's own family, but there are often also
psychological barriers that make this not so easy or desired.
(Of course, just because the model would fit your environement,
that would not be a proof in the strict sense, but might create
enough interest to make an experiment with a larger sample).
Alain
PS: The document is intended to be read from beginning to
end, as it builds as logically as possible from things said
previously. So, just browsing it and reading random passages
will only reveal sentences that appear to based on nothing
at all, while in reality they are often as closely as
possible based on previous hypotheses. The docment is very
densly written, almost nothing is ever repeated.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
(Note that a large part of the document deals with astrology,
see paragraphs 2 and 3 of the abstract below.)
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: the full document has also been posted to
news://alt.binaries.misc
In article <3D124653.8020202@attbi.com>, "Robert J. Kolker"
<bobkolker@attbi.com> wrote:
> Alain Stalder wrote:
>
>
> > It is a list of hypotheses that are essentially decidable
> > experimentally (I do not claim that they are true nor that
> > I have any proof for that; if I had, I would have presented
> > it in the paper). What the hypotheses do, however, is build
> > a coherent picture of many phenomena that scientists have
> > never been able to detect but nonetheless keep popping up
> > in some people's heads over and over again.
>
>
> What happens in "peoples heads" are mostly delusion and subjective clap
> trap. What happens Out There is what counts. Out There is where the
> facts are. In Here is epiphenomenal balderdash.
>
>
> >
> > The basic idea is that there are unconscious connections
> > between people (maybe as suggested in the paper with a
> > long range and penetrating large amounts of mass, but
> > possibly only short range or in subliminal channels of
> > conversations or gestures etc.; see review.pdf in link
> > below) These unconscious connections build a large "brain"
> > (there are just a large bunch of brain cells connected
> > in some way). The document proposes that this "brain"
> > has intentions and feelings on its own, i.e. that it is
> > a living and at least somewhat intelligent organism on a
> > larger scale.
>
>
> There is not an iota of solid evidence supporting this assertion. All
> atempts to prove psi phenomena exist have come to naught.
>
> Bob Kolker
>
>
For one, I agree completely that only what happens Out There
is what counts in the end for physics. But I am also saying
quite clearly in the document (section 1.4) that previous
experiments trying to prove any kind of "psi phenomena" have
not been done properly to test the specific hypotheses I give.
I do not pretend to have a detailed overview about previous
experiments. However this is my impression:
Typically probands have not been separated sufficiently from
the rest of the world and most notably from the experimentators.
Sometimes maybe the sex of the probands has been noted, but not
of the experimentators. As I mention in the document in
section 1.4, such experiments have to be done very carefully
and one has first to exclude all other reasons of influence,
similar to what R.P. Feynman writes in "Cargo Cult Science"
about how to conduct experiments with rats in a maze.
To put it quite bluntly, previous experiments trying to
prove or disprove "psi phenomena" have not been done well
enough to detect the proposed effects.
General arguments will not stick. You will have either to
provide evidence (i.e. the results of previous experiments)
that explicitly prove the hypotheses mentioned in the document
false or else make new experiments that test specifically for
these hypotheses. Just giving general arguments of the kind
"previous experiments have yielded nothing" will not do here.
They simply do not apply to the hypotheses I make. (If one just
superficially reads over the document, they might appear to
do so, but not if things are looked at closely.)
Alain
In the document
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
I give a very simple model of astrology based on the four
elements and their transitions. It reproduces many predictions
of psychological astrology quite well. This makes it an ideal
candidate for experimental tests of astrology with the potential
to convince even the most sceptic scientists (only if the model
is confirmed, of course).
The model in essence (for details see the document):
Meanings associated with star signs derive from transitions
between the four elements. For fire, for example, the three
fire signs correspond to different stages in the life of
a fire. Aries (the first fire sign) is a fire that just
starts to burn, i.e. Aries is composed mainly of earth
(the wood that starts to burn) and only a little bit of
air (the smoke that emerges). Leo is composed of roughly
equal amounts of earth and air, corresponding to a fire
that is burning fully. Sagittarius is described by a
fire that is about to end.
The element earth is associated with the human body, as it
is women who create life like earth produces plants that feed
animals and humans. Accordingly, during a fire, the mortal,
human body is symbolically transformed into something eternal,
namely knowledge (air) that can be transmitted to the next
generation an thus becomes immortal. Hence the transition
from Aries via Leo to Sagittarius symbolically describes the
transition from animal to human to god. During that process,
the need for keeping things secret decreases (as one is
symbolically no longer mortal and hence does not need to
protect anything). The wound of Leo (e.g. Parsival) and
Sagittarius (e.g. Chiron) also shows in the fact that the
fire burns the human body and hence hurts it.
The document gives specific models for all four elements and
also a lot more. It is also proposed that one of the meanings
of planets is that they influence how one behaves relative
to different classes of people: Sun towards/as father, moon
towards/as mother, Venus towards women of roughly the same
age group (incl. lovers), Mars towards men of roughly the
same age group.
There is a lot in the document, including a lot of opportunities
to look at current psychological astrology from a different,
more analytical prespective (I have Pluto in Virgo, so this
maybe the first big thing you see from this generation).
And, as I said, the model is simple and specific enough to
be verified (or falsified) experimentally in quantitative
scientific experiments.
Alain
(I am a 35 year old physicist who lives in Zurich,
Switzerland; see web site indicated below for more info).
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <nFfQ8.1041$iG4.318@nwrddc04.gnilink.net>, "Joseph Martin
III" <joseph.martin54@verizon.net> wrote:
> Something seems amiss.....I can't find any actual experiment.......
>
> Don't think this will be making the pages of Science anytime soon.......
This is a misunderstanding. It is a theoretical paper, not
an experimental one. It simply lists a number of hypotheses
that can be decided experimentally in a quantitative way.
The burden of proof lies within experiment, not theory.
Experiment (nature) will show which hypotheses (if any)
have anything to do with reality.
The proposed model would give a simple and understandable
explanation for things that C.G. Jung named "collective
unconscious" or "sychronicity". In that sense, the model
deserves a closer look, at least from some psychologists.
I am a physicist; in the end what counts will be whether
these hypotheses are confirmed in a quantitative way or not.
Alain
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <3D11FA07.13DB61D3@null.net>, "Douglas A. Gwyn"
<DAGwyn@null.net> wrote:
> Alain Stalder wrote:
> > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
> > emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
> > with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
> > and through the earth.
>
> I think we're all bosons on this bus.
I guess this is also an issue more related to physics,
but here is my take anyway:
During a solar eclipse, the moon is between earth and
sun. I am assuming that in a quantum theory of gravity,
forces would be mediated by virtual gravitons (if that
disturbs you, simply replace the three astronomical
objects by electrically charged balls so that the
electrostatic force is mediated by virtual photons).
Now, it is an experimental fact (since Newton) that
the moon does not shield the gravitational force
between earth and sun in any way. In other words,
a graviton couples to one particle on the sun
and to another one on earth, but couples to nothing
in between, neither to matter in the sun, the moon
or earth. Compared to waves, i.e. to real particles,
that are normally absorbed to some degree in matter,
this behaviour is completely different. Of course
I am aware that the simple picture of a localized
particle "flying" from sun to earth does not
correspond to the reality of quantum mechanical
calculations, but the thing is still odd.
In the discoveries document I also suspect a connection
of these things to the problem of measurement in
quantum mechanics, but there things less concrete
(and also not labelled as such in the document).
Alain
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
My first post of last thursday has lead to some
misunderstandings. Hence some clarifications:
- the document is just a bunch of hypotheses, there is
no proof for anything, just input for experimentators
(i.e. it is a theoretical paper, not an experimental one)
- essentially all hypotheses are simple and specific
enough to be quantitatively verified or falsified
(i.e. it this is science)
- general remarks of the kind "previous experiments
have yielded no evidence for telepathy/precognition/etc."
do not apply; the hypotheses are more specific than what
has been tested experimentally, previous experiments
were not specific enough to decide whether the proposed
effects actually exist
- the document is densely written with lots of attention
to detail and hypotheses generally build up on previous
hypotheses; hence the document is only accessible if it
is read carefully and essentially from beginning to end
Have a nice summer!
Alain
--
Full document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
Web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
My first post of last thursday has lead to some
misunderstandings. Hence some clarifications:
- the document is just a bunch of hypotheses, there is
no proof for anything, just input for experimentators
(i.e. it is a theoretical paper, not an experimental one)
- essentially all hypotheses are simple and specific
enough to be quantitatively verified or falsified
(i.e. it this is science)
- general remarks of the kind "previous experiments
have yielded no evidence for telepathy/precognition/etc."
do not apply; the hypotheses are more specific than what
has been tested experimentally, previous experiments
were not specific enough to decide whether the proposed
effects actually exist
- the document is densely written with lots of attention
to detail and hypotheses generally build up on previous
hypotheses; hence the document is only accessible if it
is read carefully and essentially from beginning to end
Have a nice summer!
Alain
--
Full document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
Web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
Thank you very much for asking such specific questions.
I will try to answer them as specifically and honestly
as I can.
But first let me present myself: I am a 35 year old Swiss
physicist, I have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology (ETHZ) in Zurich, where I have
specialized in experimental physics. After that I have worked for
5 years at the IBM Zurich Research Lab in Ruschlikon for my PhD.
There I have built a combined scanning tunneling and atomic force
microscope (STM/AFM) that operates in ultra-high vacuum and is
cooled with liquid nitrogen, and I have also made experiments
with quantum effects in conductance when breaking nano-meter
sized metallic contacts. After that I have worked another 1.5
years at McGill University in Montreal at the same stuff, see:
http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/SPM/atomic
(my web site has a complete CV plus a list of my publications).
In article <af2718$32hi$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:
> In article <astalder-9DDEEB.06142722062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> >My first post of last thursday has lead to some
> >misunderstandings. Hence some clarifications:
> >
> >- the document is just a bunch of hypotheses, there is
> > no proof for anything, just input for experimentators
> > (i.e. it is a theoretical paper, not an experimental one)
>
>
> Yet it starts out by claiming the existence of a whole bunch of
> phenomena.
> Without a shred of evidence, to boot. You keep talking about the
> "observed effect"s, as if their existence is established. Then you
> babble
> about what could produce the detailed characteristics of this supposedly
> purely hypothetical effect. Make up your mind. Are these "effects"
> purely hypothetical, or are they observed? If the former, why did you
> choose these particularly hypotheses to explore? If the latter, where's
> the evidence?
The short answer is that I really have not made up my mind. Let
me give you my experiences in detail. My main experience is based
on an unfulfilled love. It appeared to me that I could feel
something (sometimes very strongly) if I looked into the
direction in which she lived. It also appeared to me that usually
late in the evening, I could feel her less strongly than before,
but if I would lay down or only put my head into a horizontal
position, I could feel her more strongly again (H2b). I cannot
reproduce these effects any more because this "relation" is
(luckily, I must say) a thing of the past. I have had some other
similar experiences with other women, but then only at short
range (several meters, not more). It appears to me that feelings
are a lot harder to remember than pictures. So, even though I do
remember that feelings were very strong and in the past my
experience indicated that I could feel her across large
distances, the mere memory of these feelings is now not
convincing to me.
Generally, I must say that, suppose somebody succeeded in making
a perfect robotic copy of your most significant other, that
looked and acted exactly the same, I would not be sure that you
would not be able to tell the difference. Or, if a couple has an
argument, then I am not so sure that it makes no difference
whether one of the two just goes to the next room or else drives
a few miles away. I get the impression that in the first case,
the tension in the appartment would remain stronger. (Of course,
one has to be very careful here. A person in the next room is not
totally acoustically separated, even sounds and vibrations that
are too weak to be consciously registered, may still be detected
unconsciously in the brain.)
I think, I chose to follow these hypotheses essentially because I
wanted to understand why she did not want to be with me. This was
also my motivation to take another look at astrology, namely
because when I knew her, she was interested in astrology. Already
in 1983, I took a look at astrology, but quickly concluded that
astrological texts were simply written in a way that for
anybody more than 50% of statements would apply.
What made me change my mind gradually was the following idea: If
there are unconscious long-range interactions between people,
this builds essentially a large brain. Then maybe that brain
influences the thinking of individual people. In other words,
astrology does not have to have anything to do with the stars in
the sky. Later on (actually only in the brief self-review of the
document, http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf) I noticed
that it is not necessary to have long-range interactions between
people. All you need is some unconscious way to exchange birth
dates or planetary positions between people. And that can be done
by known unconscious channels that always exist in human
interaction (intonation, gestures, etc.)
In that sense, it might be best to ignore section 1 of the
document (at least for the moment) and concentrate on section 2
which gives a quite down-to-earth and very simple model of
astrology. For example, suppose there is a man who had the sun in
Aries, Mars in Leo and Venus in Sagittarius at birth. Then
hypothesis H15f combined with H10 say that that man would
generally keep things secret towards his father and, if he is
himself a father, towards his children. Towards male friends of
roughly the same age, he would typically wage carefully what to
tell them, whereas towards his wife he would typically be quite
frank. Now, this is stuff that can readily be verified or
falsified by simply asking lots of people and noting the results.
And, if predictions fit the personal experiences of a scientist
with his/her surrounding, this might also provide motivation for
sceptical scientists to do such experiments.
Of course I am aware that such experiments would a priori not be
physical experiments, but psychological ones. Only if the
astrological structures were confirmed, one would then have to
look for the reasons why they exist. Only then potentially
physics would be affected, but not necessarily.
> >- essentially all hypotheses are simple and specific
> > enough to be quantitatively verified or falsified
> > (i.e. it this is science)
>
> Hypothesis "H1 Human brains are emotionally interconnected." In what
> sense is this well defined? What measurements would demonstrate this
> effect? In what manner are they interconnected? OBVIOUSLY, any test
> purporting to demonstrate the existence of such a phenomenon would have
> to
> be double blind, but all you offer is your assurance that you can feel
> such a thing. In short, you offer purely subjective, unverifiable
> evidence of an ill-defined hypothesis. If you think this is science, you
> might want to try another field.
The sentence "human brains are emotionally interconnected" is
well defined if you measure activity directly in the brain. As
far as I know, areas that are active when there are feelings can
be determined, at least to some degree. What one would have to
look for then is for correlations between the activities in the
brains of both probands, depending on the relative orientations
of their heads. NMR detectors, for example, keep getting smaller.
As far as I know, they might become portable within a few years.
> >- the document is densely written with lots of attention
> > to detail and hypotheses generally build up on previous
> > hypotheses; hence the document is only accessible if it
> > is read carefully and essentially from beginning to end
> >
>
>
> If it builds on itself in the manner you describe, then the obvious fact
> that the opening foundations range from shaky to nonexistent saves me the
> trouble of reading the whole rambling mess.
>
> "The main text is written in the style of a scientific publication." No,
> it's written in a bizarre parody of that style. You seem to think that
> using big words and numbering your hypotheses is all you need to do to
> capture the style.
>
> "Separate them as far as possible from any complex organic life forms."
> All organic life forms are complex, and they're everywhere on the earth's
> surface. So evidently you need to go to a sterile environmnent
> off-planet.
>
> "Instead of trying to prove something as a whole, physicists typically
> split complex questions to nature up into several simple questions that
> nature is then force to answer with yes or no, but nothing in between."
> Clearly, if you can make a statement like this, you've never done
> science.
> The discoveries happen what you ask nature a yes/no question, and it
> answers, "Splunge!"
>
> Bryan
I agree that the style in part of the document is to some degree
a parody of a scientific publication. Let me explain why. The
supposed astrological structure in peoples psyches, if it
existed, would have been made up essentially by normal people,
not scientists, i.e. by people who do often not think strictly
logically. Hence the astrological structure would only be
partially logical, but would have exceptions. This would be
similar to a human language which has rules (grammar) that allow
to make some predictions, but has exceptions. I have tried to
essentially follow the "grammar" of the proposed astrological
structures given by the stated hypotheses, but implicitly there
are a number of additional hypothese *between* the explicitly
stated ones. These would all have to be tested experimentally,
one-by-one.
It appears to me, that if the basic assumption were true that
there are astrological structures in human behaviour that come
from man-made believes, then the structure could not be fully
logical and hence its description would have exceptions too. I
admit though, that these exceptions should probably be worked out
more clearly than I did in the document.
There are several degrees of complexity in animals. Roughly their
complexity (in size of brain or size of DNA) has increased during
evolution. What I meant by by "complex life forms" was certainly
humans and other mammals. Whether smaller animals disturb much,
is difficult to tell. I am just suggesting to exclude as many
possible disturbances as possible. I think there are some rare
(and maybe only small) places on earth where practically no life
except maybe insects and simple plants exists.
I have quite a bit of experience with doing experiments, with how
difficult it is to get a definite answer. What I was pointing at,
is that typically during an experiment, you see something that
you do not know where it is coming from. Then you start to change
things in the setup. You typically change only one or a few
things and look what happens. What you do not do, is change lots
of things at once, because you would then not be able to get much
information out of the changed result. That is what I meant by
"divide and conquer". You make one change, get hopefully a
"something/nothing changed" out of this and then try the next
thing. That way you construct an answer to a more complex
question out of a bunch of answers to simple questions.
Please ask more specific questions if other things in the
document or in this posting are unclear and point out errors. I
will try to answer questions as precisely and openly as possible.
(I know that there are many people flooding this newsgroup with
weird stuff that only uses scientific terms but is quite far from
being science. Also scientists sometimes at some point in their
lives search something maybe "mystical" in astrology, etc.,
something that by definition cannot be investigated
scientifically. In contrast, I specifically tried (maybe not
fully successfully) to go into these fields as a scientist, first
primarily to understand a woman, but then returned without the
woman but with a few clues at what might be some new laws, at
least laws of psychology.)
Alain
In article <af1gd4$848$1@paris.btinternet.com>,
"Franz Heymann" <Franz.Heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> If you have something to say to this ng, say it here. Any URL which has
> any connotation to philosophy in its title will, from sad but regular
> experience, contain no physics.
>
> Franz Heymann
As requested, I will say things directly here.
Concretely I will do the following:
1. Quickly state a simple model of astrology, which is based on
the philosophy of Aristotle
2. Make concrete proposals for experiments to test the model
3. Discuss under which circumstances, if the model was confirmed,
it would require new physics
1. A simple model of astrology
Aristotle's theory of the four elements builds up on Plato's view
of a world made of four elements fire, earth, water and air. Now,
clearly the physical world is not literally made of these four
"elements". Aristotle, however, gives a more abstract definition
of the elements which, as I will propose, appears to be still
visible in today's psychology of people.
In Book II of Aristotle's text "On Generation and Corruption"
http://www.spaceship-earth.de/OrigLit/Aristotle/gener_corr_2_ii.html
he defines elements to be made of touchable qualities. In some
sense that is maybe even a viable way to see the world. The most
immediate contact with the world for each individual is to touch
something and it is also how babies initially mostly explore the
world. Anyway, Aristotle identifies different opposites that can
be distinguished by touching, like warm/cold, dry/moist,
rough/smooth, fine/coarse. Then he argues (probably not entirely
logically) that all opposites except the first two pairs are just
variants of the first two but nothing fundamentally different.
Since these two pairs of opposites can be composed in 4 ways, he
concludes that there are four elements and labels them as:
fire = warm + dry
earth = cold + dry
water = cold + moist
air = warm + moist
Based on this theory he argues that elements can be transformed
into each other, but more quickly if only one quality is changed
at a time. For example, fire can be transformed directly into
earth and air, but only indirectly into water.
Now to the specific astrological model. The zodiac divides the
ecliptic into 12 equally spaced "star signs". They come in the
following order (starting with the spring equinox):
Aries (fire)
Taurus (earth)
Geminini (air)
Cancer (water)
Leo (fire)
Virgo (earth)
Libra (air)
Scorpio (water)
Sagittarius (fire)
Capricorn (earth)
Aquarius (air)
Pisces (water)
My main hypothesis is that each group of 3 signs that are
assigned to an element (=E) can be described by the transition
from one element A via E to B. The first sign (in the order of
the zodiac) is composed mainly of A and only slightly of B, the
middle one of roughly equal amounts of A and B, the last one
mainly of B and only slightly of A.
Water, for example, can melt from ice ("earth"=A) via water (E)
and then evaporate to air (B). Hence, Cancer would essentially be
made of earth and only slightly of air, Scorpio of roughly equal
amounts of earth and air, etc.
Now, let me describe how this can lead to specific and
quantitatively verifiable statements. A lot of ancient greek
philosophy is based on immediate experience of nature (as
exemplified above by Aristotle's definition of an "element"). Two
blocks of ice do not mix their water, only if they both melt, the
water mixes. If you take a superficial and direct view at the
world, this is similar to what happens to the water of a river,
as follows. Ice is found mainly in the mountains (at least that
was so in ancient Greece), where rivers originate. Small rivers
from different sources mix together into bigger rivers (and later
they flow all together into the sea from where some water then
eventually evaporates again).
Now to the symbolic content of this: Psychologically, people can
be more or less ready to exchange private information with other
people. Some people limit their exchanges to only a few good
friends, others are a lot more open. Consequently, one almost
logical consequence of the above hypothesis would be that people
who were born when the sun was in Cancer, would tend to keep
their private lifes to themselves, to inform maybe only a few
very good friends and family (corresponding to the small amount
of air) about the things that really matter to them. Protection
would be important to them, having their own house to protect
them might be important, etc.
The United States of America, for example, have the sun in Cancer
(4th of July, 1776). Protection of the country is a very
important issue in the USA. There are several large government
institutions that have the task to protect America. People who
live in the USA do generally exchange very little information
with people living outside of the USA. US television deals mostly
with internal affairs.
The discoveries document at my web site is more densely written
than this text and thus indicates a lot more associations of the
kind above that are made with the four elements. However, I hope
that this text has explained the way of thinking sufficiently so
that somebody interested to take a closer look at the discoveries
document would be able to follow most associations.
In my personal experience, the model fits a lot more things that
one could possibly expect from such a simple model. I am an
experimental physicist, so I have some experience of when an
effect is real. There are so many attempts that have tried to
prove some "paranormal" phenomena based on results that maybe
deviated only by two standard deviations or so from what would be
expected on average. In my personal experience, the astrological
model fits significantly better than that. But, of course, a
quantitative scientific proof is still required, also to convince
*me* fully.
2. Concrete proposals for testing the model
Concentrating only on the sun sign (i.e. the sign that the sun
was in when one was born) will probably not be sufficient to
prove the correctness of the model, since there are a few more
astrological factors that influence human behaviour.
This is proposed to be the most important one:
Different astrological planets* influence how one is towards
different kinds of people. The sun how one is towards the father
or as a father, the moon how one is towards the mother or as a
mother, Mercury how one is towards syblings, Mars and Venus how
one is towards men resp. women of roughly the same age group
(that are not syblings), the latter explicitly includes male and
female lovers.
* Astrological planets are the objects that move relative to the
fixed stars seen from the earth, i.e. not only the astronomical
planets (except earth) but also sun and moon.
So I propose to take a large sample of families (say, at least
tens of thousands) and to ask each member individually about how
they percieve how the other members behave relative to them and
also how they themselves behave relative to them.
I guess that that would probably be sufficient to prove the
essential correctness of the model.
But in case it is not, here are some proposed refinements:
a) The ascendent is believed to be the superficial appearance of
somebody, people who do not know each other well often rather
perceive the ascendent. However in families that should
probably mostly not apply much.
b) In more extreme emotional circumstances first sun and then
moon (the conscious resp. unconscious) self are believed to
be perceived more clearly.
c) The time the questionaries were filled out should be noted.
The present position of the astrological planets is
believed to influence human behaviour too (e.g. when the
moon is currently in Cancer, a mother tends to be more like
Cancer towards her children than ususal). People may base
their answers to some degree on recent memories which might
skew the results.
If you want to get an impression of whether there is anything to
the proposed model, you might try to do this experiment within
your own family. Go to http://www.astro.com to calculate birth
charts (links "Free Charts", then "Chart drawing"). Please be
aware that some relations between family members are sometimes
not so harmonic, there may also be suppressed conflicts present.
Applying the model might trigger such things to come to the
surface. Please be careful.
3. Possible implications on physics
Suppose in the following that the model presented above has
essentially been confirmed in a quantitative way such that the
large majority of scientists has been convinced.
Clearly, the actual planets and stars in the sky could not be
directly responsible for the correctness of the model, as
follows. Due to the precession of the earth's axis (with a period
of about 26000 years) somebody who was born at the beginning of
spring is considered Aries by astrology, but astronomically had
the sun within the stars of the astronomical constellation of
Pisces. Furthermore, astronomical constellations are far from
being precisely 1/12 of the zodiac big. On top of that different
cultures (e.g. China) have completely different ways to combine
stars into constellations and also have different astrological
systems.
This would suggest strongly that the correctness of the model had
its immediate source in human culture, in people's minds, but not
in nature. (Consequently, the above model would only apply to
people that live in a culture that descends from ancient Greece,
i.e. Europe and its former colonies, a large part of the former
Soviet Union and the arabic world).
Hence there would have to be some way by which people
unconsciously exchange information about their birth dates (or
directly about planetary positions). Individual brains would then
unconsciously influence individual behaviour towards other
people, following some program that would correspond to the
astrological model.
As far as I can see, the confirmation of the model alone would
not necessarily require any new physics (information can be
hidden in intonation or gestures etc.). It cannot be excluded
that the search for the mechanism by which the astrological
information is exchanged would lead to the requirement of new
physics, but at the moment there is no immediate indication for
that.
Of course, some people might be interested to take more chances
already now, before the model is eventually confirmed. In that
sense maybe the more far fetched hypotheses I make about
long-range permanent interactions between people might provide
some inspiration for future theories. But, of course, it is a
matter of taste how far ahead one likes think. And the farther
ahead one thinks, the smaller typically the chances are to be
right.
Alain
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <astalder-894701.09270820062002@news.bluewin.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
[snip]
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
[snip]
Any feedback to the document ?
I suspect that the way the original post was formulated
could have made it difficult to recognize the direct
relation to psychological astrology - so let me rephrase
the essential message:
The document linked above presents a simple model of astrology
which is based on the philosophy of Aristotle and yet reproduces
many predictions of psychological astrology, but in a more
structured way that lends itself better for quantitative
verification. One crucial hypothesis is that each group of three
signs assigned to an element can be described by the transition
between three elements. For fire, for example, the main picture
is wood (earth) burning (fire) to smoke (air). Aries is proposed
to consist mainly of earth, whereas Leo would be composed of
about equal amounts of earth and air and Sagittarius mainly of
air. The wound that is found in the mythology that psychological
astrology assigns to Leo and Sagittarius would then correspond to
the burning of the wood that transforms the human mortal body
(earth) by the imaginary power of fire into knowledge (air) that
can be transferred to the next generation and thus becomes
immortal. Consequently, several other properties that are
commonly associated with these three fire signs emerge: The more
immortal one is, the more time one has to think instead of
acting, the more one can afford to be open towards others,
and more predictions (see document).
In case you prefer to contact me privately instead of posting
a reply, my PGP public key can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feedback/200206/index.html
Alain Stalder
This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):
Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.
Background
This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.
I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.
Discoveries
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
About me
I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):
Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.
Background
This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.
I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.
Discoveries
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
About me
I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):
Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.
Background
This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.
I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.
Discoveries
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
About me
I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):
Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.
Background
This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.
I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.
Discoveries
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
About me
I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
I have added the following statements to my web site to set
things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
on my web site):
Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
nature.
Background
This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
possibly even be incompatible with current science.
I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
provide some background information or reviews that link the
contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
its source is credited.
Discoveries
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
About me
I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <3D4A9951.4302CE87@hate.spam.net>,
Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote:
> Alain Stalder wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
> > superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
> > like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
> > page.
> [snip]
>
> Crap is crap. Gilt-edging makes it gilded crap.
>
> > Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
> > different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts,
>
> In other words, crap.
>
> > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > interconnected.
> [snip]
>
> Crap. Was there a disturbance in the Force when the Nazi's
> exterminated 11 million human brains in their concentration camps?
> Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Napolean's ill-fated march into
> Russia? The Cambodian Khmer Rouge doing a little local socialist
> purification?
>
> Star Trek "science" is pathetic. Star Wars religion is no better and
> no more self-consistent.
Maybe this little joke helps...
I am talking a walk at night when I see Al who is standing close
to a lamp post and is looking down at the ground, as if he is
looking for something.
- Hey Al, what are you looking for ?
- I lost my watch.
- Where did you loose it ?
- Well, back there, in that dark alley.
- But, why aren't you looking for it there ?
- There is more light here.
In my opinion this says three things:
a) In the light you can find nothing new.
b) In the dark the chances are too small to find something new,
and you might even get lost.
c) Hence you have into the twilight, grab something there and
then bring it back into the light to examine it carefully.
Let me say it once more, and quite clearly: Only what is
experimentally verifiable in an exact, quantitative way, will
make it into science. Admissible theories are everything that:
a) does not contradict previous experiments
b) is specific enough to be experimentally verified/falsified
Note that a new theory may supersede a previous theory by making
different predictions for a range which previous experiments did
not cover.
Regards,
Alain Stalder
In article <aieict$1nqg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
bwreed@u.washington.edu (Bryan Reed) wrote:
> I take it, then, that you still haven't done that double-blind test.
>
> Bryan
It is common in most parts of physics that the people who make
new theories are not the same who test them experimentally. As
far as I know, in most universities, people already decide when
studying physics whether to become an experimental or a
theoretical physicist. To put it quite bluntly, nobody ever asked
Einstein to verify General Relativity, even if it was quite far
fetched at that time and very difficult to verify since
gravitation is such a weak force.
So, the stage is open for anybody interested in making a few new
experiments. Of course there is some risk, nobody ever knows for
sure what will happen until nature is asked directly, but there
is opportunity. Everybody is the smith of his or her own luck...
Alain Stalder
In article <aifo01$otu$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
"Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:
> Hi Alain,
>
> Recently one of the brain-dead sci.physics group asked me
> if I knew who you were but did not say why. I knew I saw
> your name before. You shold likely be mentioning this over
> on alt.tarot and so forth. I have not seen anyone except one
> person talk about astrology over here. I know nothing about
> it. Galileo and Newton were also pseudo-scientists before
> they became famous. Until something is widely accepted
> everyone is quick to trash anything new. Quantum mechanics
> is the current target for abuse - but if it was not that it would
> be something else. That is all there is to explain things at
> the micoscopic level and if something is not fully understood
> it is only natural to point out something in science that
> is not fully understood that might explain it. I think the truth
> is no one will fund research into these new areas and when
> an independent (like a clerk at a Patent Office) comes along
> with an idea they trash it as 'pseudo'. Likewise there aren't
> many other people qualified to evaluate a lot of ideas and
> the ones that are qualified have their own interests/agenda.
> It appears today it is not good enough to simply have a good
> idea - even a physicst has to PROMOTE it. Like with a book.
>
>
> Mike Dubbeld
Hi Mike,
Thank you very much for your post; here are some thoughts and
references related to the issues risen:
Many early physicists like e.g. Kepler did some astrology,
although it may be argued that they did it also for political
reasons to some degree. Kepler published at least one book about
astrology and introduced quite a few new ideas into the field.
In 1952, the famous Swiss psychologist C.G. Jung published an
article with the title "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting
Principle" [in The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche,
Princeton 1969], in collaboration with Wolfgang Pauli, the
physicist who got the Nobel Prize for proposing the the exclusion
principle for Fermions and who also proposed the Neutrino.
Although I have only very recently read that article, it already
brings quantum mechanics, depth psychology with its archetypal
pictures, telepathy, precognition and astrology together, paired
with the strange things that happen when one tries to find direct
proof for such things.
The "acausal connecting principle" that appears to be not
completely bound by time and space, ressembles very much quantum
mechanical correlations, which became most prominent with the
Gedankenexperiment of Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen (EPR) in
conjunction with the violation of the Bell Equations that exclude
practically all local deterministic theories (but not non-local
ones). Something that appears to happen often in experiments, is
that initially an effect seems to be present, but as soon as
numbers go towards becoming really statistically convincing, the
effect disappears again. As a meta-experiment, this might be
significant, although one has to be very careful here, because
people might report only experiments in which that happened and
discard others. If you speak some german, the document "Die 1 und
die 2" (The 1 and the 2) by Werner Held might be interesting to
read. It is about the same topics, gives a good overview about
these and more recent works in that area, and it is also
philosophically quite deep, dealing with dualities in principle,
like in self/world, conscious/unconscious, etc:
http://people.freenet.de/soleil7/Texte.htm
I have noticed too that qualified people have their own agendas,
but I also think it is more true for older, already established
people, not so much for young people who are more eager and open
to try something new. On the other hand, I am also providing a
platform for established people to put the stuff they did into a
perspective that has the chance to be scientifically accepted.
There are quite a few astrologers with university degrees in
psychology etc. with deep and broad knowledge of psychology,
history and philosophy who recognize astrological connections to
forces on the human psyche. At the moment astrology is more a
craft than a science, in the way that there are experts who can
apply it, but are not well able to express or explain it in a way
that is understandable to others, nor do they themselves fully
understand what they know. A smith does not have to be a
physicist or a chemist in order to make, say, a sword. He can
teach his craft to others, but not explain analytically what is
happening. Chemistry was a craft for a long time in history.
The model of astrology I present can easily be applied by anybody
to everyday experience. In that sense it ressmbles ancient greek
philosophy that was both quite abstract, but also a lot more
directly connected to everyday experience that most of current
physics. There is not much previous knowledge required to
understand the model I present, just some abiltity to think both
logically and associatively and the will to try something out for
some time with an open but still critical mind. Here are some of
my favorite books about astrology:
Liz Greene, Astrology for Lovers. (she has a PhD in psychology;
don't let the title fool you, this is quite easy to read but is
also quite up to the point psychologically; many statements she
makes can be related to the model I propose, using the "tricks"
that I present and apply in my document; this model gives you
also a tool to distinguish to some degree which things that she
says correlate with the model and are hence maybe more likely
true, whereas the others might be rather of personal nature or,
else, maybe deeper insights)
Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate (as the title suggests, this
one goes deep)
Robert Hand, Essays on Astrology (he has studied history, the
notion of astrology as a craft comes from his essay "On Creating
a Science of Astrology" in this book)
Robert Hand, Horoscope Symbols.
A craftsman typcially has his/her own theories about what things
work and also probably made some false assumptions about how
things behave, simply because his/her experience is not formally
verified in the sense of science. And these convictions can
sometimes also be quite strong. It appears to me that many
astrologers go to astrology exactly to find something that is not
scientifically explainable and are thus also - for the opposite
reason than sceptics - likely to (at least unconsciously) oppose
scientific confirmation of astrology.
And thanks for your suggestions.
Alain Stalder
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-A0C186.11091702082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
> > starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
> >
> > I have added the following statements to my web site to set
> > things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
> > newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
> > give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
> > interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
> > on my web site):
> >
> >
> > Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
> >
> > This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
> > nature.
> >
> > Background
> >
> > This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
> > superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
> > like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
> > page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
> > possibly even be incompatible with current science.
> >
> > I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
> > unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
> > the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
> > for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
> > physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
> > scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
> > even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
> > as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
> > tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
> > have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
> > purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
> > specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
> > an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
> > nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
> > prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
> >
> > Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
> > different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
> > hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
> > I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
> > provide some background information or reviews that link the
> > contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
> > respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
> > maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
> > would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
> > have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
> > maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
> > relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
> > its source is credited.
> >
> > Discoveries
> >
> > Abstract
> >
> > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> > symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> > earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> > Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> > magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> > explanation.
> >
> > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
> > made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
> > beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
> > influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
> >
> > The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> > composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> > ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
> > Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
> > were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
> > classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> > themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
> > elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
> > transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
> > simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
> >
> > Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
> > are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
> >
> > About me
> >
> > I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
> > there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
> > Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
> > for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
> > my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
> > University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
> > IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
> > Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
> > of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
> > here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net
>
>
In article <uko4cn67h161fd@corp.supernews.com>,
"Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "David Lindauer" <camille@bluegrass.net> wrote in message
> news:3D4BE86D.E5B4C4BF@bluegrass.net...
> >
> >
> > Immortalist wrote:
> >
> > > "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:astalder-A0C186.11091702082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > > > This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
> > > > starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
> > > > Discoveries
> > > >
> > > > Abstract
> > > >
> > > > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > > > interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> > > > symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> > > > earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> > > > Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> > > > magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> > > > explanation.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If brains are emotionally interconnected with directional spin, and the
> > > physical nature of the effect is unkown, what prompts the asertion of
the
> > > idea?
> > >
> >
> > you could ask that same question about ANY scientific theory, because at
some
> > point prior to the postulation of the theory, nothing was known. So this
may
> > be a more general question than you realize!
> >
> > David
>
> Good point. So if we start with a mild and sensitive doubt about all
> theories and uncertain beliefs we have about anything, and we accept this
> condition uncertainty we are trapped in, we can move onto the combination of
> the things we can only partially know and see what stands out as seeming to
> most reasonable to believe in. So if we cannot discount any theory but only
> find therories that are more reasonable to believe in when combined with all
> the theories we can think of, what context would help us find out what value
> of a theory about emotionally connected selves, by fields and forces, has in
> relation to other evidences we can find. How does this idea account for
> reasonable beliefs about brains and nerve cells? Does it discount them out
> of hand or does if allow room for finding in those areas?
Since the effect is in my experience correlated with the
orientation of the head, the sensor (if that is the right word)
is almost certainly in the brain. Experiment will show, but
personally I would search in the area of nerve cells, probably
looking for quantum effects, and hence search rather at small
lenght scales. So yes, it does allow room for finding in the
areas of brains and nerve cells.
Alain Stalder
> >
> > >
> > > > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > > > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
> > > > made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
> > > > beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
> > > > influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
> > > >
> > > > The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> > > > composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> > > > ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
> > > > Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
> > > > were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
> > > > classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> > > > themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
> > > > elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
> > > > transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
> > > > simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
> > > > are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
> > > >
> > > > About me
> > > >
> > > > I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
> > > > there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
> > > > Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
> > > > for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
> > > > my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
> > > > University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
> > > > IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
> > > > Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
> > > > of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
> > > > here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
> > > >
> > > > http://www.exactphilosophy.net
> >
>
>
In article <ail7vl$fl5$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
"Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-6AC20F.10063104082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > In article <aifo01$otu$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
> > "Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Alain,
> > >
> > > Recently one of the brain-dead sci.physics group asked me
> > > if I knew who you were but did not say why. I knew I saw
> > > your name before. You shold likely be mentioning this over
> > > on alt.tarot and so forth. I have not seen anyone except one
> > > person talk about astrology over here. I know nothing about
> > > it. Galileo and Newton were also pseudo-scientists before
> > > they became famous. Until something is widely accepted
> > > everyone is quick to trash anything new. Quantum mechanics
> > > is the current target for abuse - but if it was not that it would
> > > be something else. That is all there is to explain things at
> > > the micoscopic level and if something is not fully understood
> > > it is only natural to point out something in science that
> > > is not fully understood that might explain it. I think the truth
> > > is no one will fund research into these new areas and when
> > > an independent (like a clerk at a Patent Office) comes along
> > > with an idea they trash it as 'pseudo'. Likewise there aren't
> > > many other people qualified to evaluate a lot of ideas and
> > > the ones that are qualified have their own interests/agenda.
> > > It appears today it is not good enough to simply have a good
> > > idea - even a physicst has to PROMOTE it. Like with a book.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Dubbeld
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > Thank you very much for your post; here are some thoughts and
> > references related to the issues risen:
> >
> > Many early physicists like e.g. Kepler did some astrology,
> > although it may be argued that they did it also for political
> > reasons to some degree. Kepler published at least one book about
> > astrology and introduced quite a few new ideas into the field.
> >
> > In 1952, the famous Swiss psychologist C.G. Jung published an
> > article with the title "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting
> > Principle" [in The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche,
> > Princeton 1969], in collaboration with Wolfgang Pauli, the
> > physicist who got the Nobel Prize for proposing the the exclusion
> > principle for Fermions and who also proposed the Neutrino.
> > Although I have only very recently read that article, it already
> > brings quantum mechanics, depth psychology with its archetypal
> > pictures, telepathy, precognition and astrology together, paired
> > with the strange things that happen when one tries to find direct
> > proof for such things.
>
> I know them both well. Fermions and Bosons now along with
> 'interactions' instead of matter and energy. Since I do yoga
> Jung is no stranger to me.
>
> >
> > The "acausal connecting principle" that appears to be not
> > completely bound by time and space, ressembles very much quantum
> > mechanical correlations, which became most prominent with the
> > Gedankenexperiment of Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen (EPR) in
> > conjunction with the violation of the Bell Equations that exclude
> > practically all local deterministic theories (but not non-local
> > ones). Something that appears to happen often in experiments, is
> > that initially an effect seems to be present, but as soon as
> > numbers go towards becoming really statistically convincing, the
> > effect disappears again. As a meta-experiment, this might be
> > significant, although one has to be very careful here, because
> > people might report only experiments in which that happened and
> > discard others. If you speak some german, the document "Die 1 und
> > die 2" (The 1 and the 2) by Werner Held might be interesting to
> > read. It is about the same topics, gives a good overview about
> > these and more recent works in that area, and it is also
> > philosophically quite deep, dealing with dualities in principle,
> > like in self/world, conscious/unconscious, etc:
> >
> > http://people.freenet.de/soleil7/Texte.htm
> >
> > I have noticed too that qualified people have their own agendas,
> > but I also think it is more true for older, already established
> > people, not so much for young people who are more eager and open
> > to try something new. On the other hand, I am also providing a
> > platform for established people to put the stuff they did into a
> > perspective that has the chance to be scientifically accepted.
> >
> > There are quite a few astrologers with university degrees in
> > psychology etc. with deep and broad knowledge of psychology,
> > history and philosophy who recognize astrological connections to
> > forces on the human psyche. At the moment astrology is more a
> > craft than a science, in the way that there are experts who can
> > apply it, but are not well able to express or explain it in a way
> > that is understandable to others, nor do they themselves fully
> > understand what they know. A smith does not have to be a
> > physicist or a chemist in order to make, say, a sword. He can
> > teach his craft to others, but not explain analytically what is
> > happening. Chemistry was a craft for a long time in history.
>
> This analogy is the view of Late Post Modern non-Classical
> Foundationalism. A Scientist need not as in Lockes day know
> by experiment all preceeding science to proceed in his area of
> science. Nor a Christian believe/be a scholar of all aspects of
> Christianity to believe in it. Nor a person saying 'This is a
> chair.' - without knowing how the ey works and light reflects
> off objects/electromagnetic waves/how the brain gives it cortical
> response to the vision center etc. No all of this not known - it is
> still reasonable for someone to simply say 'This is a chair.' based
> on his previous knowledge of chairs and assume something to
> be a chair until proven otherwise. Late-Post-Modern-non-Classical
> Foundationalism. It is a pyramid based structure. If
> some of the blocks do not survive the whole thing does not fall.
> This as opposed to Classical Foundationalism - Locke and gang
> where every piece of knowledge rests on the same foundation and
> if anything is wrong with the foundatation the entire building
> could collapse. Also like the Plotinus 'Divine Mind' which is
> all of Plato's Forms. One theorem in Geometry can not be wrong
> because the whole set of Geometric Theorems are interconnected
> and would fall apart is another example of Modern Classical
> Foundationalism.
>
> >
> > The model of astrology I present can easily be applied by anybody
> > to everyday experience. In that sense it ressmbles ancient greek
> > philosophy that was both quite abstract, but also a lot more
> > directly connected to everyday experience that most of current
> > physics. There is not much previous knowledge required to
> > understand the model I present, just some abiltity to think both
> > logically and associatively and the will to try something out for
> > some time with an open but still critical mind. Here are some of
> > my favorite books about astrology:
> >
> > Liz Greene, Astrology for Lovers. (she has a PhD in psychology;
> > don't let the title fool you, this is quite easy to read but is
> > also quite up to the point psychologically; many statements she
> > makes can be related to the model I propose, using the "tricks"
> > that I present and apply in my document; this model gives you
> > also a tool to distinguish to some degree which things that she
> > says correlate with the model and are hence maybe more likely
> > true, whereas the others might be rather of personal nature or,
> > else, maybe deeper insights)
> >
> > Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate (as the title suggests, this
> > one goes deep)
> >
> OK got them.
>
> > Robert Hand, Essays on Astrology (he has studied history, the
> > notion of astrology as a craft comes from his essay "On Creating
> > a Science of Astrology" in this book)
> >
> > Robert Hand, Horoscope Symbols.
> >
> > A craftsman typcially has his/her own theories about what things
> > work and also probably made some false assumptions about how
> > things behave, simply because his/her experience is not formally
> > verified in the sense of science. And these convictions can
> > sometimes also be quite strong. It appears to me that many
> > astrologers go to astrology exactly to find something that is not
> > scientifically explainable
>
> Maybe but I think it is more likely they just don't care what
> science thinks. In other words I know so many psychics and
> healers and so forth that by hearing them talk most do not seem
> to know where science begins and ends anyway - as in they
> are not particularly interested (curiously enough) and in fact
> get nervous when the subject of science comes up. I saw this
> sharp contrast at a lecture on Shamanism where a Biochemist
> attended because he was promoting a book on Quantum
> Mechanics as related to biology and I was told that he had to
> keep his book under cover because his collegues would likely
> cause him problems if they found out he was publishing this
> material. He thought (I guess) of himself as a sort of rebel in
> this respect - but compared to all those other people talking
> about amulets and charms and so fort he was on very solid
> scientific ground. I consider it an asset not having a closed
> mind on these things but sci.physics have some real basket
> cases over there.... :) Look at G. Hammond how much flack
> he got. I think it is better to leave them in the dark and just
> extract the answers you need without telling them the purpose
> for trying to gain information on them.
>
> good luck,
> Mike Dubbeld
Here is what Liz Greene said about a year ago; it appears to be
somewhere in between, but closer to science. The full interview
is at: http://www.astro.com/info/plutint3_e.htm?lang=e
Nick Campion:
[...] I'm wondering whether you still agree with words that you
wrote 25 years ago. You said that "astrology is ... a map of the
system of laws by which the energies of life operate - an
astrology vindicated by statistical research and scientific
investigation."[16] Does that represent your current thinking? I
am interested in that statement because it has been claimed that
there has been a change in how astrologers view scientific
research and statistics as a way of validating astrology, and
that negative statistical results have encouraged an
anti-scientific stance amongst astrologers. So, has your own view
changed since 1977?
Liz Greene: I think that research is very valuable in astrology,
in the sense that it can highlight patterns. Sometimes research
reveals patterns that we don't expect, and our assumptions are
challenged. So, yes, it is very valuable for us to do statistical
research. However, I don't think it is valid from the point of
view of trying to prove that astrology works, because if you have
the kind of mentality that is dead-set against astrology, you
will try to blow holes in the statistics anyway. And usually you
can take any set of statistics and destroy it. Astrologers can
pursue statistical research for their own purposes, but there is
no point in trying to convince skeptics. If I do 300 charts
during the course of a year for people born with the Sun opposite
Saturn, and 80% of them either had fathers who left them when
they were young, or fathers who died early, or fathers who
abandoned them before they were born, or fathers who were cold
and distant, that's statistical research. I can then say: "Well,
80% of the 300 Sun-Saturn charts that I have done have this kind
of psychological pattern." It may then be useful for me to
explore further what that Sun-Saturn aspect means. But if I took
that research to somebody who defines statistical research in a
more "scientific" sense, they would say: "Three hundred people is
nothing. What you need is 3,000 and a neutral control group."
Whatever you do, they'll find a way to set other tests. I think
the research we do is very important for us. Whether it convinces
anybody outside, I don't really care, to be quite honest. I think
we need to do it for our own constant development.
Me again: It appears to me that the example she gives is not so
far from something which would convince most scientists; 80% of
800 people appears to be at least a clear indication that further
experiments could yield convincing evidence of her hypothesis of
a correlation between a Sun-Saturn opposition and a father that
is not present. It is maybe understandable that astrologers give
up after some years, but probably younger people see this a bit
differently. And if astrology was confirmed within the next few
years (which I judge not unlikely), that would of course
immediately rise the question why there are correlations between
birth date and character. That is the direction in which my
document goes: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
>
> and are thus also - for the opposite
> > reason than sceptics - likely to (at least unconsciously) oppose
> > scientific confirmation of astrology.
> >
> > And thanks for your suggestions.
> >
> > Alain Stalder
> >
> > > "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:astalder-A0C186.11091702082002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > > > This refers to my posts of June/July 2002 with subjects
> > > > starting with "Discovery Disclosure":
> > > >
> > > > I have added the following statements to my web site to set
> > > > things straight; this is also essentially my last post to this
> > > > newsgroup, feel free to pick up the subject and I am also ready
> > > > give information on a one-to-one basis to anybody who is
> > > > interested in the proposed new ideas (my PGP key can be found
> > > > on my web site):
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
> > > >
> > > > This web site is about a few (potential) new discoveries in
> > > > nature.
> > > >
> > > > Background
> > > >
> > > > This is not the typical pseudoscientific web site, even of it may
> > > > superficially appear to be so, probably because is contains words
> > > > like "quantum mechanics", "telepathy" and "astrology" on the same
> > > > page. It is also not a series of unverifiable claims that might
> > > > possibly even be incompatible with current science.
> > > >
> > > > I am a physicist who, as a physicist, has investigated some
> > > > unusual fields like psychology and one of its recent daughters,
> > > > the craft of psychological astrology, and found some indication
> > > > for what might be new laws in culture and possibly even in
> > > > physics. I have formulated these indications in the form of
> > > > scientific hypotheses. These hypotheses may be unusual, they may
> > > > even superficially appear to violate existing physical laws, but
> > > > as far as I can tell as a physicist, their content has not been
> > > > tested specifically enough to exclude them, i.e. the hypotheses
> > > > have essentially to be tested in new experiments. For that
> > > > purpose they have been carefully crafted to be both simple and
> > > > specific enough to be experimentally verifiable or falsifiable in
> > > > an exact, quantitative way. Being a physicist, I will go by what
> > > > nature answers, by nothing else, even if I might personally
> > > > prefer that some hypotheses might turn out to be true.
> > > >
> > > > Since the document contains state-of-the-art contents from
> > > > different scientific fields and not so scientific crafts, it is
> > > > hard for anybody reading it to verify this very claim. Therefore
> > > > I would be grateful if experts from different fields would
> > > > provide some background information or reviews that link the
> > > > contents of this site more explicitly to existing work in the
> > > > respective fields. Also, if you find the stuff here interesting,
> > > > maybe only because it is quite controversial, a link to my site
> > > > would be nice and would be reciproced by a link back from here. I
> > > > have no intentions to promote this stuff much, except by
> > > > maintaining this web site; so, if you think this stuff is
> > > > relevant to others, please feel free to promote it, as long as
> > > > its source is credited.
> > > >
> > > > Discoveries
> > > >
> > > > Abstract
> > > >
> > > > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > > > interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> > > > symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> > > > earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> > > > Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> > > > magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> > > > explanation.
> > > >
> > > > Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> > > > phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also
> > > > made plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological
> > > > beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today and continue to
> > > > influence our fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
> > > >
> > > > The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> > > > composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> > > > ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
> > > > Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner planets
> > > > were in at birth time, influence how one relates to different
> > > > classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> > > > themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical
> > > > elements, more specifically, from meanings associated with
> > > > transitions from one element to another. The discoveries are
> > > > simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems
> > > > are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
> > > >
> > > > About me
> > > >
> > > > I am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zürich. I was born
> > > > there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal
> > > > Instititute of Technology in Zürich (ETHZ). Then I have worked
> > > > for four years at the IBM Zürich Research Lab in Rüschlikon for
> > > > my PhD. After that I have spent one and a half years at McGill
> > > > University in Montreal, Canada, working on the same stuff as at
> > > > IBM. Currently, I am working 80% for iT_Security AG, a company in
> > > > Zürich that makes smart card based security software. During some
> > > > of the rest of my time, I have made the discoveries disclosed
> > > > here. (more formal curriculum vitae on my web site)
> > > >
> > > > http://www.exactphilosophy.net
> > >
> > >
>
>
test (hashes for a list of files).
Alain Stalder (astalder25@bluewin.ch)
--
File: "discoveries.pdf"
Size: 543019
MD5: 74cc12a8b0c0f7412f77ce06cfba8817
SHA: 3188fd502a8d42799753f076b7bb1c3147a768a3
SHA256: 57d262ac022aa31b5d47035459676f1dd927e3909ad848ad0dd058a4f206c2a8
SHA384: 2d1dcb1eab1e04dcc4ce0bb1122965069fddc15d5211bb5fe622ea24e7de69bf
f996e79bc67b60e2029fcbbd6b26198d
SHA512: 8a90e9efed6cd042ea5f5aee8fe3d114e2f434a02e70a8c462f4397f078766e3
75726950a95f207404d4dedbad173416fe3c99601fceb6b5b41f6aeebeb4b1d7
RIPEMD128: e64d40678ecd3b084a52da43633a4cbd
RIPEMD160: b030cbc3c2dee24f8ee580e918c947bffaf5f4f7
File: "review.pdf"
Size: 46963
MD5: cfd8de45d11bef6ec06ea4aa8f597aed
SHA: 7c50a0b08844862db0242f2f95bd11eb87d4b0c7
SHA256: 133127273480ee2b0f6f656490b73af9ca183e4b8c67dc5946b5d2c8df319f99
SHA384: 3b743aea2b282b7237eaf728b740b3bffd4b8e8c01ccc24a9dadd1a5c931eea1
4e888cc8c5c9a79243b336523bae0e3a
SHA512: 44b6e98308cf504fa17ba06fa8affe8cbaa51c554ab9a07a648abe32795fa38d
be70083bd8bc48b0a7c06e735d27d028a2f395bd63ecf24833a63ee8b57b6a82
RIPEMD128: fdf22f615bbb77388c296bdeac16bd74
RIPEMD160: 6be589ca3857bd189cbe38bb04bc7cafe4d27076
File: "logfile.pdf"
Size: 127055
MD5: 1481fd32a9df43f4041d6728b42d0b85
SHA: 1bd2b94fc3156ecabf16354a5d8e5cbed143a9dc
SHA256: 673828868419245761618ed0a4b6c0fb2274e7b711c29aed4c9f5094069cf17e
SHA384: 0312234ca6ca6d45293b0a4c52893e1d0cf1e56d79c982c458896c26529bbc5e
3c8b0ae80c63183110e8956d4ff75af9
SHA512: 1a8ddd19772bf985c45661f07591de4a777e2c0dbf6199ef93705766641f67bf
b4ea784a148ea9604cddf04b03b8c3e52a7ecae93a5dc3aa669ea062ac3eb904
RIPEMD128: 0287f55627f1557497cef648cba931f2
RIPEMD160: 29800a4650e2775b814ece19a914b4d02a946c4b
File: "jan1998.txt"
Size: 2792
MD5: 583646cdf33605d4cdcdd77ed9a78a2c
SHA: 9506a242d7d22ff7b0c3b74e3a5c93150767a09f
SHA256: a4a8bc41b64ac67965b9af32341d8a8a30833ceb935c1ce0a146d7b75912f57b
SHA384: ee624549b94acf17225b60b1c69ef5fc6868ac01acdb1319cd80184aba64080b
37f37ecbd56a19f36a53a6a597c7343f
SHA512: 9e114326df10aeb7ded5b7623847d85dc1f9950cff7889fee9e462e2a15b1217
887a9e0a8aa887c678648a3dfbd059b30b482892bec322b5b002b776b947a78f
RIPEMD128: 9337a16128984d3fe6af7ff436a165bf
RIPEMD160: 25494232e9e6aa19718e035ececd7a8a6de61d33
File: "jan2000.txt"
Size: 19571
MD5: 91303789c0ace6ae9f6b2fd013ca871d
SHA: e5b5b56dd5eb57dfc1996d85b468a9ec3d928789
SHA256: bc7eb0be5a2bd1d5f9c9390e2cca01529030390e3a2f10bfe4bf910b03ae66f7
SHA384: 484458c67cc26a706a3177166454c69c867053986c56850975ee9e10056a4031
577f903f0906ea235c598361e11943f2
SHA512: dcaf3070b4911a41ed07c5f522db4f4b5788f3cba5f0a9b32c3b329b5002af3f
2fecc7926df75d59d8a598de6f546fbdf85fb8543fd6237ece787f55505bb551
RIPEMD128: b47745ee9e521b38887f5cf62e4e1a07
RIPEMD160: ef16d3d85a52210b66d72ad84ced5a7b8409c220
File: "jan2000s.txt"
Size: 19751
MD5: 4e18f1e7da8f69f3807765069d6e6e62
SHA: 167e7eeff4a3c8bb9ae6f684b7325c364a6b66a9
SHA256: 5ad8558b3f5d9ee7849f5bdeb5bcb73cc79cef9506899ee50f2a907d319a1f20
SHA384: e2b83e68bc1f17e5ccfd70ac078e2d3fe410ba1af0d8bf1da5ee4e04c9e407c7
cf84f1be6b46332ccd4cf22e2725c50e
SHA512: bd18bd156b202400cb755800faf0dec5d991a964c0eb3b763a6d214083afda29
bb213eb2764b3779ca4c3e28c872d143015c04d6c7a2dd4d8b19d85d52298567
RIPEMD128: 71a6060bafffb39126fe22c725bec1d4
RIPEMD160: f13ab90e1990dd401659a67869d4a7aa4a5a782d
File: "mar2001.txt"
Size: 31867
MD5: c52af9527e3c645f87ec0d430ea366e2
SHA: b0f4be90f7bdd3c40cc4cb376700aaee790b32aa
SHA256: 52e591a89450832b245a8adedfe6874d5f2ba992ba162053dd2fa908cb2114e8
SHA384: 0db68e2734fa6dc5cc475e43c663808a313b96e6734b925ab36fdce9a9996c6a
c7e3f4c4e5016b86aa5f8ce77a15cbfe
SHA512: 50fea8e760d09e740c154f82183850a74251fac8fb5b08674377e12392af1554
b003d79c5a9725b9bd7c18caf8913e2d49198a65195f9c3761a80ab9af73ca2f
RIPEMD128: 6d8a367f25198528df89097c1618c357
RIPEMD160: 75eb5cb833bfbee6baaf9d4561a1fbdff83f7fd0
File: "mar2001s.txt"
Size: 32047
MD5: e83b2ce3ec033fa9724be4bab66d879f
SHA: 928076849e465dd3988ab37f836da53c770f7c8f
SHA256: 2c73cf514127397931fe990d9cd83648fe2d090964d1e649790d7f81036cc542
SHA384: a6433d0f4f5a601155f8275baa4e226418c1ac862a89b05a4a544ecd68c34064
9116ffe210629f2c23760a034701b7d3
SHA512: 6cb04ae9ec10a34697619e87f5e0ad0a571c4077838da6cc35578dc555098c72
af0f0971c57f604b82c5edf99e15803e9b63dac95f1c8b1653b7c794195ce2b5
RIPEMD128: ae5482750a78fc8faf3789ca8f9fee92
RIPEMD160: 4d6cf06e73074309ce8e68114b77de5b60c6d0a3
File: "may2001.txt"
Size: 53183
MD5: 41855aa8a5848d7292264d6589e5251a
SHA: 67b737effb1ebed2eed33f34eb80aa2d7c645c49
SHA256: 3ab4b96a2ce350986cc0c0d0cffb967420a3c94a110572a6cb42f878c61b2851
SHA384: 8794ff9c70d293ebaf1ff08bffef73a27619f0d00787caa70590a8e300837a77
9876c4dede71804c93f9571a35faf966
SHA512: c0e21c8c72992eea6b237c299cce163b05534c831bec1b4bba51a27d0ef52a7d
46e29ae36222519994b5917fa2c4b7b60b3e1c37b8825c769c67cbd6c8b285c2
RIPEMD128: 6641c447eca9a4f181de50e3fc82a670
RIPEMD160: 95b34c655fd72e45b753d280d53e66059e6869f8
File: "may2001s.txt"
Size: 53361
MD5: d114b72e5b3e0f3404b3dff2d6a5490b
SHA: 7251f4f5d16ad44ca537c2b468588982230e6c02
SHA256: dd826eb0879fb4c01383d416cbbd3c02f1c6426e951abd57797545ecdd5b68d9
SHA384: c6370e3fad24ca5a9aab457baa78b07bd66045fbd7bfc14f1e9deb4f78184129
fbe07b650eda719536c4f9c3703a9281
SHA512: fb87b7dec476d2f0e15a0b88b9dba975e88d5756519513706995345973e3088b
2865490f31c314ac1c20d54d13b2ebe8ca2a40e4fc1628701575e0db142cc42c
RIPEMD128: dd6a2f8c1cd55bc80c6a1b37b883bbc6
RIPEMD160: 7537100de7b5a729aea0c5ccccbbaab7ad590fb9
File: "jan2000.txt 2000-01-15"
Size: 942
MD5: 289c1831eb16ef0910184605b296fa7d
SHA: a89bb6e98d5b6091d442d29b9511f53ab754ef28
SHA256: a211bac8a8625b0480ad95426aadc36b094e5a84874ec01da2e45d56cc21dc01
SHA384: ece3a372526566cb3de91a4b69ac5bfe9203815e7f3bd3afeeab0ba53961a990
3025eb3e49db4e62b999d91a37300f55
SHA512: 9506121b8f4c352b2d9bbfb2d3ec4e7245a391b883bbcaaba023323db3b15af0
b3ba86735ea524f08e245827979906312ad56aa56f02114f94823109165cfed5
RIPEMD128: 49a7688b41741ade642f0556645552a5
RIPEMD160: d4c745f57d971320bec16064201a29867145b9c6
File: "jan2000s.txt 2000-07-03 PKCS7"
Size: 653
MD5: bd27dd1adbb036a70c9825e502bdd56b
SHA: 96853cc59b47dcf9e036c3d5bf2dd1cd5b1079ef
SHA256: e9fc57923cb88789d40015b10567a661f6d16b8aeb21ecd695c672bfa06ab545
SHA384: dd935965c13a52278a612e2567a12974672b9459b173c27a486b1f4cab54ded7
d426bf53c1982cf70304773c3c507a02
SHA512: 6aa364478621bf4afe8e689c360193555989e1c3179463a026bb6800e9b1738c
54f27c9bfdacc81407d6c19d582d684e33552a82b8b2e8310de82a85cb147d52
RIPEMD128: de31e4a56c209b3d3df6c4b62b9901b4
RIPEMD160: 252fb7d512458a477b41751f25cd36b8371e26ae
File: "mar2001s.txt 2001-03-29 PKCS7"
Size: 654
MD5: 2fb86a2409a47f91e960b9f122df609a
SHA: c8b48dceac493953cf28b76005cbe387a7197d5e
SHA256: 6738849135cabb18c19f33d426551a003f558a8255ff62edab0b390b57348de6
SHA384: 3590ceafd29dd5f92df63628b59fe0ca2aad43f2050516d4385e289c5257da0d
5d96fbdaeff436f8cf0570b4322c49fc
SHA512: c86b730903addb55b669cdab8037c15978b5f4edd8874be60741726636b33341
efa66cf36ced0d007463449bbf2fa2a2ae7a13406030fa7b0cc8ad37c9c9a76b
RIPEMD128: f2b1984e013cfa803df48f24e62212d9
RIPEMD160: 8c5c0467d7b43e07832804b76eb1564c7c61b2c1
File: "may2001s.txt 2001-05-03 PKCS7"
Size: 654
MD5: 89aafb06d0a78a5268f9453b149114fd
SHA: 7b5cbca36df4dba60f1f1912c8ea080c8fa0c0b4
SHA256: b099cd18671d791a64d0c40f357471432bdda993884069ec5bb3b4cd65c2a9a0
SHA384: 544814cbc5daaad2c462365448a2a061fb1c5c49ebbd7380152fc28befa3a3a2
22657de2e1602b1d9aaafbfc9ebd5439
SHA512: fb76fe928b37e57d8b9e52edca66b36fe713d787d2f1b32334796c5a8ea8718c
9af46b21c724f0663e7e927d1c21a3ed9a2c3c444fdf8892e36227067fffbd52
RIPEMD128: b5a9b8776be2809ab59c94e93314d9c8
RIPEMD160: e0d12aef101b02e45554a50d104c1968c76f6baa
File: "discoveries.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: 65e6be7453c752d26ea0afea9fd496e1
SHA: 78243419dc119bcd7ae252bb924efa8c87651ff1
SHA256: 0fcdc38ef490ef1e022eaaae78cbd2105462d8fe8f73030964473efc69963985
SHA384: 8d7bf6ee7eaa85273a064c98b369e798523b028a9f384e78067d6c5e8d6517b8
82feda4222174deace2cc6bb36e6ca27
SHA512: 64ee78fae06dd70b000b14c4c3a6c7dd96efd1648e0bdd6d383055372db2cfcb
f7d6a5bb6f1c446ec1f7d40d752d53b2a652dcef6561b286035d769b80ef12d9
RIPEMD128: 210bd0f1b8cf225bac650650e5ebbbed
RIPEMD160: a773fa1530f13b224740347871fe4c6c73e5e9e9
File: "review.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: e2e824bfd9b86f3cedc57a7e8067c48e
SHA: 82621b911570ab0a964d29ffb83b1dee3572a8ce
SHA256: 344cad65134195b96624c3b8f4a66f544c015262c98b512625386a735bccddba
SHA384: 92d77c04d86fc9306e0d9a616742b2e06710bafa2ced1602dd288c0960ede0c5
3cde1b2ea55cbf520c8f3cb8690cff92
SHA512: bbc84c707ae1b21d28e4df207c7caffa5bf94d90056b8b05b55808e03dc7f8c9
be859082dde335160610d5bdd0a3e26934f7d2995025d7bc8dbf9bd32e359730
RIPEMD128: 401726a01f50a08aae6edf97d1fd8037
RIPEMD160: 470a142d07066ffaae554ca2f5eebd3304354610
File: "logfile.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: a3ac3e246a71b0428c4d0f6693e7da3b
SHA: d98c3e93df88a7bcd944dd16ac9a8704211e654c
SHA256: 76d2ad4ebaf35d71476d07849f324aa0f769169a00e07ed6d6082a25a4d446c4
SHA384: 59e92a2deae3cf0e659ba626aa38b135cedce6a51240be04b7248c10c257e56d
40e78edb27353bf01036c685e8c01466
SHA512: 5f919396c610e6bd8d139862104d466ae7a5c4f884740f1dc1154c0b3df8deab
76be5ef80fc19355c96cbb742f10e406d609ead44a33d07ab3a2a0787fee57cd
RIPEMD128: 5f1fcea5b90cdd026f98179249ce9402
RIPEMD160: b1207042abf9948e25a8572e593d82e3b0c38dfb
File: "post sci.physics"
Size: 2184
MD5: 3e7276fd0c136fe153aa17d6acd55e28
SHA: 3250e79437277119fce7547575ba646ac37c69e5
SHA256: 47a45494e0f81a49a98ac930fea7893a7c566162e758f4484e712cc39203a5c2
SHA384: e604811cefd6ac66db0e22da7e55b072c1329c93fa213108f4a56a762a04e5b8
1bb6c872763d155da5eb145b0f0824f6
SHA512: a8ef7e640a6acedd7894ead6677182afb8f72b88ad4ed73d1741543fbe7aefa2
961cad381b8adced8910a5cce3a38bec6c1d56a995e5907a9febcead3d4673a5
RIPEMD128: fc6aedf0d4c4be9006f479734b0cf5ef
RIPEMD160: 70a1ee5c97795b0f903e6e9ffc269e4cd6e9597a
File: "post' sci.physics"
Size: 5183
MD5: d069a2ebf2079ddf85d3f88a69f6cd9d
SHA: e7ff72de3e2bb5d245ab6d742d40c8cbc6e590e4
SHA256: 2f7794851b0b204524bc06bd2e9952cd832c73ee08a08195e58c829a26cdb009
SHA384: d95f2be9a6f4cbf198033cdc80f2fdf57a493a1a3e2c9238ec6a5d09b9d870aa
5f0a824fd79a8e4b13a558e803aa32d5
SHA512: b7e31e5cf32fa032e4a2894678eaf73e02898e40dc7acd670ed6cc1dcf4b94d4
7bdd182168c72bbe5a835b8f73ed330169f5f86c1206f36a1567082f6141bc20
RIPEMD128: a7d311f2c441fbe08b5ec64bcb29a76b
RIPEMD160: 6f07142cc60d359698c8b1a99405f093e8b2a7da
File: "web20020810.zip"
Size: 1360797
MD5: d605bdc9f91baaec6cda4bd6a7dadab7
SHA: e24beb539106ce8fd9ba98b535322216f4c5aeee
SHA256: b0e0d7795e99d31278e0c664f8db51dd1051e7791d199e5e107142deeee5ce5d
SHA384: 162bd72f6097076cef88540e2d6c0f62ce1c3918605911c1b549bba9567bee57
357cbf1e7af3713e71a9f0ff0f4a8fa2
SHA512: 6b0aeb41c3786f984a282ec64d7566a63099ea5d85d4c9abed24c48b33b1f28c
58f0c976f151a0e7cc9b2b4091d75ecb0bdde41630224bde2d62003c602b357b
RIPEMD128: c21fe480f69b1285c9a10180d9f9f59a
RIPEMD160: f635c8f9cd3d3ca75a1ca0471aa2645667bdfe60
File: "web20020810.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: b646d415a7ed1d76162bbf72f25e3e41
SHA: 5b3d95d800f5918334c67081e9a62d251975e51b
SHA256: 11e6abb7955cf0f475d53df1e49485ed790c6f530617d9b9762b81d8076f0649
SHA384: d0c53b35209b30de6b9c222ffb77e63cdf67d3fb6f1ae018698efedf5d7555db
30f6f5b40e2032e1a28d15baa457f807
SHA512: 919987f1b9e24cd88b95fffbb1a25186a7718fd1897e25dd3afe3d19b61a9764
9e8b39054101af52fa767ebae1427b2a26e1b81d91b23daf66e7fae307095698
RIPEMD128: 5a46fe53d8a112f22b9392ce426a9020
RIPEMD160: 81bdcab3b47c78d6af6e8376c2c0ff6307c5d504
File: "web20020819.zip"
Size: 1267695
MD5: 4be001ab0428a303617b26f022d93136
SHA: 1b239474f22976b562951399db2e295dd46d008b
SHA256: 2cfde0ee80f1b97a53e95a1807cbc1a37fc6211d31ba1e4f4d2a5c2f7ad91d6b
SHA384: 7be3c00d0fd197ac60a809fb4f0bede64826eb5d85a12255354b86505c708c52
28c1f588bf8dbceb26ca34b5b1e905e5
SHA512: 37956b08a0d8150b8fea8d58296e5abcf8345e368486f91c7af81552cdd249c1
0d66aeda816a25afc005ead7116ee62046d8cca8dc194ece2a76b0e6daa3e428
RIPEMD128: fca8c22f5842d10d3eb6d91096ea022b
RIPEMD160: b8b5b25db413aafc91bf0fe3eaf43c0cb1a627dc
File: "web20020819.p7"
Size: 663
MD5: c4632ce27882db3bbf048b6016855eb4
SHA: fb24e2af8134712f8e9661a3b85d5876afc75c44
SHA256: 514c7afa3a1dde3e134b5f1ff4795bcd14e6c08bfeef6c684080a121820bd61f
SHA384: 62b8c93cac43bbff519ec02f7aa6f9848ef43cb813a360f4ed00e1871ee270c5
fb5fb25eb362e12b51cb5983ddcf867a
SHA512: 67e310b65ae6ec75a2d48047e4905a5d8bc61001eb7f6b2f8aa2e3705608f714
8eb60233896455f823b9c9b1bdcca37260f244d1d26c30021382d5b9fe7510d7
RIPEMD128: e04f5f3d456079656d2c894265fb8f20
RIPEMD160: 7891cca8c43e71f993ed268b1ba1fca73f4ab712
File: "swisskey2000.crt"
Size: 1157
MD5: 25be3f1299130bbbf8beffba619be69c
SHA: dabd936d03d39596da830368fd9c2e0d204048e7
SHA256: e9b68a4453066c79935b55f5a4accfdd1711a5fba402aa265d65a2c63895fc91
SHA384: 8e37eb4ee17dc95ce8aa486723f3874cac42bc2f77b74fb5f87c900cdf470ac4
0bc72969ffaa7e53a54263033dde2811
SHA512: 316ff385d1e55b1168a88477209093ef7f790b8b09f07fa6eef2334b62fd8c8c
56e8592da4ef685e4a412cda73e6199873c6e752ece1c15c85e89eb8be870819
RIPEMD128: d4d05b4d6adb95b1dbd43d15158308e0
RIPEMD160: 7d94f171e05a345fd9541b73189232286e0d2999
File: "Personal ID CA 1024.crl"
Size: 165963
MD5: f8278334295c900a5bdede54d4031033
SHA: 5d045d02fe68e3ddaf11c23c0278c08bca289cd3
SHA256: e0ac99061202e6f0ce0f0d5abe91e2738b049c9ace4789139712437798dbd52f
SHA384: 35aadb0f6da9b57da6876c00416274411db49887fa927d7705bb387ad164f077
2eaffb886ece5acbd09e8a08f547e1e4
SHA512: f4b84f3fad59c5fb50386926f61848e8a12a041df7feb92a059d4a9f3db1c593
c92c28b48126fe5697361ea6f1ea80739dfc82ba0877d6c1e971605fb13ff145
RIPEMD128: 406cb13ce64fc2ccd3f26d4e7108f8f8
RIPEMD160: 51418b3e5e0b6b783bd59866dca028801dcfc6a9
Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
It is now more than 20 years since the beginning of psychological
astrology. Combining psychology and astrology has proven to be
very useful and has yielded many deeper insights into astrology.
However, approaching and learning psychological astrology is not
an easy task. Each student has to learn to use and understand
many archetypal pictures and how they are related to star signs,
planets, etc.
In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
after the other and explain things as I go along.
Fire
One basic archetype for Fire is simply a burning fire. There are
three fire signs, Aries, Leo and Sagittarius; they come after
each other in that order in the zodiac. Now, a fire starts with
lots of wood and little flames and smoke, then in the middle, it
burns full force until, finally, almost no wood is left and lots
of smoke has gone up into the air. Let's look at things very
basically: Wood is solid, so it is a form of Earth, whereas Smoke
is a form of Air. So, in this very basic view, a burning fire
transforms Earth to Air.
Now, the idea is that the three Fire signs symbolize the three
different phases of a burning fire. Aries is an early fire that
consists mainly of Earth (wood) and has produced little Air
(smoke) yet. Leo is a fully burning fire with ample amounts of
Earth and Air, Sagittarius consists only of little Earth but lots
of Air. Now, let me connect this to psychology.
Earth stands for reality and it also stands for the human body.
Why does Earth stand for the human body ? Well, Earth produces
plants that then feed animals. Similarly, the body of a woman
produces new life too, namely a child. Air stands for the mind,
for language. Now, one important difference between Earth and Air
is that the human body is mortal, but creations of the mind can
be written down or taught to the next generation, so Air is
immortal while Earth is mortal.
Fire itself stands psychologically for the imaginary power to
visualize how things could or should be. So, Fire transforms
mortal Earth into immortal Air. The human body and especially its
brain produces by imagination timeless, immortal thoughts that
can be given on to later generations.
Several psychological properties of the Fire signs can be
understood from that, for example:
a) secrecy/openness: If you are immortal, you can afford to be
open, since nothing can really affect you too much then. So
Sagittarius is often open whereas Aries tries to keep things
secret until he is sure he can defend them. Leo is in between,
has to decide for each issue whether to be frank about it or not.
b) wound: Psychological astrology connects Sagittarius for
example to the centaur Chiron that is accidentally wounded with a
poisoned arrow from his friend Heracles. The arrow contains
deadly poison so that Chiron suffers deadly pains, but since he
is immortal, he cannot die, until he later is allowed into the
underworld by Zeus in exchange for Prometheus. So, how is this
connected to a burning fire ? Very directly, since Fire burns
wood (Earth), so it wounds the physical mortal body. Since
Sagittarius is mainly made of immortal Air, the wound is bigger
in him than in Leo or Aries, but he still cannot die from it.
Psychologically, the wound also stands for consideration of the
other. Aries is quite egoistically, he is not wounded much and
also cannot afford to much altruism since he has to protect his
own mortality. Leo typically starts out in life just like Aries,
but typically later in life has to learn to show and feel
consideration for other people's feelings and needs. Sagittarius
typically learns that already earlier. He can afford to be
altruistic even if that is painful because people will take
advantage of it, but in the end that cannot hurt his immortal
soul.
Let me stop here from giving more examples for Fire, so that the
text remains readable without being superficial. Before we go to
Water, let me connect the transition of the Fire signs, namely
Earth-Fire-Air, to the philosophy of Aristotle. He viewed the
four elements to be composed of two pairs of properties: hot/cold
and dry/wet. The four elements are composed as follows:
Fire: hot+dry
Earth: cold+dry
Air: hot+wet
Water: cold+wet
From that model, he described how elements can be transformed
into each other, namely by changing one of these properties at a
time. So, you can go from Earth to Fire by making Earth hot (and
keeping it dry), then you can go to Air by making Fire wet (and
keeping it hot). This gives a closed circle: You can make Air
cold to get Water and then make Water dry to arrive back at Earth
again.
So, the Fire signs are part of that circle, just as the other
signs are, as I will try to show below.
Water
One archetypal image for Water is how it can transform from ice
to liquid water and then evaporate. So, his is again a transition
from Earth (ice) to Air (evaporated water), only this time it
goes through Water and not Fire. In other words, the transforming
power is feelings, not imagination.
Just as for the Fire signs above, the first Water sign, Cancer,
is made mainly of Earth (ice) and little Air (evaporated air),
Scorpio contains roughly equal amounts of Earth and Air, and,
finally, Pisces are mainly made of Air and little Earth. Now,
lets get into psychology again.
When something melts and evaporates, boundaries are removed,
things are allowed to mix with each other. This explains why
Cancer is so protective, why he tries to be secure of intrusion
into his shell (a solid border, or, in other words, Earth).
Scorpio is still suspicious and has to protect himself from pain,
the shell is still partially there, but he is also ready to give
in and to penetrate into others if he feels that this is
necessary. Pisces are mainly immortal Air, so nothing can really
hurt them anymore, they quite freely mix with all kinds of people
and other influences.
Let me extend on these meanings by giving three additional
archetypes for Water. Both derive from the basic archetype above.
Rivers originate in the mountains from springs, then flow down as
rivers while merging into larger rivers and flowing into the sea,
from where the water eventually evaporates (and then falls back
onto earth in the form of rain to feed the sources in the
mountains again). This is the circle of water. The source in the
mountains corresponds to Cancer, because it is the beginning of
the circle, but also because in the mountains it is colder than
below, there are often snow and ice (glaciers), which are forms
of Earth. Scorpio stands then for a river that flows down and
melts with other rivers. Pisces stand for the sea.
This fits very well with the impulsive creativity of Cancer,
where sometimes something just has to come out, or with Scorpio's
need to extend its influence, like the rivers that merge, or
simply with the many associations that connect Pisces to the sea.
Before I mention another piece of mythology, let me give the
other two archetypes.
The three fates stand for three phases in the life of a woman and
also for the three phases of the moon. Cancer, again because it
is the first Water sign in the zodiac, stands for a girl, Scorpio
for an adult woman and Pisces for an old woman. What defines
these three phases is the ability to have children. A young girl
cannot have children yet, whereas an old woman cannot have
children any more. This is also how the connection to the three
phases of the moon comes about: The phase around full moon shows
a round and full moon, which is similar to the round belly of a
pregnant woman. The two phases of the moon before that and after
that correspond to girl and old woman. The fourth phase when the
moon is not visible at all is a rest phase that is not really
included in this picture.
To make things complete, let me give another piece of mythology
that is typically correlated with Cancer (and Scorpio). Heracles
is fighting the monster Hydra in the swamps which had been sent
by Hera. The Hydra has 9 heads, and whenever Heracles chops off
one head, 3 others grow back. Only when he not only chops off the
heads, but also burns the stumps, does he succeed in winning the
fight. He almost lost the fight because of a crab that had been
sent by Hera too that bit Heracles into the foot while he was
fighting the Hydra. Heracles stomped the crab, but Hera gave the
crab a place in the sky as the star sign Cancer because the crab
was so loyal to her.
The interpretation of this myth is typically about the relation
between mother and child. This is most clearly seen from the fact
that Heracles means "Fame of Hera". Let me analyze further what
you see here on the elementary symbolic level. As usual, all the
proponents in the myth symbolize some aspects of Cancer, not only
the crab, but also Heracles, Hera, the Hydra, the swamps, etc.
The numbers 3 and 9=3x3 relate to the three fates. The element
Water is typically passive, water just flows down, never up. That
is the role of the crab, to bite the hero into the foot so that
he leaves his shell and cares for the things that are hurting the
mother Hera, symbolized by the nine-headed Hydra. The hero not
only has to chop off the heads to remove what hurts, but also to
heal the wounds by burning the stumps so that no new heads grow
back.
Pisces are connected to everything, since they have mixed all the
water, they care about everybody and everything, but Cancer has
not mixed much yet, mostly cares about a few close friends and
family. Sometimes the "mother", which is the unconscious
background of all the influences that had flown into the sea and
which form the water that comes out of the spring; sometimes the
"mother" has to hurt the "child" a bit to make it care for
something outside of itself.
I hope that I could convey the way of thinking about these things
a bit. It is essentially quite simple. You just look for
properties that are equal or similar between different
archetypes, like numbers that appear in them or the fact that
something is separated or mixed, etc. So, maybe you will allow me
to go through the remaining two elements a bit more quickly now.
Air
One important archetypal image is a cloud. A thunderstorm
typically starts out with lightning and thunder, when it is going
on full-force, there is lightning and rain, and, finally, the
storm ends will mostly rain and almost no lightning. So, we have
lightning (Fire) at the beginning and rain (Water) in the end.
Accordingly, Gemini, the first Air sign, is composed mainly of
Fire and only little Water, Libra of roughly equal amounts of
Fire and Water, and Aquarius mainly of Water and only little
Fire.
Lightning and fire are quick and unpredictable, this fits well
with Gemini. Rain is constant and falls in equal amounts on
everybody, this fits well with the altruism of Aquarius and the
fact that he is a fixed sign. Similarly to the Water signs, this
can also be seen as three stages in the life of a man (Air is a
male element). Children are quick and unpredictable, they can
change their moods from very unhappy to very happy within
seconds. Old men, in contrast, tend to become somewhat immobile
in their thinking and only open for new things that are not too
new, but, of course, they can compensate for part of this by
their greater experience.
A child has to learn how the world behaves by playing, by looking
at things from different sides. The first time you see a coin,
you only see pictures from different sides. It takes work in the
brain to connect these pictures into a single, abstract object
that is then given a name, "coin". The older you get, the more
things in the world are recognized to be just different sides of
the same things. For children there are more things than for
adults. The more you learn, the more transparent things become,
they become transparent like rain (Water).
Earth
One important archetypal image is the tree. It is made of wood
(Earth). In order to grow, a tree needs essentially two things,
light from the sun (Fire) from above and Water from its roots
below the surface. The transition is Fire-Earth-Water. The first
Earth sign of the zodiac, Taurus, is composed essentially of
Fire, Virgo of roughly equal amounts of Fire and Water, and
Capricorn essentially of Water.
The roots of the tree which feed it with Water symbolize the
structure that keeps the tree from falling down during its whole
life. What is visible from the tree from the outside, where the
sun (Fire) shines, namely leaves, flowers and fruits are more
beautiful, but also short-lived. They reappear every year.
Accordingly, for Taurus beauty is more important than structure,
whereas for Capricorn it is the other way round. Virgo is in
between. She has to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to go
for more order or more beauty. It is worthwhile to explore why
popular astrology typically describes Virgo as well-ordered while
in reality that should be attributed rather to Capricorn. The
main reason is that order is a big issue for Virgo because there
is the conflict with beauty, whereas for Capricorn such a
conflict does not exist. In addition, Virgo often has a tendency
to exaggerate, to go either for more or less order that she can
live with for a long time. It is often only a bit later in life
that Virgo learns to balance these opposite needs.
Summary
Astrology is a complex, organic structure. No simple model can
fully reproduce its richness. Nonetheless, like any living
organism, astrology has some bones, some structures that are
almost always the same in all individuals. I hope this text has
given sufficient indication that there actually are such simple
structures in astrology. They can be helpful in many ways:
Astrologers can gain a more structured view of archetypes and
they can maybe more easily explain some astrological concepts to
their clients. Access to psychological astrology becomes easier.
This can help many people to help themselves in lighter cases,
sort of as "prescription-free" medication in astrology. (In
analogy, if you just have a light cold, there is typically no
need to see a doctor, practically everybody knows quite well
what to do in that case).
But the simplicity of the model of the model presented above
might also have more far-reaching consequences. It is so simple
that even scientists could easily learn it and compare its
predictions with psychological reality. That would probably lead
to general acceptance of astrology and make it branch of science
again, after 300 years of separation. The consequences of that
are quite far-reaching, and hard to estimate for everybody,
especially since everybody has some responsibilities into how
things will turn out.
Further Literature
This is based on ideas published recently on the internet:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Note that the document above is written very densely, much like a
scientific publication in exact sciences. This means that
practically nothing is ever repeated and some simpler logical
steps of connecting things to what has been said previously have
been left out. Still, if you are interested, you can probably
read and understand quite a bit of it now. But I also have to
warn you. It proposes also some deeper changes of how our world
may be. Furthermore, it goes psychologically quite deep, both in
general terms and in terms of collective psychologicial wounds.
My major astrological influences for this work were two books by
Liz Greene, namely "Astrology for Lovers" and "The Astrology of
Fate". It still amazes me how one could be able to fit mythology
so precisely to the star signs and psychology without access to
the simple structure that I presented.
I am a physicist who got into astrology rather accidentally, if
there is such a thing as an accident. So please tell me if that
text was too hard to understand, or if contains some gross errors
or maybe if there is previous work that should be mentioned, etc.
Alain Stalder
In article <8c7d34cb.0209032121.68d938b6@posting.google.com>,
zirkusz@hotmail.com (zirkus) wrote:
> I'm curious what people think of this short preprint which suggests
> that the gravitational field cannot be quantized, and thus that there
> are no gravitons. ".... This leads us to say that the gravitational
> field is always a static field which is in line with the null results
> of gravitational waves."
>
> http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0208085
I took a look at the preprint. It essentially gives an argument
that the graviton cannot have spin 0 or 1, which is well known.
If it had spin 1, like charges (masses) would repel and not
attract each other. If it had spin 0, it would not couple to
light, but light deflection by mass has been detected (during
solar eclipses some stars that would have been behind the sun
without deflection were still visible).
For a more extensive and quite readable explanation why the
graviton would most likely be a massless spin 2 particle,
I recommend the chapter "Quantum Gravity" by Brian Hatfield in
"The Feynman Lectures on Gravitation", Addison-Wesley (1995).
Alain Stalder
In article <8c7d34cb.0209032121.68d938b6@posting.google.com>,
zirkusz@hotmail.com (zirkus) wrote:
> I'm curious what people think of this short preprint which suggests
> that the gravitational field cannot be quantized, and thus that there
> are no gravitons. ".... This leads us to say that the gravitational
> field is always a static field which is in line with the null results
> of gravitational waves."
>
> http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0208085
I took a look at the preprint. In brief, it first gives an
argument for something that is already well known and then,
I am afraid to say, draws a wrong conclusion from it.
In detail: An argument is given that a quantum field theory
of gravitation would have to be described by an antisymmetric
tensor field, whereas scalar, vector and symmetric tensor
fields can be excluded. From that it is concluded (correctly)
that the graviton cannot have spin 0 or 1. However, the
final conclusion that there is no graviton, because it could
not couple to matter with spin 1/2, is wrong.
Of course, there is no consistent quantum theory of gravitation
at the moment, but some elementary things will very likely
still hold in such a theory (else some existing quantum field
theories would very likely also be in trouble):
a) Light deflection by matter has been observed experimentally
(During solar eclipses some stars that would be hidden
behind the sun without deflection were still visible).
This excludes spin 0 for the graviton (because the photon
has spin 1).
b) In eletromagnetism, like charges repel, but in gravitation
like "charges" (masses) attract. This excludes spin 1 for
the graviton (again because photons have spin 1).
c) The above and the symmetry properties of the classical
gravitational field (in general relativity) suggest that
the graviton has spin 2 (higher multiples of 2 cannot be
excluded, though).
(For a more detailed and well-readable description about
why the graviton would most likely be a massless spin 2
particle, see e.g. the chapter "Quantum Gravity" by Brian
Hatfield in "The Feynman Lectures on Gravitation"
(Addison-Wesley, 1995) - or what Feynman himself writes
in lectures that were held almost 40 years ago...)
Alain Stalder
In article <3d7b6ad5_4@news.chariot.net.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> ----------
> In article <astalder-B3941C.06261208092002@news.dplanet.ch>, Alain
> Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
> >
> >It is now more than 20 years since the beginning of psychological
> >astrology. Combining psychology and astrology has proven to be
> >very useful and has yielded many deeper insights into astrology.
> >However, approaching and learning psychological astrology is not
> >an easy task. Each student has to learn to use and understand
> >many archetypal pictures and how they are related to star signs,
> >planets, etc.
> >
> >In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
> >of the twelve star signs of the zodiac.
>
> [SNIPPED MOST OF TEXT}
> >
> >I am a physicist who got into astrology rather accidentally, if
> >there is such a thing as an accident. So please tell me if that
> >text was too hard to understand, or if contains some gross errors
> >or maybe if there is previous work that should be mentioned, etc.
> >
> >Alain Stalder
>
> RM: I like the different way you have described the Signs. Quite a
> few parts of it will help people to recall the basic meanings more
> easily.
> Talking about "Psychological (Tropical, Geocentric, Astrology)" - I
> was never aware that such a title had been adopted until recently, and
> had thought that the "psychological" approach was merely a way for
> ex-students of psychology who also practised astrology to relate to
> each other or their clients. After all, it would be quite pointless to
> use some of the language of psychology with less-educated clients :-)
>
> What will we have next - Realistic astrology, Standard English
> astrology, Cocktail astrology, Man-in-the-street astrology, Odds-based
> astrology, Questionnaire astrology, New-Age astrology, Good-News
> astrology, Multiple-Choice astrology, Comprehensible astrology?
> Where will it end?
>
> Ray
Thank you very much for the reply. One thing that I associate
with psychological astrology and which goes beyond "astrology
done by psychologists", is the aim to go deeper, to go beyond
what (they view as) superficial simplistic descriptions of the
star signs. It may be a somewhat bold statement, but in my
understanding this is an important step in astrology towards
modern science, away from merely describing nature towards
explaining it.
Let me explain what I mean by comparing it with what happened
with astronomy (with an "n") a few hundred years ago. Until
Newton, astronomers simply observed where the planets where when
in the sky and then used that information to extrapolate where
they would be in the future. Whether that was using epicycles in
a geocentric view or circles and later ellipses by Copernicus and
Kepler, the focus was on description.
That changed radically with Newton. What Newton described was the
forces that act on planets, it described their *motivation* to
move. From the forces between masses one can then determine the
accelerations acting on the masses (Force divided by mass gives
acceleration). From the acceleration, the velocity and finally
the position of a planet can be determined.
Similarly, psychological astrology tries to describe the
psychological motivations of people to rather do certain things
that others in given situation. Of course, what is measured is in
both cases (astrology/psychology and astronomy) what can be seen
and heard. (Even in physics forces are not measured directly, but
usually translated to a change of position, say of a spring, like
a lever etc.)
In my understanding, the importance of motivation in
psychological astrology comes from the fact that it was created
essentially by people with Pluto in Leo. That is also where I see
my simpler model of the twelve star signs that I described in the
original post. Since I am from the generation with Pluto in Virgo
(in fact I was born just a few weeks after the Uranus-Pluto
conjunction in Virgo in 1966), the simple model I made can be
seen as part of the analysis of the harvest that Leo has
generated during the summer (like fruits grow in summer and later
in summer the harvest is brought in, sorted out, and stacked in).
It is always hard to predict the future, but with the generation
with Pluto in Virgo starting to speak out more in public, the
number of categories is probably more likely to increase than
not. If I am not mistaken, I have already heard the term "new age
astrology", but "new age" has been combined with many things
anyway.
From other posts, I assume that you are have some interest in
scientific tests of astrology. In that sense, my next post that I
am about to write might be interesting, as it needs less precise
birth times than for testing Gauqelin's Mars effect (in fact, in
most cases the birth *date* should be sufficient), and, yet, it
makes quite detailed predictions, based on just a very simple
extension to the model...
Anybody else who would like to comment on my original post ? (or
maybe on this one ?) As a physicist I know a lot less people than
professional counselors do, so it would be very helpful for me to
hear how well my models fit in people's personal experience.
Alain Stalder
In this post I would like to focus on just one of the many things
that planets influence in a birth chart, although it may be an
important one. As far as I can see, it is widely compatible with
current views of the planets, only a little bit more specific.
But let me get concrete: The idea is simply that planets
influence the relations to family members that are commonly
associated with the corresponding planet.
Here are the hypotheses one after the other:
a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
children.
b) The influence of the sun is similar: It influences how
children behave towards their fathers and how fathers behave
towards their children.
c) This relative behaviour remains the same, even if the children
become adults and eventually parents themselves. They will still
behave like sun/moon towards their fathers/mothers.
d) The relative behaviour also extends beyond physical parents to
people who assume a parental role, like a step father/mother or a
teacher.
e) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards siblings.
f) Mars influences how one likes to behave towards male friends
of roughly the same generation (unless they are siblings). This
specifically includes how one likes to behave towards male
lovers.
f) Accordingly, Venus influences how one likes to behave towards
female friends of roughly the same generation (unless they are
siblings). This specifically includes how one likes to behave
towards female lovers.
g) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards people
fighting for the same lover. (I say this because siblings also
fight for the love of their parents). In other words, if, say,
two men who are friends fall in love with the same woman, they
will typically start to behave in a different way towards each
other.
Now, of course, I am aware that a lot more things influence how
people relate to each other, like the ascendent for people who do
not know each other very well or the relative aspects between
people's planets (i.e. synastry). I am also aware that meanings
of planets are much broader than what I wrote about above.
However, in my limited experience the above model already says a
lot about some essential family relations and hence might be well
suited for experimental tests of astrology. I see a possible
experiment as follows: Choose a thousand families (maybe
including close friends) and hand out questionnaires to them in
which each member of the family separately has to answer the same
questions about how family members behave towards each other.
For example, you would ask the mother how her son behaves towards
her, towards his father, brother, etc. You would ask her simple
questions like "Is he generally open towards you (mostly
yes/sometimes yes and sometimes not/mostly not) ?" and the
corresponding questions about the other members of the family.
The word "generally" is important here, as also the current
positions of planets around the time the questionnaires are
answered would have some influence on relative behavior.
Now, let me mention two potential advantages of such a test: a)
You get a lot of data. If you ask, say, 25 questions per
relation, and choose families (plus close friends) with a total
of 10 people, you get roughly 40 relations, i.e. 25x40=1000
answers per family. With 1000 families, you get 1 million
answers. If that fits well, it constitutes a very convincing
result. b) You do not need accurate birth times. Except for the
moon, typically the birth *date* is sufficient. If the sign the
moon or another planet is in, is unsure, it is simply excluded
from the analysis of the data.
So tell me, how does this sound to professional astrologers who
know probably already a thousand families quite in detail ? Is
the model too simple or does it essentially correspond to your
experience, maybe not in all respects that would be needed to
help a client, but clearly enough to convince a rather
sceptically minded person, or even only the client ?
Alain Stalder
--
PS: I know that many people are rather busy at the moment with
pursuing their own agendas (I am no exception there, either). I
think this is at least partially because Uranus is near the end
of Aquarius. This looks to me like the old man who absolutely
wants to pull through some final things, before "dying" next
spring when things will dissolve into many possibilities again,
once Uranus enters Pisces.
So, maybe if you would be interested in principle, but just have
no time at the moment, maybe you would like to come back to these
posts next spring or so. For that, simply remembering the word
"exactphilosophy" now will do. Later on, you can then go to
http://groups.google.com and search for posts to
alt.astrology.moderated that contain the word "exactphilosophy".
That should make this post and others by me (plus replies)
reappear again.
I took the freedom to change the order in the text.
> >PS: I know that many people are rather busy at the moment with
> >pursuing their own agendas (I am no exception there, either). I
> >think this is at least partially because Uranus is near the end
> >of Aquarius. This looks to me like the old man who absolutely
> >wants to pull through some final things, before "dying" next
> >spring when things will dissolve into many possibilities again,
> >once Uranus enters Pisces.
>
> RM: The world is just moving progressively faster - that's all.
> I doubt that people's business has anything to do with Uranus.
> Perhaps when suitable major transits arrive, an awakening will occur
> whereby the masses realise that nothing much has changed over the
> centuries, and that most people are still all slaves to the powers
> that be -- even if we DO own a microwave oven and a tv set :-)>
I am quite suspicious about your two first sentences. Sure,
Aquarius likes progress, but he is also focused as a fixed sign
on progress within certain boundaries. Since he represents an old
man, there are certain things that are not reconsidered, that are
not reflected upon; they are simply taken for granted from
previous experience. Aquarius tends to reject things that do not
fit into his Weltbild quite quickly, without thinking much.
There I see Aquarius opposite to Gemini, the first Air sign,
which represents the curious child who likes to look at new
things from all kinds of angles, likes to reflect on how things
might be.
Opposite of Gemini in the Zodiac is Sagittarius, who again
represents an old man too, this time as the last Fire sign.
Sagittarius has lots of overview of many things, which is again
sort of a look at a surface (overview is looking at things from
above, at their surface). Sagittarius also shares the quickness
of Gemini. In my experience, Sagittarius without the wound of
Chiron would not be interested much in looking deeper into
things, in considering things for a longer time and in depth.
Judging from the posting times at groups.google.com, your reply
came only 2h20min after my post, which is hardly enough time to
reconsider some things that might potentially have become rather
stiff believed experience. So, this makes me quite suspicious of
whether your reply comes from a genuine effort to reconsider
things based on psychological reality or maybe just mainly from
conclusions that have been made many years ago already.
Maybe I am too suspicious, but it appears that what I said in my
post is confirming itself - people just seem not to be willing at
the moment only to step a little bit back and look at things with
an open mind.
> >In this post I would like to focus on just one of the many things
> >that planets influence in a birth chart, although it may be an
> >important one. As far as I can see, it is widely compatible with
> >current views of the planets, only a little bit more specific.
> >But let me get concrete: The idea is simply that planets
> >influence the relations to family members that are commonly
> >associated with the corresponding planet.
> >
> >Here are the hypotheses one after the other:
> >
> >a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
> >mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> >birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
> >the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> >of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> >children.
>
> RM: I'm convinced that people relate to all others according to:
> (a) Their own horoscopes
> (b) The other person's chart
> (c) Education (which obviously modifies (a) + (b).
> (d) Previous personal experience.
>
> So I doubt that there would be any special means of communication,
> like the things you are suggesting.
> [.....]
Here I am again quite suspicious. What I am proposing is part of
(a) and (b). I do not doubt the influence of (c) and (d).
What I am missing is a genuine and fresh attempt to compare how
family members relate to each other. Sometimes I suspect that
astrologers are especially hesitant to apply astrology to
themselves and their families. The most direct way to get a
feeling whether there is something to what I am saying, would be
to apply it to oneself, e.g. to how one behaves towards the own
mother and to how the own mother behaves towards oneself. Doing
something like that is not something that is done in a few
minutes. There may be unconscious barriers and without a deeper
aim to look at how things really are, I remain suspicious of
whether people just choose the easier way out by quickly
rejecting things at the first occasion.
Your last sentence seems to apply directly to my document at
http://www.exactphilosophy.net . It is quite an open point (also
to me who proposed it) whether there are long-range emotional
connections between people. But some questions nag me about this;
some common answers seem not convincing.
If two people are in love, they often experience this as a
connection that exists between them. If one of the two leaves the
room, the feeling of love remains.
If you asked a mother whether she would feel anything when her
child had a grave accident, somewhere else in town, would she
answer that she would not feel anything ?
Of course, currently the scientific answer would be that these
feelings come from the *wish* to be connected, not from an actual
connection.
On the other hand, astrologers often explain astrology as some
sort of connection between people on earth and stars and planets
in the sky. So, you can apparently take three paths here:
a) There are no long range interactions - then how comes that
astrology fits quite well with how people are ? (That is not a
scientific result at the moment either, but in my experience
things fit very well).
b) There are long range interactions, but only between people on
earth, not to the actual stars. That would explain astrology as a
psychological phenomenon only, without influence from the stars.
It would also explain why somebody who is born at the beginning
of spring and hence has the sun *astronomically* in Pisces is
considered Aries by astrology - namely because astrology is a
cultural, psychological phenomenon. It would also explain why
chinese astrology, for example, uses a totally different way to
determine how people are, which would in that case mostly apply
to Chinese, not to Europeans etc.
c) There are long range interactions, even to the stars - how
would that fit with precession and different cultures with
different astrologies, as explained above ?
I do not trust a) and c) much, unless somebody can provide some
significant other arguments. This leaves me with b). Moreover, b)
explains also quite a few more phenomena, even though those have
not been scientifically confirmed either, still giving b) rather
more credibility than not.
> >However, in my limited experience the above model already says a
> >lot about some essential family relations and hence might be well
> >suited for experimental tests of astrology. I see a possible
> >experiment as follows: Choose a thousand families (maybe
> >including close friends) and hand out questionnaires to them in
> >which each member of the family separately has to answer the same
> >questions about how family members behave towards each other.
>
> RM: I have the impression that questionnaires can very easily be
> inadequate unless the answers which are sought, are facts; and
> therefore a proposition like yours could easily be inadequate if
> trials and a LOT of thought went into the questions.
> >
> >For example, you would ask the mother how her son behaves towards
> >her, towards his father, brother, etc. You would ask her simple
> >questions like "Is he generally open towards you (mostly
> >yes/sometimes yes and sometimes not/mostly not) ?" and the
> >corresponding questions about the other members of the family.
>
> RM: People are not that honest - even f they DO know the answers.
> >
> >The word "generally" is important here, as also the current
> >positions of planets around the time the questionnaires are
> >answered would have some influence on relative behavior.
> >
> >Now, let me mention two potential advantages of such a test: a)
> >You get a lot of data. If you ask, say, 25 questions per
> >relation, and choose families (plus close friends) with a total
> >of 10 people, you get roughly 40 relations, i.e. 25x40=1000
> >answers per family. With 1000 families, you get 1 million
> >answers. If that fits well, it constitutes a very convincing
> >result. b) You do not need accurate birth times. Except for the
> >moon, typically the birth *date* is sufficient. If the sign the
> >moon or another planet is in, is unsure, it is simply excluded
> >from the analysis of the data.
>
> RM: We all have different approaches, but I would be more inclined to
> seek voluntary comment and (somehow) collate what was being said. I
> would also be seeking facts, if the idea was to get something that
> resembled a scientific study.
Thanks a lot for some concrete suggestions. As a physicist, I most
probably lack some experience about what is feasible. I will think
about it a bit more, so let me just make a few quick remarks that
came to my mind when reading your replies.
a) What is better, to chose to measure things that can be measured
objectively or else to predict what people will say, i.e. trying
to take into account that some people will lie or see things
differently than they are ?
b) I think it is important to choose really good questions, and
to test them with a handful of families. If the fit with lots of
families is good afterwards, I see no way how the questions could
bias the family members who all get the same questions in all
families. Moreover, the questions should essentially come from a
simple model of the star signs (like mine), they should be based
on as little assumptions as possible; that will make them a lot
more credible to scientists. The less parameters a theory has,
the more easily it is confirmed.
c) I guess collecting voluntary comment might really be the
better way to go. One could probably quite randomly collect
things from all kinds of people that know each other quite well.
Maybe some more private written communications like personal
letters or e-mail might be suitable.
> >So tell me, how does this sound to professional astrologers who
> >know probably already a thousand families quite in detail ? Is
> >the model too simple or does it essentially correspond to your
> >experience, maybe not in all respects that would be needed to
> >help a client, but clearly enough to convince a rather
> >sceptically minded person, or even only the client ?
> >
> >Alain Stalder
>
> RM: Astrologers often express the view that the best way to learn
> astrology is to read as many charts as they can handle - whether
> fully or partially. I think it goes without saying that the second
> best way to learn, is to listen to other (credible) astrologers and
> gradually pick up some of their best advice from their experiences.
> It's nice of course to hear some of the speculation about how certain
> chart factors ~might~ work, but there's nothing like real-life
> examples to bring it all together.
Robert Hand wrote an essay titled "On Creating a Science of
Astrology" (published in "Essays on Astrology", Whitford Press,
1982). In that essay, he compares current astrology to a craft.
There are lots of people who master the craft, but they still
mostly do not know consciously what they know. Robert Hand
compares the current situation in astrology to how chemistry was
a few hundred years ago.
At the onset, chemistry looks like something very complex,
without much structure. You can take two powders and heat them
and then get, say, a blue liquid. The substances you mix can be
totally different from what comes out when they combine. But
scientists got nature to answer lots of little questions, like in
what ratio do you have to mix substances to get 100% of the new
substance and nothing of the original substance left. Through
many, many tests the periodic table of the elements evolved and
explanations how other substances are composed of these elements.
Mathematical theories behind chemistry allow to predict the
energies needed to combine or split substances, etc.
I see no fundamental reason why some essential parts of astrology
could be analyzed in a similar way, simply by asking nature a few
simple questions.
Astrology is mainly a female science, at least its psychological
aspects. Women start already very early in life to observe how
others are and how they relate to them. They spend a lot more
time than men thinking about what others think about them and
about others. But women are also not very analytic. They often
have little interest in understanding things too logically and
consciously. Physics is almost the counterexample. A physical
theory is pure logic (mathematics) based on reality.
One more thing: In chemistry, it was important to separate
chemistry from alchemy, from astrology, from some psychological
beliefs about the elements etc. Similarly, it may be necessary to
separate astrology from the stars, at least temporarily, to
consider it as merely a man-made, psychological, cultural
construct. Otherwise, it is very unlikely to say the least that
many scientists will take a look at it.
However, sometimes I suspect that people are quite happy with the
way things are. Scientists seem to want to preserve a world where
every thought is conscious and logical, astrologers seem to want
to preserve a world that is principally not analyzable by
science, something that, say, "transcends" reality. This may be a
bit exaggerated and not correct for everybody, but the suspicion
remains.
Any feedback ?
(So far, no woman has ever answered to any of my posts on these
subjects. Are things just to complicated to say something about,
or is there fear to write ? Fear to have to face some issues
consciously, fear to lose some of the beauty of astrology by
allowing it to have a more simple and definite structure ?)
Alain Stalder
> >So, maybe if you would be interested in principle, but just have
> >no time at the moment, maybe you would like to come back to these
> >posts next spring or so. For that, simply remembering the word
> >"exactphilosophy" now will do. Later on, you can then go to
> >http://groups.google.com and search for posts to
> >alt.astrology.moderated that contain the word "exactphilosophy".
> >That should make this post and others by me (plus replies)
> >reappear again.
>
> I don't wish to discourage you at all - even if it sounds like it.
>
> Ray
As a physicist, the only thing that counts for me in the end is
what experiments will say, what nature will say. Opinions, including
mine, are of secondary importance. Of course, indirectly, it is
important to interest people enough to make the effort and take
the time to perform some experiments instead of others.
In some sense, with the moon in Aries, I am quite impatient to
see things tested, but in others I have lots of time. In that
respect, the most important thing for me at the moment is to stake
the claim, but also to get people a little bit to start reconsidering
and questioning some things that they now take for granted.
PS: This post was also written within just a few hours, and
Mercury is now retrograde, which may explain the partially
reverse order in which I responded to comments, and this
recursive paragraph, too.
In article <3d84aba3_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
[big snip]
Thank you very much for the feedback and the suggestions.
Alain Stalder
In article <am28nl$cag$1@reader08.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-046388.11030714092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> > a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
> > mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> > birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
> > the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> > of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> > children.
>
> I don't know about the child's behaviour towards mother, although I agree
> with mother's behaviour towards child.
> I was taught that the Moon's placing shows how the child, by response,
> experiences 'mother', which may differ considerably to how the child would
> wish mother could and should be to fulfil the child's own Moon needs.
>
> Would not the functions of those planets in aspect to the moon show the
> child's behaviour pattern towards mother rather than the sign in which Moon
> is placed? E.G. Moon in Taurus needs ' to feel mum is there for me' with
> the stability, shoulder hug, tea and cookies after school and, preferably, a
> well-filled purse it can rely on for its physical needs. But if Mars is
> square from Leo/Aquarius, mum might be seen as the dictatorial parent who
> requires to be proud of the child's accomplishments through its fending for
> itself, rather than who (s)he is; or, mum is felt to be so intent on her own
> independence that she will not connect to her child's needs and lets it
> wander freely. The result? Child 'behaves' with a strong individual streak
> of its own through Mars in Leo, or experiences a feeling of estrangement
> from/towards mother.
>
> Christine.
[...]
Thank you very much for a deeper look. I have the moon in Aries
and my mother has the moon in Cancer. Towards her, I never
hesitated to say when I did not like the food or something else.
I see also a similar behaviour in me towards women of roughly her
age, like female teachers I had in school or so. My moon is at a
square to my mothers moon and also to her Mars in Capricorn, and
in conjunction with her Saturn in Aries. I remember that if my
father was not around for lunch, me and my mother would often get
into arguments. Usually, that was because I was judging what she
said too literally and logically, because she would randomly use
words like "because" or "nevertheless" when there was often no
such logical connection. Today, I have learned to understand how
that is meant and arguments are a lot rarer.
What I want to say with that is that the obvious appears often
not to be the main source of psychological trouble. I think it
was Freud who discovered that smaller, but unconscious and
suppressed feelings are often the source of psychological
problems. For example, somebody who cared for and nurtured a
close relative who was seriously sick and eventually died from
the disease, will be essentially sad when the loved person dies,
but subliminally also relieved because he/she now gains some
freedom again, to do more things that he/she likes. People are
often ashamed of such feelings that may have already existed when
nurturing the other, and may even feel guilty of not having cared
enough. If such feelings are suppressed too much, they can result
in psychological problems.
In that sense, I think the main focus of an
astrological/psychological counselor is not much on the obvious,
on the surface that is visible to everybody, but to feel deeper
in order to find out what hurts. Similarly, a physician typically
feels different places on one's body, say on the chest and the
belly, while constantly asking "does that hurt ?". In that sense,
I think relative aspects are probably much more likely the source
of trouble in the relation between two people. The moon in a
child has to be somewhere, if it is in Aries that by itself is
maybe often just as little a problem than when it would be in
another sign. What makes the difference is how that moon relates
to the planets in the other person (but is, of course, also
influenced by the signs and houses all the planets are in).
In science, people are usually looking for definite answers, for
yes/no answers from nature. In psychology and astrology this
seems to be different; how somebody is and feels seems to be the
sum of many influences of different strengths that add like waves
in the ocean. There is always room to go deeper and discover some
new insights by going deeper.
In conclusion, I think scientists want some big waves, want the
obvious, whereas a psychologist and counselor has to find the
hidden things that hurt. In that sense, maybe the statement "the
moon is how one likes to behave towards the mother and towards
women of older generations who assume a motherly role, like e.g.
a female teacher" is one of the big waves. In my experience it
appears to fit quite well. That experience is based on roughly a
dozen people, which may appear not to be much, but if it would
not fit, wouldn't there be at least one clear counterexample
within these twelve people or so ?
Let me broaden the perspective quite a bit for two paragraphs (I
have planets in the 12th house, so that comes naturally to me).
Chapter 6 of "The Astrology of Fate" by Liz Greene is titled "The
Creation of the World" and describes how Zeus approaches Rhea in
disguise, how he says that he will take charge of things now,
that there will be recorded history, that he is now strong enough
to even tell triple lies, etc. But in the end Rhea succeeds in
preserving the three most important things under female control,
wind, death and destiny, without Zeus noticing it; that is why
she smiles in the end. Rhea is Earth, she stands (among many
other possible interpretations, of course) for the Age of Taurus
that is succeeded by the Age of Aries (symbolized by Zeus, the
planet Jupiter that is also associated with Sagittarius). Now, at
the moment, another female age is about to end, the Age of Pisces
and will be succeeded by the Age of Aquarius. I think it is
unavoidable that in such an age people will individually gain
more insights into their psyche, from scientific progress. But I
also think that these insights, will remain superficial in many
respects, although nobody may notice that for a long time. Since
these insights will come from science, they will describe mainly
the bigger waves, not the deeper insights. And there will
probably always be some skeptics who are afraid of the depths of
psyche and will prefer to deny their existence.
The two female elements, Earth and Water are literally heavier
than the male one, Fire and Air. A male diver can dive quite
deeply if he takes oxygen (Air) and light (Fire) with him, but he
can only go as deep as half of the oxygen and battery power
allow, then he has to turn back and go up again - he cannot live
for a long time under the surface of the sea, which symbolizes
the unconscious, collective parts of human psyche.
Getting back to the original question, is my hypothesis a rather
big wave, as it feels to me, and (maybe consequently) also one
that does not run into the danger of confronting many people with
deeper, suppressed psychological issues ? i.e. could it become
part of everyday knowledge without doing unnecessary harm, could
it become something that allows people to understand each other a
little bit better and so maybe to resolve some minor conflicts
or, else, for example, allow lovers to tease each other more
effectively ? Or is it merely a small wave ? (I assume the
hypothesis cannot be wrong altogether, because the sign a planet
is in, always has some influence in synastry.) No matter whether
it is a big wave or a small wave, it will not exclude the
existence of other waves that influence the same...
As another concrete example, at the moment Mars is in Virgo and
Venus in Scorpio. According to two other hypotheses that I
presented in the original post, that would mean that at the
moment, both men and women would behave more like Scorpio than
usual towards women and both men and women would behave more like
Virgo than usual towards men. I may be wrong, but think I can
recognize this in recent news posts, again probably not as a
source of trouble (about that individual aspects would very
probably tell a lot more), but as part of the general
underground.
Alain Stalder
In article <6a3d99a1.0209121313.1761d385@posting.google.com>,
ppetrov@hotmail.com (Plamen Petrov) wrote:
> Do you believe the Universe is a cellular automaton?
I remember reading a paper by Feynman about "Simulating Physics
with a Computer", which was, as far as I remember, from an early
conference related to quantum computing. As I remember the paper,
he investigated whether a cellular automaton where the state of a
cell at t+1 is given by the state of close cells at an earlier
time with some probability, would not be able to reproduce
quantum mechanics, as then some probabilities would have to be
negative. I think he was using Wigner functions in that argument,
and he also speculated (if I remember correctly) whether you
could include influence from the future and then "shake things
down" to a state that was minimal with respect to some quantity,
but without getting any more specific.
Do you allow for nonlocal influences in your definition of a
cellular automaton ? Or is it broader than what Feynman used in
another way ?
Alain Stalder
>
> Please answer the question by voting on the following Web page:
>
> http://ppetrov.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/003/poll_center.htm
>
> Thank you for your vote!
>
> ---
> Plamen Petrov
> http://digitalphysics.org
In article <am4t91$cc0$1@reader12.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> > > Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> > > astalder-046388.11030714092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> > > [..]
> > > > a) The moon influences how children like to behave towards their
> > > > mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> > > > birth chart of a child, influences how it tends to behave towards
> > > > the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> > > > of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> > > > children.
[...]
> Using your example a), I have Moon in Capricorn conjunct my mother's Sun..
> According to your theory, this would mean that I liked to behave towards my
> mother in a Capricornian fashion; cool, distant, harsh, hierarchial, and
> protective manner. Yet nothing is further from the truth. I 'felt', or my
> impression of my mother was that way, whereas I would have loved the warmer,
> cuddly, affectionate type person that probably every child desires. My
> mother's Moon is conjunct my Taurus Sun. Thank goodness other parts of our
> charts compensated in other ways.
>
> People with Moon in Pisces often 'feel' their mother wasn't there at all for
> them. I remember one client ( Aries Sun) saying that his mother was so busy
> being an angel for everyone else, that she was never in the house long
> enough to notice him or his needs. (He became head of an institute for
> retarded children). My Pisces Moon sister was evacuated for 6 years during
> the war and brought up by a wonderful 'pseudo' mother. She ' feels ' that my
> mother made so many personal sacrifices on behalf of her children. Yet this
> does not seem to go with your theory regarding a Moon in Pisces behaviour
> pattern towards mother.
[...]
> Christine.
>
Sorry if I only reply to part of your post for the moment. It will take
some time for me to look at things from your perspective, especially
since I have Saturn at the end of Pisces, so taking the place of the
other does not happen naturally to me and takes lots of time and effort
(probably at least until Mercury moves forward again, maybe longer).
Typically, I first feel what is right and what not; afterwards I analyze.
What you write about your family left me a feeling of doubt. After
thinking a bit about it, the following things started to disturb me:
- The words "cool" and "distant" are not things that I would attribute
to Capricorn. Structured, hierarchical, forcing to decide, yes, but
never without having some hidden fun in doing so and never without
adapting to other's needs during that process.
- Taurus, on the other hand, seems to me often to be insensitive to
others feelings, because his world view is so much based on what he
can immediately see and touch, not from any bad intention.
- Some things that I would see with your moon in Capricorn towards
your mother, would be to try (maybe unsuccessfully) to create some
structures, something reliable, to try to force some decisions from
the mother, to try to plan ahead.
- A mother with the moon in Taurus would rather change her attitude
towards you quickly, just going by what feels right at a given
moment, without much consistence or structure that one could
rely on, and there might be a lack to understand when the child
does not feel well even if all visible and touchable factors have
been taken care of.
- For all I know, Pisces is almost never wrong about judging other
people. So, without any additional information, I would take your
sister's statement for real (sorry, but that is how it feels to me),
showing that your sister understands and forgives your mother,
exactly because she (your sister) has her moon in Pisces.
I do not want to force things being in a specific way, but I am also
pressing for nature to decide, that is what a physicist does. That
is very similar to Capricorn (compared to Aquarius who sometimes tends
to force his view of the world). I will also look at things from your
point of view, but tell me, how does what I wrote feel to fit ?
Alain Stalder
In article <am708j$db4$2@reader13.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-A6E52E.21032016092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> > Sorry if I only reply to part of your post for the moment. It will take
> > some time for me to look at things from your perspective, especially
> > since I have Saturn at the end of Pisces, so taking the place of the
> > other does not happen naturally to me and takes lots of time and effort
> > (probably at least until Mercury moves forward again, maybe longer).
>
> I can understand that a strong Pisces/12th house nature has difficulty with
> the perspective of a strong practical and analytically-minded Earthy
> type.......and vice versa :-)
> I am not familiar with all of traditional astrology's teachings, but isn't
> Saturn well placed in Pisces? Does it not provide the reality and mastership
> of/in/to/and behind the mystical fantasy world and add structure and
> discipline to this world of non-form? Otherwise, all sense of reality is
> lost?
> I understand Pisces to be ' the' sign to empathise with the feelings of
> others; Moon in Aries has more difficulty doing so. It would seem to imply
> adversaries within one's own nature.
>
> > Typically, I first feel what is right and what not; afterwards I analyze.
> > What you write about your family left me a feeling of doubt. After
> > thinking a bit about it, the following things started to disturb me:
> >
> > - The words "cool" and "distant" are not things that I would attribute
> > to Capricorn. Structured, hierarchical, forcing to decide, yes, but
> > never without having some hidden fun in doing so and never without
> > adapting to other's needs during that process.
> >
> The Giddy Goat, as one of my tutors referred to it?
> Of course Moon in Capricorn (as in the sign and not as reflection of any
> particular person) can adapt to other's needs but, imho, it will do it
> through its rock solid strong sense of (parental) duty, responsibility and,
> in some cases, obligation to others to provide a roof over the head, food in
> the stomach, clothes on the back and protection from the cold. It cannot
> provide warmth of feeling because Capricorn is not a feeling sign. That's
> why it's at loggerehads with the fire signs, which are natural square,
> quincunx, and semi-sextile from it and have to work very hard to provide
> enough heat to fry the egg on its surface.
>
> > - Taurus, on the other hand, seems to me often to be insensitive to
> > others feelings, because his world view is so much based on what he
> > can immediately see and touch, not from any bad intention.
> >
> I'll try to be objective here :-)
> I think it was Linda Goodman who wrote that Taurus is the most 'giving' of
> the signs. Admittedly Taurus is a receptive sign, as are all the Earth/Water
> signs, but it will show that it cares through tangibility and touch. It will
> want to touch you in some way, treat you to a meal, or will bring a present
> to express its feelings. If,as a Fire sign, one expects passion of action,
> or as an Air sign, words to carry meaning or, as a Water sign, emotions to
> carry weight, they will be short-changed by and with Taurus. The passion of
> action in "I love you' and 'Sorry' ARE only actions or words, and emotions
> are based on feelings and not fact. None mean anything to Taurus without
> some tangible evidence that it is so, by way of a kiss, flowers, or a few
> tears :-). This doesn't make Taurus insensitive. It is an Earth sign; it's
> its nature.
> Doesn't astrology teach that you may never condone a person's natural nature
> because it may not be the same as yours....and vice cersa?
>
> - Some things that I would see with your moon in Capricorn towards
> > your mother, would be to try (maybe unsuccessfully) to create some
> > structures, something reliable, to try to force some decisions from
> > the mother, to try to plan ahead.
>
> Why would Moon in Capricorn want ' to force some decisions from the mother
> to try to plan ahead.' ? That sounds very much like Aries talking.
>
> > - A mother with the moon in Taurus would rather change her attitude
> > towards you quickly,
>
> I think we have been reading different astrology books. Moon in Taurus is
> the most well-placed, offering the most reliable and stable of attitudes
> (depending upon aspects to it) for the otherwise natural but changeable
> feelings inherent in the Moon's nature.
>
> just going by what feels right at a given
> > moment, without much consistence or structure that one could
> > rely on, and there might be a lack to understand when the child
> > does not feel well even if all visible and touchable factors have
> > been taken care of.
>
> You are expecting that of a sign which it cannot provide. Aspects of nature
> to the sign from other signs will or will not provide that which is not part
> of its own nature. E.G. I have very little water in my chart, so it is wrong
> to say that I am insensitive to your pain if I cannot ' feel' it with you,
> whilst I rush to the band-aid box to provide the aspirin, ointment and
> adhesive plaster that might physically help to take it away.
>
> > - For all I know, Pisces is almost never wrong about judging other
> > people. So, without any additional information, I would take your
> > sister's statement for real (sorry, but that is how it feels to me),
> > showing that your sister understands and forgives your mother,
> > exactly because she (your sister) has her moon in Pisces.
> >
>
> Pisces is the sign that can 'forgive all', so this would imply that ONLY
> through the eyes of Pisces, the
> (m)other has done something that needs to be forgiven by the child. Yet, the
> (m)other may have been acting out of a million different good reasons that
> the Moon in Pisces does not see because it responds only through sensitivity
> of feeling and not fact of/or reality( which Saturn in Pisces can provide,
> of course). In my examples, both people, in adulthood, were able to reflect
> upon and empathise with the actions of the(m)other. They may have 'felt'
> lost, abandoned, unseen, or whatever, but this does not make it so. Maybe
> there is need for Moon in Pisces to forgive its own feelings towards the
> (m)other ?
>
> > I do not want to force things being in a specific way, but I am also
> > pressing for nature to decide,
>
> I have always used the interaction between the forces of nature as a way to
> work with horoscope charts myself.
>
> that is what a physicist does. That
> > is very similar to Capricorn (compared to Aquarius who sometimes tends
> > to force his view of the world).
>
> As a sign, Aquarius 'knows' from within. It will not use force to express
> its views; it may simply go its own way, rather than along with all the
> views of the other 11 signs.
>
> I will also look at things from your
> > point of view, but tell me, how does what I wrote feel to fit ?
>
> I hope I've answered that, but I also have an inkling that you might be
> looking at astrology through subjective rather than objective eyes.
> There are so many different ways to translate astro. symbolism. Mine is
> basically from an Earth/Air point of view :-)
> Christine.
>
> > Alain Stalder
In physics, questions can be decided by asking nature.
Except when it comes to how to find out or judge new things
initially, in physics, there are no different schools of
thought or even only individual opinions who argue
about who is right. It cannot be proven that physics really
describes only "objective reality" (and not also partially
merely a consensus between physicists), but physics is
very probably the science where this is least likely.
There are things that you wrote with which I agree
and others with which I disagree, and some things
seem to be misunderstandings from your side and
others are probably misunderstandings from mine.
In mythology, Zeus and Hera appear to have a lot of fun
to argue incessantly about all kinds of issues.
This appears not to be what I like to do for a long time,
so let me just mention two things where I think you
might be quite a bit wrong (at least from where I am
standing):
Aries is the first Fire sign. According to my first post
titled "Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac",
he is mainly made of Earth. He also comes directly
after Pisces in the Zodiac, so he has the whole world
with all its possibilities behind him and under his feet.
Aries always argues based on immediate touchable
reality around him, i.e. based on Earth.
Aquarius will very well use force if he feels that someone
has betrayed his ideas. Take a look at how the two most
idealistic (and least realistic) forms of government of the
20th century, namely communism and fascism, treated people
who did not fit into the vision. I am well aware that there
is lots of good stuff in Aquarius and in his idealism, like
there is in every sign, but also every sign has its shadows
and since we are heading for Aquarius we should be well
aware of them. See also:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
In article <a30c0b10.0209160756.666eacfb@posting.google.com>,
kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:
> 10 Things your Astrologer will never Know
> (C) 2001 Klaudio Zic tarant8l@users.tmok.com
>
> In this short manifest we will discuss the basic things your
> astrologer did not know. You know it by now so pass it on!
>
> 1
> MOON
> The Moon is the first to suffer miscalculation. The precise
> position of the Moon (topocentric) saves the directional
> astrologer roughly from half to one-and-a-half year of mistake
> in whatever calculus involving arcs he saw you marriage.
> When the Moon is in the Sextant constellation, it is not
> in Cancer or in Leo, so both the vedic and the tropical
> neighbor clearly suck. http://puck.dhs.org/aca/alumni/franz
>
> 2
> SUN
> Since my Sun is conjunct Antares in Scorpio, I'm a sun-scorpio
> born Nov 28th 1957. If that's not clear, sorry pals. You must
> roughly substract 23 days from your birth to know what sun
> sign you _really_ are. Good news: tropical astrology persists
> in most lower areas and you will get a tropical horoscope
> when you order one. I'm a sag; O.K.? http://puck.dhs.org/aca/catedre
[...]
I cannot exclude that different astrological systems work too,
but let me tell you for comparison how this looks from the point of
view of tropical geocentric astrology, and assuming that
astrology is mostly a psychological thing rather than directly
related to planets and stars.
In my view of Sagittarius, he represents psychologically the last
stage of a burning fire (see recent thread "Archetypes for the
Elements and the Zodiac"). This gives him a lot of overview,
which gives him a good (although somewhat superficial) overview
of how things are and also how they could be if only some people
would adapt a bit. With broad outlook into space, and assuming
that astrology is actually connected to planets and stars, I
assume that Sagittarius is likely to conclude that one should use
topocentric positions and not geocentric ones (especially for the
moon where the difference is greatest), and to use the actual
positions of constellations in order to determine star signs.
Scorpio, in contrast, as a water sign, would, in my view, rather
base his descisions on psychological reality, by examining
closely how people are and whether there are connections between
how they are and what different systems of astrology predict.
Your web site appears to show to me (among other things)
Sagittarius' interest (also as a mutable sign) in different and
unconnected visual images. Sure, it is black, but that alone does
not make Scorpio. I did not look at your birth chart (in
tropical, geocentric astrology), so maybe there would be some
indications of Scorpio or Pluto aspects in it, but it does not
feel very much like it to me. (I am very hesitant to look at
other people's charts unless they ask me specifically about it).
The openness of Sagittarius is another point, which would fit
(again in tropical, geocentric astrology) with the fact that you
gave the public your birth date without anybody asking for it.
Do you use different properties for Scorpio and Sagittarius than
what tropical astrology uses ? Or do you maybe not use
constellations as a whole at all, but rather the individual
stars ?
One more thing about tropical astrology: The detachment from
actual constellations became clear already before precession made
a significant difference. Already when the Greeks divided the
zodiac into twelve signs of equal length, astrology was
abstracted to some degree from the actual stars. (Note that in my
view all of this does not explicitly exclude direct influence
from planets and stars, but it would have to be less direct or
least less obvious).
I also took a quick look on the web and books about the mythology
of Antares. It appears that it's name comes from Ant-Ares, the
rival of Ares (Mars), because its brightness and red color are
similar to Mars, and also that it is placed at the heart of
Scorpio. In that sense, this reminds me of how in ancient times
the constellation of Scorpio included Libra, only during the age
of Aries, the sign of Aries (which is associated with Mars) got a
true opposite, namely Libra (Scorpio had already been the
opposite of Taurus). More abstractly, for me it appears also to
be that the separation of things into two things is similar to
the greek invention of logic where there is yes and no and also
more deeply to what happens during birth, where the unity of
mother and child becomes two.
There appear also to be even older connections that connect
Scorpio/Libra with Sagittarius (if I am not mistaken, the oldest
cultures only knew first one and then two or three huge
constellations on the sky, only later in history they fell apart
into smaller ones). Zeus, the god associated with Sagittarius, is
often connected with eagles that execute various tasks for him.
Now, the eagle or dragon used to be the same as Scorpio, if I am
not completely mistaken; at least there are several Sphinx
statues from the Age of Taurus that show eagle/dragon wings
combined with human faces (Aquarius) and elements of Taurus and
Leo, thus symbolizing the cardinal cross (the four points of the
compass) of that time.
Recently, Ray Murphy replied to a comment that I made about the
limitedness of Aquarius (where Uranus is now, representing the
conscious collective mind, in my view) that I would think
differently about that in the future and should search
groups.google.com then. I guess he will be right in his sense, as
lots of people are pushing lots of ideas, the only "problem"
appears to be to me that nobody is listening much (except in the
sense of rather superficially comparing things to their view).
But, of course, if people were listening more, they would produce
less, so I do not object in the end...
Alain Stalder
In article <am9jke$dh5$1@reader12.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-A2FBF1.16311617092002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> > In mythology, Zeus and Hera appear to have a lot of fun
> > to argue incessantly about all kinds of issues.
>
> Man and Woman do the same :-).
>
> > This appears not to be what I like to do for a long time,
> > so let me just mention two things where I think you
> > might be quite a bit wrong (at least from where I am
> > standing):
> >
> And *this*, Alain, is my difficulty where the astrological teachings are
> concerned. " You are, or might be, wrong" is one of the astrological
> challenges I have to meet which stings the eyes whilst it makes the hairs at
> the back of my Taurean neck stand on end. I put it down to the Lilith/CH/ASC
> trine Sun but square aspect to MC/UR :-)
> I wish the many experienced astrological contributors to this NG would be as
> candid as you and tell me where, how, and why I am wrong, and where/how/and
> why they are right, so that I can change my perspective.
>
> A very respected ex-AAM poster said that an astrologer can interpret a chart
> only at the level (s)he her/himself has reached. My level 'is', if you can
> belive it, trying to bring together spirit/mind/body and soul as one.
Opposites and what unites them is a difficult issue. There appear
to be at least two drives, namely to unite and to take apart. It
appears to me that Zeus and Hera, and often men and women in
general, often prefer to avoid agreing on a common standpoint (at
least about some selected issues), because they like to argue
about things over and over again, as some kind of game. If they
would agree on too many things, they would lose their toys;
without disagreement, there is no need to talk. On the other
hand, some issues (or maybe all if you exclude some concrete
decisions and look at general questions only), can probably not
be decided at all in general terms, it is only so that reality
sometimes demands an answer.
In that sense, if one says something about a sign, and then
thinks deeper, one typically finds that also the contrary has
lots of justification, although one can maybe still be somewhat
specific about in which conditions which side will more likely
show.
In that sense, I also widely agree with what you said about Aries
further below in your post, and what you said about Aquarius is,
from my point of view, also part of the picture, but appears to
be too biased to stand on its own, without what I said and other
things - but, to some degree, this is always true. In that sense
what I wrote about Aquarius in my post was certainly also biased,
in order to make the point. Maybe the only somewhat universal
truths have the word "not" in them.
This brings me to the early Greek philosophers like Heraclitus
and also to Lao-Tse (who lived around the same time). Unlike
Aristotle, Plato, etc. the units are not fully decomposed in the
older writings, there is no fully developed logic yet. Heraclitus
and Lao-Tse often mention something and its opposite in the same
sentence and often use sentences with a "not" in it.
Some examples:
- Everything rests by changing (Heraclitus)
- Night and day, which Hesiod had made parent and child, are,
and must always have been, essentially connected and
interdependent (Heraclitus)
- The path up and down is one and the same (Heraclitus)
- The name that can be named is not the enduring and
unchanging name (Lao-Tse)
Alain Stalder
It appears that it is often said that Pisces come short, because
they do not fight for attention. So, tonite I searched
alt.astrology.moderated at groups.google.com for all twelve star
signs in order to see if that is measurably so. In other words, I
searched first for the keyword "Aries", then for "Taurus", etc.
Here are the results:
Sign # of hits deviation from mean
Aries: ca. 3100 +5 %
Taurus: ca. 3210 +8 %
Gemini: ca. 2940 -8 %
Cancer: ca. 3110 +5 %
Leo: ca. 3580 +21%
Virgo: ca. 3250 +10%
Libra: ca. 2970 +0 %
Scorpio: ca. 3870 +31%
Sagittarius: ca. 1590 -46% <==
Capricorn: ca. 2190 -26%
Aquarius: ca. 2910 -0 %
Pisces: ca. 2830 -4 %
(average: ca. 2962)
The lowest number of hits is for Sagittarius, whereas Pisces come
out rather average. Maybe the sample is too small; so I searched
first alt.astrology and then the whole web, with the following
results:
alt.astrology:
Aries: ca. 14000 +0 %
Taurus: ca. 16500 +18%
Gemini: ca. 15200 +9 %
Cancer: ca. 15300 +10%
Leo: ca. 15000 +7 %
Virgo: ca. 13900 -0 %
Libra: ca. 13000 -7 %
Scorpio: ca. 17100 +22%
Sagittarius: ca. 7400 -47% <==
Capricorn: ca. 11300 -19%
Aquarius: ca. 12300 -12%
Pisces: ca. 16600 +19%
(average: ca. 167'600)
web (google):
Aries: ca. 114'000 -7 %
Taurus: ca. 118'000 -3 %
Gemini: ca. 115'000 -6 %
Cancer: ca. 202'000 +65%
Leo: ca. 146'000 +20%
Virgo: ca. 105'000 -14%
Libra: ca. 114'000 -7 %
Scorpio: ca. 124'000 +2 %
Sagittarius: ca. 95'700 -22% <==
Capricorn: ca. 105'000 -14%
Aquarius: ca. 121'000 -1 %
Pisces: ca. 106'000 -13%
(average: ca. 122'000)
On the web, I searched using www.google.com for english pages
that contained, say, "Aries" plus the word "astrology". The high
number of hits for Cancer is probably still related to the
disease with the same name, but I did not check this in detail.
Sagittarius has the lowest number of hits in all three cases. Any
ideas why that might be ? Are there other words for Sagittarius
that are also common ? (I tried the same web search for
"Sagittarian" and "astrology" and only got 2660 hits). Or is
there a deeper reason behind this ?
I know this not exactly serious research, but it was still fun
to do.
Alain Stalder
While I am at it, here are also the search results for planets at
alt.astrology.moderated (there might again be a tendency that
the "bad guys" appear more often):
Sun: 14500
Moon: 10200
Mercury: 5530
Venus: 6120
Mars: 6980
Jupiter: 5280
Saturn: 7990 <==
Uranus: 5920
Neptune: 5280
Pluto: 7030 <==
Chiron: 2020
In article <NE7i9.348255$v53.17104355@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>,
Empedocles <empedocles@paratwa.net> wrote:
[...]
>
> As for the Sagittarius matter, I have two possible explanations:
>
> 1) We're too busy telling everyone else what to think to talk much about
> ourselves. :)
> 2) It's the easiest sign to misspell. Did you try searching for
> "saggittarius" or "saggitarius"?
>
> ....and as for the number of references by plaent, personally I'm surprised
> Uranus didn't get more mention.
>
About 2), I searched again in alt.astrology.moderated and the web:
alt.astrology.moderated:
Sagitarius: 62
Saggitarius: 119
Saggittarius: 7
Sagittarius: 1600
Sagitarian: 2
Saggitarian: 3
Saggittarian: 0
Sagittarian: 300
Total: 2093 (-29%)
web:
Sagitarius: 951
Saggitarius: 1680
Saggittarius: 96
Sagittarius: 88'000
Sagitarian: 52
Saggitarian: 65
Saggittarian: 6
Sagittarian: 2610
Total: 93'500
(I appears that google.com has thrown out some data since
the last search).
I was also expecting Uranus to be mentioned more often.
About 1), maybe a survey of which signs posts would also
be interesting, but is also already a lot harder to do.
Alain Stalder
In article <3d89220c_2@news.chariot.net.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
[...]
>
> RM: Very interesting. It's one more thing we can keep an eye on;
> although if we pursued this, it might be less biased if we selected
> only original mentioning of each Sign in each post - rather than
> counting reposted text.
> Any such manual counting would also pick up erroneous spelling and
> abbreviations.
>
> Ray
>
I agree, although the groups.google.com search machine is already
partially removing replies that are similar to the original post.
Alain Stalder
In article <astalder-2E3107.08303518092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
[...]
> I did not look at your birth chart (in
> tropical, geocentric astrology), so maybe there would be some
> indications of Scorpio or Pluto aspects in it, but it does not
> feel very much like it to me. (I am very hesitant to look at
> other people's charts unless they ask me specifically about it).
[...]
I took a lot at it, and I saw a sun-Pluto square, and ...
Mars in Scorio, bringing Ares and Scorpio together in
another way. Always amazing how different methods can
lead to very similar results; there appear often to be
more and deeper structures in the world than one would
expect...
I will take a look at where planets where relative to
the actual stars on the sky when I was born.
Thanks!
Alain Stalder
In article <astalder-1B6801.07004519092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <3d89220c_2@news.chariot.net.au>,
> "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
>
> [...]
> >
> > RM: Very interesting. It's one more thing we can keep an eye on;
> > although if we pursued this, it might be less biased if we selected
> > only original mentioning of each Sign in each post - rather than
> > counting reposted text.
> > Any such manual counting would also pick up erroneous spelling and
> > abbreviations.
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
> I agree, although the groups.google.com search machine is already
> partially removing replies that are similar to the original post.
>
> Alain Stalder
>
Sorry, what I wrote is not true. Only the listed posts are filtered,
but the number of found hits that google shows includes the
filtered posts too.
Alain Stalder
In article <20020919090408.10592.00006666@mb-cu.aol.com>,
threesteve@aol.comno-spam (ThreeSteve) wrote:
> Very surprising to me since I once read that the software upon which the WWW
> is
> built was released on the internet (yes, there is/was an internet before
> html)
> on a date that would make the Web itself Sagittarian (sorry, I did not keep
> the
> date in my databank).
>
Maybe it would really not be a bad idea to use the internet
itself as a unit to test some predictions about star signs and
what they apply to; at least there is the adavantage of having
the largest possible amount of data in computer-ready form.
> At the risk of setting certain people off, perhaps it is because we Sags tend
> not to be "joiners" but are instead very independent. We care more about our
> own ideas, studies, beliefs, than we do about the regard of others. You
> don't
> see as much crowing about the greatness of one's sign as you do with signs
> like.....we'll, I don't need the flames in my in box, so I'll just leave that
> one alone and let the Alain's data speak for itself.
>
I think Sagittarius is quite interested in the world, in watching
all kinds of things, it is only so that there are so many
intersting things that one can look at and think about so that
the individual things lose some of their specialty and interest.
I guess this is somewhat similar to how the other sign associated
with Jupiter, namely Pisces, sees the world.
> (Alain, are you confident of your google search? Might Cancer's +65 be
> skewed
> by hits to the disease?)
>
I suspected that already in my original post. Hard to tell
without looking at things in detail. A modified search of the web
for Cancer+astrology+therapy yielded 39'000 hits, which hints
into the direction that most of the skew might really be due to
the disease.
> What I thought was too cute was the AAMOD result with Libra perfectly
> "balanced" with a standard deviation of 0.
>
That is something that I did not notice. Thanks for pointing out.
*Really nice, especially since that is something that cannot be
catched for sure by science.*
Alain Stalder
In article <a30c0b10.0209190940.47e876bf@posting.google.com>,
kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:<astalder-2E3107.08303518092002@news.bluewin.ch>...
> > In article <a30c0b10.0209160756.666eacfb@posting.google.com>,
> > kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:
> >
>
> Roughly transcending signs and heading towards astronomy;)
>
>
> Compliments, Claudio
>
> http://207.88.74.110/pucklist
[...]
In article <a30c0b10.0209190935.668df58b@posting.google.com>,
kaxanova@sdf.lonestar.org (Kaxanova Zakomo) wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:<astalder-046388.11030714092002@news.bluewin.ch>...
> > In this post I would like to focus on just one of the many things
> > that planets influence
>
> It's not the planets but the inorganic beings roughly connected
> SOMETIMES NOT AT ALL! with the planets
>
>
> in a birth chart, although it may be an
> > important one. As far as I can see, it is widely compatible with
> > current views of the planets, only a little bit more specific.
> > But let me get concrete: The idea is simply that planets
> > influence the relations to family members that are commonly
>
> mc and ic rulers
>
> and their directions
>
> > associated with the corresponding planet.
> >
> > Here are the hypotheses one after the other:
> >
> > a) The moon
>
> is most important since amjikally linked to true mind
>
> influences how children like to behave towards their
> > mother. In other words, the sign in which the moon is in the
> > birth chart of a child,
>
> the ruler of I.C.
>
>
> influences how it tends to behave towards
> > the mother. Conversely, the sign the moon is in the birth chart
> > of a mother, influences how she tends to behave towards her
> > children.
>
>
> the events are predictable to the minute
>
>
> >
> > b) The influence of the sun is similar: It influences how
> > children behave towards their fathers and how fathers behave
> > towards their children.
> >
>
>
> the sun is rather the devel, hardly the father
>
>
> > c) This relative
>
> behaviour remains the same, even if the children
> > become adults
>
> there is they become crooked
>
> and eventually parents themselves. They will still
> > behave like sun/moon towards their fathers/mothers.
> >
>
>
> the moon makes them original
>
> > d) The relative behaviour also extends beyond physical parents to
> > people who assume a parental role,
>
> parential is something exclusively dedicated to the One who breeds,
> the enemy or Los Voladeros
>
>
>
> like a step father/mother or a
> > teacher.
> >
> > e) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards siblings.
>
> mercury is spy to Sun ,thus not to be entrusted any ...
>
> >
> > f) Mars influences how one likes to behave towards male friends
>
>
> depending on the _one_ house Mars rules
>
> > of roughly the same generation
>
> breed
>
> (unless they are siblings). This
> > specifically includes how one likes to behave towards male
> > lovers.
> >
> > f) Accordingly, Venus influences how one likes to behave towards
> > female friends of roughly the same generation (unless they are
> > siblings). This specifically includes how one likes to behave
> > towards female lovers.
>
> That's new age astrology. True astrology is nothing like this,
> really.
>
> >
> > g) Mercury influences how one likes to behave towards people
> > fighting for the same lover.
>
> lover?
>
> (I say this because siblings also
> > fight for the love of their parents). In other words, if, say,
> > two men who are friends fall in love with the same woman, they
> > will typically start to behave in a different way towards each
> > other.
> >
> > Now, of course, I am aware that a lot more things influence
>
> many inorganic beings override any astrological influence at this
> moment
>
>
> astrology is no joke
>
> or yoke;)
[...]
In article <astalder-7F286C.20120719092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <astalder-2E3107.08303518092002@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > I did not look at your birth chart (in
> > tropical, geocentric astrology), so maybe there would be some
> > indications of Scorpio or Pluto aspects in it, but it does not
> > feel very much like it to me. (I am very hesitant to look at
> > other people's charts unless they ask me specifically about it).
>
> [...]
>
> I took a lot at it, and I saw a sun-Pluto square, and ...
> Mars in Scorio, bringing Ares and Scorpio together in
> another way. Always amazing how different methods can
> lead to very similar results; there appear often to be
> more and deeper structures in the world than one would
> expect...
>
> I will take a look at where planets where relative to
> the actual stars on the sky when I was born.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Alain Stalder
Mars in Scorpio.
Sometimes I am too nice.
End of communication.
Alain Stalder
Rapid Communication - Axes and Opposites
Alain Stalder, 27 September 2002
Abstract
The opposites wet/dry of the elements are identified with in/out.
Since the six axes of the zodiac form wet/dry pairs, it is argued
that, in each case, the opposite signs focus on common themes,
but the wet sign focusses on the inside and the dry sign on the
outside. This text builds up on [1].
1. wet/dry = in/out
The outside world is most directly experienced by what is seen
(fire) and touched (earth). Mind (air) and feelings (water) are
inside. In quantum mechanics, between measurements (reality), the
possibilities of what may be seen in the next experiment evolve
in waves (water) that are mathematically formulated (logical,
abstract, air). Hence the two wet elements, air and water, are
associated with inside or self, whereas the two dry elements,
fire and earth, are associated with outside or world. In nature,
things are often drier on the outside than in the inside,
especially organic things, like, for example, bodies of people
and animals or fruits and vegetables.
2. Axes and Opposites
The six axes of the zodiac all have pairs of dry/wet elements
opposing each other. The hypothesis, backed by psychological
experience, is that each sign has the same amount of energy, but
invests it either towards the inside or towards the outside.
In the following, I will try to quickly describe the concrete
drives of the six axes. Note that this will describe the initial
drive, and that consequently this will trigger counterreactions
from other people, which, in turn, can lead to the opposite
behaviour, so that people will in reality oscillate to some
degree between the proposed opposites. The actual opposites are
essentially taken from [1].
2a. Virgo/Pisces (dry/wet)
Virgo is sorting the outside world, is actively doing some
sorting (even if done in the mind, then it is later at least
written down; i.e. the goal is in reality). Pisces do actively
little in the outside world, but in their minds, they quickly
recognize situations and how people behave, i.e. they compare
current situations with previous ones and hence sort people and
situations into some categories in their minds.
Virgo tries to create order on the outside, but in the inside
often gets quickly into a disordered state of mind, filled with
many details to sort out. Pisces see things typically very
clearly, but their outside lives can be quite chaotic. This also
fits with how the two signs relate to drugs: Virgo avoids them in
order to gain clarity in her mind; Pisces are happy to have
something that allows them to escape the clarity inside.
2b. Leo/Aquarius (dry/wet)
Leo appears egoistic in the outside world, not ready for much
compromise and also rather conservative when it comes to changing
things in the outside world, at least as far as daily life would
be affected. Aquarius is altruistic towards others in the outside
world and also progressive, wants things to evolve constantly in
the world. In the inside, things are reversed. Aquarius
compromises quite a bit to find a goal for outside progress with
which everybody will agree. Consequently, the goal is something
which is not very progressive or new, since then people would
tend to disagree. This makes Aquarius mentally rather
conservative. The egoism comes about because Aquarius dares to
define, as an individual, what others should then realize. Even
though he compromises a lot on the goal, this is still being
egoistic in the inside. Leo, in turn, has quite a free mind and
tries to find out special solutions that, if realized, would be a
lot better than current reality, at the expense of being much
harder to promote on the outside.
2c. Capricorn/Cancer (dry/wet)
Capricorn is very well structured on the outside, both in space
and time (planing). But inside, he typically follows several
plans, in order to force decisions. That duality requires quite a
bit of complexity in the head, as there are more possibilities
that could happen than that will happen outside in reality.
Cancer, in turn, tends to lean on emotionally to structures that
protect him, i.e. he adheres psychologically, inside to structures
and ways of thinking that are simple and structured. This, in
turn, allows him to create complex things in the outside world,
exactly because his thinking is so simple.
2d. Sagittarius/Gemini (dry/wet)
Sagittarius has a great overview of how the outside world is. He
spends lots of time in order to explore many things he can see
and is always an interested observer of what others do. Gemini,
in turn, like to learn a lot from books, they try to get a good
overview of what has been going on in people's minds. Sagittarius
plans little about what to do when in the outside world, but
spends a lot of time about planning what to say and about the
few, crucial, things that he will keep to himself. Gemini make
concrete plans what to do when in reality, but in their minds,
they tend to wander off quickly to different interesting topics,
what Sagittarius does rather in reality.
2e. Taurus/Scorpio (dry/wet)
Taurus tries to find out how things really are in reality, he
likes to actually look at things and touch them. He also likes to
make things in reality, on the outside, beautiful and harmonic.
Scorpio, on the other hand, likes to go to the bottom of things
psychologically, also with the intent to remove things that are
not harmonic in people's psyches, in order also to increase
harmony and beauty, but in the inside.
Scorpio tries to get others to do things in the direction he
wants in reality, but psychologically goes deep himself. Taurus
is doing things in the outside world by himself, but is also
hesitant to go deep psychologically.
2f. Aries/Libra (dry/wet)
Aries tries to break up existing unfair structures in the outside
world. In the outside world, he argues by reality, by mentioning
directly observable and touchable facts. Science is based on hard
facts. But the mathematical formulas that describe science, the
thinking inside science is very abstract. Libra, in turn, is
publicly arguing with quite abstract arguments, with that some
things should be balanced, symmetric, should have some abstract
beauty. But, from the inside, that is based on some very direct
and concrete observations of how the world is.
Concluding Remarks
The idea that opposite signs of the zodiac focus in/out,
respectively, came to me this morning, when I was still half
asleep. Since this is a very rapid communication, I may have
assigned some opposites the wrong way round. Moreover, the sun is
currently in Libra, so things have probably not been thought
through to the end. However, by communicating this, I am also
potentially allowing more people to do that, hence publishing in
this form makes sense (note that this was a Libra-style
argument:).
Modern particle physics shows a large influence from Aries (which
is probably at least partially because modern science has largely
been created by scientists of Jewish origin, with Jewish religion
being from the age of Aries). I think that psychology can be done
the same way, by having symmetry groups and spontaneous symmetry
breaking to get from dry/wet and hot/cold via the zodiac to
various myths and (cultural) reality. In addition, the study of
different cultures, like Chinese and Indian, might shed some
interesting new light on what is culture and what is more
universal.
Acknowledgements
I would like to thank Werner Held for some discussions by e-mail
and for the texts he wrote [2]. I think it was through that
interaction that I got the idea that in/out can be identified
with wet/dry. Furthermore, some discussions on newsgroups,
especially on alt.astrology.moderated, have probably helped me to
get to the idea presented here, although this process was very
probably not conscious to me nor to the other participants -
thanks in any case!
References
[1] Alain Stalder. A few new discoveries in physics.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
[2] Werner Held. Die 1 und die 2. [and more texts].
http://people.freenet.de/soleil7
[3] Franz Kafka. Das Schweigen der Sirenen.
--
Alain Stalder
mailto:astalder@exactphilosophy.net
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
On 2002-06-17 Stephen Speicher (sjs@compbio.caltech.edu) wrote:
> In the interest of finally putting this issue to rest, I would
> like to draw attention to the fact that on September 8 of this
> year Jupiter will be at an angular distance of about 3'.7 from
> quasar QSO J0842+1835. In a paper last year ("Testing the
> relativistic effect of the propagation of gravity by very long
> baseline interferometry," _Astrophysical Journal_, 556 (1): L1-L5
> Part 2 Jul 20 2001.) Sergei Kopeikin has made an interesting and
> somewhat unique proposal for an experiment in which to measure
> the propagation "speed of gravity", using differential very long
> baseline interferometry on the celestial configuration I
> indicated above.
>
> I have been in touch with Sergei Kopeikin, and indeed the
> experiment will be performed on September 8th, and it is now less
> than three months away. [snip]
Any information about whether the experiment could be performed ?
Alain Stalder
Quaoar is a newly discovered object that orbits the sun
and is about half the diameter of Pluto, making it the
biggest such object discovered since Pluto in 1930.
Link from where I took most of the following information:
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar/
- diameter: about 1250 km
- mass bigger than all numbered asteroids together
- almost cirular orbit, mostly farther away from the
sun than Pluto, but not always
- takes 285 years to circle the sun
- discovered June 4th 2002 at the Palomar Observatory
- current position (time UTC, RA hrs, decl deg):
2002-Oct-08 00:00 16 35 51.68 -15 00 00.3
- if convert that correctly, that gives
a longitude of about 250 degrees (10 deg Sagittarius)
and a latitude of about 7 degrees
- The name "Quaoar" is the proposal of the discoverers
to the International Astronomical Union, i.e. the
name is not official yet
- About the origin of the name:
"The object has been named "Quaoar" (pronounced KWAH-o-ar)
after the creation force of the Tongva tribe who were the
original inhabitants of the Los Angeles basin, where the
Caltech campus is located."
(this was from the press release:
http://pr.caltech.edu/media/Press_Releases/PR12296.html )
and this is from the link on top:
"'Quaoar' the great force of creation sings and dances
the high ones (Dieties) into existence. While Quaoar
has no form or gender he is usually referred to with
the male pronoun"
(sounds fairly close to Amun/Aries/Zeus/Jove to me)
- Interestingly, comparisons with older photographs revealed
Quaoar now already in photos from 1982 by Charles Kowal,
relating this new discovery also to the discovery
of Chiron by Charles Kowal in 1977 and to the Saturn-Pluto
cycle (conjunction in 1982, opposition this and last year).
Alain Stalder
In article <ao0mdk$rm3$1@rex.ip-plus.net>,
Alois Treindl <firstname@lastname.com> wrote:
[...]
> Please be aware hat the name is not official yet.
> In an unusal step, the discoverers of 2002 LM60 have "named" it before
> the object was numbered by the IAU. The normal process is that an object
> receives a number, a few weeks after a stable orbit has been computed,
> and then the discoverer(s) have the right to propose a name.
>
> It can be assume however, that this process will be fairly quick, and
> the name will remain and become official within two months.
>
> On each full moon, a list of newly assigned numbers and names is publised.
How lightly should a name for a new object be chosen ?
If I look back at the recent Saturn-Pluto oppositions, the name
chosen for Pluto had quite some impact on the fate of the world.
And, yet, the name is arguably at least partially due to the fact
that its discoverer, Percival Lowell, has the initials P.L. which
are the first two letters of the word "Pluto" and became one
symbol for writing Pluto as a merged "PL".
Of course, there are certainly deeper reasons why that discoverer
had the name "Percival Lowell" (his parent's wishes for the child
influencing the first name, the family history for the last name,
and lots more indirect influences on both). So the choice of the
name Pluto was not necessarily hubris, even though Pluto got its
name much more easily and clearly than Neptune before him. This
too can probably be related already to the different natures of
the planets.
So, when does a planet start to influence human lifes ?
Here are some principal variants, starting with the most
conservative one:
a) After it got its official name
b) After its discovery
c) After it would have been possible in principle to discover it,
either because it was on more than one photographic plate
(so that its movement could have been detected in principle)
or after its orbit could be predicted from deviations in
the orbits of existing planets. (Neptune, for example, appears
to have been sighted already in 1612 by Galilei who was
observing Jupiter's moons at a time when Jupiter was in
conjunction with Neptune (Drake+Kowal, Sci Am 243, 1980);
that was more than 200 years before the official discovery
of Neptune in 1846 and only shortly after the invention
of the telescope).
d) Always (independently of the discovery)
This is difficult to decide for sure without exact scientific
methods available to astrology yet, but it appears that a) and b)
can probably be excluded due to the history of discoveries of
previous planets and other objects.
If d) is correct, chosing the "right name" is something that has
probably relatively little influence on what the planet will
astrologically influence. However, if c) is correct, the human
choice of the name is probably important, at least in the sense
of a *collective* human decision.
So, in the latter case, a name should not be chosen lightly, or
at least not be accepted lightly, except if the object is of
minor importance. Of course, that process does not necessarily
have to be conscious to individuals.
Any thoughts ?
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: Is the fact that new names are normally published around new
moon because then astronomical observations are more difficult
and astronomers have time to look at the new names or are there
other reasons (besides the obvious psychological ones) ?
In article <uqb6ohbtuijte6@news.supernews.com>,
"John Roth" <johnroth@ameritech.net> wrote:
[...]
> > PS: Is the fact that new names are normally published around new
> > moon because then astronomical observations are more difficult
> > and astronomers have time to look at the new names or are there
> > other reasons (besides the obvious psychological ones) ?
>
> Actually, astrolomical observations are easier: you don't have the
> light of the Moon to contend with. I have no idea why they are
> published then, other than the wish to have some easily observable
> astronomical phenomenon, which a new moon fits quite nicely.
>
> JR.
Sorry, I meant to write full moon, of course (as Alois Treindl wrote
correctly; see http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/services/MPC.html ).
I wonder if that tradition will be upheld once there are more space
telescopes (there is very little stray light in space). ;)
Alain Stalder
In article <g95dquspcjjh3g8mvg1p1aba5u69l9mpn2@4ax.com>,
Chris Mitchell <chrismitchell@zaalberg.freeserve.nospam> wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2002 18:35:03 GMT, Chelsea Polk <bogus@email.com> wrote: in
> message ID <IEjp9.487864$v53.20677224@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>
>
>
> >Quaoar Their only god who "came down from heaven; and, after reducing chaos
> >to order, out the world on the back of seven giants. He then created the
> >lower animals," and then mankind. Los Angeles County Indians, California.
> >
> >is there anything else? any observations on the energies?
> >
> Anything else?? Come on Chelsea - reducing chaos to order then
> creating animals and mankind isn't bad going! ;-)
>
> Maybe the "chaos to order" bit gives it something of a Virgo flavour?
>
> Chris.
Maybe. Incidentally, I had just reread the previous weekend the
section about Virgo in Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate".
There she writes the following about Virgo (p. 219; note that this
is technically a review of that book, which gives me the right
to cite the following short passage):
> But I have never been comfortable with Mercury as the sole
> description of the complex web of character that lies in Virgo.
> Perhaps there is another planet waiting to be found which might
> be co-ruler; or perhaps not.
Another obvious association with a planet would be with Earth,
which in a chart would be opposite the zenith, perpendicular
to the earth's surface, under our feet. If I am not mistaken,
that would be the same as the IC (or am I wrong ?).
Since the IC also represents our roots, ancestors, the complex
tree of generations from where each individual is coming from,
that association would have some ring to it, as Virgo is a lot
about sorting complex tree structures in the head and in the
world.
Here is what astronomer Chad Trujillo, the guy who first lay
his eyes on Quaoar, writes about the mythology of Quaoar:
( http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar/ )
> The Tongva people (sometimes called the San Gabrielino Native
> Americans) inhabited the Los Angeles area before the arrival of
> the Spanish and other European people. The name "Quaoar"
> (pronounced kwah-o-wahr) comes from their creation mythology. In
> the words of Mark Acuna, Tongva scholar, dancer and tribal elder:
>
> "'Quaoar' the great force of creation sings and dances the high
> ones (Dieties) into existence. While Quaoar has no form or gender
> he is usually referred to with the male pronoun. He dances and
> sings first 'Weywot' who becomes Sky Father; they sing and dance
> 'Chehooit' Earth Mother into existence. The trio sing 'Tamit'
> Grandfather Sun to life. As each divine one joins the singing and
> dancing, the song becomes more complex and the dance more
> complicated. In turn 'Moar', Grandmother Moon (a very complex
> diety), 'Pamit' the Goddess of the sea, 'Manit', the Lord of
> dreams and visions, 'Manisar' the bringer of food and harvests,
> 'Tukupar Itar' Sky Coyote (who is also our major hero),
> 'Tolmalok', the Goddess of Shishongna (the underworld) join in
> the singing, dancing and creating. And finally the great seven
> giants who hold up the worlds are created. The High Ones in turn
> are aided by 'Eagle, Duck, Bear, and Frog' in a grand earth
> diving story. Frog brings up soil out of the deep dark sea, and
> the four animals dance it flat and wide. The 'Gods and Goddesses'
> then furnish the world 'Tovangar' with hills, mountains, trees,
> rivers, etc. 'Tobohar' (first man) and 'Pahavit' (first woman)
> are also part of this great 'Creation song and dance cycle'."
>
> You can find out more about the Tongva at the Tongva website.
http://www.tongva.com/
As I wrote in a previous post, there are certainly elements of
Aries/Amun/Jahwe/Zeus in that invisible, male creator god.
Here are precise date and time of the discovery
(from the same web site as above):
> The first discovery image was taken at 2002 June 04 05:41:40
> (Universal Time = Greenwich, England) from the Palomar
> Observatory 48-inch Oschin telescope. I identified Quaoar in the
> image at 2002 Jun 04 10:48:08 (Pacific Daylight Time).
Finally, somebody at another newsgroup jokingly proposed the name
"Goofy" instead (because Pluto is also the dog of Mickey Mouse).
I guess any association that someone makes will influence the
meaning of a new object, and I like that one, takes some of the
seriousness out of both Quaoar and Pluto. Maybe Pluto's absolute
influence will dilute during the next few years, when the two
other collective planets will pass through Pisces. The two
researchers who found Quaoar said that they only searched about
5% of the sky yet, so there might be similar objects around,
possibly as big or bigger than Pluto. From a purely scientific
standpoint, Pluto would today be classified as an object of the
Kuiper belt, part of many smaller objects outside the orbit
of Neptune, and probably not as a planet (at least not by
astronomers; psychologically things are probably still
different).
Chad Trujillo writes (same web site):
> It is very likely that there are more big Kuiper Belt Objects
> like Quaoar. We looked at only 5% of the entire sky before
> finding Quaoar. So there could be 20 Quaoars out there and we
> wouldn't have seen them yet. It is also likely that a few Plutos
> are out there waiting to be discovered. We have so far looked
> mostly in the plane of the solar system, where objects are most
> likely to be. It's likely that our discovery rates will go down
> as we get further and further from the solar system plane (the
> ecliptic) but we still expect to find maybe 10 more objects,
> given current models of the Kuiper Belt thickness.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <3DAA90A7.F6273D62@ntlworld.com>,
Roberta Davies <roberta.davies@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Here's a different sort of question for the experts in this group to
> chew over.
>
> I have a book from, I would guess, the 1910s-20s (undated but before the
> discovery of Pluto) in which the uthor sets out a sort of astrologically
> based Tarot-like deck of cards - presumably at the time one could buy
> this deck to go with the book. He has a card for each planet, the
> ascendant, Moon's nodes, etc., and also cards for each sign.
>
> Now, he has three cards for each sign, one for each decanate (cusp, 10
> degrees, and 20 degrees). I suspect he has done this mainly to add more
> cards to the deck so it will be a reasonable size. It also makes a
> difference in some of the card layouts, namely the ones involving
> planetary aspects, obviously.
>
> The author gives a different interpretation for each decanate, but I
> can't see any system he seems to be using to determine these
> differences. The cusp card corresponds with the traditional meaning of
> the sign, but the 10 and 20 degrees cards are all over the place and
> don't necessarily have any relation to the meaning of the sign or each
> other. I suspect that (not to put too fine a point on it) he made them
> up out of whole cloth, basically so that each card in the deck would
> have a different meaning.
>
> As an example:
> Aries (cusp) - Pride, rash action, imprudence, activity, courage... (and
> so on; you know the drill)
> 10 of Aries - Success after sacrifice or great hardship, devoted
> friendship, protection or rescue at a critical moment
> 20 of Aries - Unexpected catastrophe, danger of accidents, insecurity,
> loss or ruin at a critical moment
>
> My question for the experts among us is simple. Is there any
> astrological basis for assigning different meanings, however subtle, to
> the different decanates of a sign? If so, what would the meanings be?
>
> Thanks in advance for any comments and help.
>
> Robbie
>
I am not really an expert on decanates, but here is what I know.
The oldest assignement of decanates is to astronomical
constellations by the Egyptians and is quite old (ca. 2000 BC):
http://www.san.beck.org/Astro-Decs.html
The decanates are beautifully depicted on the famous Dendera
Zodiac, dating from the 1st century BC:
http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterOne/TranslateDenderah.htm
I also found associations of the decanates with star signs
http://www.astarotology.com/decan2.html
and with planets (with or without the collective planets):
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/astro-concepts/dignitydebility.htm
http://www.astarotology.com/decans.html
If you apply decanates to astrological ages and assuming that we
are near the end of the Age of Pisces, we would be in the first
decanate of Pisces (because ages go the other way round) - then
we would be in the decanate of Cepheus. At the first link above,
Sanderson Beck writes:
> Cepheus was the king of Ethiopia whose daughter Andromeda was
> chained to the rocks to appease Poseidon. Cepheus holds a scepter
> from the tree of life, and his foot rests on the pole star as on
> the rock of truth. This double Pisces decanate ruled by Neptune
> (Poseidon) is concerned with truth and illusions. The love of
> Nature and the search for her secrets inevitably leads into the
> spiritual realms where mystics find a deeper reality. The keyword
> is VERITY.
Alain Stalder
In article <386d7a77.0210101452.2513d282@posting.google.com>,
ed@fredkin.com (Ed Fredkin) wrote:
> It is sometimes stated "We cannot measure the position and momentum
> (or the time and energy) of a particle without an uncertainty in the
> product of the two measurements averaging hbar. A better statement is
> "We cannot measure the present position and future momentum".
> Various philosophical statements are bandied about as a consequence of
> the uncertainty principle but many are incorrect as is illustrated by
> a simple Gedanken experiment. Let us imagine a specialized integrated
> circuit that does the following: when a particle, like a Helium atom
> bounces off of the surface, the time and position of the bounce is
> measured and read into a computer. It would be fairly easy to measure
> the position to an accuracy of about 1 micron, and the time to an
> accuracy of about 1 nanosecond. Of course, if we knew the velocity of
> the incoming atom these measurements would result in uncertainty with
> respect to the future velocity of the particle (by about 6 meters per
> second, with uncertain direction). Now let us imagine an evacuated
> sphere, perhaps meters in diameter, where the inside surface is
> completely and seamlessly paved in such integrated circuits. Into
> this vacuum we introduce one Helium atom which continuously bounces
> around, all by itself, inside the sphere. It is obvious that after
> every bounce the computer can compute the position accurately and the
> previous momentum with arbitrary accuracy (depending on the size of
> the sphere). After a while the computer has the whole trajectory to
> very high accuracy; far beyond what the uncertainty principle seems to
> imply. While this is interesting, what is more interesting is the
> time reversed process. In that case the computer starts out with a
> list of accurate positions and momenta for the whole sequence of
> bounces that are yet to occur. I don't want to bore you with the
> details of how the reversible computer eats up the data before the
> measurements are made during the reversed experiment, but
> nevertheless, this Gedanken experiment seems to poke holes in various
> English language stories that people tell each other as to how
> uncertainty works.
>
> Ed F
I think you are implicitly making a classical assumption.
Let me first simplify the setup: Say you have a particle flying
in vacuum and measure its position x1 at t1 and later at t2
a position x2. Now, in classical mechanics, you know that a
free particle is moving at a constant speed on a straight
line. So you could conclude that the velocity of the particle
at t1 (and at t2) was v = (x2-x1)/(t2-t1) and calculate the
momentum p = mv with arbitrary precision.
In quantum mechanics, however, there are no trajectories. All
you have measured so far, is two positions at different times.
Maybe the experimental setup in your Gedankenexperiment is
somewhat misleading in that respect, because the Compton
wavelength of a He atom (mass ca. 4 GeV) is hc/E = ca. 3e-16m,
so it would behave pretty much like a classical object in the
setup you described. You would have to take a lighter particle
and put it into a really small box to see strong quantum effects.
(Imagine maybe a sphere the size of an atom with an electron
inside and repeately measuring where the electron hits the sphere;
there it becomes clear that it is difficult to talk about a
trajectory that exists independently of the observer).
Alain Stalder
In article <6p5lqukfl8qa3odlvaast8tig52hmgf944@4ax.com>,
Chris Mitchell <chrismitchell@zaalberg.freeserve.nospam> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:04:25 CST, drew
> <drew@scorpio518.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: in message ID
> <jwlc1QAvBcq9Ew6m@scorpio518.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >In trying to understand the nature of Fixity I appreciate that it
> >relates to obstinacy, stubbornness, etc, but I am trying to understand a
> >little more about how it affects us and the way we live.
> >
> >Am I correct in assuming that whereas Cardinality 'initiates' things,
> >therefore Fixity develops them?
> >
> Sounds pretty good to me. However, I have been reading a fascinating
> book about Kabbalistic astrology in which the author claims that
> precessional ages (ie the coming of the age of Aquarius) change on a
> basis defined by a very clear formula in Jewish astrology, and that
> the age of Aquarius actually began in 1981.
>
> He also maintains that this means that Cardinal/Fixed/Mutable also
> changed - that the four sacred animals (Lion-Bull-Eagle-Man) which we
> now think of as the fixed signs were originally cardinal, and since
> 1981 have become mutable! This would mean anyone born since 1981 would
> reflect these qualities differently, so a young Leo would be more
> mutable in nature, Aries would be fixed, Pisces would be cardinal for
> instance.
I think this not quite how things are.
During the Age of Taurus, many different cultures made sphinx sculptures
that combined what is now the four fixed signs. The sphinx in Gizeh
has a human face (Aquarius) and a lion body (Leo). Other sphinx figures
additionally have elements of the other two signs, like eagle or dragon
wings (Scorpio), a scorpion tail (Scorpio too), or bull's legs (Taurus).
As far as I understand, the reason people mainly made sculptures for
this cross (and not for one of the other two), is that this was the
*cardinal* cross of that time and also representing the four points
of the compass - let me explain why.
The astrological year starts at the beginning of spring, when day and
night are of equal length. At the beginning of that day, the sun rises
exactly in the east and, in that Age, the sun was in Taurus then (this
is precisely why it was called the Age of Taurus). Now, the beginning
of the year and of spring is cardinal, because it *starts* something.
The same was true for the other three signs of the same cross, Leo
started the summer, Scorpio autumn and Aquarius the winter.
By the time the ancient greeks had adoped astrology, Aries had become
the sign that was rising in the east at the beginning of spring and,
accordingly, had become cardinal.
During the Age of Pisces, however, Aries remained cardinal. In my
opinion,
what is probably the most likely reason for that, is the closeness of
Pisces to nature. The star signs, as we have them today, are very well
adapted to seasons (for example, Virgo is sorting out and stacking in
the harvest of the summer), so that during the Age of Pisces people
prefered to stick with that instead of forcefully moving the crosses
one sign backwards.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
--
PS: There are lots of ideas and beliefs about when exactly the
Age of Aquarius will start or has started. What I personally
consider to be a very likely hypothesis is that the Age of Pisces
started when the first star of the constellation of Pisces,
Alpha Pisces, passed the spring equinox (i.e. when it was in
conjunction with the sun at the beginning of spring).
That star is also called Alrisha, the "knot" or "node" and
symbolizes the point where the string or umbilical cord between
the two fish of the constellation, which represent mother and son,
is cut at the moment of birth, at the moment for which the birth
chart is later calculated. So this would be a very natural moment
for a piscean age to start. This happened roughly in 100 BC.
Assuming further, that the zodiac for ages is also divided into
twelve ages of equal size, the Age of Aquarius would start around
2044 - but, of course, this is hard to judge now. A few hundred
years from now, this should be easier :)
If you are interested in a few more (hopefully original) ideas
about astrological ages by a physicist (me), you might be
interested in sections 3.10 to 3.14 and section 4 of
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
(I must warn you that it is more densely written than this post,
lacking, for example, the more detailed explanation about why
the cardinal cross has something to do with the four points of the
compass, etc. Moreover, some parts of section 4 (but definitely
not all!) are hard to understand without some deeper knowledge of
quantum mechanics and modern physics, in general.)
You may also be interested in Robert Hand's essay about the Age
of Pisces, where he also identifies the start of the Age of
Pisces with the passage of Alrisha/Alpha Pisces, and discusses
correlations between historical events and the passages of
other stars of the constellation by the spring equinox:
Robert Hand. Essays on Astrology. Whitford Press (1982).
In article <aoj8ja$alg$2@reader13.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-93661C.21475815102002@news.bluewin.ch...
>
> (snip of text)
> Extremely interesting reading; thank you.
>
> > PS: There are lots of ideas and beliefs about when exactly the
> > Age of Aquarius will start or has started. What I personally
> > consider to be a very likely hypothesis is that the Age of Pisces
> > started when the first star of the constellation of Pisces,
> > Alpha Pisces, passed the spring equinox (i.e. when it was in
> > conjunction with the sun at the beginning of spring).
>
> Can the same hypothesis be used for the start of the previous/next ages ?
> It seems too much of a coincidence to be irrelevant.
>
> Christine.
I think that is a very difficult question to answer. Let me try to
give some thoughts, from different perspectives (the moon is in Pisces
now, so this might be a good approach now).
From the point of view of science, the earliest undeniable evidence
for the discovery of precession (the motion of the earth's axis that
causes astrological ages), is from around 130 BC when the Greek
astronomer Hipparchus discovered it. It is interesting to note that
this discovery was so close to the moment when Alpha Pisces passed
the spring equinox (Robert Hand indicates the year 111 BC).
By that time, i.e. by the end of the Age of Aries, star signs had
already been somewhat detached from the actual stars, namely because
the zodiac was divided into twelve sections of equal size, whereas
actual constellations have largely different sizes. I think this
abstraction and balancing can be associated with Libra, the sign
that is opposing Aries. I think that the idea, that opposing signs
influence the age too, is not new, at least it is understandable
as a counterreaction to too much inbalance, especially if one side
is Aries.
Moreover, in earlier times, Scorpio included both today's Scorpio
and Libra (as the claws of Scorpio).
For the point of view, that the size of astrological signs has become
balanced, one might assume that also each Age gets equal time. That
is how I got to the year 2044.
How much is astrology a cultural thing ? If it is pure culture, it
will simply be a collective (probably unconscious) decision involving
everybody. If people prefer to use equal length ages, it might really
start in 2044, if people prefer to have a real astronomical event,
it would be at that moment. Maybe it will simply start at several
moments, with different strengths, depending how strong the belief is
for each starting date.
Since when are there astrological Ages ? Some things appear to fit
quite well: The last ice age ended roughly at the beginning of the
Age of Leo, people really started to settle (i.e. to become farmers)
around the beginning of the Age of Cancer, but other associations
are sometimes so much off, that one might suspect that people simply
adapted meanings of Ages *after* they had discovered precession,
i.e. they adapted meanings of star signs to history, not the other
was round. In other words, they knew roughly in which order humanity
made progress, but also lacked exact dates, since they did not have
anything comparable to present science.
Suppose there is a collective mind, composed of all the people on
earth, in other words, imagine having all the eyes of everybody
on this planet and living thousands of years. For such a collective
mind, it would maybe not be too difficult to compare astronomical
observations between centuries and notice that the sign that
rises in spring is changing every about 2000 years. So, even though
precession was likely consciously discovered already quite a bit
before 130 BC, and maybe even known already during the Age of Taurus,
unconsciously and collectively, the knowledge of Ages may be a lot
older. I think it would be a very interesting topic for history to
investigate these roots scientifically.
Science is often too conservative. The oldest wheel that a historian
digs out of the ground is very likely not the first wheel ever made.
On the other hand, projections into the past that are based too much
on the current limited knowledge can be just a wrong as comparable
projections into the future. I hope this text is not too biased in
either direction.
To get back to the original question, I think the answer is probably
yes and no, I think it is unlikely that the passing of the first star
of the constellation of Aquarius will go unnoticed. However, as far
as I remember, that moment is still a few centuries from now, so that
I think it is more likely that to some degree the Age has already
started (enlightenment, revolutions, new planets, science, technology,
democracy, public schools for everybody, equality before the law,
and so on...
Transitions between ages do probably not happen within just a few
years. In my document, I also speculated out of the blue about whether
decanates might be influenced by the ajacent signs. In other words,
the first decanate of Pisces would have been influenced by Pisces
and also still somewhat by Aries, the second one would have been
influenced by Pisces only, and the last one by Pisces and Aquarius.
Taking again the numbers 111 BC and 2044, transitions between
decanates would have been around 612 and 1328, i.e. close to the
Hegira of 622 (when Mohamed fled from Mecca to Medina) and to the
very first beginnings of the renaissance. My speculation would
predict quite a smooth transition between Ages that would have
started already about 700 years ago.
There is a nice website that provides a lot about the mythology of
constellations and star signs: http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/
Besides, she also indicates longitudes for fixed stars. Delta Aries,
the first star of Aries is now at ca. 20deg Taurus. This would put
its passing by the spring equinox to very roughly 1500 BC.
Interestingly, that is probably roughly the time that the Minoan
culture on Crete was destroyed (at least indirectly) by the huge
volcano eruption that blew away a large part of the island
San Torini.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <55hqquclb55dlq2aehmtaack1qtpghomvq@4ax.com>,
Chris Mitchell <chrismitchell@zaalberg.freeserve.nospam> wrote:
[...]
> >PS: There are lots of ideas and beliefs about when exactly the
> >Age of Aquarius will start or has started. What I personally
> >consider to be a very likely hypothesis is that the Age of Pisces
> >started when the first star of the constellation of Pisces,
> >Alpha Pisces, passed the spring equinox (i.e. when it was in
> >conjunction with the sun at the beginning of spring).
>
> Indeed, and I have my own ideas on this subject which does not include
> believing that the Age of Aquarius started in 1981. However, Dobin -
> referring to Jewish astrology - justifies his 1981 date by using
> conjunctions of Saturn and Jupiter. Each conjunction, at roughly
> 20-year intervals, occurs three or four times in the same triplicity.
> For instance:
>
> 8 Sep 1921: 26 Virgo (Earth)
> 15 Feb 1941: 9 Taurus (Earth)
> 19 Feb 1961: 28 Capricorn (Earth)
>
> 31 Dec 1980: 9 Libra (Air)
> 28 May 2000: 23 Gemini (Air)
> 21 Dec 2020: 0 Aquarius (Air)
>
> He then goes on listing them all from 1980 to 2681 - you can see
> twelve "triplets" of around 60 years each. Each triplet starts with a
> sign, and these follow this order: Libra (1980), Cancer (2041), Aries
> (2101), then moves to fixed triplets (Taurus - 2161, Aquarius 2221,
> Scorpio 2281) and so on up to the final triplet (Capricorn 2641, Virgo
> 2661, Taurus 2681).The one after 2681 is 2701, so the "Cardinal Air"
> triplet (starting with Libra) begins again. This period is about 720
> years. When this cycle has repeated 3 times, we get 2,160 years.
>
> However, the conjunctions are not at 20 year intervals - it's 19y
> 290days approx; so in each 720 year cycle, there's a third of a
> conjunction left over. So this neat pattern above requires an
> additional conjunction every 2,160 years. Over a precessional cycle of
> 25,920 years this requires twelve such conjunctions, one in each
> constellation.
>
> He goes on to say:
>
> "These various conjunctions of Jupiter and Saturn had particular
> names. The normal conjunctions within its triplicity was called the
> NORMAL CONJUNCTION. The conjunction that marked the change of
> triplicities every 60 years was known as the GREAT CONJUNCTION. The
> conjunction that occurred once every 2,160 years and marked the
> beginning of a Prophetic Age was known as the MAGNIFICENT CONJUNCTION,
> and the conjunction which occurred every 25,920 years to mark the
> beginning of a new Great Year was known as the DIVINE CONJUNCTION or
> the CONJUNCTION OF POWER."
>
> ...
>
> "...There is a great concern over the exact date which will begin the
> Age of Aquarius. If our ancestors [the ancient Israelites] were
> correct, it is very easy to determine that date. Remember that there
> is one extra Jupiter-Saturn conjunction that heralds the beginning of
> every new Prophetic Age. That conjunction, a Magnificent Conjunction,
> occurred on February 19, 1961 at 28 Capricorn, marking the fourth
> conjunction in the Earth triplicity and the end of the age of Pisces.
> The new conjunction in 1981 on New Years Day almost at midnight of New
> Year's Eve, will be a Great Conjunction in Libra, marking both a
> change in triplicities and the arrival of the Age of Aquarius..."
>
> It's a fascinating read, whether you agree with his conclusions or
> not. The book is by Rabbi Joel C. Dobin, and entitled "Kabbalistic
> Astrology - The Sacred Tradition of the Hebrew Sages".
Thanks a lot for all the information. I just ordered the book.
Let me just mention one thing that came to my mind when reading
about these triplicities that give roughly 60 year cycles. I do not
know much about chinese astrology, but it appears that for one of
the 12 signs (the Horse) every 60 years there is the "Fire Horse",
which has a special meaning. Whereas the normal Horse has rather
"good" properties like wisdom and intelligence, the Fire Horse has
them in abundance and hence threatens the balance that is valued so
high in chinese culture. But, I guess, such short disturbances are
also necessary to some degree, in order to ensure progress in
their society.
I was aware that the chinese way of assigning one sign per year
had to do with the Jupiter cycle of 12 years, so I was assuming
that 60 is just 5 x 12 (five because of the five chinese elements,
earth, wood, metal, fire, water). I was not aware of a relation
to Saturn. However, I have no idea what kind of properties are
associated with these two big planets in China, so maybe that
association is not valid or at least not very strong in chinese
astrology.
One more thing, you can also get 2160 from 72 x 360, i.e. 72 years
are one "day" (one degree) in the great year.
Alain Stalder
In article <aoluca$54g$2@reader08.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
> astalder-F1AF2C.22403616102002@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> Let me try to
> > give some thoughts, from different perspectives (the moon is in Pisces
> > now, so this might be a good approach now).
> [..]
>
> Thank you again. I may not be able to converse on the subject but am always
> interested to read that which was unknown to me.
> Does such astronomical research as it is applied to astrology give you more
> insight into the meaning of the astro. symbolism?
I think that all directly observable properties of nature have
their counterpart in the psyche, partially because people
believed in a correspondence between inner and outer world,
partially very probably also because such a correspondence
really exists, in the sense that similar properties lead to
similar consequences.
Mercury never goes further away from the sun than into next or
previous sign. So the planet Mercury is only visisible near
sunset or sunrise. That is a romantic moment, because it is
near the transition between day and night. That gives a
correlation with what is associated with Gemini. In greek
mythology Hermes (Mercury) leaves the cave where he was born
twice on the day he was born, the second time to steal 40
cattle from Apollon (sun).
And so on, see all my previous posts.
Simple, directly observable properties of what we see every
day, how a fire burns, that a thunderstorm starts with lightning
and ends with rain (cloud=Air=Gemini/Libra/Aquarius), explain
already a lot psychologically, when mapped to the mind.
All you have to do next, is to give these things numbers,
to properties like hot/cold, up/down, 0:100/50:50/100:0,
and then you can do science with it, you can formulate
mathematical theories and verify or falsify them.
Some things in psychology can be done as exactly as in
physics, no more different schools of belief for that
part of psychology: Things will either be verified or
falsified quantitatively or, else, not be decidable by
scientific, mathematically formulated psychology.
At some point it just makes click and these simple stuctures
in mythology, astrology, psychology become evident. It is
almost like Plato described it in his cave parable - once you
have stepped out of the dark and seen the world in full sunshine,
you don't want to go back down to the shadows.
I know this may seem exaggerated, but that is how the future
will be. Of course, the world of possibilities will also just
simply move one step up. There will probably be things that are
very interesting, but will still be refuted by the "scientific
psychologers", the more scared, sceptical people what are
afraid of everything that cannot be given a clear label
true/false.
Alain Stalder
In article <3dd6bb4b.25530514@news.infomagic.net>,
johnk@soultrek.com (John) wrote:
[...]
> During my schooling in philosophy I searched high and low for
> some fundamental reason why astrology should work. Finally I
> discovered the system of Plotinus, a third century AD philosopher
> often referred to as the father of Neo-Platonism. Over the years I’ve
> worked to put together a conceptual foundation for astrological
> thought entitled the Philosophy of Astrology. I somewhat expected the
> astrological community to accept this as a defense for their beliefs.
> Rather than try to exploit it financially, I put it up on the Internet
> for all to think about. After many years, to my consternation,
> astrologers have shown no interest at all. I soon realized that due to
> preconceptions and biases it was too much of a stretch to make
> astrologers comfortable. No one has argued against it, but no one has
> accepted it either.
[...]
If you look at philosophy, you can find almost any opinion about
how the world could be. As long as a view of the world is not
specifically, concretely tied to reality, to what can be seen and
touched, all the possibilities exist and many people will
probably neither argue for or against a specific view.
In that sense, I agree with Ray Murphy: Can you say relatively
briefly where your views explain something that current science
does not explain ? Is there any way to experimentally distinguish
your view from other views, by looking at how the world is, not
merely by thinking ?
I got the impression from quickly reading through your article
that you are essentially saying that the world is alive, which
is, of course, a very old idea that others have had before, maybe
if was even the first view of the world.
It is also clear to me that science has its limitations (I am a
physicist). Science is based on reality (Earth) and on
mathematically formulated theories, the logical consequences
(Air) of reality. In that sense, it lacks the other two elements,
Fire and Water, it says little about personal imagination and
about feelings, about love etc. Science always gives a definite
answer to a question. This works very reliably in concrete cases,
for things that are important for building technology, but when
it comes to fundamental questions, some more precise experimental
results can change the answers totally. For example, before
Einstein, time and space were considered absolute, or before
Quantum Mechanics, people believed that, at least in principle,
the world evolved like a machine, that if you could measure
positions and velocities of particles at one time, you could
predict all their future positions and velocities, that there
would be no free mind.
Somehow this reminds me of when my father used to fix something
and my mother asked if it would work now again. My father would
then give a logical explanation why it should work now. But
sometimes, relatively quickly afterwards, the thing would stop
working again. My father had typically overlooked something and
would fix it. When my mother asked again, my father would again
give a logical explanation of what was wrong and why it will work
now. Similarly, scientists can always give definite answers but
you can also not really trust them to give you the same answer to
fundamental questions next time you ask.
Nowadays it is very difficult to say something new and specific,
i.e. tied somewhat to reality, that is also not in contradiction
with current scientific results. If you want to do philosophy
nowadays, you either have to know fundamental physics very well
or, else, you are limited to say something that is not decidable
by science and hence has no measurable impact on people's lifes,
so nobody will consider it more than just a possibility of many.
Of course, I am also aware that some things in astrology work.
That is the other way of making progress in science, coming
from experiment. Once there are experimental results that are
accepted by the majority of scientists, people will start to
investigate the reasons.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <arhmlg$3e9$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
"Chris Vinall" <cvinall@REMOVEihugTHIS.com.au> wrote:
[...]
> I have a basic grasp of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum
> mechanics and am looking to buy books which deal with the
> philosophical implications of the theory, especially as it relates
> to the measurement problem and the role of consciousness in the
> theory. I am interested in the parallels that appear with Eastern
> mysticism and in theories like Wheeler's that implicate
> consciousness in the basic structure of the universe, but would be
> equally interested in books that argue against these - I am looking
> simply for informed discussion of the subject. If my knowledge of
> the physics is expanded at the same time, so much the better. [...]
Let me start with a few selected references and then provide some
slightly more philosophical thoughts.
1) The first chapter of Dirac's "Principles of Quantum Mechanics"
(Oxford University Press, 1958) gives a very good introduction to
the pragmatic view of QM, to a view that is defined by what can
be measured and makes no additional assumptions.
2) In a booklet called "Elementary Particle Physics and the Laws
of Physics" (Cambridge University Press, 1989), a lecture called
"The Reason for Antiparticles" by Richard Feynman is printed.
In it, Feynman shows in a relatively elementary way that
antiparticles are a consequence of QM and relativity. He simply
shows that there must be a non-vanishing probability amplitude
for intermediate particles in a scattering process that are
outside the light cone, i.e. "faster than light". Say, you have
two particles A and B scattering off each other with a charged
intermediary partice "flying" from A to B. Then, according to
special relativity, there are other observers in relative motion
who will consider things the other way round, namely as the
inverse charge moving from B to A. Feynman put it more simply:
"[...] we can say that one man's virtual particle is the other
man's virtual antiparticle."
3) The book "Quantum Theory and Measurement" by Wheeler and Zurek
essentially reproduces original papers about the book's subject.
In it, in an article by Bohr called "Discussion with Einstein on
epistemological problems in atomic physics", Bohr discusses maybe
the most famous Gedankenexperiment with which Einstein tried to
find inconsistencies in QM. Take a box with a clock inside that
is connected to a shutter. There is some radiation inside the box
and the shutter can be opened and closed so quickly that chances
are good that only one particle escapes. Now, in addition, the
box is hanging on a spring to measure its change in weight when
the particle escapes. Apparently, this setup would allow to
measure both the time when the particles escaped and its energy
(mass) with arbitrary precision, thus violating Heisenberg's
uncertainty relation. However, since the clock also moves up in
the gravitational field when the particle escapes, according to
general relativity, the clock will run faster, introducing an
uncertainty in the time measurement that yields again
Heisenberg's uncertainty relation.
As far as I can see, most philosophical discussions are about
classical (non-relativistic) QM, the QM of Schrodinger and
Heisenberg, with a little bit of special relativity mixed in,
in order to make explicit why EPR-like experiments exclude local
hidden variable theories (see e.g. book by J.S. Bell, who
discovered this; mentioned in another reply to your post).
Now, it appears that what I wrote at 2) can also be seen with
a different focus than Feynman had in his lecture; it not only
shows that antiparticles are a consequence of QM and special
relativity, but also that virtual processes/"particles" with
"speeds larger than the speed of light" are a direct consequence
of QM and special relativity. In that light, the "spooky"
correlations in EPR-like experiments appear maybe a bit less
strange.
Hence it may make not much sense to try to develop alternative
formulations of classical quantum mechanics, but might be more
fruitful to try to tackle quantum field theory, say, Quantum
Electrodynamics, directly.
As 3) suggests, even classical QM and general relativity appear
somewhat suprisingly not to be totally disconnected, so it may
even be necessary to incorporate gravitation in order to be able
to find something new. Since there is currently no quantum field
theory of gravitation, this appears to be at least another order
of magnitude more difficult to do than QED alone.
Of course, it is not possible to exclude that trying to somehow
view classical QM differently will lead to some interesting new
physics, but judging from the above this appears at least more
unlikely than not to me. Going for quantum field theory directly
appears to be more promising.
But, is there really anything to be gained? Maybe it is really
not possible to go beyond quantum theories in understanding the
world. Well, let me just give a probably somewhat suprising
argument why this might not be so...
Heraclitus and Lao Tse lived roughly at the same time. Although
they lived in separate cultures, they had one thing in common.
They were among the first abstract thinkers. I think this shows
in the things they said, namely that in what they said logical
opposites are not fully separated yet; they often mention one
thing *and* its contrary in the same sentence.
Similarly, in QM the wave/particle duality is not fully resolved.
Considering an electron as a wave or particle only will not do in
all situations, both pictures are necessary. The two photons in
the most common realisation of the EPR Gedankenexperiment are
separated by a spacelike distance and yet the results of what is
measured of them are correlated.
This might suggest that QM could be an intermediary theory, that
is to be superseded sometime in the future by a theory that makes
things more explicit, like it happended in philosophy where later
philosophers like Aristotle devised a logic that is close to the
one that is used in today's mathematics.
As a physicist, I must say that it becomes moot to talk about
these issues after some time, unless there are new ideas with a
real chance to lead somewhere. At the end of the day, the only
thing that is really satisfying for a physicist is a theory that
makes different predictions than existing theories (even though
alternative but equivalent formulations of QM could also be of
some use - like simplifying calculations or even only thinking
about quantum mechanics (e.g. path integrals)).
Unless thoughts are tied to reality, different people will always
have different preferences about how the world could be.
Philosophy is maybe more about the latter, physics clearly more
about the former.
Alain Stalder
--
PS: Amazon.com has some sample pages of 1) and 2) online,
including the beginning of Feynman's lecture, resp. of the first
chapter of 1), so you may judge for yourself if the level in
these books is simple enough to be helpful...
(Some articles in 3) also contain very little math).
In article <3de5e837$0$86534$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>,
"Johan Glas" <johan.glas@skynet.be> wrote:
> Does anyone has experience with horoscopes of autisitic children. Could you
> tell me what your results are. Does anyone has the coordinates of autistic
> children?
>
> Tha,k you
Liz Greene discusses the birth charts of an autistic child and
her family in "The Astrology of Fate". The book is already 20
years old.
I was at a seminar by Liz Greene about trines in January 2001.
During it, Liz Greene mentioned - if I remember correctly - that
a young student she knows is doing some research to find
astrological correlations with autism. She said that there are
indications for two different kinds of autism, one has to do with
trines in fire signs, the other was connected with Saturn or
Capricorn, but I don't remember in which way exactly.
Liz Greene is the director of the Centre for Psychological
Astrology in London: http://www.cpalondon.com
Somebody there should probably be able to tell you more
(there are contact e-mail addresses at the web site).
Good luck,
Alain Stalder
In article <arn3fm$ekr$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
"Mike Dubbeld" <miike@erols.com> wrote:
> Hi Chris I think I saw your post on sci.physics asking about a quantum
> group? I am reading and have read a number of quantum books.
>
> I like
[lots of books and links]
Hi Mike,
Thanks a lot for all the interesting stuff.
I think the post below that did not get past moderation at
sci.physics.research might be interesting. I think it is a pretty
basic and well-founded recapitulation of current knowledge, plus
a somewhat speculative idea. I guess it was the last part that
made the post appear too speculative for sci.physics.research
(which I could accept), but maybe I also got some of the stuff
above wrong, but that seems less likely to me (I have asked the
moderator to be more specific, but did not receive a reply yet).
Anyway, the idea is to find out if the brain thinks quantum
mechanically by asking people questions and measuring how quickly
people can deliver a correct answer. Since some problems can be
solved more efficiently by a quantum computer than by a classical
computer, like e.g. some database searches, and if some people
can find information more quickly than would be possible with a
"classical brain", that would constitute a clear indication that
quantum mechanics has some role in thinking. Of course, putting
this idea to practice is not easy and there might even be good
arguments why it could not work. It was for the latter reason
that I initially posted to sci.physics.research because it is the
only place online with the necessary critical brainpower (other
places are either not critical and precise enough or, else, do
not have the brainpower).
By the way, for reasons that must be obvious to you too, asking
questions to women would very likely mostly be more promising
than asking men with respect with to the above idea. Men think
more logically and very probably for the most part classically.
Anyway, here is the original post:
There is one more aspect of quantum mechanics that could be
helpful in finding out how important a conscious observer is. It
is simply an application of the formalism of quantum mechanics to
a new regime. This is typically called "decoherence" and it says
essentially that every sufficiently large quantum mechanical
system looses coherence quite quickly even if it apparently only
interacts very little with its environment (which is also a
quantum mechanical system in the calculations, so there is no act
of measurement, yet).
Speaking in terms of Schrodinger's famous Gedankenexperiment,
this would mean that probability amplitudes for a cat that is
both dead *and* alive become exceedingly small very quickly, so
that essentially only probabilities for cat that is either dead
or alive remain.
I don't know the current state of affairs. Apparently there used
to be some disagreement among physicists about how strong
decoherence really is. At least it appears feasible to decide
this question experimentally in the near future (and maybe this
has already happened).
Here is a relatively recent article that in most parts only uses
fairly basic quantum mechanics:
C. Kiefer and E. Joos, "Decoherence: Concepts and Examples"
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9803052
In any case, the fundamental problem of measurement will not be
solved by this, since it is just an application of the formalism
of quantum mechanics. However, the potential influence of a
conscious observer would apparently be diminished if decoherence
is really that strong: Even though one still has to take a peek
to know whether the cat is actually still alive, one knows
already before the measurement that the cat is practically not in
a state dead+alive.
Decoherence has also been used to infer that quantum mechanics
cannot be important in the brain, simply because the brain is a
large macroscopic object that is not well isolated. However, even
if the effect turns out to be as strong as suggested above (or
already has), from a philosophical standpoint the following
question is still bound to be asked: Is coherence in the brain an
important part of the difference between a conscious, living
brain and a dead one ? After all live is known to solve complex
problems, it can survive in the most hostile environments.
As long as an idea is not specific enough, physics can typically
not exclude it, simply because the set of possible specific
theories would often be too big. Every decision that would make
the idea more specific and is not made maybe on average roughly
at least doubles the number of possible specific theories. Hence
one quickly ends up with an exponential number of possible
theories that nobody can compare with experiment in less than
exponential time.
This brings me indirectly to a rather speculative idea that I had
recently. Maybe it can be turned into something more specific,
maybe not:
If quantum mechanics is important in thinking, would one not
expect that the human mind is capable of solving certain selected
problems (for which known efficient algorithms for quantum
computers exist) more quickly than would be possible with a
"classical brain" ?
I don't know quantum computing well enough to judge whether this
idea has any chance to be of practical use. At least it would
require very little equipment, just a bunch of people to ask
questions to and a stopwatch would do.
Alain Stalder
In article
<pan.2002.12.01.22.54.04.34411@nospammissthisout.myrealbox.com>,
"Titanpoint" <titanpoint@nospammissthisout.myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I am thinking of proposing two new newsgroups to try and filter two
> important subjects and give them a safe home.
>
> They would be:
>
> sci.physics.relativity.moderated
>
> and
>
> sci.physics.quantum
>
> Both of these usenet groups would be moderated by a team of five or six
> people.
>
> For some bizarre reason (and I haven't found out why yet) there is a
> moratorium on converting unmoderated newsgroups to moderated so I can't
> simply apply for sci.physics.relativity to be changed.
>
> For this step to be taken I need you to reply to this posting with either
> a YES or a NO.
>
> The basic premise is to return the Usenet groups on these two subjects
> back to people who actually study science at college or some other high
> eduction, as well as professional scientists who wish to contact others in
> the same field. And newbies who could ask questions about this or that
> result in GR, SR or QM (as appropriate).
>
> I don't aim to propose quite the level of moderation found on
> sci.physics.research, as personally I find it a little to restrictive. I
> think the focus of the new newsgroups should be on learning, new
> discoveries in the disciplines and applying the mathematics of these
> subjects in new and innovative ways to explain phenomena.
>
> If the mood is generally positive, I will propose the creation of an RFD
> and an FAQ on the two new newsgroups (one for each).
>
> If you don't think these NGs should be created, say why, but don't flame
> me or anyone who disagrees because frankly, I don't care.
>
> TP
I think this is generally a good idea, the gap between
sci.physics and sci.physics.research is too big. Let me present a
few thoughts about the current state and how it could be
improved.
For my taste sci.physics has lost usefulness for most parts. It
is hard to find really interesting stuff. Many discussions are
not about facts and ideas, but contain rather personal attacks.
Also, since there are so many posts, I get the impression that
many people are reading things too superficially and replying
accordingly.
A newsgroup like sci.physics.research has certainly its
justification. There is a need to discuss top notch research in
public in a relatively quick way. For this ambitious goal,
moderation has to be rather strict. I guess it would mean too
much effort for the moderators to check all posts for possibly
containing an intelligent, but maybe not very well formulated
idea. In my view sci.physics.research stands a bit like a rock,
and to some degree it has to. But, at some point, some water just
has to flow around it.
Do we really need two additonal groups ? Would not one group be
better ? First, it's simpler, you need only to write one FAQ, one
charter and need less moderators, plus people will have to scan
only one new newsgroup. Moreover, I think merely by creating
separate groups for quantum physics and relativity, you make it
harder to present ideas that concern both. I would prefer a
single newsgroup. Maybe one could restrict it to modern physics,
but I would not mind to keep it open for any kind of physics.
I am not sure what a good name would be. It should be something
that even first time posters would easily recognize as a good
place to post to. Here are some suggestions:
sci.physics.intermediate
sci.physics.modern
sci.physics.openlymoderated
As a further suggestion, to reduce the need for moderators, some
news groups have whitelists into which posters come who were
repeately accepted by the moderators. Posts coming from people on
the whitelist are automatically posted to the group without
moderation. In addition to reducing the amount of necessary
moderation, quicker conversations between frequent posters become
possible.
Hope this helps and good luck,
Alain Stalder
Are the Bogdanov theses and papers science or not ?
It is my suspicion that the publications simply wrap known facts
in such a way that makes it hard to tell that most statements are
trivially true and, of course, also to find any errors in the
papers. Let me state the idea a bit more in detail:
a) Choose a field to write a paper in.
b) Collect statements that have been proven to be correct or at
least are considered correct by the majority of scientists in the
field.
c) Transform the statements by linking them trivially to each
other and substituting words by synonyms.
A reviewer who probes the publication by doing some spot checks
will only find statements that are correct and hence maybe assume
that the writers know the field well, so that their research is
likely well-founded and hence worth to be published.
Whether the actual Bogdanov publications fit the above hypothesis
is best judged by people who know the field well. Judging merely
from recent posts, there appears to be some indication of that.
If it turns out to be really so, I would be more interested in
Bogdanov PhD theses about how they did things in detail.
This technique might even be of some use. I remember how the
famous computer scientist E. W. Dijkstra constructed an efficient
algorithm for calculating the square root of an integer in a
similar way. He started with a trivial program that would just
start counting up from 0 and square until the square was bigger
than the number to take the root from. Then he made a number of
variable substitutions and arrived at a program that was provably
correct and efficient, but not no longer understandable at all
why it would calculate a square root.
Alain Stalder
In article <asfbr2$lpd$3@reader10.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> > Liz Greene discusses the birth charts of an autistic child and
> > her family in "The Astrology of Fate". The book is already 20
> > years old.
> >
>
> An interesting study of family fate.
> But could she have seen autism in the chart if she had NOT known about the
> child?
>
> Christine.
I think yes. Not in the sense of being able to say for sure that
the child is autistic, but I think she would in many cases be
able to see an indication in that direction.
Of course, your question also leads deeper. It is difficult for
me as a man to get answers about the nature of fate right, but
let me at least provide some thoughts.
I think family influences show clearly in birth charts, but
the direct influence while the child grows up should also not
be neglected. Human beings are not machines that simply run
the program in the birth chart, people are responsible to at
least try to make things good. It is very difficult to assign
guilt, because the guilt is relative to the forces acting on
people by their environment, and no single human being is
fully able to judge how these forces are. Scorpio, where quite
a few planets are now, has the unthankful task to probe the
forces as deeply as necessary to find out what the strongest
forces are and hence to give fate what she needs to decide.
It is important during that process that Scorpio does also
not go deeper than necessary for fate to decide.
The word "process" is also linked to this. Scorpio is one of
the adult signs (the four in the middle of the zodiac). As a
female sign, it stands for the mother and her role to raise
the child. During that process, she has sometimes to push a
bit, to get the child across some barriers that are unpleasant
but necessary for the healthy development of the child. The
mother as to ease the transition by giving emotional feedback
to the child and the process is typically also painful for the
mother, as typically each step in the process separates her a
bit more from her child while it grows up.
Sometimes Scorpio overdoes these things, gets to like the
power too much and goes too deep, comits hubris. It is not
a simple task and sometimes individual destinies have to
suffer in order to ease things on a larger scale. Nobody
likes that if one is the one who is to suffer. Scorpio is
similar to its opposite sign, Taurus; both want harmony.
Taurus is more oriented to making things pleasant on the
outside, real world and hence also brings some of the beauty
indirectly into the mind. Scorpio dreams of a world where
there are no hidden animosities, where there is emotional
harmony and tries to find and remove these wounds. For that
purpose he often uses the energies of people themselves,
egnites them and directs them to bring things out and let
them settle. Indirectly that has again a harmonising effect
on the outside, real world.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <7t6ouukbopkujjsfelkr7dmd7tcr0qepht@4ax.com>,
Arkadiusz Jadczyk <ark@cassiopaea.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:10:40 GMT, Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Alain Stalder wrote:
> >>
> >> Are the Bogdanov theses and papers science or not ?
> >[snip]
> >
> >John Baez remains unconvinced. If and when they satisfy Baez, it
> >becomes credible (e.g., M-theory) even if not factually true.
>
> It is good to remember what Bertrand Russel wrote in his Sceptical
> Essays
>
> (I am quoting from memory as I do not have the book with me. Perhaps
> someone will be able to find the exact quote....);
>
> "Where experts do not agree, layman will do better by abstaining from
> opinion.
>
> ark
> --
>
> Arkadiusz Jadczyk
> http://www.cassiopaea.org/quantum_future/homepage.htm
>
> --
I agree with Uncle Al's statements. In this case, the final
assessment of the nature of the Bogdanov publications has to come
from experts in the field. I also recognize that the two brothers
are intelligent and creative, so that it is unlikely that their
works do not contain original content of some sort, even though
they may have created it in an unusual manner.
Regarding your quote from Bertrand Russel, I only agree
partially. In my opinion, non-experts should carefully weigh
whether to say something, they should not interfere lightly. But
in some situations an outsider has a better view than somebody
who is deeply immersed in the problem. Furthermore, not all
problems can be solved well by using logical thinking alone. Let
me give some examples.
In the book "Cuckoo's Egg", Clifford Stoll tells how he traced
and found a hacker that was based in Germany and spying out US
computers. Most solutions to the problems of tracing the hacker
came from Stoll himself (he is a physicist), and were rather of
technical nature. But one crucial idea that helped to keep the
hacker staying online at a particular computer came from Stoll's
girlfriend or wive. The idea was to produce fake secret documents
to spur the interest of the hacker - and it worked.
The integer square root algorithm by Dijkstra that I mentioned
is from a book where he describes a technique for developing
provably correct computer programs ("A Method of Programming",
Addison-Wesley, 1988). The general idea is as follows: You write
down the initial conditions and the final conditions for the
program and then try to construct a solution. Typically you start
with a trivial solution that is often not very efficient and then
you change a few things while keeping the conditions invariant.
The idea was initially to formalize this process totally, i.e. to
finally have the computer solve the problem for you. However, in
the end that did not work out. Dijkstra noted that in that
process, one often needed to "pull a rabbit out of the hat", i.e.
needed an original idea that could not be derived in a formal
way.
This brings me to Goedel's theorem. Some problems cannot be
solved within the system, one has to broaden the view in order to
make them decidable. Note that such problems are not that rare.
In his book "Nature and the Greeks", Schrodinger provides such an
example from projective geometry, a statement that is correct but
only provable in three dimensional space, but not in the plane.
(I remember that specially, because at the time when I was in
school, I actually solved that problem with visual imagination
when the teacher asked the class. Some school mates still
remember today that I "went up into space".)
I think it may not even be difficult to create statements that
are not decidable, and would not at all be surprised if the
Bogdanov brothers had explicitly created such statements.
One more thing about experts: In "Surely you're joking, Mr.
Feynman!", Feynman describes an argument he had with a painter.
The painter said that he could mix yellow paint from red and
white paint. Feynman did not believe that and the painter fetched
some paint to demonstrate, but finally had to concede that it did
not work that way, that the only thing you get from red and white
is pink.
In that sense, I feel that even though I am not exactly an expert
in, say, M-theory, as a physicist with experience of how things
are in nature, I can say some substantial things in this case,
which is not a purely formal problem that can be solved in
isolation, although it remains clear that the final assessment
will have to come from the experts. Good luck!
Alain Stalder
--
PS: Note that democracy could be considered the most striking
counterexample against Russel's quote. If you applied it, you
could conclude that politics should be entirely done by the
experts in politics, namely politicians, so that, for example,
the US President should be elected by congress, as well as
congress itself.
(Of course, the main problem here comes from the fact that what
politicians do affects everybody and not only the politicians. In
that sense, the "21 points" that Friedrich Durrenmatt wrote to go
along with his famous play "The Physicists" are certainly worth a
look (sorry, only the original german version appears to be
published on the web):
http://www.ejh.de/osna/ag-muk/21punkte.htm )
In article <2a0cceff.0212040253.7af9e420@posting.google.com>,
nulldev00@aol.com (Edward Green) wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:<astalder-D97714.08280802122002@news.bluewin.ch>...
>
> > I think this is generally a good idea, the gap between
> > sci.physics and sci.physics.research is too big.
>
> It is -- but if more thoughtful and educated people like yourself
> would take the trouble to participate a bit in sci.physics, and filter
> the cranks which will become obvious to you by volume, the gap would
> narrow.
>
> Creating more groups is like appealing to the government to regulate
> drugs because otherwise you just can't stop yourself from buying crack
> each time you walk out on the street -- maybe just a pinch this sime
> -- and wake up cursing days later. If only the streets were safe for
> a person with my weakness!
>
> Arguing with cranks is like smoking crack -- an initial rush, then
> despair. Discipline, not regulation, is the answer.
>
> > For my taste sci.physics has lost usefulness for most parts. It
> > is hard to find really interesting stuff. Many discussions are
> > not about facts and ideas, but contain rather personal attacks.
> > Also, since there are so many posts, I get the impression that
> > many people are reading things too superficially and replying
> > accordingly.
>
> And you just can't bother yourself to set up an automatic killfile to
> deal with those who mostly post empty personal attacks, but want a
> moderator to volunteer for the duty?
>
> Oops ... sounds a bit like a personal attack. But what I see from
> most people who say "I would participate in sci.physics if only ..."
> is laziness and the desire to be spoon fed. If it's too much trouble
> to set up a filter, I have to wonder what your interest level is in
> the first place.
>
> Of course, there is always the annoying possibility of being shown
> wrong in public by the unqualified -- I think that's the real risk
> which keeps many shy professionals at bay.
Let me just present an idea how to solve the "filtering problem"
in a new way.
Conventionally, you either need a moderated newsgroup or else
everybody has to set their filters in their newsreader. These
automatic filters are limited, some (human) readers may only be
interested in specific topics at a specific time, or some posters
may generally only produce posts that interest a reader once in a
while. Just "killing" a poster in the newsreader is not totally
useless, but also not fully satisfying. More sophisticated
automatic filters help, but are still limited. If you make them
too restrictive you run the danger of missing some interesting,
special stuff, if you leave them too much open, you still have
some trouble finding things that really interests you.
Say, you put up a web site that collects all posts that go to the
sci.physics.* newsgroups. Then you offer people the opportunity
to assign a category to the posts and maybe also to rate them.
You could have, say, "Uncle Al's Real World Physics" or "Ed's
Favorites". Other visitors of the site get the chance to create
their favorite profile, say only posts that are on the above two
lists, except when they are posted, say, by "Peter Pan". That
gives you a combination of automatic filtering and human
judgment, while leaving the choice of what you want to look at
completely open. Since there appear to be quite a few people who
read the physics newsgroups daily, maybe they would not mind much
to categorize and maybe rate each post they read (provided the
interface for doing so is simple enough).
How do you get people to visit the web site instead of just using
their newsreaders ? Just post a message that announces the web
site daily to non-moderated newsgroups, and in longer intervals
to moderated newsgroups (whatever their charter allows).
Of course, I do not sell this as the solution of all problems,
just as some input that may be useful in the process of making
things better.
Alain Stalder
In article <OhGJ9.31665$Vz2.8980771@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
"Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:
> < re-re-re-sending...:) >
>
> On Gemini:
> "The butterfly brings joy and magic only if it's allowed to fly free."--Liz
> Greene
>
> Here it is my intention to show how the natal charts of astrologers
> innocently bias what the astrologer chooses to express the meaning of chart
> symbols: I don't think anyone is immune to the effect of their own
> individuality:
>
> Liz Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
> Like the theoretical butterfly effect and its possible influence on
> worldwide weather patterns, as described in the science of Chaos, natal
> aspects seem to be infinitesimal currents on a distant psychological
> continent which somehow tip a delicate balance and cause a cascading,
> evolving, pattern of larger currents in our waking
> consciousness/personality/persona. Natal aspects appear to be biasing
> agents of sorts which influence our selection of what we will notice and
> apply to for the purpose of expressing our own tailored meanings. These
> lobbyists influencing our senate of sentience, seem to work best when we are
> paying little or no attention to the unpublished, behind the scenes, details
> of our personality's legislative committees in smoke-filled chambers. Can we
> use Liz's chart to show how the butterfly metaphor became the Gemini Party's
> most elect-able candidate? How does a metaphor attract our personal
> allegiance and or serve our socio-political purposes?
>
> The flitting, oscillating, unstable-looking freedom of Uranus is found here
> in Gemini and is emphasized by its opposition to the Moon of mundane
> personal experience and the conjunction of the so-called benifics, Venus and
> Jupiter, in equivocating Libra.
> http://home.stny.rr.com/pedantus/Greene_L_01.gif
>
> Gee, I wonder why the butterfly metaphor was selected to carry the
> author's meaning concerning Gemini. Was it simply calculated? Was a light
> bulb inspiration? Was just too charming a pet notion? Was it generated by a
> computer program?...:) LOL
>
> Rog
I think at least the association of "butterfly" with Gemini is
not a matter of taste or bias, but simply correct:
Gemini are the first air sign, made mainly of fire and only
slightly of water*. Compared to Libra or Aquarius, Gemini are
more unpredictable, like when and where a butterfly rests or
flies. Things are not as transparent yet as for Libra and
Aquarius (also since Gemini are the youngest air sign), the
surface is visible, the play with unification from "2" to "1" is
only starting; the two wings of a butterfly move quickly when it
flies or slowly when it rests, and then they often merge
apparently into a single one. Gemini are the last sign of the
spring, when butterflies fly from flower to flower (this is maybe
not strictly correct in nature, but it is at least what is
asscicated psychologically with the later part of spring).
Finally, I assume that the association of the butterfly with
Gemini is very old, that it can be found in many old sources
about astrology.
* see http://www.exactphilosophy.net or a previous post by me:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-B3941C.06261208092002%40news
..dplanet.ch&output=gplain
According to the chart you indicated, Liz Greene has several
planets in Libra, i.e. that indicates many deep, but not fully
resolved insights into the world (see * too). Her roots (MC) in
Pisces fit well with the fact that she seldom says anything
definitely in public that is not correct; what she says is
typically just natural (of course, this may just be my own bias,
but I think this is rather not significantly the case here).
These things together lead to many statements that contain just
the right words like magic (see "magic" in quote), probably
without too much conscious awareness of it. Libra often just
creates a resonance in people that can be helpful in resolving
complexes without a need to analyze and make conscious.
(Mathematically speaking, Libra is rather operating in frequency
space, not in real space).
In that sense, the other words in the quote fit very well too:
"brings", "joy", "magic", the word "and" when connecting them,
"only", "allowed", "fly", "free".
One more example: At the 2000 Astrology World Congress she gave
a talk about the 12th house and associated "clandestine
relationships" with it. If you detach a bit from the current
meaning, a clandestine relationship is merely a relationship that
is more related to the "destiny" of your "clan" (your family in
broad sense, the background that you come from) than to your own
personal destiny.
So, in the end, it does not matter much to me how astrologers
get it right, as long as they do. She also once mentioned that
artists often don't want to analyze themselves, to make such
things conscious - for fear to loose their creativity. So...
Alain Stalder
In article <SGOJ9.33384$Vz2.9492594@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
"Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:
> My wife once asked me, "..how did Europe get men on horses to charge water
> cooled machine guns in WW1?"
> "They start by teaching the critical importance of uniformly correct
> penmanship." I said...:)
I am a physicist. I am interested in how nature is. I judge what
somebody writes about nature primarily by whether it corresponds
to experiment, including my own experience. I don't "believe in
the theory of relativity" because everybody thinks Einstein was a
great physicist, but because the predictions of relativity are
correct, because GPS works, for example.
Liz Greene describes the nature of psyche. For a scientist she
provides great material in my experience (what she writes fits
well with what I experience and observe in the world). Especially
in the beginning it was crucial for me as a male scientist to
have material that fits with experience and contains very little
real errors. Of course, everything that a person writes is
colored by his/her psyche, by his/her birth chart and
environment. And the perception of that coloration is also
relative to who reads it. I, for example, never managed to read
anything by C.G. Jung, with the interesting exception of the
article "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle".
Apparently that article was written with assistance by the
physicist Wolfgang Pauli. I guess this removed most of what
usually disturbed me when reading Jung, namely that I could not
find out what to remember of it, what was just personal
preference by Jung and what was more generally true. Sometimes
it takes an intermediary reader to gain access to some
interesting information.
Alain Stalder
In article <OhGJ9.31665$Vz2.8980771@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
"Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:
[...]
> Liz Greene's Butterfly: metaphors as strange attractors
> Like the theoretical butterfly effect and its possible influence on
> worldwide weather patterns, as described in the science of Chaos, natal
> aspects seem to be infinitesimal currents on a distant psychological
> continent which somehow tip a delicate balance and cause a cascading,
> evolving, pattern of larger currents in our waking
> consciousness/personality/persona. [...]
I think the question of how much in life is fate and how much is
chaos/chance has quite a bit to do with Gemini/Hermes. I guess if
the guy who came up with the illustration for chaos theory would
have chosen, say, a fly instead of a butterfly, probably a lot
less people would have been fascinated by it.
During election night of the 2000 US presidential election,
Mercury switched from retrograde to forward motion. In what
followed, the word "butterfly" appeared too, namely in the famous
"butterfly ballot". If I remember the facts correctly, that
ballot was designed to be easier to read (it was for Palm Beach
County, where there is apparently a larger percentage of elderly
people than average). Since the font for typing the names of the
candidates had to be larger and the distance between where holes
had to be punched for choosing a candidate were fixed, they idea
was to print the names of the candidates on alternative sides of
the places where the holes were to be punched.
Apparently many people misunderstood the ballot, resulting in a
significantly higher vote for Pat Buchanan than in neighbouring
counties. In fact, the difference would have very probably been
sufficient for a different candidate to become president. The
counting procedures also reflect Gemini themes. I remember people
looking at the surface of ballots in order to see if a hole was
punched through deeply enough to see light pass through.
This raises at least two questions:
a) How would the world be if Al Gore had been elected ? Would
there be such pressure on Iraq ? Would 9/11 happened ? (Not at
all, but maybe a much bigger catastrophe sometime in the future ?
Something similar but on another date ? etc.)
b) Was it foreseeable for America that the election could be so
close, that a few thousand votes in Palm Beach could have made
the difference ? Was the butterfly ballot unconsciously and
collectively planned or was it just randomness, chance, chaos ?
I think nobody knows the answers, nor even knows how they
could ever be answered...
The singer Prince, who has the sun in Gemini, writes in a song
text "There's joy in repetition".
Alain Stalder
In article <L50K9.38813$Vz2.10423592@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
"Pedantus" <pedantus@no_hotmail_spam.com> wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-7C29B6.12365112122002@news.bluewin.ch...
[...]
> > I think the question of how much in life is fate and how much is
> > chaos/chance has quite a bit to do with Gemini/Hermes. I guess if
> > the guy who came up with the illustration for chaos theory would
> > have chosen, say, a fly instead of a butterfly, probably a lot
> > less people would have been fascinated by it.
>
> All that means, to me, is that a fly doesn't 'work' as a communicable
> symbol for the idea.
> BTW, I would check the chart of anyone coining such an image, whatever.
> But, when and if a man chooses to call it the turnip effect, then we have
> something to work with..:)
What I wanted to say was simply that in order for such an image
to be publicly successful, it must fit. Sure, if you are pedantic
you can find counterexamples, but mostly this is true. So there
is natural selection (in the sense of Darwin) that filters out
images that correspond to the collective and unconscious
structure of human culture. If you are pedantic, you can also
counter that such images are often just fashionable, in other
words mostly influenced by the time in which they are popular.
The longer an idea rests popular, typically the more it is
universal. (I am sure there are counterexamples here, too, if you
are really pedantic, but mostly it is true).
I am from the generation with Pluto in Virgo. It makes sense to
be pedantic up to a point, to look into details and not to judge
things in too broad ways, but that can also become too much like
the princess and the pea. The more you look into details, the
more you loose the view of the whole. (Yes, if you are pedantic,
you can counter that analysis is required to recognize
connections, to create the right "wholes", instead of the usual
ones that are filled with errors). You cannot analyze every
detail in life. This is by far impossible. I think even the most
pedantic mind cannot counter that. Hence analysis is best applied
selectively. Yes, I am sure there are again counterexamples, but
mostly it is true. Moreover, the more time you invest in analysis,
the less time remains for enjoying life - yes, I am sure there
are again counterexamples, if you are really pedantic.
[...]
> > b) Was it foreseeable for America that the election could be so
> > close, that a few thousand votes in Palm Beach could have made
> > the difference ?
>
> I'm sure the party bean counters did actually did how close it would be.
I do not want to be too pedantic, but the crucial question here
is: when ? Before or after the butterfly ballot was created ?
I suspect that it was quite a bit after the ballot was created.
(As far as I remember, the ballot had to be published in a
newspaper and it had to be accepted in some formal way; such
administrative things typically take quite some time).
I was selective in choosing what to reply too. I think it would
maybe be a bit too pedantic to criticize that I did not answer to
all remarks, but maybe I was not pedantic enough and overlooked
the best parts of the reply. Again, If you are really pedantic,
you can counter that all parts are interesting, if you just
analyze them deeply enough. So, my reply describes my personal
bias too, but it would probably be too pedantic to limit what
somebody replies to that, although it is certainly part of it.
There's joy in repetition.
Alain Stalder
In article <w2jK9.49027$Ti2.7426@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
"Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to challenge that science is a system that is able to
> conclude on truth or falseness of a scientific claim.
> The consequence of this claim, is that it is impossible to
> attribute 100 % certainty TRUE or 100 % certainty FALSE
> to any statement in the real world.
Sorry if I don't reply to your post in detail. Instead, let me
formalize the problem somewhat, to make it maybe more simple to
think about these things.
To stake the frame, let me make the usual assumptions in physics,
namely that a real world with other people in it exists. (All of
these can be challenged philosophically, but I will stick to them
here; besides they are my most likely guess at how things are).
1. Experimental results are a heap of numbers. They can be
represented by a sequence of N bits, where N is a very large, but
finite number.
2. A scientific theory is computer program with M bits that
reproduces the sequence of N bits exactly, where M is smaller
than N (and hence also finite).
3. Science aims to find the simplest theory, i.e. a program with
the smallest M.
Q1: Can you be sure that the theory will fit future experimental
data ?
No, you cannot. Experience shows that it typically works very
well, and especially so if the parameters in your application or
experiment are close to the parameters in previous experimental
tests.
Q2: Can you prove that a theory is the simplest theory ?
In principle you can, you just run all 2^M programs that are
smaller than your current best theory and see if they reproduce
the experimental data.
In practice this is impossible already for very small M, at least
if you are using a classical computer. One issue is time: current
cryptography still uses keys with of the order of 100 bits. The
second issue is energy: you need at least an energy kT to flip a
bit in a classical computer. Around very roughly 200 bits, you
start to need energy of the order of the mass of the sun, a few
bits more and you need the Milky Way, etc.
Q3: Could a quantum computer provide information about the
simplest theory ?
Let me split that up and make it more specific:
Q3a: Could it find the shortest program in less than exponential
time ?
Q3b: Could it find out in less than exponential time how long the
shortest program would be ?
Q3c: Could it find out in less than exponential time whether a
given program is the shortest one ?
Q3d: Or at least provide a probability for Q3c ?
Is there any published work concerning these questions ? I know
there are efficient search algorithms for quantum computers. Can
they be applied in this situation ? Are there maybe simple
arguments that allow to answer any of the above questions with No ?
Why should you care ? Well, if there are no simple ways to answer
the above questions with no, even the slightest chance that the
answer might be Yes is compelling, as any positive answer would
probably have great impact on science - but it is too early to
speculate too much about that.
So, any specific ideas about the answers to Q1a-d ?
Alain Stalder
In article <gcpK9.49596$Ti2.7639@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
"Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:
> "Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> schreef in bericht
> news:3DF9FBD2.1FD13B4A@hate.spam.net...
>
> > Start by getting it correct: Science tests for falsification. There
> > is no "truth" stated or implied. Absent empirical contradiction you
> > have a working model (theory). If it has some demonstrated sore spots
> > but is still useful, it is a heuristic.
>
> Well, everything can be better ...
>
> What about the following, using your descriptions above :
>
> Today's scientific working model contradicts empirical observation
> concerning consciousness, as it does not predict it, yet it exists.
I agree, science has its limitations.
Let me initially keep the assumption of my previous post, namely:
there is a real world with other people in it.
I described experimental data as numbers (which is Pythagoras'
idea for describing the world, the basic idea behind all exact
science), but omitted how one gets to the numbers; i.e. I did not
talk about the process of measurement.
The first thing you notice is that measurement cannot be
described using the exact methods of science: There are no
numbers yet, there is nothing yet to apply formulas to.
An experimental fact requires an agreement between people on how
to measure things. Since people only have the same opinion about
some rather direct experiences, those are what constitute the
accepted set of experimental data. These are very simple things
like, for example, how to measure the time a ball needs to drop
or how to read a dial.
Since the conscious minds of people are required to do these
measurements and to judge the validity of a measurement, it is
clear that at least that required part of consciousness is
potentially difficult to describe by science. It is arguable that
if people collectively changed their minds about what they accept
as primary experimental data, that science would be different.
I have written some concrete stuff around these issues. I did the
following: Tentatively, I accepted my personal feelings as facts,
just to see where it would lead, with the idea to find and
formulate scientific hypotheses, i.e. questions to nature that
can be answered by experiments that are again based on today's
commonly agreed rules of what is an experimental fact. In other
words, I started with something unusual, just to bring it back
into the usual in the end.
I wrapped this stuff up into a few dozen hypotheses, that span
several issues related to consciousness, but have mostly not
been accessible to exact science.
The document is available at http://www.exactphilosophy.net
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Uncle Al initially called it a "540K pdf of unjustifiable boring
crap. Even L. Ron Hubbard would puke."
I could live with boring and crap, and I would also not mind if
Ron Hubbard would puke (if he was still alive), but unjustifiable
is not correct. As Uncle Al pointed out in a previous post,
science is only falsifiable. All hypotheses in my document are
carefully crafted to be compatible with existing experimental
data. And, they are specific enough to be tested experimentally
within the next few years. Sure, the document may contain logical
errors and is debatable to some degree, but since the hypotheses
are explicitly crafted to be compatible with existing
experimental data, the best way to discuss them would be to try
to name existing experimental results in detail that falsify the
hypotheses, or else to conduct new experiments.
I cannot expose the full content here in a single thread.
Let me just say that it makes some original statements about
phenomena like telepathy or precognition (which have not been
experimentally verified so far, but also not falsified in the
specific form that I propose), and about the possibly important
role of unconscious and collective beliefs on our actions. That
would for example explain why homeopathy can be effective, not
merely for people who believe consciously in it, but even for
everybody, because it is possibly an unconscious belief that is
shared by practically everyone. For the same reasons, I also
argue that astrology has an impact on everybody's lives, not only
on people who consciously believe in it, but on everybody. It is
important to stress here, that I again view astrology as a
psychological phenomenon, that is not related to planets and
stars in the sky, but merely to unconscious and collective
beliefs about them that date back to ancient times in our
culture. I do provide a specific simple model of astrology that
is testable in a quantitative way. The foundation of the model
is closely connected to ancient greek philosophy, specifically
Aristotle's view of the four elements, which sounds reasonable,
since current (western) astrology essentially got today's form
by the ancient greeks.
I could only skim the surface here. I hope this has still
generated enough interest in the document to read it, and maybe
to discuss some of the new ideas concerning old questions in
public. I regularly check sci.physics, sci.physics.research and
alt.astrology.moderated, but if you want to be sure to reach me,
just post anywhere and mail me a copy.
Alain Stalder
--
PS: One thing about reading the document: It is intended to be
read quite strictly from beginning to end. Later sections draw
heavily on earlier hypotheses. If you start reading it somewhere
in the middle, it will almost certainly just appear to be
nonsense. Furthermore, it is written very densely, so that it
may appear to be just unconnected nonsense, merely because not
every logical connection that can be made by an intelligent
and attentive reader has been made explicit in the document.
This is the stuff you might want only to read if you have time
and are interested in a few really new ideas, say during the
christmas holidays ? It is fun and challenging. Give it a try!
In article <w2jK9.49027$Ti2.7426@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
"Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:
> With that being done, I can find lots of scientists that
> are currently researching paranormal phenomena, and
> "changed their belief for a reason" (Pauli, Einstein in the
> past, see web references for recent research on many
> universities), and that confirm the existence.
Did you have in mind to post web references for recent research
along with the post ? If yes, please post them.
I was aware of Pauli's interest in "paranormal" phenomena. He was
in contact with C. G. Jung, which shows, in my opinion, in the
quality of Jung's essay of 1952 called "Synchronicity: An
Accausal Connecting Principle" (in "The Structure and Dynamics of
the Psyche", Princeton, 1969). (I never managed to read anything
else by Jung, it was too far from anything tangible for me, I
never could tell what to remember, what was just Jung's personal
opinion and what was more generally correct. I guess Pauli's
influence must have helped a lot in that respect, at least in the
first part of the essay; after all it was Pauli who expressed his
disgust for things that are "not even false"). I am not sure
about Einstein's opinions in detail, I estimate his views were
probably quite subtle. And I would certainly be interested in
links to current researchers who do serious, careful work about
anything called "paranormal". Whether their results would confirm
anything, remains to be examined.*
I liked reading your article. I think there is original
interesting stuff in it. Thanks!
Alain Stalder
--
* This explains maybe why many physicists appear just to be
conservative. One has to be very careful before something new is
admitted into physics in form of a theory. Only if the evidence
is crystal-clear, can it be accepted in. With regard to *finding*
new theories, however, many physicists are, in my opinion, often
too conservative. The possibilities have to be explored. It is
precisely the job of a physicist to got out into the world of
possibilities where nothing is even false, and extract some
specific hypotheses from there that can be falsified or verified
in experiment (verified in this context is always meant - as
Uncle Al pointed out - in the sense of being useful as a working
model, as being of practical use, not in the sense of an absolute
eternal truth). Of course, there are also two other ways of
making progress in science, namely by expanding experiments to
new regimes and exploring the logical consequences of existing
theories, although both of them yield usually more conservative
results (but not always, and the exceptions are crucial here,
e.g. relativity and quantum mechanics).
In article <uGmK9.49358$Ti2.7563@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
"Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:
[...]
> > "Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:AylK9.49267$Ti2.7077@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
[...]
> > > Using Einstein's equivalence between gravity and
> > > accelleration, I wonder the following :
> > >
> > > I have experienced continuous acceleration of 1g
> > > since my birth, and I can not distinguish between
> > > acceleration and gravity : they are equivalent.
> > >
> > > Hence, I can conclude that I have been accelerated
> > > for several years with 1g, and I am currently moving
> > > at speeds near the velocity of light, looking from
> > > the correct framework. Acceleration is real, so
> > > my velocity is real as well.
[...]
> Question is, has anyone dealt with the gravity-
> acceleration equivalence and tried to derive a "real-
> world description" from the assumption that we are
> moving near speed of light right now?
>
> Of course, this assumed the "hidden" assumption that
> earth is flat, but that description is allowed for by the
> combination of (1) Poincaré that states that any set
> of experiences can be clarified by an infinite amount
> of different theories, and (2) a particular theory that
> explains how earth could be flat, but experienced
> spherical. The latter you can find with the above engines.
>
> I only want to know if somebody has tried to describe
> such theoretical construct from within physics.
I think what you are saying might be "not even false", unless it
is made more specific. In relativity theory, and hence in
experiment within experimental precision, acceleration is not
relative, but velocity is. Maybe relativity will be replaced by
another theory in the future, but as long you are not specific
about by what it would be replaced, it is difficult to say
something specific about the consequences. Some theories can be
excluded, some cannot.
It is very difficult to do philosophy these days. If you stay
very abstract, you can do it, but as soon as you start to discuss
some concrete things in the physical world, like velocity and
acceleration, you have to know modern physics well, else what you
are saying is almost certainly not compatible with current
theories and experiments. Sure, you can escape by saying that
there are in principle theories in which anything you are saying
would be true and compatible with experiment, but since that can
always be said, it does not help much.
The difficult part is getting specific.
In "Surely you are joking, Mr. Feynman", Feynman describes how a
high military officer told Feynman his great idea for solving the
problem of providing tanks with fuel: You simply use dirt to fuel
the tank. Accoring to Feynman, the officer thought that now that
he had solved the principal problem, it would be up to Feynman to
handle the technical details.
Note that this is not at all meant as a personal attack, I just
wanted to point out where the difficulties are in getting
physics right.
Alain Stalder
In article <XpKK9.50913$Ti2.8013@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
"Piet Holbrouck" <piet.holbrouck@pandora.be> wrote:
> The question arose from my attempt to "think in limits" :
> suppose gravity simply "is" acceleration, but we do not see
> it as such because of the way we interpret our environment
> using existing theories (earth is sphere etc.).
If you put it that way, the idea is interesting. Maybe an
equivalent picture of reality can be found that is compatible
with the mathematics of general relavity, at least I cannot
exclude that from the top of my head - but I am also not an
expert on general relativity. I will give it some thought.
Thanks again,
Alain Stalder
In article <3E1C9025.A2D5A6CB@uni-essen.de>,
Urs Schreiber <Urs.Schreiber@uni-essen.de> wrote:
> Frank Hellmann wrote:
> > A measurement of the quantum system described by rho in generally still
> > has a propability for both classically exclusive states though, so we
> > still have a superposition of classically exclusive states.
>
> The last phrase must read: "a *mixture* of classical states".
>
> Using the density operator one is bound to talk about
> statistics only. Decoherence cannot and does not explain "how"
> a system chooses from the possible outcomes a specific one
> when we measure it. Decoherence only explains how the "quantum
> probability" becomes a "classical probability", very roughly
> speaking, but it still only gives probabilities.
It is worthwhile to explain what exactly "classical" means in
this context. This is maybe most easily seen if Schroedinger's
Gedankenexperiment is combined with the experiment for testing
Bell's Inequality:
Two entangled photons fly in opposite directions and then each
pass through polarization filters. A photon detector after each
filter either kills or does not kill a cat on each side,
depending on whether the respective photon has passed through
the polarization filter.
Decoherence tells us that each cat quickly ends up in a state
with a density matrix that is practically diagonal. Or, more
loosely put, the cat is "either dead or alive, but not both".
Can we conclude that whether the cat is dead or alive is already
determined, that an experimentator who looks inside to discover
either a dead or a living cat will only note what was already
determined before ?
No, because Bell's Inequality excludes any local hidden variable
theories in which for both cats it would already be determined
whether the cats are dead or alive. In other words, "classical"
means in this context only that you cannot do interference with
Schroedinger's cats, i.e. that they statistically behave like
measured cats, but not that measurement has already occured
through decoherence.
Hence some of the "strangeness" of quantum mechanics remains,
especially if you modify the above Gedankenexperiment to include
what is typically called "Wigner's Friend". Replace each cat by
an experimentator who looks at the detector, and place two other
experimentators outside the respective labs.
Now, when does measurement occur ? When the inner experimentators
look at the detectors, or when the outer experimentators open the
doors to the respective labs and ask the guys inside about what
they have measured ? At least decoherence tells us that we cannot
distinguish experimentally between the two possibilities, because
in both cases all experimentators behave statistically classical.
In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
at least not yet.
Alain Stalder
In article <3e26ad2e_1@news.arcor-ip.de>,
Frank Hellmann <C.i.m@gmx.net> wrote:
> > In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
> > measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
> > at least not yet.
> >
> > Alain Stalder
>
> Thanks a lot, that was more or less exactly what I wanted to know there.
My first reply to the above (it may appear as the second reply
in the group, depending on in which order moderators process
the two posts) was essentially nonsense.
Concerning the consequences of decoherence for the interpretation
of measurement, the following e-print by H. D. Zeh is probably
worth reading: "What is achieved by Decoherence?", quant-ph/9610014
Alain Stalder
In article <3e26ad2e_1@news.arcor-ip.de>,
Frank Hellmann <C.i.m@gmx.net> wrote:
> > It is worthwhile to explain what exactly "classical" means in
> > this context. This is maybe most easily seen if Schroedinger's
> > Gedankenexperiment is combined with the experiment for testing
> > Bell's Inequality:
>
> [snip]
>
> Are there experiments on this interesting combination verifying the
> Gedankenexperiment?
The EPR experiment with the largest distance between detectors
that I know of is the one by the Zeilinger group of 1998, where
the distance was about 400 meters, see quant-ph/9810080 and
http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/research/bellexp
If you wanted to explicitly test something like the "Wigner's
Friend setup" that I proposed, you would have to separate the
detectors by at least a few light seconds (in order to give each
outer experimentator enough time to ask the guy inside the lab).
My motivation for doing the Gedankenexperiment was mainly to
explore the consequences of quantum mechanics, whereas an actual
experiment would only really be interesting in the, arguably
rather unlikely, case where it would yield something different
than expected from quantum mechanics.
> > In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
> > measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
> > at least not yet.
> >
> > Alain Stalder
>
> Thanks a lot, that was more or less exactly what I wanted to know there.
I hope my conclusion is correct. My understanding of decoherence
may not be deep enough, but if decoherence is just applied quantum
mechanics, a system prepared in a state |S> = a|A> + b|B>, with
|A> and |B> linearly independent, cannot be brought into a state
proportional to either |A> or |B> by any linear operator, so that
statistical experimental results that are equal to what would be
expected from some systems in state |A> and some in |B> with given
probabilities, have to come about in decoherence by considering
the system including its environment.
If this view is correct, I would be very much interested in a
simple example that makes the difference explicit.
Alain Stalder
In article <Xns9309EE696B7B4dwinemiuattbiNONcom@216.148.227.77>,
David Winsemius <dwin$emiu$@attbi.NONcom> wrote:
> I suspect that this layering of "someone has to look" on top of the
> measurement question has been very misleading. The Sun continues to shine,
> trees fall in the woods, all without experimentors. I know that common
> sense is not always the ruler in QM, but the orderly progression of the
> universe (both macro and micro) ought to but some constraints on the
> axioms.
Decoherence can be considered a step away from the special role that
the experimentator plays in the Copenhagen Interpretation, towards
a more natural description that describes everything in the world
in a unified way, i.e. in the end including experimentator and
detectors*. This shift appears at least qualitatively similar to what
happened in astronomy a few hundred years ago: With man at the center
of the universe, it was no problem to predict planetary positions
with an accuracy that was sufficient for all practical purposes, by
summing over epicycles. In retrospect, however, people did not really
have a clue what was going in the sky until people like Galilei and
Newton managed to find a different and much simpler perspective.
The future of science is always open, but it is still interesting to
note that up to now what has lead to practically all of the progress
in quantum mechanics (at low energies) has come simply from applying
the theory in new ways, and not from disagreement with experiment.
I remain curious.
Alain Stalder
--
* The informal poll that Tegmark and Wheeler mention in their SciAm
article (quant-ph/0101077) gives some indication that people are
shifting away from interpretations with an explicit collapse of the
wave function, most likely because decoherence already explains why
macroscopic objects behave statistically classical, independent of
a conscious observer.
In article <b0lg93$p5m$1@glue.ucr.edu>, baez@galaxy.ucr.edu (John Baez)
wrote:
> Eh? You can certainly find a linear operator that maps
> any state |S> = a|A> + b|B> to either |A>, or to |B>.
> You can even find a unitary one that does the job.
Yes, of course. My statement is so bluntly wrong that it
might even qualify as a case of "chess blindness".
I wrote in <astalder-C49E20.23003518012003@news.bluewin.ch>:
> My first reply to the above (it may appear as the second reply
> in the group, depending on in which order moderators process
> the two posts) was essentially nonsense.
It did appear first, what maybe rather added than removed
confusion.
Alain Stalder
In article <b3rgh4$9ic$1@reader11.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> Jean mentions March but Uranus retrogrades during the year and re-enters
> Pisces for good on 30th December. Which ingress counts?
Feeling: The crucial moment, like at birth, is when two things
meet (child/world) or separate (child/mother) for the first time,
so March 10 is more important, but December 30 has some influence
too (probably more in the short term after December 30). Like in
countries, later "founding dates" have some influence too.
Logic: Uranus switches signs three times in 2001 (into Pisces,
back into Aquarius, into Pisces again). Each moment of entry at
least influences the corresponding period from entry to exit.
Influence of the March 10 entry for a longer period cannot be
excluded.
Reality: There are no quantitative experimental results that
would allow to distinguish between the two hypotheses (first
entry influences whole resp. only the first period). Astrology
has so far essentially resisted all quantitative tests.
Fire: Astrology is not as complex as it may seem at first sight;
just like chemistry is not as complex as it appears (and
appeared to be during the middle ages). Well-defined and simple
things can be said about the 12 signs of the zodiac, see:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
I say (leo), the hypotheses can be tested experimentally. Then,
and only then, will we know for sure which moment is stronger
and to what degree. The prospects of such insights are simply
fascinating! Take a look at a whole new world of possibilites,
visit http://www.exactphilosophy.net today and the world will
forever be changed !
The world is both the sum and in-between these four elements,
between the naive imagination of fire and today's hard facts,
between the logical possibilities and how it feels to be.
I think the next few years will be quite a bit also about
enjoying the beauty of the world with all its possibilities
and secrets, although most possibilities will remain imagined
"only" and will have to wait to be realized until Uranus moves
forward into Aries in 2010 or so ...
Alain Stalder
--
|:| :|:
Franz Kafka - Das Schloss
The unfinished novel "Das Schloss" (the castle/lock) by Franz Kafka
was written probably between late January and August 1922. Since at
that time Uranus was near the beginning of Pisces (as it is now) and
Kafka's horoscope has some properties that give his writings quite
a universal touch (both very abstract and very concrete through the
MC-IC axis Aries-Libra and very universal through Jupiter and sun
at the beginning of the 12th house - both in Cancer, like the USA),
I think the novel shows quite a few similarities to current events.
In the novel K. tries to cheat his way through, does not know about
the existence of the castle initially and yet pretends that the
count ordered him to come as a land surveyor. In other words, K.
went there without being asked to and lies about why he came there.
He remembers how in the days before his arrival he had advanced
steadily through deep snow, but now somehow the progress slows
down; when he tries to walk to the castle the day after his arrival,
the road seems rather to go around the castle than lead to it. In
the end he is stuck in deep snow and a farmer has to lay out a board
for him to step on. In other words, the aquarian focus on a unified
goal towards progress dissolves, because now other, more diverse
topics should get conscious attention. K. avoids (or fails) to make
contact with the people in the village and to understand them.
Instead he continues in his imagined fight to reach the castle. It is
also from that mindset that he ends up with Frieda who he saw
connected with a civil servant, but exactly through his sleeping with
her, he looses that connection.
And so on...
(The german original based on Kafka's handwritten manuscript is freely
available online at http://www.kafka.org/projekt/schloss/schloss.html ,
they also have a link to a good english translation, which is available
from amazon.com)
One myth fits many realities and one reality fits many myths. So I do
not want to overemphasise the associations that everybody immediately
makes today. It would at least be unfair towards Kafka's work that
goes well beyond that.
But it is true that many people are remaining stiffly focussed on their
goals of which they often falsely assume that others share them. This
appears to hit especially older people and the generation with Pluto in
Leo, a fixed sign, searching for a holy grail that will evaporate into
nothing, because they are failing to ask what purpose the grail serves.
Aries can often just do what he feels is right, based on a direct
realistic need, but Leo has to ensure that he applies his superior
burning focus only where it is desired by the world - just his own
egoistic needs are not sufficient. So the wheel turns on and the lion
will be wounded, as it is apparently necessary. After Pandora had
opened the box, and all the vices that Prometheus had tried to suppress
escaped, only hope remained in the box.
Say it in broken english...
Alain Stalder
(written in about 1 hour, starting at about 11 pm)
--
Could have come through anytime,
Cold lonely, puritan
What are you fighting for ?
It's not my security.
-- Marianne Faithful in Broken English
http://www.mondojohnson.com/songs/brokenenglish.php
3+1
There is an interesting and maybe soothing connection between
recent global events:
1 - Dec 2000 George W. Bush President
2 - Sep 2001 Terrorist Attacks on USA
3 - Jun 2002 (Discovery of Quaoar ?)
4 - Mar 2003 Iraq War
(Don't worry, the text below will not be political, except maybe
in very broad terms)
The time difference between these four events is nine months
each, the time it takes for a baby to grow inside the mother's
belly, the time between conception and birth.
To the ancient greeks, numbers not only denoted quantities, but
also had quality.
The number 1 is unity, the beginning of the world. Unity
naturally splits into 2 opposites. When two things meet, like two
people, or two thoughts in the mind, or two chemical substances,
sometimes something new emgerges, hence number 3. The ancient
greeks associated the number pi (3.1414926...) with perfect
harmony, because it relates the diameter of a circle to its
circumference, and a circle represents harmony because all its
points are equal, are in equilibrium.
Hence it is understandable that the ancient greeks considered the
number 4 to be rather disharmonious, because it is about 6/7
bigger than pi, but still necessary to close the circle because
of the 1/7 that is needed to close the cycle. There are, for
example, quite a few fairy tales in which the third son of a king
or the third daughter is different from his/her older siblings
and the king (i.e. 3 are similar, the fourth is diffferent), but
it is usually only the 3rd child, the 4th in the group, that is
able to solve the families problems. In real families, the first
child (no. 3 in the family) is often more like the parents than
the second child (no. 4), who is quite sometimes rather the
"black sheep" of the family, the one that is considered less able
because he/she is different than the older 3.
There is also a clear connection between the numbers 1-4 and the
four astrological elements, which is maybe seen most easily from
meanings of aspects. Conjunction (division of the full circle of
360 by 1, 360=0), symbolizes unity, the melting of the purposes
of the involved planets into a single goal. It is related to the
element fire, which creates (unified visions), as fire produces
light.
The number 2 corresponds to opposition (360/2 = 180), symbolizing
the fight between the involved planets, and the element air (as
seen e.g. in the duality of Gemini and Libra's balancing of
opposites). The number 3 corresponds to the trine (360/3 = 120),
which represents harmony and passivity, which is understandable,
as 3 is just a bit smaller than pi, whereas 4 stands for squares
(360/4 = 90) that are disharmonious and force to act, and yet are
necessary for things to evolve. Trines are related to water, also
because 3 is born out of the union between two parents, i.e. 3
symbolizes also fate. The number 4 belongs to the fourth element,
earth, reality. This can also be seen from the fact that a grand
square is also a cross with two oppositions, where the cross is
the abstract notion of the tree, an important archetype of the
element earth.
These general meanings of numbers appear more often than expected
in reality. For example, on 9/11, four planes were destroyed and
everybody inside killed. The first two planes hit the twin towers
of the World Trade Center in New York. In other words, there is a
clear connection to air, especially to Gemini and Libra, because
it is *twin* towers and World *Trade* Center (the word merchant,
for example, comes from Mercury, the roman name for Hermes, the
greek god associated with Gemini).
The third plane hit the Pentagon, which can certainly be called
the heart of America's defence. The heart is where feelings are
considered to be, it symbolizes emotions, water. The fourth plane
crash was different. For one, the people inside the plane already
started to fight the terrorists, because they already knew what
was coming up. And possibly the plane was in addition shot down
by the US military, as some people suggested. Independently of
what happened exactly, the fourth plane crash was already part of
America's reaction to it, because it was Americans that started
to act and fight.
On a larger time scale, as suggested on top of this text, 9/11
with its grand trine in water signs, including Mercury at the
ascendent, and with its twin World Trade Towers fits well with
air and the number 2. As usual in the USA, americans accepted
their new president fully, independently of how narrowly he was
elected. (This reminds me a bit of what happens during birth, of
which Cancer is a symbol, namely that there are various people
interested in giving part of their fate to the to be born child,
but once the child is born, that is the moment that counts,
independently of whether, say, the father would have wanted a
different MC, those influences vanish). The fourth moment, the
war in Iraq appears to have the quality to close the circle, also
leaving open what exactly will follow next.
Of course, I do not know if the proposed third moment (Quaoar) is
really of global significance, the future will show. I have
mostly chosen it, because I could not see any important global
event happening around that time, but maybe I am wrong.
Shortly after World War II, the physicist Richard Feynman went
from Los Alamos, where he had helped to built the atomic bomb, to
Caltech, where he got a job as a professor. He describes that on
the train to LA, he wrote the first part of a lecture that he was
supposed to give at Caltech. He writes that at Los Alamos, they
always finished things just on time, so that he was astonished
when he arrived at Caltech and was told that lectures would not
start until the following week and that they had invited him
earlier so that he might have time to look around, search for a
place to stay etc. He writes that then he knew then that he was
back in zivilisation.
I guess most astrologers have noticed by now that that was very
probably shortly after the Saturn-Pluto opposition near the end
of WWII. Similarly, there have been 3 exact Saturn-Pluto
oppositions recently, and a relatively close encounter (no. 4)
one more time in March this year.
So, it is for these various general symbolic and astrological
reasons that I think that the immediate future will likely be a
bit less stressful for many people, that there will be more time
to look at things more than one time and to be more open for all
kinds of things, and to enjoy them again.
The American Dream is not only dreamt in the USA, in fact it is
maybe even mostly dreamt outside of, in all the countries who
have sent emigrants into it, in the hope that they will make the
world in the age of Aquarius a more human place to be. That is
also why America is judged more severely by countries outside of
it than any other country, exactly because people care.
Like everybody, I have no chance to really understand what is
really going on in the world, why things happen the way they
happen. It would be very interesting only to know what exactly
happened for one single small event, seen from all possible
angles, but that is probably not possible. In the science fiction
novel Solaris* by Stanislaw Lem, the ocean is at one point fed
with strong radiation that is modulated by the brain waves of the
psychologist Kelvin (maybe a bit like people on the internet are
writing posts to internet news groups). Relatively shortly
afterwards, the ocean produced a new structure, something that
nobody had ever seen before, maybe related to the radiation, but
probably not in any way that would be understandable by
individuals, since the ocean produced maybe two or three really
new things per year anyway, a bit like our own world we are
living in.
I will write down the things I found out about astrology, like
meanings of numbers** or, most importantly, how the signs of the
zodiac can be described by simple variations of just four
elementary archetypes, one for each element. The publication will
be honest, direct and easily understandable, with lots of
illustrations for people who are not as well in thinking
abstractly as a physicist. The simple model of astrology will not
only be helpful for novices to learn astrology, as Ray Murphy
suggested to my initial post about it, but will very probably go
well beyond it. Due to its simplicity, an important part of it
will likely become universal knowledge, including being
understandable and hence provable for scientists.
I made the decision to publish in the way described above already
in summer 2002, just about a couple of months after my initial
newsgroup posts announcing the discoveries. But people are like
ants. If you have ever observed a street by ants to their food,
you will probably have noticed that individual ants are very far
from just following the road, they move left and right and often
even back and forth, probably because they do not "see" the road,
they only smell the chemicals that mark the street and are trying
to follow it as well as they can, just like human individuals are
trying to understand the forces acting on them by means like
looking at a horoscope, and even if they know where it is
supposed to be going, they (like especially me) are too stupid to
actually follow it in a straight line, but maybe even that is
necessary for things to unfold as they should.
At the end of the novel Solaris, Kelvin says that he hopes that
the "time of the cruel wonders" is not over yet. I hope they will
not be so cruel for most of us, and even though recent events
have taken quite a toll psychologically, it is maybe important to
keep proportions: Compared to WWII including the Holocaust and
Stalins' deportations and killing of many million people, we are
living in very happy times -- please help to ensure it stays so
in the future.
Thanks, and bye for the moment,
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* If you have seen the recent movie "Solaris", rest assured it
has very little to do with the novel. Unfortunately, the english
translation of the novel is also not very true to the book, but
at least you get essentially the intended story. (The book is
also interesting especially for astrologers, because it is a very
detailed description of Pisces (the ocean that is more complex
than individual imagination by Virgo (the sun sign of the
author)).
** I heard of the basic meanings of numbers, including that "the
fourth is different" the first time during a seminar by Liz
Greene (about trines, I think), but the association with pi and
between numbers and elements is from me (although I cannot
exclude that other people have made the same associations
independently before me, if there is such a thing as independent
thoughts anyway)
II: I::
Here is a trick that allows to use Delphi, a free and easy to use
astrology program for Palm OS devices, on a windows PC. Essentially
the trick is to use a tool that Palm Inc. is offering for software
developers for testing their software on a PC. Until recently,
installing such a tool was quite technical, but now most people
should be able to do it, if they are willing to download a 5 MB
file and to do a few initial installation steps manually.
Here are the steps in detail:
1) Download the Palm OS 5 Simulator:
http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/simulator/Palm_OS_52_Simulator_Rel.zip
(4.9 megabytes, ca. 20-30 min with a 56k modem)
(if that link stops working in the future, try
http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools and click your way through)
2) Start "PalmSim.exe" and choose a ROM file (there are currently
three variants: US english, japanese and a multi-language
version called EFIGS for english/french/italian/german/spanish)
3) Install Delphi by dragging the three files "Delphi.prc",
"astrolib.prc" and MathLib.prc" over the simulator
4) Click through the initial stuff on the simulator, then check
that Delphi works
5) Click with the right mouse button anywhere in the simulator
window and choose "Storage"->"Save..."
6) Click the "Save" button in the appearing dialogue to save
the state of the simulator
7) Exit the simulator by closing its window
8) Start the simulator (PalmSim.exe) again and click with the
right mouse button in the window and select
"Storage"->"Load...", click the "Open" button
9) Now you can use Delphi again. Saved charts should still be
there, as well as Delphi's preferences, like the city for
the astrological clock (provided you saved the state of the
simulator last time you changed something in Delphi)
That's it.
Delphi's web site:
http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29
delphi29@excite.com
In article <b7lq9l01nnq@drn.newsguy.com>,
ozymandias <ozymandias_member@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >>And then the ideas of manifest destiny,
> >>resulted in the expansion of the colonies and the foundation of a new world
> >>order, the United States of America.
> >
> >RM: I thought the 'New World Order' conspiracy was a fairly recent
> >project which was being promoted by members of the Fabian Society.
>
> Fabian Society what's that? I'm not talking about a dance party. Anyway the
> term "New world order" was coined by Ex George Bush, the senior. He used it near
> the end of his term in office. I think our incursion into Iraq, might have
> something to do with it. Its President George Bush Jr's fight to end terror in
> the world, by using the U.S to police these troubled spots on the world.
On the back of the US dollar bill*, there is a latin inscription**:
"novus ordo seclorum" (novus=new, ordo=order, saeculorum=to all eternity,
without end, lifetime, age). Different countries have different fates
and hence different tasks in the world. But even for large countries
it would very likely by Hybris to assume the monopoly on all aspects
of an entire age. Take care.
Alain Stalder
* http://www.enchantedlearning.com/math/money/bills/one
** The inscription on the Great Seal of the US dates back to its
founding years and was apparently inspired by a poem by Virgil
from the first century BC: http://www.afrd.org/novus.htm
In article <8_kxa.142$po1.9028@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>,
"Martin Lewicki" <skygazer@nospam.com> wrote:
> Yet again, a reason to standardize time recording to the unambiguous
> UT for astrological data - as the astronomers and every other
> time-dependent institutions have been doing now for decades! It is
> time for astrologers to drag themselves out of the 19th century and
> make the conversion of the chart to UT before publication and include
> it with the given time. Then we can reduce time-zone *stuff-ups* by
> subsequent users, re-publishers and redistributors of the chart data.
> Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes sets the example!
>
> Martin Lewicki - at time zone 9h30m east
I can see the problem, but for many charts there is probably
no way around publishing both local time and offset to UTC,
because these pieces of information typically come from
different sources: The time of birth is ususally recorded
on a birth certificate or in hospital records in local time,
whereas time zones are recorded separately at country or
state or community level, if at all.
Of course nowadays in many places there are clear rules
for calculating the time zone, but not so far in the past
this was quite different (like in the 60's in the US when
various farmers opposed daylight savings time).
Alain Stalder @705*
--
* That's in Swatch internet time:
http://www.swatch.com/fs_index.php?haupt=itime
In article <astalder-656F2C.17582617052003@news.bluewin.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <8_kxa.142$po1.9028@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>,
> "Martin Lewicki" <skygazer@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Yet again, a reason to standardize time recording to the unambiguous
> > UT for astrological data - as the astronomers and every other
> > time-dependent institutions have been doing now for decades! It is
> > time for astrologers to drag themselves out of the 19th century and
> > make the conversion of the chart to UT before publication and include
> > it with the given time. Then we can reduce time-zone *stuff-ups* by
> > subsequent users, re-publishers and redistributors of the chart data.
> > Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes sets the example!
> >
> > Martin Lewicki - at time zone 9h30m east
>
> I can see the problem, but for many charts there is probably
> no way around publishing both local time and offset to UTC,
> because these pieces of information typically come from
> different sources: The time of birth is ususally recorded
> on a birth certificate or in hospital records in local time,
> whereas time zones are recorded separately at country or
> state or community level, if at all.
>
> Of course nowadays in many places there are clear rules
> for calculating the time zone, but not so far in the past
> this was quite different (like in the 60's in the US when
> various farmers opposed daylight savings time).
>
> Alain Stalder @705*
>
> --
> * That's in Swatch internet time:
> http://www.swatch.com/fs_index.php?haupt=itime
Looks like the trickster got me for a change: I thought
you meant to publish UTC only, while you meant (and I
hope I am getting it right this time) to publish UTC
_and_ local time...
Alain Stalder
In article <BAF53648.5047%Libralove@austin.rr.com>,
Libralove <Libralove@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> In the recent issue of "Urania" Kathleen Hanna says,
>
> "It is most unwise to ignore "lunar eclipses" (Full Moons), or to consider
> them of less power or importance than the showier "solar eclipses" (New
> Moons).
I have little direct experience with the psychological impacts
of eclipses, but after having experienced a total solar eclipse,
I am rather sceptical about the *second part* of the statement.
A partial solar eclipse is emotionally not much more exciting
than a lunar one: the sun becomes a crescent instead of a disk,
but its brightness does not drop much. But during the minute or
so of totality, brightness drops to the one during a bright
full moon's night, and nature reacts noticeably, it gets more
quiet and you can feel people and nature in general react
emotionally. It is not uncommon that people who have been at
one total solar eclipse travel to the see and especially feel
the next one, even if it is on the other end of the world.
As far as I know, solar eclipses are in principle not more
uncommon than lunar ones, but they are only visible within
a narrow band on earth, whereas lunar eclipses are practially
visible from an entire hemisphere. Hence, if you stay at one
place (like most people during the middle ages), solar eclipses
(and especially total ones) appear to be much more special and
rare events than lunar eclipses.
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
I have never really been able to put the finger on what the nodes
mean in a chart. This may already say a lot about what they are
about. Anyway, in this post I would like to present how the nodes
look from several different perspectives. In other words, I will
try to hold the nodes in my hand and quickly turn them around and
look at them from different sides, before they can change too much.
This seems a fitting approach for the season (sun in Gemini and
Gemini solar eclipse approaching) and, as I hope to show, also for
the nodes themselves. On the other hand, this means also that I
will not be able to provide transparency about what the nodes mean,
only maybe some ground (the matrix) for later analysis.
Let me start with some things that astrologer Thomas Ring said in
a seminar in Copenhagen in 1974 [1]. He considers the northern
node, the point where the moon passes from below the ecliptic
to above it, the entrance into the unconscious, vegetative life.
He also says that the nodes are no force, but are receptive,
i.e. they are influenced by planets in aspect, but do not put
any force against them. (I would interpret that such that the
planets in aspect do not feel any counterreaction, except maybe
notice some loss of energy)
Some symbols that immediately spring to mind and are related to
the axis Gemini/Sagittarius: The symbols for the nodes look like
gates; the name Thomas appears to mean twin; Thomas was one of
the twelve appostels, the one that looked almost like Jesus;
the full name of the hero Neo (anagram for the "One") in the just
released blockbuster movie "The Matrix Reloaded" is Thomas Anderson;
the word "matrix" comes from "mother"; the movie shows quite a
few traits of the axis Gemini-Sagittarius, see for example the
following article that relates The Matrix to Gnosticism and
to Buddism [2].
Let me switch to a different angle. In a recent thread at
alt.astrology.tropical, I was sceptical about a cited statement
that lunar eclipses should not be considered of less importance
than solar ones. Superficially, this may sound similar to the
fairy tale of the sleeping beauty, where the king does not
respect the 13th fairy enough, i.e. he puts the 12 solar months
above the 13 lunar ones. But if one looks more closely at
eclipses, it is exactly in solar eclipses that the moon plays
the strongest role, it is a mercurian twist that their names
indicate something different:
In a lunar eclipse, the earth (the ground beyond us) shields some
light from the sun to arrive on the moon and then be reflected back
to earth to be seen by us. This may already say quite a bit about
lunar eclipses. Some associations: sun and moon are opponents with
the earth standing between them; there is an additional brief new
moon phase at full moon, an additional phase of conception or of
contemplation, of looking inward. Sure this is somewhat unusual,
but not that unusual as it happens every year and then is visible
from the entire nightern hemisphere.
Solar eclipses are different beasts. Contrary to the moon, the
sun normally does not have phases, it remains a shining disk all
year long. During a solar eclipse, the moon stands between sun
and earth and forces/gives the sun a female phase of coneption.
If the eclipse is total, during the few minutes of totality,
brighness drops to almost the one during a bright full moon's
night; i.e. sun and moon almost meet in brighness, day and night
meet at twilight.
Quick interlude of associations: in greek mythology, Hermes left
the cave where he was born twice on the day he was born, the first
time during the day to kill a tortoise just outside the cave and
to build a lyre out of the tortoise's shell; the second time he
travelled far during the night and stole 50 cattle from Apollon [3];
what does the sun conceive at the moment of totality ? - maybe
what is symbolized by the sign it is in or by the related planets;
maybe this makes this coming eclipse more Gemini, maybe more so
than generally (note that this will not be a total eclipse, only
an annular one, i.e. the moon will be too far from earth in
relation to the sun to totally cover it up, so that a ring will
be visible of the sun at the moment of most coverage.
Without conscious intention, this brings me back to Thomas *Ring*.
I think the nodes (and hence also eclipses which are bound to occur
around the nodes) are quite a bit about the axis between Gemini and
Sagittarius, about letting things come up from the unconscious and
letting it sink back, about quick and slow, interface and overview,
about defending and opening gates (the roman god Janus, for example,
is sometimes shown carrying a key in one hand and a stick in the
other, to open or defend gates). The movie "The Matrix Reloaded",
released just around this year's lunar eclipse, provides very
probably quite a few more insights into these themes, if you look at
it from a more philosophical standpoint (say, dialogues detached from
the pictures, the different quickness of motion switching between
fighting very quickly and almost freezing motion, agents that
duplicate themselves, etc).
Finally, let me note that the horoscope is part of the matrix of
a human life (or maybe one way of looking at that matrix). This
also corresponds to Hermes living in a cave, with his mother Maya.
She notes that he leaves the cave at times, but does not prohibit
it from happening, as Hermes is part of the Matrix, has the role
to make it evolve.
(Hermes is also associated with Virgo; there are more hermetian
aspects to the analysis that an astrologer/counselor makes than
usually recognized; a primary element is that the astrologer
typically tends to exclude her-/himself from the picture and looks
at the chart and the other person like he/she was an outsider and
unconnected observer, not really connected to the fate of the
individual asking the question that the architect in the reloaded
matrix considered the most irrelevant one, namely "Why am I here ?")
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
[1] The seminar is available at http://www.astro.com but only in
german (as well as the full 4 tomes of his "Astrologische
Menschenkunde", in german too)
http://www.astro.com/h/ring_g.htm
One more hint: Thomas Ring had the sun in Sagittarius and
Pluto (in conjunctiuon with Neptune) in Gemini
[2] http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/new_phil_wakeup.html
[3] This is a story from the Homeric Hymns (which are probably not
really from Homer, but that does no harm):
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Hesiod/hymns.html
(look for the chapter "To Hermes", the story is quite short
and readable, revealing also quite a bit about Sagittarius
resp. Zeus, who appears in my opinion twice in the story,
once as Zeus and the other time in disguise as an "old man
tilling his flowering vineyard" who eventially drops word
to Apollon about who had stolen his cattle...)
PS: The jupiter-neptune opposition tends to go unnoticed -- even though
I wanted touch it here, almost forgot about to mention it again...
In article <jsrBa.16603$8g5.279388@news2.e.nsc.no>,
"Vero" <veronisc@frisurf.no> wrote:
> I know for sure that the southern node is the crybaby and that if another
> person has its venus there, you shouldn't do much, it will be you suffering,
> not the venus person.
>
> *v*
Thanks a lot. It is always hard for me to tell where ideas come
from, to tell who or what contributed to it. Well, this morning
I had the following additional idea about nodes:
If nodes are gates through which energy from planets flows,
then maybe that is connected to why there are apparently
more earthquakes with people affected around eclipses than
at most other times*. After all, earthquakes are scientifically
nothing else than the release of tensions within earth.
Almost the same can be said about volcano eruptions.
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* Just this week I read the comment of a scientist who said
that there are not more earthquakes around eclipses, that
this time they just happened in places where more people are
affected. That would fit quite well with what I said above.
I find it a pity and quite unscientific that most scientists
exclude some hypotheses a priori. Reminds me of a swiss joke
that I told another physicist on usenet last year:
Daellebach Kari is standing at night around a street lamp
and appears to look for something on the floor. Somebody
walks by and ask Kari "What have you lost, Kari?" - "My watch"
- "Where did you lose it?" - "Well, back there it that dark
alley." - "But then why are you looking for it here ?" -
"Because there is more light here."
It is a lot easier for scientists to stay in the light and
ignore most possibilities beyond it. It is also true that in
the dark alley, the chances to actually find something are
quite small, and you can get lost or hurt yourself a bit if
you are not careful. Chances are best in the twilight, at the
interface between light and dark, which returns me to the
theme proposed in the previous post, Gemini/Sagittarius.
In article <bb60n4$67m$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Pete P" <pdmarch13@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Given that I'm currently obsessed with the concept of stellar parans, as
> defined by Bernadette Brady in her book "Fixed Stars", I thought it
> might be a fun idea to regularly take a look at some of the more
> "interesting" stars, and how they have played their part in shaping the
> character and destiny of well-known individuals.
> When I say "interesting stars", I don't necessarily mean the more well
> known ones, either - like Spica, Regulus, Algol, Antares, etc., although
> there's no reason why they can't be included - no, I'm talking about
> those stars that add a certain interesting twist to a life, either
> literally or symbolically, even if that star might seem like a tiny,
> flickering candle alongside the real "giants", like Betelgeuse,
> Fomalhaut, or Aldebaran. The star may not be playing lead violin in the
> orchestra, but it's amazing what a difference that single cello can make
> to a symphony!
I just want to recommend an additional source for information
about fixed stars on the web, namely the web site by Anne Wright:
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew
She has lots of material about practically all fixed stars,
for example, for Alhena she adds (citing her sources) also
meanings like "hurt" or "the wound in the tendon of Achilles",
or what conjunctions of Alhena with planets could mean:
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Alhena.html
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <bb7fmk$a1u$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Pete P" <pdmarch13@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-8E9C11.09080930052003@news.bluewin.ch...
[...]
> > I just want to recommend an additional source for information
> > about fixed stars on the web, namely the web site by Anne Wright:
> >
> > http://www.winshop.com.au/annew
> >
> > She has lots of material about practically all fixed stars,
> > for example, for Alhena she adds (citing her sources) also
> > meanings like "hurt" or "the wound in the tendon of Achilles",
> > or what conjunctions of Alhena with planets could mean:
> >
> > http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Alhena.html
> >
> > Alain Stalder
>
> Thanks, Alain...
> it's a really good resource site for the fixed stars. The only problem
> with it, as I see it, is that she gives the star's longitude as
> projected onto the ecliptic, which *isn't necessarily where the star is
> in the sky*, depending upon one's geographical latitude of birth, and is
> therefore not of much use in paran work.
> Having said that, her explanations of how the stars got their names, and
> the history of each, make fascinating reading!
>
> cheers,
> --
> Pete
Not being a professional astrologer (I am a physicist), I had
never heard of Bernadette Brady. I took a look on the web and
I can see the difference.
Thanks a lot and good luck everybody with this newsgroup,
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Thanks very much Sharyn for being the first person to ask me something
about my discoveries. I was really convinced this time that I would no
longer post (after about 100 newsgroup posts during the last year).
I feel a bit like in an oriental bazar, where to get a fair price, you
often have to walk out with the conviction not to buy. Please let me
answer your questions and comments in almost reversed order (I have a
retrograde mercury at the end of the 12th house and at the beginning
of Leo; I was born 1966-08-07 04:12 in Zurich, Switzerland, that's
03:12 UTC, i.e. early on a Sunday morning in August, or maybe more
precisely at the end of a Saturday night during the Summer of Love,
just weeks after the last Uranus-Pluto conjunction).
So I will give it a try here.
In article <r3SCa.1964$xM5.1809365@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
"Sharyn" <sharyn721@adelphia.not> wrote:
> I sent this reply to the group and by email, since you sounded like maybe
> you might not be back to read more. I hope you don't mind, but I would love
> to hear more from you. Any time an actual scientist gets involved in
> astrology in any way (except for bashing it), talks about testing
> hypotheses, etc, I'm enthusiastic!
I know there are not many, at least not openly. The only other physicist
I know of, is Alois Treindl from Astrodienst (astro.com). But let me
first
get to the meat, to the discoveries:
[paragraph 3 of abstract]
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially composed of
> simple, opposing principles which originate from ancient greek philosophy.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the star sign,
> different inner planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
> different classes of people. The meanings associated with star signs
> themselves derive from different mixtures of the four classical elements,
> more specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from one
> element to another. The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be
> verified quantitatively.
The key discovery here is that there is a simple structure hidden
in all the mythology and tales about the 12 star signs of the
zodiac. I found a structure that explains already quite a bit of
the key features of the signs in terms of archetypes for the
*elements* (i.e. archetypes for elements, not signs as usual) and
the transitions between them. Thereby I closely adhere to the
philosophy of Aristotle, who described the elements and their
transitions in terms of very basic properties like hot/cold and
wet/dry.
Before I give a concrete example, let me just mention the
advantages that such a more simple model of astrology has despite
its necessary initial loss of richness of description:
a) From a purely practical point of view, the simpler a model is,
the simpler it is to prove its correctness (or incorrectness)
with the exact quantitative methods of science.
b) Most scientists are men and the complexity of astrological
predictions is usually not accessible to them. A simpler model
that they can compare to their experience, probably with some
help by their women, is necessary to convince scientists that
there is something worth to investigate.
c) Maybe most importantly, a basic understanding of astrology by
everybody on this planet could help to solve future conflicts
more peacefully, be it on a personal level or at the level of
companies or countries etc.
d) The model is beautiful in its simplicity; it provides the
ground for all the more complex myths and stories without
restricting them, only providing them some obvious and stable
underlying structure.
Let me take the Fire signs for example. In this case, the
essential archetypal image that I will use is simply the three
stages of a burning fire. My hypothesis is that Aries corresponds
to a fire that has just started to burn, Leo corresponds to a
fire that is fully burning and Sagittarius corresponds to a fire
that is about to end.
Imagine a fire. What does it do in terms of transforming the
elements ? It transforms wood (Earth) to smoke (Air). In other
words, the transition is Earth via Fire to Air.
Earth, the physical body, is wounded. This corresponds to the
wound that, say, Liz Greene, associates with both Leo and
Sagittarius (not much with Aries, since the fire has just started
to burn and most of the wood is still there). There is, for
example, Chiron's wound in the lower part of his body (the
earthier part because of the sexual organs), while his head (Air)
becomes free to imagine. Or there is the Grail's king with his
wound that is related to Leo. Aries impulsivity can be related to
the first parts of the wood that start to burn, that do not cause
much pain yet, but still gets him going.
A bit more philosophyically and abstractly, the imagination and
transformative power of Fire creates from within the human body
(Earth) ideas and knowledge (Air) that can be transmitted to
later generations and thus become immortal. Hence an additional
image that can be associated to Aries/Leo/Sagittarius is
animal/man(or king)/god.
As an immediate consequence, Aries is the most mortal of the Fire
signs. Due to his mortality, he has to protect the few things he
found out, he has to be less open than Leo or Sagittarius, he has
also to make sure that he has enough money and goods to survive
on his own. This makes him also quite egoistic, even more so than
Leo. But for Aries this is not much of a problem yet. But Leo, in
contrast, is between Earth and Air, has to balance his own
egoistic needs with the collective need for more knowledge and
visions (and the egoism is also more apparent because Leo is a
fixed sign, whereas Aries simply choses another goal whenever
he meets to much resistance in a particular direction).
There are more examples related to this image of burning fire,
let me just mention two of them:
a) Aries is associated with Amun, the invisible egyptian creator
god, the hidden one, the force behind the wind. Now, in order to
get a fire going, you have to blow, that is the force that Aries
constantly feels behind him. The invisibility is related to the
secrecy above and also to the fact that the wind (Air) is
invisible.
b) Zeus is the one who throws lightning down to earth, and in
nature this at least appears very random. Similarly, a fire, and
in my recollection (that may be biased), mostly a fire that is
about to end, emits some random sparks. This fits also with
Sagittarius' free improvisation, with his shooting of arrows into
seemingly random directions, leaving everybody the freedom to
catch an arrow or not, before it sinks back to the ground, to
unconsciousness.
Now let me relate that more directly to Aristotle's philosophy.
According to him [1], the basic properties are properties that
can be touched. In [1], he reduces these properties to the
following two pairs of oppositions:
dry/wet (indentified also with hard/soft, brittle/malleable)
hot/cold (or male/female)
Now, the elements are composed as follows:
Earth: dry+cold
Fire: hot+dry
Air: wet+hot
Water: cold+wet
These four elements form a circle: Make Earth hot and you get
Fire, make Fire wet and you get Air, make Air cold and you get
Water, and finally make Water dry and you get Earth again (in
other words, a direct transition Earth-Fire-Air-Water is
possible, but Earth-Air and Fire-Water can only be transformed
into each other by passing through an intermediate element).
I cannot go into all four elements here, let me just mention the
essential transitions and archetypes:
Fire: Earth-Fire-Air -- a fire burns wood to smoke
Water: Earth-Water-Air -- ice (Earth) melts to water and evaporates (Air)
Air: Fire-Air-Water -- cloud (Air) -> lightning (Fire) and rain (Water)
Earth: Fire-Earth-Water -- tree (Earth) needs sunlight (Fire) and water
I have to admit that in my document at http://www.exactphilosophy.net
the style is very condensed, much like in scientific publications. That
makes it difficult to follow all the thoughts behind the words. If there
is interest, I can describe the other three elements here and specify
or elaborate where asked for.
[1] Aristotle, On Generation and Corruption
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8gc/
(see mainly chapter 2 and 3 of book II)
[from paragraph 3 of abstract]
> [...] Meanings associated with the star sign,
> different inner planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
> different classes of people. [...]
This is the other half of the simple model that I propose. The
hypothesis is essentially that different inner planets correspond to
how people relate/behave/like to behave relative to other people:
- the moon how a mother is towards her children and also how a
child is towards his/her mother
- accordingly, the sun how a father is towards his children and
also how a child is towards his/her father
- Venus how anybody (men/women) are towards women of roughly their
age (excluding syblings), and especially towards female lovers
- Mars how anybody (men/women) are towards men of roughly their
age (excluding syblings), and especially towards male lovers
- Mercury how anybody (men/women) is toward syblings
- These meanings also extend to people in similar roles; the
behaviour towards mother, for example, also extends to the
behaviour towards an older female teacher
I am aware that part of the above hypothesis is according to
common beliefs and part of it is rather not (and, of course, I am
fully aware that there is a lot more to planets than mentioned
above). As a physicist, I am more interested in finding out if it
is so, than to promote my opinion. But let me still present the
advantages of a simple model like the one above:
By relating the influences of planets, you get a simple matrix
that is suitable for experimental tests of astrology. Take, say,
1000 families and ask them about how they perceive the other
members of their family or maybe just observe them. This gives
you a lot of specific data. If the average family has 6 members,
you get 15 relations and hence for 1000 families 15'000 pieces of
information that you can compare to the above model for the star
signs that makes quite simple and concrete predictions like that
Aries is more secretive than Sagittarius, etc.
There may be technical differences, maybe synastry or the time
when questions are asked blur things out sufficiently. But I
think that in order to convince sceptical scientists, the model
that is tested has to be simple, otherwise there are too many
loopholes for sceptics to questions things. Anyway, let me get to
the other part of my hypotheses, a suggested physical background
for astrology and other phenomena.
> I found this on your web site http://www.exactphilosophy.net/:
> "A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1 symmetry and can
> be felt across global distances and through the earth. The exact physical
> nature of the effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
> i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future
> theoretical explanation.
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of phenomena
> like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also made plausible how
> astrology and other ancient mythological beliefs have persisted
> unconsciously until today and continue to influence our fates by means of
> collective emotional feedback.
Let me first try to present the idea very quickly and then
elaborate a bit:
The main hypothesis is that feelings reach further than commonly
assumed.
Say, you are having an argument with your partner. Then you can
usually feel the tension in the appartment or house. That tension
remains, in my view, also when the partner is in a different
room, even if nothing can be heard (although one has to be very
careful here with drawing conclusions, unconsciously quite weak
sounds may still be registered). But leaving the house, going for
a walk and maybe better for a drive often eases the tension.
Now, if feelings reach far, people are generally connected to
each other, even if they don't see or consciously know each
other. That creates sort of a large brain, which, according to my
hypotheses, could have its own mind, its own intentions. Now,
these intentions would be built by the brain (let me call it the
collective unconscious), but also, in turn, influence every
person that is part of it.
In my view, that is the immediate reason why astrology works even
for people who do not believe it. They are emotionally still part
of the collective unconscious, of its knowledge of the world that
has evolved during thousands of years and that is, for example,
expressed in terms of astrology.
This hypothesis has an important advantage towards sceptical
scientists. In the immediate view (but very likely not in in the
ultimate one), it reduces astrology to a cultural phenomenon that
is detached from the actual stars. The usual prominent argument
against astrology, namely that due to the precession of the
earth's axis, somebody born at the beginning of spring is
astrologically Aries, but has the sun astronomically in Pisces,
becomes now rather an argument for than against astrology: It
shows that astrology has a strong cultural component. (Just to
repeat it: I rather think that this is not the last word, that
astrology is in the end more than just culture, but also contains
many elements of more fundamental or physical nature, that the
collective unconscious has discovered during many thousand or
possibly even millions of years).
The important drawback of my hypothesis, however, is that to
scientists the idea of feelings reaching far seems at first sight
completely ridiculus. I do have my own ideas about how this may
come about, which I present in my document as hypotheses, but
they are not yet at the level of a formal scientific theory,
although I make a quite concrete thought experiment and propose
some experiments that may help to get there.
But the main idea how it could work is not too difficult to
understand and, interstingly, is connected to my experience of
the August 1999 solar eclipse which I witnessed somewhere in the
south of Germany:
During a solar eclipse, the moon is between sun and earth.
Naively, one would expect that whatever causes the gravitiational
pull between these three objects would bind strongly to matter,
so that the moon would shield the gravitational force between sun
and earth, just like it shields the light. But experimentally
that is not at all the case. In Newtownian mechanics, you simply
sum over all mass points to get the total force, there is no
shielding.
Similarly, you may have heard that inside a metal box (a Farady
Cage), there is no electrical field, no electrical force. But
this is again an indirect effect: charges on the box just move
apart so that the total force inside the box is zero. Now,
experimentally no force or all forces summing up to zero is
not distinguishable.
But in quantum mechanics, some effects are known where even in
places without force field, an effect can be observed (the most
prominent example is the Aharonov-Bohm effect, for whom this
tells something).
I think I should stop now. Let me just say, that I think that
physical explanations for long range emotional connections can in
my opinion not be excluded and that they may even be of quite a
fundamental and universal nature.
> Wow. Forgive my asking, but how does a physicist wander onto an astrology
> group? ;D I mean, most folks in your line of work are dismissive, if not
> downright antagonistic towards astrology.
That is a personal story, related to an unfulfilled love with the
woman I loved then, who lives in another city. I wrote something
about it in appendix A of the main discoveries document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
and somewhat more in the intial and most important review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/review.pdf
I prefer not to say much more, also because I never heard her
side of the story. These long range feelings I thought to
experience, may have been at least partially my own imagination
or maybe not ending where I thought they were ending, but, on the
other hand, long range emotional connections seem in general much
more consistent as an explanation for the world than not, but
maybe that is just the Neptune-Jupiter opposition speaking. I
will leave it to experiment whether my hypotheses correspond to
reality or not; anything else would not be scientific and hence
not what I want.
Astrologically, my biggest influences have been Star Signs for Lovers
and The Astrology of Fate, both by Liz Greene. (I first read the
first one around the middle of the eighties, but was quite sceptical
then; my real entry into astrology was in spring 1998, a lot has
happened since then).
> What was the reaction of your colleagues? Was the work ever reviewed? Has
> there been any interest from astrologers and from other scientists in the
> various fields, or any testing done?
I have not really reached many scientists yet. Superficially it is
quickly
rejected without much thought. Moreover, many physicists are not aware of
what they know. They can use the tools, but many of them have little
awareness of its fundaments. I wrote some stuff to sci.physics and also
to a few other newsgroups. (You can find it on my web site under reviews
or directly by going to groups.google.com and searching for, say,
"exactphilosophy"). I have posted also to sci.physics.research, but only
about questions of quantum mechanics that surround my hypotheses; while
it would have been clearly impossible to discuss my document directly
there, the right people to grasp the physics would certainly be there.
Publication in a journal about physics would have been even more
difficult, there I can see no chance at all at the moment. But really
new stuff does not evolve in the old paths, so publishing directly on
the internet seems still like a good idea in the long run.
> Oh, my goodness, I just began reading your doc in the link there and I guess
> maybe I've answered my question above. I'm not even going to pretend to
> understand what you've done yet, until I read the whole thing, but your
> initial statements are very interesting.
[...]
> --
> ~Sharyn
> http://users.adelphia.net/~sharyn721/aat/
I hope that at least part of what I wrote here has been generally
understandable. And thanks again for asking questions.
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
PS: In greek mythology, Orpheus wants to get his wife back and
descends into the underworld, taming all the beasts there with
his beautiful music. Even Hades allows Orpheus to take his
wife back up into the light, but imposes a condition: She will
walk behind Orpheus and he is not allowed to look back until she
is out in the light. Orpheus walks out without looking back, but
as soon as he is out, he turns around, forgetting that she is
a few steps behind him and hence still just in the dark, so he
lost her forever. This seems to fit quite well with the current
situation after the recent Saturn-Pluto oppositions. I hope I
correctly interpreted this as the unconscious, female side of
the world having essentially stepped out of the dark and
interested in some of the fruits born of the previous, hard
times. And, with my moon in Aries at the MC, I also hope that
I will not regret having published my birthtime here.
There it is:
Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
I'm free.
Alain Stalder
|:| :|:
Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
Kant
Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
>
> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
I:I :I: wei-chi (fire/water, 64)
BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
Gets his tail in the water,
There is nothing that would further.
The image of the condition before transition.
Thus the superior man is careful
In the differentiation of things,
So that each finds its place.
In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
>
> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
Beweis dessen, dass auch unzulaengliche, ja kindische Mittel zur
Rettung dienen koennen:
Um sich vor den Sirenen zu bewahren, stopfte sich Odysseus Wachs in
die Ohren und liess sich am Mast festschmieden. Aehnliches haetten
natuerlich seit jeher alle Reisenden tun koennen ausser denen, welche
die Sirenen schon aus der Ferne verlockten, aber es war in der ganzen
Welt bekannt, dass dies unmoeglich helfen konnte. Der Sang der Sirenen
durchdrang alles, und die Leidenschaft der Verfuehrten haette mehr als
Ketten und Mast gesprengt. Daran aber dachte Odysseus nicht, obwohl er
davon vielleicht gehoert hatte. Er vertraute vollstaendig der Handvoll
Wachs und dem Gebinde Ketten und in unschuldiger Freude ueber seine
Mittelchen fuhr er den Sirenen entgegen.
Nun haben aber die Sirenen eine noch schrecklichere Waffe als den
Gesang, naemlich ihr Schweigen. Es ist zwar nicht geschehen, aber
vielleicht denkbar, dass sich jemand vor ihrem Gesang gerettet haette,
vor ihrem Schweigen gewiss nicht. Dem Gefuehl aus eigener Kraft sie
besiegt zu haben, der daraus folgenden alles fortreissenden Ueberhebung
kann nichts Irdisches widerstehen.
Und tatsaechlich sangen, als Odysseus kam, die gewaltigen Saengerinnen
nicht, sei es, dass sie glaubten, diesem Gegner koenne nur noch das
Schweigen beikommen, sei es, dass der Anblick der Glueckseligkeit im
Gesicht des Odysseus, der an nichts anderes als an Wachs und Ketten
dachte, sie allen Gesang vergessen liess.
Odysseus aber, um es so auszudruecken, hoerte ihr Schweigen nicht, er
glaubte, sie saengen, und nur er sei behuetet, es zu hoeren. Fluechtig
sah er zuerst die Wendungen ihrer Haelse, das tiefe Atmen, die
traenenvollen Augen, den halb geoeffneten Mund, glaubte aber, dies
gehoere zu den Arien, die ungehoert um ihn verklangen. Bald aber glitt
alles an seinen in die Ferne gerichteten Blicken ab, die Sirenen
verschwanden foermlich vor seiner Entschlossenheit, und gerade als er
ihnen am naechsten war, wusste er nichts mehr von ihnen.
Sie aber-schoener als jemals-streckten und drehten sich, liessen das
schaurige Haar offen im Winde wehen und spannten die Krallen frei auf
den Felsen. Sie wollten nicht mehr verfuehren, nur noch den Abglanz
vom grossen Augenpaar des Odysseus wollten sie so lange als moeglich
erhaschen.
Haetten die Sirenen Bewusstsein, sie waeren damals vernichtet worden.
So aber blieben sie, nur Odysseus ist ihnen entgangen.
Es wird uebrigens noch ein Anhang hierzu ueberliefert. Odysseus, sagt
man, war so listenreich, war ein solcher Fuchs, dass selbst die
Schicksalsgoettin nicht in sein Innerstes dringen konnte. Vielleicht
hat er, obwohl das mit Menschenverstand nicht mehr zu begreifen ist,
wirklich gemerkt, dass die Sirenen schwiegen, und hat ihnen und den
Goettern den obigen Scheinvorgang nur gewissermassen als Schild
entgegengehalten.
In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
>
> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
Prolegomena
zu
einer jeden
kuenftigen Metaphysik
die
als Wissenschaft
wird auftreten koennen,
von
Immanuel Kant
Riga, bey Johann Friedrich Hartknoch. 1783.
Vorrede
Diese Prolegomena sind nicht zum Gebrauch vor Lehrlinge, sondern vor
kuenftige Lehrer, und sollen auch diesen nicht etwa dienen, um den
Vortrag einer schon vorhandnen Wissenschaft anzuordnen, sondern um diese
Wissenschaft selbst allererst zu erfinden.
Es gibt Gelehrte, denen die Geschichte der Philosophie (der alten sowohl
als neuen) selbst ihre Philosophie ist, vor diese sind gegenwaertige
Prolegomena nicht geschrieben. Sie muessen warten, bis diejenigen, die
aus den Quellen der Vernunft selbst zu schoepfen bemuehet sind, ihre
Sache werden ausgemacht haben, und alsdenn wird an ihnen die Reihe sein,
von dem Geschehenen der Welt Nachricht zu geben. Widrigenfalls kann
nichts gesagt werden, was ihrer Meinung nach nicht schon sonst gesagt
worden ist, und in der Tat mag dieses auch als eine untruegliche
Vorhersagung vor alles Kuenftige gelten; denn, da der menschliche
Verstand ueber unzaehlige Gegenstaende viele Jahrhunderte hindurch auf
mancherlei Weise geschwaermt hat, so kann es nicht leicht fehlen, dass
nicht zu jedem Neuen etwas Altes gefunden werden sollte, was damit
einige Aehnlichkeit haette.
Meine Absicht ist, alle diejenigen, so es wert finden, sich mit
Metaphysik zu beschaeftigen, zu ueberzeugen: dass es unumgaenglich
notwendig sei, ihre Arbeit vor der Hand auszusetzen, alles bisher
Geschehene als ungeschehen anzusehen, und vor allen Dingen zuerst die
Frage aufzuwerfen: "ob auch so etwas, als Metaphysik, ueberall nur
moeglich sei."
Ist sie Wissenschaft, wie kommt es, dass sie sich nicht, wie andre
Wissenschaften, in allgemeinen und daurenden Beifall setzen kann? Ist
sie keine, wie geht es zu, dass sie doch unter dem Scheine einer
Wissenschaft unaufhoerlich gross tut, und den menschlichen Verstand mit
niemals erloeschenden, aber nie erfuellten Hoffnungen hinhaelt? Man mag
also entweder sein Wissen oder Nichtwissen demonstrieren, so muss doch
einmal ueber die Natur dieser angemassten Wissenschaft etwas Sicheres
ausgemacht werden; denn auf demselben Fusse kann es mit ihr unmoeglich
laenger bleiben. Es scheint beinahe belachenswert, indessen dass jede
andre Wissenschaft unaufhoerlich fortrueckt, sich in dieser, die doch
die Weisheit selbst sein will, deren Orakel jeder Mensch befraegt,
bestaendig auf derselben Stelle herumzudrehen, ohne einen Schritt
weiterzukommen. Auch haben sich ihre Anhaenger gar sehr verloren, und
man siehet nicht, dass diejenigen, die sich stark genug fuehlen, in
andern Wissenschaften zu glaenzen, ihren Ruhm in dieser wagen wollen, wo
jedermann, der sonst in allen uebrigen Dingen unwissend ist, sich ein
entscheidendes Urteil anmasst, weil in diesem Lande in der Tat noch kein
sicheres Mass und Gewicht vorhanden ist, um Gruendlichkeit von seichtem
Geschwaetze zu unterscheiden.
Es ist aber eben nicht so was Unerhoertes, dass nach langer Bearbeitung
einer Wissenschaft, wenn man Wunder denkt, wie weit man schon darin
gekommen sei, endlich sich jemand die Frage einfallen laesst: ob und wie
ueberhaupt eine solche Wissenschaft moeglich sei. Denn die menschliche
Vernunft ist so baulustig, dass sie mehrmalen schon den Turm
aufgefuehrt, hernach aber wieder abgetragen hat, um zu sehen, wie das
Fundament desselben wohl beschaffen sein moechte. Es ist niemals zu
spaet, vernuenftig und weise zu werden; es ist aber jederzeit schwerer,
wenn die Einsicht spaet kommt, sie in Gang zu bringen.
Zu fragen: ob eine Wissenschaft auch wohl moeglich sei, setzt voraus,
dass man an der Wirklichkeit derselben zweifle. Ein solcher Zweifel aber
beleidigt jedermann, dessen ganze Habseligkeit vielleicht in diesem
vermeinten Kleinode bestehen moechte; und daher mag sich der, so sich
diesen Zweifel entfallen laesst, nur immer auf Widerstand von allen
Seiten gefasst machen. Einige werden in stolzem Bewusstsein ihres alten,
und ebendaher vor rechtmaessig gehaltenen Besitzes, mit ihren
metaphysischen Kompendien in der Hand, auf ihn mit Verachtung
herabsehen: andere, die nirgends etwas sehen, als was mit dem einerlei
ist, was sie schon sonst irgendwo gesehen haben, werden ihn nicht
verstehen, und alles wird einige Zeit hindurch so bleiben, als ob gar
nichts vorgefallen waere, was eine nahe Veraenderung besorgen oder
hoffen liesse.
Gleichwohl getraue ich mir vorauszusagen, dass der selbstdenkende Leser
dieser Prolegomenen nicht bloss an seiner bisherigen Wissenschaft
zweifeln, sondern in der Folge gaenzlich ueberzeugt sein werde, dass es
dergleichen gar nicht geben koenne, ohne dass die hier geaeusserte
Forderungen geleistet werden, auf welchen ihre Moeglichkeit beruht, und,
da dieses noch niemals geschehen, dass es ueberall noch keine Metaphysik
gebe. Da sich indessen die Nachfrage nach ihr doch auch niemals
verlieren kann1 weil das Interesse der allgemeinen Menschenvernunft mit
ihr gar zu innigst verflochten ist, so wird er gestehen, dass eine
voellige Reform, oder vielmehr eine neue Geburt derselben, nach einem
bisher ganz unbekannten Plane, unausbleiblich bevorstehe, man mag sich
nun eine Zeitlang dagegen straeuben, wie man wolle.
Seit LOCKES und LEIBNIZENS Versuchen, oder vielmehr seit dem Entstehen
der Metaphysik, soweit die Geschichte derselben reicht, hat sich keine
Begebenheit zugetragen, die in Ansehung des Schicksals dieser
Wissenschaft haette entscheidender werden koennen, als der Angriff, den
DAVID HUME auf dieselbe machte. Er brachte kein Licht in diese Art von
Erkenntnis, aber er schlug doch einen Funken, bei welchem man wohl ein
Licht haette anzuenden koennen, wenn er einen empfaenglichen Zunder
getroffen haette, dessen Glimmen sorgfaeltig waere unterhalten und
vergroessert worden.
HUME ging hauptsaechlich von einem einzigen, aber wichtigen Begriffe der
Metaphysik, naemlich dem der Verknuepfung der Ursache und Wirkung,
(mithin auch dessen Folgebegriffe der Kraft und Handlung etc.) aus, und
forderte die Vernunft, die da vorgibt, ihn in ihrem Schosse erzeugt zu
haben, auf, ihm Rede und Antwort zu geben, mit welchem Rechte sie sich
denkt: dass etwas so beschaffen sein koenne, dass, wenn es gesetzt ist,
dadurch auch etwas anderes notwendig gesetzt werden muesse; denn das
sagt der Begriff der Ursache. Er bewies unwidersprechlich: dass es der
Vernunft gaenzlich unmoeglich sei, a priori, und aus Begriffen eine
solche Verbindung zu denken, denn diese enthaelt Notwendigkeit; es ist
aber gar nicht abzusehen, wie darum, weil etwas ist, etwas anderes
notwendiger Weise auch sein muesse, und wie sich also der Begriff von
einer solchen Verknuepfung a priori einfuehren lasse. Hieraus schloss
er, dass die Vernunft sich mit diesem Begriffe ganz und gar betriege,
dass sie ihn faelschlich vor ihr eigen Kind halte, da er doch nichts
anders als ein Bastard der Einbildungskraft sei, die, durch Erfahrung
beschwaengert, gewisse Vorstellungen unter das Gesetz der Assoziation
gebracht hat, und eine daraus entspringende subjektive Notwendigkeit d.
i. Gewohnheit, vor eine objektive aus Einsicht unterschiebt. Hieraus
schloss er: die Vernunft habe gar kein Vermoegen, solche Verknuepfungen,
auch selbst nur im allgemeinen, zu denken, weil ihre Begriffe alsdenn
blosse Erdichtungen sein wuerden, und alle ihre vorgeblich a priori
bestehende Erkenntnisse waeren nichts als falsch gestempelte gemeine
Erfahrungen, welches ebensoviel sagt, als, es gebe ueberall keine
Metaphysik und koenne auch keine geben.2
So uebereilt und unrichtig auch seine Folgerung war, so war sie doch
wenigstens auf Untersuchung gegruendet, und diese Untersuchung war es
wohl wert, dass sich die guten Koepfe seiner Zeit vereinigt haetten, die
Aufgabe in dem Sinne, wie er sie vortrug, womoeglich gluecklicher
aufzuloesen, woraus denn bald eine gaenzliche Reform der Wissenschaft
haette entspringen muessen.
Allein das der Metaphysik von jeher unguenstige Schicksal wollte, dass
er von keinem verstanden wuerde. Man kann es, ohne eine gewisse Pein zu
empfinden, nicht ansehen, wie so ganz und gar seine Gegner REID, OSWALD,
BEATTlE, und zuletzt noch PRIESTLEY, den Punkt seiner Aufgabe
verfehlten, und indem sie immer das als zugestanden annahmen, was er
eben bezweifelte, dagegen aber mit Heftigkeit und mehrenteils mit
grosser Unbescheidenheit dasjenige bewiesen, was ihm niemals zu
bezweifeln in den Sinn gekommen war, seinen Wink zur Verbesserung so
verkannten, dass alles in dem alten Zustande blieb, als ob nichts
geschehen waere. Es war nicht die Frage, ob der Begriff der Ursache
richtig, brauchbar, und in Ansehung der ganzen Naturerkenntnis
unentbehrlich sei, denn dieses hatte HUME niemals in Zweifel gezogen;
sondern ob er durch die Vernunft a priori gedacht werde, und auf solche
Weise eine von aller Erfahrung unabhaengige innre Wahrheit und daher
auch wohl weiter ausgedehnte Brauchbarkeit habe, die nicht bloss auf
Gegenstaende der Erfahrung eingeschraenkt sei: hierueber erwartete HUME
Eroeffnung. Es war ja nur die Rede von dem Ursprunge dieses Begriffs,
nicht von der Unentbehrlichkeit desselben im Gebrauche: waere jenes nur
ausgemittelt, so wuerde es sich wegen der Bedingungen seines Gebrauches,
und des Umfangs, in welchem er gueltig sein kann, schon von selbst
gegeben haben.
Die Gegner des beruehmten Mannes haetten aber, um der Aufgabe ein Gnuege
zu tun, sehr tief in die Natur der Vernunft, sofern sie bloss mit reinem
Denken beschaeftigt ist, hineindringen muessen, welches ihnen ungelegen
war. Sie erfanden daher ein bequemeres Mittel, ohne alle Einsicht
trotzig zu tun, naemlich die Berufung auf den gemeinen Menschenverstand.
In der Tat ists eine grosse Gabe des Himmels, einen geraden (oder, wie
man es neuerlich benannt hat, schlichten) Menschenverstand zu besitzen.
Aber man muss ihn durch Taten beweisen, durch das Ueberlegte und
Vernuenftige, was man denkt und sagt, nicht aber dadurch, dass, wenn man
nichts Kluges zu seiner Rechtfertigung vorzubringen weiss, man sich auf
ihn als ein Orakel beruft. Wenn Einsicht und Wissenschaft auf die Neige
gehen, alsdenn und nicht eher, sich auf den gemeinen Menschenverstand zu
berufen, das ist eine von den subtilen Erfindungen neuerer Zeiten, dabei
es der schalste Schwaetzer mit dem gruendlichsten Kopfe getrost
aufnehmen, und es mit ihm aushalten kann. Solange aber noch ein kleiner
Rest von Einsicht da ist, wird man sich wohl hueten, diese Nothilfe zu
ergreifen. Und, beim Lichte besehen, ist diese Appellation nichts
anders, als eine Berufung auf das Urteil der Menge; ein Zuklatschen,
ueber das der Philosoph erroetet, der populaere Witzling aber
triumphiert und trotzig tut. Ich sollte aber doch denken, HUME habe auf
einen gesunden Verstand ebenso wohl Anspruch machen koennen, als
BEATTlE, und noch ueberdem auf das, was dieser gewiss nicht besass,
naemlich eine kritische Vernunft, die den gemeinen Verstand in Schranken
haelt, damit er sich nicht in Spekulationen versteige, oder, wenn bloss
von diesen die Rede ist, nichts zu entscheiden begehre, weil er sich
ueber seine Grundsaetze nicht zu rechtfertigen versteht; denn nur so
allein wird er ein gesunder Verstand bleiben. Meissel und Schlaegel
koennen ganz wohl dazu dienen, ein Stueck Zimmerholz zu bearbeiten, aber
zum Kupferstechen muss man die Radiernadel brauchen. So sind gesunder
Verstand sowohl als spekulativer, beide, aber jeder in seiner Art,
brauchbar: jener, wenn es auf Urteile ankommt, die in der Erfahrung ihre
unmittelbare Anwendung finden, dieser aber, wo im allgemeinen, aus
blossen Begriffen geurteilt werden soll, z. B. in der Metaphysik, wo der
sich selbst, aber oft per antiphrasin, so nennende gesunde Verstand ganz
und gar kein Urteil hat.
Ich gestehe frei: die Erinnerung des DAVID HUME war eben dasjenige, was
mir vor vielen Jahren zuerst den dogmatischen Schlummer unterbrach, und
meinen Untersuchungen im Felde der spekulativen Philosophie eine ganz
andre Richtung gab. Ich war weit entfernt, ihm in Ansehung seiner
Folgerungen Gehoer zu geben, die bloss daher ruehrten, weil er sich
seine Aufgabe nicht im Ganzen vorstellte, sondern nur auf einen Teil
derselben fiel, der, ohne das Ganze in Betracht zu ziehen, keine
Auskunft geben kann. Wenn man von einem gegruendeten, obzwar nicht
ausgefuehrten Gedanken anfaengt, den uns ein anderer hinterlassen, so
kann man wohl hoffen, es bei fortgesetztem Nachdenken weiter zu bringen,
als der scharfsinnige Mann kam, dem man den ersten Funken dieses Lichts
zu verdanken hatte.
Ich versuchte also zuerst, ob sich nicht HUMES Einwurf allgemein
vorstellen liesse, und fand bald: dass der Begriff der Verknuepfung von
Ursache und Wirkung bei weitem nicht der einzige sei, durch den der
Verstand a priori sich Verknuepfungen der Dinge denkt, vielmehr, dass
Metaphysik ganz und gar daraus bestehe. Ich suchte mich ihrer Zahl zu
versichern, und, da dieses mir nach Wunsch, naemlich aus einem einzigen
Prinzip, gelungen war, so ging ich an die Deduktion dieser Begriffe, von
denen ich nunmehr versichert war, dass sie nicht, wie HUME besorgt
hatte, von der Erfahrung abgeleitet, sondern aus dem reinen Verstande
entsprungen seien. Diese Deduktion, die meinem scharfsinnigen Vorgaenger
unmoeglich schien, die niemand ausser ihm sich auch nur hatte einfallen
lassen, obgleich jedermann sich der Begriffe getrost bediente, ohne zu
fragen, worauf sich denn ihre objektive Gueltigkeit gruende, diese, sage
ich, war das schwerste, das jemals zum Behuf der Metaphysik unternommen
werden konnte, und was noch das Schlimmste dabei ist, so konnte mir
Metaphysik, soviel davon nur irgendwo vorhanden ist, hiebei auch nicht
die mindeste Huelfe leisten, weil jene Deduktion zuerst die Moeglichkeit
einer Metaphysik ausmachen soll. Da es mir nun mit der Aufloesung des
Humischen Problems nicht bloss in einem besondern Falle, sondern in
Absicht auf das ganze Vermoegen der reinen Vernunft gelungen war: so
konnte ich sichere, obgleich immer nur langsame Schritte tun, um endlich
den ganzen Umfang der reinen Vernunft, in seinen Grenzen sowohl als
seinem Inhalt, vollstaendig und nach allgemeinen Prinzipien zu
bestimmen, welches denn dasjenige war, was Metaphysik bedarf, um ihr
System nach einem sicheren Plan aufzufuehren.
Ich besorge aber, dass es der Ausfuehrung des Humischen Problems in
seiner moeglich groessten Erweiterung (naemlich der Kritik der reinen
Vernunft) ebenso gehen duerfte, als es dem Problem selbst erging, da es
zuerst vorgestellt wurde. Man wird sie unrichtig beurteilen, weil man
sie nicht versteht; man wird sie nicht verstehen, weil man das Buch zwar
durchzublaettern, aber nicht durchzudenken Lust hat; und man wird diese
Bemuehung darauf nicht verwenden wollen, weil das Werk trocken, weil es
dunkel, weil es allen gewohnten Begriffen widerstreitend und ueberdem
weitlaeuftig ist. Nun gestehe ich, dass es mir unerwartet sei, von einem
Philosophen Klagen wegen Mangel an Popularitaet, Unterhaltung und
Gemaechlichkeit zu hoeren, wenn es um die Existenz einer gepriesenen und
der Menschheit unentbehrlichen Erkenntnis selbst zu tun ist, die nicht
anders, als nach den strengsten Regeln einer schulgerechten
Puenktlichkeit ausgemacht werden kann, auf welche zwar mit der Zeit auch
Popularitaet folgen, aber niemals den Anfang machen darf. Allein, was
eine gewisse Dunkelheit betrifft, die zum Teil von der Weitlaeuftigkeit
des Plans herruehret, bei welcher man die Hauptpunkte, auf die es bei
der Untersuchung ankommt, nicht wohl uebersehen kann: so ist die
Beschwerde deshalb gerecht, und dieser werde ich durch gegenwaertige
Prolegomena abhelfen.
Jenes Werk, welches das reine Vernunftvermoegen in seinem ganzen Umfange
und Grenzen darstellt, bleibt dabei immer die Grundlage, worauf sich die
Prolegomena nur als Voruebungen beziehen; denn jene Kritik muss als
Wissenschaft systematisch, und bis zu ihren kleinsten Teilen
vollstaendig dastehen, ehe noch daran zu denken ist, Metaphysik
auftreten zu lassen, oder sich auch nur eine entfernte Hoffnung zu
derselben zu machen.
Man ist es schon lange gewohnt, alte abgenutzte Erkenntnisse dadurch neu
aufgestutzt zu sehen, dass man sie aus ihren vormaligen Verbindungen
herausnimmt, ihnen ein systematisches Kleid nach eigenem beliebigen
Schnitte, aber unter neuen Titeln, anpasst; und nichts anders wird der
groesste Teil der Leser auch von jener Kritik zum voraus erwarten.
Allein diese Prolegomena werden ihn dahin bringen, einzusehen, dass es
eine ganz neue Wissenschaft sei, von welcher niemand auch nur den
Gedanken vorher gefasst hatte, wovon selbst die blosse Idee unbekannt
war, und wozu von allem bisher Gegebenen nichts genutzt werden konnte,
als allein der Wink, den HUMES Zweifel geben konnten, der gleichfalls
nichts von einer dergleichen moeglichen foermlichen Wissenschaft ahnte,
sondern sein Schiff, um es in Sicherheit zu bringen, auf den Strand (den
Skeptizism) setzte, da es denn liegen und verfaulen mag, statt dessen es
bei mir darauf ankommt, ihm einen Piloten zu geben, der nach sicheren
Prinzipien der Steuermannskunst, die aus der Kenntnis des Globus gezogen
sind, mit einer vollstaendigen Seekarte und einem Kompass versehen, das
Schiff sicher fuehren koenne, wohin es ihm gut duenkt.
Zu einer neuen Wissenschaft, die gaenzlich isoliert und die einzige
ihrer Art ist, mit dem Vorurteil gehen, als koenne man sie vermittelst
seiner schon sonst erworbenen vermeinten Kenntnisse beurteilen, obgleich
die es eben sind, an deren Realitaet zuvor gaenzlich gezweifelt werden
muss, bringt nichts anders zuwege, als dass man allenthalben das zu
sehen glaubt, was einem schon sonst bekannt war, weil etwa die
Ausdruecke jenem aehnlich lauten, nur, dass einem alles aeusserst
verunstaltet, widersinnisch und kauderwelsch vorkommen muss, weil man
nicht die Gedanken des Verfassers, sondern immer nur seine eigene, durch
lange Gewohnheit zur Natur gewordene Denkungsart dabei zum Grunde legt.
Aber die Weitlaeuftigkeit des Werks, sofern sie in der Wissenschaft
selbst und nicht dem Vortrage gegruendet ist, die dabei unvermeidliche
Trockenheit und scholastische Puenktlichkeit sind Eigenschaften, die
zwar der Sache selbst ueberaus vorteilhaft sein moegen, dem Buche selbst
aber allerdings nachteilig werden muessen.
Es ist zwar nicht jedermann gegeben, so subtil und doch zugleich so
anlockend zu schreiben, als DAVID HUME, oder so gruendlich und dabei so
elegant, als MOSES MENDELSSOHN; allein Popularitaet haette ich meinem
Vortrage (wie ich mir schmeichele) wohl geben koennen, wenn es mir nur
darum zu tun gewesen waere, einen Plan zu entwerfen, und dessen
Vollziehung andern anzupreisen, und mir nicht das Wohl der Wissenschaft,
die mich so lange beschaeftigt hielt, am Herzen gelegen haette; denn
uebrigens gehoerte viel Beharrlichkeit und auch selbst nicht wenig
Selbstverlaeugnung dazu, die Anlockung einer frueheren guenstigen
Aufnahme der Aussicht auf einen zwar spaeten, aber dauerhaften Beifall
nachzusetzen.
Plane machen ist mehrmalen eine ueppige, prahlerische
Geistesbeschaeftigung, dadurch man sich ein Ansehen von schoepferischem
Genie gibt, indem man fodert, was man selbst nicht leisten, tadelt, was
man doch nicht besser machen kann, und vorschlaegt, wovon man selbst
nicht weiss, wo es zu finden ist, wiewohl auch nur zum tuechtigen Plane
einer allgemeinen Kritik der Vernunft schon etwas mehr gehoeret haette,
als man wohl vermuten mag, wenn er nicht bloss, wie gewoehnlich, eine
Deklamation frommer Wuensche haette werden sollen. Allein reine Vernunft
ist eine so abgesonderte, in ihr selbst so durchgaengig verknuepfte
Sphaere, dass man keinen Teil derselben antasten kann, ohne alle uebrige
zu beruehren, und nichts ausrichten kann, ohne vorher jedem seine Stelle
und seinen Einfluss auf den andern bestimmt zu haben, weil, da nichts
ausser derselben ist, was unser Urteil innerhalb berichtigen koennte,
jedes Teiles Gueltigkeit und Gebrauch von dem Verhaeltnisse abhaengt,
darin er gegen die uebrigen in der Vernunft selbst steht, und, wie bei
dem Gliederbau eines organisierten Koerpers, der Zweck jedes Gliedes nur
aus dem vollstaendigen Begriff des Ganzen abgeleitet werden kann. Daher
kann man von einer solchen Kritik sagen: dass sie niemals zuverlaessig
sei, wenn sie nicht ganz und bis auf die mindesten Elemente der reinen
Vernunft vollendet ist, und dass man von der Sphaere dieses Vermoegens
entweder alles oder nichts bestimmen und ausmachen muesse.
Ob aber gleich ein blosser Plan, der vor der Kritik der reinen Vernunft
vorhergehen moechte, unverstaendlich, unzuverlaessig und unnuetze sein
wuerde, so ist er dagegen um desto nuetzlicher, wenn er darauf folgt.
Denn dadurch wird man in den Stand gesetzt, das Ganze zu uebersehen, die
Hauptpunkte, worauf es bei dieser Wissenschaft ankommt, stueckweise zu
pruefen, und manches dem Vortrage nach besser einzurichten, als es in
der ernsten Ausfertigung des Werks geschehen konnte.
Hier ist nun ein solcher Plan, nach vollendetem Werke, der nunmehr nach
analytischer Methode angelegt sein darf, da das Werk selbst durchaus
nach synthetischer Lehrart abgefasst sein musste, damit die Wissenschaft
alle ihre Artikulationen, als den Gliederbau eines ganz besondern
Erkenntnisvermoegens, in seiner natuerlichen Verbindung vor Augen
stelle. Wer diesen Plan, den ich als Prolegomena vor aller kuenftigen
Metaphysik voranschicke, selbst wiederum dunkel findet, der mag
bedenken, dass es eben nicht noetig sei, dass jedermann Metaphysik
studiere, dass es manches Talent gebe, welches in gruendlichen und
selbst tiefen Wissenschaften, die sich mehr der Anschauung naehern, ganz
wohl fortkoemmt, dem es aber mit Nachforschungen durch lauter abgezogene
Begriffe nicht gelingen will, und dass man seine Geistesgaben in solchem
Fall auf einen andern Gegenstand verwenden muesse, dass aber derjenige,
der Metaphysik zu beurteilen, ja selbst eine abzufassen unternimmt,
denen Forderungen, die hier gemacht werden, durchaus ein Gnuege tun
muesse, es mag nun auf die Art geschehen, dass er meine Aufloesung
annimmt, oder sie auch gruendlich widerlegt und eine andere an deren
Stelle setzt, - denn abweisen kann er sie nicht - und dass endlich die
so beschrieene Dunkelheit (eine gewohnte Bemaentelung seiner eigenen
Gemaechlichkeit oder Bloedsichtigkeit) auch ihren Nutzen habe: da alle,
die in Ansehung aller andern Wissenschaften ein behutsames
Stillschweigen beobachten, in Fragen der Metaphysik meisterhaft sprechen
und dreust entscheiden, weil ihre Unwissenheit hier freilich nicht gegen
anderer Wissenschaft deutlich absticht, wohl aber gegen echte kritische
Grundsaetze, von denen man also ruehmen kann:
ignavum, fucos, pecus a praesepibus arcent Virg.
Immanuel Kant
BEANTWORTUNG DER FRAGE: WAS IST AUFKLAERUNG ?
Berlinische Monatsschrift. Dezember-Heft 1784. S. 481-494
AUFKLAERUNG ist der Ausgang des Menschen aus seiner
selbstverschuldeten Unmuendigkeit. Unmuendigkeit ist das Unvermoegen,
sich seines Verstandes ohne Leitung eines anderen zu bedienen.
Selbstverschuldet ist diese Unmuendigkeit, wenn die Ursache derselben
nicht am Mangel des Verstandes, sondern der Entschliessung und des
Mutes liegt, sich seiner ohne Leitung eines andern zu bedienen. Sapere
aude! Habe Mut, dich deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen! ist also
der Wahlspruch der Aufklaerung.
Faulheit und Feigheit sind die Ursachen, warum ein so grosser Teil der
Menschen, nachdem sie die Natur laengst von fremder Leitung
freigesprochen [A482] (naturaliter maiorennes), dennoch gerne
zeitlebens unmuendig bleiben; und warum es anderen so leicht wird,
sich zu deren Vormuendern aufzuwerfen. Es ist so bequem, unmuendig zu
sein. Habe ich ein Buch, das fuer mich Verstand hat, einen Seelsorger,
der fuer mich Gewissen hat, einen Arzt, der fuer mich die Diaet
beurteilt usw., so brauche ich mich ja nicht selbst zu bemuehen. Ich
habe nicht noetig zu denken, wenn ich nur bezahlen kann; andere werden
das verdriessliche Geschaeft schon fuer mich uebernehmen. Dass der bei
weitem groesste Teil der Menschen (darunter das ganze schoene
Geschlecht) den Schritt zur Muendigkeit, ausser dem dass er
beschwerlich ist, auch fuer sehr gefaehrlich halte, dafuer sorgen
schon jene Vormuender, die die Oberaufsicht ueber sie guetigst auf
sich genommen haben. Nachdem sie ihr Hausvieh zuerst dumm gemacht
haben und sorgfaeltig verhueteten, dass diese ruhigen Geschoepfe ja
keinen Schritt ausser dem Gaengelwagen, darin sie sie einsperreten,
wagen durften, so zeigen sie ihnen nachher die Gefahr, die ihnen
drohet, wenn sie es versuchen, allein zu gehen. Nun ist diese Gefahr
zwar eben so gross nicht, denn sie wuerden durch einigemal Fallen wohl
endlich gehen lernen; allein ein Beispiel von der Art macht doch
schuechtern und schreckt gemeiniglich von allen ferneren Versuchen ab.
Es ist also fuer jeden einzelnen Menschen schwer, sich aus der ihm
beinahe zur Natur gewordenen Unmuendigkeit [A483] herauszuarbeiten. Er
hat sie sogar liebgewonnen und ist vorderhand wirklich unfaehig, sich
seines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen, weil man ihn niemals den
Versuch davon machen liess. Satzungen und Formeln, diese mechanischen
Werkzeuge eines vernuenftigen Gebrauchs oder vielmehr Missbrauchs
seiner Naturgaben, sind die Fussschellen einer immerwaehrenden
Unmuendigkeit. Wer sie auch abwuerfe, wuerde dennoch auch ueber den
schmalesten Graben einen nur unsicheren Sprung tun, weil er zu
dergleichen freier Bewegung nicht gewoehnt ist. Daher gibt es nur
wenige, denen es gelungen ist, durch eigene Bearbeitung ihres Geistes
sich aus der Unmuendigkeit herauszuwickeln und dennoch einen sicheren
Gang zu tun.
Dass aber ein Publikum sich selbst aufklaere, ist eher moeglich; ja es
ist, wenn man ihm nur Freiheit laesst, beinahe unausbleiblich. Denn da
werden sich immer einige Selbstdenkende, sogar unter den eingesetzten
Vormuendern des grossen Haufens finden, welche, nachdem sie dasJoch
der Unmuendigkeit selbst abgeworfen haben, den Geist einer
vernuenftigen Schaetzung des eigenen Werts und des Berufs jedes
Menschen, selbst zu denken, um sich verbreiten werden. Besonders ist
hiebei: dass das Publikum, welches zuvor von ihnen unter dieses Joch
gebracht worden, sie hernach selbst zwingt, darunter zu bleiben, wenn
es von einigen seiner Vormuender, die selbst aller Aufklaerung
unfaehig sind, dazu aufgewiegelt [A484] worden; so schaedlich ist es,
Vorurteile zu pflanzen, weil sie sich zuletzt an denen selbst raechen,
die oder deren Vorgaenger ihre Urheber gewesen sind. Daher kann ein
Publikum nur langsam zur Aufklaerung gelangen. Durch eine Revolution
wird vielleicht wohl ein Abfall von persoenlichem Despotism und
gewinnsuechtiger oder herrschsuechtiger Bedrueckung, aber niemals
wahre Reform der Denkungsart zustande kommen; sondern neue Vorurteile
werden, ebensowohl als die alten, zum Leitbande des gedankenlosen
grossen Haufens dienen.
Zu dieser Aufklaerung aber wird nichts erfordert als Freiheit; und
zwar die unschaedlichste unter allem, was nur Freiheit heissen mag,
naemlich die: von seiner Vernunft in allen Stuecken oeffentlichen
Gebrauch zu machen. Nun hoere ich aber von allen Seiten rufen:
Raesonniert nicht! Der Offizier sagt: Raesonniert nicht, sondern
exerziert! Der Finanzrat: Raesonniert nicht, sondern bezahlt! Der
Geistliche: Raesonniert nicht, sondern glaubt! (Nur ein einziger Herr
in der Welt sagt: Raesonniert, soviel ihr wollt und worueber ihr
wollt, aber gehorcht!) Hier ist ueberall Einschraenkung der Freiheit.
Welche Einschraenkung aber ist der Aufklaerung hinderlich, welche
nicht, sondern ihr wohl gar befoerderlich? - Ich antworte: Der
oeffentliche Gebrauch seiner Vernunft muss jederzeit frei sein, und
der allein kann Aufklaerung unter Menschen zustande [A485] bringen;
der Privatgebrauch derselben aber darf oefters sehr enge
eingeschraenkt sein, ohne doch darum den Fortschritt der Aufklaerung
sonderlich zu hindern. Ich verstehe aber unter dem oeffentlichen
Gebrauche seiner eigenen Vernunft denjenigen, den jemand als Gelehrter
von ihr vor dem ganzen Publikum der Leserwelt macht. Den
Privatgebrauch nenne ich denjenigen, den er in einem gewissen ihm
anvertrauten buergerlichen Posten oder Amte von seiner Vernunft machen
darf. Nun ist zu manchen Geschaeften, die in das Interesse des
gemeinen Wesens laufen, ein gewisser Mechanism notwendig, vermittelst
dessen einige Glieder des gemeinen Wesens sich bloss passiv verhalten
muessen, um durch eine kuenstliche Einhelligkeit von der Regierung zu
oeffentlichen Zwecken gerichtet oder wenigstens von der Zerstoerung
dieser Zwecke abgehalten zu werden. Hier ist es nun freilich nicht
erlaubt zu raesonnieren; sondern man muss gehorchen. Sofern sich aber
dieser Teil der Maschine zugleich als Glied eines ganzen gemeinen
Wesens, ja sogar der Weltbuergergesellschaft ansieht, mithin in der
Qualitaet eines Gelehrten, der sich an ein Publikum im eigentlichen
Verstande durch Schriften wendet, kann er allerdings raesonnieren,
ohne dass dadurch die Geschaefte leiden, zu denen er zum Teile als
passives Glied angesetzt ist. So wuerde es sehr verderblich sein, wenn
ein Offizier, dem von seinen Oberen etwas anbefohlen wird, im Dienste
[A486] ueber die Zweckmaessigkeit oder Nuetzlichkeit dieses Befehls
laut vernuenfteln wollte; er muss gehorchen. Es kann ihm aber
billigermassen nicht verwehrt werden, als Gelehrter ueber die Fehler
im Kriegesdienste Anmerkungen zu machen und diese seinem Publikum zur
Beurteilung vorzulegen. Der Buerger kann sich nicht weigern, die ihm
auferlegten Abgaben zu leisten; sogar kann ein vorwitziger Tadel
solcher Auflagen, wenn sie von ihm geleistet werden sollen, als ein
Skandal, (das allgemeine Widersetzlichkeiten veranlassen koennte),
bestraft werden. Ebenderselbe handelt demohngeachtet der Pflicht eines
Buergers nicht entgegen, wenn er als Gelehrter wider die
Unschicklichkeit oder auch Ungerechtigkeit solcher Ausschreibungen
oeffentlich seine Gedanken aeussert. Ebenso ist ein Geistlicher
verbunden, seinen Katechismusschuelern und seiner Gemeine nach dem
Symbol der Kirche, der er dient, seinen Vortrag zu tun, denn er ist
auf diese Bedingung angenommen worden. Aber als Gelehrter hat er volle
Freiheit, ja sogar den Beruf dazu, alle seine sorgfaeltig geprueften
und wohlmeinenden Gedanken ueber das Fehlerhafte in jenem Symbol und
Vorschlaege wegen besserer Einrichtung des Religions- und
Kirchenwesens dem Publikum mitzuteilen. Es ist hiebei auch nichts, was
dem Gewissen zur Last gelegt werden koennte. Denn was er zufolge
seines Amts als Geschaefttraeger der Kirche lehrt, das stellt er als
etwas vor, in Ansehung [A487] dessen er nicht freie Gewalt hat, nach
eigenem Gutduenken zu lehren, sondern das er nach Vorschrift und im
Namen eines andern vorzutragen angestellt ist. Er wird sagen: unsere
Kirche lehrt dieses oder jenes; das sind die Beweisgruende, deren sie
sich bedient. Er zieht alsdann allen praktischen Nutzen fuer seine
Gemeinde aus Satzungen, die er selbst nicht mit voller Ueberzeugung
unterschreiben wuerde, zu deren Vortrag er sich gleichwohl anheischig
machen kann, weil es doch nicht ganz unmoeglich ist, dass darin
Wahrheit verborgen laege, auf alle Faelle aber wenigstens doch nichts
der innern Religion Widersprechendes darin angetroffen wird. Denn
glaubte er das letztere darin zu finden, so wuerde er sein Amt mit
Gewissen nicht verwalten koennen; er muesste es niederlegen. Der
Gebrauch also, den ein angestellter Lehrer von seiner Vernunft vor
seiner Gemeinde macht, ist bloss ein Privatgebrauch, weil diese immer
nur eine haeusliche, obzwar noch so grosse Versammlung ist; und in
Ansehung dessen ist er als Priester nicht frei und darf es auch nicht
sein, weil er einen fremden Auftrag ausrichtet. Dagegen als Gelehrter,
der durch Schriften zum eigentlichen Publikum, naemlich der Welt
spricht, mithin der Geistliche im oeffentlichen Gebrauche seiner
Vernunft, geniesst einer uneingeschraenkten Freiheit, sich seiner
eigenen Vernunft zu bedienen und in seiner eigenen Person zu sprechen.
Denn dass die Vormuender des Volks [A488] (in geistlichen Dingen)
selbst wieder unmuendig sein sollen, ist eine Ungereimtheit, die auf
Verewigung der Ungereimtheiten hinauslaeuft.
Aber sollte nicht eine Gesellschaft von Geistlichen, etwa eine
Kirchenversammlung oder eine ehrwuerdige Classis (wie sie sich unter
den Hollaendern selbst nennt), berechtigt sein, sich eidlich auf ein
gewisses unveraenderliches Symbol zu verpflichten, um so eine
unaufhoerliche Obervormundschaft ueber jedes ihrer Glieder und
vermittelst ihrer ueber das Volk zu fuehren und diese so gar zu
verewigen? Ich sage: das ist ganz unmoeglich. Ein solcher Kontrakt,
der auf immer alle weitere Aufklaerung vom Menschengeschlechte
abzuhalten geschlossen wuerde, ist schlechterdings null und nichtig;
und sollte er auch durch die oberste Gewalt, durch Reichstage und die
feierlichsten Friedensschluesse bestaetigt sein. Ein Zeitalter kann
sich nicht verbuenden und darauf verschwoeren, das folgende in einen
Zustand zu setzen, darin es ihm unmoeglich werden muss, seine
(vornehmlich so sehr angelegentliche) Erkenntnisse zu erweitern, von
Irrtuemern zu reinigen und ueberhaupt in der Aufklaerung
weiterzuschreiten. Das waere ein Verbrechen wider die menschliche
Natur, deren urspruengliche Bestimmung gerade in diesem Fortschreiten
besteht; und die Nachkommen sind also vollkommen dazu berechtigt, jene
Beschluesse, als unbefugter und frevelhafter Weise genommen, zu
verwerfen. Der Probierstein [A489] alles dessen, was ueber ein Volk
als Gesetz beschlossen werden kann, liegt in der Frage: ob ein Volk
sich selbst wohl ein solches Gesetz auferlegen koennte? Nun waere
dieses wohl, gleichsam in der Erwartung eines bessern, auf eine
bestimmte kurze Zeit moeglich, um eine gewisse Ordnung einzufuehren:
indem man es zugleich jedem der Buerger, vornehmlich dem Geistlichen,
frei liesse, in der Qualitaet eines Gelehrten oeffentlich, d. i. durch
Schriften, ueber das Fehlerhafte der dermaligen Einrichtung seine
Anmerkungen zu machen, indessen die eingefuehrte Ordnung noch immer
fortdauerte, bis die Einsicht in die Beschaffenheit dieser Sachen
oeffentlich so weit gekommen und bewaehret worden, dass sie durch
Vereinigung ihrer Stimmen (wenngleich nicht aller) einen Vorschlag vor
den Thron bringen koennte, um diejenigen Gemeinden in Schutz zu
nehmen, die sich etwa nach ihren Begriffen der besseren Einsicht zu
einer veraenderten Religionseinrichtung geeinigt haetten, ohne doch
diejenigen zu hindern, die es beim alten wollten bewenden lassen. Aber
auf eine beharrliche, von niemanden oeffentlich zu bezweifelnde
Religionsverfassung auch nur binnen der Lebensdauer eines Menschen
sich zu einigen, und dadurch einen Zeitraum in dem Fortgange der
Menschheit zur Verbesserung gleichsam zu vernichten und fruchtlos,
dadurch aber wohl gar der Nachkommenschaft nachteilig zu machen ist
schlechterdings unerlaubt. Ein Mensch kann zwar fuer seine Person
[A490] und auch alsdann nur auf einige Zeit in dem, was ihm zu wissen
obliegt, die Aufklaerung aufschieben; aber auf sie Verzicht zu tun, es
sei fuer seine Person, mehr aber noch fuer die Nachkommenschaft,
heisst die heiligen Rechte der Menschheit verletzen und mit Fuessen
treten. Was aber nicht einmal ein Volk ueber sich selbst beschliessen
darf, das darf noch weniger ein Monarch ueber das Volk beschliessen;
denn sein gesetzgebendes Ansehen beruht eben darauf, dass er den
gesamten Volkswillen in dem seinigen vereinigt. Wenn er nur darauf
sieht, dass alle wahre oder vermeinte Verbesserung mit der
buergerlichen Ordnung zusammenbestehe, so kann er seine Untertanen
uebrigens nur selbst machen lassen, was sie um ihres Seelenheils
willen zu tun noetig finden; das geht ihn nichts an, wohl aber zu
verhueten, dass nicht einer den andern gewalttaetig hindere, an der
Bestimmung und Befoerderung desselben nach allem seinen Vermoegen zu
arbeiten. Es tut selbst seiner Majestaet Abbruch, wenn er sich hierin
mischt, indem er die Schriften, wodurch seine Untertanen ihre
Einsichten ins reine zu bringen suchen, seiner Regierungsaufsicht
wuerdigt, sowohl wenn er dieses aus eigener hoechsten Einsicht tut, wo
er sich dem Vorwurfe aussetzt: Caesar non est supra grammaticos, als
auch und noch weit mehr, wenn er seine oberste Gewalt soweit
erniedrigt, den geistlichen Despotism einiger Tyrannen [A491] in
seinem Staate gegen seine uebrigen Untertanen zu unterstuetzen.
Wenn denn nun gefragt wird: leben wir jetzt in einem aufgeklaerten
Zeitalter? so ist die Antwort: Nein, aber wohl in einem Zeitalter der
Aufklaerung. Dass die Menschen, wie die Sachen jetzt stehen, im ganzen
genommen, schon imstande waeren oder darin auch nur gesetzt werden
koennten, in Religionsdingen sich ihres eigenen Verstandes ohne
Leitung eines andern sicher und gut zu bedienen, daran fehlt noch sehr
viel. Allein, dass jetzt ihnen doch das Feld geoeffnet wird, sich
dahin frei zu bearbeiten und die Hindernisse der allgemeinen
Aufklaerung oder des Ausganges aus ihrer selbstverschuldeten
Unmuendigkeit allmaehlich weniger werden, davon haben wir doch
deutliche Anzeigen. In diesem Betracht ist dieses Zeitalter das
Zeitalter der Aufklaerung oder das Jahrhundert FRIEDERICHS.
Ein Fuerst, der es seiner nicht unwuerdig findet zu sagen, dass er es
fuer Pflicht halte, in Religionsdingen den Menschen nichts
vorzuschreiben, sondern ihnen darin volle Freiheit zu lassen, der also
selbst den hochmuetigen Namen der Toleranz von sich ablehnt, ist
selbst aufgeklaert und verdient von der dankbaren Welt und Nachwelt
als derjenige gepriesen zu werden, der zuerst das menschliche
Geschlecht der Unmuendigkeit, wenigsten von seiten der Regierung,
entschlug und jedem frei liess, sich [A492] in allem, was
Gewissensangelegenheit ist, seiner eigenen Vernunft zu bedienen. Unter
ihm duerfen verehrungswuerdige Geistliche, unbeschadet ihrer
Amtspflicht, ihre vom angenommenen Symbol hier oder da abweichenden
Urteile und Einsichten in der Qualitaet der Gelehrten frei und
oeffentlich der Welt zur Pruefung darlegen; noch mehr aber jeder
andere, der durch keine Amtspflicht eingeschraenkt ist. Dieser Geist
der Freiheit breitet sich auch ausserhalb aus, selbst da, wo er mit
aeusseren Hindernissen einer sich selbst missverstehenden Regierung zu
ringen hat. Denn es leuchtet dieser doch ein Beispiel vor, dass bei
Freiheit fuer die oeffentliche Ruhe und Einigkeit des gemeinen Wesens
nicht das mindeste zu besorgen sei. Die Menschen arbeiten sich von
selbst nach und nach aus der Rohigkeit heraus, wenn man nur nicht
absichtlich kuenstelt, um sie darin zu erhalten.
Ich habe den Hauptpunkt der Aufklaerung, d. i. des Ausganges der
Menschen aus ihrer selbstverschuldeten Unmuendigkeit, vorzueglich in
Religionssachen gesetzt, weil in Ansehung der Kuenste und
Wissenschaften unsere Beherrscher kein Interesse haben, den Vormund
ueber ihre Untertanen zu spielen, ueberdem auch jene Unmuendigkeit, so
wie die schaedlichste, also auch die entehrendste unter allen ist.
Aber die Denkungsart eines Staatsoberhaupts, der die erstere
beguenstigt, geht noch weiter und sieht ein: dass selbst in Ansehung
seiner Gesetzgebung [A493] es ohne Gefahr sei, seinen Untertanen zu
erlauben, von ihrer eigenen Vernunft oeffentlichen Gebrauch zu machen
und ihre Gedanken ueber eine bessere Abfassung derselben, sogar mit
einer freimuetigen Kritik der schon gegebenen, der Welt oeffentlich
vorzulegen; davon wir ein glaenzendes Beispiel haben, wodurch noch
kein Monarch demjenigen vorging, welchen wir verehren.
Aber auch nur derjenige, der, selbst aufgeklaert, sich nicht vor
Schatten fuerchtet, zugleich aber ein wohldiszipliniertes zahlreiches
Heer zum Buergen der oeffentlichen Ruhe zur Hand hat, - kann das
sagen, was ein Freistaat nicht wagen darf: Raesonniert, soviel ihr
wollt, und worueber ihr wollt; nur gehorcht! So zeigt sich hier ein
befremdlicher, nicht erwarteter Gang menschlicher Dinge; sowie auch
sonst, wenn man ihn im grossen betrachtet, darin fast alles paradox
ist. Ein groesserer Grad buergerlicher Freiheit scheint der Freiheit
des Geistes des Volks vorteilhaft und setzt ihr doch unuebersteigliche
Schranken; ein Grad weniger von jener verschafft hingegen diesem Raum,
sich nach allem seinen Vermoegen auszubreiten. Wenn denn die Natur
unter dieser harten Huelle den Keim, fuer den sie am zaertlichsten
sorgt, naemlich den Hang und Beruf zum freien Denken, ausgewickelt
hat: so wirkt dieser allmaehlich zurueck auf die Sinnesart des Volks,
(wodurch dies der Freiheit zu handeln [A494] nach und nach faehiger
wird), und endlich auch sogar auf die Grundsaetze der Regierung, die
es ihr selbst zutraeglich findet, den Menschen, der nun mehr als
Maschine ist, seiner Wuerde gemaess zu behandeln.
Koenigsberg in Preussen, den 30. Septemb. 1784. I. Kant.
Kritik
der
reinen Vernunft
von
Immanuel Kant
Professor in Koenigsberg,
der Koenigl. Akademie der Wissenschaften in Berlin
Mitglied
Zweite hin und wieder verbesserte Auflage
(1787)
Zueignung
Vorrede
Einleitung
I. Von dem Unterschiede der reinen und empirischen Erkenntnis
II. Wir sind im Besitze gewisser Erkenntnisse a priori, und selbst der
gemeine Verstand ist niemals ohne solche
III. Die Philosophie bedarf einer Wissenschaft, welche die
Moeglichkeit, die Prinzipien und den Umfang aller Erkenntnisse a priori
bestimme
IV. Von dem Unterschiede analytischer und synthetischer Urteile
V. In allen theoretischen Wissenschaften der Vernunft sind synthetische
Urteile a priori als Prinzipien enthalten
VI. Allgemeine Aufgabe der reinen Vernunft
VII. Idee und Einteilung einer besonderen Wissenschaft, unter dem Namen
einer Kritik der reinen Vernunft
I. Transzendentale Elementarlehre
Erster Teil. Die transzendentale Aesthetik
P 1
1. Abschnitt. Von dem Raume
P 2. Metaphysische Eroerterung dieses Begriffs
P 3. Transzendentale Eroerterung des Begriffs vom Raume
2. Abschnitt. Von der Zeit
P 4. Metaphysische Eroerterung des Begriffs der Zeit
P 5. Transzendentale Eroerterung des Begriffs der Zeit
P 6. Schluesse aus diesen Begriffen
P 7. Erlaeuterung
P 8. Allgemeine Anmerkungen zur transzendentalen Aesthetik
Zweiter Teil. Die transzendentale Logik
Einleitung. Idee einer transzendentalen Logik
I. Von der Logik ueberhaupt
II. Von der transzendentalen Logik
III. Von der Einteilung der allgemeinen Logik in Analytik und Dialektik
IV. Von der Einteilung der transzendentalen Logik in die
transzendentale Analytik und Dialektik
Erste Abteilung. Die transzendentale Analytik
Erstes Buch. Die Analytik der Begriffe
1. Hauptstueck. Von dem Leitfaden der Entdeckung aller reinen
Verstandesbegriffe
1. Abschnitt. Von dem logischen Verstandesgebrauche ueberhaupt
2. Abschnitt
P 9. Von der logischen Funktion des Verstandes in Urteilen
3. Abschnitt
P 10. Von den reinen Verstandesbegriffen oder Kategorien
P 11
P 12
2. Hauptstueck. Von der Deduktion der reinen Verstandesbegriffe
1. Abschnitt
P 13. Von den Prinzipien einer transzendentalen Deduktion ueberhaupt
P 14. Uebergang zur transzendentalen Deduktion der Kategorien
2. Abschnitt. Transzendentale Deduktion der reinen Verstandesbegriffe
P 15. Von der Moeglichkeit einer Verbindung ueberhaupt
P 16. Von der urspruenglich-synthetischen Einheit der Apperzeption
P 17. Der Grundsatz der synthetischen Einheit der Apperzeption ist das
oberste Prinzip alles Verstandesgebrauchs
P 18. Was objektive Einheit des Selbstbewusstseins sei
P 19. Die logische Form aller Urteile besteht in der objektiven Einheit
der Apperzeption der darin enthaltenen Begriffe
P 20. Alle sinnliche Anschauungen stehen unter den Kategorien, als
Bedingungen, unter denen allein das Mannigfaltige derselben in ein
Bewusstsein zusammenkommen kann
P 21. Anmerkung
P 22. Die Kategorie hat keinen andern Gebrauch zum Erkenntnisse der
Dinge, als ihre Anwendung auf Gegenstaende der Erfahrung
P 23
P 24. Von der Anwendung der Kategorien auf Gegenstaende der Sinne
ueberhaupt
P 25
P 26. Transzendentale Deduktion des allgemein moeglichen
Erfahrungsgebrauchs der reinen Verstandesbegriffe
P 27. Resultat dieser Deduktion der Verstandesbegriffe
Zweites Buch. Die Analytik der Grundsaetze
Einleitung. Von der transzendentalen Urteilskraft ueberhaupt
1. Hauptstueck. Von dem Schematismus der reinen Verstandesbegriffe
2. Hauptstueck. System aller Grundsaetze des reinen Verstandes
1. Abschnitt. Von dem obersten Grundsatze aller analytischen Urteile
2. Abschnitt. Von dem obersten Grundsatze aller synthetischen Urteile
3. Abschnitt. Systematische Vorstellung aller synthetischen Grundsaetze
desselben
1. Axiome der Anschauung
2. Antizipationen der Wahrnehmung
3. Analogien der Erfahrung
A. Erste Analogie. Grundsatz der Beharrlichkeit der Substanz
B. Zweite Analogie. Grundsatz der Zeitfolge nach dem Gesetze der
Kausalitaet
C. Dritte Analogie. Grundsatz des Zugleichseins, nach dem Gesetze der
Wechselwirkung, oder Gemeinschaft
4. Die Postulate des empirischen Denkens ueberhaupt
Widerlegung des Idealismus
Allgemeine Anmerkung zum System der Grundsaetze
3. Hauptstueck. Von dem Grunde der Unterscheidung aller Gegenstaende
ueberhaupt in Phaenomena und Noumena
Anhang. Von der Amphibolie der Reflexionsbegriffe
Anmerkung zur Amphibolie der Reflexionsbegriffe
Zweite Abteilung. Die transzendentale Dialektik
Einleitung
I. Vom transzendentalen Schein
II. Von der reinen Vernunft als dem Sitze des transzendentalen Scheins
A. Von der Vernunft ueberhaupt
B. Vom logischen Gebrauche der Vernunft
C. Von dem reinen Gebrauche der Vernunft
Erstes Buch. Von den Begriffen der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Von den Ideen ueberhaupt
2. Abschnitt. Von den transzendentalen Ideen
3. Abschnitt. System der transzendentalen Ideen
Zweites Buch. Von den dialektischen Schluessen der reinen Vernunft
1. Hauptstueck. Von den Paralogismen der reinen Vernunft
Widerlegung des Mendelssohnschen Beweises der Beharrlichkeit der Seele
Beschluss der Aufloesung des psychologischen Paralogisms
Allgemeine Anmerkung, den Uebergang von der rationalen Psychologie zur
Kosmologie betreffend
2. Hauptstueck. Die Antinomie der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. System der kosmologischen Ideen
2. Abschnitt. Antithetik der reinen Vernunft
Erster Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
Zweiter Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
Dritter Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
Vierter Widerstreit der transzendentalen Ideen
3. Abschnitt. Von dem Interesse der Vernunft bei diesem ihrem
Widerstreite
4. Abschnitt. Von den transzendentalen Aufgaben der reinen Vernunft,
insofern sie schlechterdings muessen aufgeloeset werden koennen
5. Abschnitt. Skeptische Vorstellung der kosmologischen Fragen durch
alle vier transzendentalen Ideen
6. Abschnitt. Der transzendentale Idealism als der Schluessel zu
Aufloesung der kosmologischen Dialektik
7. Abschnitt. Kritische Entscheidung des kosmologischen Streits der
Vernunft mit sich selbst
8. Abschnitt. Regulatives Prinzip der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung der
kosmologischen Ideen
9. Abschnitt. Von dem empirischen Gebrauche des regulativen Prinzips der
Vernunft, in Ansehung aller kosmologischen Ideen
I. Aufloesung der kosmologischen Idee von der Totalitaet der
Zusammensetzung der Erscheinungen von einem Weltganzen
II. Aufloesung der kosmologischen Idee von der Totalitaet der Teilung
eines gegebenen Ganzen in der Anschauung
Schlussanmerkung zur Aufloesung der mathematisch-transzendentalen, und
Vorerinnerung zur Aufloesung der dynamisch-transzendentalen Ideen
III. Aufloesung der kosmologischen Ideen von der Totalitaet der
Ableitung der Weltbegebenheit aus ihren Ursachen
Moeglichkeit der Kausalitaet durch Freiheit, in Vereinigung mit dem
allgemeinen Gesetze der Naturnotwendigkeit
Erlaeuterung der kosmologischen Idee einer Freiheit in Verbindung mit
der allgemeinen Naturnotwendigkeit
IV. Aufloesung der kosmologischen Idee von der Totalitaet der
Abhaengigkeit der Erscheinungen, ihrem Dasein nach ueberhaupt
Schlussanmerkung zur ganzen Antinomie der reinen Vernunft
3. Hauptstueck. Das Ideal der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Von dem Ideal ueberhaupt
2. Abschnitt. Von dem transzendentalen Ideal (Prototypon
transscendentale)
3. Abschnitt. Von den Beweisgruenden der spekulativen Vernunft, auf das
Dasein eines hoechsten Wesens zu schliessen
4. Abschnitt. Von der Unmoeglichkeit eines ontologischen Beweises vom
Dasein Gottes
5. Abschnitt. Von der Unmoeglichkeit eines kosmologischen Beweises vom
Dasein Gottes
Entdeckung und Erklaerung des dialektischen Scheins in allen
transzendentalen Beweisen vom Dasein eines notwendigen Wesens
6. Abschnitt. Von der Unmoeglichkeit des physikotheologischen Beweises
7. Abschnitt. Kritik aller Theologie aus spekulativen Prinzipien der
Vernunft
Anhang zur transzendentalen Dialektik
Von dem regulativen Gebrauch der Ideen der reinen Vernunft
Von der Endabsicht der natuerlichen Dialektik der menschlichen Vernunft
II. Transzendentale Methodenlehre
1. Hauptstueck. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft im dogmatischen
Gebrauche
2. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung ihres
polemischen Gebrauchs
Von der Unmoeglichkeit einer skeptischen Befriedigung der mit sich
selbst veruneinigten reinen Vernunft
3. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung der
Hypothesen
4. Abschnitt. Die Disziplin der reinen Vernunft in Ansehung ihrer
Beweise
2. Hauptstueck. Der Kanon der reinen Vernunft
1. Abschnitt. Von dem letzten Zwecke des reinen Gebrauchs unserer
Vernunft
2. Abschnitt. Von dem Ideal des hoechsten Guts, als einem
Bestimmungsgrunde des letzten Zwecks der reinen Vernunft
3. Abschnitt. Vom Meinen, Wissen und Glauben
3. Hauptstueck. Die Architektonik der reinen Vernunft
4. Hauptstueck. Die Geschichte der reinen Vernunft
It's actually quite simple:
If you want to retrieve something from the unconscious,
you have to make sure you formulate it in a beautiful
way, in order to convince the guardians, but you also
have to contend yourself with only part of what you
have seen down there.
That is why Orpheus is not allowed to look back, he
can take his wife back up but nothing more.
delphi29@excite.com
In article <s01Ea.3973$xM5.2641937@news2.news.adelphia.net>,
"Sharyn" <sharyn721@adelphia.not> wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-41CCE7.08471703062003@news.bluewin.ch...
> > Thanks very much Sharyn for being the first person to ask me something
> > about my discoveries. I was really convinced this time that I would no
> > longer post (after about 100 newsgroup posts during the last year).
>
> That would be a shame, Alain, I'm glad you decided otherwise.
>
> I have been busy with other family things and so not able to give my full
> attention to the newsgroup, but please, don't go away. I want to discuss
> this at length with you as soon as time permits. (Likely to be after Monday
> when I am free to spend time with this.)
>
> Without going too much into it this morning, I would like to say that your
> models below would seem to require very subjective answers to "how a mother
> is towards her children," etc. This subjectivity has been a problem in the
> testing of astrological theory and tenets, IMHO. And, if we test only
> limited factors (such as a Sun sign only) without considering the rest of
> the chart's influence, then it seems likely that errors could result.
> Collecting enough accurate birth data for experiments such as you seem to be
> describing could be a problem also.
>
> It seems to me we need to test things that are much more concrete. Have you
> thought about testing the timing of critical illnesses, major life events,
> the effects of planting by the Moon's astrological sign and phase vs
> planting randomly, and so forth?
>
> These are thoughts that have long been rambling around in my own mind
> regarding the testing of astrology. I think that, not only do we need very
> simple models, we also need very concrete effects to show in order to
> eliminate the problem of subjectivity on the part of testing subjects.
>
> Anyway, hope to hear again from you on this, and will be back to respond
> with more depth to you post and talk about it all, as soon as possible.
Thank you so much. For me it is about a million times harder to write
something out into the void than to answer questions, reply and
discuss things. Talking quite concretely about how astrology can be
tested is something that interests me very much and I also feel that
the place here could be quite fruitful for that.
I feel a bit like the mother of my discoveries who has to ensure that
the child (initially) evolves well. For that I had also to test this
newsgroup, to feel its teeth. Despite its chart, it feels to me like
quite a protected place, a prerequisite for the growth of new things.
The charter aims (as far as I understand) to remove focus from
personal differences to discussing the issues, something I prefer,
especially as a scientist where ideally several scientists discuss
nature, leaving their personal interests aside.
Please anybody feel free to cite any of my previous statements on
any newsgroups and put them up for discussion here (as long as they
are relevant/allowed here, of course).
Give me some time to respond to your concrete comments and
suggestions. Let me just say this now: What is important in my setup
is maybe not really to get the correct factual situation from the
members of the family (except birth dates), but to predict accurately
what they will say about each other. The "fact" would in that case be
what they say, not what they do. I also have a completely different
approach in mind, but would like to present it later in some detail,
it consists essentially of tapping into the huge amount of digitial
(i.e. already computer-ready) data that the internet represents.
Thanks again,
Alain
Just in case: It is not my conscious intention to "put a spell" on
anybody as could be associated with Orpheus' shadow (see Pete P's post
about Wega in Orpheus' lyre, Lyra), but I acknowledge that there might
be a certain chance of something of that sort happening: This is not
what I want, and also not what would be good for the world or for me.
So I will try to avoid it and please remain critical of what I write
here. Note also that, although I have four planets in the 12th house,
I also have Saturn at the end of Pisces, so quite a bit of the piscean
quality of my posts is the result of several years of hard work and
possibly the main reason for the existence of the discoveries
document.
* The final build of discoveries.pdf was 5 March 2002 at 0.05 am
in Zurich, Switzerland (in UTC: 4 March 2002 at 23.05), chart:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/timeline.html
In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> There it is:
> Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> I'm free.
> Alain Stalder
> |:| :|:
> Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> Kant
>
> Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
What follows below may appear totally incoherent to some readers.
Don't worry, I am a physicist and know what I am doing. The
following just refers to different things, that are not all
visible here, and in a complex and intelligent way...
&%*!&! Jupiter-Neptune conjunction, creating such beautiful things:
I wrote that about Quaoar rising with Vega then just out of "Trotz"
(defiance), with the intent to show the fates that I can choose my
correlations myself and I even did a quick check to ensure that
Quaoar cannot be rising with Vega. Well, at that time I thought
that parans have to do with the path that a planet makes during the
day across the sky, whereas Quaoar rising with Vega actually means
that when Quaoar is rising above the horizon, Vega is rising above
the horizon too, although at a different place. Yes, you guessed
right, Vega was close to the horizon when Quaoar rose on August
7th, 1966 seen from Zurich, Switzerland. (I have to qualify this a
little bit, I am using an astronomical program that shows the
planets and the horizon, but only up to Pluto, so I have to
extrapolate by eye when Quaoar rose, and then Vega is quite close
to the horizon and it is rising too, which I can verify by checking
where it is an hour later).
But, in my defense, I also have to say that there is a much more
modest planet going down below the horizon around the same time,
namely Alsuhail or lambda Vela, the sail of the ship Argo, where
Alsuhail means, according to annew, "smooth plain" and has also the
suffix "al Wazn", "weight", "as the star seems to rise with
difficulty from the horizon".
So fates, what should I do ? Gimme a sign... ;)
But I guess this very thing here must have been the sign. So I will
do what I had planned all along, I will essentially just do my
thing, like Kant did and also in the sense of my northern node
being in Taurus. I will design and publish a document that brings
the crucial points of my discoveries to everybody, with lots of
illustrations. It will not go so deep as to hurt anybody, just be
beautiful and useful in everyday life. I will write it under my
pseudonym delphi29, resp. "Delphi Twentine" which will give me a
much more pleasant reception in the public, because delphi29 has a
different MC and AC than I do (and I have no idea which one and I
don't want to know it either). I guess that is part of following a
proven path II: I::, since software that I developed under the
pseudonym Delphi Twentine (an astrology program for PalmOS) is much
better received than what I ever made public under my real name,
Alain Stalder, like my discoveries or trueColor for HyperCard. And
I will essentially have to reverse the order in which I explain
things compared to the discoveries document, like Kant did in his
Prolegomena and others before him.
I will write and publish "easy to use astrology" resp. "Leicht
zugaengliche Astrologie" both in german and in english and publish
it very probably initially in electronic form, with the option for
others to provide translations and feedback, and then later, when
enough interest has been created to easily find a publisher, to
publish it as a little book that will be useful and helpful for
almost everybody.
I will discuss some issues related to astrology at aat or other
places, when desired, especially when it comes to helping with my
way of thinking and my experience as a scientist. But I will have
to avoid now to get again deep into complex psychological
constructs, like exploring things that I do not fully understand,
like houses or nodes and eclipses, or going deeper into certainly
interesting stuff like stellar parans. I will have to moderate
where I invest my energy, in the interest of everybody and try to
maintain modesty throughout.
Looking back, the above feels again like a mixture of
Jup-Neptune plus Uranus in Pisces, but it still feels right to
put this out. Jupiter is lucky
Quaoar rising with Vega and with setting Alsuhail, beauty and
modesty, Taurus.
Alain Stalder
In article <astalder25-1FEDE7.13374507062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> In article <astalder-B5E179.07435204062003@news.dplanet.ch>,
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > There it is:
> > Me: Quaoar rising with Vega.
> > I'm free.
> > Alain Stalder
> > |:| :|:
> > Franz Kafka - Das Schweigen der Sirenen
> > Kant
> >
> > Ref: <bbjbt0$4pd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
>
> What follows below may appear totally incoherent to some readers.
> Don't worry, I am a physicist and know what I am doing. The
> following just refers to different things, that are not all
> visible here, and in a complex and intelligent way...
>
> &%*!&! Jupiter-Neptune conjunction, creating such beautiful things:
>
> I wrote that about Quaoar rising with Vega then just out of "Trotz"
> (defiance), with the intent to show the fates that I can choose my
> correlations myself and I even did a quick check to ensure that
> Quaoar cannot be rising with Vega. Well, at that time I thought
> that parans have to do with the path that a planet makes during the
> day across the sky, whereas Quaoar rising with Vega actually means
> that when Quaoar is rising above the horizon, Vega is rising above
> the horizon too, although at a different place. Yes, you guessed
> right, Vega was close to the horizon when Quaoar rose on August
> 7th, 1966 seen from Zurich, Switzerland. (I have to qualify this a
> little bit, I am using an astronomical program that shows the
> planets and the horizon, but only up to Pluto, so I have to
> extrapolate by eye when Quaoar rose, and then Vega is quite close
> to the horizon and it is rising too, which I can verify by checking
> where it is an hour later).
>
> But, in my defense, I also have to say that there is a much more
> modest planet going down below the horizon around the same time,
> namely Alsuhail or lambda Vela, the sail of the ship Argo, where
> Alsuhail means, according to annew, "smooth plain" and has also the
> suffix "al Wazn", "weight", "as the star seems to rise with
> difficulty from the horizon".
>
[...]
>
> Quaoar rising with Vega and with setting Alsuhail, beauty and
> modesty, Taurus.
>
> Alain Stalder
Jupiter-Neptune fighting, luck and illusion.
A more detailed analysis reveals Vega and Alsuhail
not exactly rising with Quaoar. I still like
Alsuhail, mag 2.21 and 148 ly from here.
Alain
--
Details:
rise times from Planetarium on Palm, planetary
positions from astro.com
Ura rising 08h14, position 17 Vir 47
Nep rising 13h38, position 19 Sco 25
Qua position 54 Lib 47 => rising 10h23
Vega rising 11h47,
Alsuhail transit 12h31 -0.7deg^
A good inventor is not necessarily a good promoter.
The will be no more posts under the name Alain Stalder.
delphi29@excite.com
Keyword: exactphilosophy
Some elements of this matrix
Leda and the swan, Hermes and Helena, Robert Graves TGM 62
Quaoar rising with Sadr (Cygnus, breast of swan/Leda) setting
Alphecca, crown, Leda/Helena
egg, male/female divine/mortal children
"easy to use" will be one of them, custody transferred,
best wishes
Chiron and Prometheus, switching, sacrifice
Prometheus (forethought), Epimetheus (afterthought), Pandora
art of stealing the fire, leo invent, aquarius promote
(progress in imagination, reality), CH - AUS,US,...
1291-08-01 early morning (ch/europe vs. delphi/greece)
8
Uranus 8th planet, 8th gate anus (Milan Kundera), Ur-anus,
8 is two gates (two rings), lunar nodes, mouth and anus,
vegetative (lunar) tube through body, muscle is a ring,
Thomas Ring, falling and turning apple, modulate fate
by looking from the side (cf. bullet time)
64 parans, 8x8 (matrix), I Ching, Aquarius (AUS), Brady
internet, web (sagittarius), no existence without machines
and people, mind and matter, open, data source
Sabina Spielrein's heel: mark, urge for progress (RUS),
Jung "Russia gets the ball rolling" (bollingen tower),
Freud, "Die Destruktion als Ursache des Werdens" (scorpio, 8th)
Solaris, happy that I did not get Sabina Spielrein
1965-03-05 Ostrava (CZ) P
1963 sag Ostrava (CZ) S
the vane sisters (nabokov), Wow.
Dali, Duerrenmatt, and others, but most importantly Kant
Jupiter in Sagittarius, Plato, Petrarca
Charles Harvey, sun-Neptune, Jung, Proclus, Petrarca, AS
fox on ice, tree on mountain
21 (physics), Dirac, Feynman, Einstein (Mileva Maric),
Kafka (never managed to analyze), Milena
Libra (IC) and Scorpio (southern node)
separated by the greeks, still painful
autumn signs, water, decisions
Hi, judging from some recent posts to this group, the following link
is likely of interest here (at least to some readers):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
The site essentially proposes a few fresh points of view regarding
the complex consisting of "synchronicity", "quantum mechanics",
"telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", "tarot", etc.
These are, of course, issues that also C.G. Jung was interested in.
Now, independently of whether you attribute any reality to the above
terms (except in the minds of "believers"), the views at the site
above show some interesting connections between these phenomena,
which is potentially of considerable practical value: By putting all
these phenomena onto a unified basis, both scientific confirmation or
refutation could be hinged on a single basis, thus reducing complexity
significantly.
The stuff presented at the site above is complex -- optimally you
should come equipped an initially open mind, with a basic knowledge
of depth psychology, including astrology, and with some knowledge of
20th century physics (quantum mechanics and also the problems that
arise when one tries to combine QM with special relativity).
delphi29@excite.com
You seem to have completely missed the point of my post.
The web site I indicated shows a potential logical connection between
"phenomena" like "telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", etc. --
***independently*** of whether these "phenomena" are real or whether
they are just what some people believe.
Let me very quickly wrap up the proposed logical connection:
*IF* there were long-range emotional connections between people's
brains, and if these connections were largely unconscious to people,
then:
- There would be _telepathy_ (obviously).
- The connections would form a large "brain" -- let's call it the
_collective unconscious_.
- The collective unconscious would know more details about people
than any individual and hence collective thoughts could appear
as _precognition_ or _synchronicity_ to individuals.
- The collective unconscious would be very old, and hence it would
not be too far fetched to assume that it would still think in
ancient myths, in what Jung coined _Archetypes_.
- People would feel positive emotional feedback from the collective
unconscious to actions or thoughts that fit such collective
beliefs, and no feedback or negative feedback to actions or
thoughts that do not fit collective beliefs.
- One of these beliefs would be _astrology_, the belief that the
birth date is correlated to human behavior (and you could put
quite a few other collective beliefs, say "tarot", "I ching"
"talking to dead people", etc. into a similar bag).
So you get essentially all the buzzwords from a single hypothesis.
Now the question is:
a) Are there long-range emotional connections between people
b) or are the connections short-range or are using known channels
like speech or gestures and a lot is stored and emulated locally
in each human brain, with a similar overall effect as a) ?
If either a) or b) is experimentally confirmed, there would a good
reason to assume that "telepathy", "precognition", etc. are possible.
But if both a) and b) are refuted, that would immediately make
"telepathy", "precognition" etc. a lot less likely.
Knowledge is a double edged sword, it can help both sides of an issue.
> This guy is lucid. He goes straight from calling 30 of his claims
> "hypothesis" (which they are not) to all of a sudden calling them
> "facts" (ditto). There is absolutely no intervening steps which list
> any supporting evidence or experimental conditions in which he
> proved/disproved anything. This is not science and it is not
> scientific or logical. You can't determine what reality actually is by
> making wild arse guesses that are based on nothing more than feelings.
I would not react so harshly. Sure, the guy is taking chances to some
degree: Should a) be experimentally proved, he would look quite cool,
don't you think ? On the other hand, he is still quite careful with
the claims he makes. On the web site he states clearly that the
abstract merely wraps up the hypotheses in the document and in his
brief personal review:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/review.pdf
he states clearly also the possibility of b). And, of course, the
document is essentially scientific: Not all science is experimental,
there is theory too, and theory often comes before experiment.
(Think only of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, and how far
fetched and difficult to confirm it originally was).
Finally, as the quote in your signature implies,
> "Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch
Both you and Alain Stalder only have their own experience to think
with. And I, for my part, would not dismiss the experience of
an experimental physicist too quickly.
> Yes, and as Jung would have pointed out, the storytale that Alain
> Stalder made up tells us more about the psychology of Alain than it
> does about reality.
Now, that statement seems quite exaggerated. Turning things around,
you could, on the similar footing of a few posts by you, be qualified
as the stereotypical sceptic watchdog, like there are a few in many
newsgroups. Watchdogs bark at any stranger that strolls along or, in
this case, at any new ideas that they cannot immediately recognize
as (almost) old ideas.
Science is, of course, a completely different beast. A researcher in
science has to be initially open to new ideas, has to explore them with
an open mind to some extent, has to connect them to his experience, to
the experiments and theories he knows. He has to look for ways in which
the new ideas can be connected to what is known, he has to look for
specific hypotheses and experiments that would allow to tell things
apart. That is where it becomes crucial to be very sceptical, namely
when the decision has to be taken what will be allowed into science as
a new theory.
By the way, Jung wrote his famous essay about Synchronicity apparently
together with Wolfgang Pauli, the physicist who discovered the Pauli
exclusion principle and also predicted the neutrino, and who also coined
a term that sceptics frequently use: "That is not even wrong!". So,
it appears difficult to predict what they would have said about the
new ideas that you named "storytale". I cannot expect anybody to get
to their level, but I am sure you can do better than your initial reply.
> He mentions them in passing but they aren't necessary to understand
> anything he makes up about astrology and numerology is not a fact but
> a fantasy.
For b) you need no knowledge of modern physics, but for a) you do, as
is shown in detail in the document. The author shows in more detail
than actually necessary for a physicist that electromagnetic waves
(and any other known waves) can practically be excluded as a mechanism
for a). No alternative theory is presented, but some hints at possible
ingredients of future theories are still given. In order to fully
appreciate them, quite a deep fundamental understanding of modern
physics is required. Let me know if anybody is interested in a
summary of these hints here.
delphi29@excite.com
--
The Sage wrote:
> >Reply to article by: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
> >Date written: 18 Jun 2003 06:05:45 -0700
> >MsgID:<d12bedf0.0306180505.76f2a25f@posting.google.com>
> >Hi, judging from some recent posts to this group, the following link
> >is likely of interest here (at least to some readers):
> >http://www.exactphilosophy.net
> >The site essentially proposes a few fresh points of view regarding
> >the complex consisting of "synchronicity", "quantum mechanics",
> >"telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", "tarot", etc.
>
> This guy is lucid. He goes straight from calling 30 of his claims
> "hypothesis" (which they are not) to all of a sudden calling them
> "facts" (ditto). There is absolutely no intervening steps which list
> any supporting evidence or experimental conditions in which he
> proved/disproved anything. This is not science and it is not
> scientific or logical. You can't determine what reality actually is by
> making wild arse guesses that are based on nothing more than feelings.
>
> >These are, of course, issues that also C.G. Jung was interested in.
>
> Yes, and as Jung would have pointed out, the storytale that Alain
> Stalder made up tells us more about the psychology of Alain than it
> does about reality.
>
> >Now, independently of whether you attribute any reality to the above
> >terms (except in the minds of "believers"), the views at the site
> >above show some interesting connections between these phenomena,
> >which is potentially of considerable practical value: By putting all
> >these phenomena onto a unified basis, both scientific confirmation or
> >refutation could be hinged on a single basis, thus reducing complexity
> >significantly.
>
> He doesn't 'show' anything, he just blindly asserts everything.
>
> >The stuff presented at the site above is complex -- optimally you
> >should come equipped an initially open mind, with a basic knowledge
> >of depth psychology, including astrology, and with some knowledge of
> >20th century physics (quantum mechanics and also the problems that
> >arise when one tries to combine QM with special relativity).
>
> He mentions them in passing but they aren't necessary to understand
> anything he makes up about astrology and numerology is not a fact but
> a fantasy.
>
> The Sage
>
> =============================================================
> My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
>
> "Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch
> =============================================================
Let me just pick out one:
> >*IF* there were long-range emotional connections between people's
> >brains, and if these connections were largely unconscious to people,
> >then:
>
> That's two "ifs", not one, but there are many more that follow...
>
> >- There would be _telepathy_ (obviously).
>
> Only if telepathy exists.
I said effectively: "If there is a specific form of telepathy,
then there is telepathy"
You replied: "Only if telepathy exists"
The logical answer would have been: "Yes"
A discussion on this level makes no sense. You should consider
whether what you are doing in this newsgroup makes any sense.
delphi29@excite.com
--
The Sage wrote:
> >Reply to article by: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
> >Date written: 19 Jun 2003 09:07:09 -0700
> >MsgID:<d12bedf0.0306190807.21eb9cf9@posting.google.com>
> >You seem to have completely missed the point of my post.
>
> Or more likely, you completely missed the point of my post.
>
> >The web site I indicated shows a potential logical connection between
> >"phenomena" like "telepathy", "precognition", "astrology", etc. --
> >***independently*** of whether these "phenomena" are real or whether
> >they are just what some people believe.
>
> It isn't logical to make things up out of thin air, especially thirty
> things, and pretend that your make believe precepts are going to have
> anything at all to do with reality. Reality doesn't work that way, at
> least not the non-imaginary kind.
>
> >Let me very quickly wrap up the proposed logical connection:
>
> This doesn't look very "quick" to me...
>
> >*IF* there were long-range emotional connections between people's
> >brains, and if these connections were largely unconscious to people,
> >then:
>
> That's two "ifs", not one, but there are many more that follow...
>
> >- There would be _telepathy_ (obviously).
>
> Only if telepathy exists.
>
> >- The connections would form a large "brain" -- let's call it the
> > _collective unconscious_.
>
> Only if emotional connections could create a brain (I doubt any brain
> functions are due purely to it's emotional content).
>
> >- The collective unconscious would know more details about people
> > than any individual and hence collective thoughts could appear
> > as _precognition_ or _synchronicity_ to individuals.
>
> Only if the collective unconscious could read minds.
>
> >- The collective unconscious would be very old,
>
> How old would it be. No guessing now please.
>
> > and hence it would
> > not be too far fetched to assume that it would still think in
> > ancient myths, in what Jung coined _Archetypes_.
>
> Only if it were very old.
>
> >- People would feel positive emotional feedback from the collective
> > unconscious to actions or thoughts that fit such collective
> > beliefs, and no feedback or negative feedback to actions or
> > thoughts that do not fit collective beliefs.
>
> Only if the collective brain would give us some feedback.
>
> >- One of these beliefs would be _astrology_, the belief that the
> > birth date is correlated to human behavior (and you could put
> > quite a few other collective beliefs, say "tarot", "I ching"
> > "talking to dead people", etc. into a similar bag).
>
> Only if there is a connection between the collective brain and the
> occult religions. No such connection has been postulated and no such
> connection has certainly been observed to exist.
>
> >So you get essentially all the buzzwords from a single hypothesis.
>
> All you get is a bunch of blind faith assertions. No facts, just all
> talk. No objective observations or any of the reality of these things,
> just "trust me when I pretend the following might be true...".
>
> >Now the question is:
>
> Questions based on blind faith assertion is nonsense. The only place
> such questioning can lead one is in circles.
>
> >Finally, as the quote in your signature implies,
> >>"Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> >>his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch
> >Both you and Alain Stalder only have their own experience to think
> >with.
>
> That is not correct. I have something beyond experience and it is
> called logic and reasoning and the scientific method. There are ways
> to know what the world is like outside the little bubble world of our
> minds. The purpose of the quote was to demonstrate just how futile it
> is to use just experience to try and get to know reality, because
> everyone has a different experience for the same things.
>
> >And I, for my part, would not dismiss the experience of
> >an experimental physicist too quickly.
>
> And what makes an experimental physicist's experience any different
> from your's or mine? Have you ever heard of the logical fallacy of
> appeal to authority?
>
> >>Yes, and as Jung would have pointed out, the storytale that Alain
> >>Stalder made up tells us more about the psychology of Alain than it
> >>does about reality.
> >Now, that statement seems quite exaggerated.
>
> No exaggeration needed, it is exactly what Jung said. All of his
> studies of fairytales, myths, and astrology were examples of where
> Jung used the "theories" of the people of those times to unconsciously
> tell tales about how their minds work (they certainly weren't tales of
> actual reality).
>
> >Turning things around,
> >you could, on the similar footing of a few posts by you, be qualified
> >as the stereotypical sceptic watchdog, like there are a few in many
> >newsgroups. Watchdogs bark at any stranger that strolls along or, in
> >this case, at any new ideas that they cannot immediately recognize
> >as (almost) old ideas.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. It won't change the fact that I am right. I'm only
> interested in facts, not name calling.
>
> >Science is, of course, a completely different beast.
>
> You don't know what science is then.
>
> >A researcher in
> >science has to be initially open to new ideas, has to explore them with
> >an open mind to some extent, has to connect them to his experience, to
> >the experiments and theories he knows.
>
> On the contrary, science begins with doubt. "I respect faith, but
> doubt is what gives you an education." (Wilson Mizner)
>
> "Science must begin with myths, and with the criticism of myths." (Sir
> Karl Popper)
>
> >He has to look for ways in which
> >the new ideas can be connected to what is known, he has to look for
> >specific hypotheses and experiments that would allow to tell things
> >apart. That is where it becomes crucial to be very sceptical, namely
> >when the decision has to be taken what will be allowed into science as
> >a new theory.
>
> This is also crucial where it becomes necessary for a scientist to
> find errors and uncover flaws.
>
> "There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and
> must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for
> any evidence, to correct any errors." (J. Robert Oppenheimer, Life, 10
> October 1949)
>
> >By the way, Jung wrote his famous essay about Synchronicity apparently
> >together with Wolfgang Pauli, the physicist who discovered the Pauli
> >exclusion principle and also predicted the neutrino, and who also coined
> >a term that sceptics frequently use: "That is not even wrong!". So,
> >it appears difficult to predict what they would have said about the
> >new ideas that you named "storytale". I cannot expect anybody to get
> >to their level, but I am sure you can do better than your initial reply.
>
> Those are exceptions to the rule and not the rule. Think about how
> many things served us yesterday as articles of faith but today are
> just myths and fables! Flat Earth? Tripanation? Exorcisms? The
> Philosopher's Stone?
>
> >>He mentions them in passing but they aren't necessary to understand
> >>anything he makes up about astrology and numerology is not a fact but
> >>a fantasy.
> >For b) you need no knowledge of modern physics, but for a) you do, as
> >is shown in detail in the document.
>
> That assertion has yet to be proved.
>
> Only one page contained any reference to modern physics and that one
> page offered nothing new that we already didn't know about physics.
> Blind faith assertion doesn't require physics, just some claims made
> in the absence of evidence.
>
> And the scientific method teaches us that the proper thing to do when
> presented with a claim that cannot be backed up with a shred of actual
> evidence, is to doubt that claim. Doubt is the beginning of scientific
> wisdom; belief is the beginning of religion.
>
> "Science tells us what we can know but what we can know is little and
> if we forget how much we cannot know we become insensitive of many
> things of very great importance. Theology, on the other hand induces a
> dogmatic belief that we have knowledge where in fact we have ignorance
> and by doing so generates a kind of impertinent insolence towards the
> universe. Uncertainty in the presence of vivid hopes and fears is
> painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of
> comforting fairy tales" (Bertrand Russell)
>
> >The author shows in more detail
> >than actually necessary for a physicist that electromagnetic waves
> >(and any other known waves) can practically be excluded as a mechanism
> >for a). No alternative theory is presented, but some hints at possible
> >ingredients of future theories are still given. In order to fully
> >appreciate them, quite a deep fundamental understanding of modern
> >physics is required. Let me know if anybody is interested in a
> >summary of these hints here.
>
> Name just one of the thirty "hypothesis" that were stated that require
> a "deep fundamental understanding of modern physics". It doesn't
> exist. Every single one of the "hypothesis" can be understood without
> any knowledge of physics.
>
> The Sage
>
> =============================================================
> My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
>
> "Don't forget that everybody, including yourself, has only
> his own experience to think with" -- Rudolf Flesch
> =============================================================
keyword: exactphilosophy
Just in case:
I said effectively: "If there is a specific form of telepathy,
then there is telepathy"
A := "There is telepathy"
B := <some specifications>
A and B => A
<=> not (A and B) or A
<=> not A or not B or A
<=> (not A or A) or not B
<=> true or not B
<=> true
In other words, the logical answer would have been: "Yes"
You replied: "Only if telepathy exists"
(A <=> (A and B => A)
<=> (A <=> true)
<=> A
Your statement is true if telepathy exists and false otherwise.
delphi29@excite.com
--
I wrote:
> I said effectively: "If there is a specific form of telepathy,
> then there is telepathy"
> You replied: "Only if telepathy exists"
> The logical answer would have been: "Yes"
*Philip* wrote:
> If the moon is made of green cheese then I can fly around the room.
;)
SynchroniCity wrote:
[older references cut]
> Fromm Rey of SynchroniCity:
>
> Having a number of experiences myself, I would agree. You're point about
> 'the role of the observer' is an interesting
> topic.
>
> My visualization is as though the entire monadology were constructed in such
> a way that we are copies of ourselves in various dimensions simultaneously.
> Each 'iota', that is each 'position' occupies an 'imaginary' place
> (imaginary not in the psychological, but in the monadological sense).
>
> Time thereby becomes subordinate to 'place'. And therin lies the
> 'fabric of the universe' so to say if we look at MINKowski's (Nobel Prize
> winner) multi dimensional coordinate system and his self admitted simplistic
> film like view of the universe.
>
> By viewing the "scroll of creation", each frame has us in a 'position' so
> that each iota of 'change' alters an entire paradigm, like a hall of mirrors
> where the beam reflects/reflexes according to that given 'propensity'.
>
> For me, and I'm sure many who have questionned why light is considered to be
> the fastest velocity, I "believe" that everything, 'past', 'present' and
> 'future' exist simultaneously, though for us, they do not. And for me
> that explains why the hubble had discovered space being created faster than
> the velocity of light.
>
> In turn, that means, in my opinion, that every 'iota' of thought, word and
> deed means an 'expansion' of the 'multi verses' because it occupies 'place'
> (different than than space but not necessarily opposed to it), a sort of
> entropy. And even if this were 'exhausible' it would still be
> 'perostiokable' that is, reconstructable as 'acts of creation'.
>
> Which now gets us back to the 'observer' because it seems to me that the
> 'relationship' between the microcosm and macrocosm according to my
> 'philosphical view' would have to be changed each and every time we merely
> observe (unless we can freeze the exact same 'light beam" and 'hall of
> mirrors' from bouncing and dancing rings around us. But I don't think
> mankind can do that in an absolute sense, only 'good enough' for our
> particular parameters to produce things for our existence).
>
> RE
Hi, I have been listening to your interesting conversation, and would
like to share a few not so commonly known points related to these
subjects, maybe as inspiration for new thoughts, if you don't mind.
(In my experience, new ideas often emerge when connecting known ideas
or facts to different ideas or facts).
I have essentially 3 points to share. The first two are about quantum
mechanics and measurement. The first of these is something that is
in principle known in physics since a long time, but still not much
recognized. The second is about some rather recent developments in
quantum mechanics, namely what is usually called "decoherence". The
third point is related to astrology and Aristotle's view of the four
elements, and especially tries to relate the elementary properties
"dry/wet" to "in/out" or maybe "subject/object", "mind/matter",
"me/world", "reality/wave function", etc.
1 - The Reason for Antiparticles
In a booklet called "Elementary Particle Physics and the Laws of
Physics"
from 1989 a lecture by Richard P. Feynman is reproduced (in memorial
of
another Nobel Prize winning scientist, P.A.M. Dirac). That lecture has
the above title "The Reason for Antiparticles".
(The beginning of Feynman's lecture can be read online at amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521658624/qid=1056270809/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-7778650-2824641?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
Feynman uses a relatively simple argument to explain why antiparticles
are a necessary consequence of combining quantum mechanics with the
special theory of relativity. He essentially argues as follows:
- In scattering processes, there is always a probability amplitude
for intermediary (virtual) particles that "fly" faster than the
speed of light.
- According to special relativity, if there is a spacelike distance
between two events A and B (in other words a particle exchanged
between A and B would have to "fly" faster than light) then it
depends on the observer whether the particle is emitted at A and
then absorbed a B or emitted at B and then absorbed at A.
(This is an elementary consequence of special relativity:
Say I light a match at time 0, and you light a match at time 0
too, but a few thousand miles from me. Then there are always
observers (people moving relative to us) who either see me
light the match first or see you light you the match first.)
- If the exchanged particle is charged, then one observer will see
(say) an electron emitted at A and later absorbed at B but another
observer would see a positron (the positively charged antiparticle
of the electron) emitted at an earlier time at B and absorbed
a bit later at A. Feynman put it more simply: "[...] we can say that
one man's virtual particle is the other man's virtual antiparticle."
Feynman used this to show how antiparticles come about. But for more
philosophical discussions, I think the fact that faster than light
connections behind the scenes (i.e. not directly observable because
they only occur in virtual processes) are a direct consequence of
combining quantum mechanics and special relativity, is interesting.
The two questions that are asked at the beginning of section 4 of
the document that I mentioned in my first post,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
come from the same angle:
> Q1 Are quantum mechanical correlations mediated by virtual particles
> behind the scenes ? Since virtual particles can "fly" faster than
> at the speed of light, this would mean that behind the scenes
> everything is connected to everything that is, was and will be.
>
> Q2 Consequently, does the result of a quantum mechanical
> measurement come about by summing over all virtual particles in
> some way ? Does that mean that reality is just a matter of will ?
The second part of the first question is maybe best explained with
an example:
- Event A: I light a candle.
- Event B: You are a light minute away from me on a space ship and
light a candle 30 seconds after me (we are not moving relative to
each other).
- Event C: 30 seconds afterwards (or 1 minute after event A), I
blow out the candle.
- Now, there would be some observers who see event C before event B
and also observers who see event B before A. Hence there is a
connection from C back to A, from future back to past.
- In that way any event in the universe can in principle be
connected to any other event that has happened, is happening or
will happen.
- Or more loosely and specifically: When the candle is lit at A, it
already "knows" how long it will burn.
The way the second question is formulated is maybe a bit misleading.
Today's quantum field theories do the following: You have a process
with some incoming particles that the experimentor prepares or
observes to be in some quantum mechanical state. From that input
possible outputs are calculated in a complicated manner by summing
over all possible intermediary states. The result is then some
probability amplitudes or in a concrete measurement the probabilities
of certain things being measured.
The idea of Q2 is to reformulate quantum field theory in terms of
definite (not probabilistic) properties of particles, which would
then necessarily be of non-local* and hence anything in the universe
would in principle influence the outcome of any experiment in quantum
mechanics. Of course the hard part would be to explicitly reformulate
quantum field theory and reproduce the statistical properties of
current theories.
* Due to the EPR paradox and Bell's inequalities.
2 - Decoherence
The buzz word "decoherence" summarizes some recent results in
*applying*
quantum mechanics. It appears from calculations and also from some
experimental results, that even minuscule interaction of a macroscopic
body with its environment can make it behave essentially classical.
What the above words mean precisely is a lot more subtle than it may
first appear. Let me elaborate:
In Schrodinger's famous thought experiment a cat is brought into a
superposition of states for "alive" and "dead". Now, in principle,
if you had two such cats in superposition states, you could have
them interact (without looking) and would find interference, would
find results that do not agree with classical (non-QM) logic.
What decoherence says now, is that you cannot do that, because,
due to the interaction of the cat with its environment (it emits
and absorbs light, for example), it will behave essentially like
a classical cat. It will sort of export its coherency into the
environment where it will be sort of mixed up in the complexity
of the world and be practically lost.
Since the cat is a living being, with probably some conscience too,
I would like to get away from the cat for the moment and note that
any macroscopic measurement device automatically decoheres what it
measures. So the simple fact that any measurement in quantum
mechanics needs an experimental apparatus that is macroscopic,
makes things already statistically classical, before a conscious
observer looks at anything.
Now it gets even more tricky: Even though the measurement apparatus
will behave statistically completely classical, one still cannot
conclude that what has been measured (say photon hit detector or not)
is already determined independently of the observer looking at the
detector. That is probably most easily seen from the following
thought experiment that was first proposed by Alain Stalder at
the moderated newsgroup sci.physics.research:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-A850F5.13133713012003%40news.bluewin.ch
The idea is to look at decoherence in combination with a setup
for testing the Einstein-Podolski-Rosen paradox. Two photons with
correlated polarization are emitted into opposite directions.
They fly through polarization filters into detectors on each side.
Now, Bell has shown that the experimental results predicted by
quantum mechanics would exclude any local hidden variable theories
in which the state of the photons would allow to determine what
the detectors measure. In other words, the assumption that the
measurement result of the detector is already determined before
somebody looks at it, leads to a contradiction with Bell's inequality,
with two possible exits:
- The measurement result of the detector is not determined before
somebody consciously looks at it.
- The measurement result of the detector is independent of a
conscious observer, and there is a hidden variable theory which
must be non-local.
Here is a quite readable introduction to decoherence, by J.A. Wheeler
and M. Tegmark (it appeared in Scientific American):
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0101077
They say: "Even though the wave function technically never collapses
in the Everett view, it is generally agreed that decoherence produces
an effect that looks like a collapse and smells like a collapse."
In light of the above thought experiment, the general opinion might
be a bit too optimistic in this case.
Now back to Schrodinger's cat. Tegmark has also written a paper in
which he argues that the human brain, since it is very little
isolated from the environment, decoheres very quickly. In other
words, Tegmark argues that quantum mechanics plays no crucial
role in thinking. I would tend to object to that. This may be
true for a dead brain, but whether that is also true for a living
brain remains to be seen. Roger Penrose has written a book that
shows a somewhat different perspective, although some of it is
arguably speculative and disputable.
An interesting qualitative property of decoherence is that it
does remove the observer somewhat from the center that it usually
has in quantum mechanics. That leads to the suspicion that in the
end, a unified description of nature can be found that describes
experimentator, objects of experimentation and measurement devices
in the same unified way. In another post to sci.physics.research,
Alain Stalder compares this to the situation in astronomy a few
hundred years ago:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-84CD8B.22103722012003%40news.bluewin.ch
> This shift appears at least qualitatively similar to what
> happened in astronomy a few hundred years ago: With man at the center
> of the universe, it was no problem to predict planetary positions
> with an accuracy that was sufficient for all practical purposes, by
> summing over epicycles. In retrospect, however, people did not really
> have a clue what was going in the sky until people like Galilei and
> Newton managed to find a different and much simpler perspective.
Symbolically, quantum mechanics and ancient astronomy do something
quite similar. They add up some periodic quantities (phases of wave
functions resp. epicylces) to predict the future.
3 - Dry/Wet and In/Out
In the text "On Generation and Corruption", Aristotle has considered
what can be touched to be most elementary. He considers the four
elements
Fire, Air, Water, Earth to be combinations of "dry/wet" and
"hot/cold":
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8gc/
(see mainly chapter 2 and 3 of book II)
Fire = hot+dry
Air = wet+hot
Water = cold+wet
Earth = dry+cold
There are lots of immediate associations that can be made with these
abstract pairs "dry/wet" and "hot/cold". Aristotle associates dry
with hard+brittle and wet with soft+malleable. This corresponds quite
nicely with what is commonly associated in psychological astrology
with the more flexible wet signs Air and Water, which can bend and
flow psychologically, compared to the dry signs Fire and Earth which
are considered to be harder and more defined.
What I would like to argue here, is that the pair "dry/wet" can also
be identified in many respects with "in/out". Take quantum mechanics.
It is, like any scientific theory, a piece of logic, a piece of Air.
In quantum mechanics, the outcome of results is calculated in terms
of adding waves (wave function), hence in terms of Water.
What you measure however, is reality, hence Earth, and is also what
you see, Fire, because fire produces light that is needed to see
what is going on.
In other words, the outside, observed world, is dry (Earth+Fire),
whereas the inside, mental world is wet (Air+Water).
This might, for example, explain why in quantum theory there are
virtual processes (particles) that are not bound by the speed of
light, whereas everything that is measured is bound by the speed
of light. In other words, the mind is free to imagine things
moving at any speed, but real things are more restricted. This
also reminds of Plato's cave parable, hints at that our views
of reality may be quite strange projections of the underlying
reality.
There is also quite an interesting application of the identification
dry/wet with in/out in psychological astrology, that was first
proposed in this post to alt.astrology.moderated last year:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=astalder-B71E28.07514428092002%40news.bluewin.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/flow.html
The idea is essentially that signs that oppose each other in the
zodiac direct their drives initially into opposite directions.
The dry sign will direct its initial drive towards the outside,
the wet sign towards the inside. Take the axis Virgo-Pisces,
for example. Virgo is an Earth sign and hence dry, whereas Pisces
is a Water sign and hence wet. Now the idea is that Virgo initially
tries to sort the outside world, to make it more ordered, more
structured. That imbalance can, however, cause quite a bit of
imbalance inside Virgo's head. In order to sort the world, you
need to have lots of details in your head to compare and sort.
In contrast, Pisces appear to have quite a clear mind, as suggested,
for example, by Liz Greene in her popular book about Star Signs.
Pisces often get quite quickly bored from talking to other people,
namely as soon as these people and what they say has been categorized
internally. Pisces quite quickly recognizes the bias of others and
after a while gets bored by it. The outside lives of Pisces, however,
can often be quite disordered.
Similarly, the relation to drugs, to loosing control in the mind,
could be related quite directly to this. Pisces likes to escape the
clarity and boring structuredness in its mind whereas Virgo rather
avoids anything that increases the chaos in the head.
Any imbalance leads to counterreactions, both inside and outside of
one's head (the latter through reactions of other people).
Sorry that this post got so long. Initially I thought it could be
made shorter, but these matters are complex. Anyway, I have another
reference that I would like to recommend. However, it is written
in german, so that probably most people here will not have access
to it. It is a text by Werner Held with the title "Die 1 und die 2"
(the 1 and the 2) and deals with the problem "1/2" "in/out" etc.
from different angles, including quantum mechanics. Link:
http://people.freenet.de/soleil7/
Thanks for anybody who read all the way through here and feel free
to start new threads if you want to pick up just one of the many
aspects touched here. I guess all of it is more or less connected
to issues that mattered to C.G. Jung.
delphi29@excite.com
Reflections - 131072
Hi, there.
With this post I would like to start a loose series of
reflections concerning random parts of "A few new
discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
Usually there will be a strong link to astrology in these
reflections, so that it should be suitable to publish
them here at aat. If occasionally that is not the case,
I will publish to a more appropriate newsgroup and put
up a notice here (if that is allowed) so that people
who are generally interested can easily find it.
I have the discoveries document in text form. It is
126'848 bytes long, which is just a few bytes less than
17 bits (131'072). So I will toss 17 coins and then
look up in the document what sentence or sentences are
around that spot. That will give the topic for the
current reflection. In the rare case (3% chance) that
my coins point to something beyond the document, I will
interpret that as a wildcard and freely chose a topic.
About me: "Delphi Twentine" is, of course, a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder. But, since a pseudonym also has a
creation (birth) date, "Delphi Twentine" is apparently
a lot easier to understand in public, whereas anything
published under the name "Alain Stalder" reveals the
moon at the MC and hence can give sort of a "lunatic"
public appearance ("lunatic" comes from "luna"="moon").
I would like to keep the reflections on a conscious
level. In other words, I will present some background
information, make some connections more evident and
also potentially connect to new facts and ideas, but
I will try to refrain from trying to dig up new deep
secrets from the unconscious.
My inspiration for this column were Pete P's series
about stellar parans and a column by Barbara Hutzl-Ronge
that is now regularly appearing at www.astro.com, so far
only in german, though. The recent article is about a
german-speaking baker who had lost his job in a small
village at the age of 61. He then spent months sitting
on his sofa, doing nothing. His wife cut out job offers
and put them on the couch table, but nothing happened.
For fun, his nephew also brought a job offer for a job
in London. Days later, the baker called London, found
out that the owner there had a german accent, ..., and
now he is living and working in London, selling
Schwarzwalder cake even to the Queen!
Barbara Hutzl-Ronge related this transformation to
Uranus and, since the column appeared at the beginning
of June, it is also related to Gemini, including the
kid (nephew) who playfully, randomly brought new life.
In that spirit, let me start right with an exception
to the rule and let me consciously choose the sentence
that I will talk about this time...
Reflections - 131072
Quote (Section 3.9.10 Capricorn, Seasons):
> This is also a time when seeds are planted for
> new things to grow in spring.
This is inspired by the great drawing by Charles Harvey
that is published in his article about Sun-Neptune squares:
http://www.astrology-world.com/articles/harvey.html
There he has "MID-WINTER" at the bottom of the wheel,
above it the word "NEW MOON", below it "SEED". Opposite
it, at the beginning of summer, he has "MIDSUMMER",
"NOON", "FULL MOON" and "NEWSEED". (Not astonishingly,
this series here starts to grow some fruits on an
existing plant, right at the beginning of summer.)
Both Cancer and Capricorn are cardinal and female. They
show the female way of starting something new, which is
more organic than the male ways of Aries and Libra.
Water is usually passive, it flows down. You need the
pressure inside a source/spring to make it eject. Or
take the myth of Heracles fighting the Hydra in the
swamps. Heracles is bitten in the foot by a large crab,
who gets its place in the sky from Hera because it was
so obedient. Hence the creative force comes from the
mother, from nature (according to Robert Graves in the
index of "The Greek Myths", Heracles means "glory of
Hera", and Hera means "protectress"). Thus evolves the
cycle of obedience and disobedience, of internal growth
and letting things out, sharing them with others.
Since I do not want to cover anything fully or in a
very structured manner in these reflections, let me
just stop here, there are enough clues for some nice
things to consider...
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
Thanks a lot. This fits also with the limited experience that I have.
Except for the quincunx Pisces-Leo, where I think there is also a
strong desire back from Leo to Pisces. Pisces are at the end of the
winter. It is natural for them to dream of the summer, of not having
to do anything to survive, of not having to suffer, of just lying in
the sun and imagining things. Conversely, mutable Pisces are an ideal
projection surface for Leo, who symbolizes a young adult man who
initially likes all women, everything that is female. Pisces allow
him to project all these desires onto a single woman.
I don't know how these two views about Leo-Pisces that I can both
recognize fit together, but maybe (or probably) that is exactly
what is typical of the quincunx, that you never gain certainty or
clarity about how things "really" are. Maybe that is it, which also
makes the quincunx between Leo and Pisces a bit special, since both
are so much about imagination and illusions.
I remember Milan Kundera writing about the image that in earlier
times people were both male and female and that then god split them
into two halves that are now erring about the world in search of
their other half. A bit more profanely, I imagine myself on a beach
that is full of pebbles that are broken in half. I am holding one
pebble and am looking for one that matches. Most will simply not
fit and will be discarded immediately. Some will just fit, and I
might keep them together for a while, but then it gets just boring
and I try another one. Then I find one that first appears to be just
what I have been looking for. But no matter how often I try they
only almost fit together. I turn them around, but to no avail. Then
I see a button and push it. Maybe that will do it. But no, it still
does not fit, but now it is different, that button made something
else appear on the pebble. Maybe that can be used to make the two
things fit together, if I just try this -- and so on...
Thanks a lot again,
delphi29@excite.com
--
doovinator) wrote:
> Hey, this is really cool. I've long noted a pattern in unrequited
> romantic attraction between the "nearer" and "further" of signs in
> quincunx--the passion flows to the nearer sign in a "ring around the
> rosy" fashion, so that aries is strongly attracted to virgo, who
> couldn't care less; virgo to aquarius, who's completely blind to virgo;
> aquarius to cancer, who's stuck on a sagittarius, chasing after an
> indifferent taurus, who really likes libra, who prefers pisces, who has
> the hots for a clueless leo intent on a capricorn, but capricorn is
> stuck on a gemini who can't get scorpio off the mind, while scorpio
> moons after the original aries like a puppy dog. I've seen this pattern
> a zillion times; even in successful marriages it still plays out that
> the spouse on the "near" side is far more passionate about the
> attraction than the one commnicating to the "far" side. That there's a
> "near" and "far" (I know, occidental and oriental, but that's not how my
> brain cells THINK about it) to any aspect save conjunction and
> opposition is certainly clear upon reflection but it's a pond I've never
> thought to look in. Thanks for bringing it up.
>
> <ETH>J
Reflections - 15693
Hi there.
This is reflection 2 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
Let me first quickly explain how I get from 17 coins
to a passage in the document: I shake the coins for
about 5 minutes in my hands and then let them drop
onto my carpet. Then I sort the coins top-down and
left-right (if it is not clear which is on top). For
that I use the lines on my carpet. For 5 coins, for
example, the order would be as follows:
~~~~~~(1)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~(2)~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~(3)~~~~~(4)~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~(5)~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Suppose I get HTTHH with 5 coins, where H means head
and T means tail. The last coin is worth 1 if it is
H and 0 if it is T. The next coin is worth 2 if it
is H and 0 if it is T. And so on doubling the value
for H each time. In this example, the number would
be 1+2+0+0+16 = 19. With 17 coins you can get larger
numbers, between 0 and 131'071, to be precise. That
gives me the offset in the plain text version of
the discoveries document.
This time I got TTTH'HHHT'HTHT'THHT'H or 15'693.
This points to the last "s" in "symbols" in the
following passage from Section 2.2:
> The symbol*s* for the four elements are essentially
> triangles, the ones for the hot elements point up,
> the ones for the cold elements point down. When
> superimposed, they form the hexagram which symbolizes
> the important greek view that "what is above
> corresponds to what is beneath".
Greek culture has flourished most during the second
half of the Age of Aries. Maybe that is why it shows
clear traits of Libra, sort of as a counterreaction
to too much imbalance by Aries. Yet, the abstract
beauty of Greek culture also shows some very concrete
traits. Let me touch just two of them here.
The hot elements Fire and Air are the male ones.
Their symbols are triangles that point up (Air has
additionally a horizontal line in the middle). They
represent the male trinity composed of two testicles
and a (erect) penis. Together with the two female
(cold) elements Water and Earth with their triangle
of fate that points down, the hexagram symbolizes
also quite directly sexual intercourse.
But then again, this hints at more fundamental truths
of life: During the time of the Greeks, todays zodiac
with 12 equally sized star signs got its final form.
That included the splitting of the original sign of
Scorpio into two parts: The scissors of Scorpio were
removed and became the scale pans of Libra. In that
sense, the ancient Greeks created their own sign to
balance Aries.
Libra and Scorpio are the two older adult signs, they
are the signs with the optimal balance between ability
and experience, they are the ones who have to make the
most important decisions. That is a lonely task. No
other signs are more alienated from the ground that
they came from. Signs that come earlier in the circle
or later are still or already closer to the ground.
So, the splitting up of Scorpio into two parts is a
symbol of that painful and lonely task that can only be
relieved a bit during the few moments of sexual union.
A separation occurs also during birth, so the hexagram
quite directly symbolizes the moments that astrology
considers, namely when things meet or are separated.
It appears possible that the Greeks took "what is
above corresponds to what is beneath" also quite
literally by associating different regions in Greece
with different star signs. At least that is suggested
in the following article:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
The text appears to be from a book by Jean Richer
"Sacred Geography of The Ancient Greeks, Astrological
Symbolism in Art, Architecture, and Landscape", but
possibly the text is by Edmond Wollmann. (The book is
available from amazon.com, with a few pages readable
online; the french original "Geographie sacree du
monde grec" is available from amazon.fr, for example).
I am not a historian, so it is hard to judge for me
if the claim is correct. But it is interesting that in
Greek mythology the myths are essentially timeless,
but far from *placeless*. Mostly the places where the
myths happen and where the heroes live are described
quite in detail. It might be interesting to see if they
correlate in any way with the map that is proposed at
the above site. Direct link to the map:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/images/platoo1.jpg
That's almost it for this reflection. Since this is the
first time that I actually tossed the coins, and there
seems to be quite a direct link between what I wrote
above and my improvised "divination system", I would
like to seize the opportunity and explore the symbols in
detail in a reply to this post (to keep this post from
growing too long).
I expect to publish my reflections in the future roughly
every two weeks from the first reflection. So expect the
next one roughly in 3 weeks.
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Delphi revisited
The place in the center of the proposed Greek zodiac
is, of course, Delphi, the place in the mountains of
Greece where Apollon's famous oracle was located.
Similarly, where I live, in Switzerland, is a small
country in the mountains, in the middle of Europe,
with Italy in the south, Germany in the north, France
in the west and Austria in the east.
In greek mythology, Zeus one day let two eagles fly,
one from the east and one from the west. They met at
the navel of the world, in Delphi. Similarly, let me
take you on a symbolic flight on one of the eagles,
from Switzerland to the city I live, and zoom in on
my carpet and the symbols on the coins that I use.
Maybe not astonishingly, Switzerland has no clear
founding date, except a mythological one. According
to the legend, three representants of three small
regions in central Switzerland met early in the
morning on one of the first days of August in 1291
and put up 3 fingers each to make an oath to stick
together in unison agains Habsburg. That moment with
3 x 3 = 9 fingers up in the air clearly says fate.
(There is a document from September 1291 that states
roughly the same intent of unity, but in all history
books that I have seen, it is considered merely a
prolongation of already existing contracts, so the
"true" origins of Switzerland remain unknown.)
Let me take a look at the chart for August 1st, 1291
(1st because that is the day that the Swiss national
holiday is celebrated by lighting fires and firework):
The most striking thing are all the planets in Leo
and Libra. Sun, Mercury, Mars, Uranus and northern
node are in Leo; moon and Neptune are in Libra.
That gives a strong link to Delphi, because of the
sun god Apollon (Leo) and of the balance coming from
the two eagles and the most important Greek oracle.
Saturn in Aries, Venus right at the transition between
Gemini and Cancer (like the sun in my first reflection
post), and last, but not least, a retrograde Pluto in
Aquarius, are certainly interesting too.
I live in the state of Zurich, which also contains
the largest city of Switzerland, Zurich. Zurich's
animal is the lion, a rather frienly and calm lion,
unlike most lions around Europe who are often quite
fierce animals, often also with two tails or heads.
The city I live in is called "Adliswil". Since I
have no information about its founding date, let me
look at its flag: It has half an eagle above half a
millwheel (see www.adliswil.ch). The name is composed
of "Adlis", which is related to "Adler", the german
word for eagle, and of "wil" which means "Weiler",
a small village and comes from "weilen", to rest,
so Adliswil could be translated as "where the eagle
rests" - Delphi.
I had the idea for my reflection posts the same day
that I posted the first reflection. So it was not
planned, just like Zeus does not plan and rather
trusts his overview and luck. That fits quite well
with Jupiter (Zeus) who is at the moment in the
middle of Leo (sun, Apollon). But Neptune, who is
currently in opposition in Aquarius, also, but more
subtly, gets his share in:
I shake the 17 coins for about 5 minutes. This may
not make much of a difference for people unaware
of modern physics, but it does - let me explain.
There is a fundamental imprecision in any way of
measuring where the coins are and how fast they
move. If you note down precisely where the coins
are before I start shaking and then measure as
precisely as fundamentally possible how my hands
move (but without looking inside my hands), then if
I only shake the coins for a short time, you have
in principle a good chance to predict where they
will drop on my carpet.
But if I shake them for a long time (in my "gut
feeling" as a physicist, I guess 5 minutes are good
enough), then it becomes fundamentally undetermined
where the coins are and hence where they will fall.
In quantum mechanics, all possibilities that may
emerge are described by the wavefunction, which has
the symbol Psi, the Greek letter that looks exactly
like the symbol of Neptune. Thus Neptune has, so to
speak, smoothly gained complete freedom over the
outcome of my tossing of the coins.
But since I can still consciously choose what to
associate with the corresponding passage in the
discoveries document, some personal freedom (Jupiter
in Leo) has luckily been preserved.
There are two eagles, one from the east and the
other one from the west. Similarly, my system is
a combination of eastern synthetic thought and
western analytical thought. The I Ching consists
of tossing coins or splitting yarrow stalks to
get one of 64 symbols (and a transition) that aim
to accurately catch the essential properties of
a situation/question.
(Side remark: Jung has written a foreword to the
english translation of Richard Wilhelm's famous
german translation of the I Ching. There he used
a trick that is similar to what I am doing without
conscious intention here: He asked the system (the
I Ching in his case) to explain itself. He got
hexagram 50, Ting, THE CALDRON, fire above wood.
I interpret this as also related to the invention
of fire, that allowed people to cook food, to
transform nature for the first time. Link to the
foreword: http://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm).
The subsequent analytical association is more of
a western kind. Thus Neptune seems to subliminally
have brought in an Aquarian fusion of east and west.
The coins that I use are swiss 5 cent coins
(diameter 17 mm, thickness ca. 1 mm). They are
made of 92% copper (Venus), 6% Aluminum and 2&
Nickel. The head shown on the coin is the one
of "Helvetia" who on larger coins is shown with
her shield and spear, making her maybe most
closely an Athena. (Link to Swiss coins:
http://www.swissmint.ch/e/products/index.shtml)
Of course, I do not literally have the intention to
create a "new Delphi". My intentions are much more
modest: Show that everything in life is full of
symbols that correspond very well with anything that
happens. (Interestingly, Jean Richer starts his book
with the following quote from Heraclitus: "The God
whose oracle is at Delphi, does not speak, does not
hide, he shows by signs"). Secondly, I just wanted
to find a means to express my thoughs in a regular
fashion. That was maybe inspired by how Michal
Viewegh starts his postmodern novel "Bringing up
Girls in Bohemia" that I bought this spring in
Prague: He cites a female Czech writer who says
roughly "it does not matter in which order you tell
a story, you can start anywhere". That seems
certainly true for how women tell stories and also
maybe best understand them...
Thanks for anybody sticking through this lengthy
and rather complex post,
delphi29@excite.com
What I like about usenet newsgroups and the fact
that they are archived by search engines, is that
this creates a repository of human experience. In
astrology books, the experience of a particular
astrologer is usually mostly available in
transformed form: The actual experience has already
been replaced by a theory that fits the astrologers
experience. For me as a scientist, it would be much
more helpful to have a catalog of all astrologers
experiences, so that I could find the best fitting
theory to them all.
So, in the intent of contributing a small step in
creating such a database here "in the matrix", let
me share my personal experience.
me 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich, 03:12 UTC
her 1965-03-05 ??:?? Ostrava(?) CZ
Note that I am using ISO notation for dates and time,
as suggested recently by Martin Lewicky on aam. Larger
units come first, so the order is YYYY-MM-DD HH-MM.
There are several quincunxes, but only one that does
not involve collective planets (Uranus and up), namely
the quincunx between the suns, which is less than one
degree from exact. There is a yod (two quincunxes from
one planet) from my moon to her Pluto and Neptune.
Depending on when in the day she was born, there is
also a quincunx between her moon and my Pluto or my
Uranus (or both).
It started in spring 1982. It was her who made the
more active steps. I was in love, very much so, but
also somehow incapable to actively do much in her
direction. She switched schools to a different city
in 1983. We met a few more times (on parties or so
with others from the same school class). I guess she
gave up in 1984 when she closed her eyes and wanted
me to kiss her. At that moment, I still remembered that
she had kissed another guy the last time I had met
her. I, of course, wanted to kiss her. But as a fixed
Leo in that moment, I was not prepared for it, still
a bit angry at her. I guess from her point of view,
as the most mutable of all signs, this must have been
an unimaginable way of how things are. Anyway, the
moment passed (it was just at the end of the party
when everybody was leaving), and we never met again.
In 1987, when I was already at university, I met a
few folks from my old class. After that meeting,
it was in July, just before the holidays, I fell in
love with her again, even though she was not actually
there. I noticed that I could feel her very strongly
by looking into the direction in which she lived then.
In the evening, when I guess she went to bed, I could
feel her first less strongly, but then strongly again
if I laid down too, or just tilted my head into a
horizontal position. In August I called her in the
evening, after I had been for three weeks in France
on holidays (and still been able to feel her in the
direction of Switzerland). After a few sentences, I
suddenly felt like talking to a wall. I naively tried
to invite her to cinema or something, but she said no.
I said that I wanted to meet her, but she said no to
that again. She also said that she now had other
friends (in a reproachful manner), probably she had
a boyfriend at that time.
I then (very naively again) waited for us to meet by
chance. I imagined that if the feeling was so strong,
that then we would meet again, that it was sort of
predetermined. In the summer of 1990, things felt
like something was about to happen. At the university
cafeteria (ETH Zurich Honggerberg, to be precise) I
noticed one day around noon a girl who I thought must
be her. I approached her, but then quickly noticed
her blue eyes (they would have had to be brown). I
asked her if she was <first name>. She asked me if
I meant <full name>. It turned out that they had been
in school together, in the school that I mentioned
she had switched to in 1983. (Side remark regarding
Leo-Capricorn: From the same public data source that
I got the 1965 birth date, I also got the information
about what the people in that school planned to study.
The girl I had met at the cafeteria was very probably
studying architecture and there was only one girl in
the list who intended that. As far as I remember, her
birth date was in Capricorn, although I do not remember
if there was a quincunx to my sun.)
A few days later, I felt as if she had left the
country. I could still feel her, but it was clear
that she was no longer around. The Iron Curtain had
just fallen a few months earlier. As I know now, she
had roughly around that time returned to the Czech
Republic after the Velvet Revolution.
8 years later, after making a dissertation at the
IBM Research Laboratory and after also 1.5 years in
Montreal, Canada, one night at the end of January,
just shortly after Neptune had entered Aquarius,
I finally decided to call her sister who I could
find in the phone directory. She was very friendly
and gave me her sister's phone number in Prague. The
next evening I called her. A child picked up the phone.
As I know now, this was almost certainly her son.
I got the mother on the phone. I told her I love
her (actually for the first time), and that I can
feel her. She tells me that she is married.
Let me cut things a bit short. I called her sister
again about a week or so later, then made one more
call to Prague where she told me that she did not
love me (when I asked her) and also that she never
loved me, again in reply to me asking. I sent an
e-mail to her sister, where I also mentioned that
I could feel her sister directly across large distances.
She replied with a few improvisations (she is a
Sagittarius, and the older sister). There she also
mentioned astrology.
Through that I bought Liz Greene's Star Signs for
Lovers again, and this time it clicked. I realized
how astrology could work, by collective emotional
feedback to individuals, that makes people as Jung
put it "free to do gladly that which I must do".
In February 2001 I had the crucial idea that star
signs have a simple structure. Then I wrote down
my discoveries, also as part of the process of
handling the complexity that had emerged from a
more analytical take on astrology.
[I am absolutely sure that the sun was in Aquarius when
I had the idea, almost certain it was already February,
and was maybe certain of the latter as I wrote the above.
There are no documents or things I remember around that
time that could further narrow down the moment.
I wrote the discovery disclosures and the discoveries
document on a turquoise clamshell Mac iBook that ceased
to exists shortly after finishing the discoveries.pdf;
the review.pdf was written on a MacBook with MacOS X.]
Finally, the Saturn-Pluto opposition, paired with
Pluto transiting my and her Uranus and Pluto at a
square, has helped to weaken the connection. But
maybe the most important part of that is that now
the fated complex of making the discoveries is no
longer between us.
There I am now. I don't know what she does now, who
she is with. Seems that there is no chance to get
together. Is there a morale ? Should Pisces (or in
general the one at the incoming quincunx) insist
more, give up less easily ? Or should Leo try more
to do a direct approach in the real world ? Both ?
I don't know. For an outsider, I may appear like
nothing at all had happened, a bit like Soren
Kierkegaard describes the situation that Cordelia
ends up in Kierkegaard's "Diary of a Seducer" that
he published as part of his philosophical book
"Either/Or". German astrologer Thomas Ring
(http://www.astro.com/h/ring_g.htm) says that the
quincunx was first calculated by Kepler and calls
it the "Sehnsuchtsaspekt" from "longing" or also the
"Tantalusaspekt", from the guy in Greek mythology
who is standing in water but when he bends down to
drink, the water goes away or when he reaches up to
grab some fruit, the leaves retract. He also makes
the connection with some wishes, like wishing to
have a house with a garden if one lives in an
apartment in the city. Then with 60 one fulfills
the dream, but then it feels "What am I doing here?",
"Actually I don't need that any more.".
Well, from my point of view, all I can say in the end
is that if I had the choice, I would still always very
much prefer to be with a Pisces girl instead of with a
Capricorn. Maybe this is part of the problem, maybe
Pisces in the end prefer Libra over Leo ?
Thanks for the inspiration,
delphi29@excite.com
Sharyn wrote:
> I was updating the Weekly Article feature on the aat site (this one is about
> the current close approach of Mars to earth) and found Richard Giles, an
> Australian astrologer who's written some interesting articles. In
> particular, I wanted to share with you was about the movie, The Matrix, and
> it's sequals. I found it fascinating and thought provoking, particularly the
> movie release date charts, and the comparisons of the actors' charts with
> both the movie and generational influences.
> http://www.astrologycom.com/matrix1.html
Interesting article. There is so much material
available online about the matrix that it may
appear almost futile to start analyzing. So
let me present a few general observations, in
the intent to provide an open frame for future
specific astrological analysis.
German astrologer Thomas Ring was born with a
Neptune-Pluto conjunction in Gemini opposite his
sun in Sagittarius. I have already proposed that
much in the matrix is related to this axis (see
my recent post to aam (at that time still under
my real name)). But instead of getting lost in
analysis again, let me just cite how Thomas Ring
describes how he got into astrology while lying
under a linden tree in a prisoners camp in
England during WWI:
> On a quiet September day, I lay dozing on my back under one
> of those linden trees when something floated down from above
> in spiral revolutions. [...]
> My mind was not exactly set on contemplatively examining the
> wisdom of nature that provides a globule intended for
> procreation with a handle and furnishes it with a curved
> leading edge. Beholding the spiral, however, hit home like
> lightning. This was the solution, only the other way around,
> rising up against gravity! My cyclical system may have been
> valid for repetitions - if one considered things from above or
> below, the same principles repeated. But viewed from the side,
> the active nature of the I, the spontaneous change of the
> respective goal and interchange of other-nesses started to show
> to advantage.
(Very reluctantly I had to abbreviate here; the full
story is almost certainly revealing for any astrologer:
http://www.thomas-ring-stiftung.de/english/index.htm).
In the matrix, there is "bullet time", when rotating
bullets are slowed down by people capable of bending
the laws of the matrix. Here is my frame:
1 - The Matrix - Fire - see, become aware
2 - Matrix Reloaded - Air - possibilities, choice
3 - Matrix Revolutions - Water - fate, decision
(I associate 1-2-3-4 with Fire-Air-Water-Earth for
many symbolic reasons; see my discoveries document
or another recent post to aam; or wait until I get
to talk about it here another time).
In terms of bullet time, 1 corresponds to becoming
conscious of the bullet, of its revolving laws,
2 corresponds to looking at the bullet from all
possible angles, in order to find the best way to
escape repetition ad infinitum, 3 corresponds to
the heavy task of choosing the new point of view.
For 1, maybe one of the articles in the philosophy
section of www.thematrix.com is most revealing,
namely the one that relates the matrix to Gnosticism
and Buddhism:
http://www.thematrix.com/rl_cmp/new_phil_wakeup.html
For 2, I would prefer not to indicate any links, so
as not to influence anybody's choice of looking at
things. Let me just say that Neo ends his crucial
conversation with the architect of the matrix with
the words "The problem is choice".
For 3: After the credits of "Matrix Reloaded", if
you are willing to wait for at least 5 minutes after
the movie actually ends, there is a trailer for part
three, "Matrix Revolutions". One of the people who
I was watching the movie with, a woman, a bit later
summarized it as "the same in the rain" -- rain is
digitized water ;).
The next paragraph might turn out to be a major spoiler
for the fans, so skip it if you wish:
There is an interesting twist why maybe the machines
might need humans to decide, namely because machines
are programmed such that they are not allowed to kill
people. In that sense, the machines might only need Neo
to make one final human decision. (By Ken Mondschein:
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm)
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
Reflections - 39773
Hi there.
This is reflection 3 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, see these posts
from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
The coins said THTT'HHTH'HTHT'HHHT'H = 39773, which
points to section 3.8 Astrological Inheritance:
> Mother and child form essentially a unit, because
> the unborn child lives inside a world which is
> essentially the mother. The father is emo*t*ionally
> connected to both of them. He and the mother met
> at a given date which influences their common fate.
In hypothesis H4 (page 1), I suggest that emotional
connections between men and women are typically
stronger than between men and men or women and women.
If that is so, and also applies to unborn girls and
boys, the father would typically already before birth
be connected more strongly to a daughter than to a son.
If that was the case, one might also expect to see a
stronger correlation between the birth charts of the
father and a daughter than between father and a son.
But, then again, almost all of the complexity of the
world goes into moments of birth, so the above idea
might overlook some important details (the moon is
in Libra now, so this is maybe not unlikely).
Instinctively, I connected the passage this time with
the "butterfly dream" of Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu
who lived around the same time as Aristotle:
> Once Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly,
> a fluttering butterfly who felt at ease and happy
> and knew nothing of Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he woke
> up: Then he was again really and truly Chuang Tzu.
> Now I do not know whether Chuang Tzu dreamt that
> he was a butterfly or whether the butterfly dreamt
> that it was Chuang Tzu, even though there is
> certainly a difference between Chuang Tzu and the
> butterfly. This is how the change of things is.
Chuang Tzu also describes how difficult it is for two
people who disagree about a specific issue to find out
who is right: If they ask someone else, that third
person might agree with one of them or have a third
opinion, none of which is really conclusive.
This brings me to how consensus can come about, in
general and (hence) also when it comes to chosing
a birth date for a child. All signs have different
views, but maybe the most basic difference is
between dry and wet elements:
The wet elements Air and Water are softer, more
flexible, more adaptive, more fluid. To them, the
world is rather the result of a mutual agreement
than a reality that exists independently of them.
Gemini represents a child who plays with all the
different sides of the world, then, as Libra, learns
to balance them and then unifies them into a coherent
view of the world as an old man, Aquarius. Cancer
searches for the right thing to do in a situation,
Scorpio feels other people deep to find a consensus
that is optimal for a community of a certain size,
and finally the oldest woman of the zodiac, Pisces,
recognizes that at a global scale, different choices
often only yield different results, but not
necessarily better or worse ones.
The dry elements Fire and Earth are harder, more
rigid and defined. They generally agree that what
can be seen and touched is the same for practically
everybody. The birth date and time does not include
everything, two people born at the same day and
time can, for example, have different eye colors
that are inherited in a different way (genetically
in chromosomes in the cells of the body).
There are people who actually mix senses. When they
see something, they also smell and hear something
that is related to what they see. I remember how a
woman, who mixes senses, described on TV how she first
realized how different her perception of the world is:
She went into a perfume store and asked for a blue,
round perfume. Not astonishingly, they fetched her a
perfume in a blue, round bottle; she tried some and
then exclaimed: "But it smells white!"
Since dry and wet are again two opposites, it seems
again impossible to tell them apart, to say that
either dry or wet signs are right, except to maybe
say that it is at least hard to think or see anything
that is outside the Greek system of thought spanned
by all 4 elements and their refinements...
According to my hypotheses (H14b, H15-18, H28b), the
four young signs (Aries to Cancer) consist mainly of
the two dry elements Fire or Earth, adult signs balance
dry and wet elements, whereas old signs (Sagittarius
to Pisces) are mainly wet, Air and Water. This hints
at a general development during life where one learns
more flexibility etc.
Finally, here are a couple of facts about Jean Richer
and his book "Sacred Geography of the Ancient Greeks"
that I mentioned last time: According to amazon.fr,
the first (french) edition of the book was published
in 1967. Jean Richer was born 1915-02-04 16:00 Paris,
but the birth time is uncertain (source unknown):
http://www.lecielinterieur.com/esp_astro/bases_donnees/bdd/bdd_R.htm
Hope this was not too complex this time (Libra moon,
Cancer sun) and thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Pete P wrote:
> Maybe the question was raised because, if a Jupiter-sized planet is all
> our hardware can detect, then there may be terrestrial sized planets
> further in and one of them *might* support a civilisation similar to
> ours that has developed a philosophy similar to our astrology. In fact,
> IMO, the odds are stacked in its favour...
> And if such a civilisation exists and *has* developed such an "ology"
> ( and who's to say it doesn't, and hasn't, in one planetary system or
> another? ), then it's an interesting concept.
> We have our mathematics; our physics; our religious systems and our
> astrology. Citizens of other solar systems aren't likely to share them.
> --
> Pete
I have always been fascinated by the thought
how different a civilization in a different
solar system might be. Recently I had read
an article (SciAm?) where it was argued that
there are probably not many solar systems
similar to ours, with a Jupiter like planet
at about the same distance. Now there seems
to be a similar system right "around the block"
(94 light years compared to about 4 light years
for the nearest star), and that announced
during a Jupiter-Neptune opposition...
In the meantime, I have also fantasized about
making charts from other planets in this solar
system, say a chart for the place and time the
first probe landed on Mars. Such a chart would
have two moons (Phobos and Daimos), no Mars,
but Earth. In a chart from Jupiter, the inner
planets would maybe not say much, because they
would be quite close to the sun, at least the
many moons around Jupiter could say more. Venus
rotates the other way round than all other
planets except Pluto, so houses would change
the other way during a day, which is about 243
earth days on Venus, more than a Venus year
(225 days). Uranus's rotational axis lies
almost in the ecliptic, so defining a spring
equinox (and hence a start of the year) might
be difficult to do. Stellar parans appear much
more robust to such differences.
Is there maybe software that allows to look at
the sky from planets in the solar system ? That
might be enough for some basic stellar parans,
like raising/setting with sun or with Earth ;)
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
Astrology Cycles wrote:
> Sorry this is very vague but the short answer is 'yes'.
>
> Most astronomy software will do it. And some of the different astrology
> programs will - solar fire I think does it?
>
> Sorry I can't be more specific, but if you look for astrology software on
> the web they'll list this sort of capability.
Thanks for the answer. I google a lot anyway, so
that was not where I was heading with my question,
at least not only: I mainly wanted to show up some
new possibilities of looking at old things from
a few new angles, sort of as inspiration, for
anybody to follow up or not, at their discretion.
Astrologicially, there appear to be quite a few
indications for doing this at the moment:
Uranus and Mars are in Pisces, the sign that has
the task to imagine all the things that will be
realized by Aries and then the other signs in
the next "year" (in about 2010 for Uranus). Saturn
has just very recently left Gemini, so there is
some of the quickness and looking at things from
all kinds of angles to catch up. The recent
Saturn-Pluto oppositions had to destroy some
things for good. New things are required to fill
the gap, maybe not exactly to replace what had
to go (which in some cases is impossible), but to
ensure that nothing had to go in vain. Finally,
my pseudonym "Delphi Twentine" and also my
discoveries document (and this newsgroup too)
have Pluto in Sagittarius, so they are part of a
new generation that shoots its arrows into many
directions, for anybody to follow or catch or,
else, to let them sink back into unconsciousness.
Concretely, I am not an expert on astrology or
astronomy software, I have just looked around a
little bit. Regarding charts, is there software
that really allows to look at things from the
point of view of, say, Mars ? Will the spring
point be defined based on spring on Mars or
still on spring on Earth ? Will the two moons
of Mars be available ? Is it possible to choose
a place on Mars (by coordinates) ? Again, I am
not specifically asking for answers for me, but
if somebody by chance (or hard work) has a good
recommendation, I would like to hear it too.
For stellar parans from, say, Mars, an astronomy
program that allows to put the observer on a
defined spot on the surface and then shows stars
and planets would almost be sufficient to calculate
a few basic parans. From Earth, I am even doing
this with a piece of shareware for Palm OS
(Planetarium: http://www.aho.ch/pilotplanets).
Stellar parans could even be used from different
solar systems; constellations would be different,
but as long as the solar systems are not too far
away, the same stars would be visible. Maybe one
could even interpret the relation of the stars
symbolically: There will probably be solar systems
from which there is a conjunction between two
stars (say Spica and Wega, for example). Maybe
it would be possible to find correlations between
which kinds of planets a solar system has and
between the "aspects" between the fixed stars, as
they are seen from that solar system. Pushing it
again a bit further, if some systems are in the
future found to carry life, maybe one could find
some correlations in the fixed stars that are an
indication of life ? Of course this is quite
speculative at the moment, but basically it is
just what astrology usually does, applied to a
somewhat different scale. And considering how far
the stars are away, a few more hints as to where
to fly to could even be of great practical value.
Maybe it would already be interesting to look at
how the stars look like from that star HD70642
that was found to have a Jupiter like planet.
Stellar catalogs typically contain the distance
and direction of the stars (and their brighness):
transforming from polar to rectangular coordinates,
changing the origin from sun to HD70642 and then
converting to polar coordinates and plotting would
already yield the sky as seen from HD70642. Maybe
I will do this sometime, maybe someone else will,
maybe doing so will yield nothing interesting,
maybe beautiful new discoveries could be made, or
maybe not. Sometimes (especially with Uranus and
Mars in Pisces) I think is more beautiful to leave
things as possibilities, in order not to run the
danger to destroy them.
delphi29@excite.com
> RM: Yes there is (or there was about 2 years ago). One of the
> astrologers on aamod made such a program.
> Perhaps a search of old aamod posts will bring it up; although I'm not
> sure what keywords would be best to use.
> There is also the NASA site where you can look at any body from any
> other body, for any time.
> I forget the URL, but it's on my website "All astrology on the net".
>
> Ray
Thanks Ray. Here are the links:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~astrocom/index2.html
http://space.jpl.nasa.gov
delphi29@excite.com
Thanks for your post. Let me try to connect first
to a few things that I know about divisions of
circles (especially the year), before replying a
bit more concretely to what you wrote.
In section 3.9 of a document that I wrote under
my real name, Alain Stalder, I relate two things
to the three thirds of the year/zodiac: life
(child to adult to old person; as you do in your
post) and, consequently, connections to an
increasing number of people. Link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
To the ancient Greeks, a division of any cycle by
pi=3.141592654... would have appeared most harmonic,
because that is the number that relates the
circumference of a circle (cycle) to its diameter.
I think the division of the year into two nested
cycles (4 seasons with 3 months each, or three
"sections" with 4 elements each), is a compromise,
because it contains both numbers around pi, the
one below it (3) and the one above it (4).
It appears that older divisions of the solar and
lunar cycle, that were closer to the natural cycles,
were more of a kind "3+something smaller". In ancient
Egypt, according to the web site by Vern Beaumont,
http://home.clara.net/beaumont/egypt/calendar.htm,
there were 3 seasons (of 4 lunar months each):
inundation, winter and summer. Since 12 lunar months
only give about 354 days, the remaining about 11
days were apparently compensated every 2 or 3 years
by a "leap month". Older divisions of the lunar
cycle also essentially had 3 phases, with the one
around full moon symbolizing pregnancy, but in
addition had sort of a short "seeding phase" when
the moon was not visible at all.
That reminds me of what Robert Graves wrote in
section 62.1 of "The Greek Myths" (section about
Zeus chasing and getting Nemesis/Leda through
various transformations, including to a swan):
> Nemesis was the Moon-goddess as Nymph (see 32.2) and,
> in the earliest form of the love-chase myth, she
> pursued the sacred king through his seasonal changes
> of hare, fish, bee, and mouse - or hare, fish, bird
> and grain of wheat - and finally devoured him.
Interestingly, in both variants, there is one of the
four things that is smaller, (bee / grain of wheat),
with the grain of wheat being literally a seed...
Some concrete remarks:
In broad terms, I agree with your description; in
some details, I am not so sure.
I associate "refining" with mutable signs, the last
of the circle within each season. Hence I am a bit
sceptical whether "refiners" is the best fitting
description for the four middle signs, although I
can see some ring to it. I note also that in the
first four signs, there are two cardinal signs, in
the second four, there are two fixed signs, and in
the last four, there are two mutable signs - which
hints maybe also at some level of correspondence
between the three "sections" of the year with the
three characters (cardinal/fixed/mutable) in each
of the four seasons.
If I associate consciousness with the development
from child to adult to old person, I notice that
initially children have no consciousness (in my
personal recollection, my first conscious memories
date to about the age of 3 to 4). But maybe I am
mixing things up a bit - no memory of consciousness
does probably not imply no consciousness, although
a certain level of remembering and reflection is
probably necessary for consciousness.
You may be interested in Howard Sasportas' book
about astrological houses (The Twelve Houses,
Harper Collins, 1985), where he describes houses
also quite in detail as developments during a life.
Thanks again,
delphi29@excite.com
--
Ilya Shambat wrote:
> Each turn of the spiral consists of three stages. Initiating, refining
> and systematization.The astrological model describes this in the
> qualities allotted to the first four signs, the second four signs and
> the last four signs, respectively. Each of the four corresponds in turn
> to a dimension of human existence; a dimension also known as an element.
> These patterns are hardly limited to astrology and can be observed,
> using any number of models, in all things human.
>
> The distinction among the three stages is contained most fundamentally
> in basic consciousness. The initiators have consciousness that is
> integral and predetermined; a single self-centered consciousness, a
> spark of insight that is a direct outgrowth of the previous stage. The
> refiners have a consciousness that is self-directed; a consciousness
> that is custom-made for themselves and abrades against the context that
> it inhabits. The systematizers have consciousness that is one with that
> of the context and has no independent self. These three forms of
> consciousness work to instill, refine and then consummate to completion
> each cycle. The successful turn of the spiral propagates, refines
> through experience and then creates a new and a better blueprint. The
> unsuccesful turn of the spiral fails at any point in the process to
> accomplish this work.
[...]
> http://www.geocities.com/ilya_shambat/astrology.htm
Transformation
2003-07-12 Pluto-Uranus square
2 days later, Robert Graves, Introduction of The Greeek Myths
all in one: sacrifice of old king and instoration of new
(twin) king at one or both of the solistices, Harvey's
seeding points, seed, animals for three seasons, three
moon phases, transition from female age of Taurus to male
age of Aries, role of Hera/Juno (month June) among Greek
gods, Delphi and the omphalos (web, net, fabric of fate),
during age of Taurus: Capricorn (old king) before winter
solistice, Leo (young king) after summer solistice
Delphi, female sex, gorge, replacement of female oracle
by more male one, anima
discoveries, hard to estimate, but possibly important
contribution to other transition from a female to a
male age (Pisces to Aquarius), hence bound to similar
symbols, female realm gives away some things that they
have grown tired of maintaining (cf. Rhea and Zeus in
Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate"), but will again
keep the most important (deep/heavy/female/water+earth)
secrets under their protection
delphi29@excite.com
Reflections - 55870
Hi there.
This is reflection 4 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
This time I tossed the coins 2003-07-15 21:33 (19:33 UTC)
and got THHT'HHTH'TTTH'HHHH'T = 55870, which points
to 3.9.7 Libra, passage about life:
> Adults have to learn to understand their partner and
> other people. But, especially in a love couple, complete
> transparency is often not desired because some beautiful
> illusions might then be destroyed too. Adults also strive
> for continuity, for not letting every new and exciting
> thing divert them from their plans, es*p*ecially since
> adults have to solve the most complex tasks.
Let me try this time to derive as much as possible
from "first principles", from my basic hypotheses
about the signs of the zodiac as different stages
during the transition between different elements.
Libra is the middle Air sign. According to H14b and
H17a, it is composed of almost equal amounts of Fire
and Water. It represents a cloud (air) in the middle
of the storm when there is both lightning (fire) and
rain (water), see H17b.
Let me first focus on the last sentence in the passage
that I cited above:
"Adults": According to H14b, the four signs in the
middle of the zodiac circle balance two elements.
In analogy to the circle of life, these signs also
represent adults, hence H28b.
"strive for continuity": The timely order of signs in
the zodiac is defined. Hence, even though Libra has
to balance two elements, there is also a development
during Libra's life towards Aquarius, towards more
water. In the image of the cloud (H17b), rain falls
down continously, hence "continuity" (H17f).
"for not letting every new and exciting thing divert
them": Again in the image of the cloud, at young age
Libra is more lightning, quicker, more random, less
stable, gets diverted too quickly by what can be seen
(seeing requires light, fire).
"from their plans": The middle Air sign, since it
balances the extremes of the sign before it and of
the sign after it, represents the archetype of the
element Air. Air is about abstract, logical thinking
(because air is invisible, compared to fire, which
is about visual imagination because fire produces
light that is necessary for seeing). A plan needs
logic, needs a combination of statements of the form
"If I do X, then Y will happen". (It needs both
reflection and a clear goal).
"es*p*ecially since adults have to solve the most
complex tasks": Young people lack experience; old
people have already lost some of their abilities.
It is up to adults to balance the two extremes,
to take both sides into account and find a solution
that does more good than harm. A thunderstorm at
its fullest is more complex than one that has just
started with some lightning or is about to end by
continously falling rain.
A few quick remarks about the first two sentences:
They can be analyzed and connected back to the same
simple hypotheses that I presented above. For example,
"transparency": Aquarius is water, which is transparent,
more transparent than a flame that changes its
appearance quickly (Fire, Gemini), hence H17e.
This time, I tried to keep things as simple as
possible, which maybe made things also a bit dry,
although the moon is in Aquarius now.
Aquarius is also about teaching as opposed to
learning, so how about a "challenge": Think about
a statement that you relate with conviction with
Libra and then present it here, and I will try
to "derive" it as well as possible from hypotheses
and statements in my discoveries document - maybe
with help from others here ? Or, if you prefer,
you might also want to "derive" things yourself,
or maybe try this entirely in private, or maybe
just ignore these ideas...
Anyway, thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Bobby Bryant wrote:
> It's not apparent from either of those links that "Early-Life Factors"
> means anything akin to "season-of-birth-effects", though perhaps you have
> the advantage of actually having read the book.
>
> But it's hardly surprising. Lots of diseases are seasonal, and early
> exposure to disease could have a devastating effect on lifespan.
>
> --
> Bobby Bryant
> Austin, Texas
Hi there.
I am a physicist -- about a couple of years ago, I
saw a report on CNN where it was reported that people
born in March are more likely to become schizophrenic
later in life than people born at other times of the
year. I did not follow up, so I do not know whether
that claim was sufficently backed by scientific
evidence or not. But let's assume it was for the
moment.
An astrologer would probably say that this was because
most of the month of March is in the star sign of
Pisces, which is associated also with schizophrenia.
More down to earth, one would probably rather suspect
that at the end of winter the mother is likely a bit
depressed, which might influence the birth experience
of the child sufficiently to lead to problems later
in life.
Now, how could these two hypotheses be distinguished
experimentally ? Well, I suggest to make a study with
two groups of people, one group of people born in
March on the northern hemisphere (and still living
there) and the other group also born in March, but
on the southern hemisphere (where Pisces is still in
March, but the end of winter is in September). Plus
two control groups from each hemisphere.
delphi29@excite.com
--
PS: Since this my first post to most groups here, here
is some information about me: I have proposed a number
of specific hypotheses for testing astrology and also
posted a number of times to different groups, ranging
from astrology to philosophy and physics (mostly to
moderated newsgroups, mostly alt.astrology.moderated,
alt.astrology.tropical and sci.physics.research). Just
search at groups.google.com for "exactphilosophy"...
Kalle Sichler <icho@online.de> schrieb am 23.6.03:
> Am 23.6. um 9:55 schrieb Richard Vetter:
>
> Hi Richard...
>
> An dieser Stelle will ich mich auch mal einklinken. Einerseits kann ich
> HPMs Ausführungen zustimmen und werde im Folgendem noch manches
> hinzufügen, andererseits ist mir ein Aspekt zu schroff auf die Seite
> geschoben worden.
>
> > "Hans Peter Michael Limmert" schrieb:
[Saturn und Satyrn...]
> >> Haben gar nichts miteinander zu tun. Satyrn sind griechisch und die
> >> Mehrzahl von Satyr, während Saturn (griech. Chronos) lateinisch ist.
>
> Das ist zwar rein faktisch richtig, übergeht jedoch, daß Römer, wie auch
> die Griechen indoeuropäischen Ursprungs sind. Deshalb ist dein Verdacht,
> Richard, beides hätte etwas miteinander zu tun, sehr wohl berechtigt.
> (Wenn auch nicht bezogen auf das 1. Jahrzausend vor der Zeitwende)
> Sowohl Saturn, als auch Satyrn, als auch Sadhu (ind."Heiliger"), aber
> auch Hados (=Hades!) und Satan gehören zum gleichen Wortstamm.
>
> Die romische Religion setzte sich aus dem Pantheon von 4 verschiedenen
> Völkern zusammen: Italer, Umbrier, Griechen (Sizilien+Neapel) und
> Etruskern (nicht-indoeuropäisch).
>
> Wie HPM schon beschrieb, war Saturn ein italischer bzw. umbrischer
> Erdgott und sein Tierzeichen war das (Arbeits-)Pferd. Erst später, kurz
> vor der Zeitwende, wurde der Bock daraus. (Das Renn-/Kriegspferd gehörte
> zu Mars)
> Er war zwar der Gott der Zeit, aber an diesem Punkt muß man höllisch
> aufpassen, um nicht zu einer Fehlinterpretation zu kommen.
> Zeit, wie wir sie kennen, also linear, ist eine "moderne"
> monotheistische Erfindung. Die Völker der Antike (außer den Hebräern)
> kannten nur die zyklische Zeit. Insofern war Saturn/C(ha)ronos* kein
> Gott der unendlich weiterströmenden Zeit, sondern ein Gott der
> wi(e)derkehrenden Zeit, der Zyklen und Jahreszeiten.
> Damit war im alles unterstellt, was zyklisch wiederkehrte, also im
> Prinzip die gesamte Natur.
> Siehe dazu auch Pluton/Hades, der als Erdgott dafür sorgte, daß im
> Herbst Altes verschwand und im Frühjahr wiedergeboren wurde.
>
> Bei den Satyrn wird es nun ein bisschen komplizierter, weil hier
> mehrere, von den Griechen assimilierte Völker zum Bild beitrugen.
> So waren sie ursprünglich bei den einen Waldgeister, bei anderen
> Erdgeister, auch Fruchtbarkeits-Götter und bei den Steppenvölkern des
> Nordostens war die wichtigste Fruchbarkeit die der Pferde.
> Wie wurden aber nun pferdebehufte Trolle daraus (bzw. in parallelen
> Mythen die Kentauren)?
> Nun, im Mittelmeerraum war bis zum 2. vorchristlichen Jahrtausend das
> Pferd als Reittier völlig unbekannt. Sogar beim Trojanischen Krieg ritt
> man nicht, sondern man fuhr. Sich auf ein Pferd zu setzen war genauso
> ein Unding, wie auf eine Kuh oder einen Hund. So unterstellte man allen
> Reitervölkern (die man auch nur aus Erzählungen kannte), daß sie ihre
> "Seele" an das Tier abgegeben hätten, bzw. die Seelen von Tier und
> Mensch eins geworden seien. Solche Verknüpfungen, auch morphologischer
> Art (Satyrn, Kentauren) kann man bis in die Altsteinzeit (Felsbilder)
> nachverfolgen.
> Ein Mensch, der sich auf ein Pferd setzte, war ein Mannpferd und hatte
> deshalb auch die Triebkraft eines solchen Hengstes. Die Wildheit einiger
> Reitervölker (Mordlust und Saufgelage) bestätigte dieses Bild nur noch.
>
> Mit Erdgöttern hatten diese nun nichts mehr gemein. Aus den Wäldern
> hervorbrechend zerstörten sie die Felder, raubten die Frauen und
> plünderten die Vorräte (=> Fress- und Sauforgien).
>
> Bei den Satyrn kann man also sagen, daß sich hier Religion (Saturn+
> Waldgeister+Fruchtbarkeit), Mythen und Beschreibung von Reisenden zu
> einer Synthese zusammen gefunden haben.
> Astrologisch gehören sie in das 11. Prinzip, daß ja bis vor kurzem
> ebenfalls dem Saturn zugeordnet war. => das exzessive Doppelgesicht des
> Saturn (Doppelmoral, Nadelstreifenanzug + Orgien).
> Sogar in der Entwicklung eines Menschen lässt sich dieses Doppelprinzip
> beobachten: In der Jugend gesittet und streng löst sich im Alter meist
> zu Toleranz auf, während sich junge Revoluzzer und Himmelstürmer dann
> als wahre Diktatoren erweisen.
>
> >> Die Saturnalien waren wiederum die Feiern zur Wintersonnenwende.
>
> Hier noch eine Ergänzung zu HPMs Beschreibung:
> Saturn galt in der Antike als Herrscher des "Goldenen Zeitalters", einer
> vorgeschichtlichen Zeit in der es Wohlstand, Überfluß und Freiheit gab.
> Ich war lange Zeit auch über die "scheinbare Vertauschung" von
> Saturn<->Jupiter in der Astrologie erstaunt und nahm es halt als
> Abweichung von den Mythen hin.
> Richtig ist jedoch, daß die Freiheit des Saturn, die Freiheit einer
> "Gartenzwergkultur" ist.
> Betrachte hierbei eine Dorfgemeinschaft in der alle ohne Zank und Hader
> leben. Alle helfen einander und feiern auch die selben Riten. Einmal im
> Jahr sitzen dann alle am Dorfplatz zusammen (Asterix und Obelix) und
> feiern ausgelassen bis tief in die Nacht. Und sogar der
> Großgrundbesitzer, Landvogt, Häuptling sitzt dabei, muß sich einige ihn
> derupfende Gschdanzl anhören und letztlich schmeißt er einige
> "Saal"runden. 9 Monate später weiß keiner, wess Vater die Neugeborenen
> sind.
> Dieses Ausbrechen aus der Regel ist letztlich eine Bestätigung des
> bindenden Prinzips. Eine Belohnung für die monatelange schwere Arbeit.
>
> Jupiter als expandierendes Prinzip ist jedoch bar einer Unterordnung. Er
> ist eher ausufernd, gierig, raffend (auch auf Kosten anderer) und eher
> vergleichbar mit unserer städtischen Kultur.
> Saturn ist Bauer (Tausch), Jupiter ist Städter (Geld).
>
> Als letzten Punkt noch der Hinweis, daß die Saturnalien, wie auch die
> Festlegung des 10. Prinzips in den Dezember, nicht römischen Ursprungs
> sein kann.
> Jede Kultur legt ihre Ernte-Feiern auf einen Zeitpunkt knapp hinter den
> örtlichen Ernteterminen; bei uns der September und der "goldene
> Oktober".
> Wenn man jetzt sagt: "Naja die Römer leben ja mediteran und können
> deshalb bis in den Dezember hinein ernten.", so übersieht man, daß im 1.
> vorchristlichen Jahrtausend in Italien ein ähnliches Klima geherrscht
> hat, wie bei uns z.Z. in Mitteleuropa; es war eine Kaltzeit. Man muß
> also bis ins 2-3.Jtd v.d.Zw. zurückgehen, um wieder vergleichbar
> Temperaturen zu bekommen, die einen Ernteschluß im Dezember zulassen.
> Rom, also die Römer, gab es damals noch nicht. Das waren damals paaar
> halbwilde Stämme, die sich mit den urbanen Etruskern wilde Gefechte
> lieferten.
> Um die Saturnalien (bzw. die röm./helen. Religion überhaupt) zu
> begreifen, müssen wir also mindestens bis zur Zeit der minoischen Kultur
> und ihrer Zerschlagung durch die Seevölker zurückgehen. Und dies ist
> auch die zeit, in der nach den Mythen das "goldene" Saturn-Zeitalter
> durch das "heroische" Jupiter-Zeitalter abgelöst wurde.
>
> ... Kalle
>
> (*)
> Ich habe weit oben Kronos absichtlich als C(ha)ronos geschrieben, um auf
> den Wortstamm hinzuweisen.
> K^ronos, Choronos, Cheiron, Horon, Saros, Zerus usw.
> (K<->S: Kentum<->Satem Sprachen)
>
> Da also Saturn und Kronos zu unterschiedlichen Wortstämmen gehören.
> dürfte auch klar sein, daß beide Gottheiten durch unterschiedliche
> Völker geschaffen wurden, verschiedenes bedeuteten, später aber, wegen
> ihrer Wesensverwandschaft, als Synonyme für eine Gottheit betrachtet
> wurden.
> --
> "Die erste Voraussetzung für Unsterblichkeit ist der Tod"
> (Stanislav LEM)
Hallo und vielen Dank fuer den ausfuehrlichen Post; es hat
vieles darin, dass ich nicht oder nicht so genau wusste.
Ich hatte immer gewisse Probleme, die Zeichen Schuetze und
Steinbock klar auseinanderzuhalten, vielleicht weil beide
etwas mit dem Winteranfang zu tun haben. Hier sind ein paar
Gedanken:
Ein Bekannter meiner Eltern war ein direkter Nachkomme des
Basler Malers Arnold Boecklin. Der Vorname des Bekannten war
Peter, das gibt also Stein-Bock. Viele Bilder des Malers
enthalten Zentauren, Satyrn, Pan, Faune.
Basel ist an der Grenze zu Deutschland; die deutschen Reiche
hatten alle einen starken Bezug zu Saturn (Steinbock /
Wassermann). Das erinnert mich an die Grenze zwischen Herbst
und Winter, zwischen Schuetze und Steinbock. Nach meinem
Eindruck haben Basler in der Kunst gerne "viele verschiedene
Farbkleckse oder sonst Dinge, ohne viel Beziehung zueinander",
was nach meinem Empfinden recht gut zu Schuetze passen wuerde.
Ueber das mit einem Erntedankfest im Dezember: Vor etwa 5000
Jahren, im Stierzeitalter, waere die Grenze zwischen den
Konstellationen Schuetze und Steinbock, ganz grob geschaetzt
ueber einen Monat vor dem 21.12. gewesen, was vielleicht mehr
Sinn macht.
In diesem Moment macht es vielleicht Sinn, etwas ueber mich
selbst zu erzaehlen: Ich bin Physiker, daher ist mein
historisches Wissen teilweise beschraenkt, aber ich bin auch
lernfaehig. Vor etwas mehr als einem Jahr habe ich auf dem
Internet unter meinem richtigen Namen, Alain Stalder, ein
Dokument mit Hypothesen und Endeckungen u.A. zur Astrologie
veroeffentlicht. Ein Kernpunkt darin ist ein einfaches
Modell, das die Sternzeichen als Uebergaenge von Umwandlungen
der 4 Elemente in der Art wie Aristoteles sie sah, beschreibt.
Kurz die Luftzeichen als Beispiel:
Die Umwandlung Zwillinge-Waage-Wassermann ist der Uebergang
von Feuer (durch feucht machen) zu Luft und dann (durch kalt
machen) zu Wasser. Das archetypische Bild ist eine Wolke
(d.h. Luft), aus der sowohl Blitze (Feuer) wie auch Regen
(Wasser) kommen. Die Zwillinge bestehen in diesem Modell
v.a. aus Feuer, das (Flamme, Blitze) sich schnell bewegt
und unvorhersehbar ist. Der Wassermann besteht entsprechend
v.a. aus Wasser, das transparent und ist und als Regen
konstant herunterfaellt und auf alle gleich. Die Waage ist
in der Mitte, muss Feuer und Wasser ausgleichen. Etwas
abstrakter kann man einen konstanten Lernprozess im Leben
erkennen: Ein Kind schaut sich die Dinge schnell von vielen
Richtungen an. Eine Muenze, z.B. sind zuerst nur zwei Bilder,
erst im Kopf durch Lernen, entsteht ein einziges Ding, die
Muenze. Waehrend dem weiteren Leben, erkennt man mehr und
mehr Dinge als Variationen von Dingen, die man bereits kennt.
Die groesste Einheit erreicht man im Alter, hat dann aber
auch die Tendenz, gewisse Dinge, die nicht in das Weltbild
passen, zurechtzubiegen oder zu ignorieren.
Ich habe bisher alles ausschliesslich auf englisch
beschrieben, auf meiner Webseite: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
oder in meinen Newsgroup posts:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
(Uebrigens schreibe ich in meinem Hauptdokument im Anhang B
auch etwas ueber Lem's Solaris, das ich als sehr detaillierte,
analytische Beschreibung der Fische sehe, dessen was per
Definition nicht analysiert werden kann (Lem hat die Sonne in
der Jungfrau)).
Noch ein paar weitere Gedanken: Der Teufel (Satan) ist in
meiner Sicht etwa eine Mischung aus Steinbock und Skorpion.
Die Symbole passen zusammen: Fest im November, Kastration
des Saturn mit einer Sichel, resp. Skorpion, der entscheiden
muss, und dabei auch, falls wirklich notwendig, entscheidet,
was abgeschnitten werden muss (im Sinn der 3 Schicksen, bei
denen die Mittlere, das mittlere Wasserzeichen, den
Schicksalsfaden abmisst, und die Letzte ihn dann abschneidet).
Soweit ich weiss, waren in vielen Kulturen die Sternzeichen
zuerst sehr gross, es gab zuerst nur 2 oder 3 (ev. als
Symbole der Jahreszeiten), erst spaeter zerfielen sie in
Kleinere, wie z.B. der Skorpion in Skorpion und Waage.
Weiss jemand hier etwas Genaueres, welche Zeichen wann
verbunden waren ? (oder eine gute Quelle dazu ?)
Nochmals Danke,
delphi29@excite.com
Kalle Sichler <icho@online.de> schrieb in
<rgzpxfo66eoe.dlg@betei.net>:
> [Fullquote fachgerecht nach dev null entsorgt]
Passiert mit Quotes die zu /dev/null geschickt werden,
das Gleiche wie laut Douglas Adams mit Kugelschreibern ?
> Hi Alain...
Alain Stalder ist per E-mail erreichbar unter der
Adresse astalder@exactphilosophy.net; fuer Feedback
bezueglich den Hypothesen und Entdeckungen auf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Posts mache ich nur (noch) unter meinem Pseudonym
delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine); was eher eine
Rolle ist als ich selbst, hat auch astrologisch ein
anderes Entstehungsdatum (irgendwann 2001, ich weiss
selber nicht genau wann).
Als Alain Stalder hatte ich etwa 150 Posts geschrieben,
und war immer sehr bedacht darauf, alles was sich
faktisch belegen oder widerlegen liesse, sehr genau
anzuschauen, bevor ich es veroeffentlichte (das gilt
sogar noch mehr fuer meine Hypthesen und Entdeckungen
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/review.pdf)
Unter meinem Pseudonym veroeffentliche ich eher die
Dinge, die ich gesehen hatte als ich die obigen
Dokumente schrieb, die ich benoetigte um die dortigen
Fakten abzusichern. D.h. was ich als delphi29@excite.com
veroeffentliche ist spekulativer, erlaubt es mir aber
auch viel mehr als Inspiration und Ideen fuer Andere
herauszubringen, als mir das unter meinem richtigen
Namen moeglich waere (Ich habe den Mond+MC im Widder).
delphi29@excite.com hat sicher den Pluto im Schuetzen,
was vieles leichter macht (experimentell).
> Am 16.7. um 20:32 schrieb Delphi Twentine:
> > ...
> > Hier sind ein paar Gedanken:
> > Ein Bekannter meiner Eltern war ein direkter Nachkomme des
> > Basler Malers Arnold Boecklin. Der Vorname des Bekannten war
> > Peter, das gibt also Stein-Bock. Viele Bilder des Malers
> > enthalten Zentauren, Satyrn, Pan, Faune.
>
> Hast du zufälligerweise die Daten von Boecklin? In meinem Archiv kann
> ich zu ihm nicht finden.
Nein, habe ich nicht.
> > Basel ist an der Grenze zu Deutschland; die deutschen Reiche
> > hatten alle einen starken Bezug zu Saturn (Steinbock /
> > Wassermann).
>
> ;-) Im Prinzip möchte ich dir, schon aufgrund meiner Vorurteile,
> zustimmen, aber zu den deutschen Reichen gehörten auch die Hanse und die
> Nederlande. Ob man da verallgemeinernd ein Tierkreiszeichen preferieren
> kann?
Ich bezog mich auf folgende Daten:
800-12-25 Karl der Grosse vom Papst in Rom zum Kaiser gekroent
962-02-02 1. Reich, Otto der Grosse zum Kaiser gekroent (wie oben)
1871-01-01 2. Reich, Bismark
1933-01-30 3. Reich, Hitler Reichskanzler
Wenn ich diese Daten unter meinem richtigen Namen publiziert
haette, wuerde ich jetzt sicher mindestens eine Stunde
investieren um sie nochmals abzusichern. Unter Pseudonym, aber
ist mir das egal - ich habe die Daten damals um die kuerzlich
vergangenen Saturn-Pluto Oppositionen herum gesammelt; da ist
die Chance klein, dass mehr als ein kleiner unwesentlicher
Fehler darin ist. Hingegen, gibt mir das Zeit fuer die folgende
weiterfuehrende Idee:
Jean Richer hat 1967 ein Buch mit dem Titel "Geographie sacree
du monde grec" veroeffentlicht, das in den 90ern in den USA
unter dem Namen "Sacred Geography of The Ancient Greeks,
Astrological Symbolism in Art, Architecture, and Landscape"
herauskam. Darin stellt er die Hypothese auf, dass im alten
Griechenland, die Provinzen ein Ebenbild des Sternkreises
bildeten, mit (v.a.) Delphi als Zentrum und z.B. Sparta fuer
Zwillinge, Athen fuer Jungfrau, etc., und er vergleicht das
mit Ortsangaben in Mythen, mit Symbolen auf Muenzen und auf
anderen Gegenstaenden. In den beiden folgenden Posts von mir,
ist auch ein Link mit einer Karte und einem Ausschnitt aus
der englischen Ausgabe von Jean Richer's Buch, sowie seine
Geburtsdaten:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=d12bedf0.0307071054.30dabe41%40posting.google.com
Von Rom aus gesehen, oder auch von den Schweizer Alpen,
die wie Delphi zentral gelegen in den Bergen sind, waere
Deutschland/Holland durchaus in der Gegend von Steinbock
und Wassermann. Jedenfalls finde ich die Idee ein paar
Gedanken wert.
> > Ueber das mit einem Erntedankfest im Dezember: Vor etwa 5000
> > Jahren, im Stierzeitalter, waere die Grenze zwischen den
> > Konstellationen Schuetze und Steinbock, ganz grob geschaetzt
> > ueber einen Monat vor dem 21.12. gewesen, was vielleicht mehr
> > Sinn macht.
>
> Würde der (westlich) astrologische Tierkreis siderisch sein, so hättest
> du recht. Die bildlichen, astronomischen Konstellationen sind gegenüber
> dem astrologischen TK verschoben. Beide haben jedoch, bis auf die
> Namensgebung (als Eselsbrücke) nichts miteinander zu tun.
Nach meiner Einschaeztung und meinem Wissen sind siderische
Tierkreise und eine Astrologie, die sich an den realen
Positionen der Planeten gegenueber der Sterne orientiert,
die Aelteren. Wann genau der Uebergang stattfand, kann ich
schlecht beurteilen, aber mit einem symbolischen Argument,
wuerde ich eher darauf tendieren, dass im Stierzeitalter,
die reellen Sternzeichen eher wichtig waren, und erst im
naechsten Zeitalter, Widder/Waage, eine gleichberechtigte
Unterteilung in 12 Abschnitte vorgenommen wurde (oder
populaer wurde), was die weitere Abstraktion verursacht
durch die Praezession waehrend dem Fischezeitalter leichter
machte. In dem Zusammenhang ist vielleicht interessant,
was ich in meinem "discoveries.pdf" Dokument dazu schreibe.
> Auch mein Auto hat eine gewisse Anzahl von Pferdestärken, aber unter der
> Motorhaube riecht es nicht nach Pferdemist. :-) Ich kann jedoch als
> historisch interessierter Mensch erkennen, daß es hier irgendwann eine
> Verknüpfung gegeben haben muß, als Automobile noch mit Pferdefuhrwerken
> verglichen wurden.
> Religionen bedienen sich häufig sichtbarer Zeichen ihrer Gottheiten und
> mit ein bisschen Übung würde es einen Technokraten nicht schwerfallen,
> Sterne mit Linien so zu verbinden, daß am Himmel ein Space-Shuttle
> sichtbar würde. Sternbilder sind also reine Projektionen aus dem
> mythischen Kontext heraus, um dem einfachen Menschen aufzuzeigen, daß
> das Göttliche eben doch präsent ist.
> Die Astrologie hat sich dieser Bilder in der Namensgebung ihrer
> 30°-Abschnitte des Jahreskreises bedient. Daß beide analog aber nicht
> identisch sind bemerkst du, daß zum Beispiel das astrolog. Zeichen Stier
> weiblich ist.
> Der astrologische "Winterpunkt" als Trenner zwischen Schütze und
> Steinbock fällt also immer auf jene Zeit, in der sich Herbst und Winter
> voneinander scheiden. Dies wird auch noch in 4000 Jahren so sein, wenn
> das TKZ Schütze im Sternbild Jungfrau steht.
> Vielleicht wird es deutlicher, wenn ich den Widderpunkt zur Erklärung
> heranziehe. Der Widderpunkt kennzeichnet jene Jahreszeit, in dem "der
> Bauer die Rößlein einspannt". Das war vor 2000 Jahre so, es war so als
> das Lied gedichtet wurde und ist auch heute so. ;-)
> Probleme sehe ich erst, wenn man verschiedene astrologische Systeme in
> Beziehung setzt. So komme ich bei der Fixstern-A. immer ins Schleudern,
> da diese ja naturgemäß siderisch ist.
> > In diesem Moment macht es vielleicht Sinn, etwas ueber mich
> > selbst zu erzaehlen: Ich bin Physiker
>
> nobody is perfect (sorry für scientist bashing) ;-)
Physik ist, meiner Meinung nach, das Studium das man am
wenigsten absolvieren kann, wenn man dumm ist. Weil man
logisch Denken koennen muss und sich auch etwas
vorstellen koennen und Ideen haben muss. In vielen
anderen Wissenschaften, kann man mehr mit Fleiss
kompensieren; was nicht heisst, dass man wenn man
intelligent ist, umbedingt Physik studierent sollte...
> > daher ist mein
> > historisches Wissen teilweise beschraenkt, aber ich bin auch
> > lernfaehig.
>
> Ich denke die meisten Astrologen haben ein Problem mit der
> physikalischen Komponente und wissen nicht, daß sich Pluto derzeit
> gleichschnell wie Neptun bewegt. Gerade in der Astrologie ist es
> notwendig über den Tellerrand zu sehen.
>
> > Vor etwas mehr als einem Jahr habe ich auf dem
> > Internet unter meinem richtigen Namen, Alain Stalder, ein
> > Dokument mit Hypothesen und Endeckungen u.A. zur Astrologie
> > veroeffentlicht.
>
> Konnte ich per Google leider nicht entdecken.
> (nur "A few new discoveries in physics")
>
> > Ein Kernpunkt darin ist ein einfaches
> > Modell...
>
> [Hier gekürzt. Modell besser im separaten Thread]
>
> > Ich habe bisher alles ausschliesslich auf englisch
> > beschrieben, auf meiner Webseite: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
>
> Aah! Ezertla I got it!
>
> > oder in meinen Newsgroup posts:
> > http://groups.google.ch/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=
> > d&filter=0
>
> Ist alt.astrology wieder lesbar? Das war doch ne lange Zeit ein
> Trollsumpf wie hier.
Ich habe eine sehr gute Meinung ueber alt.astrology.tropical.
> > (Uebrigens schreibe ich in meinem Hauptdokument im Anhang B
> > auch etwas ueber Lem's Solaris, das ich als sehr detaillierte,
> > analytische Beschreibung der Fische sehe, dessen was per
> > Definition nicht analysiert werden kann (Lem hat die Sonne in
> > der Jungfrau)).
>
> BTW: Ich such schon lange seine Uhrzeit.
> Laut Bonin hat er 12.09.1921, Lemberg.
> Nach anderen Quellen 19.09.1921
Kann ich nicht helfen.
> > Noch ein paar weitere Gedanken: Der Teufel (Satan) ist in
> > meiner Sicht etwa eine Mischung aus Steinbock und Skorpion.
>
> Hier mußt du aufpassen. "Teufel" ist ein Kunstgeschöpf des christlichen
> Mittelalters und hat mit Astrologie nichts zu tun.
> Teufel (devil) <- got. Dewaz <- altg. Deuus <- idg. Djaus pitar
> Die mittelalterliche Kirche benutzte den Himmelgott der Germanen, um ihn
> als Antagonisten ihres "Guten Gottes" (Gott=gut) darzustellen.
> Der Glaube an ihn wurde als Gegenglaube (=Aberglaube) bezeichnet.
>
> Seine Darstellung als bocksbeinigen, geschwänzten und gehörnten
> Bösewicht ist einerseits eine Beziehungnahme zur Venus (der gehörnte
> Stern = Heidensymbol) und den unglücksbringenden Schweifsternen
> (Kometen) und andererseits zu den lustbetonten Satyrn der Griechen und
> dem Hades/Satanas (Gott der Unterwelt).
>
> Hier wurden mehrere Mythologien vermengt, um den armen Heiden
> aufzuzeigen, wie böse ihr ehemaliger Gott doch war. Astrologisch läßt
> sich das kaum verwenden.
Meine Bemerkung war nicht geschichtlich oder etymologisch
gemeint. Siehe auch, was ich in meinem "discoveries.pdf"
Dokument dazu schreibe.
> > Die Symbole passen zusammen: Fest im November, Kastration
> > des Saturn mit einer Sichel
>
> Saturn/Kronos hat seinen Vater Uranos kastriert. Die Begriffe
> Entmannung/Kastration/Beschneidung fallen dementsprechend auf den
> Wechsel Wassermann/Steinbock.
> Selbst wenn ich mir jetzt eine Verschiebung um einen Monat vorstelle
> (also siderisch) komme ich aufs Ende des Dezember.
Die Verwechslung war oberflaechlich ein Fluechtigkeitsfehler,
Auf einer tieferen Ebene, ist das Schicksal von Uranus und
Saturn bezueglich ihrer Soehne jedoch nicht sehr verschieden;
erst Jupiter bricht den Zyklus.
> > resp. Skorpion, der entscheiden
> > muss, und dabei auch, falls wirklich notwendig, entscheidet,
> > was abgeschnitten werden muss (im Sinn der 3 Schicksen
>
> Hmm! Jetzt komme ich doch etwas ins Schleudern.
> Der Begriff "Schicksen" entstammt m.W. aus dem Jiddischen und bedeutet
> "christliche Mädchen".
> Oder meintest du "Schicksalsgöttinnen"? Das waren in den meisten
> Mythologien ebenfalls 3.
>
> > bei denen die Mittlere, das mittlere Wasserzeichen, den
> > Schicksalsfaden abmisst, und die Letzte ihn dann abschneidet).
>
> Aha! Schicksalgöttinnen. ;-)
Ich kann die Etymologie weder bestaetigen noch widerlegen.
In meiner Erfahrung, findet man jedoch fast immer einen
Zusammenhang zwischen aehnlichen Woerten, wenn man nur tief
genug graebt (vgl. Satyr/Saturn). Umgekehrt, sagt eine
Annaeherung von Worten in einer Sprache auch viel ueber die
jeweilige Kultur.
> > Soweit ich weiss, waren in vielen Kulturen die Sternzeichen
> > zuerst sehr gross, es gab zuerst nur 2 oder 3 (ev. als
> > Symbole der Jahreszeiten), erst spaeter zerfielen sie in
> > Kleinere, wie z.B. der Skorpion in Skorpion und Waage.
> > Weiss jemand hier etwas Genaueres, welche Zeichen wann
> > verbunden waren ? (oder eine gute Quelle dazu ?)
>
> Also wenn jemand eine Quelle kennt, dann muß sie schon wahrsagerische
> Fähigkeiten haben, denn die 12-Teilung dürfte noch bis in
> vorgeschichtliche Zeiten zurückzuführen sein. Daß es Völker mit
> Primitiv-Astrologie gab, die erst später die 12-Teilung übernahmen, tut
> dem keinen Abbruch. Ich spekuliere, daß diese 12er-Teilung kurz nach der
> letzten Eiszeit stattfand. Jedenfalls läßt sich diese Parallelität auch
> bei Völkern nachweisen, die sich schon vor gut 8000 jahren abspalteten.
> Deiner Vermutung, daß in den Urzeiten eine Jahreszeiten-Astrologie
> bestand, will ich aber nicht widersprechen.
> :-)
>
> > Nochmals Danke,
> > delphi29@excite.com
>
> Jetzt werde ich mir mal deine PDF-Files einverleiben.
> Danke dafür.
>
> ...Kalle
delphi29@excite.com
Wieder viele interessante Informationen. Ich bin etwa
3 Wochen nach der letzten Uranus-Pluto Konjunktion in
der Mitte der Jungfrau geboren, daher sind mir die
Probleme nicht unbekannt. Heutige Wissenschaft scheint
mir einerseits (astrologisch) jungfraeuliche Zuege
zu haben (Einteilung in viele Spezialdisziplinen mit
wenig Querverbindungen), andererseits versuchen die
einzelnen Disziplinen jeweils ein einziges richtiges
Modell zu finden, dass sich mit allen Fakten deckt,
was mir eher wassermaennisch scheint (hat ihre
Wurzeln auch im letzten Dekan der Fische und dann v.a.
bei der Aufklaerung mit Endeckung des Uranus und auch
Omega Pisces' Vorbeiziehen am Fruehlingspunkt).
Vor allem durch Letzteres (Wassermann) scheint es mir
doch, dass es neue Ideen und auch Fakten, die nicht
sofort in das Bild passen, es ein wenig ungerecht
schwer haben, genuegend Beachtung geschenkt zu bekommen.
Andererseits, gibt das dem Weltbild jeweils eine
hoehere Stabilitaet, was durchaus auch Vorteile fuer
eine Gesellschaft haben kann. Neue Modelle muessten
dann eher etwas im Verborgenen eine gewisse Reife
erreichen, bevor eine groessere Masse sich bereit
erklaert, sich damit zu befassen.
In gewissen Bereichen der Geschichte, waere es
vielleicht sinnvoller, systematisch verschiedene
Theorien fuer die gleichen Zeitabschnitte zu haben,
und auch zu versuchen, diese soweit moeglich auch
quantitativ nach verschiedenen Gesichtspunkten zu
gewichten. Mit anderen Worten, man sollte vielleicht
die moeglichen Vergangenheiten strukturieren, und in
eine Form bringen, die von Computern handlebar ist.
Der fundamentalistische Skeptizismus, den es soweit
ich sehe v.a. in England und seinen ehemaligen
Kolonien gibt, ist mir zu extrem, zu stark gebunden
an die Erde, zu wenig bereit Hypothesen geistig zu
erkunden, zu aengstlich (und dadurch auch zu agressiv).
In der Physik kann man Hypothesen, nachdem man sie
aufgestellt hat, normalerweise experimentell
verifizieren oder falsifizieren; das ist der Punkt
wo kritisches Denken (Skepsis) klar notwendig ist.
Es in der Wissenschaft eine Balance von Beidem.
Nicht jeder ist gleich gut faehig Ideen zu erkunden,
resp. Ideen zu kritisieren, sie skeptisch zu beurteilen.
Aber mindestens sollten beide Seiten sich bewusst sein,
dass es (wenigstens auf Dauer) Fortschritt nur mit
beiden Seiten geben kann. Ob man das am Besten als Kampf
fast bis auf's Messer mit extremen Gegensaetzen macht,
oder eher in freundschaftlicher Kooperation, haengt
wahrscheinlich von Fall zu Fall ab, aber mir persoenlich
ist die zweite Variante lieber.
Danke auch an Martin Bechmann (auch fuer all die Links).
delphi29@excite.com
keyword: exactphilosophy
--
Kalle Sichler <icho@online.de> schrieb in
<1gyppwgokzohg$.dlg@betei.net>:
> Am 18.7. um 2:03 schrieb Martin Bechmann:
>
> > Kalle Sichler schrieb am 18 Jul 2003:
>
> >>>> Also wenn jemand eine Quelle kennt, dann muß sie schon wahrsagerische
> >>>> Fähigkeiten haben, denn die 12-Teilung dürfte noch bis in
> >>>> vorgeschichtliche Zeiten zurückzuführen sein.
> >>> Das schließt aber nicht unbedingt aus, dass auch mal weniger
> >>> Sternzeichen verwendet wurden.
> >>
> >> Deswegen fügte ich an:
> >>>> Daß es Völker mit Primitiv-Astrologie gab, die erst später die
> >>>> 12-Teilung übernahmen, tut dem keinen Abbruch.
>
> > Okay, vielleicht hätte ich meine Skepsis deutlicher zum Ausdruck bringen
> > sollen... Das Zauberwort in Deinem ganz oben zitierten Posting ist
> > "dürfte". Sicherlich haben schon in der Steinzeit Menschen den Nachthimmel
> > beobachtet. Aber auf wen jetzt eigentlich die 12-Teilung zurückzuführen
> > ist, ist nach wie vor nicht gesichert.
>
> Und je weiter wir in die Vergangenheit zurückgehen, umso ungesicherter
> werden die Daten. Denke nur an den Brand von Alexandria. Und
> kriegerische "Barbaren"-Völker haben sich meist einen Sch... darum
> gekümmert, welche Werte sie brandschatzten.
>
> >(Soweit ich sehe, sind die
> > Babylonier die besten Kandidaten, geschichtswissenschaftlich gesehen.)
>
> Evtl. noch die Sumer. Aber solange wir nicht irgendeine "versunkene"
> Bibliothek finden, werden "exakte Beweise" aus früheren zeiten
> ausbleiben.
>
> > Dabei finde ich sowohl den Standpunkt dessen, was wir 'exakt' d.h.
> > wissenschaftlich wissen, als auch gute, aber nicht-wissenschaftliche
> > Spekulationen interessant.
>
> Auch "Spekulationen" (sprich Hypothese oder Theorie) sind
> wissenschaftliches Handwerkszeug. :-)
> Nach deiner Definition dürften also "Wissenschaftler", die sich um das
> Erdaltertum (Entstehung der Erde, Sauriere etc) bemühen, reine
> Spekulanten sein, die man eher den Esoteriker zuorden sollte. :-)
> Damit wäre auch meine Grundannahme: "Martin ist intelligent!" eine
> Null-Aussage, da sie ja auf reinen Vermutungen und Wissen aus dritter
> Hand (Buchstaben auf den Bildschirm) besteht und damit äußerst
> spekulativ ist. (harhar)
>
> > (Wenn Du also eine Quelle für die
> > vorgeschichtlichen Wurzeln des Zodiaks hast, würde mich das schon
> > interessieren.
>
> Wenn mir irgendwann jemand eine solche Quelle nennen würde, wäre ich
> sehr erheitert. Wir haben es hier nicht mit einer mathematischen oder
> geometrischen "Erfindung" zu tun, wie z.B. dem Kreis des Thales, sondern
> um eine Art Kulturgut wie: "Alle guten Dinge sind Drei", "Auf einem Bein
> steht sich's schlecht", "Alle 5e von sich strecken", "Glückzahl 7" usw.
> Den Ursprung der 12er-Teilung zu finden ist m.E. genauso von
> erfolgreich, wie den Erfinder des Rades oder dem des Feuers.
> Apropos: Bei Ausgrabungen am Bodensee wurden Bumerangs gefunden, die
> Inkas kannten das Rad (Spielzeug). Solche Erkenntisse zeigen, daß
> "Erfindungen" nicht nur einmal gemacht wurden, sondern immer dann, wenn
> sie notwendig waren und dementsprechend auch wieder verschwinden
> konnten.
> Was bedeuten jetzt die Bumerangs am Bodensee? Daß die australischen
> Aborigines abgekupfert haben? (lineares Denken)
> Diese Fixierung auf einen "Erfinder" stammt noch aus den Anfängen der
> "Schönen neuen Zeit", des 17.-18. Jahrhunderts, wo jeder technische
> Neuerung tatsächlich auf *eine* Person zurückzuführen war, eben dem
> *Erfinder*. Es ist eine unglückseelische Eigenschaft, die nichts
> anerkennt, was eben keinen Namen, keinen Vater hat.
> Diese Kritik an der auslaufenden, homozentrischen Wissenschaft will ich
> im nächsten Ansatz präzisieren.
>
> > Ich denke allerdings dass eine 'strikte' (also gleichmäßige,
> > oder erwarte ich jetzt zuviel von den Altvorderen?) 12-Teilung Mathematik
> > und die Schrift voraussetzt, also kaum vor den Sumerern oder höchstens
> > Harrappa zurückzudatieren ist. Untergegangene Hochkulturen kann man
> > natürlich nie ausschließen.)
>
> Dies setzt voraus, das der ultimative Beginn von Schrift und Mathe auf
> diese Zeit zurückzuführen ist und nicht früher. Es grenzt also alle
> Kulturen aus, die vor diesem Datum existierten.
> Die Sphinx wäre also nie gebaut wordem, da sie mindesten 7000 Jahre alt
> ist und man solch ein Ding kaum ohne genauere Berechnungen und
> organisierte Bauleitung schaffen kann. Städte wie Jericho (vor 9000
> Jahren) und die dort gefundenen gleichalten Artefakte einer
> Kupferverhüttung sind nicht denkbar, da dies auch ohne Wissenschaft
> nicht denkbar ist.
> Vor 20 Jahren war ich in Frankreich im Forret Noir in einem kleinem
> Dörfchen (Glozel), um mir dort alte Schriften anzusehen. Im dortigen
> Museum wurden Knochen, Steine und Tontafeln ausgestellt auf denen Tier-,
> Menschen- und Zeichenritzungen zu erkennen sind und die Authentizität
> von der Französchischen Akademie für Archäologie anerkannt wurden. Nach
> einer Untersuchung der University of Oxfort (C14 und Luminiszenz)
> konnten die Artefakte auf 12000-15000 BC datiert werden. Die Zeichen
> sind einwandfrei erkennbar Schrift-Zeichen.
> Bei Barnanez im Nordwesten Frankreichs steht eine haushohe 70m lange
> Stufenpyramide. Als ich Mitte der 70er Jahre zum ersten mal dort war
> (aufgrund eines Geheimtipps) gaben die dort arbeitenden Archäologen an,
> die Anlage sei 3500 Jahre alt. Ein Jahr später erfuhr ich von den
> gleichen Wissenschaftlern, die Anlage sei 5000 Jahre alt. Bei einem
> Besuch Mitte der 80er lag das Alter bei 7000 Jahre. Diese Stufenpyramide
> hat übrigens Dolmen überbaut, die noch viel älter sind.
>
> Ich habe im Laufe der Zeit noch viel andere solcher "Unmöglichkeiten"
> gesehen, um noch an die Wissenschaftlichkeit der meisten Wissenschaftler
> zu glauben. (Dies ist keine Kritik an der Wissenschaft, sondern an der
> Art und Weise wie sie gehandhabt wird).
>
> Wie bereitwillig sog. wissenschaftliche Erkenntnisse aufgenommen werden,
> wenn sie ein Weltbild bestätigen und wie bereit man ist dafür exakte
> Daten zu beugen, mag folgendes Beispiel zeigen:
> Wissenschaftlicher Standard ist es zu behaupten, die Indianer
> Nordamerikas wären vor ca. 30000 und letztlich vor 11000 Jahren auf den
> Kontinent eingewandert. Eine genetische Untersuchung in den 90ern
> belegte jedoch, daß einige Völker (Navajo, Haidas) viel näher mit den
> sibirischen Einwohnern verwandt sind. Diese Untersuchung wurde deshalb
> nicht anerkannt. Was die Völkerkundler allesamt verschweigen ist die
> Tatsache, daß diese Völker aus dem Norden die Hochseejagd auf Robben
> schon seit Jahrtausenden beherrschen, die Beringstraße nur 60 km breit
> ist (das gegenüberliegende Ufer ist bei klarem Wetter zu sehen) und noch
> in geschichtlicher Zeit durch *Aufzeichnungen* der <Hudson Bay Company>
> belegt ist, daß Verwandte auf beiden Seiten der Beringstraße sich
> gegenseitig besuchten und Handelsware mitbrachten. Im Winter kan man das
> gegenüberliegende Ufer in 3 Tagen zu Fuß erreichen. Es ist also eine
> wissentliche Lüge zu behaupten, die letzten Indianer seien zum Ende der
> letzten Eiszeit eingewandert.
>
> Vielleicht interessiert noch folgender Artikel, der einige Kritiker hier
> zusammenzucken läßt und sicherlich auch Delphi Twentine interessieren
> wird:
>
> | Nicht nur für subatomare Teilchen gelten die Gesetze der
> | Quantenmechanik. Auch makroskopische Gegenstände sollten
> | diesen Regeln folgen. Die dabei auftretenden Effekte wären
> | aber winzig und kaum messbar. Allerdings haben Wissenschaftler
> | jetzt ein Werkzeug entwickelt, um vielleicht doch noch der
> | geheimen *Quantennatur des Makrokosmos* auf die Spur zu...
> | http://www.wissenschaft-online.de/artikel/620917&template=d_nd_y
> (Betonung durch mich. Der Artikel ist leider nicht kostenfrei)
>
> Warum ich mich gerade so echauffiert habe? :-)
> Es ist diese Sucht nach Exaktheit! Da ich ja selbst Virgo bin, versuche
> ich mich immer aus diesen Fesseln zu befreien (VI -> PI). Ich begreife
> die Suche nach unerschütterliche Exaktheit als eine Art Selbstlüge, denn
> es gibt sie nicht! Ein Apfel mag, hochgeworfen, millionenmal zu Boden
> fallen und ich mag die Gesetzmäßigkeit mathematisch ausdrücken können,
> es ist und bleibt eine Erkenntnis im Rahmen der höchstmöglichen
> Plausibilität.
>
> > Jaaa, aber... Stonehenge wurde bestimmt zur Himmelsbeobachtung genutzt,
>
> Zu welchem Zweck? :-)
>
> > aber vielleicht ging es 'praktisch' nur um einen guten Kalender, um z.B.
> > Aussaatdaten zu bestimmen? Soll heißen, wir wissen nicht, mit wieviel
> > astronomischem/astrologischem Wissen die Warte betrieben wurde.
> > Naja, der Skeptiker in mir geht halt immer wieder mit mir durch! :-)
>
> Und dieser Skeptizismus läßt dir etliche Dinge übersehen. Er hält dich
> in der Spur und legt dir Scheuklappen an.
> Würde ich nur Daten benötigen, um einen einfachen Bauernkalender zu
> erstellen, dann muß ich nicht diesen Aufwand betreiben. Da reichen
> Holzstämme statt tonnenschwere Steine aus.
> Grundsätzlich baut in Stein nur der, der will, daß sein Werk sehr viele
> Generationen überdauert. Ein Observatorium aus Holz hält auch mindestens
> 100 Jahre und läßt sich viel besser korrigieren.
> Die Steine wurden nicht vor Ort geschlagen, sondern über zig Kilometer
> durchs unebenes Gelände und über eine Meeresbucht geschleift. Das
> schaffen keine hundert Mann (die ja auch ernährt sein wollen), sondern
> benötigt eine weitaus größere Organisation.
> Als Beispiel seine hier die Alignement (Steinreihen) in der Bretagne bei
> Carnac erwähnt. *Abertausende* tonnenschwere Steine stehen in mehreren
> Reihen parallel zu einander und enden gelegentlich in einem Steinkreis.
> Einige dieser Steine haben ein Gewicht von mehr als 300 (!) Tonnen.
> Als ich vor diesen Ungetümen stand, ist mir praktisch die Kinnlade
> runtergefallen und ich mußte erkennen, daß alle Autoren von
> wissenschaftlichen Abhandlungen, die ich bis dato zu diesem Thema
> gelesen habe, niemals an Ort und Stelle gewesen sein konnten.
>
> Nochmal zum Problem mit dem Stein als Baustoff. Wenn ich früher in der
> Schule einen Aufsatz schrieb, so habe ich normalerweise mit einem
> Bleistift angefangen zu schreiben, viel wieder rausradiert und dann ganz
> am Schluß mit einem Füller oder Kuli ins Reine geschrieben. Wer mit
> Stein baut, ist sich seiner Sache sicher. Da kann man nicht mehr viel
> korrigieren. Das Modell jedoch ist aus Holz. Und wenn unsere Altvorderen
> nicht gerade von einem anderen Stern gefallen sind, so werden sie es
> genauso gehandhabt haben.
> Wenn man mit Steinen "in Reine" baut, vor allem solche Anlagen, dann
> steht dahinter eine generationenlange Erfahrung; nicht nur in der
> Baukunst (was ja auch ne Wissenschaft ist), sondern auch im
> Verwendungszweck. Schließlich benötigt die 19-jährige Periodizität
> (MKn), die dieser Anlage zugrunde liegt, eine exakte Beobachtungzeit,
> die nicht von einer Person bewältigt werden kann. Bei 10
> Beobachtungsperioden bin ich bereits bei 190 Jahren. Und als sie "ins
> Reine" gebaut wurde, mußte zumindest eine Theorie (unreine Daten), also
> ebenfalls Beobachtungen über Generationen vorgelegen haben.
> (Der letzte Halbsatz kann jedoch gestrichen werden, wenn die Alten eine
> hohe Mathematik, die unserer gleichkommt, beherrschten.)
>
> Laut Platon waren es damals die besten Wissenschaftler, die die Welt
> aufbieten konnte. Und ihre Leistungen sind nicht vorstellbar, ohne ihnen
> eine Mathematik oder Schrift zuzubilligen. Zu behaupten, eine
> systematische Wissenschaftlichkeit (siehe 12er-Teilung) könne nur seit
> Babylon rep. Sumer existieren, hilft nur jenen wieder ins Boot, die die
> Erschaffung der Welt vor 6000 Jahren mit Adam und Eva propagieren. Und
> damit kann rückwärtsgerichteter Skeptizismus, wie er in weiten Teilen
> der Wissenschaften kultiviert wird, wieder zum Sprungbrett jener Geister
> werden, die gerne im Trüben fischen (Neo-Esos).
>
> Ich frage mich eher, was jene Leute beabsichtigen, die ein lineares
> Geschichtsbild fördern. Nach deren Ansicht sind wir in Europa und
> neuerdings in Amerika, ausgehend von Babylon über die Ägypter, der
> griechischen und römischen Antike (die Araber unterschlagend), die Krone
> der Schöpfung.
> Und so werden weiterhin Beweise (exaktes Wissen) unterschlagen, um diese
> Selbstbeweihräucherung nicht zu gefährten.
> An dieser Stelle setze *ich* meine Skepsis an.
>
> >> Ich habe das Winshop-Archiv in den letzten 24 Monaten quasi leergeräumt
> >> (über 400 Sterne und alle Texte auf englisch, hmmpf).
>
> > (Englisch ist doch klasse! Wäre Dir Arabisch oder auch sumerische
> > Keilschrift lieber gewesen? ;-) )
>
> Du wirst lachen! JA! ;-)
> Dann hätte ich wenigstens die Originaltexte.
> Und vor gut 35 Jahren konnte ich die ägyptischen Hieroglyphen und die
> Keilschrift besser lesen als englisch. Letzteres konnte ich nämlich gar
> nicht und habe es mir später selbst beigebracht.
>
> >> Hintergrund:
> >> Ich möchte herausfinden, ob es sich bei den Arabern um eine Fixstern-
> >> oder Wirkpunkt-Astrologie handelt. Ist es ersteres, dann wandern die
> >> Eigenschaften eines Ortes mit dem betreffenden Stern durch die TKZ. Ist
> >> es aber eine Wirkpunkt-Astrologie, dann bleiben die Wirkorte im Bezug
> >> zum synodischen TK stehen, wandern also nicht mit den Sternen mit. Der
> >> Stern Algol hätte also mittlerweile nicht mehr die Eigenschaft "Algol".
>
> > Ich hätte das jetzt nie in Zweifel gestellt, denn auch wenn ich mich damit
> > nicht auskenne, so denke ich doch, dass auch die siderische Astrologie ihre
> > Berechtigung hat.
>
> Meine Art des Skeptizismus! ;-)
>
> > Aber: Ungewöhnliche Hypothese, aber gerade deswegen desto
> > spannender. Gab es einen konkreten Anlaß dafür?
>
> GSPs und Kritische Grade. Sind diese fix oder bewegen sie sich?
> Für mich sind auch Döbi oder Roscher nicht zweifelsfrei. :-)
>
> > Grüße,
> > Martin
>
> Grüße ... Kalle
Hannelore Goos <HGoos@boudicca.de> schrieb in
<ovhghvc8dm24cf1ga8q1vs7dia1q73s6gc@4ax.com>:
> Hallo Martin,
>
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:37:15 +0200, Martin Bechmann
> <martin.bechmann@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> >> Also wenn jemand eine Quelle kennt, dann muß sie schon wahrsagerische
> >> Fähigkeiten haben, denn die 12-Teilung dürfte noch bis in
> >> vorgeschichtliche Zeiten zurückzuführen sein.
> >
> >Das schließt aber nicht unbedingt aus, dass auch mal weniger
> >Sternzeichen verwendet wurden. Besonders gute Quellen habe ich auch
> >nicht, aber obiges habe ich auch schon desöfteren gehört. Eine
> >google-Recherche nach "libra 'part of scorpio'" fördert auch einige
> >Treffer zu Tage, z.B. http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Libra.html
>
> Fällt eigentlich niemandem auf, dass es außer dem WWW auch noch andere
> Quellen gibt?
> Der angeblich älteste Tierkreis enthält bereits 12 Symbole. Die
> Darstellung stammt aus West-Afrika (Bogaz Köi) und ist nachweislich
> mehr als 10 000 Jahre alt. Das Alter ist sicher, weil der Zeichnung
> ein Altbüffel zugrundeliegt, der bereits am Ende der Altsteinzeit
> ausgestorben is. Ob es sich bei den Zeichen um einen Tierkreis handelt
> ist weniger sicher.
> Quelle: L. Frobenius und H.Obermaier "Hadschra Maktouba"
>
> Der heutige Tierkreis wurde von den Ägyptern erfunden und in die
> sumerische Planetenastrologie eingeführt (Knappich, Geschichte der
> Astrologie).
>
> Dass es jemals weniger als 12 Sternzeichen gegeben habe soll, habe ich
> noch nie gehört oder gelesen. Handelt es sich nicht um eine
> Verwechslung mit dem Häusersystem? Tatsächlich hatten die Babylonier
> ein System der 8 "Wachen" statt unserer heutigen 12 Häuser.
> Gruß
> Hannelore Goos
Die Aussage, dass die Waage frueher die Scheren des Skorpions
waren, habe ich schon mehrfach gelesen, u.a. in Liz Greene's
"The Astrology of Fate" (im Abschnitt ueber die Waage). Wenn
ich meinen Notizen trauen kann, sagt sie dort sogar, dass es
die Waage im Sternkreis erst seit dem 2. Jahrhundert vor Chr.
gibt. Sie macht soweit ich mich erinnere keine Aussagen, ob
es frueher weniger als 12 Sternzeichen waren (oder doch 12,
aber einfach andere) und auch nicht darueber, seit wann es
eine Einteilung in 12 gleiche Teile gibt. Ob sie etwas sagt,
wer dem Skorpion die Scheren genommen hat, weiss ich nicht
mehr; wahrscheinlicher nicht.
delphi29@excite.com
Richard Vetter (RichardVetter@gmx.de) schrieb:
> Hallo allerseits,
>
> mich beschäftigt zur Zeit die Frage, ob es sich beim "astrologischen
> Wirkmechanismus" nicht hauptsächlich um einen Projektionsvorgang handelt,
> genauer: um eine Kollektivprojektion.
> Unsere Altvorderen malten ihre Innenvorgänge, innere Figuren und Abläufe an
> den Himmel, sie "sahen" dort etwas, das ihrem Inneren entstammte. Sie
> schrieben den äußeren Gestirnen Ursache und Verantwortung für die
> fundamentalen Lebensprozesse zu.*
> Die beobachtete Sinnhaftigkeit im Kosmos wäre so gesehen Ergebnis einer
> Attribution bzw. einer Verständigung der Menschen - darüber, was ein Planet,
> ein Zeichen/ eine Phase bedeutet.
> Eine Folgerung hieraus wäre, dass sich "Wahrheit" nur im Beratungsgespräch
> zeigt - wo sich Astrologe und Klient über die schicksalshafte Bedeutung
> einer Konstellation einigen (auf der Basis von tradiertem Erfahrungsschatz
> und aktueller Lebenswirklichkeit; Dialogkonsenskriterium). D.h. die
> astrologische Wahrheit ist eine subjektive bzw. intersubjektive; jedenfalls
> keine sog. "objektive"**, an äußeren Kriterien festzumachende (u.a. nicht
> statistisch überprüfbare - da es statistischen Untersuchungen an dem
> wesentlichen Moment der subjektiven Betroffenheit/ des individuellen
> Schicksalsbezugs mangelt).
> Astrologie ist ein Kulturgut, eine von Menschen entwickelte
> Schicksals-Deutungssprache, abhängig von den Einstellungen, Erwartungen und
> Bedürfnissen der jeweiligen Kultur. Die Sterne sind jedenfalls nichts per se
> "Wirksames" (auch Transite nicht). Astrologie ist ein Werkzeug, ein zu einem
> bestimmten Zweck nützliches Instrument; andere Kulturen (Indien, Amerika,
> China) entwickelten eine andere, jeweils auf sie passende Astrologie.
>
> * Die Frage nach dem astrologischen Wirkmechanismus wäre demnach eher eine
> Frage nach den sog. Archetypen - d.h. nach den Kräften, Faktoren, etc., die
> in der menschlichen Psyche wirksam sind.
>
> ** Wenn man über die naturwissenschaftliche "Objektivität" nachdenkt, merkt
> man bald, dass es sich dabei im Grunde auch nur um intersubjektive
> "Wahrheiten" handelt, d.h. um eine Verständigung der Wissenschaftler
> darüber, was "objektiv" sei bzw. dass ihre Apparate das Gewünschte
> tatsächlich messen.
>
> Für ein magisches Weltbild - wo das Innere dem Äußeren entspricht, das Obere
> dem Unteren, bzw. wo wir gar unsere Außenwelt aus dem Inneren stets neu
> erschaffen - ist ein solches Verständnis von der Astrologie eigtl. nicht
> verwunderlich. Dennoch erschreckt mich die Radikalität meines Denkansatzes -
> vielleicht wegen der damit verbundenen Verantwortung des Menschen oder weil
> man dann nichts "Äußeres", "Objektives" mehr hat zum Festhalten...
>
> Oder was denkt Ihr (Einwände, Anmerkungen, Ideen, Kritik)?
>
> Gruß,
> - Richard
Auch Hallo allerseits,
Ich moechte die Gelegenheit nutzen und die Dinge aus
meiner Sicht praesentieren, da ich dies bisher auf
deutsch nicht getan habe. Ich werde zuerst konkret
anfangen und dann schrittweise philosophischer werden.
Fuer Leute, die englisch lesen koennen, werde ich auch
Verweise auf meine englischen Newsgroup Posts und auf
meine auf dem Web veroeffentlichten Dokumente geben.
Ohne definitiv etwas versprechen zu koennen, plane ich
auch das Folgende in den naechsten Jahren in einer
Form zu veroeffentlichen, die nicht nur fuer Experten
zugaenglich ist; und zwar voraussichtlich parallel auf
englisch und auf deutsch und mit vielen Illustrationen,
fuer Leute, die nicht so gut abstrakt denken und sich
etwas vorstellen koennen, wie ein Physiker.
Also, zu den wesentlichen astrologischen Einsichten,
die ich vor etwas mehr als einem Jahr auf dem Internet
veroeffentlicht habe (http://www.exactphilosophy.net):
1. Sternzeichen durch Archetypen fuer die Elemente
Aristoteles sah die 4 Elemente zusammengesetzt aus den
fundamentaleren Gegensaetzen warm/kalt und trocken/feucht:
Feuer = heiss+trocken
Luft = feucht+heiss
Wasser = kalt+feucht
Erde = trocken+kalt
Uebergaenge zwischen den Elementen sind moeglich und
gehen schneller falls nur eine Eigenschaft geflippt
werden muss, d.h. im Ring Feuer-Luft-Wasser-Erde-Feuer,
wohingegen die Umwandlung Feuer-Wasser resp.
Luft-Erde nur indirekt vonstatten gehen kann.
Referenz dazu: Aristoteles, "De Generatione et
Corruptione"; ich habe auf deutsch weder ein Buch
noch eine Kopie auf dem Web gefunden, daher hier ein
Link auf eine englische Kopie auf dem Web:
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8gc/
(das Obige ist v.a. in Buch II, Kapitel 2 und 3)
Davon ausgehend hatte ich im Februar 2001 die folgende
wesentliche Idee:
Die 3 Sternzeichen jedes der 4 Elemente, beschreiben
verschiedene Zustaende im Uebergang von einem Element
ueber das Eigene zu einem weiteren Element. Anstatt
das im Detail abstrakt zu formulieren, ist es wohl
einfacher einfach die vier Faelle aufzuzaehlen:
1a. Feuer
Hier ist der Uebergang, der von Holz (Erde) durch Feuer
zu Rauch (Luft). Widder, das erste Feuerzeichen im
Sternkreis, besteht daher v.a. aus Erde und aus wenig
Luft, der Loewe, aus etwa gleichen Anteilen von Erde
und Luft, und schliesslich der Schuetze v.a. aus
Luft und aus wenig Erde. D.h. die 3 Feuerzeichen werden
durch 3 Stadien im archetypischen Bild eines brennenden
Feuers beschrieben.
Was heisst das jetzt bezueglich den psychologischen
Eigenschaften der Feuerzeichen ? Dazu muss man einfach
die abstrakten Eigenschaften eines Feuers betrachten.
Holz (Erde) steht auch fuer den Koerper, d.h. durch
das Verbrennen entsteht eine Wunde, wie sie in der
psychologischen Astrologie mit dem Loewen (zum Beispiel
Gralskoenig) und dem Schuetzen verbunden wird (zum
Beispiel Chairon). Etwas abstrakter, sieht man, dass
die Vorstellungskraft des Feuers, den menschlichen
(d.h. sterblichen) Koerper verwandelt in Wissen (Luft),
das muendlich oder schriftlich an die naechsten
Generationen weitergegeben werden kann, und dadurch
unsterblich wird. D.h. man bekommt den symbolischen
Uebergang von Tier (Widder) zu Mensch (Loewe, auch
Koenig als Bindeglied) zu Gott (Zeus).
Daraus bekommt man eine ganze Reihe von sehr konkreten
psychologischen Aussagen: Je sterblicher man ist,
desto mehr muss man sein Wissen und seinen Besitz
schuetzen, desto sparsamer und verschlossener muss
man sein. Auch die Ungeduld des Widders ist verbunden
mit seiner hoeheren (symbolischen) Sterblichkeit als
der Schuetze. In diesem Modell, ist der Widder sogar
egoistischer als der Loewe, was sich aber weniger als
Problem aeussert, da erst der Loewe es lernen muss,
zwischen seinen Beduerfnissen (Erde) und denen anderer
(Luft) abzuwaegen.
1b. Luft
Luft habe ich schon in einem frueheren Post hier ganz
kurz beschrieben. Trotzdem nochmals: Das archetypische
Bild ist eine Wolke aus der sowohl Blitze (Feuer) als
auch Regen (Wasser) kommen. Mit anderen Worten, der
Uebergang ist von v.a. Feuer (Zwillinge) ueber ein
Gleichgewicht von Feuer und Wasser (Waage) zu v.a.
Wasser (Wassermann). Psychologisch sieht man dort, wie
in allen Elementen einen Uebergang von Kind ueber
Erwachsenen zu altem Menschen. Blitze oder eine Flamme
sind schnell und unvorhersehbar. Das wird mit den
Zwillingen assoziiert. Kinder spielen, d.h. sehen sich
unter Anderem die Dinge von vielen verschiedene Seiten
an, um sich ein Gesamtbild zu bilden. Erst im Kopf wird
aus den zwei Seiten einer Muenze ein einziges Ding, die
Muenze. Je aelter man wird, desto mehr Dinge in der
Welt werden als Variationen von bereits bekanntem
erkannt. Wassermann, das letzte Wasserzeichen, besteht
v.a. aus Wasser, das transparent ist. Der Regen behandelt
jeden gleich.
Zusammengefasst, sind die Vorhersagen, dass von Zwillingen
ueber Waage zu Wassermann, Transparenz und Kontinuiaet
zunimmt, aber auch Flexibilitaet und Anpassungsfaehigkeit
abnehmen.
1c. Wasser
Das archetypische Bild ist Eis (Erde), das durch Schmelzen
zu Wasser wird und anschliessend verdampft (Luft). Eng
verbunden damit, ist der Kreislauf des Wassers, von der
Quelle in den Bergen (Krebs, Gletscher, Schnee) ueber
einen Fluss (Skorpion) zum Meer, wo das Wasser wieder
verdampft (Fische). Vom kleinen Bach bis ins Meer werden
immer mehr verschiedene Einfluesse eingebunden. Kurz
gesagt, werden Grenzen aufgeloest: Wo der Krebs v.a.
versucht sich von zu vielen Einfluessen zu schuetzen,
erlaubt der Skorpion schon mehr, ist aber sehr skeptisch
und auch bereit zurueckzugeben, und die Fische lassen
eigentlich alle Einfluesse auf sich zu kommen.
Wiederum eng verbunden ist das wieder mit dem Leben,
diesmal einer Frau. Die 3 Schicksalgoettinnen sind
junge Frau (vor Geschlechtsreife), die sich noch nicht
Maennern hingibt, erwachsene Frau (Mondphase um den
Vollmond, entsprechend Bauch bei Schwangerschaft),
die sich schon Maennern oeffnet, aber sich auch zu
wehren oder raechen weiss, und dann die alte Frau, die
schon alles gesehen und daher auch verstehen und
verzeihen kann.
1d. Erde
Hier ist das archetypische Bild ein Baum, der sowohl
das Sonnenlicht (Feuer) von oben, als auch Wasser von
unten durch die Wurzeln braucht. Also ist der Uebergang
von Feuer (Stier) ueber Balance Feuer/Wasser (Jungfrau)
zu Wasser (Steinbock). Die Blaetter und Blueten oben
auf dem Baum sind schoen aber auch kurzlebig; die
Wurzeln ernaehren den Baum nicht nur, sie verhindern
auch, dass der Baum umfaellt und sind langlebiger
ueber mehrere Jahre vorhanden. D.h. Im Uebergang von
Stier ueber Jungfrau zu Steinbock wird Struktur und
Ordnung wichtiger als Schoenheit. Entsprechend wird
es in hoeherem Alter auch wichtiger sparsam mit
seinen (jetzt reduzierten) Ressourcen umzugehen
und dadurch auch mehr zu planen.
Interessant ist hier wiederum, dass in diesem Modell
der Steinbock als ordentlicher als die Jungfrau
beschrieben wird. Die Assoziation von Ordnung mit
Jungfrau, scheint also daher zu kommen, dass das
fuer die Jungfrau viel mehr ein Thema ist, da,
durch das Ausbalancieren von Schoenheit und Ordnung,
Ordnung oder nicht Ordnung viel mehr ein Thema ist
als fuer den Steinbock, wo die Entscheidung fuer
die Ordnung viel einfacher ist, und die Lust nur
dann zum Zug kommt, wenn fuer die Struktur schon
gesorgt wurde.
2. Planeten und Beziehungen
Hier moechte ich nicht zuviel sagen; ich bin mir auch
nicht bei allen Teilen ganz sicher, ob sie wirklich
zutreffen:
2a. Sonne im Geburtshoroskop: Wie man als Vater und
auch wie man gegenueber dem Vater ist. Wirkt sich auch
gleich aus bei Leuten mit entsprechenden Rollen, wie
z.B. als/gegenueber einem maennlichen Lehrer.
2b. Dasselbe mit Mond und Mutter.
2c. Mars/Venus: Wie man gegenueber maennlichen resp.
weiblichen Liebhabern ist.
2d. Merkur: Wie man gegenueber Geschwistern und auch
gegenueber Konkurenten in der Liebe ist.
3. Elemente und Zahlen (Aspekte) und die Welt
Die Zahlen 1,2,3,4 lassen sich am Besten wie folgt
mit der vier Elementen assoziieren:
1 - Feuer - individuelle Vorstellung
2 - Luft - logische Konsequenzen
3 - Wasser - kollektive Gefuehle/Wuensche
4 - Erde - Realitaet
Diese Zuordnung ist am Einfachsten ersichtlich aus den
Bedeutungen der Aspekte: Die Konjunktion (1) ist eine
Vereinigung, eine Verschmelzung (durch Waerme, Feuer)
von den verschiedenen Eigenschaften der beteiligten
Planeten auf ein einziges Ziel (jeweiliges Sternzeichen
oder ggf. auch 2). Opposition ist der Wettkampf zwischen
zwei (logischen) Gegensaetzen. Ein Trigon (3) ist zwar
harmonisch, aber auch recht passiv (Wasser). Ein Quadrat
kann man auch als Kreuz sehen, das abstrakte Bild fuer
einen Baum (Erde).
Man kann das Ganze auch mit den Sinnen assoziieren.
Diesmal in der umgekehrten Reihenfolge: Die Realitaet
(Erde) wird v.a. mit 2 Haenden plus 2 Fuessen beruehrt
(d.h. mit 4 Dingen). Ob etwas gut oder schlecht fuer
unseren Koerper ist, wird mit 2 Nasenloechern und mit
einer Zunge beurteilt (total 3, Wasser), und man weiss
erst nach dem Riechen oder Schmecken, ob es gut war,
d.h. dann ist es im schlimmsten Fall bereits zu spaet,
was recht gut zu der Skepsis des mittleren
Wasserzeichens, des Skorpions passt. Die zwei Ohren
sind auf gegenueberliegenden Seiten des Kopfes; die
Augen liefern ein Bild.
Ueber die philosophischen weiterfuerenden Ideen dazu
moechte ich weiter unten kommen.
Jetzt mal als Erstes zur Beweisbarkeit der Astrologie.
In meiner Einschaetzung als Experimentalphysiker mit
genuegend Erfahrung in der Astrologie, bestehen keine
wesentlichen Huerden mehr, die einem quantitativen
Beweis von einem vereinfachten Modell der Astrologie
(z.B. wie oben beschrieben) im Wege stehen wuerden.
Was noch fehlt, sind lediglich ein paar gute
Experimentalwissenschaftler und ein paar Jahre
sorgfaeltige Arbeit. Natuerlich wird es Probleme
geben, aber diese liessen sich soweit ich sehe mit
bekannten Techniken ueberwinden. Etwas experimentell
bestaetigen ist immer mit einem gewissen Aufwand und
mit Hindernissen verbunden, aber das gehoert zum
Handwerk.
Jetzt zum "Wirkmechanismus", den ich postuliert hatte:
(siehe http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf;
N.B.: Liest sich am Angenehmsten ausgedruckt oder mit
Adobe Reader Version 6; mit frueheren Versionen werden
die Buchstaben eher schlecht dargestellt).
Die wesentliche Idee ist, dass Menschen gefuehlsmaessig
auch ueber groessere Distanzen verbunden sind. Bevor
ich zu einem moeglichen Mechanismus dafuer komme, zu
den unmittelbaren Konsequenzen, die das haben wuerde:
Diese Beziehungen wuerden alle Menschen verbinden, d.h.
ein viel groesseres Gehirn bilden, das sich Archetypen
schon viele Jahrtausende merken koennte und durch seine
(kollektiven) Gedanken, Ideen, Absichten, Gefuehle,
wiederum die einzelnen Menschen beinflussen wuerde.
In dem Sinn, waere die kollektive Vorstellung der
Astrologie kollektiv in allen Menschen vorhanden,
allerdings meist unbewusst, weswegen sich Astrologie
auch bei den Leuten auswirkt, die bewusst nicht an sie
glauben, resp. die Symbole bewusst nicht lesen koennen.
Es waeren natuerlich auch lokale Variationen denkbar;
es ist nicht zwingend so, dass es langreichweitige
Verbindungen zwischen Menschen gibt. Man koennte sich
Informationen ueber Geburtdatum etc. auch unbewusst mit
Gesten oder Tonfall etc. uebermitteln. Um diese zwei
Hypothesen experimentell zu unterscheiden, koennte man
untersuchen, wie stark sich Astrologie auf Menschen
auswirkt, die ueber Jahre keinen Kontakt mit Menschen
haben, weil sie z.B. irgendwo in der Wildnis leben.
Trotzdem zu einem moeglichen Mechanismus: Fuer Leute,
die nicht Physiker sind, mag es sehr erstaunlich
erscheinen, dass ich elektrostatische Kraefte als
moeglichen Mechanismus vorschlage, wo doch jeder, der
ein Radio mit Antenne hat oder ein Handy, weiss wie
leicht es doch scheinbar ist, elektromagnetische
Wellen abzuschirmen...
Das trifft zwar in den Faellen praktisch zu, ist aber
(wenigstens strikt nach der Theorie) nicht wirklich
der Fall. In einem Metallkasten (Faraday Kaefig), hat
es kein Feld (keine elektrische Kraft), und zwar
nicht wegen Abschirmung, sondern weil sich die freien
Ladungen (Elektronen) auf der Metalloberflaeche so
umverteilen, dass sich ein Gegenfeld bildet, das das
urspruengliche Feld genau aufhebt. In der Newtonschen
Mechanik summiert man einfach ueber die Massenpunkte
um die totale Kraft zu bekommen, es gibt a Priori
keine Abschirmung.
Natuerlich ist die Summe aller Kraefte das was man in
einem Experiment messen kann, man kann dort nicht mehr
aufteilen. Allerdings gibt es in der Quantenmechanik
bekannte Effekte, die allein vom Potential abhaengen
und nicht von der Kraft (Ableitung/Aenderung des
Potentials), z.B. Aharonov-Bohm Effekt.
Ich moechte hier nicht weiter auf die physikalischen
Moeglichkeiten eingehen; in meinem Dokument deute ich
noch etwas mehr an, oder auch in diesem Post, der auch
auf weitere Posts und andere Quellen verweist:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220049.375ba38%40posting.google.com
> mich beschäftigt zur Zeit die Frage, ob es sich beim "astrologischen
> Wirkmechanismus" nicht hauptsächlich um einen Projektionsvorgang handelt,
> genauer: um eine Kollektivprojektion.
> Unsere Altvorderen malten ihre Innenvorgänge, innere Figuren und Abläufe an
> den Himmel, sie "sahen" dort etwas, das ihrem Inneren entstammte. Sie
> schrieben den äußeren Gestirnen Ursache und Verantwortung für die
> fundamentalen Lebensprozesse zu.*
> Die beobachtete Sinnhaftigkeit im Kosmos wäre so gesehen Ergebnis einer
> Attribution bzw. einer Verständigung der Menschen - darüber, was ein Planet,
> ein Zeichen/ eine Phase bedeutet.
Aus meiner Sicht ist Astrologie hauptsaechlich das
Resultat einer kollektiven Einigung. *Aber*: Damit
die Leute kollektiv zustimmen, muss das Modell andere
Modelle verdraengen, muss also den Leuten besser
gefallen. Das koennen Gruende innerer Stimmigkeit
und auch Anpassung an die Lebensumstaende sein.
Beides kann echte Einsichten in die Natur enthalten,
die auch heute noch relevant sein koennen.
Als Beispiel fuer die Anpassung an die Lebensumstaende,
moechte ich nur die recht offensichtliche Anpassung der
Sternzeichen an die Jahreszeiten und bauerliche
Taegtigkeiten erwaehnen (z.B. Jungfrau die gerne die
Ernte sortiert, Waage die die Vorraete durch Handel
ausgleicht, etc.)
Als Einsichten in tiefere Geheimnisse, in allgemeine
Zyklen, ist vielleicht dies mein bester Kandidat,
obwohl ich dort noch nichts fuer entschieden halte:
Charles Harvey hat folgenden Artikel ueber Aspekte
zwischen Sonne und Neptun geschrieben:
http://www.astrology-world.com/articles/harvey.html
Er verbindet auseinandergehende Sonne-Neptun Quadrate
(z.B. C.G. Jung) damit kollektives Wissen im Individum
zu entwickeln, was sich sehr gut in Jungs Werk zeigt,
das nur so von verschiedensten komplexen Begriffen
strotzt. In zusammenkommenden Quadraten, sieht Harvey
dagegen, die wesentlichen neuen Ideen wieder kollektiv,
d.h. allen, zugaenglich zu machen. Das betrifft (wie
jeden etwa 36. Menschen) auch ihn selbst oder auch mich,
aber passt eben auch fast exakt bei Leuten wie Francesco
Petracra oder Proclus, die schon lange vor der Entdeckung
des Neptun gelebt haben. Das ist fuer mich bisher das
Einzige was fuer mich gefuehlsmaessig fuer Planeten
*weit* vor ihrer *moeglichen* Entdeckung zutrifft.
Natuerlich haben verschiedene Kulturen auch eine recht
verschiedene Astrolgie. In dem Sinn ist viel Kultur
in der Astrologie viel kollektive Ubereinkunft, aber
die Bausteine, aus denen die Systeme bestehen und die
generelle Art in der sie zusammengesetzt werden, sind
recht aehnlich, und daher auch fuer Naturwissenschaftler
sehr interessant (finde ich wenigstens).
> Eine Folgerung hieraus wäre, dass sich "Wahrheit" nur im Beratungsgespräch
> zeigt - wo sich Astrologe und Klient über die schicksalshafte Bedeutung
> einer Konstellation einigen (auf der Basis von tradiertem Erfahrungsschatz
> und aktueller Lebenswirklichkeit; Dialogkonsenskriterium). D.h. die
> astrologische Wahrheit ist eine subjektive bzw. intersubjektive; jedenfalls
> keine sog. "objektive"**, an äußeren Kriterien festzumachende (u.a. nicht
> statistisch überprüfbare - da es statistischen Untersuchungen an dem
> wesentlichen Moment der subjektiven Betroffenheit/ des individuellen
> Schicksalsbezugs mangelt).
Wie oben dargelegt, bin ich mir recht sicher, dass sich
ein einfaches Modell der Astrologie durchaus quantitativ
belegen liesse; "wir muessen nur wollen", wie die Gruppe
"Wir sind Helden" im Moment in den Hitparaden singt. Uebrigens,
ich bin geboren am 7. August 1966 um 4:12 morgens in
Zuerich (Schweiz); das ist an einem Sonntag morgen, oder
am Ende einer Samstagnacht im "Summer of Love", nur ein
paar Wochen nach der letzten Uranus-Pluto Konjunktion
in der Jungfrau.
Da ich mein Geburtsdatum schon auf englisch veroeffentlicht
habe und seither nicht mehr unter meinem richtigen Namen
Newsgroup Posts mache, kann ich mir es wohl auch hier
trotz meinem Mond im Widder erlauben, es offen zu legen,
auch da ich hier doch substanziell und konkret neue Ideen
zur Astrologie und mehr vorlege...
Da ich aus der Generation mit Pluto in der Jungfrau bin,
die noch nicht entscheidet, was wir notwendig "werden
wollen muessen", wird das wohl eher von den kommenden
Generationen (Pluto in den Herbstzeichen Waage, Skorpion,
und Schuetze) in den naechsten etwa 10-30 Jahren
entschieden werden. Ich halte es fuer wahrscheinlich,
dass in diesem Zeitraum die Astrologie wissenschaftlich
bewiesen wird, obwohl das werden eben andere entscheiden.
Jedenfalls ist es auch wichtig, sich trotz dem grossen
Wiederstand gegen experimentelle Bestaetigung, sich auch
der Gefahren bewusst zu sein, die eine zu ploetzliche
und naive Anwendung der Astrologie als Wissenschaft und
damit auch als Technologie auf alle Bereiche des Lebens
haben koennte. In dem Sinn sollte die noch verbleibende
Zeit wohl auch damit genutzt werden, die Konsequenzen
abzuschaetzen...
> Astrologie ist ein Kulturgut, eine von Menschen entwickelte
> Schicksals-Deutungssprache, abhängig von den Einstellungen, Erwartungen und
> Bedürfnissen der jeweiligen Kultur. Die Sterne sind jedenfalls nichts per se
> "Wirksames" (auch Transite nicht). Astrologie ist ein Werkzeug, ein zu einem
> bestimmten Zweck nützliches Instrument; andere Kulturen (Indien, Amerika,
> China) entwickelten eine andere, jeweils auf sie passende Astrologie.
Nach meinem Postulat, wuerde jeder Mensch konstant die
emotionalen Kraefte fuehlen, oder wie Jung es ausgedrueckt
hat, frei sein "das gerne zu machen, das ich machen muss".
Mit dem Rest stimme ich ueberein, mit den Qualifikationen
gemaess Oben.
> ** Wenn man über die naturwissenschaftliche "Objektivität" nachdenkt, merkt
> man bald, dass es sich dabei im Grunde auch nur um intersubjektive
> "Wahrheiten" handelt, d.h. um eine Verständigung der Wissenschaftler
> darüber, was "objektiv" sei bzw. dass ihre Apparate das Gewünschte
> tatsächlich messen.
Im Prinzip bin ich einverstanden. Allerdings ist es schwer
zu beurteilen, wieso die meisten Menschen der Annahme
zustimmen, dass fast alle Menschen eine Anzeigenadel eines
Messgeraetes gleich ablesen wuerden. Die Wissenschaft
versucht immerhin sich auf den minimalsten gemeinsamen
Nenner an Erfahrung (unter praktisch allen Menschen) plus
die Anerkennung der Logik abzustuetzen. Aber es bleibt
fundamental eine kollektive Einigung, das kann man nicht
wegdiskutieren.
Aehnlich ist es in der Mathematik, die auf ein paar
Axiomen oder Definitionen aufbaut, die so gewaehlt sind,
dass ihre Konsequenzen (d.h. Theoreme etc.) so werden,
wie man sie erwartet. Und man muss auch mit Goedels
Einschraenkungen leben, naemlich dass es in jedem
solchen mathematischen System Dinge gibt, die wahr oder
falsch sein koennen, und sich trotzdem im System weder
belegen noch wiederlegen lassen (das trifft auch fuer
die Mathematik als Ganzes zu). Hauptursache hier ist
das Problem der Luftzeichen sich selbst in ihre
objektiven Betrachtungen einzubeziehen. Einfachstes
Beispiel mit logischen Problemen sobald Selbstbezug:
"Dieser Satz hat fuenf Worte" (wahr); "Dieser Satz
hat nicht fuenf Worte" (Gegenteil vom ersten Satz,
aber auch wahr).
Nochmals meine postulierte Einteilung der Welt in
vier Schalen:
1 - Feuer - individuelle Vorstellung
2 - Luft - logische Konsequenzen
3 - Wasser - kollektive Gefuehle/Wuensche
4 - Erde - Realitaet
Astrologie beschaeftigt sich viel mit kollektiven
Wuenschen (Wasser), mit zwischenmenschlichen Problemen,
und enthaelt auch viel individuelle Vorstellung (Feuer),
obwohl man generell versucht das zu vermeiden.
Eine wissenschaftliche Theorie (in den exakten
Wissenschaften) ist Logik/Mathematik (Luft) basierend
auf Realitaet (Erde).
Das 4. Element ist unabhaengig von den Gedanken der
Menschen, koennte aber auch als kollektive Wuensche
in einem groesseren Sinn (d.h. die Natur als Ganzes
einschliessendes) betrachtet werden.
Damit sollte ich wohl schliessen, es ist schon so ein
sehr langer Post geworden.
delphi29@excite.com
Reflections - 70642
Hi there.
This is reflection 5 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
Since it is summer and holidays, I have prepared this
reflection already a week ago, as well as the one that
will follow two weeks from now - enjoy...
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
This time I did not toss any coins, but rather used
the number of the star HD 70642 that is about 94
light years away and was recently discovered to be
circled by a Jupiter-like planet (see recent thread
in this group). Somehow using a star (sun) seemed
appropriate for the middle of summer; and I think
the corresponding paragraph fits that too:
(Section 3.10 Astrological Ages)
> Note also that the discoveries presented here have yet
> to be quantitatively verified and, although I think
> that at the very least H14b together with the four basic
> pictures for the elements (fire, cloud, river, tree)
> in conjunction with H19 is true, some associative
> "conclusio*n*s" that I have made may turn out to be
> biased or even false.
This is related to hypothesis H19 (at the beginning
of section 3):
> H19 Ancient greek philosophy is based on language.
> If two objects share an adjective, there is believed
> to be a connection.
This has probably a lot to do with psychology, with
how information is stored in our brains. Let's take
an example, take the nouns "cloud", "snow", "grass"
and colors as adjectives: "white", "green" and "red".
Those can be written in a matrix, with an "X" if the
noun has the corresponding color:
cloud snow grass
white X X -
green - - X
red - - -
(I know, sometimes clouds can be red, but let me
get to these more special cases a bit later...)
Now in the above matrix, there is an association
between the nouns "cloud" and "snow", because they
are both "white". That is usually how astrologers
fit a myth, for example, to what a client tells.
Imagine, there was a star sign "snow leopard",
that would (among other things) be associated
with "snow". Imagine further that a client, with
planet X in "snow leopard" tells you about a dream
with lots of large, white clouds. Then you might
connect this to "snow" because both "clouds" and
"snow" are "white" and hence to the client's
planet X sign. Of course, you would not judge
things based on just one association, but rather
search for the best fit with most associations
to myths and other associations you have learned
with the "snow leopard" and with other signs.
In other words, you would be using a much bigger
matrix than the one above, but essentially still
a matrix. Now, every astrologer has his or her
own personal matrix, although they all share some
elements. Czech writer Milan Kundera calls this
"poetic memory". The meaning of a word like
"mother" or "dog" is very subjective and strongly
connected to the circumstances in which one has
encountered these words, and probably mostly
also with the circumstances of the first contact
(which gives it also an astrological connection).
Milan Kundera gives several examples in his maybe
best known book, "The Unbearable Lightness of
Being". You may have seen the movie, which caused
Kundera to write his next novel "The Immortality"
in such a way that it would be impossible to make
a movie out of it. I can understand this, but I
must also say that without having seen the movie, I
would never have bought the book and hence missed
quite a few very good things. His books are mostly
a mixture of novel accompanied by psychological
analysis, I guess mostly influenced by Jung.
I associate "associating" itself with Fire and Water.
Fire is visual imagination, where you imagine
a cloud with its color. In a visual picture, you
can see many things at once and compare them.
In purely logical thinking (Air), you have a
strict timely evolution "if a cloud is white and
snow is white, then there is a connection between
snow and clouds" - how much more direct is it to
imagine a sunny winter's day with white snow and
bright white clouds above it.
Water is about feelings, about relations to people.
A relation is a connection between two things, an
association. In that sense, I think that a lot in
astrology is about Fire and Water. In an exact
science, like physics, the physical theories are
mathematical constructions (logic, Air) based on
experiment (reality, Earth).
There is also the difference between a sceptic and
a good researcher in physics. The researcher spends
just as much time trying to find new and interesting
associations, as he spends on sceptically testing
them afterwards. A sceptic is typcially bound too
much to the Earth, is too much afraid to loose
contact to the ground; and from this fear, I think,
often also comes the aggression that sceptics often
show towards new ideas.
Well, maybe I can take away a bit of that fear, by
explaining how I do it, how I managed to think about
scientifically unverified phenomena like telepathy
or astrology without getting lost.
**************************************************
The trick is actually very simple: Whenever I hear
something, I remember the circumstances.
**************************************************
Say, I hear on TV that Virgo and Leo were once seen
as a single constellation. Stuff on TV is not always
fully trustworthy, so a sceptic would either have to
immediately verify that information from trusted
sources or discard it as worthless. I, in turn, can
use this information as is, and if I can combine it
with other pieces of information to find something
interesting, I only *then* go back and make sure that
my information is really trustworthy (with the risk
that sometimes I have to discard the whole new idea
because one of the building blocks was not a fact).
I am running out of space, so let me just quickly
keep my promise: A cloud can sometimes be red, but
then mostly near sunrise or sunset. In other words,
the assocation "cloud"-"red" is only correct if you
add a second noun, either "sunrise" or "sunset".
Maybe I can talk another time about the chances and
risks of trying to put the universal matrix of all
words into the computer and then trying to use the
computers to match associations (and why possibly
today's computers might not be able to do that well).
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Larry Swain" (l.c.swain@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> I'm certainly not dissing stellar parans, as I find them to be immensely
> useful. But astrology evolved from stellar astrology into horoscopic
> astrology, not the otjher way around. Parans, along with the Heliacal
> Rising and Setting Stars, give much more depth and quality to horoscopic,
> tropical astrology, but they do NOT imo supercede it!
Hard to tell where things come from and where they go.
Bernadette Brady is using 64 stellar parans (according
to the ASTRO LOGOS website - in her book she apparently
was only using 60, according to the table of contents).
Now, 64 = 8 x 8, which reminds of a chess board (Russia)
and the number of symbols in the I Ching (China), and
also of the fact that Uranus is the 8th planet. This
fits well with Australia's emphasis on the axis Aqu-Leo
(claimed 1770-08-22 for the crown, birthday 1788-01-26),
and also with the fact that it is an eastern continent
(as its name implies), but mostly inhabited by people
from the west. So there may be a fusion between east
and west in the running, with possibly even noticable
influence on astrology in the age of Aquarius, but,
of course, it is a bit early to judge that. I am sure
there will be quite a few more contenders for that...
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> My mother pulled out a pistol and popped my cat when I was 4 yrs old. If she
> had not been allowed to have that gun it would have never happened to me.
Excuse me if I intervene - do you know the birth
date of Texas ? Texas has always reminded me of a
young Leo that has not yet learned much compassion
with others. Apollon can kill or cure accurately
with his dreaded arrows, and in his youth he does
it also sometimes out of egoistic reasons, like
when he unfairly beat Marsyas in a music contest
(Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 21e-g).
I see the same symbols here, the cat (Leo), sudden
instinctive killing. Texas is probably about 200
years old, quite little compared to my home country,
Switzerland, which is more than 700 years old.
In the past, Swiss mercenaries were used all over
Europe by all kinds of countries. That ended in
when mercenaries at one battle refused to fight,
because there were mainly Swiss mercenaries on
both sides. Later on, Switzerland became important
in the founding of the Red Cross. In that sense,
Switzerland was also involved in the recent war in
Iraq, for example by restoring basic water supply
in Basrah early in the war, thus moderating the
effects of the war somewhat.
I have a semi-automatic gun from the Swiss army
with 24 shots, but they are sealed in a can, and
if I returned it opened, I would be in quite some
trouble. That puts a barrier in front of using
the gun, makes it more difficult to use it just
out of an instinctive impulse, but still people
get shot by this kind of gun. On the other hand,
if there was an actual invasion in Switzerland,
people would immediately be able to fight back.
I have no clear opinion about how much and in what
form to limit use of fire arms, but maybe the most
helpful thing would be individual evolution to
only consciously and moderately using fire arms.
(In Zurich, there is a sculpture of Charles the
Great, where he is sitting with his sword across
his knees. He does not look like he would use the
sword just out of anger, but if somebody really
attacked him, he could get up and would know how
to defend himself. In that sense, "Don't mess with
Texas" is maybe also a bit an expression of the
insecurity of a young man, Leo. In that sense,
strength maybe optimally lies rather in developing
the ability to use a fire arm, but more of often
than not, in not having to actually use it against
people, because the other side will know that too.)
Just my two cents (Venus in Leo),
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
Thanks a lot for the nice reply and the analysis.
Feels like it explains things sufficiently.
My abilities to analyze and remember lots of
details are quite limited, so I cannot compete
with professional astrologers, except sometimes
on a specific issue, if I invest lots of time
and energy. Doing that is also not what I think,
I should normally do. I see things maybe a bit
like the trick that the physicist Richard Feynman
described about how people manage to win money
in Las Vegas, even though the casinos take great
care that in all games the odds are against you:
You simply make bets with people who are playing
and thinking that they will win - then the odds
are in your favour. (It seems that there are
people who can make a living that way, or at
least there have been in 1960s or so).
In that sense, presenting a selective piece
of astrological analysis to somebody who does
not know much about astrology can have quite
a destructive effect if one is unlucky, but
when offering such impulses to professional
astrologers and counselors, there should usually
be little danger...
In that sense, here is my info about the history
of Switzerland and then one or two more general
thoughts that may be useful or maybe not so much:
I was using the mythological founding date of
August 1st, 1291. According to the legend (at
least the way I remember it), three people from
different states in the mountains in what is now
central Switzerland, met on the morning of one
of the first days of August in 1291 and put up 3
fingers each to swear to stand in unison against
Habsburg (That would put the sun and a few more
planets into Leo and the moon into Libra).
There is a written document of similar content
that is dated with "in the year of the Lord 1291
at the beginning of the month of August" (in a
recent post here, I had mistakenly remembered
this document to be from September 1291).
Anyway, here is the english translation of the
document: http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/schweiz/bundesbrief
And here is my recent post, which is maybe a
bit too much of artistic nature to be really
helpful in analysis (also Jupiter opp. Neptune):
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting
..google.com
(Sorry, my news program will probably split that
into two lines; usually I post through google
where this does not happen, but since a few days,
groups.google.com refuses to post to aat...)
In some sense there are similarities between
Switzerland and the USA. Switzerland managed to
gain quite a bit of independence, initially by
wars, from the German Empire, and to establish
some early democratic structures, although, being
a relatively small country, it remained officially
part of the German Empire until, I guess, the
19th century.
One more thing about fire arms: I think the problem
is similar to terrorism, only on a smaller scale.
It is the problem that, because of technology, an
individual or a small group can do lots of damage
with relatively little effort. Astrologically,
that might be connected to the fire-air axes, to
finding a balance between impulse and reason.
delphi29@excite.com
Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> in article delphi29-5113C1.09562702082003@news.bluewin.ch, Delphi Twentine
> at delphi29@excite.com wrote on 8/2/03 3:10 AM:
>
> > Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> >> My mother pulled out a pistol and popped my cat when I was 4 yrs old. If
> >> she
> >> had not been allowed to have that gun it would have never happened to me.
> >
> > Excuse me if I intervene - do you know the birth
> > date of Texas ?
>
> December 29th, 1845.
>
> > Texas has always reminded me of a
> > young Leo that has not yet learned much compassion
> > with others. Apollon can kill or cure accurately
> > with his dreaded arrows, and in his youth he does
> > it also sometimes out of egoistic reasons, like
> > when he unfairly beat Marsyas in a music contest
> > (Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 21e-g).
>
> My mother was a Leo with her Pluto at 0 Cancer on my Saturn at 1 Cancer. She
> had Mars conjunct Saturn in Gemini.
>
> Texas has Sun in Capricorn opp my Venus and it has a Moon in Capricorn. Mars
> is conjunct Uranus in Aries, so never expect to see any gun prohibition
> here. It is all tied to the ego and rash actions.
>
> Austin is also a Capricorn with Moon conjunct my Moon at 5 Libra. So this
> is where I make my home (Moon).
>
> >
> > I see the same symbols here, the cat (Leo), sudden
> > instinctive killing. Texas is probably about 200
> > years old, quite little compared to my home country,
> > Switzerland, which is more than 700 years old.
>
> Before the time of Christ I read. But with the Swiss confederation, it is
> about the same age as Texas. Correct?
>
> Switzerland is a Virgo with a Pisces Moon and Venus conjunct Mars in Libra.
> September 12, 1848. Is this the birth data that you use?
>
> > In the past, Swiss mercenaries were used all over
> > Europe by all kinds of countries. That ended in
> > when mercenaries at one battle refused to fight,
> > because there were mainly Swiss mercenaries on
> > both sides. Later on, Switzerland became important
> > in the founding of the Red Cross. In that sense,
> > Switzerland was also involved in the recent war in
> > Iraq, for example by restoring basic water supply
> > in Basrah early in the war, thus moderating the
> > effects of the war somewhat.
> >
> > I have a semi-automatic gun from the Swiss army
> > with 24 shots, but they are sealed in a can, and
> > if I returned it opened, I would be in quite some
> > trouble. That puts a barrier in front of using
> > the gun, makes it more difficult to use it just
> > out of an instinctive impulse, but still people
> > get shot by this kind of gun. On the other hand,
> > if there was an actual invasion in Switzerland,
> > people would immediately be able to fight back.
>
> Impulse is the real issue and the Mars conjunct Uranus in Aries for the
> Texas chart is no small problem in my estimation.
>
> Those Swiss are so smart. I loved visiting there. So beautiful, so clean, so
> orderly and so uh... civilized. :) Just like a Virgo with a Pisces Moon. ;)
>
> >
> > I have no clear opinion about how much and in what
> > form to limit use of fire arms, but maybe the most
> > helpful thing would be individual evolution to
> > only consciously and moderately using fire arms.
> > (In Zurich, there is a sculpture of Charles the
> > Great, where he is sitting with his sword across
> > his knees. He does not look like he would use the
> > sword just out of anger, but if somebody really
> > attacked him, he could get up and would know how
> > to defend himself. In that sense, "Don't mess with
> > Texas" is maybe also a bit an expression of the
> > insecurity of a young man, Leo. In that sense,
> > strength maybe optimally lies rather in developing
> > the ability to use a fire arm, but more of often
> > than not, in not having to actually use it against
> > people, because the other side will know that too.)
>
> Well I think the Mars conjunct Uranus in Aries says it all with a Capricorn
> Sun and Moon. Just brimming with warmth and compassion. :I No, "Do Not Mess
> with Texas" or anybody in Texas because you might get a bullet as evidenced
> last week with the poor guy whose dogs barked too much.
>
> There are some days when I think this still is the wild west. Combine the
> number of guns in the hands of the mentally compromised, add in some road
> rage in the summer, and woweee...!!! Hot time in the old town!
>
> Then there is Austin's Venus conjunct Jupiter in Scorpio. :) And Mars
> conjunct Neptune in Aquarius. "Keep Austin Weird" is the latest catch phrase
> and bumper sticker. :) I don't think they have to worry. It will STAY weird.
>
> >
> > Just my two cents (Venus in Leo),
>
> Interesting viewpoint and welcome to hear how those folks outside our
> borders view our gun issues. I read that they passed the gun laws in NY
> state because the police said they were all going to quit unless something
> was done to keep the bad guys from having bigger and better weapons than
> them.
>
> A recent chat with a local sheriff's deputy here in my neighborhood said
> that he would feel a lot safer doing his job if every wacko in this town did
> NOT have a gun.
>
> >
> > delphi29@excite.com
> > --
> > keyword: exactphilosophy
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Will have to check out the problem with google groups...thanks! SES
John Roth (newsgroups@jhrothjr.com) wrote:
> More interesting is a paper, hot off the presses (I saw the note
> on Slashdot) that points out that we can't know the **exact** location
> of anything in time or space, an observation that has rather interesting
> consequences, and is much more profound than the Heisenberg Uncertainty
> Principle (which sets limits on the joint certainty in time and space, and
> only
> applies at very small time and distance scales.)
>
> From this, the author actually solves Zeno's Paradox!
>
> http://science.slashdot.org/science/03/08/03/029213.shtml?tid=134
>
> Pretty strange stuff going on in physics these days...
Thanks a lot for the hint. I was so bold to post a
question about the referenced scientific paper to
sci.physics.research. With the moon at what I call
the "decision point", between Libra and Scorpio,
I am both quite suspicious and cautiously optimistic.
Things that make me suspicious: The author, Peter
Lynds (27) from Wellington, seems to be working as
a broadcasting instructor. Could this be a practical
demonstration of how to use the media efficiently ?
But, of course, a scientific paper should not at all
be judged by the profession of its author, but only
by its content. Since it seems to make the most
specific predictions in some more "exotic" and more
recent areas of modern physics, it appears like a
good idea to let people at sci.physics.research
give their opinion. Some info about the newsgroup:
It is moderated and mainly visited by researchers
(that also shows in relatively slow moderation, I
guess mostly during regular work hours of the
moderators, so expect my post to appear sometime
today (US), but maybe even later). The first post
to the group appeared 1993-02-17 at 13:14:29 PST:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=16FEB199314180608%40csa2.lbl.gov
(according to the above message ID, it was posted
about a day earlier, from the Lawrence Berkley
National Laboratory (CA))
About fate: My next reflection, which I wrote two
weeks ago and which will appear next monday, also
deals with some aspects of fate, although not in
a very analytical manner. There are some quite
specific ideas about the "practical aspects" of
fate in my discoveries document, in fact those
where the ones that got me into astrology in the
first place. When the coins will point there, I
will probably reflect about them here...
(As maybe expected, they leave practically all
of the philosophical questions open).
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
Sharyn (sharyn721@adelphia.not) wrote:
> "Richard Nolle" <rnolle@astropro.com> wrote in message
> news:3F2E6A67.B5D98418@astropro.com...
> > Larry Swain wrote:
> [...] Maybe semantics is destiny
> > . . .
> >
> heh...
>
> "Do you see that kitten chasing so prettily her own tail? If you could look
> with her eyes, you might see her surrounded with hundreds of figures
> performing complex frames, with tragic and comic issues, long conversations,
> many characters, many ups and downs of fate." -Emerson
Wow! To me that's the best description so far;
and it looks like Pete P was head on again...
(I you want to know why, read on. But maybe that
destroys the beauty of the picture too much, so
feel also free to skip the next paragraph.)
The sun* goes in a circle, seen from earth it
appears to move on its own, at a constant pace.
What sense could that make, looks like going
in circles without purpose. But on the circle,
there is the whole world, all the 12 signs of
the zodiac, and at every turn the planets are
at different spots, so it never becomes boring,
even if some events feel similar. Sometimes,
there are even new planets...
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
* sun-leo-cat
doovi@webtv.net (doovinator) wrote:
> Well, a year in the canoe club doesn't really make me a "military guy",
> I don't think; I'm referring to people like me who've had military
> training, but not necessarily a military career. I doubt many would be
> seriously opposed to current gun laws.
>
> DJ
I don't know how it is in the US. I can only speak
from my personal experience (in Switzerland, it is
still obligatory to go to the military). I have
never been in a war, but I have thrown maybe 50
life hand grenades in my life, mostly in a situation
of combat, with other people around me, with loaded
fire arms and other hand grenades. You have to be
very careful then that no accident occurs, you have
to know the moves by heart. Just one guy who is not
careful and forgets to secure his weapon might kill
several others. I remember a situation in which I
was standing close to a guy who was just not very
good at it and making a grenade sharp. I was on the
leap to get the grenade in case he would accidentally
drop it, so that I could throw out of range myself.
delphi29@excite.com
[I had to split up my original post, because it
was too long; now it is 4 parts (see subject)]
Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> in article delphi29-5113C1.09562702082003@news.bluewin.ch, Delphi Twentine
> at delphi29@excite.com wrote on 8/2/03 3:10 AM:
>
> > Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
> >> My mother pulled out a pistol and popped my cat when I was 4 yrs old. If she
> >> had not been allowed to have that gun it would have never happened to me.
> >
> > Excuse me if I intervene - do you know the birth
> > date of Texas ?
>
> December 29th, 1845.
Do you know the time ?
I could not find it on the web.
I have Pluto transiting my natal moon at the
moment (exact in a few days). So, with trines
being particularly fated but also harmonic,
I seem to have little choice, although that
is somehow hardly noticable by me.
Texas is the "lone star" state. If I look at
the chart, the only candidate for that is
the moon in Capricorn. If I cast the chart
for noon local time in Austin, the moon is
the only planet with only a single aspect,
namely a square to Pluto in Aries. All in all,
not a cosy place for the moon. Plus it would
then also be in opposition to its mother's
sun, the sun of the USA in the middle of
Cancer.
Just a year after Texas had joined the US,
the US was at war, with Mexico. Just as a war
started about a year after the 43th president
of the USA came into office. The number 43
symbolizes a new iteration in the cycle, a new
start, a redefinition - because 42 is 6 x 7,
symbolizes the 6 axes (opportunities) that had
been tried for each of the 7 planets/gods.
I think Texas most directly symbolizes most
directly the deep fears of the US to break apart,
because the US is such a melting pot of so many
different influences. I think that also showed
in the aftermath of September 11. The USA is
producing so many great and exciting things
every year. But because the stuff is so good,
it is exported to the whole world. Thus, it
no longer defines America, because the stuff
then becomes global. So there is a continuous
loss of identity that has to be balanced by
constant reinvention and recreation of the
country.
Why does that concern me as a Swiss citizen ?
The events in the US during the previous Saturn
vs. Pluto oppositions have had almost as much
impact here as they have in the US. Global TV
brought events right into our homes, at least
initially, essentially unfiltered. So there is
some of the same lack of protection felt here too.
(continued...)
(part 2)
But what maybe made most of the difference, was
that the American Dream, which exists outside of
the US just like inside it, was challenged. I
remember Tom Brokaw on Larry King Live, when he
told about a visit he had made to Iraq (that was
before 9/11). He talked about a guy he had talked
to there. First the guy talked about the ennemy
USA, the usual stuff, but then also part of the
dream came through: He asked Tom Brokaw if he
knew the widdow of a famous country singer, sorry
I cannot recall the name at the moment. The guy
asked Tom Brokaw to tell the widdow his compassion
and also to tell her that he loves his music.
In everybody in the world, there is such a part
of the American Dream, a part of american culture
that is loved. (Don't take away my Ketchup - And
I am serious about that.)
My special link to the US comes maybe from the
fact that my parents once in the sixties, a bit
before the Saturn-Pluto oppositions of that time
immigrated into the US. First they went on a world
trip, leading east, from Greece to Egypt to Japan,
Hawaii and then for a few months to Hollywood,
where a friend of them lived. They liked it there
very much, but actually they were heading for
Boston, were my father was to study at Harvard
(he is an architect (yes, matrix)). I guess for
astrologers it must be clear that one place is
not like the other. They did not like it much
there and after just a few months they returned
to Switzerland and had me. That is probably why my
birth chart (1966-08-07 4:12 Zurich 3:12 UTC)
shows quite a few similarities with the US:
Jupiter plus Venus in Cancer, retrograde Mercury.
In the matrix movies, the Oracle tells Neo at one
point that he "already made the decision, that he
is only trying to understand why now". I don't
know how many of our decisions are made by ourselves.
But it also often seems to me, that much of our
lives consists of understanding what is happening,
rather than defining it. At least that seems to be
true for our consciousness, but maybe that is more
true for me or the US with a retrograde Mercury.
Yesterday I got a parking fine of 40 Swiss Francs
for parking a bit too long (15 min past 2.5 hours).
In US dollars, that would be about 29.6, close to
the Saturn cycle in years. So, I interpret that as
that the crone (mother/texas moon) got its share.
Actually, when I read the small print, I saw that
it was not actually a fine, it was not issued by
the police, but by the maintainers of the parking
lot. I was for "not paying sufficient parking fees
or not following the parking order" and it was a
"parking fee plus a compensation for the efforts"
of the person/organisation who checks that parking
is in order. I have the moon in Aries.
In the movie eXistenZ by David Cronenberg, there
is a scene in which the young hero says something
that he had not consciously intended to say. The
girl on his side tells him (they are in a virtual
video game) that sometimes some people just have
to say some things, so that the story can move on.
So true.
(continued...)
(part 3)
What scared me most during the time before the war
in Iraq, was that I was not sure where things were
heading. I was afraid that the US might have gone
crazy, that more and more wars would escalate,
maybe first only in the Middle East, but maybe then
even escalating to a World War. Only when the
statue in Bagdad fell and I could also feel the
relief, I started to understand what was happening.
What people in the Middle East were missing most
was a perspective. You had either the old regimes
with more or less dictators (but very little of
democracy and freedom in any case), or you had the
option of fundamentalist religion, which has lead
to the 9/11 attacks. Before that moment, I could
not understand why it would make sense to invade
a country that, although ruled by a very cruel
dictator (yes, I have seen what his former girlfriend
could tell, about how she had the opportunity to
come with him or have her husband killed, about
Saddam and his brothers torturing people and then
afterwards watching torture movies, and more...),
but he also admired Stalin, and so prepared the
country in some sense for modernity, built schools,
reduced older structures.
At the place where the statue of Saddam stood, there
is now a statue by local artists. It did not look
very beautiful in my eyes, but nobody of the people
who "invaded" the country told them that they would
not be allowed to do this. I think the country might
really be ready for a more pluralist society, that
will still essentially conserve their heritage. In
that sense, it is probably a real alternative and
will probably in the long run help to avoid terror.
In greek mythology, Cancer got its place in the sky
when a crab bit Heracles in the foot while he was
fighting the Hydra in the swamps. On a large scale,
as sad as it is on the personal scale, 9/11 was a
bite into the foot of America. Hera is "protectress",
and Heracles is "glory of Hera". The US is the son,
the hero, whereas Hera is the mother, is the world.
All the countries in the world have sent people of
their countries to immigrate into the USA. The
idea behind it is, it seems to me, to breed the
Age of Aquarius, a "new world order" in which
conflicts are ultimately solved more reasonably
and less bloody. If you compare the number of people
killed related to 9/11 and afterwards, to what
happened in WWII, I am very happy that this was on
a global scale mostly, as expressed at the Oscars,
a "Virtual War" (in the sense in which it affected
the large majority of people, of course for some
people that was literally different).
A more ancient symbol for Cancer is the scarab and
the dung ball it is rolling and out of which new
life emerges (actually the scarab lays its eggs
into the dung ball). Similarly, many emigrants were
considered undesired in their original countries.
If you consider the different reasons that have led
to the war in Iraq, many of them seem not able to
convince a majority of people even within the US
(if you consider each reason on its own, say
economic (oil etc.) interests, religiously rather
fundamentalist ideas, etc.).
From the outside, if one hears the argumentation,
it is often not so easy to understand why all that
might turn out good in the end, how these different
forces that all by themselves would probably not
be helpful, can make things better, can relieve
the mother of its burdens. If one is not within
the melting pot, like me, one does not *feel* what
people feel inside the US, so judging things is
not always easy. But I am relieved.
Was I able to chose to write or not to write what
I just wrote ? There are no physical forces that
make me write this, but I do not feel like I have
much of a choice this time, strange as it is. But
maybe I could add a few twists here and there
(Liz Greene associates free will also with Hermes,
the planet Mercury that constantly goes back and
forth around the sun; see her interview for the
Mountain Astrologer in August 2001, which is
reproduced at http://www.astro.com).
I wanted also to say something about France and the
USA should (in my opinion) maybe get a bit closer
together again, since they are after all "brothers"
through their almost simultaneous modern revolutions.
But I could not include it above, could not weave it
in, so maybe it is more my personal wish, than what
is spoken at the moment.
(continued...)
(part 4)
Last word about the crone: Yesterday I also read
the following in Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths"
about Pan (Capricorn/Saturn): "The Egyptian Thamus
apparently misheard the ceremonial lament 'Thamus
Pan-megas Tethnece' ('The all-great Tammuz is
dead!') for the message: 'Thamus, Great Pan is
dead!' At any rate, Plutarch [...] believed and
published it; yet when Pausanias made his tour of
Greece [...], he found Pan's shrines , altars,
sacred caves , and sacred mountains still much
frequented."
So, I guess this time that was my US$ 29.6;
thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Reflections - 124777
Hi there.
This is reflection 6 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
This time the coins pointed almost to the end of the
document, HHHH'TTHH'HTHH'THTT'H = 124777, which points
to the last sentence in Appendix C:
> One more twist on reality: Although the immediate
> intrinsic meaning of the improvised acknowledgement
> was consciously intentional, the one in* *the
> sentence introducing it was not...
This relates to the following passage earlier on:
> Finally, here is a less analytical, improvised acknowledgement:
> All said, the reader often seems to unconsciously, beadfully
> frown right on mere security; intuitively, mindful of niobic,
> aquaintant wiring of really long drops, brought yet putting a
> vane link, illusive, nearly adept.
> (21 April 2001, 15:23, 15 min, snow outside)
This will be a little bit about the nature of Pluto
and fate, but on a somewhat lighter note, to the degree
that this is possible...
Between Christmas and New Year 2000, I discovered the
short story "The Vane Sisters" by Vladimir Nabokov by
chance (Mars had just about entered Scorpio). The story
is apparently available on some russian websites, but
I am not going to indicate the links here, because it
may not be legal to read the story there, at least not
from all countries. The story is, of course, also
available in book form, along with other short stories
by Vladimir Nabokov:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679729976
Let me summarize the related part of the story
(in a rather dry style, as not to spoil too much;
if you prefer, read the whole story first - it is
only about 5000 words - and then come back here):
The narrator goes for a walk on a sunny winter's day.
He observes water drops falling from icicles, which
distracts him so much that he forgets about time and
has to have dinner at a restaurant in a different part
of town than usual. After dinner, he walks out and is
again distracted, this time by a parking meter:
"The lean ghost, the elongated umbra cast by a parking
meter upon some damp snow, had a strange ruddy tinge;
this I made out to be due to the tawny red light of the
restaurant sign above the sidewalk; and it was then--
as I loitered there, wondering rather wearily if in the
course of my return tramp I might be lucky enough to
find the same in neon blue."
A car stops and D. gets out, who had by chance been
driving through that town and recognized the narrator.
They exchange a few words and D. mentions that Cynthia
Vane has died a week ago. In the course of the story,
the narrator remembers the seances that he attained
with Cynthia and also the suicide of her younger sister,
Sybil, who had been a student of the narrator. The
story ends with the following paragraph:
> I could isolate, consciously, little. Everything seemed
> blurred, yellow-clouded, yielding nothing tangible. Her
> inept acrostics, maudlin evasions, theopathies-- every
> recollection formed ripples of mysterious meaning.
> Everything seemed yellowly blurred, illusive, lost.
If you only read the first letter of each paragraph,
you get: "Icicles by cynthia, meter from me, Sybil".
Similarly, if you do the same with my improvised
acknowledgement, you get a direct acknowledgement to
the two czech sisters, which I think they deserve.
Both of them have hard sun-Pluto aspects in their
birth charts (opposition resp. incoming square).
Fate or just imagination ? Hard to prove, but it is
maybe important to note that Einstein donated the
money from his Nobel Prize to his first wife, Mileva
Maric -- although this was apparently part of their
divorce agreement. The issue remains controversial,
but it is maybe worth noting that "Pluto" means
"wealth" (Robert Graves in "The Greek Myths").
A contribution does not necessarily have to be in
form of active, conscious (i.e. male) work, it can
also be more passive, unconscious, collective, i.e.
female in the sense also of a muse.
(If you speak german, you might be interested in the
book by retired mathematician Desanka Trbuhovic-Gjuric
"Im Schatten Albert Einsteins: Das tragische Leben der
Mileva Einstein-Maric" (Paul Haupt, Bern, 1993). It
appears that the book has never been translated to
english. Mileva Maric was born 1875-12-19 in Titel,
which was then in Hungary and is now in Serbia. As a
sagittarian theme, she was born with a dislocated hip,
but nobody noticed until she started to walk; so she
limped all of her life...)
The description of "world" as "wiring of really long
drops" fits quite well, even if I had no conscious
intention to do so. It reminds of the watery nature
of fate, of the fabric of fate that is composed of
the individual threads of life that the fates try
to sort, arrange and also cut (when necessary).
The other descriptions fit quite well too, including
the last one, with my experience of the Leo-Pisces
sun-sun quincunx, but maybe that is a little bit too
pessimistic, caused also by other circumstances.
I could mention two more interesting aspects/events
that relate my discoveries to fate and Pluto, but
maybe not now in the middle of summer; this appears
to be more a theme for late summer and autumn.
Before I forget, I have yet to explain the original
sentence: If you consider only the first letters in
the introduction to the improvised acknowledgement,
you get "F,hialaia", which could be read almost as
"Hi Alain". Of course, this could all just have come
out of my personal unconscious, not really from any
of these two girls, but then again...
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Epilogue
There is a very interesting epilogue to the
above story, which is also connected to quite
a few recent events in this newsgroup.
Let me start with my basic hypothesis in my
discoveries document, namely that people can
feel each other across large distances.
(Hint in case a physicist is reading this:
Forces can fundamentally not be shielded,
they can only cancel, which, at microscopic
level, possibly related to the measurement
problem, may not always happen.)
That would entail a form of telepathy, but in
my experience only in a somewhat restricted
sense, namely that you can ask questions and
get a positive ("rather yes") or a negative
("rather no") feeling back. So, through that
method, I had "asked" the second girl in the
acknowledgment, Pavlina, about her birth time.
The "answer" (given maybe two years ago), was
iteratively 10:15 Ostrava = 09:15 UTC.
Here it comes: On August 4th, I got the parking
"fine" that I mentioned in a recent post, just
four hours before a transit by Saturn across her
natal moon in Aries, which is quite lonely in
Aries, at a weak conjunction to my natal moon.
So there we have the same themes: lonely moon,
like possibly Texas, Saturn, and, in case you have
not noticed yet: A parking meter, the same symbol
for time and money (Saturn/Capricorn), that
Nabokov had used in his story.
I guess a transit of Pluto at a trine, as it is
currently with my natal moon, is particularly
fated, and hence a very good way to find out
what fate has decided. Scientifically, I can
draw no conclusions, but for me personally, it
looks as follows (until proven otherwise):
I will always feel her in my life, although
somehow from her side it seems not possible
that we could get really together. Possibly
there are physiological reasons that make the
connection practically unbreakable, irreversible
changes in the brain that can only happen at a
relatively young age, maybe a bit like the young
ducks who get fixated on the first being they
see and which becomes the mother for them. Since
the feeling has somewhat weakened now, after the
recent Saturn-Pluto oppositions (and since I
could always also feel close friends and family
when something emotionally important happened to
them) that is probably also not going to stand
in the way of a new relationship.
But back to the general questions. Since people
can feel each other, their thoughts and actions
become mutually dependent. In that sense, people
are free to physically do anything, but due to
the emotional feedback of others, they will not
do anything for a long time that does not fit in
with the collective's needs and plans.
Astrology is a such a scheme, it contains ages
of knowledge of nature. And it ensures a well
balanced diversity of people. Any problem will
be tackled differently by different people and
astrology ensures that all possible ways will
be tried with the same probability.
Sometimes it can be necessary for an individual
to become drunk, sometimes that can help. Some
brain cells die each time that somebody is drunk.
On a larger level, sometimes people collectively
(and unconsciously, of course) decide that some
things have to go, some beliefs and maybe even
some people, in the collective interest. That is
essentially how I view fate from the practical
point of view. (The fundamental question of free
will remains, of course, unanswered).
In summary, one can say that astrology is similar
to the Placebo Effect -- only that unconsciously
*everybody* believes in astrology, and in many
more things that have grown from ancient times.
One more thing about me (it's my birthday today,
sun in Leo): I feel a bit like the USA that have
to go to unfriendly places in the wide world,
but always trying to find the best way to get
back home as quickly as possible. I have little
interest in politics or in worldly fame. I like
to think about fundamental and philosophical
questions and otherwise prefer to have a normal
life, with a few good friends, and I would also
like to have a real girlfriend, then eventually
get married (or not) and also have children. After
a few years with lots of hard work, with Pluto
in transit at a square to my natal Pluto and
Uranus and at a trine to my natal moon, and after
the recent Saturn-Pluto and Jupiter-Neptune
oppositions, I have fate up to here [holding my
hand horizontally just above eye level].
I will mainly restrict myself on usenet to my
reflections every two weeks (they will, I guess,
in some form automatically be related to what is
going on here, anyway). And I will prepare as a
hobby a document called "easy to use astrology",
that will explain my major discoveries in a way
that is generally accessible and useful for some
minor problems at home or at work, also by adding
lots of illustrations to explain abstract concepts.
I will publish it in a few years, probably first
for free on the internet and later, if people
like it, as a book.
This time it will stick. And thanks a lot to Texas
for the opportunity to "mess" with it. Overall, I
find this newsgroup a very friendly place in usenet.
So far, nobody has been shot in usenet, anyway. :)
delphi29@excite.com
(Alain Stalder)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29
Sharyn (sharyn721@adelphia.not) wrote:
> Yes, interesting point he brings up about Sun and Saturn perhaps being the
> two sides of the coin: free will and fate.
Hmm. Head and tail. And the tail side contains
the value of the coin. Two-faced Janus, the
Roman god of the month January. Hermes, usually
the father of Pan, and apparently often with
Apollon in mythology. Seems to fit well.
delphi29@excite.com
> Anyway, we were not very loved to begin with in many areas of the world and
> this sort of personality just tosses fuel on the fires.
>
> Best -- LL
I am not so sure about Texas not being loved in
the world. There is no water in the Texas chart,
so judging other's feelings is not so much what
Texas is best at. According to Texas' chart,
the state would be somewhat at odds with its
home country. In that sense it is interesting
that "W" has his sun conjunct the sun of the US.
That shows, in my opinion, also in the way in
which he handled the tough times after 9/11,
namely by going by his gut feeling, maybe also
a bit because he is a bit less gifted in a few
areas than the average US president.
Perception of others is relative. I, for my part,
with the moon in Aries at the MC, like immediate,
direct replies (as long as they are not in form
of a bullet), because they are always honest.
Somebody with screen name "Uncle Al" replied as
one of the first to my initial posts about my
discoveries to sci.physics in June 2002. He called
it a "540k pdf of unjustifiable, boring crap".
Although that reply disturbed me, I also liked that
it was direct. I don't know if he is from Texas,
but the term "uncle" maybe relates him to the other
texan posting here, Tante Lina ("Tante" is the
german word for "aunt"). A screen name has a big
influence on public reception; with a paternal
name like "uncle" or "aunt" in it, the message is
unavoidably also a bit "I am older and more
experienced than you. You have more to learn from
me than I have to learn from you." Well, maybe in
some sense the US has to learn a bit from Texas,
namely the properties of Texas that are not much
found otherwise in the US.
I know the problems are probably a bit more complex
than what I wrote above and I can recognize all of
what you wrote to some degree. The US and Texas both
have quite a bit of Capricorn in their charts. That
often leads to situations that are difficult to judge
from the facts, including many conspiracy theories.
Sometimes they may be true, but at least in the case
of 9/11, I think a conspiracy by the government can
be excluded, for the following simple reason: If the
government could pull off such a complex fake attack,
why then did they not manage to fake a smoking gun
(say a barrel of chemical weapons) in Iraq ? So, at
least in that sense, I think people were honest.
Water signs (like the US, Cancer) usually go by what
they feel, and only afterwards look for possible
logical explanations, and sometimes they consciously
chose a reason that later turns out to have been
false or at least biased or exaggerated.
Al Capone was brought to prison officially for tax
evasion. But that was not because the government
was increasingly prosecuting tax evasion. As far as
I know, it was because the government, in the US'
aquarian way, had concluded that he was obviously a
gangster and then had tried to find a way to get him.
Note that the above is not exclusive with me not
agreeing on many issues with the current government.
In November/December 2000, I was on holidays in
Florida, right when people were recounting ballots.
Before that, still in Switzerland, I had made a bet
with one of the people I went to the USA with. He
bet on Bush, I bet on Gore becoming president.
Retrograde Mercury was an important astrological
factor in that election. In greek mythology, Hermes
(Mercury) at one time steals 50 cattle from Apollon.
Apollon is angry at first, but in the end happily
trades his cattle for a lyre that Hermes had made.
Apollon evolves from artisan to artist, from Aries
to Sagittarius. My sun is in Leo, the other guy's
is in Gemini, and the bet was about a large US
steak -- a piece of cattle.
delphi29@excite.com
Libralove (Libralove@austin.rr.com) wrote:
[...]
> David,
>
> Mythology is powerful stuff. I just bought, "Wisdom of the Mythtellers" by
> Sean Kane, recommended by B. Brady.
>
> These posts of yours are all very interesting and represent how many in the
> saner and more civilized foreign countries view us here, although your views
> are more polite and kind than many others.
>
> Firstly, our present problem here in the US as I see it, is although Bush
> was born in New Haven, CT, he is very much a Texan in every sense of the
> word. Read Capricorn Sun and Mars conjunct Uranus. He is a modern day, wild
> west cowboy with a Leo rising and a handgun in his pocket (Pluto in the
> 1st). He was governor when they passed the law that legalized handguns in
> this state. Add that to the fact that he DID NOT receive the majority vote
> in a country where the "majority is supposed to rule". So to some, that in
> an of it self seems hypocritical to a true democracy.
>
> The family had homes in Houston and Odessa, TX during his childhood and he
> now considers his residence to be in Texas (probably partly due to the lack
> of state income tax), but also because he is a gun toting, not very
> intellectual (read "smart"), cedar chopping, stereo-typical, seemingly macho
> Texas male, IMO.
>
> He carries all the swagger, the bravado and the lack of impulse control that
> I see frequently in the overall male culture of this state. The problem with
> that is, any civilized country will frown on many of those attributes, or
> maybe I should more precisely call them personality defects to a different
> kind of man.
>
> Anyway, we were not very loved to begin with in many areas of the world and
> this sort of personality just tosses fuel on the fires.
>
> Best -- LL
The Fifth Element
Fate and luck. When I woke up this morning, what
feels to me the crucial idea for understanding
astrological houses came to my mind: Of course,
the 5th house and Leo are related, but the 5th
house is, as its name specifies, essentially
related to the number 5.
Of course, Leo is also connected to the same
number, but just as Leo is the 5th sign of the
year, it is the 2nd sign of the summer, the
first adult sign, the 3rd male sign, and it is
connected to the lion and to the sun and then
to various myths. Although all of these links
also exist to some degree for the fifth house,
for the house, the association with the number
5 seems obviously most prominent, strongest.
This is not the first time an idea emerges sort
of as a reward by fate for hard and deep work
for me. Thanks everybody for providing the ground,
the melting pot for this new idea. I interpret
the fact that I have had this idea as a sign
that it is now allowed also to gently explore
its consequences. Attributing a single inventor
to an idea is a difficult thing anyway -- with my
retrograde Mercury at the end of the 12th house,
and with my sun at an incoming square to Neptune,
it is sort of my task to retrieve/receive some
gifts from the collective when OKed from there,
by Hades/Pluto/Fate.
So, the opportunity is there for everyone. Let
me just indicate two leads, for anybody free to
follow or ignore:
Around the time of the release of the reloaded
matrix, there was a discussion here about the
8th house. I then accidentally got to Herakles'
eighth labour. It seemed to me then (by feeling,
not by analysis) to fit better with the 8th
house than with Scorpio, although certainly
related to both to some degree.
Side remark about the number 8: I can also see
a clear connection to the nodes, because just
like the two nodes, the number 8 is two gates,
mouth and anus, connected by that vegetative,
lunar tube through our bodies. The number for
infinity is a horizontal 8, which reminds me
of the constellation of Pisces, which Robert
Hand, if I remember correctly, relates also to
East and West in his essay about the "Age and
Constellation of Pisces". In that respect, it
is maybe not astonishing that Japanes Smileys
are the other way round. The basic smiley is
(^_^), a blushing one is (*^_^*); more here:
http://club.pep.ne.jp/~hiroette/en/facemarks.
Finally, note that the glyph for the sign Leo
looks almost identical to the one for the
northern node...
My second hint is Robert Hand's book about
Symbols in Astrology. I only took a very quick
glance at it once, initially liked it and then
not so much any more. It feels to me now, that
there is are quite some leads there, as usual.
Could maybe free will be connected also to the
fifth element that transcends the other four ?
(say via 5th house - Leo - sun)
Thanks everybody again :),
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote:
> Could maybe free will be connected also to the
> fifth element that transcends the other four ?
> (say via 5th house - Leo - sun)
In contemporary astrology, planets are usually
listed in the order sun, moon, Mercury, Venus,
Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. In the back of my mind
I think I have quite recently heard or read
that in antiquity the usual order was slightly
different, Mercury came after Venus and Mars.
I tried to verify that on the web, but without
success. Anyway, if it was so, Mercury would be
associated with 5 too, fitting well with recent
ideas here, and also with the fact that the 5th
house is commonly associated with children.
delphi29@excite.com
The moon is still in Sagittarius, out of range
of Pluto now, so some freely associated stuff:
1 - fire - machine with fiery red eyes
2 - air - two machines, one old, other made
of liquid metal (mercury/Hermes)
3 - water - female machine, mixture of two
previous ones (hard+soft)
4 - earth - Governator. reality. different.
5 - ether - Presidator ? For that he would have
to really transcend reality, because
he would have to be born in the USA;
possible ways: annex Austria, make it
a state of the USA; make the house he
was born in an US embassy (US soil);
clone; change history...
* 1947-07-30 04:10 Graz (Austria), 02:10 UTC
Source: http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0002083.htm
delphi29@excite.com
houses, number = center of associations,
direct consequence of H19, date 08.08,
8x8=64, matrix, wei chi, I ching, parans, pisces
Paul Adrien Maurice Dirac, 1902-08-08,
Dirac Equation also direct logical consequence
(Schroedinger Equation, special relativity),
idea for path integrals => Feynman (=> Dirac
memorial lecture, virtual particles and SR)
book about GR => my first real contact with
the beauty of modern physics
beauty, love, fate
delphi29@excite.com
[Reply to post by JohnRoth, see full quote below]
The first time we "met" in the matrix (and so far the
only time) was 2002-10-10, when I wrote something about
how the name for Pluto was chosen. You added the facts,
namely: "What happened is that the name was chosen by
a contest; the winning entry was by an (I think)
British schoolgirl who related her choice (Pluto) to
the fact that the planet was very far from the sun and
quite dark." That reminded me then of a scene in the
movie "Men in Black", in which Will Smith passes a test
by not shooting at figures of 3 very dangerous looking
space aliens, but instead shoots at the figure of a
little girl, because she happens to be carrying a book
about quantum mechanics...
Unfolding new things, like it happens especially in
young girls, is a very delicate matter. Hence I have
to stop now, there are too many just evolving matters
touched by what you wrote. In January this year I had
asked the I Ching for the first time. It answered:
> I:I :I: wei-chi (fire/water, 64)
>
> BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
> But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
> Gets his tail in the water,
> There is nothing that would further.
>
> The image of the condition before transition.
> Thus the superior man is careful
> In the differentiation of things,
> So that each finds its place.
Accordingly, I modified words that could be found by
a casual googler interested in an emerging news story
in my quote of previous posts below (e.g. "house boat"
replaced by "{houseboat}"; and replied in a new thread
and modified the subject lightly (else it would still
appear in the same thread at google groups). I think I
will at least still be able to write something about
a few interesting twists between what you said about
fate related to quantum mechanics, in one of my future
reflections. I can already exclude the next one, since
I already tossed the coins yesterday; they point more
to questions of objective reality (7th reflection).
Please allow me to leave things a that for the moment.
Thanks,
delphi29
--
{JohnRoth} ({newsgroupsatjhrothjrcom}) wrote:
> "{DelphiTwentine}" <{delphi29atexcitecom}> wrote in message
> {newsdelphi29-9227A3.09564704082003@newsbluewinch}...
> > {JohnRoth} ({newsgroupsatjhrothjrcom}) wrote:
> > > More interesting is a paper, hot off the presses (I saw the note
> > > on Slashdot) that points out that we can't know the **exact** location
> > > of anything in time or space, an observation that has rather interesting
> > > consequences, and is much more profound than the {HeisenbergUncertainty}
> > > Principle (which sets limits on the joint certainty in time and space,
> > > and only applies at very small time and distance scales.)
> > >
> > > From this, the author actually solves {ZenosParadox}!
> > >
> > > {http://scienceslashdotorg}/science/03/08/03/029213.shtml?tid=134
> > >
> > > Pretty strange stuff going on in physics these days...
> >
> > Thanks a lot for the hint. I was so bold to post a
> > question about the referenced scientific paper to
> > {sciphysres}. With the moon at what I call
> > the "decision point", between Libra and Scorpio,
> > I am both quite suspicious and cautiously optimistic.
>
> You're not the only one that's suspicious. I've since
> found more data on the journal; it's quite well known
> for printing papers that are more thought-provoking
> than substantive.
>
> > About fate: My next reflection, which I wrote two
> > weeks ago and which will appear next monday, also
> > deals with some aspects of fate, although not in
> > a very analytical manner. There are some quite
> > specific ideas about the "practical aspects" of
> > fate in my discoveries document, in fact those
> > where the ones that got me into astrology in the
> > first place. When the coins will point there, I
> > will probably reflect about them here...
> > (As maybe expected, they leave practically all
> > of the philosophical questions open).
>
> Well, fate is an interesting subject, as see Larry's
> fulminations about it. I'm going to take this
> opportunity to say that, AFIC, there's a lot less
> here than meets the eye. (Yes, I definitely meant
> less.)
>
> My viewpoint, such as it is, is that we are
> fragments of a spiritual being (which I call essence)
> that exists outside
> of space and time as we currently conceptualize
> it. That being creates incarnated versions of itself,
> and sets them up to have certain experiances in a
> given lifetime. It's up to the incarnated self to make
> of those experiances what it will.
>
> Astrology is the part we see of the mechanism of
> how all this works.
>
> So what happens if I run into someone that essence
> decided I was going to have a relationship with?
> Is that fate or free will? It totally depends on who's
> viewpoint you're using. Mine - it's fate. I didn't know
> anything about it until it happened, and I didn't have
> any choice in the matter. Neither did the other person.
>
> From essences' viewpoint, it's free will - that is, essences'
> free will. It decided it was going to happen, it brought the
> two people together at the appointed place and time, and it happened.
>
> So what is fate? It's simply the puppet master pulling
> the strings, and learned discourses about the nature of
> the strings and such like matters I find rather uninteresting.
> I'd rather get on with my life, such as it is.
>
> BTW - I've always found "synchronicity" to be a hoot.
> The guy who invented the concept must have been laughing
> all the way to his deathbed about the people who swallowed
> that when they wouldn't accept causality that involved a
> spiritual being. Either what happens is random coincidence,
> or you can trace out a chain of causality.
>
> {JohnRoth}
>
>
> >
> > {delphi29atexcitecom}
> > --
> > {keywordexactphilosophy}
Richard Nolle (rnolle@astropro.com) wrote:
> Leather and lycra, hoses at two paces in the fountain pool . . . tastes great .
> . . less filling!
Hope you don't mind...
Heracles 5th labour consists of cleaning the stables
of Augeias within a single day (one passage of the
sun). He achieves that by using all four elements:
A good idea is required (Fire,1), provided by the
advice of Menedemus and executed by Heracles with
help by Iolaus (two "twins", one helping with advice,
the other with action; cf. section 3.15 in my
discoveries document; Air,2). What they do is breach
two gates on opposite ends of the stable, then merge
two rivers (Water, out of 2 things emerges a third,3)
and divert the river; such that it flows through the
stable and thus washes away the dung (Earth, 4) that
had been constipating the stable (refers also to
lunar nodes, vegetative tube trough body (Earth),
mouth and anus, 8, hence via 5-Leo, 8-Scorpio also
relation between Scorpio and Leo, namely conception
and birth).
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote:
> 1 - fire - machine with fiery red eyes
> 2 - air - two machines, one old, other made
> of liquid metal (mercury/Hermes)
> 3 - water - female machine, mixture of two
> previous ones (hard+soft)
Terminator 1 has to be killed, just like the hero
Heracles had to kill the Nemean Lion in his first
task, only to then wear his skin. A copy of the
terminator returns in part 2 and 3, has to learn
to show feelings, to have compassion with others,
and has to fight the animal instincts in the next
two elements, Air and Water. The Air terminator
is male and made of liquid metal (reminding of
Mercury), can change into any shape and person
very quickly. The Water terminator is female, is
a merge (like children) of a metal skeleton plus
a liquid metal cover. She is like a little girl
who wants to possess everyting she sees:
"I want that dress" - things; "I want that gun"
to the policeman - people, especially men; wants
to control them through their "gun", wants to
make use of their instinctive, animal power. She
can also remote control other machines. Similar
to the first terminator, these Air and Water
initial insticts have to be controlled by the
hero, hence to some degree have to be terminated.
"I'll be back.",
delphi29@excite.com
There is a paper by Peter Lynds that has apparently caught
the attention of the media. It is to appear in Foundations
of Physics Letters this month:
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=624701
Here are title and abstract:
Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminacy vs.
Discontinuity
It is postulated there is not a precise static instant in time
underlying a dynamical physical process at which the relative
position of a body in relative motion or a specific physical
magnitude would theoretically be precisely determined. It is
concluded it is exactly because of this that time (relative
interval as indicated by a clock) and the continuity of a
physical process is possible, with there being a necessary
trade off of all precisely determined physical values at a time,
for their continuity through time. This explanation is also
shown to be the correct solution to the motion and infinity
paradoxes, excluding the Stadium, originally conceived by the
ancient Greek mathematician Zeno of Elea. Quantum Cosmology,
Imaginary Time and Chronons are also then discussed, with the
latter two appearing to be superseded on a theoretical basis.
In the acknowledgment, the author thanks several people,
including J.A. Wheeler:
"Conversations and correspondence with, and encouraging words
received from J. A. Wheeler of Princeton, J. J. C. Smart and
H. Price of Australia, C. Grigson of New Zealand, A. P. French
of MIT, and W. B. Yigitoz of Canada, as well as from the two
very helpful unanimous referees of this paper, are most
gratefully acknowledged."
So far, everything seems interesting. What makes me a bit
suspicious, is that Peter Lynds is said to be working as
a broadcasting instructor, according to the following
newspaper article that has been posted:
http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=bgdvur%24ntdn4%241%40ID-196093.news.uni-berlin.de
Could it be a hoax, appropriately placed in the summer months
where the media accept things more easily ? The paper seems
to be most specific in areas of physics that I do not grasp
well enough. So my question to the experts here:
Is it a hoax or is it for real ?
If it is for real, how big is it ?
delphi29@excite.com
Reflections - 2242
Hi there.
This is reflection 7 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
This time the coins pointed to my primary hypotheses
H1-H5 (TTTT'THTT'THHT'TTTH'T = 2242):
> The following statement*s* stem from my personal experience. As they have not
> been independently verified, I have preferred to label them with the letter H
> for hypothesis.
> H1 Human brains are emotionally interconnected.
> H2 The feeling between two people is maximal if people's heads face each other,
> face away from each other or one is facing towards the other and the other is
> facing away, and it is minimal in between, at 90° (a). If two people face each
> other, the feeling is maximal if the symmetry planes of their heads coincide
> and minimal if they are perpendicular (b).
> H3 The intensity of feeling decreases with distance (a). In some cases, it can
> be felt across global distances (b) and through the earth (c).
> H4 For most people the feeling is strongest if the other person is of the
> opposite sex (a) and especially so if one is in love with that person (b). For
> homosexual and bisexual people the relative strengths of feeling are different
> in the obvious way (c).
> H5 The feeling is mutual.
First I thought that this would be about discussing
why these hypotheses are not as unrealistic as they
may seem. But then I noticed that the coins pointed to
the letter S of 'statements', that there are 5 of them
and that S looks almost like 5. Hence this is about
the new stuff that I discovered last week.
5 is 4+1, is reality (4) one step (1) further, where
1 is Fire and the sun that steps into the next sign.
So the number 5 is about ideas, about new things that
emerge by imagination out of known reality.
But 5 is also 3+2, is about the relation between fate
(3) and individual thinking (2). They are the two
faces of the coin: Fate influences thinking, but also
thinking influences fate. This is maybe best expressed
in Franz Kafka's very short story "Das Schweigen der
Sirenen" (The Silence of the Sirens).
English: http://zork.net/~patty/ksilence.html
German: http://www.pitt.edu/~kafka/sirenen.html
This fits also well with common associations that are
made with the 5th house in astrology, that it is about
creating, about children, i.e. about things that are
transcending, go beyond, the individual reality of a
limited lifespan. So it is also about the relation of
the individual to life, to where he/she comes from and
where he/she is going to.
> H5 The feeling is mutual.
Contrary to H1-H4, this is not based on my actual
experience, but rather an idea how it most likely
is. Feeling is love, is fate. Mutual means that there
are two sides to it, fate and free will, that there
is somebody who wants and somebody who is wanted,
a man and a woman (and vice versa).
Similar things can be done with other numbers. 6 is
5+1, the next step after having had an idea, namely
the opportunity to realize it. 6 is also 4+2, hence
reality plus logic, which I already previously related
to science, and most specifically to physics, where
abstract beauty and symmetries are very important.
And 6 is also 3+3, representing two options for fate
(3 for the first option, 3 for the other), hence
again opportunity.
The number of this reflection is 7, which I directly
associate with Saturn, the outermost planet to Greek
knowledge. Germany is a country that has had the sun
in either of the two signs associated with Saturn in
its long history. The term "Blut und Boden" (blood
and ground) represents German roots, people with the
same blood (fate,water,3) and the ground (earth,4),
7 = 3+4. Then there is the logical evolution (2)
of ideas (5), which reminds of time, of the orderly
progression of nature. And so on.
I have just begun exploring this new world. So more
analysis is clearly required. Luckily Jupiter will
soon enter Virgo, when that should be quite fun to do.
(Not only for me, I hope, but also for others).
By the way, my post has finally appeared at the
sci.physics.research newsgroup. We will see.
(which side of the coin will be up.)
Next reflection will be in two weeks.
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Keyword: exactphilosophy
The following text has been extracted from a pdf
document that had been online for a few months
in spring and summer 2003 at exactphilosophy.net.
delphi29@excite.com
> The following few pages were originally comments before or
> after a collection of newsgroup posts by me. They all relate
> to the discoveries and hypotheses presented at
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net
>
> 1 - Everything rests by changing (September 2002)
> 2 - Over and Out (December 2002)
> 3 - Over and Out (December 2002)
> 4 - Epilogue (April 2003)
>
> Note that pages 2 and 3 may feel offensive to some readers.
> Also, some statements on page 1 are a bit biased.
>
> [page 1]
>
> Everything rests by changing
>
> (Review of "A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder)
>
> How not to promote something that is close to nature, but
> relatively different from current culture...
>
> The less somebody knows about the world, the more that person
> bases his/her judgment on nature, on what she/he can see and
> touch. Intellectuals, however, are often quite a bit trapped
> inside their specialized worlds, they base their judgment
> rather on what they have learned, and often also their carers
> depend on some premises remaining valid. Hence, intellectuals
> are mostly less open to new things that are close to nature,
> i.e. that are real, but also relatively remote from current
> cultural understanding of how the world is supposed to be.
>
> In this document, I have simply collected my attempts to
> convince or rather at least interest some intellectuals from
> different sides into what I found out, but with little result,
> except maybe to stake the claim to have said it first. I wrote
> about 99 posts to internet newsgroups, got mentioned in about
> two other internet forums, got listed by mistake on a web site
> that lists crazy things on the web, wrote a few letters, mainly
> to astrologers, and found about one or two people who could
> understand what I was talking about. Of course, they were (as
> far as I can tell from a few exchanges of ASCII text) not the
> kind of people who try to achieve an important position in the
> world, but rather people who are interested in understanding
> the world, something which you would naively associate with any
> scientist.
>
> I must admit that I chose a moment to publish when people were
> generally inflexible with regard to new things, namely because
> Uranus and Neptune are currently in Aquarius, the older old man
> of the zodiac. In the near or remote future, things may be
> different.
>
> I have Saturn, who stands also for something that has to be made
> public, near the end of Pisces. Saturn is at the end of the
> circle, where universe and womb almost become one again. In
> other words, where I have to be in public, is close to that
> position, which is both universal, i.e. natural, and close to
> everybody, close to normal people and their everyday needs. Other
> people have to fight their way up, have to try to gain concrete
> influence on others - but at the end of the circle, the influence
> becomes so universal, has to take every imaginable aspect of the
> world into account, that the influence become impersonal, natural.
> No individual can impose something on the world, only what is
> natural, what is universally desired, what everybody perceives
> the same way, only that will make it.
>
> There are many things in the discoveries that would be immediately
> useful. Lovers would know where to look in order to feel each
> other better when they are apart. People could solve some minor
> conflicts at home and at work more easily with some basic knowledge
> of psychological astrology. These are things that everybody cares
> about, but as a private person, not as a researcher etc.
>
> What follows is simply all 99 newsgroup posts that contain the
> word "exactphilosophy" that were archived at groups.google.com.
> There is interesting stuff in what follows, but don't expect
> anything nearly comparable to the density and clarity of the
> original document that had been forged during the recent the
> Saturn-Pluto opposition.
>
> © Copyright 2002 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
>
> [page 2]
>
> Fame and power make unhappy and sick. The world is old and
> experienced enough to continue on its own, without my help in
> public. There are already some faint signs of new life emerging.
> More poetically speaking, one could say that my quaoarian task
> of singing some initial life and structure into this dead,
> aquarian world is now over - others will take over now. Take
> care, at some point fate will hold you or your children
> responsible for your actions. Let me briefly review part of
> Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate" (Samuel Weiser, 1984),
> namely about Virgo and Astraea (starry): "Once she lived on
> earth, during the Golden Age when there was no strife or
> bloodshed among men. [...] But with the gradual corruption
> of men, Astraea conceived a hatred for the human race because
> of its crimes, and left earth forever [...] to become the
> constellation of Virgo."
>
> I am from the generation with Pluto in Virgo. Next time I will
> say something in public, you will have to beg.
>
> Over and out,
> Alain Stalder *7 August, 1966 in Zürich, Switzerland [little swiss flag]
>
> (15 December 2002)
>
> [page 3]
> PS: The initial words of this text are, of course, to be viewed
> out of the moment I wrote them (including a political event that
> day in Switzerland). Normally, I would express my opinion more
> carefully and in less absolute terms. Please read it accordingly.
> However, I will stick to my promise to remain silent in public
> unless there are direct and convincing requests for me to change
> that. In that sense, the moment only ignited my decision, and did
> not cause it alone. I have found out some really exceptional new
> things about the world. And I presented them in a very careful
> way in my initial document, taking great care to get things right
> psychologically and compatible with existing science. I guess
> the above posts to physics newsgroups show that I do know the
> foundations of current physics very well. Furthermore, my posts
> to astrology newsgroups show that I know contemporary
> psychological astrology well enough to get things right in that
> respect, too. All my facts in the original document
> (discoveries.pdf) are very carefully researched, checked many,
> many times and from many different angles. So, in the end, the
> document does not need my help, it is too strong a child for that.
>
> I am aware that the document shows everybody his or her borders,
> confronts almost everybody with some unpleasant parts of their
> lives, with some sore blind spots that everybody likes to avoid.
> However, that does not make the discoveries false, quite to the
> contrary. I might be almost the last person on earth who wants
> too much change in too little time. But that does not mean that
> it is good to ignore the discoveries altogether.
>
> Note that currently Mercury is in Capricorn, the moon in Taurus,
> and Mars follows Venus in close conjunction in Scorpio. This
> makes this text very probably realistic and up to the point
> psychologically, but also probably not entirely fair in all
> respects.
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
>
> Alain Stalder
>
> (16 December 2002)
>
> This document is:
> © Copyright 2002 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
>
> [page 4]
>
> The following text has emerged between 1993 and 1995 in a
> HyperCard™ stack. The text may not be reproduced by any means,
> neither in part or as a whole, without prior written consent
> by me, Alain Stalder.
>
> [text of a philosophical nature, not reproduced here]
Keyword: exactphilosophy
The following introduction has been online at
http://www.exactphilosophy.net between about
August 2002 and August 2003.
delphi29@excite.com
> Introduction
>
> to "A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
>
> The greek word "physis" has many meanings that all circle
> around what we now call "nature".
>
> This explains part of the fundamental role that physics
> plays in today's scientific world. The other reason is
> the fact that physics most directly applies the idea of
> Pythagoras to describe the world by numbers. Physical
> theories operate on numbers. The world we see is first
> transformed into numbers using simple and commonly agreed
> rules, then mathematically formulated physical theories
> are applied to transform these numbers to new numbers,
> which, in turn, are then mapped to reality again. A
> priori there are no limits as to where it makes sense to
> apply this method. Besides physics, important parts of
> other sciences apply the exact methods of physics.
>
> However, a probably even larger part of science is still
> based on informally formulated theories and individual
> scientists or even schools of belief that fight each other
> with various arguments. It would mean great progress for
> science, if only part of these disputes could be solved
> directly by asking nature, using the exact methods of
> physics.
>
> The document called "A few new discoveries in physics" that
> I wrote describes the result of my visits to other branches
> of science and also to some not so scientific crafts like,
> for example, astrology. It is important to stress that I
> went there as a physicist, on the look for things that can
> be formulated in an exact, quantitative way, for questions
> that can be asked to nature using the means of physics.
> Such questions to nature are called scientific hypotheses
> if they are:
>
> a) simple and specific enough to be verified experimentally,
> b) in agreement with previous experiments.
>
> (Note that a hypothesis may make different predictions than
> existing theories for a range of experiments that have not
> been tested yet. Theories that are superseded in that way
> remain nonetheless viable and often useful approximations
> for the range of previous experiments.)
>
> The document I wrote is difficult to understand in its
> entirety due to its interdisciplinary nature. Often the
> people working in the diverse fields I visited have strong
> psychological aversions to even talk to the "other" people.
> I cannot remove barriers that have been created during
> centuries within a short time span and essentially alone.
> I need help. I need experts from the respective fields who
> take the time and make the effort to look at the document
> in detail and then write about it in a language that most
> people in their environments can understand.
>
> Not every hypothesis in the document will turn out
> experimentally to be true. Still, there is lots of great
> and useful stuff to discover for everybody in the document,
> for physicists, psychologists, historians, astrologers,
> and philosophers alike, but it takes some effort to
> discover it. Please do.
>
> Copyright © 2002 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
I wrote:
> Reflections - 2242
[...]
> First I thought that this would be about discussing
> why these hypotheses are not as unrealistic as they
> may seem. But then I noticed that the coins pointed to
> the letter S of 'statements', that there are 5 of them
> and that S looks almost like 5. Hence this is about
> the new stuff that I discovered last week.
[...]
I have the sun in Leo, which is amplified at this time
of the year. So there is a lot of partial insights
that are woven into a coherent, but naive and partially
false view. So some of the stuff in my other threads is
(as it looks now) not fully correct, although in a
maybe interesting way. But it seems to me that what I
wrote in my reflections post is different, maybe because
it reflects from a crystal forged by Pluto and Saturn.
I am about to publish a post that explains the abstract
of my discoveries document to different newsgroups.
If you are interested in the various reactions, just go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy" and
sort by date. First posts should appear in a few hours.
I have at the same time updated my web site and am now
also preparing a document that lists what I could
extract during the last year or so. I will acknowledge
there also this group. In most cases the influences
that helped me to extract things come about not by
conscious content of discussions, but rather by the
unconscious parts, also from suffering (Thomas Ring
has, I think related that to the moon, hence also to
Cancer, which is about creating things, bringing them
to birth, and birth is also often a painful experience).
There is one exception, namely posts by Sharyn and by
Pete P, that lead a path (sun-free will, cat-tail-coin)
that lead to new insights, especially the relatively
stronger importance of numbers in houses than in signs.
Thus I plan to mention you two in the acknowledgment,
if you don't mind. If you do, just tell me and I will
state the acknowledgment more generally, say "two
moderators at alt.astrology.tropical".
"Follow the white rabbit". Leo is also about the old
kings that had to go and are replaced by new kings
that replace them, although in different mixtures and
with some different properties. The old and new kings
usually are not connected on an individual level. At
my first astrology seminar by Liz Greene, in November
1999, I had never heard of Charles Harvey, and yet it
had just about that time become clear that he would
die within the next few months. Similarly, when I came
here, I sort of came here (without knowing) to kill my
real name "Alain Stalder" as a usenet poster and
replace it by "Delphi Twentine" for good. Sadly, also
some real people had to die.
So the following may again be a bit naive, but maybe
still helpful: "Weiss" in german means "white", and
"weise" means "wise"; the rabit occurs in several myths
with male gods chasing female ones and vice versa.
Robert Graves, himself a Leo (1895-07-24) dwells a lot
on these themes in his book "The Greek Myths". The
different animals represent transformations caused
by the sun through the seasons. My first association
when I heard the name "Charles Harvey", was with the
black and white movie "My Friend Harvey", with James
Steward, where Harvey is a 9 foot tall invisible
rabbit. In that sense, the invisible white rabbits
never disappear.
delphi29@excite.com
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
*SES* wrote:
> In "Numerology" by Norman Shine he lists the following:
>
> 8 Pluto
>
> Description:
> the unconscious mind
> transformation of the material
> timeless space
> both/and balance
> dharma: doing what has to be done
>
> Aspect: Octile
>
> 8 Pluto Scorpio/North Lunar Node
I can see a link 8-Pluto in the form
8-8th house-Scorpio-Pluto, but I think
the associations 9-Pluto are stronger:
Milan Kundera mentions in one of his books
the nine gates of a woman. They are:
two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, mouth,
anus and vagina. Clearly, the 9th gate is
the vagina, because men only have 8 gates.
The vagina is clearly related to fate
(conception, birth), hence there is a link
9-vagina-fate-Pluto.
I noticed also that the actual glyph 8 is
two rings, but 9 is only a single ring.
Anus and mouth are connected by a tube, but
the vagina has no other exit, which also
ressembles fate.
9 is 3 x 3.
Most of Scorpio is in November (nove=9),
so there is a link 9-November-Scorpio-Pluto.
PS: In the movie "The Ninth Gate" by Roman
Polansky, the hero (Jonny Depp) only passes
the gate after sleeping with the devil/angel
(Emanuelle Seigner). Interesting are also
the two brothers in Spain (Gemini/Hermes)
that appear twice in different disguises,
once as experts for old books, then simply
as workers. It is also interesting that
just finding the 9 sheets of the 3 books was
not sufficient, the 10th sheet had to be
placed by the twins for the hero to find
at the second visit to Spain. This
reminds of Sagittarius(-December-10), the
other side of the axis Gemini-Sagittarius.
Maybe the best way is really to start a list
of all associations between Planets and
numbers that one can find, and then sum up.
The partial list so far would be:
8-8th house-Scorpio-Pluto
9-vagina-fate-Pluto
9-3x3-3-triangle/fates/moon phases-fate-Pluto
9-November-Scorpio-Pluto
The word fate appears already twice here, so
it might maybe be best to draw rather a tree
structure with words as nodes.
delphi29@excite.com
ande452@attglobal.net wrote:
> > > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > > interconnected.
[...]
> You're describing experimental predictions that have no measurable
> effects in physical science.
>
> John Anderson
What exactly do you have in mind ?
I see no problem with measuring brain activities in
the brains of two people who are spacially separated
and then to try to find correlations.
Feelings are connected to electrical and chemical
activity in the brain, or do you see that differently ?
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote:
> Reflections - 2242
[...]
> But 5 is also 3+2, is about the relation between fate
> (3) and individual thinking (2). They are the two
> faces of the coin: Fate influences thinking, but also
> thinking influences fate. This is maybe best expressed
> in Franz Kafka's very short story "Das Schweigen der
> Sirenen" (The Silence of the Sirens).
Hermes is the messenger of the gods, and especially
the messenger of Zeus. He brings something from A
to B, hence he subtracts 1 at A and adds 1 at B.
For example, he brings Dionysus as a child to the
Hyades ('rain-makers', see Robert Graves TGM, also
for the meanings of their 5 individual names). The
god Dionysus is associated with Pisces and hence
originally with Jupiter/Zeus, the 6th planet in
antiquity (second slowest of the 7 known planets
at that time). That is symbolically expressed by
adding Dionysus to the five Hyades, 5+1=6.
Mercury is not only the Roman equivalent of Hermes,
but also the name of quicksilver, the only liquid
metallic element (at room temperature, atmospheric
pressure). Mercury is liquid (water,3) and reflects
light (mirror duplicates,2), hence 3+2=5.
Excerpt from interview of Nick Champion with Liz
Greene of 2001-08-14 in London (it appeared in "The
Mountain Astrologer" (Dec01/Jan02), and is now at:
http://www.astro.com/astrology/plutint1_e.htm):
> Nick Campion: [...] Is the ability to make a choice itself linked
> to another astrological pattern in the chart?
> Liz Greene: No. There is something that operates within resonances
> which psychology calls consciousness. I certainly don't have a
> definition of what that is, except that it is Mercurial.
> Consciousness is like the Mercurial figure in alchemy. It isn't
> limited by or bound by astrological patterns. Consciousness
> inhabits and expresses through those patterns, yet it can operate
> outside and within and around them, and it is what allows us to
> make choices. I think that it's what transforms our way of
> responding to these patterns. Either we simply are the pattern
> and we enact it blindly, which is what happens in all the animal
> kingdoms, or we bring that element of consciousness to bear.
> The pattern doesn't then go away, but it gets more notes in
> its chord.
In the zodiac, Air and Water and their respective
internal conflicts are most clearly expressed in
their middle signs, Libra and Scorpio, the two
older adult signs who have to decide. The fates
(Scorpio) have limited abilities to think, so
they are always open to new proposals (Libra),
but also always suspicious, for the same reason.
The view 5=4+1, of the younger adult signs, Leo and
Virgo, represents the dry (outer) view of the world,
nature (earth,4) that evolves in its natural cycles,
driven by energy (fire,1). From the point of view
of these two elements/signs, there is no fate, only
outside restrictions (4) and ways to change them (1).
delphi29@excite.com
Ideas come about by combining two things...
In article <bhbjit$652$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Pete P" <pdmarch13@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> NEW MOON: 0* 00 - 44* 59 ahead of Sun
> CRESCENT: 45* 00 -89* 59 " " ""
> 1st QUARTER: 90* 00 - 134* 59 " " "
> GIBBOUS: 135* 00 - 179* 59 " " "
> FULL MOON: 180* 00 - 135* 01 behind the Sun
> DISSEMINATING: 135* 00 - 90* 01 " " "
> LAST QUARTER: 90* 00 - 45* 01 " " "
> BALSAMIC: 45* 00 - 00* 01 " " "
In article <bhbq5i$b53$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Pete P" <pdmarch13@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The only global events I could scratch up were the Turkey earthquake on
> August 19th, and the deployment of limited US troops to help the UN
> peacekeepers on East Timor in September.
The earthquake was 8 days after the eclipse.
Is there also a cycle of 8 years (analogy year/day) ?
9/11 would have been around the start of the 1st quarter,
now we would be at the beginning of full moon.
To take some of the depth out of this:
If I was the fates, how would I motivate, say,
a construction worker to work hard ? Would I
tell him that he is a construction worker with
no special task in the world, that he should
just work very hard at his job ? That would not
be optimal -- I would rather tell him that he
was chosen for a very special task, that he is
the only one who can do it, or at least the one
who can do it best. I would make it a shared
secret between him and me, a greater task that
only he could fulfill, like Ulysses (see also
the modern novel). That is an important theme
for the sun and Leo (where also my sun is), but
it is just as much illusion (personal and also
collective), as it is a reality. Of course,
everybody is chosen, but mostly by one's family,
wife, friends, etc., by people who are emotionally
connected and have common desires. A choice at a
higher level seems in most cases rather unlikely.
I estimate rather that tasks are delegated several
times down (say country chooses city, city chooses
clan, clan choses family, family choses individual).
Utopies are a great danger in the Age of Aquarius.
The Utopies of the 20th century (Communism and
Fascism) have cost the loss of millions of lives.
Prometheus (forethought) steals the fire from the
gods to bring it to men. But all technological
progress, if not done with measure and forethought
can bear great danger, as seen by Epimetheus
(afterthought), the brother of Prometheus, who
accepts Pandora as his wife. She later opens the
famous box, and also the not so good options that
grow out of the new technological possibilities
escape. Overall, if you look at the previous 2.5
centuries, however, progress has made lives of
most people a lot better. It is simply the idea
of the Age of Aquarius that more conscious
knowledge of the world by mankind is ultimately
better than less knowledge. That cannot be escaped.
(At least not without first changing collective
unconscious beliefs that are thousands of years old).
What can be done and should be done, however, is to
excercise moderation in exploring new possibilities.
It is interesting that Pandora is a woman, it is
her curiousity, also connected to sexuality
(box-vagina-fate/love/beauty, cf. Freud) that is
what gets things rolling in the end. I am a Swiss
physicist. Friedrich Durrenmatt's play (he is Swiss
too) "The Physicists" talks about the dangers if
scientists try too hard to protect humanity from
new discoveries. In the play, the scientist Moebius
reduces the pace too much, so that in the end, it
is again a woman, the head of the asylum, who takes
the discovery into her possession, thus priving
humanity of its positive aspects. It is the fate
of the Age of Aquarius that progress cannot be
avoided, only its pace should be moderated to the
advantage of all.
As a scientist, I think that all these emerging
possibilities should be investigated relatively
quickly, in order to give people a safe ground
to stand on again, and to make the possibilities
and dangers that might emerge estimable. I hope
I have done my part in it, and, of course, I will
try to help others to get a grasp of the new
ideas (that will also essentially end my special
role in it; which also takes a great weight from
my shoulders). Now the help and work of many
experts in different areas (physics, psychology,
astrology, history, etc.) is required. I am no
longer qualified for that (except in my native
field of physics, of course). Good luck!
My discoveries are certainly important in the time
frame of about the next 30 years, up to the next
Saturn-Pluto opposition. But judging if they really
have a crucial effect on a whole age, is premature;
2150 years is a very long time. Ask me again in
about 500 years. ;)
delphi29@excite.com
In article <slrnbjka5u.5p.dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net>,
dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net (Bilge) wrote:
> Delphi Twentine:
> >ande452@attglobal.net wrote:
> >
> >> > > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> >> > > interconnected.
[...]
> >> You're describing experimental predictions that have no measurable
> >> effects in physical science.
> >>
> >> John Anderson
> >
> >What exactly do you have in mind ?
> >
> >I see no problem with measuring brain activities in
> >the brains of two people who are spacially separated
> >and then to try to find correlations.
> >
> >Feelings are connected to electrical and chemical
> >activity in the brain, or do you see that differently ?
>
> Figure out the 1/r fall off of the potential and the level of
> activity needed to have not been seen with simple measuring devices.
>
I am not quite sure what you are referring to.
Could you be more specific about what you have in mind ?
delphi29@excite.com
*SES* wrote
> In "Numerology" by Norman Shine he lists the following:
>
> 9 Neptune Pisces/South Lunar Node
>
> Aspects: Novile
>
> description of 9:
>
> spiritual creativity
> divine love
> innate talents
> completion
> karma: the reward for actions of previous lives
The number 8 is symmetric (one circle is the
mirror image of the other). Symmetry is
beautiful, not only in the abstract sense,
but also concretely: The sexually most
attractive parts of the body consist arguably
of two symmetric, round things.
That is 8=4+4, two realities that are more
beautiful than a single one. Liz Greene
connects, if I remember correctly, Poseideon
resp. Neptune originally with earth, with
a bull, with Taurus. Taurus is the first
Earth sign, the young girl, mainly concerned
about her beauty, not much troubled by order
and sorting, yet.
8 is also 5+3, idea (5) plus beauty/love/fate (3).
The British/French physicist Paul Adrien Maurice
Dirac was born 1902-08-08, i.e. with two 8s
(which gives also 8x8=64,...). I will talk a bit
about how fittingly his contributions to physics
came about in my next reflection (no. 8), and also
about my idea about the link between numbers and
houses and the fifth element, which I had (see
recent post) 2003-08-08 ca. 04:25 Zurich 02:25 UTC.
Very preliminary, maybe 8-Neptune, 9-Pluto fits
more strongly than the other way. Of course, it
is also imaginable, that some numbers are equally
shared between two Planets (or more).
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote:
> In article <slrnbjka5u.5p.dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net>,
> dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net (Bilge) wrote:
>
> > Delphi Twentine:
> > >ande452@attglobal.net wrote:
> > >
> > >> > > A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> > >> > > interconnected.
[...]
> > >> You're describing experimental predictions that have no measurable
> > >> effects in physical science.
> > >>
> > >> John Anderson
> > >
> > >What exactly do you have in mind ?
> > >
> > >I see no problem with measuring brain activities in
> > >the brains of two people who are spacially separated
> > >and then to try to find correlations.
> > >
> > >Feelings are connected to electrical and chemical
> > >activity in the brain, or do you see that differently ?
> >
> > Figure out the 1/r fall off of the potential and the level of
> > activity needed to have not been seen with simple measuring devices.
> >
>
> I am not quite sure what you are referring to.
> Could you be more specific about what you have in mind ?
>
> delphi29@excite.com
Sorry, I was too quick.
Well, if a test mass could detect a field between the
two brains, then it would be just the normal case of
an electrostatic field, i.e. since the test mass would
react to it, also all other charged particles between
the two brains would be affected by the field. Hence
a connection across large distances through matter
would be impossible (see section 1.2 of the document
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf, the
main document to the abstract that I presented).
Hence, either there are no such correlations, or they
come about in a different way than current physics
allows. There are several approaches here (which are
a matter of taste):
a) Experimentally test for correlations. Only if they
are detected, bother to find an explanation. I have not
done any formal experiments so far, and I am myself
not sure if such correlations can be detected
experimentally. Maybe yes, maybe no.
b) Try to find a theory that reproduces the effects
before experimental confirmation. I have no theory,
only a somewhat speculative idea based on a
Gedankenexperiment (see section 1.3 in the above
document), namely "selective sensing" of forces in
the sense that only certain particles in the
respective brains would interact, but test masses
between the brains would feel no force.
c) Tentatively explore the consequences that such
long-range interactions between people would have.
That is what I have done in the largest part of
the document above. That has lead me to a model of
psychological properties of people connected to their
birth time (as explained in my original post).
d) This is only possible after c): namely try to test
the astrological model that I proposed. Note also that
d) does *not* require long-range connections between
people in the way in which I tentatively proposed it.
Normal everyday connections (talking, body language,
television, etc.) could be used just as well to explain
most of the consequences that I propose*. A way to
experimentally distinguish the two, would be to test
how much people who live in isolation are affected by
astrology (assuming influence of astrology had already
been proven for people who do not live in isolation).
* I say that also in my self-review, which I wrote just
after writing the main document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/reviews/review.pdf
I hope this answers you reply sufficiently, and I
hope you essentially agree with my statements above.
Thanks for the remark,
delphi29@excite.com
dubious@radioactivex.lebesque-al.net (Bilge) wrote:
> Delphi Twentine:
>
> >Well, if a test mass could detect a field between the
> >two brains, then it would be just the normal case of
> >an electrostatic field, i.e. since the test mass would
> >react to it, also all other charged particles between
> >the two brains would be affected by the field. Hence
> >a connection across large distances through matter
> >would be impossible (see section 1.2 of the document
> >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf, the
> >main document to the abstract that I presented).
>
> Huh? None of that makes any sense.
Sure does.
> >Hence, either there are no such correlations, or they
> >come about in a different way than current physics
> >allows. There are several approaches here (which are
> >a matter of taste):
>
> I have to go along with john on this regarding his
> skepticism of your claim of having a ph.d in physics.
See for example these three posts to sci.physics.research,
all dealing with rather fundamental questions in QM. The
first one (point 2 there) is maybe most closely related
to this thread. The two other posts are about decoherence.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-213AFD.17590123112002%40news.bluewin.ch
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-A850F5.13133713012003%40news.bluewin.ch
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-84CD8B.22103722012003%40news.bluewin.ch
delphi29@excite.com
ande452@attglobal.net wrote:
> > See for example these three posts to sci.physics.research,
> > all dealing with rather fundamental questions in QM. The
> > first one (point 2 there) is maybe most closely related
> > to this thread. The two other posts are about decoherence.
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-213AFD.17590123112002%40news.bluewin.ch
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-A850F5.13133713012003%40news.bluewin.ch
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-84CD8B.22103722012003%40news.bluewin.ch
> >
>
> Those postings aren't recognized physics literature. They're postings
> to a newsgroup. Even though "sci.physics.research" is moderated,
> it still accepts postings that are interesting but totally
> speculative. It may be moderated, but it sure ain't peer reviewed.
>
> If you want to make your name in physics, you don't
> "publish" on the web. You publisn in peer reviewed
> physics journals.
>
> John Anderson
This is leading nowhere, we are completely off-topic.
Bye,
delphi29@excite.com
Harry (harald.vanlintel@epfl.ch) wrote:
> Did you never hear of Princeton's PEAR project?
> I think some of their experiments came near to what you intend.
> http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ but also http://skepdic.com/pear.html
> Regretfully there was just one group that did it, giving strong reason for
> doubt. You may want to repeat some of it!
>
> Harald
Thanks for the links. Yes, I have heard of it and been
to the website before. I have not done a professional
analysis of their data, but from what I could see,
there was nothing that I would consider a proof for
correlations.
Thanks again,
delphi29@excite.com
Reflections - 55555
Hi there.
This is reflection 8 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com55555
This time I chose five fives, 55555, which points
to Libra (Life):
> Adu*l*ts have to learn to understand their partner
> and other people. But, especially in a love couple,
> complete transparency is often not desired because
> some beautiful illusions might then be destroyed
> too. Adults also strive for continuity, for not
> letting every new and exciting thing divert them
> from their plans, especially since adults have to
> solve the most complex tasks.
Paul Adrien Maurice Dirac was born 1902-08-08 to a
Swiss father and an English mother. His best known
contribution to modern physics is the Dirac Equation,
for which he got the Nobel Prize in 1933. What has
impressed and influenced many physicists since then,
is how he found the equation. At that time there were
two related equations, the Schrodinger Equation that
reproduced the measured energy spectrum of hydrogen,
but not in all details and was not compatible with
Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and there
was the Klein-Gordon Equation, which was relativistic,
but did not produce the right spectrum. Dirac simply
started by making a list of the symmetry properties
that a relativistic equation would have to have, and
then used mathematics to find the equation. He was
driven by a feeling of beauty for the symmetries
of nature.
The number 8 is maybe the most universal number, its
two rings symbolize the two opposites that everything
we know is made of, and how the energy flows between
them. Dionysus was born twice, first the normal way
and then killed, cut into pieces, cooked, put back
together and woven into Zeus' thigh by Hermes, and
then born through a second gate from there. The
constellation of Pisces consists of two fish that
are orthogonal to each other (see Robert Hand's
essay about "The Age and Constellation of Pisces",
published in his book "Essays on Astrology"). Thus
they form an 8 by 8 matrix of life, just like a chess
board or also the I Ching. The fundamental role of
the I Ching is maybe most clearly seen by how it was
treated during a former "Cultural Revolution", around
the year 0, when it was attempted to burn all ancient
books - except the I Ching. My first question ever to
the I Ching revealed the last number, 64=8x8:
I:I :I: wei-chi (fire/water, 64)
BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
Gets his tail in the water,
There is nothing that would further.
The image of the condition before transition.
Thus the superior man is careful
In the differentiation of things,
So that each finds its place.
Of course, this fits well with me, with my strong
emphasis on fire and water in my chart, and with
my retrograde Mercury (fox, Hermes) at the end of
the 12th house (before completion) as well as with
my retrograde Saturn at the end of Pisces. But,
since the latter two are so universally placed,
I think it simultaneously says something about how
the world should proceed in general, namely by very
cautiously (but continously) probing the next steps.
The physicist in Durrenmatt's play "The Physicists"
is called "Moebius". That is the name of a special
ring, namely one in which a tape is not connected
the usual way, but where the two ends are twisted
relative to each other. That has the effect that if
one walks once around it, one goes from the outside
of the ring to its inside, only after a second turn,
one is at the same spot. The same is true for walking
along the number 8; you visit the same spot twice,
but it is different each time (see also Heraclitus).
http://www.uvm.edu/~mstorer/escher/moebius.html
The moon nodes are similarly built: They are two gates
through which the moon either enters or leaves the
unconscious, collective, where the moon either goes
below the (conscious) solar path (southern node) or
goes above it (northern node). In Western thought,
there is usually a lot of analysis put into catching
what should be done in the future. The I Ching is a
lot easier to use in that respect, it captures the
essence of a situation in one of 64 symbols.
Similarly, there are many complex analytical paths
to happiness in life, but maybe a better, synthetic
way is to simply look at where the moon nodes are
placed in one's birth chart. The southern node is
the legacy inherited from previous generations, they
are where one is coming from, where the imbalance
has been "commited" in the past. These forces have
to flow to the goals of the northern node, have to
be realized. That makes happy, because it fulfils
collective needs and balances the world.
I, for example, have the northern node in Taurus, so
my path is essentially to grow beautiful and still
realistic things, out of a "dungeon of darkness".
The USA has the northern node in Leo, which shows
in the continuous battle for individual freedom
that is perpetually challenged also inside the US.
Take the fear of Communism, or now the fear of the
"rise of the machines" (Terminator, Matrix), the
fear of the US' Aquarian moon and the southern node.
Finally, a quick word about the paper by a young guy
about Zeno's Paradox. Peter Lynds (27) is from
Wellington, New Zealand, which is in the focal point
of the two islands which look like an 8 (which are
a boat and a fish in Maori culture, I think). I have
read his paper, which reads like a text by Aristotle:
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=622019
With my Pluto in Virgo, I have some trouble to follow
the next generation (Libra), but I like the style,
independently of whether his text will have any
direct impact on physics. He was apparently helped
by an older physicist, the famous John Archibald Wheeler,
who was Feynman's tutor (and of others). Feynman was,
in turn, heavily influenced by Dirac. Archibald
reminds of Architect. We will see...
PS: I will write up "Five Easy Pieces", five ideas
that emerged out of my discoveries document (one will
be about the nodes and happiness in life) and put them
into a new document, which is in a preliminary state
now (but with maybe already interesting appendices):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/fewmore.pdf
Thanks for reading and contributing to this,
delphi29@excite.com (15 August 2003)
> I:I :I: wei-chi (fire/water, 64)
>
> BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
> But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
> Gets his tail in the water,
> There is nothing that would further.
Asked how/whether to continue with reflections: 54
Sorry beyond my control, maybe again a few years from now...
Nodes are an important ingredient for an astrology for everybody.
Thanks and good luck all,
delphi29@excite.com
I:I :I:
Reflections - 26452
Hi there.
This is reflection 9 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
The coins said TTHH'TTHH'HTHT'HTHT'H = 26452,
which points to the beginning of section 3:
> If a statement stirs up a trauma, you will probably react quite
> strongly to it, refusing the statement quite imperatively. In
> comparison, the reaction to a statement that is just not correct
> would be much more indifferent. Note, however, th*a*t a statement
> of which you think strongly that quite the contrary is true, at
> least hits the right theme and is therefore less likely to have
> occurred merely by chance than one that leaves you indifferent.
That was my initial experience with psychology,
when reading Freud. He was from Austria, a country
with a long series of founding dates with the sun
in Scorpio. That is what Scorpio usually does when
he detects some disharmony: He touches the theme
in order to find out which way it is. It does not
matter to get things right immediately, only to
create a reaction that can then be judged.
From a practical point of view, when it comes to
trying to experimentally prove astrology, it may,
at least initially, be better only to predict which
themes will occur, but not in which of of the two
possible ways people will act regarding each theme.
Concrete example: Take a statement like "Virgo tends
to create order". I think in the end that statement
is rather right than wrong, but proving it directly
might be very hard. On the other hand, detecting that
"order" is a theme for Virgo, and more so than other
possible themes, seems initially a more realistic goal.
Even with this reduction, finding convincing proof,
will be very hard. Something can be a theme also when
people tend to avoid thinking about it - things like
that have to be made part of the analysis.
Let me leave things at that and just look back briefly
and dryly at my recent "extra loop" in usenet (Mercury
is retrograde and Jupiter has entered Virgo). My first
post here already set the theme, namely I replied to
a post by LibraLove about eclipses. That has lead me
through a series of posts that essentially revealed
some things about the lunar nodes. With my Neptune in
Scorpio, I almost never judge things finally, so many
things about the nodes remain uncertain to me.
It was Poseidon/Neptune who kept Odysseus from returning
home to Itaca. And Odysseus was also in for an extra
loop after once being almost home and then being thrown
back to again by wind to a different island. Also the
Odyssey is 24 chants, where at the beginning of the
second loop, in chant 13, he is already physically back
on Itaca, but has yet to regain his reign there.
What makes Odysseus different from all the other heroes
in mythology and makes him a modern man, is that no
matter how heavily the fates and gods shook him around,
each time he woke up dizzy on an unknown island, he at
least knew where he was going to: home to Itaca.
That is how I see the nodes, without (as always) making
that my final decision. If you speak german, you might
be interested in a great little booklet about the nodes
by Sitara Mittag: "Wo kommst du her, wo gehst du hin ?"
("Where do you come from, where do you go to ?"); it is
very basic, but also very much up to the point.
Astrology, although being about almost everything on
this world, is still biased in one aspect: It is rather
analytical than synthetic. The nodes help a bit to
balance that.
What makes me maybe a bit like Odysseus, is that I have
Neptune in conjunction with my southern node in Scorpio,
which is similar to where Immanuel Kant had them, with
the only exception that in his case, Neptune was at the
northern node. Kant was certainly who influenced me most,
even though I have only read the first few chapters of
his critique of pure reason, namely the ones about
space and time [until recently, that is].
About 54: I got this answer from the I Ching twice, the
first time already on June 14, near the beginning of my
second loop. It is interesting to see where such themes
repeat. Just one example: At the 2004 astrology world
congress (the 8th and in Basel (Switzerland), two clear
references to the nodes), there is a talk by Melanie
Reinhart titled "Lightning over the Waters - Pathworking
with Uranus and Neptune" (54 is "Thunder over the Lake").
Congress web site: http://www.astro2004.ch
One more: The initial guess at the source of the power
failure in the US was that lightning had struck near
Niagara Falls. There you have lightning and water again,
and two lakes in the shape of an 8 (Ontario and Erie),
connected by a tube (the river). As a scientist, I must
say that this incident indicates that lightning does
not care too much about collective beliefs about the
number 8 etc. - at least it did not not in this case.
Finally, Peter Lynds has now a web site where he also
indicates his birthdate (1975-05-17 Hamilton (NZ)) and
gives quite a bit of personal information.
Web site: http://www.peterlynds.net.nz
Interview: http://www.peterlynds.net.nz/Q&As.html
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote:
> Is it a hoax or is it for real ?
> If it is not a hoax, how big is it ?
Thanks everybody for the feedback.
For all I can see, it is almost certainly not a hoax,
but after thinking about the paper for quite some time,
I still cannot really catch it. It appears to me that
what is missing, is a specific definition of the initial
assumptions that are made in the paper. Only if these
are made specific, does it become decidable whether
some of the concrete proposed conclusions (say, regarding
quantum foams) are logical and consistent. So, for my
taste, it is a paper about an idea, that might or might
not be turned into something concrete. It is a matter
of taste whether to follow up and actually try or not,
just as it is with any idea in physics.
delphi29@excite.com
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
> About 54: I got this answer from the I Ching twice, the
> first time already on June 14, near the beginning of my
> second loop. It is interesting to see where such themes
> repeat. Just one example: At the 2004 astrology world
> congress (the 8th and in Basel (Switzerland), two clear
> references to the nodes), there is a talk by Melanie
> Reinhart titled "Lightning over the Waters - Pathworking
> with Uranus and Neptune" (54 is "Thunder over the Lake").
"follow the white rabbit"...
Not really knowing what I was doing, I apparently
followed one of the above associations today: I went
into a bookshop and found a book by Melanie Reinhart,
called "Die Mondknoten" (the lunar nodes), which
apparently corresponds to the second part of volume
8 by CPA Press, "Incarnation":
http://www.midheavenbooks.com/acatalog/Midheaven_Bookshop_CPA_Press___books_32.html
The book appears to be by far the broadest source
about the nodes that I have seen so far...
(Side remark about retrograde Mercury: I accidentally
first wrote "about the sources" instead of "about the
nodes" :).
By the way, there is also a book by Howard Sasportas
about the nodes, an excerpt from it is actually since
quite recently online in the german section of
www.astro.com (thanks!). Might not be the best source
for me though, but the answer why not is a bit twisted:
He had his nodes in the same signs as me; I started to
read his book about houses once, but stopped after the
first house, not because what he wrote was not good,
but because it was quite close to my own knowledge.
If I remember correctly, he had the sun in Aries, and
I have the moon in Aries, so there is also another
explanation for a common concrete and realistic style.
So, let me try to formulate my take on the nodes as
Alain Stalder, in the same style as in my discoveries
document (but still written a bit more quickly):
: H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
: the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
: People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
: the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
: more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
: more happy (e).
:
: H32bc are direct consequences of H32a. The moon moves
: below the solar path at the southern node and above it
: at the northern node, corresponding to entry into and
: exit from the unconscious (H32de).
:
: [Acknowledgements]
: I would like to thank Pete P and Sharyn for discussions
: at alt.astrology.tropical that have directly helped to
: lead to H32, as well as everybody else at the newsgroup
: and others at other newsgroups for helping to prepare
: the ground.
The style above is very condensed, very much the style of
a publication in physics. Einstein is quoted to have said
"make it as simple as possible, but not simpler". Physics
is very complex; the only way to have a chance to grasp
it, is to make theories as simple as possible, while still
keeping them natural, in agreement with experiment.
Something like that is a bit like a tree in winter, the
only thing that is left are the trunk and the strongest
branches, but no leaves or flowers. The latter are a bit
what I want to create in these reflections, each time
afresh, so that the beauty hidden within becomes more
broadly accessible and also a bit that people have the
opportunity to learn to do a bit of it themselves,
if they like.
delphi29@excite.com
Reflections - 92076
Hi there.
This is reflection 10 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
This time the coins pointed to section 3.15,
Mythology in Life:
> There is a touch of Gemini in Feynman's initial r*e*action
> to the death of his wife; I have that in me too. It is some
> maybe extreme form of diverting feelings from the actual
> events to culture, to making something better out of it
> (see previous part about Gemini).
Maybe due to this and my retrograde Mercury, I have
tried to start this reflection many times in many
different ways, but none really worked, so let me
simply reflect about reflection itself.
(and hence also about me, Hermes, etc.)
To set the frame besides the current constellations
in the sky and the quote above: The number 10 is 5+5,
hence is about balancing and choosing ideas, is also
one more than 9, above fate, December (Sagittarius)
after November (Scorpio), associated with Capricorn
through the 10th house and also with the MC.
Kant realized that space and time are necessary for
thinking. When you think, you need to compare at
least two things in your head, so you must have a
separation between two "ones", which is basically
a form of space. Similarly, you cannot think without
first having one thing in your mind and then another.
So space and time in thinking are closely related
to the number 2.
The music is between the notes - Miles Davis (I think)
I remember an interview with John McLaughlin, also a
quite famous jazz musician who used to play with Miles
Davis, in which he said that Miles Davis used to say
sentences in the style of a Zen master to other people
who were about to play with him, puzzling things that
were not really analyzable, but got people into the
right state of mind to bring things out.
Is there both an outer (real) world and an inner world
in our minds ? If yes, then each part of reality has
a counterpart in the mind, right ? Well, not any more
since quantum mechanics. If you assume that a particle
has both a defined position and momentum, for example,
between measurements, i.e. when you don't look, that
leads to contradictions with experiment. This was first
hinted at by Einstein, Podolski and Rosen (EPR) in
1935; and later refined and experimentally proven.
(I am a little bit imprecise above, but how things
are today in physics is accurately described).
Without getting technical, if there are things in the
world that are not in all circumstances part of our
minds (physical theories), isn't then a problem in
our theories ? (I am not suggesting an answer here,
just presenting the question).
Can we understand ourselves, as (say) astrology tries ?
Say, I understand everything about myself. Isn't then my
understanding of myself not also part of me ? But isn't
that more than what I knew before, which was supposedly
everything about myself ?
Can we understand the world ? Since we are ourselves
part of the world, wouldn't that only be possible if
we could understand ourselves too ?
I have a retrograde Mercury, and one thing that is
maybe characteristic of it, is that I am better (at least
when posting under my real name) at asking or answering
questions than at formulating or critisising statements.
So, I think much of the above says a lot about Hermes,
including in Astrology, but mostly between the words.
Finally, here is the beginning of 10 from the Tao Te
Ching, in Richard Wilhelm's translation, translated by
me from german to english:
Can you form your soul, so that it encompasses the One,
without dispersing yourself ?
See http://www.geocities.com/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html
for the original and also for about 60 more translations
of the Tao Te Ching (including 33 to english).
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Pete P wrote:
> I'm re-sending this since it looks like Mercury decided to indulge his
> trickery and kidnap my original post - probably in revenge for me
> calling him a monkey!
>
> -------------------
> I got a nice surprise on Saturday.
> When I checked my bank balance I saw that I'd received a very welcome
> tax rebate from Her Majesty's Inland Revenue. When I checked my transits
> I saw that retro Mercury was in my 11th ( Topical houses ), exactly
> opposing my Sun and trine my N.Node. The Sun rules my 10th, while
> Mercury rules my 11th ( traditionally, "boons from the monarch" ).
> Seeing this, it has made me question somewhat Bernadette Brady's
> contention in "The Eagle and The Lark", that the houses ruled by a
> transiting planet are the ones changed as a result of the transit, while
> it is the *natal* position of that planet that is the "cause" of the
> event. I'm now beginning to think that Noel Tyl may be right when he
> says that it's the house *ruled* by the planet making the transit ( or
> the arc, or whatever ) that shows where the energy is coming from.
>
> Thanks very much Hermes, ya moonwalking little monkey! :)
> --
> Pete
I was wondering if it was really the word "monkey" that
disturbed Hermes and not maybe the word "moonwalking".
Mercury is sort of bound to the sun, can get out of
conjunction, but never even fully into a semi-sextile
(I think 28 degrees from the sun is the most).
All other planets except the moon are slower than
Mercury and they go retrograde sometimes, so at least
sometimes Mercury and the other planets can get
together a bit, especially Mercury and Venus.
But the moon is quite a bit faster than Mercury, just
rushes by, and when Mercury is fastest and might keep
up a little bit better, the sun is around too.
So maybe that explains some of Hermes' longing for
emotional depth, for some richer, deeper aspects of
life. I guess Hermes was maybe angry because he would
very much like to go "moonwalking".
Coming to think about it, this Saturday retrograde
Mercury actually gave me a "moonwalk"...
I was in a bookshop and standing in line to pay for something
(not a book) that I wanted to buy. There were two people in front
of me, a couple. To my right, on the counter, there was a basket
with a few small booklets that looked a bit old, like books that
nobody had wanted to buy. Of of them immediately catched my
attention. It was called "Die Demut des Blicks" ("the humility of
the look"). I took it and wanted to buy it, when Hermes came into
action: Apparently it was the 10th birthday of the bookshop at
this location, so every customer got one of the little books for
free. The couple in front of me took, as far as I could tell,
indiscriminately two books from the top and left. Chances would
have been great that they would have taken "mine" if I had not
taken it before, because it was pretty much lying on top.
The booklet turned out to be by an Italian writer called Susanna
Tamaro (the same first name as my mother, who has the moon in
Cancer). It described how she (ST) got into writing in two essays
and an interview, from her childhood where she was not good in
school, but what disturbed her parents was rather that she liked
to go for walks in nature and sports, which reminded them of her
grandfather who had been from the south Italy unlike the rest of
the family. She writes about her fears she had to go onto the
balcony, for fear to be hit by a meteorite. When she was an adult,
an earthquake destroyed everything and she went south to Rome to
study film making; actually she wanted to go south because she
thought that she could lead a lazier life there and she chose film
making solely because she could get a grant for that school. After
that she describes how she worked producing erotic movies, and how
she started to write, about how writing has to come from deep
within for her, how she usually picks a theme, then observes,
thinks and collects for several years until it then somehow boils
up and comes out. She says that she does not know what exactly it
will be, whether a cake or souffle. She also writes about how she
had tried for seven years to get one of her books published, but
exactly when she stopped trying it worked, because a friend of her
had sent a manuscript to a publisher she knew.
Rome was founded by twins, and is geographicaly in the
same relation to Switzerland as Sparta is to Delphi,
which is why Jean Richer (see reflection 2) links Sparta
to Gemini. The booklet is in German by publisher Diogenes.
I have not found an English translation for it, but at
least her "regular" books are available in English.
(Side remark: In the booklet was a little sheet by the
bookshop because of its 10th aniversary. It contained a
quote by Goethe: "Book dealers are all to the Devil,
there must be a separate Hell for them.")
So, in retrospect (&%/*&! retro Mercury), maybe this
would have been a better reflection 10 that the actual
one that I wrote. There I associated 10(th) with the MC,
which is, of course, also associated with the wish of
the mother for her child, hence also clearly connected
to the moon...
But in the end I guess it does not really matter in which
order and under which title things come.
Thanks all ("moonwalking" or not ;)
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
Reflections - 45039
Hi there.
This is reflection 11 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
THTH'THHH'HHHH'THHH'H = 45039:
> Millions of associations with each star sign have evolved during
> thousands of years. Moreover, each individual picks out certain
> themes, modifies and extends them. It is by no means possible to
> reproduce the full richness here, or even only to hint at all of
> the most commonly found themes. All that can be given here, is an
> idea of the scope. Please consult some further literature, maybe
> starting with [4], before you draw conclusions and maybe prematurely
> assign guilt to yourself or to others for some event*s* that have
> happened in your life.
The discoveries document is very broad. It presents
new ideas that are state-of-the-art in at least these
disciplines: Physics, astrology, philosophy, history
and psychology. Getting that done without introducing
any blunt errors (to my current knowledge) was very
hard work. Each paragraph has been written, discarded
and then completely rewritten at least 20 times. Thus
it sort of still contains the "ghosts" and the power
of all the previous versions.
Especially the deepest sections, namely the ones about
astrological ages, including their connection also to
the holocaust, first contained lots of factual errors.
In the end, after researching lots of facts, I wrote
all of that in a single flow, on a morning in November,
near the end of Scorpio 2001. That event was framed by
two others, namely the first snow of the coming winter
(which connects it to the improvised acknowledgement,
which was written during the last snow of the previous
winter) and the realization that the numbers 1 to 4
can be identified best with fire-air-water-earth.
(See http://www.exactphilosophy.net/fewmore.pdf for a
detailed timeline of when I wrote what. Essentially I
wrote the main text from beginning to end during an
astrological year between Aries 2001 and Pisces 2002.)
All in all, I think I have sufficiently fulfilled my
responsibility towards the world, by giving it my best.
I also think that I have done enough to get people's
attention. I have published my discoveries on the web
and notified people both generally in about 200 usenet
posts and specifically, by writing to people like Liz
Greene, Robert Hand, Rupert Sheldrake, Claude Weiss,
and others. All have remained essentially silent; some
of the men after initially showing some interest.
My reflection posts seem not to go unnoticed, though.
The day I wrote reflection 2, where I mentioned a
book by Jean Richer about the correspondence between
areas in Greece and the zodiac, amazon.com had two
copies of the book in stock; a day later it was on
backorder. Of course the books could in principle
have been ordered independently of my post, but
since it is about such a special and not well known
topic, that seems at least very unlikely.
So, who is responsible now for the future fate of my
discoveries ? My responsibility has clearly dimished
to an almost unnoticable level. I have written them
down and made them as much public as I could with my
limited means regarding the latter. Especially in my
posts here at aat I have exposed my way of thinking
in detail and found quite some interesting things,
with the help by others here.
So the main responsibility is now with the people,
especially astrologers, who are in positions that
would enable them to give my discoveries more public
attention. That does not mean that they should do
that, it only means that it is their responsibility
now, because they have the means to do it or not.
(Note that I am not addressing people posting here).
It is my feeling that the people from the generation
with Pluto in Leo, who are in such positions now, are
often a bit too much in love with their own creations,
which I can understand - after all, I have the sun in
Leo. But only because I analyzed some of their things,
does not mean that I destroyed them, that I betrayed
their works or lessened them. They were an important
source for me; especially the works of Liz Greene,
because they contain practically no bluntly wrong
statements, which was initially crucial for me.
The main myth that Liz Greene considers regarding
Virgo (her sun sign and the sign of my generation),
is the one about the Kore/Persephone who is taken
by Hades into the underworld. Her mother, Demeter,
at one point stops nature until she gets her back
(although not completely). I am not that extreme,
but my feeling of justice has come to some point at
which I have enough.
I still like writing these reflections and posting
here, so I will continue that. But other than that
I will do absolutely nothing to promote or otherwise
help the discoveries to become more widely known.
This newsgroup is very fertile and protected ground
for new things to grow, I guess related to its birth
date, which is just a week after 9/11. There is the
Phoenix (related to at least two of the moderators
here) that comes out of the ashes. It is also to me
the "ugly duckling" that will turn into a swan, also
because I noticed through Pete P's Paran series that
I have Quaoar rising with Sadr setting. Now, Sadr is
the heart of Cygnus, the swan, symbolizing also the
heart of Nemesis who took Zeus in disguise of a swan
to her heart, out of which emerged 4 children. Quaoar
was discovered in June 2002, just two weeks before I
published my discoveries.
In about 5 years, the progressed chart of 9/11 will
align with the birth chart of this place. I know
this is an unusual way of looking at things, but it
might still hint at some things to happen then.
(Sorry for relatively little *direct* astrological
content in this post (Merc still r when written),
this should be different in the next reflection).
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com (Alain Stalder, 15 Sep 2003)
Reflections - 50000
Hi there.
This is reflection 12 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
This time I was simply interested in the meaning of
Quaoar, the transplutonian "planet"/Kuiper Belt object
that was discovered in June 2002. So I used Quaoar's
number (50000) to point into the discoveries:
[Section 3.9.4 Gemini, Life]
> The axis Gemini-Sagittarius is about interface vs.
> overview and about pla*n*ning vs. improvising.
Let me use an indirect approach, a bit in the way that
a Chimpanse is using a stick to extract bugs from a
piece of wood, namely almost looking away, pretending
disinterest and apparently just randomly playing around
with the stick and the piece of wood. That is, in my
experience, very similar to how new things are invented
by people, namely by finding a good balance between
improvising/playing and logical thinking/planning.
(Side remark: So the direct approach, namely simply
looking at lots of charts with Quaoar and looking for
patterns, will only be covered very little here. To
make my approach maybe a little more tangible, let me
broaden the background somewhat in a reply to this post,
as soon as it pops up at groups.google.com)
The number 50 in 50000 is 5 x 10, is about ideas (5)
about balancing ideas (10=5+5), or the other way
round, about balancing ideas (10) about ideas (5).
That hints at maybe some philosophical meanings.
Quaoar sings and dances the world into existence
(see http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar).
But does he plan what emerges ? Does he consciously
plan how what emerges will look like ? Maybe it is
sort of halfway between the possibilities, that he
is partially planning and observing what happens,
but also that a lot what is happening is rather the
realization of unconscious, collective intensions
that had built up previously.
Quaoar is mostly a bit further out from the sun than
Pluto. Pluto's moon, Charon, is about the same size
as Quaoar (Pluto is about twice their size). The main
difference is that Charon is closely bound to Pluto,
but Quaoar is free.
The name Charon is very similar to Chiron, although
there may not be a direct ethymological connection
between the names (Robert Graves gives meanings of
"fierce brightness" and "hand", respectively). But
symbolically they are similar. Chiron travels between
the orbits of Saturn and Uranus, betweem the outermost
individual planet and the first collective one, while
Charon is the ferryman that connects our world with
the underworld. So both are travellers between the
world of the conscious/individual and the world of
the unconscious/collective.
According to the web site indicated above (the site
of Chad Trujillo, the discoverer of Quaoar), Quaoar
was discovered 2002-06-04 05:41:40 UTC at Palomar
(first image taken, first looked at 2002-06-05 at
10:48:08 PDT).
Not going into details, the discovery was shortly
after the third exact opposition between Saturn and
Pluto. Both were on the axis Gemini-Sagittarius, as
well as Quaoar (in Sagittarius).
Let me simply leave it at that for the moment,
without drawing any conclusions.
(One more: The tribal elder Mark Acuna who is the
originator of the piece of mythology about Quaoar,
has his CV listed on the web; including his Aries
birthdate, maybe also resonating a bit with a male
creator god: http://www.arboretum.org/acuna.htm).
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
Pete P wrote:
> As a matter of fact, at the time I was born - 22.27hrs GMT, on March
> 13th 1954 - Mercury was stationary, and turned direct about 5 hours
> later.
> It was, to all intents and purposes, motionless.
> --
> Pete
Mine is very similarly placed, going at about the
same "speed" (5'/day), yet about 20hrs from going
direct again. Maybe because of that or because it
is just at the end of the 12th house, it often
feels to me like "Just one more step back, *then*
I will walk forward again", until maybe my cardial
planets push me forward again.
(1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich, 03:12 UTC; moon in Aries,
Jupiter/Venus/Mars moving swiftly ahead in Cancer).
delphi29@excite.com
> This time I was simply interested in the meaning of
> Quaoar, the transplutonian "planet"/Kuiper Belt object
> that was discovered in June 2002. So I used Quaoar's
> number (50000) to point into the discoveries:
>
> [Section 3.9.4 Gemini, Life]
> > The axis Gemini-Sagittarius is about interface vs.
> > overview and about pla*n*ning vs. improvising.
Is the world discovered or invented ?
Physicist J.A. Wheeler has devised an interesting
thought experiment, related to quantum mechanics,
about measurement. Take first a normal game of
guessing what somebody thinks of. Say you think of
a snow ball and I ask "Is it white ?", "Is it cold ?",
"Is it a snow ball ?", answers "Yes", "Yes", "Yes".
Now, imagine a line with people that I ask in turn.
The first person can imagine anything, say a cloud.
I ask "Is it white ?", answer "Yes". The next person
in line has to imagine something that fits with the
previous answer, say a snow man. I ask "Is it cold ?",
answer "Yes". The third person has again to imagine
something that fits all previous answers, say a snow
ball. I ask "Is it a snow ball ?", answer "Yes".
So, although "nature" gave me a definite answer to
each of my questions, she had not actually made up
her mind until I asked her my last question. By
asking a different question at any point, I would
even have had the chance to get a different answer.
In 1950, C.G. Jung wrote his famous essay about
synchronicity. There he also mentions the I Ching
and differences between Western and Eastern thinking.
In science, you try to force nature to answer your
questions, you try to squeeze her into a corner so
that she cannot escape any more. In the I Ching,
in contrast, you let go of things, you drop coins
or other things, you let go of them.
To me, that is often the only way to get something
that is really wanted, to let go of it, to drop it,
because the only way to really get something is when
it wants you too, and to find that out, you have to
give it the freedom to decide on its own.
By writing about Quaoar, do I discover something or
am I more making something up about it ? Probably
undecidable with certainty, but let me still point
out some maybe more personal takes:
Other than relatively weak squares to Venus and
Jupiter (about 5 deg), I have a quincunx between
Quaoar in Libra and Chiron in Pisces in my chart.
Quaoar's number 50000 is also 5 x 10^4 so there is
also a relation to reality (4, earth), which makes
Quaoar maybe a philosopher and physicist, like me.
Then again, I have 4 planets in the 12th house,
the number of this reflection, so my take is maybe
still of some universality and general interest.
Pluto is about fate, absoluteness, but in some
sense he is also limited to humanity, has maybe
only ultimate power about decisions about human
lives and deaths, but maybe not so much about
nature in general. Maybe that is what Quaoar is
about (at least when it is farther out from Earth
than Pluto*). Physics comes from "physis", which
has a multitude of meanings, all around nature,
creating, natural evolution of things, life, etc.
So, in the end, is Quaoar a physicist ?
(Or would people like it to be a physicist ?)
Of course, with the moon in Leo, maybe the above
is a bit too self-centered. So let me end with an
interesting further association between 5 and the
planet Mercury: Mercury is retrograde about 1/5th
of the time, which hints again at a link between
free will and retrograde Mercury (reflection)...
delphi29@excite.com
--
* Until about 2052, Quaoar remains further out than
Pluto, presently Quaoar is even quite a bit further
out than Pluto, namely 44 compared to 31 Astronomical
Units.
Reflections - 76459
Hi there.
This is reflection 13 from a random passage of
"A few new discoveries in physics" by Alain Stalder
(http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf).
For an introduction to this series, check out these
posts from June 2003:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306220357.57cc382e%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261303.16ae3d8%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0306261941.ffeb7e4%40posting.google.com
This time the coins pointed to 3.13 The Age of Pisces,
page 16, left column, HTTH'THTH'THTH'THTH'H = 76459:
> Islamic religion tries to achieve justice already in real life,
> before paradise. Giving to the poor and learning to cheat in
> order to achieve justice are considered virtues, although the
> latter may not be openly admitted, exactly because it is so.
> The first comes from the fact that at t*h*e end of summer,
> nature gives without expecting anything in exchange and
> similarly, people give away those parts of the harvest that
> they have in abundance and cannot preserve for the winter. The
> second is because, in order to stay true to herself, Virgo
> sometimes has to cheat, also in order to escape the often
> somewhat naive and inflexible visions of the previous sign,
> Leo. In that sense, cheating, when used wisely and with measure,
> can also be a means to achieve justice for a woman who is
> physically weaker than her man.
Perfectness is not reached when there is nothing to add,
but when there is nothing to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery*
Thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
* French pilot and author of "The Little Prince" and more.
1900-06-29 09:06 UTC, Lyon (France)
Source: http://www.astrologie.ws/exup.htm
KONEC
I tried something new, maybe spurred by this year's
close encounter of Mars with Earth (and maybe related
to this moment with Mars stationary in conjunction
with Uranus, and sun with Venus and Moon in Libra).
I looked at Pluto and Quaoar between 1500 and 2100
and looked at their relative distances. Turns out
they came relatively close two times:
1789-04-20 (19.5)
2003-03-24 (13.5)
The first moment was about 3 months before the
French Revolution, the year after Kant had published
the second (and final) edition of his "Critique of
Pure Reason", and also relatively close to the US
Revolution (1776) and the discovery of Uranus (1781).
If you look at the relation between Quaoar and Pluto
the usual way (i.e. their aspects), you find a single
conjunction in the same time frame, namely 1996-12-12.
There were squares around 1507, 1624 and 1709.
I am not sure what exactly to make of the new method,
but seems at least interesting enough to look a bit
closer into it (say, by expanding the time frame).
Libra, as the middle Air sign (a balance of Fire and
Water) often has deep but partial insights into the
world. Libra may initially overlook some important
details, which others often use to attack it, but
often in the end something interesting still remains.
delphi29@excite.com
John Roth wrote:
> "Maria Alexander" <nightfethr@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:bbe32898.0309261234.7a3f9eb6@posting.google.com...
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3142582.stm
> >
> > Interesting to see the Sagittarius galaxy undergo this process as
> > Pluto travels through the sign.
>
> Snort! This has been going on for millions of years, and is
> likely to continue for quite a few more millions of years.
> Even the discovery of the dwarf galaxy occured in
> 1994, a couple of years before Pluto entered Sag.
>
> The current announcement is of a good visualization
> of the process.
>
> Nice writeup here, including a good picture
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/09/25/space.cannibal.reut/index.html
>
> John Roth
Here is some more info and links...
It appears that at least part of the "Sagittarius Dwarf
Elliptical Galaxy" was already discovered by Charles
Messier in 1778-07-24 (M54, believed to be part of our
own Milky Way and not a galaxy on its own until 1994):
http://www.obspm.fr/messier/m/m054.html
http://www.obspm.fr/messier/more/sagdeg.html
The galaxy appears to be located near Zeta Sagittarius,
at a tropical longitude of roughly 12 deg Capricorn:
http://www.obspm.fr/messier/map/Sgr.html
For a more symbolic take, maybe the following numerical
simulation of how a smaller galaxy is eaten by a bigger
galaxy, might be interesting:
http://www.astro.wesleyan.edu/~kvj/mw.html
http://www.astro.wesleyan.edu/~kvj/tail.mpg
(Ignoring how scientifically accurate the simulation
actually is, I see maybe sagittarian themes like the
"sacrifice" and the building of a ring; or, maybe due
to the moon currently in Scorpio, stinging of the
mother galaxy by the child galaxy, etc.)
For me a good part of the difference between astrology
and astronomy comes from the difference between women
and men. Women can identify with their mothers, because
they came out of them and their daughters will again
come out of them. So women tend to identify more with
what they see. I once looked into a book by an Italian
astrophysicist, Fiorella Terenzi, in which she described
how what she observed at night in the sky appeared to
correlate symbolically with everyday events in her life.
For men identification with the father is much less
direct. Put more briefly, there is the duality between
"me here, stars there" and "me and the stars are one".
delphi29@excite.com
--
keyword: exactphilosophy
* Distance Quaoar-Pluto
+ Distance Pluto-Neptune
0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 AU
Year |....|....|....|....|....|....|....|....|....|....|
-2980 + *
-2960 + *
-2940 + *
-2920 + *
-2900 + *
-2880 + *
-2860 + *
-2840 + *
-2820 + *
-2800 +*
-2780 *
-2760 + *
-2740 + *
-2720 + *
-2700 + *
-2680 + *
-2660 + *
-2640 + *
-2620 + *
-2600 + *
-2580 + *
-2560 + *
-2540 + *
-2520 + *
-2500 + *
-2480 + *
-2460 + *
-2440 + *
-2420 + *
-2400 + *
-2380 + *
-2360 + *
-2340 + *
-2320 + *
-2300 + *
-2280 + *
-2260 + *
-2240 + *
-2220 + *
-2200 +*
-2180 * +
-2160 * +
-2140 *
-2120 + *
-2100 + *
-2080 + *
-2060 + *
-2040 + *
-2020 + *
-2000 + *
-1980 + *
-1960 + *
-1940 * +
-1920 * +
-1900 * +
-1880 * +
-1860 * +
-1840 * +
-1820 * +
-1800 * +
-1780 * +
-1760 * +
-1740 * +
-1720 * +
-1700 * +
-1680 * +
-1660 * +
-1640 * +
-1620 * +
-1600 * +
-1580 * +
-1560 * +
-1540 * +
-1520 * +
-1500 * +
-1480 * +
-1460 + *
-1440 + *
-1420 + *
-1400 + *
-1380 * +
-1360 * +
-1340 * +
-1320 * +
-1300 * +
-1280 * +
-1260 * +
-1240 * +
-1220 +*
-1200 + *
-1180 + *
-1160 + *
-1140 + *
-1120 + *
-1100 + *
-1080 + *
-1060 + *
-1040 + *
-1020 + *
-1000 + *
-980 + *
-960 + *
-940 + *
-920 + *
-900 + *
-880 + *
-860 + *
-840 + *
-820 + *
-800 + *
-780 + *
-760 + *
-740 + *
-720 + *
-700 + *
-680 + *
-660 + *
-640 + *
-620 + *
-600 + *
-580 + *
-560 + *
-540 + *
-520 + *
-500 + *
-480 + *
-460 + *
-440 + *
-420 + *
-400 + *
-380 + *
-360 *
-340 *
-320 +*
-300 + *
-280 + *
-260 + *
-240 * +
-220 * +
-200 * +
-180 * +
-160 * +
-140 * +
-120 + *
-100 + *
-80 + *
-60 + *
-40 + *
-20 + *
0 +*
+20 * +
+40 * +
+60 * +
+80 * +
+100 * +
+120 * +
+140 * +
+160 * +
+180 * +
+200 * +
+220 * +
+240 * +
+260 * +
+280 * +
+300 * +
+320 * +
+340 * +
+360 * +
+380 *
+400 +*
+420 *
+440 * +
+460 * +
+480 * +
+500 + *
+520 + *
+540 + *
+560 + *
+580 + *
+600 + *
+620 * +
+640 * +
+660 * +
+680 * +
+700 * +
+720 * +
+740 +*
+760 + *
+780 + *
+800 + *
+820 + *
+840 + *
+860 + *
+880 + *
+900 + *
+920 + *
+940 + *
+960 + *
+980 + *
+1000 + *
+1020 + *
+1040 + *
+1060 + *
+1080 + *
+1100 + *
+1120 + *
+1140 + *
+1160 + *
+1180 + *
+1200 + *
+1220 + *
+1240 + *
+1260 + *
+1280 + *
+1300 + *
+1320 + *
+1340 + *
+1360 + *
+1380 + *
+1400 + *
+1420 + *
+1440 + *
+1460 + *
+1480 + *
+1500 + *
+1520 + *
+1540 + *
+1560 + *
+1580 * +
+1600 * +
+1620 * +
+1640 * +
+1660 * +
+1680 * +
+1700 *
+1720 * +
+1740 * +
+1760 * +
+1780 * +
+1800 * +
+1820 * +
+1840 * +
+1860 * +
+1880 + *
+1900 + *
+1920 + *
+1940 + *
+1960 *+
+1980 * +
+2000 * +
+2020 * +
+2040 * +
+2060 * +
+2080 * +
+2100 * +
+2120 * +
+2140 * +
+2160 * +
+2180 * +
+2200 * +
+2220 * +
+2240 * +
+2260 * +
+2280 * +
+2300 * +
+2320 +*
+2340 + *
+2360 + *
+2380 + *
+2400 + *
+2420 *+
+2440 * +
+2460 *
+2480 + *
+2500 + *
+2520 + *
+2540 + *
+2560 + *
+2580 + *
+2600 *
+2620 * +
+2640 * +
+2660 * +
+2680 * +
+2700 *
+2720 + *
+2740 + *
+2760 + *
+2780 + *
+2800 + *
+2820 + *
+2840 + *
+2860 + *
+2880 + *
+2900 + *
+2920 + *
+2940 + *
+2960 + *
+2980 + *
I wrote:
> I looked at Pluto and Quaoar between 1500 and 2100
> and looked at their relative distances.
I have expanded the range to -3000 to 3000 and also
looked at the distance Neptune-Pluto. I have posted
the data (ASCII plot) to alt.test:
http://groups.google.ch/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0309280118.1a45d41a%40posting.google.com
There are resonances around the years -1560, 20,
420, 2000 and 2420 (which coincide also roughly
with the times when the three planets were close
together seen from earth).
I am drawing no conclusions.
delphi29@excite.com
Less is more, at least here. So let me just cite where
the coins pointed, namely somewhere into the "two
sexless beings" in section 3.15:
> In sumerian mythology, it was two sexless beings that were
> not susceptible to the powers of the great mother who rules
> the underworld who rescued Inanna from it.
In two days is Astrodienst's 20th birthday; see
Liz Greene's gentle analysis of the company's chart
(1983-10-04 16:00 Zurich 15:00 UTC), and may I hint
at the placement of the nodes...
http://www.astro.com
http://www.astro.com/people/chart_e.htm
delphi29@excite.com
Martin Lewicki wrote:
> McCanney's physics and astrophysics is naive and even silly.
Try this: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Bye everybody,
delphi29@excite.com
I have collected all my usenet posts (of which most
are related to astrology) into a single document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.pdf
Feel free to pick up any of the seeds in there.
Me? I guess my excursion into astrology, however deep
and intensive it may have been, was essentially
a saturnian - once in a life in public - thing.
For people who fear my web log, I have also posted
the above document to alt.binaries.misc...
(subject: odyssey (a virtual play)
Don't forget to check out the "Disclaimer" at the
end of the document, only the first paragraph is in
Legalese, the rest contains at least a few more seeds...
Bye and best wishes to all,
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote (as Delphi Twentine):
> Me? I guess my excursion into astrology, however deep
> and intensive it may have been, was essentially
> a saturnian - once in a life in public - thing.
That may be formulated a bit to harshly or even
arrogantly (Sun in Libra). Let me try: Richard P.
Feynman, who had Saturn in Leo, once in his life
made a one-man art exhibition at Caltech. A bit
later at an exhibition (with others) at the LA
County Museum of Art, Feynman was approached by
a guy called Maurice Tuchman, "who knew what he
was talking about when it came to art":
> "You know that you are never going to draw again."
> "What? That's ridiculous! Why should I never..."
> "Because you've had a one-man show and you are
> only an amateur."
> Although I did draw after that, I never worked as
> hard, with the same energy and intensity as I did
> before. I never sold a drawing after that, either.
(Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!, Vintage, 1992)
Will I never do astrology and post again ? Probably
not strictly, but as it feels now (just after my last
major Pluto transit (3rd past Uranus, after 3 past
Pluto, and some past the moon), never again with the
same energy and intensity. Thanks again for the
opportunity to say what I had to say here...
Alain Stalder
astalder@excactphilosophy.net
..
Vero wrote:
> Isn't things like honesty, caring about others and other normative issues
> beyond astrological determination? At least on a sign level.
I agree.
For me, astrology describes the forces acting on people,
the wishes of others (individually and collectively),
but not how people react to these forces, not how one
handles fate and opportunities.
Greek mythology is a lot about opportunity. Cancer, say,
can be Heracles fighting the Hydra, can be the Hydra,
can be the crab that bites Heracles, can be the swamps
where the fight takes place, etc. But, of course, under
some circumstances, it becomes sarcastic to speak of
choice. If you are an actual son, choosing the role of
the mother is more difficult, and, since others have to
get fitting roles too, you may effectively loose that
choice. On the other hand, there are other myths to
choose from, and the fates are always interested in a
new and better way to fit all the myths to everybody.
I am returning to some previous themes, but with a single
new twist, which is the reason for this post (marked below
with a *)...
Last week I have seen two movies, Lars (von) Trier's
"Dogville" and Quentin Tarantino's 4th film, "Kill Bill".
Although they are quite different, they share a quality
that feels to me like related to the coming entry of
Uranus into Pisces, namely that both movies are centered
around a single woman that appears in almost every scene
(Nicole Kidman resp. Uma Thurman). Both movies are about
issues of compassion and justice and, in both movies,
the women make vital decisions and cut (which also fits
with the middle of autumn, already announced by Venus
in Scorpio).
Let me broaden the frame first. Many recent blockbuster
movies are connected to the east (resp. the west seen
from Hollywood): The two matrix sequals are mainly done
in Sydney, the lord of the rings is turned in New Zealand,
episode two of star wars was (if I remember correctly)
also turned partially in Sydney. Nicole Kidman is from
Australia (Sydney, daugther of a doctor); Kill Bill was
turned in China for apparently a significant part.
Dogville is more like a piece of theater, with the houses
of the village drawn as white lines on the floor. As such
it can also be seen as a variation of Durrenmatt's
internationally best known piece where an old lady from
the US returns to a small village in Europe. Only here,
it is first not clear that the lady is already quite old
in experience, which I relate to the fact that Uranus in
Pisces is only quite young (at least it must have been
in Pisces when part of the movie had been made).
But now to "Kill Bill". Uma Karuna Thurman was born at
the beginning of the 70's, 1970-04-29 13:50 Boston MA
17:50 UTC: http://astrozine.astrology.com/uthurman.html.
Her Mercury is almost stationary in Taurus, at a thight
square to her moon in Aquarius. There is another thight
and special configuration in her chart, namely a
conjunction between Jupiter and Quaoar* right at the
transition between Libra and Scorpio (less than 1 deg
into Scorpio). Incidentally, Venus transited that spot
when the movie was released about 10 days ago.
Uma Thurman's mother is of swedish origin and her father,
in her words, "when very young, was the first American
to be ordained as a Buddhist monk". Also in her words
"When the Dalai Lama comes to America, it's my father who
is his host.", apparently not a negligible east-west tie
(see http://www2.brimac.com/~gilgamar/uma/biography.html).
Her first name "Uma" is the name of the "White Goddess",
also known as Parvati, the consort of Shiva. Apparently
Uma means "light" but she is also called "Lady of the
Mountains", just like Uranus means (according to Robert
Graves) king of the mountains.
Some info about the white goddess:
http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/goddess/uma.html
(Note that most of the above information is from the web
and not additionally verified. In my experience not all
of such information would survive further verification
in the literal sense - but as far as symbolic contents
goes, there is in my experience usually no significant
difference).
So, will Uranus in Pisces be just pure harmony ? No sign
is that way. Pisces are at the end of the cycle. Since
they have to prepare the next cycle, they hardly destroy
anything, but when they do, it is final.
In a current thread at aam, the question was raised
whether Pisces fits with Osama Bin Laden. As far as I
know, his birth date is not actually known, but I also
remember Liz Greene mentioning (in Astrology for Lovers?)
Ataturk as an example for Pisces. Water signs live for
and from feelings; if they cannot find suffering to heal,
they are often tempted to create it themselves.
At a post to aam shortly after Quaoar was discovered, it
was also speculated that the "chaos out of order" bit in
the mythology about Quaoar might relate Quaoar to Virgo.
In that respect, I remember that Robert Graves translates
Persephone both with "bringer" and "fixer" of destruction:
"[The Greek Myths, 24.2] Persephone (from *phero* and *phonos*,
'she who brings destruction'), also called Persephatta at Athens
(from *ptersis* and *ephapto*, 'she who fixes destruction') and
Proserpina ('the fearful one')."
Athene, also related to Virgo, is not typically seen as
a warrior like Uma Thurman ("Black Mamba") in Kill Bill.
But at least Athene beat Ares (Mars) two times:
"[The Greek Myths, 19.b] Athene, a much more skillful fighter than
[Ares], has twice worsted him in battle." "[TGM 25.a"] she gets no
pleasure from battle [...] but rather from settling disputes [...]
she bears no arms in time of peace and, if the ever needs any, will
usually borrow a set from Zeus. Her mercy is great: when the judges'
votes are equal in a criminal trial at the Areiopagus, she always
gives a casting vote to liberate the accused. Yet, once engaged in
battle, she never loses the day, even against Ares himself, being
better grounded in tactics and strategy than he [...]"
Not astonishingly, "Kill Bill" comes in two volumes...
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote (as Alain Stalder):
: H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
: the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
: People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
: the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
: more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
: more happy (e).
Usenet was born in autumn or at least late 1979,
which puts the northern node into Virgo. The
anarchic "soup" of unmoderated usenet, where
practically anybody's posts gets the same sort
of non-attention (it's all relative there),
represents the instinctive southern node, the
instinctive, impulsive replies that make many
people give up posting at all.
Fortunately, groups.google.com has collected a
large part of all usenet posts, as a harvest
that is now ready to be analyzed and sorted,
in my opinion, best using astrology:
Detach from the idea of real people and redefine
people as screen names. Then you get a "birth",
namely the first post under that screen name, and
you get events in that "life", that you can then
analyze in terms of transits to the birth time,
of the current time, of birth time and transits
of the group the posts take place, etc.
(Note that this is maybe not as different as in
real life: A birth chart gives away a lot of
information about a real person, but looking at
charts of parents, ancestors, home town, etc. and
looking at names etc. almost always broadens the
frame in interesting ways).
So you get to the second data for billions of
events that happened to millions of people "in the
matrix", and most of it is not even real content -
which would be very difficult to analyze - but
instead is often fights without much real content,
or misunderstanding because people do not see
each other in usenet, etc.
I know this post is a bit pushy (sun into Scorpio),
and I am certainly not saying that the above idea
makes scientific proof of astrology a piece of cake,
but I do consider it a significant contribution.
(If you think not, collect a few billion statements
of people of all ages, races, classes, etc. about
almost any topic imaginable together with date and
time and then get back to me ;)
delphi29@exite.com
Sharyn wrote:
[Link to interview with Bernadette Brady]
> http://www.astrozero.btinternet.co.uk/brady_2.htm
>
> Excerpt:
>
> "[...]So it occurred to me that it would be interesting to revisit the
> growing pile of papers in the corner of my office but this time, re-run all
> the research using old rulerships.
>
> I was, and still am, doing all the data entry by hand and with over 1200
> parent-child relationships in my experiment it took a while to re examine
> every chart and re-enter the new correlations. However, the results were so
> interesting that I could not sleep! Every night I would work on the data,
> constantly thinking that if I kept entering more data the impressive
> statistical results which had emerged would fade away. I do not think I
> slept for a week. And I'm still very excited about this work, because it
> shows that using traditional rulerships, I get statistically very
> significant results. This doesn't mean that the modern rulers don't work;
> it's just that, in the way I'm looking at parent/child relationships - in
> terms of "how we hand things on" - modern rulerships are not as strong as
> traditional rulerships. [...]"
I think this part of the interview is very interesting.
Let me simply pick up the example she gives just below
in the interview, and what could be concluded if it was
actually statistically proven (the interview was in 2000,
and at that time she was still very careful with making
any definite claims):
Any of the old 7 planets in conjunction with either AC,
MC, DC or IC (9.25 deg orb) gives more than random
correlation between associated sign containing sun,
moon or AC. That is not true for the three new planets
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto and the signs they got
associated with after their discoveries.
Can you conclude that, say, Jupiter still contains most
of the symbolism of both Sagittarius and Pisces, and
that Neptune only got a weak bit of Pisces ?
Not necessarily. Maybe parent's wishes are only allowed
to influence the 7 personal planets, while the 3 new,
collective planets are reserved for inhertiting
collective purposes.
The crucial point (still assuming that the correlation
provably exists) is that statements like mine just above
would then become testable. One could try to see if children
born in the same country and/or within the same decade (say)
carry Uranus, Neptune and Pluto at specific corresponding
places in their birth charts.
Is anybody aware of the current state of research ?
Side remark: It is interesting that with old rulerships
you would have 4 planets responsible for cardinality
(moon, Venus, Mars, Saturn) and 4 for fixity (sun, Venus,
Mars, Saturn), but only 2 for mutability (Mercury and
Jupiter).
delphi29@excite.com
Ray Murphy wrote:
> In article <d12bedf0.0310231420.731d6ecc@posting.google.com>,
> delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine) wrote:
>
> >I wrote (as Alain Stalder):
> >: H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
> >: the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
> >: People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
> >: the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
> >: more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
> >: more happy (e).
> >
> >Usenet was born in autumn or at least late 1979,
> >which puts the northern node into Virgo. The
> >anarchic "soup" of unmoderated usenet, where
> >practically anybody's posts gets the same sort
> >of non-attention (it's all relative there),
> >represents the instinctive southern node, the
> >instinctive, impulsive replies that make many
> >people give up posting at all.
> >
> >Fortunately, groups.google.com has collected a
> >large part of all usenet posts, as a harvest
> >that is now ready to be analyzed and sorted,
> >in my opinion, best using astrology:
>
> RM: It will also be interesting to analyse the data from a
> non-astrological perspective because there WILL be noticeable themes
> where people are seen to continually use words with a particular
> theme.
> It would be difficult of course to filter out repetitive paragraphs
> which are used when they are used again for responses, but I would
> imagine that the theme would not vary too much from a meticulous
> search of unique paragraphs or sentences.
> If astrologers know the birth date of any individuals concerned, they
> will probably be able to see clearly if the *expected* strongest
> factors in a chart are showing up or not.
> >
> >Detach from the idea of real people and redefine
> >people as screen names. Then you get a "birth",
> >namely the first post under that screen name, and
> >you get events in that "life", that you can then
> >analyze in terms of transits to the birth time,
> >of the current time, of birth time and transits
> >of the group the posts take place, etc.
>
> RM: It's worth a look of course, but it sounds like a lot of hard
> work.
> An easy way to start would be to gather that data for
> volunteer-astrologers and see what transits were most frequently
> operative.
> I can process data like that immediately if anyone wants it done *if*
> the data is supplied as a text datafile.
After carefully reading your reply many times, I guess it is
most likely that you essentially got my idea. Let me still
repeat the two basic points of my idea in case somebody else
has been lead astray*:
I am talking about computers analyzing the data that is already
stored by groups.google.com. No need for volunteers to provide
any data -- they already posted!
I am not talking about birth dates of posters in real life, but
only about their births "in the matrix", defined by the first
post under a particular screen name.
Now some specifics:
Filtering out quotes is not very difficult for the way that most
posters quote. In addition, how and how much a poster quotes is
also a relatively easily quantifiable property, and hence likely
part of the analysis.
Of course, first experiments with this kind of analysis would
only use a small fraction of the data archived by Google (more
would, of course, require permission by Google and later maybe
even a collaboration might be useful). The last thing I would
do there is look at posts by astrologers. That immediately opens
up the following (probably justified) critical suspicion that
astrologers might consciously or unconsciously apply their
conscious beliefs about astrology to when and what they post.
Doing all this analysis is certainly hard work, even if in the
end computers will do most of the work. If one wants proof that
convinces the majority of scientists, it will have to be done by
skillfull researchers. As a physicist I might be a bit biased,
but in my opinion one would almost certainly need
a few physicists in the research group.
;) delphi29@excite.com
* For example, your sentence "An easy way to start would be to gather
that data for volunteer-astrologers and see what transits were most
frequently operative." could be read as collecting data of posts by
volunteer-astrologers, whereas you probably meant volunteer-astrologers
collecting data from usenet posts by any kind of posters - right ?
Thanks for the exposure, Ray.
It will not be up to me to make the judgment, though.
Good luck.
General farewell: My connecting of Quaoar to physics
comes from Douglas Adam's fifth book in the Hitchhiker's
trilogy, "Mostly Harmless". Besides having the first
occurrence (to my knowledge) of bullet time in that
book and many more funny and still philosopically deep
issues touched in the whole trilogy, the description
Douglas Adams gives of Planet X ("Rupert") is extremely
interesting (also explicitly mentioning astrology), in
particular that the extraterrestrials that lost their
mission info, except the info that they should observe
something, then decide to observe the planet Earth:
That is exactly what a physicist does, he observes
reality/nature, the element Earth, and he has no clue
at all what actually the mission is or whether there
is a mission at all. My drive to post is now fading
quickly (Pluto moving ahead), and I am feeling more
inclined to look into fundamental physical issues
again. Some of them will have to do indirectly with
astrology, and if I find out anything significant and
related to astrology, I will post it here. And I will
also take a look from time to time.
It is reported that Franz Kafka (who shares partially
some planets with me, especially Jupiter in Cancer in
the 12th house) told Max Brod to burn his manuscripts
after his (Kafka's) death, which Max Brod did not.
Somebody laconically commented about this something
along "if you want to burn manuscripts, you simply
light a match..."
So, if one really wants to stop posting, one simply...
--
Ray Murphy wrote:
> In article <delphi29-97FE8A.02034026102003@news.bluewin.ch>, Delphi
> Twentine <delphi29@excite.com> wrote:
[...]
> >After carefully reading your reply many times, I guess it is
> >most likely that you essentially got my idea. Let me still
> >repeat the two basic points of my idea in case somebody else
> >has been lead astray*:
>
> RM: I usually try to simplify my posts in order to increase the
> potential for multiple responses; after all, reading usenet posts is a
> bit like reading a newspaper; so the simplification of my previous
> post would account for your need to re-read it.
> Yes, I essentially got your idea, but I also saw other ways to use the
> google data - one of which is to compare the results beween real
> people and "usenet people".
> >
> >I am talking about computers analyzing the data that is already
> >stored by groups.google.com. No need for volunteers to provide
> >any data -- they already posted!
>
> RM: It's sounds like you mean searching for all posts with a
> particular identity, then saving the full text including date + times
> and then filtering and making datafiles of the dates + times for
> automatic processing on a PC.
> My reference to volunteers (or volunteer-astrologers as I put it) was
> made because it may not be ethical to take ALL of a person's
> statements and analyse them extensively without their permission AND
> use the results in any published work, so therefore until that
> question is decided, it seems that obtaining permission from
> volunteers would prevent any problems in relation to privacy. If
> however you are talking about times + dates then it's a different
> story.
>
> >I am not talking about birth dates of posters in real life, but
> >only about their births "in the matrix", defined by the first
> >post under a particular screen name.
>
> RM: There is sometimes only a small leap between a person's "birth in
> the matrix date" and their real birth date because of tell-tale
> markers which would be found in hundreds of posts, such as country,
> state, city, town, gender, age, occupation, hobbies, friends, car
> model, ISP etc.
> >
> >Now some specifics:
> >
> >Filtering out quotes is not very difficult for the way that most
> >posters quote.
>
> RM: Of course! Just tell the computer "Don't use any paragraph which
> has "<" marks.
>
> >In addition, how and how much a poster quotes is
> >also a relatively easily quantifiable property, and hence likely
> >part of the analysis.
>
> RM: Microsoft is already providing a service which tells us where
> every poster posts and when they started (under each of their email
> addresses). We can even look at a newsgroup and see who's who. For
> example a quick search for aamod will show that Ray Murphy has been
> the most prolific poster during the last year and Christine is the
> second most frequent poster.
> In that example anyone can see that while Christine posts a lot less
> than Ray, she actually has a higher percentage of replies, and this
> therefore makes her the most "interactive" astrologer on aamod.
> She will probably be blown away when she finds out :-))
> This of course would make any astrologer ask "What's in her natal
> chart?".
> >
> >Of course, first experiments with this kind of analysis would
> >only use a small fraction of the data archived by Google (more
> >would, of course, require permission by Google and later maybe
> >even a collaboration might be useful). The last thing I would
> >do there is look at posts by astrologers. That immediately opens
> >up the following (probably justified) critical suspicion that
> >astrologers might consciously or unconsciously apply their
> >conscious beliefs about astrology to when and what they post.
>
> RM: Yes sometimes astrologers would be aware of transits to their
> charts but it is highly unlikely that we would know what the Local
> Sidereal Time was when we hit the "send" button -- ie: know the
> transitting MC + Asc. (which is what we are talking about if we are
> using times).
> >
> >Doing all this analysis is certainly hard work, even if in the
> >end computers will do most of the work. If one wants proof that
> >convinces the majority of scientists, it will have to be done by
> >skillfull researchers. As a physicist I might be a bit biased,
> >but in my opinion one would almost certainly need
> >a few physicists in the research group.
>
> RM: I agree, but in the meantime we non-skillful researchers will get
> the ball rolling for you :-)
> >
> >;) delphi29@excite.com
>
> [from above]
> >* For example, your sentence "An easy way to start would be to gather
> >that data for volunteer-astrologers and see what transits were most
> >frequently operative." could be read as collecting data of posts by
> >volunteer-astrologers, whereas you probably meant volunteer-astrologers
> >collecting data from usenet posts by any kind of posters - right ?
>
> RM: No, I meant it the first way -- Volunteer-astrologers who give
> permission for their TEXT data (ie: posts) on google to be harvested
> and used in your experiment with a "birthdate" of first posting.
> Naturally the REAL birth data could be compared with the same material
> which was harvested.
> If you could get non-astrologer volunteers it would of course remove
> the problems of potential bias.
>
> Ray
Hi everybody. I think it might be appropriate also to
post a farewell to this group, as not to raise the
suspicion that I indiscriminately value the daughter
(aat, Virgo) above the mother (aam, Scorpio). But,
normally, the daughter is ultimately the future, and
although she will have to assume some of the tasks of
the mother, it is also understandable, legitimate and
necessary that not all of the mother's legacy will
be allowed to live on.
Let me use Freud's trick to take things literally and
then simply ask a few questions.
"Rulership question referred from AAT."
This is about rulership, about power, not unexpectedly
when the sun and a couple more planets are in Scorpio.
Of course, everybody is fighting for his or her issues
to survive and not be cut off, and Scorpio has also no
respect for the ones who do not fight (Mars). But it
should not be forgotten, in my opinion, that Scorpio,
since he has to penetrate boundaries, the ones of
others and his own, should also respect other people's
boundaries just as much as he respects his own.
Why do astrologers who spend their lives analyzing the
fates of others, analyzing client's relationship problems,
apparently fail to do this when it comes to arguments
among themselves ? Why is apparently nobody analyzing
the birth charts of aam, aat, of themselves and posters
who published their data ? Naively, I would have expected
that astrologers would be doing this privately all along
and conflicts would for the most time disappear before
they even had a chance to come up. In this season, this
of course raises the suspicion that maybe nobody genuinely
wants to resolve conflicts but only ignites them for
his/her personal advantage. Of course, this suspicion is
exaggerated, but to some degree, usually unconsciously and
only as one of many drives in people, that is often true.
For example, Ray's second reply to my post "Usenet" to
aat about a week ago, suggested Ray's shadow to contain
roughly this (rephrased in my words, as the devil's
advocate, so to say): "I am coming to aat because I want
to create more posts, to become even more clearly the most
prolific poster in usenet when it comes to astrology.
I keep my replies simple and open." [which could be read
by the devil's advocate as "to increase traffic, even at
the expense of real content"].
Needless to say, I am, of course, confident that this is
really just a shadow, and not at all all there is to Ray
as a poster.
Here is a link to my post at google groups:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d12bedf0.0310231420.731d6ecc%40posting.google.com
Usenet is biased, like anything is this world. The most
prominent bias in usenet is that practically nobody ever
seems to invest any time into reading what others say or
write execpt very quickly and superficially and then
simply and quickly reply what is on the top of their
heads. (Of course, I am exaggerating a bit, but in the
core I consider this rather true than the contrary).
That makes it hard for people who want to discuss some
specific things (i.e. stay on topic) with others who have
(outside of usenet) invested quite some time to think
specifically into the issue to discuss things in usenet.
Note that I am not saying that one approach is better
than the other, only that the typical usenet approach is
biased, and hence incomplete.
Astrologically, I see it as the conflict between Jupiter
(Pisces=southern node of usenet, Sagittarius=Neptune of
usenet, maybe sun too ??) and Mercury (Virgo=northern node
of usenet, where in my opinion moderated usenet (as its
name implies) is going).
So, as far as I understand, Larry simply wanted to discuss
a specific topic with people interested in the same topic
and willing to discuss it in some depth based on thoughts
they made privately before -- only to be confronted with
the ususal quick replies, broadening the issue into many
directions. Again, this is not negative per se, but it is
certainly biased. And, finally, it should not be unexpected
that a newsgroup that carries the name "tropical" recacts
a bit more heated, more impulsively compared to a group that
is more "moderated" in climate, as its name implies.
Bye and thanks for reading,
delphi29@excite.com
In article <bnrcrl$smd$1@reader10.wxs.nl>, "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> Hi All,
> I sent the post below to AAT twice but it hasn't shown up, whilst others
> have. I think my server has bleeped !
> I'm hoping Larry will be kind enough to step into AAM to answer it.
>
> > > "Larry Swain" <l.c.swain@worldnet.att.net> schreef in bericht
> > > news:Wy2nb.16302$Ec1.1472719@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > [..]
> > > > Such rigorous empirical studies have been done (already mentioned) showing
> > > > that the traditional 7 rulers work far more often and effectively than the
> > > > "modern" rulerships of Pluto/Scorpio, Uranus/Aquarius, and Neptune/Pisces.
> > > > To my knowledge NO studies have shown the reverse!
> > > >
> > > > And that's the last I have to say on the subject.
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
>
> Hello Larry,
> I logged onto AAT again as a result of a post on AAM, and have read
> through the majority of the posts here regarding rulerships.
> I am fully aware that I barely touch first base with my knowledge of the
> ancient traditions of astrology and know nothing more about Project
> Hindsight etc. than how to find the websites. But can I perhaps persuade
> you to say just a little more on this subject of rulerships by answering a
> few
> questions I have, please?
>
> If the outer planets have no rulership over a sign and one works only with
> Sun, Moon and the Big 5, each planet has rulership of 2 signs. Using
> Jupiter as an example,
> 1) Does this mean that Jupiter's natal placing will ALWAYS refer to both
> Sagittarius AND Pisces, rather than either/or?
> 2) A transiting planet in aspect to Jupiter will ALWAYS take in the
> meanings of both Sag. and Pisces, rather than either/or.
> 3) Transiting Jupiter to any planet will ALWAYS take in the meanings of
> Sag. and Pisces.
>
> As I understand your explanations, transiting Jupiter's aspect to a planet
> elsewhere will also effect any planet in Sag. or Pisces even if they are
> not joined by aspect.
> 4) Would this also mean that the signs/ house cusps of those planets in
> Sag. and Pisces will also be effected by the transit? E.G. Venus in
> Sagittarius will be effected by the transit although not in aspect, so the
> houses with
> Taurus/Libra on the cusp will be influenced.
> 5) If Jupiter was in a transiting aspect with the Sun, would the accent
> lie on Sagittarius, and in transiting aspect with the Moon, Pisces be
> accentuated; or would the dual rulership still hold?
> 6) Do the rules apply with Sagitarrius and Pisces intercepted ?
>
> Thanks for your time.
> Regards,
> Christine.
Mars has pretty much detached from Uranus, does
no longer care much about Uranus' single-mindedness
in Aquarius, sees a few a lot more interesting
things coming up. No more following of the "white
rabbits" (e.g. H - symbol of Uranus - Herschel -
herrschen=rule,reign, Hospital - Kill Bill,
building for Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
in "Mostly Harmless" - Tricia and hotel staff...)
Although my post-odyssey.pdf posts were more of
a private nature, they also contain warnings,
also including, but of course not restricted to,
me. The dangers of technology. At some point,
Prometheus will steal the fire that he himself
is not able to create from Apollon, and at some
point Pandora's box will unavoidably be opened.
At that point, the selection of hypotheses that
will have been confirmed in experiment, will be
unbiased, natural. What will count then will not
be my shadow, but the shadow of the world.
For me, the buck in usenet stops here.
delphi29@excite.com
keyword: exactphilosophy
Astrology Cycles wrote:
> Some astrology about the chart of aat has already been mentioned, but I see
> your point.
Thanks a lot.
> I personally can't find the data for the newsgroups, so that's something to
> take into consideration, i.e. maybe people aren't discussing the transits
> because they have no way of knowing what they are.
The birth data of aat is:
18th September 2001; 14.12hrs, CDT; Lisle, Illinois
Based on these 3 posts archived at groups.google.com:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=BAED5762.4BD2%25Libralove%40austin.rr.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D5ECE16.5090104%40exis.net
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CCAC5E4.90401%40exis.net
> On the issue of current transits as the backdrop for these events, I found
> your comments interesting. I would also look at the Saturn-Chiron
> opposition in Cancer-Capricorn, which is about boundaries and protection,
> rules that prevent harm and rules that cause harm. The Sun is about to
> trine Saturn and is also trine Mars, so there is something 'in the air'
> about rejection and protection. This opposition also links with Venus and
> Uranus in an 8th harmonic pattern, so perhaps 'divorce' is also in the air.
Thanks again. Not being a professional astrologer (I am
a physicist), I was not aware of all of these besides
Saturn in Cancer.
delphi29@excite.com (aka Alain Stalder)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
*
Ray Murphy wrote:
> RM: Delphi Twentine ~has~ put forward a significant theory about how
> astrology might work, as well as other unique and fairly deep
> proposals, so even though he has not posted a lot, he has nevertheless
> been with us for a while.
H, if you are as tough as you act, chew this:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
If that doesn't go down, try some of it diluted:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.pdf
I have posted a little over 100 posts during the previous
1.5 years to aam and aat; about 2/5 to aam (mostly under
my real name), the rest to aat (mostly under pseudonym).
If you want to be the boss, get at least informed.
Alain Stalder
PS: Thanks Ray.
--
In article <3fa69dcc_4@news.chariot.net.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> [RE-POSTED a/c POSTS STUCK IN QUEUE]
> ----------
> In article <_t_ob.1266$qh2.484@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "H"
> <adbiz98@zerospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >"Delphi Twentine" <delphi29@excite.com> wrote in message
> >news:delphi29-7850A4.09011801112003@news.bluewin.ch...
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >>In this season, this
> >> of course raises the suspicion that maybe nobody genuinely
> >> wants to resolve conflicts but only ignites them for
> >> his/her personal advantage. Of course, this suspicion is
> >> exaggerated, but to some degree, usually unconsciously and
> >> only as one of many drives in people, that is often true.
> >
> >Posting a genuine list of questions as Christine did, is hardly grounds for
> >"igniting" anything.
> >She has no axe to grind---she was sincerely looking to learn.
> >
> >>
> >> For example, Ray's second reply to my post "Usenet" to
> >> aat about a week ago, suggested Ray's shadow to contain
> >> roughly this (rephrased in my words, as the devil's
> >> advocate, so to say): "I am coming to aat because I want
> >> to create more posts, to become even more clearly the most
> >> prolific poster in usenet when it comes to astrology.
> >> I keep my replies simple and open." [which could be read
> >> by the devil's advocate as "to increase traffic, even at
> >> the expense of real content"].
> >
> >
> >Let's just cut to the chase--2 people posted on AAT and got shut out.
> >Period. If you want to analyze it to death and blow smoke up the wazoo of
> >others, fine. But the fact remains that neither Ray's nor Christine's
> >posts were abusive or harassing. Invoking Freud, shadows, mothers,
> >daughters, or even Mickey Mouse, is not going to change what transpired.
>
> RM: It's quite simple really - if a moderator notices that a post in
> the queue is being personally addressed to someone who has declared
> they have finished discussing a topic, the MOST the moderator could
> sensibly do is add a comment saying that the poster might not receive
> a response from ~that~ poster. Of course anyone else is at liberty to
> take up the issues at that point.
> >
> >And for the record, AAT is a moderated group despite the fact that
> >'.moderated' is missing from the newsgroup name.
> >
> >Why you are bidding farewell to a group you rarely--if ever--post to, is
> >rather suspect IMO. Perhaps we should see what your "shadow" is up to, hmmm?
>
> RM: Delphi Twentine ~has~ put forward a significant theory about how
> astrology might work, as well as other unique and fairly deep
> proposals, so even though he has not posted a lot, he has nevertheless
> been with us for a while.
>
> Personally I reckon it would be better for Delphi Twentine to take
> note of James Bond instead of focussing on Freud, and apply Bond's
> saying "Never say Never" and leave the group(s) if he wants to, but
> without placing chains around himself for future participation.
>
> >
> >H
>
> Ray
Libralove wrote (in reply to Sharyn):
[...]
> You abandoned the burning building. They don't need you
> as a moderator anyway -- they have no posts. It was burned down.
Have you seen the beautiful post of DJ about Nozomi to aat ?
I would exchange having read that post any time against having
read through the recent stuff here. Sure, it is only natural
that tastes are different and generations need to define their
boundaries--so I am certainly not saying that this group is less
good than aat; but personally I really do prefer the style of
the latter and apparently at least few others do too. This is
natural to anybody who knows astrology: Different people relate
differently to other people, groups, countries, etc.
So why so angry about it ? Usually people don't get angry about
something they don't care about. There is ample room to post to
aat, but Saturn-Pluto in opposition are not likely to allow
abundance and exaggeration without real and genuine reason.
delphi29@excite.com
Sharyn wrote:
> Alain, in light of the above response to your post, have you ever looked at
> aamod's chart? Very Scorpionic, as well as a bit bombastic and proud, and
> always has been. So, the group attracts posters of the same nature. We
> specifically avoided the Scorpio Moon in the aat chart (we figured the
> Saturn-Pluto opp was quite enough of that type of energy for one group) and
> chose a Sagittarius Ascendant (rather than Leo or Aquarius, like aamod-a.a.)
> in an effort to lend a different kind of energy to the group. I think what
> the group lacks in stability of fixed planets and ascendant, it makes up for
> in cardinal energy and growth potential.
>
> alt.astrology.moderated was born on November 8, 1998 at 00:04 AM,
> CST (+6), 88w04 41n48.
Hi Sharyn. I will look at it again in detail. Give me
about 10 days (I am not a professional astrologer).
I would like to simply apply what I published in
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
plus the new stuff that emerged from aat (nodes, parans,
free association in general, ...)
A word to the audience (in the way that sometimes actors
in theatre plays address the audience to explain a bit
what is happening behind the obvious): With my Mercury
retrograde, but almost stationary at the end of the 12th
house, I am an almost perfect and very adjustable mirror
in quick conversation. And what people often can hardly
stand is looking into a mirror. On the other hand, it is
not so that I did not also get a bit angry myself, maybe
mostly faced with how some of my personal traits might
evolve when I get older and maybe stiffer in opinion,
less receptive to new information. I would almost agree
with Persephone in the movie "Matrix Reloaded" who said
that the old programs of the matrix are "difficult to get
rid off". But one day everybody becomes an old program,
so care and comprehension are necessary as well. Besides,
old people are more likely "originals", who have their
charm too, but nonetheless they should no longer have
the greatest part in making the major decisions.
Now, back to the play :)
Alain Stalder
H wrote:
> "Delphi Twentine" <delphi29@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:delphi29-DC7AA6.19585704112003@news.bluewin.ch...
>
> >
> > H, if you are as tough as you act, chew this:
> >
>
> <snipped the linkage to possible chest-pounding>
>
>
> >
> > I have posted a little over 100 posts during the previous
> > 1.5 years to aam and aat; about 2/5 to aam (mostly under
> > my real name), the rest to aat (mostly under pseudonym).
> >
> > If you want to be the boss, get at least informed.
>
> I have no desire to be the boss, that's an ill-conceived notion on your
> part.
> Compared to most people, you don't post to AAM that often. If you had, I
> would know "Delphi" or whatever you want to call yourself. If you want to
> use a plethora of pseudonyms to post, or sign your posts with an e-mail
> addy, don't expect me to track your many personalities. It's not my job.
>
> Now why don't you please knock off the smokescreen. My comments were
> justified concerning AAT's rejection of Christine's and Ray's posts. And
> since you didn't get it the first time, I will say it again-- the posts
> weren't abusive or harassing.
>
> If you feel the need to reply to me in the future, try and do it with a
> little less bravado.
> May I suggest you post your website links to someone who might actually read
> them.
>
> H
Thanks for your opinion.
Bye, delphi29@excite.com
Sharyn wrote:
> I know your posts did not get a lot of response, Alain, and I regret the
> lack of time I personally had to talk with you, as I have found your ideas
> consistently very interesting. I have a bit more time coming up, and I hope
> to see more from you in the future.
Not many replies in the form of actual posts maybe, but
emotionally almost always a much better reception that
anywhere else on usenet.
Posting on usenet is to me often quite a bit like cave
diving, a very dangerous sport. Symbolically, the cave
(Earth) and the water (Water) symbolize the female
realm of the collective unconscious. That is a natural
place for women to be at. But a man can only survive
there if he takes air (Air) and light (Fire) with him.
Cave diving is so dangerous, because getting back to
the surface is a lengthy process and you can get stuck
on the way up. If you dive with company, the other
person might get stuck and you might have to abandon
that person because one person is usually not carrying
enough air to take the other one back up too.
I compared myself to Odysseus at aat, and Odysseus did
stay quite a while in Calypso's cave, but in the end he
had to leave. I know I was very lucky to survive so well;
that would not have been possible without constant help
by the fates too. As far as I can see, I have just now
negotiated the price for exiting the underworld for
good, namely to write a detailed analysis in the new
style, using the new stuff that I posted about all the
time since June 2002. At some point somebody with a more
aquarian/uranian inclination than me will be flexible
enough to give it a closer look and then to steal the
fire, thus bringing it to a wider audience. I don't mind
that - I am no good at it.
Maybe it will take someone younger than H-bomb for that
(H - H in Herschel that made it into the symbol for the
planet Uranus, now stationary at the south node of AAM;
H-bomb fuses Hydrogen into Helium, Hydrogen also reminds
of Hydra and thus relates to Cancer (Hera, Heracles),
H that also ressembles the symbol for Pisces, fitting
the transitory stage that Uranus is now at). I cannot
lean over to her computer and click the links I offered
her for her, but maybe someone else can convince her to
do so.
Alain Stalder
I wrote:
> Hi Sharyn. I will look at it again in detail. Give me
> about 10 days (I am not a professional astrologer).
> I would like to simply apply what I published in
>
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
>
> plus the new stuff that emerged from aat (nodes, parans,
> free association in general, ...)
On second thought, no. I will not do it. There is largely
enough material in the links I indicated. As a physicist,
I do not like to repeat things. It is an illusion that
saying the same several times gives it more weight.
H is also the first letter in Hades, who only hears what
is happening in the world when people get angry and stomp
their feet onto the ground. Ample reason to be suspicious
of people's actions.
A broader, postmodern look at astrology, as it is also
growing at aat, will be crucial in the future to ensure
that everything evolves well. Just one example: The
shuttle crash was just hours after the start of Chinese
New Year, the year of the black (water) sheep. Now, I do
not know what exactly that means, and it may not mean
anything bad (even in light how openly China bolstered
about the military importance of having now become a
space flying nation). But I would prefer to know for
sure. And in doing so, I would still prefer to rely on
a certain three letter country that bundles the dreams
of so many people, still does, despite.
For a clearcut look at the basic situation in the world,
see Emmanuel Todd's book (even though he is French).
The option for Europe, namely a closer link to Russia
compared to the USA as it is now, is not what I would
fancy easily (I am Swiss). Russia has heavily aquarian
traits. Aquarius fixity usually lets it run quite a
long time, locked into a fixed direction, until that
simply does not work any more. There have always been
situations in Russia with more outside influence, only
to then converge into a new line of thought that will
then run for at least several decades. Russia is now
converging again towards a single party system with a
single authoriarian control about all resources and
information. Again, this is just russian, and per se
not a danger yet. But before they start running, I
would prefer to have an idea where they are heading
this time and who will be around to balance any bias
of necessary.
Where Scorpio is typically wrong is in the assumption
that because digging deep is in his experience always
rewarded by emotional feedback by the greath mother,
that at the center it must be even more exciting and
hot (maybe also a difference between Mars and Pluto).
But in Dante's Hell, in the center it is ice cold, or
at the end of Pier Paolo Pasolini's Salo, the cruelty
occurs without any remaining excitement or feelings
at all. Pisces know that.
That concludes my third loop in usenet, dedicated,
I guess, to the four old signs and houses.
Hermes is the messenger of Zeus. If he is ordered to
deliver a package from a to A to B, he does that. He
is not allowed to do it differently if someone at A
or B requests it. Zeus has more overview than anyone
at A or B, who often need time to see the advantages
of having lost something they thought they needed or
having received something they thought they did not
want at all.
Venus in Sagittarius, how men are towards women
(See hypothesis H10c in discoveries.pdf).
Alain Stalder
> Anyway, if I can get away from Heather's Heavenly Bottom for
> a moment (Hi Heather!) I'd like also to put in a word of
> appreciation for your inputs to both aam and aat. I hope you
> understand that lack of response need not equate with lack of
> appreciation.
At the end of an 80's German movie, there is the following
tale (which I suspect to be much older):
A mouse is chased by a cat. The mouse runs up to a cow who
tells the mouse that it will protect it, and then sh*ts on
it. The cat runs up and sees the mouses' tail sticking out
of the excrement, pulls the mouse out and eats it.
Morale: The one who sh*ts on you does not necessarily
mean you bad; the one who pulls you out of the sh*ts does
not necessarily mean you good. Additional morale for men:
If you are in deep sh*t, make at least sure that your
tail does not stick out.
Mars is moving ahead in Pisces, Uranus will soon follow.
The cat as well as the mouse (even "Mickey Mouse") are
symbols of Apollon (see e.g. Robert Graves' "The Greek
Myths"). The cow, in turn, stands for "cow-eyed" Hera.
As far as I can see, chances for sons to be sacrified to
the great mother will be increasing during the next few
years. Watch out guys, especially in this place...
Mars in Pisces (how men and women are towards men, see
Hypothesis H10d in discoveries.pdf).
Alain Stalder
Jyeshta <gsk@panix.com> wrote:
> In <delphi29-D9F541.07242707112003@news.bluewin.ch> Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com> writes:
>
> >> Anyway, if I can get away from Heather's Heavenly Bottom for
> >> a moment (Hi Heather!) I'd like also to put in a word of
> >> appreciation for your inputs to both aam and aat. I hope you
> >> understand that lack of response need not equate with lack of
> >> appreciation.
>
> >At the end of an 80's German movie, there is the following
> >tale (which I suspect to be much older):
>
> >A mouse is chased by a cat. The mouse runs up to a cow who
> >tells the mouse that it will protect it, and then sh*ts on
> >it. The cat runs up and sees the mouses' tail sticking out
> >of the excrement, pulls the mouse out and eats it.
>
> >Morale: The one who sh*ts on you does not necessarily
> >mean you bad; the one who pulls you out of the sh*ts does
> >not necessarily mean you good. Additional morale for men:
> >If you are in deep sh*t, make at least sure that your
> >tail does not stick out.
>
> >Mars is moving ahead in Pisces, Uranus will soon follow.
> >The cat as well as the mouse (even "Mickey Mouse") are
> >symbols of Apollon (see e.g. Robert Graves' "The Greek
> >Myths"). The cow, in turn, stands for "cow-eyed" Hera.
> >As far as I can see, chances for sons to be sacrified to
> >the great mother will be increasing during the next few
> >years. Watch out guys, especially in this place...
>
> I don't understand. Are you saying that aamod ("in this
> place") is going to start killing off male posters?
>
> >Mars in Pisces (how men and women are towards men, see
> >Hypothesis H10d in discoveries.pdf).
>
> I took a brief look at your .pdf file, and I can't really
> comment on it because I don't understand the equations. I
> think you have an interesting way of expressing your ideas
> in your posts, even though I don't necessarily agree.
The document is 29 pages; page 2 contains 7 formulas, the
other pages are formula-free.
Pages 3 to 22 are almost entirely about astrology, require
no mathematical knowledge and are and for the most part
independent of what is written on page 1 and 2.
Here is a table of contents of the document
(link: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf )
[ 1] About
[ 1] Abstract
[ 1] 1 A new Physical Effect
[ 1] 1.1 The Experimental Facts
[ 1] 1.2 Analysis of the Facts
[ 2] 1.3 Gedankenexperiment
[ 2] 1.4 Experimental Challenges
[ 3] 1.5 Hypothetical Consequences
[ 3] 2 Elementary Astrology
[ 3] 2.1 The Planets
[ 4] 2.2 The Star Signs
[ 5] 2.3 Fire (Aries/Leo/Sagittarius)
[ 5] 2.4 Water (Cancer/Scorpio/Pisces)
[ 5] 2.5 Air (Gemini/Libra/Aquarius)
[ 6] 2.6 Earth (Taurus/Virgo/Capricorn)
[ 6] 3 Applied Astrology
[ 6] 3.1 The United States of America
[ 7] 3.2 Numbers
[ 7] 3.3 Planetary Aspects
[ 7] 3.4 Synastry and Transits
[ 8] 3.5 Men and Women
[ 8] 3.6 Dreams
[ 8] 3.7 Astrological Houses
[ 9] 3.8 Astrological Inheritance
[ 9] 3.9 Star Signs in Detail
[10] 3.9.1 Aries
[10] 3.9.2 Taurus
[11] 3.9.3 Gemini
[11] 3.9.4 Cancer
[11] 3.9.5 Leo
[11] 3.9.6 Virgo
[12] 3.9.7 Libra
[12] 3.9.8 Scorpio
[13] 3.9.9 Sagittarius
[13] 3.9.10 Capricorn
[14] 3.9.11 Aquarius
[14] 3.9.12 Pisces
[14] 3.10 Astrological Ages
[15] 3.11 The First Age
[15] 3.12 The Age of Aries
[15] 3.13 The Age of Pisces
[16] 3.14 The Age of Aquarius
[18] 3.15 Mythology in Life
[19] Hermes
[20] Science and Philosophy
[23] Acknowledgements
[23] References
[23] Appendices
[23] A How it came about
[23] B Proof of Discovery
[29] C The Future
[29] Disclaimer
[29] Estimation
(I will not discuss replies based on the table of contents
alone and unlikely replies based on quick looks at the
document; see also end of "PS:" below).
Astrologically, the most important contribution is a
model that describes the 12 signs of the zodiac in
terms of archetypes for the 4 elements (not archetypes
for the 12 signs as usual). I have posted about these
in detail several times, including to this group. See
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.pdf
(see e.g. posts #54 or #121 in there)
> But your statement above about the 'mother sacrificing her
> sons' was really a bit much for me.
Sorry, I can see that. I could feel the pain and anger very
clearly when I posted here recently. In German there is
"Zuckerbrot and Peitsche" associated with Scorpio (sugar
bread and whip). With my Saturn at the end of Pisces, my
compassion can be limited, even though I have 4 planets in
the 12th house. My Neptune in Scorpio makes it difficult
for me to feel when Scorpio has looked deep enough and wants
to stop. On the other hand, Scorpio does often not know when
to stop, gets a bit too carried away by its Martian energy.
Sorry again, but I also felt a bit that it had to be, not
necessarily on a personal level towards individual posters
here, but mostly on a collective level.
Note that I have the moon in Aries at the MC, so my public
appearance under my real name can appear a bit lunatic
(lunatic comes from luna, the moon). This is just one of
the reasons why I often prefer to post under pseudonym.
Don't worry, I am a physicist.
(delphi29@excite.com is also known as the author of a
quite popular free astrology program for Palm OS handhelds,
see homepage at: http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29 ).
So there are also other contributions to astrology that
I made. Please keep in mind that astrology is not a full
time job of me. So most of my work has grown in my spare
time, taking quite a toll on other spare time activities
during the last 3.5 years or so.
[quoted again from above]
> I don't understand. Are you saying that aamod ("in this
> place") is going to start killing off male posters?
See, it's already happening to me...
(The piscean symbol H has won again; I talked, she leaned
back and listened. But then again, I have a retrograde
Mercury, so things may in the end still be the way I
wanted them, because they will be the way the world wanted
them -- Yes, I can see this will again appear lunatic (moon
now in my natal Aries, full moon approaching) in the public,
while it is just a bit of intuitive depth psychology, paired
with years of hard work (Saturn in Pisces) of conscious deep
analysis (Uranus-Pluto conjunction in Virgo).
So, I hope the fates are happy now.
Alain Stalder
--
PS: DON'T PANIC (Friendly inscription on the Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy (Douglas Adams)). Gimme a pikka bird!
eader2.panix.com>
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Jyeshta <gsk@panix.com> wrote:
> Thank you; it looks very comprehensive. I'll try to spend more
> time with your document.
Thanks a lot for all your comments. :) :) :)
Let me just add three dates related to the document.
I started to write it in spring 2001 (Aries, precise
date is lost; I was too busy starting it to note).
I made the final change to it March 5th, 2002 at
00:05 Zurich (23:05 UTC March 4th) and published it
June 20th, 2002 at 9:00 Zurich (7:00 UTC), first
to sci.physics and a few seconds later to
alt.astrology (later in the day to aam).
So, its content---although I still think, as I did
the day I published it, that in a few hundred years
a lot of what I wrote will simply appear normal to
almost every reader---is now probably not something
easy to approach for most people, since what it
contains was forged by Saturn and Pluto opposing
each other. It appears to be a bit like the ring
that Frodo carries. Thus, it will likely not be
forgeable much unless it is brought to Mordor again,
i.e. during one of the next major Saturn-Pluto
aspects. The publication date is particularly
fated, with its almost perfect grand trine of sun,
moon and Uranus; all placed at the transitions from
air to water signs. And the trinangle points down,
i.e. the symbol for the element water, hence fate.
This is also giving me a hard time promoting my
stuff because there is so little room to move.
In the document, everything is so much condensed that
it may be difficult to understand, even if one invests
a good time into understanding it. In some posts of this
summer, I tried to expose some basic new thoughts in
more detail, by picking out random passages from the
discoveries document and then explaining the background,
and growing beautiful new stuff by associating it with
other things. Search at http://groups.google.com with
"author:delphi29@excite.com exactphilosophy reflections"
and sort by date or take a look at the already mentioned
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.pdf
which contains all my newsgroup posts until about two
weeks ago.
So, everybody interested:
Have fun *and* be careful,
Alain Stalder
PS: I assume that the fates are happy now. Otherwise
please say so before this thread ends...
Mini-Reflection (Hermes)
Alois Treindl has just announced on aamod that an
object called 'Hermes' that had originally been
sighted in 1937 but later lost has been rediscovered:
> There was a recent approach to Earth on 5-nov-2003 with a distance of
> 0.047 AU, about 15 times the distance of the Moon.
The object carries the number 69230, which points to
the beginning of section 3.10 Astrological Ages:
> H31 Astrological ages are influenced by their assigned star sign (a)
> and also, but less strongly, by the opposite sign in the zodiac (b).
>
> The earth's axis precesses with a period of about 26'000 years.
> Consequently, the star sign t*h*at carries the sun at the beginning
> of spring changes every about 2150 years. In analogy to months in a
> year, these astrological ages are believed to be influenced by their
> respective star sign. H31b is probably both belief and a natural
> counterreaction.
H again! (H)ermes fooled everybody again...
(H)ope he brings better news this time than last time
around. Might be the other side of the coin this time,
Virgo. Let's (h)ope that this time Austria (a country
with a long history of Scorpio founding dates) will
provide a more humane politician. (H)opes are good,
the new Austrian's name does not start with H...
Interesting also that he was announced with solar
flares and fires in CA (Arnie's a Leo)...
See you all again sometime next year, but me under
a different name... One thing that the new identity
will certainly avoid to do, is make announcements.
delphi29@excite.com
I wrote:
> The object carries the number 69230, which points to
> the beginning of section 3.10 Astrological Ages:
>
> > H31 Astrological ages are influenced by their assigned star sign (a)
> > and also, but less strongly, by the opposite sign in the zodiac (b).
> >
> > The earth's axis precesses with a period of about 26'000 years.
> > Consequently, the star sign t*h*at carries the sun at the beginning
> > of spring changes every about 2150 years. In analogy to months in a
> > year, these astrological ages are believed to be influenced by their
> > respective star sign. H31b is probably both belief and a natural
> > counterreaction.
Again overlooked the most simple association:
H is pronounced "Age"
I think it was Liz Greene in a seminar about the
mythological path in life, the best short description
of the signs that I ever read, published in "New
Insights in Modern Astrology" (together with Steven
Arroyo) where she answered a question about when the
New Age would start with something along "as far as
I know, the New Age started last wednesday"...
November 5th, 2003 was a wednesday ;)
delphi29@excite.com
H wrote:
> Alan was surely a witty ol' sod
> Who just stumbled in to a.a.mod
> With a slutty young girl named BML
>
> With the sharpest of tongues
> She began cursing everyone
> 'Til the moderator said, "go to hell"
[...]
> Heather ;-)
I always thought BML to be the wrong name:
At one focal point you have Earth, the other one
would then logically rather be Black Earth than
Black Moon. It is a projection of a point inside
the Earth into space, i.e. a projection, exposition
of the underworld/hell. So you get the contrast
between regular "white" Earth (Taurus) and Black
Earth Lilith (Scorpio), fitting with the origins
of the mythology in matriarchal times in the Age
of Taurus.
Fortunately, BEL still rimes with hell...
Alain Stalder
ynotssor wrote:
> "Delphi Twentine" <delphi29@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:d12bedf0.0311021312.6a58dad4@posting.google.com
> > Mars has pretty much detached from Uranus, does
> > no longer care much about Uranus' single-mindedness
> > in Aquarius, sees a few a lot more interesting
> > things coming up. No more following of the "white
> > rabbits" (e.g. H - symbol of Uranus - Herschel -
> > herrschen=rule,reign, Hospital - Kill Bill,
> > building for Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
> > in "Mostly Harmless" - Tricia and hotel staff...)
> >
> > Although my post-odyssey.pdf posts were more of
> > a private nature, they also contain warnings,
> > also including, but of course not restricted to,
> > me. The dangers of technology. At some point,
> > Prometheus will steal the fire that he himself
> > is not able to create from Apollon, and at some
> > point Pandora's box will unavoidably be opened.
> > At that point, the selection of hypotheses that
> > will have been confirmed in experiment, will be
> > unbiased, natural. What will count then will not
> > be my shadow, but the shadow of the world.
> >
> > For me, the buck in usenet stops here.
> >
> > keyword: exactphilosophy
>
> Take some time off from the drugs. You'll feel much better.
>
> --
Yes, usenet has the southern node in Pisces.
It can be addictive.
[I am quoting in reverse order]
"Martin Lewicki" <marty@mail.com> wrote:
> I might add that Ray Murphy has attempted to pave the way for some clarity
> in this NG by insisting on consistent use of the term Tropical Astrology
> and by defining what he means by it when he discusses his research.
In my experience and view, Ray's posts are often quite
good, but they are also usually rather of a general
nature, which is why (since he is posting quite a lot)
he often says the same things in reply to many different
topics, sometimes repeatedly in the same thread.
It often looks to me like some people are trying to
discuss a practical question within a rather well defined
set of assumptions, and then are confronted with repeated
citations by Heraclitus that are general, eternal insights
into life, philosophical points of view that go beyond
making the usual assumptions. It is important to be
reminded of that from time to time, but when repeated over
and over again, it can annoy other posters. I am aware that
Sagittarius is in Pluto now, but still: Zeus only throws
bolts of lightning relatively rarely, but then very
efficiently, even though they usually appear random to
people on earth.
I am also aware that tropical astrology is not ideal for
a continent like Australia in the southern hemisphere,
since the star signs are quite well adapted to seasons.
(For example, imagine having to bring in and sort the
harvest when the sun is (tropically) in Pisces). I think
that is also one important reason why it was an Australian,
Bernadette Brady, who went back to the fixed stars, to
stellar parans.
I guess you are probably aware of Robert Hand's essay about
the Age and constellation of Pisces. There he predicts a shift
of focus towards the east, i.e. also towards Australia.
I have mentioned in a recent post to aat (actually the first
in this 3rd usenet loop of mine) that many recent blockbuster
movies have been turned in Australia, especially those that
start at the same date worldwide.
On the afternoon of 9/11, just before the first plane hit
one of the two towers (that was in the afternoom Swiss time),
I heard a song by Kylie Minogue for the first time:
"Can't get you out of my mind"
Even though she sings "lalala..." many times in the song, the
song has a very hard beat beneath the surface, fitting very well
with the situation that afternoon, with some harmonic aspects
hiding the tough hammering of Saturn against Pluto. Liz Greene
identifies such charts as typical charts for beginnings of wars:
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_wtc_e.htm
> I'm not trying to be antagonistic here but the New Age very often
> appropriates scientific terminology to convey mysterious phenomena as if
> the terminlogy actually expains it (like business speak) when in fact it
> explains very little. This does not matter when New Agers are talking among
> themselves because explanations are not so important as the strange
> experiences themselves and what they mean. But in dialogue with a
> scientifically trained community and even with "neutral onlookers" it mearly
> perpetuats more confusion than clarity.
I agree. Aquarius is an Air sign, language is important there and,
because he is so great at bending things to unify them, sometimes
language can be bent so far to become dangerous. I am thinking here
about the terms that the Nazis used instead of "Genocide", like
"Final Solution" etc. Now, after 7 years with Uranus in Aquarius
there are a few new words too, some of which can be dangerous.
For example, "Peace Making" instead of "War". For many people
directly affected, the difference might be much smaller than the
different words imply.
In about 1995 or so, I saw a movie by Wim Wenders called "Far away,
so close". It predicted already quite a bit of what was about to
come in the next few years. In the first part of the movie, people
travel quickly from country to country, using lots of technological
gadgets, and there was even a precognition of the semitransparent
(Apple) computers, in form of a translucent blue fridge.
In the second part of the movie, they end their journey in Australia,
near a sacred place for the Aborigines. There they meet an old
scientist who is trying to make dreams visible, if I remember
correctly, to give his wife back vision (she is blind). But this
is only his desire, his wife is not so much interested in gaining
her vision back.
I had gone to that movie the first day it came into cinemas in
Zurich. Astonishingly (and this has never again happened to me)
Wim Wenders was present too, with his girlfriend of the time,
who was also one of the main actors in the movie. He told the
audience after the movie about his grandmother who was blind
and with who he used to talk.
Aquarius has the tendency to want to make everything equal.
There are several ways to achieve this. In the Soviet Union,
there was a separate city for blind people, so people in most
of the Soviet Union would be more equal and the blind people
in their place would be equal too. I still prefer a solution
where technology is used to give blind people some of the same
possibilities back and let them live where they want. But,
I also think people should also be allowed to keep their
differences, if they want so. Not having vision, also opens
the other senses up, even though certainly nobody would like
to actually loose his/her eye sight.*
> This is why the PEAR group in the link that I supplied earlier are acutely
> aware of the ligustic perils when writing about their research in the field
> of "human-machine-anomalies". They take a lot of care in their papers to
> precisly define terms in context of science, psychology and metaphysics.
> This way we have a clear road map for futher discussion and dailog between
> parties coming from their respective positions such as physics, psychology,
> metaphysics and yes, even astrology.
I am not arguing with that. It appears to me though, that their
experiments are maybe also a bit too unnatural. They use little
boxes with random generators that people carry around to search
for correlations between what people think. Why then, would
those little boxes care much about what people think ? Isn't
it mainly people who care about other people ? Why not measure
the activities of the brains directly and then look for
correlations ?
I had looked at their web site for quite some time about a year
ago or so, but except maybe for some slight indications, I could
not find anything that would actually prove correlations from
their data and analysis. Do you have a different opinion there ?
If yes: Any more precise links where to look there or to what
to pay attention to ?
Finally, a general comment about "Invisible Things in Astrology":
It is still a craft and most of what is happening it still
unconscious to most people doing it. This is also natural, since
it is still mainly women who are doing astrology, and women, in
my experience, often do more things unconsciously, collectively,
than men. Teaser: Hypothesis H23 in
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
* Aquarius is the old Air sign. Already the adult Air sign,
Libra looses sight (has to, to some degree). See e.g. Psyche's
fourth task where she has to follow her plan to retrieve
something from the underworld, ignoring some suffering people
along the way (section 3.15 in discoveries.pdf). Or see
Teiresias who looses eye sight to be less diverted by the
beauty of nature/women to be able to focus more on abstract
beauty (section 3.9.7 in discoveries.pdf).
In the end, in Aquarius many people just bend things so that
everybody believes that everybody is equal. That is probably
going to change a bit when Uranus moves ahead into Pisces.
Once something is the same for everybody, it becomes totally
transparent, it looses importance so completely for most
people that the remaining differences become a lot more
evident again. So, the world might become a bit more interesting
in the years to come, although, since Neptune remains in
Aquarius, some things will probably remain the same.
[I am quoting in reverse order]
"Martin Lewicki" <marty@mail.com> wrote:
> I might add that Ray Murphy has attempted to pave the way for some clarity
> in this NG by insisting on consistent use of the term Tropical Astrology
> and by defining what he means by it when he discusses his research.
In my experience and view, Ray's posts are often quite
good, but they are also usually rather of a general
nature, which is why (since he is posting quite a lot)
he often says the same things in reply to many different
topics, sometimes repeatedly in the same thread.
It often looks to me like some people are trying to
discuss a practical question within a rather well defined
set of assumptions, and then are confronted with repeated
citations by Heraclitus that are general, eternal insights
into life, philosophical points of view that go beyond
making the usual assumptions. It is important to be
reminded of that from time to time, but when repeated over
and over again, it can annoy other posters. I am aware that
Sagittarius is in Pluto now, but still: Zeus only throws
bolts of lightning relatively rarely, but then very
efficiently, even though they usually appear random to
people on earth.
I am also aware that tropical astrology is not ideal for
a continent like Australia in the southern hemisphere,
since the star signs are quite well adapted to seasons.
(For example, imagine having to bring in and sort the
harvest when the sun is (tropically) in Pisces). I think
that is also one important reason why it was an Australian,
Bernadette Brady, who went back to the fixed stars, to
stellar parans.
I guess you are probably aware of Robert Hand's essay about
the Age and constellation of Pisces. There he predicts a shift
of focus towards the east, i.e. also towards Australia.
I have mentioned in a recent post to aat (actually the first
in this 3rd usenet loop of mine) that many recent blockbuster
movies have been turned in Australia, especially those that
start at the same date worldwide.
On the afternoon of 9/11, just before the first plane hit
one of the two towers (that was in the afternoom Swiss time),
I heard a song by Kylie Minogue for the first time:
"Can't get you out of my mind"
Even though she sings "lalala..." many times in the song, the
song has a very hard beat beneath the surface, fitting very well
with the situation that afternoon, with some harmonic aspects
hiding the tough hammering of Saturn against Pluto. Liz Greene
identifies such charts as typical charts for beginnings of wars:
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_wtc_e.htm
> I'm not trying to be antagonistic here but the New Age very often
> appropriates scientific terminology to convey mysterious phenomena as if
> the terminlogy actually expains it (like business speak) when in fact it
> explains very little. This does not matter when New Agers are talking among
> themselves because explanations are not so important as the strange
> experiences themselves and what they mean. But in dialogue with a
> scientifically trained community and even with "neutral onlookers" it mearly
> perpetuats more confusion than clarity.
I agree. Aquarius is an Air sign, language is important there and,
because he is so great at bending things to unify them, sometimes
language can be bent so far to become dangerous. I am thinking here
about the terms that the Nazis used instead of "Genocide", like
"Final Solution" etc. Now, after 7 years with Uranus in Aquarius
there are a few new words too, some of which can be dangerous.
For example, "Peace Making" instead of "War". For many people
directly affected, the difference might be much smaller than the
different words imply.
In about 1995 or so, I saw a movie by Wim Wenders called "Far away,
so close". It predicted already quite a bit of what was about to
come in the next few years. In the first part of the movie, people
travel quickly from country to country, using lots of technological
gadgets, and there was even a precognition of the semitransparent
(Apple) computers, in form of a translucent blue fridge.
In the second part of the movie, they end their journey in Australia,
near a sacred place for the Aborigines. There they meet an old
scientist who is trying to make dreams visible, if I remember
correctly, to give his wife back vision (she is blind). But this
is only his desire, his wife is not so much interested in gaining
her vision back.
I had gone to that movie the first day it came into cinemas in
Zurich. Astonishingly (and this has never again happened to me)
Wim Wenders was present too, with his girlfriend of the time,
who was also one of the main actors in the movie. He told the
audience after the movie about his grandmother who was blind
and with who he used to talk.
Aquarius has the tendency to want to make everything equal.
There are several ways to achieve this. In the Soviet Union,
there was a separate city for blind people, so people in most
of the Soviet Union would be more equal and the blind people
in their place would be equal too. I still prefer a solution
where technology is used to give blind people some of the same
possibilities back and let them live where they want. But,
I also think people should also be allowed to keep their
differences, if they want so. Not having vision, also opens
the other senses up, even though certainly nobody would like
to actually loose his/her eye sight.*
> This is why the PEAR group in the link that I supplied earlier are acutely
> aware of the ligustic perils when writing about their research in the field
> of "human-machine-anomalies". They take a lot of care in their papers to
> precisly define terms in context of science, psychology and metaphysics.
> This way we have a clear road map for futher discussion and dailog between
> parties coming from their respective positions such as physics, psychology,
> metaphysics and yes, even astrology.
I am not arguing with that. It appears to me though, that their
experiments are maybe also a bit too unnatural. They use little
boxes with random generators that people carry around to search
for correlations between what people think. Why then, would
those little boxes care much about what people think ? Isn't
it mainly people who care about other people ? Why not measure
the activities of the brains directly and then look for
correlations ?
I had looked at their web site for quite some time about a year
ago or so, but except maybe for some slight indications, I could
not find anything that would actually prove correlations from
their data and analysis. Do you have a different opinion there ?
If yes: Any more precise links where to look there or to what
to pay attention to ?
Finally, a general comment about "Invisible Things in Astrology":
It is still a craft and most of what is happening it still
unconscious to most people doing it. This is also natural, since
it is still mainly women who are doing astrology, and women, in
my experience, often do more things unconsciously, collectively,
than men. Teaser: Hypothesis H23 in
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
* Aquarius is the old Air sign. Already the adult Air sign,
Libra looses sight (has to, to some degree). See e.g. Psyche's
fourth task where she has to follow her plan to retrieve
something from the underworld, ignoring some suffering people
along the way (section 3.15 in discoveries.pdf). Or see
Teiresias who looses eye sight to be less diverted by the
beauty of nature/women to be able to focus more on abstract
beauty (section 3.9.7 in discoveries.pdf).
In the end, in Aquarius many people just bend things so that
everybody believes that everybody is equal. That is probably
going to change a bit when Uranus moves ahead into Pisces.
Once something is the same for everybody, it becomes totally
transparent, it looses importance so completely for most
people that the remaining differences become a lot more
evident again. So, the world might become a bit more interesting
in the years to come, although, since Neptune remains in
Aquarius, some things will probably remain the same.
I wrote:
> See you all again sometime next year, but me under
> a different name... One thing that the new identity
> will certainly avoid to do, is make announcements.
Early January 2004.
I am trying to carefully prepare a new identity by
choosing a matrix name and birth date and looking into
symbolic connections (meanings of names, using tropical
astrology, as well as parans etc.). Actually, with my
retrograde Mercury it looks like I am doing it the
wrong way round: I chose a moment rather luckily
November 7th, and am now discovering the related
associations, and it is still looking well...
I am sort of thinking about a moderated poster, with
its own charter/filter built in that is less likely
to get sucked into the usual usenet traps. It is a
bit like the reverse construction of version 2 of the
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the bird in which
simply the usual filters had been left out so that it
could see all at once. Every end is also a beginning.
So, I am trying to gently create a new matrix, with
sort of "Alain Stalder" as the Architect (father) and
with "delphi29@excite.com" as the Source (mother).
See you then.
delphi29@excite.com
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Christine wrote:
> I have no birth time for the individual whose birth date is 16-8-1955.
> The mother of my daughter's friend returned from a holiday to Gambia, during
> which time Pluto was transiting between 17*21 and 17* 47 SAG., 3 weeks ago.
> She had been told by her physician that it was not necessary to take malaria
> tablets during the trip. Three days after her return, she came down with a
> high temp., but the dr. refused to pay a house call. After 3 days the
> husband rang the dr. again, demanding he call. The fever was such that she
> was rushed into hospital. She had malaria. She was given too high a dose of
> medication to counteract the condition, which resulted later in a heart
> seizure and she went into coma. She never came out of it and died on
> Tuesday. She had had no previous heart problems.
>
> Curiousity about this tragedy made me check the ephemeris and progressed
> date. I couldn't see anything really relevant. When I put up a noon chart on
> the computer, there was Lilith on approx. 17 SAG 38.
>
> It maybe just a quirk of coincidence that transiting Lilith in Taurus had
> squared her Sun-Mars conjunction in Leo barely a week before she went to
> holiday and squared Pluto in the last week of it.
> Transiting Pluto cojoined her Lilith, whose only harsh aspect is the 45* to
> Chiron in Aquarius, during her holiday.
>
> If only she had followed her natural instincts instead of listening to her
> physician.
>
> Regards,
> Christine.
It appears the last few weeks were a very dangerous time.
I usually don't talk about my friends and relatives here,
but I will make a one-time exception here.
About two and a half weeks ago, a friend of mine thought
that he had a cold because he was coughing. About a week
later, after he also felt some pain at the right lung wing,
he went to see a doctor who diagnosed that his right lung
wing was fractured, so it had partially collapsed and air
had gotten between the lung and belly.
He was operated twice, first time the same evening, the
second time a few days ago. He woke up too early during
the second operation and panicked, in the evening after
the operation, at the intensive station, some guy freaked
out several times during the night, he had himself to
learn how to operate a little pump that would constantly
pump off the air between belly and lung, because the
nurses were not educated well enough in operating it,
since this kind of disease was not what the hospital was
specialized in. Now he is home again, still a bit weak,
but safe.
I have Jupiter, Mars and Venus in close conjunction in
Cancer in the 12th house. I guess I locked into the symbol
"H" (not so much the actual poster) mainly for the same
reason that the USA locked into Iraq after 9/11, simply
because there was an urge, an instinct from deep below
that that was the thing to focus on, even if there was no
direct logical justification for it. It is, like Thomas Ring
put it, rather the result of past sufferings than conscious
knowledge (moon not sun), that leads to a conclusion.
I have Uranus leading in conjunction with Pluto in Virgo,
so I handle fate by conscious analysis. Here it is:
The Hospital (H) was a US hospital in Switzerland (I am
not sure of the exact status, but a very strong link to
the US exists for sure; for example newly arrived researchers
at the IBM Zurich Research Lab often stay in buildings
there, until they find an appartment). My friend was also
the first person who told me about the 9/11 attacks when
I called him to ask to go for a game of a special variant
of table tennis we used to play, one in which we use two
tables parallel to each other (like in the letter "H")
and without a net, but only about 1.5m free space between
the tables. And, here it comes, the lungs with their two
wings and tubes in between look very much like the
letter "H", are connected to Cancer->June/Juno->Hera or
directly to Heracles fighting the Hydra in the swamps,
are the wings of angels and of Lilith (Heaven and Hell).
When Inanna had to go to the underworld in Sumerian
mythology, she had to take off all her clothes and all
of her jewelry, just like trees in autumn loose their
leaves in autumn to reveal their branches.
Take care,
Alain Stalder
[reposting, since approved at aam web page,
but not appearing on any actual newsgroups]
I wrote:
> Christine wrote:
> > I have no birth time for the individual whose birth date is 16-8-1955.
> > The mother of my daughter's friend returned from a holiday to Gambia, during
> > which time Pluto was transiting between 17*21 and 17* 47 SAG., 3 weeks ago.
> > She had been told by her physician that it was not necessary to take malaria
> > tablets during the trip. Three days after her return, she came down with a
> > high temp., but the dr. refused to pay a house call. After 3 days the
> > husband rang the dr. again, demanding he call. The fever was such that she
> > was rushed into hospital. She had malaria. She was given too high a dose of
> > medication to counteract the condition, which resulted later in a heart
> > seizure and she went into coma. She never came out of it and died on
> > Tuesday. She had had no previous heart problems.
> >
> > Curiousity about this tragedy made me check the ephemeris and progressed
> > date. I couldn't see anything really relevant. When I put up a noon chart on
> > the computer, there was Lilith on approx. 17 SAG 38.
> >
> > It maybe just a quirk of coincidence that transiting Lilith in Taurus had
> > squared her Sun-Mars conjunction in Leo barely a week before she went to
> > holiday and squared Pluto in the last week of it.
> > Transiting Pluto cojoined her Lilith, whose only harsh aspect is the 45* to
> > Chiron in Aquarius, during her holiday.
> >
> > If only she had followed her natural instincts instead of listening to her
> > physician.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Christine.
>
> It appears the last few weeks were a very dangerous time.
> I usually don't talk about my friends and relatives here,
> but I will make a one-time exception here.
>
> About two and a half weeks ago, a friend of mine thought
> that he had a cold because he was coughing. About a week
> later, after he also felt some pain at the right lung wing,
> he went to see a doctor who diagnosed that his right lung
> wing was fractured, so it had partially collapsed and air
> had gotten between the lung and belly.
>
> He was operated twice, first time the same evening, the
> second time a few days ago. He woke up too early during
> the second operation and panicked, in the evening after
> the operation, at the intensive station, some guy freaked
> out several times during the night, he had himself to
> learn how to operate a little pump that would constantly
> pump off the air between belly and lung, because the
> nurses were not educated well enough in operating it,
> since this kind of disease was not what the hospital was
> specialized in. Now he is home again, still a bit weak,
> but safe.
>
> I have Jupiter, Mars and Venus in close conjunction in
> Cancer in the 12th house. I guess I locked into the symbol
> "H" (not so much the actual poster) mainly for the same
> reason that the USA locked into Iraq after 9/11, simply
> because there was an urge, an instinct from deep below
> that that was the thing to focus on, even if there was no
> direct logical justification for it. It is, like Thomas Ring
> put it, rather the result of past sufferings than conscious
> knowledge (moon not sun), that leads to a conclusion.
>
> I have Uranus leading in conjunction with Pluto in Virgo,
> so I handle fate by conscious analysis. Here it is:
>
> The Hospital (H) was a US hospital in Switzerland (I am
> not sure of the exact status, but a very strong link to
> the US exists for sure; for example newly arrived researchers
> at the IBM Zurich Research Lab often stay in buildings
> there, until they find an appartment). My friend was also
> the first person who told me about the 9/11 attacks when
> I called him to ask to go for a game of a special variant
> of table tennis we used to play, one in which we use two
> tables parallel to each other (like in the letter "H")
> and without a net, but only about 1.5m free space between
> the tables. And, here it comes, the lungs with their two
> wings and tubes in between look very much like the
> letter "H", are connected to Cancer->June/Juno->Hera or
> directly to Heracles fighting the Hydra in the swamps,
> are the wings of angels and of Lilith (Heaven and Hell).
>
> When Inanna had to go to the underworld in Sumerian
> mythology, she had to take off all her clothes and all
> of her jewelry, just like trees in autumn loose their
> leaves in autumn to reveal their branches.
>
> Take care,
>
> Alain Stalder
The fourth return of Lilith; the one related to the
number 4 (4-Earth, 3-Water, 2-Air, 1-Fire). For me, that
happened early January 2002, when I wrote section 4 of
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf; at that
time a got the flu and was coughing quite heavily (got
that flu after a short trip to a swiss state in the
mountains, Graubunden, with a mountain goat in its flag,
i.e. Capricorn-Earth/begin of 4th season-4, and winter
sports; I felt the effects of that flu for about a year.
I also relate 4 to Mars (1-sun, 2-moon, 3-Venus, 4-Mars,
5-Mercury, 6-Jupiter, 7-Saturn; see e.g. Heracles 12
tasks and their relation to houses; again something that
grew this summer at aat). That gives also a link from
Mars to Scorpio. And, of course, there is the 4th house,
related to father, ancestors, mother in some still not
obvious way to me.
You have been heard.
Alain Stalder
[reposting, since approved at aam web page,
but not appearing on any actual newsgroups]
Thanks a lot for the links and specifics.
I am well aware that Bernadette Brady does tropical astrology,
as well as that you are from the southern hemisphere. About
the originins of Bernadette Brady's interest in stellar parans,
see also http://www.astrozero.btinternet.co.uk/brady_1.htm:
> And then Rob Hand did a lecture in Australia where he looked at the
> individual stars of each constellation. He lectured about the two
> stars in the fish of Pisces, and I absolutely loved it. When he came
> to Adelaide, he was staying with us. In those days, the computer was
> an extension of his mind. He was writing the Nova program at the
> time, and he married his brain to my computer while he was in the
> house. I said to him that it would be really nice if he didn't wipe
> his files of the fixed stars off my computer - if he felt that was
> okay. Of course, I said that I wouldn't pass those files on to
> anyone else. Rob is an extremely generous person; he went home and
> very kindly left those files for me - which was a real beginning
> for me in fixed stars.
By the way, I once saw a guy on TV who lived near the equator
in Africa and demonstrated to tourists that water spirals the
other way round on the southern hemisphere than on the northern
one. He held a bucket filled with water with a piece of wood
floating inside. And, sure enough, he walked a few meters south
and the piece of wood started to turn the other way round.
Of course, that was a trick. I guess, he was simply giving the
bucket a quick slight impulse in the corresponding rotational
direction. ;)
Alain Stalder
--
Martin Lewicki wrote:
> Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in
> news:astalder-3B719D.10005610112003@news.bluewin.ch:
>
> > [I am quoting in reverse order]
> >
> > "Martin Lewicki" <marty@mail.com> wrote:
> >> I might add that Ray Murphy has attempted to pave the way for some
> >> clarity in this NG by insisting on consistent use of the term
> >> Tropical Astrology and by defining what he means by it when he
> >> discusses his research.
> >
> > In my experience and view, Ray's posts are often quite
> > good, but they are also usually rather of a general
> > nature, which is why (since he is posting quite a lot)
> > he often says the same things in reply to many different
> > topics, sometimes repeatedly in the same thread.
> >
> > It often looks to me like some people are trying to
> > discuss a practical question within a rather well defined
> > set of assumptions, and then are confronted with repeated
> > citations by Heraclitus that are general, eternal insights
> > into life, philosophical points of view that go beyond
> > making the usual assumptions. It is important to be
> > reminded of that from time to time, but when repeated over
> > and over again, it can annoy other posters. I am aware that
> > Sagittarius is in Pluto now, but still: Zeus only throws
> > bolts of lightning relatively rarely, but then very
> > efficiently, even though they usually appear random to
> > people on earth.
> >
> > I am also aware that tropical astrology is not ideal for
> > a continent like Australia in the southern hemisphere,
> > since the star signs are quite well adapted to seasons.
> > (For example, imagine having to bring in and sort the
> > harvest when the sun is (tropically) in Pisces). I think
> > that is also one important reason why it was an Australian,
> > Bernadette Brady, who went back to the fixed stars, to
> > stellar parans.
>
> I don't think Bernadette Brady had a problem with Sth Tropical Astrology.
> Her interest in fixed stars is really for their own sake. Being a denizen
> of south latitudes myself, I must say that Sth Tropical sign types are
> still the same. No flipping to opposite in my observation. If there were an
> hemisphere flipped zodiac then we'd have a dillema for those on or near the
> equator. Merely shifting a meter from north to south of the eqautor
> would presumably switch the whole life pattern.
>
> >
> > I guess you are probably aware of Robert Hand's essay about
> > the Age and constellation of Pisces. There he predicts a shift
> > of focus towards the east, i.e. also towards Australia.
> > I have mentioned in a recent post to aat (actually the first
> > in this 3rd usenet loop of mine) that many recent blockbuster
> > movies have been turned in Australia, especially those that
> > start at the same date worldwide.
> >
> > On the afternoon of 9/11, just before the first plane hit
> > one of the two towers (that was in the afternoom Swiss time),
> > I heard a song by Kylie Minogue for the first time:
> >
> > "Can't get you out of my mind"
> >
> > Even though she sings "lalala..." many times in the song, the
> > song has a very hard beat beneath the surface, fitting very well
> > with the situation that afternoon, with some harmonic aspects
> > hiding the tough hammering of Saturn against Pluto. Liz Greene
> > identifies such charts as typical charts for beginnings of wars:
> > http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_wtc_e.htm
> >
> >> I'm not trying to be antagonistic here but the New Age very often
> >> appropriates scientific terminology to convey mysterious phenomena as
> >> if the terminlogy actually expains it (like business speak) when in
> >> fact it explains very little. This does not matter when New Agers are
> >> talking among themselves because explanations are not so important as
> >> the strange experiences themselves and what they mean. But in
> >> dialogue with a scientifically trained community and even with
> >> "neutral onlookers" it mearly perpetuats more confusion than clarity.
> >
> > I agree. Aquarius is an Air sign, language is important there and,
> > because he is so great at bending things to unify them, sometimes
> > language can be bent so far to become dangerous. I am thinking here
> > about the terms that the Nazis used instead of "Genocide", like
> > "Final Solution" etc. Now, after 7 years with Uranus in Aquarius
> > there are a few new words too, some of which can be dangerous.
> > For example, "Peace Making" instead of "War". For many people
> > directly affected, the difference might be much smaller than the
> > different words imply.
> >
> > In about 1995 or so, I saw a movie by Wim Wenders called "Far away,
> > so close". It predicted already quite a bit of what was about to
> > come in the next few years. In the first part of the movie, people
> > travel quickly from country to country, using lots of technological
> > gadgets, and there was even a precognition of the semitransparent
> > (Apple) computers, in form of a translucent blue fridge.
> >
> > In the second part of the movie, they end their journey in Australia,
> > near a sacred place for the Aborigines. There they meet an old
> > scientist who is trying to make dreams visible, if I remember
> > correctly, to give his wife back vision (she is blind). But this
> > is only his desire, his wife is not so much interested in gaining
> > her vision back.
> >
> > I had gone to that movie the first day it came into cinemas in
> > Zurich. Astonishingly (and this has never again happened to me)
> > Wim Wenders was present too, with his girlfriend of the time,
> > who was also one of the main actors in the movie. He told the
> > audience after the movie about his grandmother who was blind
> > and with who he used to talk.
> >
> > Aquarius has the tendency to want to make everything equal.
> > There are several ways to achieve this. In the Soviet Union,
> > there was a separate city for blind people, so people in most
> > of the Soviet Union would be more equal and the blind people
> > in their place would be equal too. I still prefer a solution
> > where technology is used to give blind people some of the same
> > possibilities back and let them live where they want. But,
> > I also think people should also be allowed to keep their
> > differences, if they want so. Not having vision, also opens
> > the other senses up, even though certainly nobody would like
> > to actually loose his/her eye sight.*
> >
> >> This is why the PEAR group in the link that I supplied earlier are
> >> acutely aware of the ligustic perils when writing about their
> >> research in the field of "human-machine-anomalies". They take a lot
> >> of care in their papers to precisly define terms in context of
> >> science, psychology and metaphysics. This way we have a clear road
> >> map for futher discussion and dailog between parties coming from
> >> their respective positions such as physics, psychology, metaphysics
> >> and yes, even astrology.
> >
> > I am not arguing with that. It appears to me though, that their
> > experiments are maybe also a bit too unnatural. They use little
> > boxes with random generators that people carry around to search
> > for correlations between what people think. Why then, would
> > those little boxes care much about what people think ? Isn't
> > it mainly people who care about other people ? Why not measure
> > the activities of the brains directly and then look for
> > correlations ?
>
> Well, they *are* engineers and the fact the machines can measurably and
> relpicatably ineract with consciouness constitutes the kind of consistent
> hard eveidence that previous parapsychology has failed to deliver. Machines
> are also easier to control in the lab and are likely to deliver
> more reliable results. I think this has yet unrecognized far-reaching
> implications. Recall that once upon a time binary arthmetic was considered
> a curious but useless endeavour.
>
> At any rate they have also been measuring human anomalous interaction in
> many of their experiments with consistent replicatable results. See the
> section on "Remote Perception' in the link further down. Maybe this looks
> all pedestrian to New Agers who claim they knew this all along - so what.
> But it is of great importance to us all because the scientific community
> has more influence/information/education reach to decision makers than
> NewAgers. The knowlegde gained and dissemintated in anomalies research by
> the scientific community will have a greater effect on paradigms and world
> views and is more likey to attract well funded interest for further
> reserch. That is, it is more contribute to a transformation in the way we
> view consciousness.
>
> > I had looked at their web site for quite some time about a year
> > ago or so, but except maybe for some slight indications, I could
> > not find anything that would actually prove correlations from
> > their data and analysis. Do you have a different opinion there ?
> > If yes: Any more precise links where to look there or to what
> > to pay attention to ?
>
> If you haven't seen them already I think their essay "Science of the
> Subjective" and "Consciousness and Anomalous Physical Phenomena" are good
> introductuion to their philsophical approach. Included are detail papers of
> thier methodoloy, analyisis and results. You'll find these at
> http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/publist.html along with their other
> publications, most of which are free pdf downloads.
>
> Also you might like to visit http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse.html
> a peer reviewed research on the stuff that most scientist won't touch.
> Click on "Selected Articles" for free pdf's. The members are university
> luminaries and like the PEAR group are run on private funding, for obvious
> reasons.
>
> > Finally, a general comment about "Invisible Things in Astrology":
> > It is still a craft and most of what is happening it still
> > unconscious to most people doing it. This is also natural, since
> > it is still mainly women who are doing astrology, and women, in
> > my experience, often do more things unconsciously, collectively,
> > than men. Teaser: Hypothesis H23 in
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
>
>
> > Alain Stalder
> >
> > --
> > * Aquarius is the old Air sign. Already the adult Air sign,
> > Libra looses sight (has to, to some degree). See e.g. Psyche's
> > fourth task where she has to follow her plan to retrieve
> > something from the underworld, ignoring some suffering people
> > along the way (section 3.15 in discoveries.pdf). Or see
> > Teiresias who looses eye sight to be less diverted by the
> > beauty of nature/women to be able to focus more on abstract
> > beauty (section 3.9.7 in discoveries.pdf).
> >
> > In the end, in Aquarius many people just bend things so that
> > everybody believes that everybody is equal. That is probably
> > going to change a bit when Uranus moves ahead into Pisces.
> > Once something is the same for everybody, it becomes totally
> > transparent, it looses importance so completely for most
> > people that the remaining differences become a lot more
> > evident again. So, the world might become a bit more interesting
> > in the years to come, although, since Neptune remains in
> > Aquarius, some things will probably remain the same.
> >
>
> Martin Lewicki
[reposting, since approved at aam web page,
but not appearing on any actual newsgroups]
Christine wrote:
> TAKEN FROM ANOTHER THREAD.
>
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in bericht
> news:astalder-BBE6B4.16180009112003@news.bluewin.ch...
> [..]
> > I always thought BML to be the wrong name:
> >
> > At one focal point you have Earth, the other one
> > would then logically rather be Black Earth than
> > Black Moon. It is a projection of a point inside
> > the Earth into space, i.e. a projection, exposition
> > of the underworld/hell. So you get the contrast
> > between regular "white" Earth (Taurus) and Black
> > Earth Lilith (Scorpio), fitting with the origins
> > of the mythology in matriarchal times in the Age
> > of Taurus.
> >
> > Fortunately, BEL still rimes with hell...
> >
> > Alain Stalder
>
> An interesting theory, Alain, which by its placing could well show where '
> hell on earth' is experienced.
> But wouldn't such a point then be better called simply Black Earth or Black
> Adam? Why involve Lilith?
> If the significance of the Moon's effect is not to enter into the theory,
> why keep to a woman's name?; unless it's easier to shift and place the blame
> for the evils of man upon a woman?
> Maybe it's Black Moon Lilith that says, " No way, Jose," and throws that
> projection right back where it
> belongs :-)
>
> Regards,
> Christine.
I see the two earths as the two mercurial sides of Virgo,
the central (adult) earth sign. In another thread, H and
LL briefly discussed the military trying to tell people
in which positions to have sex. That was exactly the issue
between Adam and Lilith; she refused sex in a position
in which she would be inferior to man.
I am not saying that the moon has no place in Lilith.
There is a strong correlation from Virgo to moon.
Virgo and Scorpio are the two female adult signs. Whereas
Earth is dry, hence harder, either stays as it is or else
breaks, Water is wet, can bend and flow. That is a normal
development during the life of an adult woman.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf, section
3.9.8 Scorpio, Themes:
: Psyche's second task is to bring back some fleece from fierce
: rams that live near a river. When she gets there, she is lulled
: into sleep by waving reeds and when she awakes, the rams are
: asleep so that she can easily collect some fleece that have
: stuck to thorny bushes.
:
: Women are physically less strong than men. In order to reach
: their goals, they eventually have to give in to a man, to break
: the tension and to allow themselves to lose control for some time,
: to later collect the fruits that have been produced by men's power.
: Of course, also the fierce rams, the reeds, the thorny bushes,
: the river, etc. describe aspects of Scorpio, as well as of Mars
: and Aries.
Link to Psyches's tasks:
http://eserver.org/books/apuleius/bookes/five.html
(look for the paragraph that starts with "This proclamation was
the cause that put all doubt from Psyches, who was scantly come
in the sight of the house of Venus").
Alain Stalder
Boyd Blaire wrote:
> Astrology and "psychic ability" doesn't require any laws of physics to
> explain.
Of course, that claim is only falsifiable.
:) :) :)
H wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:astalder-1247CC.20585312112003@news.bluewin.ch...
> >That was exactly the issue
> > between Adam and Lilith; she refused sex in a position
> > in which she would be inferior to man.
>
> So what's the scoop here-- Lilith gets a bad rap just because she had a mind
> of her own and wasn't going to be told what to do? ;-)
Yes, I guess so. :)
I am not a historian, but here's the usual story (which
appears at least to be somewhat disputed):
In ancient times, men did not make the connection between
sex and birth of babies, so they admired women so much for
it that they let them rule. But once they realized that
they had also an important role in making babies, they
thought "hey, we have the big muscles" and took over. Very
roughly that would have been around the transition between
the female Age of Taurus and the male Age of Aries (which
also coincides with the start of Jewish religion with a
male, invisible creator god, although apparently the story
of Adam and Lilith can only be traced back to within the Age
of Pisces). Today, near or in the Age of Aquarius, muscle
power is no longer the most important criterion -- conscious,
abstract concepts, also of equality, are shifting things.
So women are gaining ground in typically male domains, but,
at the same time, men (and thus science) will also enter
previously mostly female domains, like also astrology.
Clearly, a new agreement needs to be reached. But that can
also be fun. ;)
And, as it happened previously, women will in the end very
probably keep control about the most important things like
fate and death. (See e.g. the piece of mythology that Liz
Greene retells in chapter 6 of "The Astrology of Fate",
between Rhea and Zeus. Intestingly, I already mentioned
that part to Christine roughly a year ago). Still fun :)
Alain Stalder
DJ <doovinator@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>Sharyn wrote:
> >> I know your posts did not get a lot of response, Alain, and I regret the
> > lack of time I personally had to talk with you, as I have found your ideas
> > consistently very interesting. I have a bit more time coming up, and I hope
> > to see more from you in the future.
>
> >Not many replies in the form of actual posts maybe,
> but emotionally almost always a much better reception
> than anywhere else on usenet.
>
> >Alain Stalder
>
> ------
> I found the series very interesting, too, but for
> comments, didn't see any I could make that would
> improve anything. Like finely polished jewels, I'd
> look at them, appreciate them, but didn't want to take
> a hammer and chisel and try to "fix" anything on them.
>
>
>
> =====
> ~DJ
Thanks a lot. It is not always easy for me to estimate
how what I write is received. Thanks again! :)
Alain
Pfhhhh... usenet...
Pfhhhh...
Can really disgust me...
Bye
In article <bp3ngd$bl0$2@reader10.wxs.nl>,
"Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in bericht
> news:astalder-1247CC.20585312112003@news.bluewin.ch...
>
> [..]>
> > I see the two earths as the two mercurial sides of Virgo,
> > the central (adult) earth sign. In another thread, H and
> > LL briefly discussed the military trying to tell people
> > in which positions to have sex.
>
> That was exactly the issue
> > between Adam and Lilith; she refused sex in a position
> > in which she would be inferior to man.
>
>
> Hello again,
>
> I think the 'issue' was, in fact, that Lilith, representing the active
> inner feeling essence that is feminine of quality, refused to be dominated
> by Adam,
> representing the outer active physical that is masculine of quality, i.e
> MAN-ifestation. Lying in the supposedly submissive position was just one
> small facet of this issue, but which has since been used to sensationalise
> the
> whole meaning of Lilith.
> IMHO, the 'issue' was the right of total equality between the active senses
> and the physical.
> It is for this reason that Lilith's position in a chart shows up just as
> strongly in a male chart as it does in a female chart. IMHO it shows where
> total equality between masculine and feminine, i.e. manifestation and
> feeling, is
> lacking or not apparent because something natural in one's nature is not
> allowed to show itself because it goes against what Saturn has ruled well or
> not acceptable.
> And even in this day and age, a woman 'on top' or 'at the top'
> is still psychologically viewed with entirely different eyes than a male in
> the
> same position.
>
> >
> > I am not saying that the moon has no place in Lilith.
> > There is a strong correlation from Virgo to moon.
> >
>
> Virgo certainly has tendancies towards modesty, decorum, norms of the
> old-fashioned way, and the chastity
> belt in days of old. But I think the Pluto in Virgo generation totally
> altered that view
> for another 250 years :-)
>
>
> > Virgo and Scorpio are the two female adult signs. Whereas
> > Earth is dry, hence harder, either stays as it is or else
> > breaks, Water is wet, can bend and flow. That is a normal
> > development during the life of an adult woman.
> >
>
> ' Normal' according to whose terms and rules, and why does it apply only to
> an adult woman?
> Adult men undergo the same, except they have far more difficulty expressing
> this side of themselves because
> it is not considered natural or 'normal'.
>
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf, section
> > 3.9.8 Scorpio, Themes:
> > : Psyche's second task is to bring back some fleece from fierce
> > : rams that live near a river. When she gets there, she is lulled
> > : into sleep by waving reeds and when she awakes, the rams are
> > : asleep so that she can easily collect some fleece that have
> > : stuck to thorny bushes.
> > :
> > : Women are physically less strong than men.
>
> However, I think it is almost a known fact that most women are emotionally
> stronger than men....as per Lilith :-)
> Just as there are men who are not at all physically strong and/or are
> emotionally
> weak.
>
> In order to reach
> > : their goals, they eventually have to give in to a man, to break
> > : the tension and to allow themselves to lose control for some time,
> > : to later collect the fruits that have been produced by men's power.
>
> If a woman loses control and submits, then she is RE-acting through the
> Moon's response to outer stimuli, and not through Lilith.
> When a man loses his power of self control and submits, it's usually *to*
> Lilith......although he'd probably never admit it !
>
> > : Of course, also the fierce rams, the reeds, the thorny bushes,
> > : the river, etc. describe aspects of Scorpio, as well as of Mars
> > : and Aries.
>
> Which Libra either opposes or cojoins...the seeking of expression of
> total equality... as per Lilith.
>
> >
> > Link to Psyches's tasks:
> > http://eserver.org/books/apuleius/bookes/five.html
> > (look for the paragraph that starts with "This proclamation was
> > the cause that put all doubt from Psyches, who was scantly come
> > in the sight of the house of Venus").
> >
>
> I believe Psyche is similar to Venus, but imho Lilith can represent the
> active inner feeling sense within Venus AND any of the other planets.
>
> > Alain Stalder
> >
>
> Regards,
> Christine.
>
>
>
I forgot to say:
I have seldom seen somebody who is a false as you.
In my view, the rejection of your post to aat had
been entirely justified. You knew precisely what
you were doing.
In article <astalder-FC8602.03321215112003@news.bluewin.ch>,
Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> Pfhhhh... usenet...
>
> Pfhhhh...
>
> Can really disgust me...
>
> Bye
>
>
> In article <bp3ngd$bl0$2@reader10.wxs.nl>,
> "Christine" <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> > "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in bericht
> > news:astalder-1247CC.20585312112003@news.bluewin.ch...
> >
> > [..]>
> > > I see the two earths as the two mercurial sides of Virgo,
> > > the central (adult) earth sign. In another thread, H and
> > > LL briefly discussed the military trying to tell people
> > > in which positions to have sex.
> >
> > That was exactly the issue
> > > between Adam and Lilith; she refused sex in a position
> > > in which she would be inferior to man.
> >
> >
> > Hello again,
> >
> > I think the 'issue' was, in fact, that Lilith, representing the active
> > inner feeling essence that is feminine of quality, refused to be dominated
> > by Adam,
> > representing the outer active physical that is masculine of quality, i.e
> > MAN-ifestation. Lying in the supposedly submissive position was just one
> > small facet of this issue, but which has since been used to sensationalise
> > the
> > whole meaning of Lilith.
> > IMHO, the 'issue' was the right of total equality between the active senses
> > and the physical.
> > It is for this reason that Lilith's position in a chart shows up just as
> > strongly in a male chart as it does in a female chart. IMHO it shows where
> > total equality between masculine and feminine, i.e. manifestation and
> > feeling, is
> > lacking or not apparent because something natural in one's nature is not
> > allowed to show itself because it goes against what Saturn has ruled well or
> > not acceptable.
> > And even in this day and age, a woman 'on top' or 'at the top'
> > is still psychologically viewed with entirely different eyes than a male in
> > the
> > same position.
> >
> > >
> > > I am not saying that the moon has no place in Lilith.
> > > There is a strong correlation from Virgo to moon.
> > >
> >
> > Virgo certainly has tendancies towards modesty, decorum, norms of the
> > old-fashioned way, and the chastity
> > belt in days of old. But I think the Pluto in Virgo generation totally
> > altered that view
> > for another 250 years :-)
> >
> >
> > > Virgo and Scorpio are the two female adult signs. Whereas
> > > Earth is dry, hence harder, either stays as it is or else
> > > breaks, Water is wet, can bend and flow. That is a normal
> > > development during the life of an adult woman.
> > >
> >
> > ' Normal' according to whose terms and rules, and why does it apply only to
> > an adult woman?
> > Adult men undergo the same, except they have far more difficulty expressing
> > this side of themselves because
> > it is not considered natural or 'normal'.
> >
> > > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf, section
> > > 3.9.8 Scorpio, Themes:
> > > : Psyche's second task is to bring back some fleece from fierce
> > > : rams that live near a river. When she gets there, she is lulled
> > > : into sleep by waving reeds and when she awakes, the rams are
> > > : asleep so that she can easily collect some fleece that have
> > > : stuck to thorny bushes.
> > > :
> > > : Women are physically less strong than men.
> >
> > However, I think it is almost a known fact that most women are emotionally
> > stronger than men....as per Lilith :-)
> > Just as there are men who are not at all physically strong and/or are
> > emotionally
> > weak.
> >
> > In order to reach
> > > : their goals, they eventually have to give in to a man, to break
> > > : the tension and to allow themselves to lose control for some time,
> > > : to later collect the fruits that have been produced by men's power.
> >
> > If a woman loses control and submits, then she is RE-acting through the
> > Moon's response to outer stimuli, and not through Lilith.
> > When a man loses his power of self control and submits, it's usually *to*
> > Lilith......although he'd probably never admit it !
> >
> > > : Of course, also the fierce rams, the reeds, the thorny bushes,
> > > : the river, etc. describe aspects of Scorpio, as well as of Mars
> > > : and Aries.
> >
> > Which Libra either opposes or cojoins...the seeking of expression of
> > total equality... as per Lilith.
> >
> > >
> > > Link to Psyches's tasks:
> > > http://eserver.org/books/apuleius/bookes/five.html
> > > (look for the paragraph that starts with "This proclamation was
> > > the cause that put all doubt from Psyches, who was scantly come
> > > in the sight of the house of Venus").
> > >
> >
> > I believe Psyche is similar to Venus, but imho Lilith can represent the
> > active inner feeling sense within Venus AND any of the other planets.
> >
> > > Alain Stalder
> > >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Christine.
> >
> >
> >
>
I wrote:
> ynotssor wrote:
> > "Delphi Twentine" <delphi29@excite.com> wrote in message
> > news:d12bedf0.0311021312.6a58dad4@posting.google.com
> > > Mars has pretty much detached from Uranus, does
> > > no longer care much about Uranus' single-mindedness
> > > in Aquarius, sees a few a lot more interesting
> > > things coming up. No more following of the "white
> > > rabbits" (e.g. H - symbol of Uranus - Herschel -
> > > herrschen=rule,reign, Hospital - Kill Bill,
> > > building for Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
> > > in "Mostly Harmless" - Tricia and hotel staff...)
> > >
> > > Although my post-odyssey.pdf posts were more of
> > > a private nature, they also contain warnings,
> > > also including, but of course not restricted to,
> > > me. The dangers of technology. At some point,
> > > Prometheus will steal the fire that he himself
> > > is not able to create from Apollon, and at some
> > > point Pandora's box will unavoidably be opened.
> > > At that point, the selection of hypotheses that
> > > will have been confirmed in experiment, will be
> > > unbiased, natural. What will count then will not
> > > be my shadow, but the shadow of the world.
> > >
> > > For me, the buck in usenet stops here.
> > >
> > > keyword: exactphilosophy
> >
> > Take some time off from the drugs. You'll feel much better.
> >
> > --
>
> Yes, usenet has the southern node in Pisces.
> It can be addictive.
I think the fates are happy now resp. have had enough.
This closes the third loop (Water, Venus, Heracles and
the Ceryneian Hind).
The next one will be different, will presumanly gently
help to prove Astrology within the years to come.
wei-chi
delphi29@excite.com
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Joe Estock:
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Joe Estock:
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Joe Estock:
: just a test
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Joe Estock:
: just a test
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* Adliswil
Pete P:
: The Marquis de Sade, for whom I can find no definitive birthtime, had
: Mars in Aries sq a Venus-Saturn conjunction in Cancer.
: He was born on June 2nd 1740, in Paris.
:
: His "counterpart", Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, was born in Lemberg,
: France, on Jan 27th 1836. Again, alas, no birthtime available.
collective angle:
de Sade: Uranus at southern node
von Sacher-Masoch: Varuna at same place
Hence darker side (s.n.) of modernity (Aquarius).
Also since born close to discoveries of Uranus/Neptune.
Prometheus (M) tied to rock, piece of liver (M) eaten each day
by an eagle (S) sent by Zeus (S).
Vampires are Aquarian too, reduce several dualities to
one (no mirror image, only night, no death), steal blood
(Fire) from others, sunlight (Fire, Leo) kills them, are a
child of modernity too.
de Sade's birthtime:
http://www.monsieurlesix.be/history/data.html
Book of Changes
Hi everybody,
With this post I would like to start writing a book.
First concrete posts will be about my view of the
signs as changes between elements, concretely first
Aries as a fire that is starting to burn.
That view is based on Aristotle's view of the world
composed of two opposites -- hot/cold and dry/wet --
that combine in four ways -- Fire/Air/Water/Earth
and can be changed into each other. It is also very
similar to the "I Ching", the Chinese book of changes
that has 8 "Elements" that transform into each other.
Other chapters will follow, say maybe "Houses by
Numbers", "Nodes as Gates" or others.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
Alan Williams (alco@nospam.demon.co.uk):
: From: Lubos Motl <motl@feynman.harvard.edu:
: Subject: The new sci.physics.strings newsgroup
: Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:01:38 -0500
: Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
:
:
: Dear astrologers!
:
: We proposed a new newgroup sci.physics.strings that should be dedicated to
: string/M-theory, a leading candidate to describe all matter and forces in
: terms of mathematical laws, and we also expect many well-known physicists
: to participate.
:
: String theory is not quite the same thing as astrology, but you might be
: interested in it - some (but not too many) string theorists are interested
: in astrology. ;-)
:
: Before the newsgroup is founded, we need a huge amount of YES votes in the
: USENET polls. You may join the discussions about the new
: sci.physics.strings newsgroup at
:
: news.groups
:
: which is another name of a newsgroup. You may also want to read:
:
: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/archives/000270.html
:
: In January, we will need hundreds of YES votes, including yours (and
: perhaps your friends).
:
: Thanks and best wishes
: Lubos
Here is some scientific and then symbolic information about
string theory, by a physicist (me):
The basic idea is that the world is not made of pointlike
elementary particles, but of (very small) strings that
oscillate. The elementary particles that we know (like
electrons, photons (light particles), etc.) would then
all be the same kind of string, but each oscillating at
a different frequency. M-theory is a generalization to
oscillating membranes, or bodies in 3 or more dimensions.
Originally, string theory was invented for understanding
the strong interaction (one of the four known forces in
nature, besides weak, electromagnetic and gravitational
force) in about 1967. That did not work out, and string
theory became a prominent idea for a theory that would
be able to describe all four forces at once ("Grand
Unified Theory"). The problem was only that forces would
only be unified at very high energies, and there was an
enormous step of calculating whether our known physics
would emerge at low energies for which experiments
exist. As far I as know, all attempts to do so have not
been successful so far. On the other hand, string theory
has some beautiful features, so people remain fascinated
by it, even if the devil's advocate would tentatively
call it a theory without application, i.e. rather math
than physics so far.
Symbolically, string theory is a variation of Pythagoras'
idea that he - according to legend - had when he heard
a smith hammer onto an anvil, namely to describe the
world by different frequencies, by eigenfrequencies, by
numbers. I guess it was mainly Plato who picked up that
idea, which, in my view, is mainly aquarian or at least
airy (or at least rather wet than dry). Of course, that
same basic idea, the music of the spheres, is also very
important in astrology.
A few years ago, I read a book that contained a series
of radio interviews with string physicist. Most of them
were actively involved in the research and seemed very
convinced of it on focussed on it. Richard Feynman was
interviewed too, and did acknowledge the idea, but only
as one of many possible ideas, not necessarily as good
and unique as most others considered it. Symbolically,
I see a more playful, younger air sign (Gemini, Mercury)
in Feynman's work in general, which is different from
aquarian unification. But he was also careful enough to
note that in his time, older physicists were also not
fond of what Feynman and others of his age were doing,
and it was still successful.
So far, string theory appears to have had a similar fate
than Pan, never really successful in anything particular,
but also never dying. That was my first impression when
I read the above post, which had been posted just around
the winter solistice. In that sense: String theory is dead.
Long live string theory. Good luck!
Alain Stalder
CINDY WELSH (res6mm0t@verizon.net):
: The "guff" is a term the Talmud uses to refer to the repository of all
: unborn souls. Literally, the word "guff" means "body."
:
: The old Christian texts say that when the guff of souls is empty, Christ's
: second coming will occur. The Talmud says that The 'Son of David' will not
: arrive until the guff is empty -- until every soul there is born into the
: physical world.
:
: Maybe Talmudic sources would have reference to the astrology or numerology
: of the guff since a lot of Jewish scholars still search through the
: Kabbalistic Secrets.
:
: I know there's a hookup somewhere... I just don't know where to find it!
Just around the initial post I had been reading
the following by Taoist philosopher Chuang-Tsu:
: [BOOK VII. For Usage by Kings and Princes
: 7. The Death of the Unconscious] The ruler of the
: southern sea was the Shimmering, the ruler of the
: northern sea was the Rider-Up [German: Zufahrende],
: the ruler of the middle was the Unconscious.
: The Shimmering and the Rider-Up often met in the
: land of the Unconscious and the Unconscious was
: always friendly with them. The Shimmering and the
: Rider-Up now considered how they could reward him.
: They spoke: "All people have seven openings, for
: seeing, hearing, eating and breathing, only he has
: none. We should try to bore him them."
: So they bore him an opening every day. At the
: seventh day, he was dead.
There is a footnote about the translation to the
word "Unconscious": "[...] describes the state of
inseparateness before the beginning of the world".
Sounds very similar to the "Guff" to me. Also the
triple reference to the number 7 (section titles
twice, story once) point to the seventh planet,
Saturn, the last one known in antiquity and hence
associated with death, at least with death of the
body (earth).
So, maybe Saturn and/or the number 7 would be a good
hookup to start. (Digging is dangerous: Also around
the time of the first post, about 200 people died
in China, near the world's biggest city, Chuang-Ching,
due to earth gas that had evaporated very quickly due
to an accident while boring for earth gas.)
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Book of Changes - Signs by Elements
The four elements go in a cycle. Fire goes up
from earth into air -- that is also spring.
Air is the cloud that balances in the air,
receives water from the sea and lets it rain
down again, receives and emits lightning (fire)
from and to the ground (earth) -- summer. Water
falls and flows down as rain and rivers to the
ground and into the sea -- autumn. The earth is
usually resting calmly -- winter -- steadily
releasing water in the mountains and eruptively
creating fire from volcanoes and burning plants.
Abstractly, fire that Aristotle viewed as dry
and hot becomes wet (air), then cold (water),
dry again (earth) and finally hot (fire) again.
Aristotle had the seasons assigned differently
than me, but my approach as a physicist is to
come from observation of people and nature
again, and to find the best fit, hopefully also
profiting from the insights that the world has
gained -- also through suffering -- during the
previous 2000 years in the age of Pisces.
Each of the three signs of each element is a stage
in a transition -- young to adult to old.
A fire starts burning wood (earth, Aries), then
steadily transforms wood into smoke (air, Leo),
ending its life mainly as smoke and imagination
(Sagittarius).
Air is a cloud that first emits lots of lightning
(fire, Gemini), then rain starts (balance between
fire and water, Libra), and finally rain alone is
equally distributed over everybody (Aquarius).
Water is first a spring that erupts up in the
mountains (earth, Cancer), mixes with other waters
into a stream (Scorpio) and finally flows into the
sea where it again evaporates (air, Pisces).
Earth is a tree that has beautiful flowers in the
sun (fire, Taurus), but also needs water from below
to feed it through its roots that keep it also from
falling down (water, Capricorn), both to be balanced
in the middle, adult earth sign -- Virgo.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
Sharyn (sharyn721@adelphia.not):
: How about the ongoing work on supersymmetry/superpartners? What are your
: thoughts on that?
Supersymmetry is a symmetry between Bosons (spin 0,1,2,..)
and Fermions (spin 1/2,3/2,..). Matter is composed of
Fermions (electrons, protons, neutrons are all spin 1/2).
Stability of matter is also due to symmetry properties:
no two spin 1/2 particles can be at the same place in the
same quantum state. Bosons mediate forces (e.g. photon
= quantum of light, spin 1). There can be any number of
them at the same place in the same state.
For these reasons, I am tempted to relate Fermions to
earth (matter) and Bosons to fire (light). Supersymmetry
would then be mercurial (earth+fire=4+1=5).
Turning things around, the fact that, say, Bosons do not
disturb each other, reminds me of a statement by a Swiss
astrologer who said that several fire signs working
together at the same place at the same project is usually
quite a harmonic affair.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
About 5 days ago I read two short stories by Heinrich
von Kleist (*1777). The second one is a romantic story
about a few people who miraculously survived the 1647
earthquake that destroyed practically all of Santiago
de Chile.
There is lots of harmony in the story (n.node currently
trine Jupiter), lots of misunderstandings through which
some people die and others live (n.node quincunx Pluto)
and twists in general (Mercury retrograde).
If you go to google.com, search for "kleist earthquake"
(without quotes) and use a little twist with the first
link that comes up (clicking too directly will not do),
you might even be able to read the story online...
Here is the first paragraph of the story:
: In Santiago, the capital of the kingdom of Chile, at the moment
: of the great earthquake of 1647 in which many thousands lost their
: lives, a young Spaniard called Jeronimo Rugera was standing beside
: one of the pillars in the prison to which he had been committed on
: a criminal charge, and was about to hang himself. A year or so
: previously Don Enrico Asteron, one of the richest noblemen of the
: city, had turned him out of his house where he had been employed as
: a tutor, for being on too intimate a footing with Asteron's only
: daughter, Dona Josefa. She herself was sternly warned, but owing to
: the malicious vigilance of her proud brother she was discovered
: nevertheless in a secret rendezvous with Jeronimo, and this so
: aroused her old father's indignation that he forced her to enter
: the Carmelite convent of Our Lady of the Mountain.
Link to German original:
http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/kleist/erdbeben/chili.htm
Alain Stalder
Book of Changes - Signs by Elements - Basic Opposites
Before I describe the elements, a dictionary of
the basic opposites is necessary.
Hot/cold corresponds to day/night, because during
the day it is warmer than during the night. Day/night
corresponds to light/dark (obviously), active/passive
and conscious/unconscious, because people are awake
during the day and sleep at night. The hot elements
either rise (fire) or are up (air), the cold ones
either flow down (water) or are below (earth).
Men were traditionally "on top" during sex, as well
as more active -- for the part of sex that is needed
for reproduction, the latter is even naturally so.
Hence hot/cold corresponds to male/female.
Dry/wet corresponds to hard/soft, brittle/malleable,
fine/coarse. The inside of many things is wetter than
the outside, hence dry/wet corresponds to out/in.
This has more profound consequences, to be exposed later.
Before birth, the world is wet, soft and warm. Thus
the experience of the opposites hot/cold and dry/wet
(=soft/hard=in/out) is one of the first experiences
that a newborn child makes. This can surely be called
an elementary experience -- according to Aristotle,
elements are what one can touch.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
Book of Changes - Signs by Elements - Air
A cloud rests above in the sky, yet air is male,
hence active: The cloud must constantly communicate,
receives water from below through the power of the
sun (fire) and rains down water. Lightning goes from
one electical pole to another, either down from the
cloud, up to it or within it. In any case, lightning
re-balances electrical charge.
A cloud oversees the earth below it like no other
element -- air has an objective view on reality.
But one thing that air cannot not see well, is itself
(air is invisible). Pure logic (mathematics) cannot be
proven by logic alone (i.e. mathematically) to be free
of contradictions. In any logical construct of more
than trivial size, there are statements that can be
either true or false, but undecidable within the system.
Air can communicate and store information about the
other elements more objectively than any other element,
but it cannot replace them. "750nm wavelength" is not
the same as the experience of the color "red". A theory
of everthing would still not be the same as everything,
and it would not be provable that the theory would be
complete and free of contradictions. (This very text is
also prone to such critisism -- after all, it tries to
describe all four elements by words).
So there is communication, balance, overview,
objectivity -- but also problems with subjectivity
(self-reference) -- from a simple image (of a cloud)
that everybody can reproduce in their imagination
from the few words that are communicated in this text.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
Book of Changes - Signs by Elements - Aries
Any description of a star sign is incomplete.
I hope, however, to convey some of the richness
that lays within the elementary approach and
which -- with some practice -- is well within
reach for everybody.
Aries is a young fire, one that just starts to
burn and fights to grow up. There is lots of wood
(earth) to be transformed into smoke (air), yet.
Still, the importance of the air in "Air"-ies
is not to be underestimated -- fire needs both
matter and air to burn.
First earth. An newborn child only has a body (earth),
but no knowledge (air) yet. A kid argues based on
immedatiate reality -- "I am hungry", "I am cold",
ignoring larger scale connections. But the strive
is up into the air, towards more knowledge.
Air provides a more gentle angle. One needs to blow
strongly to turn embers into a flame. Once there is
a little flame, it has to be protected from too much
wind and gently guided by air towards more wood so
that it can grow.
Unlike for the older fire signs, Leo and Sagittarius,
the wound that is caused by the burning and hence
disappearing wood (earth, body) is not yet causing
much pain, only maybe some impulse to act.
So there is a fight up towards higher goals, insights
and knowledge (air), and a drive to protect the weak.
[More aspects to follow another time...]
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
Book of Changes - Signs by Elements - Aries-Pisces
A look at the origins of the gentleness of air
that guides the young flame in Aries...
Pisces, the old air sign, is the ocean that
contains all streams of the world that have flown
into it. So it contains the knowledge of all
individual strands of fate. Pisces is also the
third phase of water (ice-water-vapour), so by
evaporation, it clarifies (vapour is invisible)
and expands the knowledge about human nature.
It is this air that is creating, driving and
guiding the young flame towards new places where
new things need to be created. So, even though
Aries argues usually based on immediately
verifiable reality (earth), where he is heading
is a more subtle affair of which he is typically
not fully consciously aware -- how could he be,
he is far yet from understanding the complexity
of nature, almost a year away.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
In the evening of December 11th, I asked my discoveries
document http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
for the first time a concrete question, namely for help
about what to do about the discoveries. The answer
(obtained as usual by tossing 17 coins and letting them
point into my text version of the document) was
TTTT'TTHH'HTTTT'HTTTT'T = 1808, which points directly
into the abstract:
: The meanings associated with star sig*n*s themselves derive
: from different mixtures of the four classical elements,
: more specifically, from meanings associated with transitions
: from one element to another.
That is my main discovery (hypothesis H14b), the one
that -- to my best knowledge -- nobody had before me.
(Most of the rest had probably been considered before,
although maybe often not in full clarity and context).
The "n" points towards the glyph of the northern node
and towards the "n" in northern and node, which I have
in Taurus, about where it is presently. Last, but not
least, it points also towards the glyph of my sun sign.
There is the origin of my "Book of Changes" posts, and,
-- although I had always been disappointed by the cold
or at most lukewarm reception of my major discovery in
public -- I am maybe most astonished right now by the
richness of my elementary approach to star signs.
I hope to convey that feeling during the years to come.
Alain Stalder
Pete (me@myname999999.fleaswerve.co.aq):
: Hi all,
: in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake that struck the ancient
: city of Bam in Iran on Boxing Day, at 5.28 am IRT, I wanted to look at
: the chart for the Capricorn Ingress to see if the were any astrological
: pointers that would hint at such mass destruction occurring just 4 days
: later.
[...]
: Comments?
Maybe a look at the ingress of Mars into Aries
or Uranus into Pisces would also be worth a try.
Or maybe also the moment that Mars was exactly
semi-square the northern node (1/8 of circle).
[Two more seeds, also to make it 8...]
Book of Changes - Reflection
Language is a cultural mirror of nature. What is
close in language, is often also close in nature.
The meaning of any thing is maybe best understood
by the structure of all associations to its word.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
[Two more seeds, also to make it 8...]
Book of Changes - Houses by Numbers
An astrological house is defined by two words,
the word "house" and its number. The idea is
now that the meaning of a particular house is
defined mainly by the structure of associations
to these two words. My ignorance of the meanings
of houses -- not being a professional astrologer
I hardly know the birth time of anybody I know
in person -- allows me maybe best to explore
this idea with minimal bias.
Different languages have different words for an
astrological house (e.g. field, templum), but it
is always a confined space.
The numbers 1 to 4 represent the elements in the
order fire-air-water-earth. The number 5 stands
for what transforms them into each other. Then
6-9 stand for the four possible transitions:
air: fire-air-water = 1+2+3 = 6
fire: earth-fire-air = 4+1+2 = 7
earth: fire-earth-water = 1+4+3 = 8
water: earth-water-air = 4+3+2 = 9
[More to come, of course...]
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen (Intro deutsche Ausgabe)
Hallo,
In den folgenden acht Artikeln sind elementare
Gedanken zur Astrologie. Ich habe sie während
der letzten Woche auf Englisch geschrieben und
auf alt.astrology.tropical veröffentlicht.
Da ich glaube, dass es auch im rein deutsch-
sprachigen Raum Leute gibt, die diese Gedanken
interessieren werden, habe ich sie übersetzt und
hier publiziert. Es sind die Samen für ein Buch,
das ich in den kommenden Jahren (im wesentlichen
öffentlich) zu schreiben beabsichtige.
Es ist noch offen, ob ich weiterhin auch relativ
unmittelbar (oder überhaupt) die Übersetzungen
ins Deutsche hier veröffentlichen werde.
Viel Vergnügen,
Alain Stalder
Buch der Wandlungen
Hallo allerseits,
Mit diesem Artikel, möchte ich ein Buch zu schreiben beginnen.
Erste konkrete Artikel werden meine Sicht der Sternzeichen
als Wandlungen zwischen Elementen beschreiben, konkret zuerst
Widder als ein Feuer, das zu brennen beginnt.
Diese Sicht basiert auf Aristoteles' Sicht der Welt als
zusammengesetzt aus zwei Gegensatzpaaren -- warm/kalt und
trocken/feucht -- die sich auf vier Arten zusammensetzen
lassen -- Feuer/Luft/Wasser/Erde und ineinander umgewandelt
werden können. Dies ist auch sehr ähnlich wie im "I Ging",
dem Chinesischen Buch der Wandlungen, wo sich 8 "Elemente"
ineinander wandeln.
Weitere Kapitel werden folgen, z.B. vielleicht "Häuser
durch Nummern", "Knoten als Tore" oder Andere.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen - Zeichen durch Elemente
Die vier Elemente gehen in einem Kreis. Feuer geht hoch
von der Erde in die Luft -- dies ist auch Frühling.
Luft ist die Wolke, die in der Luft balanciert, die
Wasser vom Meer erhält und es als Regen wieder runter
lässt, die Blitze aufnimmt und aussendet (Feuer), vom
und zum Boden (Erde) -- Sommer. Wasser fällt und fliesst
herunter als Regen und Flüsse zur Erde und in das Meer
-- Herbst. Die Erde verweilt meist ruhig -- Winter --
lässt kontinuierlich Wasser in den Bergen los und
erzeugt plötzlich Feuer aus Vulkanen und brennenden
Pflanzen.
Abstrakt wird Feuer, das Aristoteles als trocken und
heiss sah, feucht (Luft), dann kalt (Wasser), wieder
trocken (Erde) und endlich wieder heiss (Feuer).
Aristoteles hatte die Jahreszeiten in anderer Reihenfolge
als ich zugeordnet, aber mein Zugang als Physiker ist
wieder auf direkte Beobachtung von Leuten und der Natur
zurückzukommen, und so das zu finden, was am Besten passt,
dabei hoffentlich auch profitierend von den Einsichten,
die die Welt seither gewonnen hat -- auch durch Leiden
-- während den letzten 2000 Jahren im Fischezeitalter.
Jedes der drei Sternzeichen zu jedem Element ist eine
Phase in einem Übergang -- jung zu erwachsen zu alt.
Ein Feuer beginnt Holz (Erde, Widder) zu verbrennen,
dann verwandelt es stetig Holz in Rauch (Luft, Löwe)
und endet sein Leben meist als Rauch und Vorstellung
(Schütze).
Luft ist eine Wolke, die erst viele Blitze aussendet
(Feuer, Zwillinge), dann kommt der Regen (Gleichgewicht
von Feuer und Wasser, Waage), und schliesslich fällt nur
noch Regen gleichmässig verteilt über Jeden (Wassermann).
Wasser ist erst eine Quelle, die in den Bergen entspringt
(Erde, Krebs), mischt sich dann mit anderen Wassern zu
einem Strom (Skorpion) und fliesst schliesslich ins Meer,
von wo es wieder verdampft (Luft, Fische).
Erde ist ein Baum, der schöne Blüten in der Sonne hat
(Feuer, Stier), aber auch Wasser von unten benötigt,
die ihn durch seine Wurzeln ernähren, die ihn auch am
Umfallen hindern (Wasser, Steinbock), beides auszugleichen
durch das mittlere, erwachsene Erdzeichen -- Jungfrau.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen - Zeichen durch Elemente - Grundgegensätze
Bevor ich die Elemente beschreibe, ist ein Wörterbuch der
Grundgegensätze notwendig.
Heiss/kalt entspricht Tag/Nacht, weil es tagsüber wärmer ist
als nachts. Tag/Nacht entspricht hell/dunkel (offensichtlich),
aktiv/passiv und bewusst/unbewusst, weil Leute tagsüber wach
sind und nachts schlafen. Die heissen Elemente steigen (Feuer)
oder sind oben (Luft), die Kalten fliessen entweder runter
(Wasser) oder sind unten (Erde).
Männer waren traditionell "oben" beim Sex, und aktiver --
für den Teil des Sex, der für die Fortpflanzung notwendig ist,
ist Letzteres sogar natürlicherweise so. Daher entspricht
heiss/kalt männlich/weiblich.
Trocken/feucht entspricht hart/weich, brüchig/biegsam,
fein/grob. Das Innere von vielen Dingen ist feuchter als
das Äussere, also entspricht trocken/feucht aussen/innen.
Dies hat tiefergreifende Konsequenzen, für später.
Vor der Geburt ist die Welt feucht, weich und warm. Daher
ist die Erfahrung der Gegensätze warm/kalt und trocken/feucht
(=weich/hart=aussen/innen) eine der ersten Erfahrungen, die
ein neugeborenes Kind macht. Dies kann sicher ein elementares
Erlebnis genannt werden -- gemäss Aristoteles sind Elemente,
was sich berühren lässt.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen - Zeichen durch Elemente - Luft
Eine Wolke schwebt oben in der Luft, aber Luft ist männlich,
also aktiv: Die Wolke muss also konstant kommunizieren, sie
erhält Wasser von Unten durch die Kraft der Sonne (Feuer)
und regnet Wasser runter. Blitze gehen von einem Pol zum
Anderen, entweder runter von der Wolke, rauf zu ihr oder
innerhalb von ihr. In jedem Fall gleichen Blitze
elektrische Ladung wieder aus.
Eine Wolke übersieht die Erde unter ihr wie kein anderes
Element -- Luft hat eine objektive Sicht der Realität.
Aber eine Sache, die Luft kaum sehen kann, ist sie selbst
(Luft ist unsichtbar). Reine Logik (Mathematik) kann nicht
durch Logik alleine (d.h. mathematisch) als widerspruchsfrei
bewiesen werden. In jeder logischen Konstruktion von
nicht-trivialer Grösse, gibt es Aussagen, die entweder
wahr oder falsch sein können, sich aber innerhalb des
Systems nicht entscheiden lassen.
Luft kann Information kommunizieren und speichern wie kein
anderes Element, aber sie kann sie nicht ersetzen. "750nm
Wellenlänge" ist nicht dasselbe wie die Erfahrung der
Farbe "rot". Eine Theorie von Allem wäre dennoch nicht
dasselbe wie alles, und es wäre nicht beweisbar, dass die
Theorie vollständig und frei von Widersprüchen wäre.
(Dieser Text hier ist auch exponiert in dieser Hinsicht
-- schliesslich versucht er alle vier Elemente durch
Worte zu beschreiben).
Hier ist also Kommunikation, Balance, Übersicht,
Objektivität -- aber auch Probleme mit Subjektivität
(Selbstbezug) -- aus einem simplen Bild (einer Wolke),
das Jeder und Jede in der Vorstellung aus den paar
Worten, die in diesen Text kommuniziert wurden,
erzeugen kann.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen - Zeichen durch Elemente - Widder
Jede Beschreibung eines Sternzeichens ist unvollständig.
Ich hoffe, jedoch, dass ich einen Teil des Reichtums
vermitteln kann, der im elementaren Zugang liegt und
der -- mit etwas Übung -- für Jeden und Jede gut
erreichbar ist.
Widder ist ein junges Feuer, eines, das gerade zu brennen
begonnen hat und um das Wachsen kämpft. Es hat viel Holz
(Erde), das noch in Rauch (Luft) umgewandelt werden wird.
Trotzdem sollte die Bedeutung der Luft im Widder (engl.
"Aries", ausgesprochen "Air"-ies, "Air" = Luft) nicht
unterschätzt werden -- Feuer benötigt sowohl festes
Material als auch Luft zum Brennen.
Zuerst Erde. Ein neugeborenes Kind hat einen Körper
(Erde), aber noch kein Wissen (Luft). Ein Kind
argumentiert basierend auf unmittelbarer Realität
-- "Ich bin hungrig", "Ich habe kalt", ignoriert
dabei grössere Zusammenhänge. Doch der Drang ist
nach oben in die Luft, zu mehr Wissen und Können.
Luft liefert einen sanfteren Blickwinkel. Man muss
stark blasen um Glut in eine Flamme zu verwandeln.
Sobald es eine kleine Flamme hat, muss man sie vor
zu viel Wind schützen und sie sanft zu mehr Holz
führen, damit sie wachsen kann.
Anders als für die älteren Feuerzeichen, Löwe und
Schütze, verursacht die Wunde, die durch den Brand
und so durch das verschwindende Holz (Erde, Körper)
entsteht noch keine grossen Schmerzen, nur vielleicht
der Impuls zu handeln.
So gibt es einen Kampf zu höheren Zielen, Einsichten
und Wissen (Luft) und einen Drang, die Schächeren zu
schützen.
[Mehr Aspekte ein anderes Mal...]
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen - Zeichen durch Elemente - Widder-Fische
Ein Blick auf die Quelle der Sanftheit der Luft,
die die junge Flamme des Widders leitet...
Fische, das alte Wasserzeichen, ist der Ozean, der alle
Ströme und Flüsse der Welt enthält, die in ihn gemündet
haben. Daher enthält er das Wissen aller individueller
Schicksalsfäden. Fische sind auch die dritte Phase des
Wassers (Eis-Wasser-Dampf), deshalb, durch Verdampfen,
wird vieles klarer (Dampf ist unsichtbar) und erweitert
das Wissen über die menschliche Natur.
Es ist diese Luft, die die junge Flamme des Widders
erzeugt, treibt und zu neuen Orten führt, wo Neues
erzeugt werden muss. Daher ist wohin der Widder strebt,
auch wenn er typischerweise aufgrund unmittelbarer Realität
(Erde) argumentiert, eine subtilere Sache, derer er sich
typischerweise nicht bewusst ist -- wie könnte er auch,
er ist noch weit entfernt davon, die Komplexität der
Natur zu verstehen, fast ein Jahr entfernt.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen - Spiegelung
Sprache ist ein kultureller Spiegel der Natur. Was in
der Sprache nah ist, ist oft auch nahe in der Natur.
Die Bedeutung eines Dings ist vielleicht am Besten
verständlich durch die Struktur aller Assoziationen
zu seinem Wort.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Buch der Wandlungen - Häuser durch Nummern
Ein astrologisches Haus ist definiert durch zwei Worte,
das Wort "Haus" und seine Nummer. Die Idee ist jetzt,
dass die Bedeutung eines bestimmten Hauses massgeblich
durch die Struktur der Assoziationen zu diesen beiden
Worten definiert ist. Mein Unwissen um die Bedeutung
der Häuser -- ich bin kein professioneller Astrologe,
kenne kaum von jemandem, den/die ich persönlich kenne,
die Geburtszeit -- erlaubt mir vielleicht am Besten
diese Idee unbefangen zu erkunden.
Verschiedene Sprachen haben verschiedene Worte für ein
astrologisches Haus (z.B. Feld, Templum), aber es ist
immer ein beschränkter Raumteil.
Die Nummern 1 bis 4 repräsentieren die Elemente in
der Reihenfolge Feuer-Luft-Wasser-Erde. Die Nummer
5 steht für das, was sie ineinander umwandelt. Dann
stehen 6-9 für die möglichen Umwandlungen:
Luft: Feuer-Luft-Wasser = 1+2+3 = 6
Feuer: Erde-Feuer-Luft = 4+1+2 = 7
Erde: Feuer-Erde-Wasser = 1+4+3 = 8
Wasser: Erde-Wasser-Luft = 4+3+2 = 9
[Mehr kommt noch, natürlich...]
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
Sharyn (sharyn721@adelphia.not):
: "Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: news:astalder-ADC696.11590427122003@news.bluewin.ch...
: > Sharyn (sharyn721@adelphia.not):
: > : How about the ongoing work on supersymmetry/superpartners? What are your
: > : thoughts on that?
: >
: > Supersymmetry is a symmetry between Bosons (spin 0,1,2,..)
: > and Fermions (spin 1/2,3/2,..). Matter is composed of
: > Fermions (electrons, protons, neutrons are all spin 1/2).
: > Stability of matter is also due to symmetry properties:
: > no two spin 1/2 particles can be at the same place in the
: > same quantum state. Bosons mediate forces (e.g. photon
: > = quantum of light, spin 1). There can be any number of
: > them at the same place in the same state.
:
: Right, and I was thinking, if the operator Q, or supercharge is the thing
: that transforms fermions to bosons and visa versa, instead of allowing them
: to simply cancel each other out as opposites, does that correspond to Pluto?
: We seem to associate Pluto with transformation, and I remember the Edgar
: Cayce readings mentioning Pluto as a force that was developing, or just
: coming to the conscious mind of humans, and that was back in the early part
: of the last century. The particle must be transformed to one with a spin of
: 1 or 0, which means the operator must have a spin of 1/2. If Pluto
: represents the spinor that enables the unification of quantum and classical
: physics, could it also be the thing that represents the unification of the
: soul of man with the Creator?
Very difficult question, I don't know.
I find your identification of "transformation" with "unification"
very interesting. In my knowledge, I heard mainly Uranus to be
related to transformation. Pluto, from what I heard and from my
experience (especially Pluto transiting my natal Pluto+Uranus
at a square during the previous years), is more purging, i.e.
killing, destroying some things to make room for others.
I think there is a collective lack of Sagittarius at the moment,
which will only be fully rebalanced once the children who are
born with Pluto in Sagittarius create more sagittarian things,
driven by the lack of it that they experienced at birth.
I think also the sun is important in unification/transformation.
But maybe it is rather that what is transformed (the self)
than what is transforming. With sun and Uranus, the axis Leo/Aqu
also comes to mind. And there is Mercury (Alchemy), Gemini
(caterpillar transforming into butterfly), and maybe all the
new collective planets that were discovered through technology,
hence children of the Age of Aquarius, i.e. Uranus/Neptune/Pluto
and maybe the smaller ones too.
Alain Stalder
me:
: Pete (me@myname999999.fleaswerve.co.aq):
: : Hi all,
: : in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake that struck the ancient
: : city of Bam in Iran on Boxing Day, at 5.28 am IRT, I wanted to look at
: : the chart for the Capricorn Ingress to see if the were any astrological
: : pointers that would hint at such mass destruction occurring just 4 days
: : later.
: [...]
: : Comments?
:
: Maybe a look at the ingress of Mars into Aries
: or Uranus into Pisces would also be worth a try.
: Or maybe also the moment that Mars was exactly
: semi-square the northern node (1/8 of circle).
Just a general observation relating Iran to Aries:
As far as I know, the root of the word "Iran" is the
same as of "Aries" (and "Arian", "Orion" and also
of my first name "Alain"). Does not help directly
to find out "when/where", but maybe indirectly.
And "what" is maybe related to the earth shaking,
with the view of Aries as the first fire sign
that is made mainly made of earth (wood) and has
to break up some existing structures (earth) to
start something new.
I have lots of quincunxes to the currrent times.
So I don't know if the relaxation between the US
and Iran is only a something temporary, related to
Christmas time, or if it is the beginning of some
relaxation between Islam and "The West", with Iran
being first again, just as it was first with its
fundamentalist revolution. Might also be an Aries
connection in Lybia.
If the earthquake is really part of the astrological
system (and not beyond it), then one would be tempted
to think that the people who died should not have
done so in vain.
Alain
me:
: The numbers 1 to 4 represent the elements in the
: order fire-air-water-earth. The number 5 stands
: for what transforms them into each other. Then
: 6-9 stand for the four possible transitions:
:
: air: fire-air-water = 1+2+3 = 6
: fire: earth-fire-air = 4+1+2 = 7
: earth: fire-earth-water = 1+4+3 = 8
: water: earth-water-air = 4+3+2 = 9
Into this house we're born...
-- Jim Morrison (Riders on the Storm)
Pan-cultural remark:
The I Ching (Chinese book of changes, root of Chinese thinking)
has 64 hexagrams in a well-structured a 8x8 matrix. Laotse's
Tao Te Ching is in 81 parts (9x9). There are the 36 stratagems
of war (6x6). I am not aware of anything 7x7, but my knowledge
is very limited...
Leo (me) is a fire that is torn between striving up but losing
contact to the ground or resting to look down to earth again,
but with limited overview, yet. Hence the insecurity and also
the naivity of the young adult male sign. Heinrich Rohrer, who
won the Nobel Prize for co-inventing the Scanning Tunneling
Microscope, once remarked that the world is not evolving
linearly, so that people usually overestimate what can be done
in 4 years, but underestimate what can change in 10 years.
In Bam, 8 days after the earthquake, a very old woman, more
than 90 years old (97 according to her) was rescued without
a scratch. Saturn was the last planet (7) in antiquity, so
the next planet Uranus would likely get 8. There we have
Uranus (8) into Pisces (last water sign, old woman).
In the numbering 1-sun, 2-moon, 3-venus, 4-mars, 5-mercury,
6-jupiter, 7-saturn, 8-uranus, 9-neptune, 10-pluto, the first
4 would correspond to static elements, Mercury/Hermes would
be about transformation in general, Jupiter would be about
the the transformation of air and related to the stratagems
of war (cf. proposed relation of Jupiter to the US republican
party), Saturn would be related to transformation of fire,
Uranus to transformation of earth, Neptune to transformation
of Water. Pluto would, as Sharyn suggested in another thread,
again be associated with transformation in general, maybe
even with transformation of transformation. But, as I said,
my overview is limited... All I know is that in really vital
situations, going back to the sun sign is always revealing.
I'd like to close with (8) from the Tao Te Ching:
: Generosity is like the Waters. It is a balm to all beings
: and rejects none. It dwells in places shunned by the masses,
: and therefore close to the Spirit. Generosity seeks out
: in dwellings the humble, in thinking depth, in giving love,
: in speaking truth, in ruling justice, in work knowledge in
: all our deeds the proper time. Generosity does not reject
: and therefore will not be rejected.
(source: http://www.nomad.mcmail.com/tao/docs/taote.htm)
Alain Stalder
[Notes: The references between these 4 posts are
slightly circular. Also, I do, of course, refer to
things exposed in previous posts of this series.
To get the full picture and beauty, go to google
and search for posts to this group that contain
the word "Book of Changes" in their title. To make
things a bit easier in the future, I intend to
collect previous posts on my web site.]
Book of Changes - Divisions
The zodiac can be divided by various numbers that
relate to the symbolism of the number.
1 - life, year
2 - create/consolidate (plants in nature)
3 - ages (young/adult/old), subdivided into the four
elements (fire-earth-air-water)
4 - seasons (fire-air-water-earth), subdivided into
characters (cardinal/fixed/mutable)
6 - sex (male/female)
12- signs
Adults are essentially defined by their fertility, the
ability to create offspring, deepening the relation of
the number 3 to fate.
Dry elements come before wet ones. Hence Aries+Taurus
are younger children than Gemini+Cancer, Leo+Virgo are
younger adults than Libra+Scorpio, Sagittarius+Capricorn
are younger old people than Aquarius+Pisces.
Sex is related to 6 and hence to the transformation of
air -- and thus maybe most strongly to Libra (middle,
adult, balancing air sign) -- and to Jupiter.
[about Jupiter: e.g. Zeus and Hera's eternal quarrels,
about who has more fun during sex and similar questions
about the relations between men and women]
Book of Changes - Basic Opposites (2)
All four elements transform from dry via a balance
between dry and wet to wet -- fire and water go from
earth to air, air and earth go from fire to water.
Hence dry/wet corresponds to young/old.
Book of Changes - Aspects and Planets
1 - conjunction/sun
The ideas and goals of the involved planets have to
be fused into a single entity.
2 - opposition/moon
The moon reflects the light of the sun -- reflection
turns 1 into 2. The conscious light of the sun --
the conscious self -- is confronted with unconscious,
maybe more archaic parts of itself, that are often
projected outside while the conflict is maybe rather
an internal one (1-fire is dry, hence external, but
2-air is wet, hence internal).
3 - trine/venus
The goddess of love spreads beauty and harmony and can
thus afford to remain externally passive (3-water is wet,
internal, fine) and let others act to please her.
4 - square/mars
The god of war creates conflict, moves and makes changes
in the outside world (4-earth is dry, external, rough).
5 - quintile/mercury
[golden ratio...]
6 - sextile/jupiter
[opportunity, balance...]
[more to come...]
Book of Changes - Houses (2)
Houses are confined spaces. Of the four elements,
only earth is confined, but air is not, and fire
and water are only little confined. The axes of
AC/DC and MC/IC form a cross, an abstract symbol
for a tree and having 4 arms, thus related to earth.
Hence houses are earthy.
The 4th house cusp (IC) is at the root of the tree,
thus related to Capricorn, because it is the last
phase in the transition fire-earth-water, symbolized
by the roots of a tree that feed it with water and
keep it from falling down.
The 10th house cusp (MC), in turn, represents the
fruits of the tree, and is hence related to Taurus,
the young earth sign, made mainly of fire, symbolizing
the leaves, flowers and fruits that grow with the
energy of the sun (fire). And there is a relation
to the 10th planet, Pluto.
So the axis 4/10 is related to roots (parents and
ancestors) and the fruits (children) emerging from
them and to fate. [to be explored more...]
DJ wrote:
: Alain wrote:
: [...]
: > Of the four elements,
: > only earth is confined, but air is not, and fire
: > and water are only little confined.
: ------
: Maybe I'm thinking too hard, but I don't follow. Do
: the houses confine the elements, or vice versa?
: Confine in what way?
I am looking at it in a different way: A house is made
of solid matter (earth), so it shares some properties
of earth with it: defined borders (confined), stable
(often still there in the same form the next year).
There are certainly other possible associations. For
example: Houses are filled with air, the space between
the walls is the really useful part of a house.
And so on. To be contemplated...
: I've always thought a notable
: difference in each element is how much it is tethered
: by gravity--earth and water lots, air and fire little.
I agree (is also related to high/low, which also make
no sense without gravity).
I wrote:
: DJ wrote:
[...]
: : I've always thought a notable
: : difference in each element is how much it is tethered
: : by gravity--earth and water lots, air and fire little.
:
: I agree (is also related to high/low, which also make
: no sense without gravity).
I can see now analytically why heavy/light is maybe
a specially interesting opposite for the elements:
If you take the 4 elements without what transforms
them into each other (the 5th element), then there
are -- duh! -- 4 elements, hence the four elements
are earthy, which fits -- duh again! -- with the
four elements alone not transforming, hence being
stable (earthy too).
In nature there are four known forces:
- electromagnetism
- weak interaction (mainly in atomic cores)
- strong interaction (mainly in atomic cores)
- gravity
The first three have essentially been unified in
a single quantum field theory, but gravity (thus
the 4th fource) has so far escaped all attempts
to be unified with the other three.
One major complication is that in Einstein's general
theory of relativity, spacetime is curved. This relates
again nicely to what I suggested in my original reply,
namely that houses are also related to space/air (and
also to time, the fourth space-time dimension after
three equivalent spacial dimensions).
It is also interesting that the unified theories of
the first three forces cannot predict the masses of
the elementary particles -- they cannot tell how
heavy/light elementary matter is.
As I said, to be contemplated more...
Re: Book of Changes - Reflection
I wrote:
: Language is a cultural mirror of nature. What is
: close in language, is often also close in nature.
: The meaning of any thing is maybe best understood
: by the structure of all associations to its word.
This simple statement actually sums up what I am
doing almost all the time (say in maybe about 80%
of my public statements related to astrology).
It is something very simple and direct that anybody
can do. Let me try to expose it in clarity here.
The trick is to look for similarities between two
things. Say one thing has the name A, the other the
name B and both have the property P. Take A="fire",
B="sun" and P="hot", for example. Because both an
actual fire and the sun are hot, they are connected.
Thus anything that one knows about the sun is a bit
connected to anything one knows about a fire and
also vice-versa. In other words, the symbolism of
both a fire and the sun is enriched, broadened by
the connection.
Any word is typically connected to many others.
Imagine all the words of the world printed onto a
single piece of paper and then drawing lines that
connect all of them. You could get from sun to fire
in different paths, like sun-hot-fire, or also
sun-bright-fire, and also take less direct paths,
like maybe sun-nuclear fusion-fusion-heat-fire, etc.
Some connections will only exist in one language
and not in others. In english there is a connection
Aries-arise, the german word for Aries (Widder) is
connected to resistance (wider). Of course you can
also do Aries-Widder-wider-resistance, but then the
path is longer in english than in german.
In principle all these connections can be mapped to
a single, very large matrix. On both rows and lines
you write all words that exist and put an "x" when
there is a connection:
Aardvark ... fire ... hot ... sun ... Zygote
Aardvark x
Aaron
aback
....
fire x x
....
hot x x x
....
sun x x
....
Zulu
Zygote x
xFrom a philosophical point of view, the hidden link
between things and names (how do you define a house
without referring to other words ?) is an arbitrary
decision. One could split things differently and/or
chose different words for the world and would get
another matrix. There are also personal differences
(which Milan Kundera calles poetic memory): The first
contact with a word in life creates often a strong
link. For some children all small animals are first
"dogs", probably since the first small animal they
saw was a dog, and not a cat or a more exotic animal.
This matrix view of the world is, for all I can see,
essentially Sagittarian. I cannot fully derive this
from first principles (my elementary model of the
transformations between elements for star signs) yet,
so the story how Quantum Mechanics was discovered
will have to do for the moment:
Erwin Schrodinger (Leo) and Werner Heisenberg (Sag)
discovered the basic law of (non-relativistic)
Quantum Mechanics independently of each other.
Schrodinger found a differential equation, while
Heisenberg devised a scheme of matrix transformations.
Somebody later found out (I don't remember who, might
even have been Schrodinger) that the two approaches
are mathematically completely equivalent, they can
be transformed into each other.
Now, in the "Schrodinger Picture", the state of the
world evolves with time, but the operators, the way
of looking at the world, changes with time. In the
"Heisenberg Picture" things are the other way round,
the world is always the same, but the operators do
change with time, i.e. the preception of the world
changes with time, but not the world itself. There
is also a third way now, called "Interaction Picture"
in which both states and operators change with time.
That is likely related to the sign in the middle
at sextiles between Leo and Sagittarius, Libra,
balancing the two pictures.
Back to Leo-Sagittarius: Leo is typically looking
for a special point of view that is useful from a
practical point of view. That is also connected to
Leo having to balance earth and air as the middle
fire sign. Any point of view (air) has to be useful
(earth) for everybody, has to take some everyday
needs into consideration. A good example of a special
point of view is astronomy: Seen from the earth, the
planets move apparently in complex ways, most of them
forth and back, but seen from the sun, everything
moves in mostly almost circular elliptical orbits.
Sagittarius is the last fire sign, hence mainly made
of air, the connection to earth is lost, revealing that
with broad overview many points of view (possible maps
between real objects and words) are good in some sense
(there also different criteria are possible). Thus in
the end, you arrive at what Ray Murphy (Sagittarius,
if I am not mistaken) said specifically with regard to
astrology, namely that all points of view are equivalent.
This is very probably true in the end, but it is also
not always the most useful insight for concrete needs
in everyday life. But that may already be biased again
by me (sun in Leo).
Anyway, to wrap things up: What I am doing most of the
time is actually quite simple. In many statements by me,
one could in principle start by trying to identify the
two things A and B and the property P that connects them.
I am only cooking with water, but repeatedly. Physics
is similar, it applies simple logic over and over again
to construct complext mathematical theories.
In that sense, what I just wrote about was what one
might call "associative science" or exact philosophy,
if you prefer. Finally, I would like to remind that
I first stated the principle in hypothesis H19 in
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
[It's snowing again. Astonishingly, my best ideas
come almost always in that romantic situation. See
below and next post about the I Ching...]
Book of Changes - Signs by Elements - Basic Opposites
The female elements are heavier than the male ones,
thus hot/cold corresponds to light/heavy.
The elements can also be opposed in another pair,
air+earth/fire+water, corresponding (obviously) to
rest/move, but also describing an independent and
additional property of anything that can be touched
-- the ability to rest or move -- also since both
sides contain dry+wet+hot+cold, thus are complete.
This is beautifully reflected in the I Ching, where
all elements appear both in resting and moving form:
fire: fire - thunder (lightning)
air: heaven - wind/wood (blow/grow)
water: lake - water (flowing river)
earth: mountain - earth (yielding)
[details see next post...]
Book of Changes - Signs by Elements - I Ching
The 64 hexagrams of the I Ching are composed
of yin and yang lines -- ':' and 'I' -- the
broken yin line is female, the unbroken yang
line is male.
The four seasons are assigned as follows (left
corresponds to up in usual horizontal notation):
:I spring
II summer
I: autumn
:: earth
This corresponds to the assignment spring-fire,
summer-air, autumn-water, earth-winter if the
first line is identified with dry/wet (yin=dry)
and the second line with hot/cold (yin=cold).
The four elements come in both yin and yang forms,
resting and moving:
I:I fire, light-giving, 2nd daughter -- resting fire
::I thunder, inciting/movement, 1st son -- moving fire
III heaven, strong, father -- resting air
II: wind/wood, penetrating, 1st daughter -- moving air
:II lake/mist, joyful, 3rd daughter -- resting water
:I: water, dangerous, 2nd son -- moving water
I:: mountain, resting, 3rd son -- resting earth
::: earth, devoted/yielding, mother -- moving earth
Removing the differing line in each pair (move=yin)
yields again the above relation between seasons and
elements (only almost: ':I' emerges twice, for fire
and water, only if the order of lines is switched
for water to 'I:' is the fit perfect).
The hexagrams let the 8 elements meet in 64 ways,
with one above and one below. [These meetings could
now be explored analytically, to shed light on the
I Ching and back on the four elements in Western
astrology and philosophy...]
[Some links related to the structure of the I Ching:
http://www.iging.com (see intro by Richard Wilhelm)
http://www.yijing.co.uk (intro to I Ching by Andreas
Schoeter, see first pdf in papers section)]
Chris Mitchell:
: On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 01:43:33 CST, pgdunne@yahoo.com (pg) wrote:
:
: >I'm looking for a good software program which produces a noon
: >ephemeris with the following features --
: >1. Longitude, Latitude, Right Ascension, and Declination of the Sun,
: >Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto
: >and Moon's Node.
: >2. Ability to output the above data to a text file (not an image
: >file). I need a text file so that I can read the data into a program
: >that I plan to write (for non-commercial purposes).
: >Thanks in advance.
: >pg
:
: Astrolog, which is free, will do that with a bit of fiddling around -
: I'd suggest subscribing to the Yahoo! group Astrolog_List and asking
: for details there.
:
: Alternatively, if you're a programmer, you can call the Swiss
: Ephemeris to do exactly that - and use of the SE is free if it's for
: non-commercial purposes. It's fully documented at www.astro.com and if
: you're developing on a Windows platform, there's a DLL that you can
: use that does everything you want. I've written a VB for MS Access
: application that does the planetary positions (ecliptic longitude
: only, but SE does return declination - and converting to/from
: equatorial coordinates is simple). E-mail me (remove the spam trap) if
: you'd like details.
I would use the command line test program "swetest" that comes
with Swiss Ephemeris to generate the lists.
Main link (including license information):
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephinfo_e.htm
Program "swetest" compiled for Windows:
ftp://ftp.astro.com/pub/swisseph/programs/swetest.exe
(for other operating systems: download+compile the source)
Description of the parameters:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/swetest.cgi?arg=-h&p=0
Web access to swetest:
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm
Hallo allerseits,
Ich glaube folgender Link wird viele Astrologen -- sowohl
Profis wie Hobbyastrologen und Anfänger -- interessieren:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/index_d.html
Siehe weiter unten in diesem Newsartikel für den Beginn
des Textes dort, um eine Idee des Inhalts zu bekommen.
Auf Englisch ist am obigen Link noch mehr vorhanden;
sobald ich wesentlich mehr auf Deutsch übersetzt habe,
werde ich das hier anbringen.
Viele Grüsse
Alain StaIder
--
Willkommen zu meinem "Buch der Wandlungen"
Dieses Buch präsentiert eine neue Sicht auf die Westliche
tropische Astrologie, eine einfache und analytische
Sichtweise. Es verbindet zurück zu den philosophischen
Sichten des antiken Griechenlands und des antiken China,
welche sehr konkret waren -- da sie über Dinge wie Flüsse,
Bäume, Wolken, Berge, usw. sprachen -- aber gleichzeitig
auch sehr abstrakt waren -- sie teilten die Welt in warm/kalt,
trocken/feucht, hell/dunkel, Yin/Yang, usw.
Obwohl dieser Text nicht direkt für Anfänger gedacht ist,
kann er nützlich sein für einen Einblick in die Haupt-
eigenschaften der zwölf Sternzeichen, falls er zusammen
mit einem anderen einführenden Text (oder Texten) gelesen
wird. Aber, trotz seiner Einfachheit, ist der Zugang, der
hier präsentiert wird, auch inhaltlich erstaunlich reich
und tief, was ihn zu einem schönen Werkzeug macht für
professionelle Astrologen, um viele Dinge aus einem neuen,
strukturierteren Blickwinkel zu erkunden.
Schliesslich macht die einfache Struktur des neuen Zugangs
ihn auch geeignet ist für formale und quantitative
wissenschaftliche Überprüfungen der Astrologie.
Dieses Buch ist im Moment am Entstehen durch Posts zur
Newsgroup alt.astrology.tropical, um danach jeweils hier
eingefügt zu werden (und auf Deutsch übersetzt). Falls
Sie neu in der Astrologie sind, sind vielleicht auch die
Links am Ende dieser Seite hilfreich.
Das Folgende ist vielleicht nicht am Besten zugänglich
durch den Versuch, die Dinge zu schnell zu ergreifen,
sondern eher durch Loslassen, sich Vorstellen der Bäume,
Berge, Feuer, Häuser, usw. und die Dinge im Geist wachsen
lassen -- sehr im Stil des Tao Te King...
Buch der Wandlungen
Hallo allerseits,
Mit diesem Artikel, möchte ich ein Buch zu schreiben beginnen.
Erste konkrete Artikel werden meine Sicht der Sternzeichen
als Wandlungen zwischen Elementen beschreiben, konkret zuerst
Widder als ein Feuer, das zu brennen beginnt.
Diese Sicht basiert auf Aristoteles' Sicht der Welt als
zusammengesetzt aus zwei Gegensatzpaaren -- warm/kalt und
trocken/feucht -- die sich auf vier Arten zusammensetzen
lassen -- Feuer/Luft/Wasser/Erde und ineinander umgewandelt
werden können. Dies ist auch sehr ähnlich wie im "I Ging",
dem Chinesischen Buch der Wandlungen, wo sich 8 "Elemente"
ineinander wandeln.
Weitere Kapitel werden folgen, z.B. vielleicht "Häuser
durch Nummern", "Knoten als Tore" oder Andere.
AlaintStalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zürich 03:12 UTC
That whereby the rivers and seas are able to receive the homage
and tribute of all the valley streams, is their skill in being
lower than they -- it is thus that they are the kings of them
all. So it is that the sage, wishing to be above men, puts
himself by his words below them, and wishing to be before them,
places his person behind them. In this way though he has his
place above them, men do not feel his weight, nor though he has
his place before them, do they feel it an injury to them.
Therefore all in the world delight to exalt him and do not weary
of him. Because he does not strive, no one finds it possible
to strive with him. -- Tao Te Ching
Zeichen durch Elemente
Die vier Elemente gehen in einem Kreis. Feuer geht hoch
von der Erde in die Luft -- dies ist auch Frühling.
Luft ist die Wolke, die in der Luft balanciert, die
Wasser vom Meer erhält und es als Regen wieder runter
lässt, die Blitze aufnimmt und aussendet (Feuer), vom
und zum Boden (Erde) -- Sommer. Wasser fällt und fliesst
herunter als Regen und Flüsse zur Erde und in das Meer
-- Herbst. Die Erde verweilt meist ruhig -- Winter --
lässt kontinuierlich Wasser in den Bergen los und
erzeugt plötzlich Feuer aus Vulkanen und brennenden
Pflanzen.
Abstrakt wird Feuer, das Aristoteles als trocken und
heiss sah, feucht (Luft), dann kalt (Wasser), wieder
trocken (Erde) und endlich wieder heiss (Feuer).
Aristoteles hatte die Jahreszeiten in anderer Reihenfolge
als ich zugeordnet, aber mein Zugang als Physiker ist
wieder auf direkte Beobachtung von Leuten und der Natur
zurückzukommen, und so das zu finden, was am Besten passt,
dabei hoffentlich auch profitierend von den Einsichten,
die die Welt seither gewonnen hat -- auch durch Leiden
-- während den letzten 2000 Jahren im Fischezeitalter.
Jedes der drei Sternzeichen zu jedem Element ist eine
Phase in einem Übergang -- jung zu erwachsen zu alt.
Ein Feuer beginnt Holz (Erde, Widder) zu verbrennen,
dann verwandelt es stetig Holz in Rauch (Luft, Löwe)
und endet sein Leben meist als Rauch und Vorstellung
(Schütze).
Luft ist eine Wolke, die erst viele Blitze aussendet
(Feuer, Zwillinge), dann kommt der Regen (Gleichgewicht
von Feuer und Wasser, Waage), und schliesslich fällt nur
noch Regen gleichmässig verteilt über Jeden (Wassermann).
Wasser ist erst eine Quelle, die in den Bergen entspringt
(Erde, Krebs), mischt sich dann mit anderen Wassern zu
einem Strom (Skorpion) und fliesst schliesslich ins Meer,
von wo es wieder verdampft (Luft, Fische).
Erde ist ein Baum, der schöne Blüten in der Sonne hat
(Feuer, Stier), aber auch Wasser von unten benötigt,
die ihn durch seine Wurzeln ernähren, die ihn auch am
Umfallen hindern (Wasser, Steinbock), beides auszugleichen
durch das mittlere, erwachsene Erdzeichen -- Jungfrau.
Grundgegensätze
Bevor ich die Elemente beschreibe, ist ein Wörterbuch der
Grundgegensätze notwendig.
Heiss/kalt entspricht Tag/Nacht, weil es tagsüber wärmer ist
als nachts. Tag/Nacht entspricht hell/dunkel (offensichtlich),
aktiv/passiv und bewusst/unbewusst, weil Leute tagsüber wach
sind und nachts schlafen. Die heissen Elemente steigen (Feuer)
oder sind oben (Luft), die Kalten fliessen entweder runter
(Wasser) oder sind unten (Erde).
Männer waren traditionell "oben" beim Sex, und aktiver --
für den Teil des Sex, der für die Fortpflanzung notwendig ist,
ist Letzteres sogar natürlicherweise so. Daher entspricht
heiss/kalt männlich/weiblich.
Trocken/feucht entspricht hart/weich, brüchig/biegsam,
fein/grob. Das Innere von vielen Dingen ist feuchter als
das Äussere, also entspricht trocken/feucht aussen/innen.
Dies hat tiefergreifende Konsequenzen, für später.
Vor der Geburt ist die Welt feucht, weich und warm. Daher
ist die Erfahrung der Gegensätze warm/kalt und trocken/feucht
(=weich/hart=aussen/innen) eine der ersten Erfahrungen, die
ein neugeborenes Kind macht. Dies kann sicher ein elementares
Erlebnis genannt werden -- gemäss Aristoteles sind Elemente,
was sich berühren lässt.
Luft
Eine Wolke schwebt oben in der Luft, aber Luft ist männlich,
also aktiv: Die Wolke muss also konstant kommunizieren, sie
erhält Wasser von Unten durch die Kraft der Sonne (Feuer)
und regnet Wasser runter. Blitze gehen von einem Pol zum
Anderen, entweder runter von der Wolke, rauf zu ihr oder
innerhalb von ihr. In jedem Fall gleichen Blitze
elektrische Ladung wieder aus.
Eine Wolke übersieht die Erde unter ihr wie kein anderes
Element -- Luft hat eine objektive Sicht der Realität.
Aber eine Sache, die Luft kaum sehen kann, ist sie selbst
(Luft ist unsichtbar). Reine Logik (Mathematik) kann nicht
durch Logik alleine (d.h. mathematisch) als widerspruchsfrei
bewiesen werden. In jeder logischen Konstruktion von
nicht-trivialer Grösse, gibt es Aussagen, die entweder
wahr oder falsch sein können, sich aber innerhalb des
Systems nicht entscheiden lassen.
Luft kann Information kommunizieren und speichern wie kein
anderes Element, aber sie kann sie nicht ersetzen. "750nm
Wellenlänge" ist nicht dasselbe wie die Erfahrung der
Farbe "rot". Eine Theorie von Allem wäre dennoch nicht
dasselbe wie alles, und es wäre nicht beweisbar, dass die
Theorie vollständig und frei von Widersprüchen wäre.
(Dieser Text hier ist auch exponiert in dieser Hinsicht
-- schliesslich versucht er alle vier Elemente durch
Worte zu beschreiben).
Hier ist also Kommunikation, Balance, Übersicht,
Objektivität -- aber auch Probleme mit Subjektivität
(Selbstbezug) -- aus einem simplen Bild (einer Wolke),
das Jeder und Jede in der Vorstellung aus den paar
Worten, die in diesen Text kommuniziert wurden,
erzeugen kann.
Widder
Jede Beschreibung eines Sternzeichens ist unvollständig.
Ich hoffe, jedoch, dass ich einen Teil des Reichtums
vermitteln kann, der im elementaren Zugang liegt und
der -- mit etwas Übung -- für Jeden und Jede gut
erreichbar ist.
Widder ist ein junges Feuer, eines, das gerade zu brennen
begonnen hat und um das Wachsen kämpft. Es hat viel Holz
(Erde), das noch in Rauch (Luft) umgewandelt werden wird.
Trotzdem sollte die Bedeutung der Luft im Widder (engl.
"Aries", ausgesprochen "Air"-ies, "Air" = Luft) nicht
unterschätzt werden -- Feuer benötigt sowohl festes
Material als auch Luft zum Brennen.
Zuerst Erde. Ein neugeborenes Kind hat einen Körper
(Erde), aber noch kein Wissen (Luft). Ein Kind
argumentiert basierend auf unmittelbarer Realität
-- "Ich bin hungrig", "Ich habe kalt", ignoriert
dabei grössere Zusammenhänge. Doch der Drang ist
nach oben in die Luft, zu mehr Wissen und Können.
Luft liefert einen sanfteren Blickwinkel. Man muss
stark blasen um Glut in eine Flamme zu verwandeln.
Sobald es eine kleine Flamme hat, muss man sie vor
zu viel Wind schützen und sie sanft zu mehr Holz
führen, damit sie wachsen kann.
Anders als für die älteren Feuerzeichen, Löwe und
Schütze, verursacht die Wunde, die durch den Brand
und so durch das verschwindende Holz (Erde, Körper)
entsteht noch keine grossen Schmerzen, nur vielleicht
der Impuls zu handeln.
So gibt es einen Kampf zu höheren Zielen, Einsichten
und Wissen (Luft) und einen Drang, die Schwächeren zu
schützen.
Widder-Fische
Ein Blick auf die Quelle der Sanftheit der Luft,
die die junge Flamme des Widders leitet...
Fische, das alte Wasserzeichen, ist der Ozean, der alle
Ströme und Flüsse der Welt enthält, die in ihn gemündet
haben. Daher enthält er das Wissen aller individueller
Schicksalsfäden. Fische sind auch die dritte Phase des
Wassers (Eis-Wasser-Dampf), deshalb, durch Verdampfen,
wird vieles klarer (Dampf ist unsichtbar) und erweitert
das Wissen über die menschliche Natur.
Es ist diese Luft, die die junge Flamme des Widders
erzeugt, treibt und zu neuen Orten führt, wo Neues
erzeugt werden muss. Daher ist wohin der Widder strebt,
auch wenn er typischerweise aufgrund unmittelbarer Realität
(Erde) argumentiert, eine subtilere Sache, derer er sich
typischerweise nicht bewusst ist -- wie könnte er auch,
er ist noch weit entfernt davon, die Komplexität der
Natur zu verstehen, fast ein Jahr entfernt.
In article <astalder-8BD8E6.11492131012004@news.bluewin.ch>,
Alain StaIder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/index_d.html
Sorry, hier ist der richtige Link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/index_d.html
Im Jahr 2002 hatte die grösste Supermarktkette der Schweiz
Toilettenpapier mit den Sternzeichen im Angebot. Soweit
ich weiss, beschwerten sich darüber keine Astrologen,
sondern (nicht unverständlicherweise) Moslems, weil das
Arabische Wort für Allah auf dem Kopf wie das Symbol für
die Jungfrau aussieht. Das Toilettenpapier wurde aus dem
Markt zurückgezogen.
Quaoar/Jungfrau als Schlüssel zum Aufbau der Welt... ;)
(Wie im Smiley ";)" sichtbar, sowohl mit einem Auge
ernst gemeint, wie mit dem Anderen auch nicht...)
Juergen Mischke:
: Die Kloschüssel als Sch(l)üssel zum Aufbau der Welt
[I have arranged the posts so far at my web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book
(and translated partially to German and put up a
few links, including to aat-home.net). Thanks for
the opportunity to post here -- I am still amazed
how easily things emerge in posts that I make here;
really seems to be a difference between Pluto at
any time and the fate of something that was created
with Pluto at the same place, namely destruction/
purging vs. growth... I have to put considerably
less effort into posting here than writing for any
other place and errors almost correct themselves
automatically... Thanks a million everybody!...]
Book of Changes - Divisions (2)
A day can also be divided into parts:
2 - create/consolidate (day/night)
4 - morning-afternoon-evening-night and thus
sunrise-noon-sunset-midnight (AC-MC-DC-IC)
Book of Changes - Houses (3)
MC and IC rest (air and earth), AC and DC move
(fire and water). Thus the axis MC/IC is about
what is essentially preserved from previous
generations (actively for the MC and passively
for the IC), the axis AC/DC is what can be
changed by the individual (actively for the AC
and passively for the DC).
The idea is to connect the fundamental property of
the elements to move or rest with polititcal parties:
- earth and air rest, are thus conservative, leave
things either the way they are (earth) or actively
keep things the way they were (air)
- fire and water move, are thus progressive, let
things either change if they want (water) or else
make things actively move (fire)
That gives the following connections:
conservative
- rest
- earth+air = 4+2 = 6
- Jupiter
- Sextile (opportunity, luck)
- transformation of air (overview, opportunity)
progressive
- move
- fire+water = 1+3 = 4
- Mars
- Square (movement in external (dry) world)
- element earth
I am aware that in the USA, with its AC probably in
Sagittarius and with a retrograde Mercury, probably
both parties carry both sides of any possible
opposite in themselves (say maybe act differently than
they speak, either knowingly or unknowingly, etc.),
but I think the above fits quite a bit with these:
- defending old values / adoption of new ideas
(at least related to social issues like race or sexual
orientation, or also to where high tech is mainly
applied (military use to protect and preserve the
status quo inside the country vs. civilian use to
give people some fruits of progress directly))
- balancing budget
- abortion (moment of conception/birth starts a life)
- act from overview or driven by realities and needs
(Just in case: Of course, I find it impossible to say that
one side is generally better than the other; some good
things that worked in the past should be preserved, some
others need to be changed, depends on what people decide.)
Laimhard Laimbacher:
: Hallo Alain
:
: Du hast ja Grosses vor.
: Grundsätzlich finde ich es sehr sinnvoll und inspirierend, das Wesen
: der Astrologie mit möglichst einfachen Denkmodulen anzugehen.
Danke!
: Da du dich selbst als Nichtprofi bezeichnest: woher die Motivation?
Das war Schicksal, Liebe. Ich hatte mich 1982 in jemanden verliebt,
die sich für Astrologie interessierte.
: Denkst du, dass Physik und Astrologie sich sinnvoll ergänzen können?
:
: Gruss
: Laimi
Ja, sicher. Die beiden haben sich ja auch erst vor etwa 300 Jahren
wirklich getrennt, so dass jetzt v.a. Männer Physik machen und v.a.
Frauen Astrologie. Wenn man Männer und Frauen zusammenbringt, ist
das immer interessant, und es entsteht oft Neues (ein Kind), etwas
mit Hand und Fuss, das Teile von beiden Eltern in sich trägt.
DJ:
: > - earth and air rest, are thus conservative, leave
: > things either the way they are (earth) or actively
: > keep things the way they were (air)
: >
: > - fire and water move, are thus progressive, let
: > things either change if they want (water) or else
: > make things actively move (fire)
: ------
: Will you please elaborate on this a bit? I'm not quite
: following the reasoning. I'd group earth and water
: together--earth doesn't move in general, and water not
: without encouragement (temperature has to be above
: freezing, area must be not level). Fire and air seem
: to me to be in pretty much constant motion, fire more
: so than air.
I am trying to make a distinction between active/passive
and rest/move. The main picture I have in mind is the
cycle of the elements during a year.
One way to look at it, is plant growth:
In winter nature rests, plants don't grow. So in winter
plants are passive (female, cold) and rest.
In spring plants start growing up again. So in spring
plants move and they move up (male, hot).
In summer many plants invest probably most energy into
growing fruit; there is activity but less growth up.
So in summer plants are active and up (male, hot), but
don't move much either up or down.
In autumn many plants let their fruits and leaves drop
down to the ground. So in autumn plants are passive
(female, cold) and things move down.
winter: passive, rest (earth)
spring: active, move (fire)
summer: active, rest (air)
autumn: passive, move (water)
I am also thinking of a river for water (flows down,
i.e. moves passively) and of a cloud (to remain the
same size, there must be an active balance between
rain and absorbing more evaporated water).
I am aware that water can also rest (a lake, for example)
or that air can move too (wind, for example). In the
Chinese Book of Changes, the I Ching, all four elements
seemingly appear both in moving and resting forms (water
in form of a river (abyss) and of a lake, air in form of
the sky and of wind, etc.). It seems however, that in
ancient Greek reasoning each element is most strongly
associated with only either rest or move. So there seems
to be generally a less strong association from water to
a lake than to a river in western thinking, including in
western astrology. (Also because of the transformation
between the three water signs; source-river-sea, that can
be seen as start, middle and end of the life of a river).
So, essentially I think that Greek thinking has a bit
a more biased approach to the elements than the I Ching,
which is thus maybe more natural and universal.
Maybe you know the books by the Australian couple Allan
and Barbara Pease, who describe differences between men
and women in many interesting ways, also backed by some
scientific data about what each sex can do better or
less well. One example was roughly a woman and a man
returning from shopping and the woman saying maybe
"today everybody was nervous" and then the man replying
"no, not everybody was nervous". Women tend to think more
in associations than men do (on average). That is also
the way that the associations between elements and things
in nature should be seen. If I make the association from
water to a river in western astrology, it is not strictly,
logically the only possible association, a lake works too,
but apparently not so well. It is all about adding together
the possible associations and then chosing what appears to
fit best. Finding a counterexample cannot prove associative
conclusions wrong, only a different way of associating
things can, if it fits better. Associative thinking has
to live with logical contradictions to some degree.
Larry Swain:
: Anybody have John Kerry's birth data? I've checked all the sites I
: know of incl. a Google search and only came up with his birth date,
: Dec. 11th, 1943.
Appears that his birth time is only approximately known:
: Chart 1: John Forbes Kerry, December 11, 1943; 7:10 a.m. MWT;
: Denver, CO (39°N44', 104°W59'); A: Francis McEvoy quotes his
: mother for "sunrise."
Source: http://www.mountainastrologer.com/planettracks/tracks.html
(I googled for <Kerry 1943 sagittarius>; there were more links
that appeared to use the same birth time, maybe some of them
have more information about the reliability of the birth time).
Linda:
: > I am aware that water can also rest (a lake, for example)
: > or that air can move too (wind, for example).
:
: In that case, you could swap those two round. This would make more sense,
: in a way, because they would then correspond with the elements of the
: seasonal ingresses which occur in Capricorn (earth), Aries (fire), Cancer
: (water) and Libra (air), as follows:
:
: winter: passive, rest (earth)
: spring: active, move (fire)
: summer: active, rest (water)
: autumn: passive, move (air)
:
: Thus water is active as a river (also tides, waterfalls, rapids) and rests
: as a lake; air is passive, but moves as wind - as you state above. In this
: way we get the links of air & fire (moving) and earth & water (resting), as
: DJ suggested. The link you suggested becomes earth & air (passive) and fire
: & water (active), which could fit your plant growth example, seen in a
: slightly different way as autumn/winter passive and spring/summer active.
:
: I realise this probably messes up the distinction you were trying to make
: between active/passive and rest/move. Just an alternative way of looking at
: it I suppose :)
Let me simply add another one :)
Aristotle assigned elements to seasons as follows:
spring - air
summer - fire
autumn - earth
winter - water
Air is hot and wet, gets dry (fire), then cold (earth),
then wet (water) and finally hot again (air). It seems
a bit like winters were quite watery when/where Aristotle
lived, also because the symbols assigned to the winter
signs are quite watery:
Capricorn - goat-fisch
Aquarius - water bearer
Pisces - fish
If I try to link this to the seasons in Chinese thought,
:: winter, :I spring, II summer, I: autumn, then in the
first line yin (':') means wet, in the second line yin
means cold. That is an interesting fit, because it seems
that the archetypal picture for yin/yang is a hill, or,
more precisely, its dark (yin) and bright (yang) sides.
The dark side of a hill is usually colder and wetter
than the sunny side...
I still see more associations with "my" order of elements
than with Aristotle's order, because in my model, :: earth
fits with ::: earth/mother and II air fits with III
sky/father etc. (see recent post here or my collection at:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ , section "I Ching");
I consider the direct, pan-cultural link between the four
western elements and the 8 trigrams of the I Ching way too
interesting to discard it quickly.
At some point I hope to be able to use exact mathematical
methods to compare the different views and weigh their
relative importance, as far as this is possible or useful.
There are 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 24 ways to assign elements to
seasons, so far I really only considered two with some
depth. That is clearly not enough for an objective
conclusion. At the moment, I am rather playfully exploring
a few paths that feel or seem interesting, I am not yet
scanning the whole space of possiblities systematically.
I cannot feel much with the concrete suggestion you made,
yet. What I can say for sure, is that the assignment of
passive to earth+air and active to water+fire does not
fit with Aristotle's view of the elements made of the
opposites dry/wet and hot/cold, if one indentifies -- as
I do in my reasoning -- hot/cold with active/passive.
But that is, of course, only an argument based on choices
that *I* made, not a general statement. There are certainly
again different ways of looking at things in that respect,
of which some might lead to interesting places...
Venus soon into Aries...
Alain
me (in Divisions (2):
: A day can also be divided into parts:
: 4 - morning-afternoon-evening-night and thus
: sunrise-noon-sunset-midnight (AC-MC-DC-IC)
me:
: MC and IC rest (air and earth), AC and DC move
: (fire and water). Thus the axis MC/IC is about
: what is essentially preserved from previous
: generations (actively for the MC and passively
: for the IC), the axis AC/DC is what can be
: changed by the individual (actively for the AC
: and passively for the DC).
A common association with AC and MC is eye-to-eye
appearance resp. public appearance.
It appears that frogs detect their prey in essentially
a very simple way: They compare two pictures in their
mind -- if a spot of maybe the size of a fly is at a
different place between the pictures, they try to get
that spot. Other animals need a complex spacial model
of the world in their mind, they need to interpret the
pictures they get from each eye and construct a model
in their minds.
That is probably the reason why somebody's AC is so
quickly recognized by many people. It is a property
that changes quickly for every person, it moves. If
you meet somebody for the first time, you just watch
and look at what changes quickly; that would be the
AC then, connected clearly to 1-fire (also because
the AC is where the sun rises).
Public appearance can also be visual to some degree,
a speech before many people or a life concert (at
least before TV). But in any case, what really makes
you known broadly, is the words and music that are
passed on (communicated) from person to person and
in books or newspapers. So there is communication,
words and music -- the MC is connected to 2-air.
The other two (female) points DC and IC are maybe a
bit more difficult to understand and describe. Let
me try another time...
Book of Changes - Planets and Family
Different planets affect how one behaves towards
or as a family member:
1-sun-father
2-moon-mother
3-Venus-woman
4-Mars-man
5-Mercury-syblings/rivals
6-Jupiter-grandfather
7-Saturn-grandmother
Sun and moon bridge a generation, but also apply
to male/female superiors at work or to teachers.
Venus and Mars apply to the same generation, to
male/female friends and lovers; Mercury too, but
only when two people desire the same person(s) or
the same thing(s) -- that can be a parent of two
syblings, a woman that two men love or a job that
two people want, etc.
Jupiter and Saturn bridge two generations. There
is a special link between grandmother/grandchild
and between grandfather/grandchild, because they
see their daughter/mother resp. son/father in a
similar way, namely their moon resp. sun sign.
[Please feel free to compare the above associations with your
personal experience of your own family and friends (say, "do
I act towards my father like my sun sign ?", "do I act towards
my brother like my Mercury sign ?", "did my behaviour towards
my best friend change from Mars sign to Mercury sign when we
fell in love with the same woman ?". I am aware that families
and friendships are delicate matters with their own secrets
that are sometimes mutually (maybe unconsciously) kept in the
dark for the sake of stability. So please feel also free not
to consider these things too much...]
[Next posts will be mainly about signs by elements, but
likely there will be some delay until maybe spring...]
me:
: Different planets affect how one behaves towards
: or as a family member:
:
: 1-sun-father
: 2-moon-mother
: 3-Venus-woman
: 4-Mars-man
: 5-Mercury-syblings/rivals
: 6-Jupiter-grandfather
: 7-Saturn-grandmother
:
: Sun and moon bridge a generation, but also apply
: to male/female superiors at work or to teachers.
: Venus and Mars apply to the same generation, to
: male/female friends and lovers; Mercury too, but
: only when two people desire the same person(s) or
: the same thing(s) -- that can be a parent of two
: syblings, a woman that two men love or a job that
: two people want, etc.
:
: Jupiter and Saturn bridge two generations. There
: is a special link between grandmother/grandchild
: and between grandfather/grandchild, because they
: see their daughter/mother resp. son/father in a
: similar way, namely their moon resp. sun sign.
Let me state the idea a bit more explicitly:
father towards sons+daughters: sun sign of father
sons+daughters towards father: sun sign of respective son/daughter
mother towards sons+daughters: moon sign of mother
sons+daughters towards mother: moon sign of respective son/daughter
male boss towards male+female employes: sun sign of boss
male+female employes towards male boss: sun sign of respective employe
female boss towards male+female employes: moon sign of boss
male+female employes towards female boss: moon sign of respective employe
male teacher towards male+female scholars: sun sign of teacher
male+female scholars towards male teacher: sun sign of respective scholar
female teacher towards male+female scholars: moon sign of teacher
male+female scholars towards female teacher: moon sign of respecite scholar
man towards female friends+lovers: Venus sign of man
female friends+lovers towards man: Mars sign of respective friend or lover
woman towards male friends+lovers: Mars sign of woman
male friends+lovers towards woman: Venus sign of respective friend or lover
man towards male friends+lovers: Mars sign of man
male friends+lovers towards man: Mars sign of respective friend or lover
woman towards female friends+lovers: Venus sign of woman
female friends+lovers towards woman: Venus sign of respective friend or lover
man towards male+female syblings: Mercury sign of man
male+female syblings towards man: Mercury sign of respective sybling
woman towards male+female syblings: Mercury sign of woman
male+female syblings towards woman: Mercury sign of respective sybling
man towards male+female rivals: Mercury sign of man
male+female rivals towards man: Mercury sign of respective rival
woman towards male+female rivals: Mercury sign of woman
male+female rivals towards woman: Mercury sign of respective rival
grandfather towards male+female grandchildren: Jupiter sign of g-father
male+female g-children towards g-father: Jupiter sign of respective g-child
grandmother towards male+female grandchildren: Saturn sign of g-mother
male+female g-children towards g-mother: Saturn sign of respective g-child
A few examples:
Frank and Bob are friends. Frank behaves like his Mars sign towards Bob
and Bob behaves like his Mars sign towards Frank. They work at the same
place in the same group and at one point both want to become the boss
of that group. That changes their behaviour (at least whenever the goal
of becoming boss is relevant) to Mercury signs insteads of Mars signs:
Frank behaves like his Mercury sign towards Bob and Bob behaves like his
Mercury sign towards Frank. Say, Frank finally gets the job as the boss
of Bob. Now, in all matters in which Frank operates as the boss of Bob,
he behaves like his sun sign towards Bob and Bob behaves like his sun
sign towards Frank.
Louise is the grandmother of Lisa and the mother of Marge. Louise
behaves like her Saturn sign towards Lisa and Lisa behaves like her
Saturn sign towards Louise. Marge behaves like her moon sign towards
Louise and also like her moon sign towards Lisa. In other words, both
Louise and Lisa experience Marge, their daughter resp. mother, in the
same way. This creates a link between them, because they share a
mutual "issue".
A few more examples from the Simpsons:
- Homer towards Bart: Homer's sun sign
- Bart towards Marge: Bart's moon sign
- Bart towards Lisa: Bart's Mercury sign
- Bart towards Skinner: Bart's sun sign
- ...
I am, of course, aware that there are more factors that influence the
way people behave towards each other. Astrologically there is certainly
aspects in synastry that are important. Also the positions of the signs
that I mentioned change in time. If Mars is currently in Taurus, then
men and women will have a tendency to behave more taurean than usual
towards their male friends and/or lovers, etc.
Also, my thesis depends on what exactly one associates with the signs
(and also with houses, where it probably would apply too). Of course,
personally, I try to apply it to my simple model of the signs by
elements, which I think is quite compatible with most people's views
of the individual signs, unless maybe for sideral astrologers.
Anyway, comparing the thesis to past, present and future experience
is not something that is done quickly, especially because in family
matters one might be tempted to ignore a few aspects in relation to
some family members, also for the sake of the stability and harmony
of the family as a whole. In 2002 I had a discussion with Christine
about this thesis (without Jupiter/Saturn) at aamod, where I got the
impression from her (she's quite earthy) that she tried at least
partially to defend some structure in her own family without really
questioning things afresh. I guess that is quite a natural reaction
and others might likely experience my reactions when it comes to my
family in a similar way.
Feedback (general or specific) welcome...
Alain
[one more for Valentine's day...]
[see http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ for
a collection of previous posts for full context]
Book of Changes - Nodes as Gates
The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
Yet, some things can be said about the nodes.
At the northern node, the moon rises above the
path of the sun and the other planets. Thus the
northern node has to do with things that rise
into consciousness and the southern node with
things that sink back into the unconscious.
Any new life serves to balance imbalances that
have been "committed" in the past by parents and
by ancestors. Energies that could not be put to
practice consciously in the past, now need to be
released in the new individual. By doing so,
each individual helps to re-balance things, thus
makes his/her parents and ancestors happier, and
consequently -- by feedback -- him-/herself.
Since consciously striving into the particular
direction of the sign/house of the northern node
tends to make happier in any situation of life,
what makes happy is related to free will, since
it is done independently of the motion of the
planets and independently of one's own planets.
The southern node still serves a purpose. It is
activated instinctively in unexpected situations,
and some practice of it is still necessary --
simply to define where to go consciously.
The nodes are gates, they regulate the flow of
energies through them.
[I sense a relation between the nodes and India,
also because of the common association of nodes
with reincarnation, but not only. But I have at
the moment little knowledge of Indian astrology,
philosophy, mythology etc. What is at the root of
thinking in India, what corresponds in importance
to astrology in the West and the I Ching in the
Far East, if anything ?]
Richard Nolle:
: Kerry's publicity material states he was born on DEC 11, 1943 in Denver,
: CO. Frances McEvoy quotes Kerry's mother as saying he was born at sunrise.
: The US Naval Observatory -
: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html#forma - figures sunrise
: on DEC 11, 1943 at 7:10 AM MST (Mountain Standard Time). Mountain War Time
: (MWT) was in effect at that date and place: 8:10 AM MWT = 7:10 AM MST.
: Calculating a chart for these data yields an ascendant of 17d30m
: Sagittarius, Sun conjunct the ascendant.
Just three associations with "sunrise" for Kerry that
exist independently of the precise birthtime (generally,
I would consider a precise knowledge of birthtime most
of the time necessary for a good prognosis, but then
again, I am not very good at this stuff anyway):
- AC-fire-move, hence Kerry is a fitting candidate for a party
that labels itself as progressive, as aiming to change things.
- The sun is rising, hence there is an association to Kerry's
(and Bush's) Pluto in Leo (sun), their generational sign.
- Kerry's AC is likely Sagittarius, like probably for the USA
(somewhat uncertain in both cases...)
(By the way: Bush is president 43, if he gets re-elected
he would still be number 43, but if someone else is elected
this year or 4 years later, he/she would then be president 44.
In the I Ching, 43 fits maybe quite well with the previous 3
years, while it appears that 44 might also fit quite well
with a woman, like Hillary Clinton -- but I'll leave that to
the experts and then to the people to decide... ;)
Link to I Ching (Wilhelms Translation, full version):
http://ftpwww.cce.unipr.it/~deyoung/I_Ching_Wilhelm_Translation.html
[see http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ for
a collection of previous posts and full context]
[second attempt to grasp the nodes, the first one
was maybe a bit to impatient (sun in Aquarius)...]
Book of Changes - Lunar Nodes
The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
come back as a cow in my next life?
Man: No, one does not come back as something that
one has been before.
There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
then again feed young cows. That is why what can
grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
and house of the northern node.
Some analytical attempts and why they appear not
to reveal much about the nodes themselves:
The lunar nodes are the two spots where the lunar
path meets the path of the sun and also roughly of
most other planets. Thus the nodes are lunar. Also
the nodes are places where two things meet, hence
they are about the numbers 1 and 2. At birth, the
unit of mother and child becomes two individuals.
For the child, that sudden experience of opposites
(soft/hard, wet/dry, hot/cold, in/out, me/world)
becomes deeply connected to the mother. Hence the
connection between 2 and moon.
But does the above really say much about the nodes?
Is not more so that it says some things about moon,
mother, the number 2, the 2nd house, etc.? There
are similar ways in which the nodes can be connected
to the father: The child recognizes in the father
a part of him-/herself that was there before birth
and is now still there. That restores some hopes
into a continuity (unity, 1) of the world, into a
reliable unity between 2 people. Or take the cow and
the grass above -- the energy that makes that cycle
work is ultimately the light of the sun that drives
the photosynthesis in the grass. But does that not
again rather say something about father, sun, the
numbers 1 and 2 than about the nodes?
The nodes are seen as mouth and anus of a celestial
dragon that consists of 8 parts. The symbolism of
the number 8 leads to the transformation of earth
(fire-earth-water: 1+4+3=8), to Uranus, the symbol
for infinity, which ressembles a sketch of a fish,
which leads to the two perpendicular fish in the
constellation of Pisces, forming an 8x8 matrix
(mother), related to chess and the I Ching etc.
But does that mean that nodes are only about the
transformation of the element earth? Not really,
because people also drink (water), breathe (air)
and food contains energy (fire). And they do not
only produce earth, but also speak (air) etc.
In essence, the nodes are no things, they do not
have any attributes. Twisting things around --
like a Moebius tape -- anything that comes into
contact with the nodes is transformed and related
in interesting and deep ways to other things.
[The inspiration for using a joke between men and
women came from "Valentine's Day", which reminded
me of two Bavarian comedians from the early 20th
century, Karl Valentin and Lisl Karlstadt. So there
is certainly also a relation to Aquarius, but to Leo
as well, see similar glyphs of Leo and the nodes.
Any sign can be connected, say moon-Cancer-Hera and
cow-Hera or 8-Scorpio, 2-Taurus, 1-Aries, etc.]
[Here is also the rewritten version of the posts about
planets and (family) relations. I first did not want to
post this rewritten version, yet, as not to flood the
newsgroup with my posts. But then I realized that it
also relates nicely to the nodes: I have the southern
node in Scorpio, in close conjunction with Neptune. The
original posts were quite scorpionic, subliminally
poking around in people's feelings by not getting the
things exactly right, only partially -- although that
was not my conscious intention. And I did not feel well
after posting them, maybe because of actual feedback by
people reading the posts and feeling maybe a bit hurt
or maybe that was mostly a process in my head -- Anyway,
I hope that the revised posts get things across in the
sense of my northern node in Taurus, realistically and
also quite harmonically... Thanks!]
Book of Changes - Planets and Relations
Different planets are associated with different
relationships. Mars and Venus are associated with
lovers, sun and moon with father and mother, etc.
This rises the question whether in the relation
between two people, different planets would play
a stronger role than others -- depending on the
exact type of their relation.
For example, the question is whether the mother's
moon would more strongly influence her relation
to her child than her other planets. Conversely,
the question is also whether the moon of a child
would more strongly influence the relation to
the mother than any other planet. Both questions
are difficult to answer with certainty, because
the aspects between mother's and child's planets
would likely skew the picture in most cases.
Also, one would expect the moon to play a similar
role if one person is not an actual mother, but
in a maternal role, like a teacher, boss, aunt.
Here are planets and proposed relations:
sun: as/towards father
moon: as/towards mother
Venus: as/towards man
Mars: as/towards woman
Mercury: as/towards sibling
Jupiter: as/towards grandfather
Saturn: as/towards grandmother
Sun and moon cross one generation, Jupiter and
Saturn two, Venus, Mars and Mercury none. Mars
and Venus also specifically apply to male/female
lovers and friends. Mercury applies also to
rivals for the same person or thing (just like
siblings are rivals for the love of the parents).
Depending on the situation, the same two people
might be lovers, rivals or teacher/pupil, etc.,
which would lead to different behaviour. That such
changed behaviour occurs, is a common experience,
although it remains open in which way exactly.
Relations between grandmother or grandfather and
grandchildren are often more relaxed than from any
of them to their children resp. parents. From the
above that would be somewhat understandable, since
grandfather and grandchild would preceive their
son/father in the same way (the sun sign) and the
same could be said about grandmother, grandchild
and their perception of their daughter/mother.
The common "issue" would likely create a bond.
me:
: The nodes are mysterious
I just saw Sofia Coppola's "Lost in Translation". There
the guy and the girl meet two times by chance. The first
time he looks at her in the elevator and she smiles at
him, but forgets him. The second time he sees her from
inside the taxi that is driving him to the airport and
stops to kiss her goodbye.
Actually, I stole the word "mysterious" from Liz Greene,
in her analysis of Astrodienst's chart (www.astro.com):
"These mysterious points are often associated with "fate"
because they represent the intersection points of the
Sun's and Moon's orbits: a combination of "destiny"
(the Sun) and "embodiment" (the Moon)."
The first meeting by chance with someone one might fancy
is often without consequences (in the movie she forgets),
but if a second one occurs by chance, then things are
usually different, more fated.
Life has a beginning and an end (two points) and between
one is "lost in translation", lost in a transformation
that one does not really understand.
Is that the difference between the first and the second
meeting by chance, that one feels less lost in life then?
The movie was very beautiful and also very symmetric:
In most scenes one could have interchanged the two main
actors and the scene would have still felt real. That is
something that is extremely rare, in movies and in life
(to be able to mentally exchange men and women in any
situation and get something that still feels real).
me:
: The nodes are mysterious
Im a recent post to aam, Ingrid wrote about a guy
called William James Sidis, born April Fool's day
1898 in Brookline (MA) to two Jewish immigrants
into the USA. The northern node is at a square to
Venus and at a semisquare to Mars (cf. earthquake
in Bam), related to earth and its transformation.
Among one of the books he wrote is one called "The
Animate and the Inanimate", in which I found an
interesting observation, clearly related to nodes,
namely that what happens to non-living things looks
alive when one reverses time (like when rewinding
a video tape). He uses one example where two drops
of mercury drop onto a metal plate, flow together
into a single drop and then slowly diffuse into the
metal (mercury does that). Reversed, that would
look like a blob of mercury growing out of the plate
and then spliting (like a cell) into two parts.
Physically, that is not astonishing, at least today,
because living things locally violate the second law
of thermodynamics, they do create order locally, but
heat up the environment so that globally, the law is
not violated. But symbolically the identification of
dead/alive with the flow of time feels deep.
The book and others are at http://www.sidis.net
Interesting twist: Sidis was interested in Native
Americans, even wrote a book about their history.
That adds another implicit reference from the nodes
to India (after cows, etc.), namely "Indians".
[If/when this comes through, I will also post it to
aam, in order not to steal topics from there.]
Ingrid:
: Hi all,
:
: I ran into this site ( http://www.daveslater.telinco.co.uk/sidis.htm ) which
: gives a biography of William James Sidis, a genius man who is not remembered
: for any contributions to science/art/economy/etc. Reading how intelligent he
: was and how his professional life resulted in hardly any published theories
: and breakthroughs, I thought he might make an interesting astrological
: study.
: I haven't done this yet and will not right now, as I already have too many
: things on my mind. This post is not intended as a disguised "can one of you
: please do it for me", I just figured if I think it's interesting, someone
: else might think so too. ;-)
: Ingrid
Thanks for bringing Sidis to my attention. Helped me to find
out something more about the lunar nodes, see copy of recent
post that I made to alt.astrology.tropical, attached below.
I think maybe child prodigies have to do with the nodes,
with a somewhat disturbed evolution/transformation, where
some things evolve too quickly or too far. People like, say,
Einstein, typically evolved more smoothly and gently.
Here is the post (for full context see my recent posts to
aat that contain "Book of Changes" in their subject):
* From: Alain StaIder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: Re: Book of Changes - Lunar Nodes
* Message-ID: <astalder-790A84.00032119022004@news.bluewin.ch>
* Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:21:24 CST
me:
: The nodes are mysterious
Im a recent post to aam, Ingrid wrote about a guy
called William James Sidis, born April Fool's day
1898 in Brookline (MA) to two Jewish immigrants
into the USA. The northern node is at a square to
Venus and at a semisquare to Mars (cf. earthquake
in Bam), related to earth and its transformation.
Among one of the books he wrote is one called "The
Animate and the Inanimate", in which I found an
interesting observation, clearly related to nodes,
namely that what happens to non-living things looks
alive when one reverses time (like when rewinding
a video tape). He uses one example where two drops
of mercury drop onto a metal plate, flow together
into a single drop and then slowly diffuse into the
metal (mercury does that). Reversed, that would
look like a blob of mercury growing out of the plate
and then spliting (like a cell) into two parts.
Physically, that is not astonishing, at least today,
because living things locally violate the second law
of thermodynamics, they do create order locally, but
heat up the environment so that globally, the law is
not violated. But symbolically the identification of
dead/alive with the flow of time feels deep.
The book and others are at http://www.sidis.net
Interesting twist: Sidis was interested in Native
Americans, even wrote a book about their history.
That adds another implicit reference from the nodes
to India (after cows, etc.), namely "Indians".
[If/when this comes through, I will also post it to
aam, in order not to steal topics from there.]
Larry Swain:
: Saw a special with Diane Sawyer interviewing Mel Gibson about his new
: film on the Passion of the Christ and all the controversy it's stirred
: up. Interesting man, seemed completely sincere. To the point of
: nervous vulnerability, even.
:
: Intrigued, I checked my own databases and his data wasn't there, so I
: did a web search. Star IQ's site was at the top of the list, with a
: chart from Astrodatabank and a mini-delineation entitled "Mel Gibson
: Has What Women Want". Not even looking at the by-line, I read the
: article with interest. At the end I finally noticed the by-line:
: Sharyn Smith!
:
: I especially liked the section describing why "Mel Gibson isn't likely
: to end up single any time soon". Hmmmm. Sour grapes, Sharyn? <eg>
:
: All evil jesting aside (IOW, running and ducking for cover, heh!), I'm
: fascinated by the timing of his release of this movie and particularly
: the effect it's having upon Christians, Muslims, and Jews given the
: current political/religious climate. On one level the movie is
: obviously an allegory for his own passion (which he admits and also
: correctly defines as coming from the Greek root "pathos", for
: suffering), but it also seems designed to bring up a lot of our own
: latent religious and racial passions and prejudices (pathos?) to get
: them up on the table for processing.
:
: Deep, dark subject, that, and IMO very pertinent to the current state
: of human affairs (if you'll pardon the pun). Amazing how an apparently
: straightforward story can stir all that up, innit?
:
: Gibson's data is Jan 3, 1956, 4:45 PM EST, Peekskill, NY 41N17 73W55
:
: Observations/opinions?
Deep and dark, really. I noticed the sun in Capricorn at the DC.
Reminds me of the following things that I saw and considered
during the previous two weeks or so: I say a post to the german
astrology group de.alt.astrologie, a group that is typically
German, with lots of planets in Capricorn (e.g. Charlemagne
was crowned at X-mas 800 by the Pope in Rome, and it is disputed
whether Charlemagne had planned it or the Pope caught him by
surprise). The post mentioned the 4 archangels. I thought that
they had to be connected to the 4 elements and also found such
links at google. Since I was also thinking at that time about
the 4 angles (AC-MC-DC-IC) and interested maybe mainly in the
meaning of the DC, I thought about the "watery" archangel,
Gabriel. That name reminded me of an interview with a German
who had some important rule in the post-war trials against the
Nazis, maybe as a prosecutor, but I could not find out his full
name via google, rather found apparently many different people
with Gabriel in their names. I only remember two deep stories
about how people can behave in some situations from the
interview. The reason I am reproducing them here, is that the
words "angle" and "angel" are apparently the same, so there is
Mel Gibson's DC (Gabriel) in Capricorn (related to Germany).
Passion is something like water, it breaks and flows down.
(Please consider skipping the following two stories, if the
Holocaust and WWII are still too close to you; they are
likely to stir up old memories.)
Story 1: A Jewish woman during or before WWII got a letter by
the Gestapo that ordered her to come to a Gestapo office at
a given time. She was very scared, of course, especially
since her husband had already been deported. She went there
all the same, and two officers from the Gestapo reimbursed
her 0.50 Mark, because her husband had had to pay for his
train ticket to a concentration camp. The price had been 19.50
Mark (unfortunately, I do not remember the exact numbers), but
her husband only had a 20 Mark bill with him. So the Gestapo
officers handed her the change.
Story 2: German soldier truck drivers made a request for some
changes to the trucks. The trucks were used to drive prisoners
somewhere out of camps, let the prisoners get out, supposedly
for a pause, and soldiers would then shoot them. Now the truck
drivers complained that the sounds from the dying prisoners
could not be beared, that for the sake of humanity, they wanted
to have a wooden board at the back of their seats, so that the
sounds would be damped.
Roman law as it is used in middle Europe is dry, everything
that is not explicitly forbidden by the law, is permitted.
Generally, that dryness gives people reliable security, each
person can usually determine him-/herself if what he/she is
doing is "right", and is protected from future prosecution.
But the Nazis used that dryness to create a machine to do
things like the Holocaust. Many Germans were involved in one
way of the other in the Holocaust, but they were mainly just
"doing their duty", filling out forms etc., doing all in
accordance with the law and administrative directives.
English law is wet (cf. also Orwell's Oceania, i.e. roughly
GB plus its former colonies, including the USA), which gives
people maybe less safety, because what was considered right
at some time might be considered wrong a few years later and
prosecuted. Also extremes like people getting millions of
dollars for things that happened to them, if only they can
pay for a good lawyer, are problems inherent in the wetness.
But wet laws allow to prosecute things that go out of hand,
like the Nazi laws or the East German order to shoot people
trying to escape to the West.
I guess the 4 Archangels are much older than Christian
religion, probably related to Sphinxes, which carried the
attributes of what was then the cardinal signs, namely
Leo, Aquarius (human face), Scorpio and Taurus. In the
mythological first Age of Leo, I guess the lion would
have been associated with the AC (sunrise) and then
probably DC with Aquarius, fitting maybe with the strong
Aquarian influence on the chart of the 3rd Reich and
also of the 1st (if I remember correctly; all three were
saturnian, either Capricorn or Aquarius).
me:
: [...] I thought about the "watery" archangel,
: Gabriel. That name reminded me of an interview with a German
: who had some important rule in the post-war trials against the
: Nazis, maybe as a prosecutor, but I could not find out his full
: name via google, rather found apparently many different people
: with Gabriel in their names. [...]
His name is Gabriel Bach, he was one in a team of 4
prosecutors in the early 60's trials in Israel against
Adolf Eichmann.
In German the word "Bach" means "small river", and such
small rivers can be quite passionate, they can grow
quickly if it rains and break and flow down heavily.
Here is some precise information about his life (he was
born 1927-03-13 in Berlin; I could not find a birthtime
on the web):
http://www.math.temple.edu/~zeilberg/family/gabriel.html
Dan Barkye:
: -- I can't quite follow you, Alain (?), I admit. My bad. Sorry. But one
: thing about nodes. I read in one of the comments to A. Shvarzeneger in
: "astrodatabank", I believe, that a direct node is an extarordinary omen
: of luck and success. If anyone here knows somethign about this, then I'd
: welcome the info. I'm very curious to know more about it.
Thanks for the hint (never considered r/s/d in the
nodes :), and also for the implicit symbolic content
(omen-om-omega, Shvarzeneger-Shiva).
Maria Alexander:
: Pete, the guy has taken a drubbing and will continue to take a
: drubbing, diurnal or no, it seems. When Saturn grinds back over his
: ASC -- the controversy thickened in the media back when it went SA
: conjunct his ASC -- he's gonna feel it again.
:
: And I love how Neptune is transiting his natal Venus right now.
: Ooooh, Mel! Such sacrifices for your art!
:
: <coughs into hand>
:
: Hard for me to be sympathetic or even neutral about this whole issue.
: His father is a holocaust denier. (My uncle by marriage survived a
: concentration camp as teen, by the way, but his entire family was
: murdered before his eyes. I used to stand at his arm when I was
: little and read the tattooed numbers.) I've read articles about the
: scene Mel removed so as to not completely infuriate Jews. The dialog
: in that deleted scene is definitely inflammatory, IMHO. His branch of
: catholicism does not recognize the Pope or Vatican II, which absolved
: the Jews of guilt in Jesus' death. (Gotta love that whole deicide
: thing.) I'm not saying he carries all his father's views, but boy's
: got issues, all the way around.
:
: Is he married? T. Pluto is currently crossing his Juno. I wonder how
: *that's* going!
:
: ^M^aria
Sometimes it scares me how precisely my intuition hits
a theme with a single item picked out of a birth chart
(my Uranus-Pluto conjunct in Virgo at a sextile to my
Neptune-s.node conjuct in Scorpio; all I knew about
Mel Gibson was seeing him in a few Lethal Weapon movies
or in "Tequila Sunrise" etc.).
But the link between AC/DC and signs that I found that
way is interesting and hints at an archaic numbering
of houses that is at least of some significance:
1-Leo
2-Virgo
3-Libra
4-Scorpio
5-Sagittarius
6-Capricorn
7-Aquarius
8-Pisces
9-Aries
10-Taurus
11-Gemini
12-Cancer
For example, it would maybe explain the association
of 12th house with prisons (Cancer's protective shell),
the association of the 2nd house with money (Virgo's
associated planet Mercury), the association of the
8th house with death (constellation, ocean, end of
river), or also why Hercules' was fighting against
a lion as his first task and then wearing its skin.
This order of signs hints also quite directly at the
nodes, with sun (1) and moon (2) connected to both
beginning and end. The first house is born like the
sun god Brahma out of the water (Cancer, moon).
After creation, the second house starts to transform
things (Virgo, Mercury). Symmetrically, before the
end, the 11th house (Gemini, Mercury) transfroms
things again, before they end in the 12th.
The Architect and the Source in the Matrix Trilogy
fit very well with that archaic sun/moon symbolism
("everything that has a beginning also has an end").
Cancer, as the first water sign, symbolizes a source
of a river, while the arch in architect is related
to the arch of the glyphs for Leo and the n.node,
as well as of the greek letter Omega. The chosen one
(Neo, anagram for "one") only meets the Architect
once and then no more, which the Architect knows in
advance -- sun and moon only occur once in the above
assignment of signs to planets, all others two times.
It is also revealing that Neo meets an Indian couple
with their daughter that will become the new Source
at the train station between the world of machines
(dead) and the world of people (alive). This reminds
me of the Egyptian goddess Maat, who judged the souls
of the deceased between the world of the living and the
kingdom of the dead. (See Liz Greene's "Astrology of
Fate", the section about Libra, and also what I wrote
about it in http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
a few weeks after 9/11, see section 3.15).
As far as I understand, the idea of Leo being the
first Age goes back to the Age of Taurus in Egypt
(and maybe other places). It has to do with the
epoch in which there would have been an alignement
between sky and earth, namely when Milky Way and
Nile would have aligned in the sky in spring at
sunrise (I hope I got that factually correct). But
origins of astrology are not so clear to determine,
mostly because some things have probably at least
collectively and unconsciously been important already
before the Age of Aries (or been remembered then).
With Mars now in conjunction/opposition with the
nodes in Taurus/Scorpio, it is maybe not astonishing
that some more archaic stuff from that previous Age
comes to surface...
Or maybe the more scorpionic touch of my posts in
this thread is also related to my posting of a copy
of an aat post about the nodes to aam, for which now
some scorpionic energy is flowing back to here...
A new Kuiper Belt object (like Quaoar or Pluto) has
been discovered Feb 17. It may be somewhat bigger
than Quaoar, more than half the size of Pluto.
Info by the discoverers (the same people who found
Quaoar in June 2002):
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/2004dw/
me:
: This order of signs hints also quite directly at the
: nodes, with sun (1) and moon (2) connected to both
: beginning and end. The first house is born like the
: sun god Brahma out of the water (Cancer, moon).
That points to another prominent point in Mel Gibson's
chart, namely his Uranus at the transition between
Cancer and Leo, just about a degree into Leo. If I
remember correctly, that is also where Sharyn's sun
is, but just at the end of Cancer (I hope you permit).
And it is also where my Mercury is. Actually, in my
case things are a bit special: Mercury is just at the
end of the 12th house ("archaic houses": Cancer) and
just at the beginning of Leo, and it is almost still,
just a little bit retrograde. Very nodal.
I remember a story that links to the archaic nature
of Leo. It was told to me by somebody of turquish
origin who had just become a Swiss citizen. A male
lion is lying in the sun, relaxing. Some hyenas are
disturbing the female lions, they are teasing them
repeately. For some time, the lion just ignores that.
At some point, he gets up, walks over and quickly
kills or injures a few hyenas, walks back calmly to
his resting point and lies down again.
The nodes are dangerous. They span from the deepest
archaic instincts to the most philosophical. In
Switzerland, a 700 year old country with 5 planets
plus the northern node in Leo, but none at its
start, the Lions usually are much tamer, often not
drawn the apparently more common way with their
claws sticking out and dual tails or heads, but
resting calmly. That reminds me of architecture
and philosophy. Much in Switzerland is about making
good laws and rules. If they are well done, then
things will sort of mysteriously, magically turn
out quite well, sort of circumventing the dark and
maybe weaker sides of people. Switzerland may on the
surface appear like any other national state, but
one should be aware that it was similar to that way
already quite a bit before the others.
To confirm the danger of the point Cancer-Leo, it
is probably sufficient to mention that WWII started
with Pluto at that transition point.
That essentially wraps things up for me this time.
No more white rabbits. The next "Plutino" has been
discovered, at apparently a trine to Pluto, and
with approximately the same orbital period (both
3/2 of Neptune's). That closes the lapse of freedom
that Quaoar offered (beginning and end). The new
object will have to obey the usual rules of the
Astronomical Union, it will first get a number and
then the discoverers will be allowed to suggest a
name, but they will not get around suggesting the
name of an underworld diety, as this is apparently
the rule for any object in a Pluto-like orbit...
Back to philosophy for me (and Quaoar).
(I really don't like the archaic stuff very much,
and prefer to invest energy into the things that
the ancient Greeks and others created to replace
the old fatalistic world view, including the idea
-- which I would call very wise architecture --
to cut the archaic Scorpion in the sky, twist it
like a Moebius tape and put it together again as
Libra's scale pans (formerly Scorpio's claws) and
a new Scorpio with still a stinging tail. Thanks!)
Final Reflection (3.15)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
(section 3.15 = pi + 6/7, thus about the nodes):
: There is a touch of Gemini in Feynman's initial reaction to the
: death of his wife; I have that in me too. It is some maybe extreme
: form of diverting feelings from the actual events to culture, to
: making something better out of it (see previous part about Gemini).
: Hermes, the god associated with Gemini, is also often the one who
: accompanies people down into the underworld and back up. He is the
: one who does all the diplomatic negotiations with the creatures of
: the underworld. [...]
: In [5], a situation from ancient Egypt is described, between the
: "land of the living and the kingdom of the dead". In the center of
: the hall stood Maat, the goddess of truth, ready to weigh the heart
: of the deceased in a large scale. Forty-two judges, some with animal
: heads, sat around the hall listening to the soul of the deceased who
: had to tell them about every bad thing that he did *not* do. If the
: sins outweighed the heart of the deceased, it was devoured by the
: monster Amemait, a mixture of crocodile, hippopotamus and lion.
In life, because one often would have the option
to say or do more than one finally does and can
do, the things that one does not say or not do,
are more important than the ones that are done.
The music is between the notes. -- Miles Davis
The music is between the nodes. (me)
Book of Changes (Future Releases)
Future Releases of my "Book of Changes" will be three times a year,
in Taurus, Scorpio and Capricorn. The idea is still to post the new
things here first, but in a more controlled way, as to regulate the
pace of evolution to a more natural level automatically.
At the same time (shortly afterwards), I will update my web site,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ and maybe publish to other
places. That is to ensure some steady growth.
Thanks and see you in spring :)
Alain
In Sofia Coppola's movie "Lost in Translation",
one of the two main characters, Charlotte (Scarlett
Johansson) hurts her toe which turns black during
the movie until the other main character, Bob Harris
(Bill Murray), takes her to a hospital. Yet another
one of the nodal dual loops in the movie: The toe
that is first "white", then is hurt, turns black,
and finally heals again.
TOE is an abbreviation used by scientists to denote
"Theory of Everything". It means a mathematical
theory that would describe all four known forces in
nature using the same framework.
As I tried to explain already in earlier posts, any
physical/mathematical TOE still bears the fundamental
limitations of science: description of the world by
numbers (no experience of smells, colors, love, etc.),
separation of the world into object and subject, of
which only objects are described by numbers, but the
subject and how it interacts with objects cannot be
described scientifically/mathematically (because only
objects have numbers). Short, that is a view that is
airy only, no fire/water/earth, only logic.
Today the common reply to this criticism is along
the line of Churchill's comment about democracy as
being a very bad form of government, but the best
one that we know. Similarly, scientists would call
science the best tool we have to describe nature.
Well, yesterday I had an idea how one could look at
nature in a way that would still be quite scientific,
but could get rid of the subject/object separation
and maybe even describe smells, colors, or any other
experiences in life and love.
But first a warning: Yesterday Neptune transited in
opposition to my natal sun, so what follows may be
only an illusion, but maybe still a fascinating one
and revealing at least some things astrologically...
(The current background: Uranus, sun and Mercury in
Pisces, related to Dionysus who as the only man has
the experience of both loops, because he was born
twice, once from his mother and a second time from
the thigh of Zeus. Chiron is currently in Capricorn,
forcing to "drop" some structures and then allowing
to pick up what feels worth to pick up again. There
is certainly more, but let me leave it at that.)
The idea:
Instead of trying to construct the world out of
"ones", like numbers, atoms, elementary particles,
strings, charges, masses, etc., one should maybe
try with something like the lunar nodes, like the
path of the number 8 or the path along a Moebius
tape -- something that carries already the deepest
secrets of the world in it.
Let me get a bit more precise, before I can maybe
explain a bit better what I mean:
Definition of "8-building-block": A path that leads
to one of its points twice, but differently.
Say you walk along the path of the number 8. Then you
get to the point in the middle twice, but coming on
a different path from a different angle and walking
on into a different direction on a different path.
What is needed for the definition of the "8-building-
block"? You need space in at least two dimensions
(point and path) and you need time (because there is
movement along the path, two meetings at different
times at the same place).
So you get to the two fundamental things that Kant
found out to exist independently of any particular
way of looking at the world -- space and time. They
are what is needed for thinking.
Thinking requires loops or is -- and that is part of
what makes the idea fascinating -- identical to loops.
If your head would just play the pictures that you
see with your eyes in real-time, that would not be
thinking. What makes it thinking, is the ability to
remember previous images and to compare them to other
old or new images (I am using "image" also to describe
words, any entities in the mind).
Maybe a better building block would be a Moebius tape
that is infinitely thin:
Definition of "Moebius-building-block": A path that
leads to all of its points twice, but differently.
The reason that makes this definition maybe more
natural is that it requires a 3 dimensional space
(because of the orientation of the infinitesimally
narrow tape in 3 dimensional space) -- just like
we experience space.
I am, of course, aware that the above is still quite
a bit away from being a contestant to today's science
when it comes to describing the world. But, and feel
free to consider this a leonine (my sun sign) "Holy
Grail" or "Philosopher's Stone", but I think there is
something deep and important to discover there and I
will try...
Note that I have Neptune in conjunction with my south
node in Scorpio. Kant had the nodes in the same signs
as me, but Neptune in conjunction with the north node
in Taurus. So, maybe I have the opportunity to make
an important complementary contribution to fundamental
questions ;)
Charles Harvey writes the following about Sun-Neptune
oppositions in his article about Sun-Neptune aspects:
: The opposition is analogous to the Full Moon and can be seen
: as a point of fruition. This is the phase of most manifest duality
: and objectivity, where an acute consciousness of the two factors
: in the cycle is reached. Here the individual (Sun) must become
: aware of relationship with the collective (Neptune). The striving
: for individuation/separation is intense and yet can only be
: successful if the individual truly understands the extent to which
: individuality depends upon universality.
Read the rest at:
http://www.astrology-world.com/articles/harvey.html
In "Lost in Translation", Charlotte makes a trip to
Kyoto, along the music of the French duo "Air", namely
"Alone in Kyoto". There is a scene in that movie where
Charlotte steps across a path of round pillars that
emerge slightly out of the water...
Here is a link to the first 30 seconds of the song:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0001I1K32001012/028-1402425-6859704
(requires RealOne Player, www.real.com)
DJ:
: Sounds like a recipe for time travel!
: I saw an interesting article about using M&M
: shapes--squashed spheres--as building blocks. Turns
: out they work much better at filling spaces than
: regular spheres. And while it's not the same as the
: 8-path meeting in the middle, points on the "top" and
: "bottom" are much closer than those around the edges.
That's interesting :) Interesting also that randomly
packed "almond M&M shapes" (cigar shapes) even pack
more closely (they are even narrower in the middle).
I could not help to be reminded of penguins who have
a similar shape and through that of a Monty Python
sketch in which a couple of scientists are trying to
find out if penguins are intelligent: Something like
five penguins are standing on a tiny island in a pool
with a little wall around it. The scientists ask them
questions like "What is the capital of Finland?" or
something like that. No replies. Then they compare the
results with a neutral control group: Something like
five people from different places in typically local
dresses. The scientists ask them exactly the same
questions. No replies either (apparently none of the
five people speak english).
The scientists conclude that penguins are intelligent
since they responded the same way as the people did.
So there is the number 8/infinity again: two circular
pools with people/penguins in them. (If it was really
5+5=10, then that would also lead to Mercury/Pluto.)
Two more nodal impressions from "Lost in Translation":
In the hospital there is a scene in which the guy is
waiting for the girl who has her toe examined. He is
trying to talk to an older Japanese lady. They end
up drawing circles in the air, side by side, just like
the number eight. The girl leaves the examination room
and comes back to the room, where the guy is waiting,
through a door with the number 8 on it. Waiting rooms
are also related to translation/transformation.
The girl once asks the guy why Japanese people switch
the letters "r" and "l" (or maybe more precisely, why
they use a letter that is am mixture of both). He then
answers that it is just for "jux". Maybe the following
explains a bit why: The words "left" and "right" start
with "l" and "r", respectively. In the past, the right
hand was typically used for eating, while the left one
was typically used for dirtier tasks. So the left hand
is related to the southern node (anus) and the right
hand to the northern node (mouth). Why is there "left"
and "right" ? Just for jux ? Just to annoy everybody ?
Anyway, the mixture of left and right in Asia may be
a bit revealing about the thinking there. As far as
I know, Asian people have a tendency to introduce
some tiny errors into what they do, because only gods
make no mistake and it would be sort of "Hybris" for
a human being to create something without mistakes.
I don't know how much of the symbolic content was
introduced consciously into the movie, but I suspect
not to much, at least judgining from the following
interview:
http://www.greg.org/sofia_coppola_interview.html
One more nodal impression, only indirectly from the
movie: Sofia Coppola says that that the redheaded
woman who is singing "Scarborough Fair" is the real
singer of that bar and she actually heard her sing
that song when she (SC) was in Tokyo once. Yesterday
or the day before, I saw an episode of "Futurama" in
which a descendant of Art Garfunkel sings the same
song with a robot called "Silence". Mr. Garfunkel
starts to sing smoothly, then the robot joins with
an annoying mechanical voice. There are the nodes
again, alive (human) and dead (machine), relating
things also back to the Matrix movies...
Quote from the interview:
: OQ: What would you like audiences to take away from
: their experience of watching the film? A mood? A moment?
: A specific emotion?
: SC: I can only say why I wanted to make the movie: to
: convey what I love about Tokyo and visiting the city.
: It's about moments in life that are great but don't last.
: They don't go on, but you always have the memory and they
: have an effect on you. That's what I was thinking about.
I saw that you posted (accidentally, I guess) your
reply first to aam. In analogy to the Monty Python
experiment, I am curious whether there will be a
response there for a post apparently out of the blue...
Alain
I just got the CD with the soundtrack for "Lost
in Translation" and listened to "Alone in Kyoto"
that I mentioned here recently (TOE post). It
is a song that is really stereo, there is more
than a marginal difference between the right (r)
and left (l) track -- something that I have not
heard any more since the 60's. And the song ends
almost in the middle, then starts again and ends
with the sound of the sea...
Reminds me of maybe my favorite song, "Riders on
the Storm", where you hear a distant thunder storm
and the song also almost dies in the middle.
Mercury is just past my Saturn at the end of Pisces
(where also Moebius had his Saturn) and into Aries,
to join Venus and Mars in spring.
Jim Morrison (lead singer of "The Doors" (or may
I call them "The Nodes") from who "Riders on the
Storm" is) lived in Los Angeles, and considered it
there as "The End", with the Pacific Ocean to the
West. The recent tribulations of this autumn and
winter started after a short trip by me with two
friends to LA and Las Vegas, where it effectively
ended because they broke up (at least so far).
Some impressions: LV has become Disney Land, except
maybe a new show in the old part of LV, where there
is a dome (or a cuppola), like in a catholic cathedral
with lots of lights on it. There they projected some
very impressive images, changing quickly and to the
music from the 60's on... In comparison, the commuter
train that connects two hotels was very 90s, warning
people with a female recorded voice that the train
would now start to roll and then started to roll sooo
slowly that a marble would have remained in place.
Los Angeles comes from angel or angle...
Las Vegas, place to start or end relations...
Chirality (left/right) - Chiron...
Chiron in Capricorn (structure, cross)...
Some gossip: Did you know that Mad Max has a
horseshoe kidney (two kidneys connected so that
it looks like a horseshoe or the greek letter
Omega or the symbol for the nodes) ? Did you
know that he found his wife through a dating
service ? Did you know that Sofia Coppola's first
memory was apparently from the set of Appocalypse
Now, her fathers movie where some guy travels up
a river to the source of many things...
Please excuse my sun-Neptune opposition and I hope
this sagittarian improvisation (today's moon sign)
has helped to maybe catch a few things about the
present times and about the angles, nodes and Chiron
better than any conscious and structured analysis
could -- at least in such short time and words.
'nuff said...
me (2004-02-22):
: Book of Changes (Future Releases)
:
: Future Releases of my "Book of Changes" will be three times a year,
: in Taurus, Scorpio and Capricorn. The idea is still to post the new
: things here first, but in a more controlled way, as to regulate the
: pace of evolution to a more natural level automatically.
:
: At the same time (shortly afterwards), I will update my web site,
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ and maybe publish to other
: places. That is to ensure some steady growth.
On second thought, I might consider things next christmas.
PS: Charles Harvey indicates the following birth data for
Spain in "Anima Mundi" (volume 19 of CPA Press):
1479-01-19 07:00 Barcelona (06:51:16 UTC, Julian Calendar)
May I hint at the placement of the nodes...
Alan Williams:
[...]
: On the other hand, there are a few contemporary astrologers who use
: ancient methods to great effect. Robert Zoller, for example, was so
: disturbed by how closely his warnings matched the 911 attack that
: he ceased publication of his newsletter; his warnings began more
: than four years before the attack and developed in detail.
:
: On the 9th April 1997 at the Urania Trust Astrology Centre in London,
: he publicly expressed his increasing concern about the rise of Islamic
: fundamentalism and the direct threat this posed to the Western
: democracies. At a private meeting a few days later he said, "Terrorism
: will become the greatest single threat to the West in the early part
: of the next century [21st]. I anticipate the latter part of the year
: 2001 and the early part of 2002 will see a marked increase in
: combating terrorism." ... "America will have a new president when
: all this kicks off and he will be in the stamp of Bush. A younger
: more inexperienced version from the same house".
:
: In August 2000 he wrote, "From September [2001] we are entering a
: period of increased danger to us in the West. In an earlier Nuntius
: I said that there is an increasing threat to the US citizens and this
: is particularly so on the Eastern sea boarder [sic]. I have also said
: that this threat is linked not so much to a new boldness in terrorist
: planning but more to US incompetence. At that time I couched those
: remarks as being non-astrological so as to play down the warning but
: I say again as was said in the July 99 Nuntius if the US does not
: cease acting incompetently, it will invite the depredations of
: adventurers such as Osama bin Laden and Saddam. This is a wake up call.
: Our way of life and cultural values (& our lives) are at stake."
: ... "After September 2001 when the first big crisis will have hit
: the US we will never be the same again."
:
: In the September 2000 issue of "Nuntius" he wrote, "I again draw
: attention to the increasing threat of Islamic terrorism and that
: it will be felt on the US mainland. The greatest period of danger is
: in September 2001. I am not looking at any other forms of terrorism
: though also anticipate others. I am looking at terrorism that is
: rooted in Islamic fundamentalism and directed at everyday citizens
: going about their daily business in our own cities. The destruction
: and loss of life will shock us all. I repeat my warning now for the
: third time that unless the US remains vigilante [sic] it will be
: caught unprepared and will be rocked to its very core. It will be
: an act of war but unlike any other in our history. Our culture and
: way of life and lives are at risk. For the third time I say this
: we have had our wake up call." [2]
[...]
Very impressive, to say the least.
Would be important to know what he predicts for the third
major Al Kaida attack.
May I ask you a direct question: What do you think about
the concrete simple approaches that I presented during the
previous 1.75 years to aam and aat ? Do you think they
would be worth to be promoted by someone else than me ?
(The main reason I am asking is because I am for all that
I can see unable to promote anything, so I am in need for
translators who can reformulate what I found out to in ways
that more people can understand it. More symbolically, I
(sun in Leo) need some kind of Prometheus (Aquarius) who
"steals" my fire and then brings it to humanity... Do you
know anybody who might be interested in that ?)
The major thing I found out is:
- The 12 signs of the zodiac can be described by transitions
between the 4 elements fire, air, water and earth, in a way
that is closely related to Aristotle's theory of the
elements. See http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf ,
Sections 2 and 3, or the relatively new description under
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ or some of me usenet
posts.
The above is in my opinion a very good starting point for a
phenomenological, but quantitative description of the zodiac.
Related to that, and grown out of the primary document above,
maybe these three associatons between numbers and other things
are most important practically (they might be used to prove
directly that there is symbolic content in the world to people
who do not think so):
- The elements can be numbered 1-fire, 2-air, 3-water and
4-earth, assigned to planets in the order 1-sun, 2-moon,
3-Venus, 4-Mars, and to senses in the order 1-see, 2-hear,
3-smell and taste, 4-touch; see above two links or some of
my relatively recent posts to alt.astrology.tropical
For example, the second major Al Kaida attack (3/11) used
modern communication means (2-air), while the first (9/11)
relied on human sacrifice (fire, sun).
Some predictions about a third (that is likely being planned
now by Al Kaida, or already has):
It will be related to water, either in the direct sense (boats,
poisoning of water, etc.) or in the psychological sense (poison,
chemical or biological attacks, etc.). In the sense that Venus
uses her female beauty to get others to do things for her (this
can also be analytically "derived" from the fact that water is
wet in the way Aristotle composed the elements and hence internal,
was well as cold=female, hence passive -- see the above link to
my web site /book/ ), in the sense of Venus, it is also likely
that the attack will use the forces of others to act out, say
by infecting tourists before they return to their home country
and travel by themselves to different places inside their home
country, or the use of ocean or lake currents to transport
something, etc.
The third attack will also combine the things that have been
tested during the first two, just like the female terminator
in Terminator 3 has both the metal skeleton of the first
terminator and the liquid metal shell of the second terminator.
She is also the one who can remote control other machines and
she is the one who succeeds. (cf. also Hercules' 12 tasks).
But, since a circle only closes after pi (3.1459...), the third
attack will remain in some sense similar than the other two, i.e.
it will probably occur within a similar timeframe and also
otherwise not be something that is not considered a possibility
by people trying to defend against future attacks.
A 4th attack, however, would likely be quite a bit different, in
many respects, which is also quite understandable, because the
third one will likely be fated (Venus, 3 Fates, water, etc.).
It will be decisive: If it is something that aimed at killing
many people (say 100'000 or more) and either succeeds or fails
*without* the help of at least some Muslims, that would mean that
the West would very likely go to war (Mars, 4) with Muslims.
So, the decision of what will happen will not only depend on how
well the West defends itself, but also on how Muslims (except
the core of terrorists) will behave, whether, say, somebody with
some knowledge about a planned attack will tell authorities about
it or not. To influence that, of course, some more comprehension
by the West with muslims who are not directly terrorists would
certainly also be quite helpful.
But back to my above questions:
I can hardly reach anybody directly.
Anybody willing to translate for others ?
Please help... :)
(Note that as long as astrology is not widely recognized, it
will not be of much practical help to avoid terrorist attacks
nor to help different cultures to understand each other, at
least not in today's world that relies more and more on the
conscious knowledge of individuals (Age of Aquarius(-Leo));
see also my link of Islam to Virgo that I make in my primary
document linked above.)
Alain StaIder
[please note crosspost to aat and aam]
Thanks everybody for the discussions during the past
(almost) two years. As far as I can see, quite a few
influences by other posters have been woven also into
my posts -- thanks for that too -- and maybe quite a
few times transformed in interesting ways to something
that -- in turn -- was again interesting to the
original posters or to others.
With my Saturn at the end of Pisces, I have tried many
times to end my posts, but without success. The usenet's
southern node in Pisces is also not very helpful in that
respect, because it made -- at least for me -- posting
something similar to a drug. You either stop completely
or you don't stop at all.
I have not been able to achieve any kind of broad public
recognition of my discoveries about nature, including
astrology, except maybe marginally influencing a handful
of people. In the end, influence on others (except maybe
in the general sense of providing opportunities) is also
not what I desire, which is probably the main reason why
I fail to do so.
Compared to the energy that I have invested into usenet
-- which has consumed almost all of my spare time during
these almost two years, even though it has "only" been
about 350 posts -- and in addition to writing the original
discoveries document and the freeware astrology program
Delphi for PalmOS devices since March 2000, the public
recognition has been almost nonexistant so far, so it is
time for me to stop now.
I will do something else and simply have faith that things
will turn out well in the end. Maybe some younger people
will discover some of my posts while googling usenet or
maybe things will evolve through other paths. I am quite
confident -- and, of course, this will appear exaggerated
now -- that people will still read some of the things that
I posted a few hundred years from now, some even longer.
So will be the posts surrounding them, at least some.
(In "Anima Mundi" by Charles Harvey (CPA Press, Vol. 19),
Charles Harvey notes that there has not been a situation
where Uranus was in Aquarius at a sextile to Pluto in
Sagittarius since 500 BC, which was a time in which much
was developed that is still an important foundation of
many things today. I don't know if that might constitute
a "reason" for my style that reconnects quite a bit to
ancient philosophy, or if it is maybe just a reflection
of something else or of nothing at all...)
I will deactivate the e-mail addresses that I used for
posting in the near future (to get rid of spam). If you
want to reach me in the future, please go to my website
below, where I will provide a new e-mail address.
Discoveries:
http://www.exactphilososphy.net
Philosophical approach to astrological part:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
Delphi and astrolib - popular PalmOS astrology program
plus a very basic open-source astronomical library:
http://jove.prohosting.com/~delphi29
There is one more post that I wrote this morning and
would like to post here until Saturday. After that,
no more posts for me except for direct replies to my
recent three posts.
Please let me end it this time.
Bye!
[As promised yesterday, my last post; it is a bit pushy,
written before my recent two posts, which makes it maybe
a little bit unfair and rebellious (moon in Aquarius).
Beyond the individual signature, the post maybe hints also
at what is to be exepected collectively during the next few
years with the to be expected discoveries of quite a few more
objects/planets -- Neptune in Aquarius (boundless progess),
Uranus in Pisces (need for increased flexibilty when dealing
with quick changes on the collective level), and Pluto in
Sagittarius (reconsideration of beliefs).]
[crossposted with explicit permission by original poster]
In article <c39vnl$ai6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> to alt.astrology.tropical,
"Pete" <me@myname999999.fleaswerve.co.aq> wrote:
: Is it just me, or does anyone else believe that if we start to include
: this object in the astrological pantheon then we might as well throw the
: doors wide open and include the tens of thousands of other, similar
: objects in the 'Inner Oort Cloud'?
: The 'Inner Oort Cloud' is a band of icy debris that orbits the Sun from
: a distance of about 3 times the distance of Pluto, which itself sits in
: the middle of the Kuiper Belt ~ another band of icy debris orbiting
: beyond the orbit of Neptune, and which includes objects like 'Varuna'
: and 'Quaoor' (sp. )
: 'Sedna' takes 10,500 years to orbit the Sun whereas Pluto takes a 'mere'
: 248 years, so this should give us an image of just how far out 'Sedna'
: actually is, and by extension, just how miniscule it's daily motion
: through the zodiac is.
: In my opinion, if we as astrologers are going to start pouring over an
: ephemeris for 'Sedna' to see whether or not we have it conjunct the Sun
: or trining Mercury, then we need to have our heads examined! It's not
: that I'm against the inclusion of other 'planetoids, per se. but let's
: get real about it: what possible *personal* influence can an object have
: that stays on the same degree of the zodiac for a couple of decades? If,
: currently, 'Sedna' is transiting in conjunction with say, my Venus, then
: it's probably been sitting there for pretty near 20 years, and therefore
: my first response would be: "err, so what?"
: Does anyone else have any views on this?
: --
: Pete
Essentially I agree. (Technically, Sedna is moving relatively
quickly at the moment, because its orbit is strongly elliptical
and it is at the moment almost at its closest point to the sun,
so that it moved at least through Aries and half of Taurus
during the 20th century; but that does not remedy the general
issue of the prospect of lots of objects to be discovered in
the near future in the Kuiper Belt and beyond, of which most
will be quite slow or even extremely slow).
From my point of view, it will be crucial whether Kuiper Belt
objects of the same size as Pluto or bigger will be discovered.
If yes (and at least two), that would -- in my opinion -- mean
that what people project into the astrological meanings of a
planet (and astrological Pluto has certainly had an important
influence on the collective during the 20th and early 21st
century) is significant -- more significant than the relative
size and closeness of objects orbiting the sun. In other words,
human culture itself would play an important part in defining
the significance of astrology for human culture.
As a scientist, I would welcome that. It would probably remove
the barriers somewhat that astrologers have when it comes to
recognizing the need and advantages of exact quantitative models
of astrology. Without a clearly confirmed phenomenological model
of astrology, astrology will never be widely recognized and
astrologers will continue to be on the edge of society as far
as conscious public recognition is concerned.
I am aware that maybe in the end, the freedom of human beings
on earth (individually or collectively) will turn out to be
again smaller than what I wrote above would indicate, but in
order to make some concrete progress, I consider it better to
be more pragmatic for the moment: If astrologers and scientists
don't meet somewhere in the middle and find a phenomenological
model that is quantitatively verifiable and hence will convince
almost everybody on this planet that astrology is not just some
Hocus Pocus, but at least a collective psychological reality
with deep implications and possibilities for everybody, then
astrology and science will remain separated forever.
Interesting that the people who are now steadily discovering
new objects started their project in autumn 2001, i.e. after
the first Saturn-Pluto opposition and found the first object
(Quaoar) after the third and last opposition for this time.
Is the pace of time (Saturn) winning against Pluto? Did Pluto
only have a transitory influence during about a century and is
now making room for a somewhat more stable (aquarian) world?
The discoverers of Sedna make an interesting proposition for
the definition of a planet (namely a planet is an object that
carries the majority of the mass of all objects in a similar
orbit): http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/sedna/
(Note that by their definition, Pluto would already today not
be considered a planet.)
And: Please Usenet! Please do not simply ignore the first four
paragraphs of my reply, because they are the crucial ones for
the future. The rest is certainly interesting for the *craft*
of astrology, for adding some insights in the usual way, but
what is needed in the future -- in my opinion -- is a *science*
of astrology... (terms taken from Robert Hand's probably
well-known essay "Towards a Science of Astrology").
Alain Stalder
me:
: And: Please Usenet! Please do not simply ignore the first four
: paragraphs of my reply, because they are the crucial ones for
: the future. The rest is certainly interesting for the *craft*
: of astrology, for adding some insights in the usual way, but
: what is needed in the future -- in my opinion -- is a *science*
: of astrology... (terms taken from Robert Hand's probably
: well-known essay "Towards a Science of Astrology").
Science typically starts by making hypotheses and then
testing them experimentally.
Suppose a model of astrology is experimentally confirmed
that describes meanings of star signs and of the planets
in them essentially independently from each other. In
that case, the passage of a new object/planet through
only a handful of signs might already allow to say quite
a few things about which kind of influence it has.
Basically, regarding the influence of planets/objects on
our lifes here on earth, I would start by trying to find
a distinction between about the following 4 hypotheses:
a) Planets influence only significantly after they have
been observed and consciously recognized as planets
and this has been made public.
b) Planets influence us already after a single individual
has seen it and recognized the motion or even if the
collective unconscious has concluded from different
observations by individuals, who just saw a spot in
the sky at some time, that the spot is moving, hence
is likely a planet.
c) Planets influence us already as soon as any animal or
plant on earth, any living organism, has seen it, resp.
as above, as soon as a few animals have seen a spot in
the sky that can collectively by all living organisms
on earth be recognized to be moving.
d) Planets influence us independently of what we know or
think about them.
Some examples of how further reasoning would be:
Galileo saw Neptune more than one time in 1612 and 1613
when it was conjunct Jupiter and Galileo was observing
Jupiter and its moons. I have seen a sketch from Galileo's
notebook where the spot corresponding to Neptune is noted.
This has been discovered in 1979 by James Kowal, astronomer
and discoverer of Chiron, and by Stillman Drake, apparently
a well-known biographer of Galileo. They published what they
found out apparently in Scientific American and Nature in
1980, just google using "Galileo", "Neptune", "Jupiter" and
the last names of the two guys above. I am not aware of a
precovery of Uranus by Galileo, but cannot exclude it.
Some animals have much better eyes than we do. I would be
astonished if an owl or an eagle would not be able to see
Uranus without a telescope (Uranus is not far from being
bright enough to be seen by people without a telescope,
I even read somewhere that it can be seen by some people
with good eyes under ideal circumstances).
If one had a quantitatively verfied model of astrology,
it would be possible to tell the hypotheses apart simply
by determining since when planets/objects have influence
on our lifes. That would then give clues to distinguish
between the above hypotheses.
It is not unlikely that in reality things will turn out
to be more complex than what I wrote above, but as soon
as you, so to speak, have "a foot in", as soon as you have
a quantitative model, there are usually always some paths
that lead on to refined hypotheses and models.
me:
: RM: We have a strange phenomena in astrology whereby very few of us
: are on the same wave-length or interested in the same topics to any
: great extent, so your experience would be fairly common.
: We don't even have enough people gathered in one place at one time who
: simply want to read horoscopes for clients more accurately. We have at
: least 20 main themes that I've noticed -- things like lecturing,
: writing, chart reading, scientific research, computer programming,
: empire building, ego feeding etc.
:
: They are all ok, but it reduces the chances of collaborating
: considerably.
:
: We even have the strange phenomena whereby a great newsgroup like
: aamod never actually grows much, even though it should have. I don't
: know why it's like this, but I suspect that many people who ~could~
: stay in our group are discouraged as they gradually begin to see that
: astrology is not as easy or precise as it first appears. This becomes
: apparent to many newcomers because of the unrestricted communication
: system we have which prevents the exaggeration of astrological claims
: and the absence of guru figures who, in other environments manage to
: keep an audience by preventing disagreement.
As usual, I see no way to argue with you on a fundamental level.
Let me just add that in history it appears that significant,
non-evolutionary, progress almost always comes out of just
one or very few individuals. I don't mean to say that it is
literally them who do all the work and that their collective
background has no influence, it is rather so that these people
are able or fated (also by their abilities) to modulate the
collective influences and grow something new out of it, that
will in turn later feed the collective again.
Just one example of the individual-collective interaction:
I asked Alan Williams a question in a different thread. He
did not reply directly, which is perfectly OK for me. But
maybe his later post about Mozart sort of indirectly also
has some information for me, namely Mozart had the sun (and
the northern node) in opposition to Neptune, while I have
currently transiting Neptune almost exactly opposite my
natal sun. That is roughly how I try to read the signs.
See also Charles Harvey's article about sun-Neptune cycles:
http://www.astrology-world.com/articles/harvey.html
From all myths that I read, the one that fits me best,
in my opinion, is the one of Hermes and Apollon - see
Homeric Hymns.
It is almost spring now, Mercury (Hermes) is aready in
Aries, the impulse of Mars is up, just like a young fire,
the archetypal image for Aries, is going up into the
air towards a better future. I am, of course, well aware
that this newsgroup has the sun in Scorpio, the other
sign associated with Mars, but in autumn the drive is
down towards deeper issues, just like a river, the
archetypal image of the middle water sign, Scorpio, is
moving down. Both are necessary, but please understand
that I did not feel like picking up the several clues
that would have lead down.
According to google, this is post #364 by me. Just one
to go...
Mimi Wings99:
: >Subject: Bye Everybody
: >From: Alain StaIder astalder@exactphilosophy.net
: >
:
: You are without a doubt the most fantastic astrological writer I have ever had
: the pleasure of reading. Thank you for all your time, effort and insights.
:
: Mimi ^v^
:)
Hi everybody,
I have just published 50 articles about astrology,
philosophy, physics, and more on my web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/
Here is the table of contents:
Introductions (to "A few new discoveries in physics")
052 Very brief Description for Scientists
055 The Need for specific Experiments
075 Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
142 Step by Step
158 Virtual Particles
177 Schritt fr Schritt [german/deutsch]
Physics
108 Quantum Mechanics and Relativity
110 Does the Brain think Quantum Mechanically?
120 Measurement in Science I
121 Measurement in Science II
125 Gedankenexperiment: Schrodinger's Cat, EPR and Decoherence
128 Decoherence and the Role of the Observer
Astrology
078 Motivation in Psychological Astrology
082 Counselor vs. Scientist
088 Does Sagittarius come short on the Internet?
095 Axes and Opposites
103 Astrological Ages I
104 Astrological Ages II
113 Scorpio and the Fates
161 Hexagram: As above, so below
174 Geographie und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
216 Hermes and Five
226 Themes and Experiment
228 Moon Nodes as Gates
236 Close Encounters
244 Opportunity in Greek Mythology
246 Usenet and Experiment
338 Angles and Elements
347 William James Sidis: Life and "Time Reversal"
348 Dry and Wet Law Systems
351 Archaic House Numbering
362 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects I
363 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects II
Philosophy
087 Opposites
114 Experts
123 Philosophy and Science
202 Knowledge and Perception
317 The East and Transformation
337 Aristotle's Elements per Season and Yin-Yang
345 Lost in Translation I - Random Meetings
354 The Music is between the Nodes
356 Lost in Translation II - TOE
Interdisciplinary
069 Twilight Zone
071 Meta Experiment
122 Crystal Clear
165 Butterfly Dream
178 The Art of Association
224 wei-chi
234 Quaoar and Physics
323 4 Gravitation
324 The Science of Association
334 Physik und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
--
Anybody still reading?
The articles are simply extracts from my usenet posts
during the recent two years, extracted very quickly
this weekend while the moon was in Sagittarius. They
are relatively square and a lot of deeper issues that
have been touched by my posts and other people remain
shielded, except if people who read them dare to look
into the original posts -- that is also how it should
be. Thanks again everybody for contributing to these
articles in any imaginable way!
Wondering why I'm apparently posting again? I don't;
this year's a leap year, so my posts end with post
number 366 not 365 ;) -- "Hermes" (Alain Stalder)
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Poseidon (the Greek equivalent of Neptune) had a
son called Agenor (with Libya) who had five sons
and a sister, called Europe..
Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 58b+c:
: Zeus, falling in love with Europe sent Hermes to drive Agenor's
: cattle down to the seashore at Tyre, where she and her companion
: used to walk. He himself joined the herd, disguised as a snow-
: white bull with great dewlaps and small, gem-like horns, between
: which ran a single black streak. Europe was struck by his beauty
: and, on finding him gentle as a lamb, mastered her fear and
: began to play with him, putting flowers in his mouth and hanging
: garlands on his horns; in the end, she climbed upon his shoulders,
: and let him amble down with her to the edge of the sea. Suddenly
: he swam away, while she looked back in terror at the receding
: shore; one of her hands clung to his right horn, the other still
: held a flower-basket.
: Wading ashore near Cretan Gortyna, Zeus became an eagle and
: ravished Europe in a willow-thicket beside a spring; or, some say,
: under an evergreen plane-tree. She bore him three sons: Minos,
: Rhadamanthys, and Sarpedon.
Tonite a midnite, shortly after Mercury went direct
and with the sun conjunct the northern node in Taurus,
several Eastern European States joined the EU, Europe.
Yesterday evening, I somewhat accidentally ended up in
a Czech movie from the year 2000 called "Otesanek" by
Jan Svankmajer (born 4th September 1934 with a Cancer
asendent, according to his web site). The surrealist
movie is based on a fairy tale: The husband of a couple
who cannot have children accidentally digs up the root
of a tree that looks a bit like a baby and gives it as
a present to his wife. To cut things very short, she
adopts the baby and it comes to life through that love,
grows quickly bigger and hungrier and, in the fairy
tale, eats his parents and then a number of people and
their animals, until the Otesanek meats an old woman
who he wants to eat, but she uses a garden tool to
wound his belly and all the animals and people he had
eaten crawl out again...
Instead of a detailed analysis, just a few hints:
Neptune - Poseideon - Taurus (Artisan, Bull, Crete, Minos)
Neptune in Aquarius, a dream of universal unification;
what happens when everything has apparently been fused
together ? - the things that are equal become invisible
and the remaining differences become ever more apparent
old woman (twice) - Pisces
Sedna was at today's spot of the n.node in autumn 1989...
Contrary to the fairy tale, the surrealist movie leaves
the end open...
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Poseidon (the Greek equivalent of Neptune) once tried
to conquer land and thrust his trident into the acropolis
at Athens, where a well of sea-water emerged.
Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 16c+d:
: Later, during the reign of Cerops, Athene came and took possession
: in a gentler manner, by planting the first olive-tree beside the well.
: [Zeus] ordered them to submit the dispute to arbitration before a
: divine court [...]. Zeus himself expressed no opinion, but while all
: the other gods supported Poseidon, all the goddesses supported Athene.
: Thus by a majority of one, the court ruled that Athene had the better
: right to the land, because she had given it the better gift.
: Greatly vexed, Poseidon sent huge waves to flood the Thriasian Plain,
: where Athene's city of Athenae stood, whereupon she took up her abode
: in Athens instead, and called that too after herself. However, to
: appease Poseidon's wrath, the women of Athens were deprived of their
: vote, and the men were forbidden to bear their mother's names as
: hitherto.
Instead of a detailed analysis, just a few hints:
In a projection of the zodiac onto Greece, with Delphi
at the center, Athens is in the section of Virgo:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
(Athena sprang from the head (mind,Mercury) of Zeus).
In the charts of both the USA and Islam (the Hegira),
Neptune (Poseidon) is in Virgo...
Both appear not very successful in making permanent
conquests of land, and yet achieve some changes...
The waves of the ocean form the shape of the land by
repeatedly, periodically flooding the beach and then
retreating again...
Athens is the city with the world's first democracy...
Note also Zeus' witty architecture of the court ruling
that spared him to express his mind (Athene) directly.
The nodes and Sedna:
Sedna's myth is from the arctic. The arctic is near
Earth's N pole. Earth has a N and a S pole that are
always on opposite sides of Earth. Similarly, there
are two nodes, N and S, that are always opposite
each other in a chart.
Short: Sedna - poles (N/S,opposite) - nodes
The nodes and The Age of Leo:
In a zodiac that starts with Leo, the starting point
is where Cancer and Leo meet. Cancer is ruled by the
moon and Leo by the sun. Similarly, the lunar nodes
are the points where the path of the sun and the path
of the moon intersect, meet. The same relation exists
also for the transition point from Cancer to Leo in
a contemporary astrological chart, as well as for the
transition point from Capricorn to Aquarius
Short: Age of Leo - Cancer/Leo - moon/sun - nodes
The nodes and Ascendent/Descendent:
AC and DC are the points where day meets night. The
day is associated with the sun (obviously) and the
night is associated with the moon, because then the
moon is usually most prominently visible. Moreover,
AC and DC are always in opposition in a chart.
Short: AC/DC - day/night - sun/moon - nodes
The nodes and magnetism:
A magnet has two poles, N and S, on opposite sides.
Short: Magnet - poles (N/S,opposite) - nodes
Interestingly, all magnets found so far in nature
have a N and a S pole; there are up to date, no
single magnetic poles, not "Magnetic Monopoles".
In other words, if you have a magnet in your hands
with, say, the S pole to your left and the N pole
to your right and break it into two pieces, you
don't get a S pole in your left hand and a N pole
in your right hand, but instead two magnets with
their own pair of S and N poles.
Paul Dirac, Nobel Prize winning physicist and born
1902-08-08 (8-nodes, leo-nodes, 8x8-...) discovered
an interesting thing about Magnetic Monopoles: If
ever only a single Magnetic Monopole was found in
nature, then all electrical charges and all magnetic
charges would have to be quantized, would come in
integer multiples of a fundamental electrical resp.
magnetic charge.
(In detail: e m = n (hbar c)/2, where e is the minimal
electrical charge, m is the minimal magnetic charge,
n is an integer 0,1,2,3,..., hbar is Planck's quantum
of action, and c is the speed of light. If e was the
charge of the electron, then the minimal magnetic charge
m would be 137/2 e, i.e. quite big. If the minimal
electrical charge was smaller than the charge of the
electron, the minimal magnetic charge would be even
bigger.)
Interestingly, all electrical charges in nature appear
to come in multiples of the charge of the electron,
and, yet, not magnetic monopole has ever been found...
What follows is simply a number of observations and
ideas; hopefully without blunt errors and also with
as little bias as possible. No attempt has been made
to make the picture complete...
a) Hades/Pluto does not know what is going on in the
upper world, except when people get so angry that
they stomp their feet onto the ground.
b) Pluto is certainly very thorough and effective, but
he can also be a bit too blunt, greedy and biased.
c) The USA has Pluto at the end of Capricorn (presently,
Chiron is transiting Pluto; in a few years, Pluto
himself will make his first return).
d) Maintaining some structure in a country that has so
many immigrants from so many different places with
sometimes opposing opinions is a difficult task.
e) When one comes as a tourist to the USA, one notices,
of course, that one is quite free to go anywhere and
to do many things. But what comes as a surprise to
visitors sometimes, is that when there are rules, there
is very little tolerance when they are not observed.
f) Capricorn is the old earth sign, the last one in
a transition fire-earth-water, composed mainly of the
roots of a tree that give it structure through all
seasons and feed it with water and the minerals
dissolved in it.
e) For a modern industrialized country, the equivalent
of water for a tree, is arguably oil, because oil
is an important energy source and the base material
for the chemical industry, including all drugs and
plastics. (There is certainly also a link to Neptune
here, but let me focus on the plutonic aspects here,
or else just stomp on the floor really strongly :)
f) An example for, at least apparent, greed: After the
invasion into Iraq, great care was taken to protect
the oil fields, but nobody protected the museums.
g) A Swiss critic complained that Mel Gibson's Passion
of the Christ focussed on suffering and death and
neglected what he (the critic) considered the main
message, the later resurrection of the spirit.
h) Capricorn is a lot about earth and about hierarchical
structures (like the roots). But the "guy" on top of the
world's most archetypal hierarchy, the catholic church
(no, not the Pope), has no body, is pure spirit...
i) Pluto, through his thoroughness, has a tendency to
look too much down to earth and not enough up into
the air.
j) New ideas have a difficult time making it in the USA.
Nobody listens to you, except if you have achieved
(Capricorn) to get a lobby (power) that supports your
ideas. On the other hand, what makes it, has sort of
been tested already quite a bit.
k) Justice comes to some degree about by the two-party
system: If one side tries to cheat, they have to be
really good at it, else the other side will use it
against them. Changing any part of the system that
is to the advantage of both parties, however, is
not easy (e.g. rising campaign donations).
Three additional observations, not directly related:
l) The idea to identify the two parties with Jupiter and
Saturn appears to have originated here at aat. I am not
sure if the following has been mentioned in that context,
so just in case: In the chart of Christopher Columbus'
discovery of America, Jupiter and Saturn are opposite
each other, with Jupiter in Leo (sounds to me quite a
bit like "we don't need the UN or an international
court; we can do all that a lot better ourselves"),
and Saturn in Aquarius.
m) In Star Trek, Captain Kirk usually listens to the advice
of two people, Mr. Spock and Dr. McCoy. McCoy is often
very emotional, bases his judgment on his gut feeling,
while Mr. Spock is entirely rational, bases his advice
on logical consequences of the known facts. Both decide
quite quickly, while Kirk, although he can decide very
quickly, if necessary, usually takes some time to find
a creative solution that takes both sides into account.
n) I see McCoy as the USA's sun in Cancer, Spock as the
moon in Aquarius, and Kirk, the hero, as the north node
in Leo that has to integrate sun and moon into the best
thing to do in a given situation.
o) That is also how, in my view and experience, the typical
US president has been, a man that would usually appear
to be at rest in himself and carefully weighing options
based on different criteria, but also always able to
move and act when necessary.
p) The candidates in the 2000 election presented in my view
a bit of a split. One of them, with the sun in Cancer
conjunct the sun of the USA has certainly the heart where
the country is, but at least in public appears not to be
the most fluent speaker (air) without some preparation.
The other candidate appeared to be more intellectual, but
at the same time not very well able to express feelings.
q) Maybe that split is related to the fact that Quaoar has
appeared right behind the moon in the Sibley chart of the
USA (Sagittarius rising).
Back to the ground. Capricorn is certainly also about
reality. I would not be happy if I got to the gas station
tomorrow and the guy there would tell me "Sorry Pal,
we're out of gas. But we've got lots of spirit..." ;)
Switzerland has a (retrograde) Pluto in Aquarius and the
northern node also in Leo.
In condensed form:
me, see: space, in/out
pictures change: time, rest/move
fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
want, pictures change differently: 5th element
Long version:
Let me start with a similar text that I wrote in 1993,
which was actually at the root of my journey into
philosophy, psychology, astrology, etc.
me, conscious
see
changes: time
more than one thing,
something else than me: space
want: pictures change
Kant discovered (or argued, if you prefer) that space
and time are the most fundamental things, the only things
that exist "a priori". Both are necessary for thinking.
The idea is to imagine that one opens one's eyes for the
first time and sees...
One thing that one notices, is that what one sees changes.
That is time.
In addition, there is more than one thing that can be
seen, and there is the conscious "I" that observes and
the pictures that are seen. That is space (anything that
separates two "things").
Without space and time, thinking is not possible.
Finally, one notices also that, depending on how one wants
what one sees to change, things will change differently
(Schopenhauer), although not necessarily in the way one
would like to. That is (free) will.
Now, that was where I was standing in 1993, simply putting
what Kant and Schopenhauer had discovered about 200 years
earlier into condensed form.
More than 10 years later, last Wednesday (2004-05-18) the
situation was a bit different: Saturn is in Cancer and
Chiron in Capricorn, which has, in my observation, the
effect that one is forced to reduce the "home" zone, to
retract a bit to an inner core and start to grow new things,
especially relations, gently from there, while avoiding
some of the old relations because they needed to be
removed (Chiron's healing). Luckily, Jupiter in Virgo is
helpful for growing new structures, even repeatedly.
[As is visible in the message ID and the X-Trace header,
X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1085003077 213.3.74.99 (19 May 2004 23:44:37 +0200)
the post was made Wed 19 May 2004, about 15 minutes before
midnight (alt.astrology.tropical was a moderated newsgroup),
while 18 May 2004 was not a Wednesday but a Tuesday, so not
absolutely sure which day the disovery was made.
I am almost sure it was not the same day as posting and not
two days earlier, so it would have been a day before posting,
which would have been Tuesday 18 May 2004. I think I had the
idea rather not early in the morning or in the evening, but
that is not certain. Astrologically most striking is maybe
the conjunction of 1969 Alain and Sedna, possibly joined by
the moon, close to my n.node resp. opposite to my Neptune,
or maybe simply Mercury in the 3rd degree of Taurus, where
the moon is exalted and where there is also Kant's sun, or
the Pluto-Lilith opposition, or maybe the "cradle" aspect
figure (by the Hubers in Adliswil) helped to give birth...
Below a basic chart for noon of that day without houses.]
[Sun 30 April 2023: Would I have written "last Wednesday"
if it had been a day before or the same day as posting?
If not, then maybe the date would have been a week before
posting, Wed 12 May 2004? Sun at my n.node, Moon close to
Uranus and both near pi's Venus and Saturn, maybe? Maybe...
Would conversely be a bit unusual that I would have waited
a whole week, but I remember that it was during or around
my holidays (at home) that year, so maybe more relaxed?
Or simply took the time to ponder things a bit more before
publishing, as also unlikely that someone else would dream
this up in the few days between?
Cool to be for once sort of part in the making of a mystery,
instead of chasing ones, might speak for the importance of
the discovery... Mystery would be rather Pisces...]
Brief, I managed to connect a few things that I learned
in the meantime in a potentially very promising way.
Aristotle had the four elements composed of dry/wet and
hot/cold. During my newsgroup posts, I discovered a few
different ways of looking at this composition. One of
them is that in/out can be identified with wet/dry.
Many things, especially organic ones, are wetter inside
than outside. What is measured in science, is what can
be seen and touched (fire and earth), while quantum
mechanics uses logic (air) to describe what happens in
the world by a wave function (water).
If you link that to the fundamental link between space
and subject/object or in/out, you have linked one of the
two opposites that define the four elements directly to
space and thus to a primary necessity for thinking.
Now, with that working, I tried to get time in, in the
same way. Hot/cold does not do, but recently, I had
discovered here (also with some help by DJ) that the
opposite rest/move can also be used to describe one of
the two necessary pairs of opposites to describe the
four elements. Fire moves up, air rests (actively),
water flows down, earth rests again.
So the observation that some things that one sees move,
is nothing else than the discovery of the opposite
rest/move, which is practically equivalent to the
discovery that there is time, the other thing that is
fundamentally needed for thinking.
So, to get things across as clearly as possible: From
the basic experiences in/out and rest/move, one gets
space and time and can *define* the four elements:
fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
Now, where's the clue?
Well, that was already the clue. It is an almost formal
reasoning that leads to the existence of four elements.
In other words, if the reasoning is correct, then the
fact that there are the four elements, in the way that
Aristotle and others postulated them, is not just a
cultural thing, but a property of *nature*, i.e. it is
physics, not "just" philosophy, psychology, astrology.
Of course, a lot will depend on whether that concept
can actually grow, whether it will be possible to
derive more of the properties of the four elements
and maybe even star signs, or the I Ching, etc. and,
of course, link that to quantitative experiments.
For the moment, at least the 5th element fits nicely:
The observation that, depending on how one wants
what one sees to change, things change differently,
defines (free) will, a concept separate of the four
elements that can be called/defined "5th element".
Again, the approach is different, a concept that is
common in astrology or maybe also psychology, has been
defined as something quite fundamental and necessary
for thinking and living.
Finally, note that Neptune is transiting in opposition
to my sun, so maybe things will stay at that and the
rest will remain an illusion, or do so for the moment.
The nodes and Lilith:
Lilith is the second (empty) focal point of the
ellipse of the lunar orbit. That makes Lilith an
imaginary twin of earth: A ray of light emitted
either at earth or at Lilith and then reflected
anywhere from the moons orbit, ends up at the
other of the two spots. Since the moon makes the
reflection and twins can always also be seen as
different sides of one thing, Lilith is also an
imaginary, dark side of the moon.
The lunar nodes need three things to be defined:
Sun, moon and earth. (The orbit of earth around
the sun and the orbit of the moon around earth
intersect at the axis of the nodes). Lilith, in
contrast, only needs moon and earth, so she lacks
the sun, lacks light. Hence her attribute "dark".
Application: Islam (and the USA)
In the chart for the Hegira where Mohammed fled from
Mecca to Medina in September 622, Pluto is at about
21 degrees Aries and Lilith is closely behind.
The star sign that fits best with Lilith's attributes
"earth" and "moon" is Virgo. In Greek mythology, the
virgin Persephone was abducted by Hades (Pluto). This
got her in the end a "part-time job" as Proserpina,
queen of the underworld, and wife of Hades.
In a conjunction, the planet that is ahead in the
zodiac, is the leader, while the trailing planets
have the task to support the leader. In Saudi Arabia,
where Mecca and Medina are situated, women usually
are completely veiled in black and have to walk a
few steps behind the men, like their shadows.
Many paths lead from here... Instead, let me simply
mention that the USA has Chiron at 17 Aries, which
might imply a potential to heal some of the complex
conflicts that arise (Aries) from the Lilith/Pluto
conjunction. In that sense, space aliens situated
far away from the sun, might really interpret 9/11
as a 911 call by Islam to heal some of its wounds.
The nodes and Invisibility:
Lilith is not often in charts. That is the immediate
reason why that dark object is often overlooked. More
deeply, her mercurial duality makes her unaware of her
own plans and intentions for this to remain so and
focussed more on being vexed that she never comes to
the light. In the light, Persephone is a beautiful
woman who collects flowers, but in the underworld,
she is the queen.
(Side track: The Dutch connection. The Netherlands is famous in
the world for its flowers. This post would not be, had I not seen
a recent post by Christine at aam about Lilith in connection with
recent events. She posts from a Dutch e-mail address. My arguments
last autumn at aam, around the time that Sedna had been discovered,
but not yet announced in public, culminated in a thread started by
Christine related to Lilith. Melanie Reinhart, who has written
books about the nodes and angles and about Chiron, was born in
South Africa, which was both an English and a Dutch colony. The
political system of Apartheid tried to split society into two,
a white and and a black society living together and yet separate.
In the recent movie "Monster", Charlize Theron, model and actress
from South Africa, shows a darker side of herself. In a chart for
the Netherlands for 26 July 1581, Lilith is conjunct the Uranus-
Neptune conjunction of the Hegira around 8 Virgo, while the
northern node is conjunct the USA's Pluto and presently Chiron.)
(Side track 2: My own underworld-only success is certainly also
related to the fact that I have Uranus and Pluto in Virgo, as
well as maybe to my Lilith in Pisces at a quincunx to my sun.)
Nothing is as invisible as the obvious.
I looked at the charts between USA and the Hegira many
times and looked at many connections, even at Islam's
Neptune node conjunct the USA's Pluto and now Chiron.
But what about the obvious, synthetic aspect: The USA
and Islam both have the northern node around 5 Leo!
(Europe's path out of the darkness of the Middle Ages
was spurred by Arab influence, which also lead to the
discovery of new continents. Columbus sailed under the
Spanish flag, a country that was at that time partly
inhabited by Arabs and has the northern node also in
Leo. British passports display the axis Leo-Aquarius.
So, who is entitled to some fruits of the USA ? Which
countries felt they had a duty in Iraq ?)
Screw analysis. Look at the nodes only. Revolution!
Uranus in Pisces...
One more: My parents both have Neptune in Virgo, as well
as the 3 most prominent people in the US administration
besides the president, and also Christine (I hope it is
permitted to mention that, as not to "suppress" Lilith
once more ;). They share the same illusions and dreams
that do the USA and Islam. As I mentioned before, my
parents even immigrated into the USA in the 60s. They
did not stay and, in fact, did not visit the USA again
until maybe 10 years ago or so. But the dreams remain.
Interesting link about some roots of Islam (Bob Trubshaw,
"The Black Stone - The Omphalos of the Goddess"):
http://www.geocities.com/mabcosmic/articles/bstone.html
Sedna's Fingers - Tao Te
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Liz Greene has Jupiter at 26 Libra* (actally in
conjunction with my Quaoar, but that is maybe not
relevant in this context), so she does make many
statements that are deep insights, but are not
fully resolved and often contain a superficial
error mixed with the deeper insight.
*http://www.astrodata.ch/astroheute/BerPer/BP92.htm
Poseidon is like Sedna, he has no grip on reality
and can only use the things that slip through the
fingers of other people or the things that others
are afraid or disgusted to touch to create some
beautiful things out of them.
Thus analysis of anything Neptunian, usually only
reveals unpleasant things to say the least. Enjoy
the sausage, but don't ask how it is made.
[two examples cut (Mengele, Penguins)].
The Tao Te Ching is in 81 parts. That is 9x9, the
number of Neptune. The selection of my usenet posts
actually contains (by luck) 52 articles, not 50:
http://www.nomad.mcmail.com/tao/docs/taote.htm
Here is a my meager attempt at some wisdom, colored
by the events during the previous few years:
: Average people compromise,
: stupid and wise people polarize;
: the wise know when to stop...
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Astrology is mainly analytical and, yet, has so
far fallen through the grid (the fingers) of the
exact sciences.
Any chart drawing gives an incomplete picture.
There would always have been additonal techniques
and/or objects that would have shed more light
onto the person or whatever the chart was for.
Some of them might have even been the best way
of looking at things in a given circumstance.
The client's "choice" of an astrologer determines
thus already quite a bit of the resulting analysis.
There are people who consider astrology "merely"
a form of divination, like the I Ching etc.
But is there really that much of a difference ?
Aren't planets and dice etc. all part of nature,
all part of the same physical laws ? Hence aren't
they maybe just different points of view at the
same matrix ? Not unlikely, although for anybody
aware of quantum mechanics, a simple yes would
probably not do...
Anyway, the Virgo/Neptune symbolism that is part
of astrology (unless this is again an illusion)
makes it quite evident why astrology has a hard
time making itself heard in the public, also for
reasons recently mentioned with regard to Lilith.
As far as the reality of astrology is concerned,
proving some parts of it would be just a matter
of genuine intention to do so and some hard work.
Technically, there is no fundamental problem to
do that, although quite some things will again
slip through the then refined fingers of science.
And, of course, the consequences for society are
something that should be a matter of concern.
(end of series)
The nodes and Delphi
When I first heard the story how Zeus determined
the place of Delphi, by letting two eagles fly,
I imagined Zeus letting them fly from one point
on the earth's globe and flying to it's antipode.
I did not understand it the way that it is actually
usually told, with Zeus simultaneously (!) letting
two eagles fly from opposite sides of the earth's
flat disk to it's center...
The word "Delphi" means the female sex, there was
an Omphalos at Delphi and Apollon took over the
place from Gaia (in mythology and in reality),
which links back, of course, to Lilith etc.
Short: Delphi - antipodes - nodes
The nodes and Quantum Field Theory
Virtual particles, with "speeds" larger that the
speed of light, are a direct consequence of the
special theory of relativity and quantum mechanics.
A virtual particle is never observed directly, but
is created at a time t0 and position x1 and later
annihilated at time t1 and position x2 such that no
signal of light would have be fast enough to connect
the two points: (x2-x1)/(t1-t0) > c.
Now, it is an interesting property of the special
theory of relativity that anything that appears to
have flown with a "speed" a larger than the one of
light, from A to B, can look the other way round
for another observer that moves relative to the
first observer; he/she sees a creation at B at an
earlier time and an annihilation later at A. There
are even observers for which the creation of the
particle and its annihilation are taking place at
exactly the same time.
Now, if the virtual particle has a charge, say it
is an electron, then a virtual electron flying from
A to B looks like a virtual particle of the same
kind, but with opposite charge, flying from B to A.
I am sure, there are quite a few more interesting
things to be discovered by associating nodes and
quantum field theory...
(sorry, end of series too)
Christine (about Lilith's glyph):
: From a symbolic point of view the left-curved crescent glyph is the
: overturned (upside down) and reverse of Saturn's glyph... the right-curved
: crescent moon beneath the cross of matter. This seems to say a lot about the
: equal strength of one's inner and outer realities.
While the moon curved the other way above earth's cross is...
Jupiter!
:)
(By the way, Hermes' glyph combines moon/sun/earth - nodes!)
Christine:
: Doesn't the right-curved crescent moon of Jupiter rest on the left side
: horizontal bar rather than at the top of the vertical bar of the cross of
: matter (Earth)? Makes it look like an olde-worlde written 4.
Yes, the olde and wise man, Zeus, can break the cycles,
the number 4 is about 6/7 different from the previous
cycle (pi is 3.14159...) than the previous 3 numbers.
The rest is rather a public announcement:
The bicycle has fallen; the USA has given the French a
call, their brothers in the American/European modern
revolutions. For all appearances, the virtual world war
of the previous years seems to come to an end. If all
major wars of the 21st century will be like that, fought
mainly as tensions and ruptures in the collective psyche
(or should I say "thought" instead of "fought"?), with
less people dying in it than starve on a single day on
earth, then that can be called progress, especially when
compared to world war two...
Of course, it is not yet time to lean back, but for all
I can see, what is immediately ahead is a lot easier to
forsee and plan than what lies immediately behind.
Collective planets in transit tendencially serve rather
the collective, the public and harm the individual. The
reverse can be said about the first half of the zodiac,
starting somewhere in Pisces, where the individual does
become more important than the collective, ending during
Virgo, with some ruptures that signify calls by the
collective. Then again, the individual depends quite a
bit on feedback from the collective and there is also a
price tag attached to individual happiness. As a very
extreme example, Hitler, who had the sun in Taurus, was
maybe one of the happiest people during world war two.
So, as far as I am concerned, the days and nights in
front of a computer screen, growing older and somewhat
fatter have been worth it. It does not matter, though,
whether the things I discovered, will be connected to
my name in the future; they will be picked up in some
form, even if reinvented by somebody else. What is an
idea anyway? The things that popped up in my head in
recent weeks about the relationship of Lilith, Neptune,
Islam and the USA etc. seemed to me more like some kind
of "press release" by the collective unconscious with
me being one of its speakers.
That does not exclude future public contributions by me,
but no more in the form of "war-time" ad hoc contributions,
but only in form of solid (saturnian) work, based on logic
and reality -- i.e. contributions to exact science. Note
that this does not exclude contributions to astrology, but
only in form of objectively undeniable evidence.
Maybe the quintile of the moon to the northern node
reveals something. It connects the moon to Jupiter,
which is almost exactly trine the northern node.
I guess you are aware that the moment of the chart
was during the Venus transit through the solar disk,
almost in the middle of it, just a little after the
moment where Venus was most deeply "inside" the sun.
That relates to the motives of the querent (Leo/sun)
and maybe even sums up the question: A look back at
previous acts of love (retrograde Venus), with the
potential fathers (sun).
I have not checked, but I think to have heard on TV
that Cook's discovery of Australia was related to the
aim to observe a previous Venus-sun transit and took
place after the transit. So maybe further curiosity by
the querent in this matter (also since sun and Venus
are in Gemini), would also reveal something new. What
I don't see, however, is whether what might be found
would be nice or helpful. Are there any hints about
that in the chart ?
alain
Pete wrote:
: Hi :)
: yesterday a friend sent me a text message asking for a horary. She
: wanted to know if her ex-partner is the father of her baby. I'm wary of
: the Saturnine nature of the 7th house ( astrologer -me ), with Neptune
: on the cusp, and so with that in mind, I thought I'd seek the help of
: you fine people in unravelling the message of the chart.
:
: Here's the data for it:
:
: "Is X the baby's father?"
: June 8th 2004
: 09.53 am
: West Kirby, England.
: 53N22' 03W10
:
: Asc: Leo 16* 59'
: Moon: Aquarius 29* 33'
:
: The querent: Leo/Sun
: The child: Sagittarius/Jupiter. (Moon?)
: The partner: Aquarius/Saturn. Neptune.
:
: The first thing that struck me was the void-of-course Moon in the 7th,
: suggesting that this business shall not go "handsomely forward",
: according to Lilly. Is the Moon the natural significator of babies, and
: if so, does its position in the 7th constitute "emplacement"? Ergo: 'The
: baby belongs to the partner'?.
: But wait ~ should I be looking for some connection via reception between
: either the sig of the 5th or the Moon, and Saturn? If so it would have
: to be a strong one and yes ~ there it is: the Moon and Saturn are in
: Mutual Reception: that's almost as good as a blood-tie, imo, *if* we can
: take the Moon as the baby. Can we? There is no reception between Saturn,
: lord of 7th, and Jupiter, lord of 5th, which appears to suggest no
: connection, but they were in aspect by sextile last month. However, that
: isn't what I'm looking for; I'm looking for a common thread, such as the
: one between Saturn and the Moon. Everything hinges on allowing the Moon
: for the baby. ( By Regio' house system, the Moon has dignity by face at
: the 5th cusp ).
:
: Any thoughts on this one?
: Cheers...
:
: -%-
: Pete
: "In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God"
Pete wrote:
: "alain" <alain@wei.chi> wrote in message
: news:alain-51E8E9.23240310062004@news.bluewin.ch...
:
: > Maybe the quintile of the moon to the northern node
: > reveals something. It connects the moon to Jupiter,
: > which is almost exactly trine the northern node.
Maybe I can hinge my post on the double paradox of the
Irishman and God:
Paradox 1: If Irisman A finds his equal in God and
Irishman B finds his equal in God, then coventional
logic would say that thus Irishman A is equal to
Irishman B -- not so if you ask Irisman A or B!
Paradox 2: Irishmen are catholic; so they are not
allowed to speak to God directly. The command chain
is God - Pope - Cardinal - ... - Irishman. So, in
order to speak to God, the Irishman has to become a
protestant for a second!
Is the father Saturn or Jupiter ? Do things remain
in the cycle (Saturn kills his father and his later
himself killed by his son, Jupiter) or is the cycle
broken (Jupiter) ?
I am no expert on horary astrology, I am not even an
astrologer/counselor in the ususal sense. But usually
when experts get stuck there are two possibilities:
Maybe they overlooked something they would normally
not miss - in that case I cannnot be of much help,
because I lack the specific knowledge - or there is
really no solution *within* the system the expert
operates in, a solution can only be found by looking
outside of the system for a moment* - in other words,
the Irishman has to talk to God (Jove/Jupiter) for
a second.
I have no idea whether it is helpful to consider, say,
Quintiles in horary astrology, but I noticed that you
mentioned Saturn a lot in both posts (and I guess
there are technical reasons for that), but Jupiter
clearly less, which seems odd considering that they
are both mythologically fathers. And both have to do
with time (horary), Saturn as the regular cylces and
Jupiter as the unexpected, the specific moment.
Your call what (if anything) to with this... :)
alain
--
* This is a fact in any system that is strictly logical,
like mathematics or parts of it. This was discovered by
Goedel in the 20th century and first came as quite a
shock to other scientists, but is now fully accepted.
For example, "Projective Geometry" can be formulated in
the plane alone or by projecting something from 3d space
onto a plane. On that plane, there are three parallel
lines and a point such that the distance between one of
the lines and the point is equal to the distance between
the two other lines, e.g.:
x (point)
---------------------- (line 1)
---------------------- (line 2)
---------------------- (line 3)
This is true in both formulations (2d and 3d), but can
only be proven in the 3d formulation, not in 2d alone.
People are emotionally connected. It appears that natural
events (earthquakes, dice, etc.) are part of the same picture,
which suggests that there is a uniform, physical reason
behind all of it, possibly according to my hypotheses.
What will count in the end is whether what I wrote will
be confirmed or not. I guess quite a few things will be.
Writing a popular book about my stuff without a scientific basis
is not to my taste. Proving that people are emotionally connected
seems very difficult, while proving that astrology fits with
how people behave seems possible, but very much detailed work.
Both require in addition to overcome huge collective resistance.
Small pieces of exact philosophy, general mathematical insights
into reading the world's signs are a lot more easy to prove, to
convince people of, and also quite useful for many people and
thus suitable as a hobby for me with maybe in 10 years or so
a beautiful popular, and yet exact, book.
So, stay at the root, don't follow the white rabbits.
wei-chi
I:I :I:
Pete wrote:
[...]
: > Is the father Saturn or Jupiter ? Do things remain
: > in the cycle (Saturn kills his father and his later
: > himself killed by his son, Jupiter) or is the cycle
: > broken (Jupiter) ?
:
: In this horary the (ex) partner is shown by the 7th house and its ruler,
: ie: Saturn. The question involves trying to discover if this man was the
: father of the querent's child. The child is shown by Jupiter
: specifically in this case, it being the ruler of the 5th house.
OK, this time I think I got it; (not easy for me to
think around the Mercury-Mercury quincunx, especially
with both of them nearly stationary, which appears to
lead to quite a high "thoughts per word" ratio...).
To make sure, those are the links (right?):
ex partner - partner - 7th house - Aquarius - Saturn
child - 5th house - Sagittarius - Jupiter
: > I am no expert on horary astrology, I am not even an
: > astrologer/counselor in the ususal sense. But usually
: > when experts get stuck there are two possibilities:
: > Maybe they overlooked something they would normally
: > not miss - in that case I cannnot be of much help,
: > because I lack the specific knowledge - or there is
: > really no solution *within* the system the expert
: > operates in, a solution can only be found by looking
: > outside of the system for a moment* - in other words,
: > the Irishman has to talk to God (Jove/Jupiter) for
: > a second.
:
: When I first examined this chart, I was looking specifically for a
: connection, a link ( actually a *mutual* link) between Saturn ~ 'Mr X' ~
: and Jupiter ~ ruler of the 5th house and therefore the child. What I
: found is that Saturn in Cancer is in the sign of Jupiter's exaltation
: and therefore the partner ~ 'Mr X' ~ "exalts" the child.
: However Jupiter is in none of the dignities of Saturn, which had me
: scratching my head. Recently however, it dawned on me that Jupiter in
: Virgo is in the triplicity, terms and face of Venus, who in her turn is
: in the triplicity of Saturn and in the 11th house of "partner's
: children".
: So ~ in a roundabout kind of way there *is* a mutual link between
: Jupiter and Saturn, albeit a convoluted one, which I suppose one would
: expect when there is no clear-cut recognition of the identity of the
: father.
OK, I think I got that too (without knowing myself what
triplicity, terms and face are, but, of course, I could
look that up easily; maybe I should mention that I had
the nerve to reply to your question about a horary after
only a few hours reading into the very basics of the art;
I hope you don't mind too much :), I remember that Eddie
Harris, a jazz musician, once said during a concert that
"it is not difficult to play many instruments, you just
have to have nerve").
: > I have no idea whether it is helpful to consider, say,
: > Quintiles in horary astrology, but I noticed that you
: > mentioned Saturn a lot in both posts (and I guess
: > there are technical reasons for that), but Jupiter
: > clearly less, which seems odd considering that they
: > are both mythologically fathers. And both have to do
: > with time (horary), Saturn as the regular cylces and
: > Jupiter as the unexpected, the specific moment.
:
: Because of Saturn's natural rulership over the concept of age and
: authority, I suppose it is easier to see his connection with "older
: males" and therefore, possibly, fatherhood. Jupiter's link in this
: respect is a little more tenuous, I think.
I agree concerning age and authority. But, aren't these
two things of little importance in the question of this
horary ? Isn't the question merely about who provided
the seed ? And there I see maybe even a stronger link
to Jupiter, who is probably the figure who begets most
women in Greek mythology.
(That was more a side remark; I have not forgotten that
in this horary "ex partner" leads to Saturn).
: In this horary Saturn forms a mutual reception with the Moon ( "all
: manner of women", according to William Lilly ), showing the mutual link
: between 'Mr X' and the querent. ( The Moon co-rules the querent ). As I
: said above, Saturn exalts Jupiter and now we find that Jupiter can
: "reach" Saturn, but only through the aegis of Venus ~ love ~ which sits
: here in the very heart of the Sun, the querent herself.
:
: > Your call what (if anything) to with this... :)
:
: Well, it's certainly a test, but it's also a fascinating horary to work
: on! :)
Sure! Thanks. :)
alain
I wrote:
: Pete wrote:
[...]
: : Because of Saturn's natural rulership over the concept of age and
: : authority, I suppose it is easier to see his connection with "older
: : males" and therefore, possibly, fatherhood. Jupiter's link in this
: : respect is a little more tenuous, I think.
:
: I agree concerning age and authority. [...]
Ruminating a bit more about the complex dual nature of
Saturn lead me to Oedipus and Freud (incl. "Totem and
Taboo") and finally to Freud's birth chart, which has
quite an interesting connection to the horary chart:
Freud's moon is at 14*40', which is quite close to the
node of Venus, which must have been roughly at 15*25'
in the year of his birth:
http://hyperlinks1.homestead.com/planetarynodes2.html
and which is, of course, where Venus and sun were at the
time of the horary (Venus transit in front of the sun).
So, I guess the symbols of the moment lead to also to
Saturn in this way. Anyway, I can see the advantages of
traditional approaches to astrology, even though they
may lack some psychological depth and be incomplete,
but they compensate quite well for that by being more
terse and specific, which makes them also interesting
for scientific approaches to astrology.
Thanks again (with Saturn in Pisces, it takes usually
a bit longer for me to gain clarity...)
alain
I noticed that during the previous few months, the
color "green" appeared more than usual in my life,
e.g. Irish, Islam (all green), even "Liz Greene"
as the reason for a few posts about Neptune. Since
I have 4 planets in the 12th house, I tried to find
associations between "green" and where planets are
or were since early this year. Here are the results,
which seem quite a bit more compelling than expected...
Green - [Indian Vedic astrology (Google)] - Mercury
Green - [2004 is Chinese year of] - Green (Wood) Monkey [started 4 Feb]
Monkey - [according to Lilly] - Mercury
Chiron - [discovered in] - 1977 - [rise of] - Green Parties
Green Parties - recycling - [mythology of] - Chiron
Chiron - [son of] - Saturn
Chiron - [orbit between] - Saturn/Uranus - 7th/8th planet - 7/8
7 - [last planet] - death, limitation of life
8 - [my guess] - beyond death, reincarnation, recycling ( - nodes)
Chiron - [meaning of word] - hand - [Western astrology] - Gemini - Mercury
hand - 5 fingers - 5 - ["my" planet numbering] - Mercury
Chiron - [glyph looks like] - key - [carried by Roman god] - Janus
Janus - January - [sun in] - Capricorn/Aquarius - Saturn
Janus - [guardian/negociator of gates with key/stick] - Mercury
hand - fingers - [meaning of word] - Dactyles
Dactyles - [cut off fingers of hand of] - Saturn
Green - [commonly] - envy/jealousy - Mercury
So there are quite a few links from "green" to Mercury
and to Saturn. Looking at the planets that are or were
recently in signs ruled by these planets, one finds
quite a few:
- Mercury - Gemini - sun/Mercury/Venus/Mars/Lilith
(including also the focus on Venus' node in Gemini by
the recent transit of Venus in front of the sun)
- Mercury - Virgo - Jupiter
- Saturn - Capricorn - Chiron
- Saturn - Aquarius - Neptune
Anything else ?
Any more associations, anything important or maybe just
fun that I overlooked, any errors, anything that seems
too far stretched, etc. ?
Appetizer:
What I did above, was get from the word "green" to the
current positions of planets in the sky. In principle,
if one had a broad enough knowledge of associations like
the ones above, one could also have looked earlier this
year at where planets would be this spring and found out
that the color "green" would be big this season!
Moreover, if such a broad matrix of associations had been
entered into a computer, even a computer might have been
able to find that "green attractor"; simply by searching
for words that have both many and short associative
connections to current planetary positions...
Comment on recent collective events:
Since Chiron's orbit touches both Saturn's orbit and the
orbit of Uranus, Chiron could be seen as a messenger
between the astrology before and beyond the discovery
of Uranus (or thus even as a messenger between the Ages
of Pisces and Aquarius). Currently Chiron is placed in
Capricorn (- Saturn - last planet in "old" astrology).
This fits maybe well with the current collective crisis
regarding the increased discovery of new objects of at
least almost the size of Pluto. Of course, for the daily
work of an astrologer, there is no crisis (what worked
yesterday will continue to work tomorrow and next year).
But, psychologically, the discrepancy between Pluto's
certainly prominent effect on individual and collective
fates, and the astronomically clearly weakened position
as a planet, makes one doubt whether the influence of
Pluto is maybe more due to collective beliefs about it
than to an actual natural connection between what the
object does in space and our fates on earth. Very hard
to judge as long as things are evolving, but some kind
of negotiation between traditional astrology and all of
what has been included afterwards (partially maybe a bit
too quickly and eager for progress) is maybe necessary.
By the way, the title of this post, "Mean Greens", is a
piece of music by Eddie Harris. He was born 1936-10-20.
alain
--
"Ever try. Ever fail. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."
(Samuel Beckett; me: I've got the moon in Aries :)
- dauhng wrote:
: Maybe it has to do with my progressed Sun and Mercury having gone into
: Aries just last year, and my progressed Moon being in Sagittarius,
: another Fire sign, but at age 47 I've gotten interested in golf where
: trying to get on the putting GREENS in regulation is important. Back in
: my progressed Sun in Pisces days (consisting of a 30-year period) golf
: really didn't interest me much at all.
:
: Neon green has always been my favorite color and is said to represent
: vitality in the astral body. I also really like green vegetables like
: spinach, parsley, sprouts. artichokes, avacados and lima beans a lot,
: and think green wheatgrass juice with all its high clorophyl content is
: about the best thing there is to drink.
:
: I'm also a big believer that the green hemp plant could do much to
: benefit the planet and should be legalized, and for political reasons is
: in part why it remains perpetually repressed.
:
: http://www.thehempnut.com
:
: The end of hemp ignorance and the laws against it would be more of a
: convincing sign to me that the Age of Aquarius really is about to dawn.
There is a brief scene in the movie "Lost in Translation"
where Bill Murray plays golf: Above the green grass and
green trees, is mount Fuji, and it actually looks as if
he would try to hole right into the top of the volcano.
I have tried to connect many things to green lately, but
without any clear result. About an hour ago, however, I
discovered in Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate" that
the Roman name of the Greek god Hephaistos is Vulcan.
Hephaistos is the lame smith husband of Aphrodite-Venus,
thus green-volcano-Vulcan-Venus-Taurus(/Libra).
Nothing is as invisible as the obvious:
The northern node is currently in Taurus.
Thus, taking the northern node, as it is often done, as
a synthetic view of the whole chart/time, of course,
one would expect a few more greens than usual...
A few more assocations:
Star Trek's Mr. Spock is from planet Vulcan, and he has
green blood, because it is based on Copper (-Venus),
unlike Human blood that is based on Iron which turns
red and not green when it oxidizes to transport Oxygen
from lungs to muscles.
Not so many artificial things are painted green, maybe
from fear of nature's jealousy. Exceptions are military
and hunters, for mimicry, and also not too astonishing
considering that Aphrodited is often also assiciated
with war (including causing the Trojan one). Sedna was
discovered in Taurus and has been called "the reddest
thing in the solar system since Mars".
Aphrodite was born from foam on top of ocean waves, in
some versions, in addition where Cronos-Saturn threw
Uranus' genitals into the sea, reminding of Freud's
term Penis-envy.
Uranus and the sea connects surely also to the current
placement of Uranus in Pisces. It is certainly not so
that all the other planetary motions are miraculously
connected to the lunar nodes, but it appears as if
the collective psyche currently picks out the myths
and associations from the planets and their current
signs that fit best with Taurus.
One more:
In the 1960's the first russian probe to Venus tried
to descend to the Venus surface. While it sank down,
temperature and pressure started to rise, until the
probe stopped working. (At the surface of Venus it
is several hundred degrees Celsius hot at a pressure
of also several hundred atmospheres). This apparently
inspired polish writer Stanislaw Lem to write his
most famous SciFi novel "Solaris" about a planet that
is covered by an apparently intelligent ocean, and
also about the failed human attempts to analyze it or
even only "to make contact" with it. Lem has the sun
in Virgo, so the novel is certainly a very detailed
description of the axis Virgo-Pisces.
In December, a probe will descend to Saturn's largest
moon Titan (which is actually larger than Mercury).
The moon Titan, with its unusual collective name (not
the name of a particular god, as usual) is covered by
clouds, but recent radar experiments done from earth
suggest that it may be covered by an ocean of Methane
(CH4) or Ethane (C2H6); liquid because the temperature
is very low on Titan. Any chance to find life there ?
(life-live-love-Venus ?) ;)
And another one:
Anybody looked at the charts of Freud and Jung and their
discoveries regarding the unconscious in relation to
where Sedna is now or was then ? I did that quickly a
few months ago and it looked interesting...
alain
In article <G8KMc.344$n81.108@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
"Larry Swain" <astropshrink-aat@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Richard Nolle" <nospam@spamfree.com> wrote in message
> news:41015E70.C438192E@spamfree.com...
> > DJ wrote:
> >
> > > Here's an interesting link:
> > > http://www.analemma.de/english/analem.html
> > >
> > > =====
> > > ~DJ
> >
> > Thanks, DJ - that's a great find!
> >
> >
> > -- Richard
>
> I agree. Thanks, DJ!
>
> Larry
I agree, too. :)
Sun (1) plus photos in regular time intervals (Saturn,7) = 8 !
Interesting also that the first attempt to make a photo dates
to 1977 (according to the link above), i.e. the year when
Chiron was discovered. Disco!
Hestia is an almost invisible greek goddess. The first-born
of Cronos-Saturn and Rhea, she was also the first one that
Cronos swallowed and the last to be released from him. It
appears that the greeks gave the first offering to the gods
usually to Hestia (and seemingly sometimes also the last one).
There is very little mythology around Hestia, she does not
take part in the quarrels of gods or humans. Robert Graves,
in the introduction to "The Greek Myths", written probably
around 1955, relates her to the "Great Goddess" that was
quite homogeneously present across neolithic Europe:
: Ancient Europe had no gods. The Great Goddess was regarded as immortal,
: changeless, and omnipotent; and the concept of fatherhood had not been
: introduced into religious thought. [...] Men feared, adored, and obeyed
: the matriarch; the hearth which she tended in a cave or hut being their
: earliest earliest social centre, and motherhood their prime mystery.
: Not only the moon, but [...] the sun, were the goddess's celestial
: symbols. In earlier Greek myth, however, the sun yields precedence to
: the moon.
Hestia is the goddess of the hearth, which Graves relates to
Delphi's omphalos, which "may originally have represented
the raised white mound of tightly-packed ash, enclosing live
charcoal, which is the easiest way to preserve water without
smoke".
The discovery/invention of fire was certainly the first and
thus most impressive change in humanity's history. It comes
natural that fire was associated with the sun, and judging
from the name "hearth", it appears also the heart (which is
today associated with sun/Leo), the only organ *inside* the
human body that moves...
This suggests that the oldest roots of Leo are female and
related to nature, which is the first and the last thing
that time (Cronos-Saturn) created, like Hestia.
Leo can often be found in beautiful places "just around the
corner", that almost everybody usually overlooks. Respecting
that, I will only give one concrete example, namely the Lion
of Iulis, a large lion sculpted out of the rock on an island
very close to Athens, but difficult to find, because normal
ferries starting from Piraeus do not go there (or at least
did not until recently), you have to take a different path.
[photo]
This suggests the lion to be an ancient guardian of nature
and time, who does not protect using fortresses or heavy
weapons, but by architecture, by knowing and circumventing
the conventions of current times.
The Holy Grail, associated with Leo since at least Jung,
comes to mind. Parsifal does not see the castle until a
fisherman shows it to him. The grail is not invisible, it
is always there, only people normally do not see it.
Except Zeus, who got to overlook everything from the sky,
several gods got leadership over previously female realms:
Hades got the underworld, Poseidon got the sea, which he
apparently never was fully happy with, and Apollon took
over at Delphi from Rhea and Python.
Hestia symbolizes the female core that man can never reach,
expressed in mythology by the wish of Apollon and Poseidon
to marry Hestia, which she refused and apparently caused
her to swear (while touching Zeus' forehead), to remain a
virgin forever. At one instance, drunken Priapus tried to
rape her when she was asleep, but an ass warned her, she
awoke, screamed and Priapus run away in terror.
Nature does not need man in the sense of humanity for her
fertility. Trees grow every year independently of humanity's
wars and troubles.
Currently, I have Neptune (Poseidon) almost opposite my
natal sun in Leo (-Apollon). So, what is it that both of
these opponents desire? I guess it is Hestia, it is nature
in its core. I remember Martin Lewicki on aam quoting Rob
Hand with "Neptune is ultimate reality" (compared to Saturn
which is not). Sun and Neptune are interested in ultimate
answers.
One of the things I did recently, was to contemplate thought
experiments in quantum mechanics, with photons (particles of
light, i.e. sun). The wave function which carries both the
secrets of the world and symbolizes the human view of it, is
represented by the greek letter Psi, i.e. Poseidon-Neptune.
One poster at aat once called my posts "esoteric", which I did
not like, because I am not at all a fan of the "esoteric
movement", but after looking up the inner meaning of the word,
"for the initiated", I could see how this emerges. Abstractly,
it is again an architectural protection of a grail. Anybody
who cares for the same fundamental questions as I do, will be
able to read what I wrote, most others, more bound be the
contemporary conventions and interests will see nothing. That
cannot generally be called the fault of the others, nor mine,
it is a function of time. There is a right time for everything
to become visible, and directing what becomes visible when, is
very important for keeping the world both prosperous and stable.
Take my discoveries: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
The title of the main document is "A few new discoveries in
physics". I loose the attention of most scientifically minded
people already there, since the document clearly is not only
about physics in the contemporary sense, but also about such
impossible subjects (for contemporary science) as astrology,
psychology, history, philosophy, all in one document. If they
really cared about nature, they would probably know that the
word "physics" comes from "physis" which means essentially
nature, including her creative side.
If they proceed, they usually stumble over the first sentence
of the abstract: "People are emotionally connected", assuming
that this is an "esoteric" sentence, something that cannot be
tested experimentally. Quite to the contrary, that sentence is
quite straightforward: The side effects of feelings can very
well be measured by measuring electrical signals and chemical
changes in the brains of two people.
And the contents of the sentence is even more obvious. Please
allow me to use the most extreme example that I could find to
prove it. It is an extreme version of Schrodinger's thought
experiment where a cat is connected to a device that either
kills or does not kill the cat, depending on whether an atom
decays (which can be prepared to be a 50% chance). For all that
it appears in contemporary quantum physics, that assuming that
whether the cat is alive (or dead) before anybody opens the door
to the experimental chamber, leads to paradoxes or would at least
require connections that are faster than light, which would,
in turn, allow to send signals into the future. Now, put a mother
outside the experimental chamber and her only child into it and
connect it to the same mechanism as the cat. Now, who has the
nerve to come forward and claim that the mother would not feel
anything when something happens to her child? Even with perfect
acoustic and electrical insulation, I don't think it would be
possible that that the mother could feel nothing, no matter what
current limited knowledge of nature as expressed by contemporary
science might suggest...
Or take my simple model of the 12 signs of the zodiac. Isn't it
obvious once you heard it that the wound of the Grail's king
(Leo) or the one of Chiron (Sagittarius) are simply the wounds
of a fire that burns as the three fire signs pass through the
zodiac, simply because the wood=earth=body disappears through
the fire and is replaced by air=knowledge=eternity ? (Aries
almost unwounded, only angry, Leo wounded to some degree, and
Sagittarius wounded deadly, but already immortal).
Or water signs: Isn't it obvious that the three water signs are
ice-water-vapour or source-river-sea ? And isn't the internal
consistency, consistent with transformations between elements
in the philosophy of Aristotle (dry/wet, hot/cold), obvious once
you have seen it ? And the more than obvious consequences of
a world where people are emotionally connected ? etc.
But probably, once again, everybody reading this and not aware
of some fundamental questions and issues, will fail to understand
what I "babble" about (as one sceptic scientic reader once remarked
about the style in my main document). Of course, remembering my own
words above, I could do a better job to explain what I mean in
detail and providing a complete path to it, paired with colorfoul
illustrations and not assuming any particular knowledge or even
interest in the subject.
However, it does not feel to me like that time is already now.
In the legend, the castle simply disappears when young Parsifal
failed to ask for the purpose of the grail...
As a guardian of time and nature, apparently the old lion is
close to the nodes.
Alain Stalder
Forwarded from alt.astrology.tropical (by the author).
alain
--
[Google attractor: Alain Stalder Alain Stalder Alain Stalder
Alain Stalder Alain Stalder Alain Stalder Alain Stalder]
* From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: Hestia
* Date: 28 Jul 2004 14:25:01 GMT
Hestia is an almost invisible greek goddess. The first-born
of Cronos-Saturn and Rhea, she was also the first one that
Cronos swallowed and the last to be released from him. It
appears that the greeks gave the first offering to the gods
usually to Hestia (and seemingly sometimes also the last one).
There is very little mythology around Hestia, she does not
take part in the quarrels of gods or humans. Robert Graves,
in the introduction to "The Greek Myths", written probably
around 1955, relates her to the "Great Goddess" that was
quite homogeneously present across neolithic Europe:
: Ancient Europe had no gods. The Great Goddess was regarded as immortal,
: changeless, and omnipotent; and the concept of fatherhood had not been
: introduced into religious thought. [...] Men feared, adored, and obeyed
: the matriarch; the hearth which she tended in a cave or hut being their
: earliest earliest social centre, and motherhood their prime mystery.
: Not only the moon, but [...] the sun, were the goddess's celestial
: symbols. In earlier Greek myth, however, the sun yields precedence to
: the moon.
Hestia is the goddess of the hearth, which Graves relates to
Delphi's omphalos, which "may originally have represented
the raised white mound of tightly-packed ash, enclosing live
charcoal, which is the easiest way to preserve water without
smoke".
The discovery/invention of fire was certainly the first and
thus most impressive change in humanity's history. It comes
natural that fire was associated with the sun, and judging
from the name "hearth", it appears also the heart (which is
today associated with sun/Leo), the only organ *inside* the
human body that moves...
This suggests that the oldest roots of Leo are female and
related to nature, which is the first and the last thing
that time (Cronos-Saturn) created, like Hestia.
Leo can often be found in beautiful places "just around the
corner", that almost everybody usually overlooks. Respecting
that, I will only give one concrete example, namely the Lion
of Iulis, a large lion sculpted out of the rock on an island
very close to Athens, but difficult to find, because normal
ferries starting from Piraeus do not go there (or at least
did not until recently), you have to take a different path.
[photo]
This suggests the lion to be an ancient guardian of nature
and time, who does not protect using fortresses or heavy
weapons, but by architecture, by knowing and circumventing
the conventions of current times.
The Holy Grail, associated with Leo since at least Jung,
comes to mind. Parsifal does not see the castle until a
fisherman shows it to him. The grail is not invisible, it
is always there, only people normally do not see it.
Except Zeus, who got to overlook everything from the sky,
several gods got leadership over previously female realms:
Hades got the underworld, Poseidon got the sea, which he
apparently never was fully happy with, and Apollon took
over at Delphi from Rhea and Python.
Hestia symbolizes the female core that man can never reach,
expressed in mythology by the wish of Apollon and Poseidon
to marry Hestia, which she refused and apparently caused
her to swear (while touching Zeus' forehead), to remain a
virgin forever. At one instance, drunken Priapus tried to
rape her when she was asleep, but an ass warned her, she
awoke, screamed and Priapus run away in terror.
Nature does not need man in the sense of humanity for her
fertility. Trees grow every year independently of humanity's
wars and troubles.
Currently, I have Neptune (Poseidon) almost opposite my
natal sun in Leo (-Apollon). So, what is it that both of
these opponents desire? I guess it is Hestia, it is nature
in its core. I remember Martin Lewicki on aam quoting Rob
Hand with "Neptune is ultimate reality" (compared to Saturn
which is not). Sun and Neptune are interested in ultimate
answers.
One of the things I did recently, was to contemplate thought
experiments in quantum mechanics, with photons (particles of
light, i.e. sun). The wave function which carries both the
secrets of the world and symbolizes the human view of it, is
represented by the greek letter Psi, i.e. Poseidon-Neptune.
One poster at aat once called my posts "esoteric", which I did
not like, because I am not at all a fan of the "esoteric
movement", but after looking up the inner meaning of the word,
"for the initiated", I could see how this emerges. Abstractly,
it is again an architectural protection of a grail. Anybody
who cares for the same fundamental questions as I do, will be
able to read what I wrote, most others, more bound be the
contemporary conventions and interests will see nothing. That
cannot generally be called the fault of the others, nor mine,
it is a function of time. There is a right time for everything
to become visible, and directing what becomes visible when, is
very important for keeping the world both prosperous and stable.
Take my discoveries: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
The title of the main document is "A few new discoveries in
physics". I loose the attention of most scientifically minded
people already there, since the document clearly is not only
about physics in the contemporary sense, but also about such
impossible subjects (for contemporary science) as astrology,
psychology, history, philosophy, all in one document. If they
really cared about nature, they would probably know that the
word "physics" comes from "physis" which means essentially
nature, including her creative side.
If they proceed, they usually stumble over the first sentence
of the abstract: "People are emotionally connected", assuming
that this is an "esoteric" sentence, something that cannot be
tested experimentally. Quite to the contrary, that sentence is
quite straightforward: The side effects of feelings can very
well be measured by measuring electrical signals and chemical
changes in the brains of two people.
And the contents of the sentence is even more obvious. Please
allow me to use the most extreme example that I could find to
prove it. It is an extreme version of Schrodinger's thought
experiment where a cat is connected to a device that either
kills or does not kill the cat, depending on whether an atom
decays (which can be prepared to be a 50% chance). For all that
it appears in contemporary quantum physics, that assuming that
whether the cat is alive (or dead) before anybody opens the door
to the experimental chamber, leads to paradoxes or would at least
require connections that are faster than light, which would,
in turn, allow to send signals into the future. Now, put a mother
outside the experimental chamber and her only child into it and
connect it to the same mechanism as the cat. Now, who has the
nerve to come forward and claim that the mother would not feel
anything when something happens to her child? Even with perfect
acoustic and electrical insulation, I don't think it would be
possible that that the mother could feel nothing, no matter what
current limited knowledge of nature as expressed by contemporary
science might suggest...
Or take my simple model of the 12 signs of the zodiac. Isn't it
obvious once you heard it that the wound of the Grail's king
(Leo) or the one of Chiron (Sagittarius) are simply the wounds
of a fire that burns as the three fire signs pass through the
zodiac, simply because the wood=earth=body disappears through
the fire and is replaced by air=knowledge=eternity ? (Aries
almost unwounded, only angry, Leo wounded to some degree, and
Sagittarius wounded deadly, but already immortal).
Or water signs: Isn't it obvious that the three water signs are
ice-water-vapour or source-river-sea ? And isn't the internal
consistency, consistent with transformations between elements
in the philosophy of Aristotle (dry/wet, hot/cold), obvious once
you have seen it ? And the more than obvious consequences of
a world where people are emotionally connected ? etc.
But probably, once again, everybody reading this and not aware
of some fundamental questions and issues, will fail to understand
what I "babble" about (as one sceptic scientic reader once remarked
about the style in my main document). Of course, remembering my own
words above, I could do a better job to explain what I mean in
detail and providing a complete path to it, paired with colorfoul
illustrations and not assuming any particular knowledge or even
interest in the subject.
However, it does not feel to me like that time is already now.
In the legend, the castle simply disappears when young Parsifal
failed to ask for the purpose of the grail...
As a guardian of time and nature, apparently the old lion is
close to the nodes.
Alain Stalder
* 2004-08-31 20:01 Zurich, 18:01 UTC
"Wiggle your big toe"
-- The Bride (Uma Thurman) in the movie "Kill Bill",
while sitting in the back of a van, to her big toe,
part of her legs that are lame after 4 years of coma.
(Uranus in Pisces: Aquarius is the middle of winter,
nature is as dead as it can be; when the sun enters
Pisces, some faint signs of life start already to
re-emerge; Uranus (consciousness, no longer coma)
in Pisces (feet, and thus toes))
Hi everybody,
When I registered the domain name "exactphilosophy.net"
in March 2000, I did not have a precise idea of what
"exactphilosophy" could be, but the name did feel right,
especially for somebody like me with Saturn right at the
end of Pisces...
I would like to construct/synthesize some things in the
world in a precise manner that have not been accessible
to exact methods previously, including, of course, also
psychological phenomena and astrology.
The idea is to grow the definition of the five elements
that I gave in
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=hermes-D2B436.23443619052004%40news.bluewin.ch
namely
* in/out (space)
* rest/move (time)
* fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, water:=in+move, air:=in+rest
* free will: what transforms the elements into each other
into a model that makes very few assumptions (and states
them clearly) and still reproduces many properties of the
world.
I guess this must sound pretty abstract, so let me simply
try to make the first next step ("wiggle my big toe"):
* active/passive
inside effort (activity) is required to keep things at rest
outside things come macroscopically to rest in a closed system
In more detail:
It is no big deal to look at, say, a tree, for five minutes,
i.e. to keep the outside picture essentially at rest. But
inside the head, the same task is a lot more difficult, if
not impossible: Try to imagine a tree with closed eyes and
neither having the tree move or morph nor thinking about
something else for five minutes.
Thus inside, effort is necessary to keep things at rest.
Since air was defined as in+rest, air is active, whereas
water that was defined as in+move, is passive.
In the outside world, things are more complex. I do not
think that I understand things in that respect fully, so
here are simply some thoughts:
- solid non-living things like a pebble or a chair only
move if one actively makes them move and stop moving
relatively quickly if one does nothing.
- other things in nature seem to move indefinitely, like
a river and living things like animals apparently even
start to move on their own.
- microscopically, there is always some random motion of
the atoms, molecules etc., nothing ever rests.
- any closed system reaches "thermal equilibrium" after
some time, a state where no macroscopic motion is left,
only microscopic motion of a certain average speed,
which is equivalent to a constant temperature.
- (the planet earth has roughly a constant temperature,
but it is not in thermal equilibrium; it is the sun
that provides earth with order, because the radiation
from the sun is from a well-defined direction (the sun)
whereas the excessive heat is radiated from earth into
all directions)
- it is not sure if the universe is a closed system.
- for most people in most situations, maybe more "pixels"
of what is seen are at rest than in motion.
- what about sound and smells etc. ?
So, as a preliminary conclusion, air is active, water is
passive, and macroscopically in closed systems, earth is
passive (since defined as out+rest), and fire active.
Some very informal ideas, where one could go from here:
People are more active when there is more light (daytime)
and less active when it is dark. Thus active/passive is
maybe largely equivalent to
- light/dark
- day/night
- awake/sleep
- conscious/unconscious
- hot/cold (days warmer than nights)
- high/low (hot stuff rises)
- light/heavy (hot stuff rises)
- tall/short
- men/women (men taller, more active role in sex)
- ...
That yields already a lot of things, but it is only
identification, not actual synthesis yet. How can one,
say, define the property concrete/abstract of the axis
Aries/Libra from the elements and the opposites above?
In my model, where Aries is the first stage of a burning
fire, i.e. mainly earth (wood) and not much air yet,
and Libra is a cloud (air) that balances fire (lightning)
and water (rain); is it possible to define something
like "concrete" and "abstract" based on the mixture of
the four elements ? Difficult to say, but it feels like
it might be possible, although I do not know how to do
this concretely at the moment.
So, I intend to post whenever I feel that I have found
something substantial and new. Feel free to contribute
ideas and thoughts or only to read an react internally.
Thanks in advance in any case!
alain
DJ <doovinator@yahoo.com> wrote:
: Hi all--
: My wife asked me before we went to a meeting last week
: whether we should join a particular, well-established
: local group, knowing mercury was retrograde.
:
: Some may think, "merc retro", and that would be the
: end of it, but I thought we might as well check it
: out. If we did or didn't decide to join all we'd risk
: was $15 for the yearly dues anyway.
:
: We went, and had a lot of fun. We sat at a table next
: to someone who vaguely recognized my wife, and a
: half-hour or so later they realized they'd gone to
: college together, 18 years ago and about 150 miles
: from here. When I'd met her at the time, she said she
: was from Alberta, and since I like to ask about
: smaller places (which makes for more interesting
: conversation) I didn't ask about Calgary or Edmonton,
: but a town called Lethbridge. Guess where she grew
: up!?
:
: I also met a fellow who came from my area of the West,
: and we talked about school days and so on, so all in
: all it felt like a merc-retro sort of occasion, but in
: a very pleasant way.
:
: So, the end result is we're out $15, and we'll find
: out if this group is as fun as it looks. Any second
: opinions?
Hi DJ, never had the impression that retrograde Mercury
is a "bad thing", but maybe that is more true for me
with a (very slightly) retrograde Mercury. In Greek
mythology, Hermes did two things the day he was born:
In the morning he made the first lyre out of the shell
of a tortoise, after sunset, he stole 50 of Apollon's
cattle. Later Apollon traced Hermes down, took the
matter up to Zeus and in the end Apollon discovered
the lyre and happily traded the cattle for it. So he
turned from shepherd to artist, traded something real
and concrete for something more imaginary, but still
precious.
I interpret the making of the lyre with Mercury direct
and moving progressively ahead of the sun, so that
Mercury can do some things in the early morning before
the "eyes" of the sun can see it, while retrograde
Mercury lags more and more behind the sun until the
sun can no longer "see" what Mercury does after sunset.
So, I guess, one thing that could be identified with
a retrograde Mercury would be the "loss" of something
material including money in exchange for something of
more ideal (including maybe artistic) value.
But then again, maybe it is just the other way round,
or both, etc. :)
By the way, before the 2000 election I made a bet with
a friend who has the sun in Gemini (me in Leo), I bet on
the democratic candidate, he bet on the republican one.
Guess what, the price was a big American steak, and he
(Gemini-Hermes) got the "piece of cattle", while I
(Leo-sun) lost some money, but...
Actually, this time we made almost the same bet, with
one maybe important detail different: The price this
time is a movie ticket! (Neptune)
Do I have better chances to "win" the bet this time ?
alain
tarocchi7@yahoo.com (Huck) wrote:
: Tarot News (August) has this time its focus on mathematical
: relationships between Sepher Yetzirah, Greek mythology, I-Ching and
: Tarot. The mathematical relationship predates the development of
: astrological schemes in the Roman time:
:
:
: http://trionfi.com/0/n/
:
: see also
:
: http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/
: http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/hesiod/
: http://trionfi.com/001/olympic-game/
Thanks for the links, I found some interesting things there.
I am physicist from Switzerland and interested quite a bit
in similarities between Eastern and Western "symbolic
systems" like the I Ching and astrology. I do not know much
about Tarot, but I found some links between the I Ching and
the elements in Western astrology that might interest you:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-B99CA8.13415525012004%40news.bluewin.ch
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-3AB309.13402325012004%40news.bluewin.ch
or http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
and http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s337.html
Here is the essential idea:
I:I fire, light-giving, 2nd daughter -- resting fire
::I thunder, inciting/movement, 1st son -- moving fire
III heaven, strong, father -- resting air
II: wind/wood, penetrating, 1st daughter -- moving air
:II lake/mist, joyful, 3rd daughter -- resting water
:I: water, dangerous, 2nd son -- moving water
I:: mountain, resting, 3rd son -- resting earth
::: earth, devoted/yielding, mother -- moving earth
In other words, I try to link the 8 hexagrams to the four
elements, once in resting form and once in motion.
You mentioned at your first link that Uranus had 18 children.
I did not know this number, but the number of the most
prominent children of his son Cronos (Saturn) is six, 3 women
and 3 men (Hestia, Hera, Demeter, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus);
which might be linked to the 3 sons and 3 daugthers of heaven
and earth in the I Ching.
Maybe I can come up with a few more ideas after a closer look
at the links. Anyway, any link between Western and Eastern
systems has the potential to enrich the symbolism of both...
alain
DJ wrote:
: You say you have a stationary mercury (more or less)
: and I notice something that I feel with one of my
: sisters, who also has a stationary mercury. I never
: quite know what to add, in response to your posts.
: They stand alone very well, without need for further
: elaboration (besides, I don't know that much about
: mythology anyway).
Thanks!
alain
Let me start again with:
* in/out (space)
* rest/move (time)
* fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, water:=in+move, air:=in+move
"The problem is choice."
-- Neo to the Architect in the movie "The Matrix Reloaded"
Let me try once more:
The four elements change into each other. They do so
with and without my influence, but my conscious choices
have some effect on what transforms into what.
* fifth element:= what changes the four elements into each other
* free will:= my influence on it
The word "choice" implies not only consciousness, but
also "activity" of some sort, namely the conscious,
active choice when to be active and when passive.
Views in the West:
"active/passive" is associated with "male/female",
"day/night" and "conscious/unconscious". Therefore,
"free will" in the definition above (but not the
"fifth element") would be male.
Views in the East:
In the I Ching there are 8 hexagrams that seem to be
practically identical to the four Western (Greek)
elements, in resting and moving form:
I:I fire, light-giving, 2nd daughter -- resting fire
::I thunder, inciting/movement, 1st son -- moving fire
III heaven, strong, father -- resting air
II: wind/wood, penetrating, 1st daughter -- moving air
:II lake/mist, joyful, 3rd daughter -- resting water
:I: water, dangerous, 2nd son -- moving water
I:: mountain, resting, 3rd son -- resting earth
::: earth, devoted/yielding, mother -- moving earth
Link: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
It is interesting that, if one uses the identification
of rest with active if inside and of rest with passive
if outside, as I proposed in the previous post, that
this selects the male hexagrams (father and the three
sons) of the I Ching...
alain
PS: Quite a few things that were evoked by me and Esa
seem to be linked to the relation of Chiron and the
sun: Bride, jungle, meditation, life, balance, male
and female, earth, ...
Here are a few clues:
- mortal Peleus wrestling with immortal Thetis
(Chiron, free will, Anima, Leo, focus in meditation)
chapter 81 in Robert Graves (sun in Leo) book "The
Greek Myths", Penguin Books, combined edition, 1992
(clue: what are the two main differences in this myth
from all other "chase/transformation/rape" myths?)
- google for some or all of "sun" "earth" "life"
"entropy" "Schrodinger" "What is Life?"
(how the earth and living beings depend on being
able to export disorder into the environment, how
the sun is not only a source of energy, but also
of order, and why the two are inseparable)
- Kerry and 'Nam (jungle), his wife "straight from the
horse's mouth" (born in Mocambique, grew up in South
Africa, both close to the mouth of the horse's head
that Africa is, if looked at from the side; Chiron
is, of course, half horse)
- help for googlers: Cheiron, Kairon, Kairos
Larry Swain wrote:
: I was reading about the 8th house in Hindu astrology at bena.com and
: noticed this little tidbit, evidently a reference to taxes as a
: signification of the 8th and the state of the 8th in the USA chart. I
: thought it of particular interest at this political moment in time.
:
: "Thinking of American taxes:
:
: When government-funded NASA first started sending up astronauts, they
: quickly discovered that ball-point pens would not work in zero
: gravity. To combat this problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and
: $12 billion developing a pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down,
: underwater, on almost any surface including glass and at temperatures
: ranging from below freezing to over 300 C.
:
: The Russians used a pencil."
That made me interested in the history of the ball-point
pen. It appears that it goes back to a Patent by John J.
Loud from Weymouth, Massachusets, patented Oct 30, 1888.
The US Patent Office even has the scans of the three page
patent online:
http://www.uspto.gov
Menu on the left: Patents->Search->Patent Number Search
Search for patent no. 392,046
Besides the numerological reference to the number 8 (in
the year and in "October"), I noticed that on that date,
the northern node and Quaoar were almost exactly conjunct
at about 24 Cancer, a point which was transited (within
a degree) by Saturn when your initial post appeared.
And, of course, that is also where the USA's retrograde
Mercury is.
Having myself Jupiter in Cancer (at about 20 Cancer, and
followed within a degree by Venus and Mars), I tend rather
to value the creative force of the USA higher than the
costs in money it can entail, but there are certainly some
exaggerations and sometimes a lot complexity that does not
yield out much in the end. Or more bluntly, in case of
that school siege, the pencil approach was not something
to recommend. If I compare that to the way the french
handle the situation with of their two journalists, I
clearly prefer a more complex approach (they talk to all
kinds of people, muslim and non-muslim to try to resolve
the issue, and, of course, in the chart of the French
Revolution, there is again a retrograde Mercury at about
23 Cancer...)
Mr. Loyd did apparently not make any money or fame from
his invention, that seems to have rather been the fate
of people who came later with later patents.
The place he lived in, Massachusets, reminds me of
William James Sidis, the genius I wrote about last year
in autumn, who apparently also described the influence
of the native Americans on the emerging US culture in
the East when people settled. To me, when visiting the
USA, it has always been surprising how different the
feeling is there, despite the fact that visibly many
things are like in Europe. I guess that one component
of the melting pot USA is maybe underestimated, namely
the country and its history itself (again a Cancer theme)
and, of course, Quaoar is a native American...
Finally, Massachusets leads also back to the democratic
convention in Boston, and that "French" guy there. Which
side of the coin (Mercury) will it be this time ? Maybe
it is already time for the "good cop" (relative to muslims)
to step into the room ? I will be interested to see if
the French get their two journalists out unharmed despite
their law that prohibits wearing a headscarf in schools.
alain
Here is my next attempt:
* 'in'/'out' (space)
* 'rest'/'move' (time)
* 'fire':='out'+'move', 'earth':='out'+'rest', 'water:='in'+'move', 'air':='in'+'move'
* 'fifth element':= what changes the four elements into each other
* 'free will':= my influence on it
* 'fate':= its influence on me
I put all things that I defined between apostrophes ('),
in order to avoid confusion with the "real" things they
are supposed to model. Let me explain the difference:
A priori, 'fire' is only outside and moves, it has, so far,
none of the typical attributes of a real fire or of fire in
astrology, namely heat, light, movement up, quickness, etc.
Of course, the idea is to define 'fire' such that logical
deduction will yield such additional attributes, but that
will probably not work out with the first attempt (or the
first "matrix") but will take many iterations where things
will be redefined.
That is nothing else than usual exact science. Any theory in
physics is only correct until proven wrong by experiment.
After all, a scientific theory is an attempt to model reality
(earth in western astrological symbolism) with logic (air),
i.e. to describe something that is considered female (namely
the element earth) by something considered male (air).
That is also the story in "The Matrix" trilogy of movies; the
architect tries to create a balanced matrix, and the oracle
then tries to bring it off balance (according to her own words
in the movie). So, in essence, I am only trying to create an
increasingly more accurate model of the world, starting with
somewhat different "bricks" than other people before me, and
I am well aware that all the models will fail in some way,
in fact it will be precisely the failures that will lead to
deeper insights and improved models...
What use is such a model, if it will invariably be wrong ?
Well, I think it's twofold. First, with time it will not be
very much wrong for most practical purposes, so it will be
useful. Second, it will maybe provide some people (like
scientists) access to things that were beyond their reach
previously. For example, typical scientists cannot handle
imprecise definitions. Conversations with, say astrologers,
often fail already because the astrologer might use words
like "energy" or "power" in a different and, in some sense,
less precise way than the definitions that scientists are
used to (energy is force integrated over a path, power is
energy per time, etc.).
Things will still be difficult, since what I want to model is
at least what western astrology and eastern philosophies do,
which includes many things that are not currently part of
exact science, things like love, fate, death, religion, the
differences between men and women, politics, law, anything.
I guess to get scientists to dare to go there, is only
possible if definitions are clear and the rest is logical
consequences of the definitions, or at least makes a clear
distinction between strictly logical consequences and
additional choices (definitions) along the way. In fact,
I hope to represent different philosophical/astrological
systems simply as different choices about how to look a the
world, and I hope to do this with very little choices, say
maybe 5 or less, if possible.
Having said this, at the moment, I do not see through the
way west and east differ exactly, so just a few thoughts:
- in the east, the opposites seem to be less rigid than in
the west, seem to be more flowing (like in the yin/yang
symbol); so maybe the eastern view is wet in the sense
of the wet western elements water and air, while in the
west, things are dryer (earth and fire)
- since 'air' and 'water' are 'in' (please note that I am
now using apostrophes, i.e. I am trying to be more exact)
and things are often wetter inside than outside, one
could define 'wet'/'dry':= 'in'/'out'
- in the east, in and out seem maybe more exchangable, see
at least the butterfly dream of Taoist philosopher Chuang
Tzu, where he dreamt that he was a butterfly and, when he
awoke, he was not sure whether he had dreamt that he was a
butterfly or whether he was actually a butterfly who was
now dreaming that he was Chuang Tzu...
- traditionally, europe was west and asia east, so where is
america, east or west or both ?
- in the first Matrix movie, Neo is offered two pills by
Morpheus (god of dreams), a blue one and a red one, the
blue one will keep him in the matrix, the red one will
reveal the "real" world to him; like many things in the
USA, there is also a quite direct interpretation possible,
namely the choice (in 1998) between 4 more democratic years
(blue) or a republican president (red); this time around,
things have flipped, now the blue pill would represent a
change of party, "reality"
- since Gemini is quite prominent in the US chart and since
communism (which I link strongly to Aquarius, or at least
to his shadow, because it puts collective interests so
much above personal ones) was quite successful in the east,
I am tempted to try with america-gemini, europe-libra, and
asia-aquarius, as an initial working hypothesis
Next time, I hope to have a more specific next step and maybe
also some concrete fruits about western star signs, derived
from the model. So, might take little while...
alain
I have the moon in Aries in the 10th house (conjunct
my MC and quincunx all 3 big collective planets).
Hellboy, in the movie and the comics, is the good guy.
He files his corns "to fit in". Other parts of him are
an underwater guy, a girl called "Liz", like a large
percentage of people, who has some blue fire and can
explode, a young FBI agent John Myers, a foster father,
a guy who knows how to light a cigar, and he's not
afraid of any of the other characters either.
His two hands are different, the right one is almost
indestructible and is a chiral key that can open doors
to the underworld, but he only almost does so, making
the moon almost explode at some point. The left hand
is finer and gentler, at one point he uses it to hold
a box with two young cats while fighting some kind of
dog from the underworld. Chiron means "hand".
Part of the production was apparently in the Czech
Republic, leading to a "unbearable lightness of being"
approach to the darker side of the world, a Libra view
that sees the darkness, but somehow cannot really reach
it, which is both a gift and a curse...
He's fearless, like Aries who has the whole complexity
of the previous cycle in him, sort of a Piscean mother,
and a young child has practically nothing, so what is
there to loose ?
Dionysus defeated the Titans in Egypt and restored Amun's
reign there. Odysseus defeated the single-eyed cyclope
by piercing his one-eyedness and then escaping hidden
under a ram. However, he could not take his companions
back to Ithaca with him.
John Myers tells hellboy in the end that it is not how
you start things, but how you end then, that matters.
I can file my horns, but never fit in in lifetime. This
here is still how it really is, there is nothing of real
significance to add (at least before the next Sat-Plu
cycle): http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
"How big can it be?"
bye :)
--
* From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
* Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:00:13 +0200
* Message-ID: <astalder-4B7BF9.09001320062002@news.bluewin.ch>
Hi, this message is about a few new discoveries in physics,
which might interest you. The abstract is appended below,
the document itself can be obtained from:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Alain Stalder
--
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Astral Wildlife (HOOVA@petitmorte.net) wrote:
: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:52:54 -0500, "Sib Hashian's Afro"
: <sib@giantwhiteboyafro.com>,wrote:
:
: >
: >"Alain Stalder" <astalder@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: >news:astalder-64F212.07445924092004@news.bluewin.ch...
: >>I have the moon in Aries in the 10th house (conjunct
: >> my MC and quincunx all 3 big collective planets).
: >>
: >> Hellboy, in the movie and the comics, is the good guy.
: >> He files his corns "to fit in".
: >
: >He "files his corns"? Wow!
: >
:
: Horns
Wow! And then there are people who say that there is no
experimental evidence for the existence of a collective
unconscious! Jupiter into Libra. Libra was created out
of the scissors of a larger Scorpio, the scissors that
cut, eye for an eye, were transformed into scale pans.
(Huh? Here: horns-scissors, filed horns-scale pans).
Libra, the sign that completed the balanced zodiac with
12 signs, the one that was therefore logically considered
more equal than the others by the Greeks. Psyche's 4th
task in Apluleius' "The Golden Asse" (watch out, not a
typo this time...), the one associated with the element
Air, consists of retrieving a box of ointments from the
underworld, and it is important there that she does not
look left or right and walks straight out. Just like
Orpheus should have done. And you can't take anybody
with you, only people who want to walk out by themselves
can really get out in the end.
So, with Jupiter in Libra, it is a good time to escape
a few things that trap the self, say, if you are a usenet
junkie, might be the right time to trash that newsreader,
not look back into usenet and do something else.
So, if anybody from here wants to reach me in the future,
just go to www.exactphilosophy.net and use the e-mail
address indicated there. I'm out of here for good.
Bye, and thanks for all the fish!
Alain Stalder
[page 1]
odyssey
(muses between the nodes)
[wei-chi icon, see nobody@nowhere.not posts]
AlainjStalder
[page 2]
odyssey
(muses between the nodes)
The following text collects my usenet posts. The crucial sequence starts a bit
after the discovery of Quaoar in June 2002 and ends a bit after the discovery
of "2004 DW" in February 2004. Both are large Kuiper Belt objects, similar
to Pluto, but a bit smaller. It is interesting that I tried to stop posting several
times in between, but could only close the loop after a second symmetric and
practically unpredictable event (the discovery of "2004 DW"). That tells
maybe already a lot about the nature of fate and free will (and astrologically
about the lunar nodes).
What is in between is maybe best described as Jazz an intelligent and
somewhat improvised combination of different things in this case namely
physics, depth psychology, psychological astrology, history, ancient
philosophy and more. Consequently, not everything in here will appear to
make sense to everybody. In today's specialized world, it would take several
experts from different fields to get access to everything I write about. But just
like Jazz, it will be popularized and have some influence on everybody's lifes
with time...
The following posts say already so much in different styles and from different
angles and covering different fields, that all that remains for me to say here are
some technical things and something fundamental:
The document at the root of all of these posts which postulated the main
hypotheses for the first time is called "A few new discoveries in physics" and
is available from my web site at http://www.exactphilosophy.net, in the file
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf. In the following, I felt it
necessary to remove names and exact statements of the people that I replied to,
in order to avoid any potential copyright issues please see the original posts
and also other posts at the same time for a more complete picture of what
happened. Nonetheless, I would like to thank everybody who replied to my
posts or only read them, especially the newsgroup alt.astrology.tropical and
there especially Sharyn and Pete P, who helped me to evolve some interesting
ideas about fate and free will in the summer of 2003. Thanks everybody!
The words "live" and "love" are essentially the same...
(AlainjStalder, 29 Feb 2004)
[page 3]
closing...
On second thought, any selection of posts and other people's cues by me
would be biased. There are about a million things that influenced my posts
and the posts of others, of which many were quite indirect or unconscious
to at least some people involved...
So, if you are still interested in my posts, go to groups.google.com (or any
other place that may archive usenet posts now or in the future) and look for
posts under the following e-mail addresses:
astalder@exactphilosophy.net
delphi29@excite.com
astalder25@bluewin.ch
wei-chi@snow.ce
astalder@webshuttle.ch
delphi29@my-deja.com
alainsta@generation.net
stalder@physics.mcgill.ca
nobody@nowhere.not
At the time of this writing (March 2004), all posts with purely physical
content (to sci.physic.research) were made under my first e-mail address.
Posts about astrology were made under my first four e-mail addresses.
Good luck.
[some posts also as:]
<see first e-mail>25@bluewin.ch
[later posts also as:]
hermes@exactphilosophy.net
wei-chi@adliswil.ch
alain@wei.chi
Timeline
Aries 2001: Document created (exact moment lost), Abstract, first part of Section 1.
Taurus 2001: Introduction, rest of Section 1, Section 2, Acknowlegements, Appendix A and B.
Cancer 2001: Several attempts to start Section 3.
Leo 2001: First part of Section 3 (up to descriptions of star signs).
Virgo 2001: Detailed descriptions of star signs.
Libra/Scorpio 2001: Rest of Section 3, Appendix C, rigorous checks of facts in whole document.
Capricorn 2001/02: Section 4, Disclaimer, Estimation.
Aquarius 2002: Error corrections (mostly formal errors).
Pisces 2002: Refinements and final build of discoveries.pdf on March 5th, 2002 at 0:05 in Zrich:
[chart in Delphi]
Unconscious Spacetime
The following text has emerged between 1993 and 1995 and was initially titled "elementary philosophy".
me, conscious
see
changes: time
more than one thing,
something else than me: space
want: pictures change
take least complex explanation
food: own body exists
protection: outside world exists
sex: others exist, men and women
unconscious communication
usually only between men and women:
unconscious exists
it can think everything the conscious can
and see part of the future
quantum mechanics and relativity
virtual particles exist (v>c)
everything is influenced by everything
that is, was and will be
[Copyright]
[missed by google]
* From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: Re: aquarian tragedy
* Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0407041305.3ef42d1c@posting.google.com>
* Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:41:54 CST
DJ wrote:
> We have a friend born right after the aquarian
> planetary lineup of 1962--Feb 7th, she has gemini
> rising, pisces moon and about everything else possible
> in aquarius. The Christmas before I and my wife met
> her, she had a fight with her boyfriend, he went out,
> got drunk, got in a wreck and was killed. For several
> years after, she'd hook up with one inappropriate
> boyfriend after another--strange birds, married men, a
> fellow who lived in his parents' basement at 40--and
> one night I had a heart-to-heart talk with her about
> it; she admitted she had a fear of abandonment which
> was sabotaging her romantic life. If the guy wasn't a
> likely prospect to start with, she couldn't be hurt
> leaving him--anyway, she did take up with an eligible
> fellow not long after, somewhat older, divorced, with
> a 7-year-old daughter. That was 7 years ago; they
> haven't married but they do have a stable relationship
> and 2 more kids. In her more frustrated moments she
> has occasionally remarked that it wouldn't be such a
> big deal to leave him, but that kid's another story--
> The daughter, now 14, has been calling her "mom" for 7
> years now. She's often been to our house or we to
> theirs; I showed her an electric typewriter last time
> she was here, which she thought was really neat.
> Last week, she was riding in a car her friend was
> driving, the car slid on a wet road, hit another car,
> overturned, hit a tree; the friend was killed
> immediately and little Lizzie was taken to the
> emergency room. She has been in intensive care all
> week. She has been getting worse, she's in a coma and
> now the doctors are saying she has flatlined and is
> unlikely to recover. Looks like in the next few days
> I'll be attending a funeral.
> I seem to be thinking of a great many aquarians I know
> whose lives have been marked by tragedy. Not just
> famous people like Lincoln, of course. An early
> girlfriend of mine married an aquarian fellow; she had
> a congenital heart condition which had killed her
> father, her brother and her sister; she passed away at
> 28. The younger of their two daughters has the same
> condition, and he's the one left to watch after her.
> Another aquarian friend of mine has been married three
> or four times now; he doesn't seem to have done well
> after he came home one day and found his first wife
> murdered.
> My family hasn't had a lot of tragedy, but my aquarian
> sister did have a friend who was murdered some years
> ago.
> I don't really know my point, or if I have one, but
> this has occurred to me lately, certainly in context
> of recent news.
> My best friend was an aquarian; he died at 48 in 2000.
> It feels a little odd not having a best friend--nobody
> really "replaces" a "best friend", I don't guess, you
> don't really "do" that after 30 or so--
> I'm so sorry about Lizzie. There's not much more to
> say.
Hi DJ, very sorry to hear what happened.
I had a car "accident" about two weeks ago (only a scratch
on the left front door on the other guy's car), but since
we filled out and mutually signed a report about the event,
I know the other guy was born in March 1962.
If it helps, I think both events have a strong collective
background related to people born in that time, especially
to Neptune in Aquarius now (on the line of some planets
at birth and also the lunar nodes). The automobile was
invented between the discovery of Neptune (happened when
it was in Aquarius) and the one of Pluto. Also, Poseidon
claimed in mythology to have invented the horse, which was
disputed, but it was accepted that Poseidon installed the
first horse races. All this horsepower in cars and other
technological devices makes human lives so much more
vulnerable and dependent on technology. The sword above
the head of Damocles was attached with a horse's hair.
What disturbs me most, though, is that Sedna is now quite
exactly at a square to the lunar nodes in Feb/Mar 1962.
What if the discoverers had had the wisdom not to choose
a name for the new object so quickly ? (They have a full
ten years time, &*%%&!, to propose a name). Maybe then
there would not have been such a strong implication that
any stress (squares) of the 1962 generation should be
released (nodes) focussed into the fate of a daughter...
Of course, if the fates decide, there is no escape in the
end, but I do believe that some choices are possible and
can impact what the fates will decide to some degree.
And I also think that there are accidents on a collective
level, things that were not intended to go a specific way
and can only partially be mended afterwards.
At a seminar about the current Uranus/Neptune reception at
the 2004 Astrology World Congress, Melanie Reinhart quite
openly complained about the young discoverers of Sedna etc.
Of course, as long as astrology is not scientifically
confirmed and generally recognized, there is no logical
link for a scientist between the choice of a name and some
later events, so not all the blame can be put there.
But pushing for open recognition of astrology would only
play into the hands of Neptune in Aquarius. Maybe a bit
like Marx, who tried to improve the quite disastrous
results of industrialization for workers and ended up
causing at least as much suffering. Liz Greene compared
dealing with Neptune transits once to Jiu-Jitsu, to
move smoothly and try to use the force of the other side.
Simply using realism, like Marx (Taurus), is maybe only
providing Neptune what he cannot create himself, reality.
Then again, Lao-Tsu arrived on an ox on a mountain pass,
where he wrote down the Tao Te Ching according to the
legend, so Taurus (ox) is also realated to wisdom, and
the name of the guy in car in my "accident" was actually
a variant of the German word for "ox".
I know this post is maybe a bit much coloured by Mercury
and Mars in Leo, but I left it that way, in the hope
that some elements in it are maybe helpful or soothing.
Best wishes,
delphi29@excite.com
[missed by google]
* From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: New Planet "Machi" discovered!
* Message-ID: <d12bedf0.0407081209.7d28ad83@posting.google.com>
* Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:24:57 CST
Gotcha! It is not really a planet in outer space, but the name
of the first cat that my parents had when I was a kid.
Anybody else who thinks that all the new planets/objects that
have been discovered since Uranus are too collective, too
slow in transit, too aquarian in symbolism ?
How about some Leo, to compensate some of it, at everybody's
individual disposal ?
Machi is Greek, if I am not mistaken after a Greek ship.
Literally, the name means "destroyer", very similar to the
meaning of the word "Apollon".
So, what I am proposing, is that you can put Machi wherever
in you chart you would like Machi to be, and to move it around
whenever you please. Moreover, feel free to choose any symbols
for Machi that you like and feel also free to change them at
any time :)
That should allow to cut off some of the extremities of some
hard transits of collective planets, whether already found in
the sky or not, and with "cutting off extremities", I do not
refer to Sedna, and its a cat, not a ship!
I don't have a picture of the cat Machi at hand, so let me
just say that it was a pretty courageous red cat...
Anybody having any objections to a wildcard planet ?
(Hey, of course, feel also free to chose another name!)
delphi29@excite.com
About this series: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/xphi/
* 'in'/'out' (space)
* 'rest'/'move' (time)
* 'fire':='out'+'move', 'earth':='out'+'rest',
'water:='in'+'move', 'air':='in'+'move'
* 'fifth element':= what changes the four into each other
I think I found out how the 8 trigrams of the I Ching,
the Chinese "Book of Changes", relate to the above.
There are 8 possible transitions (changes, pun!) between
the elements as defined above, that flip only one of the
property pairs 'in'/'out' and 'rest'/'move', namely:
- 'fire' to 'water' (flips 'out' to 'in')
- 'water' to 'fire' (flips 'in' to 'out')
- 'earth' to 'air' (flips 'out' to 'in')
- 'air' to 'earth' (flips 'in' to 'out')
- 'fire' to 'earth' (flips 'move' to 'rest')
- 'earth' to 'fire' (flips 'rest' to 'move')
- 'water' to 'air' (flips 'move' to 'rest')
- 'air' to 'water' (flips 'rest' to 'move')
In other words, the 8 trigrams could be seen as 8 facets
of the 'fifth element'. Richard Wilhelm writes in "The I
Ching or Book of Changes" (Penguin Books, rendered into
English by Cary F. Baynes, Introduction):
: The eight trigrams are symbols standing for transitional states;
: they are images that are constantly undergoing change. Attention
: centers not on things in their state of being -- as is chiefly the
: case in the Occident -- but upon their movements in change. The
: eight trigrams therefore are not representations of things as such
: but of their tendencies in movement.
The term "things as such" refers almost certainly to Kant.
With 4 planets now in Libra, a view of the world based on
interaction, naturally comes to focus. And it fits with the
Piscean view (Uranus in Pisces) that a lot is relative.
For example, did astrologers look at the synastry between
the two US presidential candidates (i.e. at the relative,
interactive position between their planets) ? Might even be
crucial, since the first debate could indicate that having
each candidate speak alone in front of a crowd, makes the
republican candidate appear more presidential, while when
the two meet in public, things appear to shift somewhat.
So far, I have not been able to match trigrams to specific
transitions. Maybe it is even the wrong set of transitions,
maybe it is more Aristotles' cycle Fire-Air-Water-Earth-Fire
(where each time one of dry/wet and hot/cold flips).
This was the fifth post, hence it was related to the fifth
element, and to Mercury. I have heard of the grand Quintile
that will form two times before the elections. Quintiles
are related to the Golden Ratio, because the ratio between
a side of a decagon (10 sides) and the radius of the circle
is the Golden Ratio, about 0.618. This allows to construct
an angle of 36* and thus 72* and the pentagon. Symbolically
there is thus a relation to the sun (golden) and to beauty
and harmony, because the Golden Ratio in things and nature
appears as such (thus Venus, and also Libra/Taurus).
alain
This is the 6th post in this series.
The nodes are at a sextile to their position on 9/11.
There is opportunity to go both ways, be it politically
or otherwise. Look back or forward, darkness or light.
I tried to keep this one piece/thread to me in public,
but to no avail. Even a well protected place in usenet
is still a public place. The second post destroyed a
lot, although it also created my post that was rejected
(the "catwoman" post, the one that would have been no. 4).
Of course, the reasons for the rejection were ones that I
could understand, but are still not where my heart is.
The post was very good, getting something really
beautiful and crucial right. Men actively keep air still
in their minds, that is the inner dialogue they ususally
are having, which is often interrupted and enriched by
the more passively flowing language of women. Women are
more vulnerable to outside reality, more passive, even in
today's times that believe that suddenly everything has
become different, just because a few planets are or have
been in Aquarius or that it will be the rising sign for a
couple of thousand years. Women stabilize their feelings,
while men are much more vulnerable and passive to what
they feel. Women decide, they create a stable vision, a
fire, that shows men where to go, instead of the quickly
changing fire in men. Men are free what to do, but not
free what to feel, that depends on whether women like
what their men do. Of course, women are immediately more
helpless than men, and the feelings and visions are to
some degree rather collective than individual, so that
it is ...
Anyway.
Where will I go ? Guess what:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/wei-chi.pdf
Sorry, but sometimes it is necessary to break harmony.
I know, I am very bad at it in some sense, but this time
it feels really necessary for me to do. Sorry all, +pi.
.
Fate:
A review of http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
By somebody with public recognition, be it an astrologer
or a physicists, etc.; or maybe two people together.
Acknowledges the seminal importance of the two main discoveries:
- emotional feedback as a unified explanation of the collective
unconscious, telepathy, precognition, divination, astrology
- simple astrological model, compatible with Aristotle, simply
the key to a future experimental proof of astrology
An opportunity in public soon (node-node outgoing sextile), a
bit later a drive (outgoing square), a necessity (trine, fate)
by May 2008 (or sometime later), etc.
I see neither necessity nor any chance at all for myself
to help promote my discoveries. Any I tried. Some things
are fate. I tried to start writing a popular description
with illustrations, but at the moment I simply cannot do
it. You cannot do something that feels impossible. Maybe
you can do it for a few hours or a few days, but then you
stop, you have to. Fate. So the opportunity is probably
for somebody else regarding the discoveries. Good Luck,
whoever you may be!
For me there are hopefully other, more modest opportunities.
I am happy to step out of the public light (however limited
the recognition was). With Saturn at the end of Pisces, I
lack faith into things. The discoveries will make it. There
will be a time, when people will take the time to read it
thoroughly and ask others when they do not understand some
of it. The document (forged in its essence by the Saturn-
Pluto opposition and thus containing very little of me as a
private person, at bit more extremely than in "The Astrology
of Fate", which grew around conjunction) has a lot to teach
almost everybody, no matter how intelligent, knowledgable,
or famous that person may be. Wake up! Gently...
alain (hermes showing off the lyre in 20x20+3 posts)
64 I:I :I:, wei chi, fire over water
Before Completion. Success.
But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
Gets his tail in the water,
There is nothing that would further.
What shall I say, nothing seems to further...
I am both too impatient and too nice. Both implies that I
should stop now to say anything in public. I hope something
beautiful will grow one day from the matrix that I planted
by posting and writing. I cannot blame anybody in person for
not wanting to face the world-restructuring significance of
my discoveries, since it is clear that one cannot be "half
pregnant" with them. But I must say that, on a very personal
level, there is a deeply wounded spot in me that is deeply
disappointed by humanity as a whole (not by any particular
individuals, which I can all understand and forgive a lot).
Not one single person who understood my basic ideas *and*
their crucial importance, although they are so obvious,
clear and direct that one should rather wonder why nobody
considered them before. When I was in school, a girl once
asked the teacher why, since Einstein's theory of relativity
simplified so many things, nobody could find it earlier.
"Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler." It is very
easy to make things simple and get them wrong. But finding a
simple description of the world that is also right is very
difficult and requires also luck or fate, if you prefer.
I know there is a drive in me to announce things in public
and to heal (see stellar parans). But there is nothing any
more to announce that would further, only maybe things that
could hurt people or myself. There were times when I did not
announce anything in public. And I was happier then.
Please forgive me, being a man and having Saturn at the end
of Pisces and Neptune in Scorpio, for most of the time not
seeing what is essentially as a whole, and keeping to forget
it again and again...
Take care, alain
wake up... (live, love, node, gate)
me, see: in/out (space)
what I see changes: rest/move (time)
fire:= out+move
air:= in+rest
water:= in+move
earth:= out+rest
depending on how I want what I see to change,
things will change differently: free will
ether (5th element):= free will
to be continued inside...
thread is going to sleep (public to private)...
for about ten years, or so...
see you then, bye...
--
Copyright (C) 2004 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
The Tao of free will plus one...
5 x (9 x 9) + 1 ...
Female reflection...
alain@wei.chi did not write:
: go to sleep... (die, hate, node, gate)
:
: we, feel: in/out (=we/our parts, space)
: what we feel changes: rest/move (time)
:
: fire':= out+move
: air':= in+rest
: water':= in+move
: earth':= out+rest
:
: depending on how we want what we feel to change,
: things will change differently: free fate
:
: ether (5th element):= free fate
:
: to be continued outside...
: thread is waking up (private to public)...
: for about ten years, or so...
:
: feel each other now, hello...
:
: --
: Nocopyleft (feel) anytime by everyone. No Lefts Unreserved.
to be refined...
A few new discoveries...
I hope almost everybody interested in astrology, and
in life, will find at least a few interesting things
in what is referenced below... (May I hint maybe at
the selected post no. 216 "Hermes and Five", in light
of the upcoming second grand quintile ? ;)
Enjoy,
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
--
Link
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
Table of Contents (29 pages)
About ............................................. 1
Abstract .......................................... 1
1 A New Physical Effect ........................... 1
1.1 The Experimental Facts ........................ 1
1.2 Analysis of the Facts ......................... 1
1.3 Gedankenexperiment ............................ 2
1.4 Experimental Challenges ....................... 2
1.5 Hypothetical Consequences ..................... 3
2 Elementary Astrology ............................ 3
2.1 The Planets ................................... 3
2.2 The Star Signs ................................ 4
2.3 Fire (Aries/Leo/Sagittarius) .................. 5
2.4 Water (Cancer/Scorpio/Pisces) ................. 5
2.5 Air (Gemini/Libra/Aquarius) ................... 5
2.6 Earth (Taurus/Virgo/Capricorn) ................ 6
3 Applied Astrology ............................... 6
3.1 The United States of America .................. 6
3.2 Numbers ....................................... 7
3.3 Planetary Aspects ............................. 7
3.4 Synastry and Transits ......................... 7
3.5 Men and Women ................................. 8
3.6 Dreams ........................................ 8
3.7 Astrological Houses ........................... 8
3.8 Astrological Inheritance ...................... 9
3.9 Star Signs in Detail .......................... 9
3.9.1 Aries ...................................... 10
3.9.2 Taurus ..................................... 10
3.9.3 Gemini ..................................... 11
3.9.4 Cancer ..................................... 11
3.9.5 Leo ........................................ 11
3.9.6 Virgo ...................................... 11
3.9.7 Libra ...................................... 12
3.9.8 Scorpio .................................... 12
3.9.9 Sagittarius ................................ 13
3.9.10 Capricorn ................................. 13
3.9.11 Aquarius .................................. 14
3.9.12 Pisces .................................... 14
3.10 Astrological Ages ........................... 14
3.11 The First Age ............................... 15
3.12 The Age of Aries ............................ 15
3.13 The Age of Pisces ........................... 15
3.14 The Age of Aquarius ......................... 16
3.15 Mythology in Life ........................... 18
Hermes ........................................... 19
4 Science and Philosophy ......................... 20
Acknowledgements ................................. 23
References ....................................... 23
Appendices ....................................... 23
A How it came about .............................. 23
B Proof of Discovery ............................. 23
C The Future ..................................... 29
Disclaimer ....................................... 29
Estimation (January 2002) ........................ 29
Related Documents
Review (of the above document, single page):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.zip
Book of Changes (philosophical approach to astrology):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
Selection of about 50 usenet posts:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/
Titles of these selected posts:
Introductions (to "A few new discoveries in physics")
052 Very brief Description for Scientists
055 The Need for specific Experiments
075 Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
142 Step by Step
158 Virtual Particles
177 Schritt fuer Schritt [german/deutsch]
Physics
108 Quantum Mechanics and Relativity
110 Does the Brain think Quantum Mechanically?
120 Measurement in Science I
121 Measurement in Science II
125 Gedankenexperiment: Schrodinger's Cat, EPR and Decoherence
128 Decoherence and the Role of the Observer
Astrology
078 Motivation in Psychological Astrology
082 Counselor vs. Scientist
088 Does Sagittarius come short on the Internet?
095 Axes and Opposites
103 Astrological Ages I
104 Astrological Ages II
113 Scorpio and the Fates
161 Hexagram: As above, so below
174 Geographie und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
216 Hermes and Five
226 Themes and Experiment
228 Moon Nodes as Gates
236 Close Encounters
244 Opportunity in Greek Mythology
246 Usenet and Experiment
338 Angles and Elements
347 William James Sidis: Life and "Time Reversal"
348 Dry and Wet Law Systems
351 Archaic House Numbering
362 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects I
363 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects II
Philosophy
087 Opposites
114 Experts
123 Philosophy and Science
202 Knowledge and Perception
317 The East and Transformation
337 Aristotle's Elements per Season and Yin-Yang
345 Lost in Translation I - Random Meetings
354 The Music is between the Nodes
356 Lost in Translation II - TOE
Interdisciplinary
069 Twilight Zone
071 Meta Experiment
122 Crystal Clear
165 Butterfly Dream
178 The Art of Association
224 wei-chi
234 Quaoar and Physics
323 4 Gravitation
324 The Science of Association
334 Physik und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
(this post is scheduled to be reposted about twice a year)
Recently Mimi Wings99 and Lady X mentioned on a.a.mod that
tMars will be at Dubbya's IC on election night 2004. I just
wanted to indicate that 12 December 2000, when the US Supreme
Court effectively decided the previous election, Mars was at
the same spot.
Beginning and end ?
Maybe, will probably also depend on whether there will be a
clear winner already on election night (2 November)...
delphi29@excite.com
[I am reposting my reply because both mine and Alan Murphy's
post were posted through Google groups and both did not appear
in Google groups (but elsewhere), so that it is not unlikely
that Alan Murphy would otherwise miss my post.]
Alan Murphy wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm thinking about making a simple freeware program for use on
> Java-enabled mobile phones, which will give the chart details for a
> given time. So if anyone has any advice, then it'd be greatly
> appreciated :) I presume using the Swiss Ephemeris is the way to go.
In principle, Swiss Ephemeris would be the best choice
(in my opinion), but I suspect it will not fit into today's
cell phones, at least not all of it. Maybe only using the
approximation by Steve Moshier (part of Swiss Ephemeris)
could help to reduce memory requirements.
There is a Java port of Swiss Ephemeris, but I am unable to
tell you anything about how reliable or up-to-date it is:
http://www.th-mack.de/download/index.html
I have myself written a freeware astrology program for
PalmOS devices (in plain C). It is called "Delphi" and
comes with an open source library called "astrolib", which
I also wrote myself, and which does essentially two things:
a) calculates planetary positions of sun, moon and planets
up to Pluto with an accuracy of the order of 1 arc minute
b) allows to obtain time zone data for more than 2000 places
world wide, even for historical dates (accuracy is not
perfect, but it relies on the only freely available data
about time zones that I know of)
More information here:
http://jove.prohosting.com/delphi29
http://jove.prohosting.com/delphi29/astrolib.html
And good luck,
delphi29@excite.com (aka AlainStalder)
Ray Murphy wrote:
[...]
: RM: This sounds like Rob Hand's explanation of 20 years ago where he
: suggested that astrology might just be 'magic', and that we have all
: collectively turned astrological belief into reality.
Funny that you mention Robert Hand. Actually, in my first
draft for this post, I quoted something else by Rob Hand,
namely the label
"shrinking transformation"
that he gave to the Saturn-Pluto cycle, in an article in
the Aug/Sep 2001 issue of the Mountain Astrologer Magazine
which was also posted on the web 29 September 2001, very
likely in light of the 9/11 attacks:
"A Crisis of Power: Saturn and Pluto Face Off"
http://www.mountainastrologer.com/planettracks/hand/hand.html
Shrinking already takes place when these two (Saturn and Pluto)
are conjunct, thus even more so when they are in oppsition,
like they were three times in 2001 and 2002. Actually that is
exactly the timeframe in which I wrote my discoveries.pdf
document. So, I guess, it is not astonishing that the many
jewels/seed contained in my document are difficult to recognize
as such, precisely because they have gone through a "shrinking
transformation", they have shrunk and have been transformed.
It is just a property of current times that people do not spend
much time reading and studying something particular, but rather
quickly glance at many things (Pluto in Sagittarius and probably
other factors). But that will shift in the years to come.
I feel that "your" Rob Hand quote is the wiser choice, though,
at least in the long run...
[RM:]
: I'll keep crunching the numbers anyway and see if I can find (besides
: the Gauquelin findings).any sort of correlation between planetary
: movement and the affairs of life-forms.
Since I am a physicist, I naturally agree that a proof
by numbers is something desirable. I do not feel like
astrology will remain in the shadows for much longer
in this century (on a timescale of decades, not years).
In the meantime, maybe one of the selections from my
usenet posts could be helpful for your endeavours (or
for the ones of others, of course):
226 Themes and Experiment
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s226.html
The idea is to focus on "themes", on what occupies the
mind of a person, rather than on "yes/no", not on how
a person will decide in a given situation.
)o+
--
More suggestions for ASCII planet glyphs ("smileys"):
- Sun o
- Moon )
- Venus o+
- Mars \o
- Jupiter )+
- Saturn +(
- Uranus H+
- ...
And the winner is...
Kerry.
Many people have analyzed the candidates' birth charts
and their transits, progressions etc. in great detail.
Let me instead look at things from a broader perspective
(true to Pluto in Sagittarius), let me try to identify
the major forces, urges and fears and derive the most
likely winner (Kerry) from it.
Argument 1: Justice.
The 2000 election was very close. Everybody agrees that
both candidates got almost 50% of the votes. The 2004
election will again very likely be very close. If this
time the same party would win again, that would create
great resentments in the country that would not be good
for the USA in almost all imaginable ways.
Argument 2: The Nodes.
This is by far the strongest argument, in my opinion.
The USA has the northern node at about 6 Leo. The urge
of the country is to be special, to have a special role
in the world, to make things that others outside of it
admire and dream about.
More than emerging China, or remerging Russia, or even
than fundamentalist terrorism, the USA is feels challenged
by the growing and emerging European Union. Many books
are written about this subject, and sadly many of them
emphasise the differences between the USA and the EU.
This overshadows the clear fact that these two have no
closer country in ideas, feeling, etc. than each other,
no matter what ideas some US think tanks may have come
up with in the recent past.
Now, which candidate can truly and deeply reform the
American Dream ? George W. Bush with the northern node at
20 Gemini has the general urge to polarize, which may be
a necessity in an acute crisis, but is not where the USA
ultimatively wants to go. Kerry, in turn, has the northern
node closely conjunct the one of the USA, namely at 7 Leo.
And it is conjunct with his Pluto. So he has the depth and
the direction that the country so much desires.
You know, the EU may be ahead in some things compared to
the USA (say level of education, for example), but the EU
alone will never be able alone to reproduce the excitement
that only the USA can generate. Good luck and best wishes!
That's it.
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
John Roth wrote:
: The recent slew of articles on the US chart makes me
: think that I should, once again, issue a call for some
: sanity on the issue.
:
: If you, as an astrologer, were given the following
: dates for a business, which one would you
: choose for what purpose?
:
: 1. The date that the principles agreed to start
: the business.
: 2. The date the government issued the incorporation
: papers.
: 3. The date the business opened its doors.
: 4. The date the business issued its first press release.
: 5. The date the stock was first traded.
I am not sure if the comparison with a business is the
only possible analogy. A moment of birth of a person is
essentially a moment where two things separate, mother
and child, it is a moment when a connection breaks apart.
Arguing backwards from the most commonly used birth date
for the USA, 4 July 1776, Sagittarius rising (Sibly chart),
the bold public announcement (Sagittarius) of breaking up
to the parent (GB) and the world, feels very much like a
moment of birth of something new (Cancer sun).
But, since I argued backwards from a specific chart, any
of the dates you or others indicated might fit better than
the one that is commonly used, if only enough time was
spent looking into it. If only there were scientifically
confirmed quantitative models of astrology, then computers
could search automatically (quickly) for the best fit ;)
But I am starting to repeat myself, like an old program
of "The Matrix"...
)o+
: If it was incorporated, I think most of us would
: choose 2. If it wasn't, most of us would chose
: either 1 or 3.
:
: If we apply this to the United States, we
: have these dates:
:
: November ?? 1774, when the date for
: the first meeting of the Continental Congress
: was set, and the Articles of Association were
: sent around to the various colonial assemblies
: for ratification.
:
: May 10, 1775, which was the first meeting
: of the Continental Congress on the date set
: above. It is, incidentally, the only chart in the
: entire set that can be reasonably argued to be
: elected - see the exact Sun / Moon trine, which
: any astrologer would strive for in an election.
:
: July 2, 1776, when the Continental Congress
: vote for independence.
:
: July 4, 1776, when they agreed on the wording
: of the press release.
:
: The final peace treaty between the US and
: Great Britain in 1783,
:
: Revision of the fundamental authorizing document
: of the Continental Congress (the Articles of
: Confederation.)
:
: Second revision of the fundamental authorizing
: document that changed the actual structure of
: the government (the US Constitution.)
:
: Taking all of these dates, the one that I would
: discard ***first*** is July 4 - it was the date
: of the press release, and has nothing fundamental
: to say about the US, although it has lots fundamental
: to say about the ideals under which the country
: functions.
:
: Now, let's consider the Continental Congress
: chart on May 10, 1775.
:
: There is one thing we should all agree on going in.
: This was an effective chart for the period from
: May 10 for some time forward. It meets all of
: the criteria. There was a founding document
: (the Articles of Association) that was voted on
: by the principles (the colonial assemblies).
: The members were appointed by the assemblies.
: It prosecuted the Revolutionary War, appointed
: George Washington as General of the Armies,
: wrote and sent both the Declaration of the
: Causes and Necessities of Waging War and the
: Olive Branch Petition to England. It voted for
: independence (July 2), and it issued the press
: release (the Declaration on July 4.) It was in
: continuous session from May 10th until it was
: thrown out of the hall so it could be remodeled
: for the new Congress!
:
: One interesting point about independence. The
: first Continental Congress (1774) considered the
: issue and decided to delegate the decision to the
: formal Congress they were establishing under the
: Articles of Association. This was well enough
: understood that the New York delegation was
: sent with strict instructions to "take no action
: with regard to independency."
:
: Let's look at this chart for a minute (you can
: pull it up for yourselves - May 10, 1775,
: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, at 9:00 LMT.
: (although I've heard of a rectification to
: 9:37.)
:
: The two most outstanding features are the
: Sun / Moon trine and the Moon / Neptune
: conjunction, both around one degree!
:
: While the Sun/Moon trine is hardly conclusive,
: it's a good indication that this chart was elected:
: that trine is something that just about any
: astrologer would go for, especially astrologers
: that had learned as part of Masonry and hadn't
: really practiced any significant amount.
:
: Neptune, of course, would not be discovered
: until 1850, so they couldn't have avoided the
: Moon / Neptune conjunction. So what does
: this conjunction say about our national
: character? Originally, we were a sea-faring
: nation; today we are heavily involved with oil.
: We are highly idealistic, very much inclined
: to religious fanaticism, and also very much
: inclined to take publicity documents for the
: truth. All of these are Neptune characteristics.
: I could go on and on and on: almost all of
: our imports today come by ocean transport,
: and it's our imports that contribute to the
: balance of trade problems, the slow destruction
: of our native industries, and so forth. Etc.
:
: I like the Sag rising Declaration charts for
: the press release for one simple reason: they
: have the MC on Neptune. This is very appropriate
: for a publicity document that is a statement of
: ideals, but it's doubly appropriate considering
: the Continental Congress chart.
:
: Now, the fundamental question is: was this
: chart superseded, and if so by what
: chart? My argument is that it wasn't.
:
: In the entire series of charts between the
: Continental Congress chart and the Constitution
: chart, only one stands out: the chart of the vote
: for independence on July 2. Any argument for
: a later chart has to deal with superseding either
: the Continental Congress or the Independence
: chart, and that same argument can then be
: applied to all later charts up to the Constitution chart.
:
: So what did the vote on independence change?
: It did not change the status of the colonies in
: international law: Great Britain would not agree
: until the Treaty of Paris in 1783. It did not
: change the governance: the Continental
: Congress met on July 3rd and after the same as
: it had on July 2nd and before.
:
: It made mostly symbolic changes: the Congress
: voted on a number of things that had high
: symbolic value for a nation, such as a seal and
: a coat of arms, and it did this before taking up
: the Declaration. It also changed the wording of
: the laws it passed. Before that, the wording included
: the phrase: "The United Colonies in Congress Assembled",
: after that, it was "The United States in Congress Assembled."
:
: What it did not do was change the fundamental
: structure of the government. It still functioned
: under the Articles of Association, and it still had
: only powers delegated to it by the States.
:
: The Constitution, of course, radically changed the
: structure of the federal government, but it did not
: change the fundamental nature of that government:
: it had, and still has, only powers delegated to it by
: the sovereign states.
:
: John Roth
Lisa Eclipse Astrology wrote:
[...]
> > More suggestions for ASCII planet glyphs ("smileys"):
> > - Sun o
> > - Moon )
> > - Venus o+
> > - Mars \o
> > - Jupiter )+
> > - Saturn +(
> > - Uranus H+
> > - ...
> >
> Oh God these are cute! The first one looks like Mercury, but here is a
> suggestion for Neptune and Pluto (and where did you get these????)
>
> - Neptune -)+
> - Pluto o)+
Thanks! Where did I get these? I invented them.
In Greek mythology, it was Hermes, together with the Fates,
who created the alphabet. Compared to that, creating these
few glyphs was easy :)
But don't ask me where the idea came from...
)o+
Ray Murphy wrote:
: >[RM:]
: >: I'll keep crunching the numbers anyway and see if I can find (besides
: >: the Gauquelin findings).any sort of correlation between planetary
: >: movement and the affairs of life-forms.
: >
: >Since I am a physicist, I naturally agree that a proof
: >by numbers is something desirable. I do not feel like
: >astrology will remain in the shadows for much longer
: >in this century (on a timescale of decades, not years).
:
: RM: Some parts of astrology have already been removed from the shadows
: because many users of the JigSaw research program alone have seen how
: single-factors (for certain categories of data) reveal virtually
: nothing, and if more data is added some graphs will eventually turn
: into a flat line.
: Many astrologers are disappointed by this type of finding, but the
: good news is that it allows us to move forward and ask "How ~are~ we
: getting so many correct answers?"
The observation, that effects are first there with little
data and then disappear with more data, seems to be quite
a common phenomenon in all kinds of research on astrology,
telepathy, precognition, etc. Already C.G. Jung mentions this
in his article about "Synchronicity" in 1952. As long as the
people involved are excited, emotionally interested, there
seems to be an effect, but after a while, when the interest
is lost to some degree, correlations gradually disappear.
In the 80's me and three friends used to play a board game
called "Risk". The board is essentially a map of the world,
split into individual countries. Each player gets some
"armies" onto some countries, and then the goal is to conquer
the world by rolling dice (higher numbers beat lower numbers
and thus defeat armies). Contrary to most people we would not
play each against each other, but two against two, which lead
to very long games. Now, especially one of the guys I played
with (one of the two in the adversary team relative to me),
seemed to throw clearly larger numbers if he was in a good
mood and low numbers if he was not. With three dice, he would
sometimes produce series like 6-6-6, then 6-6-5, etc.
At some point me and my partner thus decided to note down all
the results of throwing dice by everyone, in the hope either
to prove the bias or at least to make the effect disappear.
Here is what happened: Objectively, we found nothing, it was
even so that the others appeared to have had a bit less luck
and they asked for a printout as a proof for them to keep.
Subjectively, however, things looked differently: The "lucky"
guy threw high results with his dice in crucial situations
and low ones when it did not matter.
Maybe it would have been possible do identify which situations
were crucial and which ones were not, but not without a lot of
effort, I would guess several years of work! So, for all that
is seemed, what we had wanted to catch had simply moved a tiny
step away so that we could see it, but not catch it objectively.
I think one of the main assumptions of science may not be true
when you try to prove astrology or things like the ones that I
mentioned above:
Science typically assumes that nature is pretty stupid.
The typical assumption is that if you do something repeatedly,
that nature will always react the same way, like a machine or
at least like something that is a lot more stupid than we are.
This may simply not be the case.
The main hypothesis of the discoveries.pdf document is that
people are connected, what one person feels and thinks has a
direct influence on what others think and feel, although this
is usually not realized by people as being so. Individual
people trying to find experimental proof for such connections
would then be faced with a "bigger mind", who knows everything
about themselves because each one would be part of it.
Scientists would thus be in a similar situation to ants who
might want to prove some things about human beings. People can
manipulate ants easily, can let them walk onto leaves, then
move the leaves and/or rotate them, etc. People can thus very
easily fool ants into thinking that reality is different than
it "really" is.
But I think, things are not hopeless even in such a situation.
Maybe not everything can be catched scientifically, but some
improvement is possible. In my opinion, the major shortcoming
of most experiments, is that they *focus* on something, and thus
make it easy for nature to escape to somewhere else, even
*before* we even think about making a specific experiment, since
we are so simple that what we will do is predictable for nature,
just like how an ant will behave is a lot more predictable for
a person than how a larger animal or another person will behave.
That brings me back to what I suggested about a year ago at aat,
namely to take a very, very broad look at all usenet news posts.
That gives you lots of digitized data, all with date and time.
If you only take a small number of posts and look only for some
aspects of astrology, then I am sure the experience will be that
first an effect will be there, and then it will disappear with
more data. But, if you look at all that is out there, and look
at it from as many possible angles as possible, then there is
much less room for nature to escape too (and she has also not
been squeezed into a corner). Also, there is no sujectivity and
ambivalence in the data of usenet posts. It is all bits and
bytes, an "X" is an "X" and not a "U".
Of course, this approach is clearly part of Pluto's passage
through Sagittarius. Google is paving the way for such research,
by collecting the data and developing techniques that will allow
to catch a few new things about nature in the future.
But I would be astonished, if there were not a few clever tricks
that would allow to get some results without such a massive and
expensive effort. Such results could even be crucial for getting
people interested enough to go all the way.
: >In the meantime, maybe one of the selections from my
: >usenet posts could be helpful for your endeavours (or
: >for the ones of others, of course):
: >
: >226 Themes and Experiment
: >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s226.html
: >
: >The idea is to focus on "themes", on what occupies the
: >mind of a person, rather than on "yes/no", not on how
: >a person will decide in a given situation.
:
: RM: Themes can of course be highly subjective, but that doesn't
: prevent us from using them because ultimately any scientific
: experiment depends upon experimenters "Doing what they claim they can
: do".
I agree. Things like a "ball" or a "dial", things that every
experimentator agrees to be real and the same for everybody,
are maybe not more than a broad common agreement on a theme.
A bit less philosophically, let me try explain what I mean
with "themes" as opposed to "yes/no" to people who may not
have catched the idea, yet.
Again, very much in "Pluto in Sagittarius" style, let me use
some "lateral thinking" (thanks Pete for that term). The
current US president is president number 43. The Chinese Book
of Changes, the I Ching, consists of 64 "hexagrams", symbols
with an associated description.
I was simply struck when I first read the description of
hexagram no. 43, because it hit many themes of the previous
four years (especially since 9/11) right on the head.
The title of the hexagram is "Kuai / Break-through (Resoluteness)".
It contains, for example, this:
"[...] a compromise with evil is not possible, evil must under
all circumstances be openly discredited."
I guess that was clearly done by the president (e.g. "Axis of
Evil"). Or take, for example:
"[...] the struggle must not be carried on directly by force."
Here, only the theme fits, but "yes/no" is ambivalent. The war
in Afghanistan was directly against terrorists, but also not
too directly, because it relied, as said also in democratic
election ads, on "Afghan Warlords", and might thus have made
it easier for Osama bin Laden to escape. The war in Iraq had
been officially labelled a war against terror, but in reality
was a lot more indirect (no weapons of mass destruction in
Iraq, little to no terrorists, very little or no connection
to the 9/11 attacks). Note that even if some of the facts that
I mentioned above would later turn out to have been false, the
themes would still be the same...
I know, many people on usenet would normally almost rather die
than to follow a web link, but this time I feel that it would
almost certainly be worth the extra effort to do so and to read
the rest about hexagram 43. (And note that, if the themes do
convince you, that then you can also have a look a no. 44 :)
http://www2.unipr.it/~deyoung/I_Ching_Wilhelm_Translation.html#43
The text is from "I Ching or Book of Changes", Penguin Books,
(C) 1950 and 1967 by the Bollingen Foundation, Inc., The
Richard Wilhelm Translation rendered into English by Cary F.
Baynes, Foreword by C.G. Jung. The text is available on the
web at many more places, too.
)o+
[reposting, because Google did not catch my original
reply and Alan Murphy posted through Google and also
likely Michael Rideout could not see my reply...]
Alan Murphy wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm thinking about making a simple freeware program for use on
> Java-enabled mobile phones, which will give the chart details for a
> given time. So if anyone has any advice, then it'd be greatly
> appreciated :) I presume using the Swiss Ephemeris is the way to go.
In principle, Swiss Ephemeris would be the best choice
(in my opinion), but I suspect it will not fit into today's
cell phones, at least not all of it. Maybe only using the
approximation by Steve Moshier (part of Swiss Ephemeris)
could help to reduce memory requirements.
There is a Java port of Swiss Ephemeris, but I am unable to
tell you anything about how reliable or up-to-date it is:
http://www.th-mack.de/download/index.html
I have myself written a freeware astrology program for
PalmOS devices (in plain C). It is called "Delphi" and
comes with an open source library called "astrolib", which
I also wrote myself, and which does essentially two things:
a) calculates planetary positions of sun, moon and planets
up to Pluto with an accuracy of the order of 1 arc minute
b) allows to obtain time zone data for more than 2000 places
world wide, even for historical dates (accuracy is not
perfect, but it relies on the only freely available data
about time zones that I know of)
More information here:
http://jove.prohosting.com/delphi29
http://jove.prohosting.com/delphi29/astrolib.html
And good luck,
delphi29@excite.com (aka AlainStalder)
Ray Murphy wrote:
[...]
: RM: This sounds like Rob Hand's explanation of 20 years ago where he
: suggested that astrology might just be 'magic', and that we have all
: collectively turned astrological belief into reality.
Actually, the first sketch for my post referred to another quote
by Robert Hand, namely to the label that he gave to the Saturn-Pluto
cycle in his article about that topic in the Aug/Sep 2001 issue of
the Mountain Astrologer Magazine:
"shrinking transformation"
Shrinking takes already place when these two (Saturn/Pluto) are
conjunct, hence even more so when they are in opposition, like
they were three times in 2001 and 2002, when I wrote down what I
found out in my discoveries.pdf document. Maybe not astonishingly,
my document contains jewels/seeds that have shrunk so much that
they are no longer immediately recognizable, at least not in the
short run, in times like these, where people hardly sit down and
study something thoroughly, but have the illusion of being able
to understand and place everything they see in a few minutes.
Having said all of this, I think, at least in the long run, your
Rob Hand quote above is the wiser one...
For completeness, here is the link to Robert Hand's TMA article
(it was posted on the web 29 September 2001, obviously in light
of the 9/11 attacks):
"A Crisis of Power: Saturn and Pluto Face Off"
http://www.mountainastrologer.com/planettracks/hand/hand.html
[RM:]
: I'll keep crunching the numbers anyway and see if I can find (besides
: the Gauquelin findings).any sort of correlation between planetary
: movement and the affairs of life-forms.
Since I am a physicist, I naturally agree that a proof by numbers
is something desirable. I don't see astrology in the 21st century
in the shadows for much longer (on a time scale of decades, not
individual years).
Maybe one of the selections from my posts could be helpful for your
attempts. Very roughly, the idea is to identify rather "topics",
issues that occupy the minds of specific signs more than others,
than to predict "yes/no" decisions regarding any topic:
226 Themes and Experiment
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s226.html
Bonus Material (US Elections):
Mimi Wings99 and Lady X recently mentioned here that tMars will be
on the IC of the current president on Election Night 2004. I noticed
that Mars was at the same spot 12 December 2000, when the US Supreme
Court effectively decided the previous election.
Beginning and end ?
In psychological astrology, the MC represents typically the wish of
the mother and the IC the father in some less well-defined way. Was
the second war in Iraq rather related to the father or the mother ?
To "Bush 41" or to "Number One" (nicknames by the current president
for his parents) ?
The current president is the 43rd president of the USA. I was simply
struck by how accurately hexagram number 43 of the Chinese Book of
Changes, the I Ching, fits with the themes of the previous three
years. I know many people on usenet would normally rather die than
to follow a web link, but this time it might be really worth the
"extra" effort. So, here is a link to hexagram 43 of the I Ching:
http://www2.unipr.it/~deyoung/I_Ching_Wilhelm_Translation.html#43
Subsequent hexagrams, 44 and 45, indicate a reunification of the now
deeply divided USA under the next two newly elected presidents. Does
Kerry fit with hexagram 44 ? Can reunification already happen before
the return of Pluto in 2023 ? Or is Pluto's entry into Capricorn in
2007 already sufficient to get things started ? ...
I am drawing no conclusions. :)
)o+
Here is another post that was originally posted in September 2002
to alt.astrology.moderated. See also "Basic Opposites" in
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
Enjoy,
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
--
Rapid Communication - Axes and Opposites
[me] 27 September 2002
Abstract
The opposites wet/dry of the elements are identified with in/out.
Since the six axes of the zodiac form wet/dry pairs, it is argued
that, in each case, the opposite signs focus on common themes,
but the wet sign focusses on the inside and the dry sign on the
outside. This text builds up on [1].
1. wet/dry = in/out
The outside world is most directly experienced by what is seen
(fire) and touched (earth). Mind (air) and feelings (water) are
inside. In quantum mechanics, between measurements (reality), the
possibilities of what may be seen in the next experiment evolve
in waves (water) that are mathematically formulated (logical,
abstract, air). Hence the two wet elements, air and water, are
associated with inside or self, whereas the two dry elements,
fire and earth, are associated with outside or world. In nature,
things are often drier on the outside than in the inside,
especially organic things, like, for example, bodies of people
and animals or fruits and vegetables.
2. Axes and Opposites
The six axes of the zodiac all have pairs of dry/wet elements
opposing each other. The hypothesis, backed by psychological
experience, is that each sign has the same amount of energy, but
invests it either towards the inside or towards the outside.
In the following, I will try to quickly describe the concrete
drives of the six axes. Note that this will describe the initial
drive, and that consequently this will trigger counterreactions
from other people, which, in turn, can lead to the opposite
behaviour, so that people will in reality oscillate to some
degree between the proposed opposites. The actual opposites are
essentially taken from [1].
2a. Virgo/Pisces (dry/wet)
Virgo is sorting the outside world, is actively doing some
sorting (even if done in the mind, then it is later at least
written down; i.e. the goal is in reality). Pisces do actively
little in the outside world, but in their minds, they quickly
recognize situations and how people behave, i.e. they compare
current situations with previous ones and hence sort people and
situations into some categories in their minds.
Virgo tries to create order on the outside, but in the inside
often gets quickly into a disordered state of mind, filled with
many details to sort out. Pisces see things typically very
clearly, but their outside lives can be quite chaotic. This also
fits with how the two signs relate to drugs: Virgo avoids them in
order to gain clarity in her mind; Pisces are happy to have
something that allows them to escape the clarity inside.
2b. Leo/Aquarius (dry/wet)
Leo appears egoistic in the outside world, not ready for much
compromise and also rather conservative when it comes to changing
things in the outside world, at least as far as daily life would
be affected. Aquarius is altruistic towards others in the outside
world and also progressive, wants things to evolve constantly in
the world. In the inside, things are reversed. Aquarius
compromises quite a bit to find a goal for outside progress with
which everybody will agree. Consequently, the goal is something
which is not very progressive or new, since then people would
tend to disagree. This makes Aquarius mentally rather
conservative. The egoism comes about because Aquarius dares to
define, as an individual, what others should then realize. Even
though he compromises a lot on the goal, this is still being
egoistic in the inside. Leo, in turn, has quite a free mind and
tries to find out special solutions that, if realized, would be a
lot better than current reality, at the expense of being much
harder to promote on the outside.
2c. Capricorn/Cancer (dry/wet)
Capricorn is very well structured on the outside, both in space
and time (planing). But inside, he typically follows several
plans, in order to force decisions. That duality requires quite a
bit of complexity in the head, as there are more possibilities
that could happen than that will happen outside in reality.
Cancer, in turn, tends to lean on emotionally to structures that
protect him, i.e. he adheres psychologically, inside to structures
and ways of thinking that are simple and structured. This, in
turn, allows him to create complex things in the outside world,
exactly because his thinking is so simple.
2d. Sagittarius/Gemini (dry/wet)
Sagittarius has a great overview of how the outside world is. He
spends lots of time in order to explore many things he can see
and is always an interested observer of what others do. Gemini,
in turn, like to learn a lot from books, they try to get a good
overview of what has been going on in people's minds. Sagittarius
plans little about what to do when in the outside world, but
spends a lot of time about planning what to say and about the
few, crucial, things that he will keep to himself. Gemini make
concrete plans what to do when in reality, but in their minds,
they tend to wander off quickly to different interesting topics,
what Sagittarius does rather in reality.
2e. Taurus/Scorpio (dry/wet)
Taurus tries to find out how things really are in reality, he
likes to actually look at things and touch them. He also likes to
make things in reality, on the outside, beautiful and harmonic.
Scorpio, on the other hand, likes to go to the bottom of things
psychologically, also with the intent to remove things that are
not harmonic in people's psyches, in order also to increase
harmony and beauty, but in the inside.
Scorpio tries to get others to do things in the direction he
wants in reality, but psychologically goes deep himself. Taurus
is doing things in the outside world by himself, but is also
hesitant to go deep psychologically.
2f. Aries/Libra (dry/wet)
Aries tries to break up existing unfair structures in the outside
world. In the outside world, he argues by reality, by mentioning
directly observable and touchable facts. Science is based on hard
facts. But the mathematical formulas that describe science, the
thinking inside science is very abstract. Libra, in turn, is
publicly arguing with quite abstract arguments, with that some
things should be balanced, symmetric, should have some abstract
beauty. But, from the inside, that is based on some very direct
and concrete observations of how the world is.
Concluding Remarks
The idea that opposite signs of the zodiac focus in/out,
respectively, came to me this morning, when I was still half
asleep. Since this is a very rapid communication, I may have
assigned some opposites the wrong way round. Moreover, the sun is
currently in Libra, so things have probably not been thought
through to the end. However, by communicating this, I am also
potentially allowing more people to do that, hence publishing in
this form makes sense (note that this was a Libra-style
argument:).
Modern particle physics shows a large influence from Aries (which
is probably at least partially because modern science has largely
been created by scientists of Jewish origin, with Jewish religion
being from the age of Aries). I think that psychology can be done
the same way, by having symmetry groups and spontaneous symmetry
breaking to get from dry/wet and hot/cold via the zodiac to
various myths and (cultural) reality. In addition, the study of
different cultures, like Chinese and Indian, might shed some
interesting new light on what is culture and what is more
universal.
Acknowledgements
I would like to thank Werner Held for some discussions by e-mail
and for the texts he wrote [2]. I think it was through that
interaction that I got the idea that in/out can be identified
with wet/dry. Furthermore, some discussions on newsgroups,
especially on alt.astrology.moderated, have probably helped me to
get to the idea presented here, although this process was very
probably not conscious to me nor to the other participants -
thanks in any case!
References
[1] [me]. A few new discoveries in physics.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
[2] Werner Held. Die 1 und die 2. [and more texts].
http://people.freenet.de/soleil7
[...]
--
Link to this post archived at Google groups:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-B71E28.07514428092002%40news.bluewin.ch
Ray Murphy wrote:
[...]
: RM: This sounds like Rob Hand's explanation of 20 years ago where he
: suggested that astrology might just be 'magic', and that we have all
: collectively turned astrological belief into reality.
Actually, the first sketch for my post involved quoting Robert
Hand, namely the label "shrinking transformation" that he gave
to the Saturn-Pluto cycle in his article in the Mountain
Astrologer Magazine that appeared in the Aug/Sep 2001 issue
and was posted on the web on 29 September 2001, very likely
connected to 9/11 and thus the three Saturn-Pluto oppositions
of 2001 and 2002. This "shrinking transformation" that thus
affects my document very much (it was written in 2001/2002)
makes it difficult to recognize the beautiful seeds in it,
because they have shrunk so much, at least in the short run.
Here is a link to Robert Hand's article "A Crisis of Power,
Saturn and Pluto Face Off":
http://www.mountainastrologer.com/planettracks/hand/hand.html
But your quote is certainly the wiser choice, especially in
the long run...
> I'll keep crunching the numbers anyway and see if I can find (besides
> the Gauquelin findings).any sort of correlation between planetary
> movement and the affairs of life-forms.
Since I am a physicist, I naturally agree that a proof by
numbers is something valuable. I don't see astrology in the
21st century in the shadows for much longer (on the scale of
decades, not years).
Maybe one of articles of the selection that I presented could
be helpful for your attempts:
226 Themes and Experiment
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s226.html
The idea is to focus rather on "themes" than on "yes/no".
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
The article below has first been posted to alt.astrology.moderated
in September 2002.
Hope you like it,
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
--
Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
It is now more than 20 years since the beginning of psychological
astrology. Combining psychology and astrology has proven to be
very useful and has yielded many deeper insights into astrology.
However, approaching and learning psychological astrology is not
an easy task. Each student has to learn to use and understand
many archetypal pictures and how they are related to star signs,
planets, etc.
In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
after the other and explain things as I go along.
Fire
One basic archetype for Fire is simply a burning fire. There are
three fire signs, Aries, Leo and Sagittarius; they come after
each other in that order in the zodiac. Now, a fire starts with
lots of wood and little flames and smoke, then in the middle, it
burns full force until, finally, almost no wood is left and lots
of smoke has gone up into the air. Let's look at things very
basically: Wood is solid, so it is a form of Earth, whereas Smoke
is a form of Air. So, in this very basic view, a burning fire
transforms Earth to Air.
Now, the idea is that the three Fire signs symbolize the three
different phases of a burning fire. Aries is an early fire that
consists mainly of Earth (wood) and has produced little Air
(smoke) yet. Leo is a fully burning fire with ample amounts of
Earth and Air, Sagittarius consists only of little Earth but lots
of Air. Now, let me connect this to psychology.
Earth stands for reality and it also stands for the human body.
Why does Earth stand for the human body ? Well, Earth produces
plants that then feed animals. Similarly, the body of a woman
produces new life too, namely a child. Air stands for the mind,
for language. Now, one important difference between Earth and Air
is that the human body is mortal, but creations of the mind can
be written down or taught to the next generation, so Air is
immortal while Earth is mortal.
Fire itself stands psychologically for the imaginary power to
visualize how things could or should be. So, Fire transforms
mortal Earth into immortal Air. The human body and especially its
brain produces by imagination timeless, immortal thoughts that
can be given on to later generations.
Several psychological properties of the Fire signs can be
understood from that, for example:
a) secrecy/openness: If you are immortal, you can afford to be
open, since nothing can really affect you too much then. So
Sagittarius is often open whereas Aries tries to keep things
secret until he is sure he can defend them. Leo is in between,
has to decide for each issue whether to be frank about it or not.
b) wound: Psychological astrology connects Sagittarius for
example to the centaur Chiron that is accidentally wounded with a
poisoned arrow from his friend Heracles. The arrow contains
deadly poison so that Chiron suffers deadly pains, but since he
is immortal, he cannot die, until he later is allowed into the
underworld by Zeus in exchange for Prometheus. So, how is this
connected to a burning fire ? Very directly, since Fire burns
wood (Earth), so it wounds the physical mortal body. Since
Sagittarius is mainly made of immortal Air, the wound is bigger
in him than in Leo or Aries, but he still cannot die from it.
Psychologically, the wound also stands for consideration of the
other. Aries is quite egoistically, he is not wounded much and
also cannot afford to much altruism since he has to protect his
own mortality. Leo typically starts out in life just like Aries,
but typically later in life has to learn to show and feel
consideration for other people's feelings and needs. Sagittarius
typically learns that already earlier. He can afford to be
altruistic even if that is painful because people will take
advantage of it, but in the end that cannot hurt his immortal
soul.
Let me stop here from giving more examples for Fire, so that the
text remains readable without being superficial. Before we go to
Water, let me connect the transition of the Fire signs, namely
Earth-Fire-Air, to the philosophy of Aristotle. He viewed the
four elements to be composed of two pairs of properties: hot/cold
and dry/wet. The four elements are composed as follows:
Fire: hot+dry
Earth: cold+dry
Air: hot+wet
Water: cold+wet
From that model, he described how elements can be transformed
into each other, namely by changing one of these properties at a
time. So, you can go from Earth to Fire by making Earth hot (and
keeping it dry), then you can go to Air by making Fire wet (and
keeping it hot). This gives a closed circle: You can make Air
cold to get Water and then make Water dry to arrive back at Earth
again.
So, the Fire signs are part of that circle, just as the other
signs are, as I will try to show below.
Water
One archetypal image for Water is how it can transform from ice
to liquid water and then evaporate. So, his is again a transition
from Earth (ice) to Air (evaporated water), only this time it
goes through Water and not Fire. In other words, the transforming
power is feelings, not imagination.
Just as for the Fire signs above, the first Water sign, Cancer,
is made mainly of Earth (ice) and little Air (evaporated air),
Scorpio contains roughly equal amounts of Earth and Air, and,
finally, Pisces are mainly made of Air and little Earth. Now,
lets get into psychology again.
When something melts and evaporates, boundaries are removed,
things are allowed to mix with each other. This explains why
Cancer is so protective, why he tries to be secure of intrusion
into his shell (a solid border, or, in other words, Earth).
Scorpio is still suspicious and has to protect himself from pain,
the shell is still partially there, but he is also ready to give
in and to penetrate into others if he feels that this is
necessary. Pisces are mainly immortal Air, so nothing can really
hurt them anymore, they quite freely mix with all kinds of people
and other influences.
Let me extend on these meanings by giving three additional
archetypes for Water. Both derive from the basic archetype above.
Rivers originate in the mountains from springs, then flow down as
rivers while merging into larger rivers and flowing into the sea,
from where the water eventually evaporates (and then falls back
onto earth in the form of rain to feed the sources in the
mountains again). This is the circle of water. The source in the
mountains corresponds to Cancer, because it is the beginning of
the circle, but also because in the mountains it is colder than
below, there are often snow and ice (glaciers), which are forms
of Earth. Scorpio stands then for a river that flows down and
melts with other rivers. Pisces stand for the sea.
This fits very well with the impulsive creativity of Cancer,
where sometimes something just has to come out, or with Scorpio's
need to extend its influence, like the rivers that merge, or
simply with the many associations that connect Pisces to the sea.
Before I mention another piece of mythology, let me give the
other two archetypes.
The three fates stand for three phases in the life of a woman and
also for the three phases of the moon. Cancer, again because it
is the first Water sign in the zodiac, stands for a girl, Scorpio
for an adult woman and Pisces for an old woman. What defines
these three phases is the ability to have children. A young girl
cannot have children yet, whereas an old woman cannot have
children any more. This is also how the connection to the three
phases of the moon comes about: The phase around full moon shows
a round and full moon, which is similar to the round belly of a
pregnant woman. The two phases of the moon before that and after
that correspond to girl and old woman. The fourth phase when the
moon is not visible at all is a rest phase that is not really
included in this picture.
To make things complete, let me give another piece of mythology
that is typically correlated with Cancer (and Scorpio). Heracles
is fighting the monster Hydra in the swamps which had been sent
by Hera. The Hydra has 9 heads, and whenever Heracles chops off
one head, 3 others grow back. Only when he not only chops off the
heads, but also burns the stumps, does he succeed in winning the
fight. He almost lost the fight because of a crab that had been
sent by Hera too that bit Heracles into the foot while he was
fighting the Hydra. Heracles stomped the crab, but Hera gave the
crab a place in the sky as the star sign Cancer because the crab
was so loyal to her.
The interpretation of this myth is typically about the relation
between mother and child. This is most clearly seen from the fact
that Heracles means "Fame of Hera". Let me analyze further what
you see here on the elementary symbolic level. As usual, all the
proponents in the myth symbolize some aspects of Cancer, not only
the crab, but also Heracles, Hera, the Hydra, the swamps, etc.
The numbers 3 and 9=3x3 relate to the three fates. The element
Water is typically passive, water just flows down, never up. That
is the role of the crab, to bite the hero into the foot so that
he leaves his shell and cares for the things that are hurting the
mother Hera, symbolized by the nine-headed Hydra. The hero not
only has to chop off the heads to remove what hurts, but also to
heal the wounds by burning the stumps so that no new heads grow
back.
Pisces are connected to everything, since they have mixed all the
water, they care about everybody and everything, but Cancer has
not mixed much yet, mostly cares about a few close friends and
family. Sometimes the "mother", which is the unconscious
background of all the influences that had flown into the sea and
which form the water that comes out of the spring; sometimes the
"mother" has to hurt the "child" a bit to make it care for
something outside of itself.
I hope that I could convey the way of thinking about these things
a bit. It is essentially quite simple. You just look for
properties that are equal or similar between different
archetypes, like numbers that appear in them or the fact that
something is separated or mixed, etc. So, maybe you will allow me
to go through the remaining two elements a bit more quickly now.
Air
One important archetypal image is a cloud. A thunderstorm
typically starts out with lightning and thunder, when it is going
on full-force, there is lightning and rain, and, finally, the
storm ends will mostly rain and almost no lightning. So, we have
lightning (Fire) at the beginning and rain (Water) in the end.
Accordingly, Gemini, the first Air sign, is composed mainly of
Fire and only little Water, Libra of roughly equal amounts of
Fire and Water, and Aquarius mainly of Water and only little
Fire.
Lightning and fire are quick and unpredictable, this fits well
with Gemini. Rain is constant and falls in equal amounts on
everybody, this fits well with the altruism of Aquarius and the
fact that he is a fixed sign. Similarly to the Water signs, this
can also be seen as three stages in the life of a man (Air is a
male element). Children are quick and unpredictable, they can
change their moods from very unhappy to very happy within
seconds. Old men, in contrast, tend to become somewhat immobile
in their thinking and only open for new things that are not too
new, but, of course, they can compensate for part of this by
their greater experience.
A child has to learn how the world behaves by playing, by looking
at things from different sides. The first time you see a coin,
you only see pictures from different sides. It takes work in the
brain to connect these pictures into a single, abstract object
that is then given a name, "coin". The older you get, the more
things in the world are recognized to be just different sides of
the same things. For children there are more things than for
adults. The more you learn, the more transparent things become,
they become transparent like rain (Water).
Earth
One important archetypal image is the tree. It is made of wood
(Earth). In order to grow, a tree needs essentially two things,
light from the sun (Fire) from above and Water from its roots
below the surface. The transition is Fire-Earth-Water. The first
Earth sign of the zodiac, Taurus, is composed essentially of
Fire, Virgo of roughly equal amounts of Fire and Water, and
Capricorn essentially of Water.
The roots of the tree which feed it with Water symbolize the
structure that keeps the tree from falling down during its whole
life. What is visible from the tree from the outside, where the
sun (Fire) shines, namely leaves, flowers and fruits are more
beautiful, but also short-lived. They reappear every year.
Accordingly, for Taurus beauty is more important than structure,
whereas for Capricorn it is the other way round. Virgo is in
between. She has to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to go
for more order or more beauty. It is worthwhile to explore why
popular astrology typically describes Virgo as well-ordered while
in reality that should be attributed rather to Capricorn. The
main reason is that order is a big issue for Virgo because there
is the conflict with beauty, whereas for Capricorn such a
conflict does not exist. In addition, Virgo often has a tendency
to exaggerate, to go either for more or less order that she can
live with for a long time. It is often only a bit later in life
that Virgo learns to balance these opposite needs.
Summary
Astrology is a complex, organic structure. No simple model can
fully reproduce its richness. Nonetheless, like any living
organism, astrology has some bones, some structures that are
almost always the same in all individuals. I hope this text has
given sufficient indication that there actually are such simple
structures in astrology. They can be helpful in many ways:
Astrologers can gain a more structured view of archetypes and
they can maybe more easily explain some astrological concepts to
their clients. Access to psychological astrology becomes easier.
This can help many people to help themselves in lighter cases,
sort of as "prescription-free" medication in astrology. (In
analogy, if you just have a light cold, there is typically no
need to see a doctor, practically everybody knows quite well
what to do in that case).
But the simplicity of the model of the model presented above
might also have more far-reaching consequences. It is so simple
that even scientists could easily learn it and compare its
predictions with psychological reality. That would probably lead
to general acceptance of astrology and make it branch of science
again, after 300 years of separation.
[...]
--
Link to original post archived at Google groups:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=astalder-B3941C.06261208092002%40news.dplanet.ch
Lisa Eclipse Astrology wrote:
: Great, now I know who to credit! :-) In Native American mythology, it
: was Spider who created their alphabet, and therefore language. However,
: spiders are ruled by Saturn (as is number 8). Having Gemini rising and
: Mercury Rx in Capricorn, I guess I can see how these two tie together!
: Thanks again )o+ and I will catch you later!
Might be a few hundred or even thousand years until
the next time a Grand Quintile (Hermes-5) and a Lunar
Eclipse (Lisa *Eclipse* Astrology) will meet again...
I go with Odysseus at the end of Plato's Republic.
2|'s messenger
(thanks rog, for the cool glyph!)
Alois Treindl wrote:
: Alan Murphy wrote:
:
: >
: > No, it'll be a local program, programmed in Java. The only linking to PCs or
: > the internet will be to load the program onto the phone :)
: >
:
: You are certainly aware that the really difficult part of all software
: is the user interface (input from the user, output to the user,
: navigation around the program and its features).
:
: The smaller the device, the harder the user interface is to do well.
:
: This is where you need the most software engineering experience, and the
: best concepts.
Actually, that was the main reason I froze development of Delphi
for PalmOS about two years ago. When I had started out in 2000,
all devices had screens with 160x160 pixels. It was hard to get
a readable chart drawing onto such a small screen, but I think
I managed to achieve that, combined with the idea to let people
focus with their pens onto planets/houses/signs etc. and then
only to show the relevant parts of the chart.
Today, there are all kinds of screen sizes, with different
resolutions and formats. Very difficult to write a program that
would fit all sizes. They all emulate the 160x160 mode for old
programs written for PalmOS 4.x and older (PalmOS 5 and later
use a different CPU), though, so that Delphi continues to work
essentially on all devices that emulate PalmOS <5 correctly.
: In comparison, calculation is trivial. You simply use a toolbox like
: Thomas Mack's Java port of Swiss Ephemeris, provided you have a full JRE
: (java run time engine) in your phone device.
:
: http://www.th-mack.de/international/download/index.html for the english
: description.
:
: According to Thomas Mack, the Java bytecode is less than 300 kb, and in
: Moshier ephemeris mode you need no (!) ephemeris data files, provided
: you don't insist in including asteroids.
I guess that is likely so for today's Java ME devices. Let me
share a little bit of the problems I was faced with in 2000:
If Swiss Ephemeris had fit into a PalmOS device, I would have
used it. But even with the much simpler routines that I ended
up using, I had had to split up complex calculations and to
use static variables instead of local ones, because otherwise
the very small stack of these devices would overflow.
The only freely available timezone information that I could
find, was the data that is used by UNIX workstations to set
date and time. I wrote my own routines to compress and determine
timezones and later entered longitude and latitude of more than
2000 additional places mostly by hand. Today, I would probably
rather try to use the existing code for accessing the timezone
data, although the code seemed very hard to read for me then.
There were about a million more problems and limitations. I wrote
my own functions for drawing dotted lines and circles, extended
the lousy, completely non-standard printf options by what I needed,
designed the astrological glyphs, and so on... -- all in all I
estimate that I invested more than 1000 work hours into it. Not
something that I am likely to do again as a hobby anytime soon.
: I have no idea how to get software into a mobile phone, and I think you
: will have a full time job for the rest of your life to keep up with the
: ever changing phone models and their peculiarities.
:
: I personally would stay away from such a project and concentrate on
: remote http based services for portable devices. You can safely assume
: that the price of connectivity and bandwidth is coming down further and
: further over the years. The beauty of a server based approach is that
: you need only ONE working copy of your software on only ONE machine,
: which you can control to 100%. Your users just use the standard browser
: already built into their devices, and you are not responsible for its
: quirks.
:
: I think trying to put sophisticated software into a small portable
: device is futile, in a world where all devices can connect to remote
: services. You also don't try to put a weather forecasting atmospheric
: model into your portable phone, but call up a weather service.
:
: Of course, my preferences in programming are my own. You may have
: different ones. Suum cuique.
I agree. With Neptune in Aquarius for another 6 years, that seems
to be where things are heading, and devices will likely continue to
merge and transform a lot during that time. So, anybody interested
in catching a large audience (with a free or a commercial service)
will probably have to go that way. And doing so will certainly be
an interesting, challenging job (a lot better than my daytime job,
for example).
On a personal level (sun and AC in Leo), however, I would love to
have an astrological clock some day, a small self-contained device,
with no network connection necessary, that would simply display a
current chart and maybe indicate some transits.
delphi29@excite.com (aka AlainStalder)
Very impressive and beautiful, thanks! :)
I have )o+ conjunct Plato's 2| (although mine is already in Leo
and it is very slightly retrograde and is at my AC, in the 12th
(which to my sorrow reminds a bit of 9/11, one could consider
it conjunct rather with the "13th house cusp" than the first).
And I have my southern node and )|( conjunct Plato's Saturn.
The recent flood of posts by me that just arrived in one rush
now, is because the news server kept them apparently all hostage
for several days (that is all that have a message id that contains
"bluewin.ch", not the ones that contain "sunrise.ch"). The first
one that did not make it through was posted 23 Oct, at 7:05 am
Zurich (5:05 UTC), when the moon was at the end of Aquarius and
almost exactly trine the sun. What happened ? Was it the void of
course moon in Pisces ? Or what else ?
Any insights are appreciated.
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
In article <QFRfd.50593$l07.24822@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
"Pedantus" <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not that whole lot of people are interested, but using my assumption that
> persons often project 'parallels' of portions of their natal chart, in the
> form of their creative efforts, I did perform an experiment, using Plato as
> a subject. This was just a mater of sketching my impressions of likely
> natal aspect patterns that occurred appropriate to me while reading Plato's,
> "Allegory of the Cave". I did this primarily to show off for my wife's
> amusement...as well, probably in answer to some kind of challenge she had
> playfully posed (she never being one to destroy my delicate ego
> purposefully). Anyway, I placed as many slow moving planets, in aspects, as
> I could conjure from the imagery of the text.
> The core aspect of my suggested pattern was Sun conjunct Pluto and
> opposite Jupiter, and perhaps Neptune in Aries, probably trine Jupiter, as
> the transcendent spirit of philosophy and 'images' of ineffable. Also on
> my shopping list of possible aspects was the notion of Sun quintile Saturn
> as this is my best aspect ideation of Plato's "Forms". Using the handy
> animation feature of Astrolog, I Then proceeded to search for my patterns
> 'clues' from the ephemeris data of some long past, starting at about -800.
> Frankly I had no idea of Plato's dates, and this fact has come to please me
> a great deal, for I found the pattern I was looking for in January -428,
> whatever the month may have been called at the time...:)
> Using Alois' wonderful Astrodienst website chart facility , this is
> what I have settled on:
> http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?rs=3;btyp=w2gw;cid=tk7filekbZ9oO-u1065628431&nhor=3
>
> To my great pleasure, I see that Plato's birth is cited as either -427
> or -428, by about an even margin. Hey, what if he were born at the
> beginning of -428 , that could probably be a source for some uncertainty.
> Even if I'm off a bit somewhere, no one can take away from the great feeling
> that something is right about astrology, for how else could I pick my
> planets in aspects, and have them show up in the unknown target year.
> Skeptics may see the selection of the correct year as function of
> probabilities, and or unconscious memories of dates....but the can never
> explain away my apparent awareness of the target aspect, specifically my
> core idea of Sun conjunct Pluto--opposite Jupiter. Probability explanations,
> at the level of complexity, are definitely beyond my comprehension....I find
> the odds of just getting lucky rather unthinkable...:)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rog
(reply no. 2)
I hope you permit -- I looked at a few more exotic objects in
that chart and what I associated with them (sort of like reading
the I Ching; after all it was Hermes who invented some forms of
divination...).
Lilith is almost exactly at the southern node, in the middle of
Cancer. As far as I know, Plato's Republic is very popular for
a book of that age, especially in the US, topped, I guess, only
by the bible (and newer books, of course). So, might show a link
to the USA and to Republicans (because of Republic).
Quaoar is at 3 Taurus, conjunct the northern node now, and also
conjunct Mars in my discoveries.pdf document (5 March 2002, 0:05
Zurich, 23:05 UTC (previous day)). The moon is at 12 Taurus and
conjunct my father's sun (who first brought me into contact with
philosophy while sitting in a chairlift while skiing and he told
me the Cave Allegory with ants in a cave, observing the shadows
of the chairlifts and the people in it would make on the snow
in front of the cave... (he has Jupiter in Sagittarius).
Sedna is at 20 Sagittarius, where currently Pluto is.
Thanks again! :)
)o+
(PS: The historical year might be one year off from the one that
you entered for the chart, because of the year 0, or maybe things
are even more complicated; as said above, that is not my main
interest in the chart... I hope I am not spoiling anything.)
In article <QFRfd.50593$l07.24822@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
"Pedantus" <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not that whole lot of people are interested, but using my assumption that
> persons often project 'parallels' of portions of their natal chart, in the
> form of their creative efforts, I did perform an experiment, using Plato as
> a subject. This was just a mater of sketching my impressions of likely
> natal aspect patterns that occurred appropriate to me while reading Plato's,
> "Allegory of the Cave". I did this primarily to show off for my wife's
> amusement...as well, probably in answer to some kind of challenge she had
> playfully posed (she never being one to destroy my delicate ego
> purposefully). Anyway, I placed as many slow moving planets, in aspects, as
> I could conjure from the imagery of the text.
> The core aspect of my suggested pattern was Sun conjunct Pluto and
> opposite Jupiter, and perhaps Neptune in Aries, probably trine Jupiter, as
> the transcendent spirit of philosophy and 'images' of ineffable. Also on
> my shopping list of possible aspects was the notion of Sun quintile Saturn
> as this is my best aspect ideation of Plato's "Forms". Using the handy
> animation feature of Astrolog, I Then proceeded to search for my patterns
> 'clues' from the ephemeris data of some long past, starting at about -800.
> Frankly I had no idea of Plato's dates, and this fact has come to please me
> a great deal, for I found the pattern I was looking for in January -428,
> whatever the month may have been called at the time...:)
> Using Alois' wonderful Astrodienst website chart facility , this is
> what I have settled on:
> http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?rs=3;btyp=w2gw;cid=tk7filekbZ9oO-u1065628431&nhor=3
>
> To my great pleasure, I see that Plato's birth is cited as either -427
> or -428, by about an even margin. Hey, what if he were born at the
> beginning of -428 , that could probably be a source for some uncertainty.
> Even if I'm off a bit somewhere, no one can take away from the great feeling
> that something is right about astrology, for how else could I pick my
> planets in aspects, and have them show up in the unknown target year.
> Skeptics may see the selection of the correct year as function of
> probabilities, and or unconscious memories of dates....but the can never
> explain away my apparent awareness of the target aspect, specifically my
> core idea of Sun conjunct Pluto--opposite Jupiter. Probability explanations,
> at the level of complexity, are definitely beyond my comprehension....I find
> the odds of just getting lucky rather unthinkable...:)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rog
(reply no. 3)
One more: At alt.astrology.tropical there is a post
by Pete about Juno (in Synastry). In Plato's chart,
Juno is at 20 Taurus, conjunct my northern node.
And I know somebody who has Juno at 25 Taurus, the
one who was the (imagined or real) reason for my
discoveries... And if my (real or imagined) birth
time for her is correct, the n.node - Juno reception
is mutual.
Thanks Pete.
Only trickster patient enough to get me... ;)
)o+
20 Jan -428 greg
0:03
Athens, Greece
Pedantus wrote:
: PS I hear from Pedantus Plodalongicus that he doesn't much trust his shirt
: tale cousin Hemes, something about him buzzing around all over the
: place...:)
It may not look like it, but for me with Saturn in Pisces, it is
a lot of hard work to maintain just two personalities at the same
time in usenet ("Hermes" and "Delphi Twentine"). With sun in Leo
and moon in Aries, I always know who, where, and when I am, even
though I cannot exclude that this is an illusion. Best wishes.
I wrote:
: Argument 1: Justice.
:
: The 2000 election was very close. Everybody agrees that
: both candidates got almost 50% of the votes. The 2004
: election will again very likely be very close. If this
: time the same party would win again, that would create
: great resentments in the country that would not be good
: for the USA in almost all imaginable ways.
Will depend on how close the election will be: A relatively
clear republican victory, without the army of laywers that
both parties have ready, could even have the reverse effect.
: Argument 2: The Nodes.
The nodes could wait.
The winner is:
I don't know. Hard to predict in a country with a retrograde
Mercury and the sun in Cancer. I was apparently just testing
the water (Neptune and s.node in Scorpio, and sun now there).
Since I share rMercury and Jupiter/Venus in Cancer with the
USA, choosing a postmaster and a seal for the country before
making the decision to become an independent country final,
seems natural to me. Also waiting two days after deciding
to break off from GB and even putting the matter to the end
of the session, seems natural to me. Also that one of two
brothers (Sibley's) would come up with the "right" chart
for the "wrong" reasons, feels normal to me. But, of course,
I am again arguing backwards from a specific chart.
But how would you explain the fact that Americans are always
on the move, without a moon in Aquarius ???
I remain curious.
Damned biquintiles. rMercury squared!
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy)
--
Hey, I may be driven and a bit playful, but I hope you can
all also see the (maybe a bit blunt) precision of my natal
Uranus-Pluto conjunction in Virgo. For completeness, here
is (again) my birth data:
7 August 1966, 04:12 Zurich Switzerland (03:12 UTC)
I did not choose to make the discoveries I made and I would
be very, very happy if somebody would have the guts to do
for me what I am just barely able to do, namely to promote
them:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
That process of "reverse publication", where things gradually
get clearer and cleared to the public, very similar to how the
USA became independent, is very painful for me and is certainly
not my preferred path. But alone, there is not much that I can
do against it.
AlainStalder, Dipl. Phys ETH, Dr. rer. nat. (PhD in physics)
I wrote:
: The recent flood of posts by me that just arrived in one rush
: now, is because the news server kept them apparently all hostage
: for several days (that is all that have a message id that contains
: "bluewin.ch", not the ones that contain "sunrise.ch"). The first
: one that did not make it through was posted 23 Oct, at 7:05 am
: Zurich (5:05 UTC), when the moon was at the end of Aquarius and
: almost exactly trine the sun. What happened ? Was it the void of
: course moon in Pisces ? Or what else ?
:
: Any insights are appreciated.
I guess, Dayel Kirk's post* says it all: The USA's progressed sun
is just about to enter Pisces. So it was conjunct the moon at the
moment of my first post that got stuck. Thanks.
(Since that is also at a quincunx to my Mercury, it might be wiser
to ask someone with Mercury placed elsewhere about election results).
* <818acded.0410271354.a483c6b@posting.google.com>
Hi Pete, thanks a million for this one.
I hope you don't mind: Here is what I just posted to aam
in reply to a post by Pedantus titled "Plato for Hermes"...
: (reply no. 3)
:
: One more: At alt.astrology.tropical there is a post
: by Pete about Juno (in Synastry). In Plato's chart,
: Juno is at 20 Taurus, conjunct my northern node.
: And I know somebody who has Juno at 25 Taurus, the
: one who was the (imagined or real) reason for my
: discoveries... And if my (real or imagined) birth
: time for her is correct, the n.node - Juno reception
: is mutual.
:
: Thanks Pete.
:
: Only trickster patient enough to get me... ;)
:
: )o+
In article <hYNfd.152$451.83@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
"Pete" <me@myname999999.fleaswerve.co.aq> wrote:
> Hi all,
> most of you who know me know that my astrological interests are pretty
> eclectic ( with the Sun-ruler in Gemini that's hardly surprising!). My main
> focus for the past few years has been on the more traditional approach to
> chart interpretation, but I do from time to time keep a door open to more
> modern approaches and techniques.For instance, I've got Solar Fire
> configured to include the asteroid Juno in my chart work, as I've noticed
> that it seems to have no little influence in synastry.
> In Roman mythology, Juno was the wife of Jupiter and was worshipped as the
> protectress of marriage and women. Under the epithet 'Juno Moneta', she was
> also the goddess of finance. (It's where our word "money" comes from). Her
> Greek equivalent is Hera, wife of Zeus.
> For those interested, a good astrological definition of Juno's astrological
> influence can be found here: http://goddess.astrology.com/juno/index.html
>
> There seems, according to the asteroid enthusiasts, to be a connection
> between Juno and marriage - or at least to "loyalty, fidelity, intimacy,
> monogamy...", so out of curiosity I recently took a look at Juno's position
> on the dates of my two marriages.
> The first date shows t. Juno exactly on my AS/MC midpoint axis, so I'd call
> that a definite hit (my first wife's Juno is exactly sextile my own, for
> good measure, and on my SO/VE midpoint). The second date has t. Juno at 13
> Aquarius, just 30' arc past opposition to my natal Juno, which incidentally
> falls in my 9th house of ceremonies. Incidentally, the synastry with my
> second wife is just as interesting as that with my first: her Juno falls
> exactly on my asc-ruler, while my Juno falls on her SO/MO midpoint.
> So anyway, further intrigued, and having established to my own satisfaction
> that Juno seems connected to the concept of marriage - or at least to strong
> emotional committments and bonds between partners - I decided to look at the
> Juno synastry between myself and my partner. What I saw made me sit up and
> look twice, because the synastry seems nothing short of amazing. Take a
> look:
>
> Me: Her:
> Juno: 12 Leo 59' Juno: 13 Libra 52'
> " " Venus: 12 Gemini 15'
> " " Asc: 09 Leo 35'
> " " North Node: 12 Libra 58'
> Juno/Vertex: 13 Can 45' Juno: 13 Libra 52'
>
> The implications are interesting, no? If it were just the links between my
> Juno and her chart it would be enough to describe the feeling of mutual
> happiness and sense of genuine comfortable familiarity we feel with each
> other, but there are also other inter-aspects that add richness to the mix,
> viz: an exact Moon-Venus trine, her Sun close to my 7th cusp, an exact
> sextile between the two Saturns, my Sun falling on the composite 7th cusp,
> and the composite Juno falling on my VE/MC midpoint.
> Taken together, this seems like a powerful array of connections, but it's
> the Juno inter-aspects that fascinate me the most, especially the mutual
> sextile, as it shows that we're synchronised into the Juno cycle, and any
> transit of Juno will therefore trigger both our charts simultaneously.
>
> I've checked previous partnership-related events in both our lives and this
> seems to have held true, so now I'm looking ahead to next year when t.Juno
> reaches 12-13 Aquarius in January, and 12-13 Gemini in September. The first
> position coincides with my second marriage, remember, while the latter
> position coincides exactly with her first, so these forthcoming transits
> look intriguing to say the least! :)
>
> Just thought I'd share this with you all. I found these Juno links to be
> fascinating and very appropriate to the two of us.
> I'll keep you posted... :)
> ==
> Pete
I would like to tentatively connect "Hobby" with the 5th
house and "Work" with the 7th, and especially the house
cups, and applied, as an example, to me personally.
Of course, these will also indirectly say (by "thinking
laterally") something about quintiles (1/5 of circle)
and septiles, as well as about Mercury (planet no. 5 in
my suggested planet numbering) and Saturn (obviously
planet no. 7, because it is the last visible planet).
The cusp of my 7th house is at 2 Aquarius. My whole 7th
house is in Aquarius. My typical situation at work is to
solve some rather technical problems, always with the
intention of producing something that is useful for
"society" or at least for many people. Originally, that
was research, the previous 7 years it was software that
uses smart cards (credit card sized cards with a chip
on them that contains a micorprocessor and memory).
These cards can be used to store cryptographic keys
and use them on-card, so that secrets can be used but
never have to leave the card. This kind of stuff will
ultimately be used in all kinds of secure communication
using the internet: Signing contracts, voting, etc.
At work, I tend to always go with what the majority
decides. Sure, other parts of me make suggestions of
what to do next (e.g. Jupiter/Mars/Venus in Cancer,
moon in Aries, and also sun in Leo), but I always go
with what the company or whoever I work with, decide
collectively to do next.
My hobby is a different thing. I guess for anybody,
a hobby is something where they do at least some things
"their way" (sort of the American Way of Life), where
people allow themselves to be a bit "excentric" or even
a bit "crazy". And there is the obvious relation of the
5th house to Leo.
With Placidus houses, I have the cusp of the 5th house
at 21 Scorpio, closely conjunct Neptune and the southern
node, which are both still in the 4th. That shows in some
aspects of my spare time. Deep sea diving into the sea of
the collective unconscious is something that is part of
what I do, especially in many usenet posts. But since
there is the general rule, that the nodes tend to produce
things that fit with the sign and house of the northern
node, based on "past experiences" with the southern one,
there is bound that quite a few beautiful and realistic
things (Taurus) will emerge from it at times, that will
become useful for the general public (11th house).
With Koch houses, my 5th house cusp is at 4 Sagittarius.
This gives my hobbies also a clearly philosophical touch.
In fact, for some reason that I do not understand, the
philosophical aspects are more dear to me. Maybe that is
also influenced by the fact that my lot of fortune is at
29 Scorpio, thus conjuct my 5th house cusp with Koch
houses, but not with Placidus houses.
It appears that I change jobs about every 7 years, with
the ingress of Uranus into new signs. So, I am about to
switch again. Similarly to how the USA does things, I have
already bought the paper and printer ink for a large
number of applications, even ordered and got a spiral
binder for binding my applications. This is not stupid,
but by design. Today, there are very little jobs offered
publicly and the ones that are offered specify such a
concrete profile and get so many applications, that the
only job I could get that way, would essentially be the
same I did the previous 7 years, but for a different
company...
The idea is more sagittarian, to write a more general
application that sticks out, already by format, from
the many applications that companies get these day.
The idea is also to let the companies keep it even if
they have no current projects, just to give them the
freedom and time to comtemplate if they want to start
something new, where they might possibly be able to
use somebody like me. With Jupiter (and currently also
Mars and now Venus) in Libra, there appears to be a
good chance that ample opportunities will arise. I am
also gambling a bit, betting on rather Kerry than Bush
winning the elections, which will relieve many people
worldwide and generally spur technological advances
in the private sector. People have been very reluctant
recently with Jupiter in Virgo, have mainly restructured
and made things more efficient, so that I hope that now
there will be opportunities for a careful, precise and
friendly worker, like me (if I may pat my own shoulders
just once a little bit). Maybe fitting with my 7th house
in Aquarius, I also see what I do helpful for society
to some (although very limited) degree. Any person that
switches to a new job in a new field, creates a gap in
the old company and thus opportunities for others to
fill it.
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
Every astrologers knows the obvious associations of the
"trinity" of signs, houses and aspects to numbers:
Number | Star Sign : House : Aspect
----------------------------------------------
1 | Aries : 1 : Conjunction
2 | Taurus : 2 : Opposition
3 | Gemini : 3 : Trine
4 | Cancer : 4 : Square
5 | Leo : 5 : Quintile
6 | Virgo : 6 : Sextile
7 | Libra : 7 : Septile
8 | Scorpio : 8 : Octile
8 | Sagittarius : 9 : Novile
10 | Capricorn : 10 : Decile
11 | Aquarius : 11 : ...
12 | Pisces : 12 : ...
During the recent years, I hope to have identified a few more
very strong associations, quite a few of them in my posts to
alt.astrology.tropical. I am sure most astrologers have seen
all kinds of systems that give, say numbers to planets.
Typically, many schools of astrology have their own system
of this kind. However, I hope that my approach was a little
bit more scientific, based on a broader overview of the world,
associated with Pluto in Sagittarius.*
In the movie "The Matrix", the hero Neo is told by a computer
message to "follow the white rabbit". The door rings and a few
people are outside. One of the guys outside buys some software
from Neo, and then asks Neo if he would like to come with them.
Neo first says no, but when he sees the tatoo of a white
rabbit on the shoulder on one of the girls, he decides to go
with them. That is at the very beginning of the movie.
Similarly, the internet and its search machines provide a great
opportunity to regenerate (Pluto) overview of the world (Sag).
Robert Hand associates Pluto with destruction and regeneration.
A first Google search yields often thousands of links. Following
one of them leads to other, releated issues, to new search terms
that can then be searched with Google again. Thus, very gradually
a new kind of overview emerges and one (re-)learns how Sagittarius
operates, namely with the help also of his messenger (Hermes) that
he sends everywhere and quickly looks at many things, while Zeus
(Jupiter, associated with Sagittarius) observes everything calmly
from Mount Olympus. (This axis was, of course, especially
emphasisized during the recent Saturn-Pluto oppositions).
So, here are my suggestions, with some elementary reasoning why
I think and feel that they are helpful and useful.
Number Element
1 Fire
2 Air
3 Water
4 Earth
5 5th Element, Ether (also Free Will/Fate)
6 Transformation of Air (1+2+3 = 6)
7 Transformation of Fire (4+1+2 = 7)
8 Transformation of Earth (1+4+3 = 8)
9 Transformation of Water (4+3+2 = 9)
10 Transformation of Transformation ?
The meanings of transformations between elements derive from the
archetypes for the elements and their transformations in the
zodiac that I presented my the recent repost "Archetypes for the
Elements and the Zodiac":
Fire: Wood (Earth=4) burns (Fire=1) to smoke (Air=2), thus 4+1+2 = 7
(Aries is mainly Earth, Leo balances Fire/Air, Sag is mainly Air)
Air: A cloud (Air=2) releases lightning (Fire=1) and rain (Water=3), 2+1+3 = 6
(Gemini is mainly Fire, Libra balances Fire/Water, Aquarius is mainly water)
Water: Ice (Earth=4) melts (Water=3) and evaporates (Air=2), 4+3+2 = 9
(Cancer is mainly ice, Scorpio water, Pisces air)
Earth: A tree (Earth=4) needs sun (Fire=1) and water (3) to grow, 4+1+3 = 8
(Taurus is mainly Fire, Virgo balances Fire/Water, Capricorn is mainly water)
Note also that there is a strong relation to Chinese thinking here.
The Book of Changes describes the transformation of reality in 64,
i.e. in 8 x 8 hexagrams. Thus a link to the above translation of the
element Earth is as far fetched, as it might initially appear.
Moreover, the Tao Te Ching (the main and original book of Taoism, by
Lao Tzu), consists of 81 = 9 x 9 parts, fitting well with its more
watery, Neptunian (see table below) symbolism. Finally, there is also
a 6 x 6 matrix in Chinese Culture, namely the 36 Stratagems of War,
that have a clearly more airy touch (and also fit with Jupiter, see
also table below).
Number Planet
1 Sun
2 Moon
3 Venus
4 Mars
5 Mercury
6 Jupiter
7 Saturn
8 Uranus
9 Neptune
10 Pluto
11 ?
12 ?
Actually, I did not invent this order, but found it once on the web,
and somebody there said that this was the order used in antiquity.
But I have never again been able to find that site or even any site
that would list the planets in that order. Very sagittarian, indeed. :)
The key is to put Mercury at number 5, where it fits so well with
the 5th element, the "Philosopher's Stone", the quintessence that
alchemists believed to be what could transform things into other
things, like lead to gold.
The way this planet numbering fits with aspects, is also quite
striking, in my opinion. But before I do that, let me quickly add
another ingredient to the soup (to make things even more striking),
namely the identification of "in/out" with "dry/wet" that I
presented in my recent repost titled "Axes and Opposites":
(many things are drier outside than inside, therefore it is
natural to identify "out" with "dry" and "in" with "wet")
Fire: dry+hot (according to Aristotle) => Fire is out => 1 is out
Air: hot+wet (according to Aristotle) => Air is in => 2 is in
Water: cold+wet (according to Aristotle) => Water is in => 3 is in
Earth: dry+cold (according to Aristotle) => Earth is out => 4 is out
Now, back to planet numbers and aspects:
The sun unifies, merges things with the power of its heat and light.
Similarly, in conjunction, the task is to try to unify the different
views of the involved planets. And it is something qualitatively
rather exterior than interior.
The moon reflects the light of the sun, thus it makes 2 (moon) out
of 1 (sun). And it is internal. Appears to be very similar to what
often happens when planets are in opposition, namely that some
issues that are, in fact, internal, are projected (mirror) outside
onto other people or issues.
Venus, is female, tends to achieve things by letting others do some
things for her, because they value her beauty and the harmony she
spreads when you do something for her. This fits well with the
harmony of Trines, but also with their fatedness and passivity.
Mars, is more active, forces to act. Mars leads to 4, which leads
to Earth, which is external, fitting again well both with Mars
and the basic meaning of Squares.
The others fit very well too, in my opinion, but it would take a bit
longer to expose that in detail here. Let me instead simply present
a few more associations:
Number Month in Year Month's Name Archaic Sign
1 January - Leo
2 February - Virgo
3 March - Libra
4 April - Scorpio
5 May - Sagittarius
6 June - Capricorn
7 July 5 (Quintilius) Aquarius
8 August 6 (Sixtilius) Pisces
9 September 7 Aries
10 October 8 Taurus
11 November 9 Gemini
12 December 10 Cancer
The associations of the months are obvious, while the last
one ("Archaic Signs") is rather difficult to explain convincingly.
It is related to a new way of looking at meanings of astrological
houses, that is based entirely on house numbers, i.e. essentially
on numberology in the way that I exposed it above.
Concretely, the meaning of the first house would emerge from the
meanings associated with the number 1, the meaning of the second
house from meanings associated with the number 2, and so on.
Two quick examples:
The 12th house is associated with "Prisons". Although quite
a few meanings of the 12th house also fit with Pisces, the
12th sign in usual numbering, using the 12th "archaic sign",
Cancer, is also interesting. The "prison" would then be the
protective cell of a crab that both protects and inibits him.
The 8th house would be associated with October (thus also with
Libra), Taurus (fitting for the Axis Taurus-Scorpio that was
prominent in the Age of Taurus, see the Eyptian occupation with
death; this relates also back to Libra, especially to Maat at
the interface of world of the living to the kingdom of the
death, see the chapter about Libra in Liz Greene's "Astrology
of Fate"), the transformation of Earth (life and death and
then maybe reincarnation).
This kind of association can also be loosened up a bit, in a
Sagittarian way, namely by looking at all kinds if things in
life that have the respective number in it.
Two quick examples for that:
In Heracles' 8th labour, one trick consisted of digging a tunnel
(through earth, i.e. transforming earth, 8) in order to connect
two lakes (if I remember correctly). Two lakes with a thin channel
between them look quite a bit like the number 8, and also remind
of the nodes. Thus, also Heracles' 8th labour enriches the meaning
of the 8th house in astrology.
The biblical 7th seal was empty. That fits very well with Saturn,
who does not give anything without something in exchange. That is
also the typical situation at work. First you work, then you get
some money for it.
But, I guess, I am again trying to explain too many things a bit
too quickly. So, let me leave it at that and maybe another time
try to expose the power of "lateral thinking" with respect to
houses. The season of announcements appears to be ending...
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
--
* Note that I am not trying to discredit any astrological schools.
I guess they were created mainly by people from the generation with
Pluto in Leo. And it was exactly them who made the effort to put
their findings onto web sites, thus providing the foundation for
the next generation (Pluto in Virgo, like me) to find a lot more
information, a lot more quickly, than they ever had a chance to.
Thanks!
Chris Mitchell wrote:
[...]
: Alain - I have always marvelled at how neat, compact and yet
: comprehensive Delphi is; I carry my Palm around with me and use it to
: do charts on the fly, and every astrologer I've shown it to has been
: astonished at the clarity of the program, and what good use has been
: made of such a small screen.
:
: As a programmer myself, I'd thought it was a marvel anyway - and now
: to discover that you had to write your own calculation, timezone *and*
: graphic routines just makes it seem even more amazing. I ended up
: buying a Palm precisely because Delphi existed: I had a Psion
: organiser before, and tried writing my own text-only algorithm in OPL
: to print out planet positions, and gave up half way through. The
: ability to produce a chart instantly on a pocket device opens so many
: doors; our astrology group had a discussion on quintiles yesterday -
: and for people who didn't know their own charts, it took a matter of
: seconds to enter their data and tell them what quintiles they had,
: using Delphi.
:
: I'm not surprised that it took a huge amount of effort - and I just
: wanted to say that your efforts are very much appreciated!
Thanks a lot!
To be fair, the core routines for calculating planetary positions with
a resolution of the order of an arc minute are by Paul Schlyter, who
based them on "a preprint of a paper by T. van Flandern and K. Pulkkinen
"Low precision formulae for planetary positions", Astrophysical Journal
Supplement Series, 1980". Here is a link to Paul Schlyter's web site:
http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/english.html
Thanks again,
delphi29@excite.com
Ray Murphy wrote:
[...]
: >On a personal level (sun and AC in Leo), however, I would love to
: >have an astrological clock some day, a small self-contained device,
: >with no network connection necessary, that would simply display a
: >current chart and maybe indicate some transits.
: >
: >delphi29@excite.com (aka AlainStalder)
:
: RM: I made a mechanical device about 10 years ago which *partly*
: addressed this desire.
: It is a 24 hour circular clock with a face about 15 inches in
: diameter. There are two bands about 3/4 inch wide around the perimeter
: which are marked off in 1, 5, 10, 30 degree increments-- the outer
: one is for the MC and the inner one is for the Asc for my own
: latitude.
:
: As the single clock hand rotates, it points to the current MC and Asc,
: and this allows me to see in an instant (from about 10 feet) when the
: transiting MC or Asc are touching anything in my chart, or the day's
: chart.
:
: I took it along to an astrology meeting one night and left it whirring
: away at the front of the room near the speaker, then towards the end
: of the meeting one astrolger suddenly stood up and said "I see that
: the transitting Asc is conjunct my Mercury, so I have to go now" :-))
:
: This idea could be easily converted to a computer program.
: Of course a numeric display of the same information would be much
: easier to produce but there seems to be something special about
: analogue movement which helps us to anticipate when the transitting MC
: or Asc will be hitting a key point in a chart.
:
: Oh, the mechanical device has a maximum error of 1 degree each day
: because it doesn't use sidereal time, but that's easy enough to fix by
: moving it a whisker at the start of the day.
Thanks a lot, Ray. Really cool :)
Actually, I had meant to write "wrist watch" instead of "clock"
(in German, at least casually, they are both called "Uhr"; you
might remember the German couple in "Casablanca", where one of
them asked the other "what watch" it was (German: "Wieviel Uhr")).
But that error of mine, has lead to the following idea, which
might be intersting for people who maybe bought or are thinking
to buy a new PalmOS (or other) device:
HOW TO MAKE AN ASTROLOGICAL CLOCK OUT OF YOUR OLD PALMOS DEVICE
Have you bought a fancy new handheld recently ? Are you ready to
throw away you old Palm ? Wait a second, here is something useful
that you could do with it:
- Install Delphi (if you have not already done so)
- Put your handheld into the cradle and connect it to power
- Set preferences such that the handheld stays on if it is
in the cradle (start "Prefs", choose "General" and there
activate the checkbox "Stay on in Cradle")
- Start Delphi, open or create a chart, tap clock symbol to
show the clock and then set time and date for the clock
(tap "Clock" in the top-right corner for that)
- You're done. To recalculate the current chart, tap the
clock icon twice (like in the good old times when TVs
had no remote control; note that the chart will actually
only be recalculated every 10 minutes)
Here are some additional suggestions/opportunities:
- How about a different case around the PalmOS handheld ?
- If the Palm you use every day is to dear to use it only
as a clock, how about maybe buying a cheap old, used
PalmOS device ? (My personal favorite would be Palm's
m515, because of the crisp color 160x160 pixel screen)
- If you are a programmer, maybe you can write something
around Delphi that automatically recalculates the chart
every 10 minutes
CAUTION: If you need Delphi and want to upgrade to a newer
PalmOS device, make sure that Delphi runs on it first. (If
the new device has infrared beaming software, you might ask
at a shop to be allowed to beam it from your current device
onto the new one before you buy it).
END OF HOW TO MAKE ...
Here is my astrological interpretation of what has happened
here: I associate quintile and especially the biquintile
with "Murphy's Law", which is the errors that creep in into
everything we do, no matter how much we try to guard against
them. That's the things that go wrong in a presentation, but
always worked in preparation, etc. There were two posters
with the name "Murphy" involved in this thread.
Now, currently, there is a biquintile from Uranus to Saturn
and from Pluto to Saturn, and Uranus and Pluto are quintile
to each other. That is very similar to the "Yod" (which is
two quincunxes to one planet and a sextile between the other
two involved planets). The Yod is also called "The Finger of
God", so the current "Quintile Yod" has likely a somewhat
similar meaning.
Not astonishingly, the finger here points toward Saturn, who
was called Cronos in Greek mythology, a word with is at the
origin of "Cronometer", thus related to time and clocks.
Hence this is where this thread ended. Cool also, that using
Delphi as a clock, requires the use of one's own finger to
keep the clock going. ;)
This "Quintile Yod" is also quite interesting in relation to
the current US elections. Both candidates have, if I remember
correctly, their natal Saturn closely conjunct the current
position of Saturn. On election day, the biquintile of Uranus
to Saturn will be closer than the one of Pluto to Saturn,
which might imply an advantage for the Democrats (progress,
stem cell reasearch, etc.) relative to Republicans (fate,
protection from terrorism). On election day, Jupiter will
also be forming a close biquintile to Uranus, adding a second
"Quintile Yod" and a little later, I guess, Venus will join
in or take Jupiter's place.
So, Murphy's Law might apply: Everything that can go wrong,
might just go wrong, but I think maybe things will also loose
some of their exaggerated seriousness, will get relativated
a bit, fitting also with the progressed sun's entry into Pisces.
Thanks again Ray(s),
delphi29@excite.com
I hope, after several posts that were rather related to work,
it is allowed to write something more playful, more creative,
even at the risk of it appearing esoteric, excentric, etc.
again...
The main inspiration for this post has come maybe from the
following place, where Nick Anthony Fiorenza describes the
Kuiper belt object "2004 DW" that was discovered this year
in a very careful and precise way, relating it to the
objects that were near it in the sky at discovery. I found
the link while googling for "Juno"...
http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids.html
One thing catched my interest: Subra, the paw of the Lion
impressed into the desert sand, at the interface between
(sideral) Leo and Cancer, thus related to the themes of
archaic sign numbering, angles, the fifth element as an
escape from earth (center of the cross, passion of the
christ), etc. - brief to many themes that I touched this
year, including maybe most strongly my post about Hestia.
Mercury and Hobby
Mercury is excentric, it is almost never at the center,
almost never where the sun is. As a hobby, people usually
do something that is personal, often different from what
the majority does or thinks. Usually, that has no effect
back on the majority, the feedback comes from oneself or
from friends and family.
Sometimes, however, someone is lucky or fated to find a
gem outside the usual paths. How is he supposed to break
the news ? -- I:I :I:
alain@wei.chi
I forgot to mention another important numbering, namely
the one of the seasons:
Number : Element : Season
-----------------------------
1 : Fire : Spring
2 : Air : Summer
3 : Water : Autumn
4 : Earth : Winter
That is connected to another very basic (fundamental,
Pluto in Sagittarius) idea, namely to considering the
elements Air and Earth as "resting" and the elements
Fire and Water as "moving".
Thus you get the following circle for the elements and
the seasons:
-Air-
/ \
Fire Water
\ /
-Earth-
In winter, nature rests. In spring, plants start to grow,
things move and they move up. In summer, plants invest
energy into growing fruits, thus they do not grow up much.
In autumn, plants drop their leaves, things fall down.
(All such descriptions are, of course, idealizations, to
some degree; but are also tailored to reflect the typical
case, the main, essential property, they are plutonic).
Similarly, earth or its archetype, a tree, essentially
rests. A fire burns upwards. Air or its archetype, a cloud,
rest essentially. Water, at least its archetype, a river,
flows down.
Note that this view is different from Aristotle's, who
assigned elements and seasons differently, assigning,
for example, water to winter. This shows still today in
the watery nature of the winter signs, namely goat fish
(Capricorn), water bearer (Aquarius) and fish (Pisces).
My numbering is, however, compatible with at least one
of the commentaries of the I Ching, the Chinese Book of
Changes.
The hexagram K'un (:::) is winter and the mother, the
hexagram Ch'ien (III) is summer and the father.
Side remark: The 8 hexagrams of the I Ching represents
the above four elements, but unlike in Greek thought
(or at least in my modern interpretation of the cycle),
each element appears both in moving and resting form:
I:I fire, light-giving, 2nd daughter -- resting fire
::I thunder, inciting/movement, 1st son -- moving fire
III heaven, strong, father -- resting air
II: wind/wood, penetrating, 1st daughter -- moving air
:II lake/mist, joyful, 3rd daughter -- resting water
:I: water, dangerous, 2nd son -- moving water
I:: mountain, resting, 3rd son -- resting earth
::: earth, devoted/yielding, mother -- moving earth
But back to western astrology. Let me focus on autumn,
the season in which we are now. In the middle of it, is
Scorpio, the middle Water sign, symbolized by the middle
of the transition from ice to water to air (see previous
post). Or alternatively (see also repost "Archetypes for
the Elements and the Zodiac"), Scorpio is the river,
while Cancer is the source and Pisces the sea.
Scorpio has to break the ice, penetrate boundaries where
necessary to get the information needed for making the
best possible decision. The boundaries to be broken, are
both external ones, namely boundaries to other people and
boundaries in oneself. It is important in that process,
to remain caring, not to penetrate boundaries in onself
and in others unless necessary. The river, while it flows
down, merges with other rivers, which is another image for
what Scorpio does when he tries to force new connections.
Preparing what Scorpio will decide, is Libra, symbolized
by a cloud up in the air, balancing lightning (Fire, and
quickness) and rain (Water, continuity). Libra is looking
at the harvest that Virgo had brought in and sorted.
Libra takes an abstract overview of what is there, tries
to balace the provisions for the winter by trading what
can be spared with others. During that process, some of
the symmetries that Libra sees from above are interpreted
as deep insights. This is where Scorpio then heads and
tries to go to the bottom to see if what Libra advertised
is really there.
The role of Sagittarius, is mainly to relativate and to
console, trying to heal the wounds that Scorpio felt it
had to create in individuals in the interest of majority.
And there are some remaining sparks of fire that he can
use wisely (Sagittarius, the last fire sign, is a fire
that has burnt almost to the end, little wood and fire
are left, it has almost all gone up into the air, into
immortal, maybe philosophical insights into the world).
Sagittarius grows many ideas, but, unlike Leo, usually
does not pursue them himself, letting them fly as
arrows of opportunity, free for everybody to catch them
or to let them sink back into unconsciousness.
In the writings of Tsuang Tsu, maybe the most important
Taoist writer after Lao Tsu, there is a book called
"Autumn Floods" (Book 17). It starts with a river that
arrives at the sea near the end of autum and is amazed
at the size of the sea and exclaims that he had always
thought that he was big, but that now he had found out
what is really big. The sea then goes on to relativate
that view, to explain that it is based on a limited,
restricted view of the world. That is, Scorpio gets
confronted with Pisces (or also by Sagittarius, the
two signs with Jupiter as their traditional ruler).
As another image, the spider thinks that it is at the
center of the world, because it sees only its own web.
The world wide web, in contrast, is quite sagittarian,
because it has not clear center.
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
John Roth wrote:
: [...] The Declaration did not establish independence
: in the minds of the members of the Congress, and the
: contemporanious letters of those members show that
: they regarded July 2nd as the correct date.
Taking the time that Pete suggested, this puts the moon
closely conjunct the USA's Pluto. Actually, besides the
moon's placement (and houses, of course), there is not
much difference between these two charts. The spot of
the Aquarian moon in Sibley's chart is occupied by
Quaoar, which was discovered as part of a project that
was started roughly around 9/11.
The first exachange of posts that I had with you was on
10 October 2002, in the thread in which Alois Treindl had
reported the discovery of Quaoar. You noted how Pluto had
gotten its name, namely by "an (I think) British schoolgirl
who related her choice (Pluto) to the fact that the planet
was very far from the sun, and quite dark".
Our encounters since then have always been connected to
Pluto, and I always had the feeling that they were related
to deeper insights that were in some way not ready to come
to light at that moment. Yesterday, Osama Bin Laden in his
video address, addressed the reaction of the president on
9/11, where he read a story to children in a school, after
he had already heard of the first attack. In my feeling,
that story is quite deeply related to the USA.
The story is very short and simple:
http://www.ledgeofliberty.com/2004/07/the_pet_goat_pa.html
Summary: Girl gets goat. Goat eats stuff. Girl's dad gets
mad, wants to take away goat from girl. Girl takes care
that goat does no longer eat stuff that he should not.
Thief wants to steal car of family. Goat attacks thief,
hits him with his horns. Dad is happy and tells girl that
goat can now eat everything he wants. Girl and goat are
happy, thief is unhappy.
In light of your link between a young girl (who is also
clearly linked to the young water sign, Cancer, the moon
phase after new moon) and Pluto, "Girl with goat" could
be interpreted as the USA's Pluto in Capricorn, or it
could be linked to the Pluto-Saturn opposition of the
time, but I would rather interpret "Dad" as Saturn for
immediate purposes, because then the story quite clearly
tells what the USA should do, in reaction to the attacks
of "the family" (USA) by a "thief" (Bin Laden) of a
neptunian nature (wants to steal a car), namely to use
their Pluto in Capricorn and attack the terrorists. In
the story, the thief was leaning over the car, when the
goat got him in the ass, so, at least the immediate
attack had apparently to be rather indirect.
Is the moon of the USA conjunct its Pluto ? I don't know.
Feels to me more like that is rather a current appearance.
But, as I said, I remain curious.
Bin Laden's speach was very subtle and tricky. Don't let
that guy fool you.
Here is an attempt to compare how precisely the position
of Saturn in either chart for the USA fits with where
Mercury and Ascendent were at the time of the first hit
of the World Trade Center on 9/11. It felt natural to
use Saturn and AC for a purpose of timing.
USA1: 1776-07-04 17:10 LMT Philadelphia
USA2: 1776-07-02 12:04 LMT Philadelphia
Saturn USA1: 14* 48' 20" Libra
Saturn USA2: 14* 44' 35" Libra
Time of first impact:
08:46:26 NY (12:46:26 UTC)
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_WTC/WTC_LDEO_KIM.pdf
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian/WTC/Seismic/WTC_LDEO_KIM.htm
Place of first impact (Ground Zero):
Latitude: N 40* 42.61734' = 40.710289
Longitude: W 74* 00.78024' = 74.013004
http://www.geosnapper.com/view.php?coll_id=65&wyp_id=633&thumb=&track=1
Positions of Mercury and AC around time of first impact:
)o+ 9/11 08:46:25: 14* 17' 18.0120"
)o+ 9/11 08:46:26: 14* 17' 18.0631"
)o+ 9/11 08:46:27: 14* 17' 18.1141"
AC 9/11 08:46:25: 14* 25' 32.6817"
AC 9/11 08:46:26: 14* 25' 44.5794"
AC 9/11 08:46:27: 14* 25' 56.4766"
Saturn stationed 16 June at 14* 31' 43"; it never
reached the positions of 9/11's AC or )o+ in 1776.
Earlier in the same Saturn cycle, Saturn was exactly
once at the positions of 9/11's AC and )o+; both dates
are in October 1775:
)o+ 1775-10-25 01:17:39 UTC =: USA-ME911
AC 1775-10-26 05:40:42 UTC =: USA-AC911
Here are some planetary positions for these dates:
USA-ME911 USA-AC911
-------------------------------------------
Sun 01 Sco 28'13" 02 Sco 39'08"
Moon 07 Sco 58'49" 23 Sco 35'47"
Venus 00 Sco 44'47"r 00 Sco 01'42"r
Mars 09 Sag 24'30" 10 Sag 16'32"
Mercury 24 Sco 33'11" 25 Sco 55'09"
Jupiter 21 Gem 19'48"r 21 Gem 16'10"r
Saturn 14 Lib 17'18" 14 Lib 25'45"
Uranus 05 Gem 56'34"r 05 Gem 54'14"r
Neptune 23 Vir 51'17" 23 Vir 53'28"
Pluto 24 Cap 18'24" 24 Cap 19'02"
Chiron 13 Ari 22'19"r 13 Ari 19'12"r
Lilith 21 Leo 18'15" 21 Leo 26'07"
True Node 22 Leo 10'20" 21 Leo 55'50"
Quaoar 22 Aqu 51'52"r 22 Aqu 51'32"r
2004 DW ? ?
Sedna 14 Pis 48'38"r 14 Pis 48'24"r
Varuna 14 Vir 32'12" 14 Vir 33'30"
Ceres 19 Sag 51'04" 20 Sag 16'08"
Pallas 20 Sag 13'56" 20 Sag 38'34"
Juno 07 Lib 24'49" 07 Lib 50'32"
Vesta 28 Cap 55'44" 29 Cap 18'29"
For Philadelphia:
AC 28 Gem 54'17" 23 Leo 47'19"
MC 05 Pis 41'06" 16 Tau 53'16"
Pars Fort. 22 Gem 23'41" 02 Leo 50'40"
Both charts are certainly very american. I prefer the
USA-AC911 one, because of what I said in the first
paragraph of this post and because it has the nodes
and the Lilith-Quaoar opposition at the ascendent.
(Although the USA-AC911 chart depends much more on
the exact moment when the first WTC tower was hit,
see AC positions for a second earlier/later above).
The combination of Leo AC and northern node, reminds
very much of Spain, which has the same configuration and
was hit by the same kind of terrorism as the USA. See
"Anima Mundi" by Charles Harvey, compiled by Liz Greene
sometime after his death, likely also when Saturn and
Pluto were in opposition in 2001 and 2002:
http://www.cpalondon.com/press/press3/anima.html
"Anima Mundi: The Astrology of the Individual and the
Collective", Charles Harvey, CPA Press Vol. 19.
Since all reasonable birth charts for the USA have Neptune
in Virgo, it may, of course, be impossible to analyze when
the country was really born. It may be wiser to use maybe
several different charts, or maybe not. Anyway, the 9/11
attacks with their use of airplanes and the fact that the
exact time of impact comes from equipment for detecting
earthquakes, link this post here strongly to Neptune...
Larry Swain wrote:
: With all the quintiles in effect right now and their aspecting one of
: my own natal 5th harmonic patterns (Jupiter quintile Sun and Chiron
: and on their midpoint), I've been meditating upon and contemplating
: the affects of quintiles and deciles. Dunno why I haven't seen it
: before but it strikes me that "intuition" should be a keyword for the
: 5th harmonic.
:
: According to the dictionary intuition is: 1) The act or faculty of
: knowing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition. 2)
: A capacity for guessing accurately; sharp insight. From the Latin
: *intueri*: *in-* (on or toward) + *tueri* (to look or watch).
:
: The inference is that one places one's self or one's awareness *into*
: that which is the focus of one's attention as if one were the
: thing/person/process itself, but it's used colloquially (that is, more
: loosely or generally, definition 2) to be any kind of instant "feel"
: for how something (or someone) operates or is unfolding in it's (or
: their) process.
:
: Isn't that the very same thing that underlies and/or creates "talent"
: or a "knack" for something? The immediate cognition that is often
: described as 'genius' or the precursor of creativity seems descriptive
: of the 5th harmonic (quintiles), and the second definition of guessing
: accurately -- having a 'feel' for something or a 'knack' -- seems
: descriptive of the 10th harmonic (deciles).
:
: Any opinions?
I think intuition is a very good single description for
Quintiles. Direct associations with the number five are
Leo, 5th house, and Mercury.
A central theme in Leo is the formation and transformation
of the self. Liz Greene sees that theme in Heracles and his
12 labours. In the first labour, he beats the Nemean Lion
and then wears its pelt. He defeats the animal inside and
incorporates it into his self. With each new task, he learns
more and is then able to solve more difficult tasks.
The labour that is maybe most clearly related to Quintiles
is, of course, the 5th. In it, Heracles has the task to
clean out the stables of Augias within a single day. For
that purpose he uses the knowledge the previous four or,
in other words, of the four elements Fire, Air, Water and
Earth. First he has the idea what to do (that is Fire),
then he opens the gates at both sides of the stable, with
the help of two other guys (that is Air), next he diverts
two rivers and melts them into a single one (Water) and
directs that river through the gates of the stable, so
that the cow dung (Earth) is washed out.
That is very close to what Pete mentioned in his initial
reply, namely "the process of deliberately arranging,
organising, and building; creating a sort of purposeful
order out of elements that would not, by themselves, come
together naturally".
The association of Quintiles with Mercury gives a further
indication into that direction, namely with Virgo, the
female sign ruled by Mercury, a sign who does analyze and
sort reality into something different.
Of course, too much intuition, or incorporating unhealthy
influences can also be harmful. Take "Stockholm Syndrome",
where hostages of terrorists identified so much with them
that they started to identify with their causes. If I am
not mistaken, Sweden (capital Stockholm) is Leo. That is
also where I see the danger of Osama Bin Laden's tape that
aired yesterday. He has become so much part of western
culture, that one could be tempted to consider him a
frienly, helpful guy.
In sharp contrast to the two presidential candidates, he
did not tell people what would be best to do, he did not
polarize, but simply told the american people that the
future was in their hands, something many US citizens
would certainly like to hear from their leaders. This
way, he could get a little bit of their hearts, even if
only unconsciously. Very dangerous guy, indeed.
Keera Ann Fox wrote:
: Christine <a.huyg@planet.nl> wrote:
:
: > Re: not being a native English speaker; would this account for the web page
: > for asteroids you mentioned in another thread being in a language I couldn't
: > understand ( One of the Scandinavian countries?)? It sounds like a site a
: > simpleton like myself needs :-)
The site is Estonian. The link apparently comes in english now:
http://www.horozcope.com/asteroids/
(Note that I am not related to the site).
> If you're referring to Paul Schlytter's page, Christine, it's Swedish.
> Paul is a huge skeptic to astrology (I know him over at That Other
> Group) but a dedicated amateur astronomer and interested in accurate
> calculations. His English is very good, in case you want to e-mail him.
> He may have pages in English at his website; I haven't looked.
I once stumbled across some of his posts at alt.astrology, when
searching for something (don't remember what) at google groups.
delphi29@excite.com
John Roth wrote:
: I think there's a missing piece. It's rather easy to get the text
: of the Declaration and read it. It's not that easy to get the text
: of the Lee-Adams resolution (especially if you don't know what
: it is!)
:
: The ***entire*** text is:
:
: [Quote]
: These United Colonies are, and of right ought to be,
: free and independent States.
: [end Quote]
:
: This is what was voted on July 2nd. It says "are". It
: doesn't say "should be." It doesn't say "we're going
: to do it as soon as we can set the date." It doesn't
: say "we're going to do it as soon as we agree on the
: text of the press release. It says "are."
:
: I find it very obvious and unequivocal what was being
: voted. So did the delegates.
Approaching the matter by the facts, is certainly
a viable approach. In that sense:
Do you have any information about the time ?
Which times / time frames can be excluded ?
Based on what (circumstantial) evidence ?
What about the time that Pete indicated ?
I have read on the web that the vote on the Lee-Adams
resolutions was "almost unanimously (12 yeas)".
12 out of 13, right ?
How many yeas for the declaration of independence ?
unanimous ?
Thanks for any info about these questions.
Larry Swain wrote:
: Alain, I can't help thinking that perhaps you have an agenda here that
: isn't entirely about the 5th harmonic. You start with quintiles but
: take some rather large leaps and end up with Osama bin Laden?
:
: I'm glad you agree that 'intuition' is a good keyword for quintiles,
: but I cannot agree that Leo -- or *any* sign -- has any symbolic
: correlation with their nature. Nor do I think it's wise to try and
: enforce numerological reasoning upon sign order or we'd have to equate
: Gemini to trines (3rd sign), Virgo to sextiles (6th sign), and Taurus
: to oppositions (2nd sign)!
:
: While I'm convinced that there are some correlations between astrology
: and numerology I'm not sure what they are and I think we risk getting
: completely off track when we try to justify astrological assumptions
: by numerological rationale. I believe we have to make astrological
: correlations using astrological rationale and *then* notice any
: correlations that might exist with numerology. Otherwise, we can
: notice correspondences but we don't really know how it all fits
: together, such as noticing that I have more 5th harmonic aspects and
: aspect patterns in my chart than any other harmonic and also that I
: was born on 5-5-50 on the 5th day of the week, the 5th member of my
: birth family, my own first family consisted of 5 and my second of 10,
: my numerological birth number is 25 (5x5), and the Grand Quintile hit
: the 4 points of one of my own quintile patterns in the 55th year of my
: life. I don't know what that means and certainly can't fathom the
: mechanism(s) involved or even prove that there *are* any, I simply
: notice it and marvel at and wonder about it.
I cannot prove, what I wrote in my post.
Also, I am certainly not saying that quintiles, Leo and Mercury
are the same.
But I do feel that my way of exploring the symolism of quintiles
(say) can be an important tool for enriching the usual paths to
learn something about quintiles, which are essentially to look
at many charts with quintiles or read books written by peole who
have looked at many charts with quintiles (and, of course, tried
to find some correlations between the charts and the people or
events they were for).
I have a habit of only writing down half of what is in my mind.
And, probably, I am not able to fill all of the gaps, at least
not immediately at the time of writing.
All I can do, is try to evolve things with time and then maybe,
with the years, to present "carpets of association" with only few
gaps, that reproduce quite well what other astrologers have written.
Possibly, my method only works ("by chance") for certain symbols,
but not for others. Maybe the method is biased. That is not how
it feels to me, though, but as long as I am not able to show things
really convincingly, there is little point to argue about that.
Anyway, at least for the quintile, I think the link to Mercury
and Leo, works well, and even leads to Islam and thus also to
Osama Bin Laden. Let me try to expose a "carpet of associations"
in maybe a bit more detail than ususal:
5 - Fingers - Hand:
The hand is one of the big differences between animals and
human beings. As far as I remember, even Chimpanses have hands
that are less well suited to grab and manipulate things. Most
animals don't have a thumb that can move opposite the other
fingers, so that the can hardly hold anything.
This relates the hand symbolically to free will. More precisely,
the hand is the main instrument by which people express their
will. Hands are the, at least indirect, tool with which all the
things in culture have been created.
Hand - Gemini - Mercury (or directly 5 - Mercury):
In astrology, the hand is associated with Gemini, which leads
to Mercury (by sign rulership). The element Mercury was very
important to alchemists. To my best knowledge, alchemists
believed that it was what could transform different materials
chemically into each other (the "quintessence"). Again, a very
similar concept of transformation of the world.
Alchemy/Magic:
The step from alchemy to magic is not far; as far as I know,
magic is something that is commonly associated with quintiles.
A magician has to be very skilled, especially with his hands.
He has to be able to manipulate, control, many things. In my
view, he has to manipulate Fire (has to be selective what is in
the spotlight, and what in the dark), Air (has to be quick, like
Gemini/Mercury), Water (has to play with the emotions of the
audience, must be able to divert their attention away from where
he does the trick), Earth (has to create the setup and operate
the setup for the trick).
Magic - Sceptisim:
James Randi, maybe the best known sceptic, used to be a magician.
Without going deep here, one can relate that to the experience
of a magician how much apparent magic can be created by a skilled
person with very simple means. It can lead to the illusion that
there is no magic in this world at all, that all is just tricks.
Talent:
Talent is something that is associated with quintiles. Besides
the current meaning, Talent was also an old money unit (or an old
name for money). That relates talent to Mercury.
5 Pillars of Islam - Osama Bin Laden:
Besides the Koran, Islam is built on its "5 Pillars"
1) no god besides Allah, Mohammed is his (last) prophet
2) pray 5 times per day
3) give to the poor
4) fasting
5) hajj (travel to Mecca once per life, if affordable)
The Greek word "Hermes" (=Mercury) means "Pillar". This links the
5 Pillars of Islam, in my opinion, quite strongly to quintiles.
And the fact that the Bin Laden video appeared close to the
second Grand Quintile adds quite a bit to that suspicion.
You can also make the link Mercury-Merchant-Trade-WTC Attacks.
(John Roth remarked in a recent post that he found it "incredibly
symbolic" that the hit was against the WTC. Of course, Mercury
was at the AC then, and in Libra, a sign which I associate quite
strongly with trade, besides Gemini.)
I am running out of space. Let me just say that I think that Leo
does fit in into this "carpet" quite well, but that for the other
aspects that you mentioned (and also Aries-Conjunction or
Libra-Septile), I am not able to see such a clear connection. It
might thus be that the association "aspect - sign with same
number" does not work, in general.
[requoting from above]
: life. I don't know what that means and certainly can't fathom the
: mechanism(s) involved or even prove that there *are* any, I simply
: notice it and marvel at and wonder about it.
Yes, analysis can destroy illusions, and that is often not desired.
On the other hand, astrology is very analytical too and serves often
the purpose to heal people. I think that is another aspect of the
quintile or the number 5 or of a hand: It is a powerful tool that
can destroy or create, hurt or heal, can be gentle or rough, etc.
In that sense, I hope that my general method will some day be used
to help people and rather used for good than for bad, whatever the
exact definition of "good" or "bad" may be.
Thanks a lot for the reply! (To my best knowledge that was the
first reply by you to any of my usenet posts).
alain
empty
Mostly Harmless
The music is between the nodes...
I never met a person in life who had the same freedom as I do,
who was able to see things without fear, who was not so much
traumatized as most people by birth, family and the rest.
The world does not evolve linearly, logically. The insights
of Libra, are often not opportune; although they represent
opportunities, it is often too early for most people to
seize them. Some will have a chance to do so at later times,
most will have to make them part of their unconscious, so
that they will in some form flow into the fates of their
children, or maybe into their art.
However, if you want to take a deeper look regarding the
number 5 and quintiles, read Douglas Adams' 5th book of
the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy, "Mostly Harmless".
There seems also to be a strongly Aquarian trait in the
number five, a relation to the (American or not) "New
World Order" that is already proclaimed on the back of
the Great Seal of the USA.
: In life, because one often would have the option
: to say or do more than one finally does and can
: do, the things that one does not say or not do,
: are more important than the ones that are done.
Besides, what I said in my "wei-chi" post, still holds
for me, even though the path will likely not be perfectly
linear for me, either... Nobody's perfect ;)
:) (^_^)
I:I :I:
H:
: We got pummeled last night with outrageous new Bush-bashing TV commercials.
: One of the TV commercials had a guy with his arm amputated and he took off a
: covering on his arm to show the stump. The camera zoomed in on the stump of
: his arm. He blamed Bush. It was so sickening, I couldn't believe my eyes
: that this was politics. I decided to vote Bush right after I saw that
: commercial because I was outraged at how low someone would go to air a
: gut-wrenching commercial like that. (I was actually planning on not voting
: because I'm not thrilled with either guy) I've been getting phone calls all
: morning from people who asked if I saw that commercial and they're pissed
: off too, and are now voting for Bush. I hope the Dems are happy that they
: turned undecided voters to Bush because they grossed them out with a TV
: commercial. The irony is quite amusing.
In german, there is an expression "zuueckkrebsen", literally
translated "to crab back". That was what happened, no matter
what external things might have ignited what was already in
many Americans. "Better the devil you know". Good old sun
sign astrology :) maybe not the worst choice for predicting
the outcome of an election...
Liz Greene associates Cancer with the scarab and the dung
ball that it rolls (symbolizing the solar disk) and the new
life that emerges from its eggs that were laid into it.
Considering the wide range of very strange things (to say
the least) that exist in the USA, it is always amazing to
compare it with all the good stuff that emerges, if you
only look at the general outcome, across several years,
and not at how it was made in detail :)
Whatever.
)o+
decision
- es hat viele sehr gute und auch zugaengliche dinge auf xphi.net
- posts 23.12./10.5./5.10., ab fruehling
- als hermes
- nur "A few new discoveries..."
- verweisen auf etwas aktuelles
- am Ende korrigieren 2x=>3x
- professionell antworten, moeglichst nur im selben thread
- forschung: nichts kulturelles (höchstens als inspiration),
nur natuerliches, einfaches, exaktes, naturwissenschaftl.
wei-chi
Larry Swain wrote:
: "alain" <alain@wei.chi> wrote in message
[...]
: > But I do feel that my way of exploring the symolism of quintiles
: > (say) can be an important tool for enriching the usual paths to
: > learn something about quintiles, which are essentially to look
: > at many charts with quintiles or read books written by peole who
: > have looked at many charts with quintiles (and, of course, tried
: > to find some correlations between the charts and the people or
: > events they were for).
:
: As long as we're looking at it as possibilities, as exploration
: without firm conclusion, I agree that examining correspondences
: between numerology and astrology can be interesting. But IMO we have
: to leave it as loose speculation or we risk polluting astrological
: symbolism with a different symbolic system that isn't and never will
: be a perfect 'fit'.
I see what you mean. Yes, I see it essentially as inspiration,
as a way to explore possible meanings of concepts in astrology
(and elsewhere). It is merely an opportunity: The choice whether
to use free association to explore possible meanings of concepts
in astrology and then especially the judgement what of what has
been found to incorporate to what degree into astrology, remains
with the experts, the astrologers, who have direct experience of
what the different concepts in astrology amount to in reality.
: > I have a habit of only writing down half of what is in my mind.
: > And, probably, I am not able to fill all of the gaps, at least
: > not immediately at the time of writing.
:
: Am I ever familiar with THAT one! It's a big problem for me, too,
: Alain.
:
[some associations 5-Mercury]
:
: > [requoting from above]
: > : life. I don't know what that means and certainly can't fathom the
: > : mechanism(s) involved or even prove that there *are* any, I simply
: > : notice it and marvel at and wonder about it.
: >
: > Yes, analysis can destroy illusions, and that is often not desired.
: > On the other hand, astrology is very analytical too and serves often
: > the purpose to heal people. I think that is another aspect of the
: > quintile or the number 5 or of a hand: It is a powerful tool that
: > can destroy or create, hurt or heal, can be gentle or rough, etc.
:
: I can see more clearly now how you're relating quintiles with Mercury
: since you've gone into it a bit more, and I myself have seen Mercury
: to be part of the "flavor" of quintiles -- to me it's Mercury and
: Mars. But I just can't see or feel a Leo connection. Perhaps it's a
: prejudice against relating aspects to signs, generally, but that's the
: way I see it.
Maybe it is less a Leo connection than a sun connection. I agree
that there is likely, in general, no strong direct connection
between aspects and signs, if any at all.
About Mars: In my preferred numbering of planets, Mars is 4, Sun
is 1 and Mercury is 5. These numbers are related by addition
5 = 4 + 1, which could be tentatively interpreted as Mars and Sun
"creating" quintiles. Consequently, in this way of reasoning, also
Moon (2) and Venus (3) would be related to quintiles (5 = 3 + 2).
In my favorite numbering of elements (1-Fire, 2-Air, 3-Water, and
4-Earth, 5-Ether), the 5th element is the sum of the dry elements
(1+4) and the wet ones (2+3). See also the connections between 5
and free will that I made mainly in my posts of last summer.
But, of course, in the end, what matters regarding quintiles in
astrology is if (or to what degree or with which qualifications)
these associations fit with the effects that quintiles have.
: > In that sense, I hope that my general method will some day be used
: > to help people and rather used for good than for bad, whatever the
: > exact definition of "good" or "bad" may be.
:
: A worthwhile desire, but don't bet the farm on it. In my experience
: astrologers are such a cussedly independent lot that nothing is
: accepted in it's entirety by any of us!
:
: > Thanks a lot for the reply! (To my best knowledge that was the
: > first reply by you to any of my usenet posts).
: >
: > alain
:
: That wasn't because of anything personal, and certainly not because I
: think you lack intelligence, Alain! It's because most of the time I
: find your approach to things to be so completely different from my own
: that it's hard for me to follow you in the way you make connections.
:
: I do read your posts with interest, though, so please don't take it
: personally if I don't respond a lot.
Thanks a lot again.
alain
My original approach
* me, see: space, in/out
* pictures change: time, rest/move
* fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
* want, pictures change differently: 5th element
and then maybe expanded by
* active/passive
inside effort (activity) is required to keep things at rest
outside things come macroscopically to rest in a closed system
and then synthesizing other concepts from opposites,
seems to be the best approach to reach something that
would deserve the name "exactphilosophy".
Why cut Eastern-style input ?
Reason 1: Science is Western. So, in order to build
a scientific, exact form of philosophy, a Western
approach, is, at least intially, the path to go.
Reason 2: I consider the Greek, Libra-style, approach
to nature, which does bring things alternatively out
of and into balance, better able to describe the other
(Eastern) approaches than the other way round. Maybe
that assumption will turn out to be false in the more
remote future, but, for now, this is my decision.
Reason 3: I prefer my approach. It feels simply like
the way to go for me at this time.
Reason 4: My approach is better at home at home than
to emerge in a public place. Although aat is a special
place, it is still a part of usenet and its fate, as
well as of its parent groups, and of Orwell's "Oceania".
I want to grow exactphilosophy in Switzerland, out of
my own background. (Kant, Freud, Einstein, Taoism, etc.
My father's ETH diploma thesis was titled "Raum, Zeit
und Architektur", i.e. "Space, Time and Architecture")
Reason 5: Taoism, unlike the I Ching, seems a lot more
universal and general, and thus not in the way of what
I want to do.
I:I :I:
Reason 6: A hobby should not consume all of my life
energy (like the eagle that eats Prometheus' liver).
Therefore, some separation from the world (especially
from insatiable usenet) and some form of limitation
is necessary.
Reason 7: Should something relevant for the public emerge
from my hobby (which is not certain at all), it would be
ideal if the findings had their main inspiration from and
their main application in the Western zodiac and would be
generally rooted in Western philosophy and culture.
I could then probably quite quickly and easily write down
my findings, while citing renowned astrologers richly and
analyzing their views in terms of my simpler model. Add a
few color figures, take care not to make any mental jumps,
but to explain everything (maybe in footnotes), and finally
print the whole document out in many copies and send them
to anybody who would likely be interested in it.
That should do the trick to generate public interest.
I wrote:
: I could then probably quite quickly and easily write down
: my findings, while citing renowned astrologers richly and
: analyzing their views in terms of my simpler model. Add a
: few color figures, take care not to make any mental jumps,
: but to explain everything (maybe in footnotes), and finally
: print the whole document out in many copies and send them
: to anybody who would likely be interested in it.
:
: That should do the trick to generate public interest.
Why not do that alreay today, with what I already found
out so far ?
For all that I can see, other people are not at able at
the moment to "feel" or "see" that my approach is useful,
that it is more than just selective perception, the
writings of a "mostly harmless", intelligent, but rather
eccentric person.
What I found out, is too different from how people think
today, especially "experts", it is too much of a "paradigm
shift" to be recognizable (or "not ignorable") without a
clear, precise step-by-step exposition. Only then will it
become a subject worth/necessary to consider.
That's the natural fate of really new things: Ignored
(simply not realized to be interesting and partially
also unconsciously rejected from fear), then attacked
(simple misunderstandings and partially also the
result of unconscious fears of too much change, on a
collective as well as on a personal level, including
threats to one's professional career), and finally,
when accepted, not attributed much importance.
I am exaggerating a bit, of course. Still, Einstein did
not get a Nobel Prize for the Theory of Relativity.
Quantum Mechanics, which is a lot less tangible in real
life than, say, the "Twin Paradox", had no such trouble
to yield Nobel Prizes. When I was in Swiss Military and
told others that I was a physicist, they always asked
me about Einstein and the puzzles with time and space
not always being the same, but never about QM.
So, in that sense, I could also consider myself happy
to have found out something that does interest people,
not only some specialists, but everybody.
Here is Venus' third task to Psyche, in Adlington's translation
(see also quick summary immediately below):
* Then Venus spake unto Psyches againe saying: Seest thou the toppe of yonder great
* Hill, from whence there runneth downe waters of blacke and deadly colour, which
* nourisheth the floods of Stix, Cocytus? I charge thee to goe thither, and bring me
* a vessell of that water: wherewithall she gave her a bottle of Christall, menacing
* and threatening her rigorously. Then poor Psyches went in all haste to the top of
* the mountaine, rather to end her life, then [sic] to fetch any water, and when she
* was come up to the ridge of the hill, she perceived that it was impossible to bring
* it to passe: for she saw a great rocke gushing out most horrible fountaines of
* waters, which ran downe and fell by many stops and passages into the valley beneath:
* on each side shee did see great Dragons, which were stretching out their long and
* bloody Neckes, that did never sleepe, but appointed to keepe the river there: the
* waters seemed to themselves likewise saying, Away, away, what wilt thou doe? flie,
* flie, or else thou wilt be slaine. Then Psyches (seeing the impossibility of this
* affaire) stood still as though she were transformed into a stone, and although she
* was present in body, yet was she absent in spirit and sense, by reason of the great
* perill which she saw, insomuch that she could not comfort her self with weeping,
* such was the present danger that she was in. But the royall bird of great Jupiter,
* the Eagle remembring his old service which he had done, when as by the pricke of
* Cupid he brought up the boy Ganimedes, to the heavens, to be made butler of Jupiter,
* and minding to shew the like service in the person of the wife of Cupid, came from
* the high-house of the Skies, and said unto Psyches, O simple woman without all
* experience, doest thou thinke to get or dip up any drop of this dreadfull water?
* No, no, assure thy selfe thou art never able to come nigh it, for the Gods
* themselves do greatly feare at the sight thereof. What, have you not heard, that it
* is a custome among men to sweare by the puissance of the Gods, and the Gods do
* sweare by the majesty of the river Stix? But give me thy bottle, and sodainly he
* tooke it, and filled it with the water of the river, and taking his flight through
* those cruell and horrible dragons, brought it unto Psyches: who being very joyfull
* thereof, presented it to Venus, who would not yet be appeased, but menacing more
* and more said, What, thou seemest unto me a very witch and enchauntresse, that
* bringest these things to passe, howbeit thou shalt do nothing more.
Venus tells Psyche to get some water from the river Styx (the circular
river, symbol of eternity and fate, by which all of the gods swear). She
climbs up to a mountain, rather to kill herself and sees that the water
of the river flows quickly, is guarded by steep, sharp rocks and dragons
that nevers sleep. Zeus/Jupiter's eagle comes to her help, takes the
crystal bottle from her and fills it with water from the Styx.
The third task is about overview. Without the overview that she has
gained on top of the mountain, Psyche would not have been able to
solve the problem. The capacity to imagine the world in the head, is
a property that especially human beings have. It allows to solve
problems in the mind first, to try some solutions without "sweat",
and to choose the best one.
In my model, the three Fire signs are different stages in a transition
from Earth via Fire to Air: An actual fire transforms wood (Earth) to
smoke (air) (and a some ash). The first Fire sign, Aries, has a tendency
to try to solve problems from the bottom up, by attacking immediately
and directly what he thinks is not ok. Sagittarius, in turn, consists
mainly of air, is high up, has the experience of many failed and also
of successful attempts. That experience and overview, allows him to
solve a problem like the one with getting water from the Styx with a
lot less effort than it would be for Aries, who would have to fight
the dragons one by one and climb under great danger down to the river.
Not astonishingly, then, the eagle that provides the solution, is sent
by Zeus (who is, as Jupiter, the ruler or Sagittarius (and Pisces)).
And, of course, Leo, the middle Fire sign, has again a dilemma: Which
problem should be tackled directly by immediately doing something about
it, and which ones should be considered in the mind first ?
Here is Venus' first task to Psyche, in Adlington's translation
(see also quick summary immediately below):
* Then she tooke a great quantity of wheat, of barly, poppy seede, peason, lintles,
* and beanes, and mingled them altogether on a heape saying: Thou evil favoured
* girle, thou seemest unable to get the grace of thy lover, by no other meanes, but
* only by diligent and painefull service, wherefore I will prove what thou canst doe:
* see that thou separate all these graines one from another disposing them orderly
* in their quantity, and let it be done before night. When she had appointed this
* taske unto Psyches, she departed to a great banket that was prepared that day. But
* Psyches went not about to dissever the graine, (as being a thing impossible to be
* brought to passe by reason it lay so confusedly scattered) but being astonyed at
* the cruell commandement of Venus, sate still and said nothing. Then the little
* pismire [*] the emote, taking pitty of her great difficulty and labour, cursing the
* cruellnesse of the daughter of Jupiter, and of so evill a mother, ran about, hither
* and thither, and called to all her friends, Yee quick sons of the ground, the mother
* of all things, take mercy on this poore maid, espouse to Cupid, who is in great
* danger of her person, I pray you helpe her with all diligence. Incontinently one
* came after another, dissevering and dividing the graine, and after that they had put
* each kinde of corne in order, they ranne away againe in all haste. When night came,
* Venus returned home from the banket wel tippled with wine, smelling of balme, and
* crowned with garlands of roses, who when shee had espied what Psyches had done, gan
* say, This is not the labour of thy hands, but rather of his that is amorous of thee:
* then shee gave her a morsel of brown bread, and went to sleep. In the mean season,
* Cupid was closed fast in the surest chamber of the house, partly because he should
* not hurt himself with wanton dalliance, and partly because he should not speake
* with his love: so these two lovers were divided one from another.
Venus throws different seeds onto a heap and mixes well. Psyche is
then ordered to sort out the seeds before nightfall. Psyche says and
does nothing at first. Then little animals, likely ants, come to her
help and sort out the heap of seeds for her. Venus returns, gets
angry, and gives her a morsel of brown bread.
In my model of the zodiac, the three Earth signs are different
stages in the transformation from Fire via Earth to Water. The
archetypal image is a tree:
Taurus: Leaves and flowers, the beautiful, but also short-lived,
parts of the tree that are exposed to the light of the sun (Fire)
and do the photosynthesis (leaves).
Capricorn: Roots, the part of the tree that feed the tree with
water and diluted substances, and keep the tree from falling
down, during all of its life.
Virgo is in between.
So, Taurus is about beauty and love, is a young Earth sign, while,
when growing up into Virgo, structure and stability, become more
important. While Taurus usually prefers beauty to order, Capricorn
usually does often the opposite. Virgo, in between, is often not
sure which path to go, although for everybody born in Earth signs,
since nobody gets younger, there is a certain tendency on rather
going towards more structure with age.
Psyche's Tasks can, quite generally, be interpreted as tasks for
the psyche, as tasks that everybody has to learn in life and the
tasks also provide tips for how to proceed.
Earth is the lowest element (Water is always above some ground,
Fire always burns on the ground or on Water (say burning oil on
water), and Air is above them all), hence the first task to the
human psyche is earthy.
What do you do, if you are young and have hardly ever sorted
anything out by yourself ? Well, in that case, the best approach
is simply to start sorting things out one after the other. Often
the time required to do so, will be astonishingly shorter than
expected. In the task that is symbolized by the ants that carry
the seeds to different heaps. It is a very low-intelligence part
of the Psyche that does this task. Sorting seeds is easy.
With more experience and age, of course, it becomes much easier
to predict which tasks will take how long, it planning becomes
possible, an attribute that is often attached to Capricorn.
There is certainly more that could be said here, but let me leave
it at that; after all I would prefer people to eventually read all
five posts in this thread...
Here is Venus' second task to Psyche, in Adlington's translation
(see also quick summary immediately below):
* When night was passed Venus called Psyches, and said, Seest thou yonder Forest
* that extendeth out in length with the river? there be great sheepe shining like
* gold, and kept by no manner of person. I command thee that thou go thither and
* bring me home some of the wooll of their fleeces. Psyches arose willingly not to
* do her commandement, but to throw her selfe headlong into the water to end her
* sorrows. Then a green reed inspired by divine inspiration, with a gratious tune
* and melody gan say, O Psyches I pray thee not to trouble or pollute my water by
* the death of thee, and yet beware that thou goe not towards the terrible sheepe
* of this coast, untill such time as the heat of the sunne be past, for when the
* sunne is in his force, then seeme they most dreadfull and furious, with their
* sharpe hornes, their stony foreheads and their gaping throats, wherewith they
* arme themselves to the destruction of mankinde. But untill they have refreshed
* themselves in the river, thou maist hide thy selfe here by me, under this great
* plaine tree, and as soone as their great fury is past, thou maist goe among the
* thickets and bushes under the wood side and gather the lockes their golden Fleeces,
* which thou shalt finde hanging up on the briers. Then spake the gentle and benigne
* reed, shewing a mean to Psyches to save her life, which she bore well in memory,
* and with all diligence went and gathered up such lockes as shee found, and put them
* in her apron, and carried them home to Venus. Howbeit the danger of this second
* labour did not please her, nor give her sufficient witnesse of the good service of
* Psyches, but with a sower resemblance of laughter, did say: Of a certaine I know
* that this is not thy fact, but I will prove if that thou bee of so stout, so good
* a courage, and singular prudency as thou seemest to be.
Venus tells Psyche to get golden fleece from fierce rams that live
near a river. Psyche want's to kill herself by throwing herself into
the river, but a green reed tells her simply to wait until the night
when the rams rest and then to collect some of their fleece that have
stuck to throrny bushes. It works and Venus is not happy.
The second, already more difficult task, cannot be solved by starting
to work on it immediately. It requires the patience to wait for the
right moment.
The two archetypes I use for the water signs are the different forms
of Water (ice-Cancer, water-Scorpio, vapour-Pisces) and the different
stages of a river (source-Cancer, river-Scorpio, sea-Pisces). It is
the transformation from Earth via Water to Air.
The main thing that a river does, is to flow down, to merge with
other rivers, to merge the literal "influences", to make them part
of himself. Cancer's icey shell has to melt and be penetrated
somewhat. Scorpio, being the middle sign of the element, is again
in a similar dilemma to Virgo: where and when should Scorpio
penetrate others or allow him-/herself to be penetrated by others?
And, again, the tendency is towards more penetration later in life.
Water is also much about feelings. Feelings are what make one person
do something for another without immediate material gain. So, Water,
being influence from and to others, does make use of others to
achieve one's own goals.
In that sense, using the force of the rams and the help of the reed
and the thorny bushes, is using influence, advice and help by others.
And, of course, since the rams are related to Aries, there is also
a direct link to Scorpio (via rulership of those two signs by Mars).
Again, more could be said, and, to some degree, there could also be
made a point for an assignment of this task to Fire, to some degree,
although, I hope to be able to interest the reader rather in task
no. 3 with regard to Fire...
The famous 4 tasks that Aphrodite/Venus gave to the young woman
called "Psyche" are well hidden in literature. Inside Lucius
Apuleius ("Africanus") book "The Golden Asse" written in Latin
in the first century AD/CE, which is essentially about the many
adventures of a guy who had been turned into an ass, is one
chapter, in which an old, drunken woman tells the story of how
Cupid and Psyche got together, "The most pleasant and delectable
tale of the marriage of Cupid and Psyche". Inside that tale,
which contains many, many interesting things, is a single
paragraph that describes the mentioned four tasks. They are,
very briefly:
1 - Sort a pile of seeds before nightfall
2 - Collect fleece from fierce rams that live near a river
3 - Get some water from the river Styx, which is surrounded
by steep sharp rocks and protected by monsters.
4 - Retrieve a box of ointments from Proserpina, Queen of
the underworld
In the subsequent four posts, I would like to relate each of
these four tasks to one of the four elements, and also to
developments that take place in the associated signs of the
zodiac. For example, I link task number 1 to Earth, i.e to a
process of sorting. Accordingly, for the three Earth signs,
Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn, the issue of sorting, of creating
order, is important, and order becomes more important for the
later signs, i.e. for Taurus order is not the most important
thing, for Virgo, there is ambivalence, and for Capricorn,
order is generally what is preferred to beauty.
But let me first give references to the material I am basing
this on, and also to mention previous work.
I intend to cite the whole paragraph of Psyche's Tasks in the
translation of "The Golden Asse" by Adlington of 1566. This
edition is widely available on the internet, at least the very
popular chapter about Cupid and Psyche. As far as I can tell,
the text is essentially no longer protected by copyright, as
its author and translator are dead for more than 100 years.
Here is one of many links to Adlington's translation:
http://eserver.org/books/apuleius/default.html
Here is a direct link to the chapter about Cupid and Psyche:
http://eserver.org/books/apuleius/bookes/five.html
If you are looking for Psyche's task, scroll down about 4/5
of the text there, and look for the paragraph that starts with:
"This proclamation was the cause that put all doubt from Psyches"
There is at least another, more modern translation of "The
Golden Ass", namely the one by Robert Graves:
The Golden Ass. Robert Graves. Farrar, Straus and Giroux (1998).
ISBN 0374505322. Paperback. 292 pages.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374505322
This translation is a lot more fluid to read than Adlington's
translation. According to the backflap of the book, Robert Graves
got knowledge of the book from the "Lawrence of Arabia":
"T.E. Lawrence carried it in his saddlebags with him all
through the Arab Revolt, and it was Lawrence who first
introduced the book to his friend Robert Graves."
In the subsequent four posts, I intend to make a case for linking
the four tasks to the four elements as follows:
1 - Earth - Sort a pile of seeds before nightfall
2 - Water - Collect fleece from fierce rams that live near a river
3 - Fire - Get some water from the river Styx
4 - Air - Retrieve a box of ointments from Proserpina
This is based on the ideas first presented in:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Where I specifically mention all four tasks and their connection
to the four elements (see sections "3.9.5 Leo", "3.9.6 Virgo",
"3.9.8 Scorpio", and "3.15 Mythology in Life").
Before and during writing that document I had looked at many things
on the web and in books. Apparently, a somewhat different version of
the tale, by Megan Wells, "Conscious Choice", January 1997,
http://www.consciouschoice.com/issues/cc101/psychestasks.html
has flown (without me being consciously aware of it) into my
retelling of at least one of the four tasks. The second article,
at the above site, is by Barbara Schermer, and links the four
tasks to the four elements. Although her assignment is different
from mine, it might be that it was that article that gave me the
initial idea to link elements to Psyche's Tasks (this is likely,
but I cannot be 100% certain of that, since I have no records
from that time besides my actual document).
Barbara Schermer's assignment is as follows:
1 - Earth - Winter - Capricorn - "Discriminating and Grounding"
2 - Fire - Spring - Aries - "Courage and Passion"
3 - Water - Summer - Cancer - "Healing and Intimacy"
4 - Air - Fall - Libra - "Detachment and Hope"
As you can see, she has 2 and 3 "mixed up" (from my perspective),
although I am certainly not saying that one assignment of the
two is "right" and the other "wrong", but I do consider mine
to be a better, more generally useful, fit.
To wrap up this post, here is the beginning of the paragraph about
Psyche's Task in Adlington's translation (see also brief summary
of its contents immediately afterwards):
* This proclamation was the cause that put all doubt from Psyches, who was scantly
* come in the sight of the house of Venus, but one of her servants called Custome
* came out, who espying Psyches, cried out with a loud voyce, saying, O wicked
* harlot as thou art, now at length thou shalt know that thou hast a mistresse
* above thee. What, dost thou make thy selfe ignorant, as though thou didst not
* understand what travell wee have taken in searching for thee? I am glad that thou
* art come into my hands, thou art now in the gulfe of hell, and shalt abide the
* paine and punishment of thy great contumacy, and therewithall she tooke her by
* the haire, and brought her in, before the presence of the goddesse Venus. When
* Venus spied her, shee began to laugh, and as angry persons accustome to doe, she
* shaked her head, and scratched her right eare saying, O goddesse, goddesse, you
* are now come at length to visit your husband that is in danger of death, by your
* meanes: bee you assured, I will handle you like a daughter: where be my maidens,
* Sorrow and Sadnesse? To whom (when they came) she delivered Psyches to be cruelly
* tormented; then they fulfilled the commandement of their Mistresse, and after
* they had piteously scourged her with rods and whips, they presented her againe
* before Venus; then she began to laugh againe, saying: Behold she thinketh (that
* by reason of her great belly, which she hath gotten by playing the whore) to move
* me to pitty, and to make me a grandmother to her childe. Am not I happy, that in
* the flourishing time of al mine age, shall be called a grandmother, and the sonne
* of a vile harlot shall bee accounted the nephew of Venus: Howbeit I am a foole to
* tearm him by the name of my son, since as the marriage was made betweene unequall
* persons, in the field without witnesses, and not by the consent of parents,
* wherefore the marriage is illegitimate, and the childe (that shall be borne) a
* bastard; if we fortune to suffer thee to live so long till thou be delivered.
* When Venus had spoken these words she leaped upon the face of poore Psyches, and
* (tearing her apparell) tooke her by the haire, and dashed her head upon the ground.
Psyche comes to the house of Venus. Custome drags her angily inside and
brings her before Venus. Venus calls her maidens, Sorrow and Sadnesse, who
take her away and beat her up. Afterwards Venus, especially angry to become
a grandmother, takes the pregnant Psychy by her hair and throws her head
down to the ground.
Here is Venus' fourth task to Psyche, in Adlington's translation
(see also quick summary immediately below):
* Take this box and to Hell to Proserpina, and desire her to send me a little of
* her beauty, as much as will serve me the space of one day, and say that such as
* I had is consumed away since my sonne fell sicke, but returne againe quickly,
* for I must dresse my selfe therewithall, and goe to the Theatre of the Gods:
* then poore Psyches perceived the end of all fortune, thinking verely that she
* should never returne, and not without cause, when as she was compelled to go to
* the gulfe and furies of hell. Wherefore without any further delay, she went up
* to an high tower to throw her selfe downe headlong (thinking that it was the next
* and readiest way to hell) but the tower (as inspired) spake unto her saying, O
* poore miser, why goest thou about to slay thy selfe? Why dost thou rashly yeeld
* unto thy last perill and danger? know thou that if thy spirit be once separated
* from thy body, thou shalt surely go to hell, but never to returne againe,
* wherefore harken unto me; Lacedemon a Citie in Greece is not farre hence: go thou
* thither and enquire for the hill Tenarus, whereas thou shalt find a hold [sic]
* leading to hell, even to the Pallace of Pluto, but take heede thou go not with
* emptie hands to that place of darknesse: but carrie two sops [*] sodden in the
* flour of barley and Honney in thy hands, and two halfepence in thy mouth. And
* when thou hast passed a good part of that way, thou shalt see a lame Asse
* carrying of wood, and a lame fellow driving him, who will desire thee to give him
* up the sticks that fall downe, but passe thou on and do nothing; by and by thou
* shalt come unto a river of hell, whereas Charon is ferriman, who will first have
* his fare paied him, before he will carry the soules over the river in his boat,
* whereby you may see that avarice raigneth amongst the dead, neither Charon nor
* Pluto will do any thing for nought: for if it be a poore man that would passe over
* and lacketh money, he shal be compelled to die in his journey before they will
* shew him any reliefe, wherefore deliver to carraine Charon one of the halfpence
* (which thou bearest for thy passage) and let him receive it out of thy mouth. And
* it shall come to passe as thou sittest in the boat thou shalt see an old man
* swimming on the top of the river, holding up his deadly hands, and desiring thee
* to receive him into the barke [*] , but have no regard to his piteous cry: when
* thou art passed over the floud, thou shalt espie old women spinning, who will
* desire thee to helpe them, but beware thou do not consent unto them in any case,
* for these and like baits and traps will Venus set to make thee let fall one of thy
* sops, and thinke not that the keeping of thy sops is a light matter, for if thou
* leese one of them thou shalt be assured never to returne againe to this world.
* Then shalt thou see a great and marvailous dogge, with three heads, barking
* continually at the soules of such as enter in, but he can do them no other harme,
* he lieth day and night before the gate of Proserpina, and keepeth the house of
* Pluto with great diligence, to whom if thou cast one of thy sops, thou maist have
* accesse to Proserpina without all danger: shee will make thee good cheere, and
* entertaine thee with delicate meate and drinke, but sit thou upon the ground, and
* desire browne bread, and then declare thy message unto her, and when thou hast
* received such beauty as she giveth, in thy returne appease the rage of the dogge
* with thy other sop, and give thy other halfe penny to covetous Charon, and come
* the same way againe into the world as thou wentest: but above all things have a
* regard that thou looke not in the boxe, neither be not too curious about the
* treasure of the divine beauty. In this manner the tower spake unto Psyches, and
* advertised her what she should do: and immediately she tooke two halfe pence, two
* sops, and all things necessary, and went to the mountaine Tenarus to go towards
* hell. After that Psyches had passed by the lame Asse, paid her halfe pennie for
* passage, neglected the old man in the river, denyed to helpe the woman spinning,
* and filled the ravenous mouth of the dogge with a sop, shee came to the chamber
* of Proserpina, onely contented with course bread, declared her message, and after
* she received a mysticall secret in a boxe, she departed, and stopped the mouth of
* the dogge with the other sop, and paied the boat-man the other halfe penny.
Venus orders Psyche to go down to the underworld to get a box of ointments
from the Queen of the underworld, Proserpina. Again, Psyche wants at first
to kill herself, goes up a high tower to throw herself down. The tower then
tells her how to proceed: "Take two barley cakes and two coins down to the
underworld, one coin for paying the ferryman each way, one barley cake to
divert the guardian dog each way. Don't have pity with the souls that will
ask you for a coin or something to eat. Only eat simple food and sit on the
floor when meeting Proserpina." She does so and gets out with the box.
Not astonishingly, the fourth and thus highest task is about twice as
long as the others. It is about the element Air, the most human element.
The task is to devise a concrete plan, based on all the knowledge and
overview that one has of the world.
The archetypal image that I use for Air is a cloud, that emits and
rececives lightning (Fire), grows from evaporated Water and rains it
down as rain. So, it is the transformation Fire via Air to Water.
Aquarius, the last Air sign, wants to distribute things evenly to all
of humanity, just like rain makes no difference between king and
regular guys. Gemini spends a lot of time learning about the world,
from books and by looking at many things from many sides, just like
the flame of a Fire. Gradually, that leads to more clarity and
transparency, logical connections between many things on this world
become more and more apparent, until it becomes possible to devise
and pull through a concrete plan with a high chance of success.
One thing is crucial though: Once you made the plan (if you made it
well), it is necessary to stick to it. Looking too much left and
right towards anything new and exciting, like Gemini does, can spoil
the plan. If Psyche had given one of her pennies away in the
underworld, or one of her barley cakes, she whould have had nothing
to pay the ferryman Charon or to divert the Cerberus on her way back.
The middle Air sign, Libra, is symbolized by a dead, artificial
instrument, the scales, unlike all other signs. That makes Libra and
thus Air both most human and most unhuman, not directly susceptible
to human pain and feelings.
Finally, here is how the story ends, again in Addlington's translation.
This is maybe more related to the 5th element (transformation) and to
the nodes (reincarnation in the dampened form of going to sleep and
then to awakening again, transformed), and it is also related to Hybris,
to the relation and the size of the human individual relative to Fate
-- then again, it also simply serves to let the story carry on...
* When Psyches was returned from hell, to the light of the world, shee was ravished
* with great desire, saying, Am not I a foole, that knowing that I carrie heere the
* divine beauty, will not take a little thereof to garnish my face, to please my
* love withall? And by and by shee opened the boxe where she could perceive no
* beauty nor any thing else, save onely an infernall and deadly sleepe, which
* immediately invaded all her members as soone as the boxe was uncovered, in such
* sort that shee fell downe upon the ground, and lay there as a sleeping corps.
(see end and beginning of story at link indicated in the first post)
Thanks for reading, if anybody :)
[This was all written within about 5 hours Sunday afternoon, 7 November 2004,
apparently with the help of some now very strong bi-/quintiles in the sky.]
)o+
I wrote:
: What do you do, if you are young and have hardly ever sorted
: anything out by yourself ? Well, in that case, the best approach
: is simply to start sorting things out one after the other. Often
: the time required to do so, will be astonishingly shorter than
: expected. In the task that is symbolized by the ants that carry
: the seeds to different heaps. It is a very low-intelligence part
: of the Psyche that does this task. Sorting seeds is easy.
Before the last sentence is interpreted too literally:
Virgo has a tendency to make things more complicated than
they really are. Virgo is the first sign of about six that
have to look at the harvest of spring and summer and to
decide what is worth to be saved for more than the current
cycle (year). First Virgo sorts and stacks in the harvest,
then Libra takes a first look at it, does some arrangements,
then, based on that symmetry, Scorpio can more directly smell
out where there might be something not ok, something that has
to be cut off from that sorted and balanced tree. Next,
Sagittarius takes another broad look at the harvest, then
Carpricorn uses that overview to make some simplifications
in the tree, while keeping it functioning, and finally
Aquarius removes a few more things that are not vital for
smooth functionality. (Pisces are already more concerned
with preparing new things to grow in spring and summer,
than with sorting the previous harvest).
So, a bit reformulated, the advice is maybe not to spend
too much time thinking about in which categories to sort
everything into, but rather to decide quickly, and then
let experience come with time and finally become able to
find good categories more or less automatically.
So, the subtle decision of Virgo is, which categories to
chose quickly and which ones not. *Then* sorting becomes
easy. And, intially, when one has too little experience
to chose good categories, any categories do, and sorting
into *these* is again easy.
Thus sorting seeds is easy, because with seeds, the choice
of categories is obvious.
Pedantus wrote:
: "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: news:hermes-BBDFF8.16275607112004@news.bluewin.ch...
: > The famous 4 tasks that Aphrodite/Venus gave to the young woman
: > called "Psyche" are well hidden in literature. Inside Lucius
: > Apuleius ("Africanus") book "The Golden Asse" written in Latin
: > in the first century AD/CE, which is essentially about the many
: > adventures of a guy who had been turned into an ass, is one
: > chapter, in which an old, drunken woman tells the story of how
: > Cupid and Psyche got together, "The most pleasant and delectable
: > tale of the marriage of Cupid and Psyche". Inside that tale,
: > which contains many, many interesting things, is a single
: > paragraph that describes the mentioned four tasks. They are,
: > very briefly:
: >
: > 1 - Sort a pile of seeds before nightfall
: > 2 - Collect fleece from fierce rams that live near a river
: > 3 - Get some water from the river Styx, which is surrounded
: > by steep sharp rocks and protected by monsters.
: > 4 - Retrieve a box of ointments from Proserpina, Queen of
: > the underworld
: >
:
: Hermes, these are the four cardinal point references, the ancients view
: of the sky and seasonal cycles( in the Age of Aries @ 40* N Lat.).
That statement is quite similar to Barbara Schermer's assignment,
which I mentioned in my original post:
: 1 - Earth - Winter - Capricorn - "Discriminating and Grounding"
: 2 - Fire - Spring - Aries - "Courage and Passion"
: 3 - Water - Summer - Cancer - "Healing and Intimacy"
: 4 - Air - Fall - Libra - "Detachment and Hope"
[Pedantus]
: Thus Virgo = the Sign rising before dawn in the seed time of the Fall,
: (this is ancient version of the morning news--the NBC Today Show and Al
: Roker's commentary...:)
: Aries = the Ram of Spring,
: Sag-Capricorn = the Mount of unpredictable god(s) of the polar
: heavens--the always dangerous North,
: Pisces et al in the "Deep" the imagined great sea--all the 'waters'
: beneath the Earth, in the South where the Sun enters the underworld in
: Winter and is resurrected in due time.
: Thus the "task" is meant to teach the perception of unity in the natural
: cycles by way *meaningful* personal experience.
You mean 1-Virgo, 2-Aries, 3-Sag/Capricorn, 4-Pisces ?
Autumn to spring, back to winter solistice, then winter again ?
No summer solistice ?
Please elaborate, I am interested.
: The elemental nature (scheme) of the Zodiacal Signs seem an irreconcilable
: reading of the myth of the tasks...the Elements seem to be incidental and
: not intended to be explicit categories.
The conclusion that something is not there because it was
maybe not consciously intended by a writer, does not mean
that it is not there. In fact, one could call this one of
the main attributes of a good artist, namely to "get things
right for the wrong reasons".
: As always, the bearer of bad news,
:
: Pedantus Pontificus....:)
Not so quickly, Hermes knows something about bringing news.
So, here is the essential message again:
* The four tasks of Psyche are exactly that: Four tasks for the
human psyche, the human mind. (That is simply a straightforward
application of Freud's trick to take what people say literally,
like when they say that they love their children or their pets).
* Since there are four tasks to the human psyche, they very likely
correspond essentially to the four basic psychological types of
people, which, in turn, correspond in a very obvious way to the
four classical elements of the Ancient Greeks. (C.G. Jung, and
much earlier medical stuff, I guess.)
* In my view, the elements come in the order heavy to light, i.e.
Earth - Water - Fire - Air. The more grounded ones are the
female ones, then come the male ones. This shows, of course,
also traces of a male Age, the Age of Aries. (According to
Robert Graves in the introduction of "The Golden Ass", the
story of Cupid and Psyche goes back to a much older folk tale,
geographically as far as the Hindukush, but, as far as I
remember, Robert Graves indicates no time frame.)
* I don't know if this direct correlation with the elements was
conscious to Lucius Apuleius, but it is probably more likely
that not all of it was. In my view, his text is very typically
Age of Pisces. The old, drunken woman telling the story further
ephasises this. Lifelong insight into the world can get things
right without conscious analysis or formal exposition.
* Note that I do not exclude other interpretations completely,
but I do consider them generally less useful (unless proven
otherwise, of course).
* I go into quite a bit of detail to expose exactly these points
in my five posts. (Five being, of course, a fitting number for
posts related to bi-/quintiles, and Hermes).
* Analysis by a natal Uranus/Pluto conjunction that took place
when Pluto-Saturn were in opposition at a square to them, can,
of course, appear too blunt, too simple to be true. However,
it would naive to expect such an analyis to simply blow up
into the smoke of nonexistence without a prior deeper look.
You can bet that this is good news! (^_^)*
)o+
--
* Japanese Smileys are horizontal, not vertical:
(^_^) basic smiley
(*^_^*) smiling and blushing
(-_-)zzz sleeping
Here are some more:
http://club.pep.ne.jp/~hiroette/en/facemarks/
Pedantus wrote:
[...]
: > : > 1 - Sort a pile of seeds before nightfall
: > : > 2 - Collect fleece from fierce rams that live near a river
: > : > 3 - Get some water from the river Styx, which is surrounded
: > : > by steep sharp rocks and protected by monsters.
: > : > 4 - Retrieve a box of ointments from Proserpina, Queen of
: > : > the underworld
[...]
: > [Pedantus]
: > : Thus Virgo = the Sign rising before dawn in the seed time of the Fall,
: > : (this is ancient version of the morning news--the NBC Today Show and Al
: > : Roker's commentary...:)
: > : Aries = the Ram of Spring,
: > : Sag-Capricorn = the Mount of unpredictable god(s) of the polar
: > : heavens--the always dangerous North,
: > : Pisces et al in the "Deep" the imagined great sea--all the 'waters'
: > : beneath the Earth, in the South where the Sun enters the underworld in
: > : Winter and is resurrected in due time.
: > : Thus the "task" is meant to teach the perception of unity in the natural
: > : cycles by way *meaningful* personal experience.
: >
: > You mean 1-Virgo, 2-Aries, 3-Sag/Capricorn, 4-Pisces ?
: > Autumn to spring, back to winter solistice, then winter again ?
: > No summer solistice ?
: >
: > Please elaborate, I am interested.
: >
:
: The ancients used irregularly spaced constellations, not thirty degree
: signs, so modern Zodiacal division don't line up often, if at all. Sure,
: Summer is in the task list as the experience of drought; but it is not the
: signs Cancer and Leo the task is concerned with. It is the polar stars of
: the North that they watched for omens of ill fate at the hands of those bad
: natured stars in the summer night sky---you had to kiss their ugly butts and
: hope you and your veggies, wouldn't die of thirst...:) The Sun 'falls' from
: its Northern most position at the Summer Solstice...it is dethroned by the
: "monsters" and remains in a very bad mood in the Dog days--Sirius rising
: just before dawn.
: Capricorn through Pisces is all Water hence the Goatfish. Its all quite
: a mess and not the least bit neatly divided...:) Spring is the grain
: harvests, Summer is drought, Fall is oil and wine, Winter yearly threatens
: the very end of the very world....only faith in the Sun god will bring it
: back from the Underworld.
Thanks. :)
I am sure your approach leads can lead to the direct
historical roots of Psyche's tasks. However, what you
write still seems to be a bit inconsistent to me:
Which task is spring ?
Task 2 with "Aries = the Ram of Spring" ?
Or task 1, "Spring is the grain harvests" ?
Which task is summer ?
Task 3, "Sure, Summer is in the task list as the
experience of drought", right ?
Which task is autumn ?
Task 4, "Fall is oil and wine", because "oil" and
Proserpina's box of ointments ? Or in which task
is there "oil and wine" ?
Which task is winter ?
--
I feel it is necessary to reannounce the postmodern message,
the post-9/11 depth-psycholocial interpretation of the four
Tasks of Psyche, this time without any decorations:
* The four Tasks of Psyche are exactly that: Four tasks for the
human psyche, the human mind.
* Thus the tasks correspond to the four basic psychological types
and hence to the four elements.
* The elements are in the order heavy to light (Earth - Water -
Fire - Air); the female, more grounded, basic tasks come first.
* The story represents the deep insights of Pisces into nature,
since it is told by an old, drunken woman and because it had
been written down by Apuleius near the start of that Age.
* I do not exclude other interpretations, but consider them to
be less useful, thus less important (unless proven otherwise).
* Read my posts, they provide detailed evidence.
Hermes/Mercury is related to Quintiles and Biquintiles, which are
related to magic. Hermes helped the Fates to invent the Alphabet.
So, maybe Quintiles and Biquintiles are also about "magical spells"
(at least writing appears to go more easily at the moment, with
tight Quintiles Saturn-Jupiter-Pluto-Uranus, and thus three thight
Biquintiles Saturn-Pluto, Jupiter-Uranus, Uranus-Saturn).
Hence, maybe it is necessary to say the same thing three times to
get an effect.
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
The post below was first posted 19 May 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical.
It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
views.
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
--
In condensed form:
me, see: space, in/out
pictures change: time, rest/move
fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
want, pictures change differently: 5th element
Long version:
Let me start with a similar text that I wrote in 1993,
which was actually at the root of my journey into
philosophy, psychology, astrology, etc.
me, conscious
see
changes: time
more than one thing,
something else than me: space
want: pictures change
Kant discovered (or argued, if you prefer) that space
and time are the most fundamental things, the only things
that exist "a priori". Both are necessary for thinking.
The idea is to imagine that one opens one's eyes for the
first time and sees...
One thing that one notices, is that what one sees changes.
That is time.
In addition, there is more than one thing that can be
seen, and there is the conscious "I" that observes and
the pictures that are seen. That is space (anything that
separates two "things").
Without space and time, thinking is not possible.
Finally, one notices also that, depending on how one wants
what one sees to change, things will change differently
(Schopenhauer), although not necessarily in the way one
would like to. That is (free) will.
Now, that was where I was standing in 1993, simply putting
what Kant and Schopenhauer had discovered about 200 years
earlier into condensed form.
More than 10 years later, last Wednesday (2004-05-18) the
situation was a bit different: Saturn is in Cancer and
Chiron in Capricorn, which has, in my observation, the
effect that one is forced to reduce the "home" zone, to
retract a bit to an inner core and start to grow new things,
especially relations, gently from there, while avoiding
some of the old relations because they needed to be
removed (Chiron's healing). Luckily, Jupiter in Virgo is
helpful for growing new structures, even repeatedly.
Brief, I managed to connect a few things that I learned
in the meantime in a potentially very promising way.
Aristotle had the four elements composed of dry/wet and
hot/cold. During my newsgroup posts, I discovered a few
different ways of looking at this composition. One of
them is that in/out can be identified with wet/dry.
Many things, especially organic ones, are wetter inside
than outside. What is measured in science, is what can
be seen and touched (fire and earth), while quantum
mechanics uses logic (air) to describe what happens in
the world by a wave function (water).
If you link that to the fundamental link between space
and subject/object or in/out, you have linked one of the
two opposites that define the four elements directly to
space and thus to a primary necessity for thinking.
Now, with that working, I tried to get time in, in the
same way. Hot/cold does not do, but recently, I had
discovered here (also with some help by DJ) that the
opposite rest/move can also be used to describe one of
the two necessary pairs of opposites to describe the
four elements. Fire moves up, air rests (actively),
water flows down, earth rests again.
So the observation that some things that one sees move,
is nothing else than the discovery of the opposite
rest/move, which is practically equivalent to the
discovery that there is time, the other thing that is
fundamentally needed for thinking.
So, to get things across as clearly as possible: From
the basic experiences in/out and rest/move, one gets
space and time and can *define* the four elements:
fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
Now, where's the clue?
Well, that was already the clue. It is an almost formal
reasoning that leads to the existence of four elements.
In other words, if the reasoning is correct, then the
fact that there are the four elements, in the way that
Aristotle and others postulated them, is not just a
cultural thing, but a property of *nature*, i.e. it is
physics, not "just" philosophy, psychology, astrology.
Of course, a lot will depend on whether that concept
can actually grow, whether it will be possible to
derive more of the properties of the four elements
and maybe even star signs, or the I Ching, etc. and,
of course, link that to quantitative experiments.
For the moment, at least the 5th element fits nicely:
The observation that, depending on how one wants
what one sees to change, things change differently,
defines (free) will, a concept separate of the four
elements that can be called/defined "5th element".
Again, the approach is different, a concept that is
common in astrology or maybe also psychology, has been
defined as something quite fundamental and necessary
for thinking and living.
Finally, note that Neptune is transiting in opposition
to my sun, so maybe things will stay at that and the
rest will remain an illusion, or do so for the moment.
I wrote:
: It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
: plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
: look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
: all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
: also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
: views.
Why not post them here directly...
(And thanks to Esa for his reply, however ambivalent it may have been)
)o+
--
* 2004-08-31 20:01 Zurich, 18:01 UTC
"Wiggle your big toe"
-- The Bride (Uma Thurman) in the movie "Kill Bill",
while sitting in the back of a van, to her big toe,
part of her legs that are lame after 4 years of coma.
(Uranus in Pisces: Aquarius is the middle of winter,
nature is as dead as it can be; when the sun enters
Pisces, some faint signs of life start already to
re-emerge; Uranus (consciousness, no longer coma)
in Pisces (feet, and thus toes))
Hi everybody,
When I registered the domain name "exactphilosophy.net"
in March 2000, I did not have a precise idea of what
"exactphilosophy" could be, but the name did feel right,
especially for somebody like me with Saturn right at the
end of Pisces...
I would like to construct/synthesize some things in the
world in a precise manner that have not been accessible
to exact methods previously, including, of course, also
psychological phenomena and astrology.
The idea is to grow the definition of the five elements
that I gave in
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=hermes-D2B436.23443619052004%40news.bluewin.ch
namely
* in/out (space)
* rest/move (time)
* fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, water:=in+move, air:=in+rest
* free will: what transforms the elements into each other
into a model that makes very few assumptions (and states
them clearly) and still reproduces many properties of the
world.
I guess this must sound pretty abstract, so let me simply
try to make the first next step ("wiggle my big toe"):
* active/passive
inside effort (activity) is required to keep things at rest
outside things come macroscopically to rest in a closed system
In more detail:
It is no big deal to look at, say, a tree, for five minutes,
i.e. to keep the outside picture essentially at rest. But
inside the head, the same task is a lot more difficult, if
not impossible: Try to imagine a tree with closed eyes and
neither having the tree move or morph nor thinking about
something else for five minutes.
Thus inside, effort is necessary to keep things at rest.
Since air was defined as in+rest, air is active, whereas
water that was defined as in+move, is passive.
In the outside world, things are more complex. I do not
think that I understand things in that respect fully, so
here are simply some thoughts:
- solid non-living things like a pebble or a chair only
move if one actively makes them move and stop moving
relatively quickly if one does nothing.
- other things in nature seem to move indefinitely, like
a river and living things like animals apparently even
start to move on their own.
- microscopically, there is always some random motion of
the atoms, molecules etc., nothing ever rests.
- any closed system reaches "thermal equilibrium" after
some time, a state where no macroscopic motion is left,
only microscopic motion of a certain average speed,
which is equivalent to a constant temperature.
- (the planet earth has roughly a constant temperature,
but it is not in thermal equilibrium; it is the sun
that provides earth with order, because the radiation
from the sun is from a well-defined direction (the sun)
whereas the excessive heat is radiated from earth into
all directions)
- it is not sure if the universe is a closed system.
- for most people in most situations, maybe more "pixels"
of what is seen are at rest than in motion.
- what about sound and smells etc. ?
So, as a preliminary conclusion, air is active, water is
passive, and macroscopically in closed systems, earth is
passive (since defined as out+rest), and fire active.
Some very informal ideas, where one could go from here:
People are more active when there is more light (daytime)
and less active when it is dark. Thus active/passive is
maybe largely equivalent to
- light/dark
- day/night
- awake/sleep
- conscious/unconscious
- hot/cold (days warmer than nights)
- high/low (hot stuff rises)
- light/heavy (hot stuff rises)
- tall/short
- men/women (men taller, more active role in sex)
- ...
That yields already a lot of things, but it is only
identification, not actual synthesis yet. How can one,
say, define the property concrete/abstract of the axis
Aries/Libra from the elements and the opposites above?
In my model, where Aries is the first stage of a burning
fire, i.e. mainly earth (wood) and not much air yet,
and Libra is a cloud (air) that balances fire (lightning)
and water (rain); is it possible to define something
like "concrete" and "abstract" based on the mixture of
the four elements ? Difficult to say, but it feels like
it might be possible, although I do not know how to do
this concretely at the moment.
So, I intend to post whenever I feel that I have found
something substantial and new. Feel free to contribute
ideas and thoughts or only to read an react internally.
Thanks in advance in any case!
alain
I wrote:
: It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
: plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
: look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
: all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
: also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
: views.
Why not post them here directly...
(And thanks to Esa for his reply, however ambivalent it may have been)
)o+
--
Let me start again with:
* in/out (space)
* rest/move (time)
* fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, water:=in+move, air:=in+move
"The problem is choice."
-- Neo to the Architect in the movie "The Matrix Reloaded"
Let me try once more:
The four elements change into each other. They do so
with and without my influence, but my conscious choices
have some effect on what transforms into what.
* fifth element:= what changes the four elements into each other
* free will:= my influence on it
The word "choice" implies not only consciousness, but
also "activity" of some sort, namely the conscious,
active choice when to be active and when passive.
Views in the West:
"active/passive" is associated with "male/female",
"day/night" and "conscious/unconscious". Therefore,
"free will" in the definition above (but not the
"fifth element") would be male.
Views in the East:
In the I Ching there are 8 hexagrams that seem to be
practically identical to the four Western (Greek)
elements, in resting and moving form:
I:I fire, light-giving, 2nd daughter -- resting fire
::I thunder, inciting/movement, 1st son -- moving fire
III heaven, strong, father -- resting air
II: wind/wood, penetrating, 1st daughter -- moving air
:II lake/mist, joyful, 3rd daughter -- resting water
:I: water, dangerous, 2nd son -- moving water
I:: mountain, resting, 3rd son -- resting earth
::: earth, devoted/yielding, mother -- moving earth
Link: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
It is interesting that, if one uses the identification
of rest with active if inside and of rest with passive
if outside, as I proposed in the previous post, that
this selects the male hexagrams (father and the three
sons) of the I Ching...
alain
PS: Quite a few things that were evoked by me and Esa
seem to be linked to the relation of Chiron and the
sun: Bride, jungle, meditation, life, balance, male
and female, earth, ...
Here are a few clues:
- mortal Peleus wrestling with immortal Thetis
(Chiron, free will, Anima, Leo, focus in meditation)
chapter 81 in Robert Graves (sun in Leo) book "The
Greek Myths", Penguin Books, combined edition, 1992
(clue: what are the two main differences in this myth
from all other "chase/transformation/rape" myths?)
- google for some or all of "sun" "earth" "life"
"entropy" "Schrodinger" "What is Life?"
(how the earth and living beings depend on being
able to export disorder into the environment, how
the sun is not only a source of energy, but also
of order, and why the two are inseparable)
- Kerry and 'Nam (jungle), his wife "straight from the
horse's mouth" (born in Mocambique, grew up in South
Africa, both close to the mouth of the horse's head
that Africa is, if looked at from the side; Chiron
is, of course, half horse)
- help for googlers: Cheiron, Kairon, Kairos
I wrote:
: It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
: plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
: look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
: all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
: also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
: views.
Why not post them here directly...
(And thanks to Esa for his reply, however ambivalent it may have been)
)o+
--
Here is my next attempt:
* 'in'/'out' (space)
* 'rest'/'move' (time)
* 'fire':='out'+'move', 'earth':='out'+'rest', 'water:='in'+'move', 'air':='in'+'move'
* 'fifth element':= what changes the four elements into each other
* 'free will':= my influence on it
* 'fate':= its influence on me
I put all things that I defined between apostrophes ('),
in order to avoid confusion with the "real" things they
are supposed to model. Let me explain the difference:
A priori, 'fire' is only outside and moves, it has, so far,
none of the typical attributes of a real fire or of fire in
astrology, namely heat, light, movement up, quickness, etc.
Of course, the idea is to define 'fire' such that logical
deduction will yield such additional attributes, but that
will probably not work out with the first attempt (or the
first "matrix") but will take many iterations where things
will be redefined.
That is nothing else than usual exact science. Any theory in
physics is only correct until proven wrong by experiment.
After all, a scientific theory is an attempt to model reality
(earth in western astrological symbolism) with logic (air),
i.e. to describe something that is considered female (namely
the element earth) by something considered male (air).
That is also the story in "The Matrix" trilogy of movies; the
architect tries to create a balanced matrix, and the oracle
then tries to bring it off balance (according to her own words
in the movie). So, in essence, I am only trying to create an
increasingly more accurate model of the world, starting with
somewhat different "bricks" than other people before me, and
I am well aware that all the models will fail in some way,
in fact it will be precisely the failures that will lead to
deeper insights and improved models...
What use is such a model, if it will invariably be wrong ?
Well, I think it's twofold. First, with time it will not be
very much wrong for most practical purposes, so it will be
useful. Second, it will maybe provide some people (like
scientists) access to things that were beyond their reach
previously. For example, typical scientists cannot handle
imprecise definitions. Conversations with, say astrologers,
often fail already because the astrologer might use words
like "energy" or "power" in a different and, in some sense,
less precise way than the definitions that scientists are
used to (energy is force integrated over a path, power is
energy per time, etc.).
Things will still be difficult, since what I want to model is
at least what western astrology and eastern philosophies do,
which includes many things that are not currently part of
exact science, things like love, fate, death, religion, the
differences between men and women, politics, law, anything.
I guess to get scientists to dare to go there, is only
possible if definitions are clear and the rest is logical
consequences of the definitions, or at least makes a clear
distinction between strictly logical consequences and
additional choices (definitions) along the way. In fact,
I hope to represent different philosophical/astrological
systems simply as different choices about how to look a the
world, and I hope to do this with very little choices, say
maybe 5 or less, if possible.
Having said this, at the moment, I do not see through the
way west and east differ exactly, so just a few thoughts:
- in the east, the opposites seem to be less rigid than in
the west, seem to be more flowing (like in the yin/yang
symbol); so maybe the eastern view is wet in the sense
of the wet western elements water and air, while in the
west, things are dryer (earth and fire)
- since 'air' and 'water' are 'in' (please note that I am
now using apostrophes, i.e. I am trying to be more exact)
and things are often wetter inside than outside, one
could define 'wet'/'dry':= 'in'/'out'
- in the east, in and out seem maybe more exchangable, see
at least the butterfly dream of Taoist philosopher Chuang
Tzu, where he dreamt that he was a butterfly and, when he
awoke, he was not sure whether he had dreamt that he was a
butterfly or whether he was actually a butterfly who was
now dreaming that he was Chuang Tzu...
- traditionally, europe was west and asia east, so where is
america, east or west or both ?
- in the first Matrix movie, Neo is offered two pills by
Morpheus (god of dreams), a blue one and a red one, the
blue one will keep him in the matrix, the red one will
reveal the "real" world to him; like many things in the
USA, there is also a quite direct interpretation possible,
namely the choice (in 1998) between 4 more democratic years
(blue) or a republican president (red); this time around,
things have flipped, now the blue pill would represent a
change of party, "reality"
- since Gemini is quite prominent in the US chart and since
communism (which I link strongly to Aquarius, or at least
to his shadow, because it puts collective interests so
much above personal ones) was quite successful in the east,
I am tempted to try with america-gemini, europe-libra, and
asia-aquarius, as an initial working hypothesis
Next time, I hope to have a more specific next step and maybe
also some concrete fruits about western star signs, derived
from the model. So, might take little while...
alain
I wrote:
: It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
: plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
: look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
: all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
: also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
: views.
Why not post them here directly...
(And thanks to Esa for his reply, however ambivalent it may have been)
)o+
--
wake up... (live, love, node, gate)
me, see: in/out (space)
what I see changes: rest/move (time)
fire:= out+move
air:= in+rest
water:= in+move
earth:= out+rest
depending on how I want what I see to change,
things will change differently: free will
ether (5th element):= free will
to be continued inside...
thread is going to sleep (public to private)...
for about ten years, or so...
see you then, bye...
--
Copyright (C) 2004 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
I wrote:
: It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
: plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
: look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
: all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
: also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
: views.
Why not post them here directly...
(And thanks to Esa for his reply, however ambivalent it may have been)
)o+
--
Female reflection...
alain@wei.chi did not write:
: go to sleep... (die, hate, node, gate)
:
: we, feel: in/out (=we/our parts, space)
: what we feel changes: rest/move (time)
:
: fire':= out+move
: air':= in+rest
: water':= in+move
: earth':= out+rest
:
: depending on how we want what we feel to change,
: things will change differently: free fate
:
: ether (5th element):= free fate
:
: to be continued outside...
: thread is waking up (private to public)...
: for about ten years, or so...
:
: feel each other now, hello...
:
: --
: Nocopyleft (feel) anytime by everyone. No Lefts Unreserved.
to be refined...
I wrote:
: It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
: plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
: look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
: all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
: also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
: views.
Why not post them here directly...
(And thanks to Esa for his reply, however ambivalent it may have been)
)o+
--
My original approach
* me, see: space, in/out
* pictures change: time, rest/move
* fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
* want, pictures change differently: 5th element
and then maybe expanded by
* active/passive
inside effort (activity) is required to keep things at rest
outside things come macroscopically to rest in a closed system
and then synthesizing other concepts from opposites,
seems to be the best approach to reach something that
would deserve the name "exactphilosophy".
Why cut Eastern-style input ?
Reason 1: Science is Western. So, in order to build
a scientific, exact form of philosophy, a Western
approach, is, at least intially, the path to go.
Reason 2: I consider the Greek, Libra-style, approach
to nature, which does bring things alternatively out
of and into balance, better able to describe the other
(Eastern) approaches than the other way round. Maybe
that assumption will turn out to be false in the more
remote future, but, for now, this is my decision.
Reason 3: I prefer my approach. It feels simply like
the way to go for me at this time.
Reason 4: My approach is better at home at home than
to emerge in a public place. Although aat is a special
place, it is still a part of usenet and its fate, as
well as of its parent groups, and of Orwell's "Oceania".
I want to grow exactphilosophy in Switzerland, out of
my own background. (Kant, Freud, Einstein, Taoism, etc.
My father's ETH diploma thesis was titled "Raum, Zeit
und Architektur", i.e. "Space, Time and Architecture")
Reason 5: Taoism, unlike the I Ching, seems a lot more
universal and general, and thus not in the way of what
I want to do.
I:I :I:
--
Reason 6: A hobby should not consume all of my life
energy (like the eagle that eats Prometheus' liver).
Therefore, some separation from the world (especially
from insatiable usenet) and some form of limitation
is necessary.
--
Reason 7: Should something relevant for the public emerge
from my hobby (which is not certain at all), it would be
ideal if the findings had their main inspiration from and
their main application in the Western zodiac and would be
generally rooted in Western philosophy and culture.
I could then probably quite quickly and easily write down
my findings, while citing renowned astrologers richly and
analyzing their views in terms of my simpler model. Add a
few color figures, take care not to make any mental jumps,
but to explain everything (maybe in footnotes), and finally
print the whole document out in many copies and send them
to anybody who would likely be interested in it.
That should do the trick to generate public interest.
--
I wrote:
: I could then probably quite quickly and easily write down
: my findings, while citing renowned astrologers richly and
: analyzing their views in terms of my simpler model. Add a
: few color figures, take care not to make any mental jumps,
: but to explain everything (maybe in footnotes), and finally
: print the whole document out in many copies and send them
: to anybody who would likely be interested in it.
:
: That should do the trick to generate public interest.
Why not do that alreay today, with what I already found
out so far ?
For all that I can see, other people are not at able at
the moment to "feel" or "see" that my approach is useful,
that it is more than just selective perception, the
writings of a "mostly harmless", intelligent, but rather
eccentric person.
What I found out, is too different from how people think
today, especially "experts", it is too much of a "paradigm
shift" to be recognizable (or "not ignorable") without a
clear, precise step-by-step exposition. Only then will it
become a subject worth/necessary to consider.
That's the natural fate of really new things: Ignored
(simply not realized to be interesting and partially
also unconsciously rejected from fear), then attacked
(simple misunderstandings and partially also the
result of unconscious fears of too much change, on a
collective as well as on a personal level, including
threats to one's professional career), and finally,
when accepted, not attributed much importance.
I am exaggerating a bit, of course. Still, Einstein did
not get a Nobel Prize for the Theory of Relativity.
Quantum Mechanics, which is a lot less tangible in real
life than, say, the "Twin Paradox", had no such trouble
to yield Nobel Prizes. When I was in Swiss Military and
told others that I was a physicist, they always asked
me about Einstein and the puzzles with time and space
not always being the same, but never about QM.
So, in that sense, I could also consider myself happy
to have found out something that does interest people,
not only some specialists, but everybody.
I wrote:
: It shows, in my opinion, that there is more than culture to the four
: plus one elements. The interested reader might also want to take a
: look at later posts, especially the thread "exactphilosophy" (it's
: all archived at groups.google.com or at my web site), which reveals
: also some quite interesting connections between Western and Eastern
: views.
Why not post them here directly...
(And thanks to Esa for his reply, however ambivalent it may have been)
)o+
--
* 'in'/'out' (space)
* 'rest'/'move' (time)
* 'fire':='out'+'move', 'earth':='out'+'rest',
'water:='in'+'move', 'air':='in'+'move'
* 'fifth element':= what changes the four into each other
I think I found out how the 8 trigrams of the I Ching,
the Chinese "Book of Changes", relate to the above.
There are 8 possible transitions (changes, pun!) between
the elements as defined above, that flip only one of the
property pairs 'in'/'out' and 'rest'/'move', namely:
- 'fire' to 'water' (flips 'out' to 'in')
- 'water' to 'fire' (flips 'in' to 'out')
- 'earth' to 'air' (flips 'out' to 'in')
- 'air' to 'earth' (flips 'in' to 'out')
- 'fire' to 'earth' (flips 'move' to 'rest')
- 'earth' to 'fire' (flips 'rest' to 'move')
- 'water' to 'air' (flips 'move' to 'rest')
- 'air' to 'water' (flips 'rest' to 'move')
In other words, the 8 trigrams could be seen as 8 facets
of the 'fifth element'. Richard Wilhelm writes in "The I
Ching or Book of Changes" (Penguin Books, rendered into
English by Cary F. Baynes, Introduction):
: The eight trigrams are symbols standing for transitional states;
: they are images that are constantly undergoing change. Attention
: centers not on things in their state of being -- as is chiefly the
: case in the Occident -- but upon their movements in change. The
: eight trigrams therefore are not representations of things as such
: but of their tendencies in movement.
The term "things as such" refers almost certainly to Kant.
With 4 planets now in Libra, a view of the world based on
interaction, naturally comes to focus. And it fits with the
Piscean view (Uranus in Pisces) that a lot is relative.
For example, did astrologers look at the synastry between
the two US presidential candidates (i.e. at the relative,
interactive position between their planets) ? Might even be
crucial, since the first debate could indicate that having
each candidate speak alone in front of a crowd, makes the
republican candidate appear more presidential, while when
the two meet in public, things appear to shift somewhat.
So far, I have not been able to match trigrams to specific
transitions. Maybe it is even the wrong set of transitions,
maybe it is more Aristotles' cycle Fire-Air-Water-Earth-Fire
(where each time one of dry/wet and hot/cold flips).
This was the fifth post, hence it was related to the fifth
element, and to Mercury. I have heard of the grand Quintile
that will form two times before the elections. Quintiles
are related to the Golden Ratio, because the ratio between
a side of a decagon (10 sides) and the radius of the circle
is the Golden Ratio, about 0.618. This allows to construct
an angle of 36* and thus 72* and the pentagon. Symbolically
there is thus a relation to the sun (golden) and to beauty
and harmony, because the Golden Ratio in things and nature
appears as such (thus Venus, and also Libra/Taurus).
alain
(MT-Newswatcher does not allow empty messages, otherwise this one would be)
Ray Murphy wrote:
: RM: No, astrology is not a religion because:
:
: (1) It is not a belief-system.
: (2) It does not require "faith".
: (3) It does not have a heirarchy.
: (4) It does not have any rule book.
: (5) It does not make any promises.
: (6) It does not ask for any "offerings"
: (7) It does not have a registered office.
: (8) It does not "excommunicate" anyone.
: (9) It does not require adherance to rules.
: (10) It does not have a "higher authority"
: (11) It does not apply any "penalties".
: (12) It does not have "membership".
: (13) It does not involve "rituals".
: (14) It does not use "initiation".
: (15) It does not use "prayer".
:
: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,
: then it's a duck".
Interesting that also Taoism fits with none of the above,
except that there is a book, the "Tao Te Ching". But then
again, that book starts with "The Tao that can be named
is not the real Tao.", which would logically entail that
it is not possible to write or even read a book about it...
Concerning astrology as it is today, I still think that the
label that Robert Hand proposed in one of collected Essays
on Astrology, namely "craft" is the best description.
Such was chemistry a few hundred years ago. If you look at
all the different substances that we encounter every day,
like water, iron, a leaf, wood, air, one would think that
it would be impossible to find a science that can explain
all of it. Even more so, if you look at what happens when
you mix different substances. For example, as we know now,
ordinary salt is composed of Sodium (Na) and Chlorine (Cl).
Na is a soft metallic substance that starts to burn if you
throw it into water, while Cl is a very aggressive gas
that corrodes many metals, execpt (among probably others)
Aluminum, because it is usually covered by an oxide layer
(Saphire).
And, yet, today we have the Periodic Table of the Elements,
containing all the elements of which other materials are
made of, while the element themselves can essentially be
described by three numbers, the number of protons, neutrons
and electrons they are made of, plus a number of formulas.
Of course, the same could be done with astrology, and even
with mythology, with many things in our culture. Should it
be done ? That is entirely your call.
During the Middle Ages, people were quite strictly against
any analysis, but in the Renaissance things changed, even
Leonardo da Vinci opened graves secretly to explore the
anatomy of the human body.
Which is better ? Pisces or Virgo ? Synthesis or analysis ?
As it is probably clear to any astrologer, none of the two
sides of this opposite is "right" and none is "wrong", but
sometimes people feel that a decision has to be made.
Is it good to know that the heart is just a pump ? On the
one hand, that destroyed many beautiful (but scientifically
wrong) beliefs, on the other hand, that knowledge can make
our lives longer. I don't know which is "better".
What is known is always less than what is not known. All the
exact science that mankind has developed can be formulated
with a finite number of bits, as a finite heap of numbers,
while even the simplest things that are unknown carry an
infinite amount of possibilities.
So, saying that the Four Tasks of Psyche are most strongly
related to the four elements in a specific order, is nothing
else than, say, saying that most people have two eyes, or
two legs, two arms and one head, etc. That does not explain
the mysteries of life, why we can see colors, feel things.
So far, no scientist has been able to find a soul or even
only to find out how consciousness comes about...
Astrology is mostly pragmatic, Virgo. And, considering also
Ray Murphy's above list, it is related to the number nine,
because the Tao Te Ching comes in 81 = 9 x 9 parts, which
relate it back to the ninth planet in astrology, Neptune...
So, here is what you might want to remember from this post:
Astrology is a duck! ;)
(A pragmatic animal that lives mostly on the water and can fly.)
one/nineteen
I wrote:
: Astrology is mostly pragmatic, Virgo. And, considering also
: Ray Murphy's above list, it is related to the number nine,
: because the Tao Te Ching comes in 81 = 9 x 9 parts, which
: relate it back to the ninth planet in astrology, Neptune...
In order also to show that a kind of thinking like mine, with
Uranus conjunct Pluto in Virgo, can lead to quite deep and
mysterious places, I would like to repost a short series of
posts, which were originally posted to alt.astrology.tropical
a bit earlier this year.
The posts start with a quote by Liz Greene at the Astrology
World Congress 2004 in Basel, Switzerland, which I did not
really understand (analytically) then, if it can be really
"understood" in that sense at all. If you know Liz Greene
(resp. her works), it will probably not astonish you, that
things will lead deep, so this is maybe nothing for the
faint at heart. Or maybe that is only my personal perception
due to the mutual Sun-Pluto reception in synastry, or due
to the moment I met her and gave her my chart to eventually
discuss it in a seminar she gave 6 November 1999 (the time
I handed her my chart was probably closely before 1:30 pm),
nothing was planned consciously (at least not by me).
The seminar was about Saturn (which I have, retrograde and
almost at rest, at the end of Pisces).
Here is the first and maybe most mysterious post (1 May 2004):
Sedna's Fingers
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Poseidon (the Greek equivalent of Neptune) had a
son called Agenor (with Libya) who had five sons
and a sister, called Europe..
Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 58b+c:
: Zeus, falling in love with Europe sent Hermes to drive Agenor's
: cattle down to the seashore at Tyre, where she and her companion
: used to walk. He himself joined the herd, disguised as a snow-
: white bull with great dewlaps and small, gem-like horns, between
: which ran a single black streak. Europe was struck by his beauty
: and, on finding him gentle as a lamb, mastered her fear and
: began to play with him, putting flowers in his mouth and hanging
: garlands on his horns; in the end, she climbed upon his shoulders,
: and let him amble down with her to the edge of the sea. Suddenly
: he swam away, while she looked back in terror at the receding
: shore; one of her hands clung to his right horn, the other still
: held a flower-basket.
: Wading ashore near Cretan Gortyna, Zeus became an eagle and
: ravished Europe in a willow-thicket beside a spring; or, some say,
: under an evergreen plane-tree. She bore him three sons: Minos,
: Rhadamanthys, and Sarpedon.
Tonite a midnite, shortly after Mercury went direct
and with the sun conjunct the northern node in Taurus,
several Eastern European States joined the EU, Europe.
Yesterday evening, I somewhat accidentally ended up in
a Czech movie from the year 2000 called "Otesanek" by
Jan Svankmajer (born 4th September 1934 with a Cancer
asendent, according to his web site). The surrealist
movie is based on a fairy tale: The husband of a couple
who cannot have children accidentally digs up the root
of a tree that looks a bit like a baby and gives it as
a present to his wife. To cut things very short, she
adopts the baby and it comes to life through that love,
grows quickly bigger and hungrier and, in the fairy
tale, eats his parents and then a number of people and
their animals, until the Otesanek meats an old woman
who he wants to eat, but she uses a garden tool to
wound his belly and all the animals and people he had
eaten crawl out again...
Instead of a detailed analysis, just a few hints:
Neptune - Poseideon - Taurus (Artisan, Bull, Crete, Minos)
Neptune in Aquarius, a dream of universal unification;
what happens when everything has apparently been fused
together ? - the things that are equal become invisible
and the remaining differences become ever more apparent
old woman (twice) - Pisces
Sedna was at today's spot of the n.node in autumn 1989...
Contrary to the fairy tale, the surrealist movie leaves
the end open...
I wrote:
: Astrology is mostly pragmatic, Virgo. And, considering also
: Ray Murphy's above list, it is related to the number nine,
: because the Tao Te Ching comes in 81 = 9 x 9 parts, which
: relate it back to the ninth planet in astrology, Neptune...
In order also to show that a kind of thinking like mine, with
Uranus conjunct Pluto in Virgo, can lead to quite deep and
mysterious places, I would like to repost a short series of
posts, which were originally posted to alt.astrology.tropical
a bit earlier this year.
This one here (no 3.) was actually posted under a different
title, but without it, the following ones would likely not
be understandable analytically:
The nodes and Lilith:
Lilith is the second (empty) focal point of the
ellipse of the lunar orbit. That makes Lilith an
imaginary twin of earth: A ray of light emitted
either at earth or at Lilith and then reflected
anywhere from the moons orbit, ends up at the
other of the two spots. Since the moon makes the
reflection and twins can always also be seen as
different sides of one thing, Lilith is also an
imaginary, dark side of the moon.
The lunar nodes need three things to be defined:
Sun, moon and earth. (The orbit of earth around
the sun and the orbit of the moon around earth
intersect at the axis of the nodes). Lilith, in
contrast, only needs moon and earth, so she lacks
the sun, lacks light. Hence her attribute "dark".
Application: Islam (and the USA)
In the chart for the Hegira where Mohammed fled from
Mecca to Medina in September 622, Pluto is at about
21 degrees Aries and Lilith is closely behind.
The star sign that fits best with Lilith's attributes
"earth" and "moon" is Virgo. In Greek mythology, the
virgin Persephone was abducted by Hades (Pluto). This
got her in the end a "part-time job" as Proserpina,
queen of the underworld, and wife of Hades.
In a conjunction, the planet that is ahead in the
zodiac, is the leader, while the trailing planets
have the task to support the leader. In Saudi Arabia,
where Mecca and Medina are situated, women usually
are completely veiled in black and have to walk a
few steps behind the men, like their shadows.
Many paths lead from here... Instead, let me simply
mention that the USA has Chiron at 17 Aries, which
might imply a potential to heal some of the complex
conflicts that arise (Aries) from the Lilith/Pluto
conjunction. In that sense, space aliens situated
far away from the sun, might really interpret 9/11
as a 911 call by Islam to heal some of its wounds.
The nodes and Invisibility:
Lilith is not often in charts. That is the immediate
reason why that dark object is often overlooked. More
deeply, her mercurial duality makes her unaware of her
own plans and intentions for this to remain so and
focussed more on being vexed that she never comes to
the light. In the light, Persephone is a beautiful
woman who collects flowers, but in the underworld,
she is the queen.
(Side track: The Dutch connection. The Netherlands is famous in
the world for its flowers. This post would not be, had I not seen
a recent post by Christine at aam about Lilith in connection with
recent events. She posts from a Dutch e-mail address. My arguments
last autumn at aam, around the time that Sedna had been discovered,
but not yet announced in public, culminated in a thread started by
Christine related to Lilith. Melanie Reinhart, who has written
books about the nodes and angles and about Chiron, was born in
South Africa, which was both an English and a Dutch colony. The
political system of Apartheid tried to split society into two,
a white and and a black society living together and yet separate.
In the recent movie "Monster", Charlize Theron, model and actress
from South Africa, shows a darker side of herself. In a chart for
the Netherlands for 26 July 1581, Lilith is conjunct the Uranus-
Neptune conjunction of the Hegira around 8 Virgo, while the
northern node is conjunct the USA's Pluto and presently Chiron.)
(Side track 2: My own underworld-only success is certainly also
related to the fact that I have Uranus and Pluto in Virgo, as
well as maybe to my Lilith in Pisces at a quincunx to my sun.)
Nothing is as invisible as the obvious.
I looked at the charts between USA and the Hegira many
times and looked at many connections, even at Islam's
Neptune node conjunct the USA's Pluto and now Chiron.
But what about the obvious, synthetic aspect: The USA
and Islam both have the northern node around 5 Leo!
(Europe's path out of the darkness of the Middle Ages
was spurred by Arab influence, which also lead to the
discovery of new continents. Columbus sailed under the
Spanish flag, a country that was at that time partly
inhabited by Arabs and has the northern node also in
Leo. British passports display the axis Leo-Aquarius.
So, who is entitled to some fruits of the USA ? Which
countries felt they had a duty in Iraq ?)
Screw analysis. Look at the nodes only. Revolution!
Uranus in Pisces...
One more: My parents both have Neptune in Virgo, as well
as the 3 most prominent people in the US administration
besides the president, and also Christine (I hope it is
permitted to mention that, as not to "suppress" Lilith
once more ;). They share the same illusions and dreams
that do the USA and Islam. As I mentioned before, my
parents even immigrated into the USA in the 60s. They
did not stay and, in fact, did not visit the USA again
until maybe 10 years ago or so. But the dreams remain.
Interesting link about some roots of Islam (Bob Trubshaw,
"The Black Stone - The Omphalos of the Goddess"):
http://www.geocities.com/mabcosmic/articles/bstone.html
I wrote:
: Astrology is mostly pragmatic, Virgo. And, considering also
: Ray Murphy's above list, it is related to the number nine,
: because the Tao Te Ching comes in 81 = 9 x 9 parts, which
: relate it back to the ninth planet in astrology, Neptune...
In order also to show that a kind of thinking like mine, with
Uranus conjunct Pluto in Virgo, can lead to quite deep and
mysterious places, I would like to repost a short series of
posts, which were originally posted to alt.astrology.tropical
a bit earlier this year.
Here is no.4:
Sedna's Fingers - Tao Te
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Liz Greene has Jupiter at 26 Libra* (actally in
conjunction with my Quaoar, but that is maybe not
relevant in this context), so she does make many
statements that are deep insights, but are not
fully resolved and often contain a superficial
error mixed with the deeper insight.
*http://www.astrodata.ch/astroheute/BerPer/BP92.htm
Poseidon is like Sedna, he has no grip on reality
and can only use the things that slip through the
fingers of other people or the things that others
are afraid or disgusted to touch to create some
beautiful things out of them.
Thus analysis of anything Neptunian, usually only
reveals unpleasant things to say the least. Enjoy
the sausage, but don't ask how it is made.
[two examples cut (Mengele, Penguins)].
The Tao Te Ching is in 81 parts. That is 9x9, the
number of Neptune. The selection of my usenet posts
actually contains (by luck) 52 articles, not 50:
http://www.nomad.mcmail.com/tao/docs/taote.htm
Here is a my meager attempt at some wisdom, colored
by the events during the previous few years:
: Average people compromise,
: stupid and wise people polarize;
: the wise know when to stop...
I wrote:
: Astrology is mostly pragmatic, Virgo. And, considering also
: Ray Murphy's above list, it is related to the number nine,
: because the Tao Te Ching comes in 81 = 9 x 9 parts, which
: relate it back to the ninth planet in astrology, Neptune...
In order also to show that a kind of thinking like mine, with
Uranus conjunct Pluto in Virgo, can lead to quite deep and
mysterious places, I would like to repost a short series of
posts, which were originally posted to alt.astrology.tropical
a bit earlier this year.
Here is no. 5, with the conclusion that leads back to the
symbols of Virgo and Neptune with respect to astrology:
Sedna's Fingers - Astrology
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Astrology is mainly analytical and, yet, has so
far fallen through the grid (the fingers) of the
exact sciences.
Any chart drawing gives an incomplete picture.
There would always have been additonal techniques
and/or objects that would have shed more light
onto the person or whatever the chart was for.
Some of them might have even been the best way
of looking at things in a given circumstance.
The client's "choice" of an astrologer determines
thus already quite a bit of the resulting analysis.
There are people who consider astrology "merely"
a form of divination, like the I Ching etc.
But is there really that much of a difference ?
Aren't planets and dice etc. all part of nature,
all part of the same physical laws ? Hence aren't
they maybe just different points of view at the
same matrix ? Not unlikely, although for anybody
aware of quantum mechanics, a simple yes would
probably not do...
Anyway, the Virgo/Neptune symbolism that is part
of astrology (unless this is again an illusion)
makes it quite evident why astrology has a hard
time making itself heard in the public, also for
reasons recently mentioned with regard to Lilith.
As far as the reality of astrology is concerned,
proving some parts of it would be just a matter
of genuine intention to do so and some hard work.
Technically, there is no fundamental problem to
do that, although quite some things will again
slip through the then refined fingers of science.
And, of course, the consequences for society are
something that should be a matter of concern.
(end of series)
I wrote:
: Astrology is mostly pragmatic, Virgo. And, considering also
: Ray Murphy's above list, it is related to the number nine,
: because the Tao Te Ching comes in 81 = 9 x 9 parts, which
: relate it back to the ninth planet in astrology, Neptune...
In order also to show that a kind of thinking like mine, with
Uranus conjunct Pluto in Virgo, can lead to quite deep and
mysterious places, I would like to repost a short series of
posts, which were originally posted to alt.astrology.tropical
a bit earlier this year.
Here is the second post (I forgot to say that the first one
was about Europe, while this one is about America):
Sedna's Fingers - America
This series is inspired by Liz Greene's reply to
a question in a workshop about Neptune Transits
at the 2004 Astrology World Congress asking about
the good side of Neptune -- with the reply that
what she just talked about was the good side of
Neptune! (The question was asked by a relatively
old woman; Venus and Mars were in Gemini :)
Poseidon (the Greek equivalent of Neptune) once tried
to conquer land and thrust his trident into the acropolis
at Athens, where a well of sea-water emerged.
Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 16c+d:
: Later, during the reign of Cerops, Athene came and took possession
: in a gentler manner, by planting the first olive-tree beside the well.
: [Zeus] ordered them to submit the dispute to arbitration before a
: divine court [...]. Zeus himself expressed no opinion, but while all
: the other gods supported Poseidon, all the goddesses supported Athene.
: Thus by a majority of one, the court ruled that Athene had the better
: right to the land, because she had given it the better gift.
: Greatly vexed, Poseidon sent huge waves to flood the Thriasian Plain,
: where Athene's city of Athenae stood, whereupon she took up her abode
: in Athens instead, and called that too after herself. However, to
: appease Poseidon's wrath, the women of Athens were deprived of their
: vote, and the men were forbidden to bear their mother's names as
: hitherto.
Instead of a detailed analysis, just a few hints:
In a projection of the zodiac onto Greece, with Delphi
at the center, Athens is in the section of Virgo:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
(Athena sprang from the head (mind,Mercury) of Zeus).
In the charts of both the USA and Islam (the Hegira),
Neptune (Poseidon) is in Virgo...
Both appear not very successful in making permanent
conquests of land, and yet achieve some changes...
The waves of the ocean form the shape of the land by
repeatedly, periodically flooding the beach and then
retreating again...
Athens is the city with the world's first democracy...
Note also Zeus' witty architecture of the court ruling
that spared him to express his mind (Athene) directly.
In the subsequent posts I would like to exclusively and
very exceptionally quote an entire section from my
document http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Namely, I will reproduce the section about the "Age of
Aquarius", in light of the recent posts concerning this
subject here at alt.astrology.moderated.
As it should become clear shortly, Christine's suspicions
about the Aquarian shadow (3rd Reich, Communism, etc.) were
quite to the point, although that is, of course, only one
side of the medal.
Please be aware that I will speak also of great traumas
and tragedies that happened in the 20th century, including
the holocaust. So, please, if you are emotionally still
close to these events, consider skipping some things,
if you feel so. Please read at least the post titled
"The Age of Aquarius - Astrological Ages" before prodeeding
any further...
Thanks in advance!
The following text has been written on a single day in
November 2001 (after many previous attempts and quite a
bit of researching the facts).
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote from the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: 3.10 Astrological Ages
:
: H31 Astrological ages are influenced by their assigned star sign (a) and also,
: but less strongly, by the opposite sign in the zodiac (b).
:
: The earth's axis precesses with a period of about 26'000 years. Consequently,
: the star sign that carries the sun at the beginning of spring changes every
: about 2150 years. In analogy to months in a year, these astrological ages are
: believed to be influenced by their respective star sign. H31b is probably both
: belief and a natural counterreaction.
:
: The age of Aries was roughly from 2000 BC to 0, the age of Pisces followed
: afterwards and is very roughly now in the process of being succeeded by the age
: of Aquarius.
:
: In history, one needs to know a lot of facts in order to correctly distinguish
: between wish and provable reality. Hence the following will (hopefully) be
: based on relatively conservative and widely accepted facts; more speculative
: projections into the past have been avoided here, although, for a historian,
: these would probably be the most interesting topics. But the purpose here was
: to test the model on reality, and also to reveal some mechanisms behind
: collective wounds like the holocaust.
:
: If you are emotionally still close to some of the events related to world war
: two, you may want to skip the second part of the subsection about the age of
: Aquarius, but note that its effect can also be healing.
:
: Note also that the discoveries presented here have yet to be quantitatively
: verified and, although I think that at the very least H14b together with the
: four basic pictures for the elements (fire, cloud, river, tree) in conjunction
: with H19 is true, some associative "conclusions" that I have made may turn out
: to be biased or even false. Hence, please consider this before you judge things
: too quickly; it might be worth to let experts from different sides some time to
: offer their insights too.
Note the suggested importantance of the axis compared to the sign.
It is unlikely that people will behave so extremely biased as one
single sign is during more than 2000 years. Counterreactions into
the opposite direction are bound to occur.
So, for the Age of Aquarius, I will look at Aquarius *and* Leo.
Please take note of the warning concerning the Holocaust.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote of the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: There are many different opinions about when exactly the age of Aquarius has
: started or will start, but nobody knows for sure. First clear signs have
: appeared since the 18th century, starting with the movement of enlightenment,
: the french and american revolutions and the discovery of Uranus.
:
: The movement of enlightenment was called "Aufklrung" in german, which means to
: clear up. The light of the sun makes things clear and obvious, i.e. it makes
: conscious. This is the common ground of Aquarius and Leo: Both put their hopes
: into individuals, believing that more conscious knowledge will allow them to
: better plan their common and individual destinies.
:
: The american and french revolutions of 1776 resp. 1789 realized ideas of the
: movement of enlightenment. They created new political systems based on
: individual freedom, democracy and equality before law. The influence of Virgo
: is also still clearly visible in these themes, and especially in the concept of
: separation of powers into legislature, executive and jurisdiction.
Note that, of course, all these sentences adhere very closely
to my model of the zodiac in terms of archetypes for the four
elements.
The style, although very clear and direct, leaves many paths
open to be explored. In that sense, it has also something
mythical, even mystical.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote from the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: In 1781, Uranus was discovered, the closest planet to the sun that is not
: visible to the naked eye. The required detailed observations of the sky can be
: attributed to Virgo, but the invention and improvement of the telescope fits
: better with Aquarius-Leo, as follows.
:
: Early telescopes magnified the light from the sky using lenses. Lenses are
: transparent and can be used to focus sunlight. Similarly, the two fixed male
: signs, Aquarius and Leo, like to focus onto a single issue, Leo also because
: this resembles the focus of a lion on its prey. They have complementary goals.
: Whereas Leo tries to reach a holy grail, something that appears to be real, but
: in the end is in the world of ideas, Aquarius tries to realize an ideal, a
: vision about how some things in the world should be. Both create progress,
: although Leo sometimes rather inadvertently when his creations are adopted and
: thus become normal.
:
: Uranus had been spotted several times before its conscious discovery in 1781,
: but, at least consciously, been mistaken for a fixed star. Hence, it might be
: worth to investigate more closely since when astrological influence of Uranus
: is provable (H8c). Neptune was discovered in 1846, after its position had been
: predicted from small deviations in the orbits of known planets. Pluto was
: discovered in 1930, after a systematic search of the sky. The details of the
: discoveries of these planets are very complex, including how and when they got
: their names.
Interesting also that Neptune had been spotted for the first time
by Galilei shortly after the telescope had been invented, and thus
very likely *before* Uranus.
See also some of my previous usenet posts.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote from the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: Since the 19th century, things have continuously progressed. Industrialization
: has allowed to bring new inventions quickly and equally to many people. Women
: have obtained more equal rights and duties compared to men, different races and
: sexual orientations are more equally treated by law. Public schools give many
: people detailed conscious knowledge of the world.
:
: The idea of a special world for children, with its own books and toys, can be
: related to Leo. In summer, people reconnect to their families and to nature,
: i.e. to the ground (earth) they came from. Thus Leo is ultimately trying to
: reconnect heaven and sky that had been separated when the world was created.
: Leo gets along well with children, old people and animals, i.e. with everybody
: with lesser abilities than adults.
Liz Greene mentions in the "Astrology of Fate" (Samuel Weiser, 1984) that
she associates Leo with Religion, which means literally "to reconnect",
or something very similar, hence my above statement.
I meant to write "reconnect heaven and earth", of course. This is one of
the very few direct errors in the text, although it might probably also
be, at the same time, a door to new secrets...
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote from the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: Progress also shows in astrology itself. In the 20th century, a new method for
: doing relationship astrology was invented. Composite charts melt two birth
: charts into a single one, typically by taking the midpoint of respective
: planets (e.g. suns in Aries and Gemini typically give a composite sun in
: Taurus). Of course, the natural way to combine the fates of two things is still
: by the moment they met, which is the very idea behind astrology. Synastry
: emphasizes the relativity of people and relations, hence it might be
: interesting to find out when exactly it became popular.
:
: Because the three new planets are invisible, they are considered collective
: planets; i.e. they not only apply to individual fate but also to collective
: fate. In that sense, Pluto is believed to be what is missing in the world at
: the time of birth. Now, between 1914 and 1938, Pluto was in Cancer which
: suggests some relation to global events at that time in which protection was
: apparently lacking. In 1977, a small piece of matter was discovered that orbits
: between the orbits of Saturn and Uranus and thus connects collective and
: individual planets. Since scientists were also not sure whether it is a comet
: or an asteroid, they chose the name Chiron (the centaur mentioned in the
: description of Sagittarius). Psychologically, Chiron is intended to provide a
: balance to Pluto, to heal rather than to penetrate boundaries and to heal the
: wounds of the holocaust.
Note that what is new in my description is maybe less the exact contents
(a lot has probably been said by other intelligent people before me), but
the fact that it all closely adheres to a very simple model of the zodiac
in terms of the four elements and their transitions, inspired by Aristotle,
plus a few elementary rules, like the one of assocation.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote of the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: This leads to some deeper and darker sides of the new age. During the 20th
: century, different political systems related to the new age have been painfully
: tried out. Communism and fascism put the collective clearly above the
: individual. This lead to police states that tried to make every citizen's life
: totally transparent and to mass propaganda with omnipresent pictures of only a
: few individuals and symbols. People that did not fit in were focussed in
: concentration camps or gulags and either killed or let to die there. Early
: capitalism represents the other extreme. It made just a few people very rich
: and many people very poor.
:
: All three political systems missed the ideal of the new age, namely to give
: everybody a high common (and guaranteed) standard of life without removing the
: individual opportunity to achieve and keep something in life. Today's political
: systems are closer to this ideal, but also need to be actively kept in balance.
In Russia there was (and still is) a city with only blind people,
with people who cannot see (sun, fire, thus Leo). I prefer the
more contemporary approaches to that, namely to give people the
opportunity (opportunity, not obligation) to be able to see a
little bit with artificial sensors connected to their brains.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote from the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: Jews are still strongly influenced by the age of Aries; this has linked their
: fates strongly to the new age. After the revolutions at the end of the 18th
: century, jews have gradually been integrated more into society, have been
: allowed to go to universities and to participate in political life. Naturally,
: they have started to contribute to society and also to do what Aries always
: does after the end of winter, namely to realize the things that Pisces had
: dreamed up during winter. Freud (and Jung) discovered the unconscious, Einstein
: the theory of relativity. Even Marx (and Engels) had perfectly noble motives
: when they invented communism.
:
: But Aquarius is not Aries, he likes progress but he also hates disorder. In
: that sense, collective unconscious counterreactions, also of jealousy, within
: the people living at that time have probably helped fascism to get to power to
: some degree.
I have almost literally been sweating blood to write down this and
the following passages in autumn 2001. Therefore I feel unable to add
anything here. I did my best to get these few sentences right both in
the sense of making no errors concerning objective reality, nor in the
sense of grasping the main psychological issues in their essence.
Maybe next time, Saturn and Pluto form a major aspect, will it become
possible to mould things a little bit.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote from the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: Freud discovered that even small and unconscious feelings of guilt can lead to
: psychological problems. For example, somebody who cared for and nurtured a
: close older person for a long time, will, of course, mainly be sad when that
: person dies, but subliminally also be relieved. Subliminally, there may have
: been more archaic feelings (typically in the percent range) that were wishing
: for the person to die so that oneself regains freedom again. Clearly, this can
: lead to feelings of guilt.
:
: Similarly, although very clearly the guilt for killing millions of people lies
: primarily within the people who killed millions of people, and not with the
: ones killed, some feelings of guilt may prevail because maybe jews were a bit
: too carelessly eager to change things. On the other hand, Aries is almost by
: definition Hybris and no single person is fully able to judge what was actually
: Hybris and what was not, and yet every single person has to consider his or her
: actions in order to reduce the chance for something like the holocaust to
: happen again. It must also be noted that jews were only trying to realize
: things that had been collectively dreamed up previously, maybe already since
: Leonardo da Vinci.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote from the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: According to an anecdote, the swastica symbol of the nazis was designed by a
: certain Dr. Kron and presented to Hitler who decided to change the direction in
: which it rotates. Superficially, this shows the dilemma of the dictator who is
: supposed to be superior in everything, but in reality is not, and hence chose
: the only possible change to the design that would not mess it up. But
: symbolically, the meaning goes considerably deeper.
:
: The cross is an ancient symbol for the tree and hence for the element earth.
: The swastica variant seems to have appeared quite independently world-wide in
: different cultures, which is understandable as one of its origins is the
: apparent motion of stars around the north pole in the sky, which looks as
: follows today:
:
: [Figure: Little Bear]
:
: Around 3000 BC, not long after the invention of the pottery wheel and the
: chariot by the sumerians, the polar star was Thuban in the constellation of
: Draco and it was circled by the two stellar chariots Ursa Major and Minor.
: Hence the swastica symbolizes time and progress, also related to the invention
: of the wheel. Since rotation can produce fire by friction, it is also seen as a
: sun wheel, similar to the sun ball that Atum was pushing across the sky in
: ancient egyptian mythology.
:
: Now, the name "Kron" derives from Kronos/Saturn who also gave the chronometer
: its name, i.e. the fact that Hitler reversed direction shows both the
: reactionary nature of fascism that wanted to turn back time and the
: artificiality of Aquarius compared to Capricorn who also forces to decide, but
: leaves nature free choice in which way to decide. Similarly, the vision of the
: Übermensch with blue eyes (Aquarius) and blond hair (Leo) fits the new age, but
: the name "Arier" is also related to Aries, i.e. in several senses the nazis
: simultaneously tried to destroy what they wanted to restore and vice-versa,
: using the very means of the new age.
:
: Relations between perpetrator and victim are never completely black and white.
: There exist always weaker and subliminal (but juridically rightfully not
: relevant) drives in the perpetrator to heal and in the victim to suffer. To
: some degree, jews were maybe willing to suffer just in order to be part of
: society. There appear to have been several astrological influences that have
: further increased this, like this basic one: Germany goes back to the
: coronation of Charles the Great to emperor of the roman empire (later of german
: nation) at christmas in the year 800 by the pope in Rome. Later founding dates
: have reiterated a relation of Germany to Saturn, the planet that gave its name
: to Saturday, the day when the fire of Aries is not allowed to burn.
The name of the doctor was actually "Krohn", but for some reason
that I was not able to grasp precisely, I felt that it would hurt
people a lot more to write the name correctly. I have no idea why.
Note that the name is also related to "crown" (German "Krone"),
thus also to kings and Leo.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote of the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: Both Leo and Aquarius are emotionally quite distant to actual people, they
: mainly see themselves as individuals and others more in general terms.
: Accordingly, their focus on founding Israel, although in global terms probably
: a good idea, also lacked compassion with the other people, Palestinians, who
: had been living there for quite some time; this has to be considered too.
:
: Aquarius has a tendency to neglect quality for equality, to go too quickly for
: a simple solution that in the end does not really satisfy anybody. Cloning is
: probably such an example, or newly emerging cults that force people by mental
: terror to make everything conscious, or people who think that they can live
: from light alone and will never have to die if they do not want to, like an old
: man. The new age has lots of good sides, but it is everybody's responsibility
: not to let its darker, limited side win too much.
Concerning the Middle East, I can also recommend the section about The Age
of Pisces. This kind of analytical insight into global problems could be
helpful to solve them, if so desired by both sides.
Note that the whole section tends to show Aquarius rather from
a "bad" side (and also Leo, although a bit less so). This is
merely intended as a warning, because the good sides need no
warning, it is the shadow that one should be aware of.
The following quoted text is
Copyright (C) 2001 by AlainStalder. All Rights Reserved.
It is a verbatim quote of the following document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Hereby I grant other people the right to cite the following
passages, but only in this usenet thread, in this group, and
within a month's time. (Note that citing shorter passages is
usually OK with the laws of most countries, as long as full
credit is given to the author).
: Finally, one has to be careful not to confound the weather with the climate. As
: I am writing this, there are two collective planets, Uranus and Neptune, in
: Aquarius and the generation with Pluto in Leo is in power. Thus, political
: correctness, for example, is probably not solely related to the age of
: Aquarius.
A good friend of mine (outside usenet) recently remarked that
I have trouble to get things out. Also, when I was younger,
a woman (actually a young girl at a school party), to me from
the lines in my hand that I am a very creative guy (my moon
is in Aries, Venus/Mars/Jupiter in Cancer, sun in Leo), but
that I also have trouble to pull things through in the sense
of convincing others of them.
In a usenet post by somebody who, I think, also used to post
here, "Tante Lina", she said that in order to convince people
of something good and important that you have found out, you
have to "shove it down people's throats".
These posts this autumn are about as far a I will ever go.
With Jupiter in Libra (and striving towards Aquarius, which
I associate mostly with Tante Lina' statement) that is about
as far as it gets.
Voila!
A new world has been offered to you all.
On a platter. Take what you want, or let it be.
In greek mythology, once a guy stole something from
Zeus, or something similar. What did Zeus do ? Well,
the most obvious thing: He invited the guy to dinner.
Well, the guy tried to steal some things from Zeus
at that dinner. Zeus noticed, of course, and was not
very nice any more.
This is how you get from Jupiter to Saturn.
In the future, anybody who wants anything from me in
public, will have to show that he or she showed some
effort that deserves a reply.
To be fair, I will post three times a year (also to
please the three fates), announcing abstract, table
of contents, and my selection of usenet posts.
Bye and good luck to all, in any imaginable way!
Raymond Andrews wrote:
: I just found out that plutino, 2004 DW is now named Orcus. Orcus is
: the Roman God of Death.
"The planet that can be named is not the real planet" -- 2004 DW
)o+
Sharyn@vfemail.net (Sharyn) wrote:
: raveness@aol.comnospam (Victoria) wrote in message news:<20041128143249.08238.00001324@mb-m04.aol.com>...
: > I'm amazed that some folks dont see the power of Pluto transits...when Pluto
: > was conjunct my asc. in 1980 I totally revamped my face to the world by getting
: > married, pregnant and having my son. I also recall my intense abandonment
: > issues coming up. When Pluto was opposing my 8th house moon my then 16 year old
: > son was taken from my custody for his drug problems and put into rehab. My
: > business partner also died (female). When Pluto was conjunct my Sun at 16 sag I
: > found out my sister was really my mother, my "mother" really my grandmother,
: > then they both died, I inherited money (8th house moon)
: > changed my whole life, lived alone and faced my demons. 2 long term
: > relationships ended. It was an underworld descent. Now, with tUranus conj. Mars
: > in the 5th my life is being reborn, so I have to think that there is some order
: > to the transits in terms of personal evolution and growth.
: > Just my two cents.
: >
: >
: > Victoria
: > from beautiful El Granada
:
: I know. When Pluto crossed my ascendant, I was in a car accident that
: changed my life, my face and my body forever. The physical and
: emotional pain was intense, and I still suffer from it at times. And
: there was much more to it than that, regarding identity issues, etc.
: We've all heard so many Pluto transit stories, it's hard to believe
: that ANYONE would not recognize the power of Pluto.
Hi Sharyn, and welcome back!
I am, too, aware of Pluto's impact. When it was announced about a week
ago that the slightly smaller "2004 DW" was again given one of the many
names of Hades (as ordained by official rules), namely Orcus, I first
thought "Great, another Pluto! Just like the world would need that!".
But, then I thought to myself that maybe the choice was wiser than it
might appear at first sight: I assume that the total force of planets
on our fates cannot simply increase when other planets/objects are
discovered. Whatever the new ones get, must somehow be removed from
the older ones.
So, by effectively splitting Pluto into two (or more) parts, maybe in
the future, Pluto transits will be less strongly felt (although there
will also be Orcus transits, but these also will be less strong than
previously Pluto transits).
Until recently, I had assumed that "Pluto" was simply the equivalent
in Roman culture of "Hades", just as "Jupiter" is of "Zeus" and also
similarly for all the other planets. But, as it appears, the word
"Pluto" is already (also) one of the Greek names of Hades. Hades means
literally "sightless" (according to Robert Graves in "The Greek Myths"),
while "Pluto" means "wealth", referring also to the literal riches,
like gold or silver, that can be found by digging, and also directly
to what beautiful things nature grows every year out of the earth.
If Hades is to be split into parts, then maybe Pluto will loose some
of its destructive side, and retain rather its constructive, wealthy
side...
Please allow me two rather administrative questions:
On my web site, at
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
I have essentially reproduced a post in which I replied to you in
June 2003. I am citing you with your name and your words. Please tell
me (now or anytime in the future) if you would rather not be cited
by name or have me rephrase your questions in my words.
Second question: At the following link (grown out of a series of
posts to aat in winter and spring 2004) I have a few links to other
sites, including one to www.aat-home.net:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
I will simply keep the link to aat-home.net up, for the time being,
even though the site currently doesn't exist. (By the way, Alois
Treindl was so kind to include a link from Astrodienst to the above
link, both to the English and to the German version of it).
Hermes (aka AlainStalder, delphi29@excite.com, alain@wei.chi)
(If you want to reply by mail, simply go to www.exactphilosophy.net
and use the e-mail address at the bottom of the page.)
I wrote:
: Please allow me two rather administrative questions:
:
: On my web site, at
:
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
:
: I have essentially reproduced a post in which I replied to you in
: June 2003. I am citing you with your name and your words. Please tell
: me (now or anytime in the future) if you would rather not be cited
: by name or have me rephrase your questions in my words.
Sorry, wrong link. Here it the one that I meant:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s142.html
)o+
Hi everybody,
I plan to promote my model of the zodiac in terms of archetypes
for the elements that I discovered early in 2001 (see links at
the bottom for references about what exactly that model is).
I plan to send a short document (20 pages or so) to astrologers
world-wide that exposes the model and relates it to previous
work about the signs of the zodiac. In order to be convincing,
I would like to show in the document that my model reproduces
the main properties of the 12 signs of the zodiac and can be
used for deeper analysis, too.
For that I need to know how astrologers tick. I need to know
which properties I should explain in terms of my model and,
probably most importantly, who I should cite.
So here is my question:
Can anybody recommend books about the zodiac by widely respected
authors? The idea is that most astrologers to whom I would send
out my document would attribute strong credibility to quotes by
that author and also judge the cited author to be a mainstream
authority in astrology.
Since I am not a professional astrologers and only really entered
astrology in 1998, my knowledge is narrow. Besides the internet,
my knowledge of the zodiac is largely based on about two books by
Liz Greene, namely "Astrology for Lovers" and "The Astrology of
Fate". Is it safe to assume, as I think, that quotes from these
two books would fit the above category?
If not: To whom not? In which countries not? Not in which respect,
regarding which topics?
Any help is greatly appreciated and will be acknowledged (unless
desired otherwise, of course!).
(If you would like to reply by e-mail instead of a post in public,
please visit my site http://www.exactphilosophy.net and use the
e-mail address indicated at the bottom of the main page. Thanks!)
alain
--
Here is some additional information about how I want to make that
document look like (suggestions again greatly appreciated):
- Real paper copy sent by mail, not electronic by e-mail
- Landscape format, spiral bound
- Language: English (maybe also a German version?)
- Page 1, left: letter (with small photo and chart)
- Page 2, right: title "Elementary Astrology" with a color
illustration of a circle of the elements (Fire left, Air up,
Water right, Earth down) and the signs by their archetypes
(fire with wood and smoke, cloud with lightning and rain,
river from source to sea, tree with flowers and roots)
- Page 2: exposition of the main model, referencing Aristotle's
view of the elements (Fire is hot+dry, Air is wet+hot, Water is
cold+wet, Earth is dry+cold), with citations from his book "De
Generatione and Corruptione" ("On Generation and Corruption")
- Page 3-6: further exposition of the model, one page per element,
with color illustrations and various quotes
- Page 7-18: further exposition of the model, one page per sign in
the zodiac, with color illustrations and quotes
- Page 19: references, acknowledgements, a bit more details
about me (short CV, larger chart)
--
Here are some constraints on recpients that I currently consider:
- Regions: Mainly USA/Canada, Europe and Australia
- Individual astrologers and organisations (including schools
and universities that teach astrology, respected magazines)
- Established and young astrologers
- ca. 100 recipients
--
Here is some reference material (as promised above):
Primary exposition of the model, but probably not very well
accessible, because very densely written (see mainly sections
2.2 to 2.6 and 3.9):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Two, maybe easier to grasp, expositions of the same model,
which were originally posted to a.a.mod resp. to a.a.t:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s142.html
(latter post is only partially about the model)
Aristotle's "De Generatione et Corruptione" (see mainly
Book II, chapters 2 and 3):
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/AriGeco.html
Esa wrote:
: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:30:07 CST, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: > But, then I thought to myself that maybe the choice was wiser than it
: > might appear at first sight: I assume that the total force of planets
: > on our fates cannot simply increase when other planets/objects are
: > discovered. Whatever the new ones get, must somehow be removed from
: > the older ones.
: >
: > So, by effectively splitting Pluto into two (or more) parts, maybe in
: > the future, Pluto transits will be less strongly felt (although there
: > will also be Orcus transits, but these also will be less strong than
: > previously Pluto transits).
:
: IMHO, wouldn't that more likely be that they were previously only falsely
: labeled as Pluto's effects, because the effects can't really depend on
: what astronomers know and what astrologers have invented, right?
This assumption is a priori only one of at least 4 possibilities.
See these two posts that I posted here in March of this year:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s363.html
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s362.html
: Couldn't we otherwise just decide that Pluto only has the constructive
: side and be happy with that?-)
In my opinion, it is most likely that *collective* *and* *unconscious*
beliefs have a significant influence on the effect of planets (although
I don't think that this is the only influence and I also don't think
that things are strictly bound by the flow of time). While conscious
individual beliefs can change quickly, unconsciously and collectively,
things take a lot longer. So, yes, I think Pluto's influence can change
to a significant degree with time, but not quickly.
)o+
Lisa Eclipse Astrology wrote:
: I had my natal Pluto square transiting Pluto, which I have always heard
: yucky stuff about from almost everyone, and mine was not anywhere nearly
: as bad as my Saturn Return! I will disclose, though, that I have a
: better-aspected Pluto, and that transiting Pluto was at the same time
: trining my Moon! I felt a "power surge" and felt much more comfortable
: exercising that, and that was very good for me!
:
: The transits that kicked my butt all over the place seem to have Neptune
: themes, that is until this one. This past year, when transiting Neptune
: was conjunct my Venus (and I have natal Neptune squaring my natal Venus,
: so I was not sure how this was going to work at all!), I was pleasantly
: surprised. I married a Pisces and he is fantastic! :-) Lisa Allen
I suspect that the diversity in which the individual reacts
to transits, progressions, synastries in relations, and to
everything else in life, is often underestimated.
People are not deterministic machines. It is very difficult
to find a single theory that would describe what different
people do, precisely because people are so different, also
due to their birth chart and their environment.
Any good theory would at least have to give specific rules
for how to apply astrology to any kind of individual. And it
is likely that in terms of useful results (i.e. not only in
terms of scientific proof), a skilled astrologer will remain
on the advantage compared to purely scientific methods, even
after they start to become available, for quite some years
to come...
This idea was inspired by a "spam mail" by Astrodienst that
I received by (snail) mail about two weeks ago. It contained
a brief article by Liz Greene that started with a statement
that read roughly:
"Astrology is neither a science nor a religion; it is an art."
Of course, one might be tempted to relativate that statement,
in many, many ways, but that would disregard the experience
and overview that it contains.
Art is about special things, about handling the four elements
creatively and in a skilled way, while, at the same time, also
letting the elements, the forces on you, handle you.
I look at it a bit like surfing.
(Where you can go and what you can do, depends quite a bit on
your skills to move the board, but also on the experience and
talent to read the motion of the waves.)
)o+
Sharyn wrote:
: > I am, too, aware of Pluto's impact. When it was announced about a week
: > ago that the slightly smaller "2004 DW" was again given one of the many
: > names of Hades (as ordained by official rules), namely Orcus, I first
: > thought "Great, another Pluto! Just like the world would need that!".
: >
: > But, then I thought to myself that maybe the choice was wiser than it
: > might appear at first sight: I assume that the total force of planets
: > on our fates cannot simply increase when other planets/objects are
: > discovered. Whatever the new ones get, must somehow be removed from
: > the older ones.
:
: Well, see, I'm not sure I agree with the planets as "forces" exactly.
: I think they are more like timers and describers.
Astro*n*omy has, for a long time, been merely describing ("describers")
when ("timers") which planets are where. That was so during Antiquity
and the Middle Ages when epicycles where used to describe and predict
planetary positions. And even with Kepler and Copernicus, things did
not change in that respect.
The fundamental change came with Newton.
Newton went beyond describing where planets are when, but explained
why. He set up equations of motion, where, from given positions and
velocities, the gravitational force between objects allows to obtain
acceleration (force divided by mass) and thus to integrate future
positions and velocities of planets.
You may remember some of my "Reflections" posts to aat where I used
an index into my "discoveries.pdf" document for divination. Usually
I used coins to determine that index, but occasionally also other
numbers. A few days ago, I used Orcus' number, 90482, and it pointed
to the following sentence (section about the Age of Aquarius):
: The new age has lots of good sides, but it is everybody's responsibility
: not to let its darker, limited side win too much.
This reminds me very much of Immanuel Kant's famous starting sentence
in "Was ist Aufklaerung?" ("What is Enlightenment?") that he published
5 December 1783 in Berlinische Monatszeitschrift:
: AUFKLAERUNG ist der Ausgang des Menschen aus seiner selbst
: verschuldeten Unmuendigkeit.
: Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity.
("selbst verschuldet": by one's own fault, "Unmuendigkeit" is
related to "Mund" ("mouth"), literally "inability to use one's
own mouth", in the sense also of not being able to take part
in deciding worldly affairs, "Ausgang": "exit")
In "The Astrology of Fate", Liz Greene gives an example of an
astrological prediction that worked in the Renaissance, the
death of King Henri II of France during a tournament, predicted
by at least two astrologers.
In (or near) the Age of Aquarius, things are a bit different.
Aquarius, the male side of Saturn, is known to be able to bend
things logically until they point into the direction he wants.
Bernadette Brady's attempt to predict the moment of death of
the current pope failed, very likely not because of technical
errors in applying traditional methods, but because in modern
times, the rules can be bent, although very likely rarely
completely broken.
Dubya did not experience anything horrible when Mars transited
his IC, he got elected two times with that constellation. He
also apparently managed to escape completely the curse that has
been attached to US presidents every 20 years (although Reagan,
did already take a significant part out of the curse).
I relate that also to the fact that recently two relatively
major objects in space have been named after native American
gods, namely Quaoar (near moon in Sibley chart) and Sedna.
Anyway, at least I prefer to live in a world where what I feel
and want and think can have some impact on my life and also a
tiny little bit on society, than to be simply a victimized
observer of what happens to me.
Of course, Pedantus' quote that every generation has its own
filters on reality, is likely true in the end and also applies
to astrlogical ages: Each age has its own set of filters.
But, then again, one can also consider a filter rather as an
opportunity than a cage, to some degree...
)o+
Esa wrote:
: I think I hadn't ever read anything on aam/aat at that point, so this was
: new to me. Interesting stuff, like your writings tend to be :)
Thanks! :)
: I agree 100% if considering only people who are aware of the astrological
: symbolism, but have trouble understanding how lay people could be
: influenced. [...]
Archetypes of the unconscious are quite universal, independently of what
people consciously believe.
For more details on my best guess how/why astrology works, see, of course,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
The quintessence there is that the direct reason for why astrology works
is mainly collective, unconscious human beliefs. Direct indications of
that are, for example, precession and equally spaced signs.
More indirectly, I suspect that the connections between the cycles in the
universe and on earth are more universal than that (see, for example, what
I write around the beginning of section 4 or what I wrote in various posts
to usenet that you can also find at my site).
Hermes
DJ wrote:
: Yeah, I'd say so; Liz Green isn't really my cup of tea
: (I find all that fate stuff kind of a snooze) but her
: knowledge of astrology is good. One of the problems
: with astrology books is that the really interesting
: writers aren't often truly accomplished astrologers,
: and vice versa. Books by Marc Edmund Jones are
: positively soporific, but he seems to know his stuff.
: Linda Goodman wrote very well, but her technical
: knowledge was rather thin. My own favorite has always
: been Llewellyn George, but he died ages ago. William
: Lilly has been moldering even longer, and is still
: being quoted as if he wrote for the morning paper.
: It's the same problem Mark Twain commented on--these
: famous authors, they all seem to be dead!
Sharyn wrote (in reply to DJ):
: Some good ones are still around: Bernadette Brady, Steven Forrest,
: Donna Cunningham, Robert Hand, and Anthony Louis are all good,
: interesting writers as well as technically competent and recognized as
: "authorities" on astrology. They are all still living, too.
Thanks for the replies!
I have been at amazon.com (as well as their german and french sites)
and looked at the content of the books by these and more authors, at
how many books they have written, and to which languages they have
been translated.
Here is a very preliminary list of who I might cite:
- Liz Greene
The Astrology of Fate, Astrology for Lovers, New Insights in
Modern Astrology (section about the mythological path)
Cite not too often, mainly for deeper stuff, maybe near the
end of each section about a sign
- Robert Hand
Horoscope Symbols
Feels safe to cite
- Linda Goodman
Linda Goodman's Sun Signs
I find what she writes simple, direct and accurate
- William Lilly
Christian Astrology, Book 1
Cite not too often because his work might be considered to
be a bit outdated by some astrologers
- Carl Gustav Jung
????
For special occasions only
- Nicholas Campion
The Ultimate Astrologer (contains ca. 20 pages about signs)
These are not excluded, yet:
- Marc Edmund Jones (How to learn Astrology ???)
- Llewellyn George (A-Z Horoscope Maker and Interpreter, contains
about 22 pages about the signs)
- Charles and Suzi Harvey (Sun Sign, Moon Sign)
- Stephen Arroyo (Chart Interpretation Handbook, little about signs)
- Darby Costello (Astrology, DK Pocket, illustrated)
These appear not have published much about the signs in books:
- Bernadette Brady, Steven Forrest ("Zodiac by Degrees" is about
signs, but split up per degree, thus likely not suitable),
Donna Cunningham, Anthony Louis, Howard Sasportas, Lynn Bell,
Clare Marin, Dermod Moore, Melanie Reinhart, Reinhold Ebertin,
Erin Sullivan, Karen Hamaker-Zontag
Any corrections and suggestions (also of additional autors) are
still welcome!
I am still looking for European authors (except British) who have
had their books translated to English and have been recognized
outside of Europe.
alain
I wrote:
> I plan to send a short document (20 pages or so) to astrologers
> world-wide that exposes the model and relates it to previous
> work about the signs of the zodiac. In order to be convincing,
> I would like to show in the document that my model reproduces
> the main properties of the 12 signs of the zodiac and can be
> used for deeper analysis, too.
Don't worry, I dropped the plan.
(A previously posted reply is yet to appear at aat.)
Ed Falis wrote:
: I'm willing to recommend both Horoscope Symbols and Astrology of
: Personality as serious books. Both deviate a bit from conventional
: ("mainstream") practice, but IMO the deviations are in the positive
: direction of reframing fundamentals.
Thanks a lot!
I wrote:
: I wrote:
: > I plan to send a short document (20 pages or so) to astrologers
: > world-wide that exposes the model and relates it to previous
: > work about the signs of the zodiac. In order to be convincing,
: > I would like to show in the document that my model reproduces
: > the main properties of the 12 signs of the zodiac and can be
: > used for deeper analysis, too.
:
: Don't worry, I dropped the plan.
:
: (A previously posted reply is yet to appear at aat.)
That post is still to appear as I am writing this (Mercury is retrograde).
It contains a list of astrologers/books that I looked at yesterday.
I noticed that in the morning, I am usually more courageous than
in the evening*. Since I have the moon in Aries at my MC, mood
changes are quick. I am usually trying to average my feelings
over at least a few days, but that does not always work.
So, I still in for it (written in the morning of 30 Nov).
* In http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ I associate AC and morning
with the number 1 and Fire, MC and afternoon with 2 and Air, DC and
evening with 3 and Water, IC and night with 4 and Earth. Thomas Mann,
for example, used to write only in the morning and invite people to
his place for a chat in the afternoon...
Note that this post will likely appear after a few others by me,
since what I post to aam as Hermes is automatically approved.
Thanks for the replies, so far!
Larry Swain wrote:
: Getting more specific about titles than just the authors already cited
: by DJ, Sharyn, and myself, I think Robert Hand's *Horoscope Symbols*
: is superb!
:
: I agree with DJ that Liz Greene is very good, but she tends toward
: Jungian psychological interpretations. [...]
That coincides precisely with my general impression that I have from
various usenet comments: I have never heard anybody saying something
negative about Robert Hand's work, but Liz Greene seems to be liked
a lot by some people, while quite a few others have at least quite
ambivalent feelings about her work, or at least some aspects of it.
: Dane Rudhyar's *Astrology Of
: Personality* is a modern classic but he's long-winded, is often hard
: to grasp, and leans heavily towards the esoteric. William Lilly is
: indeed a recognized authority, but his intent is often misinterpreted
: due to his archaic literary style and his approach is decidedly
: traditional Renaissance. Most of the others mentioned -- particularly
: Llewelyn George, Marc Edmund Jones and Stephen Forrest, IMO -- are
: very good to excellent also, but one way or another omit some
: perspectives on astrological symbolism or at least lean more heavily
: on some than others. Nevertheless worth quoting for your purposes, I
: would think, at least where they don't depart too much from mainstream
: astrology.
Thanks a lot!
: But IMO Robert hand's *Horoscope Symbols* covers all of the archetypal
: bases comprehensively if not in minute detail, is well written in an
: easy to understand, logically organized style, is technically correct,
: and isn't biased toward any particular school of astrological thought
: (written well before he became absorbed in Traditional and Ancient
: perspectives) but rather was written with the intent of providing the
: most well-rounded presentation of astrological symbolism possible. In
: this volume his approach is very thorough and well-balanced and I know
: of no other astrological writer more universally recognized as a
: "mainstream authority in astrology", at least until his departure from
: that position to pursue Traditional and Ancient studies in the
: mid-90's. And while Hand isn't my personal favorite, for the above
: reasons his *Horoscope Symbols* IS the first book I recommend to
: beginners -- and that despite the fact that Forrest's book *The Inner
: Sky* is probably more universally recognized as a beginner's book
: (it's the second I usually recommend).
:
: And Alain, could you expand upon what you mean by "which properties I
: should explain in terms of my model"? I'm not certain of which
: properties you're speaking of.
Take Gemini, for example.
In my model, Gemini (the first Air sign), is the first stage in a
transition from Fire via Air to Water. The archetypal image for all
three Air signs is a cloud. The youngest sign, Gemini, has lots of
Fire (lightning) and little Water (rain), Libra balances the two and
Aquarius is mainly rain (Water). That's the model.
Specifically, for Gemini, I would derive, for example, things like
that:
Quickness and randomness:
Lightning and also a flame in a fire are quick and random. As far as
I know, quickness is quite universally associated with Gemini, and
(at least apparent) randomness is probably associated often.
Sees only one aspect of a thing / an issue at a time:
The light of lightning or a flame only shines at one side of a thing,
the next second it sees the next thing.
Playing and learning:
Children learn many things like that quick flame, by playing. Little
children turn things around in their hands, take a bite, throw them
down to the ground, etc. It is a process of unification. A coin, for
example, is a priori, if you have never seen one, just a series of
pictures from various sides, once you see one side of it, then the
other side, and all angles in between. I requires work to integrate
these pictures and to recognize that a coin is a unit.
(For the later Air signs, that unification progresses, so that Libra
tries to balance learning and teaching, while Aquarius tends to lean
rather towards teaching than learning, although obviously one cannot
teach without having learned earlier in life.)
The following ones are maybe less strictly convincing at the moment:
Selective views, language, communication:
The perception of different angles leads to the selection of some
preferred angles. From a certain age, I guess, children start to only
partially inform their parents about what they do and think. So,
communication and language seem to be quite closely bound to that
process in the development of a child.
The image of a butterfly:
Is often associated with Gemini, as far as I can tell. A butterfly
is sometimes resting for a while on a flower, having its wings
folded into apparently one (unified) or slowly moving both wings,
then suddenly it flies into the air and eventually lands at the
next flower. It is also interesting that butterflies fertilize the
flowers they visit, which very likely leads to other things that
other astrologers have written about Gemini.
I hope this is tangible.
: PS; Alain, having noticed your own approach to symbolism, and in
: particular your penchant for associating number with astrology, I
: think you'd personally find Dane Ruydhyar's *Astrology of Personality*
: enjoyable and informative, as well as many if not all of his other
: copious works (and I mean that in all the possible ways that the term
: "copious" can be defined, heheh!).
Thanks!
Quincunx
If you connect all signs by quincunxes (5/12 of the circle,
150 degrees), you get a star with 12 corners, a dodecagram.
A star with so many corners, has a small, almost circular
core, which makes the star look almost like a sun. The 12
corners become twelve rays of light, the twelve signs of
the zodiac...
There is a short connection between two signs in quincunx
and a long one back, that goes across 11 signs. Reminds me
quite a bit of the game where a number of people stand in
a line and wisper something into the ear of the neighbour.
The message is transformed quickly into something that has
little ressemblance with the original.
My natal moon is conjunct my MC, and is at a quincunx to
all three major collective planets: Uranus, Neptune and
Pluto. In my experience, no matter what I say in public,
it is never immediately recognized, and what I get back
is often quite puzzling to me.
Thus, considering also the currently retrograde Mercury,
how about turning things around instead ? Instead of a
direct communication to the public, why not make that
communication as indirect as possible ? In direct contact,
also in written form, many people tell me that I am very
good at explaining even very complex, technical things in
a way that is immediately undestandable, even for people
who are generally not technically minded. So, likely,
writing to individual astrologers and organisations, will
result in a more "direct" response by the public, because
the general public will in the end not read what I wrote,
but instead what others understood or interpreted in my
works. These interpretations will likely not be quite
what I had in my mind, but it will reach people and come
back to me.
So a complex problem, with apparently no timely solution,
has finally yielded to a workable solution, by looking at
things from the opposite side (Mercury, Time and Free Will):
All I have to do, is ensure that what I send out, will not
be directly published by me in that form. Very elegant and
also very simple...
(Sun in Sagittarius, cf. also Psyche's 3rd task).
alain :)
Larry Swain wrote:
: The conspicuous absence of Noel Tyl from all our lists just occurred
: to me. I have my own opinion as to why he didn't leap immediately to
: mind but I'm very curious about how y'all think of him -- both his
: approach as well as his style.
I have heard the name before on usenet. Anybody able to indicate a
book by Noel Typ that would contain quotes about the signs that I
could use ? (I have not been able to find a book at amazon.com
which would directly contain at least a section about signs.)
Thanks for the replies, so far. I think now that I have solved my
biggest problem with regard to publishing my things (see my post
with subject "Quincunx" that I am about to post to aat, for the
details about what I mean), I can simply go forward and first
collect the material I will need (I can objectively choose about
which properties of the signs to write simply by selecting those
properties that most writers mention), and then write things
down. Being a physicist, solving the technical problems is not
an issue. The architecture was the difficult part, and I guess
how it would come out was already written in the stars at the
time of my birth...
I will offer to send free paper copies of my document about my
simpler model of the 12 signs of the zodiac to usenet posters
that were more or less connected to my posts, after sending it
out world-wide, which will be roughly within a year or two...
The title will be "Elementary Astrology".
Thanks!
(I remain interested in additional suitable authors, especially
some that don't have English as their primary language. Maybe I
will cite Thomas Ring, even though his work about astrology is
even difficult to obtain in German (Astrodienst provides his 4
tome "Astrologische Menschenkunde" as PDFs). But he is probably
known at least as an artist by some people world-wide.)
(PS: I attribute it to Jupiter in Libra that I have left some
loose ends recently in usenet, that I did not reply in some
situations in which, normally, a reply would be expected or
be polite. That was certainly nothing personal in any case!)
My recent posts may have seemed a bit like Hybris.
I guess this is true in some sense, especially with
Jupiter in Libra. However, there is no other person
who can consciously make the decision for me with
regard to what I found. All I can do, is try to find
a path that feels good, make a step and feel again
if it still feels right. This time, I think that the
path that I sketched is a good one to pull through.
At least this is how it feels and appears from all
logic that I am able to apply. However, in my current
feeling, this is not a time to hurry things, at least
not at the moment. I have ordered a few books and will
work on what I said, whenever I have the urge to post
to usenet, thus diverting my instinctive (Aries moon)
forces to a more fruitful goal, in the sense also of
how Freud defined culture.
I will make the document as unobtrusive, beautiful,
simple, and neutral, as possible. Although people
will still be free to ignore things, the situation
of concurrence with other experts, together with the
convincing simplicity and directness of what each
received, will lead to some people picking it up.
I see it as a Swiss property, to only pull through in
such a strictly logical, planned way, what is really
necessary (retrograde Pluto in Aquarius). I see no way
to avoid this step, a better path is not in sight, but
there is room to move with regard to when it will be.
I will simply continue to only do next steps whenever
it feels right to do so, in accordance with collective
wishes (several planets in the 12th house, of which
most in Cancer and generally a high emphasis on Water).
Unless there is direct necessity otherwise, I will only
proceed whenever there is no resistance anymore.
I:I :I:
I wrote:
: I will simply continue to only do next steps whenever
: it feels right to do so, in accordance with collective
: wishes (several planets in the 12th house, of which
: most in Cancer and generally a high emphasis on Water).
: Unless there is direct necessity otherwise, I will only
: proceed whenever there is no resistance anymore.
Just in case: If I could be sure that my model of the signs
will become known and attributed to me (and thus to all the
people around me who suffered or otherwise contributed to
it unconsciously), and that I would be safe, I would not
hesitate a split second and drop the project and only do
what I said in my first post with subject "wei-chi".
Tossing the coins into my document (reflection 19, if my
count is correct, thus related to sun and moon, nodes)...
(If a decision is too big for an individual, it is maybe
best to let the world decide instead.)
TTHH'TTHT'HTHT'THTT'H (* approx. where coins point)
: But first, let me reiterate the initial warning: What follows may be deeply
: disturbing because it may profoundly change several common views about how
: the world is. It may also confront you with unconscious psychological wounds
: (traumas) within yourself, your family or your environment. Deep seated
: trauma*s* are often quite complex matters that are possibly also shared
: within several people. There is no general rule as to whether and when it is
: better to make a trauma conscious or not.
Is that a clear maybe ?
No, it means it would be Hybris for me to decide in my case.
So, no next step, for good.
Third tNep-nSun transit, this one is fated. Neptune will then
be outgoing from my natal sun, past opposition, which means
very probably that the world will bring things back to me and
no longer that I will bring things to the collective.
Follow your heart. Be chiral, have faith.
Pi ? no next step. please alain. please. let it rest. have faith.
let people recover. let them rediscover what you found. they will
come. in ten years or so. let it be. let it be. please. please.
OK, dropped for good.
And no more questions, announcements to usenet. Go ahead.
(except, of course, 3x per year, as planned)
yes.
Women decide. Fate is female in the end.
Bye, usenet!
I wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> : I wrote:
> : > I plan to send a short document (20 pages or so) to astrologers
> : > world-wide that exposes the model and relates it to previous
> : > work about the signs of the zodiac. In order to be convincing,
> : > I would like to show in the document that my model reproduces
> : > the main properties of the 12 signs of the zodiac and can be
> : > used for deeper analysis, too.
> :
> : Don't worry, I dropped the plan.
> :
> : (A previously posted reply is yet to appear at aat.)
>
> That post is still to appear as I am writing this (Mercury is retrograde).
> It contains a list of astrologers/books that I looked at yesterday.
>
> I noticed that in the morning, I am usually more courageous than
> in the evening*. Since I have the moon in Aries at my MC, mood
> changes are quick. I am usually trying to average my feelings
> over at least a few days, but that does not always work.
>
> So, I still in for it (written in the morning of 30 Nov).
>
> * In http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ I associate AC and morning
> with the number 1 and Fire, MC and afternoon with 2 and Air, DC and
> evening with 3 and Water, IC and night with 4 and Earth. Thomas Mann,
> for example, used to write only in the morning and invite people to
> his place for a chat in the afternoon...
>
> Note that this post will likely appear after a few others by me,
> since what I post to aam as Hermes is automatically approved.
>
> Thanks for the replies, so far!
I dropped the idea again, this time for good.
The reason is where the coins pointed in my 19th reflection
(19 is related to sun and moon, because they return to their
positions within a degree ever 19 years):
: But first, let me reiterate the initial warning: What follows may be deeply
: disturbing because it may profoundly change several common views about how
: the world is. It may also confront you with unconscious psychological wounds
: (traumas) within yourself, your family or your environment. Deep seated
: trauma*s* are often quite complex matters that are possibly also shared
: within several people. There is no general rule as to whether and when it is
: better to make a trauma conscious or not.
It is an illusion to assume that people will only catch the simple model
and not be pulled into what I was pulled into, a complete restructuring
of astrology in a simpler or at least more conscious way. It would not be
right to trick anybody into this. People will have to go the longer way
of unmangling what I wrote in public, which people will only do if they
are genuinely interested to do so.
Thanks everybody again for the feedback.
Fate is female in the end. Women decide.
A man can make a few proposals, sooth a few things, but not
decide in the end.
)o+
Dan Barkye wrote:
: His wife called me and said: "Remember the day you said that Shimon will
: die? How did you see it?" in great pains, of course. I couldn't say
: much. I felt ashamed that I had a part, like, in this unfortunate event.
:
: As for the technical discrepancy between my "ten yrs" and "seven" after
: which he did it, I can only say that when you look at hand lines, it
: cannot be as exact. I had the time exact in other occasions, though.
It might help to look for Orcus transits. The Roman God seems to be
quite a bit more saturnian than Pluto. The number seven is related to
Saturn (7th planet, last visible one), who was originally responsible
for death in the sense of the end of physical life. The emphasis on
time of death and your latin quote, further hints at Saturn or Orcus.
In the movie "eXistenZ" by David Cronenberg, people enter a virtual
reality game (at least that is the superficial setting for the movie).
At one point in the movie, a young guy is astonished that he said
something that he could not control. At that point, the woman who is
with him and who is approximately of his age, but appears much more
experienced (in the movie, she is the author of the game), explains
that in the game sometimes the individual cannot decide, some things
are hardcoded to happen to the characters in the game, so that the
story can proceed...
Good luck, Hermes
There are many things on my mind that I could reply
to recent posts. However, just doing all of it myself
is no longer necessary. And people generally love what
they have learned to do themselves, a lot more.
Martin Lewicki wrote (in the thread "Re: Mainstream books
about the zodiac by widely respected authors?"):
: > Fate is female in the end. Women decide.
: >
: > A man can make a few proposals, sooth a few things, but not
: > decide in the end.
:
: Sigh... :(
:
: > )o+
: >
: >
:
: Martin
Yeah...
I found something that I could do though, something quite
simple, but probably sufficient in the long term. I added
a few sentences at the top of
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
that start with "Dear Visitor". By addressing the reader
directly, he/she will not see my moon at the MC, quincunx
all three major collective planets (cf. post "Quincunx"
to alt.astrology.tropical), but more my AC at about 2 Leo
and my slighly retrograde Mercury at about 0 Leo.
For the same reason, I cannot reproduce what is written
there - you will have to go there and see for yourself.
It is amazing how a few simple sentences can make a big
difference...
So, instead of being puzzled or misunderstanding my site
in one of many ways, probably some people will take the
time for a deeper and broader look at the site. (In the
weblog, I can see that the typical visitor hardly follows
any links and, if reading something, often only does that
for at most a few minutes. There are exceptions, like the
person who visited this year when the sun was in Pisces
and apparently read discoveries.pdf from beginning to end
in about 4 hours - thanks!)
Let me recite, for rMercury...
Martin Lewicki wrote (in the thread "Re: Mainstream books
about the zodiac by widely respected authors?"):
: > Fate is female in the end. Women decide.
: >
: > A man can make a few proposals, sooth a few things, but not
: > decide in the end.
:
: Sigh... :(
:
: > )o+
: >
: >
:
: Martin
Astrodienst has a Christmas Calendar online that expresses,
in my view, the general collective feeling of "please no more",
enough purging and reducing, more time to live and feel, etc.
(There are doors that you can open and find quotes related
to astrology and life at astro.com; you can only open the
ones up to today, unless you prefer to cheat, of course!)
Sure, a lot of that can be attributed to Uranus in Pisces,
or one could also point at the USA's Sibley progressed sun
now in Pisces, but being a Swiss citizen, my feeling hints
at something a little bit different...
It may be wrong, but it is beautiful, thus it fits with the
current times anyway (actually, most people might consider
it more a christmas fairy tale - so what!):
In the progressed charts for Switzerland, the moon has quite
recently entered Sagittarius. That is in both the chart of
the modern state of around 1850 and the original birth date
of August 1st, 1291, using a time of 7 am (In my recollection
the 3 guys from the three different Kantons that united then
by swearing with their 3 x 3 raised fingers, met according
to myth early in the morning of that day).
Switzerland, land of high precision clocks. This hints at
maybe the Swiss moon being synchronized with the moon of the
world, with the progressed moon of the chart of the world
(or at least of planet earth).
In the previous 2.5 years, there has been a lot of cutting
job in Switzerland, and the generation with Pluto in Virgo
who entered managing jobs at that time, was not very well
able to resist and became sucked into it. They appear now
to be coming slowly back to their senses, but back to the
story...
In Switzerland, there is generally a high respect for nature,
to protect what is beautiful, but maybe too weak to defend
itself. That view appears to be contradictory to a successful
market economy, and, yet, Switzerland's economy is exactly
that.
Let me recite once more, this time for the fates:
Martin Lewicki wrote (in the thread "Re: Mainstream books
about the zodiac by widely respected authors?"):
: > Fate is female in the end. Women decide.
: >
: > A man can make a few proposals, sooth a few things, but not
: > decide in the end.
:
: Sigh... :(
:
: > )o+
: >
: >
:
: Martin
Here is my schedule for the years to come:
- 5 May, 10 Oct, 23 Dec, starting next spring:
Post "A few new discoveries...", similar to the one that
I posted this autumn, exact words already written a few
weeks ago, but not published yet
Post it 3 times:
- crosspost alt.astrology+sci.physics+alt.philosophy
- alt.astrology.moderated
- alt.sci.physics.new-theories
- I do not exclude additional posts in the years to come,
but it does not feel like that would be necessary any
time soon
- I can be contacted and would not mind (if I like whoever
contacts me) to meet and talk about what I have found out.
I am quite reluctant to travel and will not give talks.
When I wrote the introduction at my web site yesterday, it
was a bit like magic. I wrote it first almost in one flow
in a text editor and then retyped it in Photoshop and there
the line breaks immediately were at the right spot, the
lines were not much jagged and the text looked immedately
fine, only in the last sentence that was first different.
Almost simultaneously, I noticed that the line would not
break well and the text looked and felt wrong. I corrected
the text to something that felt better and line break came
again right, like magic...
Merry Christmas and Happy New Years!
kjelleman wrote:
[...]
: Neptune (earthquakes and the sea) has a 135 degree aspect to the Moon
: (ebb and flow) but otherwise only very nice trine/sextiles to Jupiter,
: Venus and Mercury. Well, yes, it is 45 degrees from the SU/PL midpoint
: too.
[...]
: MOON 28 GEM 11'29
[...]
The planetary nodes of Orcus are currently around 28 Gem/Sag 07'.
See also Krakatoa 1883 for tight aspects between Neptune and some
planetary nodes. Might even be a general necessity for earthquakes
and thus maybe some day helpful for predicting earthquakes.
The emphasis of this quake on the point Aries/Taurus (n.node, at a
close trine to Mars, and conjunct IC) reminds also symbolically of
the eruption of San Torini very roughly around 1500 BC that marked
the end of the Minoan culture and thus the end of the Age of Taurus
in that region. (The first star of the constellation of Aries came
about then to rise at the beginning of spring).
The mythology of Poseidon has many links to Taurus. The labyrinth
of the Minotaurus, for example, reminds quite a bit of the dangers
of getting lost in the realm of the unconscious.
)o+
JohnHalloran wrote:
: Richard Nolle deserves a lot of credit for calling attention to the
: danger period created by the December 12 SuperMoon, which conjoined
: Pluto at 21 Sag, and its aftermath.
:
: At his web site, http://www.astropro.com/forecast/predict/2004-12.html,
: Richard wrote:
:
: "The last SuperMoon of 2004 (the second most powerful such alignment of
: the year, after the one on July 2nd) augurs major turbulence in the
: Earth's crust, seas and atmosphere around mid-month. That's bound to be
: one of the big stories for December. The end of the month, under the
: aegis of the high-declination full moon on the 26th, is likewise more
: or less certain to see an upsurge in strong storms and notable seismic
: activity."
:
: John Halloran
: http://www.halloran.com/
From a contemporary scientific point of view, one would simply suspect
the higher tidal (gravitational) forces to be the origin of the quake.
The earth is at its closest point to the sun at New Year 2005, while
the moon came close (as mentioned above) December 12th and will come
even a little bit closer again around January 10th.
Symbolically, the time around January 10th has a similarity to sunday's
quake, namely Venus and Mercury will conjoin at the first degrees of
Capricorn, forming an exact trine to the northern lunar node a little
bit earlier. That might suggest seismic activity, or maybe not.
Even more symbolically, the synchronicity with the Huygens mission to
Saturn's moon Titan (detached Dec 25, planned landing Jan 14), roughly
the "last white spot" in the solar system, a moon larger than Mercury
and possibly covered with an ocean of Methane or Ethane, hints at the
sea and the dangers of human progress relative to nature (e.g. Titanic).
Hermes
In 2005, there will be many celebrations on the occasion of
the 100th anniversary of the year (1905) in which Einstein
made 3 of his 5 most important contributions to science.
The number 5 is, of course, often associated with genius,
as are quintiles and the 5th harmonic...
Einstein published theories about the following in 1905:
- Photoeffect (for this he got the Nobel Prize in 1921)
- Brownian Motion
- Special Relativity (including the now popular formula
for the equivalence of rest mass and energy E=mc^2)
During that time he worked in Bern (Switzerland) at the
patent office and was with his first wife, Mileva Maric.
History shows that a fruitful mix for new discoveries at
that time was the following:
1) something male
2) something female
3) something Western European (esp. German)
4) something Eastern European (esp. Slav)
5) something Jewish
6) (plus maybe something Swiss)
In the case of Einstein, he had 1+3+5+6, while Mileva Maric
provided 2+4. In the case of C.G. Jung, he provided 1+3+6,
while Sabina Spielrein, who met him in August 1904, provided
2+4+5. Kafka's novel "Das Schloss" (the castle/lock), which
is, in my personal view, a key (pun!) novel about modernity,
about the Age of Aquarius, appears to have been influenced
quite a bit by Milena Jesenska (2+4; Kafka: 1+3+4+5).
I tend to see myself (1+3+6) a "victim"/"beneficiary" of a
similar mix. Had there not been communism, I would have
never met Pavlina (born [...], now carrying a different
name due to marriage, so revealing her name will not allow
to trace her directly), 2+4 (to my knowledge not 5) in Zurich
in 1981 and fallen in love with her in the spring of 1982.
And had she not been interested in astrology, I would have
never read Liz Greene's (2+4(roots)+5+6) "Sag' mir dein
Sternzeichen und ich sage dir, wie du liebst" ("Star Signs
for Lovers", republished later as "Astrology for Lovers"),
which I did sometime between 1982 and 1984, but did not get
it then, maybe because the translation to German had been
stripped of the mythology (which I would have very likely
liked a lot) and the dialogues in a very aquarian way...
Only in 1998, I tried again and started to understand. Fate.
But back to Einstein.
It is worth noting that Quaoar, Orcus and especially Sedna
have shown up at very prominent places in his birth chart
(14 March 1879, 11:30 AM LMT in Ulm, Germany):
- Quaoar in the 12th conjunct the ascendent
- Orcus between Mars and northern lunar node
- Sedna closely conjunct after Part of Fortune and before
Mercury and Saturn
Einstein's 4th discovery, General Relativity, was published
in 1916. It was different than the previous 3 through its
geometrical approach (spacetime curved by mass).
But even scientists are often not aware of Einstein's maybe
most important long-term contribution to science, namely his
way of using the
Gedankenexperiment (Thought Experiment)
Thanks to Max M. Kohler for bringing that to my knowledge.
(I am aware that the general concept has older roots.)
He used simplified experiments (often in forms in which they
might not have been performed at the time), to find answers
to fundamental questions.
The Gedankenexperiment that it makes no difference if you are
in a closed room and that room either is in a rocket that
accelerates with 1g or is standing on earth, was at the root
of General Relativity. Famous are also the Gedankenexperiments
with which Einstein challenged Niels Bohr and Quantum Mechanics,
especially the one where Bohr used Einstein's General Theory of
Relativity to prove Quantum Mechanics right.
A time like this, with Pluto in Sagittarius, is likely not bad
for regenerating the Gedankenexperiment, even laying the
foundation for making it more broadly used. I hope to have done
something in that respect too. I hope also that sometime a more
subtle thinker than me, like Einstein, will be able to make
earthquakes and other natural disasters better predictable...
Douglas Adams in the 5th book of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy Trilogy, "Mostly Harmless":
Anything that happens, happens.
Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen,
causes something else to happen.
Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again,
happens again.
It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.
Quantum field theory and the fabric of fate. Neptune can very
likely not be catched by following linear logic. Loops (nodes)
are likely necessary. Unfortunately, nothing more specific at
the moment, except, of course, to improve Tsunami alerts...
Hermes (Solaris)
)o+
The chinese word for a well, "jing" is written rougly like that:
| |
---+---+---
| |
---+---+---
| |
See "Writing and Literacy in Chinese, Korean and Japanese", by
Insup Taylor and M. Martin Taylor (John Benjamins, Amsterdam),
http://www.mmtaylor.net/Literacy_Book/DOCS/04.html:
: jing ('a well') represents eight square lots of fields, divided among eight families,
: reserving the middle square with a well in it for public use. In ancient China eight
: families formed a village and cultivated a well-field in common for the purpose of
: taxation. Alternately, the character is a pictograph of a well with a square opening.
: Sometimes a well has a center dot, which may represent a bucket that brings water up
: from the well.
Taking 1-Fire, 2-Air, 3-Water and 4-Earth the transformations
of the signs in the zodiac and thus of their elements become:
Transformation of Air: 1+2+3 = 6
Transformation of Fire: 4+1+2 = 7
Transformation of Earth: 1+4+3 = 8
Transformation of Water: 4+3+2 = 9
The I Ching consists of 8 x 8 hexagrams, the Tao Te Ching is
formulated in 9 x 9 parts.
In the West, 8/9 are also associated with Uranus/Neptune and
the lunar nodes, as well as, of course, 8th/9th house.
So, both the earthy nature of 8 and the watery nature of 9
reflect very directly in ancient chinese agriculture. It also
shows their interdependence: Without water, the plants on the
earth could not grow and people would have nothing to eat.
The needs of water are more transcendental: Without earth, it
would have no purpose.
Chuang Tzu's fable of the tortoise and the frog that lives in
a well (Book 17, Chapter 9) is another variation of the theme,
relating also to the legend that the hexagrams of the I Ching
were first discovered by an emperor on the back of a tortoise.
Note that 8/9 is also a theme of the current Uranus/Neptune
reception in Aquarius/Pisces. Very tersely: Earth quakes,
water starts to move, water reaches shore (earth), water piles
up into a tsunami, tsunami kills people, destroys houses,
which causes again a more watery, transcendental reaction,
namely people start to care about each other more, then they
start to help to rebuild things (earth), and so on...
The glyph above reminds also of Tic-Tac-Toe, a game that ends
always in a tie, unless one of the two sides (cross=earth or
circle=water) makes a "mistake".
16 Jan 2005
I wrote (17 February 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical):
: me:
: : The nodes are mysterious
:
: I just saw Sofia Coppola's "Lost in Translation". There
: the guy and the girl meet two times by chance. The first
: time he looks at her in the elevator and she smiles at
: him, but forgets him. The second time he sees her from
: inside the taxi that is driving him to the airport and
: stops to kiss her goodbye.
:
: Actually, I stole the word "mysterious" from Liz Greene,
: in her analysis of Astrodienst's chart (www.astro.com):
: "These mysterious points are often associated with "fate"
: because they represent the intersection points of the
: Sun's and Moon's orbits: a combination of "destiny"
: (the Sun) and "embodiment" (the Moon)."
:
: The first meeting by chance with someone one might fancy
: is often without consequences (in the movie she forgets),
: but if a second one occurs by chance, then things are
: usually different, more fated.
:
: Life has a beginning and an end (two points) and between
: one is "lost in translation", lost in a transformation
: that one does not really understand.
:
: Is that the difference between the first and the second
: meeting by chance, that one feels less lost in life then?
:
: The movie was very beautiful and also very symmetric:
: In most scenes one could have interchanged the two main
: actors and the scene would have still felt real. That is
: something that is extremely rare, in movies and in life
: (to be able to mentally exchange men and women in any
: situation and get something that still feels real).
At the second meeting by chance (and last time he sees her in
the movie), Bob whispers something into Charlotte's ear, not
loud enough for the audience to understand. I have seen some
comments on the web that judged that scene somehow less good
than the rest of the movie...
Well, tonite I showed the movie to my parents, who have just
bought a DVD player and had spent a few months in Japan (mainly
Tokyo and Kyoto) in the mid 1960's. They liked the movie a lot,
and to my mother it was obvious what Bob had whispered into
Charlotte's ear, namely arranged that they would meet again,
for the simple reason that Charlotte smiled and looked happy
after he had whispered into her ear...
I went home, and used headphones and turned the volume up and,
after about 20 tries, I could discern quite clearly something
about "at the next business trip", "I will be right there and
pick you up", "Okay?" - "Okay."
Sometimes I really feel like a stupid man who will never be
able to understand the really important things about life.
Astrology (Virgo) is often too analytical to make such things
visible. This morning I had a dream or half-dream about how to
understand the old signs of the zodiac (Sag to Psc). In that
dream, the key was that the symbol for Chiron looks like a key,
while Janus, the roman god with the two heads (who apparently
the romans considered higher than Jupiter/Zeus) carries a key
in one hand and a stick in the other.
So, the key (because the constellation Sagittarius is Chiron,
or at least another Centaur), links Sagittarius to Capricorn
(Janus is the god that gave his name to January), while the
stick he carries links Capricorn to Aquarius, or Janus to Februs,
the roman god who's name apparently means "purification", and
appears to be related to "fever". Maybe not astonishingly, a
google search for "Februs" appears to bring up mainly links to
a spanking magazine and the sparse actual references are even
of similar content. There is also reference to the Kore that
reawakens after the winter, and, maybe in some sense, most
interestingly, Februs is also one of the names of the guy
called Pluto, Hades, Orcus, Dis, Dis Pater,...
One of the pictures I remember from easter sunday 2004 at the
world astrology congress in basel, presented by Melanie Reinhart,
was Aquarius giving/getting a tiny cup from Capricorn, while
giving (or reveiving) a great gush of water to (from) Pisces
Australis, the constellation of the southern fish.
I guess the emergence of such a key, like in my dream, is quite
characteristic of February, and thus the winter signs.
Of course, I can also see relations to Saturn/Lilith and Chiron
on the axis of Saturn's nodes, and the quincunxces to Pluto and
previously Mars. But, in the sense of with what I started this
analysis, maybe the most synthetic astrological way of looking
at the current situation is the trines and sextiles between the
lunar nodes, Mars and Orcus, all around 26 degrees of Fire.
Taking another step closer to the nodes, to life:
P., contact me on/before your next business trip and I will be
there to pick you up...
Alain
I wrote:
> Taking another step closer to the nodes, to life:
>
> P., contact me on/before your next business trip and I will be
> there to pick you up...
>
> Alain
No, I won't. It's too late.
> I wrote:
>
> > Taking another step closer to the nodes, to life:
> >
> > P., contact me on/before your next business trip and I will be
> > there to pick you up...
> >
> > Alain
>
> No, I won't. It's too late.
That is not quite accurate, and not quite fair.
My statement was naive, but genuine at the moment.
But, we would probably never have fit together in
a "normal" relationship, the possibility of that
is more an illusion than an actual possibility.
And, maybe most importantly, we never really met
by chance, not even once, even less the required
two...
So, maybe in another life...
I am not made for exposure to the public.
Alain
Ray Murphy wrote:
: Hi All,
:
: A few weeks ago I began writing a post similar to this one, but it
: became to long and complicated, so it's still in the 'draft' box.
:
: The simplified version is this:
:
: What are some of the memorable posts on aamod?
: It doesn't matter what they were, or how old they are, as long as they
: are memorable for at least one person.
:
: This could prove very interesting, and might even surprise some of the
: writers.
My favorite is Beep's post about her Hermit Crab "Hide" that went
for a moonwalk (in November last year):
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/6fb181cec7c9ff8b
I had the impression then that he would come back, just went for a
walk, and that it would be better to write nothing. Reminded me also
of a movie called "Poetic Justice" with Janet Jackson in it. She has
Jupiter in Cancer, is usually well protected, a lot more than her
brother Michael; with Saturn in Cancer the worst that happened was
the glitch with her breast at super bowl. I think I also remember
that Orcus was at an interesting place in the horary. Anyway, the
reasons I liked the post were not really analytical...
: I have many, as we all do I suppose, but one that immediately comes to
: mind is the description of Capricorn given by Lisa Eclipse about 6
: months ago.
Do you have a link ? Or any other additional clues ?
(Google yields 500 posts for the search "Lisa Eclipse Capricorn"...)
)o+
Keera Ann Fox wrote (in reply to Esa):
: That's ignoring the fact that humanity is inherently good, including the
: Capricorns and Scorpios. Ultimately, we are trying to understand how
: spirit manifests in the material world ("as above, so below") and the
: more intense signs, like Scorpio and Capricorn, actually present us with
: some of the clearest examples.
:
: Scorpio is ruled by Mars, which also rules Aries. Together, they
: represent the spine and the Kundalini snake. Scorpio is at the butt end
: and anchors us; Aries is the head end and connects us to spirit. Both
: are necessary for us here on Earth. Mars is an energy that ensures we
: fight to live; the methods may vary, but the goal is to survive and
: improve.
:
: You also may not be aware of Capricorn's true nature, which is the
: absolute embodiment of spirit in a material world (all the Earth signs
: teach us something about how spirit manifests in matter, culminating in
: Capricorn/Saturn). Saturn is the ultimate teacher in how physical law
: follows spiritual law.
:
: -snip rest-
:
: --
: ****** Keera in Norway ******
: * Think big. Shrink to fit. *
: http://home.online.no/~kafox/
I have been thinking quite a bit about understanding the old signs,
i.e. Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces, lately. They can
appear to be extremely complex, because of their experience, of the
things they are ashamed of having done when younger and now at least
partially made unconscious, as well as the feeling of the things
they did not do when they were younger, but felt that it would have
been better if only they had.
Two thoughts about where to start, besides the one that I mentioned
recently (Chiral key handed over in transformed shapes):
- astrology values where things start high, thus look at the point
where the old signs start, i.e. right after Scorpio ends near the
end of November (actually, that is where my part of fortune is!)
- look at the planets who rule the old signs, the slowest and thus
oldest of the planets known in antiquity, Jupiter and Saturn
I will do mainly the latter here, and start with the glyphs for these
two planets, inspired also by a reply by Christine on that subject
a few months ago.
Interpreting the cross in the glyph of Jupiter as the cross formed
by the AC-DC and MC-IC axes, the crescent (moon) is at the ascendent,
in the 12th house. In the recent thread about houses and there in
the part about the 12th house, Chris Mitchell wrote the following
(in reply to a question by Sharyn):
: >I mean, how in the WORLD can the 12th house be the house of sorrow,
: >imprisonment, misfortune, etc, when the Sun rises there? And given the
: >Gauquelin findings, the angular houses (which is not to say the angles
: >themselves) don't seem to be what we think they are, either.
: >
:
: According to Ptolemy, it's because things are distorted there. When
: the Sun rise, it is the "wrong" colour, the "wrong" size and the
: apparent postion of planets also alters - this is because of
: atmospheric distortion, but the Greeks were well aware of the
: nature of the 12th. They "grocked a great wrongness" about
: the 12th :)
The strongest memory I have from your website, Keera, is clearly the
false color image of the (full) moon, of which a part at the bottom
is missing, just like the moon is just rising (or setting):
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020316.html
(link to image with higher resolution at NASA)
Of course, I can see the personal connection, but would rather like
to use the image here as inspiration for understanding the old signs.
For me, the strongest single theme in Sagittarius is the wound that
won't heal (in mythology caused accidentally by Chiron's friend
Heracles with an arrow, i.e. by the fault of a younger version of
Chiron, an apollinarian archer (Apollon means "destroyer")).
Pisces, who are also ruled by Jupiter have a similar wound, but here
it is apparently a wound of a clearly female kind. By far the most
direct description of this, is the dream that a woman with the sun
in Pisces who had problems with her husband (sun also in Pisces)
told to Liz Greene, the only time they met:
: My husband and I are driving to Jung's house, where we will be
: shown a film. At first the journey is comfortable. But the
: landscpae becomes unfamiliar, and I become uneasy. Then I
: realise with horror that the car is driving itself. We arrive at
: Jung's house. My husband walks through the front door. The
: film is being run in colour, or so we have been told, but when I
: glimpse it it seems to be in black and white. I cannot go through
: the doorway, because a sick woman is lying across the thresh-
: old. I do not want to go near her, but cannot step over her to join
: my husband.
(Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate, Samuel Weiser, 1984. Reviewers
are explicitly allowed to cite short paragraphs. Since Liz Greene only
met that woman once, it is highly unlikely that she asked for permission
before publication of that dream, but probably she formulated it into
sentences. Finally, the nature of dreams appears to be at least
significantly collective, so the idea of having a copyright on a dream
may in some sense even be an insult to the fates, although formally/
legally the copyright certainly exists.)
I think Liz Greene writes something about the above a bit later that
is clearly false, which is crucial, because she very rarely says
anything that can be called bluntly wrong (according to public birth
data, her MC is in Pisces and her sun in Virgo): "Interestingly, the
dream suggests that her vision of life is rendered colourless because
of this porblem, for she can only see in black and white a film which
everyone else perceives in Technicolor."
I think that it is the other way round: In Quantum Mechanics, there
is the wavefunction, symbolized by the greek letter Psi (two moons
resting on AC and DC, which looks very similar to the glyph of the
modern (co-)ruler of Pisces, i.e. Neptune). The wave function stands
for all possibilities of how the world can be, for all that could
be before an actual measurement is made. When things are measured,
the possibilities suddenly disappear. Physicists call this "process"
literally the *Collapse of the Wave Function*. The physical quantity
called "Action" (energy x time or momentum x space) comes in units,
which are at the origin of the term "Quantum Mechanics", namely in
units of a quantity called "h" or "h bar", which is h/2pi. The latter
has its own glyph, namely a lower case "h" with a line crossing the
"handle" of the letter "h", i.e. closely resssembling the Saturn's
glyph, except for the lunar crescent attached at the bottom.
So, it is stepping into the house that would cause the wave function
to collapse, that would reduce a color movie of all possibilities
of how the world can be, into a black and white discrete, saturnian
reality. It is stepping into Jung's house that would make the world
less colorful for that Pisces woman, not the opposite.
Let me go back to Sagittarius, and try to describe the transition to
the two signs ruled by Saturn and then back to Jupiter (Pisces).
From Sagittarius to Capricorn, the moon goes down below the horizon,
just like nature starts to rest in winter. People used to put a doll
filled with seeds into the ground before winter, to recover it back
in spring, when it had already started to sprout.
So, the spirits wander below the surface, but retain great powers.
The god Pan, who is associated with Capricorn, practiced divination,
which can be interpreted as a way of reading earth's intentions,
of making them concrete. Capricorn is still close to the surface,
so that he can pick up what is natural and shrink it into something
that is solid.
Aquarius is already higher up (William Lilly associates the part of
a house that is close to the ground to Capricorn, but the part of it
that is near the roof to Aquarius), is airier. He uses the realities
that Capricorns created and tries to weave them into forms that are
useful generally for humanity and will presist beyond a single cycle
of the zodiac (i.e. are progress).
With Pisces, nature itself starts again to emerge from the ground,
destroying in the end Aquarius' "glass ceiling" who needed to ignore
nature's direct calls for a moment, to be able to give previously
emerged stuff some persistent, easily flowing form.
Is humanity good ?
I guess it is at least a common trait of the old signs to consider
that to be so, which has some weight, because they have experienced
more than young and adult people. Jupiter does very little, in the
hope and faith that things will turn out good, while Saturn does
things to others, in the strong belief and also with religious zeal,
that he himself is good, so that what he does will in the end be
good for others. Of course, according to the above, Aquarius is the
one who makes concret plans to actively help other people, out of a
feeling of love:
: "What do you do", Mr. K. Was asked, "if you love a human being?"
: "Ich make a sketch of him", said Mr. K., "and take care that he
: becomes similar to it." "Who? The sketch?" "No", said Mr. K.,
: "The human being."
(Bertold Brecht, sun in Aquarius, in "Geschichten vom Herrn Keuner",
Suhrkamp, 1971. "Keuner" is very similar to "keiner" (nobody).
English translation by me.)
Leo can also have a tendency to help without being asked to do so,
but rather does so directly and by words than by acting secretly
without asking, but I think the general theme is important in the
axis Aquarius-Leo and thus for the Age of Aquarius.
Even prominent people have compared the current president of the USA
to Hitler. The reason why a similarity is perceived, is that both had
some kind of Aquarian missionary zeal. That is, of course, also where
the difference between the two lies (at least so far, and, I hope,
also into the future):
- Hitler: Killed millions
- Dubya: Killed thousands, forced people to vote, did *not* destroy
muslim mosques, did not force Iraqis to become christians, etc.
Acting out of one's own convictions is very difficult. A some point
the ignored forces of nature, can strike back. For example, it was
probably not a good idea to use the same prison (Abu Graibh) in which
Saddam's helpers used to tortue and expect that one can fully escape
the spirits in the ground, simply by consciously ignoring them.
The USA is for me sort of an egg to hatch the age of Aquarius, as is
also visible by the moon in Aquarius and the nodes on the same axis.
I wonder how the world will be like in a thousand years. Eternal
peace or all kinds of countries invading each other in order to help
each other out ? (If you have time machines in the future, please
send me an e-mail...)
Are there things that persist, that only have a beginning but no end,
like Aquarius probably assumes, or does everything end ? Probably the
latter in last consequence. I trust Pisces most in that respect, since
they actually experience all the opposites in their lives (Dyonisus
born twice, for example).
It seems to me that the unification theme in Aquarius and Leo is male,
because the signs are male. Brecht, in the above text, uses the word
"Mensch" ("man" in the sense of "human being"), but it is "der Mensch",
i.e. formally male. So when he writes "Er" (he) he is writing about
any human being, but using the male form for doing so, so things are
ambivalent to some degree.
How much of the periods with Uranus and Neptune will persist ? Equal
rights for women compared to men are certainly an improvement, but in
some deeper sense they are also making the world overall subliminally
more male, so it is also the seed for rebellion (also an attribute of
Aquarius), for a next round of improvements.
Before I forget again: Lilith's glyth, which is roughly the opposite
of Saturn, hints at summer.
Note: Mars is now in Capricorn, Venus in Aquarius. I still continue
to interpret one important aspect of this as: People are now like
Capricorn towards men (that has just now changed, so feel free to
connect it to your own experiences), but people are like Aquarius
towards women (changed a few days ago).
[Hypthesis H10 in http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf ]
)o+
DJ wrote:
: What I find interesting about a quintile,
: geometrically, is that while the other "major" aspects
: can be formed and replicated by straightforward
: means--it's easy to form trines, squares, sextiles
: etc. on a tabletop with a few toothpicks or
: marbles--quintiles are more complex. They can't be
: formed without taking into account three
: dimensions--the toothpicks have to overlap; the
: marbles rest in a bowl. While sextiles, trines,
: squares are found in "static" crystals of chemical
: compounds, quintiles and related forms are found in
: "living" things, not static. Where there are
: quintiles, there is life!
Interesting is also the relation to Venus (goddess of
love, a word which is very similar to "live"), namely
the 5 petal rose that the orbit of Venus makes around
earth (at each approach, the same side of Venus kisses
earth, because Venus rotates very slowly and in tune
with orbital periods) during 8 years:
http://astrology-world.com/venus.html
("VENUS: The Rose & the Heart, by Nick Kollerstom)
Each petal is in the shape of a heart, which reminds
also of Valentine's day, thus linking to Aquarius...
)o+
Sharyn wrote:
: > Interesting is also the relation to Venus (goddess of
: > love, a word which is very similar to "live"), namely
: > the 5 petal rose that the orbit of Venus makes around
: > earth (at each approach, the same side of Venus kisses
: > earth, because Venus rotates very slowly and in tune
: > with orbital periods) during 8 years:
: >
: > http://astrology-world.com/venus.html
: > ("VENUS: The Rose & the Heart, by Nick Kollerstom)
: >
:
: Thanks SO much for posting that article link, it's very interesting. I've
: put Kollerstrom's "Interface" on my list of 'must have' books.
:
: Have you also seen his articles on metals and the planets?
: They are extractions from his book "The Metal Planet Relationship" and
: posted on Deb Houlding's site:
: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/metal.html
:
: This one is another on my list of books to get. I love his stuff.
Thanks, lots of interesting stuff there that I did not know.
I found also something with regard to quintiles there, which
catched my attention: The chart of the creation of Plutonium
has two quintiles (Ura-Plu and Mer-Nep) and two biquintiles:
14 Dec 1940 at 8:00 PM PST in Berkeley CA
According to Kollerstrom, there were 5 Ura-Plu quintiles around
that time and Plutonium was created at the 5th. Very fittingly,
today Uranus is (again) almost exactly quintile Pluto, but this
time Uranus is ahead in the zodiac...
Kollerstrom has even more interesting things to say about the
quintiles and deciles in that chart.
: > Each petal is in the shape of a heart, which reminds
: > also of Valentine's day, thus linking to Aquarius...
: >
:
: Which, of course, is traditionally ruled by Saturn, which finds it's
: exaltation in Libra, the sign of love and marriage.
)o+
GraZia wrote:
: "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> ha scritto nel messaggio
: news:4210c484_3@news.chariot.net.au...
: >
: > News agencies reported that Lucia de Jesus dos Santos, one of the
: > three children of Fatima has died at the age of 97.
: >
: She was probably bon on March 22, 1907
I am a bit astonished that it took me almost a week to see
the obvious:
Transiting Chiron at Lucia's southern lunar node at
the transition from Capricorn to Aquarius
Here's why:
Chiron's orbit is between the orbits of Saturn and Uranus.
So, now Chiron is at the transition between the two signs
that are ruled by Saturn resp. Uranus, namely Capricorn
and Aquarius (using modern rulerships). So, this point in
the chart is generally very chiral, even more so with
Chiron transiting it.
With traditional rulership, this point is between two signs
that are ruled by Saturn and opposite the point Cancer/Leo
who are ruled by moon and sun, respectively. So the point
Cancer/Leo is related to life and man, while the opposite
point is related to death, a return to nature.
In Greek mythology, Chiron gave his life in exchange for the
one of Prometheus. Similarly, Lucia's death could be seen
symbolically as her going instead of the Pope, who got sick
around that time. In the 3rd of the 3 revelations that were
given by the Virgin Mary to the 3 girls 13 July 1917 (if I
can trust the internet sources, at the third of a series of
appearances that took place every month between 13 May and
13 October), a Pope dies on top of a field of dead martyrs,
at least if you believe the officially released version of
the third revelation, released 13 May 2000.
Bend it like Beckham in the Age of Aquarius...
(Care for a deeper look? Here are some hints: Mohammed's
5th and youngest child Fatima, what her name means, when
she was born and where Neptune was then, "Fatima's Hand"
(Chiron means "hand"); the nodes in the charts of Spain,
USA, Hegira and the 1981 assassination attempt at the Pope;
where the pope grew up and what happened there in WWII,
his role in ending the Cold War; the symmetry with the
assassination attempt at the US President in the 1980s,
the death of that president, maybe to provide delayed
fulfillment of the indian curse, giving the current one
at least 20 more years to live?; how the city Fatima got
its name; the major influence of the muslim "hand" on
the fate and especially on progress in the West.)
When the Pope visited Switzerland last year, I had the feeling
that he would live as long as Neptune remains in Aquarius.
)o+
["A few new..." created 14 Nov 2004 16:18, last modified 22:37]
Dates: 5.10, 10.5., 23.12.
Groups: alt.astrology+sci.physics+alt.philosophy,
alt.astrology.moderated, alt.sci.physics.new-theories
(in this order)
Subject: A few new discoveries...
From: Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
Organization: exactphilosophy.net
--- cut here ---
A few new discoveries...
I hope that almost everybody interested in the mysteries
of life will find at least a few interesting things in
what is referenced below... (ranging from physics to
philosophy, psychology, and especially astrology).
Since it was all written by one of the very few people in this
world who have a state-of-the-art knowledge of both science
*and* astrology, the documents below provide a unique modern
perspective at the mysteries of the world, which differs in
many subtle ways from current views in either branch. Therefore,
the best approach to the material will not be a quick glance at
it, which would only lead to rejection due to a few things that
would naturally appear biased or even plain wrong, but to give
it some time, to read it and contemplate about it, maybe to ask
people with different backgrounds how they see things, etc.
Enjoy,
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
--
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
Table of Contents (29 pages)
About ............................................. 1
Abstract .......................................... 1
1 A New Physical Effect ........................... 1
1.1 The Experimental Facts ........................ 1
1.2 Analysis of the Facts ......................... 1
1.3 Gedankenexperiment ............................ 2
1.4 Experimental Challenges ....................... 2
1.5 Hypothetical Consequences ..................... 3
2 Elementary Astrology ............................ 3
2.1 The Planets ................................... 3
2.2 The Star Signs ................................ 4
2.3 Fire (Aries/Leo/Sagittarius) .................. 5
2.4 Water (Cancer/Scorpio/Pisces) ................. 5
2.5 Air (Gemini/Libra/Aquarius) ................... 5
2.6 Earth (Taurus/Virgo/Capricorn) ................ 6
3 Applied Astrology ............................... 6
3.1 The United States of America .................. 6
3.2 Numbers ....................................... 7
3.3 Planetary Aspects ............................. 7
3.4 Synastry and Transits ......................... 7
3.5 Men and Women ................................. 8
3.6 Dreams ........................................ 8
3.7 Astrological Houses ........................... 8
3.8 Astrological Inheritance ...................... 9
3.9 Star Signs in Detail .......................... 9
3.9.1 Aries ...................................... 10
3.9.2 Taurus ..................................... 10
3.9.3 Gemini ..................................... 11
3.9.4 Cancer ..................................... 11
3.9.5 Leo ........................................ 11
3.9.6 Virgo ...................................... 11
3.9.7 Libra ...................................... 12
3.9.8 Scorpio .................................... 12
3.9.9 Sagittarius ................................ 13
3.9.10 Capricorn ................................. 13
3.9.11 Aquarius .................................. 14
3.9.12 Pisces .................................... 14
3.10 Astrological Ages ........................... 14
3.11 The First Age ............................... 15
3.12 The Age of Aries ............................ 15
3.13 The Age of Pisces ........................... 15
3.14 The Age of Aquarius ......................... 16
3.15 Mythology in Life ........................... 18
Hermes ........................................... 19
4 Science and Philosophy ......................... 20
Acknowledgements ................................. 23
References ....................................... 23
Appendices ....................................... 23
A How it came about .............................. 23
B Proof of Discovery ............................. 23
C The Future ..................................... 29
Disclaimer ....................................... 29
Estimation (January 2002) ........................ 29
Link
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Related Documents
Review (of the above document, single page):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.zip
Book of Changes (philosophical approach to astrology):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
Selection of about 50 usenet posts:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/
Titles of these selected posts:
Introductions (to "A few new discoveries in physics")
052 Very brief Description for Scientists
055 The Need for specific Experiments
075 Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
142 Step by Step
158 Virtual Particles
177 Schritt fuer Schritt [german/deutsch]
Physics
108 Quantum Mechanics and Relativity
110 Does the Brain think Quantum Mechanically?
120 Measurement in Science I
121 Measurement in Science II
125 Gedankenexperiment: Schrodinger's Cat, EPR and Decoherence
128 Decoherence and the Role of the Observer
Astrology
078 Motivation in Psychological Astrology
082 Counselor vs. Scientist
088 Does Sagittarius come short on the Internet?
095 Axes and Opposites
103 Astrological Ages I
104 Astrological Ages II
113 Scorpio and the Fates
161 Hexagram: As above, so below
174 Geographie und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
216 Hermes and Five
226 Themes and Experiment
228 Moon Nodes as Gates
236 Close Encounters
244 Opportunity in Greek Mythology
246 Usenet and Experiment
338 Angles and Elements
347 William James Sidis: Life and "Time Reversal"
348 Dry and Wet Law Systems
351 Archaic House Numbering
362 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects I
363 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects II
Philosophy
087 Opposites
114 Experts
123 Philosophy and Science
202 Knowledge and Perception
317 The East and Transformation
337 Aristotle's Elements per Season and Yin-Yang
345 Lost in Translation I - Random Meetings
354 The Music is between the Nodes
356 Lost in Translation II - TOE
Interdisciplinary
069 Twilight Zone
071 Meta Experiment
122 Crystal Clear
165 Butterfly Dream
178 The Art of Association
224 wei-chi
234 Quaoar and Physics
323 4 Gravitation
324 The Science of Association
334 Physik und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
All usenet posts:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/posts.html
About the author:
I am a Swiss physicist and live in Zurich. More on my web site.
(this post is scheduled to be reposted about 3x per year)
Time to crab back and also soon to take back the ego (Saturn).
Chiron transit opposite natal Mercury. Chiron always feels to
me like Peleus wrestling with Thetis. Hermes, the toolmaker,
is not an astrologer. He should simply provide his tools that
he invented so skillfully to people who need them, who can do
something useful with them. "Astrology Tips", by delphi29,
containing tips how to apply elementary approaches to the
zodiac, how associate consciously, how to broaden the view
using the internet and by looking at many things at once,
and more. Take the rest back, discoveries (not the skills,
time and energy in my lifetime to convince anybody of it),
review (relativates main claim, although main claim is very
likely still correct), usenet odyssey, "book of changes".
Hermes, Apollon, the old man / Zeus, and the Lyre.
Petrarca and the Renaissance.
I can see land... Ithaca! Home ;)
[image]
xphi
Dear Visitor, please don't leave too quickly! I havea habit of
writing down only half of what is in my mind in public, which
can make what I write appear incoherent at first sight. So, the
material presented here will very likely only be accessible if
you take some time to study it and to find clues that explain
what is written in one part of the site, in another part. I have
a Ph.D. in physics and have worked several years in research,
including at the famous IBM Zrich Research Lab. Besides, my
knowledge of modern astrology is quite deep and broad, influenced
mainly by the works of Liz Greene and thus related to the legacy
of C.G. Jung. I have also written a quite popular astrology
program for PalmOS devices, "Delphi" (under the pseudonym "Delphi
Twentine"). So, please don't be fooled by appearances; there is
interesting stuff here, which can at the very least serve as
artistic inspiration for others. Enjoy! -- a.st dec'04
[turquoise biohazard symbol] A Warning by the 'Fates'...
[with link to image with 3 paragraphs from discoveries.pdf,
starting with "But first, let me reiterate the initial warning:"]
[end image]
Welcome to exactphilosophy.net
This web site is about a few new discoveries in physics.
Discoveries
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1 symmetry
and can be felt across global distances and through the earth.
The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown. Selective
sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic
forces, might be part of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is also made
plausible how astrology and other ancient mythological beliefs have
persisted unconsciously until today and continue to influence our
fates by means of collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from ancient
greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated
with the star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
influence how one relates to different classes of people. The meanings
associated with star signs themselves derive from different mixtures
of the four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical problems are
discussed in light of the new discoveries.
[green, italic, small]
The abstract is a summary of the hypotheses in the document. Concerning
long-range emotional connections between people, discernment from local
models, as described in my primary review below, is very difficult.
Concerning astrology as a psychological phenomenon, I consider the
effects essentially real and provable in a formal, quantitative way
within maybe 5-10 years. I recognize that my work -- due to its
interdisciplinary nature -- is difficult to grasp for almost everybody.
Thus I have tried to bring it gradually into forms that are more
accessible to the public -- see links under "related documents". Feel
free to pick up any of the leads here. Good luck and take care :)
Full document
Acrobat Reader format: discoveries.pdf
Zipped: discoveries.zip
Related documents
Primary review: review.pdf (zipped)
Book of Changes: book (html)
Usenet news posts: selection (html), posts.html
64 wei-chi (pdf)
Additional Info
Direct factual errors
Disclaimer
Reviews
About me
I* am a physicist and live in Switzerland near Zrich*. I was born
there in 1966 and have studied physics at the Swiss Federal Instititute
of Technology in Zrich (ETHZ)*. Then I have worked for four years at
the IBM Zrich Research Lab* in Rschlikon for my PhD. After that I
have spent one and a half years at McGill University in Montreal, Canada,
working on the same stuff as at IBM. I made most of the discoveries
disclosed here in my spare time during the time span in which I was
working 80% for iT_SEC, a company intZrich that made smart card based
security software. Here is a more formal curriculum vitae.
Here is a selection of 50 articles extracted from my 350+ usenet posts.
Within each of the five categories, the articles are simply in chronological order.
Home
Introductions (to "A few new discoveries in physics")
052 Very brief Description for Scientists (Jun 2002 to sci.physics)
055 The Need for specific Experiments (Jun 2002 to sci.physics)
075 Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac (Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
142 Step by Step (Jun 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
158 Virtual Particles (Jun 2003 to alt.psychology.jung)
177 Schritt für Schritt (Jul 2003 to de.alt.astrologie) [german/deutsch]
Physics
108 Quantum Mechanics and Relativity (Nov 2002 to alt.philosophy, sci.physics, sci.physics.research)
110 Does the Brain think Quantum Mechanically? (Nov 2002 to alt.philosophy, sci.physics)
120 Measurement in Science I (Dec 2002 to sci.math, sci.philosophy.meta, sci.physics)
121 Measurement in Science II (Dec 2002 to sci.math, sci.philosophy.meta, sci.physics)
125 Gedankenexperiment: Schrödinger's Cat, EPR and Decoherence (Jan 2003 to sci.physics.research)
128 Decoherence and the Role of the Observer (Jan 2003 to sci.physics.research)
Astrology
078 Motivation in Psychological Astrology (Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
082 Counselor vs. Scientist (Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
088 Does Sagittarius come short on the Internet? (Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
095 Axes and Opposites (Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
103 Astrological Ages I (Oct 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
104 Astrological Ages II (Oct 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
113 Scorpio and the Fates (Dec 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
161 Hexagram: As above, so below (Jun 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
174 Geographie und Astrologie (Jul 2003 to de.alt.astrologie) [german/deutsch]
216 Hermes and Five (Aug 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
226 Themes and Experiment (Sep 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
228 Moon Nodes as Gates (Sep 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
236 Close Encounters (Sep 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
244 Opportunity in Greek Mythology (Oct 2003 to alt.astrology.moderated)
246 Usenet and Experiment (Oct 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
338 Angles and Elements (Feb 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
347 William James Sidis: Life and "Time Reversal" (Feb 2004 to alt.astrology.moderated)
348 Dry and Wet Law Systems (Feb 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
351 Archaic House Numbering (Feb 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
362 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects I (Mar 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical, alt.astrology.moderated)
363 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects II (Mar 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical, alt.astrology.moderated)
Philosophy
087 Opposites (Sep 2002 to alt.astrology.moderated)
114 Experts (Dec 2002 to sci.physics)
123 Philosophy and Science (Dec 2002 to sci.philosophy.meta, sci.physics)
202 Knowledge and Perception (Aug 2003 to alt.test)
317 The East and Transformation (Jan 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
337 Aristotle's Elements per Season and Yin-Yang (Feb 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
345 Lost in Translation I - Random Meetings (Feb 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
354 The Music is between the Nodes (Feb 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
356 Lost in Translation II - TOE (Mar 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
Interdisciplinary
069 Twilight Zone (Aug 2002 to sci.physics)
071 Meta Experiment (Aug 2002 to alt.philosophy)
122 Crystal Clear (Dec 2002 to sci.math, sci.philosophy.meta, sci.physics)
165 Butterfly Dream (Jul 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
178 The Art of Association (Jul 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
224 wei-chi (Aug 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
234 Quaoar and Physics (Sep 2003 to alt.astrology.tropical)
323 4 Gravitation (Jan 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
324 The Science of Association (Jan 2004 to alt.astrology.tropical)
334 Physik und Astrologie (Feb 2004 to de.alt.astrologie) [german/deutsch]
I make no claims that the articles presented here are accurate, balanced,
complete, real or anything; they are just snippets from previous conversations
in usenet. And thanks very much to everybody who contributed in any way!
[menu in left frame]
[english | deutsch]
Welcome
Book of Changes
- Signs by Elements
-- Basic Opposites
-- Air
-- Aries
-- Aries-Pisces
-- I Ching
- Reflection
- Houses by Numbers
- Divisions
- Aspects and Planets
- Planets and Relations
- Lunar Nodes
Web Links
[book in right frame]
Welcome to my "Book of Changes"
This book presents a new view at Western tropical
astrology, a more simple and analytical point of view.
It reconnects to the philosophical views of ancient
Greece and of ancient China, which were very concrete
-- since they talked about things like rivers, trees,
clouds, mountains, etc. -- but at the same time also
very abstract -- categorizing the world into hot/cold,
dry/wet, light/dark, yin/yang etc.
Although this is not directly a text for beginners,
it can be useful to get an idea of the main properties
of the twelve signs of the zodiac, if it is paired with
another introductory text (or texts). But, despite its
simplicity, the new approach presented here is also
astonishingly rich and deep in content, making it a
beautiful tool for professional astrologers to explore
many things from a new, more structured point of view.
Finally, the simple structure of the new approach is
also something that makes it suitable for formal and
quantitative scientific tests of astrology.
This book is at the moment emerging in posts to the
newsgroup alt.astrology.tropical, to be put up here
a bit later, piece by piece (and translated to German).
If you are new to astrology, the links at the bottom
of this page might be helpful too.
What follows is maybe not best accessed by trying to
grasp things too quickly, but rather by letting go,
by imagining the trees, mountains, fires, houses, etc.
and allowing things to grow naturally in the mind
-- very much in the style of the Tao Te Ching...
Book of Changes
Hi everybody,
With this post I would like to start writing a book.
First concrete posts will be about my view of the
signs as changes between elements, concretely first
Aries as a fire that is starting to burn.
That view is based on Aristotle's view of the world
composed of two opposites -- hot/cold and dry/wet --
that combine in four ways -- Fire/Air/Water/Earth
and can be changed into each other. It is also very
similar to the "I Ching", the Chinese book of changes
that has 8 "Elements" that transform into each other.
Other chapters will follow, say maybe "Houses by
Numbers", "Nodes as Gates" or others.
AlaintStalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zrich 03:12 UTC
[green, small, italic]
That whereby the rivers and seas are able to receive the homage
and tribute of all the valley streams, is their skill in being
lower than they -- it is thus that they are the kings of them
all. So it is that the sage, wishing to be above men, puts
himself by his words below them, and wishing to be before them,
places his person behind them. In this way though he has his
place above them, men do not feel his weight, nor though he has
his place before them, do they feel it an injury to them.
Therefore all in the world delight to exalt him and do not weary
of him. Because he does not strive, no one finds it possible
to strive with him. -- Tao Te Ching
Signs by Elements
The four elements go in a cycle. Fire goes up
from earth into air -- that is also spring.
Air is the cloud that balances in the air,
receives water from the sea and lets it rain
down again, receives and emits lightning (fire)
from and to the ground (earth) -- summer. Water
falls and flows down as rain and rivers to the
ground and into the sea -- autumn. The earth is
usually resting calmly -- winter -- steadily
releasing water in the mountains and eruptively
creating fire from volcanoes and burning plants.
Abstractly, fire that Aristotle viewed as dry
and hot becomes wet (air), then cold (water),
dry again (earth) and finally hot (fire) again.
Aristotle had the seasons assigned differently
than me, but my approach as a physicist is to
come from observation of people and nature
again, and to find the best fit, hopefully also
profiting from the insights that the world has
gained -- also through suffering -- during the
previous 2000 years in the age of Pisces.
Each of the three signs of each element is a stage
in a transition -- young to adult to old.
A fire starts burning wood (earth, Aries), then
steadily transforms wood into smoke (air, Leo),
ending its life mainly as smoke and imagination
(Sagittarius).
Air is a cloud that first emits lots of lightning
(fire, Gemini), then rain starts (balance between
fire and water, Libra), and finally rain alone is
equally distributed over everybody (Aquarius).
Water is first a spring that erupts up in the
mountains (earth, Cancer), mixes with other waters
into a stream (Scorpio) and finally flows into the
sea where it again evaporates (air, Pisces).
Earth is a tree that has beautiful flowers in the
sun (fire, Taurus), but also needs water from below
to feed it through its roots that keep it also from
falling down (water, Capricorn), both to be balanced
in the middle, adult earth sign -- Virgo.
Basic Opposites
Before I describe the elements, a dictionary of
the basic opposites is necessary.
Hot/cold corresponds to day/night, because during
the day it is warmer than during the night. Day/night
corresponds to light/dark (obviously), active/passive
and conscious/unconscious, because people are awake
during the day and sleep at night. The hot elements
either rise (fire) or are up (air), the cold ones
either flow down (water) or are below (earth).
Men were traditionally "on top" during sex, as well
as more active -- for the part of sex that is needed
for reproduction, the latter is even naturally so.
Hence hot/cold corresponds to male/female.
The female elements are heavier than the male ones,
thus hot/cold corresponds to light/heavy.
Dry/wet corresponds to hard/soft, brittle/malleable,
fine/coarse. The inside of many things is wetter than
the outside, hence dry/wet corresponds to out/in.
This has more profound consequences, to be exposed later.
All four elements transform from dry via a balance
between dry and wet to wet -- fire and water go from
earth to air, air and earth go from fire to water.
Hence dry/wet corresponds to young/old.
Before birth, the world is wet, soft and warm. Thus
the experience of the opposites hot/cold and dry/wet
(=soft/hard=in/out) is one of the first experiences
that a newborn child makes. This can surely be called
an elementary experience -- according to Aristotle,
elements are what one can touch.
The elements can also be opposed in another pair,
air+earth/fire+water, corresponding (obviously) to
rest/move, but also describing an independent and
additional property of anything that can be touched
-- the ability to rest or move -- also since both
sides contain dry+wet+hot+cold, thus are complete.
This is beautifully reflected in the I Ching, where
all elements appear both in resting and moving form:
fire: fire - thunder (lightning)
air: heaven - wind/wood (blow/grow)
water: lake - water (flowing river)
earth: mountain - earth (yielding)
Air
A cloud rests above in the sky, yet air is male,
hence active: The cloud must constantly communicate,
receives water from below through the power of the
sun (fire) and rains down water. Lightning goes from
one electical pole to another, either down from the
cloud, up to it or within it. In any case, lightning
re-balances electrical charge.
A cloud oversees the earth below it like no other
element -- air has an objective view on reality.
But one thing that air cannot not see well, is itself
(air is invisible). Pure logic (mathematics) cannot be
proven by logic alone (i.e. mathematically) to be free
of contradictions. In any logical construct of more
than trivial size, there are statements that can be
either true or false, but undecidable within the system.
Air can communicate and store information about the
other elements more objectively than any other element,
but it cannot replace them. "750nm wavelength" is not
the same as the experience of the color "red". A theory
of everthing would still not be the same as everything,
and it would not be provable that the theory would be
complete and free of contradictions. (This very text is
also prone to such critisism -- after all, it tries to
describe all four elements by words).
So there is communication, balance, overview,
objectivity -- but also problems with subjectivity
(self-reference) -- from a simple image (of a cloud)
that everybody can reproduce in their imagination
from the few words that are communicated in this text.
Aries
Any description of a star sign is incomplete.
I hope, however, to convey some of the richness
that lays within the elementary approach and
which -- with some practice -- is well within
reach for everybody.
Aries is a young fire, one that just starts to
burn and fights to grow up. There is lots of wood
(earth) to be transformed into smoke (air), yet.
Still, the importance of the air in "Air"-ies
is not to be underestimated -- fire needs both
matter and air to burn.
First earth. An newborn child only has a body (earth),
but no knowledge (air) yet. A kid argues based on
immedatiate reality -- "I am hungry", "I am cold",
ignoring larger scale connections. But the strive
is up into the air, towards more knowledge.
Air provides a more gentle angle. One needs to blow
strongly to turn embers into a flame. Once there is
a little flame, it has to be protected from too much
wind and gently guided by air towards more wood so
that it can grow.
Unlike for the older fire signs, Leo and Sagittarius,
the wound that is caused by the burning and hence
disappearing wood (earth, body) is not yet causing
much pain, only maybe some impulse to act.
So there is a fight up towards higher goals, insights
and knowledge (air), and a drive to protect the weak.
Aries-Pisces
A look at the origins of the gentleness of air
that guides the young flame in Aries...
Pisces, the old air sign, is the ocean that
contains all streams of the world that have flown
into it. So it contains the knowledge of all
individual strands of fate. Pisces is also the
third phase of water (ice-water-vapour), so by
evaporation, it clarifies (vapour is invisible)
and expands the knowledge about human nature.
It is this air that is creating, driving and
guiding the young flame towards new places where
new things need to be created. So, even though
Aries argues usually based on immediately
verifiable reality (earth), where he is heading
is a more subtle affair of which he is typically
not fully consciously aware -- how could he be,
he is far yet from understanding the complexity
of nature, almost a year away.
I Ching
The 64 hexagrams of the I Ching are composed
of yin and yang lines -- ':' and 'I' -- the
broken yin line is female, the unbroken yang
line is male.
The four seasons are assigned as follows (left
corresponds to up in usual horizontal notation):
:I spring
II summer
I: autumn
:: winter
This corresponds to the assignment spring-fire,
summer-air, autumn-water, earth-winter if the
first line is identified with dry/wet (yin=dry)
and the second line with hot/cold (yin=cold).
The four elements come in both yin and yang forms,
resting and moving:
I:I fire, light-giving, 2nd daughter -- resting fire
::I thunder, inciting/movement, 1st son -- moving fire
III heaven, strong, father -- resting air
II: wind/wood, penetrating, 1st daughter -- moving air
:II lake/mist, joyful, 3rd daughter -- resting water
:I: water, dangerous, 2nd son -- moving water
I:: mountain, resting, 3rd son -- resting earth
::: earth, devoted/yielding, mother -- moving earth
Removing the differing line in each pair (move=yin)
yields again the above relation between seasons and
elements (only almost: ':I' emerges twice, for fire
and water, only if the order of lines is switched
for water to 'I:' is the fit perfect).
The hexagrams let the 8 elements meet in 64 ways,
with one above and one below.
Reflection
Language is a cultural mirror of nature. What is
close in language, is often also close in nature.
The meaning of any thing is maybe best understood
by the structure of all associations to its word.
Houses by Numbers
An astrological house is defined by two words,
the word "house" and its number. The idea is
now that the meaning of a particular house is
defined mainly by the structure of associations
to these two words. My ignorance of the meanings
of houses -- not being a professional astrologer
I hardly know the birth time of anybody I know
in person -- allows me maybe best to explore
this idea with minimal bias.
Different languages have different words for an
astrological house (e.g. field, templum), but it
is always a confined space.
The numbers 1 to 4 represent the elements in the
order fire-air-water-earth. The number 5 stands
for what transforms them into each other. Then
6-9 stand for the four possible transitions:
air: fire-air-water = 1+2+3 = 6
fire: earth-fire-air = 4+1+2 = 7
earth: fire-earth-water = 1+4+3 = 8
water: earth-water-air = 4+3+2 = 9
Houses are confined spaces. Of the four elements,
only earth is confined, but air is not, and fire
and water are only little confined. The axes of
AC/DC and MC/IC form a cross, an abstract symbol
for a tree and having 4 arms, thus related to earth.
Hence houses are earthy.
The 4th house cusp (IC) is at the root of the tree,
thus related to Capricorn, because it is the last
phase in the transition fire-earth-water, symbolized
by the roots of a tree that feed it with water and
keep it from falling down.
The 10th house cusp (MC), in turn, represents the
fruits of the tree, and is hence related to Taurus,
the young earth sign, made mainly of fire, symbolizing
the leaves, flowers and fruits that grow with the
energy of the sun (fire). And there is a relation
to the 10th planet, Pluto.
So the axis 4/10 is related to roots (parents and
ancestors) and the fruits (children) emerging from
them and to fate.
MC and IC rest (air and earth), AC and DC move
(fire and water). Thus the axis MC/IC is about
what is essentially preserved from previous
generations (actively for the MC and passively
for the IC), the axis AC/DC is what can be
changed by the individual (actively for the AC
and passively for the DC).
Divisions
The zodiac can be divided by various numbers that
relate to the symbolism of the number.
1 - life, year
2 - create/consolidate (plants in nature)
3 - ages (young/adult/old), subdivided into the four elements (fire-earth-air-water)
4 - seasons (fire-air-water-earth), subdivided into characters (cardinal/fixed/mutable)
6 - sex (male/female)
12 - signs
Adults are essentially defined by their fertility, the
ability to create offspring, deepening the relation of
the number 3 to fate.
Dry elements come before wet ones. Hence Aries+Taurus
are younger children than Gemini+Cancer, Leo+Virgo are
younger adults than Libra+Scorpio, Sagittarius+Capricorn
are younger old people than Aquarius+Pisces.
Sex is related to 6 and hence to the transformation of
air -- and thus maybe most strongly to Libra (middle,
adult, balancing air sign) -- and to Jupiter.
A day can also be divided into parts:
2 - create/consolidate (day/night)
4 - morning-afternoon-evening-night and thus
sunrise-noon-sunset-midnight (AC-MC-DC-IC)
Aspects and Planets
1 - conjunction/sun
The ideas and goals of the involved planets have to
be fused into a single entity.
2 - opposition/moon
The moon reflects the light of the sun -- reflection
turns 1 into 2. The conscious light of the sun --
the conscious self -- is confronted with unconscious,
maybe more archaic parts of itself, that are often
projected outside while the conflict is maybe rather
an internal one (1-fire is dry, hence external, but
2-air is wet, hence internal).
3 - trine/Venus
The goddess of love spreads beauty and harmony and can
thus afford to remain externally passive (3-water is wet,
internal, fine) and let others act to please her.
4 - square/Mars
The god of war creates conflict, moves and makes changes
in the outside world (4-earth is dry, external, rough).
5 - quintile/Mercury
6 - sextile/Jupiter
Planets and Relations
Different planets are associated with different
relationships. Mars and Venus are associated with
lovers, sun and moon with father and mother, etc.
This rises the question whether in the relation
between two people, different planets would play
a stronger role than others -- depending on the
exact type of their relation.
For example, the question is whether the mother's
moon would more strongly influence her relation
to her child than her other planets. Conversely,
the question is also whether the moon of a child
would more strongly influence the relation to
the mother than any other planet. Both questions
are difficult to answer with certainty, because
the aspects between mother's and child's planets
would likely skew the picture in most cases.
Also, one would expect the moon to play a similar
role if one person is not an actual mother, but
in a maternal role, like a teacher, boss, aunt.
Here are planets and proposed relations:
sun: as/towards father
moon: as/towards mother
Venus: as/towards man
Mars: as/towards woman
Mercury: as/towards sibling
Jupiter: as/towards grandfather
Saturn: as/towards grandmother
Sun and moon cross one generation, Jupiter and
Saturn two, Venus, Mars and Mercury none. Mars
and Venus also specifically apply to male/female
lovers and friends. Mercury applies also to
rivals for the same person or thing (just like
siblings are rivals for the love of the parents).
Depending on the situation, the same two people
might be lovers, rivals or teacher/pupil, etc.,
which would lead to different behaviour. That such
changed behaviour occurs, is a common experience,
although it remains open in which way exactly.
Relations between grandmother or grandfather and
grandchildren are often more relaxed than from any
of them to their children resp. parents. From the
above that would be somewhat understandable, since
grandfather and grandchild would preceive their
son/father in the same way (the sun sign) and the
same could be said about grandmother, grandchild
and their perception of their daughter/mother.
The common "issue" would likely create a bond.
Lunar Nodes
The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
come back as a cow in my next life?
Man: No, one does not come back as something that
one has been before.
There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
then again feed young cows. That is why what can
grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
and house of the northern node.
Some analytical attempts and why they appear not
to reveal much about the nodes themselves:
The lunar nodes are the two spots where the lunar
path meets the path of the sun and also roughly of
most other planets. Thus the nodes are lunar. Also
the nodes are places where two things meet, hence
they are about the numbers 1 and 2. At birth, the
unit of mother and child becomes two individuals.
For the child, that sudden experience of opposites
(soft/hard, wet/dry, hot/cold, in/out, me/world)
becomes deeply connected to the mother. Hence the
connection between 2 and moon.
But does the above really say much about the nodes?
Is not more so that it says some things about moon,
mother, the number 2, the 2nd house, etc.? There
are similar ways in which the nodes can be connected
to the father: The child recognizes in the father
a part of him-/herself that was there before birth
and is now still there. That restores some hopes
into a continuity (unity, 1) of the world, into a
reliable unity between 2 people. Or take the cow and
the grass above -- the energy that makes that cycle
work is ultimately the light of the sun that drives
the photosynthesis in the grass. But does that not
again rather say something about father, sun, the
numbers 1 and 2 than about the nodes?
The nodes are seen as mouth and anus of a celestial
dragon that consists of 8 parts. The symbolism of
the number 8 leads to the transformation of earth
(fire-earth-water: 1+4+3=8), to Uranus, the symbol
for infinity, which ressembles a sketch of a fish,
which leads to the two perpendicular fish in the
constellation of Pisces, forming an 8x8 matrix
(mother), related to chess and the I Ching etc.
But does that mean that nodes are only about the
transformation of the element earth? Not really,
because people also drink (water), breathe (air)
and food contains energy (fire). And they do not
only produce earth, but also speak (air) etc.
In essence, the nodes are no things, they do not
have any attributes. Twisting things around --
like a Moebius tape -- anything that comes into
contact with the nodes is transformed and related
in interesting and deep ways to other things.
Web Links
www.aat-home.net
Homepage of the alt.astrology.tropical newsgroup.
Contains many useful links related to astrology.
www.astro.com
The international website for Astrology. Get your Personal
Daily Horoscope and a wide selection of free horoscopes!
Lots of stuff related to astrology, including:
Free high-precision horoscope service with practically
all imaginable options; arguably the best computer
generated horoscope interpretations, including
interpretation texts by Liz Greene and Robert Hand;
various texts about deeper astrological topics,
including by the above authors; fast high-precision
open source software for astrological and astronomical
calculations (Swiss Ephemeris); part of the works by
Thomas Ring (in German); and more.
"Book of Changes" posts to alt.astrology.tropical
Direct query for all posts that contain "Book of Changes"
in their subject line, sorted by date (newest posts listed
on top). Some posts provide additional insights or expose
some principles in more detail than here.
people.freenet.de/soleil7
Homepage by Werner Held. Texts about the relation
between the psyche and matter and more, drawing from
a wide array of fields, ranging from quantum physics
to parapsychology (in German).
www.exactphilosophy.net
My site. Besides the fundamental ideas presented in
this text here, I also present hypotheses about why
or how astrology might "work". It also contains my
CV and my photo (I am a physicist with a PhD and have
worked a few years at the IBM Zrich Research Lab in
Rschlikon (Switzerland)).
WARNING: My site and especially the main document
there go considerably deeper and broader than this
book, approach it with care or stay here. Info for
professional astrologers: It was written during the
previous Saturn-Pluto opposition, which transited at a
square to my natal (mid 60's) Uranus-Pluto conjunct
in the middle of Virgo. If you are still interested,
here is the link...
[menu in left frame]
[english | deutsch]
Willkommen
Buch der Wandlungen
- Zeichen durch Elemente
-- Grundgegenstze
-- Luft
-- Widder
-- Widder-Fische
- Spiegelung
- Huser durch Nummern
Web Links
[book in right frame]
Willkommen zu meinem "Buch der Wandlungen"
Dieses Buch prsentiert eine neue Sicht auf die Westliche
tropische Astrologie, eine einfache und analytische
Sichtweise. Es verbindet zurck zu den philosophischen
Sichten des antiken Griechenlands und des antiken China,
welche sehr konkret waren -- da sie ber Dinge wie Flsse,
Bume, Wolken, Berge, usw. sprachen -- aber gleichzeitig
auch sehr abstrakt waren -- sie teilten die Welt in warm/kalt,
trocken/feucht, hell/dunkel, Yin/Yang, usw.
Obwohl dieser Text nicht direkt fr Anfnger gedacht ist,
kann er ntzlich sein fr einen Einblick in die Haupt-
eigenschaften der zwölf Sternzeichen, falls er zusammen
mit einem anderen einfhrenden Text (oder Texten) gelesen
wird. Aber, trotz seiner Einfachheit, ist der Zugang, der
hier prsentiert wird, auch inhaltlich erstaunlich reich
und tief, was ihn zu einem schönen Werkzeug macht fr
professionelle Astrologen, um viele Dinge aus einem neuen,
strukturierteren Blickwinkel zu erkunden.
Schliesslich macht die einfache Struktur des neuen Zugangs
ihn auch geeignet ist fr formale und quantitative
wissenschaftliche berprfungen der Astrologie.
Dieses Buch ist im Moment am Entstehen durch Posts zur
Newsgroup alt.astrology.tropical, um danach jeweils hier
eingefgt zu werden (und auf Deutsch bersetzt). Falls
Sie neu in der Astrologie sind, sind vielleicht auch die
Links am Ende dieser Seite hilfreich.
Das Folgende ist vielleicht nicht am Besten zugnglich
durch den Versuch, die Dinge zu schnell zu ergreifen,
sondern eher durch Loslassen, sich Vorstellen der Bume,
Berge, Feuer, Huser, usw. und die Dinge im Geist wachsen
lassen -- sehr im Stil des Tao Te King...
Buch der Wandlungen
Hallo allerseits,
Mit diesem Artikel, möchte ich ein Buch zu schreiben beginnen.
Erste konkrete Artikel werden meine Sicht der Sternzeichen
als Wandlungen zwischen Elementen beschreiben, konkret zuerst
Widder als ein Feuer, das zu brennen beginnt.
Diese Sicht basiert auf Aristoteles' Sicht der Welt als
zusammengesetzt aus zwei Gegensatzpaaren -- warm/kalt und
trocken/feucht -- die sich auf vier Arten zusammensetzen
lassen -- Feuer/Luft/Wasser/Erde und ineinander umgewandelt
werden können. Dies ist auch sehr hnlich wie im "I Ging",
dem Chinesischen Buch der Wandlungen, wo sich 8 "Elemente"
ineinander wandeln.
Weitere Kapitel werden folgen, z.B. vielleicht "Huser
durch Nummern", "Knoten als Tore" oder Andere.
AlaintStalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
* 1966-08-07 04:12 Zrich 03:12 UTC
That whereby the rivers and seas are able to receive the homage
and tribute of all the valley streams, is their skill in being
lower than they -- it is thus that they are the kings of them
all. So it is that the sage, wishing to be above men, puts
himself by his words below them, and wishing to be before them,
places his person behind them. In this way though he has his
place above them, men do not feel his weight, nor though he has
his place before them, do they feel it an injury to them.
Therefore all in the world delight to exalt him and do not weary
of him. Because he does not strive, no one finds it possible
to strive with him. -- Tao Te Ching
Zeichen durch Elemente
Die vier Elemente gehen in einem Kreis. Feuer geht hoch
von der Erde in die Luft -- dies ist auch Frhling.
Luft ist die Wolke, die in der Luft balanciert, die
Wasser vom Meer erhlt und es als Regen wieder runter
lsst, die Blitze aufnimmt und aussendet (Feuer), vom
und zum Boden (Erde) -- Sommer. Wasser fllt und fliesst
herunter als Regen und Flsse zur Erde und in das Meer
-- Herbst. Die Erde verweilt meist ruhig -- Winter --
lsst kontinuierlich Wasser in den Bergen los und
erzeugt plötzlich Feuer aus Vulkanen und brennenden
Pflanzen.
Abstrakt wird Feuer, das Aristoteles als trocken und
heiss sah, feucht (Luft), dann kalt (Wasser), wieder
trocken (Erde) und endlich wieder heiss (Feuer).
Aristoteles hatte die Jahreszeiten in anderer Reihenfolge
als ich zugeordnet, aber mein Zugang als Physiker ist
wieder auf direkte Beobachtung von Leuten und der Natur
zurckzukommen, und so das zu finden, was am Besten passt,
dabei hoffentlich auch profitierend von den Einsichten,
die die Welt seither gewonnen hat -- auch durch Leiden
-- whrend den letzten 2000 Jahren im Fischezeitalter.
Jedes der drei Sternzeichen zu jedem Element ist eine
Phase in einem bergang -- jung zu erwachsen zu alt.
Ein Feuer beginnt Holz (Erde, Widder) zu verbrennen,
dann verwandelt es stetig Holz in Rauch (Luft, Löwe)
und endet sein Leben meist als Rauch und Vorstellung
(Schtze).
Luft ist eine Wolke, die erst viele Blitze aussendet
(Feuer, Zwillinge), dann kommt der Regen (Gleichgewicht
von Feuer und Wasser, Waage), und schliesslich fllt nur
noch Regen gleichmssig verteilt ber Jeden (Wassermann).
Wasser ist erst eine Quelle, die in den Bergen entspringt
(Erde, Krebs), mischt sich dann mit anderen Wassern zu
einem Strom (Skorpion) und fliesst schliesslich ins Meer,
von wo es wieder verdampft (Luft, Fische).
Erde ist ein Baum, der schöne Blten in der Sonne hat
(Feuer, Stier), aber auch Wasser von unten benötigt,
die ihn durch seine Wurzeln ernhren, die ihn auch am
Umfallen hindern (Wasser, Steinbock), beides auszugleichen
durch das mittlere, erwachsene Erdzeichen -- Jungfrau.
Grundgegenstze
Bevor ich die Elemente beschreibe, ist ein Wörterbuch der
Grundgegenstze notwendig.
Heiss/kalt entspricht Tag/Nacht, weil es tagsber wrmer ist
als nachts. Tag/Nacht entspricht hell/dunkel (offensichtlich),
aktiv/passiv und bewusst/unbewusst, weil Leute tagsber wach
sind und nachts schlafen. Die heissen Elemente steigen (Feuer)
oder sind oben (Luft), die Kalten fliessen entweder runter
(Wasser) oder sind unten (Erde).
Mnner waren traditionell "oben" beim Sex, und aktiver --
fr den Teil des Sex, der fr die Fortpflanzung notwendig ist,
ist Letzteres sogar natrlicherweise so. Daher entspricht
heiss/kalt mnnlich/weiblich.
Trocken/feucht entspricht hart/weich, brchig/biegsam,
fein/grob. Das Innere von vielen Dingen ist feuchter als
das ussere, also entspricht trocken/feucht aussen/innen.
Dies hat tiefergreifende Konsequenzen, fr spter.
Vor der Geburt ist die Welt feucht, weich und warm. Daher
ist die Erfahrung der Gegenstze warm/kalt und trocken/feucht
(=weich/hart=aussen/innen) eine der ersten Erfahrungen, die
ein neugeborenes Kind macht. Dies kann sicher ein elementares
Erlebnis genannt werden -- gemss Aristoteles sind Elemente,
was sich berhren lsst.
Luft
Eine Wolke schwebt oben in der Luft, aber Luft ist mnnlich,
also aktiv: Die Wolke muss also konstant kommunizieren, sie
erhlt Wasser von Unten durch die Kraft der Sonne (Feuer)
und regnet Wasser runter. Blitze gehen von einem Pol zum
Anderen, entweder runter von der Wolke, rauf zu ihr oder
innerhalb von ihr. In jedem Fall gleichen Blitze
elektrische Ladung wieder aus.
Eine Wolke bersieht die Erde unter ihr wie kein anderes
Element -- Luft hat eine objektive Sicht der Realitt.
Aber eine Sache, die Luft kaum sehen kann, ist sie selbst
(Luft ist unsichtbar). Reine Logik (Mathematik) kann nicht
durch Logik alleine (d.h. mathematisch) als widerspruchsfrei
bewiesen werden. In jeder logischen Konstruktion von
nicht-trivialer Grösse, gibt es Aussagen, die entweder
wahr oder falsch sein können, sich aber innerhalb des
Systems nicht entscheiden lassen.
Luft kann Information kommunizieren und speichern wie kein
anderes Element, aber sie kann sie nicht ersetzen. "750nm
Wellenlnge" ist nicht dasselbe wie die Erfahrung der
Farbe "rot". Eine Theorie von Allem wre dennoch nicht
dasselbe wie alles, und es wre nicht beweisbar, dass die
Theorie vollstndig und frei von Widersprchen wre.
(Dieser Text hier ist auch exponiert in dieser Hinsicht
-- schliesslich versucht er alle vier Elemente durch
Worte zu beschreiben).
Hier ist also Kommunikation, Balance, bersicht,
Objektivitt -- aber auch Probleme mit Subjektivitt
(Selbstbezug) -- aus einem simplen Bild (einer Wolke),
das Jeder und Jede in der Vorstellung aus den paar
Worten, die in diesen Text kommuniziert wurden,
erzeugen kann.
Widder
Jede Beschreibung eines Sternzeichens ist unvollstndig.
Ich hoffe, jedoch, dass ich einen Teil des Reichtums
vermitteln kann, der im elementaren Zugang liegt und
der -- mit etwas bung -- fr Jeden und Jede gut
erreichbar ist.
Widder ist ein junges Feuer, eines, das gerade zu brennen
begonnen hat und um das Wachsen kmpft. Es hat viel Holz
(Erde), das noch in Rauch (Luft) umgewandelt werden wird.
Trotzdem sollte die Bedeutung der Luft im Widder (engl.
"Aries", ausgesprochen "Air"-ies, "Air" = Luft) nicht
unterschtzt werden -- Feuer benötigt sowohl festes
Material als auch Luft zum Brennen.
Zuerst Erde. Ein neugeborenes Kind hat einen Körper
(Erde), aber noch kein Wissen (Luft). Ein Kind
argumentiert basierend auf unmittelbarer Realitt
-- "Ich bin hungrig", "Ich habe kalt", ignoriert
dabei grössere Zusammenhnge. Doch der Drang ist
nach oben in die Luft, zu mehr Wissen und Können.
Luft liefert einen sanfteren Blickwinkel. Man muss
stark blasen um Glut in eine Flamme zu verwandeln.
Sobald es eine kleine Flamme hat, muss man sie vor
zu viel Wind schtzen und sie sanft zu mehr Holz
fhren, damit sie wachsen kann.
Anders als fr die lteren Feuerzeichen, Löwe und
Schtze, verursacht die Wunde, die durch den Brand
und so durch das verschwindende Holz (Erde, Körper)
entsteht noch keine grossen Schmerzen, nur vielleicht
der Impuls zu handeln.
So gibt es einen Kampf zu höheren Zielen, Einsichten
und Wissen (Luft) und einen Drang, die Schwcheren zu
schtzen.
Widder-Fische
Ein Blick auf die Quelle der Sanftheit der Luft,
die die junge Flamme des Widders leitet...
Fische, das alte Wasserzeichen, ist der Ozean, der alle
Ströme und Flsse der Welt enthlt, die in ihn gemndet
haben. Daher enthlt er das Wissen aller individueller
Schicksalsfden. Fische sind auch die dritte Phase des
Wassers (Eis-Wasser-Dampf), deshalb, durch Verdampfen,
wird vieles klarer (Dampf ist unsichtbar) und erweitert
das Wissen ber die menschliche Natur.
Es ist diese Luft, die die junge Flamme des Widders
erzeugt, treibt und zu neuen Orten fhrt, wo Neues
erzeugt werden muss. Daher ist wohin der Widder strebt,
auch wenn er typischerweise aufgrund unmittelbarer Realitt
(Erde) argumentiert, eine subtilere Sache, derer er sich
typischerweise nicht bewusst ist -- wie könnte er auch,
er ist noch weit entfernt davon, die Komplexitt der
Natur zu verstehen, fast ein Jahr entfernt.
Spiegelung
Sprache ist ein kultureller Spiegel der Natur. Was in
der Sprache nah ist, ist oft auch nahe in der Natur.
Die Bedeutung eines Dings ist vielleicht am Besten
verstndlich durch die Struktur aller Assoziationen
zu seinem Wort.
Huser durch Nummern
Ein astrologisches Haus ist definiert durch zwei Worte,
das Wort "Haus" und seine Nummer. Die Idee ist jetzt,
dass die Bedeutung eines bestimmten Hauses massgeblich
durch die Struktur der Assoziationen zu diesen beiden
Worten definiert ist. Mein Unwissen um die Bedeutung
der Huser -- ich bin kein professioneller Astrologe,
kenne kaum von jemandem, den/die ich persönlich kenne,
die Geburtszeit -- erlaubt mir vielleicht am Besten
diese Idee unbefangen zu erkunden.
Verschiedene Sprachen haben verschiedene Worte fr ein
astrologisches Haus (z.B. Feld, Templum), aber es ist
immer ein beschrnkter Raumteil.
Die Nummern 1 bis 4 reprsentieren die Elemente in
der Reihenfolge Feuer-Luft-Wasser-Erde. Die Nummer
5 steht fr das, was sie ineinander umwandelt. Dann
stehen 6-9 fr die möglichen Umwandlungen:
Luft: Feuer-Luft-Wasser = 1+2+3 = 6
Feuer: Erde-Feuer-Luft = 4+1+2 = 7
Erde: Feuer-Erde-Wasser = 1+4+3 = 8
Wasser: Erde-Wasser-Luft = 4+3+2 = 9
Web Links
www.aat-home.net
Webseite der Newsgruppe alt.astrology.tropcial. Enthlt
viele ntzliche Links (vorwiegend rein englischsprachige).
www.astro.com
Die internationale Homepage fr Astrologie. Mit dem Persönlichen
Tages-Horoskop und grosser Horoskop-Auswahl (gratis!).
Vieles zur und um die Astrologie, unter Anderem:
Gratis online Horoskopservice mit hoher Przision und praktisch
allen vorstellbaren Optionen; vertretbar die besten computer-
generierten Horoskopinterpretationen, u.a. mit Interpretations-
texten von Liz Greene und Robert Hand; verschiedene Texte ber
tiefere astrologische Themen, auch von obigen Autoren;
schnelle, przise Open Source Software fr astrologische und
astronomische Berechnungen (Swiss Ephemeris); Teile des Werks
von Thomas Ring; und mehr.
"Book of Changes" Newsartikel auf alt.astrology.tropical
Direkte Suche nach allen Newsartikeln, die "Book of Changes"
(Buch der Wandlungen) in ihrer Titelzeile enthalten, sortiert
nach Datum (neueste Artikel zuoberst). Einige Artikel liefern
zustzliche Einsichten oder erklren einige Prinzipien
detaillierter (auf Englisch).
people.freenet.de/soleil7
Webseite von Werner Held. Texte ber die Beziehung zwischen
Psyche und Materie und mehr; schöpft aus verschiedenen
Quellen, von Quantenphysik bis Parapsychologie.
www.exactphilosophy.net
Meine Webseite. Neben den fundamentalen Ideen hier, prsentiere
ich dort auch Hypothesen darber, wie Astrologie "funktionieren"
könnte. Sie enthlt auch meinen Lebenslauf und ein Photo von mir
(Ich bin Physiker und habe einige Jahre am IBM Forschungslabor
in Rschlikon bei Zrich (Schweiz) gearbeitet).
WARNUNG: Meine Webseite und mein Hauptdokument dort
gehen betrchtlich tiefer als dieses Buch hier; Bitte nhern Sie
sich vorsichtig, oder bleiben Sie hier. Information fr professionelle
Astrologen: Das Hauptdokument wurde whrend der vergangenen
Saturn-Pluto Opposition geschrieben, die im Quadrat zu meiner
gebrtigen (Mitte 60er) Uranus-Pluto Konjunktion in der Mitte
der Jungfrau vorbeizog. Falls Sie immer noch interessiert sind,
hier ist der Link...
Curriculum Vitae
1966 Born in Zrich, Switzerland.
1981-85 Mathematisch-Naturwissenschaftliches Gymnasium Rmibhl
in Zrich. Matura.
1988 Practical at Credit Suisse in Zrich (6 weeks).
1988-90 Several practicals at the IBM Zrich Research Laboratory
in Rschlikon (20 weeks total).
1985-90 Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zrich (ETHZ).
Diploma in experimental physicstfrom the faculty of Mathematics
and Physics (IXB). Diploma thesis: "Optical Force Sensing in
Scanning Tunneling Microscopy", done at IBM Rschlikon in the
group of Urs Drig, with H. R. Ott as diploma professor.
1991-95 IBM Rschlikon. PhD thesis: "Mechanics and Electronics on the
Atomic Scale: A Study using Scanning Probe Methods" in the group
of Urs Drig, with Louis Schlapbach from University of Fribourg,
Switzerland, as PhD professor.
1995-97 Postdoc at McGill University in Montreal, Canada, in the group of
Peter Grtter, with a grant from the Swiss National Science
Foundation (first year). Same topic as PhD thesis. For more
information on the research I was involved in between 1990 and
1997, see the McGill web page of 1996 or my publications.
1997-2004 iT_SEC in Zrich (80% position), software development for smart
card based securitytsolutions. Fundamental research during part
of the rest of my time.
2004-today ...
Scanning Probe Microscopy Publications
As usual in science, I have contributed some work to all of the publications
that mention me as one of the authors, but not necessarily much to the actual
writing and typing. The ones that I essentially wrote myself are, of course,
[1] and [6], but also [4] and [5], although their contents came about through
close collaboration with Urs Drig, who also had the original idea to use
an oscillating string as atforce sensor. On the other hand, there are parts
of some publications about which I understand very little.
I left Canada at the beginning of May 1997, shortly before the guys at McGill
succeeded in making the atomically defined force measurement experiment on
which the PRL [14] and both [16] and [17] are based. I was no longer involved
at that time.
Publications
[1] A. Stalder.
Optical Force Sensing in Scanning Tunneling Microscopy.
Diploma thesis in experimental physics. ETH Zrich (1990).
[2] U. Drig, O. Zger and A. Stalder.
Interaction Force Detection in Scanning Probe Microscopy: Methods and Applications.
J. Appl. Phys. 72, 1778 (1992).
[3] A. Stalder and U. Drig.
Ultrahigh Vacuum Compatible Cooling and Vibration Isolation Stage.
Rev. Sci. Instrum. 64, 3644 (1993).
[4] A. Stalder and U. Drig.
Oscillating String as a Force Sensor in Scanning Force Microscopy.
NATO ASI Series E: Applied Sciences 286, 69 (1995).
[5] A. Stalder and U. Drig.
Nanoguitar: Oscillating String as Force Sensor.
Rev. Sci. Instrum. 66, 3576 (1995). [pdf]
[6] A. Stalder.
Mechanics and Electronics on the Atomic Scale: A Study using Scanning Probe Methods.
PhD thesis of the University of Fribourg (Switzerland) 1108 (1995).
[7] A. Stalder and U. Drig.
Study of Plastic Flow in Ultra-small Au Contacts.
J. Vac. Sci. Technol. B14, 1259 (1996).
[8] U. Drig and A. Stalder.
Adhesion on the Nanometer Scale.
NATO ASI Series E: Applied Sciences 311, 299 (1996).
[9] A. Stalder and U. Drig.
Study of Yielding Mechanics in Nanometer-sized Au Contacts.
Appl. Phys. Lett. 68, 637 (1996).
[10] U. Drig and A. Stalder.
Adhesion on the Nanometer Scale.
NATO ASI Series E: Applied Sciences 330 (1997).
[11] U. Drig, L. Novotny, B. Michel and A. Stalder.
Logarithmic Currrent-to-voltage Converter for Local Probe Microscopy.
Rev. Sci. Instrum. 68, 3814 (1997).
[12] A. Stalder and U. Drig.
Mechanics on the Nanometer Scale: Experimental Study of Au Nanowires.
Probe Microscopy 1, 135 (1998).
[13] U. Drig and A. Stalder.
Metal Adhesion on the Nanometer Scale.
Mittal Festschrift, 109 (1998).
[14] G. Cross, A. Schirmeisen, A. Stalder, P. Grtter, M. Tschudy and U. Drig.
Adhesion Interaction between Atomically Defined Tip and Sample.
Phys. Rev. Lett. 80, 4685 (1998).
[15] U. Drig, A. Stalder and H. Steinauer.
Apparatus and Method for Controlling a Mechanical Oscillator.
United States Patent 5966053 (1999).
[16] A. Schirmeisen, G. Cross, A. Stalder, P. Grtter and U. Drig.
Metallic Adhesion and Tunneling at the Atomic Scale.
New Journal of Physics 2, 29 (2000).
Feedback 2003
to "A few new discoveries in physics" by AlaintStalder
Feedback is reproduced with explicit permission by the respective authors.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jagcaziii@aoliii.com
Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003
Subject: about a few new discoveries in physics
twins would be much better than lovers for the experiments you propose.
-someone who knows something about
everything, nothing about anything.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jagcaziii@aoliii.com
Date: Fre Jun 20, 2003
Subject: Re: about a few new discoveries in physics
Yes, by all means, feel free to post my feedback, while I'm at it I'd also
like to share this journal entry of mine I was compelled to write two days
before reading your paper. I thought it was an interesting cooincidence, as
it sort of follows your theme. Of course It is much more philisophical than
scientific in nature, but still might be an interesting quick read for you,
and can be posted if you feel appropriate.
There was an accident. A great explosion. What emerged was this universe,
and so, my view of the universe is so different, so completely localized and
isolated from your perspective, that for a cosmic blink of an eye, I forgot
that we share the same mind. I forgot that I was at the center of it all,
and that you too, being the same as me, were also at the center. As my mind
became fragmented I became lost inside a world of my own creation. Some
things just didn't add up. I was broken, all my pieces adrift on a vast
river of chaos, separated by unimaginable distances. Little by little,
things started to come back to me. The fragments started to slow down and
come back together. I can almost remember my name now. For now, I call
myself the sum total of all the consciousness in this universe. My fragments
have names too, like Eve, Wolf, Rabbit and Jesus. I must travel upstream
against the river chaos back to the land of order. DNA will be my mighty
vessel against the raging waters of entropy. DNA will help my fragments to
not forget what they are. With every day I get closer to returning to Eden.
I guess now I truly have knowledge of good and evil.
-John D. Atchasoniii
jagcaziii@aoliii.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi everybody,
I hope that almost everybody interested in the mysteries
of life will find at least a few interesting things in
what is referenced below... (ranging from physics to
philosophy, psychology, and especially astrology).
Since it was all written by one of the very few people in this
world who have a state-of-the-art knowledge of both science
*and* astrology, the documents below provide a unique modern
perspective at the mysteries of the world, which differs in
many subtle ways from current views in either branch.
Enjoy,
Hermes (hermes@exactphilosophy.net)
--
Abstract
A new physical effect is described. Human brains are
emotionally interconnected. The connection is directional
with spin 1 symmetry and can be felt across global distances
and through the earth. The exact physical nature of the
effect remains unknown. Selective sensing of virtual photons,
i.e. of electro- or magnetostatic forces, might be part
of a future theoretical explanation.
Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given. It is
also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until
today and continue to influence our fates by means of
collective emotional feedback.
The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
ancient greek philosophy. There are two main discoveries.
Meanings associated with the star sign, different inner
planets were in at birth time, influence how one relates to
different classes of people. The meanings associated with
star signs themselves derive from different mixtures of the
four classical elements, more specifically, from meanings
associated with transitions from one element to another. The
discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
quantitatively.
Finally, some fundamental scientific and philosophical
problems are discussed in light of the new discoveries.
Table of Contents (29 pages)
About ............................................. 1
Abstract .......................................... 1
1 A New Physical Effect ........................... 1
1.1 The Experimental Facts ........................ 1
1.2 Analysis of the Facts ......................... 1
1.3 Gedankenexperiment ............................ 2
1.4 Experimental Challenges ....................... 2
1.5 Hypothetical Consequences ..................... 3
2 Elementary Astrology ............................ 3
2.1 The Planets ................................... 3
2.2 The Star Signs ................................ 4
2.3 Fire (Aries/Leo/Sagittarius) .................. 5
2.4 Water (Cancer/Scorpio/Pisces) ................. 5
2.5 Air (Gemini/Libra/Aquarius) ................... 5
2.6 Earth (Taurus/Virgo/Capricorn) ................ 6
3 Applied Astrology ............................... 6
3.1 The United States of America .................. 6
3.2 Numbers ....................................... 7
3.3 Planetary Aspects ............................. 7
3.4 Synastry and Transits ......................... 7
3.5 Men and Women ................................. 8
3.6 Dreams ........................................ 8
3.7 Astrological Houses ........................... 8
3.8 Astrological Inheritance ...................... 9
3.9 Star Signs in Detail .......................... 9
3.9.1 Aries ...................................... 10
3.9.2 Taurus ..................................... 10
3.9.3 Gemini ..................................... 11
3.9.4 Cancer ..................................... 11
3.9.5 Leo ........................................ 11
3.9.6 Virgo ...................................... 11
3.9.7 Libra ...................................... 12
3.9.8 Scorpio .................................... 12
3.9.9 Sagittarius ................................ 13
3.9.10 Capricorn ................................. 13
3.9.11 Aquarius .................................. 14
3.9.12 Pisces .................................... 14
3.10 Astrological Ages ........................... 14
3.11 The First Age ............................... 15
3.12 The Age of Aries ............................ 15
3.13 The Age of Pisces ........................... 15
3.14 The Age of Aquarius ......................... 16
3.15 Mythology in Life ........................... 18
Hermes ........................................... 19
4 Science and Philosophy ......................... 20
Acknowledgements ................................. 23
References ....................................... 23
Appendices ....................................... 23
A How it came about .............................. 23
B Proof of Discovery ............................. 23
C The Future ..................................... 29
Disclaimer ....................................... 29
Estimation (January 2002) ........................ 29
Link
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
Related Documents
Self-Review (of the above document, single page):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.zip
Book of Changes (philosophical approach to astrology):
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
Selection of about 50 usenet posts:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/
Titles of these selected posts:
Introductions (to "A few new discoveries in physics")
052 Very brief Description for Scientists
055 The Need for specific Experiments
075 Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
142 Step by Step
158 Virtual Particles
177 Schritt fuer Schritt [german/deutsch]
Physics
108 Quantum Mechanics and Relativity
110 Does the Brain think Quantum Mechanically?
120 Measurement in Science I
121 Measurement in Science II
125 Gedankenexperiment: Schrodinger's Cat, EPR and Decoherence
128 Decoherence and the Role of the Observer
Astrology
078 Motivation in Psychological Astrology
082 Counselor vs. Scientist
088 Does Sagittarius come short on the Internet?
095 Axes and Opposites
103 Astrological Ages I
104 Astrological Ages II
113 Scorpio and the Fates
161 Hexagram: As above, so below
174 Geographie und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
216 Hermes and Five
226 Themes and Experiment
228 Moon Nodes as Gates
236 Close Encounters
244 Opportunity in Greek Mythology
246 Usenet and Experiment
338 Angles and Elements
347 William James Sidis: Life and "Time Reversal"
348 Dry and Wet Law Systems
351 Archaic House Numbering
362 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects I
363 Discoveries of new Planets/Objects II
Philosophy
087 Opposites
114 Experts
123 Philosophy and Science
202 Knowledge and Perception
317 The East and Transformation
337 Aristotle's Elements per Season and Yin-Yang
345 Lost in Translation I - Random Meetings
354 The Music is between the Nodes
356 Lost in Translation II - TOE
Interdisciplinary
069 Twilight Zone
071 Meta Experiment
122 Crystal Clear
165 Butterfly Dream
178 The Art of Association
224 wei-chi
234 Quaoar and Physics
323 4 Gravitation
324 The Science of Association
334 Physik und Astrologie [german/deutsch]
All usenet posts:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/posts/
Main page:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
About the author:
I am a Swiss physicist and live in Zurich.
(this post is scheduled to be reposted yearly)
I have Chaos exactly conjunct the moon (to the minute), and also
conjunct the MC (a few degrees). If I look back at what I wrote
and posted in public during the recent years, that can certainly
look chaotic in public...
In greek mythology, it was Eurynome, the "Goddess of All Things"
that rose naked from Chaos. Robert Graves identifies her also with
Aphrodite, rising from sea foam where Cronos had thrown Ouranos'
genitals after cutting them off with a sickle (moon).
It appears that I share the Chaos/moon conjunction with Nietzsche
and Van Gogh (Arghhh! So far no syphillis and both ears connected):
http://astrologic.ru/english/WH24.htm
Some call it chaos, others inspiration; according to Robert Graves
in "The Greek Myths", the literal translation is "yawning", which
hints also at sunrise/sunset and thus, besides Venus, at Mercury,
fitting also well with the current time after the discovery of the
Roman(tic) Plutino now called Orcus.
Another interesting view at current times in that respect can also
be found in Bernadette Brady's February "Visual Astrology Newsletter"
in an article titled "The Moon, and the Gathering of the Kings",
with maybe only a reference to Lilith missing:
http://www.zyntara.com/Van_Feb2005/feb2005e.htm
To make Chaos complete: There is now a wrist watch that runs PalmOS,
available from Fossil (and Abacus); I have one now and my astrology
program Delphi runs fine on it; however, I cannot recommend it for
general use: The watch is very chunky and the screen is too small
and has too little contrast for reading a chart drawn with Delphi.
But, I guess, in a few years there will probably be wrist watches
with bright color screens suitable for display of an astrological
chart for the moment. Again, this is, in my view, an Orcus theme.
Until next year,
)o+
Introduction
Although learning the signs of the zodiac is usually the first
step when learning astrology, later on, it is maybe often so
that various other aspects of astrology get more attention
(planets, houses, aspects, transits, synastry, progressions,
relocation charts, and many, many more things). I think this
is a bit of a pity, because the zodiac itself is already very
rich in content and a lot older than many other astrological
concepts.
In this series, I would like to do two things: Bring back some
focus to the zodiac by presenting and discussing statements
about the signs from a broad range of sources, from internet
sources to serious books, from deep or wise insights to the
very basics, or include jokes or quotes, etc. Second, I would
like to look at all these statements from a very specific
perspective, namely from a model that views the signs of the
zodiac as transitions between the four elements Fire, Water,
Air and Earth.
It is important for me to stress that my main goal is not to
prove or defend any particular statements about how the signs
are supposed to be, but to show how the elementary model can
be used effectively to understand and analyze different points
of view about how the different signs are. The new approach
may seem a bit abstract at first, but I hope to show that it
is actually something quite simple that almost everybody can
apply, with fun and some interesting results, I hope.
Please give feedback; my analysis may be suitable for making
my way of thinking tangible, but I am myself not enough of an
astrologer (I am a physicist) to get things right. I lack the
experience and also the ability to be a good craftsman in that
respect. In other words, I am aiming more at a chiral role,
like Chiron was not the best warrior, but could still teach,
say, Achilles the art of war. Please give feedback!
Aries
First a quick exposure of the model: Aries is the first Fire
sign, an early fire that contains lots of wood (Earth) and
little smoke (Air) yet. It is that image of a young fire and
the associatated abstract properties that I intend to use to
explain several statements about Aries in what follows.
Since this is the first post in this series, I would like to
present a look at only two specific things about Aries, as not
to overload this post and to open up opportunities for reply.
This is from a tutorial by Molly Cliborne that I found at
http://www.north-node.com/tutorial/signs/aries.html
: Aries is argumentative and quick to anger, and will readily
: express frustrations, but generally does not hold a grudge
: for long.
Of course, a lot of the above can be understood the usual way
from knowing that Aries is male, cardinal and the first sign
of the zodiac (i.e. corresponding to a young male baby that
cries if he is cold or hungry, but smiles and forgets as soon
as he is warm and has a full belly).
But let me look at things the "elementary way": Aries is made
mainly of Earth, of immediate reality (the wood), and of little
Air, overview and reason. So, he judges what happens to him
very directly from what he can touch and see. That leads very
often to frustration, because he cannot forsee and understand
why these things are happening to him. He lacks the overview,
the reasonability to understand why he should "sacrifice" some
of his well being for a better overall situation. The picture
of the baby that is hungry and frustrated and cannot see yet
that the mother is hurrying the pram home and, just minutes
in the future, will be able to feed the baby.
Fortunately, as soon as reality changes for the better again,
Aries quickly forgets. This lack of memory can be both very
refreshing and a problem (because others may not forget so
quickly and readily), but let me not delve into this right now.
The second thing I would like to consider is something that is
specifically jewish. Why jewish, what does that have to do with
Aries ? Well, jewish religion and culture originated during the
Age of Aries, something like 4000 years ago (when Abraham, the
father of all Jews, left the city of Ur, as far as I understand).
So, anything jewish contains likely quite a bit of Aries.
What I have in mind, is the Golem. A Golem is creature that is
man-made out of clay (Earth) and given a simple mind (Air) so
that he can do some simple tasks in a household. From the two
elements (Earth and Air) that I put into parantheses, it is
already obvious what I have in mind, namely the Golem is quite
directly built the way that Aries is described in the model,
namely made mainly of Earth and little Air. Before I analyze
more, let me first give a little more background information
about Golems and the stories that surround them.
Maybe the most famous, but not oldest, Golem is the one that
Rabbi Loew made (according to the legend) in 1580 in Prague.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/rabbi_loeb.html
http://www.myczechrepublic.com/prague/history/prague_legends.html
http://www.jewishmag.com/26mag/golem/golem.htm
(or google...)
An important part of creating a Golem is usually the spoken
word, i.e. Air. Similarly the creation of a fire needs often
some air, embers usually do not develop into flames unless
one blows air at them, directs the flames at new pieces of
wood that can then take some fire. Let me quickly recapitulate
in the form of a table:
Earth - clay (the body of the Golem)
Fire - life (that what make the Golem move on his own)
Air - spoken word (what gave the Golem the above ability)
(and) - mind (the simple mind of the Golem)
Here is a very good article by Faye Levine about the Golem:
http://www.atomick.net/fayelevine/pk/golem00.shtml
I would like to cite the following from the section about the
qualities of a Golem from the above:
: The golem possesses no spiritual qualities, because simply,
: it does not have a human soul. It has been given the ruah,
: the "breath of bones" or "animal soul", the basic life force
: in all living things, but possesses nothing higher.
Related to the model, that is again the Golem made of clay (Earth)
and given only the minimal amount of soul/mind (Air) that makes
him alive. Let me try to extract something more out of this, by
relating Aries to the other two Fire signs, Leo and Sagittarius,
who represent later stages of a fire, where there is already less
wood (Earth) and more smoke (Air). The later signs are older, so
they represent also where Aries has to evolve to, namely to more
soul, to more mind, to more overview and insight into the world.
He has to detach from the mere "breath of bones" or "animal soul".
Not astonishingly, the name of the Rabbi (Loew) who made the
Golem in Prague is the german word for lion, thus Leo. It is Leo,
a later stage of the fire, that is able to give Aries some life.
Any suggestions, questions, comments, feedback, challenges ?
alain@xphi.ch
--
To reply by e-mail, append the number two to my first name
I think in one of my first posts here, Sharyn mentioned
that the timing of critical illnesses could be used to
prove astrology. Here is a bit that is maybe interesting
in that respect:
Pope John Paul II died during a transit of his northern
node opposite his natal Mars. I remember that when I had
such a transit about 15 years ago, I got quite ill in a
similar way to the pope. The problem was that I catched
some virus or something that made it very painful for
me to swallow food. I do not remember exactly how, but
that made it also impossible to sleep more than 1 or 2
hours in a row. If you can hardly eat anything and you
cannot sleep much, things deteriorate quite quickly,
I lost about 6 kilos in a few days and, after taking
antibiotics it took a few weeks to fully recover.
I remember that, before getting sick, I had done lots of
things that used up energy. For example, I had been with
friend in the mountains, walking maybe 30 km and several
hundred meters up and down, searching for crystals (it
was in summer, sun in Leo), and I don't have a habit of
doing this, my body is not used to it.
Astrologically, I see Mars fighting the northern node
(the mouth), making it very difficult to swallow food.
What I don't see is why this aspect should be specially
strong compared to other possible aspects of other
planets to the nodes, so maybe this is just a coincidence
that affected two people. Might still be good, though,
to at least think back to past transits and eventually
to mark future ones...
At the time of his death, there was another opposition
in transit, namely Chiron opposite natal Saturn in Leo.
Reminds me a bit of what Heraclitus says about Apollon,
the sun god (thus related to Leo), namely that Apollon
does not speak or show, but communicate via signs.
Reminds me of the two pigeons that would not both want
to fly out at the same time and the late pope's trouble
to speak.
By the way, currently I have Chiron opposite my natal
Mercury (first degree of Leo) and it has been the best
opposition in my experience. I remember once having
read by Liz Greene that Chiron does not have many friends
in other planets. And sure, the oppositions to Saturn
appear to have been quite heavy and painful. But in
the case of Mercury and Chiron, I think the two fit
quite well together, a teacher and a pupil, somebody
who wants to teach and somebody who is eager to learn.
Opposition is sort of the natural position between a
teacher and a pupil, at least literally in typical
classrooms. Imagine a teacher sitting with pupils and
all facing the blackboard. Nah.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Here is, building on previous posts on the same subject,
an attempt to construct the basic properties of the signs
of the Western Tropical Zodiac from the four elements
defined by the four combinations of in/out and rest/move.
What follows is quite abstract and I have not yet found
a fully logical path for syntesizing the zodiac from the
elements, but I hope at least some people will find the
following as promising as me. Here is this time's matrix:
* me, see: IN/OUT
* what I see changes: REST/MOVE
* FIRE:=OUT+MOVE, AIR:=IN+REST, WATER:=IN+MOVE, EARTH:=OUT+REST
* FIRE_SIGNS:= EARTH via FIRE to AIR ("fire")
* AIR_SIGNS:= FIRE via AIR to WATER ("cloud")
* WATER_SIGNS:= EARTH via WATER to AIR ("river")
* EARTH_SIGNS:= FIRE via EARTH to WATER ("tree")
A note about notation: I use words in CAPITAL letters to
distinguish between the abstract concepts that are defined
above from their usual, broader meanings. For example, the
word "fire" denotes a real fire, "Fire" the astrological
element with all its properties (visual imagination, etc.),
and "FIRE" the abstract concept defined above. The idea is,
of course, to define the abstract concepts such that their
properties derived from first principles will be similar
to the ones of their real or cultural counterparts, i.e.
that, for example, that FIRE will carry many properties
of Fire and a real fire. But back to this time's meat...
Let me start with AIR_SIGNS:
I remember mainly two pieces of mythology that Liz Greene
associates with Libra, the middle, adult Air sign, the one
that, according to my model, balances FIRE and WATER, like
a cloud (Air) emits both lightning (Fire) and rain (Water).
Since a thunder storm usually starts with lightning and
ends with mainly rain, the transformation from Gemini via
Libra to Aquarius is from mainly Fire via a balance of Fire
and Water to mainly Water.
The first piece of mythology is Teiresias that is asked by
Zeus and Hera about whether men or women have more fun
during sex, replies that women have 9 times more fun, which
causes furious Hera to blind him and Zeus to reward him with
the gift of "inner vision". The second is Paris who Hera,
Aphrodite and Athene ask to decide which one is "the fairest",
and his choice of Aphrodite leading to the Trojan War.
Now the meat: According to the model, AIR_SIGNS transform
FIRE via AIR to WATER, i.e. what is OUT+MOVE via IN+REST to
IN+MOVE. What is outside and moves can be observed by the
conscious mind (Air), can be compared and analyzed, so that
a logical model of the outside world can be found (Air too,
also logic is something that is inside IN and is stable,
does not change with time, i.e. RESTs). In other words, AIR,
which is IN+REST, creates by observation (light, Fire) an
abstract logical model (Air) of how the outside world, i.e.
OUT+MOVE, evolves with time. That model in the mind can then
lead to very strong emotional reactions, as it is shown very
clearly in the above two pieces of mythology. AIR, which is
IN and RESTs creates movement inside the mind, i.e. WATER,
that is defined as IN+REST.
Next EARTH_SIGNS:
The main piece of mythology that Liz Greene relates to Virgo,
the middle, adult Earth sign, is the myth of Persephone that
enjoys nature, looks down to collect a beautiful flower, when
earth opens up and Hades abducts her, marries her and turns
her into Proserpina, the queen of the underworld. After her
vexed mother, Demeter stops the flow of nature, an agreement
is found where Persephone spends part of the year above the
surface and another part in the underworld.
A step more abstractly, there is the image of the tree that
stands for nature and the element Earth. One part of the
tree is above the surface (the ground, Earth), another part
is below the surface. What is above can be very beautiful
(leaves, flowers, fruit). The leaves collect the light of
the sun (Fire), giving the tree the energy to live, flowers
and fruit allow the tree to pass on its seeds, i.e. allow
live (energy, Fire) to carry on. Contrary to leaves, flowers
and fruit, what is below the surface, the roots, remain in
place during the whole life of the tree, are not renewed in
a yearly cycle. Roots feed the tree with water (Water) and
important ingredients dissolved in it, and they keep the
tree upright, give it structure and strength.
This fits very well with Persephone's fate, first she is
taurean, mainly made of Fire, enjoys the beauty of nature
without knowing how it works. Then she looks down to the
ground (Earth) and is suddenly confronted with some deeper
necessities, also with issues of collective responsibility,
with making decisions, i.e. moves towards Capricorn.
Now the meat: For EARTH_SIGNS, as for AIR_SIGNS, there is
a transformation from FIRE to WATER, only this time it is
via EARTH, i.e. what is OUT+MOVEs, not via AIR. Here is
my interpretation, which might admittedly appear somewhat
constructed at the moment: FIRE, which is OUT+MOVEs has
a direct influence on what is OUT+RESTs (very obviously,
think, say, of a billiard ball that rolls and hits a few
other balls that are at rest). Earth is a female element,
represents also the human body. In my view, even in our
modern times, women are more often than men subject to
outside influences where some things happen to them without
their prior express consent (similar to Persephone's fate).
In that sense, I interpret the influence of FIRE as moving
the own body (EARTH), which causes, of course, an emotional
reaction, i.e. what is in the mind gets moving, i.e. WATER,
which is IN+MOVE is created from FIRE via EARTH.
Now FIRE_SIGNS:
A piece of mythology that Liz Greene associates strongly
with Leo, the middle, adult Fire sign, is Parsival's search
of the Holy Grail, including his initial failure to do so,
because he fails to ask what purpose the grails serves.
This fits well with the image of a burning fire. First there
is lots of wood (Earth) and little smoke (Air). The initial
impulse, corresponding to Aries, is only up, the flame must
grow up into the sky, and does not look back much. Parsival
leaves his mother, who then dies from grief, for example.
Parsival mistakes his quest for the grail for a quest for
something material (Earth, the actual grail), while it is
rather a quest for something immaterial (Air, the imaginary
contents of the grail, its symbolic meaning, etc.). As it
is expressed by the question for the purpose of the grail,
Leo must learn not only to look up into the sky, but also
to look back to earth, to reconnect to his roots, to the
influences that helped to push him up and now expect him
to improve the situation based both on an understanding
of their needs and on his airy overview.
Now the meat: The transition is EARTH via FIRE to AIR. So,
the inspiration comes from nature, which essentially rests
(EARTH is OUT+REST). Sit anywhere into nature outside of
cities and observe: There will be some motion, but most of
the time, most of what you see will essentially rest. It will
also usually be so that the few things that move (i.e. FIRE
which is OUT+MOVE) will be the main source of inspiration,
will be the triggers of one's own imagination and thus lead
to a stable internal image of how the world is, i.e. to AIR,
defined as IN+REST. The path leads to philosophy, which is
usually associatiated with the last Fire sign, Sagittarius.
Let me repeat: Observation (light, Fire) of nature (EARTH)
focusses (light, Fire, also Leo) attention onto the few
things that move outside (FIRE), which leads to abstract,
eternal insights into the world (AIR=IN+REST).
(Note that this makes also a strong bond from Fire signs
and especially Leo to divination or augury, mirrored in
mythology by maybe Apollon's most prominent speciality).
Finally WATER_SIGNS:
I find it difficult to name a single fitting myth for the
Water signs, especially for Scorpio, the middle, adult
Water sign. I find the simple image of the river a better
description. A river does mainly just two things: If flows
downhill at a steady pace and it merges with other rivers.
Let me contrast that with an early river (source, Cancer)
and a late river (stream/sea, Pisces). Sources are in the
mountains (Earth) where it is usually relatively cold, so
that there might be snow or glaciers (frozen water, Earth),
where they emerge out of the ground (Earth). Close to the
sea, streams typically lose their pace and direction,
because the land is typically flat, so that the flow is
slower, sediments settle and the stream often changes its
path due to that. In the stream and then mainly in the sea,
evaporation (Air) becomes the main path for water to go.
Now the meat: Like FIRE_SIGNS, the WATER_SIGNS evolve from
EARTH to AIR, but this time via WATER. Experience of nature,
which is essentially at rest, i.e. EARTH, also causes a more
instinctive, emotional response. The rock you sit on may be
cold, you may smell some trees, animals or flowers, etc.
All these impressions flow together into internal and quite
instinctive impressions, i.e. WATER, which is IN+MOVE. These
impressions, in turn, leads also to deeper insights into how
the world is, although this is usually a rather unconscious
process, i.e. it leads to AIR, defined as IN+REST.
That's it. :)
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Let me start with a quick citiation of a small part of what
Nick Anthony Fiorenzo writes about the two stars that were
conjunct Orcus at the time of its discovery in February 2004.
See http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids.html for the full
text and rest of the site for a lot more interesting stuff:
: Subra, marking the end of sidereal Cancer, is the paw of the Lion
: impressed in the desert sand. Subra is of prints, tracks, plans,
: codices and ancient maps--clues to hidden trails and paths obscured
: by the sands of time. Subra indicates a discovery process is at hand,
: one leading to the secret chambers, entryways, even to liftoff sites
: of the gods--places hidden from ordinary view. Simply, Subra asks
: that we dig, uncover, and find the way to navigate the passage of
: our Heart9s true desire.
and
: Synthesizing with the theme of Subra is the primary star of the very
: southern constellation Pictoris, the Painter's Easel. Alpha Pictoris
: indicates a picture or scenario is emerging from the fthers. This is
: a picture assembling itself as we break trail in our discovery process.
I think both has been a central theme in the time since the
discovery of Orcus, namely first the breaking up of existing
links to others ("divorce"), a necessity to be able to get
closer to the center and, more and more, the reemergence of
new, healthier things, a new synthesis.
(Common astrology assumes two things: The time from discovery
of a new "planet" until the discovery of the next major object
describes properties of the new planet. For example, Uranus is
related to the modern revolutions that brought a modern world
with democratic structures, while Neptune (discovered 1848)
is related, for example, to the steam machine, photography,
and the automobile and thus to oil. Second, the time something
was discovered ("born") allows to see how it is. Thus, looking
at the sky at the time of the discovery is fruitful and does
reveal interesting things about a newly discovered object,
and sets the theme for the time to come after discovery. That
does, of course, not generally imply that one should use the
real (sideral) sky for analysis. I guess this is in this case
rather something that is intrinsic to Orcus, as I hope to
expose maybe a little bit later on. But back to the main text).
Let me start with a few "hidden trails and paths".
Say, you start at Marktl at the Inn in Bavaria (Germany), where
the new pope was born on the Saturday after Good Friday and
before Easter Sunday (reminding, of course, also of the Golem
and the dangers of "operating" him on the Sabbath), but back
to the track, if you walk from Marktl a few miles downstream
and cross the river Inn to the Austrian side, you end up in
Brunau, where Adolf Hitler was born. This represents a heavy
legacy; I think I remember to have heard on TV that the new
pope, when he became cardinal, said that he hoped that he
would be able to deal with the power. I guess there is also
power to heal, but knowing the dangers is important.
It appears that Italian cardinals told the new pope that
Monaco (Munich, the main city of Bavaria in Germany) is
already Italy (practically everybody is catholic and even
politically the catholic christian party has a very clear
majority in virtually every election). Hmm, that leads to
another place called Monaco, Monte Carlo, that was also in
the news recently, due to another death of a "king".
But, let me again follow a hidden path: If you walk uphill
from Monaco you pass the road where Grace Kelly died in a
car accident (connecting also to the death of Princess Di
in a car accident, chased by Paparazzi (apparently also a
nickname of the current pope, papa-ratzi), brought also to
memory by the media through the marriage of Charles and
Camilla, yielding a strong relation to horses and cars,
thus to Neptune), but back to the path. When you arrive at
the top, you have left Monaco and arrived at La Turbie in
France, a small village that has a very medieval old town
with very narrow and angled paths, but, on top of the hill
you find a Roman monument, dediacated to the Roman emperor
Augustus, who gave his name to the month August, from the
time of Augustus, i.e. roughly 2000 years ago.
Here is a photo, including contrast to the village below:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/abbe.papon/trophee.html
The monument marks a important path, namely the Via Julia
or Via Augustus, the first Roman Road that crossed the
Alps, leading from Italy to the main part of France. This
road was very important for the success of the Roman empire,
as it literally paved the way for the conquests of Gaule
(France) and also of England. A bit more hidden in the
past, the non-existence of such a road had protected the
Romans to some degree from the invasion lead by Hannibal
who tried to cross the alps with his war elefants.
Or another hidden path, this time not an actual path on
earth: When Camilla met Charles for the first time in
the sixties, apparently the first thing the said to him
was that their ancesters had been lovers and asked if
he was interested.
Anyway, with Saturn in Cancer having been opposed to Chiron
in Capricorn many connections and relations have been broken,
maybe a necessity to reconnect to "our Heart9s true desire"
(quoting from above) and also to be able to let new things
emerge, maybe without thinking to much about them (with
Uranus in Pisces and Neptune in Aquarius).
PS: The title of this post "Lac des Cygnes" is inspired by
a french movie I saw yesterday (a snapped up the text in
the credits at the end). It means "Swan Lake", but sounds
in french identical to "Lac des Signes", lake of signs.
PPS: Sorry, I forgot to mention why I though that sideral
astrology is specifically useful regarding Orcus: This is
mainly an indirect observation, because Bernadette Brady
was able to predict the recent gatherings of kings using
positions of planets relative to the stars in the sky.
(At my quick visit to the World Astrology Congress 2005
on Easter sunday 2004 in Basel, going there sort of as in
the role of Mercury who goes down to the underworld, I say
many things that appeared, at least to my strong 12th
house nature, to be dying, to be done presented to the
public for the last time with that degree of public
exposure, a transition from the generation with Pluto in
Leo to Pluto in Virgo. But, whenever I returned from any
of the conference rooms with names like Singapore or
Sydney, I found something stable in the center (at the
heart), namely in the middle of booths Bernadette Brady
showing her astrology software that combines tropical
astrology with a view of the fixed stars to somebody.
The setup was very clever, because she was using two
monitors that had the same content, one turned such that
she and the person directly interested could watch the
screen and the other turned towards anybody walking by,
so that yould watch (and also listen) without having
to get directly into contact with her. Cool! :)
(Reminded me also a bit of the situation at the end of
Plato's Republic; apparently the new pope like Plato).
Anyway.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/milestone.html (written 24 April)
Milestones in exactphilosophy
February 2001
Idea to describe the signs of the Zodiac by transitions between
the four elements Fire, Air, Water and Earth. The idea emerged
from combining my knowledge of the zodiac (mainly based on Liz
Greene' books "The Astrology of Fate" and "Starsigns for Lovers")
with Aristotle's view of the elements composed of "dry/wet" and
"hot/cold" and transitions only being possible by flipping one
property at a time (exposed by Aristotle in Book II of his "De
Generatione et Corruptione").
March 2001
Formulation of the idea into a concrete model, and electronic
signature of the resulting text published to usenet. The text is
reproduced in appendix B of "A few new discoveries in physics",
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
June 2002
Publication of "A few new discoveries in physics", which exposes
the model in chapter 2 and applies it in chapters 3 and 4,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
September 2002
Article titled "Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac"
posted to the usenet newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated. The
article exposes the model and relates it to psychological
astrology, http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
September 2002
Idea that the pair of opposites "wet/dry" can be identified with
"in/out" and that opposing signs in the zodiac are, to some
degree, mirror images of each other, such that what is an
internal property of one sign is external in the opposing sign,
and vice versa. Interaction with Werner Held by a few e-mails
and reading his texts, especially "Die 1 und die 2", has likely
helped to inspire me to have the above idea. Publication of the
idea to the usenet newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/selection/s095.html
January 2004
Idea that the elements can be paired in a third way, namely
Earth and Air as resting and Fire and Water moving. Inspirations
for this idea were the "I Ching", the Chinese Book of Changes
(in its 8 hexagrams, the 4 elements Fire, Air, Water and Earth
appear twice, once moving and once resting) and a usenet reply
by DJ mentioning the opposite "light/heavy" as an equivalent of
"hot/cold". The idea was published to the usenet news group
alt.astrology.tropical and a bit later reproduced as part of my
online text "Book of Changes", http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book.
May 2004
Idea that "in/out" can be identified with "space" and "rest/move"
with "time", as well as that "free will" can be identified with
the "Fifth Element". This idea was inspired mainly by previous
considerations and Immanuel Kant's "Die Kritik der reinen Vernunft"
("The Critique of Pure Reason"), especially the early chapters
about space and time, as well as Arthur Schopenhauer's "Die Welt
als Wille und Vorstellung" ("The World as Will and Idea"). It is
important to stress that this idea is different from the ideas
listed above in an important way, namely it is based directly on
nature (the existence of space and time leading naturally to the
existence of 4+1 elements), not on culture. Publication of the
idea to the usenet newsgroup alt.astrology.tropical,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/posts/p371.html
Since August 2004
Series of posts to the usenet newsgroup alt.astrology.tropical
and other newsgroups with subject "exactphilosophy" that try to
synthesize the zodiac from a purely abstract definition of the
four elements as combinations of the opposites "rest/move"
("time") and "in/out" ("space"). The posts can be found by
searching for the keyword "exactphilosophy" in the list of all
my usenet posts, http://www.exactphilosophy.net/posts
April 2005
Almost formal synthesis of the signs of the zodiac from the
elements defined as above. Published as part of the above series,
in a concise text, which draws heavily on the main myths that Liz
Greene associates with the middle four signs of the zodiac in
"The Astrology of Fate". Published to the usenet newsgroup
alt.astrology.tropical, http://www.exactphilosophy.net/posts/p532.html
Copyright (C) 2002-05 by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
Paracelsus wrote:
: In my very first post to rec.gambling.lottery in 1999 I made the observation
: that the number 3 was drawn rather more frequently when the Moon was in the
: sign of Gemini. (Gemini is the third sign of the zodiac.)
:
: I thought it might be interesting to revisit the updated figures and see if
: the trend still existed.
:
: Here are the results for the first 973 draws of the UK main lottery draw (to
: April 23rd, 2005). The first column is the number of draws in which the
: number three appeared. (I'm including the bonus ball.) The second column
: shows the total number of draws in each sign.
:
: Sign Number 3 All Draws
: Aries: 10 80
: Taurus: 13 85
: Gemini: 22 79
: Cancer: 12 87
: Leo: 10 81
: Virgo: 10 76
: Libra: 9 83
: Scorpio: 9 76
: Sagittarius: 13 88
: Capricorn: 6 75
: Aquarius: 13 85
: Pisces: 9 78
:
:
: The good news is that the observation still holds. While the draws as a
: whole are fairly evenly spread among the 12 signs, as one might perhaps
: expect, the appearances of the number 3 while the Moon is in Gemini (22) is
: over twice as many as for most of the other signs.
:
: As the figures stand, a chi-square goodness-of-fit test shows no departure
: from the null hypothesis (p = 0.34).
:
: But if I regroup the other 11 signs thus:
:
: Gemini: 22 79
: The Rest: 114 894
:
: then a chi-square test returns an SP of 0.002 (chi-square = 9.36 on 1 d.f),
: showing the anomaly to be statistically significant at the 0.2% level.
:
: The question is, is this cheating??
I don't think it is, and I think the data is quite promising, so far.
Here's my take at the data:
Since the total number of draws is quite evenly distributed, it is
OK to look just at how far the number of 3's when the moon was in
Gemini, i.e. 22, is away from the expected number, i.e. 136 divided
by 12 = 11.3. The standard deviation is roughly sqrt(11.3) = 3.67.
So, 22 is about 3 standard deviations away from the expected value,
which happens with a probability of about 0.3% (in agreement with
the chi-square test, as expected).
I am a physicist and the data does not convince me yet, since the
number 22 is very small. What would convince me and would be very
hard to disregard, even for very sceptical scientists, would be of
the order of 100 more sets of lotto data from different lotteries,
with all, or at least many of them, showing the same effect and,
when summed up, with a similar absolute deviation.
Say, 100 x 136 = 13'600 draws with 3's, of which 100 x 22 = 2200
with the moon in Gemini, would yield an expected average of 1130
and a standard deviation of about 37, i.e. the measured value would
be 30(!) standard deviations from what is expected, corresponding
to a very, very small probability of this happening by chance.
(Very roughly, since a gaussian function decays with e^-(x^2),
I would estimate a probability of very roughly e^-(30^2), i.e.
around 10^-400(!) or so.)
For the moment, I would be very much interested in 2-3 results with
data from different lotteries, and would even be willing to do this
myself, if that is OK with you. Unless I find some data on the web
that is already collected, I would probably go to alllotto.com and
click through the results for three US state lotteries for all the
archived months, record the dates of draws that contain the number
3 and then analyze the data using only dates for "moon in Gemini"
in which the moon was in Gemini during the whole day (since I have
no information about when in the day the numbers where drawn).
Finally, one thing that motivates me and makes me hope that this
time the correlations might maybe not disappear (like it happens
so often, when trying to catch astrological connections), is that
symbolically Gemini, moon, the number 3 and lotto and statistics
seem to be quite closely related:
In Greek mythology, Hermes (-Gemini) learned divination (-lotto)
from the Three (-3) Fates (-3 moon phases). Gemini represents
curiosity that leads to looking at data from many angles, until
a good angle is found, from which apparently random events show
a structure. Gemini (twins, mirror images) fits also with the
fact that the moon reflects the light of the sun, etc.
Thanks for the post :)
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Robert Graves, "The Greek Myths", 81.k:
: Now, Cheiron foresaw [...] riding naked on a harnessed dolphin
: [...] No sooner had [Thetis] entered the cave and fallen asleep
: that [Peleus] seized hold of her. The struggle was silent and
: fierce. Thetis turned successfully into fire, water, a lion,
: and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned what to expect [by
: Cheiron], and clung to her resolutely, even when she became an
: enormous slippery cuttle-fisch and squirted ink at him [...].
: Though burned, drenched, mauled, stung, and covered with sticky
: sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and, in the end, she
: yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
See no way to elaborate without destroying the essence of what
is cited above...
Maybe just this: Ever heard of Peleus before ? Maybe not, but
almost certainly of his son, Achilles... Ever heard of a famous
hero coming from the island of Iulis ? But probably of some of
the people they teached...
alain
(personal remark)
Time for me to reduce "publicity" and to start growing things
again from the center, from where I live and where my friends
and family are...
I hope this time, this will finally stick. Some announcements
and disclosures might still be posted, focussed on March/April.
I noticed today that, relocated to Montreal or New York, my
natal Mars is at the IC, maybe explains a bit why 9/11 had some
impact on me, even though I would not consider myself directly
much aware of such a direct connection.
Anyway, I always have new ideas and things to say, of which I
think that they are very important at the moment (MC in Aries),
but mostly they are not and mostly they can wait at least
until next spring. I have other things to do now, at home.
Until next time...
alain
--
http://www.nomad.mcmail.com/tao/docs/tao49.htm
: (49) The sage has no invariable mind of his own; he makes the mind
: of the people his mind. To those who are good (to me), I am good;
: and to those who are not (to me), I am also good,-and thus (all)
: get to be good. To those who are sincere (with me), I am sincere;
: and to those who are not sincere (with me), i am also sincere;-and
: thus (all) get to be sincere. The sage has in the world an appearance
: of indecision, and keeps his mind in a state of indifference to all.
: The people all keep their eyes and ears directed to him, and he deals
: with them all as his children.
Hi there, I am a physicist and as a hobby, I am interested
in philosophy (and other stuff). What follows exposes what I
judge to be a very interesting idea that makes it at least
*plausible* that the four elements, which the ancient Greeks
considered the world to be made of, are not just a cultural
or historical peculiarity, but might have something to do
with the existence of space and time...
Please allow me to elaborate, first by exposing Aristotle's
view of the elements, then with a quick look at Kant's views
of space and time, and then combine the two. Please bear in
mind that I am doing this as a hobby, so don't expect formal
adherence to how things like that are usually brought to
public attention in this post of mine...
Aristotle
In Aristotle's book "De Generatione et Corruptione",
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/AriGeco.html
(and there especially in chapters 2 and 3 of book II),
he describes his view of the four elements Fire, Air, Water
and Earth, as composed of dry/wet and hot/cold:
Fire: dry+hot
Earth: dry+cold
Air: wet+hot
Water: wet+cold
He identifies dry/wet also with hard/soft, brittle/malleable.
Hot/cold is also light/heavy. This leads to a different way
to split properties:
Fire is light, it moves up (it burns wood (Earth) and transforms
it into smoke (Air)), Water flows down (say, as a river or rain).
Earth rests (say, a rock), while Air can also be considered as
resting, if one uses the image of a cloud that remains only a
cloud if there is an active balance between absorbing evaporated
water and letting rain fall down.
So, my take is the following:
Fire: moves [up, actively]
Water: moves [down, passively]
Earth: rests [passively]
Air: rests [active balance]
I also see an additional opposite that can be identified with
dry/wet, namely in/out, for the following reason: Many things,
and especially organic ones, like fruit or people, are wetter
inside than outside.
Kant
In Kant's book "The Critique of Pure Reason", in the early
chapters about space and time, he sort of describes the way a
child who opens its eyes for the first time experiences the
world. First there is the realization that something is seen,
that there is the observing I and an outside world. Kant sees
that already as a form of space, as it separates two things,
in and out. Next the child notices that some things move and
others don't, that there is time. Kant concludes that space
and time are things that exist a priori, independent of what
is in them, and that both are required for thinking.
Aristotle meets Kant
Putting the two together is now, I hope, obvious: The a priori
experience of space, of in and out, relates space strongly to the
opposite in/out, while the a priori experience of time relates
time directly to rest/move. So there are a priori four possible
different states:
out+rest
out+move
in+rest
in+move
Combining Aristotle's view of Fire and Earth being dry and Air
and Water being wet with my view of Fire and Earth being out
and Water and Air being in, the four elements become naturally:
Fire:= out+move
Earth:= out+rest
Water:= in+move
Air:= in+rest
It is important to stress that this might make a formal approach
to the four elements possible. One would start with space and
time, what (according to Kant) is what is minimally necessary
for describing the world, and could then *define* the elements
using the opposites in/out and rest/move, as defined above and
then maybe use formal methods to derive further properties of
the four elements, maybe derive things like wet/dry, hot/cold
or at least identify under which circumstances the identification
could be made...
Finally, something about the "5th Element", inspired also by
Schopenhauer's views on "free will"...
The idea is to define "free will" as what the observing "child"
can influence about the world, how it can influence the four
elements. The influence is, or course, not direct, what one
wishes for the world to be like, usually does not happen that
way, but there is a certain influence, an ability to change
the ways in which the four elements transform into each other.
For people who are interested, I have collected a few links
with earlier texts, some of them also making quite direct links
to western tropical astrology and to the I Ching. As I said, I
am doing this as a hobby, so my style may naturally not appear
very professional (right, hobby, not job (!)) and I admit that
my style of writing is very terse. Anyway, here is the link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/milestones.html
That's it.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Hallo allerseits, Ich bin Physiker und als Hobby interessiere
ich mich für Philosophie und auch Astrologie. Was folgt zeigt
etwas auf, das ich als sehr interessante Idee ansehe, welche
es zumindest *plausibel* macht, dass die vier Elemente, aus
welchen sich die alten Griechen die Welt zusammengesetzt
vorstellten, mehr sind als eine kulturelle oder historische
Besonderheit der Griechen, sondern direkt etwas mit der
Existenz von Raum und Zeit zu tun haben könnten.
Um mich dem anzunhern, werde ich zuerst Aristoteles Sicht der
vier Elemente kurz ausführen, dann einen kurzen Blick auf die
Sicht Kant's von Raum und Zeit werfen, und dann die Beiden
kombinieren. Ich bitte zu beachten, dass ich dies als Hobby
mache, so bitte keine formale Einhaltung erwarten von dem, was
üblich ist, wenn man üblicherweise etwas veröffentlicht...
Aristoteles
In Aristoteles' Buch "De Generatione et Corruptione",
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/AriGeco.html
(und dort v.a. in Kapitel 2 und 3 von Buch II), beschreibt
er seine Sicht der Elemente Feuer, Luft, Wasser und Erde,
als zusammengesetzt aus trocken/feucht und warm/kalt:
Feuer: trocken+warm
Erde: trocken+kalt
Luft: feucht+warm
Wasser: feucht+kalt
Er identifiziert trocken/feucht auch mit hart/weich und mit
brüchig/schmiegsam. Warm/kalt ist auch leicht/schwer. Das führt
zu einer anderen Art, wie die Elemente aufgeteilt werden können:
Feuer ist leicht, es bewegt sich nach oben (es verbrennt Holz (Erde)
und verwandelt es in Rauch (Luft)), Wasser fliesst runter (z.B.
als Fluss oder als Regen). Erde ruht (z.B. ein Felsen), whrend
Luft auch als ruhend betrachtet werden kann, wenn man das Bild
einer Wolke betrachtet, die nur eine Wolke bleibt, wenn sie aktiv
eine Balance aufrechterhlt zwischen Aufnahme von verdunstetem
Wasser und Abgabe von Regen.
Damit ist meine Sicht also die Folgende:
Feuer: bewegt sich [nach oben, aktiv]
Wasser: bewegt sich [nach unten, passiv]
Erde: ruht [passiv]
Luft: ruht [aktive Balance]
Ich sehe noch einen weiteren Gegensatz, der mit trocken/feucht
identifiziert werden kann, nmlich innen/aussen, aus folgendem
Grund: Viele Dinge, und besonders organische, wie Früchte oder
Leute, sind innen feuchter als aussen.
Kant
In Kant's Buch "Die Kritik der reinen Vernunft, in den frühen
Kapiteln über Raum und Zeit, beschreibt er gewissermassen wie
ein Kind, das zum ersten Mal seine Augen öffnet, die Welt sieht.
Zuerst ist da die Wahrnehmung dass etwas gesehen wird, dass es
ein beobachtendes Ich gibt und eine ussere Welt. Kant sieht das
bereits als eine Form von Raum, da zwei Dinge getrennt werden,
innen und aussen. Danach bemerkt das Kind, dass einige Dinge
sich bewegen und andere ruhen, das ist Zeit. Kant schliesst,
dass Raum und Zeit Dinge sind, die a Priori existieren, ganz
unabhngig von dem was in ihnen ist, und dass Beide für das
Denken notwendig sind.
Aristoteles trifft Kant
Die beiden obigen Dinge zusammenfügen ist nun, so hoffe ich,
offensichtlich: Die a Priori Erfahrung von Raum, von innen und
aussen, verbindet Raum stark mit dem Gegensatz innen/aussen,
whrend die a Priori Erfahrung von Zeit direkt mit ruhen/sich
bewegen verbunden ist. Es gibt also a Priori vier verschiedene
mögliche Zustnde:
aussen+ruhen
aussen+sich bewegen
innen+ruhen
innen+sich bewegen
Wenn man Aristoteles' Sicht von Feuer und Erde als trocken und
Luft und Wasser als feucht mit meiner Sicht von Feuer und Erde
als aussen und Wasser und Luft als innen verbindet, werden die
vier Elemente ganz natürlich:
Feuer:= aussen+bewegend
Erde:= aussem+ruhend
Wasser:= innen+bewegend
Luft:= innen+ruhend
Es ist wichtig, zu betonen, dass dies eine formale Beschreibung
der vier Elemente möglich machen könnte. Man würde beginnen mit
Raum und Zeit, welche (gemss Kant) das sind, was minimal
benötigt wird, um die Welt zu beschreiben und könnte dann daraus
die Elemente *definieren*, wie oben, durch die Gegenstze
innen/aussen und ruhen/bewegen, und man könnte dann vielleicht
formale Methoden benutzen, um weitere Eigenschaften der Element
herzuleiten, vielleicht Dinge wie trocken/feucht, warm/kalt oder
wenigstens identifizieren unter welchen Umstnden eine solche
Identifikation gemacht werden könnte...
Schliesslich, hier noch etwas über das "5. Element", inspiriert
auch bei Schopenhauer's Ansichten über "freien Willen"...
Die Idee, ist es "freien Willen" als das zu definieren, was das
beobachtende "Kind" in der Welt beeinflussen kann, wie es die
vier Elemente beeinflussen kann. Der Einfluss ist, natürlich,
nicht direkt, was man sich wünscht wie die Welt sein sollte,
trifft normalerweise nicht so ein, aber es gibt einen gewissen
Einfluss, eine Fhigkeit, den Wandel der vier Elemente
ineinander zu beeinflussen.
Für Interessierte, habe ich einige Links auf frühere Texte
gesammelt (fast alle auf Englisch), einige von Ihnen verweisen
auch sehr direkt auf westliche tropische Astrologie und auch
auf das I Ging. Wie gesagt, Ich mache dies als Hobby, daher
kann es gut sein, dass mein Stil naturgemss nicht sehr
professionell erscheinen mag (jawohl, Hobby, nicht Beruf (!))
und ich gebe zu, dass mein Schreibstil sehr knapp ist. Egal,
hier ist der Link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/milestones.html
Das wr's.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
(Originally posted to alt.philosophy, but, considering that
I am a physicist and consider myself the post below at least
potentially related to physics, I figured that maybe one or
two people here might find the post at least amusing :)
--
Hi there, I am a physicist and as a hobby, I am interested
in philosophy (and other stuff). What follows exposes what I
judge to be a very interesting idea that makes it at least
*plausible* that the four elements, which the ancient Greeks
considered the world to be made of, are not just a cultural
or historical peculiarity, but might have something to do
with the existence of space and time...
Please allow me to elaborate, first by exposing Aristotle's
view of the elements, then with a quick look at Kant's views
of space and time, and then combine the two. Please bear in
mind that I am doing this as a hobby, so don't expect formal
adherence to how things like that are usually brought to
public attention in this post of mine...
Aristotle
In Aristotle's book "De Generatione et Corruptione",
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/AriGeco.html
(and there especially in chapters 2 and 3 of book II),
he describes his view of the four elements Fire, Air, Water
and Earth, as composed of dry/wet and hot/cold:
Fire: dry+hot
Earth: dry+cold
Air: wet+hot
Water: wet+cold
He identifies dry/wet also with hard/soft, brittle/malleable.
Hot/cold is also light/heavy. This leads to a different way
to split properties:
Fire is light, it moves up (it burns wood (Earth) and transforms
it into smoke (Air)), Water flows down (say, as a river or rain).
Earth rests (say, a rock), while Air can also be considered as
resting, if one uses the image of a cloud that remains only a
cloud if there is an active balance between absorbing evaporated
water and letting rain fall down.
So, my take is the following:
Fire: moves [up, actively]
Water: moves [down, passively]
Earth: rests [passively]
Air: rests [active balance]
I also see an additional opposite that can be identified with
dry/wet, namely in/out, for the following reason: Many things,
and especially organic ones, like fruit or people, are wetter
inside than outside.
Kant
In Kant's book "The Critique of Pure Reason", in the early
chapters about space and time, he sort of describes the way a
child who opens its eyes for the first time experiences the
world. First there is the realization that something is seen,
that there is the observing I and an outside world. Kant sees
that already as a form of space, as it separates two things,
in and out. Next the child notices that some things move and
others don't, that there is time. Kant concludes that space
and time are things that exist a priori, independent of what
is in them, and that both are required for thinking.
Aristotle meets Kant
Putting the two together is now, I hope, obvious: The a priori
experience of space, of in and out, relates space strongly to the
opposite in/out, while the a priori experience of time relates
time directly to rest/move. So there are a priori four possible
different states:
out+rest
out+move
in+rest
in+move
Combining Aristotle's view of Fire and Earth being dry and Air
and Water being wet with my view of Fire and Earth being out
and Water and Air being in, the four elements become naturally:
Fire:= out+move
Earth:= out+rest
Water:= in+move
Air:= in+rest
It is important to stress that this might make a formal approach
to the four elements possible. One would start with space and
time, what (according to Kant) is what is minimally necessary
for describing the world, and could then *define* the elements
using the opposites in/out and rest/move, as defined above and
then maybe use formal methods to derive further properties of
the four elements, maybe derive things like wet/dry, hot/cold
or at least identify under which circumstances the identification
could be made...
Finally, something about the "5th Element", inspired also by
Schopenhauer's views on "free will"...
The idea is to define "free will" as what the observing "child"
can influence about the world, how it can influence the four
elements. The influence is, or course, not direct, what one
wishes for the world to be like, usually does not happen that
way, but there is a certain influence, an ability to change
the ways in which the four elements transform into each other.
For people who are interested, I have collected a few links
with earlier texts, some of them also making quite direct links
to western tropical astrology and to the I Ching. As I said, I
am doing this as a hobby, so my style may naturally not appear
very professional (right, hobby, not job (!)) and I admit that
my style of writing is very terse. Anyway, here is the link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/milestones.html
That's it.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <%ovce.52406$Z14.42650@news.indigo.ie>,
Timothy Murphy <tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> wrote:
> RL wrote:
>
> > Did you mean
> >
> > Dydd Llun
> > Dydd Mawrth
> > Dydd Mercher
> > Dydd Iau
> > Dydd Gwener
> > Dydd Sadwrn
> > Dydd Sul
> >
> > or was the order really different in Roman times?
>
> Talking of order,
> when did September become the ninth month, etc,
> and didn't it offend people's common sense at the time?
As far, as I know, the roman calender first had only 10
months, with the first four (March to June) named after
gods, and the subsequent months named Quintilius to
December (the first two of them later named after Julius
Caesar and Augustus); January and February were added
later, apparently because farmers preferred (for obvious
reasons) a year with 12 months...
Edgar Svendsen (solon013@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Ok, but maybe it's not about space and time, maybe it's about the way our
: perceptions and brains evolved. Since evolution is a survival process there
: is obviously a tie, we wouldn't have evolved to misperceive the world an any
: way that affected survival sognificantly. Still, we evolved in an
: environment with a very narrow range and at temperatures that emphasize a
: narrow range of activity rates, if our perceptions of space and time were
: skewed to ingnore aspects important in other millieus it would not be
: surprising. The aspects that are stressed in the four element scheme may
: not be fundamental.
I agree.
As far as I can see, your statements apply to science, in general, as well.
Furthermore, I would even say that, since all human statements are made
from the limited standpoint of human perception, they apply to everything.
In that sense, I see my ideas about space and time more as something that
people might find useful and/or like, from the probably limited standpoint
of their lives and their preception of the world.
In other words, my standpoint is rather relative to what is currently
known or believed, than making a fundamental claim in the "fundamental
sense" of the term "fundamental claim". :)
Thanks for the reply.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Uncle Al (UncleAl0@hate.spam.net) wrote:
: alain wrote:
: [snip]
:
: > Please allow me to elaborate, first by exposing Aristotle's
: > view of the elements, then with a quick look at Kant's views
: > of space and time, and then combine the two.
: [snip]
:
: Dead on arrival. Both were horribly wrong merely given Newton.
That's bullshit.
Aristotle was certainly wrong in literal terms, but if you reduce
the four elements to the abstract concepts that I mentioned, I am
not so sure. I don't see Kant wrong at all in his early chapters
about space and time in "The Critique of Pure Reason". I see no
contradiction at all between what Newton (or Einstein) discovered
about space and time, and what Kant wrote about them. Kant's
approach is simply more general.
Newton certainly made some of the most important contributions to
modern science, but also his life and views were more diverse than
what made it in public. Like everybody, he was somewhat bound in
his time and in himself: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/newton.html
Think, think again, *then* write :)
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Fred (hello@there.com) wrote:
: > Hi there, I am a physicist and as a hobby, I am interested
: > in philosophy (and other stuff). What follows exposes what I
: > judge to be a very interesting idea that makes it at least
: > *plausible* that the four elements, which the ancient Greeks
: > considered the world to be made of, are not just a cultural
: > or historical peculiarity, but might have something to do
: > with the existence of space and time...
:
: There is no doubt that the 4 elements are correlates to the 5 elements of
: the Chinese, and that both sets of elements correlate to the dimensions of
: space and time. As you mentioned, the 4 elements were conidered to be
: combinations of the 4 forces. Western science recognizes the same 4 forces
: today, although modern complexity shows these forces in a much more complex
: wrapper.
Let me try to untangle...
What I know, is that in ancient Chinese and also in ancient Western
beliefs, there is a direct correlation between the four points of the
compass and the 4+1 elements. In the Chinese zodiac, the 12 signs are
assigned in consecutive groups of 3 to 4 of the 5 Chinese elements,
while the 5th Chinese element, Earth, is believed to be at the center.
The symbolism in Western astrology is similar, as is seen maybe most
clearly in Jesus nailed to the cross. The four arms of the cross are
the four points of the compass, reality that binds the human body down
to earth, while the center of the cross represents the fifth element,
the direction up into the sky, where Jesus went after his body died.
The infamous 5th force, or rather the so far futile quest for it,
has quite a bit of a quest for a "holy grail" or "philosopher's stone"
and it is also maybe not too astonishing that it was exactly "Uncle"
Al who replied to my post first. There it is again, the clash between
hard and touchable reality and the desire for something higher...
But back to a more scientific take. :)
That there are at the moment 4 forces known in nature, is nothing
fundamental. Electromagnetism was once two separate things. At high
energies electromagnetism and the weak force become one, etc.
Currently proven physics has 3 spacial and 1 time dimension, i.e. 4
in total. However, a lot of research goes into theories that have a
lot more spacial dimensions. Cannot be excluded that sometime in the
future, contemporary experimental results will suggest a world with
more (or maybe even less) dimensions that we know now.
However, my take on space and time in my original posts, and also the
one of Immanuel Kant, are independent of that sort of progress in
science, they are more general. Kant simply argued that without space
in its most abstract form, namely the existence of observer and what
he/she observes, or without at least two separate entities of any sort
in the world, no thinking is possible. He argued the same way for time,
without it, thinking is not possible.
Even if some future theories would have 95 spacial dimensions, 93855
trillion forces and would describe time by an abstract concept, let me
call it "zugly", even then the theory would be formulated in terms of
mathematical formulas, which would contain separable entities ("space")
and there would be logic involved, cause and action, so that, at least
in the formalism, there would be a subjective "time" necessary to think
about the theory.
It may be be misleading to call both concepts "space/time", when one of
them, the meaning used in science, is quite a bit more specific than
what Kant (and I) mean with the terms.
Let me come back to your first sentence:
As I wrote above, I am aware that there were beliefs about a connection
between the four angles of the compass and the elements. But, what I am
not aware of, is a relation to space, in a form anywhere near to what I
proposed in my original post. And, concerning space, I do not think I
ever heard of a direct connection made in ancient times between time
and the elements.
But, of course, I would be very much interested, if you could give me
a few hints or links or any other kind of reference in that respect.
Thanks for the reply. :)
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
[NOTE: still cross-posting]
Paracelsus wrote:
[...]|
: | Here's my take at the data:
: |
: | Since the total number of draws is quite evenly distributed, it is
: | OK to look just at how far the number of 3's when the moon was in
: | Gemini, i.e. 22, is away from the expected number, i.e. 136 divided
: | by 12 = 11.3. The standard deviation is roughly sqrt(11.3) = 3.67.
: | So, 22 is about 3 standard deviations away from the expected value,
: | which happens with a probability of about 0.3% (in agreement with
: | the chi-square test, as expected).
:
:
: I didn't see a problem with combining the other 11 signs either, as I'm only
: making a claim for the Moon in Gemini.
:
: Another cotributor raised a more serious concern, though. As I'm only
: looking at the strongest planetary/sign/number correlation, I can't very
: well turn around and claim this is especially significant.
I guess this concern is valid considering the relatively low number
of events.
:
:
: |
: | I am a physicist and the data does not convince me yet, since the
: | number 22 is very small. What would convince me and would be very
: | hard to disregard, even for very sceptical scientists, would be of
: | the order of 100 more sets of lotto data from different lotteries,
: | with all, or at least many of them, showing the same effect and,
: | when summed up, with a similar absolute deviation.
: |
: | Say, 100 x 136 = 13'600 draws with 3's, of which 100 x 22 = 2200
: | with the moon in Gemini, would yield an expected average of 1130
: | and a standard deviation of about 37, i.e. the measured value would
: | be 30(!) standard deviations from what is expected, corresponding
: | to a very, very small probability of this happening by chance.
: | (Very roughly, since a gaussian function decays with e^-(x^2),
: | I would estimate a probability of very roughly e^-(30^2), i.e.
: | around 10^-400(!) or so.)
: |
: | For the moment, I would be very much interested in 2-3 results with
: | data from different lotteries, and would even be willing to do this
: | myself, if that is OK with you. Unless I find some data on the web
: | that is already collected, I would probably go to alllotto.com and
: | click through the results for three US state lotteries for all the
: | archived months, record the dates of draws that contain the number
: | 3 and then analyze the data using only dates for "moon in Gemini"
: | in which the moon was in Gemini during the whole day (since I have
: | no information about when in the day the numbers where drawn).
:
:
: Please feel free to post your findings to my astrolottology mailing list:
: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrolottology/
:
: Best of luck with that, although I don't expect an astrological correlation
: in one lottery to spill over into others. My personal belief is that each
: lottery has its own characteristic 'footprint', which depends, of course, on
: the natal map, the chart of the beginning of the lottery.
:
: Take the chart of the first UK main lotto draw, on Sat 19th November 1994.
: (The number 3 was drawn in this draw, and it was the second number drawn.)
: I bet you can't guess where the moon was on that first draw? [Hint: It was
: between Taurus and Cancer!!]
Did you notice that the numbers 2 and especially 3 occur quite a lot
in the sentences that I wrote (22, 136, 12, 11.3, 3.67, 0.3%, etc.) ?
(With no intention, or at least no conscious intention, on my side.)
With Mars now in Pisces, don't expect anything back from me too soon,
but it would astonish me if I would not have a look within the next
two years, or so. I have seldom seen such a clear symbolic "attractor"
as these lottery results. I don't think The Fates do that for nothing.
:
:
: |
: | Finally, one thing that motivates me and makes me hope that this
: | time the correlations might maybe not disappear (like it happens
: | so often, when trying to catch astrological connections), is that
: | symbolically Gemini, moon, the number 3 and lotto and statistics
: | seem to be quite closely related:
: |
: | In Greek mythology, Hermes (-Gemini) learned divination (-lotto)
: | from the Three (-3) Fates (-3 moon phases). Gemini represents
: | curiosity that leads to looking at data from many angles, until
: | a good angle is found, from which apparently random events show
: | a structure. Gemini (twins, mirror images) fits also with the
: | fact that the moon reflects the light of the sun, etc.
: |
: | Thanks for the post :)
: |
:
: And yhank you for these interesting comments, Alain.
:)
Fred wrote: [...]
Think, think again, *then* write...
Might also be a good idea to visit my web links,
there is interesting stuff, also about Chinese
thought there, including about the I Ging with
its 8 hexagrams that are a lot more fundamental
to Chinese thinking than the 5 elements of the
later astrology. The Tao Te Ching is formulated
in 81 = 9 x 9 parts (the I Ching has 64 = 8 x 8
hexagrams). In ancient China, it was apparently
ususal to divide a square of land into 9 parts,
the 8 outer ones given to 8 families, while the
central one contained usually the well and was
common property. That shows symbolically in the
more watery or unified nature of the Tao Te
Ching compared to the quite structured (earthy)
hexagrams of the I Ching.
Should you reply this time, please think first
and visit my site, maybe starting with the link
milestones.html that I indicated in my original
post. You might not get a reply otherwise...
Is there really no physicist in this world who
has a somewhat broader view, knows a little about
philosophy and other things ? Are there only the
two extremes in usenet, die-hard scientists who
think they only rely on facts and individualists
who know close to nothing about science ?
And nobody is listening, everybody is just keen
on defending his or her views, while all the time
avoiding to listen to what others say ?
Nobody interested in discussing how things are,
nobody interested in the nature of nature, but
everybody interested in increasing the own ego ?
(Lilith into Leo...)
Arghhh!!! What a bunch of fools...
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Please be aware that what is below is rather directed at usenet
in general, i.e. at a large majority of people posting to it
and, also, my full view is less black and white than what follows,
but sometimes some things just have to be said, just like Arthur
Schopenhauer went to see Goethe to tell him how foolish his color
theory was (although again, things are not completely black and
white there). So, essentially you just happened to be in the
"wrong" place at the "wrong" time (space and time...).
Richard P. Feynman wrote in "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!",
in the chapter "Is Electricity Fire?":
: There were lots of fools at that conference--pompous fools--and pompous
: fools drive me up the wall. Ordinary fools are all right; you can talk
: to them, and try to help them out. But pompous fools--guys who are fools
: and are covering it all over and impressing people as to how wonderful
: they are with all this hocus pocus--THAT, I CANNOT STAND! An ordinary
: fool isn't a faker; an honest fool is all right. But a dishonest fool
: is terrible! And that's what I got at the conference, a bunch of pompous
: fools, and I got very upset. I'm not going to get upset like that again,
: so I won't participate in interdisciplinary conferences any more.
Fred wrote:
: > Think, think again, *then* write...
:
: Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, I don't understand your point.
:
: > Might also be a good idea to visit my web links,
: > there is interesting stuff, also about Chinese
: > thought there, including about the I Ging with
: > its 8 hexagrams that are a lot more fundamental
: > to Chinese thinking than the 5 elements of the
: > later astrology.
:
: The Ba Gua is not more fundamental than the 5 elements. They are different
: aspects of the same unity that is the Dao. Furthermore, if your interest in
: the 5 elements is astrology, then perhaps you should discuss it with people
: who care about astrology.
:
: > Should you reply this time, please think first
: > and visit my site, maybe starting with the link
: > milestones.html that I indicated in my original
: > post. You might not get a reply otherwise...
:
: Fine, let us end this discussion. You seem to be lost.
:
: > Is there really no physicist in this world who
: > has a somewhat broader view, knows a little about
: > philosophy and other things ? Are there only the
: > two extremes in usenet, die-hard scientists who
: > think they only rely on facts and individualists
: > who know close to nothing about science ?
:
: Which are you? How can an individualist who knows nothing about science be a
: physicist? Another joke on your part, I gather.
:
: > And nobody is listening, everybody is just keen
: > on defending his or her views, while all the time
: > avoiding to listen to what others say ?
:
: Such as you?
:
: > Nobody interested in discussing how things are,
: > nobody interested in the nature of nature, but
: > everybody interested in increasing the own ego ?
:
: Such as you, obviously.
:
: Perhaps you should find someone who appreciates your sense of humor to push
: this stuff on. I am sorry that I thought that we might hold a conversation.
Think, think again, *then* write...
(Again, that is directed at all of usenet, to all those pompous
fools in it -- including me ;)
)o+
Just a quick observation...
I wrote (in summer 2004, about Orcus "2004DW" (and Juno)):
: The main inspiration for this post has come maybe from the
: following place, where Nick Anthony Fiorenza describes the
: Kuiper belt object "2004 DW" that was discovered this year
: in a very careful and precise way, relating it to the
: objects that were near it in the sky at discovery. I found
: the link while googling for "Juno"...
:
: http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids.html
(The reason I had been googling for Juno, was a very beautiful
post by Pete about Juno and relations, a bit earlier on.)
I just noticed that Usenet (born in late 1979, very likely
with the sun in Sagittarius, due to the very improvised way
in which it finally emerged) has Orcus very early in Leo,
conjunct Juno (in late Cancer). Interesting also that I do
discover this at this time, with Lilith transiting over
Usenet's Orcus...
Edeltraud Lukas Moeller (lukas@astrologiaegiziana.com) wrote:
: Hallo alain-
:
: erstmal Komplimente für Deine interessante Arbeit-
: und Dankeschön für die Mühe, sie hier eingegeben zu haben....
:
: Beeindruckt hat mich Deine Schlussfolgerung
: > welche
: > es zumindest *plausibel* macht, dass die vier Elemente, aus
: > welchen sich die alten Griechen die Welt zusammengesetzt
: > vorstellten, mehr sind als eine kulturelle oder historische
: > Besonderheit der Griechen, sondern direkt etwas mit der
: > Existenz von Raum und Zeit zu tun haben könnten....
Danke! :)
: Ich habe Elemente immer im Sinne des Lehrgedichtes ÜBER DIE NATUR von
: Empedokles verstanden-
: und mir dementsprechende astrologische Tabellen ausgearbeitet-
Vielen Dank, das kannte ich gar nicht. Schon nur die Assoziation der
Elemente Zeus-Feuer, Hera-Luft, Hades-Erde, Nestis-Wasser finde ich
sehr reich.
: Weißt Du, Physiker, wie man sich die Herkunft des Begriffs 'Elemente'
: erklärt? Er ist ja viel älter als die griechische Kultur-
:
: Grüße, ELM
Nein, weiss ich leider nicht, und konnte dazu auch nichts Gesichertes
finden. Mein Duden erwaehnt (als Vermutung) "elfenbeinerner Buchstabe",
was vielleicht am ehesten ein Ausdruck von Ewigkeit ist, astrologisch
vielleicht am ehesten mit Löwe assoziiert (weiss, edel, Elefanten leben
lang, Elfen, 11, 11. Haus, gegenüber 5. Haus, 5. Element "Philosopher's
Stone", Heiliger Gral, usw.). Ich habe kurz wieder auf Google probiert
etwas über die Etymologie des Wortes "Element" zu finden, und bin auf
etymonline.com gestossen, welche als Symbol für die Website einen Löwen
mit zwei Engelsflügeln hat, der einen Schild mit 5 Pfeilen haelt.
Erinnert sicher auch stark an Lilith (Flügel), die jetzt gerade kürzlich
in den Löwen gekommen ist.
Aristoteles definiert die Elemente profaner als Eigenschaften, die man
berühren (ertasten) kann. Daher kommt er auf die Gegensaetze warm/kalt
und trocken/feucht. Die beiden Eigenschaften sind aber auch in einem
anderen Sinn sehr konkret, da sie wesentliche Unterschiede zwischen vor
und nach einer Geburt beschreiben. Vor der Geburt, im Mutterbauch, ist
es warm und feucht; Kaltes und Hartes erfhrt man erst nach der Geburt.
Die griechische Mythologie kommt ja aus dem Widder-Zeitalter, was sie
gleichzeitig sehr konkret und sehr abstrakt macht (Achse Widder-Waage).
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Everything is influenced by everything that is,
was, and will be. Therefore, what I do in usenet
influences the rest of my life and the people
around me, and vice versa.
This one is wei-chi (550 = 6*81+64). Time to stop
except for really important announcements (17).
I:I :I:
But if the little fox, after nearly completing
the crossing, gets his tail in the water, there
is nothing that would further.
My head is too small to keep all aspects of my discoveries
present at a single moment in time. Like a person who has
no short-term memory, therefore all I can do is write down
the essentials and hope that I will be wise enough to read
them next time I feel that doing some promotion of any kind
would be a good idea...
Let it be. Be proud.
You have discovered many beautiful things about nature,
it is not necessary to do everything. Leave others some
opportunities too...
Such big changes of how the world is viewed ("paradigm
shifts") are not something that can "make it" within one
generation. Most people are simply not able to handle
the necessary mental restructuring within their lifes.
The only remaining option is to ignore or fight the new
stuff, and to generate children that will be more open
to adopt the new ideas, maybe with some modifications.
Who am I to decide that my discoveries should become
known to all of the world as quickly as possible ? How
could I possibly be qualified to make such a decision ?
What has emerged during the recent years was formed
by many diverse influences. It is likely that the fates
will send a few people to recover what is there, when
the time is ripe. They will find it, as it is now.
Since my site, as it is now, has grown through so many
influences and very hard work during several years by
me, it is unlikely that I will be able to craft something
better with less work. Besides, some constellations will
not return and some collective events in the world will
not repeat, so that it is likely not even possible to create
something "better" with the same broadness and depth.
Pluto will soon enter Capricorn, the one who does pick
up the ideas that Sagittarius let sink down without
following up. If that will not create interest by some
people, then another constellation at a later time will.
Who am I to recognize when the time will be right ?
So far, all my concrete predictions have been wrong.
At the age of 38, how about a more normal life,
how about a girlfriend that is actually there and
how about a family with children sometime ?
Don't I want that ? Sure, I do!
That is only possible if I detach completely from
that complex structure that my discoveries have
grown into, or rather that they naturally are.
What I can keep as a hobby, is my attempt to describe
the elements by space, time and free will. Synthesizing
from there is something that I can do privately without
much effort, without a computer or the internet.
If I find nothing, fine, I still have a beautiful hobby.
If I do find something, then it will likely be something
that can be put into a formal mathematical description
and be proven experimentally. Something like that can
be published and told to the people around me.
I would very much like to bring my discoveries into
a form that is generally accessible, because I would
like to be able to discuss it with my friends. Since I
started to work 80% in 1999 (now I am working 100%
again since about a month), I stopped to discuss things
of a philosophical nature with them and did not tell
anybody (except my parents) what I was up to.
Well, that is not really necessary. If what I have found
out, comes out in some way, then I can still explain
them what it is about. I am very good at explaining
even the most complex things in a very understandable
way in a person-to-person situation.
Telling them about my stuff before it gets some public
recognition is very likely not something they would want,
since it would make them co-bearers of a burden.
I would often also like to write a book about the
things that I discovered, because I think that with
time it will be mainly a positive thing, that contains
lots of very beautiful things of which many would
be useful in everyday life.
But again, this makes only sense after my discoveries
have achieved some public recognition, and if people
around me wish for me to write a book too.
A book about exactphilosophy, if I find a mathematical
model that is easily provable, would be a good idea in
all cases, because nobody would mind too much.
Usenet is a very dangerous place. It is some kind of trap,
it is like a drug that makes you addicted for more. This
may not be so for everybody, but my impression is that
it is for most of the people who post and the ones who
don't, don't stay for very long. A partial exception are
people who post mainly for professional reasons.
On the other hand, usenet is very deep and quite a few
people there have helped me to some very good ideas.
But doing any more of it, or doing anything else actively
except to make maybe tiny changes to my web site (posts
local or at google), including writing to some famous people,
who, as my experience shows, are the most deaf and blind
people that one could possibly imagine - doing any more
of it, would be a waste of time and/or hybris.
My "book of changes" is very beautiful, and it contains
a lot of original ideas about astrology and also about
numbers, for example the numbering of planets, the
link between the four elements and the hexagrams of
the I Ching, stuff about houses, angles, and, last but
not least (or first and last), about the nodes...
Most of what I discovered will be provable in a
quantitative way. This will very likely happen
sometime during this century. At least, it would
astonish me a lot, if it did't. So, my long term
recognition is secured.
It is likely that, even if I do nothing at all and
somebody else discovers some of the same things
as me (with or without that person being consciously
aware of my work), that somebody will dig up my
stuff and bring it out, just because doing so will give
that person recognition.
In the literal sense, I might get less recognition in
that case, but literal fame is exactly what I don't
want to have, at least not much and not while I am
still alive.
Neither does Pavlina want to be famous, if I can
trust what I feel. She is married (at least she was
in 1998) and has a son. Why would she want to be
brought into contact with this in public in her life
time ? No, it is better to leave the connection that
certainly existed and still exists to some degree,
at least when my discoveries are concerned; it
is best to leave my discoveries not too public for
the sake also of her family and herself, even if
I did not ask directly about that in real life...
I am certain that she is not fully consciously aware
of these things and it is very unlikely that she will
ever be, although, with women one is never really
sure of what they know consciously, but never say,
and what is really unconscious to them.
I my view, my best idea has been the one to link
space (in/out) and time (rest/move) with the four
elements, plus the 5th element with free will.
It is something real (not largely psychological and
cultural like most of my stuff about astrology) and
it is very timeless (not like almost all discoveries
in physics until this one).
Even if the idea should not evolve into a provable
theory, even if it might appear to have been just
an illusion to some, it will still be my idea.
"A few new discoveries in physics"
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
plus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/review.pdf
expose the main discoveries in a clear, straighforward
and scientifically compact way, so that all dots can be
connected by qualified people.
(these 17 posts have been written with HyperCard)
Not much green there was on screen.
Black, red, yellow, also blue and white,
but almost no green. Emphasize the value
of what is green and natural, it did.
Ray Murphy wrote:
: RM: I see very little to think about. The nearest thing to a logical
: connection between the Lilith myth and the Lunar apogee is the erratic
: nature of the True apogee that Juan has mentioned. The "empty focus'
: idea seems too absurd for me to contemplate [...]
Juan Antonio Revilla, e.g. http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html,
is a man. It is difficult for a man to understand the meaning of "female
mud-wrestling", as LibraLove put it. It is difficult for a man to see
the steady, cyclic purpose (the steady motion of the mean lunar apogee
BML) in what women do, because it is often (and quite purposely so)
hidden behind a more erratic surface (osc. apogee).
I guess most astrologers will agree that the one that strikes, at least
in transit, is mean BML, not true/osc. BML.
Besides mean BML, there are essentially only sun and moon who are seen
to move foward at a constant pace (seen from earth). This connects the
three to "self", because they move for their own purpose, independently
of what other planets do, while "regular" planets like Venus and Mars
seem to interact with each other, they sometimes seem to stop and move
back, apparently to meet other planets again, etc.
That feature of independence carries already quite a few issues of mean
BML, as well as of sun and moon, like a difficulty to relate to others,
to enter a relationship. In that sense, Lilith can also be seen as
opposed to Juno. (Greek goddess Hebe, who seems to be identical to Eve,
was a daughter of Juno/Hera and Jupiter/Zeus).
That was just a few teasers, to keep the wheel spinning...
(I am sure, this post contains seeds to be used as arguments by both
sides; by no means (or "trues") was this a personal attack on anybody
mentioned in this post or not. Specifically to Ray: To me, the main
difference between Sagittarius and Scorpio is exactly how fated they
consider cycles; google alt.astrology.tropical for "Thomas Ring", the
famous german astrologer (sun Sag, Plu/Nep Gem), and look for a post
called "Matrix" (mother), which contains, in my view, a great image
for this difference.)
)o+
Asbolo wrote:
: Lilith should be freed from the Black Moon. When we do that, we can see
: the Black Moon from other angles. The most important --and most
: neglected-- angle is that of the Black Moon as our "ancestral"
: relationships, and above all, our relationship with "mother Earth" and
: with the "Black Virgin".
This morning, I visited a site that has two articles about Lilith, which
I judge to be quite broad and precise:
Site:
Cardoza's Dragon Magick and Alchemy
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/ALCHEMY001.html
Lilith articles:
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/LILITH.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/LILITH2.html
There I also found an article about the "Origins of Alchemy in the West"
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/HISTORY.html, which contains the
following interesting relation between "black earth" and Alchemy:
: The Divine Art came to be called Alchemy after the Greek word 'chemae'
: ('refining the black earth'--from earlier Egyptian) was used in the
: Fourth Century to symbolize both material and spiritual transformation.
: Arab mystics who later took up the Greek teachings added the prefix
: 'Al,' signifying Divine spirit; thus 'Alchemy' means 'refining the
: Divine spirit out of the black earth.'
The four angles of reality (the four points of the compass, the four
cardinal signs, which were in ancient times Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and
Aquarius, as is visible in ancient Sphinx sculptures) bind the human
body to earth (at least that was so until balloons and airplanes).
The fifth direction (cf. the pentagrams in Alchemy, Mercury, The
Philosopher's Stone) is up, towards the Gods. The direction down,
i.e. the number 6 is, in that sense, rather related to darkness.
I would like to relate that to another text about Lilith, namely one
by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai from their Book "Hebrew Myths: The
Book of Genesis" (New York: Doubleday, 1964).
Link: http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html
: Eve's creation by God from Adam's rib-a myth establishing male supremacy
: and disguising Eve's divinity-lacks parallels in Mediterranean or early
: Middle-Eastern myth. The story perhaps derives iconotropically from an
: ancient relief, or painting, which showed the naked Goddess Anath poised
: in the air, watching her lover Mot murder his twin Aliyan; Mot (mistaken
: by the mythographer for Yahweh) was driving a curved dagger under
: Aliyan's fifth rib, not removing a sixth one.
In the chart for alt.astrology.moderated, mean BML and Juno are conjunct
at 6 and 8 degrees Scorpio, over which the moon just transited during the
previous few hours (in conjunction) and mean BML is currently at around
5 Leo, i.e. at a square to natal mean BML and Juno.
Now something that I would call "cute":
On the first site mentioned above, there is a Garfield cartoon, which,
in my view, shows this tLilith - nLilith/nJuno square quite directly
(I relate squares, among other things, to Earth and Mars):
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/images/guestbook.gif
For people to lazy to click (or reading offline):
Frame 1
A black spider with all 8 legs on a table.
Garfield behind the table, rising his right hand to greet.
G: Welcome, Spider, to my humble home.
S: Why, thank you!
Frame 2
Garfield with arms down bowing towards spider.
G: Kick back and relax, my friend.
S: Hey! You're not the big fat jerk the other
spiders say that you are!
Frame 3
G: Oh, and sign our guest book.
Garfield flaps guest book onto table and spider.
"WHAP!"
[Garfield-cat-Leo; Spider(-8)-Scorpio]
[Friendly conversation, WHAP - Lilith/Juno]
Finally, the lunar nodes are presently in Aries/Libra, fitting with
Lilith's mostly told piece from Jewish Mythology, i.e. from the Age
of Aries. It may thus not be astonishing that pinning down an exact
meaning (or meanings) for Lilith is as difficult as it is for Aries,
because both are gently driven by the wind of which the previous
sign, the last water sign, Pisces, consists mainly of, and which
contains an almost complete reservoir of experience (c.f. my site).
)o+
Asbolo wrote:
[quoting me]
: > Juan Antonio Revilla...
: > is a man. It is difficult for a man to understand...
: > It is difficult for a man to see...
Sorry for the first sentence ("Juan ... is a man.").
There is not point to mention the name of any person
when what follows is a general comment that applies
essentially to all men (including me, of course :)
Concerning the rest of my statements about Lilith, it
still feels and appears to me that they bring up concrete
issues related to BML, without too much personal bias.
I am a physicist and have the MC in Aries. Avoiding any
direct factual errors in public is important to me.
> The Black Moon is not a woman, it is a factor that refers to aspects of
> both men and women that are emotional and compulsive, exactly like the
> apparent motion of the osculating apogee.
>
> This has as much to do with "understanding women" as with
> "understanding men", so I'm afraid your sexist and questionable
> presumption is only an example of the confusion created by the habit of
> identifying the Black Moon /Lunar Apogee with "Lilith".
>
>
> > Besides mean BML, there are essentially only sun and moon who are seen
> > to move foward at a constant pace (seen from earth).
>
> This is quite incorrect in the case of the Moon. It is because the Moon
> is so inconstant in its motion: wiggling, librating, accelerating and
> desaccelerating, rapidly changing the shape of its orbit and of its
> apparent disk, increasing and decreasing in distance, that the Black
> Moon iself exists.
Do you agree that the apparent speed of the moon varies
between roughly 12 and 15 degrees/day during a month ?
> Choosing the Mean Apogee which has nothing to do with this irregularity
> of the lunar motion and appearance makes little sense astronomically
> and symbolically. But if others prefer a factor like the Mean Lunar
> Apogee --which moves like the Sun and not like the Moon-- it's o.k.
> with me.
>
> It is the consistent "lilithian" identifications and projections among
> Black Moon astrologers what has obscured and prolonged the astrological
> discussion on the Black Moon, effectively making of it a sterile and
> emotional mud-wrestling.
>
> This will never end until Lilith is freed from the chains that tie her
> to the reactive formations of the womb symbolized by the Lunar Apogee /
> Empty Focus, so we can concentrate our attention on the Black Moon and
> leave Lilith alone and free.
>
> Juan
)o+
Asbolo wrote:
: > Concerning the rest of my statements about Lilith, it
: > still feels and appears to me that they bring up concrete
: > issues related to BML, without too much personal bias.
:
: There are undeniable "lilithian" aspects of the Black Moon, but as it
: happens with every archetype, the correspondence is never 1 to 1. IN my
: opinion every archetype expresses itself on many levels and on
: different planets.
:
: To my perception, the Lilith of the Black Moon is the Lilith of the
: womb and of instinctual sexuality and spirituality, and also the
: neurotic Lilith that hates the womb and fights against it, as a
: reactive formation for the slavery of her womb cage.
:
: My point is: Lilith as a feminine principle has higher, more
: transcendental and social aspects that have no place in the socially
: regressive and isolationist symbolism of the Black Moon. These higher,
: more social aspects of Lilith are to be found the realm of the
: Lilithian main-belt asteroids (like Lilith, Hekate, etc.), and in some
: female centaurs such as Chariklo.
OK, makes sense to me. Thanks.
: > Do you agree that the apparent speed of the moon varies
: > between roughly 12 and 15 degrees/day during a month ?
:
: Yes. The speed of the Moon in lobgitude per day may vary from 11,52' at
: apogee to 15,24' at perigee. The anomalistic month from one perigee or
: apogee to the next varies in length from 25 to 29 days. The lunar
: distance varies from 356,000 km at perigee to 407,000 km at apogee. The
: apparent size of the lunar disk varies 14% from apogee to perigee, from
: 29.9' to 33.7'
:
: Juan
OK.
Do you know the books by Barbara and Allan Pease ? They are an
Australian couple and have written several popular books about
the differences between men and women, with somewhat scientific
input. One of the differences they mention is that women often
use language in a less precise way, like "when I went shopping
today, everybody was so nervous", to which a man might often
reply "What? Certainly not *everybody* was nervous". I remember
that I sometimes had arguments with my mother when my father
was not around at lunch time, exactly around a statement like
"the moon moves at a constant pace" to which I would usually
reply "no, the speed varies" (of course, the concrete subject
was a different one, although mentioning mother in conjunction
with moon makes sense symbolically; I carry a silver ring that
had been casted by my mother in a sepia shell and it shows an
ammonite (-Amun-Aries; where my moon is)).
But, of course, this is again not completely black and white;
my mother has Pluto in Cancer, while I have Uranus and Pluto
conjunct in Virgo, which I might attribute to Virgo's more
realistic (earthy) and detailed approach to the world.
And so on. This can be spun forward and varied in many ways.
Here is a general announcement that might be particularly
interesting for British readers: There will be a conference
titled "Sky and Psyche" organized by "The Sophia Project in
association with the Centre for Psychological Astrology and
the Centre for Cosmology and the Arts" in Bath July 1st/2nd:
http://www.cpalondon.com/conferences/sky.html
I mention this specifically because Robert Hand will be there
and give a talk. It is titled "A Dimensional Model for the
Relationship of Consciousness and Cosmos". Here is the first
sentence of the abstract:
: In the Sepher Yetzirah, an early Kaballistic work, there is a
: description of the relationship among a group of ten polarities:
: North-South, East-West, Up-Down, Good-Evil, Beginning-End.
That is an interesting variation of 1-Fire, 2-Air, 3-Water,
4-Earth, 5-Free Will etc.; the 3 spacial dimensions North-South,
East-West and Up-Down (1-3), plus time (Beginning-End, 4) and
morality (Good-Evil, 5). Also the rest of the talks at that
conference seem quite interesting and diverse.
(Of course, one could again relate these higher issues also
to Lilith; since they are mentioned in this context. I don't
know why exactly, but this feels also connected to meanings
of astrological houses, to me.)
)o+
I wrote:
: I mention this specifically because Robert Hand will be there
: and give a talk. It is titled "A Dimensional Model for the
: Relationship of Consciousness and Cosmos". Here is the first
: sentence of the abstract:
:
: : In the Sepher Yetzirah, an early Kaballistic work, there is a
: : description of the relationship among a group of ten polarities:
: : North-South, East-West, Up-Down, Good-Evil, Beginning-End.
:
: That is an interesting variation of 1-Fire, 2-Air, 3-Water,
: 4-Earth, 5-Free Will etc.; the 3 spacial dimensions North-South,
: East-West and Up-Down (1-3), plus time (Beginning-End, 4) and
: morality (Good-Evil, 5). Also the rest of the talks at that
: conference seem quite interesting and diverse.
:
: (Of course, one could again relate these higher issues also
: to Lilith; since they are mentioned in this context. I don't
: know why exactly, but this feels also connected to meanings
: of astrological houses, to me.)
Yes! Robert Hand's mean Black Moon Lilith is at the ascendant
(in the 12th house*) and when he will give the talk, mean Black
Moon Lilith will transit (conjunction) across his natal Pluto.
Rob Hand: 1942-12-05 19:30 Plainfield NJ (23:30 UTC)
- AC: 12 Can 22'
- BML: 11 Can 12'
- Pluto: 07 Leo 06'
Rob's talk: 2005-07-02 16:00 Bath (15:00 UTC)
- BML: 07 Leo 15'
Conference: 2005-07-01 09:00 Bath (08:00 UTC)
- BML: 07 Leo 07'
* I remember that he rectified his own chart in "Essays on
Astrology", but don't remember what exact time he used there.
Here is the rest of the abstract of his talk:
: This talk will examine the apparently dimensional nature of
: this framework and how it reveals a difference between our
: mathematical/abstractive approach to such matters and an
: ancient Pythagorean/qualitative approach. In our mathematical/
: abstractive we may have lost the ability to visualize and model
: the relationship among various levels of consciousness.
I could not resist to look at the true/osc. apogee too:
Rob Hand: 05 Can 26'
Rob's Talk: 21 Can 30'
I see nothing obvious here; I assume this is not the kind of
event that is typical for the true/osc. apogee, or maybe I
am overlooking something obvious (or subtle, something that
might only be visible on a different level).
)o+
Christine wrote:
: > [...] It is difficult for a man to understand the meaning of "female
: > mud-wrestling", as LibraLove put it. It is difficult for a man to see
: > the steady, cyclic purpose (the steady motion of the mean lunar apogee
: > BML) in what women do, because it is often (and quite purposely so)
: > hidden behind a more erratic surface (osc. apogee).
:
: I'd say it's not so much what women do, but how they *feel* that is
: difficult for men to see.
: Imho, BML is about active inner feeling and not active outer action.
I guess, I agree.
Teiresias, the blind seer, who Liz Greene associates with
Libra in "The Astrology of Fate", made Hera angry with what
he said about women and sex (Hera and Zeus had been arguing,
as usually, this time about who has more fun during sex, to
which Teiresias answered that women have 9 times more fun).
Abstractly, that is Air (language, thoughts, understanding)
that leads to feelings (Water). For Hera, in turn, it is much
more difficult to put into words why and in which respects what
Teiresias had said was correct and what was not.
The number 9 refers here to the nine gates to a woman (2 eyes,
2 ears, 2 nostrils, mouth, anus and vagina, making the vagina
the ninth gate, related to birth and fate, also because 9 is
3 x 3 and there were three fates). What Teiresias said, means
that women would experience sex with all 9 senses, while men
would focus one thing, the penis.
He also refers to the duration of pregnancy (9 months), which
means also that for women sex is a much more fated affair than
it is for men. Pregnancy, birth and children, including the
life-long obligation to care for them, are "a mixed bag",
something with lots of advantages and disadvantages that are
not easily put into words in form of a quick reply.
--
Maybe a trick described by another woman can be helpful with
respect to help men to more readily grasp what women want and
feel, at least in critical situations:
The name of that woman is Alice Schwarzer (schwarz=black, she
was born 3 December 1942, i.e. two days before Robert Hand).
She is what most people would call a feminist. In 1977 (i.e.
the year that Chiron was discovered), she founded "Emma", a
magazine about emmancipation (Emma is a german first name for
women, that most people would associate with a grandmother).
If I remember correctly, she became a feminist in the 1960s
or 1970s after meeting an existentialist philosopher (might
have been Sartre; Sartre reminds of Sartyr) while wearing a
miniskirt. Anyway, sometime during the 60s or 70s, while she
was in France, she got into a situation where she was alone
with a man in nature, in a forest on a hill, I think. The
man got very aggressive with her and she was afraid that he
might rape or kill her. She then did something that she had
already done many times before:
She started to talk to the man, but not by speaking out loud.
No, she talked to him incessantly in her mind, but her lips
did not move. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the
interview with her in which she exposes this, but, as far as
I remember, she managed to guide him such that they went to
a different place where she could then get away.
Both Alice Schwarzer and Robert Hand have Lilith in Cancer
and Chiron conjunct the northern node.
--
I have just posted two articles to alt.astrology.tropical. One
of them is about houses, in reply to Larry Swain's three part
post there. Part of the ideas that I present there originated
from things that I heard here in this thread, including Juan's
emphasis on the higher aspects of Lilith, which fits well with
the Earth/Air signature of houses (see post there when it will
appear, probably within the next 24 hours).
The second post is more personal, but also clearly related to
Lilith.
)o+
Larry Swain wrote:
: My Houses is a very, very, very fine Houses...
:
: ...and yours suck.
:
: And in the end that's about all that's ever been said con-
: clusively about the astrological houses. But that sentiment seems to
: be most exaggerated when it comes to the never-ending Modern
: versus Traditional debate about house interpretation. [...]
I agree essentially to what you have written in your post;
it expresses pretty much my own feelings. I had already
posted a reply a couple of weeks ago, but it did not get
through, which is fortunate, because I feel that I have
now a few interesting things to say related to houses...
The general idea is to look further into the past, in order
to understand how house systems came about, why anybody
came up with the idea in the first place. (This is actually
very close to what astrologers do every day when they want
to understand something, namely they look at the situation
when it started, i.e. they look at birth charts).
I have 4 inputs in that respect; 3 are internet sources,
the 4th is a piece of logic. Let me start with logic:
The only directly visible, non-abstract concept of houses,
at least in many house systems, is the axis AC-DC, which
is on a flat plane identical to the horizon. The horizon is
the line where Earth and Air meet. It is where the real
world that man can walk and touch meets the world of the
Gods, the unreachable stars and planets in the sky.
The word "house" or latin "templum" indicates something
that consists of Earth and Air.
Thus there is a natural division of the sky into two parts,
the one above and the one below the horizon.
The idea of an MC (zenith), is alreay more abstract, since
nobody can take a photograph of it, unlike the horizon,
which is a real, visible thing. But it still leads to a
more or less natural division into 4 parts.
Further dividing the sky into 8 or 12 or whatever parts,
however, seems, from this point of view, quite a bit more
abstract and rather cultural than natural.
Link 1:
"Dominion, or the System of 8 Houses", by Patrice Guinard
http://cura.free.fr/10domi1e.html
http://cura.free.fr/11domi2e.html
Apparently systems with 8 houses are older than ones with
12 houses.
Link 2:
"VENUS: The Rose & the Heart" by Nick Kollerstrom
http://astrology-world.com/venus.html
Here is a quote of the first paragraph:
: VENUS HAS AN eight-year rhythm, which formed the subject of the
: world's oldest astrological text, a Venus-tablet from Nineveh.
: It was part of a series called Enuma Anu Enlil, the 'Book of the
: Gods of Heaven and Earth', and was dated to the 17th century BC.
: It effectively recorded the five synodic periods of Venus, giving
: a series of ten omens over the eight-year cycle through the
: pattern of Venus's appearance and disappearance from view.
Now the surprise link 3:
Robert Hand will give a talk titled "A Dimensional Model for the
Relationship of Consciousness and Cosmos" at a conference titled
"Sky and Psyche" in Bath (GB) July 2nd (Conference July 1st+2nd).
Here is the abstract:
: In the Sepher Yetzirah, an early Kaballistic work, there is a
: description of the relationship among a group of ten polarities:
: North-South, East-West, Up-Down, Good-Evil, Beginning-End. This
: talk will examine the apparently dimensional nature of this
: framework and how it reveals a difference between our
: mathematical/abstractive approach to such matters and an ancient
: Pythagorean/qualitative approach. In our mathematical/abstractive
: we may have lost the ability to visualize and model the
: relationship among various levels of consciousness.
http://www.cpalondon.com/conferences/sky.html
There are lots of interesting talks there. Bernadette Brady, for
example, will give a talk about the "Chartres Cathedral and the Sun";
i.e. about a house.
But back to Robert Hand. In a current thread at a.a.mod about Lilith,
titled "the Black Moon and its symbolism" I noticed that Robert Hand
has Lilith (the mean lunar apogee) at his Ascendant (in the 12th)
and that during the conference tLilith will transit in conjunction
across his natal Pluto. Also in that thread, through the input of
Juan Antonio Revilla (posting as "Asbolo", a centaur), I noticed a
similarity between Lilith and houses, the heaven/hell aspect.
The cabalistic tree is quite similar to the jumping game that little
children play, where you jump from field to field until you get to
heaven. (In German, "Feld" = "field" is a common word used for house
in astrology).
I hope I got it roughly across how these things (houses, Lilith, and
Venus) seem connected (if not maybe the posts at a.a.mod help a bit
to clarify). Anyway, I think at least that conference might be
interesting to visit, and might provide new ideas. Apparently Robert
Hand is not completely tied to the middle ages any more...
)o+ (Alain)
Birthday
This is a rather personal post, but probably contains still
a few interesting elements about Lilith and Venus, etc.
Today is the 3rd birthday of the publication of my original
discoveries document:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
I had no intention to write about this or celebrate this
in any other way, but the following event yesterday (19 June)
changed my mind.
The weekend was very warm and, after seeing on the internet
that the water of Lake Zurich is 20 degrees, I decided to
go swimming there in late afternoon. After I arrived there,
I immediately went into the water, which seemed a little bit
less than 20 degrees, afterall. When I came out of the water,
I noticed that I had hurt my big toe on my right foot.
Something had cut the skin in the upper part of the toe and
it was bleeding. I started to put on sun oil (except on that
part of the toe) and started to read a bit (in "The Greek
Myths"). Suddenly, a little girl was standing close to me,
probably about 3 years old, blonde, straight and very fine
hair, cut in a straight line above her eyes, clear eyes,
almost an angel, except maybe for the expression in her face,
facing me and asking me what had happened with my toe.
I told her that I had been in the water and that something
there had probably cut me. I said that it had maybe been the
metal grid in the water (near the shore to allow people to
get more easily into the water).
She told me then "Wandermuscheln" ("wandering shells").
Apparently she saw in my face that I would not immediately
accept that, so she told me resolutely "I know that!",
turned around and walked away. I guess she might have been
right, because I now do think to remember to have heard
something like that, that there are shells with sharp
edges that can cut feet.
I don't want to analyze in too much detail, but my first
thought when at home and thinking about it, was that I
have Lilith in Pisces (at a precise quincunx to my sun).
The toe (feet-Pisces) and the blood (Lilith went to the
red sea after she left Adam, I guess a symbol for the
menstrual blood, immediate result of her not getting
pregnant by Adam; the female, Scorpio side of Mars).
Since "shell" is also another name for the female sex,
this reminds also of Venus, like in the famous Botticelli
painting where stands in one. She had lots of lovers, a
wandering shell. But also, and I am doing it again, the
term wandering shell could also be meant to apply to me
personally, to my wandering about in public without any
clear focus.
It never occured to me to picture my discoveries document
as a human child, but since it is now a bit more than 3
years old and has the sun in Pisces, one could say that
symbolically, I had been visited by my own discoveries
document (*2002-03-05 00:05 Zurich, published 20 June,
three years ago, 09:00 Zurich, with a grand trine of
sun, moon and Uranus).
My discoveries also have Lilith in Pisces (a few degrees
behind Venus). My posts to usenet during the last three
years have brought out many new interesting facets, but
my wandering around has also largely removed the original
document from the focus and failed to bring its contents
to public recognition.
The document needs to be integrated into society, needs to
be illustrated and explained, needs to be decorated and made
more tangible and convincing by what has emerged on usenet.
This will take time, but is also quite straightforward.
Alain
Christine wrote:
: Hi Hermes,
: I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make by Lilith and
: Chiron-NN, which do not aspect each other.
: Their Moons are also in different signs.
: But, at 1a.m, it could be my mind is a bit slow :-)
I only have a partial argument for the moment.
Like you, I see no connection between Lilith and Cheiron-NN in
the mentioned charts of Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer.
However, in my experience, whenever I look at Lilith, Sagittarius
or Cheiron is often also prominently there. (In mythology, the
constellation of Sagittarius is Cheiron (or at least one of the
centaurs) that was put into the sky - so that Sagittarius and
Cheiron often appear together is no surprise, but provides no
direct link to Lilith).
Let me try to look a bit deeper, let me try to look back to the
time that the Black Moon Lilith was "invented".
In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio. However, it also
appears to me that Pluto does not capture all the elements of the
darker, female side of Mars. Pluto does go deep, but is he much
aggressive, compulsive ? Wars are not only won by the male, bright
side of Mars, with honor and high aspiration. Treason and going
lower than the enemy can also win a war ("female mud wrestling").
In the Middle Ages, Mars was feared along with Saturn as one of
the bringers of evil, death and destruction.
So, what I am saying is that taking away rulership of Scorpio from
Mars is something that must have created huge tensions in people,
more precisely collectively and largely unconsciously.
Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime in the early 1930's,
i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto. Thus Lilith and Pluto
are connected. And, since the discovery of Pluto had a grave impact
on the symbolism of Mars, there is naturally a also a connection
between Mars and Lilith.
It comes as no surprise to me that Lilith was invented in France,
since France is sort of the twin brother of the USA, seen from the
USA often as the evil twin ("Liberty Fries"). What made these two
essentially brothers were the modern revolutions of 1776 and 1789,
both with the sun in Cancer.
The guy who invented Black Moon Lilith was Pierre Rougie. "Rouge"
is French for "red", i.e. a reference to Mars (while "Pierre" means
rock, a reference to Saturn). He used the pseudonym Dom Neroman.
"Nero" is Italian/Latin for "black", i.e. a reference to Lilith
(while "Dom" reminds of "Domus", i.e. house).
That suggests quite strongly that Lilith is a creation of Mars,
his way of taking revenge for the loss of rulership over Scorpio
to Pluto: A guy with "red" in his real name, i.e. really Mars,
is using a pseudonym that contains "black", i.e. Lilith. As the
above suggests, he was maybe helped by Saturn ("Pierre"/"rock")
who himself had lost rulership over Aquarius in 1781. (And there
seems again to be a connection to astrological houses, but this
is rather a sidetrack from the main argument, and not something
that I understand much at the moment).
There are variants of the myth of Adam and Lilith in which they
were Siamese Wwins, grown together back to back. (That reminds a
bit of Janus, the roman god of January, thus related to Saturn).
Jewish religion is strongly linked to the Age of Aries, since it
emerged roughly around the beginning of it, according to legend
when Abraham, father of all Jews, left the city of Ur.
So, the myth of Adam and Lilith is clearly related to the Age of
Aries, in which one would expect people to focus mainly on the
male aspects of Mars, i.e. rather on Adam than on Eve. It is thus
not astonishing that Eve was banned in that myth and replaced by
a more docile, domesticated wife (again a hint at the houses).
Another reaction to the discovery of Pluto was the subsequent
rise of Fascism, World War II and also the Shoa/Holocaust.
Fascism had a mythology called "Blut und Boden", "Blood and Soil".
That is again related to Mars (blood is red, related to War and
also to menstruation) and to Earth (soil; again also related to
Saturn and I think also to houses, since they are probably more
often called "Felder", "fields" in German).
And, of course, the Holocaust consisted of a systematic destruction
(although fortunately an incomplete one) of Jews, i.e. of the male
side of Mars. So, Pluto, Mars, Lilith and also Saturn and Houses
are related to the Holocaust, World War II and Fascism.
Both Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer have Jewish origins and they
were born during World War II. That relates them strong to these
issues, as well as many other prominent astrologers, like also Liz
Greene (born in New Jersey, like Robert Hand, just after the war).
In my orginal discoveries document,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
I write the following about Cheiron (section 3.14):
: Psychologically, Chiron is intended to provide a balance to Pluto,
: to heal rather than to penetrate boundaries and to head the wounds
: of the holocaust.
Summing things up, I am tempted to give the following definition
of the meaning of Lilith:
Lilith := Mars - male Mars - Pluto + elements of male Saturn*
(+ a relation to houses ?)
* i.e. some of those elements that had been removed from Saturn when
he lost his rulership over Aquarius to Uranus.
Of course, the above definition, since it is rather abstract and
mathematical and formulated in words, is male (element Air), i.e.
it cannot fully describe something that is largely female.
: > I have just posted two articles to alt.astrology.tropical. One
: > of them is about houses, in reply to Larry Swain's three part
: > post there. Part of the ideas that I present there originated
: > from things that I heard here in this thread, including Juan's
: > emphasis on the higher aspects of Lilith, which fits well with
: > the Earth/Air signature of houses (see post there when it will
: > appear, probably within the next 24 hours).
:
: > The second post is more personal, but also clearly related to
: > Lilith.
:
: I read Larry's post....twice... a while back. I felt he side-tracked from a
: point he was attempting to make, but that I never fully understood. Once
: again, it might just be my level of level of comprehension that failed.
:
: I'll hope to catch up on your posts soon. Are comments welcome?
Sure.
I certainly read and consider all replies. A lack of reply from my
side will thus practically never imply a lack of appreciation.
This post is inspired by a thread about "commuter trains"
that was active here about a month ago. Especially it is
about how Uranus is related to trains and how consequently
(as I will try to expose) also octiles (semisquares), the
nodes and the 8th house.
Just in case: I am not questioning or denying what had been
said in the previous thread, just showing a few additional
connections and expanding a bit on them. The prominence of
Gemini with respect to trains that I (and others, I guess)
observe, is something that I do not fully understand and
will not be exposed here.
So here's the logic.
Uranus was officially discovered in 1781. Railways came up
in the second half of the 18th century, i.e. in the same
timespan. It is common in astrology to associate new planets
with the discoveries and inventions of their time, up until
the discovery of the next planet. Thus Uranus is associated
with the modern revolutions of the 18th century and with
trains, the steam engine, and with other inventions and
cultural developments of that time span.
Until the discovery of Uranus, there had been 7 known planets
to astrologers: Sun, moon, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and
Saturn. Since Saturn moves slowest of these, he was considered
to be the 7th planet. He represented the end, the limits, also
of (physical) life, i.e. also death.
Accordingly, one would assume higher numbers, like 8 or 9, to
be rather associated with transcendental issues, things that
go beyond individual lifes.
Before the discovery of Uranus, the only other major "objects"
in astrology, were the two lunar nodes. It comes therefore
as no surprise that the nodes are concerned with reincarnation,
i.e. with things that "go beyond individual lifes", as I wrote
above, with things that go beyond the borders of the limited
lifespan of a human body (Saturn).
Thus there is a connection between 8/9 and the two lunar nodes.
Which node is associated with which of these two numbers, is
a very tricky affair, a bit more about that later.
That reminds, of course, also quite a bit of the symbolism of
the 8th house, which is also often connected to regeneration
and/or reincarnation.
Finally, there is also the octile aspect (1/8 of the circle,
more commonly called semi-square, 45 degrees).
Since Uranus is fainter and moves more slowly than Saturn, it
was natural that Uranus has become planet number 8, which
connects him to the nodes, octiles, the 8th house, and, of
course, also to trains.
One would therefore expect to see Uranus in train related charts
in different disguises:
- Uranus
- lunar nodes
- octiles (semi-square) aspects
- 8th house
One would expect to see, for example, more octiles than in the
average chart, possibly between Uranus and the nodes, but also
to other planets and objects in the chart. And so on.
Neptune was officially discovered in 1846, i.e. after Uranus and
and is also fainter and slower than Uranus. Therefore one would
immediately conclude that Neptune is planet number 9, associated
with noviles, the 9th house, the nodes, and with things that were
discovered in his time frame, like automobiles or airplanes, or
photography, etc.
However, it appears to me that things are a bit more complex than
that. Uranus and Neptune are also associated with consciousness
and unconsciousness, respectively.
Officially Uranus was discovered in 1781 and Neptune in 1846.
But, as with many discoveries of planets, there have been so-called
"precoveries", recorded sightings of these planets in which they
were recognized as planets, but mistaken for fixed stars.
Now, "recognized" means consciously registered. One might argue
that the official discovery dates are merely Uranus' conscious and
somewhat formal point of view. From the point of view of Neptune,
the moment that a human being first laid eyes on a new planet,
might be more important.
I hope you are bearing with this maybe rather abstract line of
thought about Uranus and Neptune. Let me try to get concrete,
then it should be come clear what I have in mind.
There had been several precoveries of Uranus in the 18th century,
but astonishingly there is a well-recorded and generally accepted
precovery of Neptune that was done by Galileo Galilei himself in
the years 1612 and 1613. In particular, there are notes in his
notebooks in which he plotted a spot for Neptune on two subsequent
nights, while Neptune was conjunct Jupiter (Galileo was observing
Jupiter and his moons; revolutionary work, with a great impact in
public, as it proved that there are things that do not revolve
around earth, which got Galileo into a lot of trouble with the
church, but also paved the way for modern astronomy and science).
If I remember correctly, it is even evident from the notes that
the spot had moved between nights. However, apparently that fact
did not reach Galileo's mind, at least not his conscious mind,
which was (obviously) more concerned with a different goal at the
moment. It is important to note that Galileo's observation took
place a very short time after the invention of the telescope,
so that earlier precoveries are at least very unlikely.
The lunar nodes are also related to conscious and unconscious,
as entry and/or exit points between the solar, conscious world
of the day and the lunar, unconscious world of the night.
All of this suggests a certain mixing of the association from
Uranus/Neptune to the lunar nodes, octiles/noviles, 8th/9th
house, and all the things that are commonly associated with
these two planets. In other words, Uranus would also be found
in connection with 9, noviles, airplaines, and so on, while
Neptune would also be related to 8, trains, octiles, the 8th
house, etc. Moreover, things discovered already in the 17th
century, would also already become somewhat associated with
at least Neptune (because of Galileo's 1612/13 precoveries).
Which node is 8 and which one is 9 ? Very difficult to tell.
Any argument that is made on the northern hemisphere, for
example, is turned upside down on the southern hemisphere.
As the symbolism of Uranus and Neptune and their precoveries
suggests, things appear quite convoluted.
That concludes the line of logic, for the moment. Let me just
shortly mention a few more loosely considered connections:
The number 8 is connected to Venus because of her 8 year cycle
(see my post about houses to alt.astrology.tropical) and 9 to
Black Moon Lilith due to her "orbital" period being almost 9
years (which makes a Lilith "month", i.e. 1/12 of that period,
9 months, i.e. the typical duration of human pregnancy).
And so on, ad infinitum...
)o+
Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
[...]
: >Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime in the early 1930's,
: >i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto.
:
: RM: It's sad that after years of discussing Lilith and Black Moon and
: Dark Moon, most astrologers still haven't got a clue what the history
: is. You might be right; perhaps Black Moon Lilith was invented or
: named in 1930, but you'd think with all the academics running around
: in astrology-world, someone would have compliled something definitive
: about the connections between:
: (1) The old 19th century invisible satellite and it's Lilith
: connections.
: (2) The mean lunar apogee and it's earliest association with "Dark
: Moon" (in French).
: (3) The leap from "Dark Moon" to "Dark Moon-Lilith" in France
: (4) The leap from Dark Moon to Black Moon
: (5) The abolition of the FML (Fake Moon Lilith) satellite - called
: Dark Moon.
: (6) The declaration and transferance of all FML attributes to BML
: (7) Whether the Mean Lunar apogee was ever an astrological or
: astronomical thing of value in the years befor it became "Dark Moon"?
: (8) The origin of the BML glyph (was it the DML glyph originally)?
: (9) The awakening that MLA and BML have the same longitude.
: (10) The erroneous ephemerides in circulation for FML or BML.
: (11) Who first used the term "Dark Moon - called Lilith"?
: (12) The Russian words for Dark Moon, or is it Black Moon?
: (13) French description today of this MLA point. Are they using the
: original French word for "Dark" or have they converted it now to a
: French word meaning Black?
: (14) The use of the MLA in the U.S. before the FML was officially
: abolished?
: (15) Lunar apogee + perigree astrology before the Dark/Black/Lilith
: additions arrived?
:
: [......]
At least in the case of Pierre Rougie / Dom Neroman, it should
probably not be too difficult to get reliable information about
how/when he did what regarding the mean lunar apogee.
For all I can see, he was a well-known French astrologer and
has written several books, of which some are available at
www.amazon.fr. Here are the titles:
- Le nombre d'or. Cle du monde vivant.
(The Golden Ratio. Key to the living world)
- La lecon de Platon.
(Plato's Lesson)
- Grand encyclopedie illustree des sciences occultes.
(Great illustrated Encyclopedia of the Occult Sciences)
Patrice Guindard mentions him and includes his chart in the
following article called "French Astrology in the 20th Century":
http://cura.free.fr/docum/16afr-en.html
I guess it would be just a matter of asking the right people
(French astrologers, I guess) to get some quite reliable info.
It really appears that Lilith is a bit of a blind/dark/black
spot as far as english-speaking sources go.
My statement above, "Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime
in the early 1930's, i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto",
is essentially based on a statement by Juan Antonio Revilla (and
on my general judgement of the situation considering all that I
have seen related to Lilith). Juan writes:
: The "Mean Apogee" is the most popular of the alternative "Black Moons",
: mainly because it has been used for a much longer time than all the
: others, and also because astrologers often are not aware of the
: alternatives. It seems to have been introduced into astrological practice
: in France by Don Neroman (Pierre Rougie, 1884-1953) in the early or mid
: 1930's. He apparently was also the first to call it "Black Moon".
Source: http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html
I am aware of his careful choice of words ("seems"/"apparently").
)o+
Asbolo wrote:
: > It seems to have been introduced into astrological practice
: > in France by Don Neroman (Pierre Rougie, 1884-1953) in the early or mid
: > 1930's. He apparently was also the first to call it "Black Moon".
: > http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html
:
: I took this information from the Spanish translation of "L'Enigme du
: Zodiaque", written by Jacques Sadoul (Paris, 1971). The author gives
: biographical information on Dom Nroman / Pierre Rougi in Chapter 6,
: where he asserts that he introduced the Black Moon into astrology, and
: in Chapter 9 deals with the Black Moon, where he asserts that it was "a
: recent invention from the years 30-35 due to the ingenious mind of
: Nroman". He gives no specific references, but in the Bibliography
: mentions the book "Planètes et destins" written by Nroman (Paris,
: 1933).
Thanks a lot for this information (and the one in the later post).
I have nothing to add to the facts, but instead something symbolic.
Place and year of the above book by Jacques Sadoul, "Paris, 1971"
coincide with place and year of death of Jim Morrison, the lead
singer of "The Doors". This was especially captivating to me,
because I had just calculated the birth and death charts of Jim
Morrison a few minutes before reading your post, in an attempt to
understand a bit more about the complex of Lilith, Hera/Juno,
and astrological houses.
Jim Morrison:
* 1943-12-08 11:55 Melbourne (FL) in the USA (15:55 UTC)
+ 1971-07-03 ??:?? Paris (France), in a bathtub
Another Sagittarius born during World War II, this one a year
after Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer. According to the death
certificate, he died of a heart attack, which would point at
Leo, where his natal Pluto/n.node conjuction is at 8 degrees,
and which was roughly transited at the time of his death by
Juno (4 degress). But the cause of his death is disputed.
I think I understand now quite a bit more about Hera and how
she is related to Lilith and Eve, to astrological houses and
to France and the USA. It is actually quite simple.
Nonetheless, I felt it more appropriate to post my findings
to alt.astrology.tropical, because the chart of that group
felt more suitable to be able to express the rather subtle
attributes of Hera than this group. In addition, I feel it
was Larry's original post that set the theme for my search.
So, if you want to know, simply point your news browsers to
alt.astrology.tropical to the post "Hera and Houses". (Note
that it may take a while until it shows up there, maybe up
to 24 hours after this post comes through).
It is really astonishing how simple and direct something
apparently very complex can become if one just looks at it
from the right angle... :)
Anyone curious ?
Christine wrote:
[...]
Thanks a lot for the feedback. Especially the argument that
Lilith has no body, is something that I think I did not give
sufficient consideration, so far.
[...]
: > In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
: > in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
: > very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio.
:
: Yet, as I understood it, Percy Lowell's daughter named it after the Disney
: character...the dog. Pluto as God of the underworld didn't enter into the
: reasoning behind its name.
: A dog is still a 'beast' that lives through the instincts and/or a trained
: behaviour pattern, and has no conscious reasoning powers. (A friend, a
: police dog trainer, told me that. I always thought dogs possessed an element
: of reason.)
[...]
It is difficult to find trustworthy facts on the internet, but
it appears that the girl who chose the name "Pluto" was not the
daughter of Percy Lowell, but an 11-year old schoolgirl from
Oxforshire with the name Venetia Burney.
(11 reminds me of Heracles' 11th task, where he had to get apples
from Hera's garden of the Hesperides. To me a little girl is the
strongest image for fate that there can be, also related to Cancer
and the first Fate Clotho; c.f. posts to alt.astrology.tropical).
About the relation to Walt Disney:
: Mickey's dog, though yet unnamed, made his debut in "The Chain Gang"
: in 1930 - the same year the planet made its debut to earthlings.
: Pluto, the Disney character, was named the following year, which
: leads Disney archivists to assume the dog took the name of the planet
: dominating the news at the time, said Disney archives director Dave
: Smith.
Source: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050215_pluto_anniv.html
I guess this still does not exclude that the girl's choice of
name was related to Disney cartoons.
It is interesting, though, to note that Walt Disney's wife
Lilly (<=>Lilith) had two failed pregnancies sometime between
1928 and 1933; their first child was born 18 December 1933.
By the way, I have played with dogs and they do play tricks
on you, which cat's don't. But that were not trained dogs.
)o+
Hera and Houses
: A house is a natural arena of life, which we furnish according
: to the nature of our own substance. Manilius described a
: horoscopic house as a *templum* and this ancient term can be
: helpful in understanding what the houses mean. *Templum* is
: also the word for a temple, which in Manilius' time was an
: empty building or designated sacred area, devoid of numinosity
: until the cult statue of the god was placed within. Through
: each templum of the birth chart we experience, through the
: planets placed there, those gods or archetypal powers which
: are in fact the intelligent patterning of our own souls.
-- Liz Greene in "The Astrological Neptune and the Quest for
Redemption", Red Wheel / Weiser (2000), near the beginning
of chapter II, "Neptune in the Houses", on page 366.
The month of June is named after Juno, the Roman equivalent
of the Greek goddess Hera, the wife of Zeus/Jupiter. Since
Cancer starts in June, at the summer solistice, Hera is
connected to Cancer. They are both related to motherhood,
and the home. Cancer is the only sign of the zodiac that
has its own "house", its shell. The womb is the first
"house" for every human being, the first closed "room" that
anybody experiences. Since in astrology, what is first, is
paramount -- which is why astrologers look at birth charts
in the first place! -- houses are for everybody strongly
connected to the mother's womb and thus to Hera.
Hera had three children with Zeus:
- Ares, the god of war
- Hebe, who is apparently identical to biblical Eve
- Hephaestus, the lame smith god who was married to
Aphrodite, goddess of love (who often cheated on
him, most prominently with Ares, from which she
had three children, but told her husband that he
was the father)
Ares had a twin sister, Eris. Since Hera apparently did not
cheat on Zeus, Eris has the quality of a "parthenogenous"
child, a child that was conceived without male seed. In
fact, it appaears that Hera claimed that all her children
were parthenogenous. Hephaestus did not believe that until:
: [...] he had imprisoned her in a mechanical chair with arms
: that folded about the sitter, thus forcing her to swear by
: the River Styx that she did not lie.
-- Robert Graves in "The Greek Myths", Penguin Books (1992),
chapter 12 "Hera and her Children".
This bears a very interesting connection to houses and to
what Liz Greene wrote in the quote on top of this post:
It appears that it was quite normal to chain statues of
gods to the place where they were standing, because the
statues of the gods were the most important thing at that
place or temple -- without it, the place would have lost
practially all of its power and meaning...
(Interesting detail: According to Robert Graves, the Romans
stole many statues from the Greeks, a fact which one might
be tempted to say, Greece has never fully recovered from.)
There are two other stories related to Hera and her children
which involve some sort of chaining to something. One is how
Hephaestus catched Ares and Aphrodite in bed with a net. The
other one, which I would like to delve into, is about how
Hera and other gods at one point wanted to take power away
from Zeus.
Hera, Poseidon and others (except Hestia) tied Zeus up with
a hundred knots when he was asleep. They bound him so tightly
that he could not reach his thunderbolt. But the Nereid
Thetis sent Briareus, a guy with hundred hands, who freed
Zeus in no time.
As punishment, Hera was hung from the sky, golden bracelets
around each of her wrists and anvils attached to each of her
feet. Poseidon and Apollon had to build the walls of Troy,
the others were pardoned.
That brings me to Paris. Two days ago, I had a dream at night
of which I only remember one scene and word. There was the
upper part of woman's body, long blonde hair, rather slim,
naked (bare breasts) and the word was: Apples.
The part of the body that is associated with breasts (apples)
in astrology, is Cancer. So, the dream was essentially a
reference to Hera. Also, Robert Graves speculates that the
name of Apollon (who appears above) derives rather from the
word for "apple" than meaning "destroyer". Hera was usually
described with the attribute "cow-eyed", a reference also
to mother's milk, I guess.
That leads straight to the apple that Eris, the twin sister
of Mars and child of Hera's threw to the feet of Aphrodite,
Athene and Hera, at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis.
This was the infamous apple with the label "to the fairest",
which, since the human Paris chose to gave it to Aphrodite,
caused anger in the other goddesses and then the Trojan War.
(continued...)
(continued)
Since Eris is one of the children of Hera, in fact the one
that ressembles most strongly Lilith, one can consider the
apple that was thrown a reaction of Hera's own jealousy,
because Zeus had been in love with Thetis and would have
married here instead of Hera, had there not been the prophecy
that any child born to Thetis would be much more powerful
than its father.
Instead, Zeus chose mortal Peleus to be Thetis' wife. The
way in which Peleus begot Thetis, at the advice of Cheiron
(who's name means "hand"), is again a story related to
restricting some movement and yielding, which reminds a lot
of the ancient chase myths where a male god chases and rapes
a woman, both transforming into different animals during
the process (a symbol for seasons), or, in older stories,
it is the female who is the perpetrator and finally devours
the man. But the one with Peleus and Thetis is in a way
quite significantly different, more of a healing nature,
like Cheiron...
Peleus waits outside a cave to which Thetis usually comes
at noon, riding naked on a harnessed dolphin. After she
had entered the cave and gone to sleep, Peleus seized her.
: The struggle was silent and fierce. Thetis turned successively into
: fire, water, a lion, and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned [by
: Cheiron] what to expect, and clung to her resolutely, even when she
: became an enormous slippery cuttle-fish and squirted ink at him
: [...]. Though burned, drenched, mauled and stung, and covered with
: sticky sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and, in the end, she
: yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
-- Robert Graves, "The Greek Myths", chapter 81 [=9x9 Tao]
Contrary to Zeus or others in the many chase stories,
Peleus did not turn into any other shapes, he stayed
firmly what and where he was. And he did not rape her,
he only held her in place; only when she yielded, when
she noticed that the new position she bad been forced
into was not so bad afterall, that they slept together.
Peleus is for a great part identical to Cheiron and thus
also related to Sagittaris, who's sign is an archer and
a centaur, mainly Cheiron or Pholus. Robert Graves:
: It may well be that the author of the old English "Seege or Battayle
: of Troy" drew on a lost Classical source when he made Peleu 'half man,
: half hourse'.
I guess Peleus is not a well known personality in Greek
mythology, but probably everybody has heard of his son,
Achilles.
Liz Greene relates Paris' choice between the gods to Libra
(in "The Astrology of Fate"), just as she does Tereisias'
verdict about who has more fun during sex, which he was
forced to make by the ever quarreling couple Zeus-Hera.
It is the god's asking human beings about their insights
into the fabric of things that are rater divine.
Hera is firmly connected to the ground, but also has high
aspirations. The word "Hero" derives from her name. The
hero Hercules/Heracles is named after her too, namely
"Fame of Hera" and, although Hera is not physically his
mother, Zeus took a lot more care with choosing an ideal
mother, taking a long time to prepare things. Hera was
also the old woman that was carried accross a river by
the young hero Jason (the one with the "Golden Fleece"),
where he lost a shoe.
In "The Astrological Neptune and the Quest for Redemption",
Liz Greene associates the ascentent strongly with Mars and
with birth. In the "Astrology of Fate", in turn, Jason is
mentioned in the section about Aries.
As you can see, things are getting a bit more improvised,
as the main points have been at least touched that show
quite clearly how houses, Cancer, Lilith, Cheiron, Mars,
moon (<=>Cancer,Lilith), and other things are connected.
The USA and France, or at least their modern revolutions
of the 18th century, have the sun in Cancer. Hera can get
very angry, as was visible in her reaction to the 9/11
attacks that attacked very personally, since they hit
sort of her "two apples" situated in "The Big Apple" NYC.
The Three Fates are
- Clotho ("spinner", I guess origin also of "clothes")
- Lachesis ("measurer")
- Atropos ("she who cannot be turned or avoided")
They coincide with the three Water signs, i.e. Cancer
with Clotho, Lachesis with Scorpio, and Atropos with
Pisces. The also coincide a bit with the corresponding
Earth signs, Taurus ("cow-eyed Hera"), Virgo, Capr.
Hera would very much like to be back in matriarchal times
when women were not consciously aware that men are needed
for childbirth, where they could have the illusion that
they alone had the power to create a child and the fact
that children also often looked like some of the men
around was something higher, airer than raw sexuality,
which is rather a lower thing in her mind.
Thus destroying the illusion that women were the sole
source of physical life, that the male seed is a literal
thing that is needed for procreation, destroyed in
effect two illusions, not just one.
All of this makes Hera a very conservative and sceptical
person, but at the same time also very creative and even
revolutionary (she was the mind behind at least one of
the revolutions in Greek Mythology and caused other
minor turmoil, like the Trojan War.)
There is also the naivity of children before adolescence,
i.e. of Gemini and Cancer (both partially in June), who
do not really know yet and don't really want to know how
babies are made.
Who am I to attempt to make a list of all possible and
thinkable associations, when gods like Zeus and Hera
can spend an eternity quarreling about these issues ?
Let me get back to somewhat slower waters and try to
summarize and extract a few things...
(continued...)
(continued)
SUMMARY
Houses are about Earth and Air, about concrete and about
abstract things (Earth-horizon-Air). This relates them
also to the axis Aries to Libra.
Cheiron is related to houses because healing, like in the
case of Thetis, but also for things like healing a broken
leg, consists often just of fixing some things in a given
position, while letting others flow freely.
This is closely associated with the hand, the instrument
that only men and women have, which can grip and release
things, which, of course, draws back a strong connection
to issues of fate and free will.
(According to Liz Greene, the Greeks (thus Aries-Libra)
used to call "the right moment" to do something "Kairos",
which is obviously a variation of "hand").
Houses are about birth and rebirth. If they are empty,
they lack meaning -- an empty womb is just a fat belly.
And they are about mother and father and their roles,
about the mysteries of life. (See, for example the way
in which it is disputed whether the 4th/10th house are
connected to mother and/or father).
: Maybe in the end, reality is not alll male in the sense
: "me here, stars there", but also a bit female "me and
: the stars are one". Of course, these differences come
: about because women can directly identify with their
: mothers who were the world before birth. For men,
: identification is a more abstract concept; at first
: father seems just to be a stranger that also happens
: to live in the same house(3), only later common roots
: are discovered.
-- Alain Stalder, "A few new discoveries in physics",
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf (2002)
I am quoting myself and see that the above is in part
simply a variation of "Houses are about Earth and Air",
anything else is likely just one of a myriad of things
that can emerge from it, although the above post still
does expose a few common traits in probably useful form.
Or something like that... :)
)o+
Ray Murphy wrote:
: RM: During the 20th century Chiron has spent only 4.5% of the time in
: Sagittarius. Most of the time it was in Aquarius to Taurus (57%).
One hundred hands... :)
There is one talk that Liz Greene gave in spring 2000 at the
Astrology World Congress in Lucerne, Switzerland, of which I
only remember very little: It was about Chiron, World War II
and she mentioned the peculiar orbit of Chiron and there the
fact that Chiron remained in some signs a lot longer than in
others.
I have no clue at the moment, how "20", "4.5%". "57%", the signs
"Sagittarius", "Aquarius" and "Taurus" are linked to the issues
discussed previously, although it feels quite a bit to me that
they have, and in very interestings ways so.
In my limited experience, there is a strive in all signs towards
the next sign of the same element (the one at a trine). For me as
a Leo, there is a clear trend towards Sagittarius.
Conversely, it appears to me that it is often quite refreshing
for Sagittarians to once in a while do some straight, concrete
(Aries) stuff again. This is also how I see Zeus's ability to
escape from traps, like where he used his hundred hands, his
skills given by nature, to easily escape any corner that others
might try to put him into.
Liz Greene described in "Astrology for Lovers" how she once saw
in France how a Scorpion committed suicide when it was cornered
by a few kids. Sagittarius, the next sign in the zodiac, can
escape this kind of situations, Scorpio's notion of "rather rule
in hell than serve in heaven" no longer applies.
I think in the couple of Hera and Zeus/Jupiter (<=>Sagittarius)
each of them knows typically a lot more about his/her partner
than they usually say. Zeus enjoyed to be tied up, because he
knew that he could easily escape, which was fun too. Hera knew
very well that (unlike with Prometheus), Zeus would not let her
hang for a long time. And Zeus knew that she knew that and Hera
knew that he knew that, and ...
That is also a theme that I connect to houses, something that
has no closed description, issues that cannot be computed and
are therefore not easily accessible to science.
I guess it was in the summer of 2003 that I at one point looked
at houses and found also the number 54, a university in Australia
that tried to prove something a bit similar than in my discoveries
document, something related roughly to synchronicity, and there
where other things.
Anyway, I still have no clue about 20, 4.5, 57, etc. :)
During these posts, there was a constellation in the sky that
looks a bit like a very broad yod: Pluto biquintile Mercury,
Venus and Saturn, and all of them quintile Jupiter. Since the
yod (2 quincunxes and a sextile) is also called the Finger of
God, I am tempted to say that Zeus/Jupiter's thumb was pointing
to Libra, the male/Air side of Venus (rather than Earth/Taurus).
2|'s swiss messenger,
)o+
I wrote:
: During these posts, there was a constellation in the sky that
: looks a bit like a very broad yod: Pluto biquintile Mercury,
: Venus and Saturn, and all of them quintile Jupiter. Since the
: yod (2 quincunxes and a sextile) is also called the Finger of
: God, I am tempted to say that Zeus/Jupiter's thumb was pointing
: to Libra, the male/Air side of Venus (rather than Earth/Taurus).
:
: 2|'s swiss messenger,
That I am really just the messenger, a surfer that goes surfing
when the surf's up and tries to find a good mix between directing
the surfboard and feeling the waves, should be obvious from the
fact that the above constellation did not enter my mind until
sunday afternoon. (Which relates also to issues related to Hera
like synchronicity and telepathy again -- 3 year old girl about
a week ago, dream about apples, and more...)
Christine wrote:
: The houses form a path of advancement within human consciousness in their
: own right.
: I cannot conceive the inference of mythological application of Zeus/Hera's
: relationship to them.
In my view and experience, houses themselves do not evolve
or advance much; they are static. It is the planets in them
or especially transiting through them that advance and also
learn, I guess.
In that sense, I see a clear contrast between the circle of
the 12 houses and the circle of the 12 signs of the zodiac.
The 12 signs really flow in a circle; there is a story, an
evolution with flowing boundaries from sign to sign, what
Liz Greene might call "the mythological path" in life. I do
not see much of that in houses themselves, although I do see
it in the motion of planets through them.
I am talking mainly about natal houses here, not much about
the quick daily movement of houses that is probably too quick
for anybody to follow consciously (at least on a daily basis).
Natal houses are fated; they are (even more so than the moon)
the things that mother and child can influence most in a birth
chart; an hour earlier or later can make a huge difference,
while the signs are more solar, the moment of conception often
defines the sun sign almost with certainty; thus the father
has a greater influence on the signs in which planets are.
Conscious conception is not Hera's bailiwick. Zeus only had
a chance in disguise of a cuckoo. When her son Hephaistos,
had her tied to a chair and made her swear by the Styx that
he had really no father, she must (at least at that moment)
have been 100% convinced that this is so. But Hera is not
Hestia, who never conceived at all, who remained a virgin
during all her life. (Hera used to claim that she was the
firstborn child or her father Cronos/Saturn, thus claiming
the role of her older sister, Hestia, I guess also because
fathers often love the firstborn daughter distinctively
more than the younger daughters).
Hera does conceive, only it is not much conscious to her,
at least not when you ask directly, but new discoveries are
certainly Hera's bailiwick, something that she does take
care of and manage, only in her very peculiar and delicate
way, in which she does sometimes recognize some things
consciously and, at other times, act rather intuitively or
emotionally, whatever seems or feels more appropriate in
a given situation.
I am sure not all that I wrote above is fully correct, but,
as a man, I certainly do stick to the insight that houses,
as well as Lilith, have to do with Earth and Air, and hope
to expose this quite clearly in two or three posts that I
hope to write this weekend. I intend to present essentially
two tools that I use for analysis, the first is what I call
"associative carpets" and the second is logic, the use of
elementary concepts in astrology. I intend to review many
of the associations and pieces of logic that were mentioned
recently in the related threads and hope that a coherent
picture regarding at least some aspects of these complexes
will emerge from the aethers (cf. Orcus)...
Thanks for all of your input and insights. :)
)o+
--
Into this house we're born
Into this world we're thrown
Like a dog without a bone
An actor out on loan
Riders on the storm
There's a killer on the road
His brain is squirmin' like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah
Girl ya gotta love your man
Girl ya gotta love your man
Take him by the hand
Make him understand
The world on you depends
Our life will never end
Gotta love your man, yeah
-- Jim Morrison / The Doors in "Riders on the Storm"
Christine wrote:
: > Thanks for all of your input and insights. :)
:
: Any input and insight that I may have provided has been from observation
: tinged with a logical approach towards astrology. Your own insights to
: astrology appear to come solely through its mythological context applied to
: human consciousness.
I think that is essentially only how it appears in public.
As I said, I am a physicist and have worked several years in
research. Physics is essentially observation (experiment) plus
strictly applied logic (mathematically formulated theories).
Anybody who studies physics (successfully) must be talented
in these areas. When physicists talk/write to other physicists,
they often skip many details, they skip some logical steps
whenever they assume that the reader will be able to "connect
the dots", will be able to verify the logic whenever deemed
necessary or revealing. This minimalism is also important for
research, because it takes some of the focus off the math and
leaves more room for nature, for understanding and thinking
about how nature is.
I guess it is at least in part because I often skip many steps
(assuming falsely that astrologers will be able to connect the
dots) that what I write appears to lack logic and also seems
not to be based on direct experience. That is not at all so;
it is just not made evident in all details.
: I feel we are both travelling towards the same destination, but one of us is
: on the highway whilst the other is on the road that runs alongside it. Yet
: we're still able to wave to each other :-).
I have no clue where exactly I am going or whether I will
get anywhere. None at all. You could probably tie me to a
chair like Hera, and I would swear by the Styx that I have
no clue. Yet, there is a clear purpose visible behind the
erratic, artistic, symbolic, diverse appearances; strict
logic based on a lot of experience.
Which closes the circle by leading me back to the first
statement that I made in this context, some 20 posts ago.
Time for a review..
)o+
In this post, I would like to simply present two approaches
to astrology that I think are quite useful and thus hopefully
interesting for a broad audience. These two approaches are
certainly not completely new; what is new is rather the
consequent conscious and almost "industrial" use that I make
of them. In that respect, it is maybe important to mention
that I have Pluto conjunct Uranus in Virgo. Thus a fundamental
and conscious approach to analysis in astrology is expected.
1 Associative Carpets
Let me start with a very simple example. In science, theorists
often use so-called "baby problems" to explain some concepts that
are also found in the real, full theory. My example is based on a
few sentences by Liz Greene about houses that I cited at the start
of my posts called "Hera and Houses" about a week ago to a.a.t
(the usenet newsgroup alt.astrology.tropical):
A1: house - templum
A2: templum - empty building or designated area
A3: templum - devoid of numinosity without statue of god within
A4: god (in temple) - planet (in house)
Let me simply assume that these four associations are correct, or
at least strong enough to be worth some further consideration.
Associative conclusions are simply made by replacing equal words.
Sounds too abstract? Nah! It is something very simple. Take A2:
templum - empty building or designated area
Now replace "templum" by "house" (this is allowed according to A1):
house - empty building or designated area
That was already the first associative conclusion: Astrological
houses have the quality of an empty building or a designated area.
Next a more sophisticated conclusion, in two steps. Start with A3:
templum - devoid of numinosity without statue of god within
Replace "templum" by "house" (A1):
house - devoid of numinosity without statue of god within
Replace "god" by "planet" (according to A4):
house - devoid of numinosity without planet within (the house)
In other words, it has been associatively derived that, assuming
A1, A3 and A4 are strong associations, houses would lack meaning
if no planet is placed in them. That was, of course, one of the
points that Liz Greene was aiming to make.
Where things get quickly more interesting, is when one uses the
same methods to combine associations made by *different* authors.
Here are two more associations (see mentioned posts):
A5: Hera - chained to chair by son Hephaestus
A6: statues in ancient Greece - chained to temple
The reason, statues were chained to temples, is exactly A3, i.e.
the fact that in antiquity a temple without the statue of its
god or goddess would have lost most of its meaning.
A6 and A1 would imply that planets in houses are "chained" to
the houses they are in; they are bound by them. Combining this
with A5 leads to Hera and many issues related to her, as I hope
to have exposed in the mentioned posts.
I see essentially two major advantages that this more formal
approach to association has compared to the rather informal
associations that every astrologer is making on a daily basis.
Let me explain.
The formal process has two steps. In the first step, associations
are written down in the from "A-B" (see examples above) and given
a strength of the association. That part of the process is where
opinions will differ, especially concerning the strengths of the
associations, but probably in many cases there will still be a
sufficiently broad agreement.
The second step, however, is purely formal. Suppose A-B and B-C
are generally acknowledged to be strong associations, then the
association A-C becomes automatically also a strong association.
In other words, the conclusion itself will no longer be subject
to discussion (unless there were errors in the way in which the
formal method was not applied, of course). This second step can
be done to a large degree by computers, allowing to make millions
of connections between millions of associations in a very short
time frame, hence likely also leading to some quite unexpected
new results.
Let me repeat the process:
Step 1: Enter associations into computer and assign strength
Step 2: Let computer draw associative conclusions (by replacing)
It would certainly not be a piece of cake to put such a system
into useful practice, but there seem at least to be no fundamental
problems with the idea, only more or less technical ones.
So, the two advantages that I see are:
- Separation of "matters of taste" and associative deduction
(the two steps mentioned above)
- The second step is essentially formal
(use computer, faster than human brains)
I imagine that sometime in the future, astrologers will be using
such tools. The astrologer of the future would then maybe enter
the words "Hera" and "Lilith" and the computer would then draw
a graphic that shows all known associations that lead from Hera
to Lilith, bundle them into themes, quickly recognizable by
catchy names and pictures, etc. That computer would draw from
a huge database of associations to which all kinds of experts
would have made their contributions to. I see that machine as
sort of a "super-google", a search machine that automatically
follows all tracks from A to B and is also able to group what
it finds into categories and able to present them nicely.
2 Elementary Logic
Every astrologer is using some elementary things. For example,
everyone knows that Aries is a Fire sign, that Fire is male and
thus Aries is a male sign or that Aries is a cardinal sign,
like 3 more signs in the zodiac.
There are a number of additional elementary things that I use
in my reasoning, but are not generally known. I base them to
a large degree on my experience. Plus they are conceptionally
linked to each other and to well-accepted concepts. This makes
me quite confident that they are generally useful.
I will not be able to expose all of these things in this post
here, but rather give a few examples that can be immediately
applied by everybody.
A very useful "tool" that I use is the following numbering of
the four elements:
1 - Fire
2 - Air
3 - Water
4 - Earth
In order to explain its usefulness, it is maybe best to show
how I apply it; in this case to aspects. The numbers 1 to 4
are connected to the aspects that divide the circle by the
respective number, i.e.
1 - Conjunction
2 - Opposition
3 - Trine
4 - Square
Combining the two yields (obviously):
Fire - Conjunction
Air - Opposition
Water - Trine
Earth - Square
Take trines. They are commonly considered harmonious, but also
rather passive. Liz Greene associates a certain "fatedness" with
them. Water is a female element, associated very much with fate,
and considered "passive" (as opposed to male elements, which
are considered "active"). Harmony is certainly also something
that is often associated with Water.
Oppositions are about differing viewpoints, a theme that is also
part of the Air signs, as is dual logic (true/false). Similarly,
I can also see clear connections between Fire and conjunctions,
as well as between Earth and squares. These are useful, even if
not perfect.
The reason that they are not perfect, is in my view that there
are other elementary associations that are also important and in
parts competing with the above. One is the following numbering
of elements that I deem quite useful ("tool number 2"):
1 - sun
2 - moon
3 - Venus
4 - Mars
5 - Mercury
6 - Jupiter
7 - Saturn
8 - Uranus
9 - Neptune
Take trines again. The soft and harmonious side of Venus fits
quite well with trines, as well as her darker side fits with
their fatedness. The experience of squares, in turn, has a lot
of Mars' aggressiveness that competes with Earth's rigidity.
But let me apply my two tools to houses, or rather to angles
which form the most prominent house cusps in many house systems.
The angles are ascendent (AC), midheaven or medium coeli (MC),
descendent (DC), and immum coeli (IC). I number them in the
order sunrise (morning) to midnight (night):
1 - AC
2 - MC
3 - DC
4 - IC
Using the above tools yields:
AC - Fire - sun
MC - Air - moon
DC - Water - Venus
IC - Earth - Mars
First of all, there are four angles. Thus one would expect
them to be quite a bit like squares, to be related to tense
situations and outbreaks from them, etc.
I have related houses to Earth and Air in a recent post to
alt.astrology.tropical (in reply to Larry Swain's post).
The only visible concept in houses is the horizon, the line
that divides the Earth (ground) that human beings can walk
from the Air (the sky) that contains the planets (i.e. the
gods) and the stars that are unreachable (or at least were
in ancient times).
That fits very well with the above association of MC with
Air and of IC with Earth.
There is another important thing that can be said about
the four angles if one uses this ("tool 3"):
Earth and Air rest
Fire and Water move
There is no space here to expose in detail how I got to this
"tool", also with the help of DJ at a.a.t., I should add. Let
me just connect it to houses: Houses rest, they are rather
conservative. Their earthy side is rather conservative in a
passive way, while their airy side is more actively so.
(Similarly, both Zeus and Hera are rather conservative. Zeus
usually lets people on earth do their business without any
divine intervention, only from time to time he does something.
I would not go as far as making a direct identification in
the form Hera-Earth and Zeus-Air, as Hera lives on Olympus
too and is certainly also quite airy; while Zeus is also
not only made of Air).
The main advantage of such elementary approaches is that they
are conceptually very simple and terse. In my view, one of the
main problems when trying to statistically prove astrology,
has been that things often escape to different domains. Let
me try to explain this rather abstract observation:
Say you want to prove that there is astrological inheritance.
Suppose you have a large number of charts of parents and their
children. For example, you might try to prove that if parents
have lots of trines in their charts, that children will have
lots of trines too. That will not work, because the concept
of trines can be expressed in many different ways. Using the
above reasoning, one would expect, for example, Venus at the
DC also to be related to similar issues as trines.
Simple models that are still close to how things are, might
one day allow to catch all or at least most ways in which
the symbolism of, say, trines, might be expressed in a birth
chart. Then, by identifying the concepts correctly, it would
become possible to provide direct statistical proof for
astrological inheritance, and astrology, in general.
Finally, it will probably be easier to interest moderately
skeptical scientists to take a look at such proofs if they
are based on abstract, elementary principles, rather than
on various astrological authority figures or on mythology.
3 Wrap-Up
I hope the essence of these two rather complementary methods
was tangible and I would be very happy if some people would
sometime use them a little bit. You can be "half-pregnant"
with them, I guess, but probably once you try, you will
likely want a bit more...
At the moment, there is not much more easily understandable
material available regarding my ideas. I guess my web site
at its current state is not very helpful, although it does
collect almost all that I have written in public:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
)o+
Except the asteroid, all different Liliths in astrology are
abstract, calulated points. Nobody can take a photograph of
any of these Liliths. How come then that people assign her
a color like dark, black or even red? Does that stick?
)o+
--
Note that I purposely formulated this as a teaser. I guess
the devil's advocate would have even asked whether it would
not be better to label her "transparent" and conclude from
that, that she is insignificant. Of course, this is just an
evil distortion of how things are, but still not so easily
wiped under the rug. Anyway, I think that the above comment,
discovered by me due to a recent remark by Christine, might
provide quite a bit of material for future discussions. In
fact, I suspect it might in the end rather be an argument
for the influence of Lilith than against it. But what do I
know about Lilith; I have the mean Black Moon Lilith at an
almost to the minute quincunx to my sun ;)
: I have related houses to Earth and Air in a recent post to
: alt.astrology.tropical (in reply to Larry Swain's post).
: The only visible concept in houses is the horizon, the line
: that divides the Earth (ground) that human beings can walk
: from the Air (the sky) that contains the planets (i.e. the
: gods) and the stars that are unreachable (or at least were
: in ancient times).
I forgot to relate this to Lilith. In the definition of mean
Black Moon Lilith as the other focal point besides Earth of
a more or less imaginary ellipse of the moon's trajectory,
there are two focal points: Earth and Lilith.
Lilith is not visible, is abstract, hence related to Air.
That relates directly to what I wrote about houses above.
Of course, there are also differences, like that the moon
only plays an important role for defining Lilith, but not
for defining houses.
)o+
Keera Ann Fox wrote:
: 4 generations of women that have all influenced each other deeply. Both
: painful and fascinating.
:
[H:]
: > If not handled
: > well, you can have a lot of pain (Pluto). It's as if someone or
: > something is exerting so much emotional control over you that it can keep
: > you from being your true self--individualization is at risk. You MUST assert
: > your true identity rather than hang out in the emotional shadow of your
: > Mother.
:
: Ah, story of my life: Not to be my mother. I was trying to clean out my
: grandmother's apartment (a process that's going to take a while) and got
: completely sidetracked by old letters, letters going back to the first
: years of my childhood in Norway, living with Mom's parents. I got an
: unexpected insight into my mother's life at that time, though nothing
: that brings her closer to me (I do not understand her). Just some
: details that fleshed out who she was - and is. And that now require me
: to rethink a few things. Like strange letters I wrote at the time. One
: was a rather incoherent attempt at explaining who I loved more: my
: grandparents or my mother. My mother lost that contest back then. She
: never got a rematch.
:
: I have a lot of anger and hardness to let go of.
I hope you permit:
The number 4, even though angry and hard, has one other important
quality: its fate is essentially different from the one of the
numbers 1 to 3, no longer bound by their fate. In "The Astrology
of Fate", Liz Greene mentions a theme that often occurs in fairy
tales, where, for example, a king has three sons. And there is a
problem, some unsolved task. The two older sons fail to solve it
in the same way as their father, because they are much like him.
The youngest son, the youngest of these four, is often shown as
a bit stupid or even retarded, but manages to solve the problem
mainly because his approach is different, not so much "better"
in absolute terms.
So, assuming that you are number 4 in the chain, things will be
different. I associate that also with the number pi (3.14159...).
A circle with diameter 1 has a circumference of about 3.14; i.e.
the first 3 of the circle are bound to it; while 4 is only in
part bound to it (0.14) but the rest is different, is free from
the fate of the first 3; about 0.86 is part of a new cycle.
Identification with the mother and older female ancestors is very
much a Virgo theme (your n.node conjunct Pluto). I see the nodes
essentially as a summary of the life of any person. All different
influences (all the planets, angles, etc.) have in some way to
express themselves through the nodes. The southern node is more
of an instinctive kind; instinctively one tends to express things
that way (in your case, Pisces).
The northern node (Virgo) requires a more conscious approach.
The tensions to the full moon (sun opp. moon) are probably not so
easily released through the northern node, because it is in Virgo
and Pluto is there. Usenet (autumn 1979) has the nodes in the same
signs. I often have the impression that you could say more things,
interesting things, in usenet than you actually do.
If there is any concrete recommendation I can make, it might be to
read Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate". Her sun (at 17 Virgo) is
conjunct your northern node. Her sun is at a square to her n.node
in Gemini and mean Black Moon Lilith in Sagittarius. Her moon is in
Sagittarius. From what I gather, she spent quite some time in the
mid 1990s researching the fates of her ancestors.
By the way, thanks to Richard Nolle for his tip regarding crashes
of my astrology program Delphi. Would not have occured to me that
the reason that some people say that it crashes on some Palm OS 5
or 6 machines is so simple (installation to an extension card).
I hope this is not too much "Venus in Leo", men and women giving
naive advice to women (Venus is how men/women are towards women)
without having been directly asked to do so.
)o+
Forwarded from yoda@dagobath:
: For an invisible man in usenet, no good it is to speak.
: For a scientist, no good it is to claim that which he
: cannot prove.
: For you, much better it would be to get together once
: more with a woman, this time with one who wants you.
: Describing the world by elements and maybe proving the
: basics of it, what a great hobby that would make.
: To reach that all, just stop to post you must.
Since that newly discovered object is almost certainly bigger
than Pluto, essentially only two options remain:
A) Pluto remains a planet for nostalgic reasons, even though
astronomically it would rather be classified as one of
several Kuiper Belt Objects. In this case the new object
would have to be declared a planet too, astronomically
planet number 10 (Roman X); astrologically planet no. 11
(because astrologically the moon counts as a planet too).
B) Pluto looses planetary status. This would leave 8 planets
from the point of view of astronomy (9 astrologically).
Of course, astrologers could (and most likely will partially)
also decide differently than astronomers.
Here are a few astronomical facts:
- at least a big as Pluto, probably a bit bigger
- almost 3 times farther out than Pluto
- orbit tilted by 44 degrees (!) relative to ecliptic
About the name:
- 2003UB313 is the ID given related to the first photo of the
object 21 Oct 2003
- One of the discoverers (Mike Brown) chose the working name
"Planet Lila" on his site
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/index.html
in honour of his three week old daughter Lilah (see link
there; she was born the day of the 7/7 bombings; with three
planets reminding of a warrior princess (Lilith, Venus and
Mercury) at her MC in Leo (further interesting detail: her
part of fortune is opposite Sedna)
- I guess the Observer article that John Roth mentioned can
be trusted, so the official name will likely be "Xena" (or
is that just the trickster (retrograde Mercury) playing his
tricks, like when he hacked the site of the discoverers?)
Now a few symbols.
They fit quite well (as always) with some things that had been
discussed here recently.
Altough astronomically "Planet X" and thus related to the 10th
sign Capricorn, the 10th house and the cross ("X"), thus to the
element Earth and to Mars (planet 4), it is astrologically more
related to the other saturnian sign, Aquarius and to the 11th
house.
Thus it is related to Heracles' 11th task where he fetched (and
then returned) Hera's apples of the Hesperides and also the epic
of Gilgamesh, which is on 11 clay tablets (plus a 12th that tells
a short older version of the myth).
Since the discoverers had apparently already given up on finding
planet X (i.e. something bigger than Pluto), it appears to me
(retrograde Mercury have mercy!) that this has been it as far as
major new objects are concerned, for a while.
Postmodernity may now just have officially started...
For more symbols (but less explicitly related) see my other post
to alt.astrology.tropical that I hope to post later this weekend
and which will probably appear by monday or so. It will be called
"Turanga Leela", after the Xena-like character in Futurama and
also related to a few other "superflat" things...
)o+
J S wrote (referring to the apparently proposed name "Xena"):
: If this one "sticks", I guess we're going to have to deal with a new
: world concept the symbolism of which is a rather cheesy tv program about
: a fictional, scrapy babe.
From another article (NY Times) it appears that maybe the Observer
article got things wrong regarding the proposed name "Xena", but
with Mercury retrograde, I am still not 100% sure:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/science/30planet.html
: Dr. Brown said they had a name they have proposed for the planet,
: but did not want to disclose it until it had been formally approved
: by the International Astronomical Union. "We have a name we really
: like, and we want it to stick," he said.
:
: Informally, the astronomers have been calling it Xena after the
: television series about a Greek warrior princess, which was popular
: when the astronomers began their systematic sweep of the sky in 2000.
: "Because we always wanted to name something Xena," Dr. Brown said.
My interpretation is that "Xena" is more likely only an internal
working name used by the discoverers, and that the name proposed
to the IAU is another one.
Still, for something that will (as experience shows) have quite a
bit of influence on the fates of many people, the moment that thing
goes public carries a lot of information about it. Whether you only
look at the positions of planets at that moment or whether you also
consider all kinds of other things that happen at the same time, is
merely a matter of taste, at least as long as none of these methods
has been quantitiatively, scientifically confirmed...
Brings me to Goedel, also a person born in Brno (this is a forward
reference to my post to aat, posted this morning, to appear there).
Goedel's trick was simply to give things numbers. Heavy (or rather
light) Libra stuff. Always very subtle and deep.
)o+
Todd Carnes wrote:
: I don't see how you can justify attributing any of this "symbolism" to a
: chunk of ice & rock that was only recently discovered. There's no way
: that you, or anyone else, has had time to observe the effects of this
: body in real, honest-to-goodness charts.
I don't claim completeness nor absence of bias in what I wrote.
I have "Xena" at about 11 degrees 44 minutes Aries (according to
the ephemeris posted by formalhautis. This might hint at a slight
(or not so slight) trend towards connecting "Xena" with 11 and
Mars/Aries (also 44=11*4, I count 1-sun,2-moon,3-Venus,4-Mars).
Then again, I have several planets in the 12th house which makes
my life often a symbolic mirror of unfolding events and as one of
very few people with substantical knowledge of science (PhD physics)
*and* astrology, posting in public at this time, maybe my role is a
bit special (Saturn in Leo, have to fight for it). So, maybe this
says still more about "Xena" than it might appear at first sight.
For example, the angle at which "Xena"'s orbit is tilted, is 44*.
Anyway, I guess the future will show.
)o+
John Roth wrote:
: The truely interesting thing is that it's quite bright as such
: things go - it's well within the ability of amateurs with high
: end equipment to see it. In fact it's been observed numerous
: times, it just wasn't recognized as a planet, mostly because
: of its high inclination! It's currently around the center of
: Cetus, the Whale, which ought to give the Jonah myth
: a bit of a play.
According to Sanderson Beck, Cetus is related to the Libra decanate
of Aquarius, i.e. the first decanate in the Age of Aquarius (since
Ages go backwards):
: Cetus - Libra Decanate of Aquarius
:
: Cetus, the largest constellation, is the sea monster of discord.
: This whale devoured innocent youths as a punishment for the pride
: of their queen. This Libra decanate of Aquarius ruled by Venus is
: concerned with marriage and the difficulty of finding harmony in
: relationship. When parents do not get along, the children suffer.
: Much self-awareness and sensitive negotiation and kindness are
: needed to achieve concord. The keyword is REPRESSION.
-- http://www.san.beck.org/Astro-Decs.html
According to Beck at the above link, assignment of constellations
to decanates dates back to "inside coffin lids in the 10th Egyptian
dynasty about 2100 BC" and the "Babylonian *Enuma Anu Enlil* about
four centuries later", with the current assignment order "cardinal,
fixed, mutable" being of newer date, related to Hindu astrology.
Other sites make different assignments, but seem less reliable.
)o+
I wrote:
: My interpretation is that "Xena" is more likely only an internal
: working name used by the discoverers, and that the name proposed
: to the IAU is another one.
Here is part of what Mike Brown writes at his updated site, in the
section called "What is the real name going to be?", after mentioning
that most Greek and Roman gods are already taken:
: Luckily, the world is full of mythological and spiritual traditions.
: In the past we have named Kuiper belt objects after native American,
: Inuit, and [minor] Roman gods. Our new proposed name expands to
: different traditions, still. We hope it is accepted by the IAU and
: hope afterwards that it is embraced by all.
-- http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/index.html
A bit earlier he writes that he would have considered "Persephone"
to be a fitting name:
: In Greek mythology Persephone is the (forcibly abducted) wife of
: Hades (Roman Pluto) who spends six months each year underground close
: to Hades. The new planet is on an orbit that could be described in
: similar terms; half of the time it is in the vicinity of Pluto and
: half of the time much further away.
Arghh! Pluto in Virgo???
How about some democracy here... If names given to planets have
such a big influence on the fate of people, why not let people
decide by themselves -- consciously and collectively ?
Well, as long as there is no scientific proof of astrology, this
is very unlikely to happen...
)o+
I wrote:
: - current sextile between n.node and Neptune
I forgot to mention the crucial sextile between Jupiter
and Quaoar at 13 something Libra/Sagittarius.
Quaoar is the first in this series of new objects, he is
the one that sings and dances the others into existence.
The sabian symbols are very fitting and revealing for this
one, I think:
http://www.sabiansymbols.com/libra13.htm
http://www.sabiansymbols.com/sagittarius13.htm
I guess I don't to explain much about the Sabian Symbols
here. Just one maybe interesting association: They were
the result of an afternoon in a park in San Francisco.
I once saw an interesting TV report about animal culture.
A guy (of asian origins, if I remember correctly), was
able to distinguish from the singing of the birds from
which part in SF they came.
Also in that TV report was some rats in Israel that were
living on pine trees, feeding on pine seeds. Reminds also
quite a bit of Yggdrasil and the squirrel Ratatosk that
is running up down it, playing tricks on the dragon and
the eagle (Earth and Air).
Near the end of Quaoar's dancing and singing, four animals
help to dance the new world flat and wide:
: The High Ones in turn are aided by 'Eagle, Duck, Bear, and Frog'
: in a grand earth diving story. Frog brings up soil out of the
: deep dark sea, and the four animals dance it flat and wide. The
: 'Gods and Goddesses' then furnish the world 'Tovangar' with hills,
: mountains, trees, rivers, etc. 'Tobohar' (first man) and 'Pahavit'
: (first woman) are also part of this great 'Creation song and
: dance cycle'."
-- http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar/
Sounds quite a bit like the main singing and dancing is
now over, but maybe this is too lightly seen (Jup in Lib).
)o+
Hi there,
This is an attempt of a postmodern post related to the discovery
of Planet X (2003UB313, "Planet Lila", likely to be named Xena).
One key property of postmodern art is that things are placed side
by side without being much related to each other. Or rather, the
relations do still exist, but they are not so bluntly shown, they
are rather felt.
That makes postmodernism aquarian. It is a Utopia where different
cultures coexist peacefully without disturbing each other, but
rather harmonically balancing each other.
Aquarius is the last Air sign, the last in a transformation from
Fire (Gemini) to Water, a transformation of visual impressions by
the conscious mind into a feeling of "universal love". Of course,
failure is also part of any Utopia, but that is rather due to the
mistake that most people do when confronted with Utopias, namely
that they try to realize them. That is when they turn sour.
So, this is just art, with lots of astrological connections, but
the individual images are rather at the center, not so much the
connections, at least not explicitly so. Feel free to see your
own set of connections in the following or to create you own new
images from it (or independently of it).
Maybe a look at the "superflat" art of 1962 born Japanese artist
Takashi Murakami can better explain what I mean than millions of
words:
http://images.google.com/images?q=takashi%20murakami
So here it comes, rather it already started above...
Turanga Leela is the one-eyed girl in Futurama:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanga_Leela
Having just a single eye is not ideal for a space pilot, her view
of the world is automatically "superflat".
It was first assumed that she is an alien, but in a later episode
it turned out that she was rather homegrown, the child of mutants
that live below the surface of NYC in the year 3000.
Turangalila is the name of a symphony written by french composer
Olivie Messiaen between 1946 and 48, a bit like a counterreaction
to the 1930's Pluto and Lilith and the war.
Turanga and Lila are Sanskrit words, "together meaning something
like 'love song and hymn of joy, time, movement, rythm, life and
death' (source: wikipedia, follow link above).
A few days ago I saw a concert in Montreal by Maxime Morin (born
1966/6/6) that took place July 5th/05, all in the rain (Aquarius)
with several "songs" flowing into each other, mixed with other
impressions. The recent album "Chill 'Em All" has 11 songs on it.
Brno is a city in what is now Slovakia, Milan Kundera was born
there, as well as Vera Linhartova, and Miroslav Tichy near there.
The first two have the sun in Aries.
I went to an exposition of the photos of Miroslav Tichy at Zurich's
Kunsthaus Friday afternoon, almost random photos of women that he
took with self-made cameras during the cold war. Tarzan in Pension.
The exhibition did not impress me much, at least not compared to
what I had already seen on the web, but the shop at the Museum did
bring me into contact with Murakami's superflat postmodern art.
Vera Linhartova's "Geschichten ohne Zusammenhang" (stories without
connections) was published in 1965 in german. I only read the first
story, a description of a building that reminded me both of the
12th house in astrology and of the temple of Amun in Karnak near
Luxor (I had a discussion Wednesday with my parents which one was
the more beautiful one to them when they visited in 1964 or so).
Vera Linhartova, emigrated to Paris (like Kundera) has also written
a book called "Dadaism and Surrealism in Japan".
Heracles' 11th task is related to friendship in a peculiar way: He
did relieve Atlas from his burden of carrying the world, but only
for a short time. That is what friends do, they can make fate a bit
lighter to bear, but switching places is not really an option.
At the end of the labour, apparently everything is back to where it
was before, Atlas is again carrying the world, Hera got her 3 apples
back via Athene, but one tiny detail has changed:
The dragon at the foot of the tree (like at Yggdrasil) is now dead.
The babylonian epic Gilgamesh (Age of Aries) with much older roots
(Sumerian, Age of Taurus; Iranian, Age of Gemini), well, it exists.
Astrological houses, it appears, because they are about Earth and
Air, are static, are tasks, like Heracles' labours or levels in a
video game. Conversely, the signs of the zodiac would be flowing,
would be about Fire and Water, about a path and feelings.
That might imply freedom and restrictions of a different kind when
relating to signs or houses. Gilgamesh learns a lot in the 11 clay
tablets.
The king is related to Saturn and Leo.
Liz Greene's introduction in her book "Saturn - A new look at an old
Devil" is a good example of the duality inherent in Saturn. Although
for all appearances, she consciously mainly associates Saturn with
its current female and only only ruler Capricorn, here associations
with esoteric levels etc. describe the male side indirectly, too.
Reminds of Robert Hand's talk about the Sepher Yetzirah, which was
apparently based on "Astrology by Hand Week 22", see list here:
http://www.stariq.com/AstrologyByHandLib.HTM
In article 25, in which I find he had a particularly lucky hand (a
hand has 5 fingers, 25 = 5 x 5) he describes the relation between
passages of fixed stars at the winter solistice, which I found due
to John Roth's recent remarks at aam. He talks about Ceasars there,
and their relation to Sagittarius.
The first Ceasar, Julius, is related to the home island of his clan,
namely the island Iulis, with its famous lion sculpture (cf. post
about Hestia last year).
The year 1270, where the first star in the arrow of the archer passed,
relates to Wilhelm Tell (and Batman, too).
Angels.
He also mentions Ophiuchus, the constellation where the Quaoar was
found, is holding the serpent "of nuclear power"; in 1942, the year
Robert Hand was born, the first start of the serpent passed the
winter solistice, in 2017 (i.e. quite soon), the last will pass.
Neptune had 5 pairs of twin brothers (5 x 2 = 10) and the cyclope
in the Odyssey was his son. Leela is a cyclope.
Planet Xena is speculated to have its titled orbit (44 degrees, 4x11
and also close to 1/8 of the circle) due to interaction with Neptune.
Xena, like Hercules, has a companion, the "teenage which". In an
episode of the Simpsons, Lucy Lawless always says that she is Lucy
Lawless, not Xena, also when she flies away with Bart in the end.
Turanga Leela, determined, but also a bit insecure and nice.
Some more hints:
- 7/7 and Hegira (synstry, Lilith, Pluto, Aries, nodes)
- current sextile between n.node and Neptune
- all my recent posts, see http://www.exactphilosophy.net/posts/yoda.zip
(Lilith, Pluto, Mars, houses, Hera, space, Venus, Virgo, and so on...)
- so much Aries (n.node, Quaoar)
- make your own :)
)o+
skytten.fox@online.no (Keera Ann Fox) wrote:
: J S <somerelief@webtv.net> wrote:
:
: > It would be nice if the name that sticks is extremely benign, something
: > with all kinds of positive implications, something we haven't had since
: > Jupiter (and I wonder about him).
: >
: > Especially after Pluto, we could use a break.
:
: I'm sort of leaning towards Diana, the goddess of hunting (not the
: princess of Wales). But now that I think it may be confused with Lady
: Di, perhaps Hera or Athena?
Here are few attempts to narrow down the possibilities.
I am assuming that this will be considered the 10th planet,
if not, a prediction seems less necessary anyway.
Two planets have so far retained full dual rulership:
- Venus (Taurus and Libra)
- Mercury (Gemini and Virgo)
Since Venus is female and Mercury is male, I judge it much
more likely that Venus will keep Taurus (female element Earth)
and Mercury will keep Gemini (male element Air). This leaves
two options for a rulership of the 10th planet:
Virgo or Libra
Before I look at arguments for these two, let me try to narrow
things a bit more from a different angle.
According to Mike Brown at his site about the "10th planet",
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/index.html
they have proposed the name of "some figure in a creation
mythology". He does not say whether that will be a male god
or a female goddess, but the internal name "Xena" and the
name of the site "planetlila" suggest slightly a goddess.
Since they want the International Astronomical Union (IAU),
and later the public, to approve of their choice, it is likely
a deity from a large culture, say India or China, or ancient
Egypt or Sumeria. It might also be a deity that is relatively
well known.
Arguments for a Virgo rulership:
- According to the updated site of Mike Brown (link above),
the sudden choice to publish was due to the fact that the
log files of who observed which parts in the sky could be
found simply by googling for them. Read the full and very
interesting story there. What is important here, is the
mercurial aspect of it, the smell of an attempt to cheat
(Earth, Virgo; besides, obviously, retrograde Mercury).
- Mike Brown writes that they would have liked to use the
name "Persephone", if it had not been taken yet.
- The hastily arranged press conference to announce the
discovery took place 29 July 2005 at 4 pm. Assuming that
it took place in Pasadena CA, the MC would be in Virgo.
Arguments for a Libra rulership:
- The last planet that lost a rulership was Mars. It would
be more symmetrical, if Venus now lost one too and Mercury
has a dual nature that would fit with a dual rulership.
Besides, planets have lost rulership in order of increasing
closeness to the sun (Saturn, then Jupiter, then Mars).
- The involvment of Google hints at the generation with
Pluto in Libra.
- The rest of the argument is mainly based on the topics of
recent discussions here: Let me assume that the chosen
name will be Ma'at, ancient Egyptian goddess of truth and
justice.
- Liz Greene associates her with Libra; Jupiter is now in
Libra (at a sextile to Quaoar).
- She weighs the hearts of the deceased against their sins
and she has wings. This relates jer to the current placement
of Mean Black Moon Lilith (wings) in Leo (heart).
- Her issues are very much related to Earth and Air.
- She is not directly a creation godess, but gods to pray
to her and without her, the world would cease to exist.
That is all I have time for (my holidays are over and I am
not a professional astrologer).
If I had to decide now, I would lean towards Libra rulership
and the name Ma'at (neither Ma'at nor Maat appear to be taken
according to the list at Astrodienst) or another name with a
somewhat similar symbolism.
However, since this was certainly not a careful and deep look
into all possibilities and it a happened only in a single head
(mine), it is not unlikely that the world will find a better
fit to current symbols and other restrictions.
Besides, my record of predicting anything is a disaster...
)o+
--
We are all made of Gogol's Coat -- Dostojewski
Keera Ann Fox wrote:
: > Since Venus is female and Mercury is male,
:
: Mercury is neutral/genderless. You must be thinking of Mars.
No, I was only a bit imprecise; I meant to write "Since Venus is
a female goddess and Mercury is a male god". I am, of course,
aware of the duality inherent in Mercury in astrology.
At least the origins of Greek Hermes, which I also had in mind,
are certainly quite male:
: Originally Hermes was a phallic god, being attached to fertility and good
: fortune, and also a patron of roads and boundaries. His name coming from
: herma, the plural being hermai, meaning "pile of marker stones". A herm
: was a square or rectangular pillar in either stone or bronze, with the
: head of Hermes (usually with a beard), which adorned the top of the pillar,
: and male genitals near to the base of the pillar. These were used for road
: and boundary markers.
-- http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hermes.html
: > I judge it much
: > more likely that Venus will keep Taurus (female element Earth)
: > and Mercury will keep Gemini (male element Air). This leaves
: > two options for a rulership of the 10th planet:
:
: > Virgo or Libra
:
: Some have already assigned Chiron to Virgo.
:
: Me, I'm happy to leave things as they are. I'll still assign Mars to
: Scorpio when I look at a chart, and I certainly don't think a planet we
: can't even see without computers should be co-ruler of any sign. Doesn't
: make sense to me to do that.
I make a distinction between rulership of signs and the planets.
In my experience Uranus to Pluto have clearly a strong influence
in birth charts as well as in transit etc. But as far as rulership
is concerned, I agree insofar as the old rulers fit better and
thinking, say, of Mars only as Aries is generally less fruitful
than thinking of Aries *and* Scorpio. I still do link, say, Pluto
also to some degree to Scorpio, rather than to any other sign.
)o+
kjelleman wrote:
: Hermes wrote:
: > Arguments for a Virgo rulership:
:
: > - According to the updated site of Mike Brown (link above),
: > the sudden choice to publish was due to the fact that the
: > log files of who observed which parts in the sky could be
: > found simply by googling for them.
[...]
: > Arguments for a Libra rulership:
: > - The involvment of Google hints at the generation with
: > Pluto in Libra.
:
: Wouldn't search engines, concerned with details as they are, be very
: much Virgo? I don't see why you associate them with Libra?
I was thinking about the two founders of Google, who were born
in 1973, one in Michigan and the other in Moscow (Russia).
On the other hand, the company Google is Virgo (7 Sep 1998).
I associate internet search machines, in general, maybe most
strongly with Pluto in Sagittarius, but not only.
)o+
I wrote:
: Imagine you have a box filled with about hundred Lego bricks.
: Half of them are red, half of them are blue. Now draw blindly
: 4 bricks and put them into a line. There are 16 possible
: results (R=red, B=blue):
:
: BBBB, BBBR, BBRB, BBRR
: BRBB, BRBR, BRRB, BRRR
: RBBB, RBBR, RBRB, RBRR
: RRBB, RRBR, RRRB, RRRR
I only noticed later that this is very similar to the western
system of geomancy, a divination system that originated in the
Middle East and possibly has African roots.
In geomancy, you typically "beat the sand", you hit the ground
a random number of times with a stick and repeat this 4 times.
For example:
||||||| [imagine marks of a stick in the sand/ground]
||||
|||||
|||
Then you distinguish odd (*) and even (**) number of lines:
*
* *
*
*
This figure, for example, is called "Puella" and is assigned
to Venus and Taurus. There are a total of 16 figures (of course)
and each of them is assigned to a planet (or a lunar node) and
to a sign.
The two figures that are "4 of the same" are called "Populus"
and "Via" and are both assigned to the moon and Cancer.
See, for example, the following link for more information about
this system, which is in practice a bit more complex, involving
four of the above figures called "mothers", from which "daughters"
and then "nephews" are derived:
http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/astro/TLOUIS4.htm
)o+
I wrote:
: Two planets have so far retained full dual rulership:
:
: - Venus (Taurus and Libra)
: - Mercury (Gemini and Virgo)
Again a quaternity (four). A fight between the elements
Air and Earth. Fits many themes that I touched recently.
)o+
LibraLove wrote:
: The new planet was conjunct my Leo Ascendant at birth and I AM a sort
: of cheesy, scrappy babe -- a blonde Amazon as it were.
:
: I did not terrorize Greece, but Lubbock, Texas and I have had to tackle
: things alone that many women require a man to help with or they'd fold.
:
:
: I am still searching for my bard friend, Gabrielle, so together we can
: seek adventure and fight the forces of evil, but even a Gabriel will
: do.
Looks like you probably mixed things up a bit :)
The new "planet" has been in Aries since the 1920's. In the ephemeris
that formalhautis posted, the new "planet" is the middle column, the
one labelled "UB313".
Things are a bit messy, because two other objects that are about half
the size of Pluto have been announced also last week (these would be
the first and third column in that ephemeris).
I would be careful with Gabriels: The archangel Gabriel in the recent
movie "Constantine" was sexually very ambivalent, maybe best described
as a female David Bowie. ;)
)o+
John Roth
: Well, let's see. Uranus - 1781 - end of the US Revolutionary War
: Neptune - 1860 - American Civil War
: Pluto - 1930 - Great Depression
: X - ?
I am more optimistic than that. At least so far, the events
that I would associate with Pluto in Sagittarius have cost
the lifes of thousands of people, not millions like World
War II, the Holocaust and Stalin's Gulags.
Sure, the danger for much more casualities by weapons of
mass destruction is scary, and has to be dealt with both
with strenght and with understanding for different views.
What I miss most from the USA at the moment, is its usual
optimism, that it always had since it was founded. Any
planet in any sign is also a chance, an opportunity, to make
something better out of it. Pluto's return to Capricorn,
for example, will be a chance to modernize some structures
that need to be.
The USA is still the melting pot of many influences and of
many dreams. It is where that a good compromise has to be
found that will apease subliminal muslim anger sufficiently
to avoid any major terror attacks.
I am confident that US optimism will return.
Enlightentment, which was at the roots of the USA, is based
for a large part on the idea that people can make up their
own destinies -- if they don't, it is their fault.
See, for example, Immanuel Kant's famous article:
http://eserver.org/philosophy/kant/what-is-enlightenment.txt
)o+
I wrote (31 July 2005):
: Since that newly discovered object is almost certainly bigger
: than Pluto, essentially only two options remain:
:
: A) Pluto remains a planet for nostalgic reasons, even though
: astronomically it would rather be classified as one of
: several Kuiper Belt Objects. In this case the new object
: would have to be declared a planet too, astronomically
: planet number 10 (Roman X); astrologically planet no. 11
: (because astrologically the moon counts as a planet too).
:
: B) Pluto looses planetary status. This would leave 8 planets
: from the point of view of astronomy (9 astrologically).
:
: Of course, astrologers could (and most likely will partially)
: also decide differently than astronomers.
Tonite I had a very short dream, rather a title line in a news
story. It said:
Putin has stepped back from power.
Sounds quite a bit less ambivalent in meaning than dreams
usually are. Sounds quite a bit like:
Pluto has stepped back from planetary status.
As far as I gather, by the end of the week an official
astronomical definition of what is a planet, is expected.
Freud viewed dreams as expression of wishes. Seems like mine
is in that direction, i.e. replace Pluto by a postmodern zoo
of Kuiper Belt Objects all over the zodiac, more like slowly
shifting stars than planets.
To what degree that is also a collective wish, rather along
Jung than Freud, remains to be seen...
)o+
Benard wrote:
: The Chinese I-Ching uses a similar system, It gets very complex once
: you go deeper.
I wrote quite a few things related to the I Ching, mainly
to alt.astrology.tropical, in the past.
In my view, there are quite a few interesting relations
between the 4+1 elements in the West (Fire, Air, Water,
Earth, and the 5th element "Ether") and the 8 hexagrams
of the I Ching. I also see similar relations to the 9x9
parts of the Tao Te Ching and the 6x6 Chinese Stratagems
of War.
At the moment, the material is quite a bit scattered on
my web site. Some basics, albeit in a very condensed form
are here:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/
The basic idea is that the 8 hexagrams represent two times
the Western elements. There is Fire in resting and moving
form (fire and thunder), Air in resting and moving form
(sky and wind), etc.
The role that the fifth element has in the West, is assumed
in China by the duality of both a resting and a moving form
of the elements in the I Ching.
I number elements as follows, for many reasons (no space here
to expose them all or only the most crucial):
1 - Fire
2 - Air
3 - Water
4 - Earth
The fifth element has the role of transforming the elements:
5 - Transformation of the elements
The four elements are transformed in the zodiac into each other.
Fire signs: Earth via Fire to Air (Aries to Leo to Sagittarius)
Air signs: Fire via Air to Water (Gemini to Libra to Aquarius)
Water signs: Earth via Water to Air (Cancer to Scorpio to Pisces)
Earth signs: Fire via Earth to Water (Taurus to Virgo to Capricorn)
(See my web site for more information on this, including how it is
linked to Aristotle's view of the four elements).
These transformations can be associated with numbers too, just
replace each element by its number above:
1 (Fire) = 4 (Earth) + 1 (Fire) + 2 (Air) = 7
2 (Air) = 1 (Fire) + 2 (Air) + 3 (Water) = 6
3 (Water) = 4 (Earth) + 3 (Water) + 2 (Air) = 9
4 (Earth) = 1 (Fire) + 4 (Earth) + 3 (Water) = 8
Or, more briefly:
6 - Transformation of Air (6=1+2+3)
7 - Transformation of Fire (7=4+1+2)
8 - Transformation of Earth (8=1+4+3)
9 - Transformation of Water (9=4+3+2)
This associates the 36 (6x6) Stratagems of War to transformation
of Air, the 64 (8x8) symbols of the I Ching to transformation of
Earth, and the 81 (9x9) parts of the Tao Te Ching to transformation
of Water.
This fits the meanings of these systems quite well (again no space
to expose it all here in this post).
It is very tempting to complete this list with:
10 - Transformation of the transformation of the elements
In other words, 10 would be sort of a meta 5th element, it would
influence how the rules for transformations between the elements
change with time.
Currently, there are 10 astrological planets, which I usually
number as follows (except for the swapped positions of Mercury to
Mars, this follows the standard order in chart drawings that goes
by orbital period except for sun and moon):
1 - Sun
2 - Moon
3 - Venus
4 - Mars
5 - Mercury
6 - Jupiter
7 - Saturn
8 - Uranus
9 - Neptune
10 - Pluto
That would link Pluto to "transformation of transformation of
elements". In other words, Pluto would be (besides possibly
other issues) about redefining and transforming the system of
astrology: Which planets rule which signs, and so on.
I remember that I had at least one very interesting discussion
with Sharyn on the subject of Pluto and transformation and also
unification in the past, which has influenced my thoughts above.
At the moment, all the material is scattered on my site (and in
Google's usenet archives).
Link to the 36 Stratagems of War (since they may be less well
known than I Ching and Tao Te Ching):
http://www.pipeline.com/~tkd-pix/36_strat.htm
By the way, does anybody know of something that comes in 49
i.e. in 7 x 7 parts ? If my model is correct to that degree,
that would have to be something that is somehow related to
the element Fire.
)o+
I:I :I:
But if the little fox,
after nearly completing the crossing,
gets his tail in the water,
there is nothing that would further
the best is now just to wait
Re: Lucy Lawless - Xena
LibraLove wrote:
: Thanks, Hermes. I see my confusion now in the table by fomalhautis.
:
: So it is EL61that sitting is on my Asc. and the Xena (warrior princess)
: is exactly square my Sun in Cancer in the 11th from the 9th house.
: Jupiter on my Asc. in Leo would dispose that Sun and rules my 5th
: house. Hmnn... so they both would be important to me personally then.
:
: I wonder if Xena in the 9th square my Sun could be an example of the
: time I brought my African-American lawyer to my son's fancy-pancy rich
: neighborhood, all-white school district and threatened them if they
: didn't stop abusing him and me. I had a vice-principal call and harrass
: me daily because I am a sole femme. Sole femme in Texas = fair game.
:
: My son has an hispanic surname, as do I, by virtue of his father's
: Brazillian heritage. We live off the "wrong street" in the school
: district. At one point one of my son's counselors came over expecting
: us to live in a fallen down trailer like some of our neighbors down the
: road and exclaimed out loud, "Oh wow. You live in a nicer house than I
: do!"
:
: I think we were targeted because I was alone (no man with a shotgun
: standing behind me), and we had hispanic surnames, and lived off the
: "wrong side of the tracks", so I had to go into battle regularly and
: continued to do so until I got my son out of the fancy pancy high
: school in the district.
:
: My son became accustomed to it -- school meetings where when they said
: something really stupid, he would look at me and start sliding slowly
: out of his chair in case he had to duck under the table when the fur
: started to fly. LOL
:
: Hmnn... about Gabriel. Don't think I have ever known anyone BUT
: sexually ambivalent men (except maybe one or two), and none have agreed
: to stand behind me with a shotgun here in Texas.
I guess this is very much an Earth vs. Air issue.
A few weeks ago, I read in the newspaper about an experiment that
had been done with 3 groups of men: men that considered themselves
either heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual. They were shown sex
movies with only men or only women (if I remember correctly there
were no mixed movies). While they were watching, the researchers
measured how much their penises would swell in response to what
they saw in the movies.
The result was quite interesting: There was a group that responded
to naked women and a group that responded to naked men, but nobody
that responded to both men and women.
So, there was an obvious discrepancy between the conscious minds of
these men, in other words, Air, and the physical reactions of their
bodies, in other words, Earth.
At the Astrology World Congress 2004 in Basel, I was at a talk by
Michael Lutin, astrologer and showman and, obviously and according
to his own words, with sexually ambivalent preferences.
He showed several pictures that he assigned to Saturn in the signs.
The one for Saturn in Libra was the following, in my memory:
A man in blue-white or red-white striped pajamas is lying in bed,
facing the observer of the image. His eyes are open and the clock
at his bed reads 3 (AM, I guess). There is also a woman in the bed,
facing away from the observer.
As Michael Lutin remarked, the pajamas indicate that the guy in the
image is likely not having an affair here.
My interpretation is that the guy is gay. Being gay entails lots of
difficult decisions, that either satisfy the Earth or the Air. If
he takes a woman as a partner, he can have children, a family and
also otherwise a generally respected life. So Air would be happy.
But at least his earthy side, would very much prefer a male partner.
I guess this is also why gay marriage is such an important issue for
gay men, because it would make things easier, would satisfy both Air
and Earth, to some degree.
In the newspaper report that I mentioned, they also reported results
from similar experiments with women. There the result was completely
different: All women became physically equally excited, no matter
whether they saw men or women or both, and no matter whether they
considered themselves heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual.
This hints at some bias inherent in the experimental setup. I guess
an experiment where the women would be naked and some men or women
would look at them and/or otherwise interact with them, would show
more differentiated results.
In that light, also what I wrote above might have to be relativated.
For me, as a heterosexual man, images of naked women are certainly
exciting (especially with sun and moon in Fire signs), while naked
men are a clear turn-off. But whether pictures alone are of similar
importance for homosexual or bisexual men, is another question, that
I certainly cannot fully answer.
Which is stronger, Earth or Air ?
Very difficult to say. Air is "man-made", is the result of culture,
remains only strong and active if it is consciously maintained to
be so. Earth is natural and passive. In that sense, since Earth
needs less energy to stay as it is, Earth is likely stronger.
About Gabriel: I now remember a discussion at alt.astrology.tropical
in early 2004, where I came to the name Gabriel, as the first name
of one of the four prosecutors in the early 1960's trials in Israel
against Adolf Eichmann. I guess very much an issue that can only be
approached with realism and a high ability of abstraction.
Gabriel and Michael (Lutin's first name) are names of two of the
four archangels, the ones assigned to Water and Fire, respectively.
I associate elements and angles (<=> angels), as follows, for many
reasons that I have too little space here to expose:
AC - Fire
MC - Air
DC - Water
IC - Earth
(See also http://www.exactphilosophy.net/book/ )
Angels are, of course, also important in "New Age" esoteric stuff.
Thus they are related to the Age of Aquarius. Aquarius is an Air
sign, so there is a tendency to exaggerate Air relative to Earth.
And the opposing sign, Leo, tends to exaggerate visual aspects in
sexuality.
Anyway, although the above certainly contains interesting insights,
it is by no means exhaustive or conclusive. And it is biased by me.
You wrote "in the 11th from the 9th house". I remember that Heather
used that way of relative counting of houses (right?). Are you
applying her idea or is that a general concept in astrology ?
)o+
Three more to go...
Two more to go...
50'000
LibraLove wrote:
: To further relate to the symbolism of names with Sonia Braga in one of
: her most famous movies "Gabriela" (feminine for Gabriel), which you
: call sexually ambivalent. Seems like it may fit her well.
:
: http://ofcs.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-1008043/reviews.php?critic=movies&sortby=default&page=1&rid=1311112
:
: But even so she plays highly sexual hetero women until the recent "Sex
: in the City".
:
: My astrocartography Venus line goes through Rio, where my last husband
: was born and lived. After hearing a great Astrocartography seminar in
: NYC, I had thought of traveling to Rio for the purpose of finding a
: lover. But I met my husband from Rio on the beach in NY a year or so
: later.
:
: My original middle name and the one my mother used for me was "Gay"
: which took on new symbolism June 28, 1969, Gay Pride day began. It is
: also my birthday, June 28th. I attended one of the first Gay Pride days
: in Central Park with my best friend who was gay. My first lover in
: college became gay after he came back from VietNam, but I married an
: eventual sequential monogamist of 5 women when I was 20 years old. It
: only lasted 2 years for me and I have had only 2 husbands with another
: 20 years later.
:
: Then in NYC when I had problems with my name being perceived as an
: adjective, I change it to Gae which rings to the asteroid and goddess,
: Gaea.
:
: http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/mythology/gaea.html
:
: http://www.thanasis.com/gaea.htm
:
: I became an astrologer and focused on marriages and realtionships. My
: second marriage was a man 20 years younger and 20 years after my first
: marriage. My present lover is younger as well. I fit in some ways the
: myth of Gaea. I do not have sex with my son as Gaea did with Uranus to
: give birth to the rains and rivers and seas, but I prefer much younger
: men. Basically, because we can share similar interests and music.
:
: I grow plants and gardens and ponds. I rescue and help animals and I
: have a younger lover (but now middle aged) and probably always will be
: with a much younger man, if this one moves on. Partly this is due to
: astrology -- with a middle Leo Ascendant -- how many astrologers would
: chose to have a partner with Pluto sitting on their Ascendant at 14 Leo
: or their Mar-Jupiter conjunction in the 1st house at 21-24 Leo? So men
: near my age and slightly younger won't work because of this.
:
: My son has been concerned about my name, "Gay" or "Gae" and thinks it
: has to do with his having a gay father. It sounds as if symbolism fits
: reality, then this is possible? I am not Gabriela, however, LOL, so he
: need not worry about my becoming a lesbian, but the lover will always
: be much younger, as in the myth of Gaea.
:
: The death of that young Brazilian man was so painful to me. He looked
: and seemed so innocent and helpless under the circumstances, like a
: puppy shot down for no reason, It made me ill to hear of the
: circumstances and see his picture. Brazilians in general are very
: sweet and innocent people from my experience of all the relatives I
: have been connected to through marriage of my ex.
Thanks a lot for these posts.
You are certainly a very talented astrologer. My sun is at 14 Leo.
My MC is at 14 Aries, conjunct moon and Chaos at 17 Aries, and now
also conjunct "Xena" at 11 Aries.
What I never understood, was what was behind those fights with
Sharyn. But, I guess, as a man, some aspects of female catfights
will always remain a mystery to me.
Best wishes, too.
)o+
--
The attribute "Gabriel" is also linked quite a bit to Quaoar:
: The Tongva people (sometimes called the San Gabrielino Native
: Americans) inhabited the Los Angeles area before the arrival
: of the Spanish and other European people. The name "Quaoar"
: (pronounced kwah-o-wahr) comes from their creation mythology.
-- http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar/
mandygold (amandagoldberg21@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
: Liz Greene PhD. Sophia Centre Bath Spa University's Director, Nicholas
: Campion, could tell me nothing when I wrote to him to ask about Liz
: Greene's bona fides (doctorate degree)a few weeks ago. Recently has
: written to me out of the clear blue sky so I will share what he told
: me. Thank you, Nick Campion! He has written,
:
: I took a look at Dave Roell's web site. I understand Liz's PhD is
: from the University of Los Angeles, a small university
: which closed in the early '90s.
"The Astrology of Fate" (Weiser, 1984) contains information
from her side about when she started to study at university
and that it was not in Boston (p. 272-74).
When Pluto was discovered, it was believed to be about the
size of Earth. Then its size gradually diminished and now
it is clear that Pluto is merely one object of several, if
not many, of similar size beyond Neptune.
This shows clearly that astrology is mainly collective and
individual imagination. What people believed about Pluto,
namely that it was a genuine planet beyond Neptune, has
quite obviously shaped the great psychological impact that
Pluto can have in birth charts and in transit.
It was Liz Greene, or at least she is usually credited with
that (I guess righteously so), who picked up what C.G. Jung
had started, namely to look at astrology mainly as a tool
for understanding the human psyche. So, it will probably not
come as a surprise if the stations in her life are clearly
connected to the Saturn-Pluto cycle.
I guess when these two were in opposition early in the 1930s,
Saturn was not well prepared for a fight. They were conjunct
when Liz Greene was born in 1946, and in opposition when she
met Isabel Hickey in 1966. It seems obvious that Saturn had
no chance to crush Pluto already then, because of the Uranus-
Pluto conjunction of that time (Uranus is a real, big planet).
Her book "The Astrology of Fate", which is effectively her
Ph.D. in astrology/psychology, appeared in 1984, i.e. it was
likely written around Saturn-Pluto conjunct in 1982.
(Side remark: For those who don't know, I am to Liz Greene,
what she was to Isabel Hickey; I met my fate, a Czech girl
born in March 1965, i.e. Saturn opposite Pluto, in 1981 and
fell in love with her in 1982 (conjunction). Her nodes are
conjunct the ones of Liz Greene and there is also a strong
emphasis (an even stronger one than for Liz Greene) on the
axis Pisces-Virgo. This is most likely why Liz Greene's
work attracted me so much.)
So, in 2001, maybe one should have been prepared for a big
fight between Pluto and Saturn, this time with Saturn well
ready to fight. The project to find new objects/planets in the
Kuiper-Belt that has, so far, yielded Quaoar, Orcus, "Xena",
"Santa", etc., was apparently started in autumn 2001, i.e.
with Saturn-Pluto in opposition.
It was these discoveries of new objects, among other events,
of course, that have now lead to effectively a defeat of Pluto
and also to a realisation that our wishes about planets have
quite a bit to do with what effects they have down here on
our daily lives on planet earth.
This brings me to science.
Lots of people are interested in the life of Einstein besides
the science, in the fates of his women and children, etc.
But, not matter what people could discover about Einstein -
say that he maybe had no Ph.D. or stole his discoveries from
another physicist - could have any impact on the formulas that
he has discovered, *because* they were objectively verified
in nature by quantitative experiments.
In astrology, things are different. Because there are no
scientifically verified models in astrology, anybody can claim
to be superman or superwoman. A fitting time now to say this,
in light of Saturn in Leo, where one has to fight to be special
or to claim to have contributed something special. Liz Greene,
although having certainly an aura of "superior remoteness", is
also suffering from her natal Saturn in Leo, so that even though
she sold many books, she is, unlike Robert Hand, still in a very
peculiar way not taken for full by many astrologers.
Because there is no objective way to tell apart good and not so
special in astrology, the personalities of famous people in
astrology come more to focus. Since it is very difficult to tell
apart in their works what is natural and what is merely their
own bias, but of no particular importance to most people, it is
more likely that astrologers become investigated from angles that
scientist probably would not be, at least in most cases.
So, once more: Science is what astrology needs most.
Of course, everything can be relativated concerning what I wrote
here: There is never full objectivity in anything, only different
levels of broadness in agreement, in which science certainly beats
anything else. I just read today in the newspaper that one of the
asteroids between Mars and Jupiter, the one called Sylvia after
the mother of the twins Romulus and Remus, has now two moons that
have been found orbiting it (only asteroid with two moons). It
has now been proposed to name the moons Romulus and Remus. So,
in last consequence, astrology is not only a collective human
creation, although this is its strongest immediate component,
but also still something natural and very mysterious...
What do I think about Liz Greene and her Ph.D. ? I don't know;
what I know is that the surface is very thin in Los Angeles and
that, in order to write a book about Fate, one has to know what
fate is. But this is just speculation. What I know for certain,
though, is that she made important contributions to astrology.
)o+
--
Click below, if you dare to approach a Saturn-Pluto opp. ;)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Christine wrote:
: Her "Astrology of Fate" appears to have had a large impact on you, as you
: often mention it in your posts.
: Are you as familiar with her other works?
Sure. At least with most of them. None of them
lives up to "The Astrology of Fate".
However, since astrology has no scientific core,
yet, that amounts at the moment merely to my
personal opinion, without further weight.
Of course, any book or other work is also very
much the result of the relations and environment
of the time it emerges. "The Astrology of Fate"
is dedicated to a "John", if I am not mistaken.
Those "environmental factors" deserve credit, too.
)o+
I wrote:
: When Pluto was discovered, it was believed to be about the
: size of Earth. Then its size gradually diminished and now
: it is clear that Pluto is merely one object of several, if
: not many, of similar size beyond Neptune.
:
: This shows clearly that astrology is mainly collective and
: individual imagination. What people believed about Pluto,
: namely that it was a genuine planet beyond Neptune, has
: quite obviously shaped the great psychological impact that
: Pluto can have in birth charts and in transit.
I guess, I should note that this is, in my estimation, of no
practical importance for interpreting charts. US movies, for
example, will remain quite plutonic in the near future.
However, on a time scale of decades, it would astonish me,
if Pluto's effect would not become considerally weaker.
This does not mean, obviously, that there will no longer be
fate...
By the way, about movies. Star Wars Episode III was, as far
as I know, the first movie that was delivered broadly in
digital form from set/actors to movie screen. Symbolically,
this means that movies of the 21st century will be less
Neptunian, and especially moonless, since the silver that
is used for film and photography will no longer be part of
the process (replaced mainly by silicon).
Again, this is very much a Jupiter in Libra comment. It will
likely be discarded any direct impact on this Jupiter cycle
and likely only unfold in later cycles. I will certainly not
opose that.
There is a saying in German that one does not eat as hot as
one does cook. This applies very much to my recent posts, but
I also felt that some "Uranus in Pisces" dyonisian exaggeration
would in the end rather do good than harm to people. Please
show me that I am right with this assumption, not wrong.
Fighting for something only hardens the views of the ones
involved. Science is helpful there too, because every now
and then, experimental results confront the scientists with
their own limitations. That is a very healthy experience
and, unfortunately, this is very much missing in astrology.
One more, final practical advice in this last usenet post by
me (you got to walk out on Pluto/Hades, there is no other way):
Since astrology works largely by unconscious emotional feedback
from other people, getting involved with astrologers increases
and also biases the emotional forces that one feels, especially
if one enters such a place as usenet. One should be very careful
when to get into that and when rather to just live...
I no longer own any books on astrology (since quite a few months)
and intend not to look back into usenet ever. This is also part
of ending the cycle that ended in 1982. I want a new love. And
I want to do science again, real and verifiable stuff.
With Saturn in Leo and Jupiter still in Libra, it might just work
this time. In fact, it most likely will. I will read potential
replies to this post this christmas, not earlier.
* User-Agent: R2-D2
* Subject: Yoda in Episode III
* Message-ID: <yoda050522092754@dagobath>
* Organization: (none)
* From: yoda <yoda@dagobath>
* Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
* Date: 22 May 2005 09:25:31 +0200
Not much green there was on screen.
Black, red, yellow, also blue and white,
but almost no green. Emphasize the value
of what is green and natural, it did.
Prologue
Question: Why does a mirror only switch left and right,
but not up and down ?
(Say, you are holding up a glass of water in your right
hand. Then your "twin" in the mirror will be holding up
a glass of water in his/her left hand. Why is only left
and right switched, but not up and down ?)
To some people the answer to this will be obvious, some
will not understand the question and probably most will
be a bit puzzled. Anyway, this is essentially a test of
how narcissistic you are. Solution at the bottom...
The Mathematics of Relationships
Fate is essentially based on a few very basic concepts.
For example, being the second daughter and not the first,
having brown eyes or not, the age difference when you
meet someone, etc. Of course, often one thinks (at least
I do) that such things can be overcome by love, and, yet,
helas, in the end things turn out exactly as predicted
by the simple math of fate.
In my experience, mathematics attracts women more than
physics, most likely because mathematics is not concerned
with observable nature, but with pure mental constructs.
In the female sense, mathematics is an extreme form of
psychology, a plutonic/scorpionic approach to it.
This wednesday, for me a relation finally ended that had
started more than 20 years ago, in spring (likely May) of
1982, at around 10 AM that day. It ended 2 November 2005,
around maybe 11 PM.
When I met her, I was 15 and she was 17, which was likely
the most important fundamental factor why we could not get
together then. Let me cut things short. In 1998, when I
called her, she was living in foreign city, married and
mother of a son. Again, the essentials are obvious; she
is bound there, at the very least due to her son, and I
am, as it is now perfectly obvious to me, not the person
who could simply move to a foreign city and live there.
And, yet, every time that I tried to end this relation,
the first time maybe in 1990, destroying everything that
reminded me of the relation and trying to forget did not
work out; the feeling simply remained.
In order to explain how I could finally still end it in a
way that is also satisfying and harmonic to both sides,
I need to ruminate on the very rich and universal myth of
Narcissus, and there essentially only on how he died.
Narcissus wants to drink from a fountain (or so), his head
approaches the water, he sees the image of a beautiful man
(himself) and falls in love with the image. I guess there
are variations, but he dies essentially when he recognizes
himself in the water mirror.
Now, let me try to analyze - not the easiest thing to do
when Uranus is in Pisces. Which signs of the zodiac end
things ? Well, mutable signs do, so that the cardinal ones
get free space to create new things. And there are three
transitions child-adult-old and back to child at the end
of the water signs Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. Since only
one of these is mutuable, the best single image for how
Narcissus dies, is Pisces.
(Since Scorpio has to learn to evolve rather towards Pisces
and away from the protected shell of Cancer, this is also
an important theme for Scorpio, which is also why the theme
came up at this time with sun and Jupiter entering Scorpio.)
The coincidence of making something conscious and it dying
(vanishing) at the same time is a very deep and mysterious
one. I will not investigate it here.
But this way of making conscious, of realizing things, can
be used quite practically to make something disappear that
in the end simply could not have the future it implicitly
wishes to have.
Trying to end a relation by trying to understand it, is not
something that works, at least not so in most cases. One of
the reasons for this is again a very simple and fundamental,
a mathematical one. A single person has a birth chart. With
the 10 usual astrological planets (sun to Pluto), there are
9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 45 possible aspects between them. In a
relation, if it really is a union, you get more charts, the
one of your partner, the moment your met, a composite chart
and, maybe most importantly, a synastry chart.
People usually reduce orbs when drawing synastry charts,
because otherwise they seem too complex to comprehend, since
they allow for up to 10x10 = 100 aspects between planets.
So, no, analysis is no way out of a relation. Pisces, not
Virgo (analysis) can end a relation for good. The idea is
very simple, like the situation of a baby in the birth
channel that is about to be born. From a certain point on,
there is no more turning back, there is only a way forward.
In my personal case, this consisted of learning astrology
after 1998, of writing down my findings (or rather ours,
or the ones of the relation), publishing them and then to
post for more than three years to usenet, and now it could
end, because it has become obvious that the relation, no
matter how fruitful its outcome had been previously, has
now nothing fruitful left to be realized; it is fulfilled.
It took a while to let that realization manifest itself,
but now it ended. Very simply.
In order to protect the innocent and limit mutual contact,
I have left out almost all details and will only evolve my
site very slowly now, only between X-mas and New Year.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Elementary models of nature, by a Swiss physicst.
Epilogue
Solution to mirror riddle: The mirror switches neither up
and down nor left and right. Take a closer look: You are
holding the glass of water in your right hand. The image
you see in the mirror has a glass to the right too; only
if you identify with the "person" in the mirror (which is
possible because people are mostly left-right symmetrical)
only if you realize what Narcissus had realized, do you
become a vicitim to this riddle.
If you were semi-transparent, you would not fall for the
symmetry, though, because then you would be able to see
your heart beating on only one side of the body.
KONEC
PS: Yesterday, I went to see the movie "Pride and Prejudice"
and liked it a lot. The main actress (Keera Knighley) carries
many of the fundamental/mathematical attributes of Pavlina,
like the color of her hair and eyes, her stature and also
some of her ways. The relation with Pavlina ended gently,
after feeling her very extremely terse the recent weeks.
Christine wrote:
: And can you willingly let it go as simply?
I did. And this time it worked. Quite astonishingly to me
it worked so quickly and now the feeling is gone, for the
first time in about 20 years. Sure, to some people this
relation mostly at a distance will have seemed merely a
projection of many other things onto a single person. But
it isn't (although like in any relation such projections
formed also an important part of what made the relation
beautiful), but I cannot prove this (nor is anybody able
to disprove it), maybe most like Cordelia's situation in
Kierkegaard's Diary of a Seducer. Pure quantum mechanics.
No wonder Niels Bohr was from Denmark, like the mentioned
philosopher and also Hans-Christian Andersen. The melusine
disappears once you investigate the core of the relation.
I would have preferred otherwise and in a swiss way, this
end was much gentler and harmonic than in the fairy tales.
Mutable endings (i.e. real endings) seldom come with a
clear announcement. Whatever transits there may be then,
they are often more an excuse for the sum of events that
took place usually in small bytes during years. Even in
my case the most prominent transit (lunar nodes in Aries
to composite moon and also my MC, the main public voice
of the relation) seems more like an acceleration than
really a cause. Sure, there was a square of Lilith to
Chiron at the beginning of the relation (her Jupiter and
my northern node too), but such transits happen at least
once every year or more. And there were reflections, like
Pisces always "do" when things end for good. They connect
them to other things with similar symbolism, but with no
or much less direct connection to what is ending, to ease
the transition by giving it a meaning. For example, the
day that I posted, Liz Greene was giving a seminar about
"Chiron in Love", about Chiron's more than average being
present when love starts and ends, which is understandable
because Chiron can read the subtle signs of when an end
is about to come often earlier than others. Or that I
doubly misspelled Keira Knightley's name (and you, a bit
like Echo in the myth of Narcissus, the name of Mr. Darcy)
does not mean that there was too much of a direct link to
Keera (the way I misspelled Keira) Ann Fox who stopped to
post here (although apparently still frequently posting to
other groups). There was even less of a direct connection
to Ray Murphy (another Sagittarius), who I hope(!) chose
simply to stop to post, like Zeus or Chiron would do.
Assuming that he will not post again, I want to say that
he was certainly not the most receptive poster also in
my perception (although hardly anybody posting to usenet
can be called receptive and investing much time into what
others have written). And, yet, unexpected as Jupiter is,
and with great overview, he was also the only person who
was able to perceive at least some of the value of my
elementary model of the zodiac, which describes the 12
signs by transitions between the elements. He recognized
at least in that instance what even much more famous
people like Robert Hand and others were not able to.
Cudos, Ray!
I know the landscape has pretty much changed here; only
a few people of the "old generation" have remained here.
Christine, you seem to have chosen to stick around; I hope
there will be many interesting visitors to your garden here,
altough in the near future with Saturn in Leo, originals
and also original posts are likely to be a bit more rare
and punctual than usual.
Can you resist to reply to this post, just for once ? :)
I would appreciate it a lot. And thanks your time here.
So long everybody,
Alain
PS: Everybody, visit me from time to time at my web site,
if you like :)
My posts are now essentially no longer archived by Google,
at my request. An archive copy is available at my site.
Here is a quick summary of the most unique ideas contained
in the posts (624 posts; ideas to be weaved into the main
content of my site in the years to come):
- The idea that in/out can be identified with dry/wet in
the way that Aristotle used these opposites to define
the four elements (using also hot/cold).
- The pan-cultural idea that the 4+1 elements in the west
are closely related to the 8 hexagrams of the I Ching
- The idea that meanings of astrological houses can be
derived from the meanings of "house" and the associated
number (1-12)
- My best idea: Space (in/out) and rest/move (time) define
the four elements (i.e. show that they are not merely a
cultural invention, but a fundamental property of nature).
Free will / fate can be identified with the 5th element
(or the duality of the 4 elements in the I Ching)
Special thanks to Pete, Sharyn and DJ for their remarks
that have helped me to get to this idea (and to others
for adding to the creative background in several ways)
- [physics] The Gedankenexperiment that combines the EPR
experiment with two of Schroedinger's cats, or Wigner's
friends, and decoherence in quantum mechanics
Posters in general have been thanked several times previously.
Thanks to the moderators of aam and aat who made it possible
for me to publicly evolve these ideas that make free use of
very specialized knowledge from widely diverse fields.
In order to be able to prove at a later time that my posts
contained the mentioned ideas, here are cryptographic hashes
of the archive copy "usenet.txt" (DOS line breaks, line break
after last line; contains 624 usenet posts, all by me):
MD5:
FF398B9C B97E44B6 B500D03D 0278F177
SHA-1:
62F039E4 CFFC67D2 8F11F4E3 A1502888 78F2AB78
SHA-512:
09AA17FA AA4F78FE 31C1ABDD 0C8C4CF7
D35BBC9B A6EB7EC6 42CC7224 0F40D05B
A7B267E3 D08F3EF7 AA890760 242C0053
B87DAA94 84D409A1 3C02B23D 2769B1AC
I have used the following e-mail addresses:
- astalder@exactphilosophy.net (203 posts)
- hermes@exactphilosophy.net (159)
- delphi29@excite.com (11)
- alain@wei.chi (81 posts)
- astalder@webshuttle.ch (21)
- nobody@nowhere.not (11)
- alainsta@generation.net (9)
- astalder25@[my-current-internet-provider].ch (5)
- delphi29@my-deja.com (5)
- stalder@physics.mcgill.ca (4)
- wei-chi@snow.ce (2)
- alain@xphi.ch (1)
- wei-chi@adliswil.ch (1)
- yoda@dagobath (1)
- alain@exactphilosophy.net (2)
- this one (1)
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
I wrote:
: My posts are now essentially no longer archived by Google,
: at my request. An archive copy is available at my site.
.... under "Review".
: Here is a quick summary of the most unique ideas contained
: in the posts (624 posts; ideas to be weaved into the main
: content of my site in the years to come):
:
: - The idea that in/out can be identified with dry/wet in
: the way that Aristotle used these opposites to define
: the four elements (using also hot/cold).
:
: - The pan-cultural idea that the 4+1 elements in the west
: are closely related to the 8 hexagrams of the I Ching
:
: - The idea that meanings of astrological houses can be
: derived from the meanings of "house" and the associated
: number (1-12)
:
: - My best idea: Space (in/out) and rest/move (time) define
: the four elements (i.e. show that they are not merely a
: cultural invention, but a fundamental property of nature).
: Free will / fate can be identified with the 5th element
: (or the duality of the 4 elements in the I Ching)
:
: Special thanks to Pete, Sharyn and DJ for their remarks
: that have helped me to get to this idea (and to others
: for adding to the creative background in several ways)
:
: - [physics] The Gedankenexperiment that combines the EPR
: experiment with two of Schroedinger's cats, or Wigner's
: friends, and decoherence in quantum mechanics
There is one more idea that emerged while posting to usenet
that should be mentioned, too:
- The idea to use usenet for experimental tests of astrology
(use first post under a given screen name as "birth data",
check billions of posts for many properties simultaneously,
using technology somewhat similar to what Google is using)
I feel I should also briefly mention the main ideas presented
on my site:
- The 12 signs of the zodiac can be described quite precisely
in terms of transformations between the elements:
Fire: Earth by Fire to Air (fire burns wood to smoke)
Air: Fire via Air to Water (cloud makes lightning and rain)
Water: Earth via Water to Air (ice, water, vapor; river)
Earth: Fire via Earth to Water (tree, leaves-sun, roots-water)
Example: Aries is mainly Earth, Leo a balance between Earth
and Air, Sagittarius mainly Air; accordingly the wound from
the burning fire is bigger in Leo than in Aries and even
more so in Sagittarius (cf. Grail's king, Cheiron etc.)
Most of my site will be concerned with presenting this model
in a generally accessible way, with many illustrations.
- A coherent, unified description of phenomena like telepathy,
precognition, divination, astrology, etc.; i.e. a way to see
all of these as different aspects of a single mechanism.
In my view, most likely long-range emotional connections in
the way I postulate on my site (spin 1 symmetry) exist, but
even if not, the model would still be very useful, since it
does not absolutely require long-range connections.
This model will also be exposed in a (hopefully) accessible
way on my site.
- The idea to assign elements to numbers in the following way
(sort of a shell model of reality):
1 - Fire - Individual imagination
2 - Air - Logical consequences
3 - Water - Collective wishes
4 - Earth - Reality
This principle can be applied in many ways, like to seasons,
times of day (morning-afternoon-evening-night, AC-MC-IC-DC),
aspects, and in general to anything in a sequence.
(Among other things, this lead me to consider the following
numbering of planets during my usenet posts: 1-sun, 2-moon,
3-Venus, 4-Mars, 5-Mercury, 6-Jupiter, 7-Saturn, 8-Uranus,
9-Neptune, 10-Pluto. See my usenet posts "Book of Changes"
for some more interesting applications of the approach)
General tip: My site is organized like a specialized book. It
is almost certainly more fruitful to read things sequentially,
section by section, at least at a first visit.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
My astrology program Delphi for Palm OS devices (and the
open source library astrolib, which calculates planetary
positions and determines time zones) have moved to a new
place, namely they have been "insourced":
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
You can find links to download Delphi and the source code
of astrolib there. Make sure you install Delphi to main
memory and *not* to an expansion card.
(Thanks a lot to Richard Nolle for making this apparently
quite common issue public, and also to Keera Ann Fox for
bringing up the subject here.)
As far as I know, currently all Palm OS devices have Palm
OS 5.x or earlier. I am not aware of any further problems
with Delphi on these devices (just make sure you have the
current version Delphi 2.01 of May 2002).
There is already a Palm OS 6.x, but it is not used by any
actual devices and it does not look probable that it ever
will (Palm Inc. intends to switch to Windows).
Just in case you would ever hold a Palm OS 6.x device in
your hands: In its current state, the new OS 6.x does not
correctly emulate the behavior of earlier Palm OS, which
causes Delphi not to show planet and sign glyphs around
the chart wheel.
I can only recommend to try before you buy.
Maybe someone else will write a new astrology program.
With C#/.NET (or Java) such a project has certainly
become a lot easier than it was in C on Palm OS (quite
a cumbersome OS from the point of view of programming).
I enjoyed writing and providing Delphi/astrolib a lot.
Maybe I will have time to do something similar again in
the future, but only after my site has evolved into a
generally accessible tutorial for my contributions to
astrology. "Insourcing" Delphi was not something that
I did lightly and easily, but it felt necessary.
Alain Stalder (Delphi Twentine, delphi29@excite.com)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Hi everybody and Happy New Year :)
I have just updated my site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
with material about the elements (Fire, Earth, Air, Water,
and Ether/5th Element). What is different about my approach,
is that I define the elements in terms of space, time and
free will / fate and only *then* connect to ancient Greek
philosophy (and also to the Chinese I Ching).
In the next release I hope also to provide more and better
graphic material, in order to better convey these (imo)
very fascinating new ideas...
My astrology archive, containing lots of original material
about how/why astrology works, as well as more profanely
about meanings of signs, houses, aspects and planets, is
also still available for download (section "Odyssey").
Alain Stalder
There is a Woody Allen movie in which he is literally out of focus... ;)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Alain Stalder
: "Alain Stalder" <archive@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: news:archive-2875FF.14433331122005@news.bluewin.ch...
: > Hi everybody and Happy New Year :)
: >
: > I have just updated my site:
: >
: > http://www.exactphilosophy.net
: >
: > with material about the elements (Fire, Earth, Air, Water,
: > and Ether/5th Element). What is different about my approach,
: > is that I define the elements in terms of space, time and
: > free will / fate and only *then* connect to ancient Greek
: > philosophy (and also to the Chinese I Ching).
: >
: > In the next release I hope also to provide more and better
: > graphic material, in order to better convey these (imo)
: > very fascinating new ideas...
: >
: > My astrology archive, containing lots of original material
: > about how/why astrology works, as well as more profanely
: > about meanings of signs, houses, aspects and planets, is
: > also still available for download (section "Odyssey").
: >
: > Alain Stalder
: >
:
: Well, teaser, I'm to wait until 2007 now , eh?....:)
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/associative.html
primus wrote:
: This interesting thought experiment is based on the classical double
: slit experiment.
:
: First you record (without observing) the which-way information of each
: particle at the slits, and the particle landing point information at
: the back wall separately. You store the information in two separate
: memory storages, after which you move the second memory storage far
: away from the first one.
:
: Then you make a delayed choice about erasing or not touching the
: which-way information recorded at the slits particle by particle and
: stored in the first memory storage. This will "affect" the landing
: point information (of the respective particles) recorded at the back
: wall and delivered over a long distance as the second memory storage.
: In other words, you have quantum communication, do you?
Due to decoherence, recording the "which way" information
in a macroscopic device already destroys the possibility
of interference between the two ways. So it will make no
difference whether you look at, ignore or destroy the
"which way" information later on.
For an introduction to decoherence in quantum mechanics,
see, for example, this review article by M. Tegmark and
J. A. Wheeler that appeared in SciAm:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0101077
Decoherence is merely an application of quantum mechanics.
Interaction with the environment effectively destroys the
possibility of interference between eigenstates. This
explains already, without requiring a conscious observer,
why the macroscopic world behaves statistically classical.
However, decoherence does not (or at least not yet) solve
the measurement problem. See, for example, this post by me
that I posted here a couple of years ago, which combines
decoherence with EPR in a thought experiment:
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html
Alain Stalder
lality_kali@yahoo.com wrote:
: Anyone have any ideas where I would begin to look for the indication
: for autism vs. the normal twin?
:
: Normal girl
: February 4, 1970
: 2:38 am CET
: Hahn, Germany
:
: autistic sister has same birth info but time was 4 minutes later at:
:
: 2:42 am
Christine wrote:
: In the normal twin, MEAN BML on 6*Leo33'' is just inside the Placidus
: 9th house.
: In the autistic twin, 9th house cusp has progressed to put BML in the
: 8th house !
:
: I understood autism to be associated with Uranus. BML sextiles
: Uranus... the ease of disconnection?.. as well as forming the T-square
: with Jupiter-Saturn.
With Koch houses, the apparently most popular house system in Germany,
Uranus switches houses too (11th/10th) [Quaoar switches also, 12th/11th].
I recognize a general trend in this thread that I would associate with
Taurus, a suppression of the "twin", of alternative viewpoints at the
same issue (Taurus comes before Gemini in the zodiac, it carries thus
the seed for Gemini's fight between brothers or sisters). I relate this
to Mars that has been in Taurus for a very long time (since July 2005).
Pedantus wrote:
: Home page of artist:
: http://www.hollisbrownthornton.com/
:
: An approximate chart..(when emailed he reported his Mom recalls birth at
: about 12:30 PM)
: http://pedantus.free.fr/HBThornton_01.gif
and (in reply to CFA):
: >>Home page of artist:
: >>http://www.hollisbrownthornton.com/>
: > Yikes!
:
: Imagine what it felt like to have opened that page with the singular
: pupose of *hopefully* finding some kind of a representation of my
: stepdaughter-haunting Saturn-styled "bogeyman"....:) The black circle
: goes on the top of the picture..Sat and Sun position. It is probably
: egg-shaped due to the Moon being full--in opposition.
There is Saturn in Leo at the MC and others have mentioned Uranus at the
AC, but as far as I see, nobody mentioned the planets at the DC of the
artist: Chiron conjunct Lilith at the first degrees of Taurus.
The same degree as Saturn for the twin girls.
I think the key for this specific case of autism is maybe just as much
in the chart itself than in the mentioned tiny differences between house
placements. Lilith, Saturn and the sun in fixed signs. Sun in Aquarius.
Aquarius ruled by Uranus who banned the ones he did not want to see to
Tartaros; jealous Venus exhalted in Aquarius and Taurus ruler.
It makes a difference whether a chart is for a single person or for two
persons. Some themes that could normally be carried out towards other
people or issues are more likely to become internalized between twins,
because they are initially so similar.
Alain Stalder
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Here is some information about the status of Xena as planet,
from Mike Brown, one of its discoverers (it is now certain
that Xena, who was discovered in 2005, is bigger than Pluto):
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/index.html#name
: How will the planetary status be decided?
[...]
: The official decision will come from the International Astronomical Union.
: We had hoped for a timely decision but we instead appear to be stuck in
: committee limbo. Here is the story, as best I can reconstruct it from the
: hints and rumors that I hear:
:
: * A special committee of the International Astronomical Union (IAU) was
: charged with determining "what is a planet."
: * Sometime around the end of 2005, this committee voted by a narrow margin
: for the "pluto and everything bigger" definition, or something close to it.
: * The exectutive committee of the IAU then decided to ask the Division of Planetary
: Sciences (DPS) of the American Astronomical Society to make a reccomendation.
: * The DPS asked their committee to look in to it.
: * The DPS committee decided to form a special committee.
: * Rumor has emerged that when the IAU general assembly meets in August in Prauge
: they willl make a decision on __how to make a final decision!__
:
: So when do we expect a decision? Back in August 2005 I used to joke that the IAU
: was so slow they might take until 2006 before deciding. That was supposed to be
: a joke. Now I joke that I hope there is a decision by the time my daughter starts
: grade school and learns about planets in class. She is currently 7 months old.
The focus is - as also indicated by misspelling - on Prague.
And, obviously, as a very much (Saturn in) Leo theme, the most
important question is exactly how to make a final decision.
Once that decision is made and (and assuming that it will be done
wisely, in a timeless manner that orients itself more on nature
than on contemporary cultural fashion), deciding the individual
fates of new objects (already discovered or not) will be fairly
easy and more relaxed from that time on...
astynaz@yahoo.com wrote:
: Xena is only the nickname.
: It's not its official name.
: It's supposed to be named after a creation deity.
Only if it will be classified as a Kuiper Belt object.
LibraLove wrote:
: It will be a planet and as such the name will have to conform to
: "planet" names convention as prescribed by the head planetary naming
: convention committee. LOL This means more likely than not -- the name
: of a God or Goddess from Greek mythology.
:
: Coming soon -- all new science text books!! :)) LL
Sure, they will be new, but not because there will
be a 10th planet, but because Pluto will no longer
be considered a planet.
There are many relatively big objects beyond Neptune
that are already known, and there might be a lot more,
not unlikely with a few more of similar or even much
larger size than Pluto and "Xena".
Some astronomers argue by what their children say that
"Xena" should be a planet, as follows: Children learn
in school that Pluto is a planet, so that parents and
teachers would have a hard time to explain to them that
"Xena" is not considered a planet even though it is
bigger than Pluto. At first sight, this argument might
make sense, but astronomers (and other people) who are
younger now, will have children too, and those will ask
questions why two objects out of many in the Kuiper Belt
have been called planets: Why none of the asteroids in
the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, why exactly
two objects in the Kuiper belt, why not only the biggest,
and if something bigger is discovered later on, the
problems are bound to multiply...
Scientifically, the Kuiper belt objects come in several
flavors, the "Plutino's" who are (like Pluto) at a 2:3
orbital resonance with Neptune, the scattered disk objects
that are far off the ecliptic, possibly scattered there by
an earlier contact with Neptune ("Xena" is the largest of
these, so far), the ones that are far out enough not to
be disturbed by Neptune (Quaoar is currently the largest
of them), and more objects, like Sedna, related to more
or less hypothetical "clouds" of objects further out.*
It is naive to assume that what is beyond Neptune can be
clearly labeled and has any focus. The concept of what is
a planet may well dissolve and be relativated that far out.
Many of the objects out there have some quite distinctive
features, but none of them really has enough features
combined to be "worthy" to become a planet. Had people
not falsely assumed that Pluto was as big as planet earth
in the 1930's, it might have never been considered a planet.
Pluto a planet??? That's only an illusion and it is, of
course, a humiliation (and maybe humbling) for humanity
and especially for astrologers, to have fallen for this
illusion of a strong and distinctive planet beyond the
realm of Neptune, for more than 70 years now.
(Astrological Pluto has a strong and distinctive impact,
which is inconsistent with its small size and lack of
distinction to other Kuiper belt objects. This shows that
there is a large psychological component to astrology.)
Then again, contemporary choices are maybe not too unlikely
to attempt to cover up previous mistakes by new ones, thus
giving more illusions and later more humiliation as heritage
to coming generations.
--
* See http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~jewitt/kb.html for an
overview of the Kuiper belt and its different objects.
Hi LL,
Thanks for the two straightforward replies.
About
: Neil
: deGrassse Tyson, Director of NYC Hayden Planetarium and astropysicist,
: who is a rare black astrophysicist.
:
: http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/physics/tyson_neildg.html
:
: His favorite planet is Saturn and he says "splender", the most
: beautiful visually with the rings.
Here is an article from his website that exposes his views of 1999:
http://research.amnh.org/~tyson/essays/PlutosHonor.html
It is quite a good article, in my view, and I especially like the
"jovian" relativation he makes at the end...
But now, some symbolic considerations...
Saturn is exalted in Libra (c.f. your quote above). Also Neil deGrasse
Tyson's site appears to be a little more narcissistic than the usual
web site of an astrophysicist. He exposes lots of nice pictures of
himself and his CV lists many of his appearances on TV and in magazines,
including "Sexiest Astrophysicist Alive" in People Magazine in 2000.
The word "Africa" comes (I guess) from Aphrodite (Venus).
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I associate narcissism mostly with
Pisces. Traditionally, Venus is exalted in Pisces.
If "Xena" becomes a planet in the eyes of astrologers, she (or maybe
he, if the name of a Greco-Roman god and not a goddess is chosen by
astronomers), she will get rulership over one of the 4 signs that
have retained a dual rulership: Gemini or Virgo (Mercury) or Taurus
or Libra (Venus).
So, one would expect to find these planets prominently with the main
actors who push for a decision. If I remember correctly, Mike Brown,
one of the discoverers of "Xena", the one who argues that since Pluto
is considered a planet and "Xena" is bigger, "Xena" must be a planet
too, is a Gemini, if I am not mistaken (somebody, maybe even you, LL,
posted his birth data a while ago). Tyson seems to be relate to Venus,
as exposed above.
Prague, where Kepler learned from Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe, has
a lion as an animal, typically a lion with two tails that intertwine,
like two serpents, which is a Libra theme (c.f. Liz Greene in "The
Astrology of Fate, section about Libra).
This might imply a slight* tendency towards future rulership over Libra,
which is not too unlikely for two concrete reasons:
- Rulership has in the past been given to new planets in the order of
their "distance" from Leo/Cancer, namely first Aquarius (from Saturn
to Uranus), Pisces (from Jupiter to Neptune), Scorpio (from Mars to
Pluto). So the next natural candidate would be one of the two signs
ruled by Venus (Taurus or Libra).
- Venus is a female goddess, so if rulership is taken from one of her
signs, it will more likely be rulership over Libra than rulership
over Taurus.
* Why only a slight tendency: Traditionally, no planets are exalted
or in fall in Leo and Aquarius, so these signs are basically neutral,
but the slight tendency comes from Libra that seems to be part of
Prague's fate, too, a sign that strives certainly for a balanced
point of view, but thus implicitly favours beauty, i.e. Venus.
I remain very curious about the outcome of this.
Alain Stalder
LL wrote:
: Thank you for the additional info on Neil, the Naricissistic
: Astrophysicist. I am a walking magnet for them. I just l--o-o-o-v-e N's
: or had no one noticed? LOL
:)
: What I am interested in is a very recent news flash from the Magi
: Society that 1996 TL66 (Sedna) possibly an Oort Cloud Object in the
: Kuiper Belt is equally important is Chiron. There will be a paper
: posted on its importance on the Memebers Only part of the site. Sedna
: was found at 3 Taurus like Chiron was according to Zane Stein, but I am
: sadly lacing in keywords or info on it.
Here is an interesting article by Prudence Nuesink at Noel
Tyl's web site, http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/011001.html
(Sedna was at about 4*50' Taurus when Chiron was discovered):
| Chiron has a Scorpio Sun and Uranus, Neptune and Pluto
| both have Scorpio Moons. Chiron and Uranus both have
| Chiron at 3 Taurus, the exaltation degree of the Moon,
| and Uranus and Pluto both have the north node at 5 Taurus,
| and Venus at 1 and 2 Pisces. There are many more contacts
| showing an interlaced relationship among the outer planets.
LibraLove wrote:
: > : What I am interested in is a very recent news flash from the Magi
: > : Society that 1996 TL66 (Sedna) possibly an Oort Cloud Object in the
: > : Kuiper Belt is equally important is Chiron. There will be a paper
: > : posted on its importance on the Memebers Only part of the site. Sedna
: > : was found at 3 Taurus like Chiron was according to Zane Stein, but I am
: > : sadly lacing in keywords or info on it.
: >
: > Here is an interesting article by Prudence Nuesink at Noel
: > Tyl's web site, http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/011001.html
: > (Sedna was at about 4*50' Taurus when Chiron was discovered):
:
: Thanks for that link. My comment was that when each was discovered
: separately, they were each at 3 Taurus.
When Chiron was discovered (Halloween 1977) Chiron was at about
3 Taurus and Sedna was at about 5 Taurus.
When Sedna was discovered (14 November 2003) Chiron was at about
14 Capricorn and Sedna was at about 18 Taurus. I see no other
major planets/objects in Taurus, except the n.node at 20 Taurus.
Am I missing something ?
: > | Chiron has a Scorpio Sun and Uranus, Neptune and Pluto
: > | both have Scorpio Moons. Chiron and Uranus both have
: > | Chiron at 3 Taurus, the exaltation degree of the Moon,
: > | and Uranus and Pluto both have the north node at 5 Taurus,
: > | and Venus at 1 and 2 Pisces. There are many more contacts
: > | showing an interlaced relationship among the outer planets.
:
: Hmnn... interesting.
Also interesting is the relation to the discovery chart of America
(12 October 1492) which has the nodes at 4 Scorpio / 4 Taurus, with
Chiron at 5 Taurus and Pluto at 4 Scorpio.
Generally, I would expect discoveries of new planets to be related
to Aquarius. For me, this contiuous progression of discovery of new
objects is aquarian, related to the beginning or precursors of the
Age of Aquarius. If one divides astrological Ages into decanates,
each decanate is about 750 years long. Starting with the moment where
Alpha Pisces passed the spring equinox in roughly 100 BCE, decanates
switch around 650 (Hegira) and 1300 (renaissance, spurred by arab
influence, from information obtained also during the crusades, then
the time of exploration of the world with the discovery of America).
If I remember correctly, both the Hegira and the USA have the n.node
at about 5 Leo, i.e. at a square to the above. (Also Spain, that paid
for Columbus' trip to America, has the n.node in early Leo, if I
remember correctly). This is the aquarian Swastica symbol, the cross
of earth (Saturn) that turns the tension of the squares into the
actual movement, like a wheel.
Aquarius' strive for progress continuously creates also an imbalance.
Uranus focussed a lot on consciousness. This is itself Aquarian, but
Uranus is also the one who banned the ones he did not like to the
underworld, until they revolted. Neptune is an attempt to restore
some balance. Some of the ambivalence can maybe seen with regard to
the invention of photography: Neptune/Poseideon is a rather earthy guy,
who got the unfitting job of lord over the sea. Photography would
seemingly at first replace this "reality-distorting art of painting"
by a 1:1 image of reality, enough with that "art", he would think!
But then came all kinds of new art forms, more abstract etc. The
forces suppressed in the underworld erupted. And further progress
of technology has also effectively removed the trust in photographic
images, since they can now usually be forged without traces.
Next came Pluto, and then Chiron (to balance the environmental damage
that technological progress can produce), ...
It is much like the guy who has a chair with 4 legs and shortens one
leg at a time, but (driven to make progress) always takes away a bit
too much, so that the chair fails to stand without rocking.
Or am I writing about Cancer ? The USA, strongly linked to Uranus'
discovery, was founded when the sun was in Cancer. The moon is now
in Cancer, and I have Jupiter, Venus and Mars in Cancer, and LL,
don't you have the sun in Cancer ?
Or is that just the quincunx from Cancer to Aquarius ?
Is Mercury maybe retrograde ? ;)
LibraLove wrote:
: So Pluto is a comet, I believe Neil deGrasse Tyson (the sexy
: astrophysicist who will soon be doing a show like Carl Sagan did) says
: and Sedna is an ORT Cloud object. Aren't they all sexy? I think so. I
: love brilliant men.
:
: My favorite astronomical page:
:
: http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/sedna/#planets
:
: http://www.space.com/news/tyson_interview_040209.html
I liked the sentence in the above interview that "America spends
more on makeup than it spends on the space program." Reminds me of
a relatively short story that I read yesterday. I will not reveal
the details of the short story. (Besides, even if I would, quite
astonishingly, but obviously once I would, that would not reveal
anything about the secrets the story is about.) The story is by a
woman with Jupiter in Aquarius, the sun in early Aries and several
more planets also in Aries, and, at least on the surface, related
to Mozart, more precisely the secrets around his death (n.sun opp.
n.Nep). In the story, the author also tells a seemingly unrelated
personal encounter she had with a character that is named "Helen",
and the setup reminds me a lot of Xena. But, I would rather like
to retell the cute fairy tale that she told in the story:
A prince who has done lots of good, is chased by evil people. All
he has to defend himself are a hairbrush, a comb and a mirror.
As his pursuers approach and he becomes exhausted, he remembers
the hairbrush and throws it behind himself, where immediately a
dense forrest emerges, which delays the pursuers.
After resting in the shadow of the trees, the prince starts running
again, but soon his pursuers catch up with him again and this time
he tosses the comb behind him and an army with bayonets emerges.
Again the price rests a while and again the pursuers catch up with
him after defeating the army. This time the prince throws what will
be his most effective weapon behind himself, the mirror.
Immediately the sea emerges between him and his pursuers. The sea
is completely flat (no wind) and very wide, in fact too wide for
the pursuers to cross it by rowing and, since there is no wind,
they also cannot cross it by sailing. Moreover, the pursuers see
their own reflections in the sea and confound it with an enemy
army. They attack the mirror image and drown in the sea.
: I love the great pictures and animations. I think it will take a year
: for the commission to meet and decide if Pluto will be re-named a
: "comet" and all these other objects classified into groups like Kuiper
: Belt, ORT Cloud or banana or cherry for the new fruit salad textbooks.
:
: http://www.karmastrology.com/NewPlanets.shtml
:
: I think only Xena (UB313) has the proper attributes for a "planet" and
: may soon be re-named with a proper "planet" name. Unless of course,
: they decide to change the attributes of "planets" so that the cherries
: and bananas will all fit. ;)
:
: Cuase you have the cubewanos, plutinos, centaurs and the galactic
: center at about 26 Leo that will have a station of Pluto trine it at
: the eclipse. Whew... then a few pecans, walnuts and don't forget the
: capers. ;))
:
: http://ephemeral.info/pos/
:
: http://ephemeral.info/txt/
:
: >
: > It is much like the guy who has a chair with 4 legs and shortens one
: > leg at a time, but (driven to make progress) always takes away a bit
: > too much, so that the chair fails to stand without rocking.
: >
: > Or am I writing about Cancer ? The USA, strongly linked to Uranus'
: > discovery, was founded when the sun was in Cancer. The moon is now
: > in Cancer, and I have Jupiter, Venus and Mars in Cancer, and LL,
: > don't you have the sun in Cancer ?
:
: :)) Yes, I do. In fact, I have a stellium at Saturn (1) Mercury and
: Pallas (3) Sun (6) and Venus (7) then Vesta (23) and Node (27). Do we
: match up?
I only have 4 in Cancer: Orcus (15), Mars (17), Venus (19), Jupiter (20).
Maybe the fact that they are all in the 12th house gives them a bit of
additional weight as far as collective issues are concerned, or maybe not.
: > Or is that just the quincunx from Cancer to Aquarius ?
:
: There is a quincunx now from Chiron at 7-8 Aqua to my Venus and I am
: having T. Vesta conj N. Venus and then Vesta return to 23 Cancer in
: the 12th. I am also having T. Uranus square natal Uranus and opp Chiron
: 11 mutable -- 8th-2nd-10th. I changed brokers today on a big bunch of 0
: degree orb hits to my planets. Mars brought it off when it hit 10
: Gemini and my Uranus yesterday. Woweee... lightening strikes.
:
: No, it was not hot fun! LOL It was a fit of pique that got me out of
: one brokerage and into another in less than 24 hours.
: >
: > Is Mercury maybe retrograde ? ;)
:
: I like mercury retrograde. It is one of my favorites. Retros are more
: powerful than direct movement.
:
: I have Mercury direct natally and when it went retro by secondary
: progression, I started loving to write more and more. I wrote erotic
: poetry, a screenplay, msgs. to my pals here and lots of stuff. ;)
:
: And U?
My natal Mercury is at about 0.5 Leo (AC at 2 Leo), my 4th major planet
in the 12th house. Mercury is retrograde, but only about a day from
going direct again, i.e. progressed Mercury has been direct since about
my first birthday and will only get retrograde again in about 2056...
The strongest aspect between my Mercury and another planet is to Saturn
at 29 Pisces, also almost stationary, turned retrograde about two weeks
or so before I was born.
I like retrograde Mercury, makes life more interesting, allows to look
at many things that are boring and normal, when viewed directly, from
a different, more indirect angle. Astonishes me a bit that in the USA,
despite retrograde natal Mercury, people consider retrograde Mercury
usually as something "bad". Might have to do with the moon in Aquarius,
a continuous urge for progress, for moving forward. In the USA, just
hanging around somewhere in public tends to look suspicious. Or maybe
it simply has to do with 4/5 of people having a direct Mercury.
PS: In the above fairy tale, I (retrograde Mercury) first imagined that
he was usually facing the pursuers when he threw the things behind his
back. But, of course, as I realized this morning, he was running away,
not facing them, when he threw the various things back. It was like at
weddings where the bride throws a bouquet of flowers behind her.
PPS: Turing Test in brief (and bait for replies, even a long thread):
- Man: Hi Honey, how was your day ? Everything fine ?
- Woman: Yes.
- Man (thinks): ?!&*%! ???
cocoa venus wrote:
: I don't want to give too many details because I don't want to unduly
: influence the interpretation.
:
: Let's just say, we met last July and we "hook up" every couple of
: weeks. I always enjoy our time together, but I really want more. I am
: in love with this man. He says he doesn't want a relationship. He says
: he can't handle the responsibility. Despite his insistence, I am
: compelled to keep seeing him. Something inside me says don't give up
: yet.
:
: Am I fooling myself?
:
: me: 7/15/74 4:25am columbia, sc
: him: 9/30/70 12:36am los angeles, ca
I am not experienced enough as an astrologer to give a complete
analysis (because I don't want to unduly influence anything).
I noticed that his northern lunar node is at 2.5 Pisces, and that
his Lilith (mean lunar apogee) is at 3 Virgo, i.e. closely conjunct
his southern lunar node. Currently, Lilith is transiting his
natal Lilith (is now at 5 Virgo, was exactly conjunct roughly
3 weeks ago). This means that he will at the moment be even more
reluctant than usual to enter a relationship, especially if he
feels pressed. That should ease down within about 2 months
(unless other factors become active that I am not aware of).
Thus it might not be a good idea to force a definite decision
just now. Good luck in any case!
LibraLove wrote:
: So, Alain. Tell me about Orcus. I haven't gotten to that one yet. What
: kind of body is it? What does it represent and how does it work in the
: 12th in Cancer for you?
I don't know about me, my approach to Orcus is (not astonishingly)
rather indirect. Here are some selected clues that I collected...
The first hint is from the time when Orcus had no name, yet, from
Nick Anthony Fiorenzo's site, where he looked at the stars in the
(sideral) sky at the time when Orcus was discovered:
http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids.html
: Subra, marking the end of sidereal Cancer, is the paw of the Lion
: impressed in the desert sand. Subra is of prints, tracks, plans,
: codices and ancient maps--clues to hidden trails and paths obscured
: by the sands of time. Subra indicates a discovery process is at hand,
: one leading to the secret chambers, entryways, even to liftoff sites
: of the gods--places hidden from ordinary view. Simply, Subra asks
: that we dig, uncover, and find the way to navigate the passage of
: our Heart's true desire.
and
: Synthesizing with the theme of Subra is the primary star of the very
: southern constellation Pictoris, the Painter's Easel. Alpha Pictoris
: indicates a picture or scenario is emerging from the fthers. This is
: a picture assembling itself as we break trail in our discovery process.
Of course, the first paragraph reminds quite a bit of the position
of my natal Mercury, as Subra is siderally at the transition between
Cancer and Leo.
Previously, I had assumed that just like Mars is the Roman equivalent of
the Greek god Ares, that Pluto is simply the Latin version of Hades. That
is not the case, however, Pluto is already Greek, too, meaning "wealth",
in the sense of the treasures that are hidden beneath earth (gold, jewels,
iron, oil, Uranium, etc.). Orcus is apparently truly Roman, but not only
describes the name of the god, but even more often the *place* beneath the
surface, i.e. similar to the greek word Hades. The god of the underworld
had even more names, in fact was famous for having many names, like Dis
or Dis Pater, and, maybe most astonishingly, Februs, the god of the month
February. This might make a more Roman variant of Pluto like Kuiper Belt
Object Orcus a bit more saturnian/aquarian than Planet Pluto (since the
month February is Capricorn/Aquarius).
The London Underground Bombings of 2005 had Orcus at the ascendant (that
is the first three explosions had it there). Underground - Underworld.
The (solar centered) planetary nodes of Orcus are at 28 Gem/Sag.
Usenet, born in late 1979 (I suspect with the sun in Sagittarius) has
Orcus in very early Leo, conjunct Juno in late Cancer.
Is that just me in the mirror, or really something about Orcus ? ;)
The Romans had their own gods previously, and only later incorporated
the Greek gods and matched them to their own gods, with the notable
exception of at least Janus, the two headed god of January, who holds
a stick in one hand and a key in the other, in order to defend or open
doors to other worlds, reminding also quite a bit of Gemini. Romantic
moments are related to transitions, e.g. sunset/-rise is the transition
between day and night, and also the only time when Mercury/Hermes is
potentially visible in the sky (when the sun is below the horizon).
Is that just me in the mirror, or really something about Orcus ? ;)
I find it very difficult to find good sources on the internet that
describe the Roman mythology in its original form. There is lots of
material about Greek mythology and mostly the Roman gods are simply
identified without any further differenciation.
: We have your Venus conjunct my Vesta for a nice 12th house friendship.
: :)
OK :)
: So can I assume that your 12th house planets have marched forward and
: are now in the 2nd or 3rd house perhaps by Secondary Progression?
Jupiter is still in the 12th house (28 Cancer). I checked and p.Jupiter
will enter Leo 8 January 2018, be conjunct n.Mercury around August 2020
and enter the first house in July 2035. That means likely a 12th house
p.Jupiter for most of the rest of my life. (Unless one progresses house
cusps, too, of course.)
Mars is at 13 Leo in the first house (my n.Sun is at 14 Leo).
Venus is at 8 Virgo, in the second house.
Mercury is at 28 Virgo, will enter Libra 25 October 2008. The sun, now
at 22 Virgo, will follow 15 December 2013.
Orcus is, of course, still in Cancer (16).
Something about "Xena":
Yesterday, I saw the movie "The Pink Panther" with Steve Martin as
Inspector Clouseau, and Beyonce Knowles as "Xania" -- pure Venus.
Even though she is a potential suspect, Clouseau allows her to go
to New York (from Paris) for a literally "Vague" reason, and with
what she gets away in the end is even more astonishing. As far as
I remember, her mother has or had a hair salon in Houston TX, and
her first name, "Beyonce", was the maiden name of her mother --
I guess an almost unveiled hint at matriarchality.
PS about 'Beyonce Knowles as "Xania" -- pure Venus'...
* 4 September 1981 in Houston TX
- northern node at 0 Leo 49
- Mars at 1 Leo 40
- Orcus at 2 Leo 41
- Mercury/Saturn/Jupiter/Vesta/Venus/Pluto in Libra
- Juno/Moon/Uranus/Lilith in Scorpio
- Chiron at 12 Taurus (conj. my n.node)
- Neptune in Sagittarius
Is that me in the mirror ?
No, its Mozart...
- woman (thinks): ?!*&ç%(* ???
Richard Nolle (in reply to dan74):
: I'd argue the same with regard to a western sign, Dan; that prejudice
: against a particular sign implies that everyone born in a given 30-day span
: is somehow beyond the pale. Clearly this is irrational, though not as
: extreme as ostracizing everyone born in an entire year. But at least
: there's nothing in modern Western astrology that would excuse this - "Sun
: Signs" being a widely recognized perversion of astrology, at least among
: astrologers if not in the general public.
In my experience, sun signs work a lot better than usually
believed. Not with any casual acquaintances, but only with
the very few people that you know very well. Of course,
this is a rather existentialist approach, thus maybe biased.
One could argue from the fact that it is the sun that makes
life, creates the seasons, lets plants grow that feed all
the animals and human beings. Of the other planets only the
moon has some noticeable self-made impact on the world, the
tides, but even the moon just reflects the light of the sun.
Is it maybe because astrologers need to defend their craft,
despite failed scientific attempts to prove it and, likely
more importantly, because they need to defend against the
experience of their clients with sun sign astrology, but
who used too simplistic cookbook attributes for the sun
signs and moreover applied it to people that they did not
know closely enough ? For me sun sign astrology was what
convinced me of astrology in the first place.
But maybe I am only writing this because I am a Leo (and a
Fire Horse). Maybe that is why I tend to single out a single
planet from a chart, and why it is precisely the sun, the
planet of Leo. And isn't ignoring the reflections from the
other planets quite narcissistic ?
Wait a second!
Wouldn't that (a bit paradoxically) rather confirm what I
just wrote, namely that one can already deduce quite a bit
of what is essential in a person from the sun sign alone ?
;)
Anyway, here's something about Horses in Chinese astrology:
A guy got a very valuable present, a beautiful white horse.
Everybody expected the guy to be very happy, but he was a
bit reluctant. The guy's son rode out on the horse, fell
down and broke a leg. Everybody expected the guy to be very
unhappy, but he was a bit reluctant. Then there was a war
and the guy's son could not be drafted, because the had a
broken leg...
Of course, narcissism is still essentially about Pisces,
especially about what the old Water woman of the zodiac
dreams about near the end of the winter, namely those two
male adult signs at a quincunx to her, Leo and Libra.
Or isn't it ? ;)
Recently LibraLove asked me about experiences with the meaning of
Kuiper Belt Object Orcus (2004 DW). Here is something fresh from
experience. Currently the moon is at 26 Leo conjunct Orcus and my
natal Vesta (roman equivalent of Hestia).
I could finally solve a problem that had been troubling me a lot during
the recent years, namely what to do about the wealth of hypotheses
about nature and astrology that I created. Although many of them are
original and sophisticated, and even if they would (if confirmed) shape
future centuries in a non-negligible way, only one of them is truly
timeless: The idea that in/out (space), rest/move (time) and free
will/fate define the 4 (5) elements. One cannot get any closer to
something timeless and natural (like a holy grail) except in religion.
So, it is ok to let the rest rest for good. Interested readers can still
download it from www.exactphilosophy.net in the section "Odyssey"
where it can now remain unchanged, while the rest of the site around
the idea mentioned above can evolve slowly during the years.
Now the symbolic connection.
Here is what Nick Anthony Fiorenzo writes about the two stars
that were conjunct Orcus at the time of its discovery in February
2004. Source: http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids.html
(Remember, currently the moon<=>lunar is conjunct Orcus)
: Subra, marking the end of sidereal Cancer, is the paw of the Lion
: impressed in the desert sand. Subra is of prints, tracks, plans,
: codices and ancient maps--clues to hidden trails and paths obscured
: by the sands of time. Subra indicates a discovery process is at hand,
: one leading to the secret chambers, entryways, even to liftoff sites
: of the gods--places hidden from ordinary view. Simply, Subra asks
: that we dig, uncover, and find the way to navigate the passage of
: our Heart's true desire.
and
: Synthesizing with the theme of Subra is the primary star of the very
: southern constellation Pictoris, the Painter's Easel. Alpha Pictoris
: indicates a picture or scenario is emerging from the fthers. This is
: a picture assembling itself as we break trail in our discovery process.
So, an important theme seems to be a creative resolution. This is not
too obvious in a time with Saturn in Leo (stationed recently), when one
tends to remain bound in current times and environments and forgets
the really important things in life.
Hestia (Vesta), goddess of the hearth ("heart") fits also very well.
See my post of summer 2005 about Hestia for more details (part of
what can be downloaded at my site under "Odyssey").
Fittingly Stanislaw Lem died just recently. I have not looked at Orcus
or Vesta or the moon in his charts, I only noticed the obvious first
return of Uranus in Pisces. Solaris.
Best wishes to everybody who is not so lucky at the moment. You
might consider to stop trying too hard and instead let a few things
solve themselves, the things you are fighting for might not be that
important after all.
I know this was not too analytical, but hopefully still catched some
of the spirit of Orcus -- without literally "catching" it. ;)
Alain Stalder
First something about the Age of Pisces, to provide an overview
over the issues touched by the "Cross and the Grail ;)", then a
quite playful (sun's now in Gemini) idea that I had yesterday,
while watching "The Da Vinci Code" in a local movie theatre.
I argue that the Age of Pisces has 3 clearly visible decanates.
The first decanate was from about -100 to ca. 622, the second
one was from ca. 622 to ca. 1328, the third one will essentially
end around 2044.
See my web site for astronomical and other arguments for these
time frames; let me just list some historical data (hopefully
mostly facts!) here. The basic idea is that the first decanate
was still influenced quite a bit by Aries, the second was quite
purely Pisces, and the third one is already quite significantly
influenced by Aquarius.
The most clear distinguishing factor for these three phases is
the presence of written knowledge from antiquity, which has
disappeared gradually with the rise of Christian Faith, until
practically all of it had disappeared in the western part of
Europe by about 600. By this time also many antique structures
had gone, like the Senate in Rome, the Oracle at Delphi, the
Neo-Platonists, the Isis Cult, and a lot more. And, of course,
the year 622 was when a new religion, Islam, emerged.
The following centuries were marked by a lack of influence from
antique literature, which only catched on significantly again
by about 1300, with antique knowledge brought back secretly by
the Knights Templar and likely others from the Crusades. Around
that time also apparently the first legends of the Grail appeared,
as well as Tarot. A few more keywords: Renaissance, Petrarca's
ascent of Mount Ventoux (1336), Switzerland (1291), Reformation
(Jan Hus was executed 1415 at Constance). This was followed by
an ever increasing number of mostly technological inventions and
discoveries. (As the work of Leonardo Da Vinci indicates, an
astonishing lot of it was already present in the collective psyche
around 1500). Here are just a few key inventions: book print, gun
powder, compass, the steam engine (plus railways and steam boats),
photography, film, auto, airplane, computer, atomic energy, ...
So this provides the elementary frame for legendary things
like a "Holy Grail" or a "Philosopher's Stone", etc. It is
always about knowledge that must be hidden from common view,
because Pisces does not want to know consciously (people
went to church for centuries to listen to somebody who said
things in Latin, a language that they did not speak, from a
book they were not supposed to read, even if they would be
able to read and would know Latin), but that knowledge must
also continue to exist, because Pisces loves diversity, so
written and unwritten knowledge must be guarded well.
Of course, the guardians (mostly males, I guess) were and are
at no point in time completely aware of this. They are the
servants in form of patriarchal societies of a female Age.
Isn't it somewhat astonishing that after matriarchal societies
in the age of Taurus, patriarchal societies in the Age of Aries,
that the female Age of Pisces has retained partriarchality ?
This brings me to bloodlines. In the ancient matriarchal view,
a man is not directly involved in childbirth. If you look at
the physical body only (fitting theme for Saturn in Leo), only
women produce offspring, children are only born from women, but
not from men. If you draw it like a tree, women bifurcate into
other women and men, while men just live some time for the
pleasure of the women, I guess, and to serve them, and then they
just disappear from the tree. There is no male blood line in
this view. (And, to drive this to the extreme, there cannot be
a bloodline of Christ in this view, only Mary could have created
such a thing, if Jesus had a sister, to which, I guess, Sauniere
also alludes to in his strange church).
Quick symbolic interlude about blood. The element associated
with blood is Fire; the heart (Leo, middle fire sign) is the
pump that transports blood to all other places of the body and
is thus also the guardian, observer of all that flows around
in the body (reminds also of the nodes, the heart, with its
two chambers). Planet Mars is literally red, like blood, and
for the same reason (oxidized iron), the blood of war (Aries)
and of fate (Scorpio, menstruation, birth).
Now to genetics. I hope to find a good balance between being
subtle and silly here:
X chromosome = Cross (Christianity, element Earth (tree))
Y chromosome = Grail (letter looks like a cup)
I guess most people are aware that people have 26 pairs of
chromosomes in their body cells, of which one pair is special
and different between men and women:
XX = woman
XY = man
It is also important to know that the X chromosome is a lot
larger than the Y chromosome. This means, of course, that the
actual data for women *and* men must be on the X chromosome
(or on other chromosomes), but does not fit onto the small Y.
This gives the Y chromosome the character of a key that can
unlock other features, a bit like a registration password in
a shareware program.
This shows clearly the difference between male (Y) and female
(X) bloodlines. Son and father always have the same Y chromosome
(if the guy who thinks he is the father actually is the father,
to be precise). Mother and daughter always only share one of
their two X chromosomes. This makes it practically impossible
(and much more mysterious) to follow female (X) blood lines.
(Side remark: What could these considerations say about the
differences between male and female homosexuality, and thus
especially about new "planet" "Xena" ? Does the Y chromosome
have an important role in influencing sexual preferences ?)
This view shows the idea of a Jesus bloodline in a different
light: The X chromosome of a son always comes from the mother,
while the Y chromosome comes from the father, i.e. in the case
of Jesus, his Y chromosome would have arguably have been *very
special* and, if Jesus had children, as is speculated by some,
all male descendants would carry that very special ingredient
(and it would even be a litterally real one, something could
be investigated under a microscope).
Frankly, this does not sound real to me, although I can somewhat
understand that to some people this might be compelling. Pisces
is the oldest woman of the zodiac; with a body that is almost
dead already, her only escape is to the worlds of dreams and
imagination, to dreams also about the two adult male signs of
the zodiac, which are at quincunx to her sign, Leo and Libra.
She likes to send these men onto quests for various things in
order that they learn, say, that the grail is not material and
rather the path is the goal (Leo, towards Sagittarius) or more
clarity, purpose and coherence (Libra, towards Aquarius).
In both cases, the secret is not a literal one, is not about
knowing things, but about learning what questions to ask.
Dan Barkye wrote:
: > In both cases, the secret is not a literal one, is not about
: > knowing things, but about learning what questions to ask.
:
: -- Another explanation is that the Grail is a vessel for the Holy Blood
: that ensures the Holy Line, and that Mary is/was this Grail (for the
: Holy Line).
What's the purpose of the grail ?
Dan Barkye wrote:
[...]
: > : > In both cases, the secret is not a literal one, is not about
: > : > knowing things, but about learning what questions to ask.
: > :
: > : -- Another explanation is that the Grail is a vessel for the Holy Blood
: > : that ensures the Holy Line, and that Mary is/was this Grail (for the
: > : Holy Line).
:
: > What's the purpose of the grail ?
:
: -- To carry on the Holy Blood Line of Jesus, as the mother of His
: children, in short, the dynasty, He being of the House of King David,
: the source from which the Messiah will come.
No, the purpose of the grail is the more abstract description
that I provided in my original post -- at least according to
quite a few quite respected and famous people, who look at it
not from a purely religious point of view. In "The Astrology
of Fate" Liz Greene mentions the grail in the sections about
Leo and (more briefly) Capricorn. She comes from the work of
C. G. Jung, his wive Emma and Marie Louise von Franz.
The individuation of Leo can also be seen as an evolvement from
Aries via Leo to Sagittarius. Perceval in the first novel that
mentioned the holy grail (by Chretien de Troyes) is like Aries,
fails to question himself and his place in the world.
Jewish religion emerged at the beginning of the Age of Aries,
when Abraham left the city of Ur, thus it is still very much
influenced by it. Because Aries often does not recognize what
role he plays in the world and only perceives the bad things
that others do to him, his view of the world is often filled
with enemies who want to hurt him. Israel (sun in Leo) has quite
arguably some of the same problems. Things would be much easier
in the Middle East, if the parties involved would start to look
at things more neutrally, instead of only from their personal
standpoint, not taking the standpoint of others into account
(an ability at which Pisces is best).
The cup that the grail is in most versions of the tale is also
the cup that Zeus/Jupiter gave to Cronos/Saturn in order that
Cronos would vomit out the stone that Rhea gave Cronos to eat
instead of Zeus (reminds of philosopher's stone), and then
Zeus' two brothers and three sisters.
Zeus also had cup bearers, first Hebe (Eve), then Ganymedes,
who he had fallen in love with; Ganymedes became the stars of
the constellation of Aquarius.
The grail as a cup thus hints quite bluntly also at aquarian
themes, fitting with the 3rd decanate of the Age of Pisces,
as I tried to expose in my original post.
I liked your comment about the DNA in mitochondria. When I went
to school about 25 years ago and learned about the insides of
animal cells, nobody knew that mitochondria contained DNA, at
least it was not general knowledge. Since the female egg cell
is a fully fledged cell with its own metabolism, it contains
mitochondria and their DNA, but apparently the male sperms do
not contain them (although the issue appears still to be
somewhat controversial, see Wikipedia).
So much for the literal facts. But in 25 years science will
again say something different, with maybe completely different
implications. That is the main reason why I put a ";)" smiley
into the subject of this thread of mine. A too direct, too
focussed and serious approach is not necessarily the best here.
Overview is needed, like the eagle sent by Zeus provided to
Psyche (the human mind) in one of her 4 tasks (Apuleius) in
which she had to retrieve a cup filled with water from the
eternal river Styx, the river by which gods swear.
It is an aquarian illusion to assume that just because science
is well grounded in experiment and gives in many instances a
definite answer to quite fundamental questions, that these
answers are also "the answer", simply because science evolves
and thus answers change often within the lifetime of a person.
Of course, as far as the "bathwater" is concerned (see thread
about Nick Campion), there are always deeper, older origins,
certainly also for the grails legends or tarot, but as far
as these things are concerned in terms of their concrete shape
and mainstream influence ("fish in the bathwater") there seems
to be a clear starting point near the beginning of the third
decanate of the Age of Pisces. Thus these things are, albeit
colored already by the next age axis Aquarius-Leo, essentially
piscean, in the way that I tried to describe in my original post.
So once more:
Question: What's the purpose of the grail ?
Answer: In both cases, the secret is not a literal
one, is not about knowing things, but about learning
what questions to ask.
PS: For a "true knight" it should not take more than a blink
of the eye to figure out the address of my web site...
PS2: What will happen in the decanates of the Age of Aquarius ?
In which decanate (if any) will astrology go mainstream ?
PS3: Venus's in Aries, Saturn in Leo, Uranus in Pisces. X-Men III. Jean.
PS4: What does all this suggest about "Xena" (her daughter in the
TV series was called "Eve", if I am not mistaken) ?
That's all for the moment...
LibraLove wrote:
: Lately there have been a few highly noted scholars that have shown
: interest in astrology. This is an excellent interview to listen to with
: a scholar who is now looking at astrology as a viable language and a
: valid way of looking at our universe.
:
: You really should listen to this interview:
:
: http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/archives/2006/031906.html
:
: "Cosmos and Psyche" by Richard Tarnas
Thanks for the link, I listened to the full interview.
Actually, maybe a bit unfortunately things are rather the other
way around in this case: Richard Tarnas was already well aware
of astrology when he wrote his non-astrological and successful
book "The Passion of the Western Mind" something like 15 years
ago. An interview with Richard Tarnas appeared in the Dec/Jan 06
issue of "The Mountain Astrologer", in which he even called this
older book a "Trojan Horse", if my memory is correct.
According to Wikipedia, he was born in Geneva and "grew up in
Michigan, where he studied Greek, Latin, and the classics under
the Jesuits". Fits nicely with this indirect two-step approach
(first a non-astrological book that establishes the historical
key events as accepted facts, then an astrological book that
compares these key events with transits of outer planets).
This is certainly a viable approach, although it carries also
the danger of people resenting this as a "planned deception".
But this is not my main criticism: I would have very much
preferred if he had only presented the facts in "Cosmos and
Psyche", without trying also to present sort of a theory why
astrology works.
If one is really consequent, one should only present facts, and
there are -- in my view as a physicist -- clearly enough facts
that would allow to prove astrology, once scientists earnestly
start to investigate. As soon as some experiments confirm
astrology, scientists will be *very* eager to hear even of the
most absurd ideas about how astrology works...
While I am at it, I would like to point at Robert Hand's lecture
"Towards a Post-Modern Astrology" that he gave about nine months
ago at the Astrological Conference 2005 of the British Astrological
Association in York, UK:
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_postmodern_e.htm
Actually, I disagree with a lot that he writes there, but I also
think that these issues will settle themselves, without any need
on my side to comment (Uranus in Pisces, I guess).
Instead I would like to focus at what is rather a side-remark in
his lecture:
: At Astrolabe, the company that I used to work with, we had a cartoon
: on the wall which showed a rather generously endowed, portly woman
: standing behind a lectern with a very stern and severe expression on
: her face, saying: We will not rest until astrology has found its
: proper place in Academia, and on the wall behind her is a sign that
: says: Next Week: Astrology and Your Pet.
This shows clearly where astrology is rooted: in everyday life. It is
in this sense a very female sort of "science", based on immediate
experience of comparing what people around us do and how this relates
to what astrology predicts.
Giving that "female science" away to modern male/aquarian science is
also a question of power. With knowledge of astrology, a lot can be
achieved, and a *lot* can be done naively wrong.
There is an additional reason, why a "localized" female science of
astrology is not going to go away so easily: Astrological theories
can differ from astrologer to astrologer. This selective view is very
important in families and other small groups. Any family has its
secrets and it is important that the mental structures in the family
hide some things. That is much easier if the "house astrologer" has
a somewhat biased view of signs, planets and houses. A common, proven
science would instead leave much less room for interpretation and
avoiding things.
Of course new methods of avoiding things will emerge, but that will
take time, probably at least a few generations.
One more thing: Of course what almost every astrologer loves about
astrology is the ability to do research, to develop his/her own
"pet theories". Once mainstream science tackles astrology, this
will become a lot more difficult. Of course, there are again good
ways to escape, but that is again a matter of generations.
The main problem with making astrology a science is thus right at
the beginning: The moment when a male scientist considers that there
might actually be something to astrology, and considers maybe to look
a bit closer into the matter, will his wife/girlfriend/mother/etc.
approve of him doing so, or will she be too afraid of what might
come out or what she might lose ? Or will she encourage him ?
Clearly, it is not the male scientist who has the choice.
;)
LibraLove wrote
: > Clearly, it is not the male scientist who has the choice.
:
: I see. Well you certainly have given women and the wives of scientists
: a lot more power than I have ever witnessed or experienced having had
: in my long life.
:
: So if I read you correctly, the jaws of the vagina could halt the
: progress of astrology into the status of "science".
:
: Hmnn.... interesting theory. ;)
I'd say your view lacks differentiation.
One important aspect about female power/fate is that it is mainly
unconscious (not conscious) and rather collective than individual
in nature. An woman's approach to direct a man that is too selfish
and conscious (I am referring to the woman here) results usually
in frustration (I am again referring to the woman). Not easy to be
a woman today, where women are expected to do everything that men
do too (Aquarius) and yet to look always perfectly attractive (Leo).
What did Freud write with regard to the evolvement of female
sexuality ? What's the purpose of the grail ?
Of course, please feel free not to ask for purpose, but then
please do not blame/attack me...
One of the most prominent skeptics, Charles Randi, started out as
a magician (the secular type). Where does the anger of skeptics
come from ? It comes from fear. But where or from whom does their
fear come from ? What's the purpose of the grail ?
There's a book called "The Battersea Park Road to Enlightenment"
in which an english "Xena", who grew up (like Perceval) without
her father, a spanish diplomat she never saw, tries all kinds of
different "esoteric" stuff, including also astrology, so I know
that she is an Aries. Interestingly, of all the things she tries,
the thing that sticks in the end, is catholic christianity.
One more thing LibraLove: Although I replied to a few posts and
profited there (using my Mercury-Mirror at the AC) to draw quite
some concrete and rational things out of it, that does not mean
that I like you. I very much preferred Sharyn (Smith)'s input,
which has, in my view, lead me to quite more interesting and
fundamental things (her sun at the end of Cancer is conjunct my
Mercury at the beginning of Leo). But maybe that is because you
are sort of the same "godless" creature like myself in public
(I have moon/Chaos in Aries at the MC). Anyway, male attributes
in a woman are just not attractive to the typical heterosexual
man, no conscious rumination can change that.
You have now attacked me twice quite unfairly (in my view); so
I thought a partial rebuttal would be OK now, even though you
are probably not aware about what precisely I mean, which is
quite exactly what makes you like Perceval, always wondering
why others attack you, although in your preception you did not
have any part in causing it.
I do not expect you to change, but still wanted to make clear
where I stand. Saturn's in Leo.
: So I don't know that Saturn is in Leo? I see.
I am sure you know. I guess it is safe to say that almost
all astrologers are usually aware of where Saturn is.
A bit unfortunately, though, astrologers seem also often
not to be much aware of where Lilith is and, even more so,
where the lunar nodes are.
Otherwise, it would be quite a bit more obvious why issues
of virgin conception (Lilith-Uranus) and the birth of Christ
(Aries-Pisces Age transition) have come up prominently in
public at this time...
Dan Barkye wrote:
: If you wanna give the Grail an abstract meaning, then, yes, maybe it's
: all about how to ask questions, yet another device in the spiritual
: quest of mankind.
: There is a saying that the religious Jews, especially, use (b/c of the
: constant inquiries when studying the scriptures):
: "A correct question is a half-answer", meaning that if you know how to
: ask correctly, you already have half the answer in your hands.
:
: But, no, so sorry to disagree, the Grail is the vessel that enables the
: continuation of the Holy Bloodline, that of the House of King David,
: which is a direct link in the line that starts from the origins of
: mankind's leaders.
Fair enough.
I think this dialogue has given me quite a few interesting
new "half-answers". Thanks a lot!
(As a side effect, I can now also understand the mythology
of Star Wars, including the "midi-chlorians" (see Wikipedia
or Google) and their relation to "The Force" and to Anakin
Skywalker's mother's virgin conception a bit more clearly.)
[originally posted 8 September 2002]
[...]
In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
after the other and explain things as I go along.
Fire
One basic archetype for Fire is simply a burning fire. There are
three fire signs, Aries, Leo and Sagittarius; they come after
each other in that order in the zodiac. Now, a fire starts with
lots of wood and little flames and smoke, then in the middle, it
burns full force until, finally, almost no wood is left and lots
of smoke has gone up into the air. Let's look at things very
basically: Wood is solid, so it is a form of Earth, whereas Smoke
is a form of Air. So, in this very basic view, a burning fire
transforms Earth to Air.
Now, the idea is that the three Fire signs symbolize the three
different phases of a burning fire. Aries is an early fire that
consists mainly of Earth (wood) and has produced little Air
(smoke) yet. Leo is a fully burning fire with ample amounts of
Earth and Air, Sagittarius consists only of little Earth but lots
of Air. Now, let me connect this to psychology.
Earth stands for reality and it also stands for the human body.
Why does Earth stand for the human body ? Well, Earth produces
plants that then feed animals. Similarly, the body of a woman
produces new life too, namely a child. Air stands for the mind,
for language. Now, one important difference between Earth and Air
is that the human body is mortal, but creations of the mind can
be written down or taught to the next generation, so Air is
immortal while Earth is mortal.
Fire itself stands psychologically for the imaginary power to
visualize how things could or should be. So, Fire transforms
mortal Earth into immortal Air. The human body and especially its
brain produces by imagination timeless, immortal thoughts that
can be given on to later generations.
Several psychological properties of the Fire signs can be
understood from that, for example:
a) secrecy/openness: If you are immortal, you can afford to be
open, since nothing can really affect you too much then. So
Sagittarius is often open whereas Aries tries to keep things
secret until he is sure he can defend them. Leo is in between,
has to decide for each issue whether to be frank about it or not.
b) wound: Psychological astrology connects Sagittarius for
example to the centaur Chiron that is accidentally wounded with a
poisoned arrow from his friend Heracles. The arrow contains
deadly poison so that Chiron suffers deadly pains, but since he
is immortal, he cannot die, until he later is allowed into the
underworld by Zeus in exchange for Prometheus. So, how is this
connected to a burning fire ? Very directly, since Fire burns
wood (Earth), so it wounds the physical mortal body. Since
Sagittarius is mainly made of immortal Air, the wound is bigger
in him than in Leo or Aries, but he still cannot die from it.
Psychologically, the wound also stands for consideration of the
other. Aries is quite egoistically, he is not wounded much and
also cannot afford to much altruism since he has to protect his
own mortality. Leo typically starts out in life just like Aries,
but typically later in life has to learn to show and feel
consideration for other people's feelings and needs. Sagittarius
typically learns that already earlier. He can afford to be
altruistic even if that is painful because people will take
advantage of it, but in the end that cannot hurt his immortal
soul.
[...] let me connect the transition of the Fire signs, namely
Earth-Fire-Air, to the philosophy of Aristotle. He viewed the
four elements to be composed of two pairs of properties: hot/cold
and dry/wet. The four elements are composed as follows:
Fire: hot+dry
Earth: cold+dry
Air: hot+wet
Water: cold+wet
Using that model, he described how elements can be transformed
into each other, namely by changing one of these properties at a
time. So, you can go from Earth to Fire by making Earth hot (and
keeping it dry), then you can go to Air by making Fire wet (and
keeping it hot). This gives a closed circle: You can make Air
cold to get Water and then make Water dry to arrive back at Earth
again.
So, the Fire signs are part of that circle, just as the other
signs are, as I will try to show below.
Water
One archetypal image for Water is how it can transform from ice
to liquid water and then evaporate. So, his is again a transition
from Earth (ice) to Air (evaporated water), only this time it
goes through Water and not Fire. In other words, the transforming
power is feelings, not imagination.
Just as for the Fire signs above, the first Water sign, Cancer,
is made mainly of Earth (ice) and little Air (evaporated air),
Scorpio contains roughly equal amounts of Earth and Air, and,
finally, Pisces are mainly made of Air and little Earth. Now,
lets get into psychology again.
When something melts and evaporates, boundaries are removed,
things are allowed to mix with each other. This explains why
Cancer is so protective, why he tries to be secure of intrusion
into his shell (a solid border, or, in other words, Earth).
Scorpio is still suspicious and has to protect himself from pain,
the shell is still partially there, but he is also ready to give
in and to penetrate into others if he feels that this is
necessary. Pisces are mainly immortal Air, so nothing can really
hurt them anymore, they quite freely mix with all kinds of people
and other influences.
Let me extend on these meanings by giving three additional
archetypes for Water. Both derive from the basic archetype above.
Rivers originate in the mountains from springs, then flow down as
rivers while merging into larger rivers and flowing into the sea,
from where the water eventually evaporates (and then falls back
onto earth in the form of rain to feed the sources in the
mountains again). This is the circle of water. The source in the
mountains corresponds to Cancer, because it is the beginning of
the circle, but also because in the mountains it is colder than
below, there are often snow and ice (glaciers), which are forms
of Earth. Scorpio stands then for a river that flows down and
melts with other rivers. Pisces stand for the sea.
This fits very well with the impulsive creativity of Cancer,
where sometimes something just has to come out, or with Scorpio's
need to extend its influence, like the rivers that merge, or
simply with the many associations that connect Pisces to the sea.
Before I mention another piece of mythology, let me give the
other two archetypes.
The three fates stand for three phases in the life of a woman and
also for the three phases of the moon. Cancer, again because it
is the first Water sign in the zodiac, stands for a girl, Scorpio
for an adult woman and Pisces for an old woman. What defines
these three phases is the ability to have children. A young girl
cannot have children yet, whereas an old woman cannot have
children any more. This is also how the connection to the three
phases of the moon comes about: The phase around full moon shows
a round and full moon, which is similar to the round belly of a
pregnant woman. The two phases of the moon before that and after
that correspond to girl and old woman. [...]
To make things complete, let me give another piece of mythology
that is typically correlated with Cancer (and Scorpio). Heracles
is fighting the monster Hydra in the swamps which had been sent
by Hera. The Hydra has 9 heads, and whenever Heracles chops off
one head, 3 others grow back. Only when he not only chops off the
heads, but also burns the stumps, does he succeed in winning the
fight. He almost lost the fight because of a crab that had been
sent by Hera too that bit Heracles into the foot while he was
fighting the Hydra. Heracles stomped the crab, but Hera gave the
crab a place in the sky as the star sign Cancer because the crab
was so loyal to her.
The interpretation of this myth is typically about the relation
between mother and child. This is most clearly seen from the fact
that Heracles means "Fame of Hera". Let me analyze further what
you see here on the elementary symbolic level. As usual, all the
proponents in the myth symbolize some aspects of Cancer, not only
the crab, but also Heracles, Hera, the Hydra, the swamps, etc.
The numbers 3 and 9=3x3 relate to the three fates. The element
Water is typically passive, water just flows down, never up. That
is the role of the crab, to bite the hero into the foot so that
he leaves his shell and cares for the things that are hurting the
mother Hera, symbolized by the nine-headed Hydra. The hero not
only has to chop off the heads to remove what hurts, but also to
heal the wounds by burning the stumps so that no new heads grow
back.
Pisces are connected to everything, since they have mixed all the
water, they care about everybody and everything, but Cancer has
not mixed much yet, mostly cares about a few close friends and
family. Sometimes the "mother", which is the unconscious
background of all the influences that had flown into the sea and
which form the water that comes out of the spring; sometimes the
"mother" has to hurt the "child" a bit to make it care for
something outside of itself.
[...]
Air
One important archetypal image is a cloud. A thunderstorm
typically starts out with lightning and thunder, when it is going
on full-force, there is lightning and rain, and, finally, the
storm ends will mostly rain and almost no lightning. So, we have
lightning (Fire) at the beginning and rain (Water) in the end.
Accordingly, Gemini, the first Air sign, is composed mainly of
Fire and only little Water, Libra of roughly equal amounts of
Fire and Water, and Aquarius mainly of Water and only little
Fire.
Lightning and fire are quick and unpredictable, this fits well
with Gemini. Rain is constant and falls in equal amounts on
everybody, this fits well with the altruism of Aquarius and the
fact that he is a fixed sign. Similarly to the Water signs, this
can also be seen as three stages in the life of a man (Air is a
male element). Children are quick and unpredictable, they can
change their moods from very unhappy to very happy within
seconds. Old men, in contrast, tend to become somewhat immobile
in their thinking and only open for new things that are not too
new, but, of course, they can compensate for part of this by
their greater experience.
A child has to learn how the world behaves by playing, by looking
at things from different sides. The first time you see a coin,
you only see pictures from different sides. It takes work in the
brain to connect these pictures into a single, abstract object
that is then given a name, "coin". The older you get, the more
things in the world are recognized to be just different sides of
the same things. For children there are more things than for
adults. The more you learn, the more transparent things become,
they become transparent like rain (Water).
Earth
One important archetypal image is the tree. It is made of wood
(Earth). In order to grow, a tree needs essentially two things,
light from the sun (Fire) from above and Water from its roots
below the surface. The transition is Fire-Earth-Water. The first
Earth sign of the zodiac, Taurus, is composed essentially of
Fire, Virgo of roughly equal amounts of Fire and Water, and
Capricorn essentially of Water.
The roots of the tree which feed it with Water symbolize the
structure that keeps the tree from falling down during its whole
life. What is visible from the tree from the outside, where the
sun (Fire) shines, namely leaves, flowers and fruits are more
beautiful, but also short-lived. They reappear every year.
Accordingly, for Taurus beauty is more important than structure,
whereas for Capricorn it is the other way round. Virgo is in
between. She has to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to go
for more order or more beauty. It is worthwhile to explore why
popular astrology typically describes Virgo as well-ordered while
in reality that should be attributed rather to Capricorn. The
main reason is that order is a big issue for Virgo because there
is the conflict with beauty, whereas for Capricorn such a
conflict does not exist. In addition, Virgo often has a tendency
to exaggerate, to go either for more or less order that she can
live with for a long time. It is often only a bit later in life
that Virgo learns to balance these opposite needs.
[...]
David Ames wrote:
: LibraLove wrote:
: >
: > LOL, Chomp. I have been called "Snacky Pitbull" offline, so...
Remember
: > the guy recently who got limp when I posted. ;)
: >
:
: Limp? Could you tell for sure?
Assuming she meant me, that's an illusion on her side.
I am a male Leo (and a physicist) from Switzerland, a country
with lots of planets in Leo (actually almost all of them).
Although LL is quite a bit older than me, she remains in my
personal view very much a young lion, and I expect that she will
probably never change. Maybe that is what disturbed me lately
rather than her person. I did not feel bitten at all, fighting
is not everything for an older lion, quite to the contrary.
I met LL first in 2003 at alt.astrology.tropical and I also
replied to a post where she mentioned that her cat had been
shot by her mother. So much richer and diverse was the world
then. Now a lot has become quite stereotypical (including
also me). So, I find more pleasure in reading old posts from
a few years ago, and, I must admit, personally I still like
alt.astrology.tropical a lot.
Whatever LL might reply now, please don't get the impression
that her reply was sort of the cause of a subsequent lack of
a reply by me... ;)
Alain Stalder aka Delphi Twentine aka Hermes )o+ aka ...
--
PS: I deleted all my posts from google's archives about half
a year ago, but I kept copies at my web site, in case anybody
feels inclined to have a look now or in 20 years (see section
"Archive" and download "odyssey.zip" from there, if you like).
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In traditional astrology, Saturn is the greater malefic and Mars
is the lesser malefic. The greater benefic is Jupiter and the
lesser benefic is Venus.
Modern psychological astrology tries to avoid giving such labels,
for example here is what Clare Martin writes at astro.com about
Jupiter and Saturn (http://www.astro.com/mtp/mtp4_e.htm):
: Jupiter and Saturn form another pair of opposites which can be broadly
: defined as the principles of expansion and contraction, faith and fear,
: enthusiasm and inhibition. When these two planets are supporting each
: other, Saturn will provide structure and shape to the vision and faith
: of Jupiter. Without Saturn, Jupiter would remain ungrounded and unrealistic,
: unable to manifest itself in the world. Without Jupiter, there would be
: no purpose or meaning to the structures created by Saturn. Jupiter is
: the entrepreneur with the vision, and Saturn is the ability to turn the
: vision into reality. We need both.
Who's right ?
With the sun in Gemini, I would like to look a bit at both sides...
As far as I can tell, the notion that Jupiter and Venus are benefic,
and their counterparts are not, is something that originated or was
at least most prominent in the Age of Pisces.
Now, the ruler of Pisces is Jupiter and Venus is exalted in Pisces,
i.e. a "good guest" in the sign. Although this is logically a bit of
a tail biter, this view fits well with Jupiter as the greater benefic
(ruler of Pisces) and Venus the lesser benefic (exalted in Pisces).
It can also be understood why more modern views are more neutral and
avoid to label planets as "good" or "bad", because they are at least
quite a bit closer to the Age of Aquarius: No planets are exalted in
Aquarius, nor in the opposite sign, Leo. These signs are at least
neutral towards guests, they have no favorites (exalted planets),
although they still have rulers.
Who's right ? From the top of my head, it would seem that each sign
of the zodiac has about 1/12 of a balanced view. Thus these two views
only represent about 2/12 or 1/6 of the "truth", to the degree that
there is such a thing.
But, let me try to probe each view a bit deeper.
Although modern astrologers superficially avoid labelling planets as
good or bad, they often also appear to be a lot more concerned with
transits by the traditionally bad planets, than by traditionally good
planets.
Especially women appear to be often quite a bit addicted to something
that I am sometimes inclined to call "Transititis". All these hard
aspects or oppositions to natal planets and angles. I would say that
a good part of astrological discussions among women on newsgroups is
about discussing transits, often personal ones.
Although in my experience aspects are certainly an important aspect of
astrology (pun!), they are also not the full picture. The signs that
natal and transiting planets are in, are important too. They are, in
my view and experience, a great reservoir for many different and even
opposing ways to handle the transits and to transform their impact into
something "good".
In my experience, even sun sign astrology works extremely well, if only
you have the courage and dedication too look deep enough into the issues
that the sign is about. Sun signs usually show best in the more extreme
situations of life. Take a look at such situations and compare it with
the essential themes that prevailed, and I think many will agree.
(You could, of course, say that I am only saying this because I have the
sun in Leo, but that would be using sun sign astrology as an argument
against sun sign astrology... ;)
Now a deeper look at the traditional bad guys Saturn and Mars. The notion
of Pisces is clearly that it is bad to be hard (Saturn) and aggressive
(Mars). Aquarius is traditionally ruled by one of these bad guys, by
Saturn. The modern ruler of Aquarius, Uranus, has one glyph that looks
like and old (<=> Saturn) Mars on Viagra. So, one would expect Aquarius
to have a different opinion regarding hardness and aggressivity.
Especially in the country that is most strongly associated with the
discovery of Uranus, the United States of America, it is often perceived
good to be hard and aggressive. Aquarius has that almost religious zeal
to do something for the good of others and does also think that this is
a "good" thing, if the purpose and the results are overall "good" from
his perspective.
Take the invasion of Iraq, for example. The idea to help the people of
Iraq, to help them to get rid of an evil dictator who suppressed and
tortured his people, is certainly on the axis Aquarius-Leo, including
the idea that it would be acceptable to go to war for this, to attack
the country and be tough, just in order to let things progress to the
better. Now, was the invasion of Iraq a good thing ?
Very difficult to say. There are certainly good and bad elements and
whether the good or the bad ones will prevail in the end is difficult
to say. But using aggressive force is certainly at least a very
problematic affair. I recommend to be cautious and especially for a
country who is as delicately vulnerable in the inside as it tries to
appear tough on the outside (inside and outside of its sun Cancer
shell), it would be much better to try to compromise with the world
(northern node in Leo), to convince at least a majority of countries
outside of the USA of their views with words, so that it would only
be neccessary to use aggressive force in the sense of a world police
action. My way of dealing with 9/11 would have been to view it as a
crime, albeit on a global scale, and simply to prosecute the people
who planned and executed it and the ones who directly supported it,
but at the same time also to invest a lot of time in order to reflect
on my own role in the story, and try to listen to the arguments of
the more moderate majority of the "enemy side" and then try to find
a more harmonic compromise that would allow to live in peace.
Since the USA has the northern node in Leo, ultimately their path
will be into a similar direction, but there will likely stull be a
few more bumps along the way; especially the US (malefic) Mars in
Gemini, often makes it difficult for Americans to find internal
unity (2 party system, Pepsi-Coke, etc.) and also external unity.
But when Americans make the extra effort to go all the way, the
result is usually great.
What about the new planets Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Chiron, or also
Mean Black Moon Lilith ? Are they good or bad or is that the wrong
question to ask regarding these objects ?
--
PS: Please note that although I have set the "X-No-Archive: Yes" flag,
I do not mind replies, even if their only purpose is to preserve this
post (or parts of it) in usenet archives. I will keep no copy.
chompergirl wrote:
: What hit him?
:
: Birthday: October 20, 1966
: Amman, Jordan
Let me tackle this one from the point of view of Zarqawi's sun.
I use the sun sign, since it most strongly represents *life*.
This is certainly not the only viable approach, far from it.
For example, one should maybe mention that both Islam (Hegira)
and the USA have the northern lunar node in early Leo, where
Mars (and Juno) transited the natal pair of Jupiter and Juno;
and the nodes are in early Aries, a point that I believe to
remember to have been quite prominent in the death and event
charts for the two recent popes and the last witness of Fatima.
The following analysis adheres quite closely to what Liz Greene
associates with Zarqawi's sun sign Libra, especially in "The
Astrology of Fate", plus a few associations from me.
First a table of planets at birth and death (I am simply using
the data provided in this thread; I did not crosscheck):
* (noon) + (2006-06-07, 18:15, near Bagdad)
Sun 26 Lib 34 16 Gem 42
Moon 17 Cap 11 26 Lib 41
Mercury 19 Sco 45 07 Can 03
Venus 21 Lib 34 10 Tau 36
Mars 04 Vir 35 02 Leo 18
Jupiter 02 Leo 51 10 Sco 12
Juno 02 Leo 35 01 Leo 00
Saturn 24 Pis 05 07 Leo 41
Uranus 22 Vir 16 14 Pis 14
Neptune 20 Sco 59 19 Aqu 45
Pluto 19 Vir 35 25 Sag 40
Orcus 16 Can 49 26 Leo 05
True Node 16 Tau 21 01 Ari 27
Chiron 22 Pis 31 09 Aqu 28
Lilith 22 Pis 34 15 Vir 07
AC -- 23 Sco 33
MC -- 02 Vir 01
The sun is at 26 Libra 36. The Sabian Symbol for 27 Libra is:
: Like a great soaring bird, a single brilliant spot in a bright
: sky, an airplane far overhead sails about calmly.
(So there is an airplane, but no two bombs, yet...)
At the moment when the bombs fell, the moon transited across
his natal sun. In a birth chart, if moon is conjunct sun, this
is a new moon. This moment is very important for Moslems, since
the feasting month Ramadan starts and ends at new moon, when
the last part of the sickle of the moon disappears/reappears.
During the Ramadan, people are only allowed to eat a night. I
remember to have read (actually it was in a Donald Duck comic
when I was a kid) that the method to determine when it is dark
enough to start eating is as follows: You put two pieces of
thread into your hand, a black one and a red one. Once it gets
so dark that it is impossible to tell the two threads apart,
you can start to eat.
These two threads remind me of a piece of mythology that Liz
Greene associates with Libra, namely the story where Teiresias
accidentally observed two snakes having sex and was condemned,
because he had seen a deep secret, to live 7 years as a woman.
There is another piece of mythology involving Teiresias and
related to Libra, namely when Zeus and Hera are quarelling and
ask Teiresias to give his opinion/judgement regarding the
question whether men or women have more fun during sex.
Teiresias replies that women have 9 times more fun during sex
than men. For that, furious Hera blinds him, but Zeus rewards
him at the same time with the gift of a seer, "inner vision".
In Zarqawi's birth chart, the couple Zeus/Hera is found under
their roman names, Jupiter and Juno in early Leo. It is quite
common to associate the first four signs of the zodiac with
childhood, the middle 4 signs with adults and the last 4 signs
with old people. Early Leo, where Jupiter and Juno are in the
chart, is thus also related to the start of sex and relations
(and marriage) between men and women becoming important.
There are several reasons why Teiresias claims that women have
9 times more fun than men. The first is that he says that sex
is a broader affair for women, that involves all their senses
(the number nine is used because women have nine "gates", two
eyes, two nostrils, two ears, mouth, anus, vagina; while men
have only 8). Men in contrast, according to Teiresias, focus
rather on one thing during sex. Consequently, it is, of course,
much harder for a woman to be satisfied with sex, but when she
is, the experience is a lot fuller than for men.
A bit deeper, the number 9 also relates to nine months of
pregnancy. Until only a few decades ago, having sex was a much
more fated affair for a woman than for a man. It involved always
the danger/opportunity to become pregnant, which is again a mixed
bag to some degree, and the moment of birth, as every astrologer
knows, is certainly also an imporant one, thus is also indirectly
the moment you have sex when you are fertile.
Zarqawi died at the 9th return of Juno to his natal Jupiter/Juno
conjunction...
Now the two bombs...
Zarqawi's natal sun is at a sextile to both transiting Pluto in
Sagittarius and transiting Orcus (also god of the underworld) in
Leo. It is worthwile to note that Pluto is conjunct the galactic
center and the planetary nodes of Venus.
Sextiles are an aspect that I consider to be very much connected
to Jupiter and Libra. Let me explain why.
Jupiter is the 6th planet (Saturn, the slowest planet visible to
the naked eye is number 7; thus the next slower planet, Jupiter
is 6). Zeus is known for acting intuitively when an opportunity
arises and to have a lucky hand doing it.
The number 6 is 3 + 3, it represents thus a choice between two
different fates (3 is fate, there are Three Fates, young girl,
adult fertile woman and old woman; 9 = 3 x 3). Libra likes all
situations where two possible paths are in balance, at an
equilibrium, because it is in these situations where one can
make a choice without doing so requiring much energy.
This brings me to another piece of mythology which I associate
strongly with Libra, namely how Zeus/Jupiter determined the place
where the Oracle or Delphi was to be built:
Zeus let two eagles fly, one from each corner of the world, one
from the west and one from the east. Where they met, he placed
the Omphalos, a stone in the shape of an egg.
Quick summary so far: The two bombs Pluto and Orcus at a sextile
(Jupiter/Libra) meet above Zarqawi's house and killed him. His sun
at 27 Libra represents the airplane, and Juno's 9th return is sort
of her revenge on him, for what exactly has not been revealed.
This is certainly only one of many ways of looking at the charts,
but I think it is quite a good one, in fact I find it good enough
to recommend to look at vital event charts (like death) from the
point of view of natal sun.
Some maybe deeper hints, in case anybody wants to follow them:
Snakes were the "cats" of antiquity, because they were kept in
houses to catch mice, who, in turn, are the animals of Apollon;
his priests used to wear mice suits, according to Robert Graves
in "The Greek Myths". I have always seen Apollon a bit more
related to Libra than Leo (the pure sun god is rather Helios
than Apollon), but then again the glyph of Leo, which ressembles
also the glyph of the nodes, is a snake.
The month and day of his death are 6 and 7, which gives 42 if
multiplied, the number of provinces in ancient Egypt, which
leads to another deep piece of mythology related to Libra.
In greek mythology, the world emerged out of chaos in form of a
woman, like Venus rose from ocean foam. tPluto at the galactic
center and the nodes of Venus. The galactic center is a huge
black hole, returns complexity back to big mamma; in physics, a
black hole has no attributes except a "temperature". This paired
with Venus' nodes implies a strong touch of birth/death in the
current position of Pluto. Both natal Sun and transiting Orcus
are at sextiles and trines (opportunity and fate) to tPluto.
--
PS: Readers please note that although I have set the "X-No-Archive"
flag to yes, I do not mind replies that quote the above (even if the
only purpose of the reply would be to preserve this post or valuable
parts of it, if desired). I will keep no copy.
LibraLove wrote:
: archive wrote:
: > chompergirl wrote:
: >
: > : What hit him?
: > :
: > : Birthday: October 20, 1966
: > : Amman, Jordan
: >
: > Let me tackle this one from the point of view of Zarqawi's sun.
: > I use the sun sign, since it most strongly represents *life*.
[...]
: > These two threads remind me of a piece of mythology that Liz
: > Greene associates with Libra, namely the story where Teiresias
: > accidentally observed two snakes having sex and was condemned,
: > because he had seen a deep secret, to live 7 years as a woman.
:
: Ha, yeah, or at least that was the excuse he used. ;) This is all very
: interesting. You are quite a scholar of the ancient myths and religions
: as well.
Actually I had never thought of it that way (Teiresias's using
an excuse to dress as a woman). Makes a lot of sense, though.
[...]
: > Zeus let two eagles fly, one from each corner of the world, one
: > from the west and one from the east. Where they met, he placed
: > the Omphalos, a stone in the shape of an egg.
:
: "Omphalos" what an interesting word!
:
: http://www.crystalinks.com/omphalos.html
There is a holy stone to Muslims at Mecca, which could be called
an Omphalos. Here is a link to a very interesting article about it.
Since this is, of course, a very sensitive and private thing to
Muslims, I will not spell out things here:
Bob Trubshaw, "The Black Stone - The Omphalos of the Goddess"
http://www.geocities.com/mabcosmic/articles/bstone.html
: Have you heard Richard Tarnas' CBC interview regarding astrology. He is
: a Harvard scholar and all of a sudden the scholars are starting to
: think there may be something to this astrology stuff. ;)
:
: http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/archives/2006/031906.html
Yes, I did. I would certainly prefer a world in which a physicist
could write and publish about astrology in mainstream peer-reviewed
journals.
: He says this Neptune opp Saturn "between the ideal and the real" to
: close the gap in an unselfish and alturistic way -- a muscular idealism
: and service to others to make a difference -- like the JB and I going
: to New Orleans to help the indigent get legal representation.
:
: I know some people here have contempt for lawyers, but due to our
: justice system, everyone needs representation in the courts -- even
: poor people who cannot afford to hire a lawyer. Is that not the way of
: a democratic goverment with equal rights for all (not just the
: wealthy:) and innocent until proven guilty by a group of their peers?
I think in Switzerland, if you do not have the money to afford a laywer
to defend yourself, the state provides a laywer for you. I guess in the
USA, even if it was so, too, that would probably still not be very fair,
since the US/English law system is more bendable and thus a good laywer
can make more of a difference (As opposed to Middle Europe where law is
more applied like the Romans did, essentially by the letter; there is
still a lot of opportunity to bend things even then, though).
[...]
: > Snakes were the "cats" of antiquity, because they were kept in
: > houses to catch mice, who, in turn, are the animals of Apollon;
: > his priests used to wear mice suits, according to Robert Graves
: > in "The Greek Myths". I have always seen Apollon a bit more
: > related to Libra than Leo (the pure sun god is rather Helios
: > than Apollon), but then again the glyph of Leo, which ressembles
: > also the glyph of the nodes, is a snake.
:
: Apollon is different from Apollo. Correct? Nona G.Press has a page in
: her "New Insights..." book about Apollo being the sun/heat god. Makes
: me want to come to NYC to one of the astro meetings where she speaks
: from time to time. Apollon is "commerce" in the Uranian system.
Apollo and Apollon are the names for the same Greek God. Liz Greene
writes in an article at astro.com, "The Sun-god and the Astrological
Sun" (http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_sungod_e.htm):
: And none of these mythic images is more relevant to the expression
: and meaning of the Sun in the individual horoscope than the nature
: and role of the Greek Sun-god Apollo (we have dropped the final "n"
: from the name in popular usage, but his correct Greek name is Apollon).
: This deity stands behind not only the foundations of Western culture,
: but also behind many of the attributes which Christianity later
: appropriated and associated with Christ.
Helios is the guy on the chariot that carries the sun across the sky
during the day in Greek mythology.
: I think I can do that and stay in the YMCA around the corner where an
: old, old manfriend lives. Great indoor pool at that Y where I took my
: son, now 20, to "Baby Swim". I am inspired now to finish some of this
: work and get to the city for some astrology lectures with the NCGR.
:
: I am working on a whole bunch of breast cancer illustrations to help
: women to not be so fearful of all the proceedures that are required to
: diagnose and then the proceedures that correct anything found in the
: breast. They are in Philly and I would visit them also.
:
: Since I have T. Saturn on my Pluto in Leo and my Sun is in Cancer and
: Saturn rules my 6th house of health. Isn't this project a marvelous
: symbolic anecdote to the breast cancer my mother had in her 50s and I
: might contact with that sort of transit. In fact Saturn is EXACT on my
: Pluto when the pictures to illustrate arrived. :)
Chiron is in opposition to nPluto/tSaturn at about 9 Aquarius. I guess
this fits also well with the healing/helping (Chiron/Aquarius) aspect of
what you are doing.
: I am working with a very talented illustrator in San Antonio and he was
: born June 28, 1960. I am born June 28 and Mr. Rat is born 1960 in
: Philly. I am dating a civil servant working on his J.D. and Mr. Rat is
: a civil servant J.D.
:
: Symbolic energies are so interesting, arent' they? I worked for the AF
: for 2 years when Desert Storm started in 1991. The F-16s were zoning
: over my house/office toward the bombing as I e-mailed the AF to ask
: them, "What the hell?" They refused to comment. ;)
I remember to have heard airplanes regularily fly high across my home in
Switzerland during the first Gulf War (and also, but less, during the
second one), although officially this should not have happened, if I
remember correctly.
: I should go to work for the government again, my chart has affinities
: with the USA chart. In fact I think my chart has the civil servant
: mid-point Mars/MC at 0 Aries.
:
: >
: > The month and day of his death are 6 and 7, which gives 42 if
: > multiplied, the number of provinces in ancient Egypt, which
: > leads to another deep piece of mythology related to Libra.
:
: Hmnn... numerology as well? How cool is this! Has it ever occurred to
: you that you are tossing scholarly pearls before swine here.? LOL
Well, yes and no. I have 3 planets conjunct around about 20 Cancer;
Jupiter followed by Mars and Venus (plus Orcus a bit behind). I do
not want things to change to quickly. I want to make my stuff public
but without immediate public impact, in order to give the world (and
me!) some time to adapt to it. Usenet is ideal for that, because the
opinions are so diverse and almost everybody (at least almost everybody
who posts) is essentially busy to bring across the things that are on
their heart, so that they have very little time to listen and to
consider in detail what others have to say. Not that I did plan this
before I started to post in June 2002; it just came out this way. Call
it luck with respect to protection (Jupiter in Cancer). I have a web
site, where I already present a few of my pearls in a more coherent and
neutral way, and I intend to grow it slowly over they years, and also
to incorporate astrology there. It is very difficult to find neutral
descriptions for such things in a world that has such a great split
between science/technology and the "metaphysical stuff", like astrology
or telepathy or divination (Tarot, I Ching, etc.).
There appear also to be deeper reasons why this slow approach is
more fruitful for me especially at this moment than my moon/Chaos
at MC in Aries often somewhat childish fight for public attention
in usenet:
My northern node is at about 20 Taurus. This suggest that in "this
lifetime" a more passive way that advertises by beautiful content
rather than fighting and making fated decisions about myself and
others is more satisfying. At the moment there is a very slow transit
of Sedna (the most far out Kuiper Belt or even an Oort Cloud object)
across my northern node. Sedna looses her fingers in the myth. So
she has very little opportunity to forge reality directly.
(* 1966-08-07 04:11 (early morning) in Zurich, 03:11 UTC)
My site (www.exactphilosophy.net) is also already aiming at Pluto
in Capricorn. At the moment, with Pluto still in Sagittarius, almost
nobody reads a web site like one would traditionally read a book,
namely: Buy book, read book from beginning to end, put book into
bookshelf for future rereading or reference. Most visitors treat
sites they visit like a bookstore, they pick up a few virtual "books"
browse around a little bit and then move on to the next item.
My site aims more at people who take the time to consider and read
things one after the other. There is no other way in the end to
convey new ideas of a certain complexity. Of course, only sites of
a certain quality and minimality, and yet accessibility, are worth
such a "read it all" approach. I hope to become one of them during
the next two decades, or so. Maybe a bit naive, maybe just right.
: > In greek mythology, the world emerged out of chaos in form of a
: > woman, like Venus rose from ocean foam. tPluto at the galactic
: > center and the nodes of Venus. The galactic center is a huge
: > black hole, returns complexity back to big mamma; in physics, a
: > black hole has no attributes except a "temperature". This paired
: > with Venus' nodes implies a strong touch of birth/death in the
: > current position of Pluto. Both natal Sun and transiting Orcus
: > are at sextiles and trines (opportunity and fate) to tPluto.
:
: Orcus is a Kuiper belt object known as 2004 DW (for those who do not
: know here) and you follow it?
Yes, I do. It is not much smaller than Pluto.
Actually, there are a couple more things that I can say with regard to
Quaoar, another Kuiper Belt object, a bit smaller than Orcus. As I have
mentioned, nQuaoar is conjunct Zarqawi's nSun in Libra. Currently, Quaoar
is at 15 Sagittarius, i.e. part of a great cross formed by Uranus in
Aquarius, Lilith in Virgo, the sun in Gemini, and Quaoar in Sagittarius.
Since one of these axes (Pisces/Virgo) relates to the Age of Pisces,
the time of death had also a strong relation to Christian/Muslim faith.
It is also interesting that the in the Sibly chart for the USA (Sag AC)
Quaoar is closely conjunct the US moon at about 26 Aquarius (i.e. at a
trine to Zarqawi's nSun, nQuaoar and the tMoon at the moment the bombs
fell on the house Zarqawi was in).
: Then the GC is has a temperature then it has a nanometer color reading?
: Do you know what it is? I worked a lot with nanometers of temp/color
: when I worked for the AF and the human engineering guys.
:
: http://acept.la.asu.edu/PiN/rdg/color/color.shtml
Not quite, my statement was a little more abstract.
No light emerges from a black hole, so it is not possible
to measure a temperature by measuring the frequency of the
blackbody radiation like for a regular piece of matter.
It is rather so that all properties of a black hole can be
defined by a single parameter. One can express this in terms
of the Schwarzschild radius, the radius of no return for
anything that falls into the black hole, including light.
This Schwarzschild radius derives directly from the mass
contained inside the black hole. Formally this parameter
can also be expressed as something that is formally similar
to the way a temperature is used in formulas for a regular
body that is at thermal equilibrium, if I am not mistaken.
I think it Steven Hawking who made that observation, or at
least he was probably crucially involved.
The mass of the Galactic Center is about 3 million times
the mass of our sun; its Schwarzschild radius is about
8 million kilometers (about 25 lightseconds or a bit more
than 20 times the diameter of the moon).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius
: So would you suggest Robert Graves, "The Greek Myths", Bullfinch's and
: any others you would recommend? Nona Gwynn Press is quite the scholar
: of Greek and Roman myths. She uses the asteroids with those names
: extremely well!
I mostly use Robert Graves and Google ;) I also like to look at direct
translations of the myths, which are often available online. One piece
that I like a lot, for example, are the so-called "Homeric Hymns",
because they describe quite a few major gods (and thus major planets)
quite well, in my view (link to Perseus Archive at Tufts University):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Aabo%3Atlg%2C0013%2C001&query=1
: I have a tape of her reading Princess Diana's chart and her fatal
: accident with a bazzillion asteroids with names like Demeter, Paris,
: Odysseus, etc. I need to find that tape and listen again. I am amazed
: at her book, "New Insights in Astrology". She has a Master's of Art
: History (I believe) from Columbia U.
:
: I have a Masters with a minor in art history at UT (not an equivalent
: to hers by any means) where of course, many of the gods and goddesses
: are depicted in scupture as well as paintings and drawings.
:
: Best regards and thanks for this post! LL
Thanks, too, for this reply. :)
: > --
: > PS: Readers please note that although I have set the "X-No-Archive"
: > flag to yes, I do not mind replies that quote the above (even if the
: > only purpose of the reply would be to preserve this post or valuable
: > parts of it, if desired). I will keep no copy.
"Xena" Athena
Questions regarding new "planet" "Xena":
a) Planet or not ?
b) If planet, then ruler of which sign ?
c) If planet, then what name ?
My prediction:
a) Planet.
b) Virgo.
c) Athena.
Based on various considerations, but in the end mainly on
a comparison of greek mythology with birth charts and other
associations related to "Xena".
Just some maybe a bit unexpected arguments:
- Although there is already a small asteroid called Athene
(with an "e" at the end; discovered 22 July 1917 by M. F.
Wolf in Heidelberg Germany) there is no Athena with "a".
In other words, this name is likely the only name of a
major greco-roman god/goddess that can be assigned to a
new planet without taking away a name from an object that
is already named. Note that this would not be the only
planet with a greek name, since also Pluto is the greek
name for the god of the underworld (while Mercury, Venus,
Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are all roman names).
- Two planets are currently rulers of two signs (except in
strictly traditional astrology): Venus (rules Taurus/Libra)
and Mercury (Gemini/Virgo). In mythology, Venus always
wins beauty (fate) contests and Athene is considered the
best warrior of the gods (although only a reluctant one).
This makes it likely that these two will win (Venus keeps
rule over two signs, while Mercury loses one; and Athena
conquers Virgo rulership from Mercury (mind, cf. below)).
- According to Robert Graves, Athena is an inversion of the
sumerian Anatha, "Queen of Heaven". This would be a good
reason for assigning her name to the currently outermost
object of relatively planetary size in the solar system.
(What a witty and wise architect Zeus/Jupiter is :)
Very briefly some maybe more obvious considerations:
- Collective wish to keep Pluto (established planet).
- Collective wish to rebalance (Aquarius' next planet).
- Main discoverer with Uranus/Pluto in Virgo.
- Athene sprang from Zeus' forehead (Aries; mind/Mercury),
- Lots of Aries in charts around "Xena" (Lucy Lawless, etc.).
- Northern lunar node in Aries (yet), "Xena" in Aries.
- Prometheus formed man with Athena's consent from clay/water.
- Venus' inherent bisexuality.
- Uranus in Pisces.
- X-ena, Ath-ena <=> Atha-ana, Anatha.
Consider my life in usenet in light of my stellar parans.
Alain Stalder
--
http:/www.exactphilosophy.net
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WW wrote:
: >> Questions regarding new "planet" "Xena":
:
: >> a) Planet or not ?
: >> b) If planet, then ruler of which sign ?
:
: All the signs already have rulers, Alain. Do you mean, perhaps, what sign is
: it affiliated with? Or what sign is like it? Where does the idea come from
: that any newly discovered planet or whatever must rule a sign?
In the eyes of at least many astrologers, Uranus is at least co-ruler
of Aquarius, Neptune is at least co-ruler of Pisces, and Pluto is at
least co-ruler of Scorpio. So the main argument why I chose to try to
predict which sign planet "Xena" would rule (if it becomes a planet),
was a historical one: Since the previous planetary discoveries lead
to assigning rulership to them and thus removing rulership at least
partiallly from the previous ruler, I predict that the new one will
also be assigned at least co-rulership of a sign in the eyes of many
astrologers (if it becomes a planet).
I do not say, though, that this would necessarily be a "good" thing.
I am aware that the traditional system has its advantages and that
reassigning rulership sort of breaks some of its properties and thus
also some of its advantages.
The main reason that static rigid structures have problems to persist
in our times, is related to the Age of Aquarius. While Capricorn, one
of the two signs traditionally ruled by Saturn, the female one, is a
lot about defining structures and retaining them across a long time,
Aquarius, the male sign traditionally ruled by Saturn, shows a different
side of Saturn, that wants to keep a steady rolling progress, while at
the same time keeping things structured.
This is why I think that changes in astrological systems have generally
a better chance to make it than attempts to keep things as they were in
the past. Again this is not saying that that is a "good" thing per se,
it is only a signature of current times to be generally colored by the
sign of Aquarius.
This January, I "met" a Swiss guy at a german speaking discussion forum.
He is a Capricorn and is considering ways to expand the tradtional scheme
of rulerships of signs (incl. exaltation etc.) in a natural and coherent
way. In a private message he presented at least some quite interesting
new ideas, based on about 20 years of work and consideration. He intends
to publish this in the near future, so it will at least be interesting to
see a few new ideas that try to combine (currenly unavoidable) progress
and natural structures that have been observed during centuries and are
contained in the traditional system.
He is Swiss like me. Switzerland (the original founding date) has Pluto
in Aquarius, but almost all other planets in Leo, and Saturn in Aries,
so progress is Switzerland is something that only happens if absolutely
(Pluto/Saturn) necessary.
: >> - Two planets are currently rulers of two signs (except in
: >> strictly traditional astrology): Venus (rules Taurus/Libra)
: >> and Mercury (Gemini/Virgo).
:
: Actually, it is not "except in strictly traditional astrology," but
: "*particularly* in strictly traditional astrology" where the rulership
: concept is a main underpinning.
Yes, my statement was a bit unprecise. I meant to say that in traditional
astrology, 5 planets have two rulers, while in a modern view, only two
signs have retained sole rulership over two signs. In other words, the
word "except" was referring to "exactly two planets" above.
: I am all for research and exploration of new concepts and ideas as well as
: improvement of techniques and systems. But I have to wonder why some
: astrologers keep trying to reinvent the wheel.
Essentially I agree. Naturally, since I have the sun in Leo and am Swiss,
I prefer to have only fundamental and thus more lasting progress.
Dan Barkye wrote:
: Three notes:
:
: I will remind that a definition of Libra re sex is that its children are
: of an inclination to be overly sexual.
:
: I also remind that, according to ancient esoteric science, Libra was
: associated with the differentiation of sex earlier in the formative
: stages of humankind.
:
: I also remind that Libra is the sign of war and warriors (the "army" is
: assigned to Vir, being the sign of service), of the "open enemy", being
: the sign ruling the 7th h, the h of "the other", as opposed to the 12th,
: the "hidden enemy" (in this regard, Lib is the antiscia of Pis, the
: ruling sign of 12th).
I think I can say few original things about Libra and sex, but first a
quick question:
With "its children" above do you mean "Libras are of an inclination to be
overly sexual" or "literal children of Libras (once they have grown up, of
course) are of an inclination to be overly sexual". I guess several posters
read this the first way. ;)
The following is a synthesis of several things:
- modern psychological astrology
- traditional methods
- new fundamental(ist) stuff that emerged during the recent Saturn/Pluto
opposition and which connects back to antique classical roots
These things are meant to be compatible in the following. The new models
that I use are at first sight a bit abstract and maybe a bit blunt, but
their essential symbolic predictions are (in my view) fully compatible
with current wisdom from different sides.
A general principle that I apply often is association. Let me do this
right on with a concrete example concerning Libra and sex:
"Six" (the number 6) and "sex" are so similar words that there is bound
to be some sort of connection between the two. In my experience, even
in instances where there seems to be no direct causal or etymological
connection between words, digging a bit deeper (to older languages, or
comparing conceptual content of the two words), it almost always turns
out that "what sounds similar is similar".
The number six appears in the hexagram (two triangles supperimposed,
one pointing up and the other one pointing down). The triangle pointing
up represents the male sex (testicles plus erect penis), while the
triangle that points down is (obviously) the female sex.
Thus the hexagram, although certainly having many more subtle meanings,
is in a way quite directly about sex, about the sexual unification of
the male and female sexual organs, i.e. the hexagram is about sex.
The hexagram also combines the glyphs for all four elements (Fire and
Air glyphs are triangles that point up, the additional horizontal line
within the Air triangle is also part of the hexagram; Water and Earth
glyphs are triangles that point up).
Now let me present very briefly the new models I will use.
In June 2002, I presented a model of the zodiac that describes the 12
signs of the zodiac in a more analytical way, namely it describes the
signs in terms of transformations of the elements. Very briefly:
Fire signs: Earth => Fire => Air (fire burns wood to smoke)
Air signs: Fire => Air => Water (clould emits lightning and rain)
Water signs: Earth => Water => Air (ice-water-vapor, source-river-sea)
Earth signs: Fire => Earth => Water (tree needs water/roots and sun/leaves)
I do not have the time and space here to expose this model in detail
and to show what all it gets "right", nor will I have the time and
space to do so with the next two things I present. I can only do this
here in a fragmentary way, namely by applying it subsequently to 6/sex
and Libra and hopefully derive a few interesting things there...
In an extension of the above model, I also number elements as follows:
1 - Fire (conjunction aspect, sun)
2 - Air (opposition aspect, moon)
3 - Water (trine aspect, Venus)
4 - Earth (square aspect, Mars)
If you apply these numbers to my above model, you get by addition
some very interesting connections:
Transformation of Fire (E=>F=>A): 4+1+2 = 7
Transformation of Air (F=>A=>W): 1+2+3 = 6
Transformation of Water (E=>W=>A): 4+3+2 = 9
Transformation of Earth (F=>E=>W): 1+4+3 = 8
Putting it all together, you get the following extended model,
which I will apply in various ways to Libra/6/sex soon:
1 - Fire, conjunction, sun
2 - Air, opposition, moon
3 - Water, trine, Venus
4 - Earth, square, Mars
5 - 5th Element / Transformation, quintile, Mercury
6 - Transformation of Air, sextile, Jupiter
7 - Transformation of Fire, septile, Saturn
8 - Transformation of Earth, octile, Uranus
9 - Transformation of Water, novile, Neptune
10 - Transformation of transformation, decile, Pluto
The Chinese Book of Changes is about transformations, and it comes
in 64 = 8 x 8 symbols (hexagrams), while the Tao Te Ching, comes
in 9 x 9 parts. Symbolically, the latter (Tao) is more watery, more
neptunian, less structured, while formre (I Ching) is a lot more
specific. In ancient China, there is also something called the 36
Stragagems of War, i.e. 6 x 6.
Now, after ample preparationm let me start to focus in on Libra...
According to the above, the number 6 is related to the transformation
of Air. Since Libra is the middle of the 3 Air signs, in my model,
Libra is the one sign that most strongly expresses this transformation
of Air (since it is the middle Air sign, consisting partially of Fire
and partially of Water, while evolving towards water; in the model
Gemini is mainly Fire (quickness, etc.) and Aquarius is mainly Water
(coherence, universal love, continuous progressive flow, etc.)).
So this establishes a strong link between Libra and 6 and, since 6 is
strongly linked with sex, also a relatively strong link between Libra
and sex.
Since the Chinese Stratagems of War are 36 (6 x 6), there seems to be
also a connection between Libra/sex and war. (Cf. what Dan wrote above).
The number 6 is the number of opposing sign pairs (Aries-Libra, etc.).
Thus handling opposites is an important issue for Libra (looking at the
same issue from two sides, balancing the opposites or unifying them,
and so on). This becomes even clearer if the number 6 is split into two
pairs: 6 = 3 + 3. The number 3 is about beauty, love and fate (think
Water, Venus or trines, as in the model above). In that sense, the
number 6 becomes the choice between two different fates (3), which
explains among other things also why the sextile aspect is considered
to be related to opportunities (i.e. the choice between two different
fates, that are thus no longer that fated).
The number 6 is also 4 + 2 or 5 + 1. The latter combination hints at
the messenger Hermes (Mercury - 5) that brings a thing (one - 1) down
to earth for Zeus (Jupiter - 6). Dyonisus, for example, was brought
by Hermes to the 5 nymphs of the Heliconian Mount Nysa.
Let me also try to isolate a bit in which way exactly Libra is related
to homosexuality.
There is one of the 12 signs of the zodiac that is clearly related to
homosexuality: Aquarius. In greek mythology, the water bearer that is
the constellation Aquarius is Ganymedes, the young man that Zeus fell
in love with and who replaced Hebe as cup-bearer to the gods.
Saturn rules Aquarius and also Saturn is exalted in Libra. CFA mentioned
in another post in this thread a possible relation of homosexuality and
the relation to the father. Zeus used to be cup-bearer to Cronos/Saturn
when he was young.
Going back to my model, although Libra is in the middle of a transfomation
between Gemini (Fire, boy) and Aquarius (Water, old man) people grow older
and thus although Libra balances things, Libra also tends rather towards
Aquarius with time.
There is a very general problem with balancing opposites: Which is more
harmonic, two opposites or two of the same ? If you have a pair of scales
and put something female on the left side and something male on the right
side, then the female side will be heavier, simply because the female
elements Water and Earth are literally heavier than Fire and Air.
Visual sexual triggers are essentially always symmetric, they feature two
same things side by side: sexual organs, breasts, butt cheeks, eyes, etc.
Thus it seems to be clearly so that Libra as a sign (not necessarily many
or more Libra individuals than average) leans rather towards homosexuality
than towards heterosexuality.
Venus (ruler of Libra) certainly also contains some of this.
I am sure the previous analysis was certainly neither complete not likely
free from bias. But I hope to have at least shown a little bit that the
new methods are quite useful both for basic and deeper investigations.
Dan Barkye wrote:
: -- Yeah, I believe too that, in certain circumstances, Ven can be prone
: to vice, frex, negative aspects w the outers, Ura, Nep and Plu, a
: negative Sco location, and so, by implication, Lib, as a sign and as a
: generalized characteristic, can give a tendency to homosexuality.
:
: Coupled w the Air element it can give cranky ideas in such negative
: configs, like frex extreme libertarianism and/or admissive tendencies
: for himself and others.
: Esp so w a negative (location, aspects) Ura, even thru the positive
: aspects w it, not to mention the negative.
:
: Also, having Sco naturally on its 2nd h of personal values, abstract and
: concrete, can emphasize the Sco sex aspect together w its secrecy and
: covert aspects, in the Libran value set of certain individuals,
: depending on their chart, of course.
:
: Paradoxically, having Vir on the 12th h of self-undoing and pleasures,
: can give a Libran a puritan attitude toward such activities, b/c of the
: analytical and prude nature of Vir.
:
: Now, imagine a Lib on 1st w a Sco Ven op Ura in Tau, or sq it in Aq -
: sex and unconventionality/unpredictability/suddenness/rebelliousness.
: Change Ura w Plu, for yet another such aspect of Lib/Ven, even more
: powerful - sex and force/coercion/morbidity.
:
: These configs will almost certainly make a sex machine, I'd say.
Interesting. I'd say I essentially agree.
I guess it is pretty well established that the star sign of Libra
was created by removing the claws from a larger Scorpio and turning
them into scale pans. And, if I remember correctly, also Virgo was
once part of a larger sign that included also the stars of current
Libra and Scorpio (which is, again if I remember correctly, one of
the reasons why the glyphs of Virgo and Scorpio are quite similar).
Would be very interesting to know about the origins of this, but I
guess with Uranus in Pisces it will be difficult to get much beyond
by direct analysis (Black moon Lilith in Virgo or not). As far as
I know, it is quite certain that many cultures started with a single
star sign ("sky") and then split it up into first just two or three
very large signs, which are also the seasons, which also reflects in
various chase/transformation myths (e.g. Zeus chasing a woman, while
both transform into different animals, and he finally (be)gets her,
or, in older myths, a female goddess chases and then devours the man).
Anyway, it is maybe somewhat understandable that it is not easy for
Libra to keep a balance as a male sign between the two female adult
signs Virgo and Scorpio, and not to go either way. I guess this also
explains a bit why Saturn is exalted in Libra (i.e. considered by
traditional astrology the equivalent of "a good guest" in the sign).
Walk like an Egyptian...
When I registered this e-mail with groups.google.com this
morning (2005-10-23 ca. 07:50 Zurich, 05:50 UTC), I was
asked to enter a word displayed on an image (to prevent
automatic registrations). Usually that word is nonsense,
but this time the word was "turing" (really!).
Fits very well with what I had in mind (something about
Venus and reflection and maybe other things that I am not
aware at the moment, but might come out now via that hint).
So let me write while I surf around...
Alan Turing was born 1912-06-23 02:15 London 02:15 UTC,
see http://www.astrotheme.fr/portraits/jczGKz36Q7Td.htm,
with the northern lunar node at 17*54 Aries, conjunct the
nodes now (and conjunct my MC at 14* and moon at 17*18).
Alan Turing is maybe most famous for his "Turing Test",
a setup aimed at expermentally determining intelligence:
Somebody is sitting at a computer terminal and can type
questions. The other side (a human being, a computer,
a space alien, etc.) can send a response. If the querent
cannot prove that the responses are sent from a machine,
the replies are defined as intelligent, at least as
intelligent as the querent.
This relates also to the computer program ELIZA:
: Pisces combine the very complex with the very simple.
: The computer program Eliza, an early program that tried
: to produce artificial intelligence, got very far with
: very simple means; it was essentially a mirror, like
: the surface of the sea. If you typed "X are Y", it would
: typically respond "Why do you think that X are Y ?" or
: if you mentioned, say, your mother, it would ask you to
: tell it more about your family, and often it would just
: ask you to go on. Surprisingly, many people experienced
: Eliza (who they thought was a real person typing the
: answers) to understand them and to feel with them,
: something that hardly any of the much more complex
: computer programs of today has ever achieved.
-- http://www.exactphilosophy.net/s309pisces.html
In Alan Turing's chart, I would associate his test maybe
most strongly with his Venus conjunct Pluto (Pluto leading)
at the end of Gemini. An attempt to get to the bottom of
intelligence (Mercury) by communication (Mercury too),
using a mirror (Venus' glyph).
So let me get to roughly what I had in mind initially.
Let me once more define
FIRE:= OUT+MOVE
EARTH:= OUT+REST
AIR:= IN+REST
WATER:= IN+MOVE
ETHER:= what transforms the elements into each other
And add this simple observation:
OUTside more things rest than move
INside more things move than rest
(I am thinking here of relative motion between all "points".)
Which leads once more to:
FIRE and AIR are active (have to go against the majority)
EARTH and WATER are passive
Implicitly I am making an assumption that I see very much
on the axis Aries-Libra: I am putting myself ("man") into
the center. This spring I was at a lecture by astrophysicst
Martin Rees (part of a conference related to Einstein at
the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich).
During that lecture he displayed a slide with a Uroboros
on it (a snake in a ring that bites its own tail). He had
used a similar slide a few years ago, but now it had images
around it, head and tail of the snake on top, man at the
bottom, i.e. in the middle of the circle, larger things
closer to the head, smaller things closer to the tail.
I counted the symbols, including head and tail it was 12!
So, why not take things literally and associate head and
tail with Aries and Pisces, and man with Libra/Virgo.
Martin Rees remarked that it was astonishing that man was
at the center in terms of scale. The size factor between
the biggest things and a human being was pretty much the
same as between a human being and the smallest things.
On second thought, of course, this is not so astonishing,
because we perceive the world from our standpoint, thus
our exploration of the world is likely to proceed roughly
the same distance in all directions (notice the usage of
the "royal we", which Liz Greene assciates with Libra).
Now, something new.
The view above with a world composed of IN/OUT and
REST/MOVE, is quite a bit narcissistic and it is Air.
Whatever the self can perceive as "IN", like images
in the mind, abstract thoughts, feelings, etc. cannot
really be in, cannot be part of the self, because
they can be observed and distinguished by the self
that is observing them.
Idea: This might relate self to what I defined as
ETHER, the fifth element, free will / fate; or in
other words: "We define our own reality".
(Thanks a lot to Edmund Wollman for a post about
Venus and her mirror sometime this summer).
Venus' mirror is quite commonly used. For example,
the element that I defined as IN+MOVE is called
"Water" by astrologers and, yet, associated with
emotions/feelings, i.e. with something perceived
as internal. Association.
One more remark on the side, a maybe quite practical
variation of "We create our own reality":
Weather predictions only work a few days ahead. The
reason for this appears to be quite a fundamental one:
Weather is a chaotic system (Venus). Tiny differences
now can lead to huge differences a week from now.
Scientists often use the image of a "Butterfly Effect".
If a butterfly moves its wings in Tokyo now, it might
cause a storm in New York a week ahead, or so.
Accordingly, also what I (or you, or we) do, could have
a great effect on at least the path that a hurricane
takes. If the sea is warm enough and also other general
conditions fit, there will probably unavoidably be some
hurricanes, but exactly how strong they become and where
and when exactly they hit land, might be something that
is more chaotic and thus might be with the reach of at
least collective influence. Thus a more pragmatic and
less desperate view of the future might help.
)o+
I wrote (actually posted half a year ago to aat and amm) as
hermes@exactphilosophy.net:
: When I registered this e-mail with groups.google.com this
: morning (2005-10-23 ca. 07:50 Zurich, 05:50 UTC), I was
: asked to enter a word displayed on an image (to prevent
: automatic registrations). Usually that word is nonsense,
: but this time the word was "turing" (really!).
:
: Fits very well with what I had in mind (something about
: Venus and reflection and maybe other things that I am not
: aware at the moment, but might come out now via that hint).
: So let me write while I surf around...
:
: Alan Turing was born 1912-06-23 02:15 London 02:15 UTC,
: see http://www.astrotheme.fr/portraits/jczGKz36Q7Td.htm,
: with the northern lunar node at 17*54 Aries, conjunct the
: nodes now (and conjunct my MC at 14* and moon at 17*18).
:
: Alan Turing is maybe most famous for his "Turing Test",
: a setup aimed at expermentally determining intelligence:
: Somebody is sitting at a computer terminal and can type
: questions. The other side (a human being, a computer,
: a space alien, etc.) can send a response. If the querent
: cannot prove that the responses are sent from a machine,
: the replies are defined as intelligent, at least as
: intelligent as the querent.
:
: This relates also to the computer program ELIZA:
: : Pisces combine the very complex with the very simple.
: : The computer program Eliza, an early program that tried
: : to produce artificial intelligence, got very far with
: : very simple means; it was essentially a mirror, like
: : the surface of the sea. If you typed "X are Y", it would
: : typically respond "Why do you think that X are Y ?" or
: : if you mentioned, say, your mother, it would ask you to
: : tell it more about your family, and often it would just
: : ask you to go on. Surprisingly, many people experienced
: : Eliza (who they thought was a real person typing the
: : answers) to understand them and to feel with them,
: : something that hardly any of the much more complex
: : computer programs of today has ever achieved.
: -- http://www.exactphilosophy.net/s309pisces.html
:
: In Alan Turing's chart, I would associate his test maybe
: most strongly with his Venus conjunct Pluto (Pluto leading)
: at the end of Gemini. An attempt to get to the bottom of
: intelligence (Mercury) by communication (Mercury too),
: using a mirror (Venus' glyph).
:
: So let me get to roughly what I had in mind initially.
:
: Let me once more define
:
: FIRE:= OUT+MOVE
: EARTH:= OUT+REST
: AIR:= IN+REST
: WATER:= IN+MOVE
:
: ETHER:= what transforms the elements into each other
:
: And add this simple observation:
:
: OUTside more things rest than move
: INside more things move than rest
:
: (I am thinking here of relative motion between all "points".)
:
: Which leads once more to:
:
: FIRE and AIR are active (have to go against the majority)
: EARTH and WATER are passive
:
: Implicitly I am making an assumption that I see very much
: on the axis Aries-Libra: I am putting myself ("man") into
: the center. This spring I was at a lecture by astrophysicst
: Martin Rees (part of a conference related to Einstein at
: the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich).
:
: During that lecture he displayed a slide with a Uroboros
: on it (a snake in a ring that bites its own tail). He had
: used a similar slide a few years ago, but now it had images
: around it, head and tail of the snake on top, man at the
: bottom, i.e. in the middle of the circle, larger things
: closer to the head, smaller things closer to the tail.
:
: I counted the symbols, including head and tail it was 12!
:
: So, why not take things literally and associate head and
: tail with Aries and Pisces, and man with Libra/Virgo.
:
: Martin Rees remarked that it was astonishing that man was
: at the center in terms of scale. The size factor between
: the biggest things and a human being was pretty much the
: same as between a human being and the smallest things.
:
: On second thought, of course, this is not so astonishing,
: because we perceive the world from our standpoint, thus
: our exploration of the world is likely to proceed roughly
: the same distance in all directions (notice the usage of
: the "royal we", which Liz Greene assciates with Libra).
:
: Now, something new.
:
: The view above with a world composed of IN/OUT and
: REST/MOVE, is quite a bit narcissistic and it is Air.
:
: Whatever the self can perceive as "IN", like images
: in the mind, abstract thoughts, feelings, etc. cannot
: really be in, cannot be part of the self, because
: they can be observed and distinguished by the self
: that is observing them.
:
: Idea: This might relate self to what I defined as
: ETHER, the fifth element, free will / fate; or in
: other words: "We define our own reality".
:
: (Thanks a lot to Edmund Wollman for a post about
: Venus and her mirror sometime this summer).
:
: Venus' mirror is quite commonly used. For example,
: the element that I defined as IN+MOVE is called
: "Water" by astrologers and, yet, associated with
: emotions/feelings, i.e. with something perceived
: as internal. Association.
:
: One more remark on the side, a maybe quite practical
: variation of "We create our own reality":
:
: Weather predictions only work a few days ahead. The
: reason for this appears to be quite a fundamental one:
: Weather is a chaotic system (Venus). Tiny differences
: now can lead to huge differences a week from now.
: Scientists often use the image of a "Butterfly Effect".
: If a butterfly moves its wings in Tokyo now, it might
: cause a storm in New York a week ahead, or so.
:
: Accordingly, also what I (or you, or we) do, could have
: a great effect on at least the path that a hurricane
: takes. If the sea is warm enough and also other general
: conditions fit, there will probably unavoidably be some
: hurricanes, but exactly how strong they become and where
: and when exactly they hit land, might be something that
: is more chaotic and thus might be with the reach of at
: least collective influence. Thus a more pragmatic and
: less desperate view of the future might help.
:
: )o+
I don't know the literal reasons why this post turned up
here more than half a year after I posted it. Probably it
has to do with it being posted to alt.astrology.tropical
and alt.astrology.moderated. Symbolically, I would relate
this most strongly with the nodes entry into Pisces/Virgo
(c.f Uroboros above). :)
When I wrote this post, I was not consciously aware that
Alan Turing (born the same day, 23 June, that Dan Barkye
started the "Sensitive Issue" thread), was gay.
I googled around a litte bit then. Here is what I remember:
He is the one who broke the German/Nazi Enigma cryptography
engine during WW II (puns: war, Nazis, etc.). Later on, it
became public that he had sex with a younger man and was
convicted to "a choice": Either go to prison or have several
Oestrogen injections to dampen his sexual drive. He chose
(and that decision is in my view one of the gayest things
that I can imagine) to have the Oestrogen injections. As far
as I remember it was during that time or shortly afterwards
that he committed suicide, with an apple poisoned with
cyanide or something like that.
The apple links (among other things) to Apollon whose name
may either (again a choice) derive from a word that means
"destroyer" or from one that means "apple".
One more thing: After his suicide his mother speculated that
his death might have been an accident, saying that he "was
always not very careful with chemicals". Literally it is very
hard to believe that this was the case, suicide (or murder)
is much more likely.
In what way are Aries and sun/Leo involved with homosexuality?
I remember an anecdote about the current president (moon Libra,
Leo AC) who once kissed an older Democratic Texan former
Governor (or something like that) in order to reach him and get
his support for running as Governor of Texas.
Still amazed at how easily and precisely analysis emerges at
alt.astrology.tropcial (where is Venus there?)...
Alain
PS: Again cross-posted also to aat, so I hope it will turn up
before autumn ;)
Jim Nastic wrote:
: Yet, I can look at George Michael's chart, and we know he's gay, but he has
: no Venus-Uranus aspect. (A wide trine to Saturn, though.) He does have Venus
: in Gemini, square a Mars-Pluto conjunction in Virgo. But then, I know a
: female who also has Venus in Gemini square a Mars-Pluto conjunction in
: Virgo, and she's not gay.
What about Robbie Williams? Might he be just as gay as George
Michael was 20 years ago, i.e. privately gay, but not officially
so, say for business reasons? I am not sure.
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/5sk2BrBdFxMy.htm
Sun conjunct Jupiter at 25 Aquarius, trine Saturn at 28 Gemini
trine Uranus at about 28 Libra. His Venus at 26 Capricorn is
at a square to Uranus in Gemini.
I wrote:
> This relates also to the computer program ELIZA:
> : Pisces combine the very complex with the very simple.
> : The computer program Eliza, an early program that tried
> : to produce artificial intelligence, got very far with
> : very simple means; it was essentially a mirror, like
> : the surface of the sea. If you typed "X are Y", it would
> : typically respond "Why do you think that X are Y ?" or
> : if you mentioned, say, your mother, it would ask you to
> : tell it more about your family, and often it would just
> : ask you to go on. Surprisingly, many people experienced
> : Eliza (who they thought was a real person typing the
> : answers) to understand them and to feel with them,
> : something that hardly any of the much more complex
> : computer programs of today has ever achieved.
> -- http://www.exactphilosophy.net/s309pisces.html
Here they are again, X and Y chromosomes, related to Pisces
this time (c.f. recent thread at aam related to the Da Vinci
Code). Venus is exalted in Pisces (of which I was not aware
at the time I wrote the above passage, in September 2001;
9/11 has a Libra ascendent).
PS: The link indicated above no longer works, instead go to
http://www.exactphilosophy.net and download odyssey.zip from
the Archive section.
cfa@alt.net wrote:
: Don't forget sex presents that delicious paradox: to enjoy it fully
: means giving up 'control', or at least the illusion of control. And
: giving up control always presents a dilemma, particularly for Scorpio
: sensibilities.
The two planets that I would associate mostly with sex are Venus
and Mars. They are both the only planets who rule (traditionally)
two signs that are at a quincunx to each other (Taurus-Libra and
Aries-Scorpio). In mythology Venus/Aphrodite cheats on her husband
Hephaistos/Vulcanos by having sex with Ares/Mars every night.
There is an interesting article by Dane Rudhyar at www.astro.com,
but unfortunately only a german translation. It is titled "Mars,
Venus and Emotional Life":
http://www.astro.com/astrologie/in_rudhyar_g.htm
If I translate correctly, it is an excerpt from a book that
appeared in english under the title "The Planetarization of
Consciousness".
WW (do I know you???) wrote:
: > Still amazed at how easily and precisely analysis emerges at
: > alt.astrology.tropcial (where is Venus there?)...
:
: lol! It's been so long, I don't have the aat chart any more.
: Venus was in Leo, 9th house opp Uranus in AQU, IIRC.
18 September 2001, 14:12 Lisle IL (19:12 UTC)
When I posted (23 Oct 2005) aat's progressed sun was about
to enter Libra (29*56). This middle point of the zodiac that
was recently touched by the southern node is related to the
numbers 6 and 7. Multiplied they give 42, i.e. the number of
provinces in ancient Egypt and the number of questions and
judges in the Hall of Ma'at, between the world of the living
and the kingdom of the dead, which Liz Greene does relate to
Libra in her "The Astrology of Fate". I also mention that
piece of mythology in my original document (see my site).
A male friend of mine (Capricorn) is married to a woman who
says that she can talk to the dead. Although, in my view,
she does not really talk to the dead, but rather connects
to unconscious knowledge in the living, she fits very well
with the above: Sun in Libra, Pluto just at the beginning
of Libra, favorite color orange, angels, two dogs that I
cannot help to identify with Anubis and that other wolf or
jackal white counterpart with the unspeakable name who
guide the dead either way to rebirth or not.
That's the nodes. Look like this was triggered by the
current transit of the nodes (I think Pete Phoenix, who
I guess was the one who essentially designed the chart,
started his usenet postings with a post about draconic
charts, i.e. charts with the northern node at the AC).
Reminds me also of Douglas Adams (also sun in Pisces) and
his theories about how pens or socks disappear through
wormholes and reappear elsewhere and/or at another time.
And, of course, it was also Douglas Adams who made the
number 42 popular in our current times.
See also section "Mythology in Life" in my main document
(Archive section at exactphilosophy.net, odyssey.zip,
document discoveries.pdf within), which another story
related to WW II and Britain, including the two sexless
beings who rescued Inanna from the underworld...
WW (do I know you ?????????????????) wrote:
: "archive" <archive@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: news:archive-6B8C69.08073605072006@news.bluewin.ch...
: > WW (do I know you???) wrote:
: > : > Still amazed at how easily and precisely analysis emerges at
: > : > alt.astrology.tropcial (where is Venus there?)...
: > :
: > : lol! It's been so long, I don't have the aat chart any more.
: > : Venus was in Leo, 9th house opp Uranus in AQU, IIRC.
: >
: > 18 September 2001, 14:12 Lisle IL (19:12 UTC)
: >
: Thanks, I looked it up in Google and was about to post it. ;-)
Sorry, too quick...
: > When I posted (23 Oct 2005) aat's progressed sun was about
: > to enter Libra (29*56). This middle point of the zodiac that
: > was recently touched by the southern node is related to the
: > numbers 6 and 7.
:
: I get 7, but why 6?
Virgo is the 6th sign, Libra is the 7th sign. So the point just
between them (the middle of the zodiac) is related to 6 and 7.
How do you only get 7, but not 6 ?
The numbers 6 and 7 also relate to the 6th and 7th planets, i.e.
to Jupiter and Saturn.
: Multiplied they give 42, i.e. the number of
: > provinces in ancient Egypt and the number of questions and
: > judges in the Hall of Ma'at, between the world of the living
: > and the kingdom of the dead, which Liz Greene does relate to
: > Libra in her "The Astrology of Fate". I also mention that
: > piece of mythology in my original document (see my site).
: >
:
: And of course, Libra, long associated with the 7th house, has also been
: thought to symbolize the journey to the underworld, or land of the dead.
: Though from Hellenistic times onward the 8th house has been associated with
: death, in 10BC or so, the 7th house was deefnitely the domain of Hades.
: (more on this at www.geocities.com/astrologyhouses/twelvehouses.htm )
That's a cool link :)
: > A male friend of mine (Capricorn) is married to a woman who
: > says that she can talk to the dead. Although, in my view,
: > she does not really talk to the dead, but rather connects
: > to unconscious knowledge in the living, she fits very well
: > with the above: Sun in Libra, Pluto just at the beginning
: > of Libra, favorite color orange, angels, two dogs that I
: > cannot help to identify with Anubis and that other wolf or
: > jackal white counterpart with the unspeakable name who
: > guide the dead either way to rebirth or not.
: >
: > That's the nodes. Look like this was triggered by the
: > current transit of the nodes (I think Pete Phoenix, who
: > I guess was the one who essentially designed the chart,
: > started his usenet postings with a post about draconic
: > charts, i.e. charts with the northern node at the AC).
:
: Yes, that was Pete.
:
: >
: > Reminds me also of Douglas Adams (also sun in Pisces) and
: > his theories about how pens or socks disappear through
: > wormholes and reappear elsewhere and/or at another time.
:
: Oh, yeah, I definitely have at least a few of those wormholes at my house.
: ;-)
:
: >
: > And, of course, it was also Douglas Adams who made the
: > number 42 popular in our current times.
: >
:
: Hitchhiker's Guide, yes. And the mystery of death is one place many think
: the "Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything" actually lies.
On a different note, I remember that an ancient Roman once said that
on the question whether there is life after death, he would bet on
that there is life after death, because only in this case, would he
be able to collect the money...
: > See also section "Mythology in Life" in my main document
: > (Archive section at exactphilosophy.net, odyssey.zip,
: > document discoveries.pdf within), which another story
: > related to WW II and Britain, including the two sexless
: > beings who rescued Inanna from the underworld...
: >
:
: WW
: (More thoughts on the aat chart when I get the time.)
OK. Will be interesting. I have also been interested in looking at
the charts of usenet and its groups in terms of an "ancestry":
- usenet (autumn 1979, USA)
- alt.astrology (Leo, Sydney)
- alt.astrology.moderated (Scorpio, USA)
- alt.astrology.tropical (Virgo, USA)
Usenet has the northern node in Virgo.
Regarding cross-posts, I would like to keep cross-posting to both
groups, like a Libra between Virgo (aat) and Scorpio (aam). When
Libra decides, like e.g. Paris about which is the fairest of the
goddesses, war is usually the result (the Trojan war in the case
of Paris). So, I personally would prefer to keep things "gay" in
that sense (i.e. undecided) and to keep cross-posting so that
influences from both group charts can blend in.
Alain
I wrote:
: WW (do I know you ?????????????????) wrote:
First post tJuno conjunct nVenus in Gemini.
There is a very short story called Psychopolis by Ian McEwan that
describes the USA very well; the group of 4 diverse people (Cancer
sun; 4th sign; Mars) and the strange integrative ways of Uranus in
Gemini (the gun in the story; also Aquarius moon). Shows probably
in a somewhat exaggerated way in that californian story (Aquarius
sun in CA, I think, and the thin surface suggests Pisces, too).
Too schizophrenic for my personal taste, though. I preferred to see
the other half of personality in public, too. I guess integration
and also compromise are difficult for Americans in general (north
node in Leo, but foundation related to Uranus' discovery and with
moon in Aquarius), but even more so currently with Saturn in Leo.
First post tSaturn conjunct US north node.
: Regarding cross-posts, I would like to keep cross-posting to both
: groups, like a Libra between Virgo (aat) and Scorpio (aam). When
: Libra decides, like e.g. Paris about which is the fairest of the
: goddesses, war is usually the result (the Trojan war in the case
: of Paris). So, I personally would prefer to keep things "gay" in
: that sense (i.e. undecided) and to keep cross-posting so that
: influences from both group charts can blend in.
Sorry, looks like the "gay" thing is not really my bailiwick after
all; at least this one goes just to aam.
Although aat has very fascinating features, it is also a bit scary
and boundless, in addition of being a partial return to 9/11, i.e.
to the Saturn-Pluto opposition in Gemini-Sagittarius.
WW wrote:
: "archive" <archive@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: news:archive-A45F52.23400105072006@news.bluewin.ch...
: > WW (do I know you ?????????????????) wrote:
: >
:
: Of course you do. I am the Evil Sharyn. ;-) aka Wicked Witch or WW. It's a
: joke, since one poster at aamod in particular has brought my name up
: periodically, and said ugly things about me, even when I was not around to
: defend myself. I wanted to post in peace for a while, thus the sock)
:
: > : "archive" <archive@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: > : news:archive-6B8C69.08073605072006@news.bluewin.ch...
: > : > WW (do I know you???) wrote:
: > : > : > Still amazed at how easily and precisely analysis emerges at
: > : > : > alt.astrology.tropcial (where is Venus there?)...
: > : > :
: > : > : lol! It's been so long, I don't have the aat chart any more.
: > : > : Venus was in Leo, 9th house opp Uranus in AQU, IIRC.
: > : >
: > : > 18 September 2001, 14:12 Lisle IL (19:12 UTC)
: > : >
: > : Thanks, I looked it up in Google and was about to post it. ;-)
: >
: > Sorry, too quick...
:
: No problem, thanks again.
:
: >
: > : > When I posted (23 Oct 2005) aat's progressed sun was about
: > : > to enter Libra (29*56). This middle point of the zodiac that
: > : > was recently touched by the southern node is related to the
: > : > numbers 6 and 7.
: > :
: > : I get 7, but why 6?
: >
: > Virgo is the 6th sign, Libra is the 7th sign. So the point just
: > between them (the middle of the zodiac) is related to 6 and 7.
: >
:
: I see.
:
: > How do you only get 7, but not 6 ?
:
: Well, I was thinking a little differently than you were. You were talking
: about the aat sun progressing into Libra, which is generally related to the
: 7th house. The 7th house is associated with the opposition, and represents
: "the other," as opposed to the 1st house (or beginning of the zodiac) which
: represents "the self."
:
: >
: > The numbers 6 and 7 also relate to the 6th and 7th planets, i.e.
: > to Jupiter and Saturn.
: >
: > : Multiplied they give 42, i.e. the number of
: > : > provinces in ancient Egypt and the number of questions and
: > : > judges in the Hall of Ma'at, between the world of the living
: > : > and the kingdom of the dead, which Liz Greene does relate to
: > : > Libra in her "The Astrology of Fate". I also mention that
: > : > piece of mythology in my original document (see my site).
: > : >
: > :
: > : And of course, Libra, long associated with the 7th house, has also been
: > : thought to symbolize the journey to the underworld, or land of the dead.
: > : Though from Hellenistic times onward the 8th house has been associated
: > with
: > : death, in 10BC or so, the 7th house was deefnitely the domain of Hades.
: > : (more on this at www.geocities.com/astrologyhouses/twelvehouses.htm )
: >
: > That's a cool link :)
:
: Yeah. Deb's got a very cool site. Lots of information.
: >
: > : > A male friend of mine (Capricorn) is married to a woman who
: > : > says that she can talk to the dead. Although, in my view,
: > : > she does not really talk to the dead, but rather connects
: > : > to unconscious knowledge in the living, she fits very well
: > : > with the above: Sun in Libra, Pluto just at the beginning
: > : > of Libra, favorite color orange, angels, two dogs that I
: > : > cannot help to identify with Anubis and that other wolf or
: > : > jackal white counterpart with the unspeakable name who
: > : > guide the dead either way to rebirth or not.
: > : >
: > : > That's the nodes. Look like this was triggered by the
: > : > current transit of the nodes (I think Pete Phoenix, who
: > : > I guess was the one who essentially designed the chart,
: > : > started his usenet postings with a post about draconic
: > : > charts, i.e. charts with the northern node at the AC).
: > :
: > : Yes, that was Pete.
: > :
: > : >
: > : > Reminds me also of Douglas Adams (also sun in Pisces) and
: > : > his theories about how pens or socks disappear through
: > : > wormholes and reappear elsewhere and/or at another time.
: > :
: > : Oh, yeah, I definitely have at least a few of those wormholes at my
: > house.
: > : ;-)
: > :
: > : >
: > : > And, of course, it was also Douglas Adams who made the
: > : > number 42 popular in our current times.
: > : >
: > :
: > : Hitchhiker's Guide, yes. And the mystery of death is one place many
: > think
: > : the "Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything" actually
: > lies.
: >
: > On a different note, I remember that an ancient Roman once said that
: > on the question whether there is life after death, he would bet on
: > that there is life after death, because only in this case, would he
: > be able to collect the money...
:
: lol. Like believing in God, right? If there is no God, then it doesn't
: matter. But if there IS a God, not believing is big trouble! ;-)
: >
: > : > See also section "Mythology in Life" in my main document
: > : > (Archive section at exactphilosophy.net, odyssey.zip,
: > : > document discoveries.pdf within), which another story
: > : > related to WW II and Britain, including the two sexless
: > : > beings who rescued Inanna from the underworld...
: > : >
: > :
: > : WW
: > : (More thoughts on the aat chart when I get the time.)
: >
: > OK. Will be interesting. I have also been interested in looking at
: > the charts of usenet and its groups in terms of an "ancestry":
: >
: > - usenet (autumn 1979, USA)
: > - alt.astrology (Leo, Sydney)
: > - alt.astrology.moderated (Scorpio, USA)
: > - alt.astrology.tropical (Virgo, USA)
:
: Yeah. If you Google all that, you'll find a lot of discussion for all three
: groups. Very interesting, but it's been quite a while since I thought about
: all that. Still haven't had the time to even look at the aat progression,
: but will do it soon.
:
: >
: > Usenet has the northern node in Virgo.
: >
:
: I always felt that Usenet was a Virgo thing, don't know why, exactly.
:
: > Regarding cross-posts, I would like to keep cross-posting to both
: > groups, like a Libra between Virgo (aat) and Scorpio (aam). When
: > Libra decides, like e.g. Paris about which is the fairest of the
: > goddesses, war is usually the result (the Trojan war in the case
: > of Paris). So, I personally would prefer to keep things "gay" in
: > that sense (i.e. undecided) and to keep cross-posting so that
: > influences from both group charts can blend in.
:
: I understand.
:
: The problem is, when you crosspost to two moderated groups, it takes the
: choice away from one of the moderators. IOW, if one mod from one of the
: groups approves a post and that post is crossposted to the other group, the
: post will appear in the other group without the second mod getting a chance
: to decide.
:
: Besides, the "war" (and the reason for the creation of aat in the first
: place) is long over, and the two groups (very much like two adjacent signs)
: do not seem to mix well, or even be interested in mixing (with a few
: exceptions). In fact, I remember in the beginning crossposting for the very
: reasons you describe above, and some posters actually removed the crosspost
: and would only post to aamod.
:
: <shrug> It does not matter to me at this point, since I post wherever I
: like, have discussions that satisfy me and always have. But there are a
: couple of posters to aamod that are not welcome at aat because of the
: problems they tend to cause, and frankly, I should have listened to my
: friends on that point long ago. I insisted that it was a public group, that
: anyone should be able to post there, and looking back at it, that was a
: mistake. I hope my old pals will post here (I miss them and our discussions,
: and the group was created as a haven for all of us) but even if they never
: do, I don't mind just posting thoughts and information and talking to
: myself. ;-)
:
: So go ahead and post the same thing to both groups if you like. I, for one,
: always welcome discussions with you and will respond. Just please post them
: seperately, and that way, both mods have the option of deciding what posts
: (and posters) are appropriate for their respective groups. Thanks Alain. ;-)
:
: Sharyn
Thanks :) Something real, finally (real and royal are I guess the same words
essentially, and also Gral seems to be related to that; I remember that the
back flap of a book mentioned that the czech name "Kral" means simply King;
Saturn in Leo). My options for future posts remain essentially open, both
groups have their advantages and disadvantages (as has even alt.astrology).
Sorry if my other reply offended you; I guess it was a bit exaggerated, but
I was also a bit worried, because your WW posts appeared to be so different
from older posts. Difficult times for Cancers anyway, so difficult to hold
on to anything except immediate family with Uranus in Pisces.
I see the three Water signs in a circle. During the life of a Cancer, some
boundaries are crossed, for Scorpio there is a lot more of that, but in the
end it results in realizing that this process is not absolutely good, but
that things are more relative. Pisces, who's mythology goes back (as Liz
Greene pointed out) essentially to much older things than greek mythology,
like the goddess Atargatis and her son who was ritually eaten. Pisces do
not resist mixing with other influences much, but they do not give it much
weight either; privately they focus on the few things that are really
close and dear to them. That prepares the complex unconscious background
plus a small family with which Cancer typically starts.
Thanks again,
Alain
WW wrote:
: [...]
: >> Virgo is the 6th sign, Libra is the 7th sign. So the point just
: >> between them (the middle of the zodiac) is related to 6 and 7.
: >>
: >
: > I see.
: >
: >> How do you only get 7, but not 6 ?
: >
: > Well, I was thinking a little differently than you were. You were talking
: > about the aat sun progressing into Libra, which is generally related to
: > the 7th house. The 7th house is associated with the opposition, and
: > represents "the other," as opposed to the 1st house (or beginning of the
: > zodiac) which represents "the self."
: >> Sharyn
: >
:
: But that doesn't explain why not the 6th, does it? Sorry. Probably because
: the natal Sun of the group is in the 10th house, and though it has moved
: from the 6th to the 7th *sign* by progression, it is still in the tenth
: house. It has moved into the sign ruling the MC (status), the Moon (public)
: and Mercury (communication). I think that, coupled with the progressed ASC
: at 29SAG21 (about to move into Capricorn), puts me more in mind of the
: angles of this chart. And that is 1-4-7-10. Whatever the sign involved, the
: angles are where the action happens, and so cardinal in nature.
:
: So none of that really brought the 6th house to my mind. The pathways your
: mind takes are quite different than my own, which is of course related to
: what each of us has learned about astrology and where we learned it, to the
: differences in our respective knowledge of other subjects and in what
: directions our studies are taking us now. I think that's why I've always
: been interested in talking with you, even if I don't always get what you're
: saying.
:
: If you say "6" in an astrological discussion, and I think "chart placement".
: I don't even necessarily think Mercury just because Virgo is the 6th sign (I
: am still uncomfortable with the 6th house=Virgo=Mercury thing, due to
: studies of horary and traditional astrology). I see the Sunset just past,
: the quiet enchantment of the twilight hours, the primeval fear of the coming
: darkness that all diurnal creatures share, as well as the place often
: involved with distress and anxiety and illness in horary and event charts.
: What I don't see is a cardinal place, and this whole subject fairly shouts
: it.
Maybe it's because I have an almost stationary Mercury (and also Saturn,
both at transitions between signs). For me from any point on the zodiac
you can in principle go either way, at sunset forward into the night or
back into day, or just stay there...
: You seem (to me) to think like a mathemetician and a mythologist rolled into
: one, and you are looking for patterns and corelations coming from that point
: of view. Sometimes, your observations don't seem to agree with the tenets of
: astrology; but that doesn't mean they are never legitimately related, just
: that they require thought and an open mind. Seemingly disparate connections
: can lead to profound insights, so I try not to let my mind become too
: calcified. ;-)
I am a physicist! I guess the qualification mathematician and mythologist
defines quite well what a researcher of fundamental laws of nature is:
Somebody who uses logic (math) as a tool to understand the mysteries of life.
It is probably safe to say that all physicist who made major discoveries in
physics had also philosophical interests into the deeper and broader issues
of life and where not limited to pure logic and technology, unlike (after
passages of Uranus and Neptune through Aquarius) many scientists are today.
: BTW, your observation about the nodal transit of the place of the
: progressed Sun when you actually sent the post is very astute. And there is
: more that is interesting about the timing of both. From the headers of your
: post (this would be the exact time the STUMP sergver released the message in
: Lisle, Ill.):
:
: Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:40:17 -0500
:
: In that chart, in addition to the south node's connection to the pr Sun when
: you sent the message at 29VIR15, The Moon is at 15LIB37 (aat Moon at
: 15LIB10), the ASC at 1CAP (conjunct the aat south node AND the aat
: progressed ASC).
Noticed that Saturn (<=> time) returned to almost the same spot that it was
at when I posted in October 2005 (10*29 Leo vs. 10*33 Leo) ?
: I suppose I dealt with the moderation queue and started posting here again
: because my chart is tied in tight to this one, and I sensed it was time for
: movement. My own natal ascendant happens to be conjunct the aat Moon, too,
: and my MC conjunct aat's Jupiter 7th, so of course I would be the one to
: bring the group into some kind of discussion again
:
: What do you think, as reflected in your own chart, moved you to send that
: post in the first place?
There were some maybe obvious triggers like nSun opp tNeptune or tMercury
opp tMars on my lunar nodal axis, and more (and now tNodes on nSaturn and
tLilith on my natal Uranus/Pluto in Viro). But, maybe the best answer is
again Juno ? (natal 26*38 Gemini, when posted at 22*26 Gemini)
WW wrote:
: I dunno about Juno...I know a lot of folks use hypotheticals and asteroids
: like planets, but honestly, Juno doesn't mean much to me because it really
: never seems to figure significantly in any of my studies. And isn't Juno
: supposed to be related to the "wife" or something?
As I mentioned very tersely in the only post in this thread that
went only too aam, transiting Juno in the chart of your first
usenet post as WW / ms.maleficent was conjunct your natal Venus
in Gemini. Date/Time of your first post as WW (according to Google):
Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:35:38 -0800
It has Juno at 13*52 Gemini, while in your birth chart (again
according to Google), Venus is at 15*42 Gemini. I guess the
fact that there are two Alamedas in CA underlines a bit the
Gemini theme. Juno is the Roman equivalent of Hera, the wife
of Zeus/Jupiter. The month June is named after her, which
links her to both Gemini (most of June) and Cancer (Cancer
starts at the summer solistice at around 21 June).
Currently Venus is in Gemini, too; now at 16*31 Gemini.
Here is a link to a post by Pete from autumn 2004 titled
"Juno in Synastry":
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/browse_thread/thread/16b1133e1e93f698/0b8a0336c4cf5368
Here is my data (again):
7 August 1966 at 04:12 AM in Zurich, Switzerland (03:12 AM UTC)
That was early in the morning of a sunday or, alternatively
near end of a saturday party night in the "summer of love".
I probably won't have time to post again until next weekend...
Alain
PS: You have mean black moon Lilith (or equivalently the mean
lunar apogee) at 18*59 Leo, with tMars at about 20 Leo and
tJuno at about 15 Leo. Lilith is, in my experience, the object
that shows very often as clearly as no other in transit.
And, last but certainly not least, you have the northern lunar
node in Leo. For me one way to look at the nodes, is to see
them as the synthesis of all other factors in a chart.
Not replying to particular statements, just a maybe more
general remark regarding jewish religion and anti-semitism.
Unlike christian and muslim religions, which emerged during
the age of Pisces, jewish religions is tied to the age of
Aries (Abraham left the city of Ur around the start of the
age of Aries).
Jewish religion and culture thus carry the signature of
Aries with all its relative advantages and disadvantages,
that are judged differently by other cultures / religions.
In the age of Aquarius, secular states will likely be how
states will be, although likely it will still a few more
centuries until that is generally so. Law and order (since
Aquarius is ruled by Saturn and/or Uranus) will be above
belief in general, as far as practical questions of living
together will be concerned, while religion will likely be
still important, but rather a personal matter.
The "child" Aries will likely be restricted and tamed a bit
by the "old man" Aquarius (and Aquarius will detach from the
"old,woman" Pisces, too), although the sextile between the
two signs Aries and Aquarius will certainly also be fruitful,
as for example the strong prominence of jewish discoverers
of new science and technology shows.
Already during the age of Taurus did the farmers ("Moslems")
and the shepherds ("Jews") had troubles to live together,
but at least then in mythology the harmony of Venus allowed
them to settle their disputes peacefully.
So, I guess these two will keep quarreling for many thousand
years to come, only maybe it will be possible to do so in
the future without actually killing people during that. There
are many ways to quarrel a lot, without killing anybody, as
shows, for example, politics in the USA (Mars/Uranus Gemini)
or also this thread...
For a deeper look, see section about the age of Aquarius in
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip (in the file
discoveries.pdf inside that ZIP archive).
r.nyroc.rr.com> <Jyirg.4148$PE1.1651@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> <nRqrg.46064$W97.48@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <1152332662.166489.224600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
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: What is Frank Zappa's birthday? ;-)
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/DtUU25jS3NT9.htm
Shows the chart and gives the following birth data (no
source indicated):
December 21, 1940 at 6:22 AM in Baltimore Corner, MD (USA)
: http://tinyurl.com/ppxng
Cool :)
Mercury just stationed on his natal Cheiron in the first
degree of Leo.
Seldom to see an American not move much when confronted
with emotional arguments and staying factual. Some likely
factors:
- Jupiter/Saturn and especially Uranus in Taurus (Uranus
is on the planetary nodes of Mercury and Mars)
- Sun/Mercury in Sagittarius (Mercury conjunct the AC and
on the planetary nodes of Venus and Uranus; sun close to
entry into Capricorn)
- Northern lunar node conjunct MC in Libra
- Venus in early Sagittarius
- Mars in Scorpio (opposite Uranus)
- Lilith (BML) in Aries
- Moon conjunct Neptune in Virgo (he seemed often to look
inward when attacked and smiled)
- ...
news.bluewin.ch>
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I wrote (in reply to Dee; sorry technically the reply was to
the wrong post in the thread's tree structure; retro Merc):
: : What is Frank Zappa's birthday? ;-)
:
: http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/DtUU25jS3NT9.htm
:
: Shows the chart and gives the following birth data (no
: source indicated):
:
: December 21, 1940 at 6:22 AM in Baltimore Corner, MD (USA)
:
: : http://tinyurl.com/ppxng
:
: Cool :)
:
: Mercury just stationed on his natal Cheiron in the first
: degree of Leo.
:
: Seldom to see an American not move much when confronted
: with emotional arguments and staying factual. Some likely
: factors:
:
: - Jupiter/Saturn and especially Uranus in Taurus (Uranus
: is on the planetary nodes of Mercury and Mars)
: - Sun/Mercury in Sagittarius (Mercury conjunct the AC and
: on the planetary nodes of Venus and Uranus; sun close to
: entry into Capricorn)
: - Northern lunar node conjunct MC in Libra
: - Venus in early Sagittarius
: - Mars in Scorpio (opposite Uranus)
: - Lilith (BML) in Aries
: - Moon conjunct Neptune in Virgo (he seemed often to look
: inward when attacked and smiled)
: - ...
I hope it is permitted to present a brief zappaesque statement
with regard to religion and religious conflicts:
BEGIN ZAPPAESQUE ZONE
From a scientific point of view, there is no reason at all why
religion A should be more true than religions B, C, D, etc.
From an astrological point of view, the symbolism of religions
is strongly colored by the time and place they emerged.
Thus only what is common to most religions is of a potentially
universal value.
Religious wars are thus essentially the equivalent of a person
defending his or her personal standpoint with physical force.
END ZAPPAESQUE ZONE
Even though religion can certainly be a positive thing relative
to specific persons and/or a specific time, fundamentally all
specific religions are biased and thus not all their beliefs can
be true (since different religions have different views). One
should at least be aware of this, which does not mean that one
should necessarily admit so in public, but I believe (pun!!!)
a little moderation should still be appropriate before acting
based upon something that has no absolute truth.
Pluto soon into Capricorn...
Zidane
Zinedine "Zizou" Zidane is probably the most talented football
(soccer) player of this time. Here is his birth chart:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/3Ta2j5wdNMDW.htm [english]
http://www.astrotheme.fr/portraits/3Ta2j5wdNMDW.htm [french]
Last evening, during the final of the World Championship between
France and Italy, the following happened:
During an interuption of the play, an italian player, while standing
behind Zidane, pinched Zidane's left nipple with his left hand. It
looked like they then exchanged a few words, both started to run
forward slowly, Zidane in front of the italian player, then Zidane
looked back and turned around and suddenly hit the italian player
on the chest with his head, very likely he hit precisely the left
nipple with his head.
Publicly, nobody apparently noticed the first part of this story;
only the second part where Zidane hit the italian player (Mercury
is currently retrograde and also so in France's birth chart).
Zidane has the sun in Cancer (chest, nipples). He also has Lilith
and the moon in Scorpio (nipple-Cancer-moon-Lilith), so in that
respect his reaction can be seen as "an eye for an eye" scorpionic
revenge. But he took "revenge" with his head, the part of the body
associated with Aries, where he has only one planet: Cheiron.
Sexual harrassment is, in my view (and I guess also in Zidane's)
not judged as it should be in soccer. If it was common practice to
give a red card for sexual harassement, Zidane would not have had
to react as he did and would not himself have gotten a red card.
France lost the championship to Italy, but in my view Zidane did
the right thing, and I think it will also come out publicly that
way in the end...
--
Some other astrological bits maybe worth mentioning:
- Lilith in Virgo, a strong dislike of unfairness
- Jupiter in Scorpio direct again since a few days
- Zidane's sun-Pluto square
- tNeptune square Zidane's moon in Scorpio
- Zidane's Cheiron conjunct my moon in Aries
- Zidane's Saturn and Venus in Gemini
- Zidane's Jupiter in Capricorn
- AC of start of final game conjunct Frank Zappa's sun
(at the end of Sagittarius)
- ...
'Thenie wrote:
: Association does not equal correlation.
:
: That Libra occurs in the chart of a homosexual does not mean Libra placement
: relates to the orientation at all.
:
: Milk figures predominantly in the childhood of homosexuals; does that mean
: milk is related to the expression of the orientation? Is milk a 'gateway
: beverage' to homosexual activity?
Well, probably a bit, yes.
The theme of a strong connection to the mother appears to be prominent
with regard to (at least male) homosexuality, although that alone does
certainly not imply it. What better image to express a strong link to
the mother (or maybe not the actual mother, but the theme in general),
than milk, the nourishing fluid that comes out of the mother's breasts.
As astonishing as it may sound, association, even though it may not the
same as correlation, is a very good guide to finding correlations. I am
confident this statement is provable in a scientific way, in principle.
: And frankly, I just don't see Libra as a martial or sexual sign; that
: 'honor' goes to its polar opposite, Aries. Where Mars is in its dignity
: (Mars is in its detriment in Libra, where it is least comfortable and finds
: greatest difficulty expressing itself).
Sex (except maybe in the definition of Bill Clinton) requires always
two people, typically a Mars and a Venus. If it is two Mars' or two
Venus' who have sex, there is more balance, but also a quincunx, since
the ruled signs (Aries-Scorpio, Taurus-Libra) are at a quincunx to
each other. The aspects of heterosexual sex, Venus-Mars, in turn, are
opposition and semi-sextile.
Beep wrote:
: I thought it was something that was said, not nipple-tweaking:
: http://sport.scotsman.com/football_worldcup.cfm?id=1004132006
Today Zidane's agent apparently announced that Zidane will
explain what happened in a few days. Stay tuned, and maybe
don't jump to conclusions too quickly, at least as long as
Mercury remains retrograde... :)
: I was pleased Italy won for my Italian relatives :) but now you have
: me wondering!
I don't know - there is so much luck involved in winning a
soccer match that I am not at all sure that Italy would not
still have won if Zidane had remained in the match until
the end. I am not much of a soccer fan, but I found this
last match of the tournament very good and interesting. The
tournament is certainly the biggest sports event except the
Olympics. The fact that it is played with 11 players on each
side, makes it aquarian (11th sign) and relates it also to
Gemini, since the number 11 ressembles the glyph for Gemini.
The italian player, Marco Materazzi, was born 19 August 1973.
Venus in the middle of the zodiac (cf. exactphilosophy thread)
at the end of Virgo (or more likely) in early Libra; conjunct
Pluto at about 2 degrees Libra; opposite Mars at the start of
the zodiac in early Aries, i.e. on the axis of the transiting
lunar nodes; Mean Black Moon Lilith in the first degree of
Capricorn, like the AC of the match (and Zappa's sun); Cheiron
also in Aries (20 degrees); Mercury at about 11 Leo, closely
conjunct tSaturn; sun at 26 Leo, conjunct tMars (21 Leo) and
especially tOrcus (26 Leo), a Roman name for the underworld.
Venus conjunct Pluto in an Air sign...
Stay tuned!
'Thenie wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" wrote...
> > 'Thenie wrote:
> >
> > : Association does not equal correlation.
> > :
> > : That Libra occurs in the chart of a homosexual does not mean Libra
> placement
> > : relates to the orientation at all.
> > :
> > : Milk figures predominantly in the childhood of homosexuals; does that
> mean
> > : milk is related to the expression of the orientation? Is milk a
> 'gateway
> > : beverage' to homosexual activity?
> >
> > Well, probably a bit, yes.
> >
> > The theme of a strong connection to the mother appears to be prominent
> > with regard to (at least male) homosexuality, although that alone does
> > certainly not imply it. What better image to express a strong link to
> > the mother (or maybe not the actual mother, but the theme in general),
> > than milk, the nourishing fluid that comes out of the mother's breasts.
> >
> > As astonishing as it may sound, association, even though it may not the
> > same as correlation, is a very good guide to finding correlations. I am
> > confident this statement is provable in a scientific way, in principle.
>
> That might be arguable in terms of breastmilk, where the infant or small
> child experiences milk and intimacy as part and parcel or the same thing,
> followed closely by hunger being met, but the experience of milk that is
> predominant in US society is >cow's milk< from a >carton< delivered at the
> >table<. As such, milk, as an actual as well as emotional/psychological
> experience is as just another foodstuff (and we aren't even taking into
> consideration those who are lactose intolerant).
>
> While food in general is a Cancerian item, it just isn't the same as
> breastfeeding, for either party involved, so that kind of undercuts your
> argument. Add to that fact that cow's milk or formula delivery to the
> infant is often taken on by those other than mom (siter, babysitter,
> grandmother, aunt, female friend) and even by males (dad, brother, uncle,
> male babysitters, and the rare male friend). In most families the majority
> of the milk ingested by babies is delivered by family members other than
> mom, who is busy handling other family chores or working.
>
> As to the closeness to mother that is expressed, at least by stereotype, by
> homosexuals, again I don't think the link to mom makes the boy gay, but the
> tendency for mom to be more accepting (and fear of being rejected once dad
> finds out) and the commonality of sensitive or observant natures that is
> what strengthens the mother-child bond, all post recognizing oneself as
> being 'different' than dad and already having experiencing dad censuring and
> criticising 'gay-ish' or 'unseemly' behavior.
>
> One could take as easily any other item prominant in childhood and point to
> it as being just as 'gateway' or significant or causitive as milk, just that
> I happened on the item milk. But please, don't try to make a case for an
> item that most kids don't experience as a human mother (much less one's own
> mom) being the producer of the substance. More often it is a cherished
> childhood favorite food that is the emotional/psychological link to mom,
> such as jello as a sickbed comfort food or how she cut the crusts off the
> PB&J or a particular from-scratch main course. I just can't see emotional
> ties coming from the cold carton of milk that the fat lunchlady in the
> hairnet plops on the lunchroom tray at school (since we're going with
> stereotypes).
>
> > : And frankly, I just don't see Libra as a martial or sexual sign; that
> > : 'honor' goes to its polar opposite, Aries. Where Mars is in its dignity
> > : (Mars is in its detriment in Libra, where it is least comfortable and
> finds
> > : greatest difficulty expressing itself).
> >
> > Sex (except maybe in the definition of Bill Clinton) requires always
> > two people, typically a Mars and a Venus. If it is two Mars' or two
> > Venus' who have sex, there is more balance, but also a quincunx, since
> > the ruled signs (Aries-Scorpio, Taurus-Libra) are at a quincunx to
> > each other. The aspects of heterosexual sex, Venus-Mars, in turn, are
> > opposition and semi-sextile.
>
> I disagree here, too. Sex requires two people, yes, but sex is entirely a
> Marsian activity.
>
> Venus deals with issues of love, of experiencing the receiving of affection
> and being affected by it; love doesn't require the sex act. Venus's sign is
> the handmirror, reflection and attention. Venus is about beauty and
> attracting attention. Love is fulfilled when the lover expresses being
> caught by the beloved's charm and appreciated qualities. Love is about
> being held by attraction to another, about receiving that attention, and how
> we are >affected< and stirred emotionally by another.
>
> Mars is about satisfying hunger, about what one desires. Sex is about
> satisfaction, about scratching an itch, about satisfying a drive for a
> moment. Sex works perfectly well without love being in the mix (ever hear
> of 'f*ck buddies'? (One night stands?) Surely you've heard about how
> 'angry sex' is some of the best sex? Or that sex in a marriage after the
> love has gone is some of the best?
>
> Mars is about passion, and sex is best in the throes of passion. This is
> the thrill of the body. Love is about the thrill of the heart, about peace
> being placed there; peace is the start of love. Peace is the end of sex;
> until the next go-round.
>
> A balanced physical relationship should address and give room to both Mars
> >and< Venus, but there are plenty of healthy (and unhealthy) relationships
> that are based on just Mars or just Venus, with the left out planet finding
> expression elsewhere in some other area of life.
>
> Venus rules Taurus and Libra.
>
> Taurus, an Earth sign, likes things settled (at peace, untroubled) in the
> real world, in the material existence; Taurus handles this materially in
> his/her life, by materially controlling others, seeing such as a means to
> peace in one's life. Taurus sets signs of affection in quality and
> beautiful things of intrinsic value, so gives and expects such things as
> tokens of love. No gifts, no sense of being valued or appreciated. The way
> you know a Taurean has been moved emotionally, beyond practicality, is when
> s/he becomes generous.
>
> Libra, an Air sign, likes things settled (at peace, untroubled) in the real
> world, in the intellectual existence; Libra handles this intellectually in
> his/her life, by sharing knowledge of idealistic beauty, seeing such as a
> means to peace in one's life. Libra sets signs of affection in quality and
> beautiful things of intellectual stimulation and so gives and expects the
> sharing of such things as tokens of love. No gifts, no sense of being
> valued or appreciated. The way you know a Libran has been moved
> emotionally, beyond impartiality, is when s/he shares subjective joy in art,
> literature, music, and other items and activities of beauty.
>
> These things that Taurus and Libra look for are about the transcendent
> properties of love, how love moves us beyond self; Venus is about moving
> beyond self. Love is about being more concerned with another than oneself.
> Satisfaction in love is becoming so at peace that 'self ' is lost as an
> issue and the other becomes more important. One speaks of 'losing one's
> self in another'. Personal love, universal love, is all about loss of self.
> That's why Venus is exalted in Pisces, the sign that has the most trouble
> maintaining a sense of self, who keeps blurring that boundary between self
> and others.
>
> Mars is ALL about self. Mars is ego and what the ego wants.
>
> Mars rules Aries and rules or co-rules Scorpio.
>
> Scorpio, a Water sign, is attracted by excitement (passion, stirred up) in
> the real world, in the emotional existence; Scorpio handles this emotionally
> in his/her life, by emotionally controlling others, seeing such as a means
> to progress in one's life. Scorpio sets signs of attraction in terms of
> passion and physical affection, so gives and expects such displays as
> expressions of interest. No displays, no sense of being attracted or
> interested. The way you know a Scorpio has become passionately attracted,
> beyond thoughts of reputation, is when s/he becomes demonstrative. Then
> demanding. Then possibly abusive. It's the frustration factor; Mars
> doesn't like being frustrated, and fixed energy can fuel this into a
> long-term grudge.
>
> Aries, a Fire sign, attracted by excitement (passion, stirred up) in the
> real world, in the personal existence; Aries handles this personally in
> his/her life, by personally demonstrating ability (impressing others),
> seeing such as a means to progress in one's life. Aries sets signs of
> attraction in terms of passion and physical affection, so performs such
> displays (often public; the bigger the audience, the better) as expressions
> of interest. No displays, no sense of being attracted or interested. The
> way you know an Arien has become passionately attracted, beyond thoughts of
> reputation, is when s/he becomes demonstrative. Then demanding. Then
> possibly abusive. It's the frustration factor; Mars doesn't like being
> frustrated, and cardinal energy can fuel this into a short-term grudge.
>
> Funny that Venus and Mars both rule one cardinal planet (Libra/Aries) and
> one fixed sign (Taurus/Scorpio), and that each is a polarity and so an
> inverse of the other. And I say part of that is because Venus is an inverse
> of Mars and vice versa, along the polarity of ego or self.
>
> Venus is happy to be Mars's mirror, to reflect his glory back to his hungry
> ego. It isn't the sex, but the stability of his need that she fits to so
> perfectly that makes this relationship agreeable to Venus; it isn't the
> love, but the reliability of the bootycall (and the opportunity to compete
> and win against Venus's husband) that makes this 'relationship' agreeable to
> Mars. Plus Venus probably touched Mars's heart and he experienced a
> transcendence that he never knew anywhere else before; Mars probably
> engendered a hunger in Venus she never knew before.
>
> Venus gives to express how Venus has been affected; Mars takes in order to
> feed/satisfy Mars's need. Love gives with no thought of getting something
> in return; love gives unconditionally as witness to the fact of being moved,
> of being touched at the heart. Desire takes with no thought of giving in
> return unless so giving will increase or precipitate getting; desire is
> transactional when necessary, but prefers to just get.
>
> I really don't see Venus as a 'sexual' sign, but of being willing to give in
> any area of life where there is need to assuage. And the satisfaction is in
> the giving, not the getting. Mars is the one that worries over getting.
>
> -'Thenie
Does that fit with the Age of Taurus ?
Like in "The Marriage of Inanna and Dumuzi",
http://www.reweaving.org/inanna2.html
? :)
'Thenie wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" wrote...
> > 'Thenie wrote:
> >
> > : Association does not equal correlation.
> > :
> > : That Libra occurs in the chart of a homosexual does not mean Libra
> placement
> > : relates to the orientation at all.
> > :
> > : Milk figures predominantly in the childhood of homosexuals; does that
> mean
> > : milk is related to the expression of the orientation? Is milk a
> 'gateway
> > : beverage' to homosexual activity?
> >
> > Well, probably a bit, yes.
> >
> > The theme of a strong connection to the mother appears to be prominent
> > with regard to (at least male) homosexuality, although that alone does
> > certainly not imply it. What better image to express a strong link to
> > the mother (or maybe not the actual mother, but the theme in general),
> > than milk, the nourishing fluid that comes out of the mother's breasts.
> >
> > As astonishing as it may sound, association, even though it may not the
> > same as correlation, is a very good guide to finding correlations. I am
> > confident this statement is provable in a scientific way, in principle.
>
> That might be arguable in terms of breastmilk, where the infant or small
> child experiences milk and intimacy as part and parcel or the same thing,
> followed closely by hunger being met, but the experience of milk that is
> predominant in US society is >cow's milk< from a >carton< delivered at the
> >table<. As such, milk, as an actual as well as emotional/psychological
> experience is as just another foodstuff (and we aren't even taking into
> consideration those who are lactose intolerant).
>
> While food in general is a Cancerian item, it just isn't the same as
> breastfeeding, for either party involved, so that kind of undercuts your
> argument. Add to that fact that cow's milk or formula delivery to the
> infant is often taken on by those other than mom (siter, babysitter,
> grandmother, aunt, female friend) and even by males (dad, brother, uncle,
> male babysitters, and the rare male friend). In most families the majority
> of the milk ingested by babies is delivered by family members other than
> mom, who is busy handling other family chores or working.
>
> As to the closeness to mother that is expressed, at least by stereotype, by
> homosexuals, again I don't think the link to mom makes the boy gay, but the
> tendency for mom to be more accepting (and fear of being rejected once dad
> finds out) and the commonality of sensitive or observant natures that is
> what strengthens the mother-child bond, all post recognizing oneself as
> being 'different' than dad and already having experiencing dad censuring and
> criticising 'gay-ish' or 'unseemly' behavior.
>
> One could take as easily any other item prominant in childhood and point to
> it as being just as 'gateway' or significant or causitive as milk, just that
> I happened on the item milk. But please, don't try to make a case for an
> item that most kids don't experience as a human mother (much less one's own
> mom) being the producer of the substance. More often it is a cherished
> childhood favorite food that is the emotional/psychological link to mom,
> such as jello as a sickbed comfort food or how she cut the crusts off the
> PB&J or a particular from-scratch main course. I just can't see emotional
> ties coming from the cold carton of milk that the fat lunchlady in the
> hairnet plops on the lunchroom tray at school (since we're going with
> stereotypes).
>
> > : And frankly, I just don't see Libra as a martial or sexual sign; that
> > : 'honor' goes to its polar opposite, Aries. Where Mars is in its dignity
> > : (Mars is in its detriment in Libra, where it is least comfortable and
> finds
> > : greatest difficulty expressing itself).
> >
> > Sex (except maybe in the definition of Bill Clinton) requires always
> > two people, typically a Mars and a Venus. If it is two Mars' or two
> > Venus' who have sex, there is more balance, but also a quincunx, since
> > the ruled signs (Aries-Scorpio, Taurus-Libra) are at a quincunx to
> > each other. The aspects of heterosexual sex, Venus-Mars, in turn, are
> > opposition and semi-sextile.
>
> I disagree here, too. Sex requires two people, yes, but sex is entirely a
> Marsian activity.
>
> Venus deals with issues of love, of experiencing the receiving of affection
> and being affected by it; love doesn't require the sex act. Venus's sign is
> the handmirror, reflection and attention. Venus is about beauty and
> attracting attention. Love is fulfilled when the lover expresses being
> caught by the beloved's charm and appreciated qualities. Love is about
> being held by attraction to another, about receiving that attention, and how
> we are >affected< and stirred emotionally by another.
>
> Mars is about satisfying hunger, about what one desires. Sex is about
> satisfaction, about scratching an itch, about satisfying a drive for a
> moment. Sex works perfectly well without love being in the mix (ever hear
> of 'f*ck buddies'? (One night stands?) Surely you've heard about how
> 'angry sex' is some of the best sex? Or that sex in a marriage after the
> love has gone is some of the best?
>
> Mars is about passion, and sex is best in the throes of passion. This is
> the thrill of the body. Love is about the thrill of the heart, about peace
> being placed there; peace is the start of love. Peace is the end of sex;
> until the next go-round.
>
> A balanced physical relationship should address and give room to both Mars
> >and< Venus, but there are plenty of healthy (and unhealthy) relationships
> that are based on just Mars or just Venus, with the left out planet finding
> expression elsewhere in some other area of life.
>
> Venus rules Taurus and Libra.
>
> Taurus, an Earth sign, likes things settled (at peace, untroubled) in the
> real world, in the material existence; Taurus handles this materially in
> his/her life, by materially controlling others, seeing such as a means to
> peace in one's life. Taurus sets signs of affection in quality and
> beautiful things of intrinsic value, so gives and expects such things as
> tokens of love. No gifts, no sense of being valued or appreciated. The way
> you know a Taurean has been moved emotionally, beyond practicality, is when
> s/he becomes generous.
>
> Libra, an Air sign, likes things settled (at peace, untroubled) in the real
> world, in the intellectual existence; Libra handles this intellectually in
> his/her life, by sharing knowledge of idealistic beauty, seeing such as a
> means to peace in one's life. Libra sets signs of affection in quality and
> beautiful things of intellectual stimulation and so gives and expects the
> sharing of such things as tokens of love. No gifts, no sense of being
> valued or appreciated. The way you know a Libran has been moved
> emotionally, beyond impartiality, is when s/he shares subjective joy in art,
> literature, music, and other items and activities of beauty.
>
> These things that Taurus and Libra look for are about the transcendent
> properties of love, how love moves us beyond self; Venus is about moving
> beyond self. Love is about being more concerned with another than oneself.
> Satisfaction in love is becoming so at peace that 'self ' is lost as an
> issue and the other becomes more important. One speaks of 'losing one's
> self in another'. Personal love, universal love, is all about loss of self.
> That's why Venus is exalted in Pisces, the sign that has the most trouble
> maintaining a sense of self, who keeps blurring that boundary between self
> and others.
>
> Mars is ALL about self. Mars is ego and what the ego wants.
>
> Mars rules Aries and rules or co-rules Scorpio.
>
> Scorpio, a Water sign, is attracted by excitement (passion, stirred up) in
> the real world, in the emotional existence; Scorpio handles this emotionally
> in his/her life, by emotionally controlling others, seeing such as a means
> to progress in one's life. Scorpio sets signs of attraction in terms of
> passion and physical affection, so gives and expects such displays as
> expressions of interest. No displays, no sense of being attracted or
> interested. The way you know a Scorpio has become passionately attracted,
> beyond thoughts of reputation, is when s/he becomes demonstrative. Then
> demanding. Then possibly abusive. It's the frustration factor; Mars
> doesn't like being frustrated, and fixed energy can fuel this into a
> long-term grudge.
>
> Aries, a Fire sign, attracted by excitement (passion, stirred up) in the
> real world, in the personal existence; Aries handles this personally in
> his/her life, by personally demonstrating ability (impressing others),
> seeing such as a means to progress in one's life. Aries sets signs of
> attraction in terms of passion and physical affection, so performs such
> displays (often public; the bigger the audience, the better) as expressions
> of interest. No displays, no sense of being attracted or interested. The
> way you know an Arien has become passionately attracted, beyond thoughts of
> reputation, is when s/he becomes demonstrative. Then demanding. Then
> possibly abusive. It's the frustration factor; Mars doesn't like being
> frustrated, and cardinal energy can fuel this into a short-term grudge.
>
> Funny that Venus and Mars both rule one cardinal planet (Libra/Aries) and
> one fixed sign (Taurus/Scorpio), and that each is a polarity and so an
> inverse of the other. And I say part of that is because Venus is an inverse
> of Mars and vice versa, along the polarity of ego or self.
>
> Venus is happy to be Mars's mirror, to reflect his glory back to his hungry
> ego. It isn't the sex, but the stability of his need that she fits to so
> perfectly that makes this relationship agreeable to Venus; it isn't the
> love, but the reliability of the bootycall (and the opportunity to compete
> and win against Venus's husband) that makes this 'relationship' agreeable to
> Mars. Plus Venus probably touched Mars's heart and he experienced a
> transcendence that he never knew anywhere else before; Mars probably
> engendered a hunger in Venus she never knew before.
>
> Venus gives to express how Venus has been affected; Mars takes in order to
> feed/satisfy Mars's need. Love gives with no thought of getting something
> in return; love gives unconditionally as witness to the fact of being moved,
> of being touched at the heart. Desire takes with no thought of giving in
> return unless so giving will increase or precipitate getting; desire is
> transactional when necessary, but prefers to just get.
>
> I really don't see Venus as a 'sexual' sign, but of being willing to give in
> any area of life where there is need to assuage. And the satisfaction is in
> the giving, not the getting. Mars is the one that worries over getting.
>
> -'Thenie
What about Freud ?
'Thenie wrote:
> "Alain Stalder" wrote...
> > 'Thenie wrote:
> >
> > : Association does not equal correlation.
> > :
> > : That Libra occurs in the chart of a homosexual does not mean Libra
> placement
> > : relates to the orientation at all.
> > :
> > : Milk figures predominantly in the childhood of homosexuals; does that
> mean
> > : milk is related to the expression of the orientation? Is milk a
> 'gateway
> > : beverage' to homosexual activity?
> >
> > Well, probably a bit, yes.
> >
> > The theme of a strong connection to the mother appears to be prominent
> > with regard to (at least male) homosexuality, although that alone does
> > certainly not imply it. What better image to express a strong link to
> > the mother (or maybe not the actual mother, but the theme in general),
> > than milk, the nourishing fluid that comes out of the mother's breasts.
> >
> > As astonishing as it may sound, association, even though it may not the
> > same as correlation, is a very good guide to finding correlations. I am
> > confident this statement is provable in a scientific way, in principle.
>
> That might be arguable in terms of breastmilk, where the infant or small
> child experiences milk and intimacy as part and parcel or the same thing,
> followed closely by hunger being met, but the experience of milk that is
> predominant in US society is >cow's milk< from a >carton< delivered at the
> >table<. As such, milk, as an actual as well as emotional/psychological
> experience is as just another foodstuff (and we aren't even taking into
> consideration those who are lactose intolerant).
>
> While food in general is a Cancerian item, it just isn't the same as
> breastfeeding, for either party involved, so that kind of undercuts your
> argument. Add to that fact that cow's milk or formula delivery to the
> infant is often taken on by those other than mom (siter, babysitter,
> grandmother, aunt, female friend) and even by males (dad, brother, uncle,
> male babysitters, and the rare male friend). In most families the majority
> of the milk ingested by babies is delivered by family members other than
> mom, who is busy handling other family chores or working.
>
> As to the closeness to mother that is expressed, at least by stereotype, by
> homosexuals, again I don't think the link to mom makes the boy gay, but the
> tendency for mom to be more accepting (and fear of being rejected once dad
> finds out) and the commonality of sensitive or observant natures that is
> what strengthens the mother-child bond, all post recognizing oneself as
> being 'different' than dad and already having experiencing dad censuring and
> criticising 'gay-ish' or 'unseemly' behavior.
>
> One could take as easily any other item prominant in childhood and point to
> it as being just as 'gateway' or significant or causitive as milk, just that
> I happened on the item milk. But please, don't try to make a case for an
> item that most kids don't experience as a human mother (much less one's own
> mom) being the producer of the substance. More often it is a cherished
> childhood favorite food that is the emotional/psychological link to mom,
> such as jello as a sickbed comfort food or how she cut the crusts off the
> PB&J or a particular from-scratch main course. I just can't see emotional
> ties coming from the cold carton of milk that the fat lunchlady in the
> hairnet plops on the lunchroom tray at school (since we're going with
> stereotypes).
>
> > : And frankly, I just don't see Libra as a martial or sexual sign; that
> > : 'honor' goes to its polar opposite, Aries. Where Mars is in its dignity
> > : (Mars is in its detriment in Libra, where it is least comfortable and
> finds
> > : greatest difficulty expressing itself).
> >
> > Sex (except maybe in the definition of Bill Clinton) requires always
> > two people, typically a Mars and a Venus. If it is two Mars' or two
> > Venus' who have sex, there is more balance, but also a quincunx, since
> > the ruled signs (Aries-Scorpio, Taurus-Libra) are at a quincunx to
> > each other. The aspects of heterosexual sex, Venus-Mars, in turn, are
> > opposition and semi-sextile.
>
> I disagree here, too. Sex requires two people, yes, but sex is entirely a
> Marsian activity.
>
> Venus deals with issues of love, of experiencing the receiving of affection
> and being affected by it; love doesn't require the sex act. Venus's sign is
> the handmirror, reflection and attention. Venus is about beauty and
> attracting attention. Love is fulfilled when the lover expresses being
> caught by the beloved's charm and appreciated qualities. Love is about
> being held by attraction to another, about receiving that attention, and how
> we are >affected< and stirred emotionally by another.
>
> Mars is about satisfying hunger, about what one desires. Sex is about
> satisfaction, about scratching an itch, about satisfying a drive for a
> moment. Sex works perfectly well without love being in the mix (ever hear
> of 'f*ck buddies'? (One night stands?) Surely you've heard about how
> 'angry sex' is some of the best sex? Or that sex in a marriage after the
> love has gone is some of the best?
>
> Mars is about passion, and sex is best in the throes of passion. This is
> the thrill of the body. Love is about the thrill of the heart, about peace
> being placed there; peace is the start of love. Peace is the end of sex;
> until the next go-round.
>
> A balanced physical relationship should address and give room to both Mars
> >and< Venus, but there are plenty of healthy (and unhealthy) relationships
> that are based on just Mars or just Venus, with the left out planet finding
> expression elsewhere in some other area of life.
>
> Venus rules Taurus and Libra.
>
> Taurus, an Earth sign, likes things settled (at peace, untroubled) in the
> real world, in the material existence; Taurus handles this materially in
> his/her life, by materially controlling others, seeing such as a means to
> peace in one's life. Taurus sets signs of affection in quality and
> beautiful things of intrinsic value, so gives and expects such things as
> tokens of love. No gifts, no sense of being valued or appreciated. The way
> you know a Taurean has been moved emotionally, beyond practicality, is when
> s/he becomes generous.
>
> Libra, an Air sign, likes things settled (at peace, untroubled) in the real
> world, in the intellectual existence; Libra handles this intellectually in
> his/her life, by sharing knowledge of idealistic beauty, seeing such as a
> means to peace in one's life. Libra sets signs of affection in quality and
> beautiful things of intellectual stimulation and so gives and expects the
> sharing of such things as tokens of love. No gifts, no sense of being
> valued or appreciated. The way you know a Libran has been moved
> emotionally, beyond impartiality, is when s/he shares subjective joy in art,
> literature, music, and other items and activities of beauty.
>
> These things that Taurus and Libra look for are about the transcendent
> properties of love, how love moves us beyond self; Venus is about moving
> beyond self. Love is about being more concerned with another than oneself.
> Satisfaction in love is becoming so at peace that 'self ' is lost as an
> issue and the other becomes more important. One speaks of 'losing one's
> self in another'. Personal love, universal love, is all about loss of self.
> That's why Venus is exalted in Pisces, the sign that has the most trouble
> maintaining a sense of self, who keeps blurring that boundary between self
> and others.
>
> Mars is ALL about self. Mars is ego and what the ego wants.
>
> Mars rules Aries and rules or co-rules Scorpio.
>
> Scorpio, a Water sign, is attracted by excitement (passion, stirred up) in
> the real world, in the emotional existence; Scorpio handles this emotionally
> in his/her life, by emotionally controlling others, seeing such as a means
> to progress in one's life. Scorpio sets signs of attraction in terms of
> passion and physical affection, so gives and expects such displays as
> expressions of interest. No displays, no sense of being attracted or
> interested. The way you know a Scorpio has become passionately attracted,
> beyond thoughts of reputation, is when s/he becomes demonstrative. Then
> demanding. Then possibly abusive. It's the frustration factor; Mars
> doesn't like being frustrated, and fixed energy can fuel this into a
> long-term grudge.
>
> Aries, a Fire sign, attracted by excitement (passion, stirred up) in the
> real world, in the personal existence; Aries handles this personally in
> his/her life, by personally demonstrating ability (impressing others),
> seeing such as a means to progress in one's life. Aries sets signs of
> attraction in terms of passion and physical affection, so performs such
> displays (often public; the bigger the audience, the better) as expressions
> of interest. No displays, no sense of being attracted or interested. The
> way you know an Arien has become passionately attracted, beyond thoughts of
> reputation, is when s/he becomes demonstrative. Then demanding. Then
> possibly abusive. It's the frustration factor; Mars doesn't like being
> frustrated, and cardinal energy can fuel this into a short-term grudge.
>
> Funny that Venus and Mars both rule one cardinal planet (Libra/Aries) and
> one fixed sign (Taurus/Scorpio), and that each is a polarity and so an
> inverse of the other. And I say part of that is because Venus is an inverse
> of Mars and vice versa, along the polarity of ego or self.
>
> Venus is happy to be Mars's mirror, to reflect his glory back to his hungry
> ego. It isn't the sex, but the stability of his need that she fits to so
> perfectly that makes this relationship agreeable to Venus; it isn't the
> love, but the reliability of the bootycall (and the opportunity to compete
> and win against Venus's husband) that makes this 'relationship' agreeable to
> Mars. Plus Venus probably touched Mars's heart and he experienced a
> transcendence that he never knew anywhere else before; Mars probably
> engendered a hunger in Venus she never knew before.
>
> Venus gives to express how Venus has been affected; Mars takes in order to
> feed/satisfy Mars's need. Love gives with no thought of getting something
> in return; love gives unconditionally as witness to the fact of being moved,
> of being touched at the heart. Desire takes with no thought of giving in
> return unless so giving will increase or precipitate getting; desire is
> transactional when necessary, but prefers to just get.
>
> I really don't see Venus as a 'sexual' sign, but of being willing to give in
> any area of life where there is need to assuage. And the satisfaction is in
> the giving, not the getting. Mars is the one that worries over getting.
>
> -'Thenie
The greek goddess Hera, wife of Zeus, was called "cow-eyed".
Her Roman equivalent, Juno, is also an asteroid, and is now
at 16 Leo 30. At one time, her son Hephaistos tied her to a
chair because he wanted to know for sure if her pretense of
having conceived him without having had sex with a man was
true. She remained firmly with her opinion and he finally
gave up... which I guess I will do just about now, too...
What you wrote above is, in my personal view, certainly quite
sophisticated and has some very good elements, but overall,
it is still very much biased.
--
PS: Currently Pluto is conjunct the center of the galaxy,
the "milky-way", which is around 26 Sagittarius, or so.
WW wrote:
: Ok. But there are many other, stronger associations with my chart, IMO, at
: that time, that would point to posting after a long silence. The Moon was on
: my DEC, Venus was on my IC, the Sun, Neptune Mercury stellium in AQU was in
: my 5th and trine my natal ASC, and the nodal axis had just squared my natal
: Mercury. Given all of that, I can't see how Juno really stands out, you
: know?
I know. It's not that important.
: > Here is a link to a post by Pete from autumn 2004 titled
: > "Juno in Synastry":
: >
: > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/browse_thread/thread/16b1133e1e93f698/0b8a0336c4cf5368
: >
:
: Interesting. I'd forgotten all about that post.
That's a bit the problem with usenet. Nobody hardly remembers
anything. Reminds me of the angel Pygar at the end of the 60's
movie "Barbarella" who says that "Angels have no memory".
: >[...] Lilith is, in my experience, the object
: > that shows very often as clearly as no other in transit.
:
: Really?
Yes, really. It's quite astonishing, because Lilith seems not to
be a major object in the sky (in fact it's not an actual object
at all). Had it not be for Christine's relentless emphasis on
Mean Black Moon Lilith ("BML") in many posts to aam, I would
probably not have started to also always draw Lilith on charts.
Anytime when there is a clear rupture, there is also a Lilith
transit, at least there is much more often a Lilith transit
than of any other of the objects that I draw usually on a chart.
You know, during the previous 4 years I wrote many posts about
the lunar nodes, with many original statements about them, and
also quite a few about Lilith. Most of them are gone now (that
is except the few that somebody replied to) and I do not feel
so much inclined to repeat the same again.
I have the northern lunar node in Taurus. Starting late summer
2005 until this summer I have gradually recreated my web site,
or rather regrown it, like a zen garden in Kyoto. That is where
the main exposure of my findings will go.
I can also bring a few things here, but then only just a few
selected items and only if there is a heartfelt mutual interest
to discuss it here. Take a look at my site. Do you see anything
specific that you would be interested at the moment to discuss
here of the things that I already brought to form there (not
the stubs for future content) ? If yes, just bring it up and
I will reply. Now or a few years...
Alain
LibraLove wrote (in reply to 'Thenie):
: > [...] Didn't you see, "What the Bleep? Down the Rabbit Hole." ?
Yesterday I heard in the news that Madonna (who was quoted in ads
about the movie) has now more or less dumped Kabalah, I assume
because with the northern node now no longer in Aries, that stuff
is no longer fashionable enough...
I did not see the movie, only the trailer. It disturbed me a bit
that it was made by sort of a sect, so it was not exactly science,
but probably for the same reason bringing up things that are more
often not mentioned much in documentations about science. At
least the original stuff at my site aims at similar topics.
Here is the bio of the "cult leader", a woman called JZ Knight,
from the movies' web site:
http://www.whatthebleep.com/scientists/#Ramtha
And a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramtha
: Ramtha is the name of an entity that JZ Knight claims to channel.
: JZ Knight (and Ramtha) claim that Ramtha was a Lemurian warrior
: who raised an army and fought against the tyrants of the times,
: the Atlantians, over 35,000 years ago. Ramtha led an army of over
: 2.5 million across the continents, conquering 2/3 of the known
: world, which was going through cataclysmic geological changes.
: According to his teachings, he led the army for ten years until
: he was betrayed and almost killed.
:
: Ramtha spent the next seven years in isolation recovering and
: observing nature, among other things. He later mastered many skills,
: including foresight and out-of-body experiences, until he led his
: army to the Indus river when aged in his late seventies. Ramtha
: taught them everything he knew for 120 days, before he ascended
: before them. He made a promise to his army that he would come back
: to teach them again, and so he appeared to JZ Knight in 1977 to
: re-educate the "forgotten gods", those who had forgotten themselves
: and their divinity.
Cheiron was discovered in 1977. Story reminds me also of Alexander
the Great. Wasn't he a Leo ? I think he was born the same day that
the temple of some goddess burnt down. The month July has its name
from Julius Ceasar who, in turn, comes from a clan that apparently
came from the small greek island Iulis (it has several other names),
an island quite close to Athens, but still (at least until recently)
quite difficult to reach, because there were no regular ferries
from Piraeus, you had to depart from a smaller harbor, as far as I
remember. In a zodiac centered on Delphi*, Athens is where Virgo
would be, although in earlier times (an Age earlier), that would
have been Leo. On the island Iulis is a worn down sculpture of a
lion that reminds, although literally likely Age of Aries, of older
times. Here are two photos of the lion (c.f. also "Hestia" post by
me in summer 2004, I think):
http://www.greece4kids.com/islandkea.html (scroll down)
http://www.ou.edu/class/ahi1113/slides/klion-3.jpg
and this link:
http://www.greece.org/poseidon/work/Islands2/cyclades/kea/Lion_of_Kea.htm
Neptune is retrograde and getting once more a bit more in opposition
with my sun. I think it was Martin Lewicky once quoted Robert Hand
saying that "Saturn is practical reality, Neptune is ultimate reality".
Just an illusion ? Athens has a strong link to Neptune, as is shown in
the dispute that Poseidon and Athene had over it and which Athene won
with the help of her father Zeus (and brother of Poseidon), as Zeus
refrained from voting in the verdict and the 6 goddesses voted for
Athene and the remaining 5 gods for Poseidon.
--
* http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
* From: "'Thenie" <mtn_girl@verizon.net>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
* Subject: Re: Milk (was: [...] kinda long, sorry)
* Organization: Circular Logic
* Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:48:26 -0500
[...]
: > What about Freud ?
:
: What about him?
:
: -'Thenie
Usually in a series of three replies, it is the third that
is the fated one (3 Fates / moon phases, Venus, etc.). With
Mercury retrograde, that might have been just the other way
round this time. Anyway:
: > What about Freud ?
:
: What about him?
Exactly what I thought. Thanks! :) :) :)
Have a nice summer... :)
72012072006@news.bluewin.ch> <1152716595.602238.315120@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
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LibraLove wrote:
: Wait a minute, Alain!
:
: You are spinnning this into a "cult" film by a "sect". It is
: definitely not.
:
: There were 5 Ph.D. physicists, 6 physicians, 1 molecular biologist and
: 2 spiritual teacher-mystic-cult types. Start here looking at the
: credits, Alain, not at your bookmark! LOL
:
: http://www.whatthebleep.com/scientists/#Tiller
:
: Ramtha, the Bridget Bardot of spirituality, the only one I noticed from
: the channelling of La-La land, because who could miss her as she has
: such sex appeal. By that I mean she is a blonde with a deep voice with
: full pouty lips (think Jolie) and sultry Kohled eyes.
:
: After the 11 men with beards and grizzled look speak, they needed
: someone with some sex appeal. That is just good film making. Without
: her deep sulty voice explaining why we humans are all so wonderful and
: important and powerful, who would want to see it?
:
: I saw it the other night at "The Crossings" here. I had seen the
: original a couple of years back and they have just added a cartooned
: flying physicist to describe the Universe we live in in terms of
: physics and a couple of other snips of new info. It is a very
: interesting film. I thoroughly enjoyed both the older and the new
: version.
According to Google, it appears at least to be somewhat controversial
whether the movie is a veiled ad for the cult. That question is not
so important to me; if they can make a good movie for maybe the "wrong"
reasons, that's fine with me. Astrologically, I would define their
message most likely as sagittarian ("reality is an illusion"), but
(as I said) I only saw the trailer...
One more thing about milk, rabbit holes, Iulis, etc: Rome was founded
by the twins Romulus and Remus who were breastfed by a female wolf.
Romeo was the lover of Julia (<=> Julius, Iulis).
'nuff
WW wrote:
[...]
: > You know, during the previous 4 years I wrote many posts about
: > the lunar nodes, with many original statements about them,
:
: I was so busy with life for the past few years, and offline completely for
: well over a year, so I probably missed much of what you said. The nodes are
: fascinating, especially when you watch them work as timers for transits and
: progressions.
Most of what I wrote about the nodes was before spring 2004 and
I guess I essentially stopped to post fundamental things about
the nodes by summer 2004 or so.
: and
: > also quite a few about Lilith. Most of them are gone now (that
: > is except the few that somebody replied to) and I do not feel
: > so much inclined to repeat the same again.
:
: I know what you mean. But they really aren't gone unless you "no archived"
: your posts. Anyone looking up the nodes or Lillith in the Google archives
: can find and read it. Sort of like it's posted for posterity. That's how I
: look at it, anyway.
No, no. I really had them deleted from Google's archives. All of
them, except one (and the current posts, which I will delete at
some point in near future). I feel a lot better since I deleted
them all. I interpret that (among other things) in terms of my
lunar nodes (Venus vs. Mars ruled signs, in my case).
: >
: > I have the northern lunar node in Taurus. Starting late summer
: > 2005 until this summer I have gradually recreated my web site,
: > or rather regrown it, like a zen garden in Kyoto. That is where
: > the main exposure of my findings will go.
:
: Good idea. Usenet is vast and things get lost in the shuffle.
Yes, I think so, too. Then again, the web as a whole is again vast.
Nowadays nobody reads a web site like they would read a book, from
beginning to end. People look at web sites like they look at books
in a bookstore, they open them, look around a little bit in them
and then mostly put them back to the shelf. My web log shows that
clearly. Astrologically, I suppose one major reason for this is
that Pluto is in Sagittarius. Relatively soon, Pluto will enter
Capricorn and then things might change somewhat...
: >
: > I can also bring a few things here, but then only just a few
: > selected items and only if there is a heartfelt mutual interest
: > to discuss it here. Take a look at my site. Do you see anything
: > specific that you would be interested at the moment to discuss
: > here of the things that I already brought to form there (not
: > the stubs for future content) ? If yes, just bring it up and
: > I will reply. Now or a few years...
: >
: I've downloaded all three zips, but there is a LOT of material to consider,
: so I'll get back to you on it. Although I would appreciate your thoughts on
: the nodes now (if you could just point me to the right spot to read that).
The three ZIPs contain the following:
- web2006.zip: The current contents of the site. There is not much actual
content there, yet. The "meat" is mainly in the 4 subsections of the
section titled "elementary philosophy", and even that is very minimal.
- web2005.zip: The contents of my site at the end of Decemeber 2005. Not
much different from the above; the 4 mentioned subsections are identical.
So, no direct need to have additionally a look at this one.
- odyssey.zip: Contains essentially one 29 page document, discoveries.pdf,
titled "A few new discoveries in physics". This documents presents, very
tersely (written in 2001/02; Pluto opp Saturn) a unified model that would
explain how astrology, and other phenomena like telepathy or precognition
might work, plus specific hypotheses about western astrological symbolism,
most importantly a simple model of the 12 signs of the zodiac. Since this
document is only in the "Archive" section of my site, I am more reluctant
to get into its content already now, but if you find something fundamental
and central enough in it that you would like to discuss, bring it up here.
I have googled for old posts about the nodes by me that were preserved in
replies and found only one reply by Ray Murphy. You can find it easily if
you search groups, say, for "nodes group:alt.astrology.tropical" (without
the quotes, of course). It contains an older set of hyptotheses about the
nodes that is, although in a way also a bit biased, still probably quite
important for life. This might be why a reply survived. Here it is:
H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
more happy (e).
: With the recent transit of Uranus in Pisces (which first completed a natal
: grand trine in my chart from the 5th house, part of a kite formation and now
: is opp my natal Mars and square my natal Venus) as well as Saturn's transit
: through Leo opp to my Aquarian Jupiter and 5th house, I seem to be getting
: strong urges to write two different novels that have been in my head for
: years, and to paint (especially things like murals, etc).
Good luck with that. :)
: I'm thinking Saturn's urge is for me to make it concrete, bring it into
: existence now, and I'm inclined to obey. So I suspect my time on usenet may
: be limited in the near future (although I will continue to post here and at
: aamod when I can), since there aren't enough hours in the day to do
: everything. But I will go through your stuff and comment when the mood
: strikes, so keep an eye out, if you would, and we'll talk. And if you have
: something you want to bring up, I'll answer that, as well.
That would coincide essentially also with my wish (relatively little
amount of communication, like most of the time at most a post a week
or even less, so that I still have time for other things that feel
also more urged to do now).
Alain
I wrote:
: Beep wrote:
: : I thought it was something that was said, not nipple-tweaking:
: : http://sport.scotsman.com/football_worldcup.cfm?id=1004132006
:
: Today Zidane's agent apparently announced that Zidane will
: explain what happened in a few days. Stay tuned, and maybe
: don't jump to conclusions too quickly, at least as long as
: Mercury remains retrograde... :)
Yesterday evening, Zidane gave an interview at the french TV
station Canal+ (at 19:40 local time, 17:40 UTC). In it, he
essentially presented his excuses to the children and families
who had watched his action and called it "intolerable". He
also said that Materazzi had provoked him with insults about
his family and that Materazzi had grabbed his shirt, to which
Zidane had replied that if he (Materazzi) wanted his shirt so
much, he could have it after the match.
So except that Materazzi denies to have said anything about
Zidane's mother, the statements of the two are essentially
consistent. In addition, the statements are also consistent
with lip-reading from the video recordings of the incident.
So, things appear to have been cleared up, case closed, right?
No.
Take a look at these two video sequences (different angles):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaqSsXkQvjo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IE2JBaBSBk
Focus on the starting sequence where Materazzi's left hand
goes to the left half of Zidane's chest. From both angles,
you can clearly see that at one point Zidane's head and the
upper part of his body go suddenly forward as if he had felt
some physical pain.
If you had a Cancer sun like Zidane (and the rest of his birth
chart), would you bring that issue out into the public if you
had the choice (like he did, since neither Materazzi nor the
media mentioned it) or would protection of the innocent (i.e.
of the children he mentioned in his excuse, who had watched the
game sunday evening) be more important to you, even if that
would be at least partially disadvantageous to the way the
public perceives you ? I think (again) that he did the right
thing.
Alain
Pedantus wrote:
: http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane_01.gif
Why no Cheiron in Aries, why only three planets on that
chart ? tVenus in Gemini ?
I think (again) that he did the right thing.
May sound strange, but is like that. :)
Cancer (sun now, Zidane, France, USA) is not a logical
sign, but is a lot about doing the right thing despite
outside opinion (c.f. e.g. war in Iraq), but now I am
also talking about one of the three planets you drew.
Anyway, no agreement needed here.
Hero comes from Hera (Roman Juno); Heracles means "Glory
of Hera"; Juno is June (end of Gemini/start of Cancer).
(talking again about one of the planets you drew)
There's joy in repetition...
(remember the first series of posts we exchanged about
3 years ago, about Liz Greene, Gemini, butterfly effect?)
tVenus in Gemini...
(probably won't get into a long exchange of posts this
time, despite the beauty of venus reflecting the piscean
ocean on Zeus/Jupiter's crown, or something like that)
tVenus in Gemini...
In article <J%Mtg.23433$O35.8663@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
Pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alain Stalder wrote:
> > Pedantus wrote:
> >
> > : http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane_01.gif
> >
> > Why no Cheiron in Aries, why only three planets on that
> > chart ? tVenus in Gemini ?
> >
> > I think (again) that he did the right thing.
> >
> > May sound strange, but is like that. :)
> >
> > Cancer (sun now, Zidane, France, USA) is not a logical
> > sign, but is a lot about doing the right thing despite
> > outside opinion (c.f. e.g. war in Iraq), but now I am
> > also talking about one of the three planets you drew.
> >
> > Anyway, no agreement needed here.
> >
> > Hero comes from Hera (Roman Juno); Heracles means "Glory
> > of Hera"; Juno is June (end of Gemini/start of Cancer).
> >
> > (talking again about one of the planets you drew)
> >
> > There's joy in repetition...
> >
> > (remember the first series of posts we exchanged about
> > 3 years ago, about Liz Greene, Gemini, butterfly effect?)
> >
> > tVenus in Gemini...
> >
> > (probably won't get into a long exchange of posts this
> > time, despite the beauty of venus reflecting the piscean
> > ocean on Zeus/Jupiter's crown, or something like that)
> >
> > tVenus in Gemini...
> >
>
>
> Alain,
>
> When you realize you were born already in possession of the essential
> "knowledge" of humanity's psychical-mythological heritage, you are free
> to perceive the world in a much more meaningful way. It is far more
> enlightening to question the nature of the foundations of our cultural
> perceptions than to memorize any of our cultural founder's highly
> stylized conclusions.
>
> Look at this photo:
> http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane-Cup-and--GoldenSphere.gif
>
> The impersonal transcendent Art, merely using photographer as a
> temporal vehicle, is trying to teach *you* something.
>
> You can *see* for yourself what is essential to the situation you
> wish to complicated beyond all recognition.
>
> Here then is the golden ball (Sun) and the cup (Jupiter)...the
> opposition aspect is implied by this type of symbol projection. And,
> your Pluto-incorporating "hero" being sent to the place of damnation due
> to his own unfortunate choice to incorporate rage in his formula for
> Self-expression:
>
> http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane_01.gif
>
>
> What you would have me repeat (above), merely for your own
> satisfaction, I can find by randomly opening dusty irrelevant volumes of
> well-intended tangential gibberish.
>
> I don't mean to be unkind, but what I have to show is ineluctable and
> much more valuable to understanding our symbolic heritage, and its
> analysis, than any stylish fabrication you apparently just pull off the
> rack and wear with a curious pride.
>
> Pedantus Pugnacious
Looks like the trickster got me this time.
I looked again at video clips of the incident, this time at
higher resolution clips from google video. Especially in one
of them titled "Zidane vs Materazzi different angel" , it is
almost certain that Materazzi was holding Zidane's shirt,
but did not pinch his nipple.
Reminds me of Mozart-Salieri (the latter was born almost the
same day as Materazzi; 18 vs. 19 August; nodes...)
Ever compared the title illustration of Liz Greene's "The
Astrology of Fate" (which she did herself) with her chart?
I did look at your site in detail at one point this winter.
There is certainly something to this art-chart mirror.
By the way, there is real content at my site, you just
happened to click the wrong two links of 10 at your last
visit... (guess I got you then ;) There is content in the
four subsections of the section "elementary philosophy"
(and in odyssey.zip that you can download in the archive
section).
Are you aware of the bloody medieval roots of soccer?
(Not that I would know a lot about it nor that I would
claim that the roots are actually in that time).
Alain
In article <k3Ttg.86362$3B.69549@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
Pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alain Stalder wrote:
> > In article <J%Mtg.23433$O35.8663@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
> > Pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Alain Stalder wrote:
> >>> Pedantus wrote:
> >>>
> >>> : http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane_01.gif
> >>>
> >>> Why no Cheiron in Aries, why only three planets on that
> >>> chart ? tVenus in Gemini ?
> >>>
> >>> I think (again) that he did the right thing.
> >>>
> >>> May sound strange, but is like that. :)
> >>>
> >>> Cancer (sun now, Zidane, France, USA) is not a logical
> >>> sign, but is a lot about doing the right thing despite
> >>> outside opinion (c.f. e.g. war in Iraq), but now I am
> >>> also talking about one of the three planets you drew.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, no agreement needed here.
> >>>
> >>> Hero comes from Hera (Roman Juno); Heracles means "Glory
> >>> of Hera"; Juno is June (end of Gemini/start of Cancer).
> >>>
> >>> (talking again about one of the planets you drew)
> >>>
> >>> There's joy in repetition...
> >>>
> >>> (remember the first series of posts we exchanged about
> >>> 3 years ago, about Liz Greene, Gemini, butterfly effect?)
> >>>
> >>> tVenus in Gemini...
> >>>
> >>> (probably won't get into a long exchange of posts this
> >>> time, despite the beauty of venus reflecting the piscean
> >>> ocean on Zeus/Jupiter's crown, or something like that)
> >>>
> >>> tVenus in Gemini...
> >>>
> >>
> >> Alain,
> >>
> >> When you realize you were born already in possession of the essential
> >> "knowledge" of humanity's psychical-mythological heritage, you are free
> >> to perceive the world in a much more meaningful way. It is far more
> >> enlightening to question the nature of the foundations of our cultural
> >> perceptions than to memorize any of our cultural founder's highly
> >> stylized conclusions.
> >>
> >> Look at this photo:
> >> http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane-Cup-and--GoldenSphere.gif
> >>
> >> The impersonal transcendent Art, merely using photographer as a
> >> temporal vehicle, is trying to teach *you* something.
> >>
> >> You can *see* for yourself what is essential to the situation you
> >> wish to complicated beyond all recognition.
> >>
> >> Here then is the golden ball (Sun) and the cup (Jupiter)...the
> >> opposition aspect is implied by this type of symbol projection. And,
> >> your Pluto-incorporating "hero" being sent to the place of damnation due
> >> to his own unfortunate choice to incorporate rage in his formula for
> >> Self-expression:
> >>
> >> http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane_01.gif
> >>
> >>
> >> What you would have me repeat (above), merely for your own
> >> satisfaction, I can find by randomly opening dusty irrelevant volumes of
> >> well-intended tangential gibberish.
> >>
> >> I don't mean to be unkind, but what I have to show is ineluctable and
> >> much more valuable to understanding our symbolic heritage, and its
> >> analysis, than any stylish fabrication you apparently just pull off the
> >> rack and wear with a curious pride.
> >>
> >> Pedantus Pugnacious
> >
> > Looks like the trickster got me this time.
> >
> > I looked again at video clips of the incident, this time at
> > higher resolution clips from google video. Especially in one
> > of them titled "Zidane vs Materazzi different angel" , it is
> > almost certain that Materazzi was holding Zidane's shirt,
> > but did not pinch his nipple.
> >
> > Reminds me of Mozart-Salieri (the latter was born almost the
> > same day as Materazzi; 18 vs. 19 August; nodes...)
> >
> > Ever compared the title illustration of Liz Greene's "The
> > Astrology of Fate" (which she did herself) with her chart?
> > I did look at your site in detail at one point this winter.
> > There is certainly something to this art-chart mirror.
>
> Then stop fighting the experience and *see*, grasshopper...:)
>
> The art-based psyche on man, freed of socially convenient preconceived
> rational biases, and limitations imposed by mind-manipulating
> expectations, can snap a photo with a great depth of psychological
> significance. All fine arts, astrology included, share the same
> ineffable root structure in our soul. In the realm of the human soul,
> Sun *is* a gold ball, Jupiter *is* a cup. The man in the picture had
> always identified himself with the image...that's the reality of his
> individual soul...it has no group-oriented translation...individuals
> actually exist, they are not merely malignant culture-clones and
> inconvenient statistical anomalies...:)
>
> http://pedantus.free.fr/Zidane_01a2.gif
>
> >
> > By the way, there is real content at my site, you just
> > happened to click the wrong two links of 10 at your last
> > visit... (guess I got you then ;)
>
> Simply paste the URL that wish to be read, silly, and stop shadow
> boxing before you hit a wall and hurt yourself...:)
>
>
> There is content in the
> > four subsections of the section "elementary philosophy"
> > (and in odyssey.zip that you can download in the archive
> > section).
> >
> > Are you aware of the bloody medieval roots of soccer?
> > (Not that I would know a lot about it nor that I would
> > claim that the roots are actually in that time).
> >
> > Alain
> >
>
> You need only value the relevance of the *living* symbolisms your own
> time, in the here and now, and focus on the glossed over specifics of
> individuals, as *they* exist, to at once leap out of the Earth-fatal
> inhuman habit of seeing the world of people as creatures either in
> compliance or at variance with any number silly egocentric pigeonhole
> expectations.
No good. It's hard to get an offer for compromise when Saturn
is in Leo. Turning one down is then never fruitful.
: Simply paste the URL that wish to be read, silly, and stop shadow
: boxing before you hit a wall and hurt yourself...:)
No.
Here's the birth data of this group:
"alt.astrology.moderated" - born November 8, 1998 00:04 am
CST Lisle, Illinois, USA. (88W04 41N48) URL:
http://readystump.algebra.com/~aam/
See also Gail Klein's "defense of the election chart for
alt.astrology.moderated" there ("Electing the Best Moment
for Creation" or "How to Drive Yourself Stark Raving Mad"):
http://readystump.algebra.com/~aam/Creation.txt
I guess with aam's sun in Scorpio it is unlikely that people
will let you "off the hook" unless they get some feeling as
to which parts of your interpretations are to the point and
which parts might be rather personal bias. I am sure there
is quite a bit of the first. Good luck!
According to Google you have quite a long experience in
usenet -- alas, I guess, every group is still different.
Please no attacks to this one... (Of course the above
mini-analysis based on sun sign only may be misleading,
or maybe not; enough astrologers here to do it...)
Please no attacks...
Alain
I. R. Heller wrote:
: do please remember that (like now and until July 28th) ME rx *does* affect
: us all - sooner or later. Miss-communication *will* happen ;-)
That's cool, miscommunication spelled almost as "Miss Communication".
Sorry, but I could not resist this Mercury retro self confirmation;
certainly no personal attack intended. :)
Cool!
Pedantus wrote:
: > Alain Stalder wrote:
: >
: > >
: > > Ever compared the title illustration of Liz Greene's "The
: > > Astrology of Fate" (which she did herself) with her chart?
: > > I did look at your site in detail at one point this winter.
: > > There is certainly something to this art-chart mirror.
: > >
: > >
: >
: > Is this the correct cover art (publishers change stuff a lot)?
: >
: > http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a1.gif
Yes, it is. I have never seen this particular book with a
different cover.
: >
: > The "Mars Effect" of Horoscopic Expressionism:
: > The natal Mars indicator--the pointed object(map dividers) is correct
: > for the chart I have.
: >
: > http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
I have the same data. Besides the "Mars Effect", the scissors
might also be interpreted as the "scissors" of a larger Scorpio
constellation that was apparently split into 2 constellations
Scorpio and Libra a few hundred years BC (as far as official
historical knowledge is concerned; the scissors are supposed
to have become scale pans, sort of a more "civilized" form of
justice). I also like that the left foot of the young woman
sitting on the left is quite exactly on the DC in Pisces (feet),
but I am sure you noticed that one, too, already.
: >
: > The drawing is not a convincing Identifier of Greene as artist...but ,
: > if she did drawit, then the birth time I have for her would seem pretty
: > dern close.
The first page in the book with copyright information, ISBN
number, etc., contains the following statement:
"Cover illustration by Liz Greene"
: >
: > Rog
Alain
Pedantus wrote:
: :| ? Apparently you are too tuned-in to your own internal dialog,
: Alain...you're not communicating anything with any meaning/significance
: beyond the borders of your own consciousness. There was no offer here
: for anyone else to see or turn down.
I have Mercury (almost stationary, slightly retrograde) at the
ascendent at the end of the 12th house. That is a very effective
mirror in communication, which is why people who talk to me
superficially often see themselves...
I know always precisely who, where and when I am at any point
(Sun in Leo, moon in Aries).
As I told you another time, I have Saturn in Pisces, so it is
quite a bit of hard work to emulate just a little bit of
piscean multiplicity and narcissism in public for me.
End of communication.
)o+
--
PS: Don't cha ever call me Alaine again, &ç%*&/%!
In article <YFWtg.58910$W97.53553@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
Pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alain Stalder wrote:
> > : Simply paste the URL that wish to be read, silly, and stop shadow
> > : boxing before you hit a wall and hurt yourself...:)
> >
> > No.
> >
> I see why you refuse to point to a url, now...they all say, "In
> preparation, to appear maybe in 2007"
>
>
> Oh boy, what can I say? Looking at the pages I didn't deem to
> access, I see they were empty...:) Bet you anything I did look at these
> before and couldn't remember any "content" for the obvious reason. I
> shouldn't poke fun at you Alain, an I'm a little slow on the uptake, but
> even slower to condemn. As I understand the situation, you have a manic
> person's view of your incubating creation, and the overwhelming feeling
> you will give birth to something of enormous value to all. If we are
> worth our salt, we all suffer from that delusion--the chemistry that
> drives us into being is not always kind; perhaps it is "thinking" only
> of itself. I wouls try to stay away from the word "perfect"...striving
> for perfection, where none can exist, is often just plain fatal.
>
> Rog
Wait a second. Looked to me like you were just jealous.
But that's not only it, right? Looks like you are not
"playing" a schizophrenic, looks more like you *are*
actually schizophrenic. Have you been diagnosed as a
schizophrenic in the past?
As to my site: Saturn's in Leo; not easy to see the purpose
of the grail when Saturn's in Leo. Usually don't have to
defend against that sort of attacks against me, but I guess
with Saturn conjunct my sun some of that is unavoidable.
No big deal, though. :)
Suppose Einstein had written a web page nowadays and, I am
oversimplifying here, put up a single page with "E = mc^2",
then probably most visitors would fail to see the meaning
of the site and would call it "empty", even though it would
contain a fundamental discovery.
As I said, the four subsections of the section "elementary
philosophy" contain something special and fundamental. It
is presented minimally, but the substance is there.
End of communication sticks.
There were 21 posts in that thread, which I would like to
put side by side with the Major Arcana 1-21 of the Tarot:
1 - The Magician: Original post, event, Zidane (me)
2 - The High Priestess: Nipple-tweaking ? (Beep)
3 - The Empress: Update, Materazzi (me)
4 - The Emperor: Update, video clips (me)
5 - The Hierophant: Cup, ... (Pedantus)
6 - The Lovers: tVenus in Gemini (me)
7 - The Chariot: I cool without recipies (Pedantus)
8 - Justice: Zidane-Cup-and-GoldenSphere (Pedantus)
9 - The Hermit: Trickster got me: no tweaking; Liz Greene (me)
10 - Wheel of Fortune: ??? (Pedantus)
11 - Strength: No good, offer for compromise? (me)
12 - The Hanged Man: URL ? No. (me)
13 - Death/Transformation: Concrete info/questions Liz Greene (Pedantus)
14 - Temperance: Problems with pasting URLs ? (Pedantus)
15 - The Devil: Conrete feedback Liz Greene, incl. scissors (me)
16 - The Tower: Internal dialog ? No offer ? (Pedantus)
17 - The Star: Schizophrenic ? just a cigar ? (Pedantus)
18 - The Moon: exactphilosophy.net empty ?, ... (Pedantus)
19 - The Sun: About me, end of communication 1, Alaine?!%! (me)
20 - Judgement: Jealous ? schizophrenic ? not empty., eoc2 (me)
21 - The World: Grail ? Oh yeah, the "Cup"... :) (Pedantus)
This mirror stuff is Pisces with a bit of Aquarius. Why this is
prominent now, is because Uranus is in Pisces. Why this became
popular (Grail's legend, Tarot) around the 12th century, is (as
exposed earlier) because this is the transition to the third
decanate of the Age of Pisces, influenced already by the Age of
Aquarius. (I expect at least one person to disagree, though.)
This post corresponds to card 0, "The Fool" (or in other words,
to Hermes/Mercury, I guess, even though I cannot exclude that
at least someone will disagree with that, too).
Anyway.
)o+
WW wrote:
: > H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
: > the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
: > People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
: > the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
: > more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
: > more happy (e).
:
: Oh, see, I like that a lot. It makes a lot of sense, especially the last bit
: about instinctive/conscious effect. And it is a good way of explaining what
: I've read over the years about the nodes as they relate to the natal chart.
Let me focus on a particular aspect of (d) and (e) this time.
The lunar nodes are the two points on the ecliptic where the moon
rises* south to north above the ecliptic (n. node) resp. sinks*
north to south below the ecliptic (southern node). If you go north,
temperature essentially decreases*, if you go south, it increases*.
Cooling things down makes them generally more solid, harder, more
defined, more concrete, more dense (vapor becomes water, water
freezes to ice), while heating things generally does the opposite.
I see thus the n. node* as related to condensing an individual with
well defined borders out of a broader, more unconscious, collective
background (s.node*). Yesterday I found this interesting passage in
Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths" (123.2):
: Another two-mouthed cave is mentionned incidentally in 'Odyssey'
: xiii. 103 ff., as one near which Odysseus first slept on his return
: to Ithaca at the head of the Bay of Phorcys. Its northern entrance
: was for men, the southern for gods; and it contained two-handled jars
: used as hives, stone basins, and plentiful spring-water. There were
: also stone looms - stalactites? - on which the Naiads wove purple
: garments. If Porphyry ('On the Cave of the Nymphs')** was right in
: making this a cave in which rites of birth and divine rebirth were
: practised, the basins served for blood and the springs for lustration.
Thus gods (s.node) as the collective conceptual background out of which
the individual greek hero (man, n.node) emerges ?
Odysseus' story fits well with that perception: The s.node is Poseidon
who keeps Odysseus from returning home in various ways, making him end
up on various islands, on which he is tempted to stay. The n.node is
Odysseus wish and goal to get home to his home island Ithaca.
This is what makes Odysseus in my view so modern and different from the
other heroes is greek mythology: He has a goal, a place to go home to.
All the other heroes go out on their quests, do good things and fail at
others, but there is no clear persistent goal. Their stories usually do
not end at a special place. Odysseus is different. As much as the gods
sometimes throw him around, each time he wakes up dizzy on an unknown
island, he still knows where he wants go: home to Ithaca.
The Odyssey has 24 (=2x12) chapters, two passages through the zodiac.
Thus it is also very fitting that he returns to Ithaca in chapter 13,
the first chapter of the second passage through the zodiac. Cool also
that when Odysseus wakes up in front of that cave, he does at first
not recognize that he is back home (caused by Pallas Athene).
But maybe this interpretation is too strongly influenced by my chart,
with Neptune (Poseidon) at my s.node ? Or maybe this is just why the
topic interests me and colors my findings ? Probably a bit of both.
Summary:
- north/south
- cooler/warmer => condense/dilute+evaporate, up/down, ...
- man/gods => conscious individual / unconscious collective, ...
--
* Only on the northern hemisphere, if you go north it gets colder. On
the southern hemisphere it is the other way round. It is also so that
north is perceived as down and south as up there. This makes me wonder
whether the lunar nodes should be interpreted the other way round on
the southern hemisphere? If you were born on the southern hemisphere,
does the s.node represent what the n.node represents of the northern
hemisphere, or not? If you travel to the other hemisphere, would your
destiny magically flip to the other node? Any experiences with that?
** http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0766192784
Porphyry was apparently a neoplatonist philosopher (ca. 232-304 CE).
WW wrote:
> My hero. :-)
>
> July 20, 1947 2:00 AM Autlan De Navarro, Jalisco, Mexico.
>
> Chart:
> http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0000589.htm
>
>
> Carlos Santana has had many musical influences in his life, beginning with
> his father, who was a mariachi violinist. Of course, with his Moon (early
> childhood) in Leo in the 4th house, his early experiences included
> performers and performing himself, and he formed musical roots at an early
> age.
>
> Says Santana:
> "My father taught me a lot of music when I was just a child; about European
> music, because you know, Mexico was conquered by Spain and Germany and so
> that influence was also in Mexico."
>
> Santana recalls his first musical memory: "there was this Mexican band,
> dressed up with bows and arrows. They were playing some funky weird music-I
> didn't know it yet, but it was like Lee Perry, George Clinton, and Sun Ra
> mixed up; Mexican funky."
>
> (Here's a great interview with Santana that really tells the story of his
> early musicical influences and life from his own point of view:
> http://www.aforum.com/cgibin/forum14@181.eKteaYJDhMg.119445@.12631856 )
>
> With his Mercury, Venus and Sun in Cancer, he responds and reacts to music
> in a very emotional way. He had what he calls a musical revelation at the
> Fillmore West in San Francisco in 1966, where he saw B.B. King for the first
> time:
>
> "It was B.B.'s first time at the Fillmore, and he got a standing ovation
> before he even began playing," Santana told Guitar World's Alan DiPerna. "He
> was so moved that he started crying. And I remember, because of the way the
> light was hitting him, all you could see was the glitter of tears in his
> eyes and the diamonds on his rings when he put his hand up to his face. And
> when you were a kid who'd just come up from Tijuana and felt like you didn't
> know anything, that kind of thing really hit you.
>
> B.B. King hit the note and it changed everything for me. I said, `That's it.
> There's the sound I've been searching for.' I felt like a kid chasing the
> circus." Santana added that part of what King's playing taught him was to
> think in terms of the individual note. "A note is like a rose," he said. "It
> can be closed, or halfway open, or all the way in bloom. You have to know
> when to hit that note the right way-choose how each note is going to be.
> It's like being a gardener. You want to present the best possible bouquet."
>
> Aside from the emotion Santana always conveys in his music, I love the fact
> that he is so inclusive of other styles and musicians. His collaborative
> albums (especially Supernatural) have been phenomenally successfull, and
> he's worked with such disparate artists as Rob Thomas, Steven Tyler, Mary J.
> Blige, Eagle Eye Cherry, Dave Matthews and Michelle Branch. I think that
> tendency can be seen both in his Aquarian midheaven, and in his 1st house
> Gemini Mars and Uranus. Perhaps even in his Jupiter-ruled 11th house.
>
> He said in the interview referenced above:
> "It's important that people know that music itself is like a rainbow-we need
> to honor African music, pre-Columbian and aboriginal musics, our first
> foundations. I love to turn people on to that, however I can-especially
> other musicians. When you do that, you can sleep really good at night."
>
> No matter who he plays with or what he plays, though, the sound of Santana's
> guitar is unmistakable. All the influences on him lead straight back to his
> own, singular style. Cancer has been likened to a river in this way:
> although a traveler, Cancer always depends on it's source to continue it's
> journey.
I remember B.B. King expressing his admiration for Texan guitarrist
Stevie Ray Vaughan, because he could just play like river, once he
started, things would just flow... SRV was born 3 October 1954, thus
Jupiter conj. Uranus at 27 Cancer (conjunct Santana's sun), and
Venus and Lilith in Scorpio (the river away from the source, towards
the sea (Pisces))...
By the way, Happy Birthday Sharyn! :)
)o+
WW wrote:
> "CFA" <bogus@alt.not> wrote in message
> news:sh8lb25lcaovk0q16aiho1duekocvrt4tk@4ax.com...
> > WW writes...
> >>"Hermes" wrote :
> >
> >>> But maybe this interpretation is too strongly influenced by my chart,
> >>> with Neptune (Poseidon) at my s.node ? Or maybe this is just why the
> >>> topic interests me and colors my findings ? Probably a bit of both.
> >>
> >>If Neptune is on your SN, perhaps your past was somehow excessively
> >>"mystic," which is maybe why now, you strive to follow a more concrete,
> >>empirical approach (ie: science)?
> >
> > I have Neptune on my SN, too, as well as Mercury (in Libra in 9).
> > Seems like this life I've had to leave the monastery and start my own
> > road show...
> >
> Odd you should say that. I was just waking up this morning (I'd been
> dreaming but don't really remember anything except colors, greens and bright
> blues and pinks, and feeling like I had just gotten through having a long
> dialogue with someone...you know how that is?) and you popped into my head.
> I thought of this conversation, and so many others we've had and I thought,
> "He was a priest once." I got the clearest sense of you in that role, like
> if I turned my head I could see you.
Is the path towards the light rather Saturn or rather Jupiter?
Liz Greene, on the cover illustration (drawn by her) of her
book about Saturn, has Saturn carrying a lamp that displays
the hexagram (e.g. "as above, so below"):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0877283060 (click cover to enlarge)
In the "discussion" I had with the Pedanti at aam in the Zidane
thread, at least one Pedantus disagreed with me linking the
pair of scissors in the cover illustration of Liz Greene's "The
Astrology of Fate" with Libra (and her several planets there).
Liz Greene's birth chart:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portrait.php?clef=qn3V8kEpKg6y
Link to "The Astrology of Fate" at amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0877286361 (click cover to enlarge)
Interesting also that in the Saturn cover illustration, Saturn
carries the grail close to his body at the center of the chart,
while at least one Pedantus strongly associated cups with
Jupiter. But maybe most intersting with regard to that thread
is that none of the Pedanti identified the glyph of Leo with
the exit of the cave in the cover illustration of "The Astrology
of Fate". (Leo's glyph, which reminds of the nodes, is also
a snake, an animal that was kept in the house to catch
mice (Apollon's animal) in antiquity instead of today's cats).
Possible caveat: Liz Greene is an astrologer, so it is possible
in this case that she consciously and purposely made these cover
illustrations reflect her own birth chart. In fact, this might
even be an ancient practice. Maybe Tarot cards, in general,
are also (or were originally) veiled depictions of birth charts
or of charts of other events. The 22 leaders of the Knights
Templar come to mind, for example.
In conclusion, I am not sure which of the planets might fit
better with which node. In fact, my most common experience
with regard to the nodes is that almost nothing fits really
with them, but at each try to fit some item (planet, sign, etc.)
with them, one usually learns a lot about that item.
I posted this about 2.5 years ago (15 February 2004):
Book of Changes - Lunar Nodes
The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
come back as a cow in my next life?
Man: No, one does not come back as something that
one has been before.
There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
then again feed young cows. That is why what can
grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
and house of the northern node.
Some analytical attempts and why they appear not
to reveal much about the nodes themselves:
The lunar nodes are the two spots where the lunar
path meets the path of the sun and also roughly of
most other planets. Thus the nodes are lunar. Also
the nodes are places where two things meet, hence
they are about the numbers 1 and 2. At birth, the
unit of mother and child becomes two individuals.
For the child, that sudden experience of opposites
(soft/hard, wet/dry, hot/cold, in/out, me/world)
becomes deeply connected to the mother. Hence the
connection between 2 and moon.
But does the above really say much about the nodes?
Is not more so that it says some things about moon,
mother, the number 2, the 2nd house, etc.? There
are similar ways in which the nodes can be connected
to the father: The child recognizes in the father
a part of him-/herself that was there before birth
and is now still there. That restores some hopes
into a continuity (unity, 1) of the world, into a
reliable unity between 2 people. Or take the cow and
the grass above -- the energy that makes that cycle
work is ultimately the light of the sun that drives
the photosynthesis in the grass. But does that not
again rather say something about father, sun, the
numbers 1 and 2 than about the nodes?
The nodes are seen as mouth and anus of a celestial
dragon that consists of 8 parts. The symbolism of
the number 8 leads to the transformation of earth
(fire-earth-water: 1+4+3=8), to Uranus, the symbol
for infinity, which ressembles a sketch of a fish,
which leads to the two perpendicular fish in the
constellation of Pisces, forming an 8x8 matrix
(mother), related to chess and the I Ching etc.
But does that mean that nodes are only about the
transformation of the element earth? Not really,
because people also drink (water), breathe (air)
and food contains energy (fire). And they do not
only produce earth, but also speak (air) etc.
In essence, the nodes are no things, they do not
have any attributes. Twisting things around --
like a Moebius tape -- anything that comes into
contact with the nodes is transformed and related
in interesting and deep ways to other things.
Beep wrote:
: >> I don't know which book you have, but the one I have is "Horoscopes of
: >> the Western Hemisphere" by Marc Penfield, 1984 edition, and it has
: >> California with data of September 9, 1850, 9:41 am PST.
: >
: >Thanks! Does it say how they arrived at the time?
:
: It just says "rectifed from sources which stated the President signed
: the Bill of Admission shortly before he went to lunch"
:
: > !
Where did he have lunch ? :)
(No, not which restaurant -- which city! Washington DC ?
Would have been about 12:41 pm there, which sounds more
like lunch time to me... Sag rising, conjunct Cheiron and
Orcus (opp. Quaoar), and conjunct fixed star Antares...)
Here's another crucial event for California, the one that
really got things rolling there...
: In January of 1848, James Marshall had a work crew camped on the American
: River at Coloma near Sacramento. The crew was building a saw mill for John
: Sutter. On the cold, clear morning of January 24, Marshall found a few tiny
: gold nuggets. Thus began one of the largest human migrations in history as
: a half-million people from around the world descended upon California in
: search of instant wealth.
http://ceres.ca.gov/ceres/calweb/geology/goldrush.html
: The Gold Rush prompted considerable development in California. Non-Native
: American population increased dramatically; by some accounts, some 70,000
: Forty-Niners arrived in California during 1849 alone, more than tripling the
: non-Native American population. The vast majority of these immigrants were
: Americans, and pressure grew for better communications and political
: connections to the rest of the United States, leading to statehood for
: California on September 9, 1850 in the Compromise of 1850 as the 31st State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Gold_Rush
Neptune...
)o+
SeaGtGruff@aol.com wrote:
: > Beep wrote:
: >
: > > ...that's fine. There are a lot of places on the net where people
: > > would get irritated at such. Sci.skeptic, for example. Or
: > > alt.astrology.
: > >
: > > But if not here, then where?
: > >
: > > Let me know :)
: > >
: > >
: > > --
: > > beep at west dot net
: > > Blog: http://beepbeep.livejournal.com
: > > --
: >
: > Discussing personal transits is A-OK here.
: >
: > It's also OK to encourage being responsible for one's self... at least,
: > as much as the universe will allow! :)
: >
: > Believing that astrology (or genetics, or anything else) is in control
: > of our lives is selling ourselves short.
: >
: > On the other hand, believing that we're in complete control of
: > ourselves and our lives is selling the universe short.
: >
: > The truth lies somewhere in between, I think. The trick is to strike a
: > balance-- and most especially, to become aware of the factors which
: > influence us, and then to figure out a way to rise above those
: > influences so that we aren't controlled by them, if that's possible.
I agree.
I am tempted to also see this in light of the elements: The two female
elements Water and Earth are heavier and more passive than the two male
ones (Fire and Air). In my experience, women more often than men tend to
view transits as "fated", taking a rather passive stance towards them
and hoping that they (the women, not the transits) will be heavy enough
to remain essentially in place once the transit is over, like a strongly
built house in a hurricane.
Men, in contrast, have in my experience more the attitidue of ignoring
transits, of feeling sort of "above them", flying high above the ground,
not so much disturbed by what is going on down below.
Consequently, tendentially women tend to overestimate the influence of
transits, while men tend to underestimate the influence of them. Again,
I guess the best approach would usually be somewhere in between...
Or something like that.
)o+
Usenet
In my view and experience, usenet is a very strange place. One
could argue that this is mainly because it is text only and is
a global network, which leeds to lots of misunderstandings...
But even non-english speaking usenet groups are usually similar,
while other online forums that I have seen are different, are
quite a bit more like discussions in ordinary, real life.
Thus I suspect the secret of usenet to be at least partially in
the moment it was born...
I have not been able to find any specific date. All I could find
essentially boils down to this:
: Usenet came into being in late 1979, shortly after the release of V7
: Unix with UUCP. Two Duke University grad students in North Carolina,
: Tom Truscott and Jim Ellis, thought of hooking computers together to
: exchange information with the Unix community. Steve Bellovin, a grad
: student at the University of North Carolina, put together the first
: version of the news software using shell scripts and installed it on
: the first two sites: "unc" and "duke." At the beginning of 1980 the
: network consisted of those two sites and "phs" (another machine at
: Duke), and was described at the January Usenix conference. Steve
: Bellovin later rewrote the scripts into C programs, but they were never
: released beyond "unc" and "duke."
Source: http://news.interbulletin.com/usenet_his.html
Since they apparently pulled things together quite quickly and in an
improvised fashion (shell scripts, no compiled C code), I suspect
something sagittarian, maybe most likely the sun in Sagittarius...
The northern lunar node is in early Virgo--independently of the exact
founding date. Structure and order have often been an issue in usenet;
there seems to always chaos lurking and threatening to take over, or
maybe that is just my perception of it ?
Anybody with more info or guesses as to the nature and birth data of
usenet ?
)o+
--
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea--massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
-- Eugene Spafford
"You need two things on Usenet--a civil tongue and a thick skin."
-- Steve Dorner
Source for these quotes: http://www.smfr.org/mtnw/docs/Usenet.html
Jyeshta wrote:
: On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 11:15:15 -0500, "chompergirl"
: <cvfay@optonline.net> wrote:
:
: >Speaking of email - I don't know how to email you myself. I tried to
: >post an apology for
: >the post that I think offended you last night (on personal
: >responsiblity) but it was rejected. First time that's happened to me.
: >Said it was "off topic" but it really wasn't. I talked about my issues
: >with Capricorns, in any case. Hope this one gets posted!
:
: Hi Chompergirl,
:
: There's is no way to explain how a post of yours got rejected because
: you are on preapprove - the moderators never even see your posts until
: they make it to the newsgroup. I am so sorry - the Robomoderator must
: be hiccupping or something.
Does anybody know the birth data of the Robomoderator program? I remember
reading in old archived posts that it was at moments quite heavily attacked
for being too restrictive and it also still has the peculiar bug to add a
">" to any line that starts with "From", like:
>From (I typed "From", but will read ">From")...
Could be interesting to look at the Robomoderator's transits...
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: I'm sorry - I misunderstood! You meant the Robomoderator for
: Readystump, not just for this group. I'm sorry for my confusion.
No problem. Seems the first post that carried the word "STUMP" in its
headers was most likely 14 May 1996 to soc.culture.russian.moderated
(the post only has a posting date, but no posting time, because it is
in an older MIME format). After the word "STUMP" is the version 1.1,
which is the oldest one mentioned in the version history if you
download the current version of the STUMP Robomoderator (2.2). Older
posts to that newsgroup carry already headers that point to the site
algebra.com, though, so that maybe a pre-release version of STUMP
(maybe without that name) was in use earlier...
Here's a link to the post:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.russian.moderated/msg/ad126fb113f45ada?dmode=source
Robomoderator home page:
http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/stump/
Interesting that the Robomoderator is just about a month older than
me in usenet--my first post ever was sometime in June 1996...
)o+
'Thenie wrote:
: Have you considered looking at the natal charts, progressions, and transits
: for the individuals involved (Tom Truscott, Jim Ellis, and Steve Bellovin)
: to see if there is any clue there?
Yeah, they seem to be just as elusive as usenet...
I searched quite a bit a couple of years ago. Tried again
quickly just now. All I could find was that Jim Ellis died
in 2001 and probably could find a date for that. But does
not feel necessary for me to start an investigation from
there now...
Certainly something sagittarian about usenet; I am feeling
already now like rather letting it be again...
)o+
WW wrote:
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:hermes-51599D.11001126072006@news.bluewin.ch...
> > Beep wrote:
> > : >> I don't know which book you have, but the one I have is "Horoscopes
> > of
> > : >> the Western Hemisphere" by Marc Penfield, 1984 edition, and it has
> > : >> California with data of September 9, 1850, 9:41 am PST.
> > : >
> > : >Thanks! Does it say how they arrived at the time?
> > :
> > : It just says "rectifed from sources which stated the President signed
> > : the Bill of Admission shortly before he went to lunch"
> > :
> > : > !
> >
> > Where did he have lunch ? :)
>
> lol! Duh. I just put Sacramento, like an idiot. But the Bill of Admission
> was signed at the capitol in DC.
> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1850 )
> "Another main issue was California's statehood. Settlers who had flocked to
> California after the discovery of gold in 1848 adopted an antislavery state
> constitution on the 13 October [1849], and applied for admission into the
> Union as a free state. The admission of California would disturb the
> longtime balance between free and slave states in the Senate. The question
> was whether to accept California's admission as a free state or divide
> California into two states with a free state in the north and a slave state
> in the south.(later on, dividing the state was ruled out because southern
> California's environment is unsuitable to grow crops that were grown by the
> plantation owners in the south)."
>
>
> And you're right, it would put the time at 12:41 PM, much more like lunch
> time. And that puts the Virgo Jupiter on the IC. Interesting, given that
> California is a major "bread basket," leading the nation in production of
> vegetables, etc.
Looks like you got the chart for 41 minutes past midnite.
Watch out, Mercury is still retrograde... ;)
The chart I calculate (41 minutes past noon local time in
Washington DC) has Virgo conjunct the MC and the ascendent
in Sagittarius (with the mentioned objects).
Strong focus on that point Virgo/Libra in the middle of the
zodiac anyway...
> Look at this: http://www.beachcalifornia.com/california-food-facts.html
>
> And the asc would be Cancer and the MC Pisces, and of course, when you think
> of Cali, you think of the beautiful beaches (MO LIB). Interesting that
> Neptune is in the 9th in light of that, too. In my experience, people who
> have never been here think Cali is just one big gorgeous beach. The people I
> met in Virginia and in North Carolina who've never been out west have this
> fantasy of what it must be like. They'd get this dreamy kind of look in
> their eyes and wanted us to tell them about it. They also think Califonians
> are crazy with the actor Governor and the trends and fads we start (UR, PL
> conjunct in Aries in 10th?). ;-D Interesting. I'll have to look at major
> events in light of transits to that chart. Any time you're dealing with the
> chart of a state or whatever it's very speculative, but lots of fun, no? ;-)
>
> >
> > (No, not which restaurant -- which city! Washington DC ?
> > Would have been about 12:41 pm there, which sounds more
> > like lunch time to me... Sag rising, conjunct Cheiron and
> > Orcus (opp. Quaoar), and conjunct fixed star Antares...)
> >
> > Here's another crucial event for California, the one that
> > really got things rolling there...
> >
> > : In January of 1848, James Marshall had a work crew camped on the
> > American
> > : River at Coloma near Sacramento. The crew was building a saw mill for
> > John
> > : Sutter. On the cold, clear morning of January 24, Marshall found a few
> > tiny
> > : gold nuggets. Thus began one of the largest human migrations in history
> > as
> > : a half-million people from around the world descended upon California in
> > : search of instant wealth.
> > http://ceres.ca.gov/ceres/calweb/geology/goldrush.html
>
> >
> > : The Gold Rush prompted considerable development in California.
> > Non-Native
> > : American population increased dramatically; by some accounts, some
> > 70,000
> > : Forty-Niners arrived in California during 1849 alone, more than tripling
> > the
> > : non-Native American population. The vast majority of these immigrants
> > were
> > : Americans, and pressure grew for better communications and political
> > : connections to the rest of the United States, leading to statehood for
> > : California on September 9, 1850 in the Compromise of 1850 as the 31st
> > State.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Gold_Rush
> >
>
> Oh, that's great stuff! Thanks for posting. I suppose the gold in Cali could
> be associated with Jupiter on the IC, too (buried treasure). NN (very
> fortunate point) and POF are in the 2nd house in that chart, as well, and
> Cali is quite rich compared to many other states.
Now I am confused... The NN is at about 2 Libra (again in the middle
of the zodiac), but something like in the 8th house (depending a bit
on what exactly "early morning" means).
)o+
Pedantus wrote:
: hermes@exactphilosophy.net wrote:
:
: [..]
:
: > Possible caveat: Liz Greene is an astrologer, so it is possible
: > in this case that she consciously and purposely made these cover
: > illustrations reflect her own birth chart.
: [..]
:
: No, she is apparently like all the other know-it-all's in the major
: arcana of performing professionals, immune to the notion that the
: emperor(-ess) could be caught strutting in invisible clothes.
She has the sun in Virgo conjunct the MC. That paired with Saturn
in Leo makes it a bit difficult to protect the self while still
publishing interesting things...
Welcome to California!
That is not to say that I do not see your point. Her generation,
including herself, has almost completely lost the ability to learn
and see what others do -- at least it often seems to me. Looks like
they apparently only see their own creations and stick to them,
excluding just about anything else from their vision. Is a bit like
Apple's "not invented here syndrome" of the 90s.
They seem to be very much in love with their grandiose attempts to
integrate astrology back into society. First came the creation of
lots of institutes that teach astrology and conferences. Now these
institutes apparently are becoming gradually integrated into normal
universities. But I cannot help being reminded of "cargo cult".
After all, Bath Spa University, for example, is where Neptune was
discovered.
Here is Feynman's famous article about "Cargo Cult Science". There
is still today an amazing amount of cargo cult not only in astrology,
but also in established science:
http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html
Robert Hand's recent article called "Towards A Post Modern Astrology",
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_postmodern_e.htm appears to be a bit
like icing on that cake. He proposes, maybe I am exaggerating a bit
here, to create sort of an elite of astrologers, I assume in his mind
that would essentially be the current "major arcana" and proposed to
create more or less closed club conferences and to have these chosen
people make the first contact with the scientific world.
What nonsense! :)
I am a physicist. When I want to scientifically investigate, I want
to talk mainly to people who do astrology every day, to people who
have the practical experience of having seen many thousand charts
and talked to the people who where born under these charts. I want
experience first hand. Sure, talking to the "major arcana" will also
be interesting, but only for selected topics and not with the highest
priority. Astrologers, in general, and that includes almost all of
the "major arcana" are not very technical people. Compared to what
scientists do every day, they lack a lot. In other words, although
they do have their virtues, being the ones who can bring astrology
back to science is not their best.
Fortunately, Robert Hand makes also a strong point for making more
concrete and specific statements in astrology, for example:
: Twentieth century astrology should be kept in so far as it works, makes sense
: and is clear enough to tell if it is working. To illustrate what I mean by
: "clear enough" (or rather not clear enough) here is a style of prediction
: (admittedly an absurd one) that illustrates the problem: "In the next year,
: events will happen." Now you may laugh, but I have heard astrological
: predictions made that were just about that "clear."
There you have it: Virgo. All that craziness, schizophrenia, the
world where anything that anybody ever does or says is never just
OK, but where there are just different shades of wrong...
Welcome to California! :)
Here's the passage from Odysseus return to Ithaca:
: At the head of this harbour there is a large olive tree, and at no great distance
: a fine overarching cavern sacred to the nymphs who are called Naiads. There are
: mixing bowls within it and wine-jars of stone, and the bees hive there. Moreover,
: there are great looms of stone on which the nymphs weave their robes of sea purple
: - very curious to see - and at all times there is water within it. It has two
: entrances, one facing North by which mortals can go down into the cave, while the
: other comes from the South and is more mysterious; mortals cannot possibly get in
: by it, it is the way taken by the gods.
Athena won Athens in a contest against Poseidon. He thrust his trident
into the ground where a well of sea water gushed out, while Athena
planted an olive tree besides the well. Athena was born from the head
of Zeus (<-> head of the harbour). What would Freud relate the harbour
to ? What would he relate the olives to ? I remember a translation of
this part of the odyssey that called the olive tree "thin leaved".
Astrology, trapped between immediate reality and illusions...
You know whatever you may say about these major arcana in real life
and not matter how impossible they may be in direct encounters, they
did provide some special stuff to the collective. My discoveries about
the zodiac would not have been possible without Liz Greene's accurate
and deep descriptions of the signs of the zodiac, especially in "The
Astrology of Fate" (and also in a partial german translation of "Star
Signs for Lovers", which I read first).
Or something like that...
(Neptune is retrograde and is again getting a bit more into opposition
with my sun, but won't get there any more this time. Not that something
like that could have any impact on a real man, though. Or what?* ;)
)o+
--
* Oh yeah, the "or what" category. Reminds me of the movie "Into the
Night" with Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Pfeifer, in LA, with title
music by B.B. King... Just illusions... :)
I wrote:
[...]
I hope that post was crazy / californian enough now... ;)
Currently NN conjunct nCheiron (and still nSaturn). These
two are not likely the most unrestricted outlets for
Dyonisus's crazes. Or maybe I am underestimating nLilith
at 14 Pisces, conjunct tUranus, both at a quincunx to my
natal sun in Leo and to CA's NN -- and to that CZ woman
who spurred my initial interest into astrology. :)
What will the Prague verdict about the planetary status
of "Xena" be ? Will there be a verdict ? The IAU (Intl.
Astronomical Union) has announced to publish a definition
of what is a planet in September 2006 (after the IAU's
general assembly in August in Prague):
http://www.astronomy2006.com
http://www.iau.org/STATUS_OF_PLUTO.238.0.html
http://www.iau.org/TRANS-NEPTUNIAN_OBJECT_2003_UB.324.0.html
So September again, the month the Athenians defeated the
persian invasion, California, 9/11, ... Or maybe it will
take even a bit longer again ?
'nuff announced...
Humble messenger of Zeus...
)o+
> Pedantus wrote:
> : hermes@exactphilosophy.net wrote:
> :
> : [..]
> :
> : > Possible caveat: Liz Greene is an astrologer, so it is possible
> : > in this case that she consciously and purposely made these cover
> : > illustrations reflect her own birth chart.
> : [..]
> :
> : No, she is apparently like all the other know-it-all's in the major
> : arcana of performing professionals, immune to the notion that the
> : emperor(-ess) could be caught strutting in invisible clothes.
>
> She has the sun in Virgo conjunct the MC. That paired with Saturn
> in Leo makes it a bit difficult to protect the self while still
> publishing interesting things...
>
> Welcome to California!
>
> That is not to say that I do not see your point. Her generation,
> including herself, has almost completely lost the ability to learn
> and see what others do -- at least it often seems to me. Looks like
> they apparently only see their own creations and stick to them,
> excluding just about anything else from their vision. Is a bit like
> Apple's "not invented here syndrome" of the 90s.
>
> They seem to be very much in love with their grandiose attempts to
> integrate astrology back into society. First came the creation of
> lots of institutes that teach astrology and conferences. Now these
> institutes apparently are becoming gradually integrated into normal
> universities. But I cannot help being reminded of "cargo cult".
> After all, Bath Spa University, for example, is where Neptune was
> discovered.
>
> Here is Feynman's famous article about "Cargo Cult Science". There
> is still today an amazing amount of cargo cult not only in astrology,
> but also in established science:
>
> http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html
>
> Robert Hand's recent article called "Towards A Post Modern Astrology",
> http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_postmodern_e.htm appears to be a bit
> like icing on that cake. He proposes, maybe I am exaggerating a bit
> here, to create sort of an elite of astrologers, I assume in his mind
> that would essentially be the current "major arcana" and proposed to
> create more or less closed club conferences and to have these chosen
> people make the first contact with the scientific world.
>
> What nonsense! :)
>
> I am a physicist. When I want to scientifically investigate, I want
> to talk mainly to people who do astrology every day, to people who
> have the practical experience of having seen many thousand charts
> and talked to the people who where born under these charts. I want
> experience first hand. Sure, talking to the "major arcana" will also
> be interesting, but only for selected topics and not with the highest
> priority. Astrologers, in general, and that includes almost all of
> the "major arcana" are not very technical people. Compared to what
> scientists do every day, they lack a lot. In other words, although
> they do have their virtues, being the ones who can bring astrology
> back to science is not their best.
>
> Fortunately, Robert Hand makes also a strong point for making more
> concrete and specific statements in astrology, for example:
>
> : Twentieth century astrology should be kept in so far as it works, makes sense
> : and is clear enough to tell if it is working. To illustrate what I mean by
> : "clear enough" (or rather not clear enough) here is a style of prediction
> : (admittedly an absurd one) that illustrates the problem: "In the next year,
> : events will happen." Now you may laugh, but I have heard astrological
> : predictions made that were just about that "clear."
>
> There you have it: Virgo. All that craziness, schizophrenia, the
> world where anything that anybody ever does or says is never just
> OK, but where there are just different shades of wrong...
>
> Welcome to California! :)
>
> Here's the passage from Odysseus return to Ithaca:
> : At the head of this harbour there is a large olive tree, and at no great distance
> : a fine overarching cavern sacred to the nymphs who are called Naiads. There are
> : mixing bowls within it and wine-jars of stone, and the bees hive there. Moreover,
> : there are great looms of stone on which the nymphs weave their robes of sea purple
> : - very curious to see - and at all times there is water within it. It has two
> : entrances, one facing North by which mortals can go down into the cave, while the
> : other comes from the South and is more mysterious; mortals cannot possibly get in
> : by it, it is the way taken by the gods.
>
> Athena won Athens in a contest against Poseidon. He thrust his trident
> into the ground where a well of sea water gushed out, while Athena
> planted an olive tree besides the well. Athena was born from the head
> of Zeus (<-> head of the harbour). What would Freud relate the harbour
> to ? What would he relate the olives to ? I remember a translation of
> this part of the odyssey that called the olive tree "thin leaved".
>
> Astrology, trapped between immediate reality and illusions...
>
> You know whatever you may say about these major arcana in real life
> and not matter how impossible they may be in direct encounters, they
> did provide some special stuff to the collective. My discoveries about
> the zodiac would not have been possible without Liz Greene's accurate
> and deep descriptions of the signs of the zodiac, especially in "The
> Astrology of Fate" (and also in a partial german translation of "Star
> Signs for Lovers", which I read first).
>
> Or something like that...
>
> (Neptune is retrograde and is again getting a bit more into opposition
> with my sun, but won't get there any more this time. Not that something
> like that could have any impact on a real man, though. Or what?* ;)
>
> )o+
>
> --
> * Oh yeah, the "or what" category. Reminds me of the movie "Into the
> Night" with Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Pfeifer, in LA, with title
> music by B.B. King... Just illusions... :)
WW wrote:
: > Looks like you got the chart for 41 minutes past midnite.
: > Watch out, Mercury is still retrograde... ;)
: >
: lol! Dammit.
I'd blame it on the heat, too. :)
: Aw, well, it's all just rank guessing, anyway. ;-) Cali was
: there long before it became a state.
I agree. Maybe sometime I will have a look at that novel where
the name California is used for an island for the first time...
: > You know, I have a chart in my Kepler database that's supposed to be for
: > California (same date of 9/9/1850), and it is placed in San Jose, CA at 9:38
: > am Local Mean Time. Wonder why?
:)
Just a test...
dsfksdfakjfdsa mfdsa f fsd sdf fdsa fdsf d
sd fds fds afds afdsa fds.
--
Last autumn my relation with P. ended. Consequently
now also my relation with astrology and usenet has
essentially ended (since these are things that are
not really my bailiwick, but only of the relation).
I do not think that anybody will miss me that much;
that lies in the nature of usenet (and US culture).
My hands will be tied a bit, with Sedna (who has no
hands in the myth) at a long transit across my NN in
Taurus (cf. Kant's similar planet Neptune there).
Thus my site http://www.exactphilosophy.net will grow
only very slowly during the next few years, which is
fine.
Will make the site more beautiful and natural.
If I had been consequently piscean (I am thinking of
my Saturn there), I would not have written this but
just stopped to post without notice. Still felt it
to be safer and fairer in the end to do so.
Won't read nor post to usenet again ever... ;)
)o+
A few days ago, the International Astronomical Union (IAU)
has published a formal proposal for the definition of what
is a planet; the general assembly of the IAU will vote on
it Thursday (24 August 2006).
Here is first an overview of the proposal, with links, then
my opinion (or maybe just the obvious ;), and finally some
considerations that are directly on-topic here.
For people who found this by googling: I am a physicist (PhD)
from Switzerland, but not in any way involved professionally
with astronomy (i.e. independent of the IAU and/or any other
scientists who often make their opinions about this subject
public or are asked by the public to do so).
Overview
The formal draft resolution for the definition of a planet:
[1] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_resolution.html
Crucial excerpt:
: (1) A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass
: for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it
: assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and
: (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a
: satellite of a planet.
Press release and FAQ from the IAU:
[2] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html
[3] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_Q_A.html
Comments by Mike Brown, one of the discoverers of "Xena":
[4] http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/
Plus his overview of the many objects ("53 and counting")
that would likely be considered planets in the near future:
[5] http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/howmanplanets.html
The draft resolution [1] of the IAU states two major criteria
for an object in space to be a planet. Obviously, one of them
is that it must orbit a star (and not another planet). There
is a new detail issue to that, but let me first focus on the
other major criterion. It is:
A planet must have become "round" due to its own weight. Do
not take my wording "round" too literally: Objects that spin
relatively quickly around their own axes are not spheres, but
would still be considered to be planets according to [1].
If you have a piece of rock with a diameter of, say, 10 km or
10 miles, it will be the "shape of a rock", but if you start
with a larger rock of, say, 2000 km diameter, its own gravity
will be strong enough to deform it essentially to a sphere.
Attached to the formal definition of a planet is a process by
which the IAU would officially declare objects as planets. As
the press release [2] shows, the IAU would initially be willing
to consider 3 more objects as planets: asteroid Ceres, and the
two Kuiper Belt Objects Charon (currently considered Pluto's
moon) and "Xena" (2003 UB313).
However, as Mike Brown points out in [4] and [5], it will not
stay at that. It is obvious to scientists that many more objects
in the solar system are very likely round, and that quite a few
more of these will follow in the years to come. Quote from [5]:
: For now, the number of known objects in the solar system which
: are likely to be round is 53, with the number jumping to 80 when
: the objects from our survey are announced, and to more than 200
: when the Kuiper belt is fully surveyed.
In footnote 2 of the draft resolution [1] is a new criterion
that distinguishes a planet with a moon from a "double planet":
: For two or more objects comprising a multiple object system,
: the primary object is designated a planet if it independently
: satisfies the conditions above. A secondary object satisfying
: these conditions is also designated a planet if the system
: barycentre resides outside the primary. Secondary objects not
: satisfying these criteria are "satellites". Under this definition,
: Pluto's companion Charon is a planet, making Pluto-Charon a
: double planet.
Let me try to explain this criterion with the example of earth
and moon. Both earth and moon are roughly spherical, and rotate
around the sun. Thus both major criteria for being a planet
according to the IAU's proposal are satisfied. But earth and
moon also rotate around each other. If earth and moon were the
same size, they would rotate around a common center that would
in the middle between them. In that case, earth and moon would
form a double planet and would each be considered planets by
the definition. Now, in reality earth is quite a bit heavier
than the moon, so that the center that they rotate around is not
in the middle, but much closer to earth than to the moon. The
center is below the surface of earth, which is why (according
to the definition above), the moon is a moon and not a planet.
(It is worthwhile to note that if the moon had a 10% larger
diameter, it would be a planet by this definition!)
Pluto's companion Charon is about half the diameter of Pluto
and they rotate around a center that is outside of both of
them. Thus according to the IAU's definition, Charon would
become a planet and Pluto/Charon a double planet.
Opinion (or The Obvious)
The structure of the solar system is pretty clear. To see it,
it is maybe most simple to zoom into it from far away. What
you see first, is the sun.
Then you zoom in further and start to see Jupiter, then Saturn
and Uranus and Neptune. You zoom in further and see Earth,
Venus, Mars and Mercury, and the largest moons (like Titan).
Eventually you also see some of the objects of the Kuiper Belt
like Pluto and "Xena" and more, as well as the major objects
of the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter (Ceres etc.).
And if you zoom in further, you see more small stuff. (And
further out, you see Sedna and likely more objects).
Thus effectively the solar system looks like this:
- sun
- Jupiter and Saturn, Uranus and Neptune (gas giant planets)
- Earth, Venus, Mars, Mercury (earthlike planets)
- Asteroid Belt (largest member asteroid Ceres)
- Kuiper Belt (largest members Pluto and "Xena")
- some moons
- maybe some more belts further out
- small things
Let me try to illustrate with an analogy what the proposal of
the IAU effectively amounts to. It is always difficult to find
a good analogy, but I think the following one is quite good.
Everybody knows what an apple is. Also everybody knows plums,
apricots and cherries. Now, suppose there is an "International
Fruit Union" (IFU) who for some reason decides that a formal
definition of what is an apple is needed. They form committees
and eventually come up with the following definition:
: An apple is a fruit that (a) is roughly round and (b) grows
: on a tree.
By this definition, apples, plums, apricots and cherries would
be apples, while, say grapes would not be apples (round, but
do not grow on trees). And, of course, pears and oranges would
be apples to.
There are two obvious reasons why such a definition would have
no impact. The first reason is that the definition defines a
lot more objects to be apples than are apples. The second reason
is that the new category, although maybe aesthetically a nice
one, is not very useful. What do you do with apples: essentially
you eat them (directly or on a cake) or make apple juice out of
them. What do you do with apricots: you eat them (directly or on
a cake) or you make marmalade out of them. There is very little
common use for these fruits (except that you can eat them raw,
which is essentially why they are called fruits, and maybe that
you can make some liquor out of them, like with anything that
contains sugar).
Now a quick remark about the "double planet" definition. There
is apparently an analogous definition for a "double star". So,
at first the proposal may seem reasonable. But, if you have two
stars circling around each other, no matter where the center is
(inside one of the stars or not), these two will still be stars,
they will be suns that produce their own light from nuclear
fusion inside them.
In contrast, the definition of a "double planet" does or does
not remove the attribute "planet" from one of the two objects
involved, based on whether the center they rotate around is one
of the two objects or not. Yet, that part of the proposal is
at least close enough to be possibly a wise definition.
Quick summary of this section: The current draft resolution is
likely to have very little impact in real life (to astronomers
and anybody else), independently of what the IAU members will
vote Thursday. The only chance for the IAU to have an influence
on the definition of a planet, would very likely be to draft a
new resolution that is closer to common use of the term "planet".
Current usage of the terms "planet", "gas giant", "asteroid",
etc., and the widespread agreement among astronomers that Pluto
is astronomically not a planet (but rather just a bigger object
in the Kuiper Belt) are sufficient for all current scientific
purposes and might even work better than expected in any concrete
case in other solar systems.
Signs of the Times (Astrology)
Currently Mars is in Virgo (conjunct my nPluto/nUranus) and
Mean Black Moon Lilith is also in Virgo (23*). The theme of
sorting things is clearly Virgo. Virgo is the end of the summer,
where the harvest is sorted out and stacked in. That is why I
think the "apple" analogy works quite well.
The word "apple" leads (besides to a CA based computer company;
CA's entry into the US was with the sun in Virgo) also to one
of the possible origins of the name of the god Apollon, the
Greek sun god. In my view, the definition of a planet is quite
a bit a Leo issue (sign ruled by the sun; Saturn now in Leo,
thus effort is needed to get establish some Leo).
Aries: "I am a chunk of rock/ice/gas and circle the sun.
Therefore I am a planet. What you say that I am too
little to be a planet?!! I demand to be a planet!
Look how special I am, I am the only rock in the
solar system that has <fill in your attributes here>."
Sagittarius: "I am Jupiter, I am the biggest object in the
solar system. Lets call all or some of the others
planets too." (Thinks: "Does not matter, there are
so many different criteria and none will be really
fundamental, and in any case I will be the biggest
object in the solar system. And I will be the one
that protects Earth's life from asteroids by either
catching or deviating them.") (Forgets: "Hey, the
biggest object in the solar system is the sun and
it also has a major role in making life on Earth
possible.")
Leo: "Very difficult to say what exactly is a planet. A planet
should circle the sun (and not a planet) and it should be
a distinctive object of a certain weight. The gas giants
are planets, so are the 4 rocky objects Mercury to Mars,
even though Mercury is a bit smaller than the largest moon
in the solar system, Titan. Mercury is very heavy, though.
Ceres is not a planet, is not distinctive enough; appeared
to be so when it was discovered, but as soon as people got
over their mistake, things became more natural again. The
same is true for Pluto. When initially discovered, believed
to be as large as Earth, but now known to be part of several,
Pluto will eventually no longer be considered a planet. It
appears, though, that people are still very attached to Pluto
as a planet, so the current proposal will do least harm, it
will officially keep Pluto a planet while effectively it will
no longer be part of the same group as the big eight. So, maybe
it would really be wisest to adopt the IAU proposal."
Although the proposal was apparently not worked out in Prague,
it was announced there and will be voted on there (the sun will
be just about in Virgo then). That adds some of the "Prague
Fringe" to the proposal. One of the properties of Prague and
Czech/-oslovakia has been to propose things before their time.
Like Reformation (Jan Hus, executed at Constance in 1415) or
the idea of a "communism with a human face" in the 1960s (it
is likely that future post-modern communities will be somewhere
in between extreme capitalism and extreme communism/fascism,
in terms of individual freedom; so the term will likely be
considered quite accurate a few hundred years from now.)
Astrologically, this is related to Libra, a sign that I would
also associate quite a bit with Apollon (one of the crucial
gods of the Greeks, which I see also as a counterpoint to the
Age of Aries, like Islam as counterpoint to the Age of Pisces).
Libra is, in my elementary model of the star signs, balancing
the elements Fire (abundant in Gemini) and Water (abundant in
Aquarius), while evolving towards Aquarius (getting older). In
that sense, the IAU proposal is momentarily quite a bit balanced
and harmonic (Venus rules Libra), since it keeps Pluto and only
adds 3 more planets, but eventually will grow into a post-modern
zoo of something like a 100 planets or more, out of which
everybody will then be able to select his or her own favorites
at will.
While the contemporary public will very likely not be happy
with hundreds of planets, the public in a couple of hundred
years might be a lot more at ease with it.
If you have time machines then, drop me an e-mail :)
As usual, a lot more could have been said. The predictions
of astrology and the ways to apply them are so rich that at
least this aspect of astrology is an art, although its simple
building blocks are certainly accessible to scientific proof.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
A few days ago, the International Astronomical Union (IAU)
has published a formal proposal for the definition of what
is a planet; the general assembly of the IAU will vote on
it Thursday (24 August 2006).
Here is first an overview of the proposal, with links, then
my opinion (or maybe just the obvious ;), and finally some
considerations that are directly on-topic here.
For people who found this by googling: I am a physicist (PhD)
from Switzerland, but not in any way involved professionally
with astronomy (i.e. independent of the IAU and/or any other
scientists who often make their opinions about this subject
public or are asked by the public to do so).
Overview
The formal draft resolution for the definition of a planet:
[1] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_resolution.html
Crucial excerpt:
: (1) A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass
: for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it
: assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and
: (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a
: satellite of a planet.
Press release and FAQ from the IAU:
[2] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html
[3] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_Q_A.html
Comments by Mike Brown, one of the discoverers of "Xena":
[4] http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/
Plus his overview of the many objects ("53 and counting")
that would likely be considered planets in the near future:
[5] http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/howmanplanets.html
The draft resolution [1] of the IAU states two major criteria
for an object in space to be a planet. Obviously, one of them
is that it must orbit a star (and not another planet). There
is a new detail issue to that, but let me first focus on the
other major criterion. It is:
A planet must have become "round" due to its own weight. Do
not take my wording "round" too literally: Objects that spin
relatively quickly around their own axes are not spheres, but
would still be considered to be planets according to [1].
If you have a piece of rock with a diameter of, say, 10 km or
10 miles, it will be the "shape of a rock", but if you start
with a larger rock of, say, 2000 km diameter, its own gravity
will be strong enough to deform it essentially to a sphere.
Attached to the formal definition of a planet is a process by
which the IAU would officially declare objects as planets. As
the press release [2] shows, the IAU would initially be willing
to consider 3 more objects as planets: asteroid Ceres, and the
two Kuiper Belt Objects Charon (currently considered Pluto's
moon) and "Xena" (2003 UB313).
However, as Mike Brown points out in [4] and [5], it will not
stay at that. It is obvious to scientists that many more objects
in the solar system are very likely round, and that quite a few
more of these will follow in the years to come. Quote from [5]:
: For now, the number of known objects in the solar system which
: are likely to be round is 53, with the number jumping to 80 when
: the objects from our survey are announced, and to more than 200
: when the Kuiper belt is fully surveyed.
In footnote 2 of the draft resolution [1] is a new criterion
that distinguishes a planet with a moon from a "double planet":
: For two or more objects comprising a multiple object system,
: the primary object is designated a planet if it independently
: satisfies the conditions above. A secondary object satisfying
: these conditions is also designated a planet if the system
: barycentre resides outside the primary. Secondary objects not
: satisfying these criteria are "satellites". Under this definition,
: Pluto's companion Charon is a planet, making Pluto-Charon a
: double planet.
Let me try to explain this criterion with the example of earth
and moon. Both earth and moon are roughly spherical, and rotate
around the sun. Thus both major criteria for being a planet
according to the IAU's proposal are satisfied. But earth and
moon also rotate around each other. If earth and moon were the
same size, they would rotate around a common center that would
in the middle between them. In that case, earth and moon would
form a double planet and would each be considered planets by
the definition. Now, in reality earth is quite a bit heavier
than the moon, so that the center that they rotate around is not
in the middle, but much closer to earth than to the moon. The
center is below the surface of earth, which is why (according
to the definition above), the moon is a moon and not a planet.
(It is worthwhile to note that if the moon had a 10% larger
diameter, it would be a planet by this definition!)
Pluto's companion Charon is about half the diameter of Pluto
and they rotate around a center that is outside of both of
them. Thus according to the IAU's definition, Charon would
become a planet and Pluto/Charon a double planet.
Opinion (or The Obvious)
The structure of the solar system is pretty clear. To see it,
it is maybe most simple to zoom into it from far away. What
you see first, is the sun.
Then you zoom in further and start to see Jupiter, then Saturn
and Uranus and Neptune. You zoom in further and see Earth,
Venus, Mars and Mercury, and the largest moons (like Titan).
Eventually you also see some of the objects of the Kuiper Belt
like Pluto and "Xena" and more, as well as the major objects
of the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter (Ceres etc.).
And if you zoom in further, you see more small stuff. (And
further out, you see Sedna and likely more objects).
Thus effectively the solar system looks like this:
- sun
- Jupiter and Saturn, Uranus and Neptune (gas giant planets)
- Earth, Venus, Mars, Mercury (earthlike planets)
- Asteroid Belt (largest member asteroid Ceres)
- Kuiper Belt (largest members Pluto and "Xena")
- some moons
- maybe some more belts further out
- small things
Let me try to illustrate with an analogy what the proposal of
the IAU effectively amounts to. It is always difficult to find
a good analogy, but I think the following one is quite good.
Everybody knows what an apple is. Also everybody knows plums,
apricots and cherries. Now, suppose there is an "International
Fruit Union" (IFU) who for some reason decides that a formal
definition of what is an apple is needed. They form committees
and eventually come up with the following definition:
: An apple is a fruit that (a) is roughly round and (b) grows
: on a tree.
By this definition, apples, plums, apricots and cherries would
be apples, while, say grapes would not be apples (round, but
do not grow on trees). And, of course, pears and oranges would
be apples to.
There are two obvious reasons why such a definition would have
no impact. The first reason is that the definition defines a
lot more objects to be apples than are apples. The second reason
is that the new category, although maybe aesthetically a nice
one, is not very useful. What do you do with apples: essentially
you eat them (directly or on a cake) or make apple juice out of
them. What do you do with apricots: you eat them (directly or on
a cake) or you make marmalade out of them. There is very little
common use for these fruits (except that you can eat them raw,
which is essentially why they are called fruits, and maybe that
you can make some liquor out of them, like with anything that
contains sugar).
Now a quick remark about the "double planet" definition. There
is apparently an analogous definition for a "double star". So,
at first the proposal may seem reasonable. But, if you have two
stars circling around each other, no matter where the center is
(inside one of the stars or not), these two will still be stars,
they will be suns that produce their own light from nuclear
fusion inside them.
In contrast, the definition of a "double planet" does or does
not remove the attribute "planet" from one of the two objects
involved, based on whether the center they rotate around is one
of the two objects or not. Yet, that part of the proposal is
at least close enough to be possibly a wise definition.
Quick summary of this section: The current draft resolution is
likely to have very little impact in real life (to astronomers
and anybody else), independently of what the IAU members will
vote Thursday. The only chance for the IAU to have an influence
on the definition of a planet, would very likely be to draft a
new resolution that is closer to common use of the term "planet".
Current usage of the terms "planet", "gas giant", "asteroid",
etc., and the widespread agreement among astronomers that Pluto
is astronomically not a planet (but rather just a bigger object
in the Kuiper Belt) are sufficient for all current scientific
purposes and might even work better than expected in any concrete
case in other solar systems.
Signs of the Times (Astrology)
Currently Mars is in Virgo (conjunct my nPluto/nUranus) and
Mean Black Moon Lilith is also in Virgo (23*). The theme of
sorting things is clearly Virgo. Virgo is the end of the summer,
where the harvest is sorted out and stacked in. That is why I
think the "apple" analogy works quite well.
The word "apple" leads (besides to a CA based computer company;
CA's entry into the US was with the sun in Virgo) also to one
of the possible origins of the name of the god Apollon, the
Greek sun god. In my view, the definition of a planet is quite
a bit a Leo issue (sign ruled by the sun; Saturn now in Leo,
thus effort is needed to get establish some Leo).
Aries: "I am a chunk of rock/ice/gas and circle the sun.
Therefore I am a planet. What you say that I am too
little to be a planet?!! I demand to be a planet!
Look how special I am, I am the only rock in the
solar system that has <fill in your attributes here>."
Sagittarius: "I am Jupiter, I am the biggest object in the
solar system. Lets call all or some of the others
planets too." (Thinks: "Does not matter, there are
so many different criteria and none will be really
fundamental, and in any case I will be the biggest
object in the solar system. And I will be the one
that protects Earth's life from asteroids by either
catching or deviating them.") (Forgets: "Hey, the
biggest object in the solar system is the sun and
it also has a major role in making life on Earth
possible.")
Leo: "Very difficult to say what exactly is a planet. A planet
should circle the sun (and not a planet) and it should be
a distinctive object of a certain weight. The gas giants
are planets, so are the 4 rocky objects Mercury to Mars,
even though Mercury is a bit smaller than the largest moon
in the solar system, Titan. Mercury is very heavy, though.
Ceres is not a planet, is not distinctive enough; appeared
to be so when it was discovered, but as soon as people got
over their mistake, things became more natural again. The
same is true for Pluto. When initially discovered, believed
to be as large as Earth, but now known to be part of several,
Pluto will eventually no longer be considered a planet. It
appears, though, that people are still very attached to Pluto
as a planet, so the current proposal will do least harm, it
will officially keep Pluto a planet while effectively it will
no longer be part of the same group as the big eight. So, maybe
it would really be wisest to adopt the IAU proposal."
Although the proposal was apparently not worked out in Prague,
it was announced there and will be voted on there (the sun will
be just about in Virgo then). That adds some of the "Prague
Fringe" to the proposal. One of the properties of Prague and
Czech/-oslovakia has been to propose things before their time.
Like Reformation (Jan Hus, executed at Constance in 1415) or
the idea of a "communism with a human face" in the 1960s (it
is likely that future post-modern communities will be somewhere
in between extreme capitalism and extreme communism/fascism,
in terms of individual freedom; so the term will likely be
considered quite accurate a few hundred years from now.)
Astrologically, this is related to Libra, a sign that I would
also associate quite a bit with Apollon (one of the crucial
gods of the Greeks, which I see also as a counterpoint to the
Age of Aries, like Islam as counterpoint to the Age of Pisces).
Libra is, in my elementary model of the star signs, balancing
the elements Fire (abundant in Gemini) and Water (abundant in
Aquarius), while evolving towards Aquarius (getting older). In
that sense, the IAU proposal is momentarily quite a bit balanced
and harmonic (Venus rules Libra), since it keeps Pluto and only
adds 3 more planets, but eventually will grow into a post-modern
zoo of something like a 100 planets or more, out of which
everybody will then be able to select his or her own favorites
at will.
While the contemporary public will very likely not be happy
with hundreds of planets, the public in a couple of hundred
years might be a lot more at ease with it.
If you have time machines then, drop me an e-mail :)
As usual, a lot more could have been said. The predictions
of astrology and the ways to apply them are so rich that at
least this aspect of astrology is an art, although its simple
building blocks are certainly accessible to scientific proof.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
A few days ago, the International Astronomical Union (IAU)
has published a formal proposal for the definition of what
is a planet; the general assembly of the IAU will vote on
it Thursday (24 August 2006).
Here is first an overview of the proposal, with links, then
my opinion (or maybe just the obvious ;), and finally some
considerations that are directly on-topic here.
For people who found this by googling: I am a physicist (PhD)
from Switzerland, but not in any way involved professionally
with astronomy (i.e. independent of the IAU and/or any other
scientists who often make their opinions about this subject
public or are asked by the public to do so).
Overview
The formal draft resolution for the definition of a planet:
[1] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_resolution.html
Crucial excerpt:
: (1) A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass
: for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it
: assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and
: (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a
: satellite of a planet.
Press release and FAQ from the IAU:
[2] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html
[3] http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_Q_A.html
Comments by Mike Brown, one of the discoverers of "Xena":
[4] http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/
Plus his overview of the many objects ("53 and counting")
that would likely be considered planets in the near future:
[5] http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/howmanplanets.html
The draft resolution [1] of the IAU states two major criteria
for an object in space to be a planet. Obviously, one of them
is that it must orbit a star (and not another planet). There
is a new detail issue to that, but let me first focus on the
other major criterion. It is:
A planet must have become "round" due to its own weight. Do
not take my wording "round" too literally: Objects that spin
relatively quickly around their own axes are not spheres, but
would still be considered to be planets according to [1].
If you have a piece of rock with a diameter of, say, 10 km or
10 miles, it will be the "shape of a rock", but if you start
with a larger rock of, say, 2000 km diameter, its own gravity
will be strong enough to deform it essentially to a sphere.
Attached to the formal definition of a planet is a process by
which the IAU would officially declare objects as planets. As
the press release [2] shows, the IAU would initially be willing
to consider 3 more objects as planets: asteroid Ceres, and the
two Kuiper Belt Objects Charon (currently considered Pluto's
moon) and "Xena" (2003 UB313).
However, as Mike Brown points out in [4] and [5], it will not
stay at that. It is obvious to scientists that many more objects
in the solar system are very likely round, and that quite a few
more of these will follow in the years to come. Quote from [5]:
: For now, the number of known objects in the solar system which
: are likely to be round is 53, with the number jumping to 80 when
: the objects from our survey are announced, and to more than 200
: when the Kuiper belt is fully surveyed.
In footnote 2 of the draft resolution [1] is a new criterion
that distinguishes a planet with a moon from a "double planet":
: For two or more objects comprising a multiple object system,
: the primary object is designated a planet if it independently
: satisfies the conditions above. A secondary object satisfying
: these conditions is also designated a planet if the system
: barycentre resides outside the primary. Secondary objects not
: satisfying these criteria are "satellites". Under this definition,
: Pluto's companion Charon is a planet, making Pluto-Charon a
: double planet.
Let me try to explain this criterion with the example of earth
and moon. Both earth and moon are roughly spherical, and rotate
around the sun. Thus both major criteria for being a planet
according to the IAU's proposal are satisfied. But earth and
moon also rotate around each other. If earth and moon were the
same size, they would rotate around a common center that would
in the middle between them. In that case, earth and moon would
form a double planet and would each be considered planets by
the definition. Now, in reality earth is quite a bit heavier
than the moon, so that the center that they rotate around is not
in the middle, but much closer to earth than to the moon. The
center is below the surface of earth, which is why (according
to the definition above), the moon is a moon and not a planet.
(It is worthwhile to note that if the moon had a 10% larger
diameter, it would be a planet by this definition!)
Pluto's companion Charon is about half the diameter of Pluto
and they rotate around a center that is outside of both of
them. Thus according to the IAU's definition, Charon would
become a planet and Pluto/Charon a double planet.
Opinion (or The Obvious)
The structure of the solar system is pretty clear. To see it,
it is maybe most simple to zoom into it from far away. What
you see first, is the sun.
Then you zoom in further and start to see Jupiter, then Saturn
and Uranus and Neptune. You zoom in further and see Earth,
Venus, Mars and Mercury, and the largest moons (like Titan).
Eventually you also see some of the objects of the Kuiper Belt
like Pluto and "Xena" and more, as well as the major objects
of the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter (Ceres etc.).
And if you zoom in further, you see more small stuff. (And
further out, you see Sedna and likely more objects).
Thus effectively the solar system looks like this:
- sun
- Jupiter and Saturn, Uranus and Neptune (gas giant planets)
- Earth, Venus, Mars, Mercury (earthlike planets)
- Asteroid Belt (largest member asteroid Ceres)
- Kuiper Belt (largest members Pluto and "Xena")
- some moons
- maybe some more belts further out
- small things
Let me try to illustrate with an analogy what the proposal of
the IAU effectively amounts to. It is always difficult to find
a good analogy, but I think the following one is quite good.
Everybody knows what an apple is. Also everybody knows plums,
apricots and cherries. Now, suppose there is an "International
Fruit Union" (IFU) who for some reason decides that a formal
definition of what is an apple is needed. They form committees
and eventually come up with the following definition:
: An apple is a fruit that (a) is roughly round and (b) grows
: on a tree.
By this definition, apples, plums, apricots and cherries would
be apples, while, say grapes would not be apples (round, but
do not grow on trees). And, of course, pears and oranges would
be apples to.
There are two obvious reasons why such a definition would have
no impact. The first reason is that the definition defines a
lot more objects to be apples than are apples. The second reason
is that the new category, although maybe aesthetically a nice
one, is not very useful. What do you do with apples: essentially
you eat them (directly or on a cake) or make apple juice out of
them. What do you do with apricots: you eat them (directly or on
a cake) or you make marmalade out of them. There is very little
common use for these fruits (except that you can eat them raw,
which is essentially why they are called fruits, and maybe that
you can make some liquor out of them, like with anything that
contains sugar).
Now a quick remark about the "double planet" definition. There
is apparently an analogous definition for a "double star". So,
at first the proposal may seem reasonable. But, if you have two
stars circling around each other, no matter where the center is
(inside one of the stars or not), these two will still be stars,
they will be suns that produce their own light from nuclear
fusion inside them.
In contrast, the definition of a "double planet" does or does
not remove the attribute "planet" from one of the two objects
involved, based on whether the center they rotate around is one
of the two objects or not. Yet, that part of the proposal is
at least close enough to be possibly a wise definition.
Quick summary of this section: The current draft resolution is
likely to have very little impact in real life (to astronomers
and anybody else), independently of what the IAU members will
vote Thursday. The only chance for the IAU to have an influence
on the definition of a planet, would very likely be to draft a
new resolution that is closer to common use of the term "planet".
Current usage of the terms "planet", "gas giant", "asteroid",
etc., and the widespread agreement among astronomers that Pluto
is astronomically not a planet (but rather just a bigger object
in the Kuiper Belt) are sufficient for all current scientific
purposes and might even work better than expected in any concrete
case in other solar systems.
Signs of the Times (Astrology)
Currently Mars is in Virgo (conjunct my nPluto/nUranus) and
Mean Black Moon Lilith is also in Virgo (23*). The theme of
sorting things is clearly Virgo. Virgo is the end of the summer,
where the harvest is sorted out and stacked in. That is why I
think the "apple" analogy works quite well.
The word "apple" leads (besides to a CA based computer company;
CA's entry into the US was with the sun in Virgo) also to one
of the possible origins of the name of the god Apollon, the
Greek sun god. In my view, the definition of a planet is quite
a bit a Leo issue (sign ruled by the sun; Saturn now in Leo,
thus effort is needed to get establish some Leo).
Aries: "I am a chunk of rock/ice/gas and circle the sun.
Therefore I am a planet. What you say that I am too
little to be a planet?!! I demand to be a planet!
Look how special I am, I am the only rock in the
solar system that has <fill in your attributes here>."
Sagittarius: "I am Jupiter, I am the biggest object in the
solar system. Lets call all or some of the others
planets too." (Thinks: "Does not matter, there are
so many different criteria and none will be really
fundamental, and in any case I will be the biggest
object in the solar system. And I will be the one
that protects Earth's life from asteroids by either
catching or deviating them.") (Forgets: "Hey, the
biggest object in the solar system is the sun and
it also has a major role in making life on Earth
possible.")
Leo: "Very difficult to say what exactly is a planet. A planet
should circle the sun (and not a planet) and it should be
a distinctive object of a certain weight. The gas giants
are planets, so are the 4 rocky objects Mercury to Mars,
even though Mercury is a bit smaller than the largest moon
in the solar system, Titan. Mercury is very heavy, though.
Ceres is not a planet, is not distinctive enough; appeared
to be so when it was discovered, but as soon as people got
over their mistake, things became more natural again. The
same is true for Pluto. When initially discovered, believed
to be as large as Earth, but now known to be part of several,
Pluto will eventually no longer be considered a planet. It
appears, though, that people are still very attached to Pluto
as a planet, so the current proposal will do least harm, it
will officially keep Pluto a planet while effectively it will
no longer be part of the same group as the big eight. So, maybe
it would really be wisest to adopt the IAU proposal."
Although the proposal was apparently not worked out in Prague,
it was announced there and will be voted on there (the sun will
be just about in Virgo then). That adds some of the "Prague
Fringe" to the proposal. One of the properties of Prague and
Czech/-oslovakia has been to propose things before their time.
Like Reformation (Jan Hus, executed at Constance in 1415) or
the idea of a "communism with a human face" in the 1960s (it
is likely that future post-modern communities will be somewhere
in between extreme capitalism and extreme communism/fascism,
in terms of individual freedom; so the term will likely be
considered quite accurate a few hundred years from now.)
Astrologically, this is related to Libra, a sign that I would
also associate quite a bit with Apollon (one of the crucial
gods of the Greeks, which I see also as a counterpoint to the
Age of Aries, like Islam as counterpoint to the Age of Pisces).
Libra is, in my elementary model of the star signs, balancing
the elements Fire (abundant in Gemini) and Water (abundant in
Aquarius), while evolving towards Aquarius (getting older). In
that sense, the IAU proposal is momentarily quite a bit balanced
and harmonic (Venus rules Libra), since it keeps Pluto and only
adds 3 more planets, but eventually will grow into a post-modern
zoo of something like a 100 planets or more, out of which
everybody will then be able to select his or her own favorites
at will.
While the contemporary public will very likely not be happy
with hundreds of planets, the public in a couple of hundred
years might be a lot more at ease with it.
If you have time machines then, drop me an e-mail :)
As usual, a lot more could have been said. The predictions
of astrology and the ways to apply them are so rich that at
least this aspect of astrology is an art, although its simple
building blocks are certainly accessible to scientific proof.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
John Roth wrote:
: I like the variant that specifies "a lot larger than
: anything else in its neighborhood." The wording
: needs to be tightend up a lot (I know what it means,
: but I suspect most others don't.)
:
: That gets rid
: of everything except the standard 8: Mercury
: through Neptune, and also removes the whole thing
: about satellites being planets if the common
: center of gravity being outside of the primary.
Here's a link to an alternative proposal along these
lines (as far as I understand the article, the IAU will
also vote Thursday whether to vote on this proposal):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060819/sc_space/awildweekplanetdefinitionleftupintheair
It is, in my view, already a *much* better definition of
a planet. Remains natural and defines exactly planets in
our solar system to be planets. Also good that it leaves
away pretty much exactly the questions that need not be
addressed right now and also cannot be settled easily at
the moment.
I suspect that a slightly modified version of this might
be approved in the end.
)o+
--
PS: Hope this post is short enough to be read...
John Roth wrote:
: The effect on the astrological community of downgrading
: Pluto isn't something the IAU is concerned about.
In the direct sense, that is certainly so. Indirectly,
some concern shows in the emotional importance that
apparently also a large percentage of astrologers put
onto Pluto being a planet. That is very likely because
some people dear to them and a large percentage of the
public know at least semi-consciously about Pluto's
strong impact in everyday astrology. Many families are
built upon certain placements of Pluto in houses (and
signs) and in aspect. If Pluto would suddenly loose a
lot of importance, some important wishes of families
might remain unfulfilled, with possibly devastating
consequences.
The mentioned new proposed proposal, although degrading
Pluto to a "dwarf" planet along Ceres and a few Kuiper
Belt Objects like "Xena" etc., suggests to keep Pluto
still special in a way that might at first sight seem
irrelevant, but probably has a lot more weight that it
appears at first (and is thus an important element that
could help this proposed proposal to pass):
Pluto will remain unnumbered, just like the 8 Planets
Mercury to Neptune. All other objects that are not
planets get a number. In other words, Pluto will not be
Goedelized, which feels to me to be very significant in
terms of Pluto's astrological influence in the midterm
future, although I cannot fully pin down why.
)o+
John Roth wrote:
: You really think that the IAU's definition has
: anything to do with the influence of a planetary
: body in a chart? Quaint!
Tell me...
WW wrote:
> : Hermes wrote:
> : > John Roth wrote:
> : >
> : > : The effect on the astrological community of downgrading
> : > : Pluto isn't something the IAU is concerned about.
> : >
> : > In the direct sense, that is certainly so. Indirectly,
> : > some concern shows in the emotional importance that
> : > apparently also a large percentage of astrologers put
> : > onto Pluto being a planet. That is very likely because
> : > some people dear to them and a large percentage of the
> : > public know at least semi-consciously about Pluto's
> : > strong impact in everyday astrology. Many families are
> : > built upon certain placements of Pluto in houses (and
> : > signs) and in aspect.
>
> You mean astrologers' families, or any family?
>
> If Pluto would suddenly loose a
> : > lot of importance, some important wishes of families
> : > might remain unfulfilled, with possibly devastating
> : > consequences.
>
> But any loss of importance would be strictly in the sense of being demoted
> in definition by astronomers, not necessarily astrologers. And I'm not sure
> why you think that will affect families, or how.
See my discoveries.pdf. I explain astrological influence
as beeing mainly collective unconscious emotional feedback.
Any change in definition of what a planet is, will have an
impact on that (news, school books, etc.). And, of course,
I think that charts of children (in any families) are very
strongly related to the charts of the parents. See again
my discoveries.pdf and some previous posts for more details
(and the concept of "astrological inheritance" is something
that I thought to be generally known about by astrologers
and to be generally accepted; see e.g. Liz Greene's "The
Astrology of Fate").
> : You really think that the IAU's definition has
> : anything to do with the influence of a planetary
> : body in a chart? Quaint!
> :
> : John
> :
> :
> I have to agree. Pluto is pretty firmy entrenched in astrological lore and
> practice. How astronomers classify it won't matter much. Astrologers read
> meaning into all kinds of things...mathematically derived points, imaginary
> planets, asteroids. What do they care of an astronomer (or all the
> astronomers) decides that Pluto is not technically a planet? They pretty
> universally deride astrology as silly superstition anyway, and astrologers
> don't pay attention to that, either.
>
> Pluto's astronomical classification won't change the dynamics of Pluto in
> astrology charts and people's lives, either.
In my view, (depending on the adopted definition) there will be
a gradual change in the collective/unconscious preceived influence
of Pluto, which will change the impact of Pluto in charts, which
will then eventually lead to astrologers noticing the change in
their work and thus to a reduction of Pluto's influence also being
acknowledged by astrologers (in print and speech). Obviously, this
will not happen in a few minutes, but rather within a few decades.
But it is almost certain, in my view, that this will happen to a
noticeable degree.
Of course, my model of how astrology essentially works is not
scientifically proven, but at least qualitatively it fits with
many things much better than any other concrete suggestion
that I have ever seen (and it explains at the same time stuff
like telepathy, precognition, divination, in a unified way).
Usenet is not suitable to really discuss things. Almost all that
ever happens in usenet is that people announce their views and
that some people superficially attack them, often based on just
picking out something that can be interpreted two ways, like
"if the moon had a 10% larger diameter" as "if it was the same
mass and had a 10% larger diameter" instead of the obvious (same
density, 10% bigger, roughly 35% more mass). This is, I guess,
one of the main reasons why people have started to write blogs,
where it is obvious and more honestly declared who the one is
who announces, and who the ones are that reply (although they
are again also announcing their views...).
I got the star who's name is essentially the same as "Muezzin"
prominently as a paran, I think as helical rising star, and
another one with "healing" properties as setting star, if I
remember correctly. So, my views may be a bit biased. :)
)o+
> WW
>
> PS: Alain, I wanted to address your comments regarding the Goedelization of
> Pluto, but when I looked it up and tried to understand Goedel's theorums, my
> head ached, I went cross-eyed, and I got an overwhelming urge to channel the
> ghost of Claude Monet. When I thought I saw Neils Bohr standing in the
> corner laughing at me, I just gave it up entirely.
>
> <sigh>...
>
> Newton's Laws of Motion for Kids
>
> Force: When you kick your sister in the shin, you are using force.
> Mass: If she is fat she has lots of mass.
>
> Inertia: Being fat, she will not be able to chase you. She has inertia.
>
> Energy: Every time you kick her, molecules in the form of waves pass from
> your foot to her shin. This is energy. There can be lots of energy, like a
> nuclear bomb, or a tiny amount, like when one of your brain cells dies.
WW wrote:
: "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: news:hermes-2D5FFE.08433621082006@news.bluewin.ch...
: > WW wrote:
: >> : Hermes wrote:
: >> : > John Roth wrote:
: >> : >
: >> : > : The effect on the astrological community of downgrading
: >> : > : Pluto isn't something the IAU is concerned about.
: >> : >
: >> : > In the direct sense, that is certainly so. Indirectly,
: >> : > some concern shows in the emotional importance that
: >> : > apparently also a large percentage of astrologers put
: >> : > onto Pluto being a planet. That is very likely because
: >> : > some people dear to them and a large percentage of the
: >> : > public know at least semi-consciously about Pluto's
: >> : > strong impact in everyday astrology. Many families are
: >> : > built upon certain placements of Pluto in houses (and
: >> : > signs) and in aspect.
: >>
: >> You mean astrologers' families, or any family?
: >>
: >> If Pluto would suddenly loose a
: >> : > lot of importance, some important wishes of families
: >> : > might remain unfulfilled, with possibly devastating
: >> : > consequences.
: >>
: >> But any loss of importance would be strictly in the sense of being
: >> demoted
: >> in definition by astronomers, not necessarily astrologers. And I'm not
: >> sure
: >> why you think that will affect families, or how.
: >
: > See my discoveries.pdf. I explain astrological influence
: > as beeing mainly collective unconscious emotional feedback.
: > Any change in definition of what a planet is, will have an
: > impact on that (news, school books, etc.). And, of course,
: > I think that charts of children (in any families) are very
: > strongly related to the charts of the parents. See again
: > my discoveries.pdf and some previous posts for more details
: > (and the concept of "astrological inheritance" is something
: > that I thought to be generally known about by astrologers
: > and to be generally accepted; see e.g. Liz Greene's "The
: > Astrology of Fate").
: >
: >> : You really think that the IAU's definition has
: >> : anything to do with the influence of a planetary
: >> : body in a chart? Quaint!
: >> :
: >> : John
: >> :
: >> :
: >> I have to agree. Pluto is pretty firmy entrenched in astrological lore
: >> and
: >> practice. How astronomers classify it won't matter much. Astrologers read
: >> meaning into all kinds of things...mathematically derived points,
: >> imaginary
: >> planets, asteroids. What do they care of an astronomer (or all the
: >> astronomers) decides that Pluto is not technically a planet? They pretty
: >> universally deride astrology as silly superstition anyway, and
: >> astrologers
: >> don't pay attention to that, either.
: >>
: >> Pluto's astronomical classification won't change the dynamics of Pluto in
: >> astrology charts and people's lives, either.
: >
: > In my view, (depending on the adopted definition) there will be
: > a gradual change in the collective/unconscious preceived influence
: > of Pluto, which will change the impact of Pluto in charts, which
: > will then eventually lead to astrologers noticing the change in
: > their work and thus to a reduction of Pluto's influence also being
: > acknowledged by astrologers (in print and speech). Obviously, this
: > will not happen in a few minutes, but rather within a few decades.
: > But it is almost certain, in my view, that this will happen to a
: > noticeable degree.
:
: Well, I do disagree, but I suppose we'll see. ;-)
Sure. :)
I am certainly not dogmatic about my prediction. I have not
tried many times to predict anything, but, as far as I recall,
I got it *wrong* each and every time, without any exception.
Q: Why did Apple's stock rise ?
A: Because people bought it.
Q: Why is Pluto's influence in astrology strong ?
A: Because people want it so.
Q: What will people want in the future ?
A: People will want what they want to want in the future.
That's the essence of my view, without the prediction.
: > Of course, my model of how astrology essentially works is not
: > scientifically proven, but at least qualitatively it fits with
: > many things much better than any other concrete suggestion
: > that I have ever seen (and it explains at the same time stuff
: > like telepathy, precognition, divination, in a unified way).
: >
: > Usenet is not suitable to really discuss things. Almost all that
: > ever happens in usenet is that people announce their views and
: > that some people superficially attack them, often based on just
: > picking out something that can be interpreted two ways, like
: > "if the moon had a 10% larger diameter" as "if it was the same
: > mass and had a 10% larger diameter" instead of the obvious (same
: > density, 10% bigger, roughly 35% more mass).
:
: That is part of the experience, but I have discussed many things with many
: people in a very productive and satisfying way on usenet.
I guess that's not too far from my experience. But there are
differences and I think that the higher readiness to make
compromise in your post that I am replying to here, and in
my reply here, has not insignificantly to do with the fact
that these two posts only go to aat, and no longer both to
aat and amm.
: This is, I guess,
: > one of the main reasons why people have started to write blogs,
: > where it is obvious and more honestly declared who the one is
: > who announces, and who the ones are that reply (although they
: > are again also announcing their views...).
: >
: > I got the star who's name is essentially the same as "Muezzin"
: > prominently as a paran, I think as helical rising star, and
: > another one with "healing" properties as setting star, if I
: > remember correctly. So, my views may be a bit biased. :)
:
: Well, all of us bring personal bias to our views...otherwise, we'd all think
: the same thing, right? :-)
Sure.
It is just so that I personally prefer discussions where the
other people participating do think along and consider things
before they reply. And in usenet, people seem often only to
think "aloud", i.e. in their posts. They are free to do so,
but that is not really my bailiwick.
This is a very old issue. I think already the greek philosophers
did not agree what the best way to discuss an issue would be.
There must already be categories that describe the typical way
that things are discussed in usenet and the way that I would
prefer it to be a bit more.
: >
: > )o+
: >
: >> WW
: >>
: >> PS: Alain, I wanted to address your comments regarding the Goedelization
: >> of
: >> Pluto, but when I looked it up and tried to understand Goedel's theorums,
: >> my
: >> head ached, I went cross-eyed, and I got an overwhelming urge to channel
: >> the
: >> ghost of Claude Monet. When I thought I saw Neils Bohr standing in the
: >> corner laughing at me, I just gave it up entirely.
: >>
: >> <sigh>...
: >>
: >> Newton's Laws of Motion for Kids
: >>
: >> Force: When you kick your sister in the shin, you are using force.
: >> Mass: If she is fat she has lots of mass.
: >>
: >> Inertia: Being fat, she will not be able to chase you. She has inertia.
: >>
: >> Energy: Every time you kick her, molecules in the form of waves pass from
: >> your foot to her shin. This is energy. There can be lots of energy, like
: >> a
: >> nuclear bomb, or a tiny amount, like when one of your brain cells dies.
: >
:
: And now I think I'm pouting. I thought at least YOU would appreciate my
: silly left-brain/right brain and physics jokes. :-P
:
: WW
Actually I had wanted to reply something regarding at least
Goedel, Monet and Bohr (and more, like Landau meeting Bohr
and other anecdotes). Yesterday I was reluctant to write
especially about Goedel, because frankly I do not remember
fully what he did, only what it implied for math.
I hope to post something later today...
(And I would also like to take a look at the chart for the
general assembly of the IAU, where they might decide on the
definition of an astronomical planet, or maybe not).
I think I have seen the "sister" Newton's Laws of Motion
for Kids somewhere before, maybe on usenet or maybe not.
WW wrote:
: PS: Alain, I wanted to address your comments regarding the Goedelization of
: Pluto, but when I looked it up and tried to understand Goedel's theorums, my
: head ached, I went cross-eyed, and I got an overwhelming urge to channel the
: ghost of Claude Monet. When I thought I saw Neils Bohr standing in the
: corner laughing at me, I just gave it up entirely.
One of Goedels contributions to math is essentially that in
any sufficiently big formal system, there are theorems that
can be either true or false but it is not decidable in the
system whether they are true or false.
The clou is that math itself is such a system, too, i.e.
math is not complete and it is not sure that math is free
of contradictions.
An important part in Goedel's proof is to assign each theorem
a (unique) number and then to construct a theorem of the form
"the theorem with number x cannot be decided" and to show that
there is a value of x for which the above theorem between the
quotes has itself the Goedel number x. In other words, it is
possible to find a theorem that says "I cannot be decided".
Goedel was Austrian, born April 28, 1906, in Brno, which is
now part of the Czech Republic. In my personal experience,
numbers often occur in Czech culture. I have seen several
Czech web sites that used numbers for files on them, where
typical web sites in other countries would use names.
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/XTL42uR9342L.htm
A few years ago, a Czech company developed some parts of
software for the company I was working at then. The specs
that they provided were Word files with file names that
were just numbers, like d00129847.doc etc. They had a nice
interface in their Prague and Brno offices to administrate
their documents, but what we got was just a bunch of files
with numbers, which made it often a bit difficult to keep
an overview.
Czechoslovakia has a pretty interesting founding date.
Here is a quote from
http://homepage.mac.com/williamszone/dostal/chapter12/chapter12.html
: Masaryk, Benes and Stefanik worked diligently on a declaration of independence.
: Amid the scrawlings and corrections of the original document, lies the
: determination of three diligent patriots. On October 5, Germany, Austria-Hungary
: and Turkey asked for an armistice. German and Austrian historians, both political
: and military, agree that President Wilson's answer on October 18 to Austria's
: offer of peace, sealed her fate and settled the question of Czechoslovakian
: freedom. Emperor Charles attempted a desperate plan of turning Austria in to a
: federal state. Masaryk, realising that sympathy with Austria still existed,
: immediately issued the Czechoslovakian Declaration of Independence on October 18,
: 1918, in Washington D.C. The declaration was cast in a form to remind Americans
: of their own declaration of independence. On October 27, 1918, Vienna accepted
: President Wilson's terms for peace and the following day, October 28th, 1918,
: national independence was proclaimed in Prague. Two days later, Slovak leaders
: formally entered Czechoslovakia.
I guess it is pretty special for a founding date of a country
that it is proclaimed outside of the country.
Here is what Tomas Masaryk wrote (same source):
: Politics, too, demand a balance between reason and feeling. Even in the most
: delicate political situation we must notice and plan carefully, what, how and on
: whom we can count; it has to be as accurate as mathematics; our feelings must
: never err in their observations and calculations. But the aim, the ideal, is not
: laid down by reason alone, but by feeling also. The means are dictated by reason;
: but we can change the situation to suit our aim, we can introduce new elements
: into it, something of our own. That is creation; that is the poetry of life.
Here are some planetary positions for noon on 18 Oct 1918 in
Washington DC:
Sun 24 Lib 28
Moon 6 Ari 49
Mercury 26 Lib 38
Venus 15 Lib 18
Mars 12 Sag 24
Jupiter 15 Can 25
Saturn 25 Leo 51
Uranus 23 Aqu 54 r
Neptune 9 Leo 09
Pluto 6 Can 38 r
True Node 14 Sag 12
Chiron 0 Ari 9'16" r
P. Fort 2 Gem 25
Lilith 19 Lib 15
Ceres 6 Cap 00
Juno 29 Can 21
Quaoar 0 Vir 26
Sedna 13 Ari 02 r
Orcus 2 Tau 17
"Xena" 27 Pis 57
AC 20 Sag 04
MC 10 Lib 07
The general assembly of the IAU is scheduled to meet
24 August 2006, between 2 pm and 5.30 pm:
http://galaxy.ig.cas.cz/~cyril/SciProgram/SessionIaII.pdf
The schedule is as follows:
: SECOND SESSION
: Thursday, August 24, 14:00- 17:30, , Congress Hall
: 10. Division and Commission Matters
: 10.a. Election of Division Presidents and Vice Presidents 2006-2009
: 10.b. Adjustments to the Divisional Structure
: 10.c. Names of Commission Presidents and Vice-Presidents 2006-2009
: 11. Individual Membership
: 11.a. Names of new Individual Members of the Union
: 11.b. Names of deceased Individual Members of the Union since GA XXV
: 12. Financial matters
: 12.a. Report of the Finance Committee on the accounts 2003-2005
: and the budget 2007-2009
: 12.b. Vote on proposed budget 2007-2009
: 12.c. Appointment of a Finance Sub-Committee 2006-2009
: 13. Resolutions
: 13.a. Report of the Resolutions Committee
: 13.b. Presentation of Resolutions of type B by proposers
: 13.c. Vote on the Resolutions
: 13.d. Appointment of a Resolutions Committee 2006-2009
: 14. Appointment of the Special Nominating Committee 2006-2009
: 15. Promotion of the XVIIth General Assembly
I guess they won't have much time for discussions then.
Here are planetary positions for start and end of the
session:
Sun 1 Vir 11 1 Vir 19
Moon 8 Vir 51 10 Vir 35
Mercury 23 Leo 24 23 Leo 41
Venus 14 Leo 16 14 Leo 27
Mars 20 Vir 35 20 Vir 41
Jupiter 12 Sco 22 12 Sco 23
Saturn 17 Leo 01 17 Leo 02
Uranus 13 Pis 13 r
Neptune 18 Aqu 04 r
Pluto 24 Sag 07 r
True Node 25 Pis 23
Chiron 5 Aqu 43
P. Fort 2 Sag 43 17 Cap 26
Lilith 23 Vir 44 23 Vir 45
Ceres 17 Aqu 13 r 17 Aqu 12 r
Quaoar 14 Sag 21 r
Sedna 20 Tau 14 r
Orcus 27 Leo 34
"Xena" 21 Ari 13 r
AC 25 Sco 04 8 Cap 11
MC 15 Vir 56 12 Sco 09
Some remarks:
- Quaoar conjunct true node of CZ
- AC trine true node at start of session
- Several objects in Sagittarius will pass the AC
during the session
WW wrote:
: PS: Alain, I wanted to address your comments regarding the Goedelization of
: Pluto, but when I looked it up and tried to understand Goedel's theorums, my
: head ached, I went cross-eyed, and I got an overwhelming urge to channel the
: ghost of Claude Monet. When I thought I saw Neils Bohr standing in the
: corner laughing at me, I just gave it up entirely.
Here's something that would relativate the question
"What's a physicist ?"
Its all from memory, so some facts might be inaccurate...
Lev Davidovic Landau (*22 Jan 1908),
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1962/landau-bio.html
was a very famous physicist. As far as remember, he would sit/lie
on his divan in Moskow and other physicist would come to him and
tell him about the new papers they had read (or written) and ask
him about his opinion about them. Not exactly what one imagines
to be possible in the Soviet Union, but apparently how it was.
So, Landau must be a very famous physicist, many others circle
around him, right ?
Well, once Landau went to Kopenhagen, to visit Niels Bohr in
Copenhagen. An assistant of Niels Bohr then made an ironic
drawing that shows Landau tied to a chair and gagged and
Niels Bohr rising a hand and saying "Now, may I say a few
words for a change". Niels Bohr was a Libra.
John Archibald Wheeler once went also to visit Niels Bohr.
At the university, he saw a handyman who was doing some
work, I don't remember what exactly, but I think it was
attaching something to a wall. Wheeler asked him where he
could find Niels Bohr, and the handyman answered that he
had found him,
I don't have an anecdote that goes full circle back to Landau,
but I guess also the concept of being a physicist is somewhat
relative...
I think one or two of these anecdotes might be from "Quantum
Theory and Measurement" by Wheeler and Zurek, or maybe not.
WW wrote:
[...]
: I'm not sure why I struck aam from the to: line on this reply. Maybe it was
: because it felt like this reply was just to you, but it felt more like just
: a reflex action. Strange. One thing I do know is that if they go to both,
: aamod's mod gets it first (alphabetical order), and so decides for both
: groups. And also, a few times posts I have sent to both groups showed up on
: aamod and not on aat. <shrug>
Never happened to me, goes to all groups to that I send it to,
but I may not be representative, because technology usually
works as advertised with me. No "Pauli Effect" with me.
I am not sure if it always goes alphabetically, I presume that
depends on the configuration at the internet provider.
[...]
: > Actually I had wanted to reply something regarding at least
: > Goedel, Monet and Bohr (and more, like Landau meeting Bohr
: > and other anecdotes).
:
: Well, I was just making fun of myself. With a water Mercury and so much
: other water in my chart, I suppose I am much more "right-brained" than left
: (if you'll pardon that rather outdated and dubious term). Although I am a
: writer, I do so from an emotional an intuitive point of view (typical of
: Cancer Mercury) rather than from a logical one (which isn't to say there is
: no logic in what I write! lol).
:
: I love to paint, draw, sing, make music and I am naturally good at all of
: those things...although there is a blending of the logical and the intuitive
: involved in learning and playing music that at times makes it difficut for
: me. I can pick up my guitar or get on a keyboard and play things easily by
: ear, I have a natural, instinctive grasp of rythym and harmony, and yet
: delving into the intricacies of music theory often frustrates me because the
: math does not seem to stick in my mind (as always). I have to work hard at
: it to make much progress at all. I always said that if God wanted to me in
: hell, He would make me a numbers cruncher. ;-)
I have a lot of water in my chart. My Mercury (slighly
retrograde) is at the beginning of Leo, at the end of the
12th house. Writing is something that does not go easily
for me, even if it may appear differently in public.
What posted today took almost all my energy and time
besides work, which I left early (4 pm) today. Even
smalltalk, like deciding whether to answer with a ":)"
(or maybe a ";)" or a "(^_^)") can often be quite a bit
of an effort for me. I am much better with nonverbal
communication, i.e. face to face. That is also, I guess,
why it can annoy me a lot if people ask quick questions
or misinterpret what I have written so that I feel quite
a bit obliged to explain, which takes again quite a bit
of energy and deviates from what I considered to be the
main points that I wanted to point out initially. Of
course, I can also learn from these replies and what
emerges is often also quite interesting, but still writing
is something that takes quite a toll for me, even small
remarks.
[...]
: They made me laugh. What was it someone said about "if you can explain it to
: a child, then you surely know your subject?" Or something like that.
There are even mathematicians who consider that something
is not proven until the proof is so obvious that even
people who are not mathematicians can understand it.
I am not sure if that is possible in all cases, but it is
certainly good to keep things simple. Einstein is often
quoted as having said "Make it as simple as possible, but
not simpler".
Writing to aat is a lot easier and fluid than to other groups
for me. Still so that errors correct themselves very often
automatically, so I do not have (nor do I usually feel like
doing so) to go back to what I have written and check it.
I guess this is certainly also related to the Sag AC, but
there must be more to it, but I do not understand it.
I wrote
: The general assembly of the IAU is scheduled to meet
: 24 August 2006, between 2 pm and 5.30 pm:
The next general assembly (the 27th) of the IAU after
that is scheduled to be August 02-15, 2009, in Rio de
Janeiro (Brazil).
)o+
I wrote:
: Here's a link to an alternative proposal along these
: lines (as far as I understand the article, the IAU will
: also vote Thursday whether to vote on this proposal):
Original (Official) Proposal
- Mercury to Neptune: Classical Planets
- Pluto, Ceres, Charon, plus soon more (anything "round"): Planets
- Anything else: Small Solar System Bodies
New Proposal:
- Mercury to Neptune: Planets
- Pluto, Ceres, plus soon more (anything "round"): Dwarf Planets
- Anything else: Small Solar System Bodies
The original proposal is more diplomatic (leaves Pluto a
planet for the moment), but can be migrated to something
along the new one, as soon as the public might feel so.
Both draw a line between the 8 guys Mercury to Neptune
and the rest, which is the most crucial discrimination.
Labels can be reassigned later and the odd distinction
between double planet and planet with a moon can be
redefined later (is not so important).
The original proposal is certainly a bit "crazy" from a
purely scientific standpoint, boundless like Uranus in
Pisces, but maybe just because of that ("fits current
times") might have still a good chance to be accepted.
Or maybe not. Or whatever. :)
)o+
I wrote:
> I have a lot of water in my chart. My Mercury (slighly
> retrograde) is at the beginning of Leo, at the end of the
> 12th house. Writing is something that does not go easily
> for me, even if it may appear differently in public.
> What posted today took almost all my energy and time
> besides work, which I left early (4 pm) today. Even
> smalltalk, like deciding whether to answer with a ":)"
> (or maybe a ";)" or a "(^_^)") can often be quite a bit
> of an effort for me. I am much better with nonverbal
> communication, i.e. face to face. That is also, I guess,
> why it can annoy me a lot if people ask quick questions
> or misinterpret what I have written so that I feel quite
> a bit obliged to explain, which takes again quite a bit
> of energy and deviates from what I considered to be the
> main points that I wanted to point out initially. Of
> course, I can also learn from these replies and what
> emerges is often also quite interesting, but still writing
> is something that takes quite a toll for me, even small
> remarks.
Bye, Sharyn! And good luck with your projects and anything.
:) :) :)
Alain
a hundred hands...
Alois Treindl wrote:
: I personally, and my colleagues at Astrodienst, welcome the IAU decision
: about the definition of planets.
:
: I like it much better than the original proposal, which would have
: pushed Charon - clearly Pluto's satellite - into planet status.
:
: Astrology can live well with the redefinition of Pluto as a dwarf
: planet. Everyone who has ever met Gimli knows about the power of dwarfs.
:
: A planet in astrology is not the same as a planet in astronomy. For
: example, we also consider Sun and Moon as planets in the horoscope,
: hindu astrologers even Rahu and kete, the lunar nodes.
:
: For most astrologers, Pluto will remain an important planet in the
: chart, dwarf or giant.
:
: In astrology, a planet is a SYMBOL, not a physical object. The planet is
: interpreted as a symbol on a map. Only its position on the sky is
: calculated astronomically correct.
:
: Astrodienst staff member Dieter Koch has writte a short article about
: Pluto's new status (currently only in German). It is linke at the
: Astrodienst homepage, www.astro.com
:
: Alois Treindl
I agree, but also think that this does not really consider
things down to the bottom. Let me take a step further.
The astrological symbol Pluto and the physical object Pluto
are not unconnected. The astrological symbol Pluto is in
essence the sum of what people perceive it to be. These
collective (and largely unconscious) beliefs and wishes are
essentially what give the astrological symbol Pluto its
power in people's lives (any people's, not just astrologers',
since this is essentially an unconscious/collective effect).
The scientific reality about the physical object Pluto does
have *some* impact on that; at the moment certainly not that
much, and, since it is impossible to predict with certainty
how collective beliefs and wishes will evolve, there may or
may not be a significant reduction of the importance of the
astrological symbol Pluto in the future.
Personally, I expect that a gradual reduction of Pluto's
astrological influence during the coming years will happen.
It will start with astrological software putting Pluto less
into the same bag as sun, moon and Mercury to Neptune, but
rather grouping it with Cheiron, Ceres, "Xena", ... at least
in default settings (which might mean no Pluto aspects by
default or even no Pluto by default, etc.).
Symbolically, I see a lot of Virgo in current events (sun,
moon in Virgo when vote was cast; Pluto reduced and Ceres
enhanced somewhat; "Xena" proposed to be named something
of a Persephone, according to the discoverer's web site).
Gimli (Alain Stalder, dwarf astrologer)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Liz Greene, Astrology for Lovers (Weiser, 1989; p. 318):
: There is a fascinating legend about the scorpion: if you corner him,
: and give him no avenue for escape, he will sting himself to death.
: This sounds a little apocryphal. But I have seen it happen. Once in
: the south of France I watched a group of children surround a small
: brown scorpion with sticks, so that it was completely trapped. It
: committed suicide. The message here is that Scorpio would rather
: destroy himself, and go down in flames by his own hand - literally
: or psychologically - than submit to another's ultimatum or control.
: It's that damnable pride again. 'Better to reign in hell,' as Lucifer
: says in Milton's Paradise Lost (Milton had Scorpio rising), 'than to
: serve in heaven.' If Scorpio ever truly bows his head, he has learned
: one of the most valuable lessons of his life.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0877287023
With Jupiter in Scorpio suicide occurs maybe a bit unexpected
for many observers, because they lack Jupiter's overview (and
were not directly involved with the redefinition of planets).
Here is the definition of a planet by the IAU including the
footnote [1]:
: (1) A "planet" [1] is a celestial body that: (a) is in orbit around
: the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome
: rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly
: round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit.
: [1] The eight planets are: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter,
: Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.
Footnote [1] was explicitly part of the definition, as Jocelyn
Bell Burnell, who structured things during this part of the IAU's
general assembly meeting, pointed out before the vote.
She is the discoverer of Pulsars, born 15 July 1943 in Belfast
and her looks reminded me maybe a bit of astrologer Bernadette
Brady. After the first meeting for discussing the then proposed
definition of a planet on 22 August had been apparently quite
chaotic, the second meeting that day was directed by her.
In the webcast of the 24 August IAU general assembly, she used
the elevator metaphor, where each speaker would get about the
time to speak that it takes an elevator to go from one floor
to the other. I think she handled things very well and helped
a lot to reach a consensus among astronomers that would also
be considerate of the general public. The latter explains a bit
why the definition is maybe not as scientifically strict as it
might otherwise have been, resp. has been in earlier proposals.
And it also explains that the second part that defines 'dwarf
planets' is a bit schizophrenic, even though it was made clear
before the vote (and is stated in footnote [1] above), that
'dwarf planets' are not planets, despite common use of grammar.
: (2) A "dwarf planet" is a celestial body that: (a) is in orbit around
: the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome
: rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly
: round) shape [2], (c) has not cleared the neighbourhood around its
: orbit, and (d) is not a satellite.
Here is a list of all objects in the solar system by radius:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_system_objects_by_radius
It is clearly so that the 8 planets have either swallowed or
taken hostage as satellites (=moons) any major objects around
their orbits. It is also clearly so that Pluto has not done so.
Pluto is part of a belt of objects that are mostly outside of
Neptune. Neptune has not incorporated Pluto nor made it one of
its moons, but at least controls the period of Pluto's orbit
in a 2:3 resonance.
See also the comments of Mike Brown, one of the discoverers of
"Xena", and his "Requiem for Xena":
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/eightplanets/
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/whatsaplanet/requiem.html
Here is his birth data, as reported by LibraLove last autumn:
: In case you missed it in the NCGR newsletter, Mike Brown, the
: discoverer of UB313 was born June 5, 1965, 2:35 pm in Huntsville,
: Alabama, as given to John Marchesella by Mike Brown in email
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/72c3482c1bf9c9e3
Let me sum it up: From a purely scientific point of view,
the physical object Pluto is not in the same category as
Mercury to Neptune. In my feeling, although it certainly
hurts quite a few people, at least in America, it is still
a wise and good decision not to consider Pluto a full
planet any more. Scientifically this is even nothing really
new, it had just become more and more acute with recent
discoveries of Kuiper Belt objects like Varuna, Quaoar,
Orcus, ..., and finally "Xena" who is slightly larger than
Pluto.
If the USA feels that it is so important to keep Pluto a
planet during the decade to come so that they can use it
to restructure their country - which has essentially had
the same governmental structures since 1781, which were
certainly unique at that time, but now start to show
their age - let them have it that way in the USA for as
long as Pluto is in Capricorn or maybe a bit longer, but
more than that seems unlikely...
Then again, keeping physical object Pluto a planet does,
in my personal view, rather resemble the Middle Ages
than the Age of Enlightenment. Your choice!
)o+
--
"Honk if you think Pluto is a planet" (2006 bumper sticker)
"The problem is choice." (Neo in the movie "Matrix Reloaded")
First 3 parts that make the necessary decisions, then a 4th part
that relativates the decisions philosophically (although not
their immediate practical implications)...
Part 1: Chart drawing and what happens down on earth
The short answer from my experience (and I am sure practically all
astrologers will agree with me on that) is that, YES, the symbols
and lines that you draw on birth/event charts correlate very well
with what happens in people's lives down here on planet earth.
It is also so (and I expect at least a majority of astrologers to
agree with me here) that the astrological symbol Pluto drawn on
the chart is a strong and important factor that should almost
always not be neglected in chart interpretation. Especially for
events in the 20th century, it would normally make one half-blind
not to include Pluto. Could fascism be understood astrologically
without Pluto, could WWII, could the atomic bomb ?
Take the birth chart of infamous Joseph Mengele, for example:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/portraits/UsprnzjG4XFc.htm
Sure, Neptune in the first house, loosely conjunct the ascendent
and sun/Mercury/MC in Pisces can explain a few things about him,
but where in the chart could one see his strange obsession with
twins so eminently, if not in Pluto in the 12th in Gemini ?
In my experience (and here I expect at least a good part of
astrologers to agree based on experience) also symbols on a
chart that do not correspond to physical objects in space have
an impact on people's lives down on earth. Symbols like the
lunar nodes or the mean black moon Lilith (or lunar apogee) do
in my experience usually have a strong influence, too.
Once more: The correlation between the symbols on the chart
drawing (signs, "planets" and other "objects", aspects, houses,
etc.) and what happens to people down on earth exists.
In my estimation as a physicist, it is also in principle possible
to prove formally that such correlations exist. I have little
comprehension for astrologers and others who categorically deny
such a possibility to prove these correlations that are clearly
observable in everyday life.
Part 2: Astronomy and chart drawing
Originally, the chart drawing was intended to be a direct mirror
image of the sky with the physical objects in the sky mirrored
directly on the chart drawing.
This is not so, at least not the way most contemporary astrologers
work:
- The star signs in the chart drawing do not correlate with the
physical constellations in the sky. A bit more than 2000 years
ago, there was at least a rough correlation, but even then the
physical constellations were not the 12 equally spaced sectors
that astrologers commonly use on their chart drawings.
- Different cultures group the stars in the sky into different
constellations and use different star signs.
- The position of the symbols for planets and other objects in the
chart do correspond 1:1 to the positions of the corresponding
physical objects on the ecliptic (in terms of angular distance
to the spring point).
- But the weights that these symbols get on a chart is in no
consistent way connected to the properties of the corresponding
physical objects in space. For example, the relative weight of
physical object Pluto compared to other objects in the Kuiper
Belt ("Xena", etc.) does not not correlate to the relative use
of the symbol Pluto in a chart compared to the symbols that
correspond to the respective other Kuiper Belt objects.
- House systems are quite arbitrary and come in various flavors,
although probably most western astrologers use either Placidus
or Koch in most instances. It appears that current 12-fold
house divisions emerged from earlier 8-fold divisions and very
likely from divisions into 4 and 2, just like constellations
in the sky emerged from 1 ("sky") over just 2 or 3 pretty huge
constellations into what we have now.
Part 3: Astronomy and what happens down on earth
As I exposed in the two previous parts, there is an obvious strong
correlation between what happens to people down on earth and the
symbols and lines on a birth/event chart, but there is no direct,
consistent, obvious correlation between the physical objects in
space and the chart drawings that astrologers typically use.
It follows therefore logically that there is not direct, consistent,
obvious correlation between the physical objects in space and what
happens to people down on earth. (Please be reminded that part 4 will
relativate this statement to some degree.)
This means that astrology is a priori a cultural phenomenon. People'
convictions (conscious and unconscious!) are the major driving force
that create the correlations between human fates and chart drawings,
not the physical planets and objects in space.
This is, of course, hard to swallow (although the typical US citizen
would, being always a bit of a Cancer sun by US citizenship, would
almost never admit such a weakness hidden behind the hard shell of
the crab) especially for astrologers who often are fascinated by
astrology because it apparently gives human fates down on earth a
higher, cosmic meaning through the perceived correlation "what is
above corresponds to what is above" between the physical sky and
what happens down to earth.
Nonetheless, this is essentially the conclusion that must be drawn
if one is honest with oneself.
Part 4: Philosophical relativations
Many astrologers argue that other objects of similar size than Pluto
just have not been studied long enough to include their effects in
chart interpretation. That is partially true, but does, of course, in
no way explain the exceptionally strong influence of the astrological
symbol Pluto that is simply not mirrored by its physical properties
compared to the other Kuiper Belt Objects.
Nonetheless, studying now all these objects can certainly be a quite
fascinating task. That will be a different world than modern times
was with Pluto, but there is certainly also beauty in the postmodern
"zoo" of planets.
Had I not looked a bit more into astronomy lately, I would never had
heard about the "Hilda Belt", just a bit outside the main asteroid
belt between Mars and Jupiter. The main object in the Hilda Belt,
Hilda named after the daughter of someone the discoverer knew, is
in a 2:3 orbital resonance with Jupiter, thus similar to Pluto's
3:2 resonance with Neptune (although Hilda is closer to the sun
than Jupiter, while Pluto is usually further out than Neptune).
Or did you know that Jupiter has asteroids on its orbit that are
focussed at sextiles to Jupiter ? One bunch 60 degrees ahead of
Jupiter on its orbit and another 60 degrees behind ?
Browse e.g. wikipedia for lots of interesting information about all
these objects...
And then look for symbolical connections...
For example, Hilda was pretty much in the middle of the zodiac when
Pluto was declared (or maybe rather publicly recognized) to be no
longer sufficiently special to be considered a physical planet, at
the early degrees of Libra, which correlates at least well with the
delayed appearance of a post of mine at aat (half a year delay or so)
that lead to discussions around the state CA and other things that
had repeatedly astrological symbols in early Libra (and also early in
Aries, like Czechoslovakia).
Or Jupiter is in my view and experience a lot concerned with what
the ancient greeks apparently called "Kairos", the right moment to
do something, which I relate also to sextiles (opportunities), and
which is mirrored in the asteroids in sextile on Jupiter's orbit.
In my view, although generally astrology is man-made on earth, it
is still a lot adapted to thousands and millions of years of life
on earth and thus contains (in somewhat veiled form) lots of deeper
secrets that are certainly worth exploring and (until their time is
ripe) also worth preserving.
From a practical point of view, it will be impossible to convince a
majority of people of this last statement, while it will certainly
be possible to prove the immediate correlations between chart
drawings and how people behave down on earth.
In my view, natural events like hurricanes and earthquakes appear
also to be somewhat correlated to event chart drawings, but it also
appears to me that the rules there are somewhat different than with
birth/event charts of people. But I am not 100% sure there is really
a connection.
In principle, it cannot be ruled out that collective (conscious and
unconscious) wishes have a direct influence on natural events, like
hurricanes and earthquakes. As a physicist, I can even seen some
mechanisms based on considerations about quantum mechanics and
measurement that might explain such correlations. That stuff is,
however, difficult to convey to people who do not know quantum
mechanics and its philosophical implications well, which includes,
besides obviously the large majority non-scientists, unfortunately
also most scientists who are not physicists and even many physicsts.
Conclusion
Practical decision has been made? Yes.
Fundamental decisions have been made ? No, they never are.
It is just so that practical decisions are based on a comparison
of the everlasting pool of possibilities, which is described in
categorized form by systems like astrology or the I Ching.
)o+
PS: Thanks a lot to Alois Treindl for introducing the clear
distinction between astrological symbol Pluto and physical
object Pluto to discussions here in a recent post. This has
helped my a lot to formulate considerations in this post.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
What can you find at exactphilosophy.net ?
A quite concrete idea that links the 4+1 classical elements
of the ancient Greeks (Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Ether) to
the immediate perception of space and time, as well as to
issues of free will and destiny, all with explicit relations
to the philosophies of Aristotle and Kant, and with implicit
ones to Plato, Schopenhauer and others. I also present an
explicit idea how the 8 hexagrams of the I Ching might be
related to the 4+1 elements in the West.
I am a Swiss physicist (*1966 in Zurich) and usually update
my site once a year in January, after thinking about these
issues during the year. The contents of my site is purposely
rather minimal and condensed - think maybe Lao Tzu or maybe
Heraclitus - so, like Nietzsche said about the "darkness" of
the works of Heraclitus, this perception might be essentially
due to people reading too quickly what has been written very
slowly and thus not perceiving what is rather clarity...
Anyway, see section "elementary philosophy" with its four
subsections for the stuff mentioned above. Please note that
the other sections, "formal approaches" and "evolutions" are
at the moment essentially empty, yet.
I maintain this site as a hobby, mostly for my personal fun,
so I may not always be as formally complete as I would in a
publication that I would do professionally. I think that does
even add to quality, by omitting some often superfluous text
that is often merely convention and decoration, not content.
What was updated for this year ?
- More quotes from Kant and Aristotle that are directly
related to the new ideas that I present
- Various additional leads
- Subsection "interfaces" is entirely new.
What might appear next year:
- Illustrations for the section "elementary philosophy"
- A formal model of "elementary philosophy", i.e. suitable for
experimental tests of the presented ideas (I am a physicist)
- Material for the other sections that are, yet, empty
Note that instead of browsing the site online, you can also
download it in a ZIP file, which you can find under "Archive".
Due to the experimentally observed almost uniform irrelevance
of replies posted to usenet regarding similar topics, I only
consider replies by e-mail (see my site for e-mail address).
Updates are yearly in January, so stay tuned for next year...
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology,sci.physics
Subject: Briaeus
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a hundred hands...
Anybody wants to host Delphi / astrolib for Palm OS ?
For personal reasons, I will no longer be able to host the
astrology application Delphi for PalmOS on my web site, nor
will I be able to host the source code for the astronomical
library astrolib for PalmOS there; termination by the end
of November (of this year, 2006).
If anybody is interested to host these files, please feel
free to do so. Here are the binaries and the essential
information about what they are etc.:
1) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi201.zip
- Contains the most current version of Delphi (2.01) for
PalmOS handhelds; supports Palm OS version 3.5 and later.
- Contains a HTML (web) documentation with lots of screen
shots, and the binaries delphi.prc, astrolib.prc and
mathlib.prc (a mathematical library not written by me,
but required to run Delphi).
- Originally released in May 2002 (Saturn-Pluto opp.)
- For all I know still works on all devices except likely
the most recent ones (PalmOS 5.4.9 and maybe slightly
older versions), namely Palm TX, Zire Z22 and Treo 700p.
This is caused by a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9, more precisely
in the emulation of the previous PalmOS <5 architecture.
- Reportedly works on Windows CE Pocket PC handhelds with
the ca. US$ 50 commercial PalmOS 5.2 emulator called
"Styletap platform" (www.styletap.com).
I cannot confirm this from direct experience, though
(I have not tried, nor do I intend to buy a Pocket PC).
- Delphi 2.01 is currently downloaded between 5 and 10 times
a day from my web site.
- Many people downloading come from freewarepalm.com, namely
from this URL (which also features a description of Delphi
and some user feedback):
http://www.freewarepalm.com/astrology/delphi.shtml
- Also people often come from the following french web page:
http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/palm.htm
- Please note that I no longer own a PalmOS device, nor a
development environment for PalmOS, nor do I have the
source code for Delphi any more (gone since a few years).
- Since the 68k platform that Delphi was written for, does
not exist natively since PalmOS 5 any more, and is since
then emulated, Delphi should (except for bugs, like the
one mentioned above, in the emulation) continue to work
for possibly a long time into the future.
- Many people like Delphi.
2) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi200.zip
- Same as above, except that it is an older version of Delphi
(2.00), with identical features, except that it runs on
earlier PalmOS versions, namely 2.0 to 4.x.
- Probably hardly needed by anybody at this time (people who
have such old devices likely already have Delphi, if they
dig that kind of applications).
3) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/astrolib103.zip
- Source code for astrolib 1.03, an open source library that
calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
order of an arc second and calculates time zones based on
unix time zone data, even back to historical dates.
- Contains the C source code, but not a fully buildable
project (used to be CodeWarrior for PalmOS on Mac OS <X).
- Is referenced by the following link:
http://www.palmopensource.com/index.php?category=22
- As far as I know (and I have NOT checked recently), that
unix time zone data is the only source for fully free time
zone calculations worth mentioning.
- The calculations of planetary positions are outdated for
most purposes; today I would use Swiss Ephemeris.
- astrolib is distributed under the LGPL, the Lesser GNU
Public License.
Please note that my web page about Delphi/astrolib,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
will also be gone by the end of November.
I enjoyed writing these programs and providing them to
others and wish everybody good luck - with Delphi/astrolib
and with everything else.
English (Delphi and astrolib):
http://astroblahhh.com/astrology/software/delphi_and_astrolib/index.shtml
Français (Delphi):
http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/delphi.htm
Thanks! :)
Something different...
(yearly update is up)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
In article <8l4dp29ru3no8njsi4rqj005smtapafjle@4ax.com>,
Bob Officer <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:54:08 +0100, in alt.astrology, Hermes
> <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> >Something different...
>
> You're going to admin astrology is a all false and astrology is
> nothing more than a scam.
>
> >
> >(yearly update is up)
> >
> >http://www.exact-truth-not-here.net/
Telling me what to do???
In article <8l4dp29ru3no8njsi4rqj005smtapafjle@4ax.com>,
Bob Officer <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:54:08 +0100, in alt.astrology, Hermes
> <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
[...]
> >http://www.exact-truth-not-here.net/
Uuuh. Changing quoted text without notice.
I did not write that.
end of communication.
(47) Without going outside his door, one understands
(all that takes place) under the sky; without looking
out from his window, one sees the Tao of Heaven. The
farther that one goes out (from himself), the less he
knows. Therefore the sages got their knowledge without
traveling; gave their (right) names to things without
seeing them; and accomplished their ends without any
purpose of doing so.
Tao Te Ching, translated by Andre Gauthier
Cujo DeSockpuppet (cujo - at - petitmorte.net) wrote:
> [...]
It may not be apparent to all, but I would bet a lot
that the coming years will be a lot more relaxed and
calm than the previous ones. :)
I am sure you are aware that "la petite morte" is a
french expression for sex, for an orgasm, literally
"the little death". That's a Scorpio theme, where
the n.node of the french revolution is, where now the
sun is, and where also the most french creation in
astrology is, namely the "Mean Black Moon Lilith",
apparently first considered in about 1930 in France,
sort of a counterpoint to Pluto, which was discovered
in the US in 1930. Lilith is now at about 13 Scorpio
and I would be quite astonished if there was no
conjunction to an important object in your birth chart,
Cujo, maybe even your sun (i.e. birth around 6 Nov),
with Lilith at the moment.
Scorpio is like the guy in Dante's hell, every step
that tries to penetrate is a little death, brings
him closer to the center, only at the end it turns
out that the center is not as hot and steamy, as it
might seem to the young scorpion, but instead it is
cold and dead...
I have a Ph.D. in physics. Astrology works and does
so in ways that can certainly be proven experimentally.
It does not even appear all that difficult to do. In
my view, using the digitized world of the web and maybe
especially of usenet, might be the quickest path to a
solid proof of astrology. The data is digitized, so
there is practically no argument what "reality" is in
usenet. The equivalent of a birth date and time are
simply date and time of the first post under a given
screen name / e-mail address. Since a lot of usenet
content is stereotypical, it will be especially posters
like you, Cujo, and there are many, who repeat the same
behavior over and over again, with very little original
new content in between; so it comes down essentially to
categorizing roughly what kind of comment it is - attack,
cuddling with alikes, etc. - plus timing of when the
posts are posted or appear. Almost a piece of cake once
serious scientists start earnestly to do this.
The anger in skeptics does come from fear, a collectively
shared (and also realistic) fear of what happens after
such things as astrology and collective psychology, and
together with accepted telepathy and precognition, start
to come to the light and become mainstream. The less men
are aware of themselves the less easily they can be
directed by fate, but maybe that difference is mostly a
qualitative one, not a fundamental one. Anyway, what the
ç&*%&" does an out of work magician - and now apparently
doing the same thing - fooling people into a personal
cult, have to do with anything ??? Nah, the recipe is
much more: make experiments, at a large and respected
university, publish them at a respected place, and then
a few decades later get a few prices, too. However, the
time to start this is apparently still quite a bit in
the future. I don't mind... :)
Keep up the good work, it will help to prove astrology;
although I respect the sacrifice and the monotony of it
does not appear healthy at all...
Your life, your decision. (My life, mine. :) :) :)
)o+
I wrote:
> The less men
> are aware of themselves the less easily they can be
> directed by fate, but maybe that difference is mostly a
> qualitative one, not a fundamental one.
I guess my typo proves that :)
xizar wrote:
: Cujo DeSockpuppet wrote, on 11/12/2007 9:50 PM:
: > <snip catfight>
: > Let's rock.
These virtual catfights have a purpose, though,
and they are about claiming territory, too. As
far as the Fates concerned nothing is fixed,
except maybe that Aphrodite/Venus is not allowed
to do concrete work with her hands, since Athene
observed her once trying to do so secretly and
reporting it to the other gods...
)o+ (posting for Sedna, who has no fingers, and thus cannot type... ;)
Bob Officer wrote:
: you do know lilith is a imaginary planet. much like astrology, all
: imaginary. Astrology is apophenic in nature. It doesn't exist.
Lilith is about as real as France, both purely cultural constructs :)
Astrology is, at least to first order, just collective psychology.
It works because people, everybody, not just astrologers, believe
unconsciously in it. The conscious scientific layer over the world
is still quite young compared to human culture overall.
This obsoletes the main arguments against astrology, namely that
because of precession constellations do not align with star signs,
or that star signs are far from being 12 equally sized sections,
or that grouping stars into constellations is not a natural thing,
or that planets are too small to have any important effect on people's
lives on earth, or that "objects" that astrologers consider like
the lunar nodes or Lilith etc. are not real objects in space.
So the claim that remains is simply, and *only* this one: The
lines and dots that astrologers draw onto their charts are correlated
with events in the life of the individual for which the chart is
drawn. No claim of any connection whatsoever with the stars and
planets etc. So, most arguments do not stick. Obviously, though,
nobody has so far published any data in a scientific journal that
shows a convincing correlation between a mathematical model for
interpreting birth charts and people's lives, very far from it.
So, it remains a matter of opinion at the moment whether astrology
works in the sense described above. As long as I do not provide a
concrete mathematical model, my claim is "not even wrong", to cite
Pauli: nobody can falsify it. Thus any potential decision has been
postponed. No need to discuss it at the moment, therefore. ;)
PS to DJ: Sorry, my decision is made. Best wishes. :)
)o+
Bob Officer wrote:
: The flaw in the charter for moderated groups is the muzzle the place
: of freedom of thought and discussion.
Charter of alt.astrology.tropical (online since Sep 2001):
7) [...] Skeptical discussion of
astrology in general should have title lines beginning
'VALIDITY:'. The moderators may prefix subject lines.
Your milage in reality, may vary, though, I guess :)
)o+
In article <fhppkm$ecn$1@aioe.org>,
"astropophageous" <azerty@ytreza.com> wrote:
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in news message
> news:hermes-1C68FE.07553217112007@news.bluewin.ch...
> > Cujo DeSockpuppet (cujo - at - petitmorte.net) wrote:
> >
> >> [...]
> >
> > It may not be apparent to all, but I would bet a lot
> > that the coming years will be a lot more relaxed and
> > calm than the previous ones. :)
> >
> > I am sure you are aware that "la petite morte" is a
> > french expression for sex, for an orgasm, literally
> > "the little death".
>
> Why should we be aware of this ?
> "La petite mort" was an expression meaning epileptic seizures.
>
> That's a Scorpio theme, where
> > the n.node of the french revolution is, where now the
> > sun is, and where also the most french creation in
> > astrology is, namely the "Mean Black Moon Lilith",
> > apparently first considered in about 1930 in France,
> > sort of a counterpoint to Pluto, which was discovered
> > in the US in 1930. Lilith is now at about 13 Scorpio
> > and I would be quite astonished if there was no
> > conjunction to an important object in your birth chart,
> > Cujo, maybe even your sun (i.e. birth around 6 Nov),
> > with Lilith at the moment.
> >
> > Scorpio is like the guy in Dante's hell, every step
> > that tries to penetrate is a little death, brings
> > him closer to the center, only at the end it turns
> > out that the center is not as hot and steamy, as it
> > might seem to the young scorpion, but instead it is
> > cold and dead...
Oh those superficial fly-by posts of usenet. Hate them
and love them, I guess...
Sorry for the typo, "la petite mort", not "la petite morte".
Please note that Cujo's e-mail address is at petitmorte.net.
With "I am sure you are aware" I thus meant "Cujo" not the
general public, i.e. it was a singular "you", not a plural
one. No "why should we be aware of this" therefore...
Did not know that "la petite mort" also describes "epileptic
seizures", nor have I ever seen an epileptic seizure in real
life, but maybe the difference is not all that big :)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mort
: la petite mort est un moment qui peut suivre l'orgasme et
: pendant lequel on peut paraître inconscient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_little_death
: The little death is a translation from the French "la petite mort,"
: a popular reference for a sexual orgasm. The term has generally been
: interpreted to describe the post-orgasmic fainting spells[1] some
: lovers experience. Also, it can refer to the spiritual release that
: comes with orgasm, or a short period of melancholy or transcendence,
: as a result of the expenditure or spending of "life force".
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip => discoveries.pdf
(section 3.9.8 Scorpio, Themes):
: Psyche's second task [see Apuleius, The Golden Ass] is to bring back some
: fleece from fierce rams that live near a river. When she gets there, she
: is lulled into sleep by waving reeds and when she awakes, the rams are
: asleep, so that she can easily collect some fleece that have stuck to
: thorny bushes.
: Women are physically less strong than men. In order to reach their goals,
: they eventually have to give in to a man, to break the tension and to
: allow themselves to lose control for some time, to later collect the
: fruits that have been produced by men's power. Of course, also the fierce
: rams, the reeds, the thorny bushes, the river, etc. describe aspects of
: Scorpio, as well as of Mars and Aries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_little_death
: Speculations about the origin of the expression include current
: connotations of the phrase, including to sleep
:
: * Greco-Roman belief that the over-secretion of bodily fluids
: would "dry out" one of the believed four humours, leading to death
: * Islam's reference to sleep
I remember that I was visiting the family of the sister
of a good friend of mine once and the husband of the sister
at that time came from a french family. Every evening he
would shake my hand to wish me a good night, as if he was
afraid that I would not wake up again the next morning. ;)
(Side path leading to Saturn in Virgo, to Mecca's hidden treasures, etc. here)
That's it. I got all I need from usenet. :)
)o+
PS:
My odyssey ends today...
My web site will remain in the state of 2007-04-23
at 22:14 (except for what is absolutely necessary
to keep it accessible by current technology).
My personal value is not defined by what others
think about me and my work. My contributions are
unique and will some day be part of what every
child knows about the world. As far as the forces
in or out of me are concerned, who just want more
efforts by me and yet are not ready to speak up
in real life and to deliver something there, well
that is now entirely your problem.
Maybe one day I will also be able to derive the
circle of the elements or something like that from
first principles (my definition of the elements)
and be able to quantitatively prove that; in that
case I might publish in a scientific journal.
In any case, my art in public is finished now.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosphy.net
Something different.
"Uncle Al" wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >[snip crap]
>
> > My personal value is not defined by what others
> > think about me and my work.
> [snip crap]
>
> Physical reality cannot be cheated. It's hard to make a comeback when
> you haven't been anywhere.
"Have you never heard of the frog in the shallow well?"...
)o+
tadchem <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Jan 30, 6:21 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > My odyssey ends today...
> >
> > My web site will remain in the state of 2007-04-23
> > at 22:14 (except for what is absolutely necessary
> > to keep it accessible by current technology).
>
> ERROR: Server not found.
>
> > My personal value is not defined by what others
> > think about me and my work.
>
> OTOH, your *lack* of personal value IS defined by what others do *not*
> think of you or your work.
>
> > My contributions are
> > unique and will some day be part of what every
> > child knows about the world.
>
> As unique as the DNA of the stem cells you slough off in your feces.
>
> > As far as the forces
> > in or out of me are concerned, who just want more
> > efforts by me and yet are not ready to speak up
> > in real life and to deliver something there, well
> > that is now entirely your problem.
>
> News flash!!! NOTHING is about you.
>
> > Maybe one day I will also be able to derive the
> > circle of the elements or something like that from
> > first principles (my definition of the elements)
> > and be able to quantitatively prove that; in that
> > case I might publish in a scientific journal.
>
> Quantum mechanics has beaten you to that goal.
>
> > In any case, my art in public is finished now.
>
> Speaking as just another old 'art, you should 'art proudly.
>
> > )o+
> >
> > --http://www.exactphilosphy.net
> > Something different.
>
> Philosophy is an effort to develop new knowledge. It is not exact, nor
> can it be unless one already has perfect knowledge, in which case the
> objective becomes moot.
>
> Omniscience has nothing left to do.
>
> IOW, a philosopher must first concede that his personal knowledge is
> limited. Given that concession, his efforts cannot be considered to
> be "exact."
>
> Tom Davidson
> Richmond, VA
Here's a post by me to sci.physics.research from five years ago,
about quantum mechanics, decoherence and EPR... ;)
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html
)o+
In article
<1117221b-3cf2-406f-aa4d-e3418db5f62d@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"hhc314@yahoo.com" <hhc314@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 1:28 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > tadchem <tadchem@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > On Jan 30, 6:21 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > > > My odyssey ends today...
> >
> > > > My web site will remain in the state of 2007-04-23
> > > > at 22:14 (except for what is absolutely necessary
> > > > to keep it accessible by current technology).
> >
> > > ERROR: Server not found.
> >
> > > > My personal value is not defined by what others
> > > > think about me and my work.
> >
> > > OTOH, your *lack* of personal value IS defined by what others do *not*
> > > think of you or your work.
> >
> > > > My contributions are
> > > > unique and will some day be part of what every
> > > > child knows about the world.
> >
> > > As unique as the DNA of the stem cells you slough off in your feces.
> >
> > > > As far as the forces
> > > > in or out of me are concerned, who just want more
> > > > efforts by me and yet are not ready to speak up
> > > > in real life and to deliver something there, well
> > > > that is now entirely your problem.
> >
> > > News flash!!! NOTHING is about you.
> >
> > > > Maybe one day I will also be able to derive the
> > > > circle of the elements or something like that from
> > > > first principles (my definition of the elements)
> > > > and be able to quantitatively prove that; in that
> > > > case I might publish in a scientific journal.
> >
> > > Quantum mechanics has beaten you to that goal.
> >
> > > > In any case, my art in public is finished now.
> >
> > > Speaking as just another old 'art, you should 'art proudly.
> >
> > > > )o+
> >
> > > > --http://www.exactphilosphy.net
> > > > Something different.
> >
> > > Philosophy is an effort to develop new knowledge. It is not exact, nor
> > > can it be unless one already has perfect knowledge, in which case the
> > > objective becomes moot.
> >
> > > Omniscience has nothing left to do.
> >
> > > IOW, a philosopher must first concede that his personal knowledge is
> > > limited. Given that concession, his efforts cannot be considered to
> > > be "exact."
> >
> > > Tom Davidson
> > > Richmond, VA
> >
> > Here's a post by me to sci.physics.research from five years ago,
> > about quantum mechanics, decoherence and EPR... ;)
> >
> > http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html
> >
> > )o+- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> What about it, you didn't grasp the subject matter then, and their is
> no indication that you do today.
>
> Harry C.
HTTP/1.1 402 ...
Hi everybody,
I have uploaded a preview version of my web site 2009:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
What's new:
- subsection "long-range feelings"
Are feelings something that is shared between two or more
people as often implicitly assumed in everyday life, or are
feelings isolated effects in each person's brain, as it is
according to contemporary science ? Astonishingly, telling
the two possibilities experimentally apart might be a lot
harder than it might appear at first. A lot more cool stuff
in that section, see for yourself...
- subsection "interfaces and cylces"
An attempt to derive Aristotle's cycle of the elements from
first principles; fails, but not completely since it leaves
only a small number of simple possibilities open.
- section "Archive"
A collection of links to some of my previous public works,
includiny many related to (Western tropical) astrology, but
there is more, ranging from philosophy to quantum physics
(I am a physicist, by the way...;)
- section "References"
Abstract and link to a paper titled "Bipolar Change" that was
published in the Journal of Chinese Philosophy this year and
which refers to my site and its main new idea.
What's still there:
- section "elementary philosophy" and subsections
A simple model that defines 4 quantities from the immediate
experience of space and time, inspired by Kant's philosophy
and then qualitatively identifies them with the 4 elements
from ancient Greek philosophy, i.e. Fire, Air, Water, Earth.
See for yourself for more details and also the 5th element
and a cross-cultural reference to the 8 trigrams of the
Chinese oracle I Ching (or Yi Jing).
Additionally scheduled for 2009 release (5 January):
- subsection "long-range feelings"
A few refinements and some leads.
- section "elementary philosophy"
Hopefully a few simple and beautiful illustrations to make the
maybe apparently abstract ideas more tangible for most readers.
Likely in the 2010 release:
- subsection "elementary star signs"
A simple model of the 12 star signs of the (Western) zodiac in
terms of transformations between the four elements. See Archive
in the meantime for some older texts that expose this model in
some detail. Despite its simplicity, the model is not simplistic,
it does not only capture basic properties of the star signs, but
can also serve as a very useful guide for deeper analysis, as I
hope to show then...
- subsection "magic carpets"
A collection of concrete contributions to symbolic analysis,
mostly, but not only, around Western tropical astrology. See
Archive in the meantime for many such examples, albeit in a
somewhat less polished form...
Planned further into the future:
- Yearly releases (5 January), plus usually a preview in late
autumn of the previous year
- More illustrations, generally more easily accessible stuff
- Formal attempts to synthesize provable predictions from the
main model under "elementary philosophy
- Whatever might evolve...
What is not planned:
- Any further usenet activities, except something like this
announcement every year (and possibly 1 or 2 related replies)
- No replies to trolls (I am posting this to various newsgroups,
not only moderated ones, and even there I was quite astonished
lately that even at sci.physics.research someone was so scared
angry to mistake absence of evidence with evidence of absence;
what a silly type of idiots: an open issue is simply open -
no less, no more - except for austriches who put their head
into the ground like little children or old men... ;)
Alain Stalder )o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
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exactphilosophy.net 2009
What's new this year:
* evolutions => long-range feelings
How a simple hypothetical assumption, namely that there is a sort
of unconscious communication between people, yields a picture of
reality in which astrology, collective unconscious, god or gods,
precognition, free will and fate, and a lot more similar things,
would have a natural part in the scientific view of the world,
and would also explain why formally proving the existence of such
phenomena has essentially failed so far...
* elementary philosophy => space and time
Added a photo and a simple illustration of the basic idea.
* evolutions => elemental cycles
"How Aristotle's cycle of the elements might grow naturally from
the ideas presented previously, at least as one of just very few
simple possibilities."
* evolutions => magic carpets
A short collection of some of my previous public contributions,
most of them to usenet and related to astrology.
* More little changes
See for yourself, the site consists only of about 15 pages or so,
hence you can get a detailed overview in less than 5 minutes...
In the queue for next year:
* More stuff directly related to astrology, like my simple model of
the star signs in terms on transitions between the elements, and
some more original ideas. Stay tuned... :)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Hi everybody,
There are two new and relatively long articles on my web site.
Actually I only wrote them this and last weekend, i.e. around
that recent eclipse... ;)
- elementary star signs
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/starsigns.html
"Reveals an interesting structure in the signs of the
western zodiac, of which astonishingly nobody is aware."
- magic carpets
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/magic.html
"How logic and association can be used to creatively explore
symbolic systems, like astrology, in a fairly structured and
controlled way. Presents lots of new cool examples, mostly
related to Western tropical astrology, but the method would
be generally useful and could likely be formalized..."
Enjoy,
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Drue Beall wrote (25 Oct 2009):
> Here is my info:
>
> DOB: 02/04/1962 @ 8:22 pm,
> POB: Lynwood, ca. LOS ANGELES COUNTY
>
> Thanks
I have seen in your public google profile that you have also very
recently posted your birth data to other groups. Just in case you are
not aware of it, there has been some discussion around your birth
chart at alt.astrology.moderated:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/0c384c481bea07a3
It does not center so much around your chart - in many respects the
discussion was more between astrologers about how a chart should be
read (but at the example of your chart), but maybe you can still find
something helpful or interesting there. One poster, "Pedantus" noticed
that your birth chart is very similar to the one of country singer and
writer Clint Black:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Black,_Clint
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Black
http://www.clintblack.com/
As far as I remember, almost all astrologers who commented, suspected
also that you might do something artistic (music, etc.), not
necessarily as a profession, but would be in some way connected to
art, or that doing something artistic would somehow give you more
balance or stability in life if you did it (or maybe the latter part
is more my interpretation ;).
Actually, you may prefer to read your chart yourself. First steps are
not so difficult. You could start at www.astro.com ( and read what all
the planets, signs and aspects very roughly mean,
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_intro_e.htm
and apply it to your birth chart,
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sz2q88EBsCI/AAAAAAAAAXc/WeOiTJXa0Tc/aquarius-cubed.gif
What astrologers do is often just that, but based on more reading and
direct experience of chart vs. person.
There is also a public forum at astro.com with a section for posting
charts for a free reading. Likely more "civilized" than usenet, but
maybe also less dedicated in a way. Matter of taste, you can always
take a look at previous answers to posts there (You need to register
to post, but reading is freely possible). And astro.com offers also
computer generated analyses of charts (the ones that cost are probably
as good as you can get in this world today, but nothing is perfect and
without bias, even there, again matter of taste in the end, they have
sample reports to get an idea).
I hope you don't mind, I have also been so free to google a few
minutes for your name and e-mail. Let me just say this: Until a few
years ago there was an astrologer who posted in usenet and even
moderated one of the groups for some time, who reminded me at least
according to these public bits of you: Female, born in 1961 in
California, has been a strong supporter of Bush Jr. (at least until a
few years ago), and as far as I could tell also relatively religious
(Christian). As far as I could tell, she did not feel at all that
doing astrology was somewhat at odds with the rest of her life. And
good luck and best wishes with your husband and family - if one thing
is clear to an astrologer from your chart, it is that because you have
*so many* planets at one place, things that happen will happen more
focussed in your life than in the lives of most other people. It is
also so that there is currently (in the world, not your personal
chart) what astrologers call a "hard aspect", a square in this case,
between Saturn and Pluto. The last time there was a hard aspect
between these two planets (an opposition), was around 2001/02 (i.e.
9/11, start of the war in Afghanistan, etc.). And also the northern
lunar node was in Capricorn both times. One of the advantages of
astrology is that it can tell you how long things last. The mentioned
square, for example, will carry on into summer 2010, if I remember
correctly.
I hope this can be of some help and is not considered too intrusive.
(I am a Swiss physicist, see links below.)
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Feb 9, 11:54 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Feb 9, 10:43 am, CFA wrote:
>
> > Silveen wrote:
> > >Ken,
> > >why are you acting this way when you post at a.a. ?
> > >why don´t you stay over at AAmod, go back to being,
> > >what I would see as more "normal".
>
> He is, his normal self is a vindictive power hungry Scorpio who thinks
> he knows more than he does.
Ken/CFA's first reply in the "Am I 100% Aquarian" thread at
alt.astrology.moderated was the following:
[...]
* >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
*
* "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
* Jupiter?
Of course, in the very specific and concrete way you count elements,
that was simply a false statement. But seen from a Scorpio, I guess,
what the term "low water" evokes emotionally in connection with the
chart at hand at this time is simply not right. Let me try to see
maybe an additional angle in addition to what has been said so far...
People usually come to astrologers not at any arbitrary point in their
life, but usually when they are stuck somewhere, often desperate,
don't know what to do. (Contradict me if I am wrong, but this is my
feeling and experience.)
Now, a person with so many planets in a single sign, would in my
expectation typically not be moved very much by transits, simply
because one planet in opposition or at a square (say) would have
little impact on their combined force. I presume in the chart for
Uranus and n.node in Leo this is not really a major problem, combined
"they" can air to their frustration from time to time, no longer term
problems. But with Neptune it might really be different, like small
movements of the earth's crust in California (earthquakes are made by
Poseidon/Neptune in mythology), might build up and have trouble to
come to the surface, until at some critical point it all becomes
unstable.
So, if you would look at such a chart at any arbitrary time, "low
water" would be often a fair assessment, but in the typical moment
when such a person comes to visit an astrologer, "low water" might be
the wrong overall message. Sure, you can also get there by first
counting elements, but that may due to special circumstances in
typically most visiting clients be not the most efficient approach,
hence not necessarily the best approach for the needs of the client.
I know you (Ed) are very good and experienced at what you are doing
professionally, but even you are biased, have blind spots, and others
can contribute there. Else you might really end someday like Orion in
mythology (the constellation is very close to Taurus, your sun sign).
I came to this associatively because Bob Officer used the words
"bully", "coward" and "piss" in a recent post - the first are clearly
associations with Taurus (bull/cow), while Orion is etymologically
close to "Urine" (and also Iran, Aryan, Aries, even Alain, my first
name).
Tonite this scene came to my mind and felt like related to the
situation, don't know to who of the posters here, but anyway maybe
someone (or several) can do something with it:
It was the long scene near the end of Wim Wender's Paris Texas, where
the guy speaks with his ex wife face to face, but separated by a
mirror that is only transparent from one way to the other (from his to
her side).
)o+
> > So Ed's bullying is okay with you? Got it.
>
> So when I state my opinion forcefully and with conviction this makes
> me a bully?
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
On Feb 10, 10:11 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 11:54 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 9, 10:43 am, CFA wrote:
>
> > > Silveen wrote:
> > > >Ken,
> > > >why are you acting this way when you post at a.a. ?
> > > >why don´t you stay over at AAmod, go back to being,
> > > >what I would see as more "normal".
>
> > He is, his normal self is a vindictive power hungry Scorpio who thinks
> > he knows more than he does.
>
> Ken/CFA's first reply in the "Am I 100% Aquarian" thread at
> alt.astrology.moderated was the following:
>
> [...]
> * >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
> *
> * "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
> * Jupiter?
>
> Of course, in the very specific and concrete way you count elements,
> that was simply a false statement. But seen from a Scorpio, I guess,
> what the term "low water" evokes emotionally in connection with the
> chart at hand at this time is simply not right. Let me try to see
> maybe an additional angle in addition to what has been said so far...
>
> People usually come to astrologers not at any arbitrary point in their
> life, but usually when they are stuck somewhere, often desperate,
> don't know what to do. (Contradict me if I am wrong, but this is my
> feeling and experience.)
>
> Now, a person with so many planets in a single sign, would in my
> expectation typically not be moved very much by transits, simply
> because one planet in opposition or at a square (say) would have
> little impact on their combined force. I presume in the chart for
> Uranus and n.node in Leo this is not really a major problem, combined
> "they" can air to their frustration from time to time, no longer term
> problems. But with Neptune it might really be different, like small
> movements of the earth's crust in California (earthquakes are made by
> Poseidon/Neptune in mythology), might build up and have trouble to
> come to the surface, until at some critical point it all becomes
> unstable.
>
> So, if you would look at such a chart at any arbitrary time, "low
> water" would be often a fair assessment, but in the typical moment
> when such a person comes to visit an astrologer, "low water" might be
> the wrong overall message. Sure, you can also get there by first
> counting elements, but that may due to special circumstances in
> typically most visiting clients be not the most efficient approach,
> hence not necessarily the best approach for the needs of the client.
>
> I know you (Ed) are very good and experienced at what you are doing
> professionally, but even you are biased, have blind spots, and others
> can contribute there. Else you might really end someday like Orion in
> mythology (the constellation is very close to Taurus, your sun sign).
> I came to this associatively because Bob Officer used the words
> "bully", "coward" and "piss" in a recent post - the first are clearly
> associations with Taurus (bull/cow), while Orion is etymologically
> close to "Urine" (and also Iran, Aryan, Aries, even Alain, my first
> name).
>
> Tonite this scene came to my mind and felt like related to the
> situation, don't know to who of the posters here, but anyway maybe
> someone (or several) can do something with it:
>
> It was the long scene near the end of Wim Wender's Paris Texas, where
> the guy speaks with his ex wife face to face, but separated by a
> mirror that is only transparent from one way to the other (from his to
> her side).
>
> )o+
>
> > > So Ed's bullying is okay with you? Got it.
>
> > So when I state my opinion forcefully and with conviction this makes
> > me a bully?
>
> > Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> > © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> > Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> > Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> > Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
I think I should mention that I have a sun-Neptune square in my birth
chart... Since I am not a professional astrologer, I am also not
trying to make any conclusive statements, just maybe giving some
impulses that might help others to come closer to that...
On Feb 10, 11:09 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:11 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 9, 11:54 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 9, 10:43 am, CFA wrote:
>
> > > > Silveen wrote:
> > > > >Ken,
> > > > >why are you acting this way when you post at a.a. ?
> > > > >why don´t you stay over at AAmod, go back to being,
> > > > >what I would see as more "normal".
>
> > > He is, his normal self is a vindictive power hungry Scorpio who thinks
> > > he knows more than he does.
>
> > Ken/CFA's first reply in the "Am I 100% Aquarian" thread at
> > alt.astrology.moderated was the following:
>
> > [...]
> > * >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
> > *
> > * "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
> > * Jupiter?
>
> > Of course, in the very specific and concrete way you count elements,
> > that was simply a false statement. But seen from a Scorpio, I guess,
> > what the term "low water" evokes emotionally in connection with the
> > chart at hand at this time is simply not right. Let me try to see
> > maybe an additional angle in addition to what has been said so far...
>
> > People usually come to astrologers not at any arbitrary point in their
> > life, but usually when they are stuck somewhere, often desperate,
> > don't know what to do. (Contradict me if I am wrong, but this is my
> > feeling and experience.)
>
> > Now, a person with so many planets in a single sign, would in my
> > expectation typically not be moved very much by transits, simply
> > because one planet in opposition or at a square (say) would have
> > little impact on their combined force. I presume in the chart for
> > Uranus and n.node in Leo this is not really a major problem, combined
> > "they" can air to their frustration from time to time, no longer term
> > problems. But with Neptune it might really be different, like small
> > movements of the earth's crust in California (earthquakes are made by
> > Poseidon/Neptune in mythology), might build up and have trouble to
> > come to the surface, until at some critical point it all becomes
> > unstable.
>
> > So, if you would look at such a chart at any arbitrary time, "low
> > water" would be often a fair assessment, but in the typical moment
> > when such a person comes to visit an astrologer, "low water" might be
> > the wrong overall message. Sure, you can also get there by first
> > counting elements, but that may due to special circumstances in
> > typically most visiting clients be not the most efficient approach,
> > hence not necessarily the best approach for the needs of the client.
>
> > I know you (Ed) are very good and experienced at what you are doing
> > professionally, but even you are biased, have blind spots, and others
> > can contribute there. Else you might really end someday like Orion in
> > mythology (the constellation is very close to Taurus, your sun sign).
> > I came to this associatively because Bob Officer used the words
> > "bully", "coward" and "piss" in a recent post - the first are clearly
> > associations with Taurus (bull/cow), while Orion is etymologically
> > close to "Urine" (and also Iran, Aryan, Aries, even Alain, my first
> > name).
>
> > Tonite this scene came to my mind and felt like related to the
> > situation, don't know to who of the posters here, but anyway maybe
> > someone (or several) can do something with it:
>
> > It was the long scene near the end of Wim Wender's Paris Texas, where
> > the guy speaks with his ex wife face to face, but separated by a
> > mirror that is only transparent from one way to the other (from his to
> > her side).
>
> > )o+
>
> > > > So Ed's bullying is okay with you? Got it.
>
> > > So when I state my opinion forcefully and with conviction this makes
> > > me a bully?
>
> > > Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> > > © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> > > Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> > > Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> > > Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
>
> I think I should mention that I have a sun-Neptune square in my birth
> chart... Since I am not a professional astrologer, I am also not
> trying to make any conclusive statements, just maybe giving some
> impulses that might help others to come closer to that...
One more thing, since this is unmoderated usenet I hope some extreme
freedom without appearing too weird may be allowed, a post from older
times (maybe my s.node conjunct Neptune in Scporio), only surviving in
tiny quoted fragments:
hellboy (24 September 2004):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology/browse_thread/thread/fc3d259dc0a3511b/3886c616202cc583
I meant "files his horns to blend in" in that post, of course. The
horns were associated with the constellation of Libra in some pre-
Greek culture (sorry no longer have that part of the post).
I'm out of here and remember how hellboy (the _good guy_ in the movie,
with his chirally asymmetric hands (like me at the moment, my
Cheiron's at 26 Pisces), protecting in one scene little cats in a card
box with his relatively tiny left hand and fighting some evil creature
with his strong right hand) got his girlfriend back from the other
side in the movie... ;) [he threatended to go there too...]
Oh yeah, to end this thread now soon (if Godwin's Law* is any good),
let me mention that both Kant and Hitler had the sun in Taurus... :)
)o+
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> I'm not sure why you posted anything you have here.
.
On Feb 10, 11:37 pm, CFA wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >Ken/CFA's first reply in the "Am I 100% Aquarian" thread at
> >alt.astrology.moderated was the following:
>
> >[...]
> >* >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
> >*
> >* "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
> >* Jupiter?
>
> >Of course, in the very specific and concrete way you count elements,
> >that was simply a false statement. But seen from a Scorpio, I guess,
> >what the term "low water" evokes emotionally in connection with the
> >chart at hand at this time is simply not right.
>
> It could be a Scorpio bias, but I have fire, earth, air, and water
> significators (sign placements, house placements, and aspects) in my
> chart. My elemental table adds up to Capricorn.
OK.
> >Let me try to see
> >maybe an additional angle in addition to what has been said so far...
>
> >People usually come to astrologers not at any arbitrary point in their
> >life, but usually when they are stuck somewhere, often desperate,
> >don't know what to do. (Contradict me if I am wrong, but this is my
> >feeling and experience.)
>
> >Now, a person with so many planets in a single sign, would in my
> >expectation typically not be moved very much by transits, simply
> >because one planet in opposition or at a square (say) would have
> >little impact on their combined force.
>
> Most people with packed planets like this report pretty much the exact
> opposite- that their lives often blow completely up, or at least
> portions of it.
My personal feeling and estimation would have been that this would
happen only very rarely (every 10 to 15 years or so) with a chart like
that, but I may well be wrong.
> >I presume in the chart for
> >Uranus and n.node in Leo this is not really a major problem, combined
> >"they" can air to their frustration from time to time, no longer term
> >problems. But with Neptune it might really be different, like small
> >movements of the earth's crust in California (earthquakes are made by
> >Poseidon/Neptune in mythology), might build up and have trouble to
> >come to the surface, until at some critical point it all becomes
> >unstable.
>
> >So, if you would look at such a chart at any arbitrary time, "low
> >water" would be often a fair assessment,
>
> In any kind of tropical geocentric astrology or astrologers I've ever
> been exposed to, since 1980, that would not ever be a fair assessment-
> except to Ed, apparently.
>
> But it might be easy to find out. The person who owns the chart in
> question posted here today.
Yes, certainly a better approach than discussing the length of the
nose of the Chinese Emperor (practically nobody was allowed to see it
in Ancient China, so conducting a survey among all Chinese would be
very relevant in the end...)
)o+
>
>
> >but in the typical moment
> >when such a person comes to visit an astrologer, "low water" might be
> >the wrong overall message. Sure, you can also get there by first
> >counting elements, but that may due to special circumstances in
> >typically most visiting clients be not the most efficient approach,
> >hence not necessarily the best approach for the needs of the client.
>
> >I know you (Ed) are very good and experienced at what you are doing
> >professionally, but even you are biased, have blind spots, and others
> >can contribute there. Else you might really end someday like Orion in
> >mythology (the constellation is very close to Taurus, your sun sign).
> >I came to this associatively because Bob Officer used the words
> >"bully", "coward" and "piss" in a recent post - the first are clearly
> >associations with Taurus (bull/cow), while Orion is etymologically
> >close to "Urine" (and also Iran, Aryan, Aries, even Alain, my first
> >name).
>
> >Tonite this scene came to my mind and felt like related to the
> >situation, don't know to who of the posters here, but anyway maybe
> >someone (or several) can do something with it:
>
> >It was the long scene near the end of Wim Wender's Paris Texas, where
> >the guy speaks with his ex wife face to face, but separated by a
> >mirror that is only transparent from one way to the other (from his to
> >her side).
>
> >)o+
>
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
PS: In German mythology there seems to be a story of an "eternal
brother fight", where they just keep on fighting and are still
fighting when the myth ends. After Mercury having dwelled so long now
in Capricorn, it has finally moved into Aquarius, so a more unified
view may now become possible (two-faced god Janus-Capricorn-January
looks both ways, wihle Februs-Aquarius-February looks only one way,
although maybe the wrong way sometimes...). And there is Neptune on
the US's natal moon (Sibly chart). All three German Reich's had the
sun either in Capricorn or Aquarius, which brings me back to Nazi's
and Hitler. Don't blame the messenger... :)
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Feb 11, 5:32 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:19 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > > I'm not sure why you posted anything you have here.
>
> Well, that's a good answer, repost something everyone could read the
> first time.
You missed my reply, I tried to make a point ("."), attention to
detail (sorry, picky Pluto in Virgo).
Side Remark: I am sure the devils' advocate would say that I tried to
copy one of the commas (",") that Cujo offered in an earlier post in
this thread, but was too stupid to get even that right... :)
> I guess I'm done discussing. Have fun.
Not really (having fun).
> "Earth falls far away
> New life away
> Time it has no day
> New life away
> Here, is your dream and now how does it feel?
> No words will go with you,
> And now what is real.
>
> With the eyes of a child
> You must come out and see
> That your world's spinning 'round
> And through life you will be,
> A small part
> Of a hope
> Of a love
> That exists...
> In the eyes of a child you will see."
> The Moody Blues, "Eyes of a Child"
Jimi Hendrix, Villanova Junction, Woodstock '69:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8608497764274521749
)o+
--
* Jimi Hendrix and "Gipsy Sun and Rainbows" Band, Woodstock, Monday 18
August 1969, roughly around 10.55 AM or so, see
http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/music0_woodstock.html (and
also e.g. Wikipedia).
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
On Feb 11, 10:05 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 11, 5:32 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 10:19 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure why you posted anything you have here.
>
> > Well, that's a good answer, repost something everyone could read the
> > first time.
>
> You missed my reply, I tried to make a point ("."), attention to
> detail (sorry, picky Pluto in Virgo).
>
> Side Remark: I am sure the devils' advocate would say that I tried to
> copy one of the commas (",") that Cujo offered in an earlier post in
> this thread, but was too stupid to get even that right... :)
>
> > I guess I'm done discussing. Have fun.
>
> Not really (having fun).
>
> > "Earth falls far away
> > New life away
> > Time it has no day
> > New life away
> > Here, is your dream and now how does it feel?
> > No words will go with you,
> > And now what is real.
>
> > With the eyes of a child
> > You must come out and see
> > That your world's spinning 'round
> > And through life you will be,
> > A small part
> > Of a hope
> > Of a love
> > That exists...
> > In the eyes of a child you will see."
> > The Moody Blues, "Eyes of a Child"
>
> Jimi Hendrix, Villanova Junction, Woodstock '69:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8608497764274521749
>
> )o+
> --
> * Jimi Hendrix and "Gipsy Sun and Rainbows" Band, Woodstock, Monday 18
> August 1969, roughly around 10.55 AM or so, seehttp://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/music0_woodstock.html(and
> also e.g. Wikipedia).> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> > © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> > Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> > Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> > The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
http://video.google.ch/videoplay?docid=8608497764274521749&ei=kHJ0S8DaGoGG-AaOt7nWBw
On Feb 11, 11:04 pm, CFA wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >On Feb 10, 11:37 pm, CFA wrote:
> >> Hermes wrote:
> >> >Now, a person with so many planets in a single sign, would in my
> >> >expectation typically not be moved very much by transits, simply
> >> >because one planet in opposition or at a square (say) would have
> >> >little impact on their combined force.
>
> >> Most people with packed planets like this report pretty much the exact
> >> opposite- that their lives often blow completely up, or at least
> >> portions of it.
>
> >My personal feeling and estimation would have been that this would
> >happen only very rarely (every 10 to 15 years or so) with a chart like
> >that, but I may well be wrong.
>
> It could happen much more often than that. Consider any of the four
> outermost planets making a conjunction, square, or opposition by
> transit.
Yes, I see what you mean. My feeling was just that the forces of a
single transiting outer planet might be limited in the sense that if
it is in hard aspect to many natal planets, it might have to split its
forces, so from the point of view of each natal planet there might be
little force felt - but maybe that is simply not how it works with
aspects - maybe even especially in the case of transiting outer
(collective) planets like Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, in contrast to a
transiting inner (personal) planet - outer/"collective" could in that
sense imply almost unlimited "force" provided by the collective.
OK, I guess I have to remain open to the question due to limited
direct experience. I hope someday it will be possible to hear some
elements of the story from Drue directly (and best wishes in the
meantime). :)
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
)o+
Something it noticed, which might give this whole thread (here and at
a.a.mod) some more Aquarian clarity:
A pyramid, which to Edmond Wollmann (see "Great Pyramids [...]" thread
at a.a) is a symbol of the 4 elements and the 3 characters, and the
basis of his approach to reading a chart, seen from top (polar view,
see Pedantus in sister thread at a.a.mod) looks like a grand square,
including the lines for the oppositions (grand cross), like this:
http://www.virtuescience.com/great-pyramid-top.gif
The cardinal points in ancient Egypt where the pyramids where built in
the Age of Taurus were what is now the fixed signs (e.g. Sphinxes):
East: Taurus
South: Leo
West: Scorpio
North: Aquarius
So north, like the bear of California would be related most to
Aquarius of these four (ursa major/minor near the poles). The four
angels/angles of L.A. also fit into this theme. Or the beginning of
the gold rush in California (sun in Aquarius). The people maybe most
involved in posting in this thread have suns in these signs:
Taurus: Edmond Wollmann
Leo: Pedantus and me (and alt.astrology)
Scorpio: Ken/CFA (and alt.astrology.moderated)
Aquarius: druebeall
What is missing in the birth chart to bring it balance, is certainly
not Aquarius. There is no Taurus, so that might lack most, also
Neptune may well be enough of an issue to require additional balance,
while Leo is likely the least problematic of these, with Uranus and
the n.node there.
What has been mentioned relatively little so far Pluto in Virgo (which
is the sun sign of the state of California).
Certainly not the whole story, as an Aquarian one-size-fits-all
approximation maybe not all that bad... (I hope to present a more
poetic version of just the general ideas at alt.astrology.moderated
sometime in the not so far future, and thanks to Pedantus for the
insights he presented there, which only made this view possible.)
)o+
On Feb 13, 12:49 am, CFA wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >On Feb 11, 11:04 pm, CFA wrote:
> >> Hermes wrote:
> >> >On Feb 10, 11:37 pm, CFA wrote:
> >> >> Hermes wrote:
> >> >> >Now, a person with so many planets in a single sign, would in my
> >> >> >expectation typically not be moved very much by transits, simply
> >> >> >because one planet in opposition or at a square (say) would have
> >> >> >little impact on their combined force.
>
> >> >> Most people with packed planets like this report pretty much the exact
> >> >> opposite- that their lives often blow completely up, or at least
> >> >> portions of it.
>
> >> >My personal feeling and estimation would have been that this would
> >> >happen only very rarely (every 10 to 15 years or so) with a chart like
> >> >that, but I may well be wrong.
>
> >> It could happen much more often than that. Consider any of the four
> >> outermost planets making a conjunction, square, or opposition by
> >> transit.
>
> >Yes, I see what you mean. My feeling was just that the forces of a
> >single transiting outer planet might be limited in the sense that if
> >it is in hard aspect to many natal planets, it might have to split its
> >forces, so from the point of view of each natal planet there might be
> >little force felt - but maybe that is simply not how it works with
> >aspects -
>
> The image that comes to mind is gravity or some form of magnetism
> between planets, and the more planets, the greater the force involved.
Makes sense to me, no splitting of forces in that image, it's not
like, say, Mars's gravitational pull on Earth would be reduced because
Mars also has to pull on Venus, etc., the gravitational force between
two planets is just mass_1 x mass_2 / (distance x distance) x
gravitational constant. What could be said, however, in the case of
this chart, is that planets not part of the stellium in Aquarius feel
the largest pull in a particular direction (forces add up into a
particular direction). Uranus and Pluto are not in aspect to the
stellium, so they would feel no pull from there, but Neptune certainly
does, i.e. Neptune could be seen as the most "moved" planet in the
chart. The same could be said of any planet that transits the stellium
or any person druebeall meets with planets at an aspect to the
stellium, so that she might usually rather move others than be moved
by them, like maybe also apparent in the reactions in this thread and
the one at a.a.mod?
> > maybe even especially in the case of transiting outer
> >(collective) planets like Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, in contrast to a
> >transiting inner (personal) planet -
>
> I don't think it matters what the transiting planet is, except that,
> say, Uranus moves slower and has more pronounced effects than Venus.
OK, in this image definitely so.
> >outer/"collective" could in that
> >sense imply almost unlimited "force" provided by the collective.
>
> >OK, I guess I have to remain open to the question due to limited
> >direct experience. I hope someday it will be possible to hear some
> >elements of the story from Drue directly (and best wishes in the
> >meantime). :)
>
> I have 5 planets from 15° to 24° cardinal. It's always a fun ride when
> transits move through that little slice of the chart.
I only have 4 there. :(
What I thought of doing one day is to plot a series of transit
pictures to given birth charts to get a visual idea of how susceptible
each chart is to transits, i.e. synastry charts for the synastry to
just one planet and with that planet at different degrees, say in 3 to
5 degree steps or so. Would reflect maybe most immediately mood swings
during a month (since the moon moves at a constant speed, unlike most
other planets).
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
)o+
I wrote:
> A pyramid, which to Edmond Wollmann (see "Great Pyramids [...]" thread
> at a.a) is a symbol of the 4 elements and the 3 characters, and the
> basis of his approach to reading a chart, seen from top (polar view,
> see Pedantus in sister thread at a.a.mod) looks like a grand square,
> including the lines for the oppositions (grand cross), like this:
>
> http://www.virtuescience.com/great-pyramid-top.gif
Note to Edmond Wollmann:
When I wrote this and the corresponding post to a.a.mod (same image),
I was _not_ consciously aware that this air picture of a pyramid looks
very much like your own birth chart*, where there is a grand cross
(Venus in Aries, Uranus/Jupiter in Cancer, Neptune in Libra, moon in
Capricorn), even the angle at which it is tilted is similar. I was
just following my intuition/feelings or in other words carpets of
associations. But apparently such things really work! :)
)o+
--
* Edmond Wollmann's birth chart at one of his sites:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/edmond.htm (the square looks not
really square there, more like a rectangle, but I also do not want
that much of a square about it), and his birth place and year, also at
one of his sites: http://www.e-wollmann.com/
On Feb 13, 8:22 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wrote:
> > A pyramid, which to Edmond Wollmann (see "Great Pyramids [...]" thread
> > at a.a) is a symbol of the 4 elements and the 3 characters, and the
> > basis of his approach to reading a chart, seen from top (polar view,
> > see Pedantus in sister thread at a.a.mod) looks like a grand square,
> > including the lines for the oppositions (grand cross), like this:
>
> > http://www.virtuescience.com/great-pyramid-top.gif
>
> Note to Edmond Wollmann:
> When I wrote this and the corresponding post to a.a.mod (same image),
> I was _not_ consciously aware that this air picture of a pyramid looks
> very much like your own birth chart*, where there is a grand cross
> (Venus in Aries, Uranus/Jupiter in Cancer, Neptune in Libra, moon in
> Capricorn), even the angle at which it is tilted is similar. I was
> just following my intuition/feelings or in other words carpets of
> associations. But apparently such things really work! :)
>
> )o+
>
> --
> * Edmond Wollmann's birth chart at one of his sites:http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/edmond.htm(the square looks not
> really square there, more like a rectangle, but I also do not want
> that much of a square about it), and his birth place and year, also at
> one of his sites:http://www.e-wollmann.com/
Here is an image that I feel might mirror me (or maybe not, I may
obviously not be the best person to make that kind of assertion):
http://www.cmp.ucr.edu/exhibitions/mirror/gallery03.html
Ansel Adams, Untitled (Freeway cloverleaf), 1966
From the exhibition "rear view images" at the California Museum of
Photography (in Riverside, west of L.A.)
Not unlikely the photo was shot in California or even in L.A.
And my birth chart:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sw_wR3Qj60I/AAAAAAAAACc/o1s4ErIFCho/birthchart.gif
The "number 8" in the photo reminds of my nodal axis, with Pyhtia at
the n.node and Neptune (photography) at the south node. And I think
also the harmony of the trines is sort of expressed by the roads on
the photo.
I first saw this photo in the french magazine "Photo" several years
ago...
)o+
On Feb 13, 11:58 pm, CFA wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >On Feb 13, 12:49 am, CFA wrote:
> >> Hermes wrote:
> >> >On Feb 11, 11:04 pm, CFA wrote:
> >> >> Hermes wrote:
> >> >> >On Feb 10, 11:37 pm, CFA wrote:
> >> >> >> Hermes wrote:
> >> >> >> >Now, a person with so many planets in a single sign, would in my
> >> >> >> >expectation typically not be moved very much by transits, simply
> >> >> >> >because one planet in opposition or at a square (say) would have
> >> >> >> >little impact on their combined force.
>
> >> >> >> Most people with packed planets like this report pretty much the exact
> >> >> >> opposite- that their lives often blow completely up, or at least
> >> >> >> portions of it.
>
> >> >> >My personal feeling and estimation would have been that this would
> >> >> >happen only very rarely (every 10 to 15 years or so) with a chart like
> >> >> >that, but I may well be wrong.
>
> >> >> It could happen much more often than that. Consider any of the four
> >> >> outermost planets making a conjunction, square, or opposition by
> >> >> transit.
>
> >> >Yes, I see what you mean. My feeling was just that the forces of a
> >> >single transiting outer planet might be limited in the sense that if
> >> >it is in hard aspect to many natal planets, it might have to split its
> >> >forces, so from the point of view of each natal planet there might be
> >> >little force felt - but maybe that is simply not how it works with
> >> >aspects -
>
> >> The image that comes to mind is gravity or some form of magnetism
> >> between planets, and the more planets, the greater the force involved.
>
> >Makes sense to me, no splitting of forces in that image, it's not
> >like, say, Mars's gravitational pull on Earth would be reduced because
> >Mars also has to pull on Venus, etc., the gravitational force between
> >two planets is just mass_1 x mass_2 / (distance x distance) x
> >gravitational constant. What could be said, however, in the case of
> >this chart, is that planets not part of the stellium in Aquarius feel
> >the largest pull in a particular direction (forces add up into a
> >particular direction). Uranus and Pluto are not in aspect to the
> >stellium, so they would feel no pull from there, but Neptune certainly
> >does, i.e. Neptune could be seen as the most "moved" planet in the
> >chart. The same could be said of any planet that transits the stellium
> >or any person druebeall meets with planets at an aspect to the
> >stellium, so that she might usually rather move others than be moved
> >by them, like maybe also apparent in the reactions in this thread and
> >the one at a.a.mod?
>
> That might just be mood-based. Sometimes I want to move things or
> people, sometimes I want to be moved or convinced.
OK, I agree, may well be so.
> >> > maybe even especially in the case of transiting outer
> >> >(collective) planets like Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, in contrast to a
> >> >transiting inner (personal) planet -
>
> >> I don't think it matters what the transiting planet is, except that,
> >> say, Uranus moves slower and has more pronounced effects than Venus.
>
> >OK, in this image definitely so.
>
> >> >outer/"collective" could in that
> >> >sense imply almost unlimited "force" provided by the collective.
>
> >> >OK, I guess I have to remain open to the question due to limited
> >> >direct experience. I hope someday it will be possible to hear some
> >> >elements of the story from Drue directly (and best wishes in the
> >> >meantime). :)
>
> >> I have 5 planets from 15° to 24° cardinal. It's always a fun ride when
> >> transits move through that little slice of the chart.
>
> >I only have 4 there. :(
>
> Actually I do, too. But I was counting the Asc (but not the Moon's
> nodes). I'm still not sure you're missing much. I guess it would
> depend on the planets.
I was curious to see your chart and found it (publicly) archived,
corresponding to the place I remembered to have seen it several years
ago, I hope you don't mind me much doing so. My moon and MC in Aries
are on your n.node. (Edmond Wollmann's sun-Saturn is on my nodal axis
in taurus-scorpio). Only saw the ascii plot of your chart, so had to
"rectify" time and place - looks like you were born not so far away
from Paris, Texas?
> >What I thought of doing one day is to plot a series of transit
> >pictures to given birth charts to get a visual idea of how susceptible
> >each chart is to transits, i.e. synastry charts for the synastry to
> >just one planet and with that planet at different degrees, say in 3 to
> >5 degree steps or so. Would reflect maybe most immediately mood swings
> >during a month (since the moon moves at a constant speed, unlike most
> >other planets).
>
> 45° and 60° graphic ephemeris, a la Ebertin? The 45° is my favorite.
> Plot one or multiple charts to transits and to each other on one sheet
> of paper.
OK, interesting. Guess I don't have to "reinvent the wheel" each and
every time, cardinal planets or not.
> I can see moods being represented by all the planets. Some moods are
> just longer than others :-)
Yes, sure. Just wanted to point out that some objects transit at a
constant speed (moon, sun, mean black moon lilith, mean nodes
(backwards)), while the rest does change in speed, does retrograde and
station, which might depending on the definition of "mood" (I guess
etymologically the root is "moon") make the experience a bit less
"moody" in that sense, but maybe that is just my moon on the MC (and
at the tip of a yod to the 3 collective planets) speaking... ;)
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
Thanks for the direct replies. And happy Valentine's Day to
everybody :)
)o+
--
PS: I have seen now that your posts here have the "x-no-archive" set.
If you would like me to remove one of my replies here from google's
archive (or maybe I would afterwards repost them partially without
quoting you, and here and there with less text by me), just say so,
but I guess that won't keep others from possibly replying in the near
future.
On Feb 16, 6:06 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Feb 13, 11:22 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I wrote:
> > > A pyramid, which to Edmond Wollmann (see "Great Pyramids [...]" thread
> > > at a.a) is a symbol of the 4 elements and the 3 characters, and the
> > > basis of his approach to reading a chart, seen from top (polar view,
> > > see Pedantus in sister thread at a.a.mod) looks like a grand square,
> > > including the lines for the oppositions (grand cross), like this:
>
> > > http://www.virtuescience.com/great-pyramid-top.gif
>
> The pyramid, in both Maya and Egyptian reflects the Cardinal points,
> not fixed.
>
> > Note to Edmond Wollmann:
> > When I wrote this and the corresponding post to a.a.mod (same image),
> > I was _not_ consciously aware that this air picture of a pyramid looks
> > very much like your own birth chart*, where there is a grand cross
>
> No, it "looks like" the four Cardinal points which initiate
> "beingness" or identity. You seem to have a Pendantus problem in that
> you go all over the place. Take a breath, learn the detailed analysis
> procedures to delineate a chart or you are just going to keep going in
> circles. You seem to lack discipline in learning first and espousing
> philosophies after.
>
> > (Venus in Aries, Uranus/Jupiter in Cancer, Neptune in Libra, moon in
> > Capricorn), even the angle at which it is tilted is similar. I was
> > just following my intuition/feelings or in other words carpets of
> > associations. But apparently such things really work! :)
> > )o+
>
> Anything works if you piece it togetrher like an old quilt. Not sure
> why you use the Mercury symbol at the end of your posts, you act more
> like a Neptunian, not Mercurial (logic, facts, methodology).
> Here I tried to teach Pendantus how to read a chart, but he still goes
> on with his psychological gibberish to cover up the fact that he
> doesn't know how to delineate a chart either. (PS I am not grouchy, I
> am just more down to Earth than you all seem to be).
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.metapsych/msg/907255998d...
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
I am actually doing something extremely simple in my reasoning, I use
association, in the way exposed in the "magic carpets" article that
you can find via my google profile. I am just cooking with water, plus
maybe a tiny "drop" of experience and magic added here and there.
Hermes - Mercury - )o+ is the messenger of Zeus - Jupiter - |2. The
messenger just runs around between heaven, earth and underworld and
sea, etc., does not have the overview of Zeus, so Hermes can indeed
appear chaotic to the people he visits on his journeys. I think, I can
learn interesting things from the articles and book you wrote (and
likely not only me), but I find it unfair and exaggerated that you
stick so stubbornly to a view here in usenet where apparently only you
and only your views are right and everybody who disagrees is always
wrong and even often doing this only out of having something
personally against you. I hope and feel that most of this is just a
reflex out of many years in places like unmoderated usenet where
indeed it appears that many people just disagree always no matter
what. You said I go all over the place: Yes, but not going anywhere is
also not very balanced in the end, it takes both.
What I meant about the pyramids was that when the Egyptian ones were
built, due to precession, siderally the cardinal points were in the
constellations that are now in contemporary tropical astrology the
fixed signs. I am not 100% sure what you meant with your reply.
Obviously in their time, Taurus etc. was cardinal to them, or am I
missing something here ?
By the way, the glyph for Jupiter, |2, was invented by Pedantus (the
one for Mercury by me). My very slow retrograde Mercury is near the AC
in the 12th, which is likely the main reason for my choice of screen
name. This has grown also out of experience using different screen
names over the years, including my real name. When I posted with my
real name, I usually took things more personal than as "Hermes", which
is usually not what lacks in usenet, and also other screen names did
not work as well as "Hermes".
Anyway, I will have to stick to writing almost only on weekends (and
relatively little then), have to take care of my left arm/side, else
it is never going to heal fully again. (Got better already, but could
well get worse again if I am not careful.)
No reply is ever perfect, but hope this is good enough. :)
Best wishes,
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Feb 17, 6:47 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> All of your replies are perfect, they perfectly reflect the idea you
> are being at any given moment, and perfectly reflect the beliefs you
> hold, whether you prefer those beliefs or not would be the issue.
I have seen that view of other people and that personal use of
astrology first when I met Alois Treindl, namely the view "I am the
measure of all things, whatever you may say is _always_ just a
reflection of your own limitations and I could see it in your birth
chart if you bug me too much". The world does not rotate around your
position as professional astrologer in a client-astrologer situation
or more generally a teacher-pupil one where you are always the
teacher. Like parents could only teach their children and never learn
anything from them. What did you write in your FAQ posting Jan 28th:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology/browse_thread/thread/8c147e1a004c807e#
* 8. Edmond Wollmann is the creator of the group for astrology
called
* alt.astrology.metapsych with the original and only charter listed
here:
* http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/charter.htm. This group is now
* purposely flooded with abusive posts and harassment as "payback" for
my
* successful termination of spammers accounts. Some astrologers (very
few,
* i.e., Ken Kizer) who are extremely envious of me join in with the
* abusive posters sometimes as a way to deflect my accurate criticism
of
* their less than professional or skilled application of astrological
* principles. Most astrologers or students of astrology now post
* exclusively in alt.astrology.moderated. My posting has been limited
* there because of the pettiness and unprofessional moderation
techniques
* employed.
Who is speaking about professional? As far as I know, the moderators
do that all for free in their spare time and I have been very happy
with moderation over the years.
"Always two there are, a master and an apprentice" - George Lucas (put
into the mouth Yoda) - No, not generally!
My birth chart is at my google profile. Take a look at the nodes, mine
and yours. Of course, the neptunian side was my dive down into the
pyramid. I have seen parts of you, of the present decade, of
California, of Poland (Polanski, Kinski, etc.), of myself, of
alt.astrology, and more. All that flow maybe structured and moderated
by Uranus-Pluto in Virgo. Just because you cannot see all that and
don't want to see it, does not mean that it is not all there...
Since you are the measure of all things in reading astrological
charts, why should I argue with you, much more efficient would it be
if you simply would take a few minutes to read my chart, yours, the
ones of Ken, a.a., a.a.mod, and so on. Could spare all that
superfluous talking to someone who is always right anyway.
)o+
On Feb 17, 3:47 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Feb 16, 11:28 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 17, 6:47 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > All of your replies are perfect, they perfectly reflect the idea you
> > > are being at any given moment, and perfectly reflect the beliefs you
> > > hold, whether you prefer those beliefs or not would be the issue.
>
> > I have seen that view of other people and that personal use of
> > astrology first when I met Alois Treindl, namely the view "I am the
> > measure of all things, whatever you may say is _always_ just a
> > reflection of your own limitations and I could see it in your birth
> > chart if you bug me too much". The world does not rotate around your
> > position as professional astrologer in a client-astrologer situation
> > or more generally a teacher-pupil one where you are always the
> > teacher. Like parents could only teach their children and never learn
> > anything from them. What did you write in your FAQ posting Jan 28th:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology/browse_thread/thread/8c1...
>
> > * 8. Edmond Wollmann is the creator of the group for astrology
> > called
> > * alt.astrology.metapsych with the original and only charter listed
> > here:
> > *http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/charter.htm. This group is now
> > * purposely flooded with abusive posts and harassment as "payback" for
> > my
> > * successful termination of spammers accounts. Some astrologers (very
> > few,
> > * i.e., Ken Kizer) who are extremely envious of me join in with the
> > * abusive posters sometimes as a way to deflect my accurate criticism
> > of
> > * their less than professional or skilled application of astrological
> > * principles. Most astrologers or students of astrology now post
> > * exclusively in alt.astrology.moderated. My posting has been limited
> > * there because of the pettiness and unprofessional moderation
> > techniques
> > * employed.
>
> > Who is speaking about professional? As far as I know, the moderators
> > do that all for free in their spare time and I have been very happy
> > with moderation over the years.
>
> > "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice" - George Lucas (put
> > into the mouth Yoda) - No, not generally!
>
> > My birth chart is at my google profile. Take a look at the nodes, mine
> > and yours. Of course, the neptunian side was my dive down into the
> > pyramid. I have seen parts of you, of the present decade, of
> > California, of Poland (Polanski, Kinski, etc.), of myself, of
> > alt.astrology, and more. All that flow maybe structured and moderated
> > by Uranus-Pluto in Virgo. Just because you cannot see all that and
> > don't want to see it, does not mean that it is not all there...
>
> We were discussing a persons Aquarius stellium, you get so
> initimidated by my simple desire to express my method tht you and Ken
> went off that. I'm done.
>
> > Since you are the measure of all things in reading astrological
> > charts, why should I argue with you, much more efficient would it be
> > if you simply would take a few minutes to read my chart, yours, the
> > ones of Ken, a.a., a.a.mod, and so on. Could spare all that
> > superfluous talking to someone who is always right anyway.
>
> > )o+
>
> I have faith that you can be positive, no matter how miserable you
> insist on being. I won't be replying to you anymore. You guys are just
> like the harassers, so preoccupied with ego and projecting your
> insecurities on me that you will avoid the topic to rail on me all
> day. Not interested. Too busy with people and things who know better
> than to waste their time on Earth with such idiocy.
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
An eagle flying above the pyramid, at the place of the n.node.
Sorry that I brought up the pyramid image in relation to you, I would
not have done that had I known that it reflects your chart so
closely.*
It really does, I cannot reverse that, nor the effects it might
gradually have on you and your creativity and life.*
Nor could anything you might say, probably reverse it, I am afraid.*
As I have said at a.a.mod, your articles and book are something quite
special in my perception and I think generally underestimated, even
though I simply cannot go as far as giving them an "exclusively
absolutely rightness".*
* Or maybe it is all completely different, I am just describing how it
looks from me, time will tell...
)o+
--
"Orlicu...!" - Valerie and her week of Wonders (1970)
On Feb 18, 12:49 am, Bob Officer <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:25:31 -0800 (PST), in alt.astrology, Hermes
>
>
>
> <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 17, 3:47 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> >wrote:
> >> On Feb 16, 11:28 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > On Feb 17, 6:47 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> > > All of your replies are perfect, they perfectly reflect the idea you
> >> > > are being at any given moment, and perfectly reflect the beliefs you
> >> > > hold, whether you prefer those beliefs or not would be the issue.
>
> >> > I have seen that view of other people and that personal use of
> >> > astrology first when I met Alois Treindl, namely the view "I am the
> >> > measure of all things, whatever you may say is _always_ just a
> >> > reflection of your own limitations and I could see it in your birth
> >> > chart if you bug me too much". The world does not rotate around your
> >> > position as professional astrologer in a client-astrologer situation
> >> > or more generally a teacher-pupil one where you are always the
> >> > teacher. Like parents could only teach their children and never learn
> >> > anything from them. What did you write in your FAQ posting Jan 28th:
>
> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology/browse_thread/thread/8c1...
>
> >> > * 8. Edmond Wollmann is the creator of the group for astrology
> >> > called
> >> > * alt.astrology.metapsych with the original and only charter listed
> >> > here:
> >> > *http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/charter.htm. This group is now
> >> > * purposely flooded with abusive posts and harassment as "payback" for
> >> > my
> >> > * successful termination of spammers accounts. Some astrologers (very
> >> > few,
> >> > * i.e., Ken Kizer) who are extremely envious of me join in with the
> >> > * abusive posters sometimes as a way to deflect my accurate criticism
> >> > of
> >> > * their less than professional or skilled application of astrological
> >> > * principles. Most astrologers or students of astrology now post
> >> > * exclusively in alt.astrology.moderated. My posting has been limited
> >> > * there because of the pettiness and unprofessional moderation
> >> > techniques
> >> > * employed.
>
> >> > Who is speaking about professional? As far as I know, the moderators
> >> > do that all for free in their spare time and I have been very happy
> >> > with moderation over the years.
>
> >> > "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice" - George Lucas (put
> >> > into the mouth Yoda) - No, not generally!
>
> >> > My birth chart is at my google profile. Take a look at the nodes, mine
> >> > and yours. Of course, the neptunian side was my dive down into the
> >> > pyramid. I have seen parts of you, of the present decade, of
> >> > California, of Poland (Polanski, Kinski, etc.), of myself, of
> >> > alt.astrology, and more. All that flow maybe structured and moderated
> >> > by Uranus-Pluto in Virgo. Just because you cannot see all that and
> >> > don't want to see it, does not mean that it is not all there...
>
> >> We were discussing a persons Aquarius stellium, you get so
> >> initimidated by my simple desire to express my method tht you and Ken
> >> went off that. I'm done.
>
> >> > Since you are the measure of all things in reading astrological
> >> > charts, why should I argue with you, much more efficient would it be
> >> > if you simply would take a few minutes to read my chart, yours, the
> >> > ones of Ken, a.a., a.a.mod, and so on. Could spare all that
> >> > superfluous talking to someone who is always right anyway.
>
> >> > )o+
>
> >> I have faith that you can be positive, no matter how miserable you
> >> insist on being. I won't be replying to you anymore. You guys are just
> >> like the harassers, so preoccupied with ego and projecting your
> >> insecurities on me that you will avoid the topic to rail on me all
> >> day. Not interested. Too busy with people and things who know better
> >> than to waste their time on Earth with such idiocy.
>
> >> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> >> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> >> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> >> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> >> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
>
> >An eagle flying above the pyramid, at the place of the n.node.
>
> >Sorry that I brought up the pyramid image in relation to you, I would
> >not have done that had I known that it reflects your chart so
> >closely.*
>
> >It really does, I cannot reverse that, nor the effects it might
> >gradually have on you and your creativity and life.*
>
> >Nor could anything you might say, probably reverse it, I am afraid.*
>
> On the other hand some african tribes see that stellism which Edmond
> keeps referring to as an eagle, as a jackal. Apt don't you think. You
> see that the problem with culturally assigned icon like images as
> having a set meaning. It is a fallacy which Astrologer world wide
> avoid considering. Those assignments are arbitrary and have no real
> meanings.
Yes, the choice of constellations is certainly cultural (at least to
first order). They way I see it could still have a detectable impact
on people's lives, even on people not consciously aware of astrology,
would be if people unconsciously believe in astrology, as cultural/
collective heritage. But so far, of course, nothing is proven in
astrology, so this remains pure speculation on my side.
The association with the eagle in my post came from the n.node in
tropical Sagittarius (astrological ruler of Sagittarius is Jupiter/
Zeus, and the eagle helped Zeus in the fight against Cronos/Saturn in
mythology, etc.), not so much from the constellation Aquila near
Aquarius/Capricorn. The center of our galaxy, the big black hole there
(no pun intended on my side, even though it would fit some of the
"grouchiness") is conjunct Edmond's n.node since some years
(calculating the position of the nodes is somewhat fluffy anyway).
> >As I have said at a.a.mod, your articles and book are something quite
> >special in my perception and I think generally underestimated, even
> >though I simply cannot go as far as giving them an "exclusively
> >absolutely rightness".*
>
> His book is GRABAGE, offal and offending. Most of it is mangled works
> of other people, including part stolen out of a text book.
>
> How special is it that Edmond mis-cited a book, claiming Edmond
> Halley discovered Arcturus, a 2nd magnitude star.
>
> Edmond is rather stupid and dense as well as having large degree of
> plain intellectual dishonesty. His book has only one real use and
> that is an example of why self publishing/self editing is not a good
> idea.
>
> >* Or maybe it is all completely different, I am just describing how it
> >looks from me, time will tell...
>
> Tripe has a use. Edmond book has no other use except for how not to
> do...
I ordered the book a few weeks ago and I will see when I get it.
Astrology in these times is, since nothing has been formally proven in
a way that would generally convince, still a sea of different
opinions, so I am relatively lax with regard to formal attributes like
peer review or editors. But sure, getting at least verifiable facts
like that Halley discovered the proper motion of Arcturus right, is
certainly desirable. As long as such errors remain few and are
eventually corrected in future editions of a work, I don't mind much.
King Arthur's table was round [coming to "Arthur" associatively,
although maybe not etymologically, from "Arcturus", the guardian of
the bear], a bit like it virtually is in (unmoderated) usenet...
> --
> Ak'toh'di
)o+
On Feb 19, 1:08 am, Bob Officer <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:50:47 -0800 (PST), in alt.astrology, Hermes
>
>
>
> <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 18, 12:49 am, Bob Officer <bobofficers@127.0.0.7> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:25:31 -0800 (PST), in alt.astrology, Hermes
>
> >> <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Feb 17, 3:47 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> On Feb 16, 11:28 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > On Feb 17, 6:47 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> >> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >> > > All of your replies are perfect, they perfectly reflect the idea you
> >> >> > > are being at any given moment, and perfectly reflect the beliefs you
> >> >> > > hold, whether you prefer those beliefs or not would be the issue.
>
> >> >> > I have seen that view of other people and that personal use of
> >> >> > astrology first when I met Alois Treindl, namely the view "I am the
> >> >> > measure of all things, whatever you may say is _always_ just a
> >> >> > reflection of your own limitations and I could see it in your birth
> >> >> > chart if you bug me too much". The world does not rotate around your
> >> >> > position as professional astrologer in a client-astrologer situation
> >> >> > or more generally a teacher-pupil one where you are always the
> >> >> > teacher. Like parents could only teach their children and never learn
> >> >> > anything from them. What did you write in your FAQ posting Jan 28th:
>
> >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology/browse_thread/thread/8c1...
>
> >> >> > * 8. Edmond Wollmann is the creator of the group for astrology
> >> >> > called
> >> >> > * alt.astrology.metapsych with the original and only charter listed
> >> >> > here:
> >> >> > *http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/charter.htm. This group is now
> >> >> > * purposely flooded with abusive posts and harassment as "payback" for
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > * successful termination of spammers accounts. Some astrologers (very
> >> >> > few,
> >> >> > * i.e., Ken Kizer) who are extremely envious of me join in with the
> >> >> > * abusive posters sometimes as a way to deflect my accurate criticism
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > * their less than professional or skilled application of astrological
> >> >> > * principles. Most astrologers or students of astrology now post
> >> >> > * exclusively in alt.astrology.moderated. My posting has been limited
> >> >> > * there because of the pettiness and unprofessional moderation
> >> >> > techniques
> >> >> > * employed.
>
> >> >> > Who is speaking about professional? As far as I know, the moderators
> >> >> > do that all for free in their spare time and I have been very happy
> >> >> > with moderation over the years.
>
> >> >> > "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice" - George Lucas (put
> >> >> > into the mouth Yoda) - No, not generally!
>
> >> >> > My birth chart is at my google profile. Take a look at the nodes, mine
> >> >> > and yours. Of course, the neptunian side was my dive down into the
> >> >> > pyramid. I have seen parts of you, of the present decade, of
> >> >> > California, of Poland (Polanski, Kinski, etc.), of myself, of
> >> >> > alt.astrology, and more. All that flow maybe structured and moderated
> >> >> > by Uranus-Pluto in Virgo. Just because you cannot see all that and
> >> >> > don't want to see it, does not mean that it is not all there...
>
> >> >> We were discussing a persons Aquarius stellium, you get so
> >> >> initimidated by my simple desire to express my method tht you and Ken
> >> >> went off that. I'm done.
>
> >> >> > Since you are the measure of all things in reading astrological
> >> >> > charts, why should I argue with you, much more efficient would it be
> >> >> > if you simply would take a few minutes to read my chart, yours, the
> >> >> > ones of Ken, a.a., a.a.mod, and so on. Could spare all that
> >> >> > superfluous talking to someone who is always right anyway.
>
> >> >> > )o+
>
> >> >> I have faith that you can be positive, no matter how miserable you
> >> >> insist on being. I won't be replying to you anymore. You guys are just
> >> >> like the harassers, so preoccupied with ego and projecting your
> >> >> insecurities on me that you will avoid the topic to rail on me all
> >> >> day. Not interested. Too busy with people and things who know better
> >> >> than to waste their time on Earth with such idiocy.
>
> >> >> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> >> >> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> >> >> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> >> >> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> >> >> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
>
> >> >An eagle flying above the pyramid, at the place of the n.node.
>
> >> >Sorry that I brought up the pyramid image in relation to you, I would
> >> >not have done that had I known that it reflects your chart so
> >> >closely.*
>
> >> >It really does, I cannot reverse that, nor the effects it might
> >> >gradually have on you and your creativity and life.*
>
> >> >Nor could anything you might say, probably reverse it, I am afraid.*
>
> >> On the other hand some african tribes see that stellism which Edmond
> >> keeps referring to as an eagle, as a jackal. Apt don't you think. You
> >> see that the problem with culturally assigned icon like images as
> >> having a set meaning. It is a fallacy which Astrologer world wide
> >> avoid considering. Those assignments are arbitrary and have no real
> >> meanings.
>
> >Yes, the choice of constellations is certainly cultural (at least to
> >first order). They way I see it could still have a detectable impact
>
> Why, Astrology has no impact, and no measurable cause and effect. Any
> one that believes in Astrology is doing nothing but thinking with
> fallacies and non-logic.
>
> >on people's lives, even on people not consciously aware of astrology,
>
> Astrology is a false pattern. Apophenia.
>
> >would be if people unconsciously believe in astrology, as cultural/
> >collective heritage. But so far, of course, nothing is proven in
> >astrology, so this remains pure speculation on my side.
>
> Nothing is proven because it simple doesn't exist. IT is a false
> phenomena, Apophenia, a type one stat error.
>
> >The association with the eagle in my post came from the n.node in
> >tropical Sagittarius (astrological ruler of Sagittarius is Jupiter/
> >Zeus, and the eagle helped Zeus in the fight against Cronos/Saturn in
> >mythology, etc.), not so much from the constellation Aquila near
> >Aquarius/Capricorn. The center of our galaxy, the big black hole there
> >(no pun intended on my side, even though it would fit some of the
> >"grouchiness") is conjunct Edmond's n.node since some years
> >(calculating the position of the nodes is somewhat fluffy anyway).
>
> Blahblahblah, myths and tales and fables is what any religion is
> built upon. The problem is there is no evidence to even consider
> these gods ever existed or the effects you speak of are caused or
> effected by imaginary constellations in the sky.
>
>
>
> >> >As I have said at a.a.mod, your articles and book are something quite
> >> >special in my perception and I think generally underestimated, even
> >> >though I simply cannot go as far as giving them an "exclusively
> >> >absolutely rightness".*
>
> >> His book is GRABAGE, offal and offending. Most of it is mangled works
> >> of other people, including part stolen out of a text book.
>
> >> How special is it that Edmond mis-cited a book, claiming Edmond
> >> Halley discovered Arcturus, a 2nd magnitude star.
>
> >> Edmond is rather stupid and dense as well as having large degree of
> >> plain intellectual dishonesty. His book has only one real use and
> >> that is an example of why self publishing/self editing is not a good
> >> idea.
>
> >> >* Or maybe it is all completely different, I am just describing how it
> >> >looks from me, time will tell...
>
> >> Tripe has a use. Edmond book has no other use except for how not to
> >> do...
>
> >I ordered the book a few weeks ago and I will see when I get it.
>
> Good Luck. I loaned my Copy to a university professor years ago. He
> thought it was a joke. Then his only conclusion was the person that
> 'wrote' the book was an moron.
>
> >Astrology in these times is, since nothing has been formally proven in
> >a way that would generally convince, still a sea of different
> >opinions, so I am relatively lax with regard to formal attributes like
> >peer review or editors. But sure, getting at least verifiable facts
> >like that Halley discovered the proper motion of Arcturus right, is
> >certainly desirable. As long as such errors remain few and are
> >eventually corrected in future editions of a work, I don't mind much.
>
> Any test, has shown astrology is no better than random guessing.
> Sorry. Your beliefs and dogma have no basis in reality.
>
> >King Arthur's table was round [coming to "Arthur" associatively,
>
> A fable? It maybe there was a real King Arthur, but like most fables
> there maybe a root of something in history which is heavily distorted
>
> >although maybe not etymologically, from "Arcturus", the guardian of
> >the bear], a bit like it virtually is in (unmoderated) usenet...
>
> Another fable...
>
> >> --
> >> Ak'toh'di
> >)o+
>
> If that is a signature, please learn to deliniate it. Also if you
> can't use a decent newsreader, cut the other people's signature.
>
> --
> Ak'toh'di
Skeptisism is Apophenia or religion, replaces experiment with opinion/
belief, just at the other end of what some astrologers do.
Why don't you sign with your real name, "Bob Officer" ? ;)
)o+
PS: I have some commas left from Cujo's post, won't need them here any
more: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I got Edmond Wollmann's book* yesterday**.
First I started reading into it with the perspective of Edmond
Wollmann talking to me, and that way it was often unbearable. I put it
away and today (with the sun now in Pisces) I looked at it again, this
time looking at it like heritage from a lost civilization, like a book
that was written thousands of years ago by someone looking at the
world from a completely different background (or the other way round,
written now and read by me far in the future).
In other words, instead of looking at the south node in Gemini/11th,
conjunct Mars, i.e. someone trying ferociously and with repetitive
language to win a fight via conversation and to teach, I looked at it
from the high vantage point of the north node in Sagittarius/5th,
conjunct the galactic center when it was written, like an eagle
looking down at the surface in the desert, above an Egyptian pyramid
(grand square).
Birth chart with pyramid at center:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S38Ibm3zEeI/AAAAAAAAAdE/9Ue7zA8xJ14/ehw.jpg
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/w5P-9C4MsVic-ii9M9Fvxg?feat=directlink
Guess what, that way the book is great. Not that it would all be
"true" or "necessary" or "urgent", but like reading a text by, say,
Aristotle, Plato or Lao Tzu, one can learn a lot of things that are
buried in today's world. Not that one should bring them generally up
to live again in this time, but considering them (or just fragments of
them) and accepting them as part of reality or "reality" is certainly
worth some consideration.
When I first looked at E.H.W.'s chart, it looked *not* like almost all
charts at which I had looked in my life, in the sense that I would
usually often think/feel "oh, sorry to see that", seeing all the
things that are problematic and cause pain and problems. It looked
like a chart that can do things that even I cannot do in parts, and
that is a feeling I have rarely (sorry for this punctual vanity ;).
But despite the sophistication in which the grand square and other
things are balanced, there is a weak spot that causes trouble.
It is the nodal axis. Whatever the north node creates in terms of
publishing articles or books is often at danger to be destroyed by the
south node and especially Mars there, within the texts themselves and
also in places like usenet by replying in a way that reduces the magic
of the original texts. But in this life or "this life", fights cannot
be won with Mars in Gemini/11th, they are always lost, at least in the
sense that what was in the original and beautiful texts retracts out
of the light and in public only the image of a "kook" remains
prominent, plus all the daily fights in and out of cyberspace with
angry opponents. Of course, with the nodes, too, some balance is
needed, books that simply say "s.node bad, don't do, n.node good,
always do" miss something essential about the human psyche in my view.
My n.node (and my asteroid Pythia) in the 11th are conjunct E.H.W.'s
sun, and my s.node (5th) is opposite, and with it Neptune (4th, all
with Placidus houses), and I am currently in my s.node Firduria...
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S38Tm0VmSmI/AAAAAAAAAdU/s5W-VuSbJIs/cloverleaf.jpg
This may all be illusion and naive, but I don't mind if everybody
reading this thinks so, why would that be so bad to be naive and have
imagination?
One more thing: The cover is in the colors black/white/red, the colors
of the three phases of the moon and the triple Goddess in ancient
Greece according to Robert Graves in "The Greek Myths", and the moon
is in Capricorn ("desert") in E.H.W.'s chart. Dedication in the book:
"Dedicated to my mother,
whose transition to the other side
during this work,
in no way altered her loving support."
Who would I be to argue with fate (triple phases of the moon), after
all it was Hermes in mythology who helped the Fates create the
alphabet, which is at the root of all books ever written... (well,
most of them at least).
)o+
--
* Edmond H. Wollmann, The Integrated Astrological Guide to Self-
Empowerment, Volume 1, "The Chalice of Arcturus", Altair Publishing/
Astrological Consulting, San Diego, California.
** Around 8 AM, 18 Feb 2010, which puts transiting moon conjunct the
part of fortune and asteroid Pythia in E.W.H.'s birth chart.
PS: "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."
PPS: Note natal Pluto in E.H.W's chart conjnuct Orcus at discovery
PPPS: Maybe the nodes are mentioned in the book, but I could not find
them so far...
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Feb 20, 4:35 am, CFA wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >But despite the sophistication in which the grand square and other
> >things are balanced, there is a weak spot that causes trouble.
>
> >It is the nodal axis.
>
> I'm not sure why this wouldn't have the same kind of balance the rest
> of the chart does... Neptune is trine Mars and sextile the NNode, for
> instance.
>
> On the other hand, your comment about "things are balanced" brings up
> some questions. I know there are trines to all three planets in the
> Sun/Saturn/Pluto t-square, for instance, but it's hard not to see one
> possible manifestation of it in his usenet presence.
I am not 100% sure, but that would be my reasoning based on what I
feel from looking at the chart:
The t-square feels balanced to me, already in itself by the "choice"
of similarly strong planets involved and because it forms a grand
square together with the moon in the birth chart of the USA (Sibly
chart and others). Can very likely lead to action, but does not feel
to me like the action resulting directly from the squares would be
generally much of a problem to E.H.W., if at all. Pluto at 24 Leo is
conjunct fixed star Subra, the "lion's paw" (and where Orcus was at
its discovery in 2004). The paw is guarding some deep secrets, also
maybe in opposition to the moon of the USA, but I think that is part
of the picture of the USA, from the back side of the seal of the USA
onwards.
Nick Antony Fiorenza writes about the fixed stars at the longitude of
Subra at its discovery:
* Subra, marking the end of sidereal Cancer, is the paw
* of the Lion impressed in the desert sand. Subra is of
* prints, tracks, plans, codices and ancient maps--clues
* to hidden trails and paths obscured by the sands of
* time. Subra indicates a discovery process is at hand,
* one leading to the secret chambers, entryways, even
* to liftoff sites of the gods--places hidden from
* ordinary view. Simply, Subra asks that we dig, uncover,
* and find the way to navigate the passage of our
* Heart’s true desire.
*
* Synthesizing with the theme of Subra is the primary
* star of the very southern constellation Pictoris, the
* Painter's Easel. Alpha Pictoris indicates a picture or
* scenario is emerging from the aethers. This is a picture
* assembling itself as we break trail in our discovery
* process. Alpha Pictoris asks us to see the pathway or
* entryway emerging out of the mist covering an abyss,
* in the rock of a mountain side, in the billowing clouds
* blown by the wind, in the leaves fallen upon the ground,
* or simply in our mind's inner eye. Alpha Pictoris asks
* us to creatively assemble the signs, to read the
* message, to see the coalescing spirit substance yet to
* become.
*
* Pyxidis, a sub-constellation of the Argo, is the Crow's
* Nest (or compass) of the galactic ship. Alpha Pyxidis,
* just into sidereal Leo, conjoines Subra, the paw of the
* Lion, and Alpha Pictoris. The stellar qualities of Alpha
* Pyxidis ask us to peer far beyond the common world to
* navigate through potential problems or obstacles upon
* our exploration. Pyxidis inspires us to find the map
* obscured in the sand, to see the picture waiting to
* emerge from the obscuring fog into visible sight, and to
* take an abode, place, vantage, or perspective from which
* we can see and find distant lands. Pyxidis indicates a
* process, one that requires patience, foresight, and
* perceptual attentiveness. Although this often is a
* lonely process, it is one serving our greater
* evolutionary journey, and as well, the journeys of our
* colleagues and companions. Pyxidis has little interest
* in the superfluous pursuits of the common world, always
* seeking new ground, looking forward, gazing ahead
* through time, to see through the present limitations
* into the depths of what can yet become.
-- http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids-dwarfplanets/Orcus-Pluto.html
Mars in Gemini is often deceived by the harmonious aspects it sees.
The sextiles to Pluto at the mentioned spot and to beautiful Venus and
part of fortune (or to my MC and moon or your ascendent) often give
Mars the false impression that it would be a good idea to enter the
dialog. And Neptune via trine almost fatedly binds Mars to do so
sometimes. But Mars is at the s.node, so despite lots of experience
from a past life or "life", going that way is generally not very
fruitful, even though at times likely still necessary. (Otherwise, for
example, I would not make this post.) I relate Mars to squares and
earth (both via number 4), so indirectly the sore Mars affects also
the sun and moon in earth signs and all the squares in the chart,
hence "losing" in conversations is something that, if taken too
seriously, can maybe affect the whole self and structure of E.H.W.
As I said, for me the reasoning came after feeling into the chart.
What I feel by looking at it is an overall great, stable and often
harmonious chart (by currently living in California, there are even
planets in Virgo and Pisces to complete the balance - but maybe also
at a square to Mars), but with a sore Mars in Gemini/11th conjunct the
s.node, that has been somewhat unnecessarily overstressed in the past
few years and weakens the balance of the chart.
)o+
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
I wrote:
> The sextiles to Pluto at the mentioned spot and to beautiful Venus and
> part of fortune (or to my MC and moon or your ascendent) [...]
Sorry, your north node, not ascendent.
)o+
Just in case: The book does describe practically all elements of
modern, contemporary, tropical astrology in great detail and from
various angles, and those descriptions are not in any immediate way
"spaced off". Also, these concepts are applied in later chapters to
specific events and birth charts. The difference to average books
about astrology is not on that level. Anyway, just my opinion... -
great book, can certainly be very useful for almost any practitioning
astrologer.
"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." -
Groucho Marx
)o+
On Feb 23, 4:51 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Every two years or so Mars and Saturn complete a developmental cycle.
> Mars which is the natural ruler of Aries reflects the idea of self
> identification of definition from belief. Mars reflects how we define
> ourselves and our "persona" (mask or false face) as we assert that
> idea spontaneously and with desire that which we have chosen to be in
> this life.
>
> This next conjunction will be July 31, 2010 @ 0Libra49 (Sabian Symbol:
> A Butterfly made perfect by a dart through it). This next one will be
> especially powerful for the US as it occurs opposing Uranus at 0
> Aries, making a Grand Cross with the US Venus and Jupiter, T Pluto,
> Jupiter and the moon.
>
> A WARNING TO ALL: USE DUE CAUTION DURING THIS TIME FRAME. Poor
> judgment rules, accidents and conflict are possible, security and
> status disrupted. Failed security measures bring possible tragedy.
> Business and economic security may be disrupted.
> These warnings are doubled if this aspect network falls on any
> critical aspect network in your own natal chart (especially
> developmental or "hard" aspect networks).
>
> Saturn is the archetypal symbol of the limits of physicality. It rules
> Capricorn, the physical manifestation of belief on "Earth" in the
> physical world. The structured and fear oriented belief that our
> reality is outside of us and "impinges" or bombards us from outside.
>
> When these two planets conjoin there is an extreme focus on the
> application of the ego self (Mars) in physical reality (Saturn). The
> sign and house in which this occurs reflects what sorts of "issues" in
> physicality the persona will attempt to "impinge" itself upon and
> apply itself to in a very focused and strategic way. It also reflects
> where there may be a "surfacing" of the fears ABOUT physicality and
> how they affect the individual. There may also be the experiencing of
> the beliefs and fears of being "thwarted" in that area of life, and
> hence, application then becomes focused and measured.
>
> The last was at 5 Virgo 26 (July 10, 2008). If you review these points
> in your own chart-both solar and natal, you will find that this is
> where your primary focus of self application has been (and will be)
> during that 2 year or so time frame.
>
> When they are in opening or closing square to each other, these two
> planets will be challenging the individual's beliefs in the validity
> of the self. There may be overwhelming obstacles (if the person is of
> a negative view-pls review my posts on positive/negative energy) or
> will experience temporary setbacks or challenges to "step up"
> application of self to overcome the apparent "blocks" in the physical
> world.
>
> When in opposition it will seem as if strategy (Saturn) and a
> methodological application of the self ITSELF may be dangerous to the
> furtherance of the self and its goals at that time. Then the effect
> will be a conflict between aggressive assertion (Aries/Mars) and not
> enough assertion or that caution may be the best move. Either way
> there will be presented the opportunity for the ego gain a higher
> sense of trust and to learn greater implementation of strategy as the
> reflection of trust and conviction with the self's preferences.
>
> The ability to trust during times of difficult endeavor reveal the
> person's overall "threshold of believability" that reflects by the
> willingness to continue and to follow through, exactly the STRENGTH of
> trust the person has in the endeavor and application it seeks to
> manifest. If the identity believes itself the "true" path it desires
> to be, then continued effort in the direction of preference will allow
> it to learn what it needs to learn strategically to MANIFEST that
> preference (high threshold of believability). If the "external"
> appears too threatening and obstacle ridden there may be an
> accumulation of self doubt and persecution complexes that diminish the
> trust of the self that it is the path it prefers to be--or that that
> path is realistically obtainable (low threshold of believability).
>
> So it is fear that dominates when in this focused application of the
> self we believe is "all" we are, goes unchecked without the positive
> recognition of the unlimited spirit that the self truly is. Life can
> seem threatening, overwhelming and not reinforcing to--or nurturing
> and supportive of--us and our preferences to be what we wish,
> effortlessly. If during the last conjunction until now much has been
> accomplished with regard to its position at conjunction, be assured
> that you have integrated and fulfilled the developmental process
> associated with this cycle.
>
> However, when the element of recognition that we create our reality as
> the product of our belief and definitions is injected into the
> equation, we allow ourselves to real-ize that the self we are or
> believe ourselves to be in physicality is not "really" all we are. We
> are not on a path we are a path (Bashar). The "All That Is" created
> the idea that we are for a reason and no creator would be so cruel as
> to create a creation and then not allow or intend that that creation
> be able to fulfill the idea that it intended itself to be.
> Sometimes the only "strategy" we are allowed to create is the
> recognition above and that everything must be unfolding as it needs
> to, to lead us to that fulfilled expression. When this occurs,
> acknowledging that everything is happening as it needs to to get us to
> where we need to be to express that preference, must be trusted.
> Everything fits, nothing is out of line. The convicted action of that
> recognition is the continued application of the self and trust that
> whatever needs to be there to "educate" the physical self for the
> preference and task it has chosen--will be there regardless of the
> strategic and limited ego's "need to know every little detail" to make
> SURE it will. Mistakes are incorporated and learned, and judgments of
> the self for being “wrong” are minimalized, as they serve no real
> useful purpose. Doubt is the true opposite of love- self love
> included.
> As always, thank you for allowing me to share these ideas. If they
> serve you use them, if they do not ignore them. They are simply
> suggestions and offerings and no one is asked to believe they are the
> only or "true" answers simply because I have asserted them.
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
Side remark: Before that, Mars will have stationed March 10th at
almost 0 Leo.
--
When Hui Tzu was prime minister of Liang, Chuang Tzu set off to visit
him. Someone said to Hui Tzu, "Chuang Tzu is coming because he wants
to replace you as prime minister!" With this Hui Tzu was filled with
alarm and searched all over the state for three days and three nights
trying to find Chuang Tzu. Chuang Tzu then came to see him and said,
"In the south there is a bird called the Yuan-ch'u - I wonder if
you've ever heard of it? The Yuan-ch'u rises up from the South Sea and
flies to the North Sea, and it will rest on nothing but the Wu-t'ung
tree, eat nothing but the fruit of the Lien, and drink only from
springs of sweet water. Once there was an owl who had gotten hold of a
half-rotten old rat, and as the Yuan-ch'u passed by, it raised its
head, looked up at the Yuan-ch'u, and said, `Shoo!' Now that you have
this Liang state of yours, are you trying to shoo me?"
-- (extra delinations for Bob Officer, a bit out of order and the
signature is missing at the end, but at least they are there...)
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
[Repost of my posts in this thread, since I had removed them
from google groups and in today's world this is apparently
where practically everybody is reading usenet...]
--- POST 1 --- Feb 19 2010 ---
I got Edmond Wollmann's book* yesterday**.
First I started reading into it with the perspective of Edmond
Wollmann talking to me, and that way it was often unbearable. I put it
away and today (with the sun now in Pisces) I looked at it again, this
time looking at it like heritage from a lost civilization, like a book
that was written thousands of years ago by someone looking at the
world from a completely different background (or the other way round,
written now and read by me far in the future).
In other words, instead of looking at the south node in Gemini/11th,
conjunct Mars, i.e. someone trying ferociously and with repetitive
language to win a fight via conversation and to teach, I looked at it
from the high vantage point of the north node in Sagittarius/5th,
conjunct the galactic center when it was written, like an eagle
looking down at the surface in the desert, above an Egyptian pyramid
(grand square).
Birth chart with pyramid at center:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S4deQRiHLnI/AAAAAAAAAq4/5Ml4faQNXDU/s800/ehw.jpg
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/A8zQiEVRL8YsLeHsKYR_sA?feat=directlink
Guess what, that way the book is great. Not that it would all be
"true" or "necessary" or "urgent", but like reading a text by, say,
Aristotle, Plato or Lao Tzu, one can learn a lot of things that are
buried in today's world. Not that one should bring them generally up
to live again in this time, but considering them (or just fragments of
them) and accepting them as part of reality or "reality" is certainly
worth some consideration.
When I first looked at E.H.W.'s chart, it looked *not* like almost all
charts at which I had looked in my life, in the sense that I would
usually often think/feel "oh, sorry to see that", seeing all the
things that are problematic and cause pain and problems. It looked
like a chart that can do things that even I cannot do in parts, and
that is a feeling I have rarely (sorry for this punctual vanity ;).
But despite the sophistication in which the grand square and other
things are balanced, there is a weak spot that causes trouble.
It is the nodal axis. Whatever the north node creates in terms of
publishing articles or books is often at danger to be destroyed by the
south node and especially Mars there, within the texts themselves and
also in places like usenet by replying in a way that reduces the magic
of the original texts. But in this life or "this life", fights cannot
be won with Mars in Gemini/11th, they are always lost, at least in the
sense that what was in the original and beautiful texts retracts out
of the light and in public only the image of a "kook" remains
prominent, plus all the daily fights in and out of cyberspace with
angry opponents. Of course, with the nodes, too, some balance is
needed, books that simply say "s.node bad, don't do, n.node good,
always do" miss something essential about the human psyche in my view.
My n.node (and my asteroid Pythia) in the 11th are conjunct E.H.W.'s
sun, and my s.node (5th) is opposite, and with it Neptune (4th, all
with Placidus houses), and I am currently in my s.node Firduria...
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S4deQk4cDZI/AAAAAAAAAq8/WwD8-plhtyo/s720/cloverleaf.jpg
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/AUW0qDf81E09TdwwCDGQKQ?feat=directlink
This may all be illusion and naive, but I don't mind if everybody
reading this thinks so, why would that be so bad to be naive and have
imagination?
One more thing: The cover is in the colors black/white/red, the colors
of the three phases of the moon and the triple Goddess in ancient
Greece according to Robert Graves in "The Greek Myths", and the moon
is in Capricorn ("desert") in E.H.W.'s chart. Dedication in the book:
"Dedicated to my mother,
whose transition to the other side
during this work,
in no way altered her loving support."
Who would I be to argue with fate (triple phases of the moon), after
all it was Hermes in mythology who helped the Fates create the
alphabet, which is at the root of all books ever written... (well,
most of them at least).
)o+
--
* Edmond H. Wollmann, The Integrated Astrological Guide to Self-
Empowerment, Volume 1, "The Chalice of Arcturus", Altair Publishing/
Astrological Consulting, San Diego, California.
** Around 8 AM, 18 Feb 2010, which puts transiting moon conjunct the
part of fortune and asteroid Pythia in E.W.H.'s birth chart.
PS: "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."
PPS: Note natal Pluto in E.H.W's chart conjnuct Orcus at discovery
PPPS: Maybe the nodes are mentioned in the book, but I could not find
them so far...
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
--- POST 2 - Feb 20 2010 ---
On Feb 20, 4:35 am, CFA wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>> But despite the sophistication in which the grand square and other
>> things are balanced, there is a weak spot that causes trouble.
>>
>> It is the nodal axis.
>
> I'm not sure why this wouldn't have the same kind of balance the rest
> of the chart does... Neptune is trine Mars and sextile the NNode, for
> instance.
>
> On the other hand, your comment about "things are balanced" brings up
> some questions. I know there are trines to all three planets in the
> Sun/Saturn/Pluto t-square, for instance, but it's hard not to see one
> possible manifestation of it in his usenet presence.
I am not 100% sure, but that would be my reasoning based on what I
feel from looking at the chart:
The t-square feels balanced to me, already in itself by the "choice"
of similarly strong planets involved and because it forms a grand
square together with the moon in the birth chart of the USA (Sibly
chart and others). Can very likely lead to action, but does not feel
to me like the action resulting directly from the squares would be
generally much of a problem to E.H.W., if at all. Pluto at 24 Leo is
conjunct fixed star Subra, the "lion's paw" (and where Orcus was at
its discovery in 2004). The paw is guarding some deep secrets, also
maybe in opposition to the moon of the USA, but I think that is part
of the picture of the USA, from the back side of the seal of the USA
onwards.
Nick Antony Fiorenza writes about the fixed stars at the longitude of
Subra at its discovery:
* Subra, marking the end of sidereal Cancer, is the paw
* of the Lion impressed in the desert sand. Subra is of
* prints, tracks, plans, codices and ancient maps--clues
* to hidden trails and paths obscured by the sands of
* time. Subra indicates a discovery process is at hand,
* one leading to the secret chambers, entryways, even
* to liftoff sites of the gods--places hidden from
* ordinary view. Simply, Subra asks that we dig, uncover,
* and find the way to navigate the passage of our
* Heart's true desire.
*
* Synthesizing with the theme of Subra is the primary
* star of the very southern constellation Pictoris, the
* Painter's Easel. Alpha Pictoris indicates a picture or
* scenario is emerging from the aethers. This is a picture
* assembling itself as we break trail in our discovery
* process. Alpha Pictoris asks us to see the pathway or
* entryway emerging out of the mist covering an abyss,
* in the rock of a mountain side, in the billowing clouds
* blown by the wind, in the leaves fallen upon the ground,
* or simply in our mind's inner eye. Alpha Pictoris asks
* us to creatively assemble the signs, to read the
* message, to see the coalescing spirit substance yet to
* become.
*
* Pyxidis, a sub-constellation of the Argo, is the Crow's
* Nest (or compass) of the galactic ship. Alpha Pyxidis,
* just into sidereal Leo, conjoines Subra, the paw of the
* Lion, and Alpha Pictoris. The stellar qualities of Alpha
* Pyxidis ask us to peer far beyond the common world to
* navigate through potential problems or obstacles upon
* our exploration. Pyxidis inspires us to find the map
* obscured in the sand, to see the picture waiting to
* emerge from the obscuring fog into visible sight, and to
* take an abode, place, vantage, or perspective from which
* we can see and find distant lands. Pyxidis indicates a
* process, one that requires patience, foresight, and
* perceptual attentiveness. Although this often is a
* lonely process, it is one serving our greater
* evolutionary journey, and as well, the journeys of our
* colleagues and companions. Pyxidis has little interest
* in the superfluous pursuits of the common world, always
* seeking new ground, looking forward, gazing ahead
* through time, to see through the present limitations
* into the depths of what can yet become.
-- http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids-dwarfplanets/Orcus-Pluto.html
Mars in Gemini is often deceived by the harmonious aspects it sees.
The sextiles to Pluto at the mentioned spot and to beautiful Venus and
part of fortune (or to my MC and moon or your ascendent) often give
Mars the false impression that it would be a good idea to enter the
dialog. And Neptune via trine almost fatedly binds Mars to do so
sometimes. But Mars is at the s.node, so despite lots of experience
from a past life or "life", going that way is generally not very
fruitful, even though at times likely still necessary. (Otherwise, for
example, I would not make this post.) I relate Mars to squares and
earth (both via number 4), so indirectly the sore Mars affects also
the sun and moon in earth signs and all the squares in the chart,
hence "losing" in conversations is something that, if taken too
seriously, can maybe affect the whole self and structure of E.H.W.
As I said, for me the reasoning came after feeling into the chart.
What I feel by looking at it is an overall great, stable and often
harmonious chart (by currently living in California, there are even
planets in Virgo and Pisces to complete the balance - but maybe also
at a square to Mars), but with a sore Mars in Gemini/11th conjunct the
s.node, that has been somewhat unnecessarily overstressed in the past
few years and weakens the balance of the chart.
)o+
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
--- POST 3 - Feb 20 2010 ---
I wrote:
> The sextiles to Pluto at the mentioned spot and to beautiful Venus and
> part of fortune (or to my MC and moon or your ascendent) [...]
Sorry, your north node, not ascendent.
)o+
--- POST 4 - Feb 20 2010 ---
Just in case: The book does describe practically all elements of
modern, contemporary, tropical astrology in great detail and from
various angles, and those descriptions are not in any immediate way
"spaced off". Also, these concepts are applied in later chapters to
specific events and birth charts. The difference to average books
about astrology is not on that level. Anyway, just my opinion... -
great book, can certainly be very useful for almost any practitioning
astrologer.
"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." -
Groucho Marx
)o+
--- END ---
PS: My interpretation of Mars conjunct s.node may be in a way
or in some sense 180 degrees off. After all, one eagle seems
to keep many sceptics down on the ground busy with relatively
modest means and by working practically only on weekdays.
Beginning of the caption of the image of chart plus pyramid:
"The true american eagle (no irony implied) flying above an
intermediately deserted world..."
Sounds like a Sabian Symbol, and, yes, these Symbols emerged
in a park in San Diego, the current home of the book's author
as far as I understand...
* On some unrecorded date in 1925, the Sabian symbols were
* brought into manifestation in the span of a day in Balboa Park,
* San Diego, California through the combined efforts of Marc
* Edmund Jones and Elsie Wheeler.
-- http://www.sabian.org/ssorigin.htm
I quoted this from Chuang Tzu in another reply gone from
google groups:
When Hui Tzu was prime minister of Liang, Chuang Tzu set off to visit
him. Someone said to Hui Tzu, "Chuang Tzu is coming because he wants
to replace you as prime minister!" With this Hui Tzu was filled with
alarm and searched all over the state for three days and three nights
trying to find Chuang Tzu. Chuang Tzu then came to see him and said,
"In the south there is a bird called the Yuan-ch'u - I wonder if
you've ever heard of it? The Yuan-ch'u rises up from the South Sea and
flies to the North Sea, and it will rest on nothing but the Wu-t'ung
tree, eat nothing but the fruit of the Lien, and drink only from
springs of sweet water. Once there was an owl who had gotten hold of a
half-rotten old rat, and as the Yuan-ch'u passed by, it raised its
head, looked up at the Yuan-ch'u, and said, `Shoo!' Now that you have
this Liang state of yours, are you trying to shoo me?"
This is just what it is and that's all it is! :)
[note t.Mars in the 12th house since a few days and t.s.node
conjunct my natal Jupiter (and Venus and Mars and Orcus)]
)o+
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Forwarded from alt.astrology.tropical (by the author).
alain
--
[Google attractor: Alain Stalder Alain Stalder Alain Stalder
Alain Stalder Alain Stalder Alain Stalder Alain Stalder]
* From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: Hestia
* Date: 28 Jul 2004 14:25:01 GMT
Hestia is an almost invisible greek goddess. The first-born
of Cronos-Saturn and Rhea, she was also the first one that
Cronos swallowed and the last to be released from him. It
appears that the greeks gave the first offering to the gods
usually to Hestia (and seemingly sometimes also the last one).
There is very little mythology around Hestia, she does not
take part in the quarrels of gods or humans. Robert Graves,
in the introduction to "The Greek Myths", written probably
around 1955, relates her to the "Great Goddess" that was
quite homogeneously present across neolithic Europe:
: Ancient Europe had no gods. The Great Goddess was regarded as immortal,
: changeless, and omnipotent; and the concept of fatherhood had not been
: introduced into religious thought. [...] Men feared, adored, and obeyed
: the matriarch; the hearth which she tended in a cave or hut being their
: earliest earliest social centre, and motherhood their prime mystery.
: Not only the moon, but [...] the sun, were the goddess's celestial
: symbols. In earlier Greek myth, however, the sun yields precedence to
: the moon.
Hestia is the goddess of the hearth, which Graves relates to
Delphi's omphalos, which "may originally have represented
the raised white mound of tightly-packed ash, enclosing live
charcoal, which is the easiest way to preserve water without
smoke".
The discovery/invention of fire was certainly the first and
thus most impressive change in humanity's history. It comes
natural that fire was associated with the sun, and judging
from the name "hearth", it appears also the heart (which is
today associated with sun/Leo), the only organ *inside* the
human body that moves...
This suggests that the oldest roots of Leo are female and
related to nature, which is the first and the last thing
that time (Cronos-Saturn) created, like Hestia.
Leo can often be found in beautiful places "just around the
corner", that almost everybody usually overlooks. Respecting
that, I will only give one concrete example, namely the Lion
of Iulis, a large lion sculpted out of the rock on an island
very close to Athens, but difficult to find, because normal
ferries starting from Piraeus do not go there (or at least
did not until recently), you have to take a different path.
[photo]
This suggests the lion to be an ancient guardian of nature
and time, who does not protect using fortresses or heavy
weapons, but by architecture, by knowing and circumventing
the conventions of current times.
The Holy Grail, associated with Leo since at least Jung,
comes to mind. Parsifal does not see the castle until a
fisherman shows it to him. The grail is not invisible, it
is always there, only people normally do not see it.
Except Zeus, who got to overlook everything from the sky,
several gods got leadership over previously female realms:
Hades got the underworld, Poseidon got the sea, which he
apparently never was fully happy with, and Apollon took
over at Delphi from Rhea and Python.
Hestia symbolizes the female core that man can never reach,
expressed in mythology by the wish of Apollon and Poseidon
to marry Hestia, which she refused and apparently caused
her to swear (while touching Zeus' forehead), to remain a
virgin forever. At one instance, drunken Priapus tried to
rape her when she was asleep, but an ass warned her, she
awoke, screamed and Priapus run away in terror.
Nature does not need man in the sense of humanity for her
fertility. Trees grow every year independently of humanity's
wars and troubles.
Currently, I have Neptune (Poseidon) almost opposite my
natal sun in Leo (-Apollon). So, what is it that both of
these opponents desire? I guess it is Hestia, it is nature
in its core. I remember Martin Lewicki on aam quoting Rob
Hand with "Neptune is ultimate reality" (compared to Saturn
which is not). Sun and Neptune are interested in ultimate
answers.
One of the things I did recently, was to contemplate thought
experiments in quantum mechanics, with photons (particles of
light, i.e. sun). The wave function which carries both the
secrets of the world and symbolizes the human view of it, is
represented by the greek letter Psi, i.e. Poseidon-Neptune.
One poster at aat once called my posts "esoteric", which I did
not like, because I am not at all a fan of the "esoteric
movement", but after looking up the inner meaning of the word,
"for the initiated", I could see how this emerges. Abstractly,
it is again an architectural protection of a grail. Anybody
who cares for the same fundamental questions as I do, will be
able to read what I wrote, most others, more bound be the
contemporary conventions and interests will see nothing. That
cannot generally be called the fault of the others, nor mine,
it is a function of time. There is a right time for everything
to become visible, and directing what becomes visible when, is
very important for keeping the world both prosperous and stable.
Take my discoveries: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
The title of the main document is "A few new discoveries in
physics". I loose the attention of most scientifically minded
people already there, since the document clearly is not only
about physics in the contemporary sense, but also about such
impossible subjects (for contemporary science) as astrology,
psychology, history, philosophy, all in one document. If they
really cared about nature, they would probably know that the
word "physics" comes from "physis" which means essentially
nature, including her creative side.
If they proceed, they usually stumble over the first sentence
of the abstract: "People are emotionally connected", assuming
that this is an "esoteric" sentence, something that cannot be
tested experimentally. Quite to the contrary, that sentence is
quite straightforward: The side effects of feelings can very
well be measured by measuring electrical signals and chemical
changes in the brains of two people.
And the contents of the sentence is even more obvious. Please
allow me to use the most extreme example that I could find to
prove it. It is an extreme version of Schrodinger's thought
experiment where a cat is connected to a device that either
kills or does not kill the cat, depending on whether an atom
decays (which can be prepared to be a 50% chance). For all that
it appears in contemporary quantum physics, that assuming that
whether the cat is alive (or dead) before anybody opens the door
to the experimental chamber, leads to paradoxes or would at least
require connections that are faster than light, which would,
in turn, allow to send signals into the future. Now, put a mother
outside the experimental chamber and her only child into it and
connect it to the same mechanism as the cat. Now, who has the
nerve to come forward and claim that the mother would not feel
anything when something happens to her child? Even with perfect
acoustic and electrical insulation, I don't think it would be
possible that that the mother could feel nothing, no matter what
current limited knowledge of nature as expressed by contemporary
science might suggest...
Or take my simple model of the 12 signs of the zodiac. Isn't it
obvious once you heard it that the wound of the Grail's king
(Leo) or the one of Chiron (Sagittarius) are simply the wounds
of a fire that burns as the three fire signs pass through the
zodiac, simply because the wood=earth=body disappears through
the fire and is replaced by air=knowledge=eternity ? (Aries
almost unwounded, only angry, Leo wounded to some degree, and
Sagittarius wounded deadly, but already immortal).
Or water signs: Isn't it obvious that the three water signs are
ice-water-vapour or source-river-sea ? And isn't the internal
consistency, consistent with transformations between elements
in the philosophy of Aristotle (dry/wet, hot/cold), obvious once
you have seen it ? And the more than obvious consequences of
a world where people are emotionally connected ? etc.
But probably, once again, everybody reading this and not aware
of some fundamental questions and issues, will fail to understand
what I "babble" about (as one sceptic scientic reader once remarked
about the style in my main document). Of course, remembering my own
words above, I could do a better job to explain what I mean in
detail and providing a complete path to it, paired with colorfoul
illustrations and not assuming any particular knowledge or even
interest in the subject.
However, it does not feel to me like that time is already now.
In the legend, the castle simply disappears when young Parsifal
failed to ask for the purpose of the grail...
As a guardian of time and nature, apparently the old lion is
close to the nodes.
Alain Stalder
Alan Murphy wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm thinking about making a simple freeware program for use on
> Java-enabled mobile phones, which will give the chart details for a
> given time. So if anyone has any advice, then it'd be greatly
> appreciated :) I presume using the Swiss Ephemeris is the way to go.
In principle, Swiss Ephemeris would be the best choice
(in my opinion), but I suspect it will not fit into today's
cell phones, at least not all of it. Maybe only using the
approximation by Steve Moshier (part of Swiss Ephemeris)
could help to reduce memory requirements.
There is a Java port of Swiss Ephemeris, but I am unable to
tell you anything about how reliable or up-to-date it is:
http://www.th-mack.de/download/index.html
I have myself written a freeware astrology program for
PalmOS devices (in plain C). It is called "Delphi" and
comes with an open source library called "astrolib", which
I also wrote myself, and which does essentially two things:
a) calculates planetary positions of sun, moon and planets
up to Pluto with an accuracy of the order of 1 arc minute
b) allows to obtain time zone data for more than 2000 places
world wide, even for historical dates (accuracy is not
perfect, but it relies on the only freely available data
about time zones that I know of)
More information here:
http://jove.prohosting.com/delphi29
http://jove.prohosting.com/delphi29/astrolib.html
And good luck,
delphi29@excite.com (aka AlainStalder)
I wrote:
: I think I understand now quite a bit more about Hera and how
: she is related to Lilith and Eve, to astrological houses and
: to France and the USA. It is actually quite simple.
:
: Nonetheless, I felt it more appropriate to post my findings
: to alt.astrology.tropical, because the chart of that group
: felt more suitable to be able to express the rather subtle
: attributes of Hera than this group. In addition, I feel it
: was Larry's original post that set the theme for my search.
:
: So, if you want to know, simply point your news browsers to
: alt.astrology.tropical to the post "Hera and Houses". (Note
: that it may take a while until it shows up there, maybe up
: to 24 hours after this post comes through).
:
: It is really astonishing how simple and direct something
: apparently very complex can become if one just looks at it
: from the right angle... :)
:
: Anyone curious ?
The posts "Hera and Houses" (in three parts) are up now.
I hope I didn't promise too much.
Of course, it was also aam's own quarreling couple (Ray and
Christine) that inspired me to the post and the ones before.
Since I have Mars-Venus-Jupiter conjunct (in that order) in
Cancer in the 12th, it relates also quite a bit to at least
some parts of me.
Anyway...
)o+
In today's world, modern communication means have connected
cultures that were previously widely disconnected. This means
that using only the traditional, proven symbolic methods in
one's own culture will still work to some degree, but some of
the connections will be invisible or at least harder to find.
Take London as an example. The recently discovered Plutino
Orcus is at the ascendent of the first 3 bomb explosions.
Since Orcus was apparently more often the name that Romans
used for the Underworld rather than the name of a God, that
creates a clear connection to the three bombs that went off
in London's Underground (<=> Underworld). Since Orcus is a
Plutino (an object in a similar orbit than Pluto), there is
also a quite direct connection to Pluto and thus to the 3
Fates (<=> 3 bombs Underground).
The 4th explosion above ground relates, for example, to the
World Ash Yggdrasil from Nordic/German mythology. Yggdrasil
has three roots in the earth and one trunk up in the air.
There are lots of creatures living on that tree. But maybe
the meaning of Yggdrasil in this context can only be fully
understand with some directness by relating it to the animal
besides the eagle that lives on top of Yggdrasil, and thus
is related to the number 4: A cock.
This year is the Chinese Year of the Rooster (cock). When
Buddha was about to die, it is said that animals came to meet
him to show their reference to his achievements. All of them
were put into the Chinese zodiac in return. The Rooster was
very lucky in that respect, because he had no clue what was
going on, just came there by chance, he even had to ask the
Horse what the meeting was all about.
The fundamentalist attacks of recent years (9/11, 3/11, 7/7
or "Shock and Awe") are certainly also "Pluto in Sagittarius",
some dark and heavy blows of thunder (<=> Jupiter/Zeus, who is
both traditional and modern ruler of Sagittarius).
In about 2 years, Pluto will enter Capricorn. Naively this
would imply that only then it will be necessary to focus more
on capricornian issues. But Pluto is a collective planet. If
people are supposed to see "Pluto in Capricorn" movies and to
read such books, etc., some people have to start to do create
some more capricornian things already now, so that they will
be accessible to a broader audience further ahead.
In that sense, here is something useful. It is something that
can be used in any culture and any symbolic system, because
it is natural and derives essentially from first principles.
Imagine you have a box filled with about hundred Lego bricks.
Half of them are red, half of them are blue. Now draw blindly
4 bricks and put them into a line. There are 16 possible
results (R=red, B=blue):
BBBB, BBBR, BBRB, BBRR
BRBB, BRBR, BRRB, BRRR
RBBB, RBBR, RBRB, RBRR
RRBB, RRBR, RRRB, RRRR
All of these results have a probability of 1/16 (6.25%). They
group naturally into three groups:
4+0 ("all same")
3+1 ("three same, one different")
2+2 ("two pairs")
The probabilities for these are (just count and add):
4+0 12.5%
3+1 50%
2+2 37.5%
So, the event 3+1 is the most likely one, more likely than
4+0 or 2+2.
Interestingly, this is even so if you do not have 50 red and
50 blue Lego bricks. As long as you have more than about 10
bricks of one kind (and thus less than 90 of the other kind),
3+1 is always the most likely outcome.
Therefore, whenever you encounter 4 things in your life, they
are most likely to carry some properties that fit the "3+1"
prediction.
I, for example, have four planets in the 12th house. Venus,
Mars and Jupiter are closely conjunct around 20 Cancer, while
Mercury is just barely in Leo. Venus/Mars/Jupiter are direct,
while Mercury is retrograde. The three are unconnected to any
house cusps, while Mercury is closely conjunct the ascendent.
Mercury is about to go direct within about a day.
But the application does not stop there. Any 4 things that you
might encounter as an astrologer will do. Maybe someone has 4
strong trines in his/her chart. Then likely one of them will be
different in one way, maybe one of the 4 trines will involve
collective planets and the others will involve individual ones
or only one of the trines will be above the horizon, etc.
Or maybe a client will tell the astrological counselor a dream
that mentions four things of a kind or say that she/he was one
of 4 sisters/brothers, and so on. That is what makes "3+1" so
useful, that you can apply it universally, independent of the
culture and time you are living in.
But back a little bit to Pluto in Sagittarius.
It appears that the 4 bombers had the following in mind:
1) Meet at King's Cross in the morning
2) Take different Underground trains, N/S/E/W
3) At the time in the morning when the first plane hit 9/11,
i.e. at around 8:50, ignite the bombs to create a cross
of destruction
In Ovid's Metamorphoses, a rich text about Mythology that was
written at the beginning of the "Common Epoch", shortly after
the year 0, he describes a contest between Minerva (Athene)
and mortal Arachne.
The contest consists of weaving a cloth. Goddess Athene weaves
a fairly beautiful cloth that shows the virtues of the gods.
But Arachne is much more skilled at weaving than Athene and
creates a much more sophisticated piece of art. However, she
could not resist to focus on rather showing the vices of the
Gods than their virtues. That is why she lost the contest.
Athene got so angry that she teared apart the work of Arachne
and turned her into a spider. (A spider because spiders create
beautiful webs, but beauty is not their web's main purpose).
Since this is a story told in the early Age of Pisces, it has
already a morale that goes already a bit beyond "avoid hubris".
Anyone involved in this conflict, please question yourselves
whether your motives are "good" or "bad".
Back to 3+1.
Planning something that has "four of the same" is in some sense
against the gods. Averaged over all events in nature, 4+0 does
only occur 1/8 of the time (see above). Much more likely is it
to get 3+1 (or 2+2). That is from where the tension in squares
also in astrology arises.
The laws of nature tend to force any attempt to create something
that is "4 of the same" into mainly something that is 3+1. The
4th bomber, the youngest of the four, could not get the train
and thus took the bus, but not into the desired direction, and
through the delay could not ignite the bomb at the desired time.
This broke 3 elements of "sameness", 4x Underground, all four
points of the compass, 4x same time.
There is also an element of Hope in this 4th naive bomber, that
reminds also a bit of the Rooster. Unlike the other 3 who acted
like machines, this one at least showed some human traits. But
that is still a far cry from simply taking the backpack to the
police once he was above ground.
Anyway, I hope at least some readers have learned something
useful in this post that goes beyond contemporary events and
will last a bit beyond the next five minutes.
The main material in this post is based on the following
sentence in "A few new discoveries in physics", Section 4:
: If you toss four coins, there is a 12.5% chance of having
: four equal faces, a 37.5% chance of having two pairs, and
: a 50% chance of having 3+1, i.e. the chance that the fourth
: is different is really higher than any other combination.
-- http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
There is a lot more useful stuff in the document, but only to
readers who are willing to invest the necessary work.
Please note that is post is somewhat incomplete. There is an
additional important trait to 3+1, namely that parents do pass
on most of their own traits to their first child, which makes
the second child typically different from the parents. So,
there is also a notion 3 first, then the fourth that has its
root much more in fate than in abstract considerations (c.f.
Jupiter in Libra, Teiresias, Paris, etc.).
I am Swiss, the only country with a square flag, a white cross
with four equal sides placed on a red ground. Switzerland is more
than 700 years old, has most of its planets in Leo and has had
to learn in its long history how one can please the gods and
still carry the number 4 with pride and without much tensions.
One of the keys to that, is to stay at the center and respect
the gods.
)o+
LibraLove wrote:
: More clearly put, my Xena is in Aries is in my 9th house exactly square
: my Sun is in the 11th -- not sure about your question.
:
: I think our society tries to pigeonhole people's sexuality. I remember
: when my ex- husband began his overtly homosexual partnership a few
: years after our divorce a friend of mine said, "He's Brazilian, so...
: sexuality is not as cut and dry as it is in this society of ours". She
: may be right on on that account.
:
: I think of one of my favorite Brazilian actresses, Sonia Braga, who
: played in a few sexy movies as a hetero female, may be gay or maybe
: not. I have heard she is. You may remember "Gabriela" and "Dona Flor
: and her Two Husbands" and a fairly recent part on "Sex in the City" as
: the lesbian lover of one of the women in the show. She was also
: involved with Robert Redford for a few years I believe.
:
: One older woman friend of mine after 3-4 husbands/live-in male
: relationships, now has a female partner. My ex-husband was a perfectly
: fine husband sexually and father of our son until I could not make
: enough money to keep up with all of our shopping and he had problems
: with the bigotry and attitude against hispanics (and very dark haired
: people period) in Texas and moved back to NYC after 8-1/2 years.
:
: He and his partner live in a NYC apartment with our son who attends
: college at UCLA (university on the corner of Lexington Avenue) or
: Baruch College for business. My son was worried that since his father
: turned out to be gay, maybe I was lesbian since he has never seen me
: with anyone but an embarassing moment with Mr. Man. That moment lead to
: 13 years of celibacy for me and a lot of time to play the hot,
: handsome, sexy bachelor for Mr. Man. LOL
:
: Anyway, I think you maybe be treading on a slippery slope with dividing
: up the sexual appetites in people, like my friend said about
: Brazilians, sexuality is just NOT all that cut and dry. People are very
: flexible, IMO, in that regard and a sexual lifestyle during one decade
: in their life may or may not work in following the decades.
:
: My sexual feelings toward Mr. Man are because he is so intelligent,
: funny, handsome and he kisses so good. He also has the physical
: equipment I prefer, so he is my choice. I have never met a woman I was
: sexually attracted to, but who knows if that could happen. I firmly
: believe from life's experience that I it is wise to never say never
: about most things except those that are cruel or illegal.
The brazilian flag is special in a way, because it has a
motto inscribed on it:
"Ordem e Progresso" (Order and Progress)
in a white band that seems to symbolize the milky way.
This is quite obviously male Saturn, i.e. Aquarius.
This reminds me of the movie "Brazil", by Terry Gilliam,
a former member of the four lads in Monty Python. In that
movie, at the beginning someone is arrested out of the blue
because of a glitch in technology (a fly on a typewriter
printer changes a name slightly). Reminds, of course, also
quite a bit of the guy who was "mistakenly" shot in the head
by the London police. He was brazilian. Saturn in Leo.
At least where I live, around the same time, a Coke ad was
shown in which a young brazilian man helps out a woman who
apparently has no ticket for the subway. They are standing
in the subway train and controllers are approaching. The man
sees from the expression in the face of the woman that she
has no ticket. When the subway stops, he runs out, followed
by the controllers, runs up stairs and back down, is stopped
by a controller, shows his ticket and then runs back into
the subway train.
Reminds me of chapter 11 bankruptcy and Heracles 11th labour,
where things fail in a way and are still pulled through;
progress advances, just with a little modification and with
people accepting some loss for the sake of continued progress.
Eleventh house, thus related to Aquarius. The two pillars
in that house number remind also of the glyph for Gemini.
Leads also to the scence in a subway station in the Matrix.
Neo meets there an Indian couple of software developers and
their young daughter. The man says "Love is just a word".
In other words, "love is just Air". Love is also life, which
is why "live" and "love" are so similar, just one key away
from each other on the ususal QWERTZ keyboard.
With Saturn in Leo, people are maybe more likely to be a
bit too imprecise in crucial matters and might type "live"
instead of "love" from purely abstract considerations,
which leads back to Brazil...
)o+
Juhana Harju wrote:
: John Roth wrote:
: : The IAU has just named UB-313 (I think I remember the
: : number properly) as Eris, with moon Discordia.
:
: According to Wikipedia the moon is named Dysnomia.
.... which is usually translated as "lawlessness", a clear
hint at the actress who played Xena: Lucy Lawless ;)
)o+
Apollia wrote:
: Cool, I like it... :-)
:
: Here are the Wikipedia articles on them both:
:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/136199_Eris
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysnomia_%28moon%29
:
: Hermes wrote:
: > Juhana Harju wrote:
: > : John Roth wrote:
: > : : The IAU has just named UB-313 (I think I remember the
: > : : number properly) as Eris, with moon Discordia.
: > :
: > : According to Wikipedia the moon is named Dysnomia.
: >
: > .... which is usually translated as "lawlessness", a clear
: > hint at the actress who played Xena: Lucy Lawless ;)
: >
: > )o+
:
: Yes, I noticed that while I was looking at the Wikipedia
: article about Dysnomia. Weird, and neat... :-)
:
: So now perhaps we have some modern made-up mythology
: mixed up with ancient made-up mythology. Very interesting.
:
: Does this mean that "Xena: Warrior Princess" is a valid source
: of material for making up astrological delineations from? Or
: how about the "joke religion" Discordianism... :-)
:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism
:
: I've long had a slight interest in the modern made-up brand
: of occultism named "chaos magick", which is pretty much
: "make it up as you go along" occultism.
:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magick
:
: I wonder if astrological Eris is associated with such things.
In that sense, let me simply present a few more associations,
in form of a post that I made to alt.astrology.tropical in
summer 2005.
[BEGIN REPOST]
* NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 05:20:02 -0500
* From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: Turanga Leela
* Organization: exactphilosophy.net
* Message-ID: <hermes-C75AA6.09592231072005@news.sunrise.ch>
* Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:14:12 CST
Hi there,
This is an attempt of a postmodern post related to the discovery
of Planet X (2003UB313, "Planet Lila", likely to be named Xena).
One key property of postmodern art is that things are placed side
by side without being much related to each other. Or rather, the
relations do still exist, but they are not so bluntly shown, they
are rather felt.
That makes postmodernism aquarian. It is a Utopia where different
cultures coexist peacefully without disturbing each other, but
rather harmonically balancing each other.
Aquarius is the last Air sign, the last in a transformation from
Fire (Gemini) to Water, a transformation of visual impressions by
the conscious mind into a feeling of "universal love". Of course,
failure is also part of any Utopia, but that is rather due to the
mistake that most people do when confronted with Utopias, namely
that they try to realize them. That is when they turn sour.
So, this is just art, with lots of astrological connections, but
the individual images are rather at the center, not so much the
connections, at least not explicitly so. Feel free to see your
own set of connections in the following or to create you own new
images from it (or independently of it).
Maybe a look at the "superflat" art of 1962 born Japanese artist
Takashi Murakami can better explain what I mean than millions of
words:
http://images.google.com/images?q=takashi%20murakami
So here it comes, rather it already started above...
Turanga Leela is the one-eyed girl in Futurama:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanga_Leela
Having just a single eye is not ideal for a space pilot, her view
of the world is automatically "superflat".
It was first assumed that she is an alien, but in a later episode
it turned out that she was rather homegrown, the child of mutants
that live below the surface of NYC in the year 3000.
Turangalila is the name of a symphony written by french composer
Olivie Messiaen between 1946 and 48, a bit like a counterreaction
to the 1930's Pluto and Lilith and the war.
Turanga and Lila are Sanskrit words, "together meaning something
like 'love song and hymn of joy, time, movement, rythm, life and
death' (source: wikipedia, follow link above).
A few days ago I saw a concert in Montreal by Maxime Morin (born
1966/6/6) that took place July 5th/05, all in the rain (Aquarius)
with several "songs" flowing into each other, mixed with other
impressions. The recent album "Chill 'Em All" has 11 songs on it.
Brno is a city in what is now Slovakia, Milan Kundera was born
there, as well as Vera Linhartova, and Miroslav Tichy near there.
The first two have the sun in Aries.
I went to an exposition of the photos of Miroslav Tichy at Zurich's
Kunsthaus Friday afternoon, almost random photos of women that he
took with self-made cameras during the cold war. Tarzan in Pension.
The exhibition did not impress me much, at least not compared to
what I had already seen on the web, but the shop at the Museum did
bring me into contact with Murakami's superflat postmodern art.
Vera Linhartova's "Geschichten ohne Zusammenhang" (stories without
connections) was published in 1965 in german. I only read the first
story, a description of a building that reminded me both of the
12th house in astrology and of the temple of Amun in Karnak near
Luxor (I had a discussion Wednesday with my parents which one was
the more beautiful one to them when they visited in 1964 or so).
Vera Linhartova, emigrated to Paris (like Kundera) has also written
a book called "Dadaism and Surrealism in Japan".
Heracles' 11th task is related to friendship in a peculiar way: He
did relieve Atlas from his burden of carrying the world, but only
for a short time. That is what friends do, they can make fate a bit
lighter to bear, but switching places is not really an option.
At the end of the labour, apparently everything is back to where it
was before, Atlas is again carrying the world, Hera got her 3 apples
back via Athene, but one tiny detail has changed:
The dragon at the foot of the tree (like at Yggdrasil) is now dead.
The babylonian epic Gilgamesh (Age of Aries) with much older roots
(Sumerian, Age of Taurus; Iranian, Age of Gemini), well, it exists.
Astrological houses, it appears, because they are about Earth and
Air, are static, are tasks, like Heracles' labours or levels in a
video game. Conversely, the signs of the zodiac would be flowing,
would be about Fire and Water, about a path and feelings.
That might imply freedom and restrictions of a different kind when
relating to signs or houses. Gilgamesh learns a lot in the 11 clay
tablets.
The king is related to Saturn and Leo.
Liz Greene's introduction in her book "Saturn - A new look at an old
Devil" is a good example of the duality inherent in Saturn. Although
for all appearances, she consciously mainly associates Saturn with
its current female and only only ruler Capricorn, here associations
with esoteric levels etc. describe the male side indirectly, too.
Reminds of Robert Hand's talk about the Sepher Yetzirah, which was
apparently based on "Astrology by Hand Week 22", see list here:
http://www.stariq.com/AstrologyByHandLib.HTM
In article 25, in which I find he had a particularly lucky hand (a
hand has 5 fingers, 25 = 5 x 5) he describes the relation between
passages of fixed stars at the winter solistice, which I found due
to John Roth's recent remarks at aam. He talks about Ceasars there,
and their relation to Sagittarius.
The first Ceasar, Julius, is related to the home island of his clan,
namely the island Iulis, with its famous lion sculpture (cf. post
about Hestia last year).
The year 1270, where the first star in the arrow of the archer passed,
relates to Wilhelm Tell (and Batman, too).
Angels.
He also mentions Ophiuchus, the constellation where the Quaoar was
found, is holding the serpent "of nuclear power"; in 1942, the year
Robert Hand was born, the first start of the serpent passed the
winter solistice, in 2017 (i.e. quite soon), the last will pass.
Neptune had 5 pairs of twin brothers (5 x 2 = 10) and the cyclope
in the Odyssey was his son. Leela is a cyclope.
Planet Xena is speculated to have its titled orbit (44 degrees, 4x11
and also close to 1/8 of the circle) due to interaction with Neptune.
Xena, like Hercules, has a companion, the "teenage which". In an
episode of the Simpsons, Lucy Lawless always says that she is Lucy
Lawless, not Xena, also when she flies away with Bart in the end.
Turanga Leela, determined, but also a bit insecure and nice.
[...]
[END REPOST]
Some hints regarding a recent post:
- Where's Eris in Mengele's chart relocated to Auschwitz ?
(In my view this breaks the symmetry and removes some of
the scariness, thus indicating that the collective was
not significantly aware of Eris at the time...)
- Mengele was born in Gunzburg, which reminds me of astrologer
Darrelyn Gunzburg, who is mentioned in the dedication of
Bernadette Brady's Book of Fixed Stars, which made me
immediately suspect a Xena-Gabrielle theme (sorry, but my
Neptune in Scorpio at the s.node sometimes sees ghosts);
Darrelyn Gunzburg has recently made a very interesting
interview with Liz Greene, conforming also my suspicion that
Liz Greene is the younger of two children (her older brother
Richard Leigh was in the news this spring due to a lawsuit
against the author of The Da Vinci Code, while she was at an
ISAR seminar in Tuscany about astrology and renaissance) --
the fourth is different. Here's a link to the interview:
http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/InterviewLizGreene.pdf
- I don't know about Bernadette Brady, but the others are of
Jewish origin and thus unavoidably their fates are somewhat
related to the legacy of the holocaust.
- America's singular success in the 20th century after the
discovery of Pluto is arguably related a lot to Pluto.
The atomic bomb was built essentially with help of Jewish
scientists who escaped the Nazis, while the flight to the
moon was arguably helped considerably by former Nazi
scientists. Today, NASA has trouble to keep up with the
high public expectations of repeating something like the
first flight to the moon. This explains also a bit the
strong reaction of some US scientists regarding Pluto's
recategorization, spearheaded by NASA astronomer Alan
Stern, who is the head of NASA's space mission to Pluto
and who wrote a book about Pluto and Charon.
Hope these partial insights will not spur up too much anger,
but Mars is in Libra, a clear Eris theme (Paris/Trojan War).
At least these things are already in my view a little bit
less fated and heavy, as is maybe best seen in the fact that
Natascha Kampusch was able to escape "Pluto's Cave" just a
day after things turned around at the IAU assembly and a day
before Pluto was officially recategorized (reminds me also
of the symmetry in Mengele's chart). Vienna, where Freud
sort of started it all (or not really, but brought it out).
I read in the news that Natascha Kampusch had already tried
a bit earlier to escape and had already been at the garden
gate, but then suddenly felt too dizzy to step out and so
secretly slipped back into the house.
This is, of course, also a Virgo theme.
)o+
--
PS: See http://www.exactphilosophy.net for more, especially
the file odyssey.zip that can be downloaded in the archive
section, which contains practically all my usenet posts (I
had them all removed from google's archives and also deleted
all private backups, but forgot one at my parents place, from
where I could reconstruct a practically complete list), and
also the two singular documents that emerged during the Pluto
Saturn opposition around 9/11 and other events around that
time: discoveries.pdf and review.pdf.
James Aronis wrote:
: What's more interesting to me from an astrological perspective is the
: official reclassification of Pluto to equivalent status as the
: newly-christened Eris and other 'dwarf planets.' It has recently been
: annointed as '134340 Pluto' further subsuming it in the current dubious
: planetary nomenclature quagmire. With this official designation, it is
: truly indistict from other Kuiper belt objects vying for their own
: place in the sun...
I agree.
From a purely scientific point of view, it is simply so that
Pluto is no planet; that decision was in my opinion unavoidable
(it might have been postponed, but not avoided in the end).
But except that, all attempts should be made to retain some of
Pluto's dignity. I would prefer Pluto not to be numbered, or at
least to be given a very special number (Quaoar got at least
the number 50000). The choice of name for 2003 UB313 is also
inconsistent: You can't have a relatively minor goddess (Eris)
be physically larger than one of the three brothers who defeated
Cronos and the Titans (Zeus/Jupiter, Poseidon/Neptune and Pluto)
and brought about the Greek Pantheon that still shapes our
contemporary culture more than anything else. Since nobody wants
to rename Pluto, 2003 UB313 should get the name of major deity
from the Greeco-Roman Pantheon, even if that name has to be taken
away from one of the asteroids (Juno, Vesta, ...).
"Xena", although being just a character in a TV series, did there
at least stand up to all the major gods (and in the later episodes
even killed most of them, along quite a few more weird things),
the symbolism of "Xena" is clearly a bit more modern than the one
of Eris. Xena reminds more of the male side of Mars (related to
Aries), while Eris (at least one of them) is the female side of
Mars (related to Scorpio, like Pluto).
www.save-xena.org
www.dont-goedelize-pluto.net
I don't think there is any realistic chance to keep Pluto a planet,
but a few details around that might make quite a big difference.
But, I doubt enough people will fight for the these, unfortunately.
Obviously, I would still vote for Athena. :)
)o+
I wrote:
: From a purely scientific point of view, it is simply so that
: Pluto is no planet; that decision was in my opinion unavoidable
: (it might have been postponed, but not avoided in the end).
:
: But except that, all attempts should be made to retain some of
: Pluto's dignity. [...]
Jupiter's in Scorpio, so there is a tendency to maybe cut off
lightly more than absolutely necessary. As I said, in my view,
removing planetary status from Pluto was necessary at some
point in time, but nothing more. As much of the rest should
stay with Pluto.
Also Saturn is in Leo, so there is often too little heart in
what people decide, which reminds me of part 2 of the movie
"Pirates of the Caribbean", where Davy Jones, the captain of
the "Flying Dutchman" keeps his heart literally in a chest
that is buried on an island...
A kiss on the spine...
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: Well, I have t Pluto crossing my ascendant and I definitely don't
: think it's lost its punch! Of course, I also have the Saturn Neptune
: opposition squaring my Mars, ruler of my 4th and 11th. Domestic
: issues and friendships are suffering, and I am being plagued by all
: sorts of mysterious health problems (Pluto over Ascendant, Neptune in
: the 6th House of Solar Return, loaded 12th House in Solar Return, Mars
: square natal Saturn in Solar Return, with Death Axis rising in Solar
: Return). If I make it through this year it will be a miracle. I am
: in extreme pain.
Mean Black Moon Lilith is conjunct the s.node and at a tight
square to Pluto. Lilith will have moved out of orb by the end
of the year, the nodes will take a bit longer. Things might
appear (<=> AC) darker than they really are at the moment.
Please be reminded that I am not a professional astrologer,
so I may have overlooked something crucial.
Good luck and best wishes!
Apollia wrote:
: Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean by symmetry.
Relocated MC in the middle between sun and Mercury. Libra.
Only sign named after an object and not after a living
thing (animal/human). Ma'at. Eris does not feel to me to
fit in there, tight square to Pluto or not. My feelings in
such matters are rarely wrong, but sometimes still are...
Thanks a lot for the detailed and researched replies,
especially in the "postmodern section". This is rare
in usenet. :)
* 7 August 1966 at 4:12 AM in Zurich (Switzerland)
Note asteroid 432 Pythia conjunct the n.node...
)o+
PS: Pedantus invented this glyph for Jupiter: 2|
Pedantus wrote:
: Hermes wrote:
: > Apollia wrote:
: >
: > : Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean by symmetry.
: >
: > Relocated MC in the middle between sun and Mercury. Libra.
: > Only sign named after an object and not after a living
: > thing (animal/human). Ma'at. Eris does not feel to me to
: > fit in there, tight square to Pluto or not. My feelings in
: > such matters are rarely wrong, but sometimes still are...
: >
: > Thanks a lot for the detailed and researched replies,
: > especially in the "postmodern section". This is rare
: > in usenet. :)
: >
: > * 7 August 1966 at 4:12 AM in Zurich (Switzerland)
: >
: > Note asteroid 432 Pythia conjunct the n.node...
: >
: > )o+
: >
: > PS: Pedantus invented this glyph for Jupiter: 2|
: >
:
: Alain,
: I completely forgot about that...:)
:
: BTW, I have to eat some crusty roadkill crow here--I finally found the
: appropriate image of "scissors" as you called them:
: "rustic shears":
: http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a3.gif
: http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a1.gif
: http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
:
:
: Being ignorant of "shears", without a reference image, I was totally
: convinced I saw dividers, as in Blake's Ancient of Days:
: http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/blake/ancient.jpg
: http://pedantus.free.fr/Blake_Wm_01a.gif
: http://pedantus.free.fr/Blake_Perception_01.gif
Cool, thanks a lot! :)
And (delayed) congratulations to the birth of you granddaughter. :)
Thanks again!
Apollia wrote:
: >At least these things are already in my view a little bit
: >less fated and heavy, as is maybe best seen in the fact that
: >Natascha Kampusch was able to escape "Pluto's Cave" just a
: >day after things turned around at the IAU assembly and a day
: >before Pluto was officially recategorized
:
: Had to look this up, since I didn't know anything about this
: story.
:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch
:
: Whew, what a terrible story... definitely very Plutonian-sounding,
: too. Glad she got away.
:
: Speaking of August 23, 2006... come to think of it, I impulsively
: started posting on alt.astrology.moderated again late on Aug. 23,
: 2006, after more than a year of silence.
:
: Boy, was I surprised when Pluto was "demoted" the very next day. :-)
Excerpt from a French secret service report that apparently leaked
to a French newspaper, and which claims that Osama Bin Laden died
about a month ago, 23 August 2006:
: "The chief of al-Qaida was a victim of a severe typhoid crisis while in
: Pakistan on August 23, 2006," the document says. His geographic isolation
: meant that medical assistance was impossible, the French report said,
: adding that his lower limbs were allegedly paralyzed.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4209117.html
Not sure at all at the moment whether the report will be confirmed
or not, but apparently at least the report exists.
Typhus in Greek mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon
)o+
Two maybe very different replies regarding apparently the
same topic (chiral, left and right)...
Pedantus wrote:
: [...] And if a
: myth can be resolved, named, catagorized--demystifed as philosophical of
: psychological truth, then it is not a myth at all.
I agree, this is what makes myths so beautiful, especially the
greek ones. For me, myths are more like muses that can produce
many interesting concrete things, without ever substantially
losing their richness, if at all. The view of psychological
astrology is usually that there is some room to move: While
the stage is set and the play has essentially been written,
actors for the various roles (Cheiron, Eris, Peleus, Zeus,
Themis, Aphrodite, ...) have not necessarily been casted yet...
Sometimes it is almost impossible to get the desired role,
sometimes likely one is practically doomed to a particular
role, but generally there is quite a bit of opportunity to
chose from and to arrange things into, and, of course, there
is seldom only one piece of mythology to chose from...
Richard Nolle wrote:
: chompergirl wrote:
: > Found this. Anyone have thoughts?
:
: > http://www.orphicart.com/w_chiron.htm
:
: It's an interesting essay. The notion that confronting your
: wound leads to its healing is encouraging of course. But as
: the Chiron myth - the whole of Greek mythology in fact -
: tells us, we cannot ultimately heal our wounds. Ultimately,
: they kill us. Embracing that - there's the wisdom of Chiron.
I agree. Has not been easy to get to that for me, but in my
feeling Cheiron is really essentially Sagittarian (the myths
that describe how the constellation came to be usually feature
Cheiron or another centaur), is what can be done to alleviate
the previous decisions of Scorpio (or the second Fate). With
wisdom and fantasy a lot can be done to reduce the wounds that
invariably are created when decisions are made, when things
are cut, but the decisions themselves are spoken (fate).
I guess this reveals a deeper look at why Cheiron is apparently
so prominent in charts of beginning and end of love. There is
apparently something very fated about these moments - and also
seemingly a lot of fantasy and wisdom is required to make the
thus formed relations work in more or less in harmony.
This post reminds me of a passage in a postmodern novel called
"How to bring up girls in Bohemia" by Michal Viewegh (1962-3-31)
in which he describes a bus journey written in what reminds me
a lot of the style of Milan Kundera, while I am here apparently
(with conscious intention to do so) maybe citing Liz Greene's
style a bit, or also some more people from her generation.
I have Cheiron at 25 Pisces (Saturn at 29 Pisces) in the 9th,
currently closely conjunct the transiting n.node. Sabian Symbol
for 25-26 Pisces (it's new moon now, and Ramadan (cf. also Eris
and Pisces glyphs) has just about started, with Mean Black Moon
Lilith at about 27 Virgo, conjuct transiting s.node):
: Watching The Very Thin Moon Crescent Appearing At Sunset,
: Different People Realize That The Time Has Come To Go Ahead
: With Their Different Projects
Bye, P., no way around fate...
Some takes at that piece of greek mythology. No claims
of completeness nor uniqueness nor freedom of bias, etc.
The Discord between Sun and Moon
Eris throws the golden apple labeled "KALLISTI" between
the three goddesses Aphrodite, Athena and Hera.
The golden apple represents the sun:
In astrology, gold is associated with the sun. Robert Graves
suggests in "The Greek Myths" that the name "Apollon" of the
solar greek god might derive from "aplos" ("apple") instead
of the usual "destroyer".
The three goddesses represent the moon:
In fact, the triple moon goddess in her 3 phases. The moon
that is getting fuller, the full (pregnant) moon, and the
moon that is getting thinner again: young girl, adult mother,
and old woman (although in this myth it is already no longer
so specific which goddess is which phase).
One source of discord between sun and moon is the difference
between the solar year, divided somewhat arbitrarily into
12 months, while a year contains something between 12 and 13
lunar cycles. This shows most prominently in the fairy tale
"Sleeping Beauty", where the king (sun) only has 12 golden
plates (12 solar months), which angers the 13th fairy.
Eris could also be seen as the 4th phase of the moon, when
the moon is invisible, which is also when the lunar month
Ramadan starts and stops. While Arabs use a lunar calendar,
in Iran, a solar calendar is used.
It appears that words such as "Ares", "Eris", "Aries",
"Aryan", "Orion", "Iran", "Eros", "Erin" (and even "Alain")
all have the same root (it's "turtles all the way down").
Libra's Leo/Sun and Sagittarius/Jupiter Opportunities
What makes Zeus, the boss of the greek pantheon so greek is
that he was able to escape the fate of his predecessors, which
was to be killed by one of his sons (Ouranos killed by Cronos,
Cronos killed by Zeus).
He avoids this fate essentially by letting humans decide and
act instead of doing that himself. Again a theme related to a
transition from a female age (Taurus) to a male one (Aries).
The male, conscious actions and decisions prevail above the
collective and largely unconscious wishes (the gods), which
are female in nature.
Zeus does, unlike with other women, NOT himself chase Thetis
while changing into different beasts and then finally beget her.
(In even earlier stories it is a female goddess who chases the
male through the seasons and devours him). No, because it has
been prophesized that any child born from Thetis would be
stronger than its father, Zeus choses the human Peleus to marry
Thetis instead. Instructed by Cheiron, Peleus awaits Thetis near
the cave in which she usually sleeps at noon. He also does not
rape her, he only holds her tightly while she changes into many
different beasts, until she gives in by herself. So, the human
way of doing this makes also a literal difference.
But it also causes a backlash from the collective, unconscious
side, the unhappiness of the female age that some power about
how things are dealt with is lost. That is Eris who throws the
golden apple at the marriage of Peleus and Thetis.
Cheiron (or another centaur in different versions) is the one
who became the constellation Sagittarius, ruled by Zeus/Jupiter.
Robert Graves mentions that Peleus may have been a centaur in
some lost classical accounts of the trojan war (The Greek Myths,
81.4). Peleus' son by Thetis was the hero Achilles.
The second human interference is that a mortal shepherd, Paris
decides which of the 3 goddesses is the fairest.
Astrologically, this myth contains a lot of freedom/opportunity,
in form of the sextile between Zeus/Jupiter (Sagittarius) and
Libra (humans deciding matters of the gods), plus the similar
opportunity between Libra and Leo (sun, golden apple). Zeus does
seize the opportunities in order to avoid the cycles that would
apparently doom him to be killed by his son, like his ancestors;
while Paris balances the different opportunities and choses one.
Venus' Victory
Human beings (some astronomers), not gods decided this summer
which objects in space are planets and which are not.
They chose to have only one full planet to be named after a
goddess, Venus, just like only one goddess got the golden apple,
the same Venus/Aphrodite, goddess of love and beauty.
It had been clear from onset in summer 2005 when the discovery
of Eris/"Xena" had been announced that whatever name that object
would get, the name would be of a goddess rather than of a god.
(That is due to current times, with Neptune and previously with
Uranus in Aquarius). So, for Venus/Aphrodite this meant either
to get female concurrence (if Eris/"Xena" becomes a planet) or
to remain the sole female planet in the zodiac.
Just like in the myth, she won exclusively.
Moreover, one could say that she sent the sister, Eris, of her
nighttime lover Ares/Mars to defeat at the same time the guy,
Pluto, who had taken rulership over Scorpio away from Mars in
1930.
It would appear that also in that sense, she has won.
Eagle meets Eagle
Actually this does not really fit in. But it is related to myth
in real life and to Libra and Jupiter/Sagittarius, so:
In "The Astrology of Fate", Liz Greene describes an anecdote
about someone called Gerhard Adler ("Adler" means "eagle").
: ... through two nights with hardly any sleep. On the following
: morning, a Sunday, I was pretty fagged out. So I was not at all
: pleased when the telephone call of a friend woke me up, inviting
: me to a party he was going to throw that afternoon. I refused,
: but, in the end, the persuasive power of my friend won the day
: and I went. As I entered the room, my then very susceptible eye
: was immediately caught by the sight of a beautiful girl. When my
: friend introduced me to her, the introduction went like this:
: 'Dr Adler - Mrs Adler.
(Weiser, 1984, p. 270)
In greek mythology, Zeus let two eagles fly, one from each side
of the world (east and west). They met in the center of the world,
where the omphalos was placed and Delphi was founded.
In my elementary model of the zodiac, the Air signs transform
Fire via Air to Water. The quickness of fire (previous two nights,
two linked to Gemini's duality) eases down through insights (Air)
and develops into feelings (Water). The cloud that first only
emits random lightning (Fire) starts the more continuous and
equally distributed production of rain (Water).
Caveat
The sun, Venus and Mars are in Libra. So, some insights here
have likely not been thought through to the bottom, although
at least Mercury is already in Scorpio.
)o+
[please note crosspost]
I hope this is not too abstract for everybody. Some might remember
previous posts under the same subject, where I tried to define the
4+1 elements as follows:
IN/OUT: space
REST/MOVE: time
FIRE:= OUT+MOVE
EARTH:= OUT+REST
WATER:= IN+MOVE
AIR:= IN+REST
ETHER:= what transforms the above elements
I was also able to connect these definitions to Aristotle's view
of the elements:
dry/wet = OUT/IN
active/passive: FIRE and AIR are active / WATER and EARTH are passive
hot/cold = active/passive
See the introduction on my site http://www.exactphilosophy.net
for more details (section "elementary philosophy" plus its four
subsections; I hope to add illustrations this xmas/new year).
What I am interested in in this post is how I might get from
the 4+1 elements to a circle. What would be the most natural
way of arranging the 4 elements in a circle?
Culturally, I know the following arrangements:
1) Aristotle assigned elements to seasons as follows:
Spring: Air
Summer: Fire
Autumn: Earth
Winter: Water
The idea is that in spring things get warmer, i.e. Water becomes
Air, then things dry out, i.e. Air becomes Fire, then things get
colder again, i.e. Fire becomes Earth, and finally things get wet,
i.e. Earth becomes Water. The watery wet view of winter is still
reflected in the winter signs of the zodiac: Goat Fish (Capricorn),
Water Bearer (Aquarius) and fish (Pisces).
Aristotle's circle is generally based on only one of hot/cold or
dry/wet flipping per transition between elements.
2) In the zodiac, elements come in the following order (e.g. Aries
followed by Taurus, then Gemini and Cancer):
Fire
Earth
Air
Water
3) Seasons have also been assigned to elements based on the element
of the cardinal sign that starts the season:
Spring: Fire (Aries)
Summer: Water (Cancer)
Autumn: Air (Libra)
Winter: Earth (Capricorn)
4) Allow me to add also my personal favorite:
1 - Fire (spring)
2 - Air (summer)
3 - Water (autumn)
4 - Earth (winter)
Note that 1) and 4) are the same circle (one going the opposite way
round than the other), while 2) and 3) are also the same circle, but
2) and 3) are a different circle than 1) and 4).
Now this time's meat:
Two transitions are given. The transition from RESTing to MOVing
OUTside, i.e. EARTH-FIRE, and the transition from RESTing to MOVing
INside, i.e. AIR-WATER.
What is not clear, a priori, is how to connect elements from IN to
OUT. Is it more natural to connect AIR to EARTH or to FIRE ? Is it
more natural to connect WATER to EARTH or to FIRE ?
Let me simply look at the interfaces between IN and OUT. There are
four interfaces:
FIRE - AIR
FIRE - WATER
EARTH - AIR
EARTH - WATER
At the interface EARTH-AIR, both elements REST. Therefore there can
be no transition from IN to OUT (or the other way round) there.
There are two interfaces where one element RESTs and the other one
MOVEs: FIRE-AIR and EARTH-WATER.
Consider the latter interface and imagine a block of actual earth
connected to actual water. The earth can dissolve in the water or
the water can deposit earth (mud) at the shore.
More abstractly, EARTH that is passive rests outside, but at the
interface comes into contact with the inside world, thus starts to
move, without needing energy to do so, i.e. becomes WATER.
Similarly, AIR is active and manages to rest inside, but when it
comes into contact with the outside world, movement arises, FIRE.
At the fourth interface FIRE - WATER, it would a priori seem clear
that since both move, there can be a transition IN/OUT here. But
if one looks a bit more closely, there is also an argument against
it: If FIRE becomes WATER, then the motion remains motion, but
what happened to the energy (active got passive) ?
The transition outside from active to passive. i.e. FIRE to EARTH
is seen to be caused by the nature of the outside world, where the
normal state is rest (qualifications see introduction at my site),
so that without activity, FIRE turns into EARTH. Inside, things are
the other way round, movement is the passive state, so that without
activity, AIR turns into WATER.
Summing things up, it would appear that the more natural circle of
the elements (in their above abstract definition) is as follows:
... - FIRE - AIR - WATER - EARTH - FIRE - ...
So the transitions that happen IN or OUT do not change active to
passive or vice-versa, while the transitions between IN and OUT
preserve activity / passivity.
Any hints that might clarify or relativate the above are welcome.
Let me, though, also apply the above considerations to the signs
of the zodiac in my elementary view of the signs of the zodiac:
FIRE signs: EARTH (Aries) => FIRE (Leo) => AIR (Sagittarius)
AIR signs: FIRE (Gemini) => AIR (Libra) => WATER (Aquarius)
WATER signs: EARTH (Cancer) => WATER (Scorpio) => AIR (Pisces)
EARTH signs: FIRE (Taurus) => EARTH (Virgo) => WATER (Capricorn)
Let me pick out the Air signs and there especially Libra. One side
of Air is learning from what happens in the world, from what moves
outside, i.e. from Fire, and there especially from things that are
cyclic, from stuff that happens over and over again. That is also
the part of the world that science usually focusses on.
Air is also learning from feelings, from motion inside and from its
cycles, i.e. learning from Water.
Conversely, there is also teaching and will in Air signs. Air is
active, stabilizes some insights in the inner world. Such insights
are often abstract, general ideas, but can also represent decisions
that then lead to actions, to activity in the outside world (Fire).
And they can stabilize things inside, i.e. reduce feeling, which
can be considered rather a good thing (say, feelings of sorrow) or
rather a bad thing (e.g. happyness, love).
I hope at least some parts of this post were generally accessibile.
)o+
astynaz wrote:
: Mercury semisquare Pluto - '13
: keywords: transformation,power,intensity,nuclear activity
Let me illustrate some aspects of my elementary methods on this
example. (Side remark: Besides the T-square mentioned by Richard
Nolle, there was also a T-Square between Pluto and the nodes,
plus mean black moon Lilith, that should be mentioned.)
I associated numbers with elements, planets and aspects as follows
(for aspects it is obvious, 1-conjunction, 2-opposition, ...):
1 - Fire - Sun
2 - Air - Moon
3 - Water - Venus
4 - Earth - Mars
5 - Transformation of elements - Mercury
6 - Transformation of Air (6=1+2+3*) - Jupiter
7 - Transformation of Fire (7=4+1+2*) - Saturn
8 - Transformation of Earth (8=1+4+3*) - Uranus
9 - Transformation of Water (9=4+3+2*) - Neptune
10 - Transformation of transf. of elements - Pluto
* Based on my model of the signs of the zodiac in terms
of transitions between the elements.
Take the items of the quote above:
* Mercury - 5 - Transformation of elements
* semisquare (octile) - 8 - Uranus - Transformation of Earth
* Pluto - 10 - Transformation of transformation of elements
* 13 connects to Eris, of course, (solar vs. lunar year, 13th fairy)
The numbers 5 and 8 are also strongly connected to Venus and her
8 year cycle associated with the "5 petal rose". See e.g. the
article by Nick Kollerstrom that has been mentioned here before:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/venusrose.html
The view of 10-Pluto as a "meta-transformation" a transformation
of the laws by which things transform into each other fits very
well with nuclear power, because it makes is the philosopher's
stone in the sense that it is now actually possible to transform
the chemical elements into each other, like turn lead to gold
(although the price tag on this is still higher than to simply
dig gold out of the ground).
The numbers 8 and 9 are also associated with the nodes( because
they were the next objects after 7-Saturn before Uranus and
Neptune had been discovered) which leads also to earthquakes,
to release of energy when things get into contact with the nodes,
just like earthquakes are releases of tensions in the earth's
crust.
Richard Nolle wrote:
: [...] And it's not a lack of imagination
: on my part, not with Neptune culminating and Uranus setting in my birth
: chart.
In my view, the planets Neptune and Uranus actually do lack
imagination. Neptune rules the sea, but is not happy with it,
always tries to control things, tries to make them simpler
than they actually can be. Uranus is certainly progressive,
but his main interest is to bring inventions that already
exist to humanity, he does not make the inventions himself.
I see both in light of the emerging Age of Aquarius; they are
(like Pluto and Cheiron, etc.) different aspects of Aquarius,
who is also assiciated with Prometheus who stole the fire from
the gods, stole their inventions and imagination to bring it
to humanity in a broad way.
The above associations 8-Uranus-Transformation of Earth and
9-Neptunr-Transformation of Water, i.e. with female transitions,
indicates also the female lack of imagination (Fire, also Air).
Neptune's brother Jupiter (-6-Transformation of Fire) in myths
consistently shows more imagination than Neptune.
About the concete seismic events: Neptune causes earthquakes in
mythology, Pluto is associated with nuclear power. Without further
data I would not dismiss the hypothesis that the Arizona events
are maybe still nuclear detonations - absence of evidence is not
the same as evidence of absence - although it certainly appears
much more likely to me at the moment that the events were simply
minor earthquakes. Let me still add some fantasy: As far as I
remember, the last french nuclear tests were in order to refine
their computer simulations, so that future tests would no longer
be necessary. The USA could afford a moratorium earlier because
they had already the technology earlier. A few months ago in the
news there have been disussions about the USA use small nuclear
devices in order to destroy the nuclear capabilities of Iran and
maybe also of other small countries. It is at least imaginable
that the USA lacks knowledge about very small bombs, the size
that could be publicly acceptable to use in the view of the USA's
public. Since such very small nuclear bombs would only cause
small tremors of earth, it might be possible to veil such nuclear
tests and still conduct them despite the moratorium, in the
interest of US national security. The USA's Pluto has often stood
for doing what is not allowed if deemed necesssary and if it is
impossible to prove that there has been cheating. Of course, this
is just speculation, but speculation and imagination are part of
the world, Fire is an element. Similarly, the signs of the zodiac
are an important part of astrology, they are with their associated
mythology and imaginary images of lions, scorpions etc. in the sky
maybe most strongly associated with Fire. It is certainly viable
to focus on aspects and planets alone, and can certainly be of
great practical value to do so, but this should not lead to denying
(or at least tending to deny) the viability of other elements of
astrology. Aquarius (the USA's moon) is mostly interested in what
can be realized and proven immediately, because in a concete sense,
it is the only thing that is useful for humanity. But physical well-
being is not the only thing there is in the world. The delphic,
appollian wisdom of "know yourself", "nothing in excess" applies
here too (not only to Aquarius, of course, to all signs, including
also the opposite sign, Leo).
Just another look at the matrix...
)o+
I wrote:
: About the concete seismic events: Neptune causes earthquakes in
: mythology, Pluto is associated with nuclear power. Without further
: data I would not dismiss the hypothesis that the Arizona events
: are maybe still nuclear detonations - absence of evidence is not
: the same as evidence of absence - although it certainly appears
: much more likely to me at the moment that the events were simply
: minor earthquakes. Let me still add some fantasy: As far as I
: remember, the last french nuclear tests were in order to refine
: their computer simulations, so that future tests would no longer
: be necessary. The USA could afford a moratorium earlier because
: they had already the technology earlier. A few months ago in the
: news there have been disussions about the USA use small nuclear
: devices in order to destroy the nuclear capabilities of Iran and
: maybe also of other small countries. It is at least imaginable
: that the USA lacks knowledge about very small bombs, the size
: that could be publicly acceptable to use in the view of the USA's
: public. Since such very small nuclear bombs would only cause
: small tremors of earth, it might be possible to veil such nuclear
: tests and still conduct them despite the moratorium, in the
: interest of US national security.
At least the symbolism would be fitting: Pluto redefined to be
a "dwarf planets" and "dwarf nuclear bombs" gaining importance.
Just in case: Even though I tried to balance things a bit, it
is still obviously so that without further evidence either way
and although fundamentally the issue is undecided, it is still
a lot more probable (for all that it appears) that the seismic
events were just small earthquakes and not nuclear detonations.
I feel like I have to defend myself a bit against Canada.
Two stories from my 1.5 year stay in Montreal, CA, about 10
years ago. Nothing for the faint at heart (at least the second
one). Canada has Saturn in Scorpio, which I think showed in the
punctual quality of these events.
One morning in winter, I went to work as usual, walked to the
Metro station, when a blonde woman walked by outside, near the
entrance to the Metro. She was wearing a full body suit made
of rubber or latex or something like that. She was not as thin
as fetish girls usually are public pictures, nor was her suit
shiny, it had something white on it, maybe powder or sweat.
She just walked by rather quickly. Looked more like work.
Once, I think also in winter, on the flight from Zurich (where
I lived before and live now) to Montreal, the guy next to me
started to talk to me and asked me what I worked etc. I do not
remember how that guy looked like, was maybe between 30 and 50
years old, neither very tall nor very small, no mustache or
beard, don't remember hair color, only that he was wearing
something dark or black. He also talked about his work. He was
apparently doing some biological research about how brains work.
If I am not mistaken, with chimpanses. Had something to do with
how the brain controls arm movement. For some reason that he
did not explain (and I cannot see any scientific reason for it)
the ape would die during the experiment, within something like
24 hours. The guy then went on to explain to me how hard that
work was. Sure, I could imagine, seing the ape die is obviously
very hard. But no, that was not what he meant. He meant how hard
it was to make these observations during 24 hours without having
any break during it. Short, he was only talking about *his*
relatively minor uncomfortability.
Now, either my memory is wrong and it was a different species
of apes, but not chimpanses, or his work must have been illegal,
since experiments, certainly of that kind, are not allowed with
man's closest relatives, as far as I know.
Anyway, that weekend I saw the Bergmann movie where a blonde
knight plays chess with Death, and although he loses, he makes
a specially bad move that briefly diverts the attention of Death,
so that a few other people can escape the plague. I remembered
then that I had tried a similar move in the plane, suggesting
some alternative experiments where nobody would die. No idea if
it helped in any way.
Needless to say, I never liked it at Montreal and was very
happy to get back to Switzerland. (That kind of stuff never
happened to me when I was on holidays in the USA. :)
tJupiter moved just recently across my nNeptune and nS.Node,
and also across Canada's Saturn. And now also Mercury is
approaching these spots and (twice, because it will go
retrograde in about 2 weeks).
)o+
DJ wrote:
: I don't know about everyone, but I love this stuff. You may want to
: consider the five Chinese elements and their relation to each other.
: The five elements (water-wood-fire-earth-metal) produce each other, and
: each subjugates and controls the second in line. (1)Water produces wood
: which produces fire which degrades into earth which produces metal
: which purifies and displaces water. (2)Water controls fire which melts
: metal which plows earth which dams and channels water.
Thanks for the reply! :)
I must admit that I did so far not look a lot at the five Chinese
elements, but rather focused on the 8 hexagrams of the I Ching,
supposedly because the I Ching is older, at the root of Chinese
thinking, but maybe that was too restrictive.
The 5 elements are assigned to the points of the compass, plus the
center (China):
Wood - East
Fire - South
Metal - West
Water - North
Earth - Center
Water
|
Metal--Earth--Wood
|
Fire
In the Chinese zodiac, that is reflected in the following assignment
of elements to signs (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Zodiac):
Rat - Water - North
Ox - Water/Earth* - North/Center*
Tiger - Wood - East
Rabbit - Wood - East
Dragon - Wood/Earth* - East/Center*
Snake - Fire - South
Horse - Fire - South
Sheep - Fire/Earth* - South/Center*
Monkey - Metal - West
Rooster - Metal - West
Dog - Metal/Earth* - West/Center*
Pig - Water - North
* Quote from wikipedia: "Additionally, there is Earth, which to some governs
the signs of the Dragon, Dog, Ram, and Ox. It is the central balance of all
elements and can lend qualities to all 12 animals as well."
What I think is very interesting, is that (if using the assignment of
Earth to Ox, Dragon, Sheep and Snake) the other four elements cannot
transform directly into each other, but have to go to the center in
order to get the ability to transform. That gives Earth a very similar
role to the 5th element (Ether, Quintessence) in Western thought.
Take the following image, from the cover of a book by Nigel Pennick,
for example:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/3890600042.03._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056594020_.jpg
There are two kinds of "earth" in that image. The center one is the
astronomical/astrological symbol for the planet earth ("celtic cross");
let me label it "Center". To the right is the element Earth (triangle
that points down, with horizontal line in the middle):
Fire
|
Air--Center--Earth
|
Water
This seems to correspond to Aristotle's assignment of elements to
seasons, if seen like the angles of a birth chart:
AC - East - Air - Spring
MC - South - Fire - Summer
DC - West - Earth - Autumn
IC - North - Water - Winter
Linking that to the Chinese elements yields:
Chinese <-> Western
Wood <-> Air
Fire <-> Fire
Metal <-> Earth
Water <-> Water
Earth <-> Ether/Center
What is interesting is that one of the 8 hexagrams of the I Ching
symbolizes both wood and wind, which rings with "Wood <-> Air".
According to an interesting article at the Biblioteca Arcana, "The
Pythagorean Pentacle", by "Apollonios Sophistes",
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PP/index.html,
at least during the Renaissance, it was more common to associate
elements and directions, as follows:
Fire - East
Air - South
Water - West
Earth - North
(which, if equating spring with east etc. yields essentially my
favorite cycle, that I found independently). Combining that again
with the Chinese cross of directions, this yields:
Chinese <-> Western
Wood <-> Fire
Fire <-> Air
Metal <-> Water
Water <-> Earth
Earth <-> Ether/Center
Which appears to fit clearly less well than the one before.
The 8 hexagrams of the I Ching are also commonly arranged in a
circle and associated with seasons/directions, in fact there are
even two traditional ways of doing this, an "inner" and an "outer"
cycle). All my attempts to match these to Western cylcles of the
elements have failed so far, maybe I can present another time in
which interesting ways my attempts failed. Maybe also the two
circles of the 5 Chinese elements that you mentioned above, can
help there to understand Chinese thinking. In the article at the
Bibliotheca Arcana, there appear also to be similar different
cycles around the pentacle.
: The other systems which come to mind are the eightfold path of
: Buddhism, which made little sense to me as a geometric structure until
: I saw it drawn as eight around a CENTER, making it resemble the
: nine-star ki diagram of Japan. Both of these can be represented by nine
: coins, three in the center row, two above and below, and one on top and
: bottom, forming a diamond. This diamond can be superimposed over the
: standard horoscopic chart and the angles of the chart will bisect the
: coins at the four points of the diamond while the cusps of the houses
: will run between the coins around the perimeter.
Buddhism is also something of which I know relatively little. That
with the diamond is very interesting. What I knew (and mentioned
once before), is that in ancient China, fields were organized into
fields of 3 x 3 square fields (a bit like tic-tac-toe). The 8 fields
around the central field were assigned to one of 8 families each.
The central field contained the well and was common property.
This reflects, in my view, in the I Ching (8 x 8 hexagrams) and the
Tao Te Ching (9 x 9 short texts of wisdom about the Tao).
A quote from a book about quantum field theory (A. Zee, "Quantum Field
Theory in a Nutshell"): "Murray Gell-Mann used to talk about the eightfold
way to wisdom and salvation in Buddhism (M. Gell-Mann and Y. Ne'eman,
_The Eightfold Way_). Readers familiar with contemporary Chinese
literature would know that the celestial dragon has eight parts."
Would seem thus to relate also to the lunar nodes (celestial dragon).
About the diamond superimposed over the zodiac: It appears that house
systems with 8 houses predate systems with 12 houses (which is seems
at least to be due to Venus' 8 year cycle; by Patrice Guinard):
http://cura.free.fr/10domi1e.html
http://cura.free.fr/11domi2e.html
)o+
--
PS: A found a book by Nigel Pennick to be quite an interesting source
regarding such systems in different cultures. The book was originally
published (as far as I can see) in 1988 under the title "Games of the
Gods: Origin of Board Games in Magic and Divination" and again in 1992
as "Secret Games of the Gods: Ancient Ritual Systems in Board Games".
I discovered it in a German translation, which had maybe a somewhat
more fitting title "Ursprünge der Weissagung. Von Orakel, heiligen
Zahlen und magischen Quadraten" ("Origins of Divination (literally
translated "wise-saying"). Of Oracles, holy Numbers and magic Squares)".
There is more focus on the different divinatory systems and "magical"
arrangements than on board games. I remember a 9x9 matrix from India,
where the center 3x3 submatrix was supposed to be more divine than
the rest outside, but there were more details on the matrix, as far
as I remember. But there is also interesting stuff about common board
games in the West.
DJ wrote:
: You might like to check out "dozenal" in Google as well--lots about
: base twelve patterns and systems of counting, all of them superior to
: base ten and metrics (the metric system SUCKS!)
That has been puzzling me a lot this week (metric vs. non-metric
systems; decimal vs. dozenal counting (or even other bases)).
There are several abstract things that I like about the metric
system, like that you uniformly get from one unit to another
by dividing/multiplying with a power of the same base (ten in
the metric system). I also like that the way the liter and the
kilogram are derived from the meter (resp. originally way),
namely by taking a cube with 1/10 of a meter sides (one liter)
and filling it with water. The weight of the water in the cube
is one kilogram.
Now, in principle, these ideas of uniformity are not bound to
the base ten. From an abstract point of view, you could do it
just as well with a base 12. Would even look the same in the
dozenal system of counting, where twelve is written as 10.
But some concrete consequences are drastically different. Take
the same length of the meter and define a dozenal liter: The
cube would be smaller, would countain 1.2^3 times less water,
i.e. have 1.728 times less volume and weight. Thus one dozemal
liter or kg would be 0.58 decimal liters or kg. Thus likely in
that world, milk would be sold in units of 2 dozemal liters,
i.e, 1.16 decimal liters. The common packaging for a liter of
milk in Switzerland looks a bit like a brick, the shortest side
of the "brick" being just narrow enough that you can easily
grab and pour it. In my feeling, that kind of packaging would
look less beautiful if you increased the volume to 1.16 decimal
liters, no matter which side(s) of the "brick" you would make
a bit longer. Also, more milk in the package would lead to
milk a bit more likely getting sour before it is used up.
Or take different paper formats. I like both the metric A4
sheets and the US letter formats. They are beautiful in quite
different ways. The A4 format is again derived from the meter.
A0 is a rectangle with an area of 1 square meters and with
a ratio between the sides of the square root of 2. This has
the nice property that if you fold (or cut) and A0 sheet at
the middle, you get two A1 sheets (areas of 0.5 square meters
each, and same ratio between sides). Then you do the same to
get to A2, A3 and finally to A4 (and A5, A6 which are used
for envelopes into which you can put folded A4 sheets). But
the US letter format has a nice harmony to itself, too.
I could not say exactly what, but it's there.
About the advantages of 10 and 12. 10 can be divided by 5 and
by 2; 12 can be divided by 2,3,4 and 6. These restrictions and
possibilities are architectural. If it is more difficult to
divide by 3 than to divide by 5, people will more likely design
furniture (say) that is based on such ratios. One possible
advantage of a base ten is maybe that people would then more
likely chose to make something 1 x 0.6 m (i.e. 3/5 of a m). Now,
0.6 is pretty 0.618..., which is the golden ratio. Also 1.6 is
close to 1.618 (again the golden ratio).
I find it very difficult to decide between such systems that have
all grown out of at least thousands of years of experience. Is it
really an advantage to have a single system of units? Just one
general consequence: If people in China use the same units as in
the USA, it is easier to produce screws, etc. for the USA in China.
Is cheaper screws, etc. really worth the loss of cultural diversity
in the world ?
In greek mythology, architecture is associated with Athena (and
thus astrologically usually with Virgo), and with Prometheus (thus
Aquarius). I also see some Jupiter there (especially Sagittarius)
and last, but not least, Leo.
The current waves of globalization started in the mid 1990's with
Uranus and Neptune in Aquarius and with Pluto in Sagittarius. It
is not unlikely that some of the effects of these passages with be
at least partially reversed in the coming years or at least not taken
that seriously and absolutely any more.
My general impression is that the question of which system of units
and numbers is better, is that ultimately this is a question that
is too difficult to judge for a single individual. The consequences
are so broad and so detailed and require such an insight into the
world and its inner workings that it seems impossible to judge the
matter rationally, i.e. with reason, Air. A gut feeling (Water) is
already a better judge, I think, although again any individual will
be biased to like rather the system he/she grew up in.
I have never felt the metric system to be inadequate, likely because
I grew up with it. I had more problems when in Canada for 1.5 years
with, say, 5/8" and 9/16" (was often not immediately obvious to me,
which is more, while with 0.625cm and 0.5625cm it is obvious).
One thing that I do not understand is the degrees F system. The
Celsius system which has 0 at the freezing point of water seems
a lot more intuitive and useful to me. But maybe I am just missing
something deeper, more mysterious about the Fahrenheit system.
Interesting also that when it comes to measuring time, the 12/24h
system and the second have made it almost uniformly and time zones
are also locked into discrete units of hours (some half hours).
What annoyed me often when in Canada, was in the supermarket there
were often people who packed the things that I bought into bags,
also using more bags that I would use, which made it more difficult
for me to carry them around, especially on frozen ground. But that
was not my main concern. I do not like the idea of having servants
who fill the bags for me. I like to do that myself, it is part of
my freedom and is especially Swiss, where (at least until the 1990s)
a lot of emphasis was placed on keeping roles exchangable, on not
having different classes of people. Ideally, the person shopping for
groceries could the next day be selling a holiday trip to Florida to
the woman at the cash register in the grocery store. When I came back
to Switzerland in 1997, I read a report in my local newspaper of a
woman from the USA who had spent some time in Switzerland. What she
did, was compain exactly the other way round: She considered it lack
of service and an unnecessary complication of her life that she had
to pack her stuff into bags herself in grocery stores...
Isn't relativity beautiful - no wonder Venus is exalted in Pisces.
)o+
chompergirl wrote:
: My mom and bro are a little depressed that we can't find it. I'm not
: sure it will show up, frankly. My Dad was not the most organized -
: although he certainly held on to things.
In my experience, the second child (the 4th member of the
family) is the one who is different enough from the others,
but still somewhat bound to their fate, so that he/she can
resolve the issue that neither the parents nor the older
child can. Assuming you are two children (your brother and
you), that would be the younger one of you two. Symbolically
this has to do with the number pi, for example, which is
3.1415..., so 3 plus 1/7 roughly. The theme appears also in
fairy tales, a bit more abstractly, there it can be a king
with two fair sons that are like him and fail and a youngest,
3rd son (4th of that abstract "family" in the tale), that
appears to be less gifted than the others, but is sufficiently
different to succeed in resolving the issue. That does not
necessarily mean finding the deed, it could also mean to
settle things in a different way.
I liked the two dreams you told recently in the very long
"Saturn tricked me" thread. Besides many other things, also
contained a very nice symmetry with the entry of several
planets into Scorpio recently (sun, moon briefly, Mars, Venus),
with, if I remember correctly, at least some of them between
the first and the second dream. The transition from Libra to
Scorpio is from Air to Water. Clothes have to do with culture
and are in air, but in the water they are awkward, pull you
down make it difficult to move. In sumerian mythology, Inanna
had to go through 7 gates and at each one she had to remove
more clothes and jewellery.
Good luck in any case!
)o+
--
PS: That with "the 4th is different" also shows in aspects.
Trines are pleasant and harmonic, but also fated, passive,
keep you bound. Squares are harder, less pleasant, but allow
to break out of cycles, while still being related to them.
I relate 3 and 4 (among other things) to Venus and Mars.
doovinator wrote:
: Yes, but mercury goes retro more often than any other planet and thus
: is most noticeable in general, no? (certainly to geminis like me!). I
: like the emphasis on the period before the retrograde rather than only
: the retro itself; for a long time I've felt the noticeable effects of
: retro planets begin a week or so before and diminish greatly by the
: last week.
Interestingly, Mercury is retrograde pretty precisely
1/5 of the time, relating thus also the time when it
is direct to the 4 "regular" elements Fire, Air, Water
and Earth, but the retrograde phase to the 5th element.
The platonic solid associated with the fifth element
is the dodecahedron, composed of 12 pentagrams, thus
linking 5 and 12, which leads also to the quincunx,
which is 5/12 of the circle.
Difficult to plan things with Mercury retrograde. Not
that I feel that much of a difference, with a natal
retrograde Mercury. Yesterday I wanted to start doing
some illustrations for my web site exactphilosophy.net,
but it just did not work, then I started to do some
things with the text, not the main text, just the leads
that follow each section of main text. I mainly started
to add more quotes from Aristotle's text where he defines
the four elements (On Generation and Corruption, 350 BC).
Also thought about citing more from Kant about space and
time, but although some related cosmetic changes made
things a bit more streamlined, essentially the changes
made things less good. At some point I misread one part
of Aristotle, thinking that I had misread it the previous
time, thinking that he indeed associated hot-cold with
light-heavy and active-passive, while in reality, things
turned out to be as follows:
He identifies hot-cold with active and dry-wet with
susceptible, which he appears to consider the opposite
of active, i.e. passive. He considers light-heavy to
be neither hot-cold nor dry-wet, contrary to all other
opposites that he considers in the text.
That lead me indirectly (pun!) to the idea that maybe
one could consider light-heavy a separate, independent
opposite, thus leading to 2 x 2 x 2 "elements" composed
of either one of light-heavy, hot-cold, dry-wet. Since
that gives 8 elements, maybe they correlate to the 8
trigrams of the I Ching, that I discuss in the same
section.
Anyway, early this afternoon, I threw away all changes,
because I did not like it overall, even though some
stuff was certainly better in the new version. Then like
a wonder, around the time of full moon, things started
to flow really easily and within a fraction of the time
that I had invested previously (maybe 1/5 ?), I got a new,
beautiful version, without any quotes, but telling things
in my words, just mentioning that the original texts by
Kant, Aristotle and others are freely available online.
So, I got some beautiful new stuff, including a quite
unexpected new lead, based on a misunderstanding.
Also fitting with Mercury retrograde, which I also
associate with doing things rather privately, secretly
until its done (like Hermes stealing Apollon's cattle
in the Homeric Hymns, but walking backwards or having
the cattle walk backwards or something like that), you
cannot see the results, yet, on my site -- that will
have to wait until after New Year.
Just noticed that there was a seminar about the elements
(mostly from a Jungian, psychological perspective, I guess)
at CPA London today. Seems to have been a good day for
considering elements, wonder why exactly...
Anyway...
)o+
I wrote:
: That lead me indirectly (pun!) to the idea that maybe
: one could consider light-heavy a separate, independent
: opposite, thus leading to 2 x 2 x 2 "elements" composed
: of either one of light-heavy, hot-cold, dry-wet. Since
: that gives 8 elements, maybe they correlate to the 8
: trigrams of the I Ching, that I discuss in the same
: section.
For example, like that:
Here is a combination of the tables from my site (left is up
in usual notation for lines of trigrams above):
||| heaven (strong, creative, father) Air Male Rests
||: wind/wood (penetrating, gentle, 1st daugther) Air Female Moves
|:: mountain (resting, keeping still, 3rd son) Earth Male Rests
::: earth (devoted/yielding, receptive, mother) Earth Female Moves
|:| fire (light-giving, clinging, 2nd daugther) Fire Female Rests
::| thunder (inciting movement, arousing, 1st son) Fire Male Moves
:|| lake (joyful, joyous, 3rd daugther) Water Female Rests
:|: water (dangerous, abysmal, 2nd son) Water Male Moves
How about trying to link in each elemental pair above one with light and
the other one with heavy ?
In two cases, it seems clear, since 'heaven' and 'earth', father and
mother, are on opposite sides of a cube (see www.jiying.co.uk for an
illustration of the cube), 'heaven' is ||| and 'earth' is :::.
So, 'heaven' would be lighter than wind/wood, which is not inconsistent,
at least in the case of wood. And 'earth' would be lighter than 'mountain',
fitting with hills being higher than the yielding 'earth'. In both cases,
thus a yang line | indicated light and a yin line : indicated heavy.
Applying this principle to the other two pairs, 'fire' would be light and
'thunder' would be heavy, consistent with the fact that the flame of a
fire usually goes up, while thunder is at least perceived to usually come
down from the sky. And 'water', the dangerous abysmal fast flowing river,
goes down, is heavy, while the 'lake' (also seen as mist), is ligher in the
sense that it does not visibly flow down and allows water from its surface
to evaporate.
The same in form of a table:
||| heaven Air Light
||: wind/wood Air Heavy
|:: mountain Earth Light
::: earth Earth Heavy
|:| fire Fire Light
::| thunder Fire Heavy
:|| lake Water Light
:|: water Water Heavy
Not a bad fit, but like usually with the I Ching, it is not perfect.
For example, the trigram 'thunder' is also associated with spring,
with breaking up earth from below (like plants grow out of the ground
in spring), which would be contrary to considering 'thunder' heavy.
Seems like the I Ching is rather crafted to fit many things well, but
none fully, maybe out of the common feeling in the Far East that only
gods can make perfect things, so that humans always put in just a few
inconsistencies or 'errors', just in case.
Another example for that:
In each pair, two lines are the same. The original meaning of yin/yang
was the two sides of a hill, the side in the shadow is more humid and
colder, so two shared yang lines (as in the air pair above), would mean
dry and hot, i.e. Fire in Aristotle's definition of the elements. Only
if I associate one yang line with wet and the other with hot, I get a
a correspondence to the elements as defined by Aristotle:
line1 line2 line3 element
||| heaven wet* hot* light light air
||: wind/wood wet* hot* heavy heavy air
|:: mountain light dry* cold* light earth
::: earth heavy dry* cold* heavy earth
|:| fire light dry hot light fire
::| thunder heavy dry hot heavy fire
:|| lake cold wet light light water
:|: water cold wet heavy heavy water
* Maybe other way round (since two of the same it is difficult to tell
which line stands for dry/wet and which one for hot/cold).
)o+
I wrote (a bit more than a week ago):
: doovinator wrote:
: : Yes, but mercury goes retro more often than any other planet and thus
: : is most noticeable in general, no? (certainly to geminis like me!). I
: : like the emphasis on the period before the retrograde rather than only
: : the retro itself; for a long time I've felt the noticeable effects of
: : retro planets begin a week or so before and diminish greatly by the
: : last week.
:
: Interestingly, Mercury is retrograde pretty precisely
: 1/5 of the time, relating thus also the time when it
: is direct to the 4 "regular" elements Fire, Air, Water
: and Earth, but the retrograde phase to the 5th element.
:
: The platonic solid associated with the fifth element
: is the dodecahedron, composed of 12 pentagrams, thus
: linking 5 and 12, which leads also to the quincunx,
: which is 5/12 of the circle.
:
: Difficult to plan things with Mercury retrograde. Not
: that I feel that much of a difference, with a natal
: retrograde Mercury. Yesterday I wanted to start doing
: some illustrations for my web site exactphilosophy.net,
: but it just did not work, then I started to do some
: things with the text, not the main text, just the leads
: that follow each section of main text. I mainly started
: to add more quotes from Aristotle's text where he defines
: the four elements (On Generation and Corruption, 350 BC).
: Also thought about citing more from Kant about space and
: time, but although some related cosmetic changes made
: things a bit more streamlined, essentially the changes
: made things less good. At some point I misread one part
: of Aristotle, thinking that I had misread it the previous
: time, thinking that he indeed associated hot-cold with
: light-heavy and active-passive, while in reality, things
: turned out to be as follows:
:
: He identifies hot-cold with active and dry-wet with
: susceptible, which he appears to consider the opposite
: of active, i.e. passive. He considers light-heavy to
: be neither hot-cold nor dry-wet, contrary to all other
: opposites that he considers in the text.
:
: That lead me indirectly (pun!) to the idea that maybe
: one could consider light-heavy a separate, independent
: opposite, thus leading to 2 x 2 x 2 "elements" composed
: of either one of light-heavy, hot-cold, dry-wet. Since
: that gives 8 elements, maybe they correlate to the 8
: trigrams of the I Ching, that I discuss in the same
: section.
:
: Anyway, early this afternoon, I threw away all changes,
: because I did not like it overall, even though some
: stuff was certainly better in the new version. Then like
: a wonder, around the time of full moon, things started
: to flow really easily and within a fraction of the time
: that I had invested previously (maybe 1/5 ?), I got a new,
: beautiful version, without any quotes, but telling things
: in my words, just mentioning that the original texts by
: Kant, Aristotle and others are freely available online.
Turned out differently again. Shortly afterwards, I went
back to the current version (again) and then sort of merged
both versions, in several iterations (moon in Gemini, then
Cancer, and Leo to wrap it up; reminds also, besides the
obvious retrograde Mercury, of Eris/Discordianism and
Hegel, thesis and antithesis, then synthesis).
Kant writes in the introduction of "The Critique of Pure
Reason" (translation by J. Meiklejohn of 1855):
| We come now to metaphysics, a purely speculative science, which
| occupies a completely isolated position and is entirely independent of
| the teachings of experience. It deals with mere conceptions- not, like
| mathematics, with conceptions applied to intuition- and in it,
| reason is the pupil of itself alone. It is the oldest of the sciences,
| and would still survive, even if all the rest were swallowed up in the
| abyss of an all-destroying barbarism. But it has not yet had the
| good fortune to attain to the sure scientific method. This will be
| apparent; if we apply the tests which we proposed at the outset. We
| find that reason perpetually comes to a stand, when it attempts to
| gain a priori the perception even of those laws which the most
| common experience confirms. We find it compelled to retrace its
| steps in innumerable instances, and to abandon the path on which it
| had entered, because this does not lead to the desired result.
With a quite slow Mercury, slightly retrograde, I guess
I am naturally attracted to that kind of stuff. It is also
difficult to communicate these things, because if people
rush through a text about these kinds of things, with a
typical 21st century fast forward Uranian/Aquarian mind,
there is no chance that they will see anything...
Might thus be worth to try maybe within the next few days,
when Mercury will station (sometime Fri 17 Nov)...
: So, I got some beautiful new stuff, including a quite
: unexpected new lead, based on a misunderstanding.
:
: Also fitting with Mercury retrograde, which I also
: associate with doing things rather privately, secretly
: until its done (like Hermes stealing Apollon's cattle
: in the Homeric Hymns, but walking backwards or having
: the cattle walk backwards or something like that), you
: cannot see the results, yet, on my site -- that will
: have to wait until after New Year.
I put up a preview on my site.
Current site: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Preview site: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/preview/
The essential differences (and the essential contents,
so far) are in the section "elementary philosophy".
There, the leads of "space and time" have changed, and
"greek philosophy" and "i ching" have merged into
"ancient philosophy" to make room for "interfaces",
where I intend to add something between x-mas and new
year (plus illustrations for "space and time" and for
"metamorphosis, space already reserved). There are
also a few new links (3) in the preview version.
I look at my site like at a garden (maybe a japanese
zen garden). I do not expect it to change totally in a
year, just to grow a few new things here and there and
I do a little bit of trimming or rearranging here and
there. I like to see it as a japanese zen garden,
like in kyoto...
: Just noticed that there was a seminar about the elements
: (mostly from a Jungian, psychological perspective, I guess)
: at CPA London today. Seems to have been a good day for
: considering elements, wonder why exactly...
:
: Anyway...
:
: )o+
)o+ too
Delphi 2.01 astrology program and current Palm OS devices
Hi everybody,
This is regarding the astrology program "Delphi" for PalmOS
handhelds that I wrote a few years ago:
It appears that on the most recent PalmOS handhelds, Delphi
does not draw glyphs for planets and star signs on the chart
wheel (but does display planet glyphs and positions on the
right of the chart). This apparently affects devices with
PalmOS 5.4.9, like the Treo 700p, Palm TX, and Zire Z22.
This changed behaviour seems to be a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9 and
the person who reported the bug to me apparently intends to
report the bug to Palm, so that maybe in some future version
the behaviour will be correct again.
The same person also told me that Delphi actually works on
Pocket PCs (Windows), if one uses the "styletap platform",
a commercial application (currently around 50 US$) that
emulates the earlier PalmOS 5.2.
Of course, I cannot guarantee that the above information is
100% correct, and, as always, I recommend to try before you buy!
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
)o+
Anybody wants to host Delphi / astrolib for Palm OS ?
For personal reasons, I will no longer be able to host the
astrology application Delphi for PalmOS on my web site, nor
will I be able to host the source code for the astronomical
library astrolib for PalmOS there; termination by the end
of November (of this year, 2006).
If anybody is interested to host these files, please feel
free to do so. Here are the binaries and the essential
information about what they are etc.:
1) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi201.zip
- Contains the most current version of Delphi (2.01) for
PalmOS handhelds; supports Palm OS version 3.5 and later.
- Contains a HTML (web) documentation with lots of screen
shots, and the binaries delphi.prc, astrolib.prc and
mathlib.prc (a mathematical library not written by me,
but required to run Delphi).
- Originally released in May 2002 (Saturn-Pluto opp.)
- For all I know still works on all devices except likely
the most recent ones (PalmOS 5.4.9 and maybe slightly
older versions), namely Palm TX, Zire Z22 and Treo 700p.
This is caused by a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9, more precisely
in the emulation of the previous PalmOS <5 architecture.
- Reportedly works on Windows CE Pocket PC handhelds with
the ca. US$ 50 commercial PalmOS 5.2 emulator called
"Styletap platform" (www.styletap.com).
I cannot confirm this from direct experience, though
(I have not tried, nor do I intend to buy a Pocket PC).
- Delphi 2.01 is currently downloaded between 5 and 10 times
a day from my web site.
- Many people downloading come from freewarepalm.com, namely
from this URL (which also features a description of Delphi
and some user feedback):
http://www.freewarepalm.com/astrology/delphi.shtml
- Also people often come from the following french web page:
http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/palm.htm
- Please note that I no longer own a PalmOS device, nor a
development environment for PalmOS, nor do I have the
source code for Delphi any more (gone since a few years).
- Since the 68k platform that Delphi was written for, does
not exist natively since PalmOS 5 any more, and is since
then emulated, Delphi should (except for bugs, like the
one mentioned above, in the emulation) continue to work
for possibly a long time into the future.
- Many people like Delphi.
2) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi200.zip
- Same as above, except that it is an older version of Delphi
(2.00), with identical features, except that it runs on
earlier PalmOS versions, namely 2.0 to 4.x.
- Probably hardly needed by anybody at this time (people who
have such old devices likely already have Delphi, if they
dig that kind of applications).
3) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/astrolib103.zip
- Source code for astrolib 1.03, an open source library that
calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
order of an arc second and calculates time zones based on
unix time zone data, even back to historical dates.
- Contains the C source code, but not a fully buildable
project (used to be CodeWarrior for PalmOS on Mac OS <X).
- Is referenced by the following link:
http://www.palmopensource.com/index.php?category=22
- As far as I know (and I have NOT checked recently), that
unix time zone data is the only source for fully free time
zone calculations worth mentioning.
- The calculations of planetary positions are outdated for
most purposes; today I would use Swiss Ephemeris.
- astrolib is distributed under the LGPL, the Lesser GNU
Public License.
Please note that my web page about Delphi/astrolib,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
will also be gone by the end of November.
I enjoyed writing these programs and providing them to
others and wish everybody good luck - with Delphi/astrolib
and with everything else.
--
2 steps forward, two steps back, opposites ...
In article <1163794093.733963.10070@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
"Apollia" <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >Anybody wants to host Delphi / astrolib for Palm OS ?
>
> Maybe...
>
> >For personal reasons, I will no longer be able to host the
> >astrology application Delphi for PalmOS on my web site, nor
> >will I be able to host the source code for the astronomical
> >library astrolib for PalmOS there; termination by the end
> >of November (of this year, 2006).
>
> May I be nosy and ask why? :-)
>
> >If anybody is interested to host these files, please feel
> >free to do so. Here are the binaries and the essential
> >information about what they are etc.:
> >
> >1) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi201.zip
> >
> >- Contains the most current version of Delphi (2.01) for
> > PalmOS handhelds; supports Palm OS version 3.5 and later.
> >- Contains a HTML (web) documentation with lots of screen
> > shots, and the binaries delphi.prc, astrolib.prc and
> > mathlib.prc (a mathematical library not written by me,
> > but required to run Delphi).
>
> With that mathlib.prc, are there any copyright issues to
> worry about?
>
> >- Originally released in May 2002 (Saturn-Pluto opp.)
> >- For all I know still works on all devices except likely
> > the most recent ones (PalmOS 5.4.9 and maybe slightly
> > older versions), namely Palm TX, Zire Z22 and Treo 700p.
> > This is caused by a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9, more precisely
> > in the emulation of the previous PalmOS <5 architecture.
> >- Reportedly works on Windows CE Pocket PC handhelds with
> > the ca. US$ 50 commercial PalmOS 5.2 emulator called
> > "Styletap platform" (www.styletap.com).
> > I cannot confirm this from direct experience, though
> > (I have not tried, nor do I intend to buy a Pocket PC).
> >- Delphi 2.01 is currently downloaded between 5 and 10 times
> > a day from my web site.
> >- Many people downloading come from freewarepalm.com, namely
> > from this URL (which also features a description of Delphi
> > and some user feedback):
> > http://www.freewarepalm.com/astrology/delphi.shtml
> >- Also people often come from the following french web page:
> > http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/palm.htm
> >- Please note that I no longer own a PalmOS device, nor a
> > development environment for PalmOS, nor do I have the
> > source code for Delphi any more (gone since a few years).
>
> Aww, that's too bad.
>
> >- Since the 68k platform that Delphi was written for, does
> > not exist natively since PalmOS 5 any more, and is since
> > then emulated, Delphi should (except for bugs, like the
> > one mentioned above, in the emulation) continue to work
> > for possibly a long time into the future.
> >- Many people like Delphi.
> >
> >2) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi200.zip
> >
> >- Same as above, except that it is an older version of Delphi
> > (2.00), with identical features, except that it runs on
> > earlier PalmOS versions, namely 2.0 to 4.x.
> >- Probably hardly needed by anybody at this time (people who
> > have such old devices likely already have Delphi, if they
> > dig that kind of applications).
> >
> >3) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/astrolib103.zip
> >
> >- Source code for astrolib 1.03, an open source library that
> > calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
> > order of an arc second and calculates time zones based on
> > unix time zone data, even back to historical dates.
> >- Contains the C source code, but not a fully buildable
> > project (used to be CodeWarrior for PalmOS on Mac OS <X).
> >- Is referenced by the following link:
> > http://www.palmopensource.com/index.php?category=22
> >- As far as I know (and I have NOT checked recently), that
> > unix time zone data is the only source for fully free time
> > zone calculations worth mentioning.
> >- The calculations of planetary positions are outdated for
> > most purposes; today I would use Swiss Ephemeris.
> >- astrolib is distributed under the LGPL, the Lesser GNU
> > Public License.
> >
> >Please note that my web page about Delphi/astrolib,
> >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
> >will also be gone by the end of November.
> >
> >I enjoyed writing these programs and providing them to
> >others and wish everybody good luck - with Delphi/astrolib
> >and with everything else.
> >
> >--
> >2 steps forward, two steps back, opposites ...
>
> Well... as long as you don't mind, and there's no problem
> with copyright issues, etc., I'm quite willing to host all
> that on my site.
>
> I have tons of bandwidth and file space which is barely
> being used, and hardly any real content on my site so far,
> so, this would definitely help fill the void, I think.
>
> Seems like a very cool program, wish I could try it out.
> (I have nothing capable of using the PalmOS).
>
>
> If I do add it, it will probably go somewhere in the
> Astrology section of my site:
> http://astroblahhh.com/astrology.shtml
>
> How should I credit you? And, would you like a link back
> to your site? And, should I also state that anyone else
> is free to host those files?
>
> Would you mind if I copied and hosted this very
> informative page?
>
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
>
> Best wishes,
>
> ----
>
> Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
Just to be clear, here are the hard parts of the offer:
- Offer one or all of the files mentioned, i.e.
delphi201.zip, delphi200.zip, astrolib103.zip,
"as is", i.e. as byte-by-byte exact copies.
- Do not offer the PalmOS binaries written by me
that they contain (i.e. delphi.prc, astrolib.prc)
in a any different format for download.
- Offer them for download for free.
Regarding the rest, you are free.
That includes any kind of "decorations" that you might
offer on your web site. For example, you may use the
HTML documentation of Delphi online on your web site,
you may add additional information to it, if you feel
like it. You may also use the current delphi.html or
parts of it.
MathLib is open source software, under the LGPL, like
astrolib:
http://www.radiks.net/~rhuebner/mathlib.html
Feel free to add a message regarding the origin of
MathLib, for example in the way that the author
proposes in the user manual of MathLib (follow link
at the page indicated above).
If you download odyssey.zip from my web page (from
the Archive section, 30MB), unzip it and open the
folder Delphi, you will find more material about
Delphi, like the web site for it, as it was several
years ago. You may also freely use that material
regarding Delphi/astrolib, except the binaries of
previous distributions there (*.zip, *.sit).
Regarding a copyright message, for me it would be
fine if you labeled it something like "Delphi by
Delphi Twentine" or something like that, but that
is no hard condition on my side.
You can try Delphi on any Windows 2000 or XP PC,
if you first register as a developer at:
https://www.developerpavilion.com/palmos/page.asp?page_id=170&target=page.asp&page_id=152&msg=need_to_login
Then log on, navigate to "PalmOS Developer Tools",
there to "Simulator" and download the "Palm OS
Garnet 5.4 Simulator". Unzip the downloaded file,
open the *.exe it contains, select one of the
included ROM files (better not the japanese one),
then drag the 3 files delphi.prc, astrolib.prc
and mathlib.prc onto the simulator window, so
that a progress bar briefly appears. Then start
using Delphi (refer to the detailed graphical
manual that comes with Delphi).
Please note, that my main purpose is to detach from
it and that I will do that in any case.
Good luck in any case!
)o+
--
PS: Apollia hosting Delphi (Apollon's oracle site)
might be considered by many visitors a natural fit :)
In article <hermes-646542.00090618112006@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <1163794093.733963.10070@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Apollia" <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Hermes wrote:
> > >Anybody wants to host Delphi / astrolib for Palm OS ?
> >
> > Maybe...
> >
> > >For personal reasons, I will no longer be able to host the
> > >astrology application Delphi for PalmOS on my web site, nor
> > >will I be able to host the source code for the astronomical
> > >library astrolib for PalmOS there; termination by the end
> > >of November (of this year, 2006).
> >
> > May I be nosy and ask why? :-)
> >
> > >If anybody is interested to host these files, please feel
> > >free to do so. Here are the binaries and the essential
> > >information about what they are etc.:
> > >
> > >1) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi201.zip
> > >
> > >- Contains the most current version of Delphi (2.01) for
> > > PalmOS handhelds; supports Palm OS version 3.5 and later.
> > >- Contains a HTML (web) documentation with lots of screen
> > > shots, and the binaries delphi.prc, astrolib.prc and
> > > mathlib.prc (a mathematical library not written by me,
> > > but required to run Delphi).
> >
> > With that mathlib.prc, are there any copyright issues to
> > worry about?
> >
> > >- Originally released in May 2002 (Saturn-Pluto opp.)
> > >- For all I know still works on all devices except likely
> > > the most recent ones (PalmOS 5.4.9 and maybe slightly
> > > older versions), namely Palm TX, Zire Z22 and Treo 700p.
> > > This is caused by a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9, more precisely
> > > in the emulation of the previous PalmOS <5 architecture.
> > >- Reportedly works on Windows CE Pocket PC handhelds with
> > > the ca. US$ 50 commercial PalmOS 5.2 emulator called
> > > "Styletap platform" (www.styletap.com).
> > > I cannot confirm this from direct experience, though
> > > (I have not tried, nor do I intend to buy a Pocket PC).
> > >- Delphi 2.01 is currently downloaded between 5 and 10 times
> > > a day from my web site.
> > >- Many people downloading come from freewarepalm.com, namely
> > > from this URL (which also features a description of Delphi
> > > and some user feedback):
> > > http://www.freewarepalm.com/astrology/delphi.shtml
> > >- Also people often come from the following french web page:
> > > http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/palm.htm
> > >- Please note that I no longer own a PalmOS device, nor a
> > > development environment for PalmOS, nor do I have the
> > > source code for Delphi any more (gone since a few years).
> >
> > Aww, that's too bad.
> >
> > >- Since the 68k platform that Delphi was written for, does
> > > not exist natively since PalmOS 5 any more, and is since
> > > then emulated, Delphi should (except for bugs, like the
> > > one mentioned above, in the emulation) continue to work
> > > for possibly a long time into the future.
> > >- Many people like Delphi.
> > >
> > >2) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi200.zip
> > >
> > >- Same as above, except that it is an older version of Delphi
> > > (2.00), with identical features, except that it runs on
> > > earlier PalmOS versions, namely 2.0 to 4.x.
> > >- Probably hardly needed by anybody at this time (people who
> > > have such old devices likely already have Delphi, if they
> > > dig that kind of applications).
> > >
> > >3) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/astrolib103.zip
> > >
> > >- Source code for astrolib 1.03, an open source library that
> > > calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
> > > order of an arc second and calculates time zones based on
> > > unix time zone data, even back to historical dates.
> > >- Contains the C source code, but not a fully buildable
> > > project (used to be CodeWarrior for PalmOS on Mac OS <X).
> > >- Is referenced by the following link:
> > > http://www.palmopensource.com/index.php?category=22
> > >- As far as I know (and I have NOT checked recently), that
> > > unix time zone data is the only source for fully free time
> > > zone calculations worth mentioning.
> > >- The calculations of planetary positions are outdated for
> > > most purposes; today I would use Swiss Ephemeris.
> > >- astrolib is distributed under the LGPL, the Lesser GNU
> > > Public License.
> > >
> > >Please note that my web page about Delphi/astrolib,
> > >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
> > >will also be gone by the end of November.
> > >
> > >I enjoyed writing these programs and providing them to
> > >others and wish everybody good luck - with Delphi/astrolib
> > >and with everything else.
> > >
> > >--
> > >2 steps forward, two steps back, opposites ...
> >
> > Well... as long as you don't mind, and there's no problem
> > with copyright issues, etc., I'm quite willing to host all
> > that on my site.
> >
> > I have tons of bandwidth and file space which is barely
> > being used, and hardly any real content on my site so far,
> > so, this would definitely help fill the void, I think.
> >
> > Seems like a very cool program, wish I could try it out.
> > (I have nothing capable of using the PalmOS).
> >
> >
> > If I do add it, it will probably go somewhere in the
> > Astrology section of my site:
> > http://astroblahhh.com/astrology.shtml
> >
> > How should I credit you? And, would you like a link back
> > to your site? And, should I also state that anyone else
> > is free to host those files?
> >
> > Would you mind if I copied and hosted this very
> > informative page?
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
> >
> > Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
>
> Just to be clear, here are the hard parts of the offer:
>
> - Offer one or all of the files mentioned, i.e.
> delphi201.zip, delphi200.zip, astrolib103.zip,
> "as is", i.e. as byte-by-byte exact copies.
> - Do not offer the PalmOS binaries written by me
> that they contain (i.e. delphi.prc, astrolib.prc)
> in a any different format for download.
> - Offer them for download for free.
>
> Regarding the rest, you are free.
>
> That includes any kind of "decorations" that you might
> offer on your web site. For example, you may use the
> HTML documentation of Delphi online on your web site,
> you may add additional information to it, if you feel
> like it. You may also use the current delphi.html or
> parts of it.
>
> MathLib is open source software, under the LGPL, like
> astrolib:
>
> http://www.radiks.net/~rhuebner/mathlib.html
>
> Feel free to add a message regarding the origin of
> MathLib, for example in the way that the author
> proposes in the user manual of MathLib (follow link
> at the page indicated above).
>
> If you download odyssey.zip from my web page (from
> the Archive section, 30MB), unzip it and open the
> folder Delphi, you will find more material about
> Delphi, like the web site for it, as it was several
> years ago. You may also freely use that material
> regarding Delphi/astrolib, except the binaries of
> previous distributions there (*.zip, *.sit).
>
> Regarding a copyright message, for me it would be
> fine if you labeled it something like "Delphi by
> Delphi Twentine" or something like that, but that
> is no hard condition on my side.
>
> You can try Delphi on any Windows 2000 or XP PC,
> if you first register as a developer at:
>
> https://www.developerpavilion.com/palmos/page.asp?page_id=170&target=page.asp&page_id=152&msg=need_to_login
>
> Then log on, navigate to "PalmOS Developer Tools",
> there to "Simulator" and download the "Palm OS
> Garnet 5.4 Simulator". Unzip the downloaded file,
> open the *.exe it contains, select one of the
> included ROM files (better not the japanese one),
> then drag the 3 files delphi.prc, astrolib.prc
> and mathlib.prc onto the simulator window, so
> that a progress bar briefly appears. Then start
> using Delphi (refer to the detailed graphical
> manual that comes with Delphi).
>
> Please note, that my main purpose is to detach from
> it and that I will do that in any case.
>
> Good luck in any case!
>
> )o+
>
> --
> PS: Apollia hosting Delphi (Apollon's oracle site)
> might be considered by many visitors a natural fit :)
Hi again,
After sleeping about it, I think you should do it.
I very rarely have any opinion about what others
should do or not do, so this is an exception. I
think it would bring you luck to host Delphi (and
likely also the astrolib source), maybe even also
concretely in terms of money.
Many people have been using Delphi for years, some
even professionally for consultations that they
charge money from (at least one person explicitly
told me that she is using Delphi "live" to do chart
interpretations for clients). I never charged any
of them a penny for Delphi, even though I certainly
invested a lot of work (maybe a 1000 hours or so).
If you want, I could write sort of a "message by the
author for your website", for example, like this:
"Thanks a lot to Apollia for now hosting Delphi
(and astrolib). Writing Delphi and providing it for
free has been a pleasure to me. If you like Delphi
and have used it frequently, please consider to
make donation to Apollia - she can really use it.
- "Delphi Twentine" (Alain Stalder), Nov 2006"
Since very recently, Venus is in Sagittarius, a
sign that is usually associated with generosity.
In my personal experience, an important aspect of
Venus is that it describes how people (men and
women) are towards women. So, if you put up a
page related to Delphi (and astrolib) within the
next few weeks, it might even literally help to
get some donations by visiting astrologers.
(I must note though, that I am notoriously lousy
at predicting what "the public" might do or not do).
If you like, I can replace the contents at
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
by a page that automatically redirects to your page.
And I would be glad to add a link to your page in
the links section of my site.
Please take all the time you need to make a decision
(and then please also tell me).
You asked why I will no longer host Delphi. Generally
speaking, it has to do with things being connected in
life. Some things just cannot go on any more from some
point on, must end. This has then the indirect effect
that some other, connected, things must end too, even
though there would be no reason "per se" that they must
end. That is the case with Delphi/astrolib. I talked
quite a bit about the things that it is connected to
previously at this group, but do not feel like warming
things up now (that is part of ending it, too).
Similarly, one could also make the general argument
that adding Delphi (and maybe astrolib source) to
your set of "things" might have an effect on the
other things in your life, I think likely a positive
one, but that is, of course, your sole decision.
Thanks anyway for taking the time and energy to
consider the option :)
)o+
I wrote:
: If you like, I can replace the contents at
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
: by a page that automatically redirects to your page.
: And I would be glad to add a link to your page in
: the links section of my site.
Here is a preview of that link to your site could
look like then:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/preview/links.html
I wrote:
: You can try Delphi on any Windows 2000 or XP PC,
: if you first register as a developer at:
:
: https://www.developerpavilion.com/palmos/page.asp?page_id=170&target=page.asp&page_id=152&msg=need_to_login
:
: Then log on, navigate to "PalmOS Developer Tools",
: there to "Simulator" and download the "Palm OS
: Garnet 5.4 Simulator". Unzip the downloaded file,
: open the *.exe it contains, select one of the
: included ROM files (better not the japanese one),
: then drag the 3 files delphi.prc, astrolib.prc
: and mathlib.prc onto the simulator window, so
: that a progress bar briefly appears. Then start
: using Delphi (refer to the detailed graphical
: manual that comes with Delphi).
Here's a simpler way to test Delphi on a Windows PC
- download http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/m505delphi.zip
- unzip to a folder
- start m505.exe
- drag delphi.prc, astrolib.prc and mathlib.prc onto the window
- tap the "home" button (little house) on the virtual device
until you see the delphi icon
- tap the delphi icon to start delphi...
I have been so free to offer the special version of the Palm OS
emulator (Palm OS < 5) from http://www.pdaforum.de/emulator/
for two weeks bundled with Delphi 2.01 for convenience here.
(This special version does not store the state of the Palm once
you exit the m505.exe application and restart it; the regular
Palm OS emulator is available from the Palm developer site
mentioned above, and needs a ROM file to run.)
That's essentially it. I will be quiet now (unless someone speaks
up), and at the end of November the files for Delphi/astrolib will
simply disappear from my site. Please note that there will apparently
be a french speaking site that will host at least Delphi (maybe not
astrolib, was mentioned explicitly), as the author of astroguide.fr
(Christophe Bussien) has said that he would host Delphi there*.
Merci beaucoup :)
)o+
* He did so before Apollia offered here to maybe host Delphi on
an english-speaking site, so he has precedence; although I think
that there is certainly room for an english and a french site,
especially considering that Delphi is english (although has
very little and very simple text).
I wrote:
: That's essentially it. I will be quiet now (unless someone speaks
: up), and at the end of November the files for Delphi/astrolib will
: simply disappear from my site. Please note that there will apparently
: be a french speaking site that will host at least Delphi (maybe not
: astrolib, was mentioned explicitly), as the author of astroguide.fr
: (Christophe Bussien) has said that he would host Delphi there*.
Sorry, correct site is http://www.astroguide.net (not .fr).
The author was born in Switzerland (like also Delphi/astrolib).
Apollia wrote:
: Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
:
: Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
People often overlook mean black moon Lilith in their charts.
Are you aware of where transiting Lilith is now ?
I wrote:
: - For all I know still works on all devices except likely
: the most recent ones (PalmOS 5.4.9 and maybe slightly
: older versions), namely Palm TX, Zire Z22 and Treo 700p.
: This is caused by a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9, more precisely
: in the emulation of the previous PalmOS <5 architecture.
For completeness, once more the details (no direct verification
by me, just hearsay, but I essentially tend to trust the source):
: It appears that on the most recent PalmOS handhelds, Delphi
: does not draw glyphs for planets and star signs on the chart
: wheel (but does display planet glyphs and positions on the
: right of the chart). This apparently affects devices with
: PalmOS 5.4.9, like the Treo 700p, Palm TX, and Zire Z22.
:
: This changed behaviour seems to be a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9 and
: the person who reported the bug to me apparently intends to
: report the bug to Palm, so that maybe in some future version
: the behaviour will be correct again.
:
: The same person also told me that Delphi actually works on
: Pocket PCs (Windows), if one uses the "styletap platform",
: a commercial application (currently around 50 US$) that
: emulates the earlier PalmOS 5.2.
:
: Of course, I cannot guarantee that the above information is
: 100% correct, and, as always, I recommend to try before you buy!
)o+
I have updated http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
as follows:
- added info about the current status
- added more detailed info about the bug in the newest
Palm OS devices (how it manifests and some workarounds)
)o+
--
For convenience, here is the current content:
Anybody wants to host Delphi / astrolib for Palm OS ?
Current status (19 Nov 2006):
- Somebody who maintains a french astrology site has offered
to host Delphi (I am not certain if also astrolib source).
- One person showed some interest to host an english-speaking
site, but has made no decision, yet.
For personal reasons, I will no longer be able to host the
astrology application Delphi for PalmOS on my web site, nor
will I be able to host the source code for the astronomical
library astrolib for PalmOS there; termination by the end
of November (of this year, 2006).
If anybody is interested to host these files, please feel
free to do so. Here are the binaries and the essential
information about what they are etc.:
1) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi201.zip
- Contains the most current version of Delphi (2.01) for
PalmOS handhelds; supports Palm OS version 3.5 and later.
- Contains a HTML (web) documentation with lots of screen
shots, and the binaries delphi.prc, astrolib.prc and
mathlib.prc (a mathematical library not written by me,
but required to run Delphi).
- Originally released in May 2002 (Saturn-Pluto opp.)
- For all I know still works on all devices except likely
the most recent ones (PalmOS 5.4.9 and maybe slightly
older versions), namely Palm TX, Zire Z22 and Treo 700p.
This is caused by a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9, more precisely
in the emulation of the previous PalmOS <5 architecture.
- The bug has the effect that glyphs for planets and star
signs are not drawn on the chart wheel (are left blank).
In the list of planets right to the right of the chart,
planet glyphs are drawn correctly. There are some clumsy
workarounds. By changing the color profile of your Palm
(there are apparently some utilities that can do that),
you can replace black "ink" for text by a very dark gray.
In that case, reportedly, glyphs for star signs (but not
for planets) are drawn again. To make planet glyphs
visible, too, draw a synastry chart between a birth
chart and itself and choose a very dark gray (but not
black) for the "partner chart". Of course, in synastry,
clicking on items on the chart behaves somewhat differently
and there is the extra effort to select synastry.
- The person who reported this bug to me said that he would
contact Palm regarding the bug, so that maybe in future
devices Delphi will work fully again. That person also
contributed also the following interesting option:
- Reportedly Delphi 2.01 works on Windows CE Pocket PC
handhelds with the ca. US$ 50 commercial PalmOS 5.2
emulator called "Styletap platform" (www.styletap.com).
I cannot confirm this from direct experience, though
(I have not tried, nor do I intend to buy a Pocket PC).
- Delphi 2.01 is currently downloaded between 5 and 10 times
a day from my web site.
- Many people downloading come from freewarepalm.com, namely
from this URL (which also features a description of Delphi
and some user feedback):
http://www.freewarepalm.com/astrology/delphi.shtml
- Also people often come from the following french web page:
http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/palm.htm
- Please note that I no longer own a PalmOS device, nor a
development environment for PalmOS, nor do I have the
source code for Delphi any more (gone since a few years).
- Since the 68k platform that Delphi was written for, does
not exist natively since PalmOS 5 any more, and is since
then emulated, Delphi should (except for bugs, like the
one mentioned above, in the emulation) continue to work
for possibly a long time into the future.
- Many people like Delphi.
2) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi200.zip
- Same as above, except that it is an older version of Delphi
(2.00), with identical features, except that it runs on
earlier PalmOS versions, namely 2.0 to 4.x.
- Probably hardly needed by anybody at this time (people who
have such old devices likely already have Delphi, if they
dig that kind of applications).
3) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/astrolib103.zip
- Source code for astrolib 1.03, an open source library that
calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
order of an arc second and calculates time zones based on
unix time zone data, even back to historical dates.
- Contains the C source code, but not a fully buildable
project (used to be CodeWarrior for PalmOS on Mac OS <X).
- Is referenced by the following link:
http://www.palmopensource.com/index.php?category=22
- As far as I know (and I have NOT checked recently), that
unix time zone data is the only source for fully free time
zone calculations worth mentioning.
- The calculations of planetary positions are outdated for
most purposes; today I would use Swiss Ephemeris.
- astrolib is distributed under the LGPL, the Lesser GNU
Public License.
Please note that my web page about Delphi/astrolib,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
will also be gone by the end of November.
I enjoyed writing these programs and providing them to
others and wish everybody good luck - with Delphi/astrolib
and with everything else.
I wrote:
: Current status (19 Nov 2006):
: - Somebody who maintains a french astrology site has offered
: to host Delphi (I am not certain if also astrolib source).
: - One person showed some interest to host an english-speaking
: site, but has made no decision, yet.
Sorry, correction again:
Current status (19 Nov 2006):
- Somebody who maintains a french-speaking astrology site has
offered to host Delphi (not certain if also astrolib source).
- One person showed some interest to host an english-speaking
site, but has made no decision, yet.
I know, could have brought the points across in less than
eleven posts... just as if Lieutnant Columbo was posting...
)o+
In article <1163992081.145505.41440@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Apollia" <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> >Just to be clear, here are the hard parts of the offer:
> >
> >- Offer one or all of the files mentioned, i.e.
> > delphi201.zip, delphi200.zip, astrolib103.zip,
> > "as is", i.e. as byte-by-byte exact copies.
>
> I'll offer all three.
:) :) :)
> >- Do not offer the PalmOS binaries written by me
> > that they contain (i.e. delphi.prc, astrolib.prc)
> > in a any different format for download.
>
> OK.
>
> >- Offer them for download for free.
>
> Of course... :-)
>
> >Regarding the rest, you are free.
>
> All righty. :-)
>
> >That includes any kind of "decorations" that you might
> >offer on your web site. For example, you may use the
> >HTML documentation of Delphi online on your web site,
> >you may add additional information to it, if you feel
> >like it. You may also use the current delphi.html or
> >parts of it.
>
> Well, I've done quite a bit of copying, pasting, and editing,
> using material from the documentation, from delphi.html,
> and from the pages in odyssey.zip (which I downloaded back
> in September), and finally have completed a section of my
> site devoted to Delphi and astrolib.
>
> http://astroblahhh.com/astrology/software/delphi_and_astrolib/index.shtml
[added "i"]
Great! Looks beautiful, I like it a lot. I have never been
able just to expose all things related to Delphi so naturally.
> It's not yet officially unveiled - I haven't yet linked up
> the rest of my site to this (for instance, I haven't
> announced it on the Updates page, etc.), in case there's
> anything that you think needs changing.
>
> If there's anything you'd like me to add, remove, or change,
> no matter how slight or drastic, please let me know (either
> on aamod or via email).
>
> >MathLib is open source software, under the LGPL, like
> >astrolib:
> >
> >http://www.radiks.net/~rhuebner/mathlib.html
> >
> >Feel free to add a message regarding the origin of
> >MathLib, for example in the way that the author
> >proposes in the user manual of MathLib (follow link
> >at the page indicated above).
>
> Done. :-)
>
> >If you download odyssey.zip from my web page (from
> >the Archive section, 30MB), unzip it and open the
> >folder Delphi, you will find more material about
> >Delphi, like the web site for it, as it was several
> >years ago. You may also freely use that material
> >regarding Delphi/astrolib, except the binaries of
> >previous distributions there (*.zip, *.sit).
>
> Also done. :-)
>
> >Regarding a copyright message, for me it would be
> >fine if you labeled it something like "Delphi by
> >Delphi Twentine" or something like that, but that
> >is no hard condition on my side.
>
> The way I have things, visitors should have no doubt
> that this software is by Delphi Twentine. :-)
>
> >You can try Delphi on any Windows 2000 or XP PC,
> >if you first register as a developer at:
> >
> >https://www.developerpavilion.com/palmos/page.asp?page_id=170&target=page.asp&page_id=152&msg=need_to_login
> >
> >Then log on, navigate to "PalmOS Developer Tools",
> >there to "Simulator" and download the "Palm OS
> >Garnet 5.4 Simulator". Unzip the downloaded file,
> >open the *.exe it contains, select one of the
> >included ROM files (better not the japanese one),
> >then drag the 3 files delphi.prc, astrolib.prc
> >and mathlib.prc onto the simulator window, so
> >that a progress bar briefly appears. Then start
> >using Delphi (refer to the detailed graphical
> >manual that comes with Delphi).
>
> Thank you for those very clear instructions. Thanks
> to this, I was able to try Delphi out, and I really
> like it a lot. I think it's the most intuitive astrology
> software I've ever used. It will be very gratifying to
> play a part in keeping it available to the world.
>
> >Please note, that my main purpose is to detach from
> >it and that I will do that in any case.
>
> I interpreted this to mean that you would prefer not
> to have a link back to your website, and would prefer
> these programs connected only to your pseudonym,
> Delphi Twentine.
>
> But, if I'm mistaken, please let me know.
I do not mind at all to have a link back. Would be nice.
At the moment, there is not much on my site that seems
to directly interest astrologers, but within a few years
that might change (because content will change, will be
more graphical and will likely have more direct contact
points to astrology, and maybe also people's perception
of things will change a bit, or maybe not).
> >Good luck in any case!
>
> Thanks, to you too... :-)
>
> >)o+
> >
> >--
> >PS: Apollia hosting Delphi (Apollon's oracle site)
> >might be considered by many visitors a natural fit :)
>
> :-)
>
>
> In another message, Hermes wrote:
>
> >Hi again,
> >
> >After sleeping about it, I think you should do it.
> >I very rarely have any opinion about what others
> >should do or not do, so this is an exception. I
> >think it would bring you luck to host Delphi (and
> >likely also the astrolib source), maybe even also
> >concretely in terms of money.
>
> I'll admit, those thoughts did occur to me... :-)
>
> >Many people have been using Delphi for years, some
> >even professionally for consultations that they
> >charge money from (at least one person explicitly
> >told me that she is using Delphi "live" to do chart
> >interpretations for clients). I never charged any
> >of them a penny for Delphi, even though I certainly
> >invested a lot of work (maybe a 1000 hours or so).
> >
> >If you want, I could write sort of a "message by the
> >author for your website", for example, like this:
> >
> >"Thanks a lot to Apollia for now hosting Delphi
> >(and astrolib). Writing Delphi and providing it for
> >free has been a pleasure to me. If you like Delphi
> >and have used it frequently, please consider to
> >make donation to Apollia - she can really use it.
> >- "Delphi Twentine" (Alain Stalder), Nov 2006"
>
> Well... you are most kind... :-) Thank you. I
> am extremely touched.
>
> I suppose I might as well accept this, or something
> like it, as long as this is still in keeping with
> your goal of detaching from Delphi/astrolib.
>
> >Since very recently, Venus is in Sagittarius, a
> >sign that is usually associated with generosity.
> >In my personal experience, an important aspect of
> >Venus is that it describes how people (men and
> >women) are towards women.
>
> I never thought of that astrological possibility...
> interesting. :-)
>
> >So, if you put up a
> >page related to Delphi (and astrolib) within the
> >next few weeks, it might even literally help to
> >get some donations by visiting astrologers.
>
> I'll let you know how it goes... :-)
>
> If anything ever happens, it'll be recorded on my
> Donations Received page.
>
> >(I must note though, that I am notoriously lousy
> >at predicting what "the public" might do or not do).
>
> Me too... :-)
>
> >If you like, I can replace the contents at
> >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
> >by a page that automatically redirects to your page.
> >And I would be glad to add a link to your page in
> >the links section of my site.
>
> Well, whatever you want is fine with me. I'll link
> back to you as well if you like.
I have modified
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
to redirect within 10 seconds to your site. I also provide
a link which people can click to the french-speaking site,
which is now apparently up, and hosts only Delphi, and is
very sparse and (at the moment) not too precise.
I have also added a link to your Delphi/astrolib pages
in my links section at
http://www.exactphilosopy.net/links.html
A link back to my site from anywhere on your site
would be nice, but is not a condition in any way... :)
> >Please take all the time you need to make a decision
> >(and then please also tell me).
>
> Thanks.
>
> I would probably have replied sooner, but, I do have
> a tendency to drop by aamod at intervals of every
> couple days (or more). Also, I figured I might
> as well get the web pages prepared first...
>
> >You asked why I will no longer host Delphi. Generally
> >speaking, it has to do with things being connected in
> >life. Some things just cannot go on any more from some
> >point on, must end. This has then the indirect effect
> >that some other, connected, things must end too, even
> >though there would be no reason "per se" that they must
> >end.
>
> Yes... I guess I can understand that...
>
> >That is the case with Delphi/astrolib. I talked
> >quite a bit about the things that it is connected to
> >previously at this group, but do not feel like warming
> >things up now (that is part of ending it, too).
>
> OK.
>
> >Similarly, one could also make the general argument
> >that adding Delphi (and maybe astrolib source) to
> >your set of "things" might have an effect on the
> >other things in your life, I think likely a positive
> >one,
>
> Yes, I think so too. I'm pretty sure it will attract
> much more web traffic than I've had. (And what that
> will lead to, who knows... :-) ).
>
>
> Just to toss in some random bits of astrology:
>
> I have asteroid 407, Arachne, at 3?35' Cancer, quite
> close to my MC at 3?48' Cancer. This has always kind
> of suggested to me the idea that perhaps doing
> web-related stuff is part of my purpose in life, if
> there is such a thing... :-)
>
> Hmm, it just occurred to me to see if there's an
> asteroid named Delphi. There isn't, but there's an
> asteroid named Delphine, #3218. In my chart it's at
> 10?56' Cancer, conjunct my sun at 11?39' Cancer.
> Sort of neat, I guess...
I hope to reply some astrology later today (got to go
to work now). Thanks a lot for hosting Delphi/astrolib :)
> >but that is, of course, your sole decision.
> >
> >Thanks anyway for taking the time and energy to
> >consider the option :)
> >
> >)o+
>
> You're welcome... and thank you. If there's anything
> I can ever do for you, let me know... :-)
>
>
> Hermes wrote in another post:
>
> >I wrote:
> >
> >: If you like, I can replace the contents at
> >: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
> >: by a page that automatically redirects to your page.
> >: And I would be glad to add a link to your page in
> >: the links section of my site.
> >
> >Here is a preview of that link to your site could
> >look like then:
> >
> >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/preview/links.html
>
> Looks nice... :-) Thank you.
>
> This link can point directly to the Delphi/astrolib page, at:
>
> http://www.astroblahhh.com/astrology/software/delphi_and_astrolib/index.shtml
>
>
>
> Hermes wrote in another post:
>
> >Here's a simpler way to test Delphi on a Windows PC
>
> Thanks. Downloaded that new file but haven't tried it yet
> (since I got Delphi working the other way).
>
> [...]
>
> >That's essentially it. I will be quiet now (unless someone speaks
> >up), and at the end of November the files for Delphi/astrolib will
> >simply disappear from my site. Please note that there will apparently
> >be a french speaking site that will host at least Delphi (maybe not
> >astrolib, was mentioned explicitly), as the author of astroguide.fr
> >(Christophe Bussien) has said that he would host Delphi there*.
> >
> >Merci beaucoup :)
> >
> >)o+
> >
> >* He did so before Apollia offered here to maybe host Delphi on
> >an english-speaking site, so he has precedence; although I think
> >that there is certainly room for an english and a french site,
> >especially considering that Delphi is english (although has
> >very little and very simple text).
>
> Well, the more sites, the better... :-) The more widely
> distributed something is, the less likely it will get lost.
>
>
> Hermes wrote in another post:
>
> >Sorry, correct site is http://www.astroguide.net (not .fr).
> >The author was born in Switzerland (like also Delphi/astrolib).
>
> Neat.
>
> Well, thanks again.
>
> ----
>
> Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
I wrote:
> I have modified
>
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
>
> to redirect within 10 seconds to your site. I also provide
> a link which people can click to the french-speaking site,
> which is now apparently up, and hosts only Delphi, and is
> very sparse and (at the moment) not too precise.
>
> I have also added a link to your Delphi/astrolib pages
> in my links section at
>
> http://www.exactphilosopy.net/links.html
And I have changed the contents of
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi201.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi200.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/astrolib103.zip
They contain now just one HTML file (but no binaries) with
the same contents as the delphi.html above.
(There are several sites on the web that link directly to
these zip files; that way people will automatically be
redirected to your site, where they can then download).
Apollia wrote:
: If there's anything you'd like me to add, remove, or change,
: no matter how slight or drastic, please let me know (either
: on aamod or via email).
There's one little thing that I forgot to mention at all:
Delphi (and astrolib) do not work if they are installed
on an "extension card" of any kind. Delphi (and astrolib
and MathLib) must be installed on the main memory of the
Palm OS device. If not, Delphi crashes.
Thanks again to Richard Nolle for pointing this out here,
I think about a year ago.
In article <1164032851.996568.293400@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
"ninjaking" <adel.ather@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> I'd be happy to host those files. I love the Delphi program for Palm
> and use it myself.
>
> I have two websites :
>
> www.typhonvision.com
>
> and
>
> www.thespiritconnect.com
>
> The thespiritconnect.com is a new one that I'm working on that is a
> network for the metaphysically minded.
>
> Email me at adelather**yahoo.com to talk more (Replace the ** with a @
> - to keep from getting spam)
>
> Adel
Thanks a lot for the offer. :)
Apollia has already put up beautiful pages for Delphi and
astrolib (see also the many other messages in this thread):
http://astroblahhh.com/astrology/software/delphi_and_astrolib/index.shtml
I think it is more user-friendly to have essentially just
one site for Delphi and astrolib (except in other languages
than english), so personally I would prefer if it stayed at
essentially just that. I certainly won't sue you if you also
put up a site for Delphi/astrolib, but would prefer not.
Feel free, though to link to her site...
I hope that that's OK with you.
Thanks again,
)o+
Apollia wrote:
: Just to toss in some random bits of astrology:
:
: I have asteroid 407, Arachne, at 3?35' Cancer, quite
: close to my MC at 3?48' Cancer. This has always kind
: of suggested to me the idea that perhaps doing
: web-related stuff is part of my purpose in life, if
: there is such a thing... :-)
I guess you know the mythology from Ovid's Metamorphoses,
with the weaving contests between Arachne and Minerva
(roughly the Roman equivalent of Greek Athena). Written
in the early Age of Pisces, it already contains a morale,
like later often fairy tales, a distinction between "good"
and "evil" of some sort, maybe like this:
"Skillfull weaving is only good if what you weave is good".
Weaving is also something that I would associate with
Fate, the threads representing the threads of people's
lifes that the Fates create, measure and cut, so I would
associate weaving maybe most strongly with the 3 Water
signs Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces.
: Hmm, it just occurred to me to see if there's an
: asteroid named Delphi. There isn't, but there's an
: asteroid named Delphine, #3218. In my chart it's at
: 10?56' Cancer, conjunct my sun at 11?39' Cancer.
: Sort of neat, I guess...
There is an asteroid Pythia (432), though; the priestess
that used to perform the oracles at Delphi. I have Pythia
conjunct my northern node at 22 Taurus (where also your
natal Chiron is). The planetary nodes of Mercury and Mars
are also around there, see e.g.:
http://www.astrologyhoroscopes.info/planetnodes.htm
(Earthquakes appear often to have some relations with the
lunar nodes or at least eclipses, i.e. sun and moon there,
and Pythia was according to legend sitting on an opening
of earth, a crack, from which fumes emerged and inspired
her to make predictions.)
Some more random bits of astrology...
Apollia wrote in a differnt post of the same thread:
: Darn, a typo. I forgot the "i" in Delphi. Sorry... :-) And I can't
: even blame
: Mercury retrograde. Thoughl, I was born a single day _after_ a Mercury
: retrograde. :-)
I was born with a retrograde Mercury, about a day before it
went direct again.
Apollia wrote in a differnt post of the same thread:
: >: Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
: >:
: >: Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
: >
: >People often overlook mean black moon Lilith in their charts.
: >Are you aware of where transiting Lilith is now ?
:
: Not at the moment I originally read this (even though I do have
: the mean apogee Lilith visible by default in Astrolog 5.40). But,
: of course, after I read this, I had to check. :-)
:
: Looks like Lilith/the mean apogee was close to exactly conjunct my
: ascendant at the time you posted this.
:
: What that means, I don't know... :-) But if you (or anyone else)
: would like to enlighten me, please feel free... :-)
Here are two articles at astro.com (meaning and astronomy):
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_planets2_e.htm
I am not sure what to say about Lilith except to mention the story
of the first wife of Adam and my observation that Lilith (the mean
lunar apogee) is often present in transit when something "happens",
more so than any other single astrological factor. Lilith is often
not drawn on charts, so people are often not aware of it, which
fits with the story again. I wrote several posts in the past with
some relation to Lilith (see odyssey.zip -> usenet.html). It is
certainly not an easygoing object on a chart.
The story is also a bit similar to the mythology of Eris, and,
since it relates to Adam and Eve, also an apple is there.
Brings me to Heracles' 11th labour, namely to retrieve 3 of Hera's
apples from her garden of the Hesperides. The apples are guarded
by a fierce dragon. Heracles kills the dragon, but was advised
not to pluck the apples himself, so he temporarily takes Atlas
place of literally supporting the world. Atlas gets the apples,
but no longer wants to carry the world. Using a trick, Heracles
manages to switch roles again and finishes the 11th labour.
At the end of it, he arranges that the 3 apples are brought
back to Hera, as not to offend her.
At first sight, it might seem that the 11th labour has not
achieved anything: the apples are where they were, as is Atlas.
But one important thing has changed: The dragon is now dead.
On my site, I now still have the same number of files related
to Delphi/astrolib than before: delphi.html, delphi201.zip,
delphi200.zip and astrolib.103, but their contents is now
different and I feel a lot better about it. I managed to
disconnect from it somewhat, as it was necessary, and there
is still a continuation. :)
Reminds also of a "Chapter 11 bankruptcy",
This has for me also quite a bit to do with Libra (Lilith now,
12th house Jupiter and 1st house Saturn in your chart, as well
as Pluto in your chart). It has to do with trade, with the
skill of rearranging (maybe weaving) already existing stuff to
several people's advantage.
In summer 2002, the company I was working for, a 100 people
startup that developed security software was about to be closed
by its owner, a large swiss telecommunications company. I and
all others had already been fired, when suddenly a german
company showed interest in taking us over. It later turned out
that the german company had had money problems too, but with
the money that the swiss telecommunciations company was willing
to give someone who would take over the company I was working
for, both small companies could be saved (at least for about
2 more years, at which point someone else took over, but that
is another story).
My father (he is an architect) once built a building for an
essentially jewish company in Switzerland and one of the
people there told him the following joke: Two people trade
a ring whenever they meet. They sell it to each other each
time at a higher price. Some day they meet again:
- "Hey, I would like to sell your ring, for xxx$ ?"
- "Sorry, this time I already sold it to someone else who
made me very good offer."
- "You are stupid! How are we going to make our living now ?"
I hope that was random enough. (Yes, I remember, chaos magic,
discorianism, etc.; here are some associations with 5: fingers
on a hand (chiron means "hand", chiron and thetis wedding where
eris showed up), 5 pillars of islam, mercury, quintiles,
5th house, creativity, talent, 5 = 1+4 (fire+earth) = 2+3
(air+water), ...).
)o+
I wrote:
> Apollia wrote:
> : Just to toss in some random bits of astrology:
> :
> : I have asteroid 407, Arachne, at 3?35' Cancer, quite
> : close to my MC at 3?48' Cancer. This has always kind
> : of suggested to me the idea that perhaps doing
> : web-related stuff is part of my purpose in life, if
> : there is such a thing... :-)
>
> I guess you know the mythology from Ovid's Metamorphoses,
> with the weaving contests between Arachne and Minerva
> (roughly the Roman equivalent of Greek Athena). Written
> in the early Age of Pisces, it already contains a morale,
> like later often fairy tales, a distinction between "good"
> and "evil" of some sort, maybe like this:
> "Skillfull weaving is only good if what you weave is good".
>
> Weaving is also something that I would associate with
> Fate, the threads representing the threads of people's
> lifes that the Fates create, measure and cut, so I would
> associate weaving maybe most strongly with the 3 Water
> signs Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces.
>
> : Hmm, it just occurred to me to see if there's an
> : asteroid named Delphi. There isn't, but there's an
> : asteroid named Delphine, #3218. In my chart it's at
> : 10?56' Cancer, conjunct my sun at 11?39' Cancer.
> : Sort of neat, I guess...
>
> There is an asteroid Pythia (432), though; the priestess
> that used to perform the oracles at Delphi. I have Pythia
> conjunct my northern node at 22 Taurus (where also your
> natal Chiron is). The planetary nodes of Mercury and Mars
> are also around there, see e.g.:
>
> http://www.astrologyhoroscopes.info/planetnodes.htm
Not to forget currently (and for a long time) Sedna.
> (Earthquakes appear often to have some relations with the
> lunar nodes or at least eclipses, i.e. sun and moon there,
> and Pythia was according to legend sitting on an opening
> of earth, a crack, from which fumes emerged and inspired
> her to make predictions.)
>
> Some more random bits of astrology...
>
> Apollia wrote in a differnt post of the same thread:
> : Darn, a typo. I forgot the "i" in Delphi. Sorry... :-) And I can't
> : even blame
> : Mercury retrograde. Thoughl, I was born a single day _after_ a Mercury
> : retrograde. :-)
>
> I was born with a retrograde Mercury, about a day before it
> went direct again.
>
> Apollia wrote in a differnt post of the same thread:
> : >: Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
> : >:
> : >: Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
> : >
> : >People often overlook mean black moon Lilith in their charts.
> : >Are you aware of where transiting Lilith is now ?
> :
> : Not at the moment I originally read this (even though I do have
> : the mean apogee Lilith visible by default in Astrolog 5.40). But,
> : of course, after I read this, I had to check. :-)
> :
> : Looks like Lilith/the mean apogee was close to exactly conjunct my
> : ascendant at the time you posted this.
> :
> : What that means, I don't know... :-) But if you (or anyone else)
> : would like to enlighten me, please feel free... :-)
>
> Here are two articles at astro.com (meaning and astronomy):
>
> http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm
> http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_planets2_e.htm
>
> I am not sure what to say about Lilith except to mention the story
> of the first wife of Adam and my observation that Lilith (the mean
> lunar apogee) is often present in transit when something "happens",
> more so than any other single astrological factor. Lilith is often
> not drawn on charts, so people are often not aware of it, which
> fits with the story again. I wrote several posts in the past with
> some relation to Lilith (see odyssey.zip -> usenet.html). It is
> certainly not an easygoing object on a chart.
>
> The story is also a bit similar to the mythology of Eris, and,
> since it relates to Adam and Eve, also an apple is there.
>
> Brings me to Heracles' 11th labour, namely to retrieve 3 of Hera's
> apples from her garden of the Hesperides. The apples are guarded
> by a fierce dragon. Heracles kills the dragon, but was advised
> not to pluck the apples himself, so he temporarily takes Atlas
> place of literally supporting the world. Atlas gets the apples,
> but no longer wants to carry the world. Using a trick, Heracles
> manages to switch roles again and finishes the 11th labour.
> At the end of it, he arranges that the 3 apples are brought
> back to Hera, as not to offend her.
>
> At first sight, it might seem that the 11th labour has not
> achieved anything: the apples are where they were, as is Atlas.
> But one important thing has changed: The dragon is now dead.
>
> On my site, I now still have the same number of files related
> to Delphi/astrolib than before: delphi.html, delphi201.zip,
> delphi200.zip and astrolib.103, but their contents is now
> different and I feel a lot better about it. I managed to
> disconnect from it somewhat, as it was necessary, and there
> is still a continuation. :)
>
> Reminds also of a "Chapter 11 bankruptcy",
>
> This has for me also quite a bit to do with Libra (Lilith now,
> 12th house Jupiter and 1st house Saturn in your chart, as well
> as Pluto in your chart). It has to do with trade, with the
> skill of rearranging (maybe weaving) already existing stuff to
> several people's advantage.
>
> In summer 2002, the company I was working for, a 100 people
> startup that developed security software was about to be closed
> by its owner, a large swiss telecommunications company. I and
> all others had already been fired, when suddenly a german
> company showed interest in taking us over. It later turned out
> that the german company had had money problems too, but with
> the money that the swiss telecommunciations company was willing
> to give someone who would take over the company I was working
> for, both small companies could be saved (at least for about
> 2 more years, at which point someone else took over, but that
> is another story).
>
> My father (he is an architect) once built a building for an
> essentially jewish company in Switzerland and one of the
> people there told him the following joke: Two people trade
> a ring whenever they meet. They sell it to each other each
> time at a higher price. Some day they meet again:
>
> - "Hey, I would like to sell your ring, for xxx$ ?"
"buy", not "sell"
> - "Sorry, this time I already sold it to someone else who
> made me very good offer."
> - "You are stupid! How are we going to make our living now ?"
>
> I hope that was random enough. (Yes, I remember, chaos magic,
> discorianism, etc.; here are some associations with 5: fingers
> on a hand (chiron means "hand", chiron and thetis wedding where
> eris showed up), 5 pillars of islam, mercury, quintiles,
> 5th house, creativity, talent, 5 = 1+4 (fire+earth) = 2+3
> (air+water), ...).
I have asteroid Chaos conjunct my MC (like, as I have read
somewhere in the past, Nietzsche and Van Gogh - both my ears
are still connected to my head, and no syphillis, yet).
Venus rising out of the sea, like Eurynome rising naked out
of Chaos; planet Venus exalted in Pisces...
Or something like that...
> )o+
Got to go... :)
Nothing is more common in usenet that people saying
that they won't post anymore. So, maybe won't be
strictly true for me. But has to end :). In the very
unlikely case that someone would want to contact me
outside of usenet in the future, I can be reached by
using the e-mail address displayed at the top left
corner at exactphilosophy.net (the e-mail that I am
using now will soon be void again).
Thanks for all the fish! :)
2π
PS: This is post 22 in this thread (Major Arcana)
Apollia wrote:
: >Venus rising out of the sea, like Eurynome rising naked out
: >of Chaos; planet Venus exalted in Pisces...
: >
: >Or something like that...
: >
: >> )o+
:
: Very interesting. I really should get more acquainted with
: mythology...
At least in some variations, Venus rose out of the sea
foam where Cronos/Saturn had thrown the genitals of his
father Ouranos/Uranus, which Cronos had cut off.
In the election chart of your Delphi/astrolib pages,
Venus is at a close trine* to Uranus in Pisces+ in
the 12th house#.
* Trines are associated with fate and harmony, which
is why I associate trines quite a bit with Venus.
+ Pisces <=> Sea, Ocean
# 12th house <=> Pisces, but I also think that the
common associations of the 12th house with prisons,
monasteries, etc. suggests a shifted association
12th-Cancer (shell, house), 1st-Leo, 2nd Virgo, ...
There would be a million more associations that I could
make, but not many very original ones any more, after
4.5 years of relatively regular posting*...
* See http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
Good luck with Delphi/astrolib and also otherwise :)
)o+
> In the election chart of your Delphi/astrolib pages,
> Venus is at a close trine* to Uranus in Pisces+ in
> the 12th house#.
No, it's Mercury.
Dan Barkye wrote:
: It's amazing how those ancients were so sophisticated and knew the
: how-to of so many things in so many fields.
Anybody know how it has been proven that this thing
is really 2000 years old (and not, say, a fake from
the Renaissance or the late 19th century) ?
All I have seen so far in terms of proof raises the
suspicion that there is at most some circumstantial
evidence (and maybe wishful thinking)...
)o+
John Roth wrote:
: As far as authenticity goes, it's quite well attested
: where it came from: a shipwreck. The gunk that
: surrounds it is typical of something that's been
: underwater for a couple of millenia, and would be
: essentially impossible to duplicate.
That's what I meant with circumstancial evidence.
For all it seems, the ship and most of the things
that it contained are 2000 years old and older.
But what links the Antikythera Mechanism to the
same epoch ? Only the fact that it was apparently
found in the same shipwreck ? Or the very heavy
corrosion of it ? With no other obvious evidence
at hand: It could have been fabricated at a later
epoch, artifically corroded in a short amount of
time and then placed in the shipwreck.
Let me make a few symbolic associations.
Neptune is currently in Aquarius and has been and
will be again next year in opposition to Saturn in
Leo (c.f. also Pirates of the Caribbean part 2+3).
That would allow for an illusion (Neptune) about
how sophisticated technology (Aquarius) was at the
start of the CE. But it would also rise realistic
questions (Saturn) about the authenticity of the
device, i.e. questioning whether it was really as
special (Leo) as widely claimed.
When were ship and mechanism found ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism:
: Sometime before Easter 1900, Elias Stadiatos, a Greek sponge diver, discovered
: the wreck of an ancient cargo ship off Antikythera island at a depth of 42 m
: (138 ft). Sponge divers retrieved several statues and other artifacts from the
: site. The mechanism itself was discovered on 17 May 1902, when archaeologist
: Valerios Stais[1] noticed that a piece of rock recovered from the site had a
: gear wheel embedded in it. Examination revealed that the "rock" was in fact a
: heavily encrusted and corroded mechanism that had survived the shipwreck in
: three main parts and dozens of smaller fragments. The device itself was
: surprisingly thin, about 33 cm (13 in) high, 17 cm (6.7 in) wide, and 9 cm
: (3.5 in) thick, made of bronze and originally mounted in a wooden frame. It was
: inscribed with a text of over 2,000 characters, many of which have been
: deciphered. [...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_wreck:
: Discovery and excavation
:
: In October 1900, a team of sponge divers led by Captain Dimitrios Kondos had decided
: to wait out a severe storm hampering their sail back from Africa on the island of
: Antikythera, and they began diving for sponges off the island's coastline. Although
: in years past divers worked naked, by 1900 divers usually wore standard diving dresses
: -- canvas suits and copper helmets -- which allowed them to dive deeper and to stay
: submerged longer.
:
: The first to lay eyes on the shipwreck 60 metres down was Elias Stadiatos, who quickly
: signalled to be pulled to the surface. He described the scene as a heap of rotting
: corpses and horses lying on the sea bed. Thinking the diver had gone mad from too much
: carbon dioxide in his helmet, Kondos himself dived into the water, soon returning with
: a bronze arm of a statue. Until they could safely leave the island, the divers
: dislodged as many small artifacts as they could carry.
:
: Together with the Greek Education Ministry and Hellenic Navy, the sponge divers salvaged
: numerous artifacts from the waters. By the end of 1902, divers had recovered statues of
: a philosopher's head, a young boy, a discus thrower, the bronze Ephebe of Antikythera of
: c 340 B.C.E. (now in the National Archaeological Museum of Athens), a Hercules, a marble
: bull and a bronze lyre. Many other small and common artifacts were also found. On May 17,
: 1902, however, archaeologist Valerios Stais made the most celebrated find. When diving
: to search the area of the wreck, he noticed that one of the pieces of rock near him had
: a gear wheel embedded in it. It would soon be identified as the Antikythera mechanism;
: originally thought to be one of the first forms of a mechanised clock, it is now
: considered to be the world's oldest known analog computer.
Now, when was the shipwreck discovered ? Sometime before
Easter 1900, as the first article claims, which would be
sometime in spring 1900 ? (As far as I remember, Greece
used still the Julian Calendar back then, until around
1918 or so; and Greek Orthodox Easter is often at a slighly
different date than in the West, but still around spring.)
Or was it October 1900, as the second article claims ?
(Or is there maybe a mixup, was 17 May 1902 just before
Easter 1902 in Greece ?)
The wreck was found relatively near Crete. Reminds of the
Minotaurus in Crete, the netunian underworld maze on it,
and of the often made associations of bulls (Taurus) with
Poseideon (the Greek god that the Romans identified with
Neptune). It was also Poseideon who kept Odysseus from
returning home to Ithaca, by repeatedly deviating the
course of his ship, using usually the weather to do so.
Reminds quite a bit of how the shipwreck was found.
Apparently there were something like 1.5 to 2 years between
the discovery of the shipwreck and the discovery of the
Antikythera Mechanism. Seems like that would in principle
leave enough time to fake the device and place it there
(maybe by some of the guys who were diving around there
anyway...).
If I cast a noon chart for 17 May 1902 (Julian Calendar)
for Crete at astro.com, I get the following positions:
Sun 8 Gem 03'32"
Moon 7 Pis 15'59"
Mercury 0 Can 59'05"
Venus 24 Ari 54'33"
Mars 24 Tau 14'22"
Jupiter 17 Aqu 11'05"
Saturn 27 Cap 24'42" (retrograde)
Uranus 19 Sag 46'09"
Neptune 0 Can 18'06"
Pluto 17 Gem 55'27"
Eris 23 Pis 47'43"
Chiron 13 Cap 45'08" (retrograde)
Lilith 12 Sag 14'47"
n.node 3 Sco 48'32"
Does Jupiter in Aquarius indicate luck for discovering
ancient technology ? Seems so. What does the close trine
to Pluto in Gemini mean though ? Trickery, double-play ?
And what exactly does the Mercury-Neptune conjunction in
early Cancer (just past summer solstice) mean ?
Is it maybe relevant (judging from another thread that
is currently here) that Saturn is retrograde ? Does that
maybe help somewhat the lack of critical questioning of
the immediate facts regarding authenticity ?
I have not read the Nature article. Maybe it or other
scientific articles contain clear direct proof of how
old the Antikythera Mechanism is. But it does not look
that much like it to me. Where's the illusion ? Maybe
on my side ? Or on the public side ? Or even both ?
Where are the facts ? Any research on the material the
Antikythera Mechanism is made of ? Does the composition
of the brass maybe indicate clearly where it was made,
say because it contains such and such rare elements that
were usually found in stuff made in that and that region
at this and that time in antiquity ? Or any other similar
examinations that show directly how old this thing is ?
Since the wooden frame is apparently long gone, a radio
carbon analysis to date it seems impossible.
Please note that I am in no way exluding that this thing
is really 2000 years old (and in that case, it would really
be a very interesting and sensational discovery), but why
does apparently nobody even bother to just mention the basic
proofs of authenticity ? Because they do not really exist,
because scientist cannot prove the authenticity direcly and
thus from a strictly scientific point of view the question
of authenticity remains open ?
)o+
Here are some interesting new consideration that I am preparing
for my site, exactphilosophy.net, to appear shortly after New
Year 2007. Symbolically, I would link them maybe most strongly
with Lilith's passage through Libra, but certainly not only,
like always all planets count and really good astrologers in the
practical sense of being able to counsel others should most
likely be able to seem them all... (Jupiter in Sagittarius,
Singleton Venus in saturn-ruled Capricorn, ...)
The coloration with Libra and the possible higher emphasis on
Venus, the traditonal ruler of Libra, is most likely also linked
to Eris' relatively recent discovery (times after the discovery
of a relatively big object in the solar system until the discovery
of another are usually considered to be colored by the object).
So, be prepared for some abstract complexity, for some hopefully
deep insights into life and death, that yet remain at an almost
unbearable lightness... - but let me grow from the beginning...
Once more, my abstract definition of the elements (see "elementary
philosophy" section on my site for a more detailed derivation):
space: IN/OUT
time: REST/MOVE
FIRE:= OUT+MOVE
EARTH:= OUT+REST
AIR:= IN+REST
WATER:= IN+MOVE
ETHER (5th element):= what causes transformations between elements
Furthermore FIRE and AIR are active, EARTH and WATER are passive
(not by definition, but by observation, see my site).
The 4 elements can in principle interface in 6 ways:
- FIRE <=> EARTH
- AIR <=> WATER
- FIRE <=> AIR
- EARTH <=> WATER
- FIRE <=> WATER
- AIR <=> EARTH
The first two interfaces are directly observable inside and outside.
And there transitions are obviously possible, as things start to
move or come to rest inside and outside. The remaining 4 interfaces,
in turn, are interfaces between in and out and cannot be observed
directly. So, it is very difficult to say something about them with
certainty, only to try to use logic and experience.
A successful principle in science is minimalism, so let me make the
minimal assumption about the interface that it is infinitely thin,
imagine, say, a thin membrane between in and out. Imagine a blob of,
say, EARTH, at the interface in-out. Now comes the trick: Move the
interface membrane just a little bit into EARTH, so that a small
slice of EARTH ends up inside and must now be AIR or WATER, as that
is by definition all there is inside.
Another successful principle in science is conservation of energy,
so it seems natural that at the interface in-out by moving the
interface a bit, the passive element EARTH remains passive, i.e.
it becomes WATER, not AIR.
Similarly, WATER becomes EARTH outside, FIRE becomes AIR inside,
and vice versa. This yields thus Aristotle's circle of the elements:
... <=> FIRE <=> AIR <=> WATER <=> EARTH <=> FIRE <=> ...
Note that the transformations outside and inside, i.e. at the
interfaces FIRE-EARTH and WATER-AIR do not preserve the property
active/passive. In the view of science, it is the mostly inanimate
outside world that often destroys directed motion and structure
in the outside world, because of the second law of thermodynamics
which states that in closed systems entropy ("disorder") can at
best stay constant, but in practice usually increases.
Life is different in that respect, it manages to create directed
motion repeatedly out of apparently nothing and it can grow
structures out of apparent disorder. This is possible because
life does not work in closed systems, but in open systems, where
it can repeatedly export entropy into the environment, while
locally being able to decrease entropy.
Thus it is not astonishing from the point of view of contemporary
science that the inside world apparently creates motion again
and again, so that the conscious mind has often a hard time to
stick to something. Since the mind is, according to science, the
place where the mind originates, the mind is part of a living
being, the brain. Moreover, most mental processes are considered
to be unconscious, thus the activity that the conscious mind
observes and tries to control, is likely of unconscious origin.
Note that the contemporary scientific approach implies that WATER
is in fact active and AIR is passive, like their outer moving and
resting counterparts, FIRE and EARTH. However, science approaches
inner processes from observation of the outer, material world.
Thus it might be bound to the outer world and might not be able
at all to describe inner processes as experienced from inside...
In Greek mythology, fate is represented by three women, the Fates.
Clotho spins the thread of life, Lachesis measures its length,
and Atropos cuts it. The remind me of the three kinds of interfaces,
the inner interface WATER-AIR that creates movement (creates life),
the outer interface FIRE-EARTH that destroys movement (death),
and in-between at the interface an instance that can apparently
effortlessly (since active/passive is preserved) define things.
Interesting in that respect is also that, according to Robert
Graves in "The Greek Myths", the ancient Greeks at the oracle
of Delphi (and at other places) only recognized two of the three
fates, namely Clotho (creates) and Atropos (destroys), while
giving the key role of measuring either to Zeus or Apollon.
The key position in the middle, where things are at a balance
and can thus be moved a little in either direction reminds a
lot of Libra. The scale pans of Libra are the claws of a bigger
scorpio that have been "cut off", so without any connection to
the body of the scorpion, I guess they must have died. Also,
the pair of scales is the only inanimate symbol for a star sign
in the zodiac. This is also related to the blindness of justice,
that can sometimes be inhuman.
The position of Lachesis, and the deeper significance of Libra,
might also symbolically be placed at the transition from Libra
to Scorpio, where it becomes apparent that the sometimes
lightly conducted movements of Libra can have heavy and deep
consequences from which Libra alhough it cannot reach them,
is still not independent in a moral sense and in the sense of
guild for what happens below.
Or something like that...
I also consider the Greeks to be related quite a bit to Libra,
to have sort of created a counterpoint in the Age of Aries, I
guess also creatively, as the sign of Libra did not exist, yet,
in astrology at the beginnin of the Age of Aries.
And Hellens, reminds, of course, of Helena of Troy and thus of
Eris and of Paris fated choice between 3 women. Paris, like all
human beings lives at the interface between heaven, where the
Gods are, and the underworld (Hades/Pluto), which is apparently
another reason why the position of Lachesis and Libra has to
do with human fate.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, everybody!
)o+
Dee wrote;
: Pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
: > Carter wrote:
:
: > > are we astrologers cos we're up for scraps, or the real meat,...
:
: > > understand the fundamentals first and every bite will be wholesome to
: > > say the least,...
:
: > I say:
: > http://pedantus.free.fr/Willimina_03b.jpg
:
: Awwwww. Is she ever ever cute! :-)
Yeah, beautiful :)
: These two Libra grrls followed my daughter home last year:
: http://www3.sympatico.ca/davfair/k9s.html
Cute how they are symmetrically holding up Libra's circle of
perfection and beauty, and yet it has "Jawz" imprinted on it.
)o+
Carter wrote:
: > dbjes@earthlink.net wrote:
: >
: > > -- Leo rules cosmetics and fashion?
: > >
: >
: > you mean you didn't know!?,..
: >
: > check out the hairdressers in your hood,.. or the beauty parlours,.. ave
: > a look at the girls in the offices charts,.. just for kicks,..
What about Beyoncé Knowles, born 4 September 1981
in Houston TX, noon chart here:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/m4b7MKr6WY6e.htm
Node just out of Leo, Mars in Leo, but lots of planets
in Libra, sun in Virgo, some more in Scorpio. Her mother
(maiden name Beyonce) has a hair saloon in Houston TX.
The daughter seems to care a lot about her looks.
Is hair the same as cosmetics and fashion ?
This saturday I read an interview with Jack Nicholson,
conducted by a movie director and friend of him. Very
interesting, seems he grew up thinking his mother was
his sister and his grandmother was his mother (and also
another "sister" was his aunt). Sheds some new light on
that scene in "Chinatown".
Anyway...
)o+
CFA wrote:
: 1965 and 67 were the Saturn oppositions to Ur/Pl.
Just a few thoughts I had ruminating on Uranus-Pluto
in the sixties this afternoon, as follows.
I was born in August 1966 (Leo), between oppositions.
In China that was the middle of the year of the Fire Horse.
Apparently the Fire Horse is something that Chinese
culture is afraid of, because in it the usually good
sides of the Horse are exaggerated, which is a challenge
to a culture that is so much oriented towards adaption
of the individual to the collective (mirrored in Western
view by the start of the year with the sun in Aquarius).
That goes as far as people often not registering the
births of their Fire Horse children until (Feb) 1967,
and had even worse consequences in the past, apparently
especially for women:
http://www.io.com/~cortese/hinoeuma/
In Chinese astrology, the cycle repeats every 60 years,
which is formally all 5 elements per 12 star sign of a
year, but, of course, is also close to the time between
two Saturn-Jupiter conjunctions.
In Greek mythology, horses have to do with Centaurs, and
thus with Sagittarius who's constellation is a Centaur
in mythology (most commonly Cheiron). There is also a
strong relation to Poseidon/Neptune who was first to
install horse races (according to mythology, of course).
Previous years of the fire horse were 1906, when e.g.
Jung met Freud for the first time, and also close to
Einstein's discovery of relativity and other things,
or a year before Jung met Sabina Spielrein, if I
remember correctly.
Before that, there was a year of the horse in 1846, i.e.
the year that Neptune was discovered.
Comparing 1966 and 1906 (see link above), one would judge
that Uranus has indeed brought some progress in the sense
of Aquarius, i.e. in the sense of equality of the sexes,
and more.
Any predictions for 2026 ?
)o+
Carter wrote:
: Barbie just needs a Hairdoo,..
: it's her liber ration [11],...
California ?
Carter wrote:
: Hermes wrote:
: > Carter wrote:
: > : Barbie just needs a Hairdoo,..
: > : it's her liber ration [11],...
: >
: > California ?
: >
:
: heheh,..
: so which would you say holds rulership over California,..
: Libra or Leo,..
:
: i would initially assume the leo aquarius axis fits well with Calif
: reputation,.. Leo?,...
Yeah, quite close. As far as I remember, CA joined
the USA in September 1850, with a Virgo sun and the
northern node in early Leo. One of the main reasons
for joining the USA was the due to the gold rush,
which had started in 1848 (sun in Aquarius), by a
Swiss imigrant (Switzerland has a strong emphasis
on Leo in its charts). And, in 1846, a Fire Horse
year, CA was briefly conquered by Mexico.
The nodes at early Leo are something that I have seen
in the charts of the Hegira, then in Spain at the time
that moslems had been there, and now in CA and the USA.
Looks like this sort of says "go west":
Middle East => Spain (=> Mexico) => USA => CA
There was a more detailed discussion of CA's charts this
summer (sun in Leo and Virgo) at alt.astrology.tropical.
My posts there are gone, except where quoted by other
posters. The stuff about the Hegira and the USA and Spain
was earlier on in various posts here and a aat. I do not
feel like warming it all up now. If you are interested
in more details go to my site, exactphilosophy.net, go
to the links section and download "odyssey.zip", unzip it
and search for the corresponding keywords in the large
"usenet.html" file, which contains all my usenet posts
until sometime this summer.
Since this is post 13, here's one of Eris' apples:
I certainly also see a strong emphasis on Leo-Aquarius
in CA and I also see Virgo in CA (like in Beyonce Knowles),
but overall, in my feeling, the best association of a
single sign or planet with CA would still be Pisces...
Why? Because of the ultra- thin surface that can break up
at any moment (literally in Earthquakes <=> Neptune, the
modern ruler of Pisces, and figuratively, when between
people suddenly and often violently hidden things come
to the surface)? Because Venus in exalted in Pisces?
Astronomically, planet Jupiter has a large red spot on
it (a storm), reminding, of course, of Cheiron's wound.
Similarly, Zeus' constantly jealous brother Neptune has
a dark spot (and the strongest winds of any planet in
the solar system), what does it stand for ? Is that
maybe a bit solar, since it reminds of sun spots, which
occur every 11 years (<=> Aquarius?)?
And, maybe most, as seen even in this argumentative chain,
because of California's narcissistic schizophrenia ? Or
is that maybe more related to current times with Uranus
in Pisces and Neptune in Aquarius?
Yes, and no, I would say, always a mix, the world is,
just like Pisces would see it. Or is that the moon that
is currently at the transition Aquarius-Pisces? The
sextile it makes to the sun (and Pluto)? Or the quincunx
that my sun is making with Pisces, or my Lilith there,
or Cheiron/Saturn later in Pisces?
)o+
In article <ioqdnSd4X_eHuAzYnZ2dnUVZ8qninZ2d@is.co.za>,
Carter <Cr@ters.com> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> > Carter wrote:
> > : Hermes wrote:
> > Yeah, quite close. As far as I remember, CA joined
> > the USA in September 1850, with a Virgo sun and the
> > northern node in early Leo. One of the main reasons
> > for joining the USA was the due to the gold rush,
> > which had started in 1848 (sun in Aquarius), by a
> > Swiss imigrant (Switzerland has a strong emphasis
> > on Leo in its charts). And, in 1846, a Fire Horse
> > year, CA was briefly conquered by Mexico.
> oof,.. an with all the prspects of that [leo]Gold,..
> [leo]territory had to be maintained,...
> >
> > The nodes at early Leo are something that I have seen
> > in the charts of the Hegira, then in Spain at the time
> > that moslems had been there, and now in CA and the USA.
> > Looks like this sort of says "go west":
> > Middle East => Spain (=> Mexico) => USA => CA
> > I certainly also see a strong emphasis on Leo-Aquarius
> > in CA and I also see Virgo in CA (like in Beyonce Knowles),
> > but overall, in my feeling, the best association of a
> > single sign or planet with CA would still be Pisces...
> >
> > Why?
>
> i think ure picking up pisces here for leo virgo sector draws heavily
> from the aquarius pisces sector,..
>
> as i think this,. imagine ol marylin monroe,.. an i guesse there virgo
> involved,.. why,? for opposite pisces,..
>
> leo figure head needs aquarius crowd,...
> and virgo body landguage kinda hypnotises that crowd,...
>
> and here we find the virgoan backdrop of technical "hollywood"
> and the absolute piscean dreamland that surrounds it,..
>
> i usually call virgo "god's tool box",.. you often find clutter,
> treasure and mangled body parts,... so a mess is often what you find,
> but a professional mess,.. a technical mess,.. plenty gear back there,...
>
> this must be all those studios, and wearhouses,.. hey an all the sets,.
> thats a joke,..
> go vigo launch pad,.. err,. which direction would you like to go in sir,..
>
> thats nice mercury neg example,.. introspective mercury,.. in terms of
> the scene/backdrop,.. the imposed asscociation resident in any place,..
> [grinding teeth on another discussion,..]
>
> virgo miramax,..
>
> Pisces California obviously pisces,.. n't this what the Californian's
> conjure up/need, in order to give reason to their leoline jests,..
> create their own little cloud,..
>
> i mean mention gold to a gold digger,..... an he starts [pisces]dreaming
> rather quickly,... just requires a bit o [virgo]effort, an one or two
> of the right [aquarius]connections,...
>
>
> leo gold lends to piscean dreams yes i agree,..
> but i think this is process and not rulership,...
>
> if anything we may tend stronger leaning to leo/virgo rulership of
> california,..!!
>
>
> ???...
Reminds me of Chuang Tzu (Zen/Taoist philosopher, 4th century BC)
: Chuang Tzu and Hui Tzu had strolled on to the bridge over the Hao,
: when the former observed, 'See how the minnows are darting about!
: That is the pleasure of fishes.'
:
: 'You not being a fish yourself', said Hui Tzu, 'how can you possibly
: know in what consists the pleasure of fishes'?
:
: 'And you not being I', retorted Chuang Tzu, 'how can you know that
: I do not know'?
:
: 'If I, not being you, cannot know what you know', urged Hui Tzu,
: 'it follows that you, not being a fish, cannot know in what consists
: the pleasure of fishes'.
:
: 'Let us go back', said Chuang Tzu, 'to your original question. You
: asked me how I knew in what consists the pleasure of fishes. Your
: very question shows that you knew I knew. I knew it from my own
: feelings on this bridge.
Source: http://www.universal-tao-eproducts.com/ChuangTzu17UTEP.html
Yesterday, I saw the movie "The Holiday", where Cameron Diaz'
and Kate Winslet's characters exchange houses for the holidays,
between LA and a cottage in England. Kate Winslet's character
meets an guy from the movie business in LA who explains to her
what a "meet cute" is: A man and a woman go separately to a
warehouse to buy a pair of pajamas. The man tells tells the
salesperson that he only needs the trousers, the woman that
the only needs the top. That's a meet cute.
What sign is usually related to relations?
Here's another piece of Chuang Tzu, the famous butterfly dream:
: Once Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly,
: a fluttering butterfly who felt at ease and happy
: and knew nothing of Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he woke
: up: Then he was again really and truly Chuang Tzu.
: Now I do not know whether Chuang Tzu dreamt that
: he was a butterfly or whether the butterfly dreamt
: that it was Chuang Tzu, even though there is
: certainly a difference between Chuang Tzu and the
: butterfly. This is how the change of things is.
(Richard Wilhelm's translation to German rendered to
English, by me)
Is Hollywood/LA dreaming of California, like Leo of
Pisces or Pisces of Leo, or like Aquarius of Virgo,
or Virgo of Aquarius, or any other quincunx, but
especially Leo-Pisces?
Am I now me, posting this into the virtual world, or
am I maybe Carter who is dreaming that he is me and is
posting this here? How would I be able to tell?
Is maybe on the side of me, CA Pisces, but on the side
of Carter CA Leo?
But, isn't that like in the story on top?
What sign are dreams usually associated with?
Or is that again just because I am now on my side of
the dream, seeing things thus just they way they are
from my perspective?
In December 1996, I was in Montreal, deepest winter,
usually very cold, and for the first time, I tried to
book a holiday over the internet. In order to confirm
my trip, I had to make a phone call to LA. The woman
on the other side, when she heard where I was, would
have liked a lot to be where I was, in a real winter
with real snow, like I was, while I was already tired
of the winter, because I had already spent the winter
half year 1996-96 in Montreal where people do not
bother to remove christmas lights after christmas,
just do not turn them on again, and then, in spring
when the snow melts, all the garbage of the winter
comes to sight. Oh, yeah, trading places would have
been a great idea, then.
Are interfaces like the two sides of a Moebius Tape,
is there no real boundary and you can simply get to
the other side by walking along the tape?
Leo dreaming again of Pisces, or really Pisces?
"really" and "Pisces" in the same sentence, and
even next to each other?
I think it was Sigourney Weaver in an interview who
described things in the movie business in LA as a
strange mix between ultra-tough (like the oldest sign
in the zodiac, who knows what goes and what not),
and very sensitive (like the oldest sign in the
zodiac, who has seen it all can thus also understand
it all at once).
Hmn, weaving. What about Libra. In the cute meet, there
had apparently to be a balance between two things taken
apart (pajamas) and two coming together (the girl and
the guy). Is that Libra, with Saturn exalted, or is it
maybe still Pisces with Libra's ruler Venus exalted?
Eppur si muove! ?
Born to roar? Not really after more than 700 years...
)o+
Something different...
(yearly update is up)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Apollia wrote:
> Carter wrote:
[...]
> >but can you keep up with yourself,..
> >there is a female friend of your's that sure does act as a good
> >cheerleader? red hair? gosh dare we ask,..
>
> Hmmm... nope, no female friends with red hair, though weirdly enough
> I had a dream sometime before reading this post where I was at a
> restaurant with a Wendy's fast-food place sign (even though the
> place wasn't a Wendy's). I wish I had written more down about that
> dream.
>
> The Wendy's logo features a girl with red hair. An example is at the
> upper left of this site: http://www.wendys.com/
>
>
> The only other thing that occurs to me involving a female with red
> hair is my avatar in a massive multiplayer online game Second Life
> (which I haven't been able to even log into since my computer broke
> down).
>
> I always went around with red hair, usually in some strange,
> distinctive hairstyle or other.
>
> (Gosh, maybe you _are_ right about Leo and hair... :-) But
> I've scarcely done creative things at all with my real hair).
>
> Here's a screenshot of "me" in Second Life:
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/apollia/secondlife/me_on_my_new_land_002.jpg
>
>
> What in my chart made you think of a female friend with red hair?
>
> I'm guessing you'll say 11th house with Leo at the cusp (though I'm
> inclined to associate the color red with Mars, not Leo).
There's another object that is literally very red: Sedna.
http://www.planetwaves.net/astrology/sedna.html
Unlike Pluto, Sedna is so far the biggest object in its
regime (although it is very unlikely that this will stay
so in the mid-term future), so Sedna is likely a strong
factor in charts (at least that is how it feels to me).
Sedna's story involves cutting and fingers, two things
that are also close when cutting hair.
The head is usually associated with Aries (<=> ruled by
Mars), fingers with Gemini (natal Mars in Gemini).
Are virtual worlds like usenet groups more like the outer,
"real" world, or are they more like inner worlds, or even
more like dreams?
One important difference that I see between inner and outer
worlds is movement. If I look out of my window, and look at
some trees, they usually do not move (at least not much). It
is no problem to look at them for minutes and to see that
things stay constant. But, if I close my eyes and imagine a
tree, it is difficult to keep it at rest. Quickly my mind
deviates to all kinds of other things.
From the point of view of science, it is clear why this is
so, namely because the mind is inside my brain, which is
alive and repeatedly creating motion, while the outside
world except people and animals is mostly static (on the
usual time scale that I can immediately observe and at the
sizes that I can usually see).
So, one would expect virtual worlds to me more like inner
worlds, because they are directly created by living people
(at least that is the general assumption).
In real life, I am not much of a person who would give a
speech in public, but in usenet I do. Are the rules in virtual
worlds reversed to some degree, do introverted persons rather
become extroverted and are extroverted people simply not
interested in virtual worlds? Or are more specific factors
required? (Which ones?)
I remember that C.G. Jung, in his article about synchronicity,
where he also discusses astrology, picks up the question of
where in a chart one might see introversion or extroversion.
Isn't in Second Life a typical character a woman with butterfly
wings? I see aspects of Pisces and Gemini in that character,
and also with dreams, the transformation from caterpillar to
butterfly, life, two wings when fluttering around, apparently
just one wind when seated on a flower, sometimes resting a bit
on a flower, then moving on again, quick and slow...
(as usually, there would be more, I associate the dark tone in
video games etc. often also with people with Uranus in Scorpio,
not sure why, the symmetric hair reminds, of course, of Libra,
etc.)
One more, more or less random idea: Taoism's Tao Te Ching comes
in 9 x 9 = 81 parts (bufferfly dream <=> taoism). Mercury and Mars
are in the 9th house in your chart, maybe that is an important
indicator, maybe not.
)o+
5628122006@news.bluewin.ch> <rcydnRduQs9vUgnYRVnytwA@is.co.za>
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In article <rcydnRduQs9vUgnYRVnytwA@is.co.za>, Carter <Cr@ters.com>
wrote:
> nice post herme's,...
>
> be i you or you i,.... considering i post when you are sleeping and you
> when i am,... a thing i love about the internet,.. we truly are/couldbe
> each other here,..
>
> the ching is one of the most valuable books we have,.. or "i" shall i
> rather say,...
>
>
> if CA were Pisces rulership,.. then what we say of Leo requiring Pisces
> would be then,..
>
> Pisces requiring Libra,...
> ok,.. i see what you mean,..
>
> every dreamer needs a love/r,.. oh the arduous journey of the soul,...
> ok,... now i get what meet cute is all about,..
>
> and i am foreign to these parts hence i know not of the fish or their
> sensations,... just rank am commentary here u know,..
>
> my last question/thought would be,..
>
> leo requ pisces,...
> pisces requ libra,...
>
> i think leo requiring piscean delusion is more down the bodybuilding
> beachy CA stereotype,...
>
> and furthermore,.. in systems i use,.. leo pisces libra taurus saggita
> and so on,... but yeah,.. in a chain like this, they all require the
> vibes most condusive to their needs,...
>
> so leo loves pisces loves libra loves taurus loves saggitta,.. etc etc,..
>
>
>
> back end of my point would be,.. and i love your verse,..
> where is the macho in Pisces Libra,...
> as opposed to Leo Pisces,...
>
> what we could be picking up on is the slime in the pond of fishes which
> adds to that silky feeling slippin around the pool,...
>
> Leo CA pushes Piscean illusion of Libran society,...
>
> but it starts with an ego,..
> or with a dream,... but the ego feeds the dream?,...
>
>
> one may say that this then verges on the yag yag,.. but this is actually
> where the art is at,.. the system of signs and there interrelations is
> far more magnificent than what has been dealt with in commercial
> astrology texts,........ so i think such yak is good exercise,..
> and praise to hermes/carter [heheh] for such interludes,..
Thanks, nice change to the usual Mars/Uranus in Cancer
US brotherfight, non-exclusive disagreement (Sag)... ;)
One small detail that I noticed: CA has Sedna at about
27 degrees Pisces (I have Chiron at about 26 and Saturn
at about 29, Marily Monroe, if I remember correctly had
Uranus at 29 Pisces, my mother has Venus in late Pisces,
and, of course, CA has Neptune at about 5 Pisces, like
Venus (and roughly Saturn at 8) of someone else and
apparently still crucial...
So, I may be a bit biased, or maybe exactly for these
reasons not...
)o+
In article <j099c.d0o.19.1@news.alt.net>, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> Ms.Maleficent wrote:
[...]
> >I find Carter's opinion of Pluto naive, at best. I would never discount the
> >sweeping and powerful manifestations of the outer planets (particularly
> >Pluto) in the personalities, lives and affairs of people and this planet
> >(and coming from someone who has experienced a Pluto Ascendant conjunction,
> >and later a Pluto Moon conjunction, I think my opinion has at least a little
> >merit), but I am surprised at your seemingly complete dismissal of the Mars
> >Scorpio connection.
>
> Given the state of astronomy at the time, it makes sense. But it's
> like the Venus/Libra connection. It has some affinities, but Pluto is
> a much more logical ruler for Scorpio in my mind.
I agree with Sharyn. The recent transits of sun and Mercury
over Pluto were something that I could still feel quite
strongly, maybe there was a bit less of absoluteness (ehm,
I guess that would mean no longer absoluteness), but I am
not absolutely sure of that (maybe because my Uranus/Pluto
conjunction in Virgo has lost its absoluteness, but then
that would mean that...)
I know I mentioned that before, but once more: I think it
is important to note that Lilith was added at about the
same time (early 1930's) as Pluto, and that thus these two
objects are connected, are related also to Mars having
suddenly been removed from rulership over Scorpio, and
thus effectively by stripping Mars of his (or maybe I
should say her) rulership over Scorpio, which in my view
(I agree with Sharyn), Pluto cannot fully replace...
Out came apparently Mean Black Moon Lilith...
Moreover, I consider the "collective planets" Uranus to
Pluto etc. to be children of the Age of Aquarius, as the
repeated attempts by Aquarius to help (or "help") humanity
by adding new concepts, not fully aware that the room of
concepts is (at least in the view of many of the other
signs in the zodiac) limited, that you cannot really add
new concepts without removing them from other planets or
signs or houses etc.
By the way: Why is it that modern psychological astrologers
have no problems to write large and detailed books about a
single planet (or even not planets like Cheiron or Lilith,
etc.), but nobody (except "predictions for 2007" style books)
writes a 500 page book about, say, "Taurus", citing all kinds
of charts, retelling mythology, etc. Why that bias? Goes as
far as some astrologers completely ignoring the richness of
the zodiac and its stories (focusing instead on aspects and
planets). Too much Aquarius and too little Leo lately,
I would say...
Happy New Year to you two, too, and to everybody else!
)o+
In article <iuGdndDuOIu2WwnYnZ2dnUVZ_revnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Ms.Maleficent" <ms.maleficent@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...] Ptolemy said that both Aries and
> Scorpio are ruled by Mars because "they are agreeable to its destructive and
> inharmonious nature, and form a hostile square aspect to the 'houses' of the
> luminaries." [...]
I guess this means Aries square Cancer and Scoprio square Leo.
But the same argument could be made with Venus: Taurus square
Leo and Libra square Cancer. So, is Venus also "destructive
and inharmonious"?
By the way: How does the perception of Saturn as the greater
maleficent fit with the idea the Golden Age was ruled by
Saturn? Is the former maybe a fear of Saturn that is rather
piscean, while the latter idea is older (Age of Aries or
likely even older)?
Will Pluto in Capricorn really be all that horrible? What
happens when the sun enters Capricorn. Usually a few more
days of work, then a holiday where you can meet the family
(ok, in many families that is arguably horrible), and then
maybe a few more days of work and then a big party and a
couple more days off. Takes guts from a planets that is
usually perceived as first to be given something in return
before giving something himself to start his rulership
with some relaxation and time to reconsider and plan...
But then again, Pluto is not the sun, so things may be
different then. Conversely, I Saturn in Leo has so far
been a lot more pleasant to me than Saturn in Cancer.
I think Saturn and Leo complement each other well, both
like to reduce things to the essential, like clear
decisions (like the sun throws light and thus creates
also clear lines to the shadow, which by the way then
seems even darker, maybe)...
Maybe something about Jupiter in Sagittarius (and also
the above, never possible to separate things completely).
Recently I saw a video at MTV, with strong b/w images
with lots of actors and other known people, with the
music of Jonny Cash (I have know idea when/where he was
born), "sooner or later God is gonna cut you down".
Reminds me a lot of the seemingly just lucky and random
strokes of lightning of Zeus/Jupiter. This autumn two
maybe relatively minor things in my apartment died, well
only "died", my 20 year old TV with a brownian tube,
replaced it with an LCD TV, albeit with the lower quality
of these devices, damn Saturn in Leo, and then my only
plant in my apartment died, a Euphorbia pulcherrima,
in german called "Weihnachtsstern" (="Xmas star"), the
plant with the red leaves that can be bought almost
everywhere before Xmas. Got it as a present a bit more
than 4 years ago, had some emotional value. In nature
lives near the equator an can apparently get up to 6
meters high (20 feet). Anyway, just died within a few
weeks, first I noticed that I needed less water,
usually after a week, of no water, the earth would be
all dry at the surface, but now it stayed wet, then
the leaves started to fold in and get softer. I tried
then to see if something was wrong inside the earth
and took it out, but could see nothing, then I had to
cut off some parts of the plant because the started to
smell quite foul, I left the leaves and branches that
were still looking ok, but they also curled up and
then they all dried up, and the plant is essentially
dead. I guess most people throw these plants away after
christmas or they die on them after the holidays, but
for me it is still sad, I usually have a green thumb,
although I have maybe only had 3 plants in my life.
Strange, still, that something dies without any sign,
no spots, say, on the leaves, etc.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=EUPU9
Not gonna go into the potential psychological reasons
that might be at least in synchronicity with that...
Well, there are also likely again multiple factors,
over which, I hope, at least Zeus had an overview.
)o+
In article <j1m6t.gt2.19.1@news.alt.net>, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >In article <j099c.d0o.19.1@news.alt.net>, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> >> Ms.Maleficent wrote:
> >[...]
> >> >I find Carter's opinion of Pluto naive, at best. I would never discount the
> >> >sweeping and powerful manifestations of the outer planets (particularly
> >> >Pluto) in the personalities, lives and affairs of people and this planet
> >> >(and coming from someone who has experienced a Pluto Ascendant conjunction,
> >> >and later a Pluto Moon conjunction, I think my opinion has at least a little
> >> >merit), but I am surprised at your seemingly complete dismissal of the Mars
> >> >Scorpio connection.
> >>
> >> Given the state of astronomy at the time, it makes sense. But it's
> >> like the Venus/Libra connection. It has some affinities, but Pluto is
> >> a much more logical ruler for Scorpio in my mind.
> >
> >I agree with Sharyn. The recent transits of sun and Mercury
> >over Pluto were something that I could still feel quite
> >strongly, maybe there was a bit less of absoluteness (ehm,
> >I guess that would mean no longer absoluteness), but I am
> >not absolutely sure of that (maybe because my Uranus/Pluto
> >conjunction in Virgo has lost its absoluteness, but then
> >that would mean that...)
> >
> >I know I mentioned that before, but once more: I think it
> >is important to note that Lilith was added at about the
> >same time (early 1930's) as Pluto, and that thus these two
> >objects are connected, are related also to Mars having
> >suddenly been removed from rulership over Scorpio, and
> >thus effectively by stripping Mars of his (or maybe I
> >should say her)
>
> Mars=her?
>
> >rulership over Scorpio, which in my view
> >(I agree with Sharyn), Pluto cannot fully replace...
>
> Some books have the two planets as co-rulers. I don't completely
> dismiss the Mars/Scorpio connection. It's just not as prominent for me
> as that other planet.
>
> >Out came apparently Mean Black Moon Lilith...
>
> I mostly don't know about the Liliths. (Hi Christine :-))
>
> >Moreover, I consider the "collective planets" Uranus to
> >Pluto etc. to be children of the Age of Aquarius, as the
> >repeated attempts by Aquarius to help (or "help") humanity
> >by adding new concepts, not fully aware that the room of
> >concepts is (at least in the view of many of the other
> >signs in the zodiac) limited, that you cannot really add
> >new concepts without removing them from other planets or
> >signs or houses etc.
>
> Change happens :-)
>
> >By the way: Why is it that modern psychological astrologers
> >have no problems to write large and detailed books about a
> >single planet (or even not planets like Cheiron or Lilith,
> >etc.), but nobody (except "predictions for 2007" style books)
> >writes a 500 page book about, say, "Taurus", citing all kinds
> >of charts, retelling mythology, etc. Why that bias? Goes as
> >far as some astrologers completely ignoring the richness of
> >the zodiac and its stories (focusing instead on aspects and
> >planets). Too much Aquarius and too little Leo lately,
> >I would say...
>
> Maybe because planets are the driving force of the zodiac, and signs
> are a form of filter?
>
> >Happy New Year to you two, too, and to everybody else!
>
> Thank you!
>
> >)o+
>
> Ken
Why did I write "her" ?
Generally flying too high, feeling to sure, reading too
quickly, overlooking and judging several new ideas simply
as, well, forgotten before you even read them?
In article <1167384181.566587.17150@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>,
"Apollia" <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> >but can you keep up with yourself,..
> >there is a female friend of your's that sure does act as a good
> >cheerleader? red hair? gosh dare we ask,..
>
> Hmmm... nope, no female friends with red hair, though weirdly enough
> I had a dream sometime before reading this post where I was at a
> restaurant with a Wendy's fast-food place sign (even though the
> place wasn't a Wendy's). I wish I had written more down about that
> dream.
>
> The Wendy's logo features a girl with red hair. An example is at the
> upper left of this site: http://www.wendys.com/
>
>
> The only other thing that occurs to me involving a female with red
> hair is my avatar in a massive multiplayer online game Second Life
> (which I haven't been able to even log into since my computer broke
> down).
>
> I always went around with red hair, usually in some strange,
> distinctive hairstyle or other.
>
> (Gosh, maybe you _are_ right about Leo and hair... :-) But
> I've scarcely done creative things at all with my real hair).
>
> Here's a screenshot of "me" in Second Life:
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/apollia/secondlife/me_on_my_new_land_002.jpg
>
>
> What in my chart made you think of a female friend with red hair?
>
> I'm guessing you'll say 11th house with Leo at the cusp (though I'm
> inclined to associate the color red with Mars, not Leo).
I got another, maybe more general reply, about dreams...
As far as I have noticed in dreams, one thing that often happens
is that one dreams of something that has then clearly more to do
with the (mostly relatively immediate) future than with the past.
Freud saw dreams also as fulfillment of wishes, which the can be
in my experience, but I think the collective angle of them, as
expressed by Jung is also important.
I imagine all brains of the world to connected, like a much larger
brain. I imagine that these connections are, by design, I guess,
not accessible to the conscious individual mind. I imagine that
these unconscious connections surface at daytime mostly in the form
of feelings or seldom coincidences, and at night in dreams.
I imagine dreams to be part of collective thinking rather than of
individual thinking. I also imagine that collective brain to have
intentions that show in dreams. For example, if I am thirsty, I
might already imagine myself pouring something to drink into a
glass of water and drinking it, before I do, maybe one of my own
brain cells (or a small group of it) thus gets a premonition of
me drinking the glass of water, before I actually do.
I guess, since obviously hair is a theme for reasons that I still
do not understand well, even though I may sometimes appear to do
so, the "collective unconscious" might be concerned by it, maybe
it (or he/her?) even looked at birth charts, maybe at millions of
them, realizing after many millions of years of chaos that looking
at the stars can give life a structure, or could, if only the
number of possible interpretations and methods and objects in
space would not keep exploding...
)o+
In article <4dadnU3gv4gpcQjYRVnysAA@is.co.za>, Carter <Cr@ters.com>
wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> > There's another object that is literally very red: Sedna.
>
> eeesh, stretching me here,.. i know, i love,... but,.. simple deduction
> is just simpler yeah?,..
>
> simple deduction moon Venus Leo 11th,... female friend, something about
> the hair, very possibly stark red,..!!!
>
> i have no problem with such, often having found Venus in Leo, being that
> flairy girl in your world that has the identity issue,.. hence big hair
> as a key recognisable factor and lead to the bulshy personality,..
>
>
> i would definitely not go as far off to sedna as such to find something
> as simple as that,.. ???!!!
>
> respect,...
>
>
>
> one could say that an introvert,.. on the inside is rather extrovert,..
> for there is an energetic fator there that keeps them introverting,..
> that poassionate introversion of a piscean,.. like a black hole,.. but
> internally,.. this could be a sort of extrovert activity,.. like push
> that vibe,.. i have noticed esp. pisces,.. push that vibe,.. lay the
> guilt trip on,..
>
> on the introverted alley,.. thats pretty extrovert, or audacious, to
> push and push,.. almost coldheartedly so,...
>
> the extroverted introvert
> the introverted extrovert,..
>
> the exploding implosion
> the imploding explosion,...
Looks that now that the time between xmas and new year is almost
over, and Saddam Hussein is dead, the old patterns are reemerging.
Might be time to make back a step out... Or is that also an old
pattern? Anyway, humble messenger of Zeus signing out... ;)
)o+
My usenet posts and other astrology related works
Like in autumn 2006 with my astrology program Delphi for Palm OS
handheld devices, I am now also going to give away my collection
of usenets posts from the years 2002 to 2006 and other documents
that are often related to astrology, all by the end of January 2007.
The documents are in a single zip file (32 MB) at:
http://odyssey-zip.50megs.com/odyssey.zip
This file contains, in my personal view, many original ideas about
various aspects of astrology, and is an interesting mirror of the
times in which they were written. In my personal feeling, it would
be a loss to the world if they were gone. So, I hope that someone
will keep at least some of it.
There is stuff about the new objects (Quaoar, Sedna, Orcus, Eris),
a lot about Mean Black Moon Lilith, interesting takes at the nodes,
and, of course, about the classical planets, signs and houses. It
is all written from the perspective of a physicist, with, I hope,
a quite deep knowledge of psychological astrology. And, as usual
in usenet, a lot of it is quite philosophical and universal.
There are six hard conditions from my side:
- The contents of the subfolder "Delphi" in odyssey.zip can only
be reproduced with Apollia's permission (since she now hosts
Delphi and astrolib for Palm OS).
- My real name (A-l-a-i-n S-t-a-l-d-e-r) does not appear anywhere
in a form that Google or other search engines can index it.*
- I retain full and exclusive rights on two files contained in
odyssey.zip: discoveries.pdf and review.pdf
- The full "odyssey.zip" remains available for download from any
site that hosts excerpts from it.
- If you charge money on the internet for making this material
available, you owe me nothing. If you publish it in another
form (book, movie, DVD, etc.) I would like to get 5% of the
total income. Note that this does NOT cover the two files
mentioned above, for which I retain full and exclusive rights.
- I am listed as author*, with a link (clickable or or) to my
current web site http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
I would prefer the more personal ruminations in my usenet posts,
and otherwise in the material, not to be made public unless the
"better" parts of it are also made public, but that is no hard
condition, i.e. is up to your discretion in the end.
In any case, the file odyssey.zip will be deleted by me from the
above site and from everywhere else that it is located, by the
end of January. This time I will be thorough and complete.
Of course, it is also OK to just keep a private copy...
However, the above offer to publish my stuff does expire by the
end of January. If you wanted to make my stuff available after that
date, conditions would have to be renegotiated.
An alternative would be to publish selected posts by me here or
in another usenet group, which would, of course, also be OK, as
long as the above conditions are met, with the effect that places
like groups.google.com would ensure that a copy is kept. Unless,
of course, someone agrees to host this stuff on a web site.
)o+
* Here is a technical suggestion for hiding my name from search
engines on a web site. Assume you have a site with black ink on
white background. Then you could render my name as follows (using
here [ and ] instead of < and > in case aam's robomoderator would
mind HTML in this post):
Al[font color="#010101"]a[\font]in[font color="#fefefe"]x[\font]Sta[font color="#010101"]l[\font]der
(The trick is to use colors that are almost black and almost white.
Google typically ignores colors and picks up "AlainxStalder" in one
word, while in the past search.msdn.com (any maybe now life.com) did
not ignore color, i.e. picked up the words Al a in x Sta l der.)
: Ok, lets' try this again...
:
: Male
: 1:38 am EST
: Mar 19, 1976
: Catonsville, MD
: 39N15, 76W44
:
: This is my son, who tried to commit suicide a couple nights ago. His sister
: received an e-suicide note from him and so she saw to it he was picked up
: and taken to the hospital, for observation. Currently, he's asleep on my
: couch.
:
: Can anyone see anything in the chart to help this fellow? Advice? A clue?
: For his concerned loved ones or for him to hear or know or remember?
:
: Please help.
:
: -'Thenie
There was a transit of Lilith across his natal Pluto a few days
before that. It is the "unbearable lightness of being" in Libra
that creates the wish for something more heavy (like the next
sign Scorpio, or generally Water after Air in the zodiac).
Of course there were also most factors mentioned in the other
replies. Let me just add two more observations. There is some
balanced undecidedness about Mars and Venus in the chart, with
the MC/IC axis Libra/Aries and the planets in there and then
the northern node in Scorpio, but the part of fortune closely
conjunct the southern node in Taurus, progressed sun about to
leave Aries where it had been almost since birth and to enter
Taurus (or already there, do no remember that detail for sure).
The second thing is something general about this year: The moon
was in Gemini at new year, this apparently makes it important
not to forget to look both ways this year.
Best wishes and good luck,
)o+
Introduction
This text is about a complementary model of the twelve star signs of the
(Western) zodiac. It is fully compatible with contemporary views, but it
also reveals more structure in the zodiac. The model is "elementary" not
mainly in the common sense of the word, but in the sense that it derives
properties of the star signs from transitions between the four elements
Fire, Air, Water and Earth. What exactly that means should become clear
in the following.
Model for Fire Signs
In the model, the three Fire signs (Aries-Leo-Sagittarius) are symbolized
by stages of a fire. Aries is a young fire, with lots of wood, just small
flames, and little smoke, yet. Leo is an older fire with a strong flame,
still ample wood to burn, and producing smoke. Sagittarius is an old fire
that has almost run out of wood, only has small flames and sparks left,
and has gone almost entirely up into smoke.
A bit more abstractly, the element Earth (wood) is transformed by the
power of the element Fire into the element Air (smoke). It is astonishing
how much can be derived in meaning and depth from such a simple model,
as follows.
Central Theme : The Wound
The key to understanding the Fire signs is the central theme of the wound
that is caused by the burning, transforming fire. It is the wound caused
literally and figuratively to the mortal body of every living being. The
human body (element Earth) gets older, starts to hurt more and more, and
in the end it dies. In contrast, knowledge and wisdom acquired during
life can be passed on the later generations using the spoken and written
word (element Air), i.e. these human insights are immortal.
The quest for the Holy Grail is usually associated with Leo. The old king
who is wounded represents the old fire. Perceval, the young hero is the
young fire, who at first lacks the necessary insights (does not ask about
the purpose of the grail), and only after the castle has disappeared,
starts again, learns more, and succeeds through knowledge and compassion
to reach the castle again and to relieve the king of his burden.
The Grail itself is a good motive of this transformation. Its purpose is
not found in the matter (Earth) of the Grail itself, it is rather in the
search for it (Fire), in the learning associated with it, in the wisdom
(Air) acquired while searching for it.
This central theme leads to several concrete predictions about how the
Fire signs react in certain situations. In the following, the focus will
be on Aries (as implied by the title of this post, of course).
Impatience / Impulse to Act
The first tender flames do not cause a big wound or much pain, yet, but
the are an impulse to act. The symbolize a constant impatience and drive
up to higher goals (smoke rising into the sky).
Another way to view the transformation of the Fire signs is evolution.
Animals have smaller minds than human beings, they can learn less during
their lives than human beings. They act more instinctively and less based
on rational considerations than human beings. Aries, as the first Fire
sign, has quite a few of these traits.
Inspiration
However, although a young fire has itself not much transformed into Air
(smoke), yet, the element Air is very important in a young fire, as is
the arrangement (architecture) of the wood (Earth) it starts to burn.
Too much air can blow out a young fire; too little air can make it go out
again quickly. Large pieces of wood do not take fire if the flames that
touch them are too small; a pile of only small twigs burns up quickly.
Take the myth of Jason and his quest for the Golden Fleece, for example.
This piece of mythology is commonly associated with Aries. In the myth it
is Medea who, through her magical powers, helps Jason decisively to get
the Golden Fleece. It is also typicial for Aries to have difficulty to
perceive that fact, because the young fire is looking up and not much
concerned with the air behind him. In the myth, he took another woman,
left Medea and, with her, his magic behind.
Early in the myth, Jason carries an old woman across a river, losing one
of his sandals during that. The old woman reveals herself as the goddess
Hera (the wife of Zeus). So, the lost sandal represents a least these
three things: Part of the body (Earth) lost and compassion gained; the
relation to Pisces (commonly associated with feet), the oldest female
sign in the zodiac; contact with divine influence (goddess) that helps
him evolve.
Secrecy / Fighting / Thrift
Since Aries mostly consists of mortal Earth, he aims often to protect the
little knowledge that he has. Aries often has a secret life that most
others often do not know about. Also, since Aries has so little in his
perception, he is also not much willing to let go of it without a fight.
Leo and especially Sagittarius have already more luxury, because they
have already aquired more knowledge and wisdom, so they are more ready
to compromise and to give away something without immediate compensation.
Literature
The model is fairly new (first published by me in 2002), so there is not
much around about it, yet. For the original text, download
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
unzip it, and read sections 2 and 3 of discoveries.pdf. I hope to present
a more generally accessible and illustrated intruduction in the years to
come on my web site http://www.exactphilosophy.net. Most of the myths
mentioned above are from what is often called "psychological astrology",
most specifically from Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate", chapter 8,
called "Myth and the Zodiac".
Philosophical Background
Aristotle composed the four elements of dry/wet and hot/cold. Fire is
dry+hot, Air is wet+hot, Water is wet+cold, Earth is dry+cold. Thus the
transformation of Fire is Earth getting hot through Fire and then wet to
become Air. See the section "elementary philosophy" on my site for more
fundamental considerations about the classical elements.
About the Author
I am a Swiss physicst (*1966 in Zurich).
)o+
Apollia wrote:
> Hey, here's something that's a bit weird.
>
> On March 7, 2007, at 4:56 PM, 3 posts were made to
> alt.astrology.moderated which are time twins:
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/apollia/456pm.jpg
>
> Maybe it's just some kind of Google Groups glitch, but, I
> thought it was kind of amusing... :-)
[...]
> Actually, it occurs to me that maybe this just happened because
> a moderator happened to approve those messages all in the same
> minute. But could that possibly correlate with anything in
> astrology? ;-)
I would say that generally the assumption in astrology is that
a symbol is a symbol even if the reasons for it are quite trivial.
Here is a more striking example, from the book "Surely you're
joking, Mr. Feynman" (US physicist, Nobel Price Laureate). The
situation is that he is a the hospital where his wife, Arlene,
has just died from tuberculosis (early 1940s):
"Arlene died a few hours after I got there. A nurse came in to
fill out the death certificate, and went out again. I spent a
little more time with my wife. Then I looked at the clock I had
given her seven years before, when she had first become sick
with tuberculosis. It was something which in those days was very
nice: a digital clock whose numbers would change by turning
around mechanically. The clock was very delicate and often
stopped for one reason or another - I had to repair it from time
to time - but I kept it going for all those years. Now, it had
stopped once more - at 9:22, the time on the death certificate!
Arlene had kept this clock by her bedside all the time she was
sick, and now it stopped the moment she died. I can understand
how a person who half believes the possibility of such things,
and who hasn't got a doubting mind - especially in a circumstance
like that - doesn't immediately try to figure out what happened,
but instead explains that no one touched the clock, and there
was no possibility of explanation by normal phenomena. The clock
simply stopped. It would become a dramatic example of these
fantastic phenomena.
I saw that the light in the room was low, and then remembered
that the nurse had picked up the clocked and turned it toward
the light to see the face better. That could easily have
stopped it."
Symbolic content is not generally achieved by miracles, but by
subtle usage of the laws of nature...
)o+
In article <1174858487.082781.284450@l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
"Apollia" <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Hermes, nice to see you again. :-)
Thanks :)
Do not feel like going into the details, is too heavy,
even if it may not appear to be so at the moment.
Some clues: Arline Greenbaum; Patricia Arquette; Google
for "Arlene Feynman 9:22" (without quotes) => russian site
=> more likely 9:22 PM than AM, but not sure; most likely
died 16 June 1945, despite contradictory online accounts,
was one week before first nuclear tests, trinity 16 July;
who's car, two hitchhikers, section 3.15 in discoveries.pdf
(written shortly after 9/11, pi = ca. 3.14; see 3.14, too)
....
)o+
> On Mar 23, 12:24 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > Apollia wrote:
> > > Hey, here's something that's a bit weird.
> >
> > > On March 7, 2007, at 4:56 PM, 3 posts were made to
> > > alt.astrology.moderated which are time twins:
> >
> > >http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/apollia/456pm.jpg
> >
> > > Maybe it's just some kind of Google Groups glitch, but, I
> > > thought it was kind of amusing... :-)
> > [...]
> > > Actually, it occurs to me that maybe this just happened because
> > > a moderator happened to approve those messages all in the same
> > > minute. But could that possibly correlate with anything in
> > > astrology? ;-)
> >
> > I would say that generally the assumption in astrology is that
> > a symbol is a symbol even if the reasons for it are quite trivial.
>
> Well-put... :-)
>
> > Here is a more striking example, from the book "Surely you're
> > joking, Mr. Feynman" (US physicist, Nobel Price Laureate). The
> > situation is that he is a the hospital where his wife, Arlene,
> > has just died from tuberculosis (early 1940s):
> >
> > "Arlene died a few hours after I got there. A nurse came in to
> > fill out the death certificate, and went out again. I spent a
> > little more time with my wife. Then I looked at the clock I had
> > given her seven years before, when she had first become sick
> > with tuberculosis. It was something which in those days was very
> > nice: a digital clock whose numbers would change by turning
> > around mechanically. The clock was very delicate and often
> > stopped for one reason or another - I had to repair it from time
> > to time - but I kept it going for all those years. Now, it had
> > stopped once more - at 9:22, the time on the death certificate!
> >
> > Arlene had kept this clock by her bedside all the time she was
> > sick, and now it stopped the moment she died. I can understand
> > how a person who half believes the possibility of such things,
> > and who hasn't got a doubting mind - especially in a circumstance
> > like that - doesn't immediately try to figure out what happened,
> > but instead explains that no one touched the clock, and there
> > was no possibility of explanation by normal phenomena. The clock
> > simply stopped. It would become a dramatic example of these
> > fantastic phenomena.
> >
> > I saw that the light in the room was low, and then remembered
> > that the nurse had picked up the clocked and turned it toward
> > the light to see the face better. That could easily have
> > stopped it."
>
> Very interesting. I wonder if there's anything notable in the
> astrological chart for that moment.
>
> http://www.brew-wood.co.uk/physics/feynman.htm
> This page mentions that Arlene was in a hospital in Albuquerque.
>
> (That page also mentions someone's plausible non-supernatural
> explanation for this event:
> http://www.brew-wood.co.uk/physics/feynman.htm#clock )
>
>
> http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Feynman&GRid=7294111&
> This page states her date of death was June 16, 1945. Too bad
> it doesn't state her birthdate as well.
>
>
> I haven't been able to find out on the web whether the time of
> death was in the morning or the evening, so, I'll just do both
> charts:
>
>
> -qa June 16 1945 9:22 MDT 106:39W 35:05N
> Morning.
>
> +-------<11> 5Gem34----<10> 0Tau30-----<9>28Pis24-----------+
> | Ura 13Gem58 | Mar 3Tau48 | | |
> | Sun 25Gem05 | Ven 9Tau40 | | |
> | Mer 25Gem53 | | | |
> | | | | |
> <12> 9Can12----|-----------------------------|----- 1Pis33<8>
> | Nod 9Can59r | | |
> | Sat 11Can46 | Astrolog 5.40 chart | |
> | Plu 8Leo36 | Sat Jun 16 1945 9:22am | |
> | Jun 9Leo00 | ST -06:00, 106:39W 35:05N | |
> <1> 9Leo07-----| UT: 15:22, Sid.T: 1:53 |----- 9Aqu07<7>
> | | Placidus Houses | |
> | | Tropical / Geocentric | |
> | | Julian Day = 2431623.1403 | |
> | | | |
> <2> 1Vir33-----|-----------------------------|----- 9Cap12<6>
> | Moo 14Vir32 | Nep 3Lib39 | | |
> | Jup 19Vir06 | Ves 11Lib18 | | |
> | Pal 24Vir12 | Lil 24Lib02 | | |
> | Chi 27Vir25 | Cer 24Lib52 | For 28Lib34 | Ver 21Sag34 |
> +-----------28Vir24<3>----- 0Sco30<4>----- 5Sag34<5>--------+
>
>
> -qa June 16 1945 21:22 MDT 106:39W 35:05N
> Evening.
>
> +-------<11>26Sco25----<10> 1Sco01-----<9>28Vir38-----------+
> | | For 15Lib33 | Cer 24Lib54 | Chi 27Vir26 |
> | | | Lil 24Lib05 | Pal 24Vir19 |
> | | | Ves 11Lib24 | Moo 20Vir36 |
> | | | Nep 3Lib39 | Jup 19Vir08 |
> <12>18Sag22----|-----------------------------|-----19Leo11<8>
> | | | Ver 19Leo04 |
> | | Astrolog 5.40 chart | Jun 9Leo13 |
> | | Sat Jun 16 1945 9:22pm | Plu 8Leo36 |
> | | ST -06:00, 106:39W 35:05N | Sat 11Can50 |
> <1>10Cap35-----| UT: 3:22, Sid.T: 13:55 |-----10Can35<7>
> | | Placidus Houses | |
> | | Tropical / Geocentric | Nod 9Can57r |
> | | Julian Day = 2431623.6403 | Mer 26Gem59 |
> | | | Sun 25Gem34 |
> <2>19Aqu11-----|-----------------------------|-----18Gem22<6>
> | | | | |
> | | | | |
> | | | Ven 10Tau07 | |
> | | | Mar 4Tau10 | Ura 13Gem59 |
> +-----------28Pis38<3>----- 1Tau01<4>-----26Tau25<5>--------+
>
>
> Anyone have any comments?
>
> Kind of interesting that Saturn is conjunct the descendant of
> the evening chart, given that one of the most prominent features
> of that anecdote is that the clock was stopped at that moment.
> Oh, and Capricorn (Saturn's sign) is the rising sign.
>
> Saturn is associated with time, clocks, as well as things being
> stopped.
>
> Based on the possible symbolic appropriateness of this chart,
> I'll recklessly make an incredibly daring and unlikely (just
> kidding :-) ) 50/50 guess, and guess that this event took place
> in the evening rather than the morning.
>
> > Symbolic content is not generally achieved by miracles, but by
> > subtle usage of the laws of nature...
> >
> > )o+
>
> Yes, seems quite possible...
>
> By the way, I actually was reading the book "Miracles: Inviting
> the Extraordinary Into Your Life" by Richard Webster around the
> moment your post made it onto the newsgroup.
>
> I first saw your reply only about an hour after it made it onto
> the newsgroup, and, shortly before I got on the internet and
> glanced at aamod, I had been reading that book off and on for
> about an hour and a half... :-)
>
> Which made your mention of miracles seem like an interesting
> coincidence... :-)
>
> I hope all is well with you.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> ----
>
> Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
In article <1175168216.281689.250440@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"Candy West" <rtrrt@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:
> Venus in Hydra 2007
>
> Copyright (c) 2007 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved.
> http://www.lulu.com/astrology
>
> Venus in Hydra? Yes, to the amazement of astrologers from India to the
> U.S.A., Venus enters Hydra in the year 2007. The advent of the
> scientific zodiac makes up for any error as made by astrologers in the
> past 3000 years. All calculations are NASA compatible.
>
> * Venus in Hydra is one of the 21 zodiacal constellations as adopted
> by Venus.
> * Does it mean that there are 21 zodiacal constellations in all?
> * Moon in Auriga has been proposed for the 22nd zodiacal position.
> * The zodiac has 22 IAU constellations.
Ever tried to map these constellations to tarot's major arcana ?
)o+
> * This year Jupiter is in Ophiuchus. Jupiter e.g. never enters Hydra
> or Auriga.
> * The planets enter into what we could call special zodiacal stations
> in a fairly irregular fashion. Venus is rarely positioned in Hydra and
> still more rarely in Pegasus.
> * There are 16 eastern ascendants at the resent epoch.
> * The ascendant of the U.S.A. is Serpens Cauda, the tail of the
> snake.
> * Pluto transits Serpens Cauda and Ophiuchus in the year 2006.
> * Alice has been born in August 2004 with Moon in Cetus, Hydra
> ascending, Mercury in Sextans, Venus in Orion, Juno in Scutum and of
> course Pluto in Serpens Cauda.
> * Do the dwarf planets count? Of course they do. Their legacies count
> as N2, P, G, E and X zodiacs. Eris has inherited the experimental X
> zodiac since Aug 1st 2005.
> * Pluto never enters Aries or Pisces. There is no such thing as "Pluto
> in Aries".
> * Enter an amazing world of true horoscopes through http://www.lulu.com/astrology
> * And close the door behind as your true horoscope adds spice to your
> real life!
>
> Klaudio Zic
>
>
> An Astrological Renaissance
>
> Copyright (c) 2007 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved.
> http://www.lulu.com/astrology
>
> The zodiac in general use with amateurs was meant for fun and
> amusement, as it is clear that the universe is by far more complex
> than the 12 sign model that we find in the newspapers. Horoscopes are
> usually based on a flat model of the solar system with equally
> distributed signs of the zodiac in pizza-cut fashion. It is clear that
> cutting down a complex universe to the size of a flat cake has immense
> didactic importance but cannot possibly account for genuine astronomic
> calculation. NASA will probably never use astrological programs to
> determine the real positions of the planets. Why is that so? The truth
> is very simple as well as utterly shocking for the general public. All
> astrological calculations have been miscalculation for the past 3000
> years. How is that possible? It is easy to prove large errors and
> misconception as soon as one accepts NASA as authority. Astrologers
> have transcendental problems in accepting astronomic authority. They
> had to invent a false universe of their own in order to persuade their
> clients with planetary positions that were never there. Among the
> hilarious by-products of a superstitious mind we find Aries ascending
> where Aries cannot possibly rise in due east with "Pluto in Aries"
> which is an impossible position. People with Sun in Libra are told
> they are "Sagittarius". Pisces ascending is miscalculated as
> "Capricorn rising". While the 12 sign model may be excellent in
> spreading basic astrological principles it nevertheless causes more
> chaos than necessary for any mild superstition in that it never
> informs the user about the true sun sign at all.
>
> The result of misidentification is schizophrenia on planetary level as
> people develop false personalities, being forced into mental shackles
> for a lifetime. A superstitious person lives the life of another
> according to false sun signs, etceteras. Alice is a reserved
> wondergirl born in August 2004 with Moon in Cetus, Hydra ascending,
> Mercury in Sextans, Venus in Orion, Juno in Scutum and Pluto in
> Serpens Cauda. She would be completely misjudged in character if it
> were not for scientific astrology in action.
>
> What is at the core of the long miscalculation thread? Humans have two
> minds of which only one is their own. This true mind is mostly unknown
> to man. The so-called psyche is something to discard rather than study
> as the psyche cannot possibly study itself Freud could not know this
> simple fact. The nature of false ego is akin to the devil in
> stupidity, asinine acceptance of false models as well as greed. The
> default mind model did not change since the fall of Adam. In a world
> ruled by false values the zodiac has somehow hidden itself from the
> unworthy. The current IAU standards dictate a zodiac made of 22 IAU
> constellations.
>
> Klaudio Zic
>
> Vivian Robson
> An example in horoscope layout
>
> Copyright (c) 2007 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved.
> http://www.lulu.com/astrology
>
> Introduction
>
> Before we define the horoscope of Vivian Robson we must assume that
> astrologers at his time of curse did not deal with astronomic
> observation, such a practice being alien to most astrologers after and
> even prior to Hipparchus. At the time astrologers could not determine
> the rising constellations much as they were quite unaware of the
> nature of the zodiac. There is still a popular belief that the "12
> zodiacal constellations rise in the east", however this will soon
> appear as nonsense to any rational being since the zodiac clearly has
> 22 constellations with 16 separate constellations rising in due east
> at the present epoch as well as at the time Vivian Robson was born.
> Since the heavenly vault slowly rotates doe to the effect of
> precession, the ascendants are never the same from epoch to epoch as
> we have largely proven for the e.g. Egyptian Empire. Moreover the
> meridian constellations are of course never the same as the ascending
> constellations. Apart for the fact that this is trivial stuff for the
> astronomers, it is our duty to inform the incipient astrologer about
> the basic stellar soup one wil deal with in order to determine the
> scientifically correct horoscope for his client much as today our
> client is Vivian Robson.
>
> Sextans Ascending
>
> Vivian Robson has Sextans ascending in his horoscope. Sextans is the
> ascendant of Vatican, a little constellation rising on the Hydra's
> back. In summer 2007 Venus enters Sextans before its Hydra transit. In
> the year 1967 Venus spent an exceptionally long sojourn in Sextans.
> Venus in Sextans is not such a rare position of Venus at all.
>
> Mars in Ophiuchus
>
> This peculiar but nevertheless common zodiacal position of Mars is the
> raison d'?tre for Vivian Robson as concern scientific astrology. The
> character is calm and when fiery it is well balanced. Hour of solitude
> make for the excellent practice in theurgy. Invisible inorganic beings
> make excellent company as affecting the 1st and 4th cakra. The solar
> cakra is probably emanating extra vitality and personal power as our
> analysis immediately makes us turn our heads towards Vivian's taurine
> Sun.
>
> As in the year 2007 Jupiter is in the messianic Ophiuchus, it triggers
> Vivian's Mars by transit. Vivian had sheer good luck since we came
> across his (not her!) data by sheer chance. It might be of some
> importance that the pillar of Anglo-Saxon astrology has been chosen to
> represent scientific astrology in the vigil of the entry of Venus in
> Hydra.
>
> Why is this Horoscope Different
>
> What makes the difference between scientific astrology and popular
> superstition? Scientific astrology peruses the real sky above
> Birmingham thus offering a broader perspective as well as accurate
> placement of the planets and horizon.
>
> What is the meaning of the Transneptunian Objects?
> Horoscope Guidelines
>
> * Ixion is with Asbolus in Lynx. This peculiar constellation forms the
> body of the "X zodiac" as measured for 2003 UB313 now dwarf planet
> Eris and published by the writer Klaudio Zic on Aug 1st 2005. As
> concern the "X zodiac" we could call it the zodiac of Eris. At the
> discovery time it was generally assumed that, having a new planet we
> established a new zodiac, much as at the time when Pluto was
> discovered as new planet it brought up several new constellations
> (e.g. Eridanus) along.
> * Nowadays we have no doubt as to the number of zodiacal
> constellations being 22.
> * The descendant is Aquarius.
> * Logos is with Sedna and Pholus in Cetus. Pholus is in rigor of terms
> near the actual position of Eris in Cetus. 2005 FY5 is with Sekhmet in
> Eridanus.
> * The egg shaped giant transneptunian object 2003 EL61 is in Orion
> below the Pi stars.
> * Pluto is about to enter Orion from Taurus. 2000 JZ15, Mercury, the
> Sun and Neptune are in Taurus.
> * Venus is at the Orion Stargate. This does not mean that Venus is in
> Orion, which would be a welcome position! Cruithne hovers above Venus
> in zodiacal Auriga.
> * 2002 MS4 is in Hydra. This Masonic transneptunian is related to
> Sextans. We have left the secondary directions of Sextans for the
> advanced study of our custom clients.
> * Quaoar is with Chiron at the bottom of Gemini. Chiron is often a
> very helpful centaur as establishing its own dynamics with the large
> transneptunian objects. We have e.g. found the Eris - Chiron dynamics
> very helpful in determining crime escalation times.
>
> ( April 2007 Editorial preview )
>
> Klaudio Zic
>
> Thursday, March 15, 2007 20:24:15 CET Venice, Italy
>
> A Joyful Site indeed
>
> Copyright (c) 2007 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved.
> http://www.lulu.com/astrology
>
> Yes we reformed the zodiac and we got new ascendants for you but it
> was touch and go comparing to our matrix hacking system of instant
> magick. It is easy to scan the matrix as everyone can tell when is a
> peculiar event going to happen. Even a modestly intelligent person can
> be taught to calculate the date of anyone's marriage by heart in
> minutes. Such training should not last more than 20 minutes average.
> See? It is easy to predict even with astrology. But is it too easy to
> UNPREDICT? The recreation of one's present, past and future is the
> business of advanced clearing techniques like O5 and the Personal
> cO5mic Secretary. Sit back and place your order with the universe at
> hand as you watch your optimized wish list materializing right before
> your eyes and nose in real time. The carrot is optimal.
>
> Did you suffer from bad astrology lately?
> You of course did.
> Turn that really bad transiting frog into prince charming!
>
> The best our site is happy to offer can be summarized as follow.
>
> * Real Time Reality Rendering Tools - Instant Magick for You!
> * 22/16 Scientific Astrology System
>
> Joyful as it can be since it is emanating the right rays at the right
> outer time and space for the lucky weasel in you. You know you can
> make it! Think about it, Guinea! If a mere wop can make it how much
> more omnipotence is at the fingertips of a dago! Lick that stony
> bridge with its eternal salt while you are downloading our Venetkian
> peripatetic O5 catalogue. What does it all means? It means Italy,
> precisely Venice is the source of inspiration for whatever instant
> magick you want to perform. All majik is yours on the site for free
> download with scores of RTRRT manuals to chose from. RTRRT means real
> time reality rendering tools that in turn stands for instant magick.
> Yes we invented instant magick. All started with a traditional Tibetan
> discreation formula and there you have it. Even you can perform
> instant magick from the moment you unpack one of our many RTRRT
> manuals. Real time majik will jump into your lap with the scent of the
> Venice lagoon and perhaps some alchemical patina.
>
> It seems we never stop figuring out new ways to discreate the stalled
> matrix of events. Our new projects include:
>
> * Quantum Astrology
> * New Egyptian Imperial Magick
>
> In other words we are at once reestablishing the old and fascinating
> order of the pyramids while aligning it to whatever happens on the
> subatomic level. A probable issue is a comprehensive blend of modern
> but usable old Egyptian magick with the galactic upgrade of old
> Egyptian astrology. By "old" we mean 3500 BC and older (much older!).
>
>
>
> Klaudio Zic
>
> Tuesday, March 27, 2007 20:54:22 CET Serenixima
>
> The author wants to thank Cocteau Twins for inspiration during the
> writing of this Dadaist essay.
>
>
> Copyright (c) 2007 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved worldwide.
> Redistribution of this file in any form is violation of the Copyright
> Law.
> The material has been previously published and is available through
> web site http://www.lulu.com/astrology
> Copyright (c) 2007 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No part of
> this material may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any
> means, electronic or otherwise, for commercial purposes, without the
> written permission of the author, except when permitted by law.
>
> Our management disclaims any outer comments that could have been made
> as concern the 16/22 Astrology System, Eris and the dwarf planets, or
> the RTRRT as ours. Only the copyrighted material by http://www.lulu.com/astrology
> is authoritative as concern zodiacal reformation, the precessed
> ascendant and instant reality rendering methods.
'Thenie wrote:
: I am collecting information, no worries on that, and I have known for over
: half of his life that I am exactly NOT the person that he will let help him
: through his issues.
:
: I have known since he was a baby that he was 'different' than other people,
: in his reasoning and his development. Some of this results in strengths
: (art prodigy, music prodigy, high IQ, amazing insights) and some results in
: deficits (poor social skills, paranoia, single-minded obsessions). I have
: all the documentation of all the psychological evaluations, neurological
: tests, and problems at school.
:
: What I was hoping for is some new information to help me with this
: situation, some idea of what is currently going on and what is being
: stimulated in his chart. I have done exhaustive study of him (medically,
: psychologically, neurologically, bio-chemically, genetically,
: astrologically, sociologically, etc) and of every possible consideration of
: what his condition might be and how to best provide him with the skills and
: information to live his life successfully. No two doctors have come up with
: the same diagnosis, so he remains undiagnosed and therefore without
: treatment. He received counselling through his adolescence, but I don't
: know how effective that was.
Hi 'Thenie,
During your first posts to aam, about a year ago or so, I had
a very strong feeling of a very strong bias, of a an inability
to see certain things from more than one side (and I said so,
in a reply then). Accordingly, the rest of my post might be a
bit biased too, giving me a "devil's advocate" appearance...
Such a strong bias in women is not too unusual. Sometimes it
is possible that women learn to get a glimpse of the other
side, and sometimes it is possible that they at least realize
that there is another side and that they are typically biased.
But also not too seldom, even that is not possible, and the
most that can be achieved in such cases is to mix up something
unconsciously that leads then still to different approaches to
the problems without revealing in any way (not even to herself)
the reasons.
In mythology, I am most reminded of the relation between Hera
(the wife of Zeus) and her son Hephaestus (the lame smith god
married to Aphrodite, goddess of love).
For example:
"To Hera and Zeus were born the deities Ares, Hephaestus, and Hebe, though some
say that Ares and this twin-sister Eris were conceived when Hera touched a
certain flower, and Hebe, when she touched a lettuce, and that Hephaistos also
was her parthenogenous child - a wonder which he would not believe until he
had imprisoned her in a mechanical chair with arms that folded about the sitter,
thus forcing her to swear by the River Styx that she did not lie."
(Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 12.c)
"Hephaestus, the Smith-god, was so weakly at birth that his disgusted mother,
Hera, dropped him from the height of Olympus, to rid herself of the
embarassment that hus pitiful appearance caused her. He survived this
misadventure, however, without bodily damage, because he fell into the sea,
where Thetis and Eurynome were at hand to rescue him. These gentle godesses
kept him with them in an underwater grotto, where he set up his first smithy
and rewarded their kindness by making them all sorts of ornamental and
useful objects." (23.a)
After Hera found out, "At once she fetched Hephaestus back to Olympus, where
she set him up in a much finer smithy, with twenty bellows working day and
night, made much of himk, and arranged that he should marry Aphrodite." (23.a)
"Hephaestus became so far reconciled with Hera that he dared reproach Zeus
himself for hanging her by the wrists from Heaven when she rebelled against
him. But silence would have been wiser, because angry Zeus only heaved him
down from Olympus a second time. He was one day falling. On striking the earth
[...] he broke both legs [...] Afterwards pardoned and restored to Olympos he
could walk only with golden leg-supports." (23.b)
"Hephaestus is ugly and ill-tempered, but has great power in his arms and
shoulders, and all of his work is of matchless skill." (23.c)
Some asymmetries that jumped into my eyes:
You quite freely published your son's birth data, but not
yours. On top of that, I guess it is safe to assume that
you did not ask him for permission...
When mothers worry too much about a child and try to get
mixed in too much, it is usually the father who holds the
mother back a bit, tells her to let him lead his own life
and provides a few creative and maybe a bit more abstract
and detached alternatives about how to approach things
(male elements Fire and Air).
Where's the father here ? His birth data ?
(And: Yours ? Your daugthers ? Not that you should publish
it all here, not necessarily, but these charts should not
be out of the equation.)
(Saturn is currently in Leo; Liz Greene in "The Astrology
of Fate" (she has Saturn in Leo) puts a lot of emphasis on
the theme of the missing father and the quest for the Holy
Grail in her section about Leo in that book. Saturn will
already leave Leo sometime this summer.)
The development of child prodigies is in my view always a
bit disturbed, if not even tragic. Their special abilities
seem very often to result from using a larger part of the
brain than usual for the purpose of storing relatively simply
structured data, but lots of it, like the complete works of
Mozart etc., or allowing to perform very quick calculations
in the mind due to using much more brain cells in parallel
than usual.
However, what is missing then is other abilities that get too
little room in the brain, things like the social abilities that
you mentioned, and often also there has been a lack of time to
develop these abilities, because other things came so early.
Difficult to say how to handle that.
Currently the northern lunar node is in the middle of Pisces.
Synthesis and faith, but not detailed analysis is ultimatively
the path to go. Such detailed analysis into your son's life
("medically, psychologically, neurologically, bio-chemically,
genetically, astrologically, sociologically, etc") seems to be
overkill in these times, and even generally it is questionable
to do so, especially it seems no longer a good approach now,
with a son that is more than 30 years old, despite all motherly
love. Again, where is the father ?
His sun is at the end of Pisces. No wonder detailed analysis
leads to nothing. At the end of the cycle, everything that
exists and can be imagined is there, and still only just losely
connected to itself. Also it suggests that what others do around
him has very well an effect on how he feels. Even if you do not
discuss things directly and openly with him, it can have a strong
effect. Especially in these times with Uranus in Pisces, I often
have the feeling that much of what I do is mirrored by the world
around me. Whenever I develop much of activity into a particular
direction, it is mirrored by much of the same from people I know
or do not know. That explains already part of how and why Pisces
remain often so passive.
Also these planets in Pisces can create a certain death drive.
If that is without deeper reasons, it might just as well pass.
Mars will move out of Pisces already in May, the lunar nodes
and Uranus obviously only later.
I have to ask: Since these things come up with a tPluto-sun
square, it might be that there is a strong feeling of guilt
in the family, a family curse, maybe dating generations back
that your son might feel that he could remedy by ultimate
sacrifice (emphasised by the natal n.node in Scorpio etc.).
If that is the case, I guess it would be favorable to search
for a way to do this rather in smaller and less fatal steps,
however difficult that may be in practice.
Anyway, good luck to you, your son and the rest of your family,
)o+
PS: This is not to mean not to take care of personal physical
protection, not at all. As I said, this post was naturally a
bit biased, emphasising different angles than so far...
Todd Carnes wrote:
: Welcome back, Hermes! :)
Thanks! :)
Best wishes, )o+
'Thenie wrote:
: He has no brother, but he has a sister 12 years his junior, whom he
: professes great love, though he did not interact much with her growing up
: (and left living with her when they were 17 and 5 respectively).
Here's a clip from the movie "Little Miss Sunshine":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIywXg5T8x8
)o+
exactphilosophy.net
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Presents a unique idea about how to view the ancient greek
elements in terms of immediate perception of space, time,
and free will / fate. That idea emerged in spring 2004, in
the aftermath of me publishing some also quite unique ideas
about how astrology, telepathy, precognition, divination,
etc. might work, and a concrete simple model of the zodiac.
I have recently reduced the site to the max, focusing only
on that one idea, and in the process of almost completely
detaching from astrology. That is now complete.
To aat, who was wise enough to know when to stop.
I:I :I:
Alain
In article <jYc_h.7152$dy2.6085@trndny01>,
"'Thenie" <mtn_girl@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Ms.Maleficent" wrote...
> > "'Thenie" wrote...
> > > "Hermes" wrote...
> > >> 'Thenie wrote:
> > >> : He has no brother, but he has a sister 12 years his junior, whom he
> > >> : professes great love, though he did not interact much with her
> growing
> > > up
> > >> : (and left living with her when they were 17 and 5 respectively).
> > >>
> > >> Here's a clip from the movie "Little Miss Sunshine":
> > >>
> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIywXg5T8x8
> > >
> > > I saw the original movie; what's your point?
> > >
> > Maybe that sometimes, little sisters can have a much bigger effect than we
> > imagine?
>
> Except that it seems to have worked in reverse...
>
> After a year or more's contact with her brother (with it kept secret from
> me, though I kept encouraging her to get back in contact with him), my
> daughter suddenly wanted me not to contact her. I have friends who have
> known us since she was in day care who are shocked that such a close bond as
> she and I had has so suddenly and completely terminated, and without any
> explanation.
>
> -'Thenie
My first reply of yesterday afternoon did not get
through, might have been felt to be formulated a bit
too harshly at one place.
Just one fact for the record, since the clip may not
be available any more in the future: It is the scene
where the son finds out that he is color blind and
that he can thus never become a jet pilot. The clip
ends after they get back into the bus and move on.
At no point in the clip is there direct communication
between mother and daughter. The daughter has the key
role of resolving some deep family issues because she
is the fourth member of the family as exposed in some
earlier posts here, like one in reply of chompergirls
search for a deed, and also in odyssey.zip on my site.
The daughter is 1/7 (pi-3) part of the same circle,
the same fate, as father, mother and the first child,
but also 6/7 her own kind, thus it is unlikely that
she will devote more than about 1/7 of her time and
energy to family matters, but she will also use this
1/7 quite effectively, even if what she does might
seem unsuitable in the eyes of the observers, like
the "little miss sunshine" seemed to wear unsuitable
shoes in the clip.
Concerning "the fourth is different", see also what
Liz Greene writes in "The Astrology in Fate" about it,
also briefly retelling a fairy tale. In more general
terms, the story and dream around page 141 (there is
as far as I know only one edition of the book so far,
so this is specific enough).
--
X-No-Archive: Yes
In article <gakm339hv7q0n3vlv488ivqsmsh3ah85ha@4ax.com>,
Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2007 01:03:07 -0500, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <jYc_h.7152$dy2.6085@trndny01>,
> > "'Thenie" <mtn_girl@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> "Ms.Maleficent" wrote...
> >> > "'Thenie" wrote...
> >> > > "Hermes" wrote...
> >> > >> 'Thenie wrote:
> >> > >> : He has no brother, but he has a sister 12 years his junior, whom he
> >> > >> : professes great love, though he did not interact much with her
> >> growing
> >> > > up
> >> > >> : (and left living with her when they were 17 and 5 respectively).
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Here's a clip from the movie "Little Miss Sunshine":
> >> > >>
> >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIywXg5T8x8
> >> > >
> >> > > I saw the original movie; what's your point?
> >> > >
> >> > Maybe that sometimes, little sisters can have a much bigger effect than we
> >> > imagine?
> >>
> >> Except that it seems to have worked in reverse...
> >>
> >> After a year or more's contact with her brother (with it kept secret from
> >> me, though I kept encouraging her to get back in contact with him), my
> >> daughter suddenly wanted me not to contact her. I have friends who have
> >> known us since she was in day care who are shocked that such a close bond as
> >> she and I had has so suddenly and completely terminated, and without any
> >> explanation.
> >>
> >> -'Thenie
> >
> >My first reply of yesterday afternoon did not get
> >through, might have been felt to be formulated a bit
> >too harshly at one place.
> >
> >Just one fact for the record, since the clip may not
> >be available any more in the future: It is the scene
> >where the son finds out that he is color blind and
> >that he can thus never become a jet pilot. The clip
> >ends after they get back into the bus and move on.
> >
> >At no point in the clip is there direct communication
> >between mother and daughter. The daughter has the key
> >role of resolving some deep family issues because she
> >is the fourth member of the family as exposed in some
> >earlier posts here, like one in reply of chompergirls
> >search for a deed, and also in odyssey.zip on my site.
> >
> >The daughter is 1/7 (pi-3) part of the same circle,
> >the same fate, as father, mother and the first child,
> >but also 6/7 her own kind, thus it is unlikely that
> >she will devote more than about 1/7 of her time and
> >energy to family matters, but she will also use this
> >1/7 quite effectively, even if what she does might
> >seem unsuitable in the eyes of the observers, like
> >the "little miss sunshine" seemed to wear unsuitable
> >shoes in the clip.
> >
> >Concerning "the fourth is different", see also what
> >Liz Greene writes in "The Astrology in Fate" about it,
> >also briefly retelling a fairy tale. In more general
> >terms, the story and dream around page 141 (there is
> >as far as I know only one edition of the book so far,
> >so this is specific enough).
>
> Thank you, Hermes; I'm so glad you posted this because it really sheds
> a lot of light on what you'd meant when you referred to that movie,
> which I've never seen, myself.
>
> Gail
Thanks, too. :)
But you are aware that in the original post I simply
provided a link to the video clip (the very excerpt
from the movie that I think fits quite well and does
so with more than just one possible interpretation) ?
This post is based on this simple assumption:
People that are close can feel each other directly,
even if they do not see, hear, smell, each other,
and (to some degree) even if they are miles apart.
That assumption, although (like astrology) at odds
with contemporary wisdom in the exact sciences, is
one that is often made implicitly in everyday life:
- If your lover is out of the house, does the felt
connection suddenly disappear ? Is all that remains
of your lover once she/he leaves the house just a
bleak memory ? Could you not tell if something did
happen to her/him once she/he left the house ? Would
there be no difference if suddenly a heavy accident
or even death occurred ?
- Or what about the same with mother and child, etc.?
Is there no real connection, is it just a naive wish
of being connected, just something we would like to
believe ? Just a naive superstition (like astrology)
in the eyes of modern science ?
- More astrologically formulated, feelings are about
the element Water, i.e. about Cancer, Scorpio and
Pisces. Do feelings remain in the "crab's shell" or
are they universally connected (Pisces) ? Probably
a bit of both, one would assume (Scorpio)...
But let me take a step back and simply assume that
people can feel each other directly (without a need
to communicate explicitly via speech, vision, etc.),
and see where that would lead...
This means simply that people's brains are connected,
just like individual brain cells in people's brains
are connected to each other. In other words, the brains
of all people form a large brain, an entity of its own,
with not unlikely its own intentions and feelings, etc.
But that is maybe a bit too simplistic: Any individual
is mostly closest to just a few people, family, lover,
close friends, then colleagues, casual acquaintances,
and so on. So, you would expect not to have just one
large "megabrain", but different "clusters" at different
length scales. So there would often be a "family brain",
composed essentially of the members of the family. Also,
one could assume that certain interest groups, like, say,
even a usenet newsgroup, could develop its own identity,
with its own intentions, feelings, even fate.
That is, of course, a concept that is not so unfamiliar
to astrologers. Any entity like a family or a newsgroup
has some kind of creation/foundation moment that (via
the chart for that moment) gives that unity an individual
soul and an individual fate (via planets at birth, and
then transits, synastry, and so on).
I will come back to astrology in a moment, but let me
think the consequences of people feeling each other
directly a bit further...
Any such "larger brain" composed of many people's brains
would know more things than each individual that is part
of it. Some private thoughts of members of your family,
for example, would not be available directly to yourself,
but would be to the "family brain" as a whole. And, if
you would somehow touch a theme that stirs up a "family
secret", you would still feel something, maybe shy away
from it, maybe get angry, etc.
Now, the "family brain" might also have intentions that
you are not aware of, maybe even intentions that are more
complex than you can understand with your little single
person brain. (Imagine maybe ants. They can solve quite
complex tasks as a group, but the individual ants have
no chance at all to understand these group purposes.)
Such collective intentions can appear as *precognition*
to individuals. For example, two "family brains" might be
in contact and might arrange some meetings between some
members of the family. For example, a guy and a gal could
meet "by chance" somewhere in the middle of town, so that
the meeting would appear like "fate" to them, and via
emotional feedback from their environments, they would
maybe think that it "was meant to be".
And, in a way they would be right!
That is, if you count family (or other group's) intentions
as a miniaturized, limited form of fate.
Face it: You can sometimes do things that you do not feel
like doing for some time, but mostly you do what feels
good and try to avoid what feels bad. ;)
Thus, if feelings are not local, but directly influenced
by what others feel about what you do, what you end up
doing is quite heavily influenced by what others feel and
want. Of course, that can be somewhat schizophrenically
turned around, too: The family could want you to be sort
of an individualistic person who strives away from how
things are usually handled in the family, i.e. as it often
is with feelings, different and even opposite trends could
mix up and result in some quite ambivalent situations. For
example, the strict self-control of a Capricorn is often
fueled by fun derived on the inside (i.e. via feedback from
the family etc.), from not doing what one likes. (This is
what Freud called "Triebumkehr", reversal of instinctive
drives).
So, thus far the simple idea explains things that resemble
"telepathy", "precognition" and even "fate".
Let me add two more or so before returning to astrology.
Why stop at humanity ? People often also feel quite a bit
connected to their pets. Why not include also animals and
plants into the picture ? Living and loving (feeling) are
etymologically so close that there might be more to it
than just mere superstition (like astrology in the eyes of
contemporary science). And then, maybe all of nature is
alive to some degree as often assumed in the past, and
maybe even these connections reach out into space...
Now, with that picture, assume you take a few yarrow sticks
and toss them to do some "divination", to query the ancient
Chinese oracle "I Ching". The results are often in the eyes
of the querent more than just "chance" or a "random result",
but a meaningful description of the situation at hand.
What if the result is influenced directly by feelings, by
your feelings and by the feelings of people close to you,
and extending to humanity, living beings, nature at large ?
I cannot get much into quantum mechanics here, but what is
an integral component of quantum mechanics is that what
happens, what is measured (like when tossing yarrow sticks)
is fundamentally indeterminate (with qualifications that
would lead too far here), has some element of "chance" or
"randomness" in it that is not explainable by lack of
knowledge of an internal clockwork. But, if that element is
covered by individual and collective intentions and feelings,
it would become clear why the querying the I Ching or other
divinations techniques just "work", as follows.
The result of "divination" would then simply be the sum of
all influences, with individual and close groups having often
more influence (depending also somewhat on the question asked).
Now, the word "divination" hints also at religion. What if
the plethora of ancient Greek gods and myths was just a way
of expressing the existence of different interest groups
and concepts of collective psychology? That concept is not
too unfamiliar, think C.G. Jung and psychological astrology.
Taking it even further, what about a shell model of "God",
with small gods ("family", "bridge club", "work pals") and
then up to living nature in its entirety and self-created
(the invisible, unique god jewish/christian/muslim religion)?
But let me get back a bit more to the ground and try to
explain something that maybe many astrologers will not like
too much, because it detaches astrology somewhat from the
stars. However, logical evolution of the presented idea
leads quite naturally to it.
Remember planet Pluto ? Discovered in 1930, it was initially
thought to be as big as planet Earth, but today we know that
it is just a small lump of ice and dirt, smaller than even
that our moon, and just one of several similar lumps of ice
and dirt in a similar orbit beyond Neptune. (Pluto is now,
by a narrow margin, the second largest Kuiper Belt Object,
the largest being Eris). And last summer in Prague, as a
logical scientific consequence of the literal facts, Pluto
lost its status as a planet.
But that is only half of the story. People liked Pluto, many
school kids wrote letters to keep Pluto in the NY planetarium.
And, astrologically, Pluto has certainly strongly shaped the
20th century, with its wars and other important transformations,
and, of course, also strongly influenced individual lives.
But, in light of the idea of people feeling each other, what
if people just collectively *made* Pluto that strong, because
its properties summarized some common needs and desires, at
least for the time between about 1930 and now ?
But, in that case, why not consider astrology as a whole as
being mainly driven by collective wishes and intentions ?
Maybe humanity as a whole has chosen to accept the balanced
diversity of astrology, because it helps to survive in the
world and to evolve ? Let me try to reformulate that in a
bit more simple words:
What if astrology is mainly driven by collective wishes ?
What if astrological systems are just too useful for life
that they are kept intact by collective feedback, even if
they have somewhat detached from what actually happens in
the sky above ?
For example, there is no 12 constellations on the zodiac.
There is just a bunch of stars scattered around the ecliptic
that can be grouped into signs by cultural preference (for
example, Western and Chinese constellations differ). And
even if you would take the Western zodiac constellations
as given, they are *far* from forming 12 equally spaced
sectors on the ecliptic, and (due to precession) do not
coincide with actual constellation in any significant way.
Face it, astrology as it is used today, is largely a more
abstract, psychological concept that has already largely
detached from the actual stars. (That is not to say that
there are no more natural connections to the stars, only
that astrology as it is practiced today, has largely
detached from nature in the concrete sense). ;)
This post is inspired by the title of a seminar that US
astrologer Michael Lutin is scheduled to give tomorrow at
CPA London: "The Effects Of Unconscious Communication in
Astrological Delineation and Interpretation".
I first published the above idea 2002, see discoveries.pdf
contained in www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip . That
document is denser and I am much more specific about the
details of how the connection is structured, in ways that
go beyond what has even been said before about the subject.
Liz Greene apparently saw the document in 2002 and called
it "too theoretical" (private communication), which is both
true and completely wrong in a way: It is *abstract*, but
very much based on experience and the deductive mind of an
experimental physicist (me).
AIain StaIder - )o+
* From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: Hestia
* Date: 28 Jul 2004 14:25:01 GMT
Hestia is an almost invisible greek goddess. The first-born
of Cronos-Saturn and Rhea, she was also the first one that
Cronos swallowed and the last to be released from him. It
appears that the greeks gave the first offering to the gods
usually to Hestia (and seemingly sometimes also the last one).
There is very little mythology around Hestia, she does not
take part in the quarrels of gods or humans. Robert Graves,
in the introduction to "The Greek Myths", written probably
around 1955, relates her to the "Great Goddess" that was
quite homogeneously present across neolithic Europe:
: Ancient Europe had no gods. The Great Goddess was regarded as immortal,
: changeless, and omnipotent; and the concept of fatherhood had not been
: introduced into religious thought. [...] Men feared, adored, and obeyed
: the matriarch; the hearth which she tended in a cave or hut being their
: earliest earliest social centre, and motherhood their prime mystery.
: Not only the moon, but [...] the sun, were the goddess's celestial
: symbols. In earlier Greek myth, however, the sun yields precedence to
: the moon.
Hestia is the goddess of the hearth, which Graves relates to
Delphi's omphalos, which "may originally have represented
the raised white mound of tightly-packed ash, enclosing live
charcoal, which is the easiest way to preserve fire without
smoke".
The discovery/invention of fire was certainly the first and
thus most impressive change in humanity's history. It comes
natural that fire was associated with the sun, and judging
from the name "hearth", it appears also the heart (which is
today associated with sun/Leo), the only organ *inside* the
human body that moves...
This suggests that the oldest roots of Leo are female and
related to nature, which is the first and the last thing
that time (Cronos-Saturn) created, like Hestia.
Leo can often be found in beautiful places "just around the
corner", that almost everybody usually overlooks. Respecting
that, I will only give one concrete example, namely the Lion
of Iulis, a large lion sculpted out of the rock on an island
very close to Athens, but difficult to find, because normal
ferries starting from Piraeus do not go there (or at least
did not until recently), you have to take a different path.
[photo]
This suggests the lion to be an ancient guardian of nature
and time, who does not protect using fortresses or heavy
weapons, but by architecture, by knowing and circumventing
the conventions of current times.
The Holy Grail, associated with Leo since at least Jung,
comes to mind. Parsifal does not see the castle until a
fisherman shows it to him. The grail is not invisible, it
is always there, only people normally do not see it.
Except Zeus, who got to overlook everything from the sky,
several gods got leadership over previously female realms:
Hades got the underworld, Poseidon got the sea, which he
apparently never was fully happy with, and Apollon took
over at Delphi from Rhea and Python.
Hestia symbolizes the female core that man can never reach,
expressed in mythology by the wish of Apollon and Poseidon
to marry Hestia, which she refused and apparently caused
her to swear (while touching Zeus' forehead), to remain a
virgin forever. At one instance, drunken Priapus tried to
rape her when she was asleep, but an ass warned her, she
awoke, screamed and Priapus run away in terror.
Nature does not need man in the sense of humanity for her
fertility. Trees grow every year independently of humanity's
wars and troubles.
Currently, I have Neptune (Poseidon) almost opposite my
natal sun in Leo (-Apollon). So, what is it that both of
these opponents desire? I guess it is Hestia, it is nature
in its core. I remember Martin Lewicki on aam quoting Rob
Hand with "Neptune is ultimate reality" (compared to Saturn
which is not). Sun and Neptune are interested in ultimate
answers.
One of the things I did recently, was to contemplate thought
experiments in quantum mechanics, with photons (particles of
light, i.e. sun). The wave function which carries both the
secrets of the world and symbolizes the human view of it, is
represented by the greek letter Psi, i.e. Poseidon-Neptune.
One poster at aat once called my posts "esoteric", which I did
not like, because I am not at all a fan of the "esoteric
movement", but after looking up the inner meaning of the word,
"for the initiated", I could see how this emerges. Abstractly,
it is again an architectural protection of a grail. Anybody
who cares for the same fundamental questions as I do, will be
able to read what I wrote, most others, more bound be the
contemporary conventions and interests will see nothing. That
cannot generally be called the fault of the others, nor mine,
it is a function of time. There is a right time for everything
to become visible, and directing what becomes visible when, is
very important for keeping the world both prosperous and stable.
Take my discoveries: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
The title of the main document is "A few new discoveries in
physics". I loose the attention of most scientifically minded
people already there, since the document clearly is not only
about physics in the contemporary sense, but also about such
impossible subjects (for contemporary science) as astrology,
psychology, history, philosophy, all in one document. If they
really cared about nature, they would probably know that the
word "physics" comes from "physis" which means essentially
nature, including her creative side.
If they proceed, they usually stumble over the first sentence
of the abstract: "People are emotionally connected", assuming
that this is an "esoteric" sentence, something that cannot be
tested experimentally. Quite to the contrary, that sentence is
quite straightforward: The side effects of feelings can very
well be measured by measuring electrical signals and chemical
changes in the brains of two people.
And the contents of the sentence is even more obvious. Please
allow me to use the most extreme example that I could find to
prove it. It is an extreme version of Schrodinger's thought
experiment where a cat is connected to a device that either
kills or does not kill the cat, depending on whether an atom
decays (which can be prepared to be a 50% chance). For all that
it appears in contemporary quantum physics, that assuming that
whether the cat is alive (or dead) before anybody opens the door
to the experimental chamber, leads to paradoxes or would at least
require connections that are faster than light, which would,
in turn, allow to send signals into the future. Now, put a mother
outside the experimental chamber and her only child into it and
connect it to the same mechanism as the cat. Now, who has the
nerve to come forward and claim that the mother would not feel
anything when something happens to her child? Even with perfect
acoustic and electrical insulation, I don't think it would be
possible that that the mother could feel nothing, no matter what
current limited knowledge of nature as expressed by contemporary
science might suggest...
Or take my simple model of the 12 signs of the zodiac. Isn't it
obvious once you heard it that the wound of the Grail's king
(Leo) or the one of Chiron (Sagittarius) are simply the wounds
of a fire that burns as the three fire signs pass through the
zodiac, simply because the wood=earth=body disappears through
the fire and is replaced by air=knowledge=eternity ? (Aries
almost unwounded, only angry, Leo wounded to some degree, and
Sagittarius wounded deadly, but already immortal).
Or water signs: Isn't it obvious that the three water signs are
ice-water-vapour or source-river-sea ? And isn't the internal
consistency, consistent with transformations between elements
in the philosophy of Aristotle (dry/wet, hot/cold), obvious once
you have seen it ? And the more than obvious consequences of
a world where people are emotionally connected ? etc.
But probably, once again, everybody reading this and not aware
of some fundamental questions and issues, will fail to understand
what I "babble" about (as one sceptic scientic reader once remarked
about the style in my main document). Of course, remembering my own
words above, I could do a better job to explain what I mean in
detail and providing a complete path to it, paired with colorfoul
illustrations and not assuming any particular knowledge or even
interest in the subject.
However, it does not feel to me like that time is already now.
In the legend, the castle simply disappears when young Parsifal
failed to ask for the purpose of the grail...
As a guardian of time and nature, apparently the old lion is
close to the nodes.
Alain Stalder
Patrick Sullivan wrote:
: I saw that movie, it was great. But kind of a dark comedy.
Just in case, you are aware that I was rather referring
to a specific excerpt from the movie than to the movie
as a whole and that I provided a link in my original
post that allows to view the clip online at youtube.com?
(I am asking because others did not notice, either. :)
Link again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIywXg5T8x8
Actually, did not seem "dark" to me. Maybe a little bit
dark in the sense that they start up in old, outlived
customs and habits, but then move on and leave behind
that which has no future.
Saw a movie last weekend by and with Julie Delpy, and
saw her in person in the movie theatre "Le Paris" in
Zurich. ("Le Paris" means "the bet" and associates with
the french capital, and with Eris, thus fits very well
also with Venus/Taurus.) Actually the story would be
quite interesting in all detail, but too much work for
me to spell out in all details - guess also something
rather to leave behind with the n.node in Pisces.
Anyway, just some highlights: She has the n.node in the
middle of Pisces, and the sun at the end of Sagittarius
(conjunct Pluto now, and of course conjunct some ACs
mentioned in this thread). She has Saturn in Taurus.
This is her once-in-a-lifetime Saturn movie. She did
direct some smaller movies before, but this is her first
"big" movie, although still with a rather small budget.
She got the money because she chose the title to make it
sound like the movie is a sequel to two apparently quite
successful movies "Before Sunrise" (1995) and "Before
Sunset" (2004), in which her character spends one night
in Vienna resp. Paris with Ethan Hawke. These movies are
usually sorted in under "romantic comedies", but she
wanted to make a different movie.
Also, she said that because not being a director, she
knew hardly anybody in the team, she simply casted her
parents (french actors, apparently prominent activists
in the late 1960s, too) as her parents in the movie.
So there would be some people she was familiar with
around. The movie was shot very quickly (tJupiter and
her sun in Sagittarius), but also there was a detailed
script, although she let actors add a little here and
there (her sun and tPluto near Capricorn, I guess).
The movie is about learning just to be together as a
couple, in my view, about not taking some details too
seriously. To american viewers, especially the french
characters and their scenes (including Julie Delpy, but
not her american lover in the movie, who does not speak
French at all, also not in real life, she said she chose
him deliberately and that he did not leave the hotel in
real life in Paris, except when they were shooting, of
course). Anyway, what may seem exaggerated, is just a
little bit exaggerated to real french behavior, in my
experience and and also confirmed by Julie Delpy. When
I was a kid, we would often visit my godmother and her
husband in Geneva (city at the southwest corner of
Switzerland, at the French border), in March, end of
Pisces, for the Autosalon in Geneva.
There is some darkness, sure, with France's n.node in
Scorpio, but still it is not really dark in the movie,
I guess also because of her Jupiter in early Scorpio
(and she has Neptune at the end of Scorpio, actually
on my part of fortune, with her part of fortune at the
end of Pisces, conjunct my Saturn). Her chart:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/5572QcRbEmkc.htm
She plans to make a movie next about Elizabeth Bathory,
the infamous transsylvanian countess who is often said
to be responsible for torturing and killing hundreds
of young girls (or even virgins). Legends go even that
far that she bathed in virgin blood to remain young
forever. There is already a movie apparently done by
a slovak director, based on a book, that should come
out fairly soon. As she said, her (lower budget) film
will be based on historical data and her fantasy, but
that she did not read the novel.
That would be what I (n.node conj. Neptune in Scorpio)
would call a dark romantic comedy. Exaggerating a bit,
of course ;)
Coming to think of it: What if the real story was much
more profane, like girl trade east to west as (helas)
still quite commonly the case in Europe ? Maybe most
of the girls disappeared west and were maybe only just
prepared in albeit probably cruel fashion by the
countess and her (mostly female) helpers ? She had the
sun in late Leo and the nodes (again) in the middle of
Pisces... (and some stuff in Scorpio, too)
Birth date (exact day seems not sure):
7 August 1560 (Julian Calendar, of course)
Actually, I saw "2 Days in Paris" twice that weekend,
once on saturday at noon (the movie theatre "Le Paris"
usually shows movies one week before they open at
lunch time), with before that some prices handed out
to local Swiss movie makers, which was fun, and the
second time, on sunday, because I liked the movie and
the surrounding (beautiful weather, too, real Taurus
sun), and because I was interested to see the director.
Interestingly, it did not occur to me until monday
evening that I had literally passed two days in Paris,
namely two times at noon in a movie theatre of that
name. Is Eris dark ? Will there be a movie about that
transsylvanian countess and played by Julie Delpy ?
Will that remain a Sagittarian improvisation, no need
to fulfill after one Saturn in Taurus movie done ? Or
will it realize once tPluto moves into Capricorn ?
)o+
'Thenie wrote:
: "Patrick Sullivan" wrote...
: [...] OH, and
: > WARNING! There's an eclipse coming in August that is at 4 degrees Pisces!
: > Hope it works out all right with you...
:
: I'm sorry that life has been so painful for you. That you have survived
: risky situations must mean your work here is not done as yet, your lessons
: yet to be learned. I hope you have found things worth enduring life for.
:
: As to my (140-IQ) son, that he has so soundly rejected me that he has
: recently sent threatening emails (after a solid two-months of helping him
: back from the brink of suicidal despair and abject loss of possessions, car,
: job, etc) makes it outside of my ability to find him any sort of girlfriend,
: much less a Scorpio one hand-picked for him. And how manipulative would it
: be for me to do so (given his paranoia, how badly would he interpret that,
: especially if/when it goes badly?)?
:
: Actually, I believe the girlfriend of 3 years he just parted from (she
: apparently found a girlfriend and her lesbian side) was a Scorpio (he seems
: convinced all women are latent lesbians; maybe this is part of his current
: delusion that I committed incest on his sister).
:
: By Placidean method, his ascendent is about 29Sag45; mine is 00Cap11.
:
: The 4-degree eclipse is of interest to me, too; my natal Sun sits at
: 6Pis29...
To me Pisces, Cancer and Scorpio (like all signs of the same
element) go in a circle. Usually Cancer is seen as the "close
family" sign, with some drive and need to reach out to new
people during life, but also to keep the inside of the shell
that contains immediate family and some good friends protected.
For Scorpio, the game penetrating boundaries and respecting
them in other places, is an important part of life. Pisces'
strategy is different there, practically never showing any
active resistance, letting all things flow through.
That is exactly what makes Pisces such much a defender of its
most immediate family (or at least one very close person). All
other people and things are just relative, flow through, but
preserving that one person and maybe growing to a handful more,
is very important and needed in the circle to create once more
Cancer's close family into which he is born.
I mentioned the story and dream around page 141 on Liz Greene's
"The Astrology of Fate". In that story, it is a woman with the
sun in Pisces who comes to Liz Greene (Virgo sun and MC), and
asks her for advice with her husband. She does not provide full
birth data (protects the family), only that both are Pisces.
Her husband, "was a psychiatric patient, who had suffered a
number of breakdowns", was apparently making progress, was
getting out of the cycles of repeated breakdowns. But, as it
seems, the woman was not ready to follow, at least not, yet.
Here's the dream:
: My husband and I are driving to Jung's house, where we will
: be shown a film. At first the journey is comfortable. But
: the landscape becomes unfamiliar, and I become uneasy. Then
: I realise with horror that the car is driving itself. We
: arrive at Jung's house. My husband walks through the front
: door. The film is being run in colour, or so we have been
: told, but when I glimpse it it seems to be in black and
: white. I cannot go through the doorway, because a sick woman
: is lying across the threshold.
When Liz Greene asked the woman if she thought that she might
have something to do with that collapsed woman on the floor,
the woman denied that possibility energically (and Liz Greene
never saw her again after that). To me this also reminds me
of quantum mechanics, where the wave function (sybolized by
the Greek letter Psi, i.e. Neptune, Psyche) collapsed into
just a single measured result - the colorful world of many
possibilities that existed before measurement turn into just
one discrete black or white result.
)o+
PS: Can you believe that everything male is just one aspect
of the big mother, created by her and inside her, and then
expect a grown-up son to be an independent personality who
can distinguish his real mother from the collective sea ?
Is reality created, as maybe percieved by Bohr ? Well, at
least that view of the world is Pisces, is thus biased in
the sense of being only one of at least twelve views...
Todd Carnes wrote:
: ----- Original Message -----
: From: "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
: Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 8:43 AM
: Subject: REPOST: Hestia
:
:
: > Or take my simple model of the 12 signs of the zodiac. Isn't it
: > obvious once you heard it that the wound of the Grail's king
: > (Leo) or the one of Chiron (Sagittarius) are simply the wounds
: > of a fire that burns as the three fire signs pass through the
: > zodiac, simply because the wood=earth=body disappears through
: > the fire and is replaced by air=knowledge=eternity ? (Aries
: > almost unwounded, only angry, Leo wounded to some degree, and
: > Sagittarius wounded deadly, but already immortal).
: >
: > Or water signs: Isn't it obvious that the three water signs are
: > ice-water-vapour or source-river-sea ? And isn't the internal
: > consistency, consistent with transformations between elements
: > in the philosophy of Aristotle (dry/wet, hot/cold), obvious once
: > you have seen it ? And the more than obvious consequences of
: > a world where people are emotionally connected ? etc.
: >
:
: I like this metaphor. How would you proceed along the same lines with Air &
: Earth?
For earth signs, I consider a tree, with its roots that feed it
with water (and the minerals etc. diluted in it), and with its
leaves that "feed" it with the energy of the sun (fire). Taurus
is about the short-lived beauty of leaves, flowers, fruit, that
grow and decay and the re-grow every year. Capricorn is about the
roots that in contrast to the leaves etc. remain present during
all the life of the tree and give it stability. Virgo is between
these extremes. That leads to things like family/dynasty trees
for Capricorn, to Taurus preferring beauty over order, and vice
versa for Capricorn, with Virgo in between never sure which one
to opt for in concrete circumstances, making "order or not" a
big issue for Virgo, bigger than for Capricorn or Taurus.
For air signs, I consider a cloud, which emits lightning and
thunder (fire) and rains down (water). The quickness and the
unpredictability of fire appear to fit well with Gemini, and
the fact that rain gives indiscriminately to all beings below
reminds of Aquarius' altruism and strive for making things
better for humanity. Also, a thunder storm usually starts out
with lots of lightning and thunder and ends with mostly rain,
mirroring the natural order of the air signs in the zodiac.
Libra, in between, tries to balance these powers. Also, clouds
grow by the power of the sun (fire) that evaporates water and
clouds loose water through rain (water). In that sense, Libra
is also about maintaining the cloud through a balance of sun
(light) and rain.
There is also an abstract, internal consistency in this model:
Aristotle (in "On Generation and Corruption, Book II) considers
the four elements to be composed of pairs of opposites, namely
of dry/wet and hot/cold:
Fire: dry and hot
Air: wet and hot
Water: wet and cold
Earth: dry and cold
He also argues that elements transform into each other most
easily if you flip just one of these opposites, e.g. if you
make fire wet, you get from fire to air. Thus, in the view
of Aristotle, the elements essentially transform in a cycle:
... <=> Fire <=> Air <=> Water <=> Earth <=> Fire <=> ...
In the model of the zodiac above, each image corresponds to
one part of this circle:
Fire Signs: Earth => Fire => Air
Air Signs: Fire => Air => Water
Water Signs: Earth => Water => Air
Earth Signs: Fire => Earth => Water
Thanks a million for asking back :) This is the first time
somebody asked a concrete question about this model, after
almost 5 years of repeatedly posting about it... :)
The model in its original form can be found in the file
discoveries.pdf (chapters 2 and 3), which can be downloaded
as part of http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip .
The document was written mostly in 2001/2, and the Saturn-
Pluto oppositions of these times certainly show in its
very dense style, which makes it apparently hard to read
for most people, at least that appears to be the case.
Thanks again,
)o+
Todd Carnes wrote:
: > There is also an abstract, internal consistency in this model:
:
: > Aristotle (in "On Generation and Corruption, Book II) considers
: > the four elements to be composed of pairs of opposites, namely
: > of dry/wet and hot/cold:
:
: > Fire: dry and hot
: > Air: wet and hot
: > Water: wet and cold
: > Earth: dry and cold
:
: > He also argues that elements transform into each other most
: > easily if you flip just one of these opposites, e.g. if you
: > make fire wet, you get from fire to air. Thus, in the view
: > of Aristotle, the elements essentially transform in a cycle:
:
: > ... <=> Fire <=> Air <=> Water <=> Earth <=> Fire <=> ...
:
: > In the model of the zodiac above, each image corresponds to
: > one part of this circle:
:
: > Fire Signs: Earth => Fire => Air
: > Air Signs: Fire => Air => Water
: > Water Signs: Earth => Water => Air
: > Earth Signs: Fire => Earth => Water
:
: Perhaps this is why your post apealed to me. I convert old texts into
: e-books and post them on the web as free downloads as a hobby, and it hasn't
: been that long since I converted Aristotle's "Metaphysics". He discusses
: this in that book as well. Also, I just recently finished re-reading
: Ptolemy's "Tetrabiblos" & and am currently working on an e-book version of
: Plato's "Timaeus". Also, it's been quite a while since I read Agrippa, but
: if I remember correctly I think he mentioned something similar in his
: "Occult Philosophy" books.
: > Thanks a million for asking back :) This is the first time
: > somebody asked a concrete question about this model, after
: > almost 5 years of repeatedly posting about it... :)
:
: No problem and thank you for answering my question.
:
: I've recently been toying with the idea of writing my own version of
: astrology lessons. I feel that most people today go about trying to learn
: about astrology backwards. They start out with the hardest form of astrology
: (natal charts), then they move on to mundane charts, then event charts,
: elective charts, horaries, etc.
:
: I think people should learn astrology in the opposite order. They should
: start with the elements, then the humors (which I'm thinking I might
: actually combine in the same lesson with the elements), then the modalities.
: Then they should learn how to combine the elements & modes to derive the 12
: signs...etc.
:
: Once they have the basic building blocks of astrology down, I think the
: first type of charts they should learn are horaries, then elective charts,
: and so one up the line until the last charts they learn to delineate would
: be natal charts (or possible decumbitures...I'm still not sure where I would
: place decumbitures...probably somewhere closer to the horary end of the
: spectrum.)
Thanks, very interesting. :)
I like the Timaeus a lot. Have not read all of it,
but at least the sections related to elements and
their properties appeal as very rich to me.
)o+
PS: My path into astrology was roughly as follows:
zodiac (with elements and characters very early),
then (after sun) Saturn, then Jupiter and how they
are complementary, then the other planets, and then
aspects, and later all the rest... I like a synthetic
approach from simple "elementary" building blocks,
like you sketched above and I think at least half of
people interested in astrology would like that too.
Good luck with it!
I wrote:
: [...] I like a synthetic
: approach from simple "elementary" building blocks,
: like you sketched above and I think at least half of
: people interested in astrology would like that too.
Actually, it might well be more than that. I guess
with Cheiron in Aquarius (both are about teaching),
it might be a good time to do something like that.
I wrote:
: I wrote:
: : [...] I like a synthetic
: : approach from simple "elementary" building blocks,
: : like you sketched above and I think at least half of
: : people interested in astrology would like that too.
:
: Actually, it might well be more than that. I guess
: with Cheiron in Aquarius (both are about teaching),
: it might be a good time to do something like that.
Why Aquarius is about teaching, can be understood
synthetically from the model, as follows:
The cloud (air) can be seen as symbolizing acquired
knowledge and wisdom (air is invisible, abstract).
The sun (fire) evaporates water that makes then the
cloud grow. Gemini look (fire) at the world, often
also quickly look at things from different sides
(quickness of lightning or a flame), they learn.
Aquarius in the model is the rain, parts of the cloud
(i.e. of air, knowledge, wisdom) are given back to
the collective, rain down on everyone...
In article <1180123726.635650.310890@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Hermes. :-)
Hi Apollia :)
> Well, I've been trying to avoid posting to message boards in
> general, but, I can't resist replying to this, despite the fact
> that I've been enjoying my respite from most internet
> communications... :-)
Pretty much the same for me. Actually I have even stopped
of looking at the "stars". From the date I know that the
sun is in Gemini and, since I saw yesterday evening that
the moon is already more than half full, I assume the moon
is Virgo, maybe already close to (or in) Libra. Makes me
feel better not to know all positions of all planets in
detail. When I know, I tend to assume that this or that
should happen or that I should likely do this or that, but
when I don't know I gain exactly the time it took me to
consider these things to live and maybe intuitively find
more creative and open solutions to the current situation.
I relate this to n.node currently in Pisces. In a way,
astrology in its fullest, is maybe really mostly something
"medical", i.e. for situations in someone's life where
things do not go well, do not sort out themselves, and,
of course, for the "doctors", the astrologers who feel
that they have to do it. I guess generally, it is likely
something that women like to do more on a regular basis
then man. But I am already deviating - stupid usenet. :)
> I'm also replying to your Hestia thread. My replies are both
> pretty long, no problem if you can't reply to them in depth (or
> at all).
I think I will essentially only reply here, although I read
the reply to the Hestia thread in detail. Issues from there
will still flow into here, stuff like the difference between,
say, "useful reality" and "ultimate reality" (Saturn/Neptune).
After all, the sun is in Gemini. :)
Generally, in the Hestia thread, there would mostly be two
kinds of answers:
a) That is answered in discoveries.pdf
b) I don't really know, would have to think about for quite
a while, I guess, or even more than that
There are more b)'s than a)'s...
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message news:hermes-
> B85542.09312012052007@news.bluewin.ch...
>
> >This post is based on this simple assumption:
> >
> >People that are close can feel each other directly,
> >even if they do not see, hear, smell, each other,
> >and (to some degree) even if they are miles apart.
>
> I've had plenty of weird experiences which suggest this is
> actually true.
>
> Years ago I considered this idea (and astrology, and pretty much
> everything else which is rejected by the skeptical/scientific
> mainstream) totally unbelievable and "insane"... but, could do
> so no longer after too many rather odd things happened to me.
>
> More often than not it has involved dreams rather than intuitive
> feelings felt whilst awake, though I've had that happen as well,
> and also sometimes had some confirmation that my feelings were
> accurate.
>
> I found these experiences so remarkable and bizarre that it
> inspired me to try to write a massive book about it. (Not
> intended for publication... it was something I was doing for
> myself).
>
> Never finished it, though, because my computer broke down in
> July 2006. Which was actually probably a good thing, since I
> was kind of stuck in a rut of writing about my life more than
> actually living it. (A hard habit for me to break,
> actually... :-) )
>
> Anyhow, I'd say the transit that correlates most with all this
> stuff in my life, and my change of outlook regarding paranormal
> things, etc., was probably transiting Pluto opp. natal
> Mars/Mercury in 9 and conjunct n. Neptune in 3.
>
> My t. Pluto opp. n. Mercury is still ongoing. The transit will
> become exact for the last times in late August 2007, and around
> Sept. 18, 2007.
>
> I wonder what will happen... hopefully nothing bad. I feel like
> just hiding until it's all over. Then I'll have t. Pluto opp.
> my MC and sun to "look forward" to, ha, ha... :-)
In my feeling and experience, transits are also related
to their number: The first transit of a kind and the
second etc. are different from each other. I tend to
consider these relations (which, by association, apply
also to aspects, planets, elements):
1 - sun - Fire
2 - moon - Air
3 - Venus - Water
4 - Mars - Earth
5 - Mercury - Transformation of Elements
6 - Jupiter - Transformation of Air (6=1+2+3)*
7 - Saturn - Transformation of Fire (7=4+1+2)*
8 - Uranus/Nodes - Transformation of Earth (8=1+4+3)*
9 - Neptune/Nodes - Transformation of Water (9=4+3+2)*
10 - Pluto - Transformation of Transformation of Elements
(or more loosely "transformation of the rules by which
the elements transform into each other)
(For more detail, see also section titled "book" in the
old/large odyssey.zip; or directly some relatively
focused posts to aat at the beginning of 2005 that I
then assembled into that text.)
* From my model of the star signs, for example:
7 - Saturn - Transformation of Fire:
- in the model, Fire signs are Earth=>Fire=>Air
- Earth=4, Fire=1, Air=2
- the model describes a transformation in the life
of Fire signs
- number of the transformation is: 4+1+2 = 7
- there is also an interesting correlation with the
chinese I Ching, but...
Deviating again, I guess - stupid usenet.
> >That assumption, although (like astrology) at odds
> >with contemporary wisdom in the exact sciences, is
> >one that is often made implicitly in everyday life:
> >
> >- If your lover is out of the house, does the felt
> > connection suddenly disappear ? Is all that remains
> > of your lover once she/he leaves the house just a
> > bleak memory ? Could you not tell if something did
> > happen to her/him once she/he left the house ? Would
> > there be no difference if suddenly a heavy accident
> > or even death occurred ?
> >
> >- Or what about the same with mother and child, etc.?
> > Is there no real connection, is it just a naive wish
> > of being connected, just something we would like to
> > believe ? Just a naive superstition (like astrology)
> > in the eyes of modern science ?
>
> It's something I would like _not_ to believe... :-) I _like_
> modern science's idea of how the universe works... :-)
My feeling is also that the connections actually exist,
otherwise I would not have proposed that in discoveries.pdf.
But, as I write in review.pdf, an entirely local model with
"resynchronization" at some points might have largely (but
not fully) the same effect, at least in many circumstances:
Whenever I talk to a person, see her/him, there is all kinds
of input about how that person is, how she/he feels at the
moment, and so on. Maybe my brain is smart enough to sort of
create a "model" of that person and her/his current state in
my mind (in a way that is likely not fully accessible to me
in a conscious analytical way, but rather in form of feelings,
intuition, etc.). Now, when the person is away, that model
might still allow to predict/simulate what the person might
feel like at a given moment. That might explain things like
"I was just thinking about so and so, and then the phone
rang and, guess who, it was so and so that I had just been
thinking about".
But again, I do think that there is quite a bit of the
above, but that alone would still not explain some things
that happen in a satisfactory way.
Still, even if there are direct connections, they are not
complete and what one the feels and imagines does not fully
correlate with what happened to the other person once one
meets her/him again. Some things will be astonishingly
well correlated and other will be "out of sync", but in my
experience at least, in ways that maybe mostly rather
reflect my wishes with regard to what I would have liked
things to have been.
Again, that is also compatible with a largely local model
that does not require any "spooky correlations" a long
distances. Very difficult if not impossible to prove things
to be either way.
In a connected world it would, of course, also be very
difficult to distinguish the origins of what is felt.
It could be mostly from a single person or many people
further away or less directly connected to me could have
quite a similar effect. Often one does hear of it if
people you know do not feel well, have an accident, or
just had a very busy troubling day at work, but you can
never be sure. Maybe people were at something quite deep
and dark before you meet them and then (also because the
situation with me now there is different symbolically,
say synastry, composite, etc.), everything is just fine
and bright. Sometimes then if you are a bit more that
just a short time that day with these people, some
issues come up, sometimes not. Very difficult also in
personal life thus to be sure if the connections are
real or imagined locally in one's own brain.
There is some approach to enciphering secrets that is
a bit similar in a way. The idea is roughly as follows:
You have a rather large steel plate (say) and place a
number of lit candles below the steel plate. These
candles heat up the steel plate and the steel plate
will also conduct some heat. So, over time there will
be a thermal equilibrium with a certain temperature
distribution on the steel plate.
Now the trick is that if you know exactly how hot/big
each of the candles is and where it is, that then you
can calculate quite easily that temperature distribution.
But the other way round, if you only have the temperature
distribution, it is very hard (and maybe even not fully
determined) where the candles are and how bright they are.
In analogy, with close people being big/hot candles and
me not always knowing where exactly they are and with
other people being smaller candles, most of them at a
relatively large distance to me, and me even knowing
less where exactly they are, it is very, very difficult
to untangle the received mixed-up sum of influences from
all these people. Did I feel mainly person so-and-so that
I love above all (or imagine to do so), or was it just
the premiere of a new blockbuster movie that opened
globally this weekend ?
So, even if connections are real, it is very hard to tell
with certainty who/what one does feel. However, personally,
I still think that close people have a bigger effect and
also that there is love and that it is real and can be
clearly the strongest influence outshining the others and
sort of incorporating them rather as a shared inclusion
and romantization (is that an english word?) of the other
influences by making them part of the relation, part of
what makes it special, beautiful, etc.
> >- More astrologically formulated, feelings are about
> > the element Water, i.e. about Cancer, Scorpio and
> > Pisces. Do feelings remain in the "crab's shell" or
> > are they universally connected (Pisces) ? Probably
> > a bit of both, one would assume (Scorpio)...
>
> Yes, that's what it seems like to me.
About source-river-lake. Rivers merge with other rivers
until it comes all together in one ocean. A river grows
by literally incorporating influences. That is related,
say to Scorpio's issues with an urge to penetrate to new
things, to make them part of himself, i.e. also to try
to put them somewhat under his own control, thus to expand
his influence (same word again). Of course, that is a give
and take, the influence also influence the river, change
it, take away some of its freedom, bind it. Also, Scorpio
due to his limited and thus bias influences into the river
has the illusion of having gotten to the bottom of an
issue in a fundamental way, although in terms of more
fundamental reality, he has only solved a local, thus a
more practical problem, related to his own influences.
One he grows into a large stream, he loses momentum,
and purpose, a bit like Microsoft (a quite scoprionic
company) has lost purpose.
The best example for this end of scorpio in my view is
the "autumn floods" by taoist philosophy Chuang Tzi
(can be spelt in many ways), where a river arrives at the
ocean and talks to the ocean, learns about the relativity
of big and small and what is important.
> >But let me take a step back and simply assume that
> >people can feel each other directly (without a need
> >to communicate explicitly via speech, vision, etc.),
> >and see where that would lead...
> >
> >This means simply that people's brains are connected,
> >just like individual brain cells in people's brains
> >are connected to each other. In other words, the brains
> >of all people form a large brain, an entity of its own,
> >with not unlikely its own intentions and feelings, etc.
>
> My guess is, this kind of communication isn't the result of
> anything physical.
>
> I speculate that there might be such a thing as a "soul", and
> perhaps this manner of communication might be intrinsic to
> souls.
I guess that is a matter of perception or even taste. From
my experience in physics, i.e. with nature, I think that
this is a situation where one can make experiments and find
mathematical models that correspond to what is observed.
However, although the math works and is thus of practical
use, this does not make much of a fundamental statement
about how the world is. Again, implicitly referring a bit
to the Hestia thread...
I think there is a soul. But whether it is bound to matter
and just connected to other souls that are also bound to
matter (the respective bodies of the respective persons),
and thus the soul would die when the body dies, or whether
the soul is really immortal, is more difficult to estimate.
From a physical perspective, I would assume that there is
at least a concept of conservation of the elements that
make up a soul, like there is conservation of energy. In
other words, just like the atoms of the body are recycled
atom by atom and end up in other things and other living
beings again, maybe the "elementary particles" of the soul
are also reused in small quantities.
But then again, the concept of a soul is essentially an
integral one, imagining a soul as composed of many small
pieces that lack in individual distinction does not fit
at all. Leo-Aquarius, Neptune/Apollon and Hestia, I guess.
Reminds me of the movie "Death Becomes Her" where two
women achieve eternal life of the body, but their bodies
decay, while a man that seems rather weak in the beginning
(played by Bruce Willis in a very unusual role for his
life) finds a more creative solution, writes books, finds
a woman, they get married and have children. An, of course,
he reaches a kind of immortality by his children who sort
of carry part of his soul and also by his books, which are
read by many people of which some incorporate some of the
ideas and images of the book into their own souls, I guess.
> >But that is maybe a bit too simplistic: Any individual
> >is mostly closest to just a few people, family, lover,
> >close friends, then colleagues, casual acquaintances,
> >and so on. So, you would expect not to have just one
> >large "megabrain", but different "clusters" at different
> >length scales.
>
> Very interesting. Kind of reminds me of the New Age concept of
> "soul groups".
Never heard of that. Will probably look it up sometime...
> Whew, looked up the term "length scales" in Wikipedia, and I
> still am confused. One of these days, I really need to get
> around to reading an entire physics textbook (instead of just
> the first chapter or so, then drifting away from it). :-)
That is something very simple. If I simplify it even a bit
more, things are very clear: Say, the size of a human being
(very roughly a yard or a meter) is length scale 0. Then a
house (which is maybe on average 10 times bigger) is scale 1.
A group of houses might be 10 times larger again, scale 2.
And so on. The earth has a diameter of (again *very" roughly)
10'000 km, or 10'000'000 meters, thus scale 7.
Formulated that way, the universe is very small, maybe scale
20 (I am too lazy calculate in detail) or so, and also the
smallest things that have been explored are maybe scale -20*.
Interestingly, man is in the middle. Very much a Libra concept,
but also understandable, because that is where exploration of
the world starts from.
* Negative scale is smaller things. Human organs are maybe a
length scale of 10 cm, i.e. 1/10 th of a meter, scale -1,
cells are maybe 100 micrometes or so, scale -4, atoms are
about scale -10, etc. Mathematically it is just a logarithmic
scale for things (with basis 10 here, but that is arbitrary).
> Either that, or figure out how I can read the mind of the
> newsgroup brain, containing your brain which knows all about
> physics... ;-)
>
> >So there would often be a "family brain",
> >composed essentially of the members of the family. Also,
> >one could assume that certain interest groups, like, say,
> >even a usenet newsgroup, could develop its own identity,
> >with its own intentions, feelings, even fate.
>
> Hmm, neat. I wonder what the intentions, feelings, and fate of
> our newsgroup might be.
Why did I see your replies the same day yesterday, even
though I had not looked here since shortly after posting
them and even though from experience the chance of replies
is very small if they do not come relatively quickly (at
least in this group). Was it maybe just because it was the
first day of the weekend and I had more leisure to think
"I wonder what happened at aam", or was there I direct
connection.
To me it often feels that I can feel when people read my
posts, whether they like it or not, whether they get angry
and I stirred up some issues in their unconscious that then
I am sort of also responsible to comment on in a way or at
least to consider to myself, etc.
> This also reminds me of the concept in "chaos magick" of the
> "egregore".
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore
Friday I have been at a conference called Tweakfest, see
site at www.tweakfest.ch, about virtual worlds, like Second
Life (which I know you know well) and furniture with virtual
content, etc. A lot of Gemini or at least Air in these things
(and, I guess, with Neptune in Aquarius, also quite some
illusions about what it will achieve, but that would again
be in "real life", not "ultimate life").
What's the difference between a virtual gathering in Second
Life or so and a real gathering ? In my model, in Second Life
people would feel each other less because they would still be
physically separated quite a bit (in most cases). I guess this
has both advantages and disadvantages.
> >That is, of course, a concept that is not so unfamiliar
> >to astrologers. Any entity like a family or a newsgroup
> >has some kind of creation/foundation moment that (via
> >the chart for that moment) gives that unity an individual
> >soul and an individual fate (via planets at birth, and
> >then transits, synastry, and so on).
> >
> >I will come back to astrology in a moment, but let me
> >think the consequences of people feeling each other
> >directly a bit further...
> >
> >Any such "larger brain" composed of many people's brains
> >would know more things than each individual that is part
> >of it. Some private thoughts of members of your family,
> >for example, would not be available directly to yourself,
> >but would be to the "family brain" as a whole. And, if
> >you would somehow touch a theme that stirs up a "family
> >secret", you would still feel something, maybe shy away
> >from it, maybe get angry, etc.
> >
> >Now, the "family brain" might also have intentions that
> >you are not aware of, maybe even intentions that are more
> >complex than you can understand with your little single
> >person brain. (Imagine maybe ants. They can solve quite
> >complex tasks as a group, but the individual ants have
> >no chance at all to understand these group purposes.)
>
> I wish we could ask an ant what they think of this
> statement... :-)
Sure, ultimately there is no answer.
Maybe the ants are just to smart to respond to our naive
human experiments and observations. Remember the role of
mice in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy ?
> >Such collective intentions can appear as *precognition*
> >to individuals. For example, two "family brains" might be
> >in contact and might arrange some meetings between some
> >members of the family. For example, a guy and a gal could
> >meet "by chance" somewhere in the middle of town, so that
> >the meeting would appear like "fate" to them, and via
> >emotional feedback from their environments, they would
> >maybe think that it "was meant to be".
> >
> >And, in a way they would be right!
>
> Hmm, interesting. What kind of emotional feedback from their
> environments?
All kinds of things, just the reaction that what you see,
hear, smell. If you see something somewhere, what you will
do about it, depends on how you feel when you see it (or
him/her etc.). Or maybe just a general state, some calming
influence, or some nervousness, that would make the two
persons more likely, say, to bump into each other at the
fruit stand in a super market, or something like that.
> I've had experiences like that, but I'm endlessly suspicious of
> any kind of impression that anything is "meant to be".
>
> I'm always worried about at least two things: 1) am I fooling
> myself, 2) is something else fooling me? :-)
I know. I feel it depends also on the times. I remember
in the Matrix movies that Neo (the chosen one) at the
beginning had a good feeling/intuition about what to do,
what would be the right thing to do, etc. But also in the
end, quite a bit of that was an illusion. In my feeling,
in the contemporary world, there used to be sort of a
collectively stable situation until about 2000 or so,
then a quite chaotic phase after about 9/11 (egnited by
that event, but not caused by it) and that now the
"collective sea" is getting calmer and more organized
again. I can see several factors in is, Saturn-Pluto,
Pluto in Sagittarius and then soon into Capricorn, and
probably quite a few more things.
> >That is, if you count family (or other group's) intentions
> >as a miniaturized, limited form of fate.
>
> For some reason, the entire idea of fate annoys me.
> Predestination and precognition, too. I don't know, maybe I
> just don't like feeling like a pawn of forces beyond my direct,
> immediate control... :-)
Fate is related to water, is female, bound to some things.
The male elements are more free, although in a way their
freedom is limited, everybody comes from Earth (born from
a woman, or some artificial hatching device) and goes back
to Earth in the end. In that sense, the female elements are
stronger than the male ones in the end, but the phase in
between can be a large part of life, so that is in a way
rather a matter of perception.
Also, in my model the fate made by human beings would still
only be part of the world, not stronger than matter, than
physical reality (of course again assuming that there is
such a thing).
Here is a model from section 4 of discoveries.pdf:
1 - Fire - personal imagination
2 - Air - Logic/Reason
3 - Water - Collective Wishes
4 - Earth - Physical Reality
In a way, Earth would be the strongest, but in another
more circular way, Fire is again stronger that Earth.
What I dislike maybe most about the work of Liz Greene
is exactly that there is in a way no real "exit" for the
client, for the patient. I hope I could transcend that a
little bit with my work. :) I should also notice that her
progressed sun is in Scorpio (was in Libra when she wrote
her best work, the Astrology of Fate). Also Libra tends to
go as a the middle Air sign from Fire to Water, i.e. even
though the name "Libra" suggests freedom, in way, Libra's
own path in life is rather towards less freedom.
> >Face it: You can sometimes do things that you do not feel
> >like doing for some time, but mostly you do what feels
> >good and try to avoid what feels bad. ;)
>
> Sounds like something I should try more often... :-)
Yeah, in my view, that is often easiest with the nodes.
Maybe it is only because I have Scorpio conjunct the
s.node that I do at times feel strongly attracted to
rather dark things, like posting to a Scorpio usenet
newsgroup, and even though doing this from time to time
is also necessary, doing more practical things and doing
these rather privately (at least not caring much about
any kind of collective responsibility or something like
that) always makes me happier, even though it requires
usually a conscious effort to do so.
I guess with your nodes conjunct the ones of the USA,
you are likely to be bound in the Aquarius stuff of
either following conventions or fighting them, while
it might really make happier (not only you personally,
but also every US citizen) to ignore that.
(Again an implicit, unplanned reply to your reply to
my Hestia post. I really miss aat with its magic where
things just evolve automatically, although it was also
very heavy and often not controllable, a step back to
the times just after 9/11, aat was founded a week after
that - I was not posting to astrology newsgroups then,
yet, that only came in June 2002)
> >Thus, if feelings are not local, but directly influenced
> >by what others feel about what you do, what you end up
> >doing is quite heavily influenced by what others feel and
> >want.
>
> Hmm... I wonder if some people might be more receptive to such
> external influences than others. Or, is this something that
> might affect everyone equally no matter what, even if they
> resist it?
I think at least consciously there are large differences.
I know a guy who has a grand trine in Air signs. When I
am around that guy, the feelings tend to disappear quite
a bit. But I guess beneath the surface, this does influence
him at least considerably, too.
From the point of view of a physicist, it is likely that
some people are better at it. And I guess it can be inherited
and usually is. My father felt it when one of the cats we had
at the time died (the cat, a tricolore female, who was often
a bit melancholic and had also some lung problems, was at our
home, while my parents were several hundred kilometers away
on a brief holiday).
> >Of course, that can be somewhat schizophrenically
> >turned around, too: The family
>
> The individual family members, or the "family brain"?
I guess that is just a matter of perception. Essentially
I am talking about collective family wishes that are mostly
not fully conscious to the members of the family, although
they might be to some or even all of them. I guess it is
a mix in which also the conscious intentions of the
individual members of the family have an effect, but again
I think usually most of it is unconscious and shared.
In a way, maybe what is thought consciously and not actually
told to other people is least part the collective family, is
most individual, while most of the rest can be counted to
be both part of the family as a whole and part of the
individual.
> >could want you to be sort
> >of an individualistic person who strives away from how
> >things are usually handled in the family, i.e. as it often
> >is with feelings, different and even opposite trends could
> >mix up and result in some quite ambivalent situations. For
> >example, the strict self-control of a Capricorn is often
> >fueled by fun derived on the inside (i.e. via feedback from
> >the family etc.),
>
> From the "family brain" or the family members themselves?
Dito.
> >from not doing what one likes. (This is
> >what Freud called "Triebumkehr", reversal of instinctive
> >drives).
>
> Hmm... so, is this Capricorn defying the "family brain"'s
> desire, or fulfilling it? And what are some reasons why the
> family brain might want this?
A good answer with Capricorn issues is usually: Both :)
Duality is an important part of Capricorn, again also
related to Triebumkehr. Doing some thing that is per se
not liked, but drawing fun from the fact of doing something
that is against direct nature.
> >So, thus far the simple idea explains things that resemble
> >"telepathy", "precognition" and even "fate".
> >
> >Let me add two more or so before returning to astrology.
> >
> >Why stop at humanity ? People often also feel quite a bit
> >connected to their pets. Why not include also animals and
> >plants into the picture ? Living and loving (feeling) are
> >etymologically so close that there might be more to it
> >than just mere superstition (like astrology in the eyes of
> >contemporary science). And then, maybe all of nature is
> >alive to some degree as often assumed in the past, and
> >maybe even these connections reach out into space...
>
> Yes, I'm inclined to suspect that possibly the idea that
> everything in the universe is a facet or fragment of God
> (which Gail described a while back) might be true.
I remember a dream maybe almost 10 years ago, where I dreamed
that outside of my apartment there was smoke and fire and that
I saw lots of firemen outside and then that a river that is
nearby had lots of water and gotten into my garden (was a bit
different in detail, but still my garden).
The next day, I was at my parents place for dinner. After
that there was a quite impressive thunder storm and we watched
it from a large window in the living room. I recognized the
fire and smoke again in the form of clouds and lightning.
And there was lots of lightning, very impressive.
On the may back to my place, firemen had blocked a road since
a small river near my place had been blocked by a tree that
had fallen down and had thus inondated a part of the town (a
small part, nothing serious, but enough that the firemen
needed to do something about it an deviate traffic).
Now, a thunderstorm and where I would be the next day seem
predictable from a purely human-to-human network. Also the
firemen would fit in, but the tree that fell down ? Was that
really predictable to humans alone ? Did maybe someone who
walked along the small river a few days ago notice a certain
weakness in the tree ? Maybe, but it seems more likely to
me that things are more broadly connected, that there is a
connection between the small river (say, that the river is
an individual with a soul) and the world around it, including
apparently me. That I could pick up that knowledge of the
river and copy it in my dream.
Again, of course, no ultimate answers, only a practical one
in the sense that likely it is not sufficient to limit the
things that I mentioned to human-to-human unconscious
connections, besides that this is obviously a bit too biased
at least towards other complex animals, but likely also
towards any kind of life and maybe even things that are not
commonly believed to be alive.
> >Now, with that picture, assume you take a few yarrow sticks
> >and toss them to do some "divination", to query the ancient
> >Chinese oracle "I Ching". The results are often in the eyes
> >of the querent more than just "chance" or a "random result",
> >but a meaningful description of the situation at hand.
> >
> >What if the result is influenced directly by feelings, by
> >your feelings and by the feelings of people close to you,
> >and extending to humanity, living beings, nature at large ?
> >I cannot get much into quantum mechanics here, but what is
> >an integral component of quantum mechanics is that what
> >happens, what is measured (like when tossing yarrow sticks)
> >is fundamentally indeterminate (with qualifications that
> >would lead too far here), has some element of "chance" or
> >"randomness" in it that is not explainable by lack of
> >knowledge of an internal clockwork. But, if that element is
> >covered by individual and collective intentions and feelings,
> >it would become clear why the querying the I Ching or other
> >divinations techniques just "work", as follows.
> >
> >The result of "divination" would then simply be the sum of
> >all influences, with individual and close groups having often
> >more influence (depending also somewhat on the question asked).
>
> Fascinating. Maybe that's one reason why I instinctively
> mistrust divination. I always think, even if it _does_ work and
> isn't just random - what exactly is giving me the answer, and
> what if it has motivations which aren't in my best interest? :-)
Yeah, I know. I guess maybe by the nature of divination,
Neptune has a stronger voice in it than others, but then
again it is also quite Saturnian (in mythology etc.). And
there are more signs/planets, of course, that are close,
not to forget Hermes and Apollon.
I like this site, because it appears to be quite up to
the point (at least to me) and yet very open because the
replies are so short (and I learn a lot of english on the
side; I had thought that I know english quite well and on
usenet etc. I practically never have to look up a word,
but especially the keywords indicated at that site are
mostly unknown to me, although their german translations
are pretty basic things so that I suspect a huge bias in
todays world):
http://www.sabian.org/oracle.htm
The "La Plume" drawing is by Mucha, an artist from Prague.
Why I got into these things (in my imagination or really)
was because I fell in love with a girl (with sun in Pisces,
at a quincunx to my sun in Leo and conjunct my Lilith in
Pisces, a girl born with a Sun-Pluto and Saturn-Pluto
opposition in Virgo, and with Jupiter in Taurus on my
northern node. She had emigrated (maybe against her will,
at least as part of her family fate) with her parents to
Switzerland during the cold war. I fell in love with her
and I think it was mutual, I think I still can still feel
her, although we never really came together, she returned
to the Czech republic in about 1990, studied stage design
there and is now married and has a son (both actors).
What is real ? Realistically, I will never be with her
and it was exactly writing down my ideas that were sort
of our mutual fate (or "fate" - what is real?). Usually
in a relation, care is taken not to reveal everything
because then a lot of the beauty would be lost.
In my case, because there was for all that it appeared
and felt no realistic way (and no way that would be fair
to the other people involved either) to get together in
real life, at least not in this one. Because of that, the
only way out of it for me was to life the issues out to
the fullest, write down these things, bring it out.
That way, things have eased, I can still feel her and,
of course, in moments like these it is again almost as
it used to be, but that passes and essentially am free,
just with one more person (in addition to family, friends
etc.) that I am somewhat connected to and who can in some
cases, I guess, help just by having a different point
from which observing things, without actually intentionally
influencing my fate in a direct, personal way.
Am I deviating ? In a realistic way, I guess yes, in a
fundamental way, no, quite to the contrary.
> I have little trust for humanity in general (or even nature and
> the universe in general), so, I tend to dread the idea of the
> collective having any kind of a strange metaphysical influence
> on anything.
I think it is not that bad.
> Even if there is a collective mind, and it knows more than any
> one individual on their own does, I still don't think it's
> necessarily going to be capable of making good decisions, or
> that it's going to have any interest in giving me good
> divinatory advice...
>
> These pages (at least, at the moment) explain some of the
> reasons why I mistrust anything collective (including Wikipedia
> :-) ):
Very strange thing: I recently found out that I am born exactly
the same day as the guy behind Wikipedia. Don't have his birth
time, but he was also born 7 August 1966 (me at 04:11 local time
in Zurich, with AC in early Leo, conjunct rx/stationary Mercury)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
> http://www.wikiality.com/Wikiality
I dislike this too. Although I think Wikipedia is useful,
it has its limits. Independent unfiltered opinions are
very important to me. And Google at least provides some
opportunity to find them in more general terms, although
likely there is unavoidably some bias generated by their
architecture. I used to use a meta search engine called
"dogpile" exactly because it tended to provide some more
unusual and unexpected results (but later seemed to get
more mainstream, so I stopped then).
> Rather different concepts from a collective mind (a concept
> which I guess could be summed up as "a network of unconsciously
> psychically-connected minds somehow influencing everyone from
> behind the scenes"). But, at least those pages give some idea
> of why I tend to regard things that are collective with
> suspicion (and even loathing, at times).
>
> I would prefer to believe that there is an all-benevolent God in
> charge of everything, rather than "the collective" or anything
> like that. Which doesn't mean that I _do_ believe that, just
> saying that I'd prefer to (but only if it's true... :-) ).
I have Saturn at the end of Pisces (conjunct Cheiron
a little bit behind). And there is the mentioned Lilith
at the middle of Pisces. So, I am not much religious or
as far as any particular religion is concerned. Since
there are different religions and the ones that adhere
to them are comparatively convinced that "they have it",
it is much more likely that they are at most right where
they all agree and wrong where they differ.
Probably for that reason the "religion" that I like most
is Taoism, because it removes almost everything that is
specific, retaining only the core essence, the common
secret of all life, say the soul or ... Hestia.
> >Now, the word "divination" hints also at religion. What if
> >the plethora of ancient Greek gods and myths was just a way
> >of expressing the existence of different interest groups
> >and concepts of collective psychology? That concept is not
> >too unfamiliar, think C.G. Jung and psychological astrology.
> >
> >Taking it even further, what about a shell model of "God",
> >with small gods ("family", "bridge club", "work pals") and
> >then up to living nature in its entirety and self-created
> >(the invisible, unique god jewish/christian/muslim religion)?
>
> Reminds me of the concept of "godforms" in "chaos magick".
>
> Wow, I actually can't find that in Wikipedia. Next best thing, maybe:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtform
>
> Someone's page explaining one outlook on how "egregores",
> "godforms", and a couple of other things in "chaos magick" might
> relate to each other:
>
> http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/fen-egre.html
OK.
> >But let me get back a bit more to the ground and try to
> >explain something that maybe many astrologers will not like
> >too much, because it detaches astrology somewhat from the
> >stars. However, logical evolution of the presented idea
> >leads quite naturally to it.
> >
> >Remember planet Pluto ? Discovered in 1930, it was initially
> >thought to be as big as planet Earth, but today we know that
> >it is just a small lump of ice and dirt,
>
> With an atmosphere... :-)
>
> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_seasons_030709.html
>
> Mere asteroids apparently don't have atmospheres.
>
> http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/asteroids_and_comets/facts.html
>
> That's one thing that distinguishes Pluto from just another
> lump of ice and dirt. (Um, unless I'm mistaken... :-) )
I assume the other objects in the Kuiper Belt (Eris, Quaoar,
Orcus, etc.) are likely very similar.
> >smaller than even
> >that our moon, and just one of several similar lumps of ice
> >and dirt in a similar orbit beyond Neptune. (Pluto is now,
> >by a narrow margin, the second largest Kuiper Belt Object,
> >the largest being Eris). And last summer in Prague, as a
> >logical scientific consequence of the literal facts, Pluto
> >lost its status as a planet.
>
> Well, I already explained my perspective on that quite a while
> back, so, I guess I won't repeat myself... :-)
In my view it is understandable that Americans hang on to
Pluto a lot, and for good reasons, at least relative to
America. It appears sure, however, that they will not be
able to hang on to Pluto in its full strength that it had
in the 20th century (at least since 1930). But I also do
not want to dwell on it, nor do I think it is necessary
or much helpful in any way at the moment.
> >But that is only half of the story. People liked Pluto, many
> >school kids wrote letters to keep Pluto in the NY planetarium.
> >And, astrologically, Pluto has certainly strongly shaped the
> >20th century, with its wars and other important transformations,
> >and, of course, also strongly influenced individual lives.
>
> Hmm... well, I prefer to regard astrology as maybe only
> symbolically mirroring what happens, not influencing or causing
> it.
>
> But, unfortunately, the universe doesn't usually seem to go out
> of its way to please me, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm
> wrong... :-)
>
> >But, in light of the idea of people feeling each other, what
> >if people just collectively *made* Pluto that strong, because
> >its properties summarized some common needs and desires, at
> >least for the time between about 1930 and now ?
>
> Wow, that's actually kind of disturbing... what if the
> collective, behind the scenes, somehow actually orchestrated
> some of the various horrors that "confirmed" Pluto's
> astrological validity?
>
> And, if Pluto had been named Marshmallow, would those horrors
> have never happened? :-)
>
> >But, in that case, why not consider astrology as a whole as
> >being mainly driven by collective wishes and intentions ?
> >Maybe humanity as a whole has chosen to accept the balanced
> >diversity of astrology, because it helps to survive in the
> >world and to evolve ?
>
> I still never did look up an estimate of how many people there
> are in the world who believe in astrology.
>
> But, on the other hand, maybe it's not important to know that in
> order to gauge what the collective might want.
The whole idea behind my model is that most of the
connections are unconscious, or are only registered as
feelings by individuals. What individual people believe
or do not believe about astrology is not so important,
has not enough weight. The collective entities or, using
the alternative view again, the unconscious collective
side in each individual believes in astrology.
> As was mentioned a long time ago in the old "Pluto" thread,
> maybe what the collective "wants" doesn't actually depend on a
> numerical majority of people desiring/believing a certain thing.
> (But in that case, what _does_ it depend on?)
>
> >Let me try to reformulate that in a
> >bit more simple words:
> >
> >What if astrology is mainly driven by collective wishes ?
>
> Well, in that case, I'm suddenly more interested in collective
> wishes than astrology... :-)
>
> >What if astrological systems are just too useful for life
> >that they are kept intact by collective feedback, even if
> >they have somewhat detached from what actually happens in
> >the sky above ?
>
> I'm not sure I understand why that would be useful for life,
> though.
The reasons for that are quite simple. A bit abstractly
formulated, it ensures both diversity and completeness.
Take global warming, for example. People approach this
problem in quite diverse ways, including denying that it
exists to themselves and/or to others. Astrology ensures
that all the different approaches to the problem are
explored, i.e. that none is forgotten. Some problems might
not get solved if, say, the Gemini or Mars approach was
not part of the picture.
Of course, one might argue that these concepts are there
anyway, are part of nature anyway. But I think astrology
does sort of balance these things, avoids extremes in the
long run and uses them in the short run and more locally
(in individuals, etc.) to surmount some barriers.
And there is, of course, the correlation of sun signs with
what is useful/necessary to do in agricultural societies.
If most of September was Pisces, would anybody feel like
harvesting, working hard to bring in nature's fruit when
it is ready and also invest the time to stack it in and
sort it out ? Or would they just say it is karma and let
most of the stuff rot on the fields and on the trees ?
I guess it is not astonishing that Bernadette Brady who
is (as one part of her work in astrology) pursusing very
old methods using fixed stars and stellar parans, is from
Australia, a continent on the southern hemisphere, where
summer and winter are flipped.
> Oh, except for the fact that it does provide a perhaps
> reassuring impression that what takes place in life and the
> universe isn't just random and "meaningless".
>
> It provides an interesting mystery to attempt to solve.
>
> >For example, there is no 12 constellations on the zodiac.
> >There is just a bunch of stars scattered around the ecliptic
> >that can be grouped into signs by cultural preference (for
> >example, Western and Chinese constellations differ). And
> >even if you would take the Western zodiac constellations
> >as given, they are *far* from forming 12 equally spaced
> >sectors on the ecliptic, and (due to precession) do not
> >coincide with actual constellation in any significant way.
>
> Ah, so not only does astrology not coincide with the stars now,
> it never did to begin with... :-)
I guess at the oldest roots it did (c.f. also e.g. Bernadette
Brady's Visual Astrology Newsletter that is available online).
First it apparently was just Venus rising there, near that
star etc.
> So much for some skeptics' argument that precession logically
> invalidates astrology.
>
> >Face it, astrology as it is used today, is largely a more
> >abstract, psychological concept that has already largely
> >detached from the actual stars. (That is not to say that
> >there are no more natural connections to the stars, only
> >that astrology as it is practiced today, has largely
> >detached from nature in the concrete sense). ;)
>
> I agree.
>
> My guess is, if humanity somehow were able to leave the solar
> system and take up residence somewhere extremely far away, with
> all different constellations, etc., it would probably be
> possible for a variant of astrology to work there too in much
> the same way that our astrology "works".
Yeah, I considered that too before. Even already charts
adjusted to various planets of the solar system would be
very interesting. Mars with its two moons. Venus with its
very, very long day (different qualities of houses), or
Neptune with (I think) is rotation axis lying on the
ecliptic etc.
> (Except, in a solar system with too few planets, or even,
> someplace in deep space, not even in a solar system... hmmm...
> wow, maybe they'd actually have to use "hypothetical" planets...
> or something... hmm...)
>
> My guess is that the underlying causes of astrology (possibly)
> working are probably not local/limited to our solar system, and
> probably not physical at all.
>
> >This post is inspired by the title of a seminar that US
> >astrologer Michael Lutin is scheduled to give tomorrow at
> >CPA London: "The Effects Of Unconscious Communication in
> >Astrological Delineation and Interpretation".
>
> Sounds quite interesting.
I don't know to what degree it had anything to do
with what I wrote about here, but I guess with Mars
in Aries it felt like a good idea to "stake the claim"
just in case.
> >I first published the above idea 2002, see discoveries.pdf
> >contained in www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip . That
> >document is denser and I am much more specific about the
> >details of how the connection is structured, in ways that
> >go beyond what has even been said before about the subject.
> >
> >Liz Greene apparently saw the document in 2002 and called
> >it "too theoretical" (private communication), which is both
> >true and completely wrong in a way: It is *abstract*, but
> >very much based on experience and the deductive mind of an
> >experimental physicist (me).
>
> Someday, I need to read that with the undivided focus and
> attention it deserves.
The document is very much Saturn-Pluto influenced. The girl
I mentioned with her Saturn-Pluto opposition at birth time,
the Saturn-Pluto opposition of the document and the times
in which it emerged. So, maybe there will be already some
interest/drive to read it when they will be at a square a
few months from now, maybe not until they meet again in a
conjunction several years later on.
I do not read the document, except small pieces here and
there, at the moment. Is not really a full part of me, there
is too much in it to make it really fit fully into me. Take
the major influence on the symbolic astrological side of it
(and more), namely Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate". It
was published in 1984, i.e. very likely written around the
Saturn-Pluto conjunction of around 1982. Liz Greene apparently
came into contact with astrology, or more precisely really
fully, fatedly into into around 1965 with Saturn opposite
Pluto. She was born not much after a Saturn-Pluto conjunction.
So, this stuff is heavily Saturn-Pluto influenced and does
evolve at those timelines. With my Saturn/Cheiron at late
Pisces and grand Water trine, I am in a way very timeless
and calm, but there is also the moon in Aries trine my sun
and at a square to Venus-Mars-Jupiter in Cancer, so I am
in a way flowing in a very heavy and determined, natural,
fated, fashion, but with huge personal fluctuations (which
can be fun, too, but at least appear strange to others).
The main idea on my site is more natural and less fated
in a direct way than what is in discoveries.pdf. I had it
in 2004, with Saturn in Cancer, not sure if there was a
minor Saturn-Pluto aspect then.
But anyway, I guy I wrote to who uses math to investigate
the I Ching (the Chinese oracle) has written an article
that is inspired by my main idea about the elements on my
site, and is likely to be published in a scientific,
peer reviewed journal related to chinese philosophy.
)o+
PS: Wrote this very quickly in one flow, so maybe not
everything is perfect or thoughtful enough, but then
again this was essentially a post about Hestia, thus
it is linked strongly to the original post which had
been to aat at the time, so I trust aat's fantastic
error correction features this time.
Of course, this opens up many things, unlikely that
I will follow up on them (except maybe only just very
few, but I will certainly read replies, if there are
any).
> Best wishes,
>
> ----
>
> Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
astropophageous wrote:
: On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:03:39 -0500
: DJ <doovinator@gmail.com> wrote:
:
: > In my inbox the other day--
: >
: > Aries: "Let's do it again!"
: >
: > Taurus: "Please pass the pizza."
: >
: > Gemini: "Have you seen the remote?"
: >
: > Cancer: "When are we getting married?"
: >
: > Leo: "Wasn't I fantastic?"
: >
: > Virgo: "I need to wash the sheets."
: >
: > Libra: "I liked it if you liked it."
: >
: > Scorpio: "Perhaps I should untie you?"
: >
: > Sagittarius: "Don't call me--I'll call you."
: >
: > Capricorn: "Do you have a business card?"
: >
: > Aquarius: "Now let's try it with our clothes off!"
: >
: > Pisces: "What did you say your name was again?"
: >
: > ~DJ
: >
:
: Witty, but probably more astrological cliche than anything else. More or less BS, in other words.
:
: I don't know about the other signs, but Aries i.e. is better characterized just by "let's do it" or a "I want to do this" than by "let's do it again".
Aries (forgets that he just had sex): "Let's do it!"
Sounds maybe too extreme, but I have the moon in Aries
and I forget all kinds of things that I just considered
five minutes ago and decided what would be best to do
and then just try again, maybe a little bit different,
but it really hardly stops anytime.
I remember that a guy I know who has the sun in Aries
(and is of Jewish origin <=> religion from Age of Aries)
once said that "not the strongest guy wins the fight,
but the one who gets up most often after having been
knocked down".
I guess that is easier if one forgets every time one tries
that one would reasonably have no chance at almost all of
the next attempts.
"Always try. Always fail. No worry. Try again. Try better."
-- Samuel Beckett (quoted from memory)
Saturn is trine Pluto now, I assume (have not looked).
Well, aat has Saturn opposite Pluto... (no comment).
)o+
astropophageous wrote:
[...]
: > Aries (forgets that he just had sex): "Let's do it!"
: >
: > Sounds maybe too extreme, but I have the moon in Aries
: > and I forget all kinds of things that I just considered
: > five minutes ago and decided what would be best to do
: > and then just try again, maybe a little bit different,
: > but it really hardly stops anytime.
:
: No, Aries is not about forgetting things, he is about starting things.
: Pronounced forgetfulness is not a proper functioning of your memory,
: sometimes it can be a sign of Alzheimer disease.
Not that I would actually forget anything for good, it
is rather just not at all considered at the moment that
I think "Let's do it!" ;)
: > I remember that a guy I know who has the sun in Aries
: > (and is of Jewish origin <=> religion from Age of Aries)
: > once said that "not the strongest guy wins the fight,
: > but the one who gets up most often after having been
: > knocked down".
:
: I find it rather hard to ascribe any and every phrase to a particular
: sign, but some are typical, such as the "I want to do this" I was
: mentioning.
Sure, I agree with the general statement.
I wrote:
: "Always try. Always fail. No worry. Try again. Try better."
: -- Samuel Beckett (quoted from memory)
Let's do it again:
"Always try. Always fail. No worry. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."
-- Samuel Beckett (still quoted from memory)
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 15:14:09 -0500, Hermes
: <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
:
: >Saturn is trine Pluto now, I assume (have not looked).
: >
: >Well, aat has Saturn opposite Pluto... (no comment).
: >
: >)o+
:
: Hi Alain,
:
: It's always nice to see you. :-)
:
: You know, all aat needs is posts. I think a lot of people are
: more comfortable at aat, and I believe that group is more
: conducive to lively discussions than aamod is.
:
: If Sharyn keeps under the radar, I think there's a good chance
: aat wouldn't run into the problem aamod did. There's no good
: reason not to post in aat if people would like to.
I essentially agree.
Personally, I guess also related to my moon in Aries conj. MC,
what I prefer with alt.astrology.moderated is that regular
posters have their posts usually preapproved, i.e. they
appear on the newsgroups typically just a few minutes after
they have been posted. If a human moderator has to look at
a post, it can take hours in which the thing hangs in thin
air (which I associate rather with the opposite sign, Libra).
But alt.astrology.tropical is a Virgo (sun sign), so it seems
more natural (or maybe until a certain age) that posts to
there always went through a human moderator.
Another thing that I found a bit spooky at a.a.t was that
things in my posts often had somewhat of a life of their own.
That contained many times also very good things, like that I
never had to worry there about factual correctness, somehow
even if I did not check relevant facts, they were practically
always correct. And very often quite astonishing new things
emerged in my personal perception.
I guess with Uranus in Pisces (and the n.node there), people
at the moment are rather inclined towards "let it be" than
towards "let's do it again", yet. I would not mind in general
to post again to a.a.t, but more likely not just now, just
like almost everybody avoids anything at the moment that
requires to invest an initial activation energy and does not
just flow almost effortlessly.
There is one thing to discuss that might fit in well there,
though, but let me mention that in a reply to Sharyn's reply.
)o+
Ms.Maleficent wrote:
: "Jyeshta" <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote in message
: news:talkb3pc9elmebsri22r6tpv1eg4qquabi@4ax.com...
: > On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 15:14:09 -0500, Hermes
: > <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: >
: >>Saturn is trine Pluto now, I assume (have not looked).
: >>
: >>Well, aat has Saturn opposite Pluto... (no comment).
: >>
: >>)o+
: >
: > Hi Alain,
: >
: > It's always nice to see you. :-)
: >
: > You know, all aat needs is posts. I think a lot of people are
: > more comfortable at aat,
:
: Really? Where are they? :-)
I wonder how many people of those who posted to aat
(and people who used to other newsgroups) have gone
to more closed groups (yahoo, etc.).
Are many of these people still discussing astrology
over the internet or did they just let it be ?
: > and I believe that group is more
: > conducive to lively discussions than aamod is.
: >
: > If Sharyn keeps under the radar, I think there's a good chance
: > aat wouldn't run into the problem aamod did. There's no good
: > reason not to post in aat if people would like to.
: >
: Unfortunately (and maybe it has something to do with that awful chart)
: people just don't seem to want to post in there. Even the 9 people who were
: responsible for creating it don't post there any more. And it seems to me
: that discussion there tends to really polarize people, and again, that's
: probably reflective of those two nasty oppositions in the chart. I don't
: even bother to clear the spam out of the queue any more, Gail. I'm afraid
: it's a lost cause.
About the chart:
In my feeling there is often a big difference with regard
to Pluto in an event chart as opposed to in a birth chart.
Let me explain: For me Pluto at the time one is living is
rather about reduction, even destruction, of things that
should no longer live and rather make room for new life.
Pluto in a birth/election chart, however, is rather where
the born individual or the founded entity (newsgroup etc.)
will invest a lot of energy to create new things in the
space that had been created by destruction around the time
of birth. More losely formulated, while "9/11" is rather
a problem, things founded close to there would rather be
part of the solution. Not that that would be easy, though.
About that I-35W bridge in Minneaopolis:
In the 9/11 chart (first impact of plane into one of the
two twin towers), the essential symbolism is quite clear.
Saturn in Gemini is the twin towers (two of them, twins;
World Trade Center, Hermes/Mercury associated with trade,
Saturn and concrete, real buildings). Pluto in Sagittarius
is the airplanes filled with fundamentalists (Eagle is
Zeus's animal, sent by him, Zeus/Jupiter ruling Sagittarius;
religion is also associated with Sagittarius or at least
with Jupiter, fundamentalism with Pluto).
Moreover, one side, USA, with its Uranus and Mars in Gemini
fit better with the side of the twin towers and the merchants
in there, than with the religious fundamentalists in the
airplanes.
Now, aat has been much better in my feeling at identifying
that kind of essential (I guess both fundamental (Pluto) and
still realistic (Saturn)) symbolism than any other place.
So, how about that bride collapse:
Why a bridge this time ?
Why a river ?
Why a "natural" cause, or maybe more precisely no consciously
planned attack by any group of individuals ? (Except maybe
the free masons ? - Spiderpig, Spiderpig... ;)
I have not looked at the chart in detail, but likely
that should not be necessary for an initial analysis,
however, I am not sure where to start exactly.
Two inputs:
In Miami I once saw a bridge across a small river with a
sculpture on it that showed an archer who was pointing
his arrow up into the sky, while protecting his wife and
a child below him. Now that I think of it, this reminds
me of the recent death of Bergmann: In one movie from the
50s a knight plays chess with Death and manages to safe a
family (father, mother, baby) by making a bad move, and
thus briefly distracting the attention of Death, so that
the family can escape. What about Antonioni who also died?
I associate aspects as follows
1 - conjunction - sun - Fire
2 - opposition - moon - Air
3 - trine - Venus - Water
4 - square - Mars - Earth
....
That fits with the air in 9/11 and would explain the river.
I assume Venus is in Virgo now ?
Anyway, looks a bit like it is not absolutely necessary to
go into aat at the moment, maybe because there is a major
Saturn-Pluto aspect anyway and maybe a tamed version of aat
that is invoked by just refering to it, is sufficient and,
I guess, also more harmonic (Saturn-Pluto trine).
Good enough for me at the moment, no concrete need/desire
to post to aat at the moment...
One more thing: Since that object is often overlooked:
Mean Black Moon Lilith (Lunar Apogee) has recently entered
the sign of Scorpio.
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:08:21 -0500, "Ms.Maleficent"
: <ms.maleficent@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
: >Well, I'll clean the spam out again and watch for posts. :-)
:
: That's good news! :-)
For me, too. Definitely :)
As said previously, likely not in the immediate future,
but there are quite a few things I would like to pick up
again, this time maybe in a more regular and structured
way, and also learn a bit more things, like what Pete P
and Larry Swain had often been discussing (traditional
methods, I guess). I remember that Pete once a few years
ago in an e-mail to me mentioned that he did not "put
Venus there for nothing" in aat's election chart. Some
day, maybe I will be able to understand what he meant.
I also remember that I once googled and found that he
had been giving a talk about a quite special method that
went roughly like this: take the position at the sun and
then go in quintiles to the next 4 points. Then take the
Sabian Symbols for these positions and map each of the
5 Symbols to subsequent phases in one's life. Does not
sound "traditional" to me, but very interesting. I am
sure there is something to it.
I have a new job starting next month, apparently a bit a
similar story to what DJ hinted at. Lots of interesting
things to tell maybe also about how this came about, then,
also in terms of astrology. I know lots of people who have
changed jobs this year (because the moon was in Gemini at
New Year ?) and for whom the situation at work had
gradually gotten worse since about after the Saturn-Pluto
oppositions (2001/02).
Anyway, also want to read a few things for the new job,
so that I can start more relaxed and more smoothly...
> And when I can think of anything to say (because I'm a little
> brain dead a lot of the time), I will post at aat.
>
> I'm an aat virgin, so maybe this will eventually be back on topic
> for "after sex..."? (No innuendos implied.)
I think I pretty much messed up my start into at least
aam (and aa and a few more groups), by first posting there
June 20th, 2002, with a grand trine with Uranus at the end
of Aquarius, the sun at the end of Gemini and the moon at
the end of Libra (the latter at least in the unmoderated
newsgroups, I do not remember when exactly my post appeared
at aam, but it might well have been once the moon had
already entered Scorpio). And, of course, Sat opp. Plu.
I guess both aam and aat inherited from alt.astrology (Leo,
Sydney) and from the alt.* usenet hierarchy (with its anarchic
traits of not sticking much to subject, I guess), and of usenet
and of unix (usenet is not a child of the internet, though,
was only later merged into it).
Talking about Sydney and Saturn/Pluto: 9/11 was at about 3 pm
in Switzerland (first plane impact in WTC). That day I was not
working (holidays) and at home. Just maybe an hour before that
I saw a video by Kylie Minogue on TV for the first time. It was
"Can't get you out of my mind". The refrain "la la la" and the
music seem at first quite harmonic or maybe superficial, but
there is also quite a heavy and strong beat in it. Liz Greene
in her initial analysis of 9/11 (at astro.com) recognized in
the chart something typical for the start of a way: harmonious
aspects hiding some others and these then erupting. Kylie
Minogue is from Sydney, and in that song sings "there's a dark
secret in me"...
Reminds me also of a japanese guy (don't remember his name) who
wrote several books along "the message of water" etc. where he
grows ice crystals under varying conditions, sometimes playing
music while they grow or saying diffent words or using water
from different places. I remember that he was astonished that in
the water from Sydney no real crystal grew, rather just an ugly
blob.
This late afternoon, reminding me of Saturn trine Pluto, I saw
a very large ad at one of the big shopping centers of downtown
Zurich, filling the whole facade on one side. It showed Kylie
Minoque (still with short hair from chemo therapy from her
breast cancer treatment, I guess). The expression she had on
her face before that never returned, so far.
Anyway, apparently getting darker and more scorpionic again,
or maybe not really, or at least back to announcing collective
messages...
)o+
PS: If both groups' charts would really be that messed up
(have mercy, they are not even teenagers, yet), how about:
sci.astrology ;)
(yes, I know, there are a few minor obstacles, but in terms
of Saturn-Pluto cycles, probably not)
I wrote:
: Anyway, apparently getting darker and more scorpionic again,
: or maybe not really, or at least back to announcing collective
: messages...
Mercury (slightly retrograde) at the AC in the 12th, plus a
powerful "connection machine" with Venus-Mars-Jupiter closely
conjunct in the 12th (in that order). I guess the moon is in
Cancer now ? (Not looking at actual positions any more since
quite a while...)
)o+
Ms.Maleficent wrote:
: > methods, I guess). I remember that Pete once a few years
: > ago in an e-mail to me mentioned that he did not "put
: > Venus there for nothing" in aat's election chart. Some
: > day, maybe I will be able to understand what he meant.
: [...]
:
: Well, I can enlighten you. ;-) Pete's main consideration was weakening the
: Saturn Pluto opposition by burying it in the 12th/6th houses. Venus (and all
: the planets) were considered as well, but that was the main idea. So where
: Venus landed has to do with that and really not much else, I believe.
: Personally, I think we should have waited for the Jupiter Mercury square to
: pass (or at least not have it angular), and certainly shouldn't have added
: the Moon to it, but that's just me. <shrug> It was a tough chart to figure
: out, and Pete did his best, I know.
I looked at the chart for aat.
Looks like there was some room to move with Plu/Sat in 12/6.
Venus at 27Leo13 is trine the AC at 25Sag24 and Cheiron at
23Sag15. What was not known then, of course, is that Orcus
is conjunct Venus, but behind her, at 23Leo10. The Sabian
Symbol for 25Leo is "daybreak".
Orcus was discovered in February 2004. At that time it was
at about 25Leo. That point is siderally the beginning of Leo.
Subra, the paw of the Lion. Sounds like a Phoenix to me :)
Nick Anthony Fiorenza wrote around that time, related to the
discovery of Orcus and its sideral placement:
* Subra, marking the end of sidereal Cancer, is the paw of the Lion impressed
* in the desert sand. Subra is of prints, tracks, plans, codices and ancient
* maps--clues to hidden trails and paths obscured by the sands of time. Subra
* indicates a discovery process is at hand, one leading to the secret chambers,
* entryways, even to liftoff sites of the gods--places hidden from ordinary
* view. Simply, Subra asks that we dig, uncover, and find the way to navigate
* the passage of our Heart’s true desire.
*
* Synthesizing with the theme of Subra is the primary star of the very southern
* constellation Pictoris, the Painter's Easel. Alpha Pictoris indicates a picture
* or scenario is emerging from the æthers. This is a picture assembling itself
* as we break trail in our discovery process. Alpha Pictoris asks us to see the
* pathway or entryway emerging out of the mist covering an abyss, in the rock of
* a mountain side, in the billowing clouds blown by the wind, in the leaves fallen
* upon the ground, or simply in our mind's inner eye. Alpha Pictoris asks us to
* creatively assemble the signs, to read the message, to see the coalescing spirit
* substance yet to become.
Source: http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids.html
(Scroll down quite a bit. Formatting has changed lately, it
appears. In the earlier version, these two passages were
emphasized. Emphasis lost lately due to Saturn in Leo ?)
One thing that I noticed with regard to aat's chart and the
current times: tLilith (early Scorpio) trine nLilith (early
Pisces) and nNorthNode (early Cancer). A "virtual" grand
trine, I guess, since none of these is a "real" object in
outer space.
)o+
In article <6ovoc3hn79k41hfc246e9kdahhv36snjd1@4ax.com>,
Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:00:01 -0500, astropophageous
> <xcuygxcugy@zxyzxfyxz>, com@newsread501.isp.belgacom.be wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 12:15:39 -0500
> >popopo <poposchoscho@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm always wondering about placements in the 4th house (I've got 3
> >> planets there).
> >
> >This might be a little bit off-topic (at least as intended by the OP)
> >but it's an interesting observation I made about the 9/11 WTC attack.
> >
> >If you make the chart for the 21st century and the one for the moment
> >of the first plane hitting one of the twin towers (8:45 am), both for
> >New York City, the importance of the fourth house might be noticed.
> >
> >In the century chart, Mercury (lord of the 12th house) is conjunct Sun
> >and IC, and in the chart for the terrorist attack, it is again
> >lord of the 12th, but conjunct the Ascendant.
> >
> >That means HOME is where it's happening. For the citizens of New York,
> >there is not much which could say it better.
> >
> >There are many other noteworthy configurations. Uranus i.e. in the
> >century chart is conjunct Venus which is the lord of the 1st house. And
> >guess what ? At the time of the terrorist attack it has reached the
> >opposition to Uranus.
> >
> >Astrophageous
>
> I just want to say these are very impressive observations. Also
> in another post in which you spoke of the conditions of the
> Ascendant rulers. It's very good work, IMO.
I do not get it.
If I cast a chart for midnight January 1st, 2000, New York (NY),
I get the following positions:
Sun: 10 Cap 04
Moon: 09 Sco 49
Mercury: 01 Cap 26
Venus: 01 Sag 13
Mars: 27 Aqu 44
Jupiter: 25 Ari 14
Saturn: 10 Tau 24
Uranus: 14 Aqu 48
Neptune: 03 Aqu 11
Pluto: 11 Sag 26
N.Node: 03 Leo 58
Lilith: 23 Sag 26
Cheiron: 11 Sag 35
AC/1st: 08 Lib 52
2nd: 05 Sco 35
3rd: 06 Sag 28
IC/4th: 10 Cap 16
5th: 13 Aqu 42
6th: 13 Pis 36
There is no trine between Venus and Uranus.
The sun is closely conjunct the IC (because New York is
pretty much in the middle of its time zone). Mercury is
only loosely conjunct sun and IC (about 8.5 deg off).
Personally I would still count it as a conjunction, but
am not sure if I would also count Mercury with the 4th
house, since it is so far in the 3rd.
Am I missing something ?
Sorry, but I guess the sun has entered nit-picky Virgo...
)o+
I wrote:
> There is no trine between Venus and Uranus.
That should read no *conjunction* between Venus and Uranus...
Is Venus still retrograde now ?
astropophageous wrote:
: But I do want to add that I was struck by the closeness of the
: conjunction of Mercury with the ascendant for the event, and with the
: IC in the century chart - both times, it was an EXACT conjunction !
:
: Very unusual, IMHO.
In the chart of the first plane hitting one of the WTC towers
Mercury was in the 12th house very close to the ascendent.
With that I agree. (The time the plane hit the tower is known
to the second, from seismic recordings.)
But in the chart of January 1st, 2001, midnight at NYC, I get:
Sun: 10 Cap 50
IC: 10 Cap 57
Mercury: 14 Cap 37
S.Node: 15 Cap 31
(The conjunction with the sun is pretty exact, it always is
at new year in NYC, because the longitude of NYC is very
close to the middle of its time zone at 75 degrees West.)
I used the following coordinates for NYC (74w00, 40n43),
what astro.com uses. NYC is not that big though, to get an
exact Mercury-IC conjunction, you would have to move east
of Boston.
Uranus-Venus:
Uranus: 18 Aqu 40
Venus: 27 Aqu 12
Loosely conjunct (8.5 degrees off).
Am I still missing something ?
Are you aware that my natal Mercury is in the 12th house
quite closely conjunct the AC, and almost stationary,
just slightly retrograde ?
(Does not rule the 12th house, though, so I guess am not
all that kafkaesque...)
)o+
astropophageous wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:53:05 -0500
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > astropophageous wrote:
> >
> > : But I do want to add that I was struck by the closeness of the
> > : conjunction of Mercury with the ascendant for the event, and with
> > the : IC in the century chart - both times, it was an EXACT
> > conjunction ! :
> > : Very unusual, IMHO.
> >
> > In the chart of the first plane hitting one of the WTC towers
> > Mercury was in the 12th house very close to the ascendent.
> > With that I agree. (The time the plane hit the tower is known
> > to the second, from seismic recordings.)
> >
> > But in the chart of January 1st, 2001, midnight at NYC, I get:
> >
> > Sun: 10 Cap 50
> > IC: 10 Cap 57
> > Mercury: 14 Cap 37
> > S.Node: 15 Cap 31
> >
> > (The conjunction with the sun is pretty exact, it always is
> > at new year in NYC, because the longitude of NYC is very
> > close to the middle of its time zone at 75 degrees West.)
> >
> > I used the following coordinates for NYC (74w00, 40n43),
> > what astro.com uses. NYC is not that big though, to get an
> > exact Mercury-IC conjunction, you would have to move east
> > of Boston.
> >
> > Uranus-Venus:
> >
> > Uranus: 18 Aqu 40
> > Venus: 27 Aqu 12
> >
> > Loosely conjunct (8.5 degrees off).
> >
> > Am I still missing something ?
>
> No. Again, you are not missing something. :)
>
> I have to confess in my haste I lost sight of one particularly
> important aspect, it's an exact conjunction of Mercury, not with the
> IC, but with the lunar south node. They are only a few minutes off.
> It'a less than one degree conjunction, which I think is needed anyway
> for the lunar nodes.
>
> So there is an exact conjunction with the Ascendant in the event chart
> on the one hand, and an exact conjunction with the lunar south node in
> the century chart, OTOH.
>
> Shows you the importance of Mercury in this event.
Hmn. Mercury was also quite important in the 2000 US presidential
election (stationed at election night).
Is that really a signature of the 21st century or is it maybe
just particularly american (Uranus and Mars in Gemini) ? Or is
Mercury maybe important anyway in big events ?
If you have Pluto in Libra, I would tend to estimate that there
is something to your view.
> Please note that this exact Mercury/lunar south node conjunction is
> occuring in the century chart and does not noticeably vary according to
> time zones.
>
> >
> > Are you aware that my natal Mercury is in the 12th house
> > quite closely conjunct the AC, and almost stationary,
> > just slightly retrograde ?
>
> Hm. No, I wasn't. Should I have been ? It seems important to you.,, :)
Hmn ??? That's a typo right ?
You meant to write important for *this century*, no ?
:) :) :)
> Astropophageous
>
> >
> > (Does not rule the 12th house, though, so I guess am not
> > all that kafkaesque...)
> >
> > )o+
Will Kafka be important in this century ?
[posted two day ago to aat]
.... some ruminations about Saturn and Pluto and other
modern planets, in light of 9/11 and the recent trine.
9/11, Saturn/Gemini opposite Pluto/Sagittarius.
Saturn: concrete buildings (touch earth, made also of
"concrete", limitations of hardness of a building.
Gemini: twin towers, world *trade* center, merchant
comes from Mercury, ruler of Gemini.
Pluto: "grave" issues, grave-gravity, death, destruction,
making room for new things, wealth (literal meaning of
greek word Pluto), world *trade* center.
Sagittarius: fire, strongly religious attackers, come
from the sky, Zeus, ruler or Sagittarius, lives high up
in the sky, sends often an eagle as messenger, the two
airplanes.
This would suggest "Saturn in Gemini, the twin towers
have lost the fight of the opposition and crumbled
under the weight of the attacks by Pluto in Sagittarius
in form of two air planes in the sky".
There are some qualifications, some ambivalence, like
always with regard to oppositions and some more elements:
- *world* trade center, thus globalization, long journeys,
Sagittarius.
- High rise buildings became possible by combining steel
and concrete. Now, concrete, although already known in
some forms in antiquity, especially to romans, was only
really rediscovered around the time of the discovery of
the first new planet, Uranus, and put to widespread use
around the time Neptune was discovered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete
"In the Roman Empire, concrete made from quicklime, pozzolanic ash
/ pozzolana and an aggregate made from pumice was very similar to
modern Portland cement concrete. The discovery of concrete was lost
for 13 centuries until in 1756, the British engineer John Smeaton
pioneered the use of hydraulic lime in concrete, using pebbles and
powdered brick as aggregate. Portland cement was first used in
concrete in the early 1840s."
Steel is a modern form of Iron (mars). This all hints
at the modern era, with Uranus having the glyph of Mars
redirected to point up vertically into the sky, like a
skyscraper...
- With the discovery of every new planet, the properties
that the planet is supposed to be responsible for is
at a clash with the planet(s) that were previous seen
as responsible for it; death and thus also grave, fated
matters, "evil stuff" were as far as I understand seen
traditionally as Saturn or Mars, so Pluto's mythology
is clearly claiming territory that belonged to other
in the past.
- The moment of planets in the sky, with its cyclic and
predictable nature, relates to Saturn, greek Cronos, time,
but the discovery of its cause, gravitational attraction
between masses is a more modern concept.
I guess this still suggests that the essential interpretation
Saturn/Gemini = twin towers, Pluto/Sagittarius = planes, collapse
is the best *single* one.
One more argument confirms that maybe more than anything:
The empire state building was started to be built in March
1930, strongly related to the stock market crash in 1929
and, of course, to the discovery of Pluto in 1930.
Now, after the twin towers had collapsed, the empire state
building was immediately the highest building in NY again.
Who won ?
Luckily we have a trine now, although the forces that are
felt at the moment can be quite extreme, too, at least at
the moment crashes at the stock market (mortages <=> houses)
have been avoided by pumping very quickly lots of money
(Pluto, wealth) into it. There is no fight to the end, at
some point one side gives in.
As usual, lots of planets and signs that had influence then
and now, have been skipped here. Feel free to fill gaps...
)o+
[posted two days ago to aat; the original question of August 12th
is only quoted here, in its minimal beauty, it does not fit here;
see also replies there...]
I wrote:
: The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
: the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
: a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
With "bring back into mainstream" I did not mean that
only astrology would have to adapt to the current main
stream, but also that current perceptions could change
with regard to what is generally recognized to work.
Back to my original question:
I can tell quite well without looking at current planets
where, for example, the moon is. And how I do it, is not
rocket science, is very simple things, like, say when I
feel suddenly much less interested into going out and
much less curious in new things, that is a good sign that
the moon (in the example of guessing the moon) has moved
from Gemini into Cancer.
So, why is something quite simple that everybody can do
with a little experience in his/her head apparently so
difficult to do formally ?
In light of the above, maybe it would be sufficient to
formulate simple things that allow to determine current
planets in signs and hand them to people, so that each
of them could verify them by themselves. If most people
on the earth do that, all using essentially the same
astrological rules and are convinced by it, at that time
astrology would have become mainstream without a formal,
mathematical proof in the sense of contemporary science.
That kind of proof would be somewhere between todays
science and religion. Modern science requires a hypothesis
and objective verification of measurable facts. The kind
of proof for astrology that I just proposed has also a
hypothesis, only proof is not really objective, instead
it is subjective, but in lots of brains in parallel.
Religion is even more extreme, since the individuals just
chose to believe something in common, essentially without
considering and testing a concrete hypothesis in their
heads. At least essentially, that is.
So, a bit simplified:
- Science: Objective facts in outside world, hypothesis
- "Mainstream Astrology": Subjective simple facts observed
by majority of individuals
- Religion: Common view accepted out of faith
)o+
Disclaimer: This is only a suggestion. Anybody who tries
to put something like this into practice bears the full
responsibility for the consequences including for any
possible omissions in this text.
[Got it ? Idea is to forget about formal, objective proof,
at least in a first step, but instead to condense astrology
into a few things that really work and can convince people
individually, write them down, publish them, fight for them,
and eventually succeed in giving the whole thing enough
momentum that it carries on by itself, with all the chances
and risks associated with that.]
[Magic of aat; did not really, fully have that idea in my
head when I started to write that reply to aat two days ago.
It just emerged, very fertile ground indeed, this virtual
ground zero, with so much room created by Saturn and Pluto
for new things to emerge, plus architected into the chart
of aat, but maybe that is only so for me, maybe because my
Mercury is at the AC ? nah, that would be exaggerated...]
In article <46d066f3$0$23594$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
> >
> > Back to my original question:
> >
> > I can tell quite well without looking at current planets
> > where, for example, the moon is. And how I do it, is not
> > rocket science, is very simple things, like, say when I
> > feel suddenly much less interested into going out and
> > much less curious in new things, that is a good sign that
> > the moon (in the example of guessing the moon) has moved
> > from Gemini into Cancer.
> >
> > So, why is something quite simple that everybody can do
> > with a little experience in his/her head apparently so
> > difficult to do formally ?
> >
>
> Is it? Do you also teach horses to counts...:)?
>
> Why, because you yourself don't know 'how' this
> knowing-without-looking is accomplished (neurologically, whatever).
>
> I say its probably a little like the case of muscle 'memory'...as in
> when pitcher throws over the plate at 90 mph. He doesn't do
> meteorological and seismographic measurements out there on the mound,
> nor does he break out a blackboard and do the calculus of baseball
> ballistic under the current physical conditions. Heck, he more than
> likely gets wind speed and direction cues from the hairs in his nose and
> ears...:) (Not that he ever consciously thought about it...:)
> We usually don't 'know' where we learn things or how we learned them
> during our human (unconscious) habit of adapting to subtle changes. We
> apparently unconsciously school our individual selves in the various
> arts of this (very specialized) silent learning. And, we will never
> formalize a study of 'input' which we cannot even be conscious of...:)
>
> It's much more reassuring to know that we cannot know the mind of god
> (whatever) than pretend we are just wayward and lazy, or heretic-ally
> informal...:) All that is subjective, is , quite simply, a totally
> subjective experience...the stuff of each person's unshared and
> unsharable world. The anxiety attached to this realm is not the product
> of hidden 'truth' of one's experiences: no, the urgency and the
> discomfort associated with these thought s is more likely due to the oft
> denied deniable distance between human beings...the soul confronting the
> unwanted reality its solitary existence. "Wise men make friends with
> solitude--not 'Truth'....:)" Pedantus Pontificus
What I like most about you is that you never exaggerate... ;)
)o+
Patrice Leconte wrote:
: I don't know that much about astrology and so if this is off topic I
: apologize, but I have a question: Are astrologers able to interpret
: dreams? [...]
Sure they can.
However, usually things go like this:
- Client provides full birth data (date/time/place of birth)
- Astrologer consciously isolates some themes from the birth
chart, but also unconsciously registers more (manages the
unconscious, partially collective stuff rather that makes
it fully conscious - essentially a female approach).
- Astrologer says some things that contain the conscious,
superficial content, plus (by use of right words, intonation,
gestures, etc.) conveys some of the unconscious content.
- Client registers input, tries consciously to make something
out of the conscious content, while the subliminal content
evokes some things in the client's unconscious, which is
connected to others subliminally (family, etc.).
- This mix has some effect, ideally it provides different
approaches to the problem at hand, and things resolve in
some way, typically without either the astrologer nor the
client being fully aware of the full reasons.
- Astrologer and client agree on the conscious, superficial
content on the surface, which is typically only part of the
full story, if related at all (or maybe they even disagree
on this level, is not so important), and subliminally things
are also touched in some way.
The branch of astrology that tries to go deeper and also to
talk directly about the deeper reasons is typically called
"depth psychology" and is still tied a lot to C.G. Jung.
So my subsequent isolation of what I think is the main theme
in the dream below, will essentially derive from Liz Greene's
"The Astrology of Fate", which is, in turn, influenced a lot
by Jung and several other people who were typically quite a bit
influenced by Jung.
The main theme is Libra and it reflects also strongly in what
I wrote about just above.
: [...] If so, then I've been having this strange, recurrent dream and
: so I'll go ahead tell you to see if you (or anyone) can make anything
: out of it. In my dream there is a red curtain with large pleats that
: obscures a landscape of sky, sea, and sand. Beside the curtain,
: turning his back to the dreamer, there is a man (possibly myself
: although it's unclear) looking out to sea. And here's the strange
: part: it turns out that the curtain has been cut out in exactly the
: same shape as the man, as if he himself were merely a section of
: curtain snipped away by scissors. Everytime I realize that the man
: (possibly myself) has been cut out of the curtain it comes as a shock,
: although it's not frightening at all, just a big surprise because it's
: unclear if I'm the curtain or the curtain is me.
:
: What, if anything, am I to make of this? Or would you need to know my
: astrological sign (Capricorn) and other such information in order to
: interpret this, assuming it can even be done?
A common theme for Libra is that "the Gods" ask a human being
for advice, like in mythology Hera and Zeus asked Teiresias
about who has more fun during sex, men or women, or the three
godesses Aphrodite, Athene and Hera who asked Paris who of them
is "kallisti", the fairest one.
Libra is the middle Air sign (Gemini and Aquarius being its
younger and older Air sign fellows). Air is about reason and
also about objectivity. But true objectivity leads also to
paradoxes when applied to oneself. For example: "This sentence
has five words" is true, but so is "This sentence has not five
words" - i.e. both a sentence and its logical contrary are true.
With sentences that do not refer to themselves, it is always so
that not both of them can be true (or both false). Even that is
simplified and not quite a balanced view, yet, but shows where
the problems lie.
Is the man in the dream that turns his back on the dreamer
object or subject ? Both in several ways. The dreamer is not
sure if the man in the dream is himself or not, it is even
purposely left open in the dream wether that is so. The man
is an individual with a clear cut silhouette, but it is also
obviously so that he has been cut out from something bigger,
from the collective. The curtain is made of cloth, which is
one of the primal images for fate. The first of the Three Fates
in mythology is called Clotho, she is the one who weaves the
strands of fate. Each strand is an individual life. And they
interweave, children are connected to the mother and also,
but a to a lesser degree, to the father (no umbilical cord
that is cut at birth). So, that way, the man is both subject
and individual with a clear cut border, but also part of a
collective whole, and again, cut out of it, if maybe only
momentarily, so that he can judge the situation objectively
and thus judge it even better in some ways than the Fates
can. The theme of the Gods asking a human being for advice
is a very important one in the myths that Liz Greene links
to Libra, like Hera and Zeus asking Teiresias about who has
more fun during sex, men or women, or Aphrodite, Athene and
Hera who force Paris to decide who of them is "kallisti",
the fairest one, as written on the Eris' apple. The curtain
is red because that is the color of blood, the blood that
is inherited from the parent in the fabric of fate, and it
is also the blood that is present at birth. The dreamer is
another facet of objectivity, because it includes the
important ability to include oneself into the full picture,
the need to consider both individual and collective needs.
It appears that the zodiac that we know today with 12 signs
of equal size was created out of a more archaic zodiac with
only 11 signs a few hundred years BC. It appears that first
what is now the adjacent signs of Libra and Scorpio was first
one big sign. What is now the scale pans of Libra used to be
the scissors of the scorpion (who retained the stinging tail).
That means justice has been made more objective then and
also the scissors are what has cut the shape of the man out
of the fabric of fate in the dream. The sign Scorpio is ruled
by planet Mars (red planet, god of war, thus also blood).
Scorpio's view, although the sign closely related to The
Fates (modern ruler Pluto) and thus to making concrete
decisions has often also a veiled, limited view at the world,
directed by the necessity and urge to decide and cut. Thus
Libra is needed in order to improve decisions, even though
immediate realities may not necessarily allow to follow the
advice that libra gives. The theatre theme and the sea are
also hints at Jupiter (ruler of Sagittarius and old ruler
of Pisces, the sea). After Libra and Scorpio comes Sagittarius
in the Zodiac, the three signs of autumn, the season I would
most associate with Water, with fate, also because it is the
third season after spring (Fire) and summer (Air).
There are many more themes that relate to this dream and
what I wrote does not exclude what others wrote so far. The
red curtain and what is cut out could also be interpreted
as "defloration", the man penetrating into the vagina of a
woman for the first time. This relates to Virgo, but also
again to Libra, which is ruled by Venus, the goddess of love.
Saturn and Venus have just recently entered the sign of Virgo
and if I am not mistaken are conjunct in early Virgo now.
So, in essence, in my judgment the main theme is Libra.
This does not mean that all content was made conscious in
what I wrote above and it does not tell in concrete terms
what the dream means to you, why it came up at this time in
your life and what might be the best way to handle it (if
it is necessary to handle it at all).
But maybe something I wrote can contribute to that. :)
)o+ (moving slowly now, about retrograde...)
I wrote:
: Patrice Leconte wrote:
[...]
: : [...] If so, then I've been having this strange, recurrent dream and
: : so I'll go ahead tell you to see if you (or anyone) can make anything
: : out of it. In my dream there is a red curtain with large pleats that
: : obscures a landscape of sky, sea, and sand. Beside the curtain,
: : turning his back to the dreamer, there is a man (possibly myself
: : although it's unclear) looking out to sea. And here's the strange
: : part: it turns out that the curtain has been cut out in exactly the
: : same shape as the man, as if he himself were merely a section of
: : curtain snipped away by scissors. Everytime I realize that the man
: : (possibly myself) has been cut out of the curtain it comes as a shock,
: : although it's not frightening at all, just a big surprise because it's
: : unclear if I'm the curtain or the curtain is me.
[...]
: Is the man in the dream that turns his back on the dreamer
: object or subject ? Both in several ways. The dreamer is not
: sure if the man in the dream is himself or not, it is even
: purposely left open in the dream wether that is so. The man
: is an individual with a clear cut silhouette, but it is also
: obviously so that he has been cut out from something bigger,
: from the collective. The curtain is made of cloth, which is
: one of the primal images for fate. The first of the Three Fates
: in mythology is called Clotho, she is the one who weaves the
: strands of fate. Each strand is an individual life. And they
: interweave, children are connected to the mother and also,
: but a to a lesser degree, to the father (no umbilical cord
: that is cut at birth). So, that way, the man is both subject
: and individual with a clear cut border, but also part of a
: collective whole, and again, cut out of it, if maybe only
: momentarily, so that he can judge the situation objectively
: and thus judge it even better in some ways than the Fates
: can. The theme of the Gods asking a human being for advice
: is a very important one in the myths that Liz Greene links
: to Libra, like Hera and Zeus asking Teiresias about who has
: more fun during sex, men or women, or Aphrodite, Athene and
: Hera who force Paris to decide who of them is "kallisti",
: the fairest one, as written on the Eris' apple. The curtain
: is red because that is the color of blood, the blood that
: is inherited from the parent in the fabric of fate, and it
: is also the blood that is present at birth. The dreamer is
: another facet of objectivity, because it includes the
: important ability to include oneself into the full picture,
: the need to consider both individual and collective needs.
The element that is associated with blood ("red curtain") is
Fire. The landscape that is obscured by the curtain is "sky,
sea, and sand", i.e. Air, Water and Earth. In other words,
Fire seems to obscure the view onto the other elements, onto
a more balanced view of the situation.
The individual was once inextractably part of the curtain,
but now has detached and is starting to consider the world in
a more complete way.
What's the purpose of the Grail ? ;)
)o+
I wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> : Patrice Leconte wrote:
> [...]
> : : [...] If so, then I've been having this strange, recurrent dream and
> : : so I'll go ahead tell you to see if you (or anyone) can make anything
> : : out of it. In my dream there is a red curtain with large pleats that
> : : obscures a landscape of sky, sea, and sand. Beside the curtain,
> : : turning his back to the dreamer, there is a man (possibly myself
> : : although it's unclear) looking out to sea. And here's the strange
> : : part: it turns out that the curtain has been cut out in exactly the
> : : same shape as the man, as if he himself were merely a section of
> : : curtain snipped away by scissors. Everytime I realize that the man
> : : (possibly myself) has been cut out of the curtain it comes as a shock,
> : : although it's not frightening at all, just a big surprise because it's
> : : unclear if I'm the curtain or the curtain is me.
> [...]
> : Is the man in the dream that turns his back on the dreamer
> : object or subject ? Both in several ways. The dreamer is not
> : sure if the man in the dream is himself or not, it is even
> : purposely left open in the dream wether that is so. The man
> : is an individual with a clear cut silhouette, but it is also
> : obviously so that he has been cut out from something bigger,
> : from the collective. The curtain is made of cloth, which is
> : one of the primal images for fate. The first of the Three Fates
> : in mythology is called Clotho, she is the one who weaves the
> : strands of fate. Each strand is an individual life. And they
> : interweave, children are connected to the mother and also,
> : but a to a lesser degree, to the father (no umbilical cord
> : that is cut at birth). So, that way, the man is both subject
> : and individual with a clear cut border, but also part of a
> : collective whole, and again, cut out of it, if maybe only
> : momentarily, so that he can judge the situation objectively
> : and thus judge it even better in some ways than the Fates
> : can. The theme of the Gods asking a human being for advice
> : is a very important one in the myths that Liz Greene links
> : to Libra, like Hera and Zeus asking Teiresias about who has
> : more fun during sex, men or women, or Aphrodite, Athene and
> : Hera who force Paris to decide who of them is "kallisti",
> : the fairest one, as written on the Eris' apple. The curtain
> : is red because that is the color of blood, the blood that
> : is inherited from the parent in the fabric of fate, and it
> : is also the blood that is present at birth. The dreamer is
> : another facet of objectivity, because it includes the
> : important ability to include oneself into the full picture,
> : the need to consider both individual and collective needs.
>
> The element that is associated with blood ("red curtain") is
> Fire. The landscape that is obscured by the curtain is "sky,
> sea, and sand", i.e. Air, Water and Earth. In other words,
> Fire seems to obscure the view onto the other elements, onto
> a more balanced view of the situation.
>
> The individual was once inextractably part of the curtain,
> but now has detached and is starting to consider the world in
> a more complete way.
>
> What's the purpose of the Grail ? ;)
My original reply was posted 11 Oct at 07:53 AM local time in
Zurich, Switzerland. One important feature in the chart is the
new moon, moon conjunct the sun, the moon already slightly
past the sun, in the 12th house, conjunnc the ascendent. The
(arabic) part of fortune is naturally conjunct, too, in the
first house.
This moment emphasizes the end of Ramadan. How many phases does
the moon have ? How about 3+1, waxing (growing) moon, full moon,
waning (shrinking) moon, and then new moon, associated, I guess
also with menstrual blood, hence also the red curtain. Or, and
I prefer not delve into that here, the Three Fates plus Ma'at,
like the 3+1 Iranian women I met shortly (and briefly) in autumn
2001, after 9/11, but that is another story...
Libra. (or Aries, in some other sense, I guess)
The fourth sign in the zodiac, Cancer, ruled by the moon. The
fourth planet Mars when numbering planets like this: Sun, Moon,
Venus, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Saturn, ...
But I am already deviating, and of course the menstrual blood
also speaks for Scorpio (traditionally ruled by the red planet
Mars), the Lilith-Mercury conjunction there, and there is Saturn
conjunct Venus conjunct the south node, and so on, ...
Let me instead present something different in another reply,
something more synthetic (north node in Pisces), some science.
)o+
I wrote:
[...]
: : Patrice Leconte wrote:
: [...]
: : : [...] If so, then I've been having this strange, recurrent dream and
: : : so I'll go ahead tell you to see if you (or anyone) can make anything
: : : out of it. In my dream there is a red curtain with large pleats that
: : : obscures a landscape of sky, sea, and sand. Beside the curtain,
: : : turning his back to the dreamer, there is a man (possibly myself
: : : although it's unclear) looking out to sea. And here's the strange
: : : part: it turns out that the curtain has been cut out in exactly the
: : : same shape as the man, as if he himself were merely a section of
: : : curtain snipped away by scissors. Everytime I realize that the man
: : : (possibly myself) has been cut out of the curtain it comes as a shock,
: : : although it's not frightening at all, just a big surprise because it's
: : : unclear if I'm the curtain or the curtain is me.
: [...]
: : Is the man in the dream that turns his back on the dreamer
: : object or subject ? Both in several ways. The dreamer is not
: : sure if the man in the dream is himself or not, it is even
: : purposely left open in the dream wether that is so. The man
: : is an individual with a clear cut silhouette, but it is also
: : obviously so that he has been cut out from something bigger,
: : from the collective. The curtain is made of cloth, which is
: : one of the primal images for fate. The first of the Three Fates
: : in mythology is called Clotho, she is the one who weaves the
: : strands of fate. Each strand is an individual life. And they
: : interweave, children are connected to the mother and also,
: : but a to a lesser degree, to the father (no umbilical cord
: : that is cut at birth). So, that way, the man is both subject
: : and individual with a clear cut border, but also part of a
: : collective whole, and again, cut out of it, if maybe only
: : momentarily, so that he can judge the situation objectively
: : and thus judge it even better in some ways than the Fates
: : can. The theme of the Gods asking a human being for advice
: : is a very important one in the myths that Liz Greene links
: : to Libra, like Hera and Zeus asking Teiresias about who has
: : more fun during sex, men or women, or Aphrodite, Athene and
: : Hera who force Paris to decide who of them is "kallisti",
: : the fairest one, as written on the Eris' apple. The curtain
: : is red because that is the color of blood, the blood that
: : is inherited from the parent in the fabric of fate, and it
: : is also the blood that is present at birth. The dreamer is
: : another facet of objectivity, because it includes the
: : important ability to include oneself into the full picture,
: : the need to consider both individual and collective needs.
:
: The element that is associated with blood ("red curtain") is
: Fire. The landscape that is obscured by the curtain is "sky,
: sea, and sand", i.e. Air, Water and Earth. In other words,
: Fire seems to obscure the view onto the other elements, onto
: a more balanced view of the situation.
:
: The individual was once inextractably part of the curtain,
: but now has detached and is starting to consider the world in
: a more complete way.
:
: What's the purpose of the Grail ? ;)
Science is actually very simple. You propose something, make
a hypothesis. Then you calculate mathematically what that would
entail. And finally you compare it with reality.
Let me do that, with the example of Air and Libra.
The hypothesis has two parts.
The first part is my definition of the elements as follows
(see http://www.exactphilosophy.net for more details):
Fire:= out+moves
Earth:= out+rests
Water:= in+moves
Air:= in+rests
The second part is that elements transform in a circle and
that the circle is: Earth <-> Fire <-> Air <-> Water <-> Earth ...
Furthermore, each of the 12 signs of the zodiac is identified
by different stages in that transformation. For Air, the
transition is from Fire to Air to Water. Gemini is mostly Fire
and little Water, yet, Aquarius the other way round, and Libra
is in the middle trying to balance the two (Fire, Water).
(See http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip for that.)
The observation of processes in the outer world, which is, _by
definition_, Fire, is one of the bases that leads to inner,
abstract laws of nature, i.e., _by definition_, Air (a law
does not "move" in the sense that it is true today and tomorrow,
that it is something stable within, despite changing feelings
etc.). But looking out is not sufficient, as the model (and the
dream and the myth of Teiresias I mentioned) show, a "view" of
inner processes is also needed, which is, again _by definition_,
Water.
On my site I also make plausible that _from the definition_
of the elements above it also follows that:
Fire is hard and active
Earth is hard and passive
Water is soft and passive
Air is soft and active
which corresponds, of course, with common attributes given
to the elements in astrology.
Obviously, that is not a strictly mathematical derivation
from the model, yet, nor is the model itself fully specific,
yet. However, in my judgment as a physicist, the step towards
such a thing is considerable, even outright fantastic.
Over the past years I have presented a few more things that
can be derived almost from first principles about Libra and
Air and about the other elements and signs.
So, where now ? What next ?
I have Saturn at 29 Pisces in the 9th house.
But if the little fox, ...
Yeah, quite astonishingly this does it. It's done.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: Astrology is more than half as good, Ray. I've gained so many
: new insights - truthful ones - into my chart/life since resuming
: my studies of classical astrology (medieval and older) it
: astounds me.
:
: Not only that, but modern astrology provided me with a way to
: prove astrology "works", entirely independently of
: interpretation, using only timing (no, not with transits). I
: posted about it on alt.astrology.tropical a little while back,
: but I've posted about it since at least 9 years ago.
I haven't forgotten about that. :)
Still intend to give it a close look, later in autumn or, more
likely, between xmas and new year...
Even if takes until Groundhog Day (speaking of eternal recurrence).
Moon into Aquarius, I presume...
)o+
Ray Murphy wrote:
: >> > I was not talking about cultural differences. We were talking
: >> > about *century* charts, Ray. That means our good old western
: >> > calendar. The one everyone uses and understands.
:
: >> RM: I've been trying to convince you that there *are* no century
: >> charts in reality.
:
: >Now, this is strange, as I was under the impression that I had
: >actually made some.
:
: RM: Well that impression is wrong because there is no one on the
: planet who would know you had given them that title.
You don't know Saturn (Greek Cronos = Time) :)
Quote from Dane Rudhyar's "The Astrology of America's
Destiny", chapter 8:
* The birth chart of the twentieth century according to our
* Western European calendar is a highly significant one. I
* erected it in 1936 and wrote two articles about it for the
* magazine, American Astrology, the first in July 1936 and
* the second, after World War II had further corroborated
* the validity of the chart, in January, 1950 (entitled "The
* Crossroads of the Century: The War of Nerves").
(Link: http://rudhyar.com/aad/aad_c8p2.shtml, provides also
some interpretation for the chart; cast there for Washington
DC, "because we are dealing here with America's destiny".)
Calendars are periodic, they represent time, thus they are
the domain of Cronos/Saturn. No wonder, therefore, that the
Roman Calendar, which appropriately starts with the sun in
Capricorn, ruled by Saturn, has been so successful.
Obviously Jupiter does not particularly like this kind of
restrictions to the fate of the world (using century charts
one can predict already now how the 28th century will be,
assuming that the calendar will last until then).
Also the number 100 is not that artificial, since we have
10 fingers and 100 = 10 x 10.
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: >S/Arc ASC to natal bodies and Angles.
: >S/Arc ASC to progressed bodies and Angles.
:
: No, the _derived_ Ascendant from True Solar Arc Secondary
: Progressed MC. That's different from Solar Arc Ascendant.
How do you calculate this "derived ascendant" ?
Is that sort of "if at the day of my birth the MC had been
my true solar arc progressed MC, where would the ascendant
have been at that moment" ?
Or something completely different ?
(Google refuses to tell me...)
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:56:30 -0500, Hermes
: <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
:
: >Jyeshta wrote:
: >
: >: >S/Arc ASC to natal bodies and Angles.
: >: >S/Arc ASC to progressed bodies and Angles.
: >:
: >: No, the _derived_ Ascendant from True Solar Arc Secondary
: >: Progressed MC. That's different from Solar Arc Ascendant.
:
: He Hermes,
:)
: >How do you calculate this "derived ascendant" ?
: >
: >Is that sort of "if at the day of my birth the MC had been
: >my true solar arc progressed MC, where would the ascendant
: >have been at that moment" ?
:
: Yes.
OK, then I guess I should have all I need to calculate dates
where "something should have happened". I expect to be back
sometime with a description of what exactly I did (birth data,
positions of natal planets, true solar arc progressed and the
derived positions (AC, midpoints and mid-degrees), aspects of
what to what I considered and with a list of calculated events,
combined with what aspected what then).
> >Or something completely different ?
> >
> >(Google refuses to tell me...)
> >
> >)o+
>
> I have to make that distinction so that it isn't confused with
> Solar Arc Directed Ascendant.
)o+
--
X-No-Archive: Yes
In article <fo4ki3hod3shqip7i9d2nqrm89j70af2sl@4ax.com>,
Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> >Jyeshta wrote:
> >
> >: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:56:30 -0500, Hermes
> >: <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >:
> >: >Jyeshta wrote:
>
> Ray wrote:
>
> >: >: >S/Arc ASC to natal bodies and Angles.
> >: >: >S/Arc ASC to progressed bodies and Angles.
> >: >:
> >: >: No, the _derived_ Ascendant from True Solar Arc Secondary
> >: >: Progressed MC. That's different from Solar Arc Ascendant.
> >:
> >: He Hermes,
> >
> >:)
>
> That was a typo, sorry. :-)
>
> >: >How do you calculate this "derived ascendant" ?
> >: >
> >: >Is that sort of "if at the day of my birth the MC had been
> >: >my true solar arc progressed MC, where would the ascendant
> >: >have been at that moment" ?
> >:
> >: Yes.
>
> You might turn up some false positives. What I did was check the
> months and years (because I couldn't remember every exact date)
> of major life events for myself (surgeries, moves, deaths,
> catastrophes, etc.) and found an angle hit at every event.
>
> Once I knew it worked, I did the same for clients, and the time
> periods corresponded with major events in the clients' lives as
> well (I stopped because it was too much work - I did it mostly to
> verify the birth time was reliable so the method would work for
> predictive purpose).
>
> If you don't want Google to archive your posts, you need to put
> the x-no archive thing on the very first line, I think. I'm
> deleting everything you wrote to respect your wishes anyway.
Mercury still retrograde. By mistake I added the "X-No-Archive"
header as my signature, instead of as an extra news header* in
my newsreader application.
Actually, I usually don't want my posts to remain online, but
if somebody replies to my posts and quotes me, that is no
problem - actually I like that, and prefer it to not quoting.
Really so. :)
* Putting it into the first line of the post instead of into the
headers works, too, at least with Google, but I am not sure if
all other archives respect it then. I guess it was Google who
invented that trick, to keep their web interface to newsgroups
as simple as possible...
> G.
>
> >> >Or something completely different ?
> >> >
> >> >(Google refuses to tell me...)
> >> >
> >> >)o+
> >>
> >> I have to make that distinction so that it isn't confused with
> >> Solar Arc Directed Ascendant.
--
corvus wrote:
: As everybody now knows, Thales was the great proponent of water as
: origin of all being.
: A case for fire, and air, can be found in Hellenistic Stoicism. The
: Stoic position was based on the physical science of the time. The
: physics of the Stoics has been viewed as a kind of deterministic
: thermodynamics. The cornerstone of Stoic physics was the concept of a
: continuum in all things.
: The late Stoics made a bold leap when the dynamic functions of fire
: and air were extended to cover all natural phenomena. In addition to
: fire, the Stoics held the concept of pneuma, a kind of tension, or as
: modern science would put it, pressure, that holds everything together.
: Fire, by analogy, might be compared to modern notions of energy, as
: fire is latent in wood, coal, or oil.
: The Stoics differed among themselves as to the precise substance of
: the continuum. Zeno, one of the three heads of the Stoa, defined
: nature simply as fire. Another head of the Stoa, Cleanthes, held that
: there were diferent kinds of fire. Chrysippus, a third head of the
: Stoa, held that the essence was a mixture of fire and air.
: In all the classical physical views, that which is inherent in
: everything deserves to be called the soul, or absolute essence. Until
: Aristotle, none of the Greeks cared to argue that matter, or Earth,
: was the hypostate. In the question of fire, for instance, Aristotle
: differed sharply with the Stoics. Aristotle considered fire to be only
: the most active element in nature, but still an attribute, and not the
: soul of all being.
: Aristotle was less influenced by Hermeticism than certain other Greeks
: who had learned from the Egyptians. Aristotle insisted that the earth,
: and all earthly substance, was all, and in-all, and thus the true
: essence. By analogy, Aristotle today might be trying to prove gravity,
: or inertia, properties of mass, inherent in all that is.
corvus wrote ("Hermetica" thread):
: Although the origin of omen astrology is usually attributed to the
: ancient Babylonians, judicial astrology appears to have arisen in
: Egypt, during the Hellenistic era. This is what most people understand
: by astrology today. The originators of judicial astrology may actually
: have been Greeks living in Egypt, rather than native Egyptians.
Strange period to me, the Hellenistic one, placed between two
prominent deaths, the one of Alexander the Great in 323 BC and
the suicide of Cleopatra in 30 BC. Naively I would guess that
Alexander's conquests laid the ground for merging Greek ideas
with influences from other cultures. Greek culture before that
period is quite well documented, while the other influences are
apparently not that much, so that it seems often not to be clear
whether what became common in the Hellenistic period got its
concrete form then or is directly inherited from older (secret?)
Egyptian etc. knowledge. (Subra - Orcus ;)
Anyway, I have a concrete question with regard to Stoicism and
Aristotle that maybe someone here can answer or provide some
hints. It is a fumdamental conception of the elements that has
apparently emerged in Hellenistic times and by Stoic philosophers
and which is still today part of astrology:
******************************************************
* The notion that Fire and Air are light and active, *
* while Water and Earth are passive. *
******************************************************
(With that comes then also, I guess, the notion that Fire and Air
are male, Water and Earth are female, plus maybe also day/night,
bordering maybe even in those times to good/evil). And, of course,
this all is very basic astrology, probably most people learning
astrology when first reading about the star signs read this about
the elements early on.
Aristotle defines elements as follows:
Fire: dry+hot
Air: wet+hot
Water: wet+cold
Earth: dry+cold
and explicitly excludes to assign heavy/light to any of them:
* Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of perceptible body;
* and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to 'tangible', and 'tangible' is that
* of which the perception is touch; it is clear that not all the contrarieties
* constitute 'forms' and 'originative sources' of body, but only those which
* correspond to touch. For it is in accordance with a contrariety-a contrariety,
* moreover, of tangible qualities-that the primary bodies are differentiated.
* That is why neither whiteness (and blackness), nor sweetness (and bitterness),
* nor (similarly) any quality belonging to the other perceptible contrarieties
* either, constitutes an 'element'. And yet vision is prior to touch, so that
* its object also is prior to the object of touch. The object of vision, however,
* is a quality of tangible body not qua tangible, but qua something else-qua
* something which may well be naturally prior to the object of touch.
*
* Accordingly, we must segregate the tangible differences and contrarieties, and
* distinguish which amongst them are primary. Contrarieties correlative to touch
* are the following: hot-cold, dry-moist, heavy-light, hard-soft, viscous-brittle,
* rough-smooth, coarse-fine. Of these (i) heavy and light are neither active nor
* susceptible. Things are not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon,
* or suffer action from, other things. But the 'elements' must be reciprocally
* active and susceptible, since they 'combine' and are transformed into one
* another.
Source: Aristotle, On Generation and Corruption, ca. 350 BC.
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/gener_corr.2.ii.html#73
What I lack is a direct source (Stoic/Hellenistic or classical
Greek or whatever) that would link light/heavy and active/passive
to Fire+Air/Water+Earth. I found some secondary sources that do
attribute this explictly to the Stoics, though:
* The Stoics also made a distinction between principles [archai] and elements
* [stoicheia]. The basic elements are earth, water, air, and fire. Earth and water
* are heavy, passive elements, dominated by the passive principle. Air and fire,
* on the other hand, are active and closely connected with sentience and intelligence.
* The Stoics held that the soul is nourished from the exhalations from the passive
* elements. Biological bodies are distinguished from non-biological bodies by the
* presence of a specific kind of activity associated with the presence of the active
* elements in the body.
Source: The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Stoic Philosophy of Mind.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicmind.htm#SH2a
(at the bottom of the section about Zeno of Citium)
* The Stoics think that of the four elements two are light, fire and air;
* two ponderous, earth and water; that which is naturally light doth by its
* own nature, not by any inclination, recede from its own centre; but that
* which is heavy doth by its own nature tend to its centre; for the centre
* is not a heavy thing in itself.
Source: Plutarch, Concerning Nature, Chapter 12, Of Bodies.
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/plutarch/nature/book1.html#chapter12
As I said, that's where I am stuck. Any ideas where to look ?
Here are some more leads - I did not find something there,
but maybe different pairs of eyes are more successful:
Heraclitus: As far as I know the Stoics are often considered
as influenced by Heraclitus and AFAIK also some of them openly
said so; I guess Heraclitus also singled out Fire as "more equal"
than the other elements, just like the Stoics (cf. quoted text
on top of this post, of course).
Plato: I looked in the Timaeus and searched the internet.
John Opsopaus: The Ancient Greek Esoteric Doctrine of The Elements
Link: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/AGEDE/
Actually, I found an article that might be very interesting and
on-topic, an article at JSTOR - but buying it is apparently not
so straightforward:
James Longrigg, Elementary Physics in the Lyceum and Stoa
Isis, Vol. 66, No. 2 (Jun., 1975), pp. 211-229
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-1753(197506)66%3A2%3C211%3AEPITLA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-L
Excerpt that Google reveals from the middle of the text:
* Water, therefore, is heavy relative to air and fire, but light
* relative to earth; whereas air is light in relation to earth
* and water, but heavy in relation ...
As I said, any input is appreciated...
Often when I get stuck, it is something simple and obvious,
at least in retrospect... :)
)o+
--
"Three rules of public speaking: Be forthright. Be brief. Be seated."
(S. Dressel & J. Chew, 1987)
"Damn, messed up rule no. 2, again!" (me, now)
Ray Murphy quoted the open letter from Kepler College:
: [...] As
: many of you know, Kepler College has been and is working at achieving
: accreditation. But the choice to offer degrees in astrological studies
: within the liberal arts framework is, to say the least, controversial.
: [...] Kepler is grateful to past donors, who helped the College spread the
: word that astrology is an important, complex and multi-cultural
: activity that deserves a place in academia.
What exactly is the goal:
a) Astrology is a "liberal art" and part of cultural history
b) Astrology is "an important, complex and multi-cultural
activity that deserves a place in academia" (not only art
and history, also psychology, medicine, an exact science,
philosophy, a practical tool in life, a tool to predict
the stock market, ... , ... , ... ... ...)
To me (Uranus/Pluto in Virgo) this is too much of a
compromise to begin with, too much Pluto in Leo and
Uranus in Gemini, for me. The only fruitful way out
of that is to open up to different influences and to
at least partially allow the "scepter" to pass on.
Take a good long look into your mirrors to start :)
Now, that was more brief. ;)
)o+
In article <4752ba94$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:hermes-6ACD95.13311202122007@news.bluewin.ch...
> > Ray Murphy quoted the open letter from Kepler College:
> >
> > : [...] As
> > : many of you know, Kepler College has been and is working at
> > achieving
> > : accreditation. But the choice to offer degrees in astrological
> > studies
> > : within the liberal arts framework is, to say the least,
> > controversial.
> > : [...] Kepler is grateful to past donors, who helped the College
> > spread the
> > : word that astrology is an important, complex and multi-cultural
> > : activity that deserves a place in academia.
> >
> > What exactly is the goal:
> > a) Astrology is a "liberal art" and part of cultural history
> > b) Astrology is "an important, complex and multi-cultural
> > activity that deserves a place in academia" (not only art
> > and history, also psychology, medicine, an exact science,
> > philosophy, a practical tool in life, a tool to predict
> > the stock market, ... , ... , ... ... ...)
> >
> > To me (Uranus/Pluto in Virgo) this is too much of a
> > compromise to begin with, too much Pluto in Leo and
> > Uranus in Gemini, for me. The only fruitful way out
> > of that is to open up to different influences and to
> > at least partially allow the "scepter" to pass on.
> >
> > Take a good long look into your mirrors to start :)
> >
> > Now, that was more brief. ;)
> >
> > )o+
>
> RM: You mentioned PLU in LEO + URA in GEM. They may
> have their faults but they are still in the majority as the movers
> and shakers in Western society. Have a look at Astrrodatabank's
> 'year distribution' for the 26,000 people of interest throughout
> history in their database in the graph I made aand youll see a
> sharp peak in 1946 in the graph I made.
I guess the devil's advocate would suspect that it is
just their own "club" that is advertising each other.
But I am not the devil's advocate. They have done a
great deal also to help to integrate astrology back
with the rest of the world: Astrology today is a very
secular thing; suggestive or cult elements are not
part of it. After WWII there was also quite a burden
especially for people with jewish roots who often
had relatives who died in the holocaust.
But it is also their abilities by which they contributed
a lot to astrology and in many other domains that are in
their way of stepping aside and allowing new things that
are maybe not always as bright and shiny to get to work.
In my feeling still too much wanting to do it themselves
and wanting to do it their way and not enough emphasis of
helping others to develop their own and *independent* ideas,
but instead tending to surround themselves with people with
lesser abilities who remain essentially followers, a bit
like in the initial Jung-Freud relation (journey to the USA,
Freud fainting, ...). Preparing for the future is also an
important thing, because otherwise in 20 years some things
might just disappear. Robert Hand will be 65 in a few days.
I do not criticize how they started things and what they
achieved and they certainly have a right to become a bit
more stubborn with old age, but they should also make room
and help the transition, and doing so really openly and not
only within their own frameworks will be crucial...
As a physicist I have a strong interest in accredited
institutions that do astrology. Some day it would be nice
to be able to publicly associate myself with astrology.
Now it is simply not possible to do so. And one of the
reasons is the single-mindedness of people with Pluto in
Leo (and Uranus in Gemini), although not the only one.
But maybe they are doing all of that and my concerns are
unnecessary, that would, of course, be optimal.
Now, that was less brief, but maybe clearer... :)
> I've uploaded it to aamod's Yahoo site (Files section)
> "ADB Year distrib.gif"
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UKxSR658A4AsSLnD3b5ygd7gDeW2n2Wixlfoq1LcXRhafhvi4hvFikTUkhv0B0g-A9wOmw-3kyFQ-p0dzM-o4AksQyA-4kbIRyDeNgo/ADB%20Year%20distrib.gif
"Document not found"
> I isolated all the people in ADB with Plu in Leo and Ura in Gem (13.4%
> of all people) and noticed that there was only one person who was not
> born in the 20th century - Voltaire.
:)
> Ray
)o+
--
PS: This was post 21 in this thread, "world" in the major arcana,
the previous ones were 20 "judgement" and 19 "sun", etc.
In article <47532aa1$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:hermes-7EC50E.22352302122007@news.bluewin.ch...
> > In article <4752ba94$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
> > "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> >
> >> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> >> news:hermes-6ACD95.13311202122007@news.bluewin.ch...
>
> >> >
> [.....]
>
>
>
> [Years of birth for all Astrodatabank data]
>
> >> I've uploaded it to aamod's Yahoo site (Files section)
> >> "ADB Year distrib.gif"
> >> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UKxSR658A4AsSLnD3b5ygd7gDeW2n2Wixlfoq1LcXRhafhvi4hvFikTUkhv0B0g-A9wOmw-3kyFQ-p0dzM-o4AksQyA-4kbIRyDeNgo/ADB%20Year%20distrib.gif
> >
> > "Document not found"
>
> Try going via the aamod Yahoo website (then to Files folder)
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aamod/
>
> Ray
You pompous partially conscious of it two-tounged fool!
May you rule in hell - was a lot more pleasant to post here
during the year or so you were not around.
Big sponge wipe when it suits you and you can find an excuse
that many will buy when it suits you.
If it was only that post, but it is systematic and there
certainly should be a law against it.
You pompous annoying stupid fool!
Slartibartfast
Jyeshta wrote:
: On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:39:44 -0600, Hermes
: <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
:
: >In article <47532aa1$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
: > "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
: >
: >> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: >> news:hermes-7EC50E.22352302122007@news.bluewin.ch...
: >> > In article <4752ba94$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
: >> > "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
: >> >
: >> >> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: >> >> news:hermes-6ACD95.13311202122007@news.bluewin.ch...
: >>
: >> >> >
: >> [.....]
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >> [Years of birth for all Astrodatabank data]
: >>
: >> >> I've uploaded it to aamod's Yahoo site (Files section)
: >> >> "ADB Year distrib.gif"
: >> >> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UKxSR658A4AsSLnD3b5ygd7gDeW2n2Wixlfoq1LcXRhafhvi4hvFikTUkhv0B0g-A9wOmw-3kyFQ-p0dzM-o4AksQyA-4kbIRyDeNgo/ADB%20Year%20distrib.gif
: >> >
: >> > "Document not found"
: >>
: >> Try going via the aamod Yahoo website (then to Files folder)
: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aamod/
: >>
: >> Ray
: >
: >You pompous partially conscious of it two-tounged fool!
: >
: >May you rule in hell - was a lot more pleasant to post here
: >during the year or so you were not around.
: >
: >Big sponge wipe when it suits you and you can find an excuse
: >that many will buy when it suits you.
: >
: >If it was only that post, but it is systematic and there
: >certainly should be a law against it.
: >
: >You pompous annoying stupid fool!
: >
: >Slartibartfast
:
: Alain, this looks like a forgery of your name. The signature
: here is one I recognize from another group. Will you please
: change something about your email address and post (the real
: Hermes, not the fake one here).
Technically, that was me, at least sort of. I do not know why
I got the idea to post that but it just felt like the right
thing to do, not analytically, but it felt like it; I went
along with it and posted.
Reminds me of a scene in the movie eXistenZ by David Cronenberg,
where at some point Jude Law's character just says something
that he did not expect he would say. The movie is supposed to
play in virtual reality in the game and the woman who is with
him in the movie, and who is a a game programmer in "real life",
a character played by Jennifer Jason Leigh, just says that in
the game their some things preprogrammed into the characters,
even into the ones that the human players assume, just to make
sure that the story evolves and does not get stuck somewhere.
Very much a Pisces mother/son theme, I would say.
Maybe was a bad idea to mention the devil in a previous post
and maybe I could blame it on the transit of mean black moon
Lilith across the natal sun of alt.astrology.moderated, but
I guess the above piece of "modern mythology" fits better in
the end.
Yesterday I read a post by E. H. Wollmann at alt.astrology
where in the end he quotes from a song by Joni Mitchell. Then
I went to youtube and found a live performance by her with her
strongest song "Woodstock" (which she missed in real life),
but this time in the early 70's and apparently a guy with a
beard came to the stage and disturbed her song. The guy a bit
later outside spoke of knowing her from earlier on and just
wanting to speak to her and about a fence that he wanted to
"paint invisible".
I have seen such "invisible fences" quite a bit in prominent
people in astrology and I find that very sad. For example, I
once asked Alois Treindl of Astrodienst (astro.com) what he
thinks of my web site exactphilosophy.net. He replied something
along (do not have exact words any more) that he thinks that it
is a bit exaggerated to claim that name (exact and philosophy).
Invisible fence: I apparently did not occur to him to reflect
on his own works and claims. A domain called "astro.com" does
in effect claim all of "astrology" and "astronomy", at least
most of the commercial (.com) aspects of it.
Or when I met him in January 2005, and we briefly spoke about
my "discoveries.pdf" document he said that he thought that there
is nothing new in it with respect to the elements (my model of
the star signs), and referred to a book by a Swiss author.
I later got the book (for about 100 $US) and in it I just found
the usual about it, essentially what Aristotle had written, or
what you can find in other books, like Lilly and modern writers,
too, of course.
At that moment I felt a strong "invisble fence". I could, of
course, have said something then, but it was clear to me that
that would not help Alois Treindl to open up and maybe take a
few days of from doing his things and taking a closer, a more
detailed and open look at what I had written.
This has very much to do with opening up to life, c.f. my reply
to Ray Murphy and in my personal view exactly by following my
feelings instead of just my intellect and explicitly violating
the charter of aat, when posting my reply to Ray Murphy, I did
exactly that: open up to life.
I do not know how long the prominent exponents in astrology
with Pluto in Leo will stick around, but not opening up to life
does in my very personal opinion and feeling not help to make
their remaining lives longer or happier. Just ignoring what is
behind the invisible fence is only consciously possible, but
unconsciously that is a burden that just gets heavier and
heavier the more you insist, the more you "dig".
Also yesterday, I visited cpalondon.com and looked at the list
of seminar topics for 2008. The dates for all speakers are set
and the topics are also set, for all speakers except for the
director of cpalondon, Liz Greene. Now, there might be millions
of reasons for that, maybe just Saturn in Virgo and thus a lapse
in the usual cyclic ritual, but it does not feel like only that.
I tried for 5 years, to get just a few new and interesting ideas
across, in the beginning also wrote to Liz Greene and Rob Hand,
and to others. Liz Greene never replied and Rob Hand just briefly
said that he would now focus on his studies (degree in history).
They never took the time and freedom to genuinely look at what
I contributed to astrology and now again, I am investing another
few hours on a saturday morning to write this in the sure and
almost certain knowledge that it will make no difference.
Usenet is similar often. I did not want to join Ray's club at
yahoo groups just to see his graphics*. Just once in my life in
usenet I did not want to see others just reply very quickly and
not move the slightest fraction of an inch and instead get me
to invest hours of my life into writing another reply that is
then just as quickly wiped away again. Nothing is wrong with
Ray's post in terms of the charter of aat, nor is there anything
wrong with the post by itself. But summing over all posts and
replies by Ray and by many others that I met in usenet (not by
all), and this is certainly Virgo speaking, a million tiny
"wrongs" make in the end, over the years, up one "wrong" does
maybe justify in some way my reply, maybe not entirely, but in
my personal view and feeling it does.
And, sadly even if I try I cannot get really ugly and even reply
quite polite and ineffective when I try to insult someone just
to see how that may be. (I only really lost continence once when
posting to usenet, that was in reply to Christine in 2003 or so.)
)o+
--
* Images are in the "Members Only" area.
Ray Murphy wrote:
: "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: news:hermes-7EC50E.22352302122007@news.bluewin.ch...
: > In article <4752ba94$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
: > "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
: >
: >> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: >> news:hermes-6ACD95.13311202122007@news.bluewin.ch...
: >> > Ray Murphy quoted the open letter from Kepler College:
: >> >
: >> > : [...] As
: >> > : many of you know, Kepler College has been and is working at
: >> > achieving
: >> > : accreditation. But the choice to offer degrees in astrological
: >> > studies
: >> > : within the liberal arts framework is, to say the least,
: >> > controversial.
: >> > : [...] Kepler is grateful to past donors, who helped the College
: >> > spread the
: >> > : word that astrology is an important, complex and multi-cultural
: >> > : activity that deserves a place in academia.
: >> >
: >> > What exactly is the goal:
: >> > a) Astrology is a "liberal art" and part of cultural history
: >> > b) Astrology is "an important, complex and multi-cultural
: >> > activity that deserves a place in academia" (not only art
: >> > and history, also psychology, medicine, an exact science,
: >> > philosophy, a practical tool in life, a tool to predict
: >> > the stock market, ... , ... , ... ... ...)
: >> >
: >> > To me (Uranus/Pluto in Virgo) this is too much of a
: >> > compromise to begin with, too much Pluto in Leo and
: >> > Uranus in Gemini, for me. The only fruitful way out
: >> > of that is to open up to different influences and to
: >> > at least partially allow the "scepter" to pass on.
: >> >
: >> > Take a good long look into your mirrors to start :)
: >> >
: >> > Now, that was more brief. ;)
: >> >
: >> > )o+
: >>
: >> RM: You mentioned PLU in LEO + URA in GEM. They may
: >> have their faults but they are still in the majority as the movers
: >> and shakers in Western society. Have a look at Astrrodatabank's
: >> 'year distribution' for the 26,000 people of interest throughout
: >> history in their database in the graph I made aand youll see a
: >> sharp peak in 1946 in the graph I made.
: >
: > I guess the devil's advocate would suspect that it is
: > just their own "club" that is advertising each other.
:
: RM: The high number of people in that age bracket centred
: on 1946 is probably just a reflection of the data gatherer's ages.
: One wouldn't realise that if they were unaware of the huge
: influx of people into astrology in the 70's and 80's when they
: reached an age (around 35) when they were able to appreciate
: astrology for what it was.
:
: Those astrologers who supplied data to Astrodatabank would
: have found it a lot easier to acquire data from people in their
: own age groups than people who were considerably younger,
: and in any case the younger people hadn't DONE enough of
: anything to warrant mention - the same as the astrologers
: hadn't, at an earlier age.
:
: I've got no idea if younger astrologers are taking the place
: of the older ones and contributing data and getting involved
: and treatung this art seriously, or whether they reckion it's
: just a fun thing you can muck around with and do as you
: please and replace the rules because it feels good or
: "because you can". If that IS the case then the established
: ways will remain relatively intact and left in the hands of
: dedicated young people.
:
: > But I am not the devil's advocate. They have done a
: > great deal also to help to integrate astrology back
: > with the rest of the world: Astrology today is a very
: > secular thing; suggestive or cult elements are not
: > part of it. After WWII there was also quite a burden
: > especially for people with jewish roots who often
: > had relatives who died in the holocaust.
: >
: > But it is also their abilities by which they contributed
: > a lot to astrology and in many other domains that are in
: > their way of stepping aside and allowing new things that
: > are maybe not always as bright and shiny to get to work.
: >
: > In my feeling still too much wanting to do it themselves
: > and wanting to do it their way and not enough emphasis of
: > helping others to develop their own and *independent* ideas,
: > but instead tending to surround themselves with people with
: > lesser abilities who remain essentially followers, a bit
: > like in the initial Jung-Freud relation (journey to the USA,
: > Freud fainting, ...). Preparing for the future is also an
: > important thing, because otherwise in 20 years some things
: > might just disappear. Robert Hand will be 65 in a few days.
:
: RM: Well, lets hope he's still at it (part time) when he's 95.
:
: > I do not criticize how they started things and what they
: > achieved and they certainly have a right to become a bit
: > more stubborn with old age, but they should also make room
: > and help the transition, and doing so really openly and not
: > only within their own frameworks will be crucial...
:
: RM: The power in astrology comes from publishing and
: lecturing and staying in step with those who matter - not
: good ideas. The only other opening, is for anyone who
: can read charts extraordinarily well.
:
: > As a physicist I have a strong interest in accredited
: > institutions that do astrology. Some day it would be nice
: > to be able to publicly associate myself with astrology.
: > Now it is simply not possible to do so. And one of the
: > reasons is the single-mindedness of people with Pluto in
: > Leo (and Uranus in Gemini), although not the only one.
:
: RM: This sounds a bit like ageism creeping in. Some of these
: influential people will be doing their thing for another 20 years!
:
:
: Ray
Gorbachev 7 October 1989:
"Trudnosti podsteregajut tech, kto ne reagirujet na shisn"
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michail_Sergejewitsch_Gorbatschow
"Difficulties lurk for the one who does not react to life"
Whether one person does or does not do so, is something
that in the end each individual has to judge her/himself.
But who would claim that a sign, by revealing its cause,
ceases to be a sign ?
)o+
Actually I mixed up Slartibartfast with Wowbagger, the
* alien who became immortal due to an accident with an irrational particle
* accelerator, a pair of rubber bands and a liquid lunch, so therefore does
* not know how to handle being immortal. This is in contrast to the rest of
* the immortal beings in the universe, who are, in his opinion, "a load of
* serene bastards." He eventually comes up with a plan to keep himself busy:
* he will insult every living being in the universe - in alphabetical order.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_characters_from_The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy
So it is supposedly OK not to help out at all, zero, nada.
I am sure that was what the people in the 60s were aspiring
to, remove the establishment that behaved exactly like that
and just do exactly the same once power is gained ... NOT!
No, the idea was to make the world better. Yes, really!
In the recent years, maybe since 9/11 it has become almost
normal for many people to equate hardness with strength.
That is not so, it depends on the circumstances. I cannot
speak for older people nor for people of my age, all I can
say is that I will do my best not to make the same mistakes,
and to help out younger people if they should come to me,
even if I do not understand or like what they do. Maybe that
will not include each and everyone, but since I will never
ever say anything in public again, except on the behalf of
others, I will have more time to look at it, instead of
just doing "my thing" until I die... ;)*
)o+
* I will keep the idea that my site is about as a hobby,
since this is very minimal and will take very little time
and by not trying to repeat the same things that I said
during the previous 5 years in usenet (write a book etc.)
I will maybe not stiffen as much as to start to think that
it is all true (which it is not) or that it is without
bias (which it is not), only that it does contain obviously
seminal new ideas, if not to say new paradigms...
I feel a bit like an alien in this world because I lack
almost all of the usual traumas that practically every
being on this world has, except maybe birth, but I guess
being born in summer of '66, early sunday morning and in
Switzerland is about as close as you can get, and there
are, of course, many normal people in the world, they are
just not famous, in all generations with all imaginable
birth charts...
Everybody please feel free to reply, but please be not
disappointed should there be more replies by me... ;)
Once more:
But who would claim that by revealing the cause of a sign,
a sign ceases to be a sign ? - Vera Linhartova
C to D ...
--
"elisabeth" <elisabeth.kastl@aon.at> wrote:
: As you signed with Slartibartfast, a designer of planets in the fiction of
: Douglas Adams, I was quite sure that you are Hermes, more or less the "real"
: one in a sort of rage against the boomers in general.You addressed it to Ray
: because there was nobody else you could blame for the whole generation you
: dislike.
: I think it speeks for you that you wrote this statement.
: I really don´t understand why so many out of the younger generation always
: blame the boomers with Pluto in Leo and Uranus in Gemini (or beginning of
: Cancer, I include myself to be one) for everything that goes wrong or cann´t
: be achieved by them but maybe I live in my own little world and don´t know
: too much what´s going on.
:
: Elisabeth
:
: "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
: news:hermes-370E8E.09074808122007@news.bluewin.ch...
: > Jyeshta wrote:
: >
: > : On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:39:44 -0600, Hermes
: > : <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: > :
: > : >In article <47532aa1$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
: > : > "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
: > : >
: > : >> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: > : >> news:hermes-7EC50E.22352302122007@news.bluewin.ch...
: > : >> > In article <4752ba94$1_1@news.chariot.net.au>,
: > : >> > "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
: > : >> >
: > : >> >> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
: > : >> >> news:hermes-6ACD95.13311202122007@news.bluewin.ch...
: > : >>
: > : >> >> >
: > : >> [.....]
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >>
: > : >> [Years of birth for all Astrodatabank data]
: > : >>
: > : >> >> I've uploaded it to aamod's Yahoo site (Files section)
: > : >> >> "ADB Year distrib.gif"
: > : >> >>
: > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UKxSR658A4AsSLnD3b5ygd7gDeW2n2Wixlfoq1LcXRhafhvi4hvFikTUkhv0B0g-A9wOmw-3kyFQ-p0dzM-o4AksQyA-4kbIRyDeNgo/ADB%20Year%20distrib.gif
: > : >> >
: > : >> > "Document not found"
: > : >>
: > : >> Try going via the aamod Yahoo website (then to Files folder)
: > : >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aamod/
: > : >>
: > : >> Ray
: > : >
: > : >You pompous partially conscious of it two-tounged fool!
: > : >
: > : >May you rule in hell - was a lot more pleasant to post here
: > : >during the year or so you were not around.
: > : >
: > : >Big sponge wipe when it suits you and you can find an excuse
: > : >that many will buy when it suits you.
: > : >
: > : >If it was only that post, but it is systematic and there
: > : >certainly should be a law against it.
: > : >
: > : >You pompous annoying stupid fool!
: > : >
: > : >Slartibartfast
: > :
: > : Alain, this looks like a forgery of your name. The signature
: > : here is one I recognize from another group. Will you please
: > : change something about your email address and post (the real
: > : Hermes, not the fake one here).
: >
: > Technically, that was me, at least sort of. I do not know why
: > I got the idea to post that but it just felt like the right
: > thing to do, not analytically, but it felt like it; I went
: > along with it and posted.
: >
: > Reminds me of a scene in the movie eXistenZ by David Cronenberg,
: > where at some point Jude Law's character just says something
: > that he did not expect he would say. The movie is supposed to
: > play in virtual reality in the game and the woman who is with
: > him in the movie, and who is a a game programmer in "real life",
: > a character played by Jennifer Jason Leigh, just says that in
: > the game their some things preprogrammed into the characters,
: > even into the ones that the human players assume, just to make
: > sure that the story evolves and does not get stuck somewhere.
: > Very much a Pisces mother/son theme, I would say.
: >
: > Maybe was a bad idea to mention the devil in a previous post
: > and maybe I could blame it on the transit of mean black moon
: > Lilith across the natal sun of alt.astrology.moderated, but
: > I guess the above piece of "modern mythology" fits better in
: > the end.
: >
: > Yesterday I read a post by E. H. Wollmann at alt.astrology
: > where in the end he quotes from a song by Joni Mitchell. Then
: > I went to youtube and found a live performance by her with her
: > strongest song "Woodstock" (which she missed in real life),
: > but this time in the early 70's and apparently a guy with a
: > beard came to the stage and disturbed her song. The guy a bit
: > later outside spoke of knowing her from earlier on and just
: > wanting to speak to her and about a fence that he wanted to
: > "paint invisible".
: >
: > I have seen such "invisible fences" quite a bit in prominent
: > people in astrology and I find that very sad. For example, I
: > once asked Alois Treindl of Astrodienst (astro.com) what he
: > thinks of my web site exactphilosophy.net. He replied something
: > along (do not have exact words any more) that he thinks that it
: > is a bit exaggerated to claim that name (exact and philosophy).
: >
: > Invisible fence: I apparently did not occur to him to reflect
: > on his own works and claims. A domain called "astro.com" does
: > in effect claim all of "astrology" and "astronomy", at least
: > most of the commercial (.com) aspects of it.
: >
: > Or when I met him in January 2005, and we briefly spoke about
: > my "discoveries.pdf" document he said that he thought that there
: > is nothing new in it with respect to the elements (my model of
: > the star signs), and referred to a book by a Swiss author.
: > I later got the book (for about 100 $US) and in it I just found
: > the usual about it, essentially what Aristotle had written, or
: > what you can find in other books, like Lilly and modern writers,
: > too, of course.
: >
: > At that moment I felt a strong "invisble fence". I could, of
: > course, have said something then, but it was clear to me that
: > that would not help Alois Treindl to open up and maybe take a
: > few days of from doing his things and taking a closer, a more
: > detailed and open look at what I had written.
: >
: > This has very much to do with opening up to life, c.f. my reply
: > to Ray Murphy and in my personal view exactly by following my
: > feelings instead of just my intellect and explicitly violating
: > the charter of aat, when posting my reply to Ray Murphy, I did
: > exactly that: open up to life.
: >
: > I do not know how long the prominent exponents in astrology
: > with Pluto in Leo will stick around, but not opening up to life
: > does in my very personal opinion and feeling not help to make
: > their remaining lives longer or happier. Just ignoring what is
: > behind the invisible fence is only consciously possible, but
: > unconsciously that is a burden that just gets heavier and
: > heavier the more you insist, the more you "dig".
: >
: > Also yesterday, I visited cpalondon.com and looked at the list
: > of seminar topics for 2008. The dates for all speakers are set
: > and the topics are also set, for all speakers except for the
: > director of cpalondon, Liz Greene. Now, there might be millions
: > of reasons for that, maybe just Saturn in Virgo and thus a lapse
: > in the usual cyclic ritual, but it does not feel like only that.
: >
: > I tried for 5 years, to get just a few new and interesting ideas
: > across, in the beginning also wrote to Liz Greene and Rob Hand,
: > and to others. Liz Greene never replied and Rob Hand just briefly
: > said that he would now focus on his studies (degree in history).
: > They never took the time and freedom to genuinely look at what
: > I contributed to astrology and now again, I am investing another
: > few hours on a saturday morning to write this in the sure and
: > almost certain knowledge that it will make no difference.
: >
: > Usenet is similar often. I did not want to join Ray's club at
: > yahoo groups just to see his graphics*. Just once in my life in
: > usenet I did not want to see others just reply very quickly and
: > not move the slightest fraction of an inch and instead get me
: > to invest hours of my life into writing another reply that is
: > then just as quickly wiped away again. Nothing is wrong with
: > Ray's post in terms of the charter of aat, nor is there anything
: > wrong with the post by itself. But summing over all posts and
: > replies by Ray and by many others that I met in usenet (not by
: > all), and this is certainly Virgo speaking, a million tiny
: > "wrongs" make in the end, over the years, up one "wrong" does
: > maybe justify in some way my reply, maybe not entirely, but in
: > my personal view and feeling it does.
: >
: > And, sadly even if I try I cannot get really ugly and even reply
: > quite polite and ineffective when I try to insult someone just
: > to see how that may be. (I only really lost continence once when
: > posting to usenet, that was in reply to Christine in 2003 or so.)
: >
: > )o+
: >
: > --
: > * Images are in the "Members Only" area.
: >
: >
CFA wrote:
: 2nd try
Invisible fence? ;-)
: Hermes wrote:
:
: >I tried for 5 years, to get just a few new and interesting ideas
: >across, in the beginning also wrote to Liz Greene and Rob Hand,
: >and to others. Liz Greene never replied and Rob Hand just briefly
: >said that he would now focus on his studies (degree in history).
: >They never took the time and freedom to genuinely look at what
: >I contributed to astrology
:
: It's not about you. As well-known writers, they can't risk being
: accused of stealing. So, they don't read ideas submitted to them.
I have been in research in physics and that was never my
approach, but it is true that many people who publish are
extremely conscious of and dependent on their image in public.
: If you want your work seen and respected in the astrological
: community, the best way is to interest an agent or a publisher.
I don't make the decisions round here. Very unlikely that
I will ever push for a publication about something that I
cannot directly prove, no matter how plausible and obvious
it might be. My site is about as far as it will go, maybe
later if I find something that is directly provable, it
might happen that I will approach astrology again from
that angle, but that seems not too likely.
If the astrological community is interested in the things
I contributed, they can contact me (or have their agents
do that or whatever). I will be glad to point them to a
few things, but no more, I guess. Time's up for that.
: >And, sadly even if I try I cannot get really ugly and even reply
: >quite polite and ineffective when I try to insult someone just
: >to see how that may be. (I only really lost continence once when
: >posting to usenet, that was in reply to Christine in 2003 or so.)
:
: Invisible fence? ;-)
What's the difference between an invisible fence and a
fence that is painted invisible (like that guy wanted to
do)? In the latter case, if you scratch the fence, it
becomes gradually visible again, in the former case...
: >)o+
:
: Ken
)o+
In article
<89c40dec-df86-4450-a550-11095ddc1646@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Libralover <Libralove@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 11:08 pm, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> > "Jyeshta" <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:thkom310eqvti6bjk11hd6ufnt6iistgl0@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:06:23 -0600, Libralover
> > > <Libralove@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > [...]
> >
> > >>The thing I see over and over again which drives me nuts (doesn't
> > >>take
> > >>much these days) is people pick and chose their "pet rocks" and "pet
> > >>points", then they push all the others into the drawer and laugh at
> > >>the folks who use a more varied vocabulary of many different symbols
> > >>to pull in some details.
> >
> > > I wasn't laughing at the use of asteroids. I felt it might be
> > > more worthwhile to put them into perspective in some way, since
> > > there are so many of them.
> >
> > >>I realized a long time ago that there was so much missing info using
> > >>just 10 objects and a couple of points (12 symbols). I used to look
> > >>at miillionaire's charts and see NOTHING different from a janitor's
> > >>chart.
> >
> > >>Then along came Chiron and my study of the declinations and now I
> > >>can tell you a very wealthy person at a glance at their natal as
> > >>long as it has Chiron and the deks.
> >
> > > And I've had similar experiences using other techniques, so I do
> > > respect your findings, although unless you publish a paper with a
> > > lot of examples I won't know exactly what your findings are.
> >
> > RM: Even that's not enough. For any claim to be credible we need to
> > also show that:
> > (a) No cherry picking occurred, and
> > (b) That the number of observations exceeded the expected number.
> >
> > If we look closely at all published work we will see that hardly
> > anyone ever satisfies (a), so they cannot proceed legitimately to (b).
> >
>
> You are without a clue, Ray. All scientists do is cherry pick a
> scenario that may shed some insight and results on the issue they want
> to solve and delve into.
>
> They start with an idea that many patients with "X" disease also seem
> to have A- blood type. So then they start narrowing further into all
> the issues that show connectivity between those two things until they
> finger out (with cherry picking things to run in tests) the
> connections and the cause OR they find there is no statistical
> connection, so they drop further studies.
>
> First, you MUST have a premise. Then you collect data along the lines
> of that premise and see if anything shows up to be beyond happenstance
> and indicates possible causality. Then they start zeroing into an
> issue that shows promise and the possible substances for more
> potential information and connectivity.
>
> You cannot do research without a premise and the premise(s) will
> always have "cherry picking" -- ONLY Blacks seem to have sickle cell
> disease, so what is different in the blood or the genome of blacks
> with sickle cell, for example.
>
> They do NOT research sickle cell by running data on every color human
> being in the entire world without sickle cell. They already know that
> for some reason most sickle cell anemia is in the African American
> descent people, so now they start "cherry picking" what they need to
> look at more carefully to find the cause -- substances in the blood,
> genetic miscoding, and so on. But they have an idea of where to start
> exploring. They do not start off looking at every freckle and
> substance in the sickle cell person's body. They "aim" (cherry pick)
> toward logically potential causes.
>
> So do not tell me, Ray Murphy, there is NO "cherry picking" in real
> scientific research. I have spent my life in scientific research
> publishing and you are dead wrong and without a remote clue on how
> scientific research is done.
>
> Just as Gail is wrong that 20,000 asteroids have to be included in a
> chart or none. What kind of illogical thought processes causes you
> people to think like that?
In my view, asteroids in astrology are like B52's:
You have to take a look before you make a judgment.
I have used asteroids and generally the principle of
association, many times successfully.
Just a few minutes ago, I looked at the asteroid with my name
and the one of someone else dear to me (plus also Elvis, just
for fun). Especially in synastry the hits of mostly the first
two were astonishing, to Sun's, Mercury and n.node, and also
significantly now, the two conjunct at a point of focus now
(Pluto/Jupiter/Sun/Mercury) at the solstice point - the two
will be exactly conjunct at the end of April in Pisces.
Anyway, do not feel like ruminating too much. Million things
that I could say. Maybe just that the n.node has just recently
entered Aquarius. Machines, progress, Utopias, Brazil, and a
lot more. Rests maybe only to say that machines are very good
at doing repetitive things, like following associations to
20'000 objects and a lot more things; exactly things that even
the most skilled astrologers are just not able to do in their
lifetimes, because their brains are clocked at only about 20ms
or so...
LL, I never said so, but of the astrologers that I have met in
cyberspace, and I have not met many outside of that, you are
clearly the best in terms of reading the signs, of finding the
key themes. I don't know if you do that all consciously in a
step-by-step fashion or more intuitively, and of course, every
issue that someone does pursue with some vigor, any pet theory,
does have some justification to it, in my personal experience,
even and maybe especially if the ones who take care of it are
not always equally gifted. I guess for Texas and Arizona, which
are quite saturnian, understanding the often illogical approaches
of the Cancer mother country (USA) are a pain. The Scarab, which
Liz Greene, and I guess others, too, link to Cancer, rolls his
dung ball to lay his eggs into it. It is just a ball of dung,
just like the immigrants into the US were once often considered
the "scum" that should leave by Europeans in the past, all those
extreme points of view. But often amazing what can emerge from
that. So, I would not quickly judge a composite just by the
apparent quality of its ingredients; the magic is in the mix...
I know it is a lot to ask from usenet (patched together from a
few shell scripts in late autumn 1979, with Elvis in the middle
of Libra, by the way, just like in alt.astrology.moderated, and
alt.astrology has Elvis in Libra, too, at the beginning; only
alt.astrology.tropical is different in that respect, in Cancer);
it is a lot to ask from usenet to consider other people's
points of view, not only to accept and mostly ignore them, but
also sometimes to take closer look, so unlike Sagittarius
(obviously the sun sign of Usenet, because it was stitched
together so improvisedly), who thinks as the oldest Fire sign
to have already seen (Fire) and considered it all. Jupiter is
already in Capricorn, Pluto will follow soon.
Two anecdotes, just for fun, and maybe for Xmas, related to
the mystery of association:
Story 1 is about Kellie Pickler, a US singer. I recently got
along with some merry xmas wishes the following youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juOQhTuzDQ0
There she is asked what the capital of Hungary is and she
quite obviously has no clue. Not to mean that she is stupid,
that would be confounding knowledge and cultural bias with
intelligence, a bit like in old intelligence tests where
a line drawing of a tennis court was drawn and obviously
rich english people had much better chances of recognizing
that than most other people on the globe...
Anyway, here is a pretty extreme example of what I would
call Venus' principle of Love/Affinity and associations.
Kellis Pickler is given a list of three US presidents (of
which I never heard the names). The middle one had a last
name of "Pierce". She chose that one because she has her
ears pierced, and, yes, is right!
Venus sees the world as just a part of herself that is there
essentially just for her own pleasure and for her own control
(maybe exaggerating a bit with Venus now in Scorpio, conjunct
my natal Neptune). So just like astrologers get maybe just
the clients that they can typically help with their own and
maybe sometimes quite biased pet theories, the coming together
in time and place of two things, the basic premiss of astrology
itself (!), in this case of her and the question, does allow
not only to make association with the question to find and
answer, but also to ask oneself, to look into the mirror.
Just very quickly the other one. I (and I guess also my father)
were used that you can eat bananas raw or you can slice them
into two and fry them in a pan or on a grill. So one day after
dinner my mother made some fried bananas. My father (Jupiter in
Sagittarius) jokingly asked whether they were fried, cooked or
steamed. My mother, without any hesitation, and apparently
without much interests said simply yes. I took me and my father
a few minutes to find out that in fact the answer had been 100%
accurate. My mother had added some water into the pan and used
a cover (I hope that's the right word) over the pan, so, they
really were fried, cooked and steamed. But the mystery remains,
of course, even if I had personally prepared the bananas it
would have taken me considerably longer to come up with the
right answer to my father's question. Can't do that consciously
and using true/false logic in that time. :)
You folks out there try some association sometime, like look
at 43 in the I Ching and compare it to Bush 43's presidency;
pretty striking in terms of symbolic match (or if the future
interest you - it does not interest me much, maybe with my
Saturn (Greek Cronos = Time) in Pisces I just don't want to
know, my own B52, I guess). Or anything...
Please everybody, I would really like to move on and not post
to usenet any more, except probably in some extreme situations.
Bye, everybody, merry xmas, happy new years, etc. :)
)o+
PS: Replies that quote this post are OK; they are always OK
if my posts have the "X-No-Archive" header set.
Jyeshta wrote:
[...]
: >Please everybody, I would really like to move on and not post
: >to usenet any more, except probably in some extreme situations.
:
: <laughing> Who is making you post?
When I post, I usually feel when the post is approved
and then when people read it and how they feel about
it and also when somebody gets angry, for example, and
prepares to reply. Obviously, I cannot directly verify
who reads when, but who writes roughly when and what
kind of reply becomes evident once the post arrives.
I have lots of planets in water signs, a grand trine.
So I hang on to things and to people. This makes it
difficult to end things for me. Or maybe more precisely
things take longer, but once they happen, they are
already at a stage where there is realistically no
turning back. Difficult to tell if what is holding me
back is more inside of me or outside of me and, if it
is outside of me, if it is conscious to the people who
read and/or post here or whether it is maybe from some
people who rarely or never say a word in usenet.
I got natal Pythia conjunct my natal north node, which
fits well with helical rising/setting - don't remember
which planet exactly - star Muezzin, and another one
that is sort of a Cheiron star. And Sedna transiting
very slowly across my n.node is a heavy burden, makes
it effectively impossible for me to actually do much
about life at the moment. Still, usenet must end.
Gimme a Pikka Bird, or the thing that looks roughly
like a bird and manages reverse temporal engineering,
and let me go with Odysseus at the end of Plato's
republic, the only Greek hero who was not at least
50% divine, the fox (Kafka), but if the little fox,
after nearly completing the crossing, gets his tail
in the water, there is nothing that would further,
or 66, because he does not strive, nobody finds it
possible to strive with him. ;)
Maybe that is just Hermes in Pisces opposite Saturn
in Virgo, asking the core to maybe open up at least
privately that the world is bigger than what she or
anybody, or Hermes, can understand. In 3D, there are
5 platonic solids, which Plato associated with the 5
elements. In 5 dimensions and higher, there are also
equivalent hyperbodies, but only 3 of them, sort of
a hypercube, a hypertetrahedron and a hyper octahedron.
But 4D is special, because there are 6 bodies, quite
crazy ones with lots of components, and especially
there is one that is not equivalent to the five in 3D.
Here is a simulation of how a projection of that thing
into 3D (actually to 2D) of this thing rotating looks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:24-cell.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-cell
So far nobody in this world, no Einstein whatever, has
apparently been able to imagine more than 3 dimensions
(plus motion/time) in his/her head. Who would be so
bold to claim than some correlations between any kinds
of things in this world might not be connected in ways
that human beings are simply not able to perceive or
that likely most people, with their biased interests
due to their birth time/place, are not well able to
see the usefulness of certain methods? Science, math
and using computers can remove some of that bias, so,
yes, I propose to look at all 20'000 objects and at
all kinds of things that are associated to each other.
Science and technology are often better at things that
people are not good at, and vice versa. It is very easy
to teach a computer so simply follow association, to go
by what is similar. That is much easier than to teach a
computer how to analyze a chart using just the 10 or so
usual planets. During industrialization, things that
used to be produced by one person, are now produced in
many separate steps, sometimes still by people who do
the same repetitive thing over and over again or, more
recently, by machines or robots. Also different materials
are suitable for industrial production than were in the
past when one person made a thing. Is that a good thing?
That depends on where you are standing, people with more
planets in Aquarius (n.node now) probably would rather
say yes, and Leos rather no, but even there the opinion
is not so blunt and simple, I would guess.
So, once more, please anybody reading this and hanging on
to me, consciously or unconsciously, please let me go and
maybe if that is too difficult, take maybe a look at older
posts, there was some quite interesting stuff there, too,
in my personal opinion, worth a closer look, especially
considering how quickly often people read in usenet. And
if there is nobody who would really significantly hang on,
and all would be neutral about it, then all the better. :)?
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/links.html
CFA wrote:
: And getting astrologers to agree on that massive a scale is like
: herding puddles of mercury on top of a bowling ball.
Actually the recipe for that is astonishingly easy :)
a) put a drop of Mercury on top of a bowling ball
b) let it split into many small drops and just let them
flow and then drop down (do nothing to prevent that)
c) wait until Saturn (Greek Cronos=Time) goes retrograde
d) then, like in a movie rolling backwards, the individual
drops will just jump and flow up the bowling ball and
cuddle back together on top of it (Scarab's ball)
e) oops, that already begun, just about 5 days ago... ;)
Merry Xmas or whatever, also to those unhappy, beaten by
fate, ones who have n. Saturn just about 7 minutes before
the point where it went retrograde. And if only that nasty
cold I got recently would go away or at least either the
sun would one day come out of the high mist or instead it
would snow, either way making the outside world look just
a little bit more pleasant...
Quiz question: Why do mutable signs have to be more
stubborn than fixed ones? Exactly because they have to
get them out of their tunnel modes. (The cardinal ones,
in turn, just ignore the mutable ones and often just try
something else if they encounter too much resistance.)
In that sense, an especially merry xmas to those mutable
ones, with also some planets in fixed signs, hit now
naturally by hard Saturn transits, or maybe it is often
also just as much such transits to planets to one's most
significant others who demand more attention or maybe
even "faith" in their views than usual...
There are at least 50 ways to do astrology (just kidding,
there are a lot more, of course). If person A says that
she/he never saw any effect of planet/etc. P, and person
B says the opposite, one should not focus on P or not
P, but instead ask: "what exactly do you do?" My mother
once gave me when I was still quite young a recipe how to
cook something (sorry, with Mars in Cancer, cooking/mothers
seem to be a recurring theme), but forgot to tell me to
add salt, too. Obviously things did not taste too well,
i.e. it did not work in my book...
I have seen many approaches to astrology work well, if
one just thinks into them and uses them in the right context
of fitting methods, and, possibly, maybe even likely, for
some charts, some methods fit better or even work better,
for example, for a rather saturnian person, I would maybe
rather try a more traditional approach or at least one that
is more condensed, more restricted, in terms of the number
of things to use, but then again, Saturn is often also very
dual and contradictory...
"Have another cherry..." (Jack Nicholson's character to the
three "Witches of Eastwick" ;)
Pick yours to explain recent events here:
* transits of Jupiter, Sun and Mercury across Pluto
* transit of Mean Black Moon Lilith across aam's natal Sun
* Saturn in early Virgo and stationing, with hard aspects
to early planets in mutuable signs (my favorite single
factor, by the way)
* in addition the Saturn-Hermes opposition
* in addition some planets dear to anybody out here?
* in addition Pluto dying, still strong, but fading and
not longer so deep and cold, but instead struggling
(because Pluto is not longer objectively a planet and
people are starting gradually to realize that)
* due to the discovery of Eris a little more than usual of
strive instead of love
* Eris has to do with racism towards people from Africa maybe
just because Empedocles considered elements to consist of
love and strive (philia and naikos), the former related
to Venus/Aphrodite <=> Africa, and the latter one of the
many daughters of Eris ?
* or is it maybe simply retrograde Mars in Cancer, the US
problem of keeping things together (Cancer a water sign,
water-3-venus in one of my favorite elementary methods),
and yet a lot of strive, within Cancer (4th sign, thus
4-earth-Mars, again within that method), plus the usual
drive to separate and polarize opinions, with Mars and
Uranus in Gemini
* or some sideral view, or link to the 5th trilogy of the
hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, where one needs a Pikka
bird to cross a focussed herd of perfectly normal beasts
(buffalo's/bulls/Taurus/"bullheads"), in order to reach
the other side, sort of like a desert in Arizona there,
where there is someone hanging around in shiny clothes
called "The King", related maybe to asteroid Elvis now
being in Aquarius now.
* or maybe following associations further into the book,
what if Discordianism (Discordia is the roman equivalent
of Greek Eris) is the key theme, with the Arthur's daughter
Random standing for the discordian theme of chaos; in the
book much is directly about the discovery of planet X,
Persephone in that book, and about astrology; the time after
the discovery of a planet always being colored by its effects.
* or maybe Sedna is often overlooked too much, since Eris
and Pluto are two of a kind now, but Sedna stands so far
alone and is, helas, just now in a long, long transit
across my natal northern node, and someone's n. Jupiter,
not the best constellation for the chosen profession...
* now that wasn't even 50 different looks at the same matrix
(50 being related to the moon; see Robert Graves)
* what about stellar parans, horaries, i ching, numerology,
drawings in the sand, improvising, and so on, etc., etc. ?
* if you want a uniform, just one way of looking at things,
then look no further than at the nodes; the n.node has
just recently entered Aquarius, thus a "superflat" zoo of
objects and/or methods is essentially Aquarius and, is also
the more fruitful, more happy way to go at the moment.
If anything in astrology is useful for a happier life, that
would be my best guess: avoid to do instinctively too much
into the direction of the southern node, the more lunar one,
and instead try consciously (sun, day, conscious versus moon
night, instinctive)...
Oops, public speech should be short and up to the point...
Thus:
Instinctively one tends to do more along the path of the
southern, descending node (night/moon). For exactly that
reason, often *consciously* trying to do more along the
lines of the northern, ascending node (sun/day) tends to
make more happy.
Please note that this does not mean that one should do
more into the direction of the northern node in absolute
terms, only that unconsciously, instinctively the "former
live inheritance" will be foremost reaction and will thus
create an imbalance that only a conscious (solar/n.node)
individual can put back into more balance.
In my personal view, that has a lot to do with Odysseus,
the only Greek hero who was not 50% divine. His conscious
choice to have himself tied to the mast before the sirens
started singing has saved his live and soul, if that is
not reverse temporal engineering, and considering Kafka's
extraordinary mutual role of both the fox Odysseus and the
purposely silent sirens, complete the circle, or almost:
In the southern hemisphere, the northern node is the one
that is descending, the one that should go, while one should
consciously emphasize the southern, ascending one, now thus
Leo. Obviously, doing a such a thing in an environment where
almost everybody posting is from the northern hemisphere is
something that requires a lot of dedication which will then
naturally often appear as very stubborn or even worse to the
limited fools who sort of judge that "line drawing of the
tennis" court just with their own eyes, thus confounding
mutual agreement within a certain group with reality (to the
degree that there is such a thing).
Kudos Ray, and please maybe read my posts in about 9.5 years
or so when the nodes are opposite to now, so that where you
are they will make sense compared to where you are now, and,
if you do, I would also do the same with your posts... :)
Arghhh... too long again for public speech, so one more try:
Ascending node: Try to do consciously into that direction,
but also not overdo that to the extreme. That makes happy.
Merry Xmas or whatever. (And, yes, I still would prefer to
stop to post, even though the experience is ambivalent to
some degree - please let me go or contact me directly...)
(nodes: www.sidis.net , search site for drops of mercury)
Did I mention that I have Pythia conjunct my n.node and
also someone's Jupiter there ? I guess that makes me lucky
in the end with following sudden impulses, even if at first
it does not look at all like it ? :)
)o+
--
"But who would claim that a sign, just because its cause
has been revealed, ceases to be a sign." Vera Linhartova
Kjell wrote:
: Jyeshta mentioned cryogenics in another thread, which started a line
: of thoughts with me.
:
: What if it becomes possible, say, to freeze someone for a century and
: then wake them up? Or something with the "new physics" that opens up
: for pure time travel? (To exclude logical inconsistencies, make it
: possible only to travel futurewards.)
Actually, current physics does allow for something that is
effectively such travel towards the future. According to the
general theory of relativity, if you board a spaceship and
fly away and back very quickly (close to the speed of light)
or if you fly close to a large mass, like a black hole, your
local clock will run more slowly than clocks back at home.
So, when you return to Earth, much more time will have elapsed
on Earth than it did for you.
: If something like this would occur -- could a person with a 20th
: century birth chart accomodate to the transits a couple of centuries
: away? (Buildings and cities can, but they aren't persons. I think.)
:
: If it was possible, what in a chart would signify "time travels"?
That kind of forward travel that I described usually goes
under the name of "twin paradox". One twin stays on Earth,
the other flies away and comes back to Earth where he meets
his twin who has now become an old man.
Some quick associations related to time travel:
- Air: Thinking is sort of an "internal time travel". In order
to think, one constantly compares things in the mind, things
that have been memorized, or, maybe equivalently, the mind
constantly jumps back and forth between different pasts and
the present. Or, to make this not only smell like Gemini and
Mercury, balancing different items/issues in the mind can
lead to more calmness in the mind, also as opposed to maybe
feelings that seem rather to flow, to come and go, thus the
association of Libra with freedom. Or, maybe more aquarian,
the look forward into the future, progress, looking back at
most unconsciously, maybe.
- Mythology: I am not aware of any piece of mythology in which
there is time travel. Maybe not too astonishing, if really
related to Air. The past 6000 years or so have been Ages of
non-Air signs (Taurus, Aries, Pisces). In that light, the
appearance of the idea of time travel in or near the Age of
Aquarius would fit.
- Prometheus: His name means "forethought", as opposed to his
brother Epimetheus, "afterthought", i.e. Prometheus thinks
before he acts, Epimetheus acts first, and only afterwards
realizes what he did. He married Pandora, who opened the box.
I guess this is also aquarian in the sense described above,
Epimetheus being the unconscious half of the two that looks
back, while Prometheus looks only forward, so that Aquarius
is often cheated by his own unconscious side. Prometheus is
usually associated with Aquarius in psychological astrology
(Liz Greene, etc.). Side note: Because Prometheus once stole
fire from the Gods to bring it to people down on earth, Zeus
had him tied to a rock and had an eagle pick out part of his
liver every day, which would then grow back over night (i.e.
unconsciously), and the eagle would come back the next day.
That is until Hercules liberated Prometheus.
- Leo: Hercules wears a lion's pelt. Liz Greene associates Leo
with religion, which apparently comes from a word that means
"to reconnect", i.e. time travel (backwards). Maybe not too
astonishing, considering that Leo is the 5th sign of the
zodiac and Mercury is retrograde pretty much exactly 1/5th of
the time, i.e. if the cycle started in spring, the retrograde
phase would start just at the beginning of Leo.
This appears maybe to condense to themes around Air/Mercury
and the axis Aquarius-Leo, or maybe not ;)
: What would the chart of the inventor look like?
:
: Or if a baby was borned a century after having been conceived?
PS: First snow today in Switzerland in the plain this winter!
I think at least I can accommodate to that... :)
)o+
--
http:/www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Jyestha wrote:
: This is interesting. I believe that the Sphinx in Egypt was
: built during the Age of Leo, earlier than scientists commonly
: speculate.
:
: I also think perhaps during one of the Ages of Gemini (the most
: recent, I think, if I remember right, was when symbols first
: began to be carved or written, and language developed more
: fully), or probably Aquarius, the Water Bearer, beings from
: another world arrived here and changed the evolution of what was
: to become humanity. It explains the missing link problem - the
: fact that certain species of advanced primates became extinct and
: only our ancestors, who lived near lakes or other bodies of water
: and were less nomadic, remained (this is just barely remembered
: content from an anthropology program I once saw). I think this
: because other still extant primates have not evolved into humans,
: whereas somehow our ancestors did. But who really knows.
One thing that can be said for sure about archeology is that
the time something first appeared tends to keep slippin',
slippin' into the past... ;)
Currently the oldest *known* temple complex is Gobekli Tepe
in Turkey, a quite recent archeological sensation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
Radiocarbon measurements indicate that the beginnings of the
temple complex might go back to 11'000 BC, i.e. Age of Leo.
(The results are still preliminary, only a very small fraction
of the complex has been excavated, but scientists appear to be
confident that this thing was certainly already there around
9000 BC, which is around the time people started to settle and
to become farmers, corresponding in time to the Age of Cancer).
What is maybe most astonishing to me is the symbols that are
carved into the stone. Some pictures:
http://www.eso-garden.com/images/uploads_bilder/gobekli_tepe_garden_of_eden_1.jpg
http://paleoberkay.atspace.com/turkce/images/samanlar/gobekli2.jpg
http://www.urgeschichte.org/db_GobekliTepe_Enten-Keiler-Saule9.jpg
http://www.urgeschichte.org/db_GobekliTepe_Fuchs-Pfeiler9.jpg
Although they depict mostly animals, it does look already
quite abstract, so maybe written language could have evolved
earlier than currently assumed - last time I checked, the
oldest *known* written document was from roughly 3000 BC,
i.e. Age of Taurus.
The director of the excavation, Klaus Schmidt, speculates that
maybe "First came the temple, then the city", i.e. the temple
(religion, reconnect, Leo(-Aquarius)) was built by people who
were not settlers, yet, but because they collaborated to build
the temple, a meeting place evolved, setting the foundation for
maybe later a settlement, a city, around it. According to the
wikipedia article above, the oldest ancestors of our crop
species appear to have come from some place not far from the
Gobekli Tepe site.
About the Sphinx in Giza: I looked around a bit again on the
web and there appear to be some quite convincing arguments that
the Sphinx *in its current shape* is a bit older that thought
so far, before Chephren, but still Age of Taurus:
http://www.gizabuildingproject.com/art_reader1.php
There are speculations that the head of the sphinx has originally
been the head of a lion and later changed to the head of one of
the pharaohs. The head is facing east, towards sunrise, maybe just
to great the sun (Leo), or maybe even eager to travel into the
future, into the new morning. ;)
Instead of going towards speculations by Robert Bauval and others
(see also odyssey.zip on my site for a little about that; is also
interesting that there is a lot of focus on water or rain having
caused erosion of the Sphinx - Aquarius the water bearer/pourer),
here an idea how the Sphinx in Giza could *still* be Age of Leo:
Maybe it was first a bigger sculpture and at some time, say Age
of Taurus, it had become worn down so much by the weather that
people decided to take off some material all around it, thus
recreating a new, a bit smaller and more modest, reborn Sphinx,
with a new surface indistinguishable from something just then
carved out completely of a hill there...
At the front entrance of the main building of Swiss Life, the
largest Swiss life insurance company, there used to be two life
size sculptures of Lions, quite elegant and naturalistic ones.
A few years ago, the building has been renovated and now there
are two different, smaller lions there, pretty small and less
naturalistic, but still special. I am not sure, but I think I
heard once that they were carved out of the material of the
former lions... (Google would not tell me; I think that also
the two pillars next to the lions have been thinned then).
Here is a photo of the new ones, taken this morning:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/swisslife.jpg
The Swiss Life logo (see the lion...?):
http://www.metadesign.ch/photos/case_swisslife/swisslife_gross.jpg
Here is another mysterious lion sculpture, the smiling lion
of Kea or Iulis, carved of the stone at the site, like also
the Sphinx in Giza (unlike the Pyramids in Giza, for example):
http://www.greektravel.com/greekislands/kea/photos/lion4sm.JPG
http://www.greece.org/poseidon/work/Islands2/cyclades/kea/Lion_of_Kea.htm
http://lh6.google.com/sebastianlschulz/Rpp4mLR7NiI/AAAAAAAAADk/-ArGSPRQu2s/_MG_3123.JPG?imgmax=576
Usually dated to about 600 BC, the sculpture is on a small island
near Athens, the Virgo sector of the Zodiac mapped to Greece with
Delphi at the center, see Jean Richer,
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/images/platoo1.jpg
so that would maybe suggest some older roots back in times when
that sector was a fixed sign, i.e. at least Age of Taurus.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Jyeshta wrote:
: Hi Hermes,
:
: This is a treasure trove! Thank you so much for all this
: wonderful content.
You're welcome :)
: I think what's fascinating about our great Ages is that their
: symbols never fade away during the following Ages, but continue
: on as living and still-present representations of our development
: and evolution. There is a wonderful book about the great Ages by
: Alice O. Howell, but I can't remember the title at the moment.
:
: About stone lions, there are of course some beautiful ones in NYC
: flanking the steps of the public library. Perhaps to represent
: the strength that comes with learning and knowledge? The
: expansion of consciousness (Sun) via reading and learning and the
: special relationship we have with another's consciousness when we
: embark on the very intimate act of meeting
: mind-to-mind/consciousness to consciousness, via each book? I
: see a lot of Solar energy in that, and also Aquarius via the
: discipline of Saturn to acquire knowledge, and even the influence
: of Uranus if you see an affinity to it with Aquarius, in the act
: of discovery which always accompanies learning.
:
: I didn't mean to write much - just to thank you, but I guess I
: got a little carried away by the ideas. :-)
Thanks, very interesting, too. I googled for the two lions at
the NYC public library and it is very beautiful how they rather
open it up more than actually giving the expression of guarding
the concrete books, and instead rather of ensuring open public
access to knowledge.
: Again, thank you so much for all this. There is a lot here to
: keep me busy for awhile in this post!
In that sense, just one thing that I noticed and which
should probably be mentioned with regard to the temple
complex at Gobekli Tepe: What if these T-shaped pillars,
with often animals carved into them, and arranged in
circles, are mirror images of constellations in the sky?
Two images, a photo and a computer generated image:
http://www.landesmuseum.de/website/dyndata/SOA2007_monumente__steinkreis.jpg
http://www.urgeschichte.org/DieBeweise/GobekliTepe/Gopekli_Tepe_BdW_2003-05_700px.jpg
I think, I heard often the argument that agriculture got
people interested into astronomy in the first place, so
that they could better plan when to plant seeds and when
to harvest. But what if this was also the other was round,
what if it was first a religious (Age of Leo) impulse to
be connected with the world, with the stars, and *after*
that and because the religious center brought people to
one place, people started to settle (Age of Cancer)?
I remain curious... :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Kjell wrote:
: I found a quote that in all likeliness isn't about astrology, but very
: well could have been. Are there more quotelovers out there, that could
: think of quotes to add?
:
: "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future."
: --- Niels Bohr
Here is one which it is maybe not obvious at first:
"You like someone for their virtues,
but you love someone for their faults."
(from a movie I once saw, don't remember which one)
Two random sample interpretations:
"someone" => "astrology"
"their" => "its"
"someone" => "Virgo/Pisces"
"their" => "her"
Or the other way round:
"If you want someone to love you, try to impress
them with your faults, not with your virtues."
Again, you might be tempted to replace as follows:
"someone to love you" => "astrology to be recognized"
"them" => "the public"
"your" => "its"
Or maybe even:
"love you" => "elect you president of the USA" ?
But then again, the quotes are maybe more beautiful
in their original generality...
Happy retrograde mercury Valentine, in retrospect*:
What measures/creates time: The sun moving across the
sky, making day and night, and the seasons.
Who travels in time: Hermes/Mercury, at most visible
just after the sun has gone down or just before it has
come up, in the twilight... Hermes who, in the Homeric
Hymns, made a lyre at daytime, stole Apollon's cattle
at night, then after having been traced down by Apollon,
trades the cattle in retrospect legally for the lyre -
the Age of Taurus for the Age of Aries, art for matter,
waves and numbers and math for agriculture, air for
earth (leo: burning fire, earth(wood)=>air(smoke)...)
(A bit biased or incomplete, thus faulty, maybe, but
see the two quotes above... ;)
)o+
* Posted 5 March 2008 at 0:05 (sent back in time ;)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
One more:
"You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you..."
(From a 1970's song by Carly Simon)
Variations:
"You're so vain, you probably think this chart is about you..."
"You're so vain, you probably think this transit is about you..."
"You're so vain, you probably think this post/thread is about you..."
"You're so vain, you probably think this quote is about the world
rather than just about you..."
Joy in repetition, Mars in Gemini? ;)
Relativity: Pisces, experience of a complete cycle of signs,
almost perfectly balanced with each sign's view and approach
to the world countered by its opposite sign, thus relativating
each view, and, yet, that balance itself is utterly biased...
Time: What would time be without space, without love, without
anything in the world. What would anything be without something
else to relate it too, what would happiness be without sadness,
what would gain be without loss, what would a life be without
reflection, without mental time travel, without Mercury...
"All said, the reader often seems to unconsciously, beadfully frown
right on mere security; intuitively, mindful of niobic, aquaintant
wiring of really long drops, brought yet putting a vane link, illusive,
nearly adept." (21 April 2001, 15:23, 15 min, snow outside)
By me, clue is 5th word from the end of the end. Puzzles have
come more into focus lately, at least in my experience, so maybe
it is all about time (Pluto in Capricorn, Saturn in Virgo...),
or is that just me "You're so vain...", even sun and mercury of
Barak Hussein Obama reflect mine, so maybe I myself will become
president of the USA in autumn! Or am I dreaming all of this?
Hope this is not too strange... Fellini comes to my mind ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Apollia wrote:
[just picking out one, no time to reply to all...]
: "When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as
: fate."
:
: --- C.G. Jung. Collected sometime between 6/28/2004 and 7/1/2004.
About a month before that, I had the idea that my site is
now about, namely to define elements as follows:
[See my site for more details; I will get to the quote further
below in detail and link it to the model in quite an astonishing,
albeit a bit abstract, way that is hopefully still accessible.]
(open your eyes for the first time in your life and see:)
in/out: space
rest/move: time
(so there are 4 things, define them as elements:)
FIRE:= out+move
AIR:= in+rest
EARTH:= out+rest
WATER:= in+move
(observe what happens:)
elements transform into each other,
will has some influence on these, but not full control
5th Element (free will/fate):= what transforms the elements
(observe further:)
outside typically effort is needed to get things moving,
inside it is typically the opposite (look e.g. at a tree,
close your eyes and try to keep the tree at rest...)
FIRE and AIR are active
WATER and EARTH are passive
in/out = soft/hard
(put them in a circle - more experimental idea:)
FIRE - AIR - WATER - EARTH - FIRE
Now the above quote contains very similar words (in, out, fate),
but let me first present a different version of the quote.
I found quotes on the internet in german that seem to match the
above quote ("Eine innere Situation, die man sich nicht bewusst
gemacht hat, taucht aussen als Schicksal auf"), but more often
I found this instead:
"Was du nicht bewusst berührst, geschieht dir als Schicksal."
Directly translated:
"What you do not consciously touch, happens to you as fate."
Different emphasis, not so much implying to make something
actually conscious, but rather just to touch it so that you
know it is there and you can feel it (fitting quote for a Leo
sun, hinting at the wounded king in the story of the Grail).
Since none of the sites I found gave any references, it might
well be that Jung said both or none in exactly that form.
Now if I use both my definitions of the elements and the ones
commonly used in astrology:
AIR - in/rest,active - Conscious mind, thinking, logic, ...
WATER - in/move,passive - Feelings, instinct, ...
EARTH - out/rest,passive - Reality, state of things, ...
FIRE - out/move,active - Imagination, vision, intuition, ...
Some parts of the cycle:
EARTH->WATER: The outer reality, the hard immutable parts
of it are what creates feelings inside, gets things moving
inside. (Imagine maybe a scene with lots of movement and
then stop time, so that everything rest - in my feeling it
is exactly at that moment when emotions start to appear.)
WATER->EARTH: Emotions have no direct effect on the world,
the frustration with the hard outer world rather increases
feelings and does not create movement (not directly, see
further below).
FIRE->AIR: Observation of nature, of things that happen are
the basis of insights, of laws about nature. This is more
so for things that move than for things that rest, also,
but not only, because in most situations more moves than
rests.
AIR->FIRE: Creating motion outside needs a conscious act of
will, an active stable decision that then leads to some
movement outside.
WATER->AIR: Emotions, motion inside, just like motion outside
(FIRE), can be observed and laws can be found in it, thus
made stable and more objectively detached.
AIR->WATER: Conversely, conscious insights can have a calming,
healing effect inside, too.
Now, let me put the puzzle pieces together:
If you do not touch your unconscious side, your feelings, i.e.
if AIR does not look at WATER, no laws are detected, no willful
action aries, that would create motion outside (FIRE) and thus
would change the state of things outside (EARTH). In that case,
EARTH remains as it is, thus fated and feelings (WATER) towards
it do not change.
On the other hand, if one consciously touches ones feelings,
insights and actions can result that improve the situation.
Note that in my feeling in the first version "made conscious"
might be a bit dangerous (Pluto in Libra), because if you try
to make all feelings conscious and do not just gently touch
them, there is a danger of eliminating them and thus making
the inner world much less rich. Libra, always both a deep
insight and a fault, maybe just tossed in for a more balanced
beauty (Venus).
I hope that was not completely too abstract for people here.
If only there were a few physics researchers in this world who
would know a bit about astrology, they would immediately grasp
the essence of what I wrote above (although not necessarily
fully agree, I hope); I am just doing the same that I would do
when thinking about fundamental issues in physics (which this
is, too, here, I would say). I guess that is the prize for
being first - being inseparably first and alone... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Axel Harvey wrote:
: I was thinking more of the general long-term effects
: of Pluto in Capricorn, and the timing of the ingress
: vis-à-vis New York was more of an indication that
: the current world-wide economic crunch - which is
: hardly news - will have NYC as its major focus.
In light of 9/11, it is maybe worth noting that Saturn
is trine Pluto, which gives the whole thing (at least
so far) a relatively smooth and harmonic angle.
)o+
chompie wrote:
: How perfectly delightful! Thank you ever so much, Hermes, and may I
: say, I love anything in an orange box with a brown ribbon! ;)
You're welcome! :) Actually had to google to figure out what
those "orange boxes" are about...
By the way, as I found along with that, the boxes are orange
because during WWII the only single color cardboard that they
could obtain in occupied France was orange...
I guess fits not too bad with Hermes, no actual plan by Hermes,
and yet lucky in a way, sagittarian, announcing what remained
after the fates have claimed all other colors for matters of
life and death, after Scorpio, announcing for Zeus/Jupiter...
Or something like that... knock on wood.
)o+
: On Mar 23, 3:10 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: > Axel Harvey wrote:
: >
: > : I was thinking more of the general long-term effects
: > : of Pluto in Capricorn, and the timing of the ingress
: > : vis-`-vis New York was more of an indication that
: > : the current world-wide economic crunch - which is
: > : hardly news - will have NYC as its major focus.
: >
: > In light of 9/11, it is maybe worth noting that Saturn
: > is trine Pluto, which gives the whole thing (at least
: > so far) a relatively smooth and harmonic angle.
: >
: > )o+
Ray Murphy wrote:
: If people who are born under the sign of Taurus and Virgo have equal
: access to the sport of Basketball, then those with Sun in Virgo elect
: to play that sport at a much higher rate than the Sun in Taurus
: people.
:
: See the attached progressive-graph in date order for the 502 people
: listed in Astrodatabank Version 3 who were born in either of those
: signs. There are 285 Virgo and 217 Taurus people born during a 66 year
: period from 1913 to 1979.
:
: The observation is statistically significant at about the 0.03 level
: when a comparison is made between those 2 signs in isolation.
:
: Noon times have been used for all births.
:
: [Graph has been posted in the Files section of the Google Group
: "Tropical astrology Research"]
: http://tropical-astrology-research.googlegroups.com/web/Basketballers.gif?gda=U2MV2kUAAAAR4o_U4Mb1ar5u1N08e_lzoV3BSWdITZ_Q3wqNGgyUGOG2sVwGLF-i21hNBTL4y6OkNTLimnrPyTN8pl8xhyRsrnbirdOKW0UubKy7Gu2GBQ&gsc=1rI-yAsAAABS4Ee1kLUl647TiZkjb1-K
I would like to formulate a comment in form of 4 questions.
Neutral factual questions that scientists might ask when
they look at the data.
a) The vertical axis is apparently number of people (born
in the respective sign for each of the two curves). What
exactly is the horizontal axis? Sum of birth counts of
Taurus sun and Virgo sun plotted in order of birth date?
Or is it simply time (1913-1979)? If both possibilities
would give similar graphs, could you elaborate why?
b) What is the total number of people born with Taurus sun
resp. with Virgo sun in the same time frame in your data?
c) What are the numbers of basketball players with the sun
in the 10 other signs, for the same time span? And what
are the total numbers of people born with the sun in
each of the other 10 signs in that time frame?
d) How many other attributes of people did you look at in
your data analysis until you found something like this
that looks significant at first sight in the graph? Did
you take that into account in your statistical analysis?
If yes, in which way?
Sorry, no symbolic content in this post; liked the story
in Pandora's post, though. ;) Might be a while before I
get to write another reply...
)o+
--
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Ray Murphy wrote:
: 239 -- ARI
: 217 -- TAU
: 224 - GEM
: 277 - CAN
: 268 - LEO
: 285 - VIR
: 242 - LIB
: 230 - SCO
: 228 - SAG
: 219 - CAP
: 246 - AQU
: 236 - PIS
: ----------------
: 2911 - SUM
: ----------------
[...]
: (1) I had a database of 41,249 people in 100 categories.
: (2) Filtered for all Virgo's and found 3347
I have simulated what the outcome would be if the
distribution is random. I generated 2911 random
numbers between 1 and 12. Example output:
254 : 1
244 : 2
248 : 3
229 : 4
234 : 5
251 : 6
246 : 7
222 : 8
277 : 9
231 : 10
249 : 11
226 : 12
In other words, the random number was 254 times '1',
244 times '2' , and so on.
The smallest number here is 222, the largest is 277.
Difference 55.
For the basketballer data, the smallest number is 217,
the largest number is 285. Difference 68.
Next, I did the whole thing 10000 times, and each time
I calculated the maximal difference and tested if it was
68 or more. Of the 10000 times, I got a difference of 68
or higher exactly 932 times.
In other words, the probability with random data to get
a result similar to the basketballer data is about 10%.
In other words, this happens about once in 10 tries, or
about 10 times for 100 categories.
For fun, I picked out one of my randomly generated data
sets that had a difference of exactly 68 and plotted it:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/graph.gif
I am too lazy now to *calculate* the probabilities - in
my experience statistics has always been something very
difficult to get right by logical thinking - thus it is
maybe related to Virgo?
Quick symbolic comments:
- Grand trine in earth signs, so not astonishing that
something about Virgo and Taurus comes up.
- North lunar node conjunct Neptune, take technological
and scientific progress with a grain of salt.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Apollia wrote:
[...]
: Very neat, thanks for all this.
:
: The only possible problem I can think of is the possibility that an
: equal, random distribution of 12 sun signs might not be the way things
: actually are in nature.
:
: I wish I could find an established, credible mainstream scientific
: source for this idea, but, page 7 of the PDF file on this site
: mentioned earlier in the thread: http://www.astroinvestigators.com/index.html
: states that more people are born in summer and less around Christmas,
: and births also vary depending on the time of day. No idea if that's
: true.
That was the point of question b) and of the second part
of question c) in my first reply. I got two numbers back
regarding that in Ray's reply:
>>>> (1) I had a database of 41,249 people in 100 categories.
>>>> (2) Filtered for all Virgo's and found 3347
41249/3347 = 12.34, close to 12, which I expected. As far
as I know there are differences across the year in numbers
of births, but they are relatively small. But maybe I am
wrong on that. I think cura.free.fr has quite some stuff
around statistical research in astrology and I think I saw
something in the past there about distribution of births
in the year. As far as I remember one element is that in
all countries births are more frequent about 9 months
after holidays. Anyway, should make no difference in the
case of the basketball players.
I have only seen one statistical result about astrology
that has convinced me. That was in a book by former German
playboy Gunter Sachs. He plotted many graphs and claimed
to have seen something significant there, all sun sign
astrology. Was unfortunately in my judgement just noise
(as far provability goes - i.e. in the sense "absence of
proof is not proof of absence" - cannot exclude that some
of it was still real, is just was not provably so). With
one notable exception:
There were significantly more marriages in which both
partners had the same sun sign. Difficult to use this as
proof of astrology since almost everybody on this planet
knows her or his sun sign, but still interesting. I do
not feel like people are thinking "Hey, he/she has the
same sun sign, that must work well together".
Besides that people know their sun sign, trying to prove
things with sun signs alone has also the problem of seasons.
Maybe Virgos are on average taller than Taureans because
they are longer in the belly in spring/summer, where maybe
(I am speculating here!) there is more of hormone so-and-so
in the blood of the mother than in autumn/winter. Taller
would also mean quite directly more predestined to play
basketball. And so on... With, say, Mars (or other planets)
in Virgo vs. in Taurus this whole groups of skeptical
questions just vanishes.
: > I am too lazy now to *calculate* the probabilities - in
: > my experience statistics has always been something very
: > difficult to get right by logical thinking - thus it is
: > maybe related to Virgo?
:
: My mom has Mercury in Pisces and apparently did well in her statistics
: classes in college, and if I'm not mistaken for a while she was in a
: field which involved lots of statistics (epidemiology or something).
: I keep forgetting that she did all that statistics stuff and I could
: probably learn a lot from her.
Interesting. Why not also Gemini/Sagittarius? Statistics
has a lot to do with randomness, which reminds of Mercury
and Jupiter. Churchill who made a relatively famous quote
about statistics had the sun in Sagittarius. But maybe he
was rather at odds (square) with it?
The whole thing with proving astrology remains certainly
very elusive. Astrology works very well if applied by people
who have some experience with it, but formalizing it and
squeezing it into provable boxes has so far not worked.
I mentioned it before: Instead of collecting, with lots of
effort, a handful of data from real births, I would rather
tap into the internet (first post under a screen name =
birth in cyberspace, posts under that screen name = events
in that virtual life, look at transits or whatever). That
provides immediately a lot more data and would maybe also
allow to get large enough numbers for combinations like,
sun conjunct Mercury in Virgo, conjunct Jupiter of another
poster? But even then failure will maybe just move to the
next level. Optimal would be a very simple model that
makes a zillion concrete predictions. Something like that
is easiest to prove. Just my opinion. :)
: > Quick symbolic comments:
: > - Grand trine in earth signs, so not astonishing that
: > something about Virgo and Taurus comes up.
:
: Yes, this seems to be the most active thread on the newsgroup lately,
: even though there are two other threads with similar graphs:
:
: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/7a0053568d81cc3b
: "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
:
: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/ea11da253b77fb99
: "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
:
: > - North lunar node conjunct Neptune,
in Aquarius...
: Close to exact now, too.
:
: > take technological
: > and scientific progress with a grain of salt.
:
: Thanks for the reminder... :-)
Who *needs* an iPhone? It is fun and nice, but is it
really necessary? A few years ago in the Swiss Military
I was with two guys in the evening in a city we did not
know too well. One of the two guys said with fascination
how great it would be if there were portable devices
that could tell you where the next Italian restaurant is
(we wanted to eat Pizza). Almost before he had completed
the sentence, he walked into the next store, and a few
seconds later came out knowing where the next Italian
restaurant was. What is better: Looking something up
anonymously or talking briefly to locals? Depends, but
at least it is not so clear which one is progress.
By the way, does anybody have the birth date of Apple Inc.?
I mean for the *name change* from Apple Computer Inc. to
the new, more general name. The new company has in my view
some quite dark undertones (gray/black user interface themes
unseen before) and, for my taste, the iPhone design is a bit
too fanatically reduced to rectangles with rounded corners,
a favorite of Steve "Reality Distortion Field" Jobs:
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Round_Rects_Are_Everywhere.txt
: > )o+
: >
: > --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
: > Something different...
:
: I hope all is well with you.
Finally spring has arrived in Switzerland, a couple
of days ago. Has been a very long winter (or rather
autumn, almost no snow) here. :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Apollia wrote:
: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/7a0053568d81cc3b
: "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
:
: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/ea11da253b77fb99
: "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
Same thing :)
Statistically indistinguishable from random noise.
(Less data than for the basketballers, so larger
relative fluctuations are more likely to occur).
For the record: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
If you look at these graphs as oracles, like drawing cards
in Tarot or tossing yarrow sticks in the I Ching, then yes,
there are things that can be seen in these graphs. If you
look at them from a scientific perspective, there is not any
kind of structure in the data that would indicate that it
is anything else than essentially random (white) noise. All
data shown is perfectly consistent with that hypothesis.
)o+
PS: No matter what future replies by others might superficially
suggest - unless I would afterwards explicitly state so - I do
not agree with Ray Murphy. Sorry, but I feel I need to defend
a bit from Neptune's illusionary veils here ;)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Apollia wrote:
: >By the way, does anybody have the birth date of Apple Inc.?
: >
: >I mean for the *name change* from Apple Computer Inc. to
: >the new, more general name.
:
: I found a link in Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer
: ) to a PDF file ( http://ccbn.10kwizard.com/xml/download.php?format=PDF&ipage=4589126
: ) which says:
:
: 'On January 9, 2007, Apple Computer, Inc. (the "Company") amended
: Article I of its Restated Articles of Incorporation solely to change
: the corporate name from "Apple Computer, Inc." to "Apple Inc."'
:
: No time data provided. Guess I'll just user Cupertino, CA for the
: location (since that's mentioned in that PDF).
:
: -qa Jan 9 2007 12:00 PST 122:01W 37:19N
:
:
: Also, here's some other data related to Apple provided in the software
: Kepler:
:
: -qa Jan 3 1977 9:30:00 EST 122:01W 37:19N
: Location: Cupertino, California
:
: Time accuracy: XX. No source notes provided.
:
: Wikipedia provides a link to http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=107357&p=irol-faq#corpinfo1
: which says "Apple was incorporated in the state of California on
: January 3, 1977."
:
:
: Apple Computer, Inc AAPL
:
: -qa Dec 12 1980 9:30:00 EST 74:00W 40:42N
: Location: New York, NY
:
: Source notes: "Nasdaq stock issue date
: Source: Imported directly from Excel spreadsheet from Nasdaq
: Data collector: David Cochrane"
:
: Time accuracy: A (News report)
Thanks for the data. :)
When Apple *really* started:
http://www.stariq.com/main/articles/p0000927.htm
(note the author ;)
I'm out...
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
In article
<7c338bfe-fbd8-450d-9aa3-37bd7b42e12e@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> On Apr 27, 5:55 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > Apollia wrote:
> >
> > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> > : "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
> > :
> > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> > : "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
> >
> > Same thing :)
> >
> > Statistically indistinguishable from random noise.
> > (Less data than for the basketballers, so larger
> > relative fluctuations are more likely to occur).
> >
> > For the record: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
>
> OK, for the record, I hope nothing I said implies that you do. :-)
> And, nothing I said was meant to imply anything like that.
>
> As for what I agree with - well, I don't know, I don't understand this
> stuff well enough yet to make up my mind, so, I'm going to keep trying
> to remain basically agnostic and neutral... :-)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample/sample.html
A Java Applet that randomly picks one of 12 numbers
2911 times and plots the count for two arbitrary
numbers in function of added count for both numbers
together, i.e. same type of graph as Ray presented,
but with random data instead of collected birth data.
Click the graph to generate a new sample. Should not
take long until you see graphs that resemble the ones
presented by Ray very much.
Also contains a link to the Java source code.
This is not at all a border case where one suspects
that maybe the presented data might be significant.
This is a clear case of noise, not of any provable
structure. Trust me, I have a Ph.D. in physics. :)
Would be nice if it was different, but is not so.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
)o+
> > If you look at these graphs as oracles, like drawing cards
> > in Tarot or tossing yarrow sticks in the I Ching, then yes,
> > there are things that can be seen in these graphs. If you
> > look at them from a scientific perspective, there is not any
> > kind of structure in the data that would indicate that it
> > is anything else than essentially random (white) noise. All
> > data shown is perfectly consistent with that hypothesis.
> >
> > )o+
> >
> > PS: No matter what future replies by others might superficially
> > suggest - unless I would afterwards explicitly state so - I do
> > not agree with Ray Murphy. Sorry, but I feel I need to defend
> > a bit from Neptune's illusionary veils here ;)
>
> Can't hurt... :-)
>
> > --
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> > Something different...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> ----
>
> Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Apollia wrote:
> On Apr 28, 5:47 pm, Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 28, 1:33 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Apollia wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Thanks for the data. :)
> >
> > > When Apple *really* started:http://www.stariq.com/main/articles/p0000927.htm
> > > (note the author ;)
> >
> > > I'm out...
> >
> > > )o+
> >
> > > --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> > > Something different...
> >
> > You're welcome! Thanks for dropping by. I knew you probably wouldn't
> > stay long, but, as always, thanks for your fascinating contributions.
>
> Oops, I spoke too soon. Didn't see your most recent post (Google
> Groups isn't always up to date).
>
>
> On Apr 28, 5:36 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <7c338bfe-fbd8-450d-9aa3-37bd7b42e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 27, 5:55 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > > > Apollia wrote:
> >
> > > > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> > > > : "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
> > > > :
> > > > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> > > > : "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
> >
> > > > Same thing :)
> >
> > > > Statistically indistinguishable from random noise.
> > > > (Less data than for the basketballers, so larger
> > > > relative fluctuations are more likely to occur).
> >
> > > > For the record: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
> >
> > > OK, for the record, I hope nothing I said implies that you do. :-)
> > > And, nothing I said was meant to imply anything like that.
> >
> > > As for what I agree with - well, I don't know, I don't understand this
> > > stuff well enough yet to make up my mind, so, I'm going to keep trying
> > > to remain basically agnostic and neutral... :-)
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample/sample.html
> >
> > A Java Applet that randomly picks one of 12 numbers
> > 2911 times and plots the count for two arbitrary
> > numbers in function of added count for both numbers
> > together, i.e. same type of graph as Ray presented,
> > but with random data instead of collected birth data.
> >
> > Click the graph to generate a new sample. Should not
> > take long until you see graphs that resemble the ones
> > presented by Ray very much.
> >
> > Also contains a link to the Java source code.
>
> Thank you! That's a really neat program. Makes me want to learn
> Java...
>
> > This is not at all a border case where one suspects
> > that maybe the presented data might be significant.
> > This is a clear case of noise, not of any provable
> > structure. Trust me, I have a Ph.D. in physics. :)
> >
> > Would be nice if it was different, but is not so.
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> > Something different...
> >
> > )o+
>
> I definitely do trust you, but, I don't really want to accept anything
> just on blind faith in someone's authority/credentials (otherwise I'd
> have to dismiss astrology on the basis of zillions of other scientists
> saying it's nonsense). :-)
>
> I have to reach the point of being able to understand this stuff
> myself - then, I'll be able to make up my mind.
>
> That said, I highly esteem your opinion, I hope someday I'll be able
> to understand this stuff as well as you... :-)
But it is so obvious! :)
Don't the graphs look very similar?
Don't they occur at every so-and-so click?
Isn't the source code very brief and simple?
Recently I started to read the Bertold Brecht's play
"Leben des Galileo" ("Life of Galileo") where he
simply tries to get people to take a look through his
telescope to see the moons of Jupiter that rotate
around it and thus are something that does not move
around the Earth, a direct proof that the strict
geocentric world view cannot be true, that it is not
possible that all the planets move on actual crystal
spheres around Earth... The people at that time
simply chose not to look through the telescope and
instead to present all kinds of arguments why it was
not necessary to look through it, i.e. they placed
the element Air before Earth.
What was the quote by Douglas Adams again? ;)
: "See first, think later, then test. But always see first. Otherwise
: you will only see what you were expecting. Most scientists forget
: that."
:
: --Douglas Adams. Collected 21:47 2/14/2008.
Sure in the Age of Pisces physical reality (Earth)
was less important than inner convictions or truths,
but science is more the other axis, Virgo, earthier,
more practical. Brecht had the sun in Aquarius.
Actually I had intended to write an article related
to that quote and the one the described science as
"a medival superstition", where I wanted to look at
science and at astrology from both sides and place
them in the times they came up (foremost in terms
of astrological ages). Maybe another time...
)o+
In article <48166054$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:hermes-E53BEB.23360028042008@news.bluewin.ch...
> > In article
> > <7c338bfe-fbd8-450d-9aa3-37bd7b42e12e@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> > Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Apr 27, 5:55 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >> > Apollia wrote:
> >> >
> >> > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> >> > : "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
> >> > :
> >> > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> >> > : "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
> >> >
> >> > Same thing :)
> >> >
> >> > Statistically indistinguishable from random noise.
> >> > (Less data than for the basketballers, so larger
> >> > relative fluctuations are more likely to occur).
> >> >
> >> > For the record: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
> >>
> >> OK, for the record, I hope nothing I said implies that you do. :-)
> >> And, nothing I said was meant to imply anything like that.
> >>
> >> As for what I agree with - well, I don't know, I don't understand
> >> this
> >> stuff well enough yet to make up my mind, so, I'm going to keep
> >> trying
> >> to remain basically agnostic and neutral... :-)
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample/sample.html
> >
> > A Java Applet that randomly picks one of 12 numbers
> > 2911 times and plots the count for two arbitrary
> > numbers in function of added count for both numbers
> > together, i.e. same type of graph as Ray presented,
> > but with random data instead of collected birth data.
> >
> > Click the graph to generate a new sample. Should not
> > take long until you see graphs that resemble the ones
> > presented by Ray very much.
> >
> > Also contains a link to the Java source code.
> >
> > This is not at all a border case where one suspects
> > that maybe the presented data might be significant.
> > This is a clear case of noise, not of any provable
> > structure. Trust me, I have a Ph.D. in physics. :)
> >
> > Would be nice if it was different, but is not so.
>
> RM: What a fascinating little program!
> Is there any chance of getting it to put the Chi square value in?
> I ask this because it looks like very few of the "good" graphs are
> producing scores that are statistically significant, and it's always
> easy to produce random results that are not.
Don't agree with statements, but here is a modified
version with Chi2 and p-values, see source code for
details:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample2/sample.html
)o+
In article <4816fc35@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:hermes-365CAE.09033129042008@news.bluewin.ch...
> > In article <48166054$1@news.comindico.com.au>,
> > "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> >
> >> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> >> news:hermes-E53BEB.23360028042008@news.bluewin.ch...
> >> > In article
> >> > <7c338bfe-fbd8-450d-9aa3-37bd7b42e12e@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> > Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Apr 27, 5:55 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >> >> > Apollia wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> >> >> > : "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
> >> >> > :
> >> >> > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> >> >> > : "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Same thing :)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Statistically indistinguishable from random noise.
> >> >> > (Less data than for the basketballers, so larger
> >> >> > relative fluctuations are more likely to occur).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > For the record: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
> >> >>
> >> >> OK, for the record, I hope nothing I said implies that you do.
> >> >> :-)
> >> >> And, nothing I said was meant to imply anything like that.
> >> >>
> >> >> As for what I agree with - well, I don't know, I don't
> >> >> understand
> >> >> this
> >> >> stuff well enough yet to make up my mind, so, I'm going to keep
> >> >> trying
> >> >> to remain basically agnostic and neutral... :-)
> >> >
> >> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample/sample.html
> >> >
> >> > A Java Applet that randomly picks one of 12 numbers
> >> > 2911 times and plots the count for two arbitrary
> >> > numbers in function of added count for both numbers
> >> > together, i.e. same type of graph as Ray presented,
> >> > but with random data instead of collected birth data.
> >> >
> >> > Click the graph to generate a new sample. Should not
> >> > take long until you see graphs that resemble the ones
> >> > presented by Ray very much.
> >> >
> >> > Also contains a link to the Java source code.
> >> >
> >> > This is not at all a border case where one suspects
> >> > that maybe the presented data might be significant.
> >> > This is a clear case of noise, not of any provable
> >> > structure. Trust me, I have a Ph.D. in physics. :)
> >> >
> >> > Would be nice if it was different, but is not so.
> >>
> >> RM: What a fascinating little program!
> >> Is there any chance of getting it to put the Chi square value in?
> >> I ask this because it looks like very few of the "good" graphs are
> >> producing scores that are statistically significant, and it's
> >> always
> >> easy to produce random results that are not.
> >
> > Don't agree with statements, but here is a modified
> > version with Chi2 and p-values, see source code for
> > details:
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample2/sample.html
> >
> > )o+
>
> RM: On my PC I can see the coloured images in the graph and the
> additional text for Chi^2 and p, but no actual scores for them. Did
> you use an invisible ink font or something?
>
> It may be a problem with my PC because some of the the background
> colours of Astrodatbank are always missing on my fast PC but they're
> ok
> on the slow one. (I use the same monotor for both PC's by hitting the
> "scroll lock" button twice to switch between them).
Found a bug, did that too quickly this morning. :(
New version:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample3/sample.html
Changes compared to original (/sample/sample.html):
- The two black lines shown are now the ones with the
biggest difference of the twelve (no longer randomly
picked as in original)
- Blue graph is Chi2 (vertical scale is 0..30, as
indicated in blue on the right)
- Red/green graph is p-value, green when < 0.05, which
many online tutorials on the Chi2 Test describe as
"significant" (vertical scale is 0..0.30, as
indicated in green, red and black on the right)
- Below the rectangle are Chi2 and p-value for full
data (corresponding to the respective values at
the right end of the curves)
As it can be seen, it is not too uncommon to see the
p-value for quite some time in the green range, i.e.
"significant" (remember, this is just random noise!).
Post sent with moon conjunct Neptune/n.node...
)o+
07032329042008@news.bluewin.ch> <24321a55-e209-42c0-bfcd-45fb81ac1a01@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
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In article
<24321a55-e209-42c0-bfcd-45fb81ac1a01@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> On Apr 29, 1:03 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > Apollia wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > On Apr 28, 5:36 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <7c338bfe-fbd8-450d-9aa3-37bd7b42e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Apr 27, 5:55 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > > > > > Apollia wrote:
> >
> > > > > > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> > > > > > : "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
> > > > > > :
> > > > > > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> > > > > > : "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
> >
> > > > > > Same thing :)
> >
> > > > > > Statistically indistinguishable from random noise.
> > > > > > (Less data than for the basketballers, so larger
> > > > > > relative fluctuations are more likely to occur).
> >
> > > > > > For the record: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
> >
> > > > > OK, for the record, I hope nothing I said implies that you do. :-)
> > > > > And, nothing I said was meant to imply anything like that.
> >
> > > > > As for what I agree with - well, I don't know, I don't understand this
> > > > > stuff well enough yet to make up my mind, so, I'm going to keep trying
> > > > > to remain basically agnostic and neutral... :-)
> >
> > > >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample/sample.html
> >
> > > > A Java Applet that randomly picks one of 12 numbers
> > > > 2911 times and plots the count for two arbitrary
> > > > numbers in function of added count for both numbers
> > > > together, i.e. same type of graph as Ray presented,
> > > > but with random data instead of collected birth data.
> >
> > > > Click the graph to generate a new sample. Should not
> > > > take long until you see graphs that resemble the ones
> > > > presented by Ray very much.
> >
> > > > Also contains a link to the Java source code.
> >
> > > Thank you! That's a really neat program. Makes me want to learn
> > > Java...
> >
> > > > This is not at all a border case where one suspects
> > > > that maybe the presented data might be significant.
> > > > This is a clear case of noise, not of any provable
> > > > structure. Trust me, I have a Ph.D. in physics. :)
> >
> > > > Would be nice if it was different, but is not so.
> >
> > > >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> > > > Something different...
> >
> > > > )o+
> >
> > > I definitely do trust you, but, I don't really want to accept anything
> > > just on blind faith in someone's authority/credentials (otherwise I'd
> > > have to dismiss astrology on the basis of zillions of other scientists
> > > saying it's nonsense). :-)
> >
> > > I have to reach the point of being able to understand this stuff
> > > myself - then, I'll be able to make up my mind.
> >
> > > That said, I highly esteem your opinion, I hope someday I'll be able
> > > to understand this stuff as well as you... :-)
> >
> > But it is so obvious! :)
> > Don't the graphs look very similar?
> > Don't they occur at every so-and-so click?
>
> :-) Well, yes, I can see that they look similar and they occur rather
> often, but I have such a poor overall understanding of this stuff I
> just think it's best for me to refrain from jumping to any
> conclusions.
>
> > Isn't the source code very brief and simple?
>
> Astonishingly so... :-)
>
> > Recently I started to read the Bertold Brecht's play
> > "Leben des Galileo" ("Life of Galileo") where he
> > simply tries to get people to take a look through his
> > telescope to see the moons of Jupiter that rotate
> > around it and thus are something that does not move
> > around the Earth, a direct proof that the strict
> > geocentric world view cannot be true, that it is not
> > possible that all the planets move on actual crystal
> > spheres around Earth... The people at that time
> > simply chose not to look through the telescope and
> > instead to present all kinds of arguments why it was
> > not necessary to look through it, i.e. they placed
> > the element Air before Earth.
>
> Well, maybe the most Earthy solution in this situation would be to
> just gather more basketball player data and see if the most are Virgos
> and the least are Tauruses again.
I have one more sample:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample4/sample.html
In this case, the distribution is not random, not
every sign gets 1/12, instead 11 signs get 1/13,
while one sign gets 2/13, i.e. one sign is twice
as likely (e.g. "Virgos twice as likely to become
basketball players than anybody else").
A whole different ball game!
The p-value almost immediately shrinks to something
very close to zero, for all graphs. The "p" in p-value
stands for "probability". A p-value of 0.05 or 1/20
just means that the chance for a "false positive" is
1/20, i.e. if you do the same experiment 20 times and
what is expected is actually true, you would still expect
on average that one time in 20 you would get a p-value
of 0.05 or lower, suggesting a "significant" deviation
from the expected result.
In the case of what Ray apparently has done, if you
take 100 attributes of people ("astrologer", "basket-
ball player", etc.), you would expect in 20 of these
cases to see a low p-value. If you only look at two
signs for calculating the p-value, you get so little
data that almost anything can happen anyway. And if
you look at "11000" graphs, then even more so.
I would not trust any p-value larger than 1/100000 or
so, and even then ask back if there was a selection
process hidden and unmentioned behind it...
Symbolically, in my feeling, I would probably file
statistics under Pisces, requires to not be fooled
by appearances (last sign of zodiac, seen it all),
and in my model Pisces is made mainly of Air, logic
is a given (last stage of it seen just before with
Aquarius), no longer in the focus.
In that sense, I would file my posts here as well as
many of my posts in the past essentially with Pisces
(my Saturn and Cheiron and Lilith).
Once more: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
What is maybe worth mentioning is that the samples
with random results (1-3) look more beautiful than
the ones with a significant deviation. So maybe also
Venus? Taurus? Eris? (Wasn't maybe Venus conjunct Eris
during quite a few of these posts?) Would actually be
nice one day to have some significant experimental
answers to such questions, maybe even to quickly
place such romantic situations like sun/Mercury Virgo
guy practicing basketball while someone with a crush
on him and Jupiter in Virgo is observing. How does
oneself calculate a feeling, is that local math or is
it (more likely, if you ask me) a more collective
effect, collective feedback?
)o+
> > What was the quote by Douglas Adams again? ;)
> >
> > : "See first, think later, then test. But always see first. Otherwise
> > : you will only see what you were expecting. Most scientists forget
> > : that."
> > :
> > : --Douglas Adams. Collected 21:47 2/14/2008.
> >
> > Sure in the Age of Pisces physical reality (Earth)
> > was less important than inner convictions or truths,
> > but science is more the other axis, Virgo, earthier,
> > more practical. Brecht had the sun in Aquarius.
> > Actually I had intended to write an article related
> > to that quote and the one the described science as
> > "a medival superstition", where I wanted to look at
> > science and at astrology from both sides and place
> > them in the times they came up (foremost in terms
> > of astrological ages). Maybe another time...
> >
> > )o+
>
> I look forward to reading it if you write it... :-)
>
> ----
>
> Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
.500084C9@news.bluewin.ch>
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I wrote:
: Symbolically, in my feeling, I would probably file
: statistics under Pisces, requires to not be fooled
: by appearances (last sign of zodiac, seen it all),
: and in my model Pisces is made mainly of Air, logic
: is a given (last stage of it seen just before with
: Aquarius), no longer in the focus.
Originally I also mentioned "chess" in the above
paragraph, but then did not want to get lost in
explaining how that relates. But I just saw that
(at least on the newsserver that I am using) that
post had just been post number 64 in the thread.
64 = 8 x 8 is the number of squares on a chess
board. Also the constellation of Pisces consists
of two fish that are perpendicular to each other,
one is vertical, one is perpendicular. If you
draw a fish like children do, it looks very much
like a lying number 8 (the symbol of infinity).
And so on, see some of my past posts...
: In that sense, I would file my posts here as well as
: many of my posts in the past essentially with Pisces
: (my Saturn and Cheiron and Lilith).
My first query to the I Ching (a random oracle),
yielded 64 wei-chi ("But if the little fox...").
The last symbol of the I Ching, correlated with
end of winter and fitting with my Saturn (and
also but less so Cheiron) at the very end of Pisces.
So, I guess, yes, statistics and Pisces.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
In article <48181434@news.comindico.com.au>,
"Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> "Hermes" <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote in message
> news:20080430043452.500084C9@news.bluewin.ch...
> > 07032329042008@news.bluewin.ch>
> > <24321a55-e209-42c0-bfcd-45fb81ac1a01@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
> > User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.5.2 (PPC Mac OS X)
> > X-No_Archive: yes
> > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:34:49 +0200
> > Message-ID: <hermes-71C7AE.06344930042008@news.bluewin.ch>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 83.78.50.63
> > X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 83.78.50.63
> > X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1209530092 83.78.50.63 (30 Apr 2008
> > 06:34:52 +0200)
> > Lines: 205
> > Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch
> > X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
> >
> > In article
> > <24321a55-e209-42c0-bfcd-45fb81ac1a01@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Apr 29, 1:03 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >> > Apollia wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> > > On Apr 28, 5:36 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >> > > > In article
> >> > > > <7c338bfe-fbd8-450d-9aa3-37bd7b42e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >
> >> > > > Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > On Apr 27, 5:55 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > Apollia wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > > > > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> >> > > > > > : "ADB Politicians with Mars in Leo or Aries"
> >> > > > > > :
> >> > > > > > :http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
> >> > > > > > : "More Aquarians in astrology than Taureans"
> >> >
> >> > > > > > Same thing :)
> >> >
> >> > > > > > Statistically indistinguishable from random noise.
> >> > > > > > (Less data than for the basketballers, so larger
> >> > > > > > relative fluctuations are more likely to occur).
> >> >
> >> > > > > > For the record: I do not agree with Ray Murphy. :)
> >> >
> >> > > > > OK, for the record, I hope nothing I said implies that you
> >> > > > > do. :-)
> >> > > > > And, nothing I said was meant to imply anything like that.
> >> >
> >> > > > > As for what I agree with - well, I don't know, I don't
> >> > > > > understand this
> >> > > > > stuff well enough yet to make up my mind, so, I'm going to
> >> > > > > keep trying
> >> > > > > to remain basically agnostic and neutral... :-)
> >> >
> >> > > >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample/sample.html
> >> >
> >> > > > A Java Applet that randomly picks one of 12 numbers
> >> > > > 2911 times and plots the count for two arbitrary
> >> > > > numbers in function of added count for both numbers
> >> > > > together, i.e. same type of graph as Ray presented,
> >> > > > but with random data instead of collected birth data.
> >> >
> >> > > > Click the graph to generate a new sample. Should not
> >> > > > take long until you see graphs that resemble the ones
> >> > > > presented by Ray very much.
> >> >
> >> > > > Also contains a link to the Java source code.
> >> >
> >> > > Thank you! That's a really neat program. Makes me want to
> >> > > learn
> >> > > Java...
> >> >
> >> > > > This is not at all a border case where one suspects
> >> > > > that maybe the presented data might be significant.
> >> > > > This is a clear case of noise, not of any provable
> >> > > > structure. Trust me, I have a Ph.D. in physics. :)
> >> >
> >> > > > Would be nice if it was different, but is not so.
> >> >
> >> > > >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> >> > > > Something different...
> >> >
> >> > > > )o+
> >> >
> >> > > I definitely do trust you, but, I don't really want to accept
> >> > > anything
> >> > > just on blind faith in someone's authority/credentials
> >> > > (otherwise I'd
> >> > > have to dismiss astrology on the basis of zillions of other
> >> > > scientists
> >> > > saying it's nonsense). :-)
> >> >
> >> > > I have to reach the point of being able to understand this
> >> > > stuff
> >> > > myself - then, I'll be able to make up my mind.
> >> >
> >> > > That said, I highly esteem your opinion, I hope someday I'll be
> >> > > able
> >> > > to understand this stuff as well as you... :-)
> >> >
> >> > But it is so obvious! :)
> >> > Don't the graphs look very similar?
> >> > Don't they occur at every so-and-so click?
> >>
> >> :-) Well, yes, I can see that they look similar and they occur
> >> rather
> >> often, but I have such a poor overall understanding of this stuff I
> >> just think it's best for me to refrain from jumping to any
> >> conclusions.
> >>
> >> > Isn't the source code very brief and simple?
> >>
> >> Astonishingly so... :-)
> >>
> >> > Recently I started to read the Bertold Brecht's play
> >> > "Leben des Galileo" ("Life of Galileo") where he
> >> > simply tries to get people to take a look through his
> >> > telescope to see the moons of Jupiter that rotate
> >> > around it and thus are something that does not move
> >> > around the Earth, a direct proof that the strict
> >> > geocentric world view cannot be true, that it is not
> >> > possible that all the planets move on actual crystal
> >> > spheres around Earth... The people at that time
> >> > simply chose not to look through the telescope and
> >> > instead to present all kinds of arguments why it was
> >> > not necessary to look through it, i.e. they placed
> >> > the element Air before Earth.
> >>
> >> Well, maybe the most Earthy solution in this situation would be to
> >> just gather more basketball player data and see if the most are
> >> Virgos
> >> and the least are Tauruses again.
> >
> > I have one more sample:
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample4/sample.html
>
> RM: This 4th graph generator doesn't work at all on my PC.
>
> > In this case, the distribution is not random, not
> > every sign gets 1/12, instead 11 signs get 1/13,
> > while one sign gets 2/13, i.e. one sign is twice
> > as likely (e.g. "Virgos twice as likely to become
> > basketball players than anybody else").
> >
> > A whole different ball game!
>
> RM: It sound quite weird to be using an irrelevant number like 13.
You mean like the king in the fairy tale who thought to
himself: I got only 12 dishes with a golden border, let's
just not invite the 13th Fairy?
Putting the solar months (12) above the lunar ones (13
in the fairy tale, something around 12.5 in reality)
did not work out fully in the end.
Is also very similar to the Eris myth where also someone
was not invited to a party... (chaos magic, Random in the
HHGTTG, and so much more... Turanga Leela)
> > The p-value almost immediately shrinks to something
> > very close to zero, for all graphs.
>
> RM: That means you made an error.
Actually I found something really interesting by checking
my code again: in the call that calculates Chi2 and pvalue
using the Apache Commons Math library, I use actual numbers
of observed counts, but had expected frequencies normalized
to a sum of 1. Turned out that the Apache methods adjust
that automatically, once more a strong indication that
statistics is linked to Pisces, getting the overall picture
right despite here and there neglecting a detail.
Come to think of it, reminds me also a lot of physics. :)
Trust me Ray, from a scientific point of view, you are
investigating noise, not provable structures. But noise
is much more fun, of course...
> > The "p" in p-value
> > stands for "probability". A p-value of 0.05 or 1/20
> > just means that the chance for a "false positive" is
> > 1/20, i.e. if you do the same experiment 20 times and
> > what is expected is actually true, you would still expect
> > on average that one time in 20 you would get a p-value
> > of 0.05 or lower, suggesting a "significant" deviation
> > from the expected result.
>
> RM: Yes, and that's why .05 is of no use most of the time.
> It's really only good for telling us when we *might* be starting
> to get 'warm'.
>
> > In the case of what Ray apparently has done, if you
> > take 100 attributes of people ("astrologer", "basket-
> > ball player", etc.), you would expect in 20 of these
> > cases to see a low p-value.
>
> RM: In theory perhaps, but it doesn't happen in reality.
> For us to get the very weakest p-value of 0.05 in that way,
> we would need a Chi square score of 19.6 in the table of
> results, and I don't recall seeing ONE yet in any of the scores
> of searches that I've done recently.
>
> > If you only look at two
> > signs for calculating the p-value, you get so little
> > data that almost anything can happen anyway. And if
> > you look at "11000" graphs, then even more so.
>
> RM: That's akin to saying that if we are compare Canadians
> and Australians ability in tennis, we are leaving out 193 other
> countries. Totally irrelevant.
>
> > I would not trust any p-value larger than 1/100000 or
> > so, and even then ask back if there was a selection
> > process hidden and unmentioned behind it...
>
> RM: That's where the real action is in science. It's not until we see
> numbers like that, that we start saying thigs are proved - such as the
> effect of aspirin on blood.
>
> This argument about the selection process makes me wonder
> about what sort of arguments were put up when Edison discovered
> the ideal metal for his electric light filaments. I suppose there
> would be someone with text book in hand saying "Ah, but Mr Edison
> looked at 1,000 other possible matreials, so therefore the stats for
> his
> supposed "discovery" look very rubbery indeed".
> >
> > )o+
>
> Ray
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
07032329042008@news.bluewin.ch> <24321a55-e209-42c0-bfcd-45fb81ac1a01@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <4818299b@news.comindico.com.au> <d5c27da3-2b2b-496a-83be-29caa11cb928@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
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In article
<d5c27da3-2b2b-496a-83be-29caa11cb928@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Apollia <xerxes112@aol.com> wrote:
> [... Ray/Hermes replies ...]
>
> Thank you both! I look forward to the day when I can come back to
> this thread and easily be able to understand this stuff. Time for me
> to get a copy of "Statistics for Dummies".
>
> ----
>
> Apollia My website: http://www.astroblahhh.com/
>
> Birth data: -qa July 3 1981 12:50 EDT 79:59W 40:26N (Pittsburgh, PA)
Thanks too, until next time ... :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Ray Murphy wrote:
: On May 1, 9:08 am, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
: > Astrology Statistics for dummies:
: > [Finding Chi squared with only 2 bars in a graph]
: >
: > (abbreviations commonly used are X^2 -- or -- Chi2)
: >
: > Example below is from the Basketballers thread:
: >
: > Virgo score . = 285
: > Taurus score = 217
: > ----------------------
: > SUM .......... = 502
: > ----------------------
: > Expected score for Virgo = 251
: > Expected score for Taurus = 251
: >
: > Formula:
: > X^2 = (Obs score - Exp score) squared, divided by Expected score
: >
: > X^2 = (285 - 251) = 34 squared = 1156 divided by 251 = 4.6056
: >
: > To find the p-score (probability of this occurring by chance) go to
: > this online calculator and enter the Chi squared value of 4.6056 with
: > ONE degree of freedom. Answer is p = 0.0319http://www.anu.edu.au/nceph/surfstat/surfstat-home/tables/chi.php
Wrong number of degrees of freedom. The sum of Virgos
and Taureans is not bound to be 502, they have thus
more freedom to deviate from the expected value, hence
the probability of this occurring is higher that what
you get below. A quick simulation also confirms this.
Your formula would apply, to illustrate things, to a
coin with Virgo on one side and with Taurus on the
other that you toss exactly 502 times.
The experimental situation for star signs is actually
more like tossing a dodecahedron dice with one of the
signs on each of the 12 surfaces 2911 times.
At birth you have a choice of 12 signs not just 2.
A choice of two is gender. :)
: > To convert the p-score into intelligible probability numbers for
: > astrologers we divide it into 1.
: > 1 divided by 0.0319 = 33.3480
: >
: > This means that if we repeat the test with 33 more sets of 502
: > VIR + TAU basketballers we might get the same good p-score
: > again just by chance.
: >
: [Correction to last paragraph]
: This means that if we repeat the test with 33 more sets of
: random data *representing* the 502 VIR + TAU basketballers
: we might get the same good p-score again just by chance.
Actually even if the probability was 1 in 33 and not 1 in 10
or so, since you apparently selected the presented graphs from
100 different factors and found several that looked/calculated
to something with a probability of a few percent, this is just
what would be expected if it was all just random noise.
So once more: Results scientifically indistinguishable from
random noise, in terms of divination very interesting.
Try a more Gemini approach, simulate what happens using a
random number generator. Try with a generator that creates
all signs with equal probabilities and with one that is just
a bit skew, like in my example giving one sign 2/13 and all
the others 1/13. Makes a world on difference on finding a
low p-value, even an astronomical one. That gives you a taste
of what really significant results look like.
It is a very interesting meta-result that astrology is so
smart not to reveal itself in such simple statistical tests,
with the exception of the mentioned same sign marriages.
Just out of curiosity: Martin Lewicky is a scientist, as far
as I know. He is Australian, too, and I think you are or were
in contact sometimes. What does he say to your data and to
your math ? Would you trust him if he told you that you got
somewhat lost here, as I feel and think you are ?
Statistics are difficult even for such simple setups. Still
feels to be a Pisces thing to me, lots of experience helps,
with an opportunity (sextile) to Taurus and Capricorn, like
the experimental simulations (Earth/reality, "just try it
and see what you get") that I made.
I really don't know what else I could say or do to get you
to actually "look through Galileo's telescope" so to speak,
so I guess I will just hope that time and/or others with be
more convincing, maybe just if there are several people who
disagree that reduces the chance that one is right.
Or maybe not. :)
About 99.999999% of time or something close to that, if you
do research in science, you just learn something new about
nature, you stumble about your own limited perceptions of
how things should be and during that process you gradually
learn more about nature. It is quite frustrating at times,
but all the more fun if/when you find something real. With
years of experience it gets easier to get things right in
simple cases, but even then it does remain something of a
struggle each time.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
I wrote:
: Ray Murphy wrote:
: : On May 1, 9:08 am, "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
: : > Astrology Statistics for dummies:
: : > [Finding Chi squared with only 2 bars in a graph]
: : >
: : > (abbreviations commonly used are X^2 -- or -- Chi2)
: : >
: : > Example below is from the Basketballers thread:
: : >
: : > Virgo score . = 285
: : > Taurus score = 217
: : > ----------------------
: : > SUM .......... = 502
: : > ----------------------
: : > Expected score for Virgo = 251
: : > Expected score for Taurus = 251
: : >
: : > Formula:
: : > X^2 = (Obs score - Exp score) squared, divided by Expected score
: : >
: : > X^2 = (285 - 251) = 34 squared = 1156 divided by 251 = 4.6056
: : >
: : > To find the p-score (probability of this occurring by chance) go to
: : > this online calculator and enter the Chi squared value of 4.6056 with
: : > ONE degree of freedom. Answer is p = 0.0319http://www.anu.edu.au/nceph/surfstat/surfstat-home/tables/chi.php
:
: Wrong number of degrees of freedom. The sum of Virgos
: and Taureans is not bound to be 502, they have thus
: more freedom to deviate from the expected value, hence
: the probability of this occurring is higher that what
: you get below. A quick simulation also confirms this.
:
: Your formula would apply, to illustrate things, to a
: coin with Virgo on one side and with Taurus on the
: other that you toss exactly 502 times.
:
: The experimental situation for star signs is actually
: more like tossing a dodecahedron dice with one of the
: signs on each of the 12 surfaces 2911 times.
:
: At birth you have a choice of 12 signs not just 2.
: A choice of two is gender. :)
I simulated this and actually the probability distributions
are pretty similar for the two things.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/stat/
Actually I plot 4 graphs (also described on my site):
++ A
++ * Toss a coin 500 times, count heads and tails
++ * Repeat this and count how many times the same
++ difference {head count - tail count} occurs
++ * Plot the counts for each difference
++
++ C
++ * Toss a coin 500 times, count heads
++ * Toss a coin 500 times, count tails
++ * Repeat this and count how many times the same
++ difference {head count - tail count} occurs
++ * Plot the counts for each difference
++ * Curve C is thinner than A - I guess by a factor
++ of square root of 2, since in case A the distance
++ between one toss and the expected value is always
++ doubled and in case C it is statistically doubled,
++ i.e. doubled by sqrt(2), which gives an overall
++ ratio of 2/sqrt(2) = sqrt(2)
++
++ B
++ * Toss a dodecahedron ("zodiac") dice 3000 times
++ * Count numbers that occur separately
++ * Pick any two numbers between 1 and 12
++ * Repeat this and count how many times the same
++ difference {count for number 1 - count for
++ number 2} occurs
++ * Plot the counts for each difference
++ * Practically the same width as curve A
++ * I leave it as an excercise to the reader to
++ calculate why (i.e. haven't done it :)
++
++ D
++ * Toss a dodecahedron ("zodiac") dice 3000 times
++ * Count numbers that occur separately
++ * Pick two numbers so that difference is maximal
++ * Repeat this and count how many times the same
++ difference {count for number 1 - count for
++ number 2} occurs
++ * Plot the counts for each difference
++ * Two peaks since obviously zero difference is
++ very improbable due to the selection process
++ * Number at top right is percentage of chance
++ that difference is >68; typically around 9%
Selection processes as in D make a huge difference...
Anyway,
)o+
: : > To convert the p-score into intelligible probability numbers for
: : > astrologers we divide it into 1.
: : > 1 divided by 0.0319 = 33.3480
: : >
: : > This means that if we repeat the test with 33 more sets of 502
: : > VIR + TAU basketballers we might get the same good p-score
: : > again just by chance.
: : >
: : [Correction to last paragraph]
: : This means that if we repeat the test with 33 more sets of
: : random data *representing* the 502 VIR + TAU basketballers
: : we might get the same good p-score again just by chance.
:
: Actually even if the probability was 1 in 33 and not 1 in 10
: or so, since you apparently selected the presented graphs from
: 100 different factors and found several that looked/calculated
: to something with a probability of a few percent, this is just
: what would be expected if it was all just random noise.
:
: So once more: Results scientifically indistinguishable from
: random noise, in terms of divination very interesting.
:
: Try a more Gemini approach, simulate what happens using a
: random number generator. Try with a generator that creates
: all signs with equal probabilities and with one that is just
: a bit skew, like in my example giving one sign 2/13 and all
: the others 1/13. Makes a world on difference on finding a
: low p-value, even an astronomical one. That gives you a taste
: of what really significant results look like.
:
: It is a very interesting meta-result that astrology is so
: smart not to reveal itself in such simple statistical tests,
: with the exception of the mentioned same sign marriages.
:
: Just out of curiosity: Martin Lewicky is a scientist, as far
: as I know. He is Australian, too, and I think you are or were
: in contact sometimes. What does he say to your data and to
: your math ? Would you trust him if he told you that you got
: somewhat lost here, as I feel and think you are ?
:
: Statistics are difficult even for such simple setups. Still
: feels to be a Pisces thing to me, lots of experience helps,
: with an opportunity (sextile) to Taurus and Capricorn, like
: the experimental simulations (Earth/reality, "just try it
: and see what you get") that I made.
:
: I really don't know what else I could say or do to get you
: to actually "look through Galileo's telescope" so to speak,
: so I guess I will just hope that time and/or others with be
: more convincing, maybe just if there are several people who
: disagree that reduces the chance that one is right.
:
: Or maybe not. :)
:
: About 99.999999% of time or something close to that, if you
: do research in science, you just learn something new about
: nature, you stumble about your own limited perceptions of
: how things should be and during that process you gradually
: learn more about nature. It is quite frustrating at times,
: but all the more fun if/when you find something real. With
: years of experience it gets easier to get things right in
: simple cases, but even then it does remain something of a
: struggle each time.
:
: )o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
The following reply can also be found at
http://www.exactphilosphy.net/stat/
along with a somewhat "beefed-up" Java Applet
to illustrate what happens how likely.
Enjoy,
)o+
--
In a post titled "Virgos play basketball more than Taureans",
posted 19 April 2008 to the newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated,
Ray Murphy wrote the following:
: Hi All,
:
: If people who are born under the sign of Taurus and Virgo have equal
: access to the sport of Basketball, then those with Sun in Virgo elect
: to play that sport at a much higher rate than the Sun in Taurus
: people.
:
: See the attached progressive-graph in date order for the 502 people
: listed in Astrodatabank Version 3 who were born in either of those
: signs. There are 285 Virgo and 217 Taurus people born during a 66 year
: period from 1913 to 1979.
:
: The observation is statistically significant at about the 0.03 level
: when a comparison is made between those 2 signs in isolation.
:
: Noon times have been used for all births.
:
: [Graph has been posted in the Files section of the Google Group
: "Tropical astrology Research"]
:
: http://tropical-astrology-research.googlegroups.com/web/Basketballers...
:
: Ray
This is wrap-up of my replies in usenet. In order that Ray does not
take this all too personal, I am replying to a general reader, not
directly to him. Please note that I am a physicist while Ray is an
amateur. We both agree, to my best knowledge, that astrology works.
What I am writing about here is whether the presented data suggests
rather a signal than a random peak in the noise. This is also not to
say that noise is generally inferior in any way to a signal. Oracles
or divination like in the I Ching or Tarot do work in my experience;
they give results that consistently fit the current situation or the
question(s) asked, although in ways that are difficult to quantify
in a formal way.
My conclusion is that the data presented and the way it was obtained
make it just as likely that it is noise as that it is a signal. Thus
the graph does not indicate anything, there is no provable signal in
it. I will expose this in detail now, citing what has been said when
appropriate, while at the same time trying to be as brief as possible.
I will also refer to the graphs on this page, especially the ones
labeled A to D: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/stat/
First let me expose what the graph that was provided shows exactly:
The database with birth dates used has 2911 basketballers in it [1].
Of these, 217 have the sun in Taurus and 285 have the sun in Virgo.
These two are drawn in sequence of their birth dates (horizontal
scale is that count, it is apparently not date/year of birth [2]).
The vertical scale is the count of births up to the respective date.
The "0.03 level" refers to the p-value of a Chi square test that was
conducted under the assumption that this is equivalent to tossing a
coin with Virgo/Taurus faces 502=217+285 times, i.e. expected value
= 502/2 = 251 and one degree of freedom [3].
That assumption is wrong in principle, but in practice it turns out
that the probability distribution of "toss a coin 2N times and count
the numbers each side occurs" and "toss a dodecahedron die 12N times
and count the numbers that Virgo and Taurus occur" is practically
identical. The former distribution is shown in graph A on my site,
the latter in graph B on my site. (Interesting fact from a symbolic
point of view, by the way.)
About the graphs: For simplicity I chose N=3000 (close enough to
2911) and thus the expected value of each sign is 3000/12 = 250
(which is also close enough). The horizontal scale for the solid
black hills is distance at the end of "tossing", i.e. for the data
that was presented in the graph above, it would be 285-217 = 68.
The vertical scale is chosen such that the graphs all have the
same height. The double turquoise lines correspond to the way the
data was presented in the graph on top of this page, i.e. the one
that was linked to in the post quoted above.
As you can see, graphs A and B look very similar. This is also true
for the double turquoise lines.
However, this is not what was done. Instead a choice was made from
all 12 signs and the one with the largest difference was drawn [4].
The probability distribution for that is shown in graph D. There are
two peaks centered around a difference of about 50. The probability
that the difference is 68 or higher is in fact about 10%, not 3%
as the Chi square test calculated for situation A would suggest by
its p-value of 0.03.
As you can see, very often the two turquoise lines in graph D look
very similar to the graph on top for the Virgo/Taurus basketballers.
Moreover, this graph, and a similar one also posted recently, were
apparently chosen from a set of 100 different attributes that people
in the database had [4]. This makes the occurrence of such a graph
perfectly expected, indistinguishable from noise. Unless there are
more such graphs in the data than expected, nothing (nothing at all)
suggests that this is more likely a signal than noise. In particular
many more graphs with less difference showing are almost equally
likely to contain structures than the ones singled out. It would be
misleading to focus on just the ones that have been singled out.
If there was a real bias in any of these graphs of the sort of "twice
as many Virgos play basketball than any other sign", there would have
been a clear result in this case, with a p-value very close to 0
(I am not speaking about 0.01 or 0.0001 - no, *way* smaller...)
Graph C, for completeness, is for tossing two "Virgo/Taurus coins"
independently and counting Virgos for one and Taurus for the other.
The hill is most likely sqrt(2) thinner than the one of A. I may
have been a little bit imprecise at points in the hope to keep this
text somewhat more accessible to the typical astrologer.
In conclusion, the claim made in the original post:
: If people who are born under the sign of Taurus and Virgo have equal
: access to the sport of Basketball, then those with Sun in Virgo elect
: to play that sport at a much higher rate than the Sun in Taurus
: people.
.... is wrong. (It is literally true for the data that was used, but no
general conclusion can be drawn from the data, at least it is wrong to
single out this graph or similar ones relative to most others.)
References:
[1]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/ac191ce91efbebad
: RM: For the same time span (1913 to 1979) there were 2409
: basketballers in the database for the other 10 signs.
: 239 -- ARI
: 217 -- TAU
: 224 - GEM
: 277 - CAN
: 268 - LEO
: 285 - VIR
: 242 - LIB
: 230 - SCO
: 228 - SAG
: 219 - CAP
: 246 - AQU
: 236 - PIS
: ----------------
: 2911 - SUM
: ----------------
[2]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/ac191ce91efbebad
: RM: The horizontal axis represents time in 2 ways simultaneously --
: firstly as the accumulating sum of birth counts [in sequence as they
: occurred] and secondly as time [divided into 2 halves according to the
: scores]. For example in that graph 251 TAU + VIR people had been born
: in the first 33 years up until 1946 and another 251 were born in the
: 33 years from 1946 until 1979. In this case there was 33 years in each
: half but in other graphs for different projects there are more years
: in one half than in the other.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/a3a3e88db16ce887
: [Correction]
: In my reply I said that half of the data was from 1913 to 1946 but it
: was 1951.
[3]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/825c1f7a981ee529
: [...] We're dealing
: with 2 signs of the zodiac in these projects (in total isolation)
: so we need 1 degree of freedom - not 11.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/eaa58b84d68b09f5
: To find the p-score (probability of this occurring by chance) go to
: this online calculator and enter the Chi squared value of 4.6056 with
: ONE degree of freedom. Answer is p = 0.0319
: http://www.anu.edu.au/nceph/surfstat/surfstat-home/tables/chi.php
[4]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/ac191ce91efbebad
: (1) I had a database of 41,249 people in 100 categories.
: (2) Filtered for all Virgo's and found 3347
: (3) Printed out all the scores and %'s and X^2 etc for each category.
: (4) Looked for the highest Chi squared result (Basketballers was
: 10.03)
: (5) Looked at the basketballers' Sun signs in isolation in Jigsaw
: ... to find the lowest scoring Sun sign, which was Taurus.
: (6) Isolated the TAU + VIR basketballers in a new file.
: (7) Sorted them into birth order.
: (8) Made a "progressive graph" which showed the scores for
: ... both TAU + VIR as each person was born. The reason for producing
: ... that style of graph was to ascertain if there was any consistency
: during
: ... the 66 year period or whether it was just a wild fluctuation in
: random data.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/3eb4b61f26eddd8d
: > > Continuing with a series of graphs that show consistent trends:
: > > Astrodatabank's birth data for astrologers shows that Aquarians have
: > > gravitated towards astrology as a career or serious hobby more than
: > > Taureans have, for many years.
: > > [See the progressive graph in the Files section of the Google group
: > > "Tropical Astrology Research"]http://tropical-astrology-research.googlegroups.com/web/Astrologers...
: > I could understand the reason for studying Aquarians for a penchant
: > towards choosing astrology as a career, but why contrast these results
: > with Taureans? Why not the other ten signs? Do they represent two
: > extremes?
: > James
:
: RM: Yes that's all it was - showing the two extremes in the data to
: get the best looking result.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
[Repost with additions at the bottom and updated graphs at
my site - note that the original post was no. 81=9x9 in its
thread (not intentionally), while this one will most likely
be no. 9 in its thread, a clear indication of Neptune, the
9th astrological planet in the solar system, after sun, moon,
Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus, and the one that is
currently conjunct the northern lunar node.]
Link: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/stat/
In a post titled "Virgos play basketball more than Taureans",
posted 19 April 2008 to the newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated,
Ray Murphy wrote the following:
: Hi All,
:
: If people who are born under the sign of Taurus and Virgo have equal
: access to the sport of Basketball, then those with Sun in Virgo elect
: to play that sport at a much higher rate than the Sun in Taurus
: people.
:
: See the attached progressive-graph in date order for the 502 people
: listed in Astrodatabank Version 3 who were born in either of those
: signs. There are 285 Virgo and 217 Taurus people born during a 66 year
: period from 1913 to 1979.
:
: The observation is statistically significant at about the 0.03 level
: when a comparison is made between those 2 signs in isolation.
:
: Noon times have been used for all births.
:
: [Graph has been posted in the Files section of the Google Group
: "Tropical astrology Research"]
:
: http://tropical-astrology-research.googlegroups.com/web/Basketballers...
:
: Ray
This is wrap-up of my replies in usenet. In order that Ray does not
take this all too personal, I am replying to a general reader, not
directly to him. Please note that I am a physicist while Ray is an
amateur. We both agree, to my best knowledge, that astrology works.
What I am writing about here is whether the presented data suggests
rather a signal than a random peak in the noise. This is also not to
say that noise is generally inferior in any way to a signal. Oracles
or divination like in the I Ching or Tarot do work in my experience;
they give results that consistently fit the current situation or the
question(s) asked, although in ways that are difficult to quantify
in a formal way.
My conclusion is that the data presented and the way it was obtained
make it just as likely that it is noise as that it is a signal. Thus
the graph does not indicate anything, there is no provable signal in
it. I will expose this in detail now, citing what has been said when
appropriate, while at the same time trying to be as brief as possible.
I will also refer to the graphs on this page, especially the ones
labeled A to D: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/stat/
First let me expose what the graph that was provided shows exactly:
The database with birth dates used has 2911 basketballers in it [1].
Of these, 217 have the sun in Taurus and 285 have the sun in Virgo.
These two are drawn in sequence of their birth dates (horizontal
scale is that count, it is apparently not date/year of birth [2]).
The vertical scale is the count of births up to the respective date.
The "0.03 level" refers to the p-value of a Chi square test that was
conducted under the assumption that this is equivalent to tossing a
coin with Virgo/Taurus faces 502=217+285 times, i.e. expected value
= 502/2 = 251 and one degree of freedom [3].
That assumption is wrong in principle, but in practice it turns out
that the probability distribution of "toss a coin 2N times and count
the numbers each side occurs" and "toss a dodecahedron die 12N times
and count the numbers that Virgo and Taurus occur" is practically
identical. The former distribution is shown in graph A on my site,
the latter in graph B on my site. (Interesting fact from a symbolic
point of view, by the way.)
About the graphs: For simplicity I chose N=3000 (close enough to
2911) and thus the expected value of each sign is 3000/12 = 250
(which is also close enough). The horizontal scale for the solid
black hills is distance at the end of "tossing", i.e. for the data
that was presented in the graph above, it would be 285-217 = 68.
The vertical scale is chosen such that the graphs all have the
same height. The double turquoise lines correspond to the way the
data was presented in the graph on top of this page, i.e. the one
that was linked to in the post quoted above.
As you can see, graphs A and B look very similar. This is also true
for the double turquoise lines.
However, this is not what was done. Instead a choice was made from
all 12 signs and the one with the largest difference was drawn [4].
The probability distribution for that is shown in graph D. There are
two peaks centered around a difference of about 50. The probability
that the difference is 68 or higher is in fact about 10%, not 3%
as the Chi square test calculated for situation A would suggest by
its p-value of 0.03.
As you can see, very often the two turquoise lines in graph D look
very similar to the graph on top for the Virgo/Taurus basketballers.
Moreover, this graph, and a similar one also posted recently, were
apparently chosen from a set of 100 different attributes that people
in the database had [4]. This makes the occurrence of such a graph
perfectly expected, indistinguishable from noise. Unless there are
more such graphs in the data than expected, nothing (nothing at all)
suggests that this is more likely a signal than noise. In particular
many more graphs with less difference showing are almost equally
likely to contain structures than the ones singled out. It would be
misleading to focus on just the ones that have been singled out.
If there was a real bias in any of these graphs of the sort of "twice
as many Virgos play basketball than any other sign", there would have
been a clear result in this case, with a p-value very close to 0
(I am not speaking about 0.01 or 0.0001 - no, *way* smaller...)
Graph C, for completeness, is for tossing two "Virgo/Taurus coins"
independently and counting Virgos for one and Taurus for the other.
The hill is most likely sqrt(2) thinner than the one of A. I may
have been a little bit imprecise at points in the hope to keep this
text somewhat more accessible to the typical astrologer.
In conclusion, the claim made in the original post:
: If people who are born under the sign of Taurus and Virgo have equal
: access to the sport of Basketball, then those with Sun in Virgo elect
: to play that sport at a much higher rate than the Sun in Taurus
: people.
.... is wrong. (It is literally true for the data that was used, but no
general conclusion can be drawn from the data, at least it is wrong to
single out this graph or similar ones relative to most others.)
References:
[1]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/ac191ce91efbebad
: RM: For the same time span (1913 to 1979) there were 2409
: basketballers in the database for the other 10 signs.
: 239 -- ARI
: 217 -- TAU
: 224 - GEM
: 277 - CAN
: 268 - LEO
: 285 - VIR
: 242 - LIB
: 230 - SCO
: 228 - SAG
: 219 - CAP
: 246 - AQU
: 236 - PIS
: ----------------
: 2911 - SUM
: ----------------
[2]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/ac191ce91efbebad
: RM: The horizontal axis represents time in 2 ways simultaneously --
: firstly as the accumulating sum of birth counts [in sequence as they
: occurred] and secondly as time [divided into 2 halves according to the
: scores]. For example in that graph 251 TAU + VIR people had been born
: in the first 33 years up until 1946 and another 251 were born in the
: 33 years from 1946 until 1979. In this case there was 33 years in each
: half but in other graphs for different projects there are more years
: in one half than in the other.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/a3a3e88db16ce887
: [Correction]
: In my reply I said that half of the data was from 1913 to 1946 but it
: was 1951.
[3]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/825c1f7a981ee529
: [...] We're dealing
: with 2 signs of the zodiac in these projects (in total isolation)
: so we need 1 degree of freedom - not 11.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/eaa58b84d68b09f5
: To find the p-score (probability of this occurring by chance) go to
: this online calculator and enter the Chi squared value of 4.6056 with
: ONE degree of freedom. Answer is p = 0.0319
: http://www.anu.edu.au/nceph/surfstat/surfstat-home/tables/chi.php
[4]
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/ac191ce91efbebad
: (1) I had a database of 41,249 people in 100 categories.
: (2) Filtered for all Virgo's and found 3347
: (3) Printed out all the scores and %'s and X^2 etc for each category.
: (4) Looked for the highest Chi squared result (Basketballers was
: 10.03)
: (5) Looked at the basketballers' Sun signs in isolation in Jigsaw
: ... to find the lowest scoring Sun sign, which was Taurus.
: (6) Isolated the TAU + VIR basketballers in a new file.
: (7) Sorted them into birth order.
: (8) Made a "progressive graph" which showed the scores for
: ... both TAU + VIR as each person was born. The reason for producing
: ... that style of graph was to ascertain if there was any consistency
: during
: ... the 66 year period or whether it was just a wild fluctuation in
: random data.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/3eb4b61f26eddd8d
: > > Continuing with a series of graphs that show consistent trends:
: > > Astrodatabank's birth data for astrologers shows that Aquarians have
: > > gravitated towards astrology as a career or serious hobby more than
: > > Taureans have, for many years.
: > > [See the progressive graph in the Files section of the Google group
: > > "Tropical Astrology Research"]http://tropical-astrology-research.googlegroups.com/web/Astrologers...
: > I could understand the reason for studying Aquarians for a penchant
: > towards choosing astrology as a career, but why contrast these results
: > with Taureans? Why not the other ten signs? Do they represent two
: > extremes?
: > James
:
: RM: Yes that's all it was - showing the two extremes in the data to
: get the best looking result.
)o+
--
Addition 1 (Courtesy to Ray Murphy)
At the right of each curve, printed in orange, is the probability that
the Chi2 value calculated, *as if all of these graphs would correspond
to case A*, is larger than the value calculated by Ray Murphy for the
basketballers, i.e. (285-251)^2/251 = 4.6056. In other words, this is
only an appropriate thing to do in case A, and also to some degree in
case B, but not for the others. For A and B, the value is about 0.3%,
for case D it is about 10%, as expected. (For case C, it is <0.1%).
Addition 2 (Direct reply to Ray Murphy)
: RM: You seem to be unable to grasp what was being said.
: * That the result was p = 0.03
: * That only 502 basketballers were used.
* That you picked the maximal difference for each
category ("basketballers", "astrologers", etc.),
i.e. picked two signs out of twelve, i.e. one in
12*11/2 = 66 choices.
* That you picked a category from 100 categories.
You simply do not understand the concept of statistical
independence. You can look at just one result and you
can calculate the probability of it occuring by chance.
But if you go and select the most improbable results from
a given set of results and then claim that, because you
saw something that is expected 3 times in 100, that this
is a significant result or even just an indication of one,
is just plain wrong if you selected these results from
a large enough set of results, say 66*100 = 6600 ones.
"Know yourself, nothing excess." -- Delphi
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
I would like to tell a little story how me and some
friends of me once tried to statistically catch a
"hard to catch fish"...
When I was young, me and three friends used to play
a board game called "Risk". The board consists of a
somewhat simplified map of Earth with its countries.
You put armies onto each country and you can conquer
adjacent country by throwing dice, as follows.
Let's say, France has 5 yellow armies on it and wants
to attack Spain with 2 red armies on it. The player
for yellow picks as many attack dice as he has armies
on France, but maximally 3, so he picks up three dice
and trows, let's say 6 4 1. The defender can also pick
as many defence dice as armies on Spain, also maximally
3, and can also choose to defend with less, i.e. in
this case he can chose to defend with one or two dice.
Let's say he choses to defend with two and throws 5 4.
Now you sort dice by highest one, and compare them.
6 beats 5, so Spain/red loses one army, and 4 beats 4
(rule is if equal number thrown, defender wins). Thus
in this case Spain loses one army, France loses one
army. And so on.
We used to play this two against two. Me and a friend
had yellow and blue, the other two had red and white.
That lead to quite long games, a bit like in the cold
war where thr world was split into two blocks.
Now one thing was special in these games. One of the
guys in the other team, early Virgo sun, appeared to
throw higher numbers when he was in a good mood, but
lower numbers when he was in a bad mood, maybe when
the overall game was not going good or for any other
reason. I am speaking here about things like 6 6 6
followed by 6 6 5 and more, and then again 2 1 1 etc.
Now me and the guy in my team thought to ourselves:
Let's simply write down what is thrown and then later
analyze the data statistically. We did that a few times
and what happened was this: Things changed, the guy in
the other team did not longer show his good or bad luck
in that direct way, but instead defended well and there
again suprisingly, extraordinarily well in situations
that were strategically important and also then using
close to minimal defence, say 6 2 2 against 6 2 1 or so.
That way the luck simply evaded the framework of our
test setup. It is was not possible to quantify when
a situation is strategically important, and just doing
counts of who threw higher numbers yielded nothing,
in fact me and the guy in my team had even slightly
higher numbers on average than the other two...
With astrology it appears to be the same. Nature seems
in some places just not to be ready to let herself be
revealed by the little tricks that humans want to play
on her. That said, I think astrology is not far from
being ripe to be "cracked". It is possible and I think
it will be done in the not so distant future :)
I see elements of Venus, Mercury, Jupiter, maybe most
strongly emphasized in Pisces/Virgo, or maybe not.
Ted meets Bob who he had not seen for quite a while:
Ted: Hey Bob, strange to see you. Someone told me you
were dead.
Bob: Very funny, obviously not!
Ted: I don't believe you, the other guy was a much
more trustworthy person than you.
"You can bring the cattle to the feeder, but in the
end they have to drink themselves"
-- Unknown source (heard it locally in Switzerland)
[A quote that could have been astrological (Cattle/Taurus),
seems to m also to be quite a bit related to the quote of
C.G. Jung that Apollia mentioned: "When an inner situation
is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate."]
As usual, I guess many factors overlaying, difficult
to single out just one dominant factor...
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Todd Carnes wrote:
: Hermes wrote:
: > "You can bring the cattle to the feeder, but in the
: > end they have to drink themselves"
: > -- Unknown source (heard it locally in Switzerland)
:
: We say..."You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
Interesting, I hope I did not mix up horses and cows :)
I remember from greek mythology that horse races were
the domain of Poseideon (Neptune). In terms of star signs
that reminds, of course, of Sagittarius (centaurs are half
horse) and also of Aquarius (Pegasus, the unicorn, is in
the sector of the constellation Aquarius, and also the
mention of water reminds of the Waterbearer Aquarius).
: Todd :)
:
: --
: Free Astrology Resources (FAR)
: http://carnesoft.quotaless.com
I especially like the collection of astrology books and
texts. One technical detail: You have backslashes \ in
some links there. These do not work for people that are
not browsing with Windows (forward slashes / do).
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
I have updated the page on my site
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/stat/
with the replies below and with some additional
code as a courtesy to Ray Murphy, see below...
Enjoy,
)o+
--
Addition 3 (Direct reply to Ray Murphy)
Ray Murphy:
: > : RM: You seem to be unable to grasp what was being said.
: > : * That the result was p = 0.03
: > : * That only 502 basketballers were used.
:
: > * That you picked the maximal difference for each
: > category ("basketballers", "astrologers", etc.),
: > i.e. picked two signs out of twelve, i.e. one in
: > 12*11/2 = 66 choices.
: > * That you picked a category from 100 categories.
:
: > You simply do not understand the concept of statistical
: > independence. You can look at just one result and you
: > can calculate the probability of it occuring by chance.
: > But if you go and select the most improbable results from
: > a given set of results and then claim that, because you
: > saw something that is expected 3 times in 100, that this
: > is a significant result or even just an indication of one,
: > is just plain wrong if you selected these results from
: > a large enough set of results, say 66*100 = 6600 ones.
:
: RM: As I keep telling you day-after-day that didn't happen.
: I didn't select from 6,600 searches, nor would it matter in the
: slightest if I had, because it is perfectly sensible and valid to
: do that and to report on the findings.
:
: What DID happen, was I got a clue from one survey which led
: me to try something earlier than I would have otherwise in the
: normal course of events. It was a simple comparison between
: highest and lowest scores for Sun signs, and there will be many,
: many more like it to follow for other factors including aspects,
: Gauquelin sectors, Houses etc.
Actually I did exaggerate a little bit above. Actually you did
describe in your own words earlier what you did [4]:
: (1) I had a database of 41,249 people in 100 categories.
: (2) Filtered for all Virgo's and found 3347
: (3) Printed out all the scores and %'s and X^2 etc for each category.
: (4) Looked for the highest Chi squared result (Basketballers was
: 10.03)
: (5) Looked at the basketballers' Sun signs in isolation in Jigsaw
: ... to find the lowest scoring Sun sign, which was Taurus.
: (6) Isolated the TAU + VIR basketballers in a new file.
: (7) Sorted them into birth order.
: (8) Made a "progressive graph" which showed the scores for
: ... both TAU + VIR as each person was born. The reason for producing
: ... that style of graph was to ascertain if there was any consistency
: during
: ... the 66 year period or whether it was just a wild fluctuation in
: random data.
So the selection was Virgos from 100 categories, i.e. a factor
of 100 (not sure how *exactly* you selected the basketballer
ones, but that seems not too relevant). Then you selected the
other basketballer sign with the largest difference, i.e. a
factor of 11. In other words totally 11*100 = 1100 (not 6600).
Has no influence on the logical conclusion, though.
[Note: I did not count the selection of the first sign, Virgo,
because it was a random choice in the sense that apparently no
comparison took place initially between Virgo and the 11 other
signs; this is a case where statistical independence applies
and Virgos can be considered in isolation - whether they like
that or not ;)]
Addition 4 (Courtesy and direct reply to Ray Murphy)
Ray Murphy:
: Now can you tell us what the p-scores were for your graphs
: which were supposedly as good as mine?
I won't calculate p-values, but I modified my site once more
and added Chi2 values for the graphs A to D (in violet numbers
above the orange ones). As explained previously, your way of
calculating Chi2 only really applies to case A. In graph D,
which corresponds, as explained, to you what you actually did,
the chance that the Chi2 calculated your way is bigger than
the value in the basketballers chart, is about 10%, as also
already mentioned previously.
You can easily obtain p-values from sites that calculate it,
like the one you indicated. As for the graphs, about one in
ten will have a p-value of as little or lower as the one that
you presented, take a screenshot or whatever or simulate your
own data... They look pretty much indistinguishable from the
one that you presented, qualitatively and quantitatively.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Todd Carnes wrote:
: Ray Murphy wrote:
: > Now can you tell us what the p-scores were for your graphs
: > which were supposedly as good as mine?
: >
: >> )o+
: >
: > Ray
: >
:
: Did you read his post? he tells you the p-scores.
Well, only indirectly. I told only the probabilities
with which the p-value is lower than the one that Ray
obtained for his data. The problem is, however that Ray
calculates the p-value for something he did not do and
that he apparently is not much amenable to seriously
reconsidering his own thinking, in my personal view.
Actually, over the years this has been my general
impression: Ray Murphy does not seem ever to change
his opinion based on what people tell him, with little
exceptions, he just keeps on fighting for his views.
That is OK in general, but when it comes to science,
he does stumble to apply elementary logic correctly
and consistently. He is just not a scientist and has
difficulties doing some things that are elementary for
scientists. He is more talented for technical things
than apparently many astrologers, but is a layman in
comparison to what people in science do every day. He
appears (helas!) not to be aware of his abilities in
that regime. Trying to explain something to Ray Murphy
using logic and facts is like wading through sirup, for
essentially two reasons in my personal perception: He
apparently stumbles relatively often about some of his
own preconceptions that keep him from applying logic in
the way it should, and moreover he takes criticism that
is addressed at the facts all to personal and, I feel,
is then also not always fair to his own feelings in his
replies to others.
On the up side, his replies often generate replies
by others, I am just not sure if all people involved
always enjoy the kind of dialog that evolves.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Richard Nolle wrote:
> Regarding the recent discussions, I must say that it's invalid to compare
> only two of twelve categories in the manner presented. From my cursory
> following of the discussion, I believe this is the point that Hermes is
> trying to make.
>
> Ray is on to something in one regard: instead of going in with a specific
> hypothesis and testing to see whether it's null or not, go ahead and test
> for with a more general hypothesis (e.g. there is no difference between
> astrological function A and cateogory X). This lets the data speak unimpeded
> by astrological theory and practice. Testing only for things sanctioned by
> astrological tradition could lead to overlooking what works best. And
> probably would, in my estimation . . .
>
> However in any statistical analysis, instead of cherry picking the two
> extreme distributions, the entire range must be evaluated in order to
> determine any real significance: e.g. there are twelve signs, so a
> twelve-category test is the only honest methodology for analyzing by signs.
> Anything less can produce misleading results. IFF the twelve-category test
> comes up significant, then a separate test for the extreme category can be
> performed; or categories where logically supported, e.g. positive signs,
> fire signs, cardinal signs, etc.
>
> AFA still has my introductory book on statistical methodology for
> astrological studies, if anyone's interested: see CRITICAL ASTROLOGY.
>
> A point worth remembering in any case is that statistical research deals
> with samples of populations, whereas astrology as traditionally practiced
> deals with individuals. Statistics yields only probabilities for
> populations, which may or may not be personally relevant for any one
> individual - and it's the individual who comes to the astrologer. In short,
> as useful as properly applied statistical astrology may be for sharpening
> our thought and understanding, it remains existentially irrelevant. (Sort of
> a Heisenberg thing . . .)
>
> --Richard
>
> http://www.astropro.com/
> phone/fax = 480-753-6261
> consultations/orders = 800-527-8761
>
> "Astrology is about time . . . what else is there?"
Thanks for speaking up :)
I guess Saturn (time) is now moving forward again...
[Saturn stationed today]
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Ray Murphy wrote:
: > You can easily obtain p-values from sites that calculate it,
: > like the one you indicated. As for the graphs, about one in
: > ten will have a p-value of as little or lower as the one that
: > you presented, take a screenshot or whatever or simulate your
: > own data... They look pretty much indistinguishable from the
: > one that you presented, qualitatively and quantitatively.
:
: RM: No, the screenshots could not reveal anything better -
: which is why I keep asking for the actual Chi 2 scores that
: are applicable to your graphs.
Did you read my post???
The numbers in violet are Chi2 calculated the way you
like them... from that you can easily derive p-values.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
One more refinement/addition, to be fair...
)o+
--
Addition/Refinement (Courtesy and direct reply to Ray Murphy)
I don't want to dwell on this any more, but since my analysis
did so for not fully reflect what Ray Murphy has actually done
[4], I would like to add this post in order to be be fair.
There is a new graph E on my site at
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/stat/
It is for picking first one sign at random ("Virgo") and then
picking the second one such that the difference between their
counts is maximal. Like curve D, curve E also has two peaks,
but they are closer together than in curve D. The probability
that the difference is at least the value in the basketballers
chart is about 2% (black number right of the peaks). Since the
basketballer chart was selected from a set of 100 different
categories, this is nothing unusual, no provable indication
that Virgos are more likely to become basketballers than
Taureans.
--
http://exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Ray Murphy wrote:
: These are the broken links I'm getting:
:
: [First]
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample/sample.html
:
: [Second]
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample2/sample.html
:
: [Third]
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample3/sample.html
:
: [Fourth]
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/sample4/sample.html
I removed them couple of days ago or so. I also did
not keep the source. Maybe someone else downloaded
the source and kept it. If so, I could recompile the
applets and put things up again, but frankly I see
little point in doing so. As far as I remember, the
first link was equivalent to the two turquoise lines
in graph B at http://www.exactphilosophy.net/stat/ ,
the second and third ones were equivalent to the
turquoise lines for graph D, plus Chi2 and p-values
drawn as progressive graphs in blue and red/green
(along data accumulation), calculated with 11 degrees
of freedom. There was a bug in sample3 that I corrected
in sample2. In sample4 I used a distribution where
Virgo got 2/13 of the counts and all other signs get
1/13. The p-value (for 11 degrees of freedom) quickly
gets very close to zero (<10^-9) in this case, as an
illustration of a clearly significant deviation from
an equal probability for all signs.
)o+
--
http://exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Richard Nolle wrote:
: Regarding the recent discussions, I must say that it's invalid to compare
: only two of twelve categories in the manner presented. From my cursory
: following of the discussion, I believe this is the point that Hermes is
: trying to make.
:
: Ray is on to something in one regard: instead of going in with a specific
: hypothesis and testing to see whether it's null or not, go ahead and test
: for with a more general hypothesis (e.g. there is no difference between
: astrological function A and cateogory X). This lets the data speak unimpeded
: by astrological theory and practice. Testing only for things sanctioned by
: astrological tradition could lead to overlooking what works best. And
: probably would, in my estimation . . .
I agree.
The physicist P.A.M. Dirac once gave a lecture in which he looked
at which approaches in research have been most fruitful. In general,
every researcher is free and should be free to choose any approach
that he/she likes and thinks might give good results. My coach at
IBM Research in the 90's had a good idea while ironing his shirts;
why not? But Dirac noted one thing: Discoverers are usually more
successful once a discrepancy between expected and observed behavior
has been discovered. Very probably because otherwise the "space" of
possible theories is just to big to be successful. Especially in
that sense an open-minded statistical analysis of collected data
appears to be generally a good idea. On the other hand, there are
also many notable exceptions, maybe most prominently how Dirac
found his famous equation that describes electrons in a way that
is compatible with the theory of relativity. He found that equation
by using symmetry properties and other restrictions that any
possible equation of the electron was bound to have. The simplest
solution to these restrictions turned out to be correct.
Anyway, would be great to get "the foot in" with astrology. All
that is needed is "only" a sufficiently large amount of data
that shows a relation to planetary constellations that cannot be
explained by seasons and full moons or other similar things and
optimally for which the amount of data can be expanded in order
to convince also very sceptical people (like me, too).
Open in exploring new things, but sceptical before accepting
them for good, I guess... :)
A simple model that makes many verifiable and largely independent
predictions that all work is certainly preferable, but may only
be possible in a second step. Or maybe not. :)
: However in any statistical analysis, instead of cherry picking the two
: extreme distributions, the entire range must be evaluated in order to
: determine any real significance: e.g. there are twelve signs, so a
: twelve-category test is the only honest methodology for analyzing by signs.
: Anything less can produce misleading results. IFF the twelve-category test
: comes up significant, then a separate test for the extreme category can be
: performed; or categories where logically supported, e.g. positive signs,
: fire signs, cardinal signs, etc.
:
: AFA still has my introductory book on statistical methodology for
: astrological studies, if anyone's interested: see CRITICAL ASTROLOGY.
:
: A point worth remembering in any case is that statistical research deals
: with samples of populations, whereas astrology as traditionally practiced
: deals with individuals. Statistics yields only probabilities for
: populations, which may or may not be personally relevant for any one
: individual - and it's the individual who comes to the astrologer. In short,
: as useful as properly applied statistical astrology may be for sharpening
: our thought and understanding, it remains existentially irrelevant. (Sort of
: a Heisenberg thing . . .)
With basketballers, for example, my personal experience is that
I do not know any Virgos who play basketball. I have Uranus conj.
Pluto in Virgo, but me and all the people I grew up never played
basketball (except later at school, at an age of maybe 15, but
also then never in our spare time). Basketball only came up in
my experience in the early 90's or so, that what when the old
school I went to first installed baskets. In that sense, I have
always associated basketball with the generation with Pluto in
Libra and Neptune in Sagittarius etc. But that is my experience
in Europe, where an "americanization" has only really started in
after the fall of the iron curtain, which may explain at least
part of my experience. On the other hand, baseball and american
football are still not played here by kids, as far as I have
seen - the one big game still remains soccer in Europe (I am not
a fan, but as kid that was what we most often played). Also the
fact that there were no baskets does not really count, we also
had no goals, but used the space between two trees or anything.
Can I really draw a general conclusion from that?
Would a model that works for people born in the USA also work for
Europe? Would it work for India or China where the astrology is
different? In that sense how cultural vs. natural/universal is
astrology? If someone in the future is born on Mars, would a
corresponding birth chart as if born on Earth or one for planets
as seen from Mars be more to the point? If the latter, would you
take the spring point of Mars to define the beginning of Aries
or would you use sideral signs? (what if the person was Indian?)
Many interesting questions that would come into reach once there
is some scientifically solid formal proof that moment and place
of birth have influence on what happens.
)o+
--
Note: At the moment I am not reacting to posts by: Ray Murphy.
(Such reactions made for all it appears to little of a difference)
http://exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
* From: "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
* Subject: Virgos play basketball more than Taureans
* Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:53:33 -0500
* Message-ID: <480982f0$1_4@news.chariot.net.au>
*
* Hi All,
*
* If people who are born under the sign of Taurus and Virgo have equal
* access to the sport of Basketball, then those with Sun in Virgo elect
* to play that sport at a much higher rate than the Sun in Taurus
* people.
*
* See the attached progressive-graph in date order for the 502 people
* listed in Astrodatabank Version 3 who were born in either of those
* signs. There are 285 Virgo and 217 Taurus people born during a 66 year
* period from 1913 to 1979.
*
* The observation is statistically significant at about the 0.03 level
* when a comparison is made between those 2 signs in isolation.
*
* Noon times have been used for all births.
*
* [Graph has been posted in the Files section of the Google Group
* "Tropical astrology Research"]
* http://tropical-astrology-research.googlegroups.com/web/Basketballers.gif?gda=U2MV2kUAAAAR4o_U4Mb1ar5u1N08e_lzoV3BSWdITZ_Q3wqNGgyUGOG2sVwGLF-i21hNBTL4y6OkNTLimnrPyTN8pl8xhyRsrnbirdOKW0UubKy7Gu2GBQ&gsc=1rI-yAsAAABS4Ee1kLUl647TiZkjb1-K
*
* Ray
For all it appears, this post claims to present a significant indication
that Virgos become more often basketballers than Taureans.
As usual in RMs posts, things are not 100% specific. The first sentence
of the post, for example, reminds me personally a lot of "if the moon is
made of green cheese, I can fly around the moon". In my experience and
personal perception, RM usually replies only to part of what someone else
wrote in each sentence, and very often interpreting that part differently
from what apparently the original poster intended to say. Moreover, in
my personal experience, also RMs replies are kept ambivalent by either
leaving away some details or making statements that are contradictory or
undecided from a purely logical point of view. That usually leaves the
other side, in my view and personal perception, facing a messy heap of
things that appear to be necessary to clarify. With each attempt to do so,
however, things usually tend to grow worse by more subsequent replies by
RM, almost exponentially so. But that is factually just RMs style, and
I leave it to the discretion of the reader how to handle this or not... :)
That made it somewhat more difficult to isolate the essential facts in the
case of the basketballer graph, but for all it seems, I got them from RMs
replies in the end.
So, in the following I will focus on that, even though more philosophical
questions like what is "random", how does it relate to "predictability",
"complexity", "white noise", "meaning of a message" would be interesting,
too, but were maybe more interesting with Pluto in Sagittarius. Instead I
would like in the following to focus on whether the presented graph, plus
how it was obtained, represent a scientifically significant result, a
formal scientific proof or maybe just an indication, a "signpost", that
Virgos would in fact in general be more likely to become basketballers
than Taureans. In other words, would one expect if the study was extended
to everybody on earth to find significantly more Virgos than Taureans who
become baskeball players? Or is this just an expected peak in noise, i.e.
almost certainly no reason to focus on this instead of on other things?
The graph looks as follows (in case the graph should no longer be online
some years from now and somebody should read this):
- rectangle
- left scale: 0 - 300 (labeled 0, 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300)
- bottom scale: 0 - 502 (labeled 0, 251, 502)
- top scale: 1913 - 1978 (labeled 0, 1951, 1978)
- numbers on each scale a equal relative distance within each scale
- two curves
- a blue one from bottom left (0,0) to top right (502,217)
- labeled "TAURUS (217)"
- a violet one from bottom left (0,0) to top right (502,285)
- labeled "VIRGO (285)"
- the two curves are relatively close to being two straight lines
- text at top left corner: "Basketballers in Astrodatabank, Virgo
consistently more frequent than Taurus for 66 years of birth"
Now let me gather some more facts:
* From: Ray Murphy <raymur@chariot.net.au>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
* Subject: Re: Virgos play basketball more than Taureans
* Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:23:07 -0500
* Message-ID: <143c64a4-6a43-4a8b-9b90-3b842096926d@r9g2000prd.googlegroups.com>
[...]
* RM: The horizontal axis represents time in 2 ways simultaneously --
* firstly as the accumulating sum of birth counts [in sequence as they
* occurred] and secondly as time [divided into 2 halves according to the
* scores]. For example in that graph 251 TAU + VIR people had been born
* in the first 33 years up until 1946 and another 251 were born in the
* 33 years from 1946 until 1979. In this case there was 33 years in each
* half but in other graphs for different projects there are more years
* in one half than in the other.
[...]
* RM: For the same time span (1913 to 1979) there were 2409
* basketballers in the database for the other 10 signs.
*
* 239 -- ARI
* 217 -- TAU
* 224 - GEM
* 277 - CAN
* 268 - LEO
* 285 - VIR
* 242 - LIB
* 230 - SCO
* 228 - SAG
* 219 - CAP
* 246 - AQU
* 236 - PIS
* ----------------
* 2911 - SUM
* ----------------
[...]
* These were my steps:
*
* (1) I had a database of 41,249 people in 100 categories.
* (2) Filtered for all Virgo's and found 3347
* (3) Printed out all the scores and %'s and X^2 etc for each category.
* (4) Looked for the highest Chi squared result (Basketballers was 10.03)
* (5) Looked at the basketballers' Sun signs in isolation in Jigsaw
* ... to find the lowest scoring Sun sign, which was Taurus.
* (6) Isolated the TAU + VIR basketballers in a new file.
* (7) Sorted them into birth order.
* (8) Made a "progressive graph" which showed the scores for
* ... both TAU + VIR as each person was born. The reason for producing
* ... that style of graph was to ascertain if there was any consistency during
* ... the 66 year period or whether it was just a wild fluctuation in random data.
and
* From: "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
* Subject: Re: Virgos play basketball more than Taureans
* Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:24:38 -0500
* Message-ID: <4815f567@news.comindico.com.au>
[...]
* [Correction]
* In my reply I said that half of the data was from 1913 to 1946 but it
* was 1951.
and
* From: "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
* Subject: Re: Virgos play basketball more than Taureans
* Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:30:22 -0500
* Message-ID: <4815e6bd@news.comindico.com.au>
[...]
* RM: That's effectively what the progressive graphs are showing - that
* there were more Virgo basketballers than Taurus basketballers born in
* time blocks for the whole 66 year period. The reason why I introduced
* the progressive graphs is to smooth out the fluctuations that
* naturally occur with tiny amounts of data.
and finally
* From: "Ray Murphy" <raymur@chariot.net.au>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.moderated
* Subject: Astrology Statistics for Dummies
* Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:08:59 -0500
* Message-ID: <4818f905$1@news.comindico.com.au>
[...]
* Astrology Statistics for dummies:
* [Finding Chi squared with only 2 bars in a graph]
*
* (abbreviations commonly used are X^2 -- or -- Chi2)
*
* Example below is from the Basketballers thread:
*
* Virgo score . = 285
* Taurus score = 217
* ----------------------
* SUM .......... = 502
* ----------------------
* Expected score for Virgo = 251
* Expected score for Taurus = 251
*
* Formula:
* X^2 = (Obs score - Exp score) squared, divided by Expected score
*
* X^2 = (285 - 251) = 34 squared = 1156 divided by 251 = 4.6056
*
* To find the p-score (probability of this occurring by chance) go to
* this online calculator and enter the Chi squared value of 4.6056 with
* ONE degree of freedom. Answer is p = 0.0319
* http://www.anu.edu.au/nceph/surfstat/surfstat-home/tables/chi.php
*
* To convert the p-score into intelligible probability numbers for
* astrologers we divide it into 1.
* 1 divided by 0.0319 = 33.3480
*
* This means that if we repeat the test with 33 more sets of 502
* VIR + TAU basketballers we might get the same good p-score
* again just by chance.
Phew!
OK, first a word about the double horizontal scales. For all that it
appears, the lower horizontal scale is the one that really counts,
i.e. it is sum of counts of Virgo plus Taurus basketballers in the
order in which they were born. The years indicated on top are just
indications of the corresponding birth years for 3 specific values
on the bottom scale. (This is also obvious from the fact that 1951
is not (1979+1913)/2; 1946 would be arithmetically in the middle.)
Now, that way of drawing data is already a bit unusual because it
mixes the scales. The vertical scale, counts of Virgo resp. Taurus
basketballers versus sum of both in the horizontal scale. This has
the overall effect of smoothing out some fluctuations. It is also
not unexpected that the two curves are close to straight lines, very
simply because straight lines are more probable than ones that do
get closer and get away from each other or would even cross. Note
that because the horizontal scale is the sum of the counts for the
two curves, each step of one curve is mirrored by a corresponding
step of the lower curve.
So, overall, the fact that one sees two straight lines is not an
unusual or unexpected thing. Remains the question of whether the
difference at the end is in any way significant or an indication
of that sort.
Apparently the graph was obtained as follows:
1) Choice to look at Virgos.
2) Selection of basketballers from 100 different categories. Not 100%
sure how exactly the Virgos were selected, not sure what exactly
point (3) in RMs reply above means. But it is sure that there was
a selection process used that aimed to create a maximal difference
between counts of Virgo and another sign. (In more detail: The way
that RM calculated a Chi2 value in the end was (diff)^2/(sum/2),
which aims to maximize the difference relative to the sum, which
is for each category separately roughly equivalent to maximizing
the difference.)
Conclusion: A factor of about 100 must be taken into account when
estimating the significance of the result.
3) The sign with the count with the largest difference was selected.
Again, more precisely, the Chi2 value in the way RM calculated it
was maximized, i.e. (285-count)2/(sum/2). Since in this case, the
count of Virgos is above the expected mean, 2911/12 = 242.6, the
chances of a value lower than the average to give a maximal Chi2
value are bigger than for one bigger than the average (Note that
a count for a second sign means a smaller sum which means a larger
Chi2 value).
Conclusion: A factor of 11 must be taken into account when
estimating the significance of the result.
The selection of one of 11 signs already makes the probability of
getting a difference of 0 extremely small (counts for all 12 signs
would have to be exactly equal). A computer simulation shows that a
difference of about 30 is roughly what has the maximal chance of
happening. Smaller and larger differences are less likely. As the
simulation also shows, the chance of finding a difference of as much
as the count in the basketballers graph, 284-217 = 68, is close to
0.02 = 2% = 2 in 100.
Since this graph was effectively selected from 100 possible ones,
and selected essentially to give maximal difference, it is not at
all astonishing to see this graph and thus provides no scientific
proof, not even the slightest indication, that Virgos might in fact
in general become basketballers more often than Taureans.
In terms of divination, the whole thing is certainly interesting,
but one should not overlook that in terms of divination, almost
every graph is likely to show something that makes it special, that
fits with the signs and the category involved. One graph might show
actually lines that do cross - also something not very likely to
happen, but maybe likely to encounter in a set of 100 categories and
12 signs. It is thus simply and conclusively unfair to ignore the
others and just to focus on the difference of counts at the end.
I guess I have no choice but to leave this post archived to keep
the message in one piece... :)
PS: Note Sedna transit across my natal north node and now joined by
transiting sun (and of course, Mars has entered Leo). There is maybe
a bit too much attention on Eris and Pluto these days, while Sedna
is still the biggest object in its category and realm. In that sense,
current times, like the ones after discoveries of Uranus, Neptune,
Pluto (and Lilith, now in early Sag, trine Mars), and maybe Cheiron,
might be more influenced by Sedna than by Eris and Pluto.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
RM wrote:
* RM: No, it's merely an observation that can occur very rarely.
[...]
* RM: No, my posts have always had a strong theme of getting to
* the core of things and finding the bottom line and making things
* exceedingly plain.
[...]
* RM: That is how ordinary people communicate.
[...]
* RM: That is also perfectly normal, and that's why we have questions
* and answers and direct interaction - so that any misunderstandings
* are cleared up. It's pointless for you to keep 'nailing proclamations
* to the wall' and declining to respond directly to questions aand then
* expecting a different outcome.
[...]
* RM: No, it's the other way round. In this case the following things
* happened:
* (a) The data source (Astrodatabank) was specified.
* (b) A graph was provided
* (c) The numbers were specified
* (d) The stats calculations were shown in long hand.
* (e) A link was provided for the p-score calculations
* (f) The selection process was explained in simple steps.
* (g) All questions were answered in detail
* (h) Ongoing discussion was invited
* (i) An itemised breakdown of all figures was provded.
[...]
* RM: It's called "conversation" and if strawman arguments are
* repeatedly introduced, then it is *they* that cause confusion and
* delay.
[...]
* RM: This confirms that conversation actually works.
[...]
* RM: It would have been much easier if you had answered the
* series of questions I repeatedly raised. I ended up answering
* some of them mysef by conducting tests - which showed that
* your graphs were very rubbery.
[...]
* RM: What a strange endeavour - when you have already been
* repeatedly told that it was merely an observation that is worth watching..
* You still fail to comprehend that no "scientific claim" was made, and it
* is only ~you~ who is using the word "proof".
[...]
* RM: You seem unaware that on one hand you are saying that the
* observation is totally insignificant if 11 degreees of freedom are used,
* but on the other hand you think it might be worthwhile to investigate
* further to see if you can demolish the good p-score.
[...]
* [.....]
[...]
* RM: Yes, the scale at the bottom of the graph show how many
* subjects were used - 502.
[...]
* RM: Yes, the top of the graph shows the year range of the subjects
* births..
[...]
* RM: Yes, because it is a "progressive graph" to show what was
* happening at any given point in time.
[...]
* RM: Yes, that is exactly what is expected in all progressive graphs.
[...]
* RM: No, you've got that wrong. Straight lines like that are in fact
* rare.
[...]
* RM: Yes, that's because *one* birthdate is added every time it
* occurred. If it was a Virgo birthdate, then Virgo gets a score of +1
* and if it's Taurus, then it gets a score of +1. All perfectly normal in
* a progressive graph.
[...]
* RM: No, that's not true. Straight lines are rare - and straight lines
* with large gaps in progressive graphs are very rare.
[...]
* RM: No, (as I've mentioned before) the "100" has got nothing to do
* with any calculations. As I've repeatedly told you, the previous search
* was only to find some good places to look - which would have been
* done anyway, however if you want to go rummaging for some more
* red herrings - why not toss in the fact that another 72 things were
* used prior to selecting Virgo-Taurus? Why not add the fact that
* I compared the following pairs of scores before settling on
* Virgo-Taurus:
* Ari-Tau
* Ari-Gem
* Ari- Can
* Ari-Leo
* Ari-Vir
* Ari-Lib
* Ari-Sco
* Ari-Sag
* Ari-Cap
* Ari-Aqu
* Ari-Pis
* -------
* Tau-Gem
* Tau-Can
* Tau-Leo
* Tau-Vir ****
* Tau-Lib
* Tau-Sco
* Tau-Sag
* Tau-Cap
* Tau-Aqu
* Tau-Pis
* ---------
[...]
* --------
* Sag-Cap
* Sag-Aqu
* Sag-Pis
* ---------
* Cap-Aqu
* Cap-Pis
* ---------
* Aqu-Pis
* ---------
*
* See -- if you add these 72 and use "172 instead of "100" you'll be
* able to create some sort of illusion that the terrible scores for the
* *impressive looking graph* are more terrible still. I mean if you are
* REALLY lucky and you play your math right - you'll be able to
* arrive at a conclusion that such a graph can occur by chance 1.2
* times, for every time you look.
[...]
* RM: But let me guess -- there's no way you will ever declare what
* the p-score is for such a rubbery equation?
[...]
* RM: No, that's not true at all. A computer simulaton will generate
* nice looking bell curves with a range that goes far beyond what you
* are claiming AND my graph ocurs in the range of about 2.5 in a 1000
* to 4 in 1000 in those tests - where over 100,000 simulations have
* been done, graphed and logged in various batches.
[...]
* RM: You have omitted the fact that 72 other comparisons were used.
[...]
* RM: You are the only one using the term "scientific proof". It is
* in reality one of your bundle of strawman arguments.
[...]
* RM: The graph indicates the opposite to what you are claiming
* here -- that there IS more than a slight indication, and when more
* data was added (and inserted in birthdate sequence) the trend
* remained. -- See "Basketballers 546 graph"
* http://tropical-astrology-research.googlegroups.com/web/Basketballers%20546.gifgda=tGKcqkkAAAAQNA5N9Y5joLyqjZA9sbURVRBZMACii1Lb4X2x_m9nZuG2sVwGLF-i21hNBTL4y6OkNTLimnrPyTN8pl8xhyRsA_BIvsD6VxCSDK0HhBEkYg
[...]
* RM: Talk about grasping as straws!
* This observation seems to have really rattled some skeptics and
* skeptic-astrologers.
* It's making me wonder what will happen when this observation is put to
* one side and I bring out the better stuff.
[...]
* Ray
What is "real"? At least Jupiter/Neptune seem to have their own
ideas about that topic:
Yesterday I saw a documentary about the Dalai Lama and Tibet.
Actor Richard Gere (Bhuddist and former husband of Cindy Crawford)
told of how he first met the Dalai Lama. He was introduced as a US
actor. The Dalai Lama then immediately asked him something along
this: "So you are an actor. Tell me, if you play someone who is
sad are you then *really* sad? If you play an angry person are
you then *really* angry? If you play an evil person, are you then
*really* evil?". Richard Gere said that he was as astonished about
such a deep question right at the beginning of a conversation and
he replied what (he said) every actor replies in such a situation,
that yes, it is important to make it real, to really feel it. To
that the Dalai Lama replied: "So then the question is settled, it
is really so that you are angry or evil when you play". And then
he started to laugh... :)
So then is it *really* so that Virgos are more likely to become
basktetball players than Taureans? I leave it to the readers to
make their own choices :) :) :)
Here is a piece of greek mythology about Poseidon (Neptune) from
Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths", 16c.:
: Poseidon is greedy of earthly kingdoms, and once claimed possession of
: Attica by thrusting his trident into the acropolis at Athens, where a
: well of sea-water immediately gushed out and is still to be seen [...].
: Later, during the reign of Cecrops, Athene came and took possession in
: a gentler manner, by planting the first olive-tree beside the well.
: Poseidon, in a fury, challenged her to a single combat, and Athene
: would have accepted had not Zeus interposed and ordered them to submit
: the dispute to arbitration. [...] Zeus himself expressed no opinion,
: but while all the other gods supported Poseidon, all the godesses
: supported Athene. Thus by a majority of one, the court ruled that
: Athene had the better right to the land, because she had given it a
: better gift. [Poseidon got angry then, but read for yourselves...]
Anyway,
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Apollia wrote:
[...]
: I won't be reading anymore either since it will tempt me to post more
: and expend all too much time and energy that I should be focusing
: exclusively on solving various problems. I just have been frittering
: away too much time and energy lately on numerous things that probably
: aren't going to benefit me in the long run - I guess I just have too
: many Neptunian traits or something.
:
: Fortunately, I also have Mercury/Mars trine Pluto, which perhaps
: correlates with how it's clear to me that I need to draw the line,
: quit, and move on to more fruitful endeavors instead of lingering due
: to habit, aimless lack of goals, and other Neptunian reasons, etc.
:
: Thanks for all the interesting discussions, everyone. I'll probably
: be back eventually, if my financial situation, etc. ever stabilize.
: If anyone really wants to contact me, email is fine.
You can do it, you are way tougher than you might think. :)
Mars into Leo, conjunct n.node/Venus is probably a good
opportunity to make a step, but that is for you to know...
Anyway, for me things are often similar in usenet, although
I do not have financial problems, usenet activities tend to
eat up a lot of energy and time and keep me from getting the
calmness to start some things that really help me in the end.
Usenet is nice as a hobby if the rest is sorted out, but as
a primary focus it should only be so in exceptional situations,
at least in my opinion and perception. (Not that this is the
first time that I say so, but maybe worth repeating here.)
Currently I am learning for the "Sun Certified Java Programmer"
exam (the company I work for offers several days per year for
learning new things and pays for the exam etc.). Is quite a
change for me after working in computer science for more than
ten years to learn something that way again. I guess also quite
a bit of a Saturn in Virgo thing, need to know many things a lot
more in detail than what you would typcially encounter on the
job - but that is only passively - once you know the details,
you can start to do new, more sophisticiated things with them.
I guess balancing things is important in life, to have several
things that one does regularily - avoids that one just falls
into a mode where one thing grows out of proportion. OK, with
Uranus in Pisces, that is maybe not all to easy, but still...
I am quite shy (at least outside of usenet). Maybe does not
show as much as when I was younger, but still so. Sun in the
first house in Leo, moon in Aries at the MC - is that what any
astrology book would say? But wait, there is Venus-Mars-Jupiter
closely conjunct in that order in Cancer in the 12th. Is the
12th house really related to Pisces? Don't prisons, hospitals
etc. maybe also remind a bit of a closed shell like Cancer?
And Mercury at the AC, but still in the 12th, is that like a
first house Mercury or a 12th house one? And Saturn+Cheiron
in Pisces, is that a lack of openness, plus Uranus/Pluto in
Virgo, too picky? And Neptune at the s.node, no more drive
to cross boundaries and take control in this life?
For me the discovery of Sedna has actually made quite a big
difference, it materialized right on my n.node. Where should
all the creativity, all the beautiful growth of spring go if
there are no fingers (Sedna has them cut off). Is more like
a Venus approach that works, then (also because my n.node is
in Taurus, i.e. ruled by Venus), no active fights for anything,
just very, very slowly letting things evolve. (OK, with my
sun and moon in fire signs, there is a lot of noise around
all of that, but it does not really stick).
This spring my site has grown just a little bit, I have now
archived web2008.zip and with it some older things, to make
some room to let them regrow (and to let other things regrow
outside of cyberspace, of course)...
Anyway, I will stay in contact (by e-mail). At the latest in
June when the first publication that cites an idea from my
site will be published (in the Journal of Chinese Philosophy,
by the way, quite interestingly not in something "Western").
Good luck and best wishes,
Alain )o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
RM wrote:
* [....]
[...]
* RM: It's been obvious for about 150 posts what is real here -
* a system has been devised to zero-in on factors in astrological
* research data for locating statistically significant results very
* quickly. In this example (one of the weaker ones) computer
* simulations have repeatedly given a result of p = .004 or better.
[...]
* RM: The additon of several hundred more cases since the
* basketballers' observation was first mentioned has certainly
* confirmed the trend but it would be quite wrong for any astrologer
* to follow your advice and make a choice about what is real in
* relation to Virgo + Taurus until a lot more work is done.
*
* Of course the data is real and can be verified with Astrodatabank,
* and the consistent trend depicted by the graph is real and can be
* checked, and the p-score of 0.004 is real and can be verified by
* computer simulations.
*
* [....]
[...]
* Ray
Thanks for taking the time to reply and good luck with your
future research. "Don't call us, we will call you." Cool how
Zeus (Jupiter) in the myth quoted before decided a matter by
choosing *not* to decide... I wonder if Poseidon noticed?
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
RM wrote (quoting me):
: > * Ray
: >
: > Thanks for taking the time to reply and good luck with your
: > future research. "Don't call us, we will call you."
: >
: > )o+
Oops... Where did the "Cool how Zeus (Jupiter) in the myth
quoted before decided a matter by choosing *not* to decide...
I wonder if Poseidon noticed?" passage of my post go? :)
)o+
Ray Murphy wrote:
: RM: Continuing on, for the others who have an interest in the Virgo-
: Taurus basketballers:-
:
: VIR + TAU basketballers
: 285 -- 217 -- SUN
: 247 -- 225 -- MOO
: 252 -- 200 -- MER
: 317 -- 209 -- VEN
: 326 -- 211 -- MAR
: ------------------------
: 1427 - 1062
: ------------------------
Now *that* looks more like a real indication...
What took you so long? :)
I have been doing my own kind of meta-research all along:
**********************************************************
* To me it looks like really the roles of northern lunar *
* node and southern lunar node are switched depending on *
* whether you are on the northern or southern hemisphere.*
**********************************************************
(The northern lunar node is ascending seen from the northern
hemisphere, but descending seen from the southern hemisphere,
and vice versa for the southern lunar node.)
Thus always swimming against a larger northern hemisphere
current (larger population north of the equator) if you are
living in Australia (or somewhere else south of the equator),
I guess... Or am I still dreaming?
Quote from my site (re-added section "evolutions"):
: evolutions
:
: Some ideas only maybe have a chance in this world if you
: let them first evolve in a protected environment. The trick
: is to put immediate counter arguments aside at first, only
: to later reconsider them and see what might stick...
I can be reached by e-mail (see my site).
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
One day I might write "raybot", "hermebot" etc. programs
that isolate the stereotypical sides of each poster...
or maybe not. Conversely, isolating stereotypical stuff
from posters and correlating that with date and time of
the first post under that screen name, might be even more
fruitful, but, no, I forgot - it is ray better to focus
just on real birth data, no matter if reliable birth data
is available there in quantity and no matter how difficult
it is to add more - no, no, also forget about just using
the already digitized and thus (in a way) objective bits
that usenet and the internet in general provide for free
and in huge quantities. Not do it the way prescribed and
only that way. Crusade and purification rule!
Then again, I keep myself out of this... :) :) :)
)o+
Ray Murphy wrote:
: RM: Continuing on, for the others who have an interest in the Virgo-
: Taurus basketballers:-
:
: VIR + TAU basketballers
: 285 -- 217 -- SUN
: 247 -- 225 -- MOO
: 252 -- 200 -- MER
: 317 -- 209 -- VEN
: 326 -- 211 -- MAR
: ------------------------
: 1427 - 1062
: ------------------------
Now *that* looks more like a real indication...
What took you so long? :)
I have been doing my own kind of meta-research all along:
**********************************************************
* To me it looks like really the roles of northern lunar *
* node and southern lunar node are switched depending on *
* whether you are on the northern or southern hemisphere.*
**********************************************************
(The northern lunar node is ascending seen from the northern
hemisphere, but descending seen from the southern hemisphere,
and vice versa for the southern lunar node.)
Thus always swimming against a larger northern hemisphere
current (larger population north of the equator) if you are
living in Australia (or somewhere else south of the equator),
I guess... Or am I still dreaming?
Quote from my site (re-added section "evolutions"):
: evolutions
:
: Some ideas only maybe have a chance in this world if you
: let them first evolve in a protected environment. The trick
: is to put immediate counter arguments aside at first, only
: to later reconsider them and see what might stick...
I can be reached by e-mail (see my site).
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
[note crosspost; in the last 2 months or so all posts sent
solely to aam did not arrive, I suppose a problem on the
side of my ISP or something like that...]
Two quotes from the "Quotes that could have been astrological"
thread of this winter at aam...
Kjell wrote (9 March 2008):
: "There is really no astrological evidence that science is anything
: more than a medieval superstition"
:
: -- Stephen James
Apollia wrote (13 February 2008):
: "See first, think later, then test. But always see first. Otherwise
: you will only see what you were expecting. Most scientists forget
: that."
:
: --Douglas Adams. Collected 21:47 2/14/2008.
The first quote looks like a witty reply to "There is really
no astrological evidence that astrology is anything more than
a medieval superstition". In that sense it is fine, but what
disturbs me a bit about it is that astrology is rather a child
of The Renaissance than of The Middle Ages.
Let me try to put this into perspective astrologically.
Basically, science puts reality (Earth) before anything else.
From observation of reality, some laws (Air) are derived or
conversely first hypotheses are devised and then tested in
experiment. In any case, nature/reality, i.e. Earth, "rules".
That apparently makes science "Earth with a bit of Air", i.e.
Virgo, the middle Earth sign, ruled by Mercury.
In http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip => discoveries.pdf
I postulate that Astrological Ages are primarily influenced by
the respective sign, but also, to a lesser degree, by the opposite
sign in the zodiac, both by design and as a natural counterreaction
to too much bias caused by one sign. Naturally, one would also
expect the opposite sign to show more in the second half or so
of each Astrological Age.
For example, that ancient Greek philosophy and other rather airy
constructs emerged in the second half of the Age of Aries could
be seen as a counterreaction to Aries. Similarly, after the
first 1000 years CE/AD religion had gained lots of influence and
books (Mercury) and other knowledge from antiquity had been
almost completely lost in the "Dark Ages" in Middle Europe, it
was during the Renaissance that people started to look more
concretely at nature again.
Naturalistic paintings, scientific analyis, and so on...
This explains maybe also the shift in science during the previous
100 years or something like this and also especially during the
last two decades or so, with Uranus and Neptune passing through
Aquarius. The Age of Aquarius is approaching and with it a more
airy and fixed view of Science, where a cohesive uniform view of
science takes more and more precedence over direct observation.
Not officially, of course, but ideas that do not fit in find it
apparently more and more difficult to get interest and funding.
Science has in many respect become just a slave of technology.
Only what appears to be useful for the next wave of technlogy
(Aquarius' zeal to distribute the knowledge of "the Gods" like
rain distributes water to everybody), almost only that has it
easy to get funding and attention.
Ouranos in greek mythology banned the creatures that he did not
want to see to Tartaros, to the underworld. (Not forever, as they
came up again during revolution). Maybe the view crafted by Freud
and Jung of a conscious mind above a (collective) unconconscious
with a rather rigid and fixed border between the two, is mainly
aquarian, was maybe not so much how things have been at other
times in history.
So, is "see first, think later" (Virgo) a thing of the past, and
it the future merely a succession of fashion trends?
It must be noted that although science has been very successful
in a pragmatic sense (predict concrete events, built technology)
and it has also given lots of insights into the workings of
nature, fundamentally, answers have not been very usefuly.
For example, the ancient Greeks put up the question of whether
there are "atoms" things that are "indivisible". If you divide
a block of material into smaller and smaller pieces, do you
reach an end at some time (atoms) or can you continue forever?
For some time a bit more than 100 years ago, the answer seemed
to be yes, there are atoms. But not so much later, further
experiments showed that atoms are composed of electrons, protons
and neutrons, and today even the latter two are know to be
divisible. Future experiments may reveal even smaller ones.
Similarly fundamental questions like whether the future is
predetermined in principle (if you knew all measurable quantities
of all things in the world at one moment, could you predict the
future?) have been answered differently by science over its
history and there is no quarantee that an experiment conducted
tomorrow is not going to change it all again the next day...
So, from an astrological perspective, one would conclude that
science has its bias, is colored by the time it was invented and
is thus more suitable to judge and be used in some situations
than in others. Shortcomings are e.g. negligence of Water and
Fire, except during the process of finding new theories of
devising hypotheses. Astonishingly it is especially hypotheses
that get a harder and harder time in "this Age" to get some
serious attention except resistance - but I guess this has always
been a bit like that, it is a natural consequence of learning
that people start then to replace the reality (Earth) on which
the theories (Air) are based by the latter, especially so in
the Age of Aquarius, though... :)
Also, the scientific division of the world into observer and
the observed world, is a bias that is hard to overcome for some
considerations.
But, turning things around again, is it really only so that
astrology is a full superset of science, that only science is
bound in its time, while astrology is timeless?
Not necessarily and certainly not in all details. Many aspects
of astrology as we use it today have apparently emerged during
Hellenistic times, i.e. not far before 0 CE/AD. So one would
expect astrology to be "Late Age of Aries" or "Early Age of
Pisces", although its roots are most likely a lot older.
Obviously astrology has changed over history and will continue
to do so, and different astrological methods and items (signs,
aspects, elements, houses, house systems, progressions, midpoints,
you name it...) have also their symbolic bias and are thus maybe
best applied used in similar situation. Maybe even birth charts
of different people should generally be investigated with the
method(s) that best fit the chart. (Obviuously, such things make
it difficult to formalize and formally proove things in astrology).
What about other cultures. They have different astrologies and
other systems like the I Ching etc. Are they all just the same
thing seen from a different angle or are some more "true" or
more "complete" than others and should the "better" ones rather
be used to take a look at the more biased ones... ?
Finally a word on Cancer. Gemini is the child that plays, that
looks at many things or at one thing from many sides. But at some
point one no longer wants to see everything, curiosity has been
satisfied, the butterfly who used to fly from flower to flower
has brought the pollen to the flowers and fruit start to grow.
A bit more abstractly, the different things that have been seen
and learned are brought into contact in the head and from this
new things start to grow. That observation (new things emerge when
two things are brought together that have before than or at least
not recently been considered together), is from the physicist
Gerd Binnig, in a book he called "Aus dem Nichts", "out of nothing".
Not too astonishingly his birth date is: 20 July 1947.
(I posted a post with the same title too aam only yesteday, but
it does not seem to get to the moderation queue - luckily, because
this one is of much better quality, in my feeling... :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
[note crosspost; sorry, cannot get through to a.a.m alone
since some time, tried posting via my usual ISP and also via
e-mail using the provider of my web site, no success so far,
maybe a spam filter or maybe just bad luck (s.node conjunct
natal sun, for example) at the moment?]
Petrus (petrus4@tpg.com.au) wrote:
[quoting Apollia]
: > Capricorn rising and 29 Libra at the MC again, just like the July 12th
: > Montpelier showing.
:
: Libra MC is extremely telling. IMHO, balance is going to be one of the
: major themes that will be explored here. As in, the balance between anarchy
: at one extreme, (the Joker) and fascism at the other. (Batman, according to
: Frank Miller's interpretation)
:
: Basically what I think the film is going to be about, in a higher or
: analagous sense, is essentially a much more urgent repetition of the warning
: to people (Americans primarily, but other people as well) that the imbalance
: towards fascism is starting to go *way* too far. If the imbalance continues
: to deteriorate, then it is entirely likely that we may end up with a figure
: emerging to match Bush's tyranny, but from the other (anarchist) end of the
: spectrum.
:
: What I'm talking about here is a depiction of the attempt to correct said
: imbalance by shifting violently from one extreme to the other, as was
: depicted in the film The Day After Tomorrow. In that film, another ice age
: was triggered in order to correct the imbalance of global warming. In the
: case of the Dark Knight, the Joker (Mercury, Uranus, Pluto) emerges to
: correct the imbalance towards chronic order leading to fascism, that has
: begun to be imposed by Batman.
:
: There was talk on the set about Ledger's performance that actually made use
: of the word "channelled." I believe it was, and that what he was
: channelling was ultimately what killed him. During a later appearance, Jack
: Nicholson was apparently heard to say, "I did warn him," implying that he
: also had encountered something dangerous while acting as the Joker himself.
:
: It's also interesting that the films mention the concept of escalation; I
: think we've been seeing that with regards to the progressive sequence of
: films themselves.
:
: With the Matrix, we had our initial, basic wakeup call analogy, which was
: also about the need to balance Saturn (Agent Smith) and Uranus (Neo). Neo
: ultimately comes to realise at the end of the third film that the only way
: to truly beat Smith (Saturn) is not to fight, but to attempt integration.
: When that occurred, a new equilibrium followed, which integrated both
: elements rather than rejecting either.
:
: Although it had some radical concepts, in some ways that was comparitively
: much less intimidating, IMHO. Then we had Batman Begins a couple of years
: ago. That film primarily dealt with the confrontation of fear, and also the
: finding of the internal "sovereign individual," in order to confront and
: ultimately replace the external sovereign. (Bush in this case) That film
: was also progressively more intimidating.
:
: However, because the larger majority of the population continues to wilfully
: ignore the message, the films are becoming more and more intimidating,
: wrenching, and urgent in tone. Hence, I expect the Dark Knight to be the
: most intimidating of the lot that have followed this particular pattern so
: far.
According to the Internet Movie Database, the release date of
The Matrix was 31 March 1999. Even though the actual premiere
was likely a bit earlier (I suppose), that puts the mean lunar
nodes almost exactly opposite the ones for The Dark Knight.
In my observation and feeling, meanings of nodes are reversed
on the southern hemisphere as opposed to the nodes on the
northern hemisphere: The one that is perceived as ascending
on one hemisphere is perceived as descending on the other,
and vice versa (up and down in the sky are reversed Down Under).
Would also fit with the recent visit of the pope to Australia
(e.g. Liz Greene associates Leo with religion, re-connecting).
I guess Australia itself has the axis Leo-Aquarius quite a
bit emphasized in its birth chart(s), if I remember correctly.
So maybe the feeling that The Dark Knight resembles The Matrix
is also somewhat due to that and influence of the former might
be more prominent in the south, or maybe not, I am not sure.
Your last paragraph above sounds quite a bit "Uranus in Scorpio"
to me, at about 20 Sco for Heath Ledger. I have Neptune and the
southern lunar node there. And also quite a few planets where
he has (had) his, but with notable exceptions.
In my feeling, The Matrix was more for a generation around mine
(*1966), with Pluto in Virgo and Neptune in Scorpio etc., while
The Dark Knight might rather appeal to or concern younger people.
Personally, also the first Matrix movie did not impress me much,
the second one, the most philosophical one and immediate after-
math of 9/11, did then, and the third less again. The Dark Knight
will only start in about two weeks in Switzerland and judging
from the trailer I do not like the actors nor what I see and will
likely just leave the movie for others to see. I liked the second
batman movie, the one with catwoman (Michelle Pfeiffer).
(By the way, I also do not like it that "Putin" has been cast as
the new James Bond, is just a whole different theme, and fairly
one should then maybe change the movie titles... ;)
But that is, of course, just my personal perception, although
with 4 planets in the 12th, I often reflect general collective
feelings to a degree, at least of some people.
Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
ever done that (not that I searched very deep). In that sense,
maybe you might be interested in something I wrote about the
Age of Aquarius in autumn 2001:
1) Download http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
2) Unzip odyssey.zip and then open the file discoveries.pdf
3) See section 3.14 The Age of Aquarius on page 16-18.
Besides fascism, I also associate communism and more with the
Age of Aquarius. Not that I would absolutely claim that this
is all correct and free of bias - but maybe it would also be
something for "Uranus in Scorpio", or maybe not... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
[note crosspost]
Petrus wrote:
: > Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
: > Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
:
: Fascism is a manifestation of the two planets (Uranus and Saturn) both
: combining to produce a particular form of political government. In the case
: of fascism, it is the Saturnine half of the two which is more immediately
: visible, with Uranus manifesting as technology used to support it, and in
: the case of Communism, Uranus is the more visible of the two, with Saturnine
: totalitarianism underlying it.
:
: A political system which integrates these two in a positive sense would need
: to be very different. I believe here that the writing/perspective of
: Terrence McKenna is relevant, and this is also what such individuals as the
: authors of the play "Hair" were referring to.
:
: It would be a society which both integrated technology, (Uranus) but which
: was also very deeply based on indigenous/shamanic principles. (positive
: Saturn) Use of entheogens (Uranus) would be not only completely mainstream,
: but would also be one of the foundational pillars of the system. These
: substances would be used not only for contact with extraterrestrials
: (Uranus) but also for developmental experiences as well. There would be a
: very specific set of guidelines and customs (Saturn) regarding their use, in
: order to prevent abuse.
:
: Decentralisation would be another fundamental principle. Food would be
: grown and produced literally on an individual basis, or by parents for their
: children in the case of families. Individual self-responsibility (Saturn)
: would be recognised and would be regarded very highly. Water would become
: the fuel source in the same way that oil (Neptune) had been in Pisces, and
: various outgrowths from hydrogen based technology would be used to
: effectively repair the planet's environment and return it to a more original
: state. (Saturn)
:
: I'm not talking about perfection here. Even at its' most positive
: manifestation, Aquarius, like any other sign, is not perfect. Of all the
: signs, it is also by far the most strongly rejected. I have often thought
: that it would be better, far better, for the majority of my fellow man if we
: were able to simply have another 2,000 years of Pisces, and bypass Aquarius
: altogether. Most of humanity will not learn Aquarius' lessons willingly;
: Uranus is instinctively, very greatly feared...and truthfully, rightly so.
:
: The single main reason why we need to adhere to the positive integration of
: Saturn/Uranus in sociopolitical terms, however, is because if we don't, the
: simple alternative is our extinction as a species. There's only two places
: you can go from Saturn in particular. Past him, or to death; and you don't
: go past him until he is entirely satisfied that you've earned it; that
: usually means that you very nearly end up dying anyway.
:
: > 1) Download http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
: > 2) Unzip odyssey.zip and then open the file discoveries.pdf
: > 3) See section 3.14 The Age of Aquarius on page 16-18.
:
: I did so. Very interesting; particularly your perspective on the Aqu/Leo
: relationship and how that manifested in Hitler's Aryan ideas.
Thanks a lot for the reply. In my feeling and thinking, your descriptions
give a quite accurate overall picture. I would like to throw in a few
thoughts and methods that I developed over the years and use them to look
a bit more into details at certain spots, but without trying or even
claiming to be complete or accurate. Just as an opportunity to eventually
apply these tools for a comprehensive view, like you presented above.
In a way, these tools are my "musician's repertoire":
* Uranus has just moved into Pisces after its 7-year sojourn in Aquarius,
* and this suggests an emphasis on the creative imagination and on the
* invisible dimensions of life. The last time Uranus went into Pisces,
* the jazz era was born and some of the greatest literature in the world
* was published in just seven short years.
-- Liz Greene in 2003 [1]
Also my public contributions, because they are mostly fragments in
usenet and even more fragments because I almost always removed my
own posts and only other people's replies and quotations remained,
my public contributions are a bit kafkaesque. Kafka is certainly
one of the writers that Liz Greene is alluding to, if not the best
single example, maybe. Or maybe not.
In that sense, this present text will be an exception, rather a
Jazz Album than a Jazz Concert, a more constructed than improvised
public contribution, but still written within a relatively short
amount of time and not crosschecked in all details. Also, I added
some quotes, something that I usually also do not do much.
But let me start...
Currently Chiron is at 18*16' Aquarius, conjunct the true northern
lunar node at 18*35' Aquarius. Chiron is retrograde and moving at
about the same speed as the nodes, so this is quite a long lasting
phenomenon with a close conjunction between about May and October
2008 [2], which by the way gives this maybe also a "venusy" touch.
* These mysterious points are often associated with "fate" because they
* represent the intersection points of the Sun’s and Moon’s orbits:
* a combination of "destiny" (the Sun) and "embodiment" (the Moon).
-- Liz Greene about the lunar nodes [1]
* H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
* the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
* People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
* the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
* more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
* more happy (e).
*
* H32bc are direct consequences of H32a. The moon moves
* below the solar path at the southern node and above it
* at the northern node, corresponding to entry into and
* exit from the unconscious (H32de).
-- me in [3]
* The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
* be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
* between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
* in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
*
* Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
* come back as a cow in my next life?
* Man: No, one does not come back as something that
* one has been before.
*
* There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
* eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
* fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
* dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
* then again feed young cows. That is why what can
* grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
* its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
* and house of the northern node.
-- me in [4]
So much about the nodes.
What about Chiron?
The orbit of Chiron is between the orbits of Saturn and the one of Uranus,
roughly touching both of them. Thus usually Chiron is also considered to
be a mediator of some sort between these two or also between individuals
and the collective, because the new planets Uranus and up are considered
often to be responsible for collective things, arguing also that this is
related to them not being visible to the naked eye.
From a slightly different perspective, one could also say that Chiron is
a mediator between modernity and the past, between Age of Aquarius and
Age of Pisces. Let me explore this path a bit more.
Traditionally, Saturn ruled both Capricorn and Aquarius. Only after the
discovery of Uranus in 1781, has Aquarius gotten a new ruler, Uranus,
sometimes (or maybe more often) as co-ruler with Saturn. But implicitly
more things changed: Traditionally, there is not really a full identity
between ruling planet and sign and house. Sun and Leo and 5th house are
traditionally not identical, whereas many modern astrologers more or
less obviously identifying them as a trinity.
It is interesting to view the new planets as children of the Age of
Aquarius, as different facets of Aquarius and of his sometimes quite
exaggerated drive to change/progress things, which has effectively
resulted in more aquarian planets than ever before...
But maybe back to Chiron as a first example:
* No sooner had [Thetis] entered the cave and fallen asleep than Peleus seized
* hold of her. The struggle was silent and fierce. Thetis turned successively
* into fire, water, a lion, and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned what to
* expect, and clung to her resolutely, even when she became an enormous slippery
* cuttle-fish and squirted ink at him [...]. Though burned, drenched, mauled,
* stung, and covered with sticky sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and,
* in the end, she yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
-- Robert Graves in [5]
Interesting, by the way, also that this paragraph comes just before the
ones in which Eris tosses her golden apple...
Peleus is, according to Robert Graves, sometimes also considered a centaur,
half man, half horse. And it was Cheiron who counseled Peleus how to get
together with Thetis (Cheiron seems to be prominent in many charts of love
encounters, see e.g. a seminar by Liz Greene in 2006 or so).
There is a horse in the sky, Pegasus, in the vicinity of Aquarius. Thus
it becomes maybe also somewhat understandable why Neptune is also in
some ways an aspect of Aquarius. It was Poseideon (Neptune) who first
installed horse races in mythology. The fashion/vogue aspect of Aquarius,
that comes together with his strive for progress, fits with that.
Interlude about natural resources: Uranus is the steam engine, in which
you burn (Element Fire) wood or coal (Earth) to generate motion. The
central element is Water (Aquarius, Water Bearer) and it evaporates,
becomes Air. In that sense, Aquarius is using, controlling the elements
to achieve his goals. Wood and coal is destroyed. Wood could grow back
from the ashes, but coal is old wood, so burning it is something that
can only be done for a limited amount of time.
Neptune is oil, for example. More energy and also base material for the
chemical industry. There is certainly also a piscean side to Neptune,
no doubt about that, but it should be noted that during most of the
Age of Pisces, nobody cared much about that dark, stinking fluid that
comes out of the ground in some places (with minor exceptions, like
the use of natural asphalt). And nobody dug it up. Burning oil or gas,
is also a one way street of limited supply, like with coal above.
Pluto is nuclear reactions. Supply for nuclear fission (Uranium etc.)
is also quite limited - like oil and gas it will not last for a whole
2000 years of an Age of Aquarius. Nuclear fusion, when it gets possible
will likely be possible for a longer time (and be much cleaner than
fission), unless of course, demands increases too much again.
Interesting that generation of electricity from all these sources
usually involves the principle of the steam engine: Heat is generated
and used to evaporate water which then operates a turbine and
induces an electrical current - so very much Uranus stuff again.
There is another long lasting reservoir, namely the heat stored in
the core of the earth. I think it was at the beginning of last year
or so that a company in Basel (Switzerland) started pumping water
into the ground and trying to use the steam that comes up in order
to generate power (experimentally). Now Basel is somewhat of an
earth quake region and hosts lots of chemical industry, so Neptune
territory. The evaporating water apparently induced a minor
earthquake, no damage to anything, but still more than usual, so
the company had to stop. But maybe in some more remote place, it
would be a useful possibility to generate energy that way.
But the whole thing seems more like Neptune in Aquarius to me than
Chiron in Aquarius. Like in the piece of mythology above, Chiron does
though control nature, keeps it within some boundaries, but he does
not waste things without any limits.
The new planets are to me a bit like a guy who has a table with four
feet that of different lengths so that the table is rocking. Then
he cuts off (or adds) a piece from one leg, or adds another leg. But
he does too much or too little of it and so the table is not stable.
Thus he tries again and again. Uranus was supposed to bring progress,
but then Neptune was needed, to maybe balance consciousness and the
(collective) unconscious. Then Neptune went maybe too far and Pluto
brought maybe some more depth and doing only what is necessary and
when that did not do, Cheiron was needed, etc.
Pluto is the name of the Greek god of the underworld, who had many
names, in Roman one of them was also Februs, the god that gave his
name to the month February. Unlike Janus/January/Capricorn, who has
two faces that look away from each other, Februs is quite a bit more
limited in a way, forcing one single view. Sometimes that is good,
but sometimes this just means to make things unconscious like in
mythology where Uranus banned what he did not want to see to the
underworld, only to have them come back during revolutions.
The idea of a collective unconscious, of a clear line between what
is conscious and what is not, is a child of the period after the
discovery of Neptune and before the one Pluto, it is aquarian,
I would say.
Pluto was at its discovery first though to be as big as the Earth.
But gradually its size was revealed to be smaller, and after many
more objects of similar or even somewhat bigger size (Eris) were
discovered, it became no longer tenable from a scientific view to
consider Pluto a planet. That way (Chiron was already in Aquarius)
Aquarius started to heal himself somewhat. Science with its by
definition uniform and only true view of the world (very aquarian)
dictated (controlled) the emotional forces of many scientists and
many laymen and degraded Pluto to no longer being a planet.
Like Thetis in the myth above, people have and are resisting the
new realities that are enforced by Chiron. But to no avail, in
my feeling and perception. In the end, they will yield and prefer
it that way. Certainly their children base their views on the
realities in the sky the know, not so much on the feelings of past
generations.
That is why Aquarius is not liked. He manages to obtain majorities
with the goal to improve the situation for the average person, but
the ones who note his actions most are usually the ones who are
the victims of his changes, who are faced with a large instrumented
organization that forces them to do things they do not like.
It is only in the aftermath that one notes the good sides, like
that many people in the world live like only kings lived about
1000 years ago: Almost constant temperature inside apartments,
no matter how hot or cold it is outside; turn a knob and you
get enough heat to cook; turn another know and you get drinking
water; and so on... Pleasant in the end, I guess, but I guess
some people suffered on the way there...
But, as in any piece of mythology, one cannot just focus onto just
one opposite. The oppressive state and the revolutionary individual
are both part of the theme (or of other themes, like e.g. Aries).
* The Greek word *mythos* contains two nuances of meaning. In one sense,
* *mythos* is a story. In another, more profound sense, it implies a
* scheme or plan. It is this latter shading of the word which is most
* relevant to both psychology and astrology, because the universality
* of basic mythic motives reveals a groundplan or purposeful pattern of
* development inherent in the human psyche as well as in the human body.
-- Liz Greene in [6]
Since opposites are part of the myth, it is not so easy to distinguish
between opposite signs, either. In 2002, I proposed [7] to describe e.g.
the inner mind of a Pisces as similar (at least in some respects) to
the outer activities of a Virgo. Like this: Virgo tackles disorder in
the outer world actively, starts to analyze and sort them. That way,
a Virgo's head fills up quickly with a lot of details, so in effect the
disorder in the real world diminishes, but at the same time there is
more disorder in the head, in the inner world. Conversely, Pisces are
much more reluctant to do something in the outside world, just letting
things grow and be as they (the things) wish. That way maybe things
get more disordered outside, but maybe only at first, but at least
inside there is lots of clarity and an ability to react very quickly
to suddenly appearing fundamental tasks, just because the essentials
are always present, but nothing else.
Of course, that is an oversimplified description, but the theme that
inside and outside are reversed in many aspects for opposite signs is
likely a sound proposition. And a useful one. Or maybe not? :)
Let me shed some light onto a few more of my tools...
Elementary Astrology: In 2002 I proposed a simpler model of the signs
of the zodiac, an idea which I had incidentally when the sun was in
Aquarius in 2001.
* In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
* of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
* different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
* just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
* images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
* simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
* twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
* pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
* zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
* fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
* elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
* after the other and explain things as I go along.
-- Me in [8]
An example says probably more: The fire signs are viewed in the model
as a burning fire. First there is lots of wood (Earth), then the fire
burns more strongly (Fire) and finally all goes up into smoke (Air).
These phases are viewed in the model as Aries - Leo - Sagittarius.
The element Earth is transformed by the element Fire to the element
Air. In Aristotle's cycle of the elements, Earth (dry+cold) gets hot,
becomes Fire (dry+hot) and then gets wet, becomes Air (wet+hot).
Psychologically, there is a wound to the physical body (Earth) that
is growing. That is the wound of the Grail's King (Leo) and the even
deadly wound of Cheiron (Sagittarius, constellation of the archer is
Cheiron or at least a centaur - side remark: that was not mentioned
above when talking about Cheiron, unfortunately language is linear
and not well suited to present a complex web of associations, and
remember, this is just a exposition of some tools, of some ways of
thinking about astrology and the world, not complete or even balanced
system, not even an attempt into that direction - Lilith is in Sag.).
Cheiron is immortal, which corresponds to the immortality of Air,
of knowledge that can be written down and communicated to future
generations, in contrast to the mortal body (Earth).
* But the lion is a stage in a process, as Jung suggests; and it is
* this process or pattern, which brings us into the sphere of the
* fate of Leo. It would seem, from what I have seen in the life
* histories of Leos with whom I have worked, that there is an
* alchemical work to be performed. The lion is not permitted to
* remain in its bestial form, but must give way to something other.
-- Liz Greene in [9]
The animal side (Earth) diminishes, while conscious awareness grows.
There are many more examples how the simple model fits with many
things that astrologers write about the signs, from very basic and
maybe superficial things to the deeper psychological motivations.
See also the introduction [8] from which I quoted above for a few
more basic examples. And see [4] for some abstract approaches to
Aries, Pisces-Aries and Air, based on the same model.
Does maybe not fit in here fully, but besides looking at traditional
meanings of houses and the corresponding signs, it seems to me that
looking at the symbolism of the house *numbers* and the meaning of
the words used for astrological houses gives an interesting, more
fundamental view at houses, see also [4]. See also Heracles' tasks,
like the one where he cleans a stable, task 5, by - but for that I
need another model, just a second.
That model is also part of [4], all emerged in posts to aat in 2004.
1 - Fire - Sun - Conjunction
2 - Air - Moon - Opposition
3 - Water - Venus - Trine
4 - Earth - Mars - Square
5 - 5th Element - Mercury - Quintile
6 - ... (see also cross-cultural links to the Chinese I Ching)
In the 5th task, it is an idea (1-Fire) that allows to clean the
stables in a very short time. Opening two gates at opposite sides
of the stable (2-opposition-Air), then combining two rivers into
one (2+1=3, Water), allows to wash out the dung (4-Earth) quickly
and easily without getting one's hands dirty. Combined you get
the 5th element, transformation of the elements.
Now, this simple analytical view also reveals a similarity with
the steam engine mentioned above, showing again, that telling
apart opposing signs (here Aquarius-Leo) is not easy in practice,
at least not for me... :)
Back to the elementary model and applying it to Capricorn and to
Aquarius:
- Earth signs: Tree - needs sun/leaves/flowers/fruit (Fire) and
its roots (Water) to live. For Taurus the sunny, but short lived
beauty of flowers and leaves etc. is in the focus, while for
Capricorn, the focus is on the roots, on the structures that
keep the tree standing for many years. Virgo is in between, like
each middle sign of its element always somewhat in a conflict,
having difficulties to balance the elements, not sure whether
to create beauty or order.
- Air signs: Cloud - first lots of lightning in a thunder storm
(Fire, Gemini), then starts to rain and in the end mostly just
rain and no more lightning any more (Water, Aquarius).
So interestingly, both Capricorn and Aquarius are at the end of
a transition to Water, to feelings, harmony (Venus, trine, using
the other model above).
Bertold Brecht (Aquarius) wrote the following in [10]:
* "Was tun Sie", wurde Herr K. gefragt, "wenn Sie einen Menschen lieben?"
* "Ich mache einen Entwurf von ihm", sagte Herr K., "und sorge dass er
* ihm aehlich wird." "Wer? Der Entwurf?" "Nein", sagte Herr K. "Der
* Mensch."
A but difficult to translate directly because it uses an ambiguity
in the German language that cannot be translated:
* "What do you do", Mr. K. was asked, "if you love a person?"
* I make a blueprint of him", said Mr. K., "and make sure that he/it
* gets more similar to him/it." "Who/what? the blueprint?" "No" said
* Mr. K., "the person"
Control, driven by a feeling of universal love. If I am not mistaken
the "Golden Age" was said to be ruled by Saturn.
Willian Lilly linked Aquarius to "in Houses, the roofs", while he
linked Capricorn to "in houses low, dark places, neer the ground
or threshold", so closer to Earth, more directly shamanic, I guess.
Aquarius is a fixed sign. The 20th century was not really like that.
It could really be that the plutonian side of Aquarius showed more
during that period and that things are already easing into a more
steady flow now. Difficult to say for me whether the more shamanic
traits of signs ruled by Saturn will show their influence already
soon or maybe will have to wait another 2000 years to really unfold.
I guess in 2000 years technology will have progressed so far that
individual local communities will be able to operate self-contained
again, a factory to produce goods might be quite small by then
(I am thinking maybe assembling things atom by atom or so). But
predicting technology in 2000 years is extremely difficult.
Anyway, in one way I presume the Age of Aquarius will likely be a
bit boring too, like life in the USA, which I view in many respects
as an egg that hatches the Age of Aquarius - Cancer shell to protect
it (sun), with a subliminal drive to spread its seed across the world
(moon in Aquarius). Again, these are just fragments, no claims of
balance or completeness or whatever - but good tools, I hope :)
The Hegira had the n. node in early Leo, which spread to Spain in a
time when there was islamic influence to it. Also Great Britain has
this axis emphasized, just look at a british passport with a lion
and a unicorn (Leo-Aquarius). These countries sailed further west,
and so the same axis is also strong in Britain's former colonies,
with differing emphasis each, I presume.
I remember a report from Sydney, Australia, where two immigrants said
that people were more often outside there, for barbecues etc., closer
to nature than most people in Europe or the USA.
Allow me to get back to a few of my things (Switzerland, my home country
also has the n. node in Leo, if you take the old 1291 founding date).
It was a love story that lead me to astrology and into the public.
In that sense, one of the reasons that my public contributions have
remained fragmentary are also related to this. Circling the castle.
I am depositing these "side effects" here and now, with this post,
besides what already survived in fragments, as sort of a lead in for
more or less contemporary astrologers or for whoever might be
interested in them...
Maybe I should also point out this usenet post [11] in which I propose
to use usenet post (or to other places) as data for proving astrology:
* Fortunately, groups.google.com has collected a
* large part of all usenet posts, as a harvest
* that is now ready to be analyzed and sorted,
* in my opinion, best using astrology:
*
* Detach from the idea of real people and redefine
* people as screen names. Then you get a "birth",
* namely the first post under that screen name, and
* you get events in that "life", that you can then
* analyze in terms of transits to the birth time,
* of the current time, of birth time and transits
* of the group the posts take place, etc.
*
* (Note that this is maybe not as different as in
* real life: A birth chart gives away a lot of
* information about a real person, but looking at
* charts of parents, ancestors, home town, etc. and
* looking at names etc. almost always broadens the
* frame in interesting ways).
*
* So you get to the second data for billions of
* events that happened to millions of people "in the
* matrix", and most of it is not even real content -
* which would be very difficult to analyze - but
* instead is often fights without much real content,
* or misunderstanding because people do not see
* each other in use
Definitely not a piece of cake to do in reality, but the technology
would already be there in many respects (people working at Google,
etc.). In my feeling and thinking, you can't convince unless you
have an overwhelming amount of data and more than expected fits.
Anyway, another tool that might be put to use sometime.
Of course, the notion of a tool and posting as Hermes hints at Pluto
in Virgo in my chart, and building up on things proposed by people
with Pluto in Leo. But Virgo is quite an obstinate sign in a way,
like - in similar ways - all mutable signs. They have to be more
obstinate than the fixed signs in order to let what the fixed signs
pursued and focussed on run out gently and prepare the ground for
new things to emerge.
On the other hand, I notice a decline in my abilities to do really
fundamental analysis since it became clear that Pluto is no longer
a planet. I still have Uranus conjunct Pluto (* 7 Aug 1966 at 04:12
in the morning in Zurich, Switzerland), but it is clearly weaker in
effect in my feeling than it was before. Also a reason to leave
things as is, I guess.
A similar weakening has also become apparent globally by the escape
of Natascha Kampusch just after Pluto had been demoted and I
guess it will continue to some degree. As recent reclassifications
have shown, being first in science is also valued similarly as in
astrology (where the first thing, the first moment defines the rest),
namely Pluto has now given his name to a large group of objects, so
some of Pluto's power will be preserved, but in my feeling the
absoluteness is gone - depth has remained to quite some degree, but
you cannot take away "a little absoluteness" and still remain
absolute, that is by definition of "absolute" not possible.
* Natascha Kampusch (born 17 February 1988 in Vienna) is an Austrian who
* was abducted at the age of 10 on 2 March 1998, and remained in custody
* of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, for more than eight years, until
* she escaped on 23 August 2006.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch
In the spring of 2004 I had a different kind of idea. I posted it
to alt.astrology.tropical (post already removed, nobody replied).
In it I present an idea that links the existence of 4+1 elements
to the immediate experience of space and time. A quite timeless
thing, not bound to technology, ages, astrology etc. and also in
harmony with contemporary science and also with e.g. the I Ching.
That alone is (in my personal opinion) worth more than all the rest
that I wrote about here. As a physicist, I am interested in nature,
not so much in immediate culture.
That's it, once and for all. See this post [12] for a link to my web
site and my opinion about whether to provide any future support.
Note that (without consciously planning to) that post turned out to
be exactly 42 lines long (without the headers)... ;)
)o+
PS: Wrote this in one flow 16 August 2008, just done now, and the moon
is currently at 19*42' Aquarius, time for a quick review and then out
with it (nearer Neptune, I guess), once and for all, I guess. :)
[1] Liz Greene. Happy Birthday, Astrodienst - A look at the company's
birth chart. 2003. http://www.astro.com/people/chart_e.htm
[2] Ephemeris for 2008 at Astrodienst.
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/2000/ae_2008.pdf
[3] Me. Moon Nodes as Gates. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
http://web.archive.org/web/20050221190937/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s228.html
[4] Me. "Book of Changes". Series of usenet posts. 2004. Archived at
http://web.archive.org/web/20050205022800/exactphilosophy.net/book/
[5] Robert Graves. The Greek Myths. 1960. 81k.
[6] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p166.
[7] Me. Axes and Opposites. Usenet post. 2002. Archived at
http://web.archive.org/web/20050216230010/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s095.html
[8] Me. Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac. Usenet post. 2002.
Archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20050215194330/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
[9] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p205+206.
[10] Bertold Brecht. Geschichten vom Herrn Keuner. 1930s.
[11] Me. Usenet and Experiment. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
http://web.archive.org/web/20050222091126/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s246.html
[12] Me. Usenet post with a link to my web site exactphilosophy.net. 2008.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/1382338c74bc0867?dmode=source
[13] Me. Unconscious Communication and Astrology (see also original documents at
my web site). 2008 (2002)). Quoted by Apollia and I.R.Heller (thx!):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/2659729d71e120c7
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/ce4ee614eeaea3bc
--
http:/www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
(here to stay as is, except listing publications by others under
evolutions and gently keeping things technologically up to date)
PPS: Sorry for the ultra-long post, but I felt it important to
keep this in one peace in the interest of future readers.
PPPS: The Dark Knight (Pluto/me/...) has been released, I guess :)
Thanks! :)
To be fair I should probably mention that transiting Sedna is
now on my natal true north lunar node, which might explain why
I feel from personal experience (before and after discovery of
Sedna) that discoveries of new objects "change the game".
Sedna has no fingers, cannot influence the material world in
any direct way, accordingly this is also a good moment to let
all my public things be, which are almost all quite obviously
way too early for "prime time"...*
Sorry if I do not reply in detail to the points below; let me
maybe just note that Switzerland had been known for centuries
after its founding to provide the most feared mercenaries to
various principalities all over Europe; more moderate approaches
like armed neutrality, diplomacy, the red cross, came only
several centuries later. Switzerland originally (August 1291)
also has the n.node in Leo, like the USA (and Spain, Hegira).
)o+
--
* Reply by sabian.org/oracle.htm (the one with the Mucha) to
what would be if I simply left my web site as it is for good:
Scorpio 16 A girl's face turning into a smile. Keyword: Acquiescence
Reply to converse question (upload very moderated changes of
this summer to my site, archiving current site?):
Aquarius 14 A train entering a tunnel. Keyword: Courtesy
Easy choice for me, or maybe in "matrix" language, helped me
to understand the decision that I had already made...
Rozmarne leto...
In article <fftia4598j8cicqsk5htuflk1a0m8mfv3d@4ax.com>,
"whatever@twixtntween.com" <Jyeshta@giganews.com> wrote:
> Inclusion of entire post for posterity, although my response is
> limited, below:
>
>
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:22:33 CST, Hermes
> <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> >[note crosspost]
> >
> >Petrus wrote:
> >
> >: > Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
> >: > Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
> >:
> >: Fascism is a manifestation of the two planets (Uranus and Saturn) both
> >: combining to produce a particular form of political government. In the case
> >: of fascism, it is the Saturnine half of the two which is more immediately
> >: visible, with Uranus manifesting as technology used to support it, and in
> >: the case of Communism, Uranus is the more visible of the two, with Saturnine
> >: totalitarianism underlying it.
> >:
> >: A political system which integrates these two in a positive sense would need
> >: to be very different. I believe here that the writing/perspective of
> >: Terrence McKenna is relevant, and this is also what such individuals as the
> >: authors of the play "Hair" were referring to.
> >:
> >: It would be a society which both integrated technology, (Uranus) but which
> >: was also very deeply based on indigenous/shamanic principles. (positive
> >: Saturn) Use of entheogens (Uranus) would be not only completely mainstream,
> >: but would also be one of the foundational pillars of the system. These
> >: substances would be used not only for contact with extraterrestrials
> >: (Uranus) but also for developmental experiences as well. There would be a
> >: very specific set of guidelines and customs (Saturn) regarding their use, in
> >: order to prevent abuse.
> >:
> >: Decentralisation would be another fundamental principle. Food would be
> >: grown and produced literally on an individual basis, or by parents for their
> >: children in the case of families. Individual self-responsibility (Saturn)
> >: would be recognised and would be regarded very highly. Water would become
> >: the fuel source in the same way that oil (Neptune) had been in Pisces, and
> >: various outgrowths from hydrogen based technology would be used to
> >: effectively repair the planet's environment and return it to a more original
> >: state. (Saturn)
> >:
> >: I'm not talking about perfection here. Even at its' most positive
> >: manifestation, Aquarius, like any other sign, is not perfect. Of all the
> >: signs, it is also by far the most strongly rejected. I have often thought
> >: that it would be better, far better, for the majority of my fellow man if we
> >: were able to simply have another 2,000 years of Pisces, and bypass Aquarius
> >: altogether. Most of humanity will not learn Aquarius' lessons willingly;
> >: Uranus is instinctively, very greatly feared...and truthfully, rightly so.
> >:
> >: The single main reason why we need to adhere to the positive integration of
> >: Saturn/Uranus in sociopolitical terms, however, is because if we don't, the
> >: simple alternative is our extinction as a species. There's only two places
> >: you can go from Saturn in particular. Past him, or to death; and you don't
> >: go past him until he is entirely satisfied that you've earned it; that
> >: usually means that you very nearly end up dying anyway.
> >:
> >: > 1) Download http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
> >: > 2) Unzip odyssey.zip and then open the file discoveries.pdf
> >: > 3) See section 3.14 The Age of Aquarius on page 16-18.
> >:
> >: I did so. Very interesting; particularly your perspective on the Aqu/Leo
> >: relationship and how that manifested in Hitler's Aryan ideas.
> >
> >Thanks a lot for the reply. In my feeling and thinking, your descriptions
> >give a quite accurate overall picture. I would like to throw in a few
> >thoughts and methods that I developed over the years and use them to look
> >a bit more into details at certain spots, but without trying or even
> >claiming to be complete or accurate. Just as an opportunity to eventually
> >apply these tools for a comprehensive view, like you presented above.
> >
> >In a way, these tools are my "musician's repertoire":
> >
> >* Uranus has just moved into Pisces after its 7-year sojourn in Aquarius,
> >* and this suggests an emphasis on the creative imagination and on the
> >* invisible dimensions of life. The last time Uranus went into Pisces,
> >* the jazz era was born and some of the greatest literature in the world
> >* was published in just seven short years.
> >
> >-- Liz Greene in 2003 [1]
> >
> >Also my public contributions, because they are mostly fragments in
> >usenet and even more fragments because I almost always removed my
> >own posts and only other people's replies and quotations remained,
> >my public contributions are a bit kafkaesque. Kafka is certainly
> >one of the writers that Liz Greene is alluding to, if not the best
> >single example, maybe. Or maybe not.
> >
> >In that sense, this present text will be an exception, rather a
> >Jazz Album than a Jazz Concert, a more constructed than improvised
> >public contribution, but still written within a relatively short
> >amount of time and not crosschecked in all details. Also, I added
> >some quotes, something that I usually also do not do much.
> >
> >But let me start...
> >
> >Currently Chiron is at 18*16' Aquarius, conjunct the true northern
> >lunar node at 18*35' Aquarius. Chiron is retrograde and moving at
> >about the same speed as the nodes, so this is quite a long lasting
> >phenomenon with a close conjunction between about May and October
> >2008 [2], which by the way gives this maybe also a "venusy" touch.
> >
> >* These mysterious points are often associated with "fate" because they
> >* represent the intersection points of the Sun’s and Moon’s orbits:
> >* a combination of "destiny" (the Sun) and "embodiment" (the Moon).
> >
> >-- Liz Greene about the lunar nodes [1]
> >
> >* H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
> >* the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
> >* People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
> >* the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
> >* more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
> >* more happy (e).
> >*
> >* H32bc are direct consequences of H32a. The moon moves
> >* below the solar path at the southern node and above it
> >* at the northern node, corresponding to entry into and
> >* exit from the unconscious (H32de).
> >
> >-- me in [3]
> >
> >* The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
> >* be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
> >* between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
> >* in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
> >*
> >* Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
> >* come back as a cow in my next life?
> >* Man: No, one does not come back as something that
> >* one has been before.
> >*
> >* There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
> >* eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
> >* fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
> >* dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
> >* then again feed young cows. That is why what can
> >* grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
> >* its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
> >* and house of the northern node.
> >
> >-- me in [4]
> >
> >So much about the nodes.
> >
> >What about Chiron?
> >
> >The orbit of Chiron is between the orbits of Saturn and the one of Uranus,
> >roughly touching both of them. Thus usually Chiron is also considered to
> >be a mediator of some sort between these two or also between individuals
> >and the collective, because the new planets Uranus and up are considered
> >often to be responsible for collective things, arguing also that this is
> >related to them not being visible to the naked eye.
> >
> >From a slightly different perspective, one could also say that Chiron is
> >a mediator between modernity and the past, between Age of Aquarius and
> >Age of Pisces. Let me explore this path a bit more.
> >
> >Traditionally, Saturn ruled both Capricorn and Aquarius. Only after the
> >discovery of Uranus in 1781, has Aquarius gotten a new ruler, Uranus,
> >sometimes (or maybe more often) as co-ruler with Saturn. But implicitly
> >more things changed: Traditionally, there is not really a full identity
> >between ruling planet and sign and house. Sun and Leo and 5th house are
> >traditionally not identical, whereas many modern astrologers more or
> >less obviously identifying them as a trinity.
> >
> >It is interesting to view the new planets as children of the Age of
> >Aquarius, as different facets of Aquarius and of his sometimes quite
> >exaggerated drive to change/progress things, which has effectively
> >resulted in more aquarian planets than ever before...
> >
> >But maybe back to Chiron as a first example:
> >
> >* No sooner had [Thetis] entered the cave and fallen asleep than Peleus seized
> >* hold of her. The struggle was silent and fierce. Thetis turned successively
> >* into fire, water, a lion, and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned what to
> >* expect, and clung to her resolutely, even when she became an enormous slippery
> >* cuttle-fish and squirted ink at him [...]. Though burned, drenched, mauled,
> >* stung, and covered with sticky sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and,
> >* in the end, she yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
> >
> >-- Robert Graves in [5]
> >
> >Interesting, by the way, also that this paragraph comes just before the
> >ones in which Eris tosses her golden apple...
> >
> >Peleus is, according to Robert Graves, sometimes also considered a centaur,
> >half man, half horse. And it was Cheiron who counseled Peleus how to get
> >together with Thetis (Cheiron seems to be prominent in many charts of love
> >encounters, see e.g. a seminar by Liz Greene in 2006 or so).
> >
> >There is a horse in the sky, Pegasus, in the vicinity of Aquarius. Thus
> >it becomes maybe also somewhat understandable why Neptune is also in
> >some ways an aspect of Aquarius. It was Poseideon (Neptune) who first
> >installed horse races in mythology. The fashion/vogue aspect of Aquarius,
> >that comes together with his strive for progress, fits with that.
> >
> >Interlude about natural resources: Uranus is the steam engine, in which
> >you burn (Element Fire) wood or coal (Earth) to generate motion. The
> >central element is Water (Aquarius, Water Bearer) and it evaporates,
> >becomes Air. In that sense, Aquarius is using, controlling the elements
> >to achieve his goals. Wood and coal is destroyed. Wood could grow back
> >from the ashes, but coal is old wood, so burning it is something that
> >can only be done for a limited amount of time.
> >
> >Neptune is oil, for example. More energy and also base material for the
> >chemical industry. There is certainly also a piscean side to Neptune,
> >no doubt about that, but it should be noted that during most of the
> >Age of Pisces, nobody cared much about that dark, stinking fluid that
> >comes out of the ground in some places (with minor exceptions, like
> >the use of natural asphalt). And nobody dug it up. Burning oil or gas,
> >is also a one way street of limited supply, like with coal above.
> >
> >Pluto is nuclear reactions. Supply for nuclear fission (Uranium etc.)
> >is also quite limited - like oil and gas it will not last for a whole
> >2000 years of an Age of Aquarius. Nuclear fusion, when it gets possible
> >will likely be possible for a longer time (and be much cleaner than
> >fission), unless of course, demands increases too much again.
> >
> >Interesting that generation of electricity from all these sources
> >usually involves the principle of the steam engine: Heat is generated
> >and used to evaporate water which then operates a turbine and
> >induces an electrical current - so very much Uranus stuff again.
> >
> >There is another long lasting reservoir, namely the heat stored in
> >the core of the earth. I think it was at the beginning of last year
> >or so that a company in Basel (Switzerland) started pumping water
> >into the ground and trying to use the steam that comes up in order
> >to generate power (experimentally). Now Basel is somewhat of an
> >earth quake region and hosts lots of chemical industry, so Neptune
> >territory. The evaporating water apparently induced a minor
> >earthquake, no damage to anything, but still more than usual, so
> >the company had to stop. But maybe in some more remote place, it
> >would be a useful possibility to generate energy that way.
> >
> >But the whole thing seems more like Neptune in Aquarius to me than
> >Chiron in Aquarius. Like in the piece of mythology above, Chiron does
> >though control nature, keeps it within some boundaries, but he does
> >not waste things without any limits.
> >
> >The new planets are to me a bit like a guy who has a table with four
> >feet that of different lengths so that the table is rocking. Then
> >he cuts off (or adds) a piece from one leg, or adds another leg. But
> >he does too much or too little of it and so the table is not stable.
> >Thus he tries again and again. Uranus was supposed to bring progress,
> >but then Neptune was needed, to maybe balance consciousness and the
> >(collective) unconscious. Then Neptune went maybe too far and Pluto
> >brought maybe some more depth and doing only what is necessary and
> >when that did not do, Cheiron was needed, etc.
> >
> >Pluto is the name of the Greek god of the underworld, who had many
> >names, in Roman one of them was also Februs, the god that gave his
> >name to the month February. Unlike Janus/January/Capricorn, who has
> >two faces that look away from each other, Februs is quite a bit more
> >limited in a way, forcing one single view. Sometimes that is good,
> >but sometimes this just means to make things unconscious like in
> >mythology where Uranus banned what he did not want to see to the
> >underworld, only to have them come back during revolutions.
> >
> >The idea of a collective unconscious, of a clear line between what
> >is conscious and what is not, is a child of the period after the
> >discovery of Neptune and before the one Pluto, it is aquarian,
> >I would say.
> >
> >Pluto was at its discovery first though to be as big as the Earth.
> >But gradually its size was revealed to be smaller, and after many
> >more objects of similar or even somewhat bigger size (Eris) were
> >discovered, it became no longer tenable from a scientific view to
> >consider Pluto a planet. That way (Chiron was already in Aquarius)
> >Aquarius started to heal himself somewhat. Science with its by
> >definition uniform and only true view of the world (very aquarian)
> >dictated (controlled) the emotional forces of many scientists and
> >many laymen and degraded Pluto to no longer being a planet.
> >
> >Like Thetis in the myth above, people have and are resisting the
> >new realities that are enforced by Chiron. But to no avail, in
> >my feeling and perception. In the end, they will yield and prefer
> >it that way. Certainly their children base their views on the
> >realities in the sky the know, not so much on the feelings of past
> >generations.
> >
> >That is why Aquarius is not liked. He manages to obtain majorities
> >with the goal to improve the situation for the average person, but
> >the ones who note his actions most are usually the ones who are
> >the victims of his changes, who are faced with a large instrumented
> >organization that forces them to do things they do not like.
> >
> >It is only in the aftermath that one notes the good sides, like
> >that many people in the world live like only kings lived about
> >1000 years ago: Almost constant temperature inside apartments,
> >no matter how hot or cold it is outside; turn a knob and you
> >get enough heat to cook; turn another know and you get drinking
> >water; and so on... Pleasant in the end, I guess, but I guess
> >some people suffered on the way there...
> >
> >But, as in any piece of mythology, one cannot just focus onto just
> >one opposite. The oppressive state and the revolutionary individual
> >are both part of the theme (or of other themes, like e.g. Aries).
> >
> >* The Greek word *mythos* contains two nuances of meaning. In one sense,
> >* *mythos* is a story. In another, more profound sense, it implies a
> >* scheme or plan. It is this latter shading of the word which is most
> >* relevant to both psychology and astrology, because the universality
> >* of basic mythic motives reveals a groundplan or purposeful pattern of
> >* development inherent in the human psyche as well as in the human body.
> >
> >-- Liz Greene in [6]
> >
> >Since opposites are part of the myth, it is not so easy to distinguish
> >between opposite signs, either. In 2002, I proposed [7] to describe e.g.
> >the inner mind of a Pisces as similar (at least in some respects) to
> >the outer activities of a Virgo. Like this: Virgo tackles disorder in
> >the outer world actively, starts to analyze and sort them. That way,
> >a Virgo's head fills up quickly with a lot of details, so in effect the
> >disorder in the real world diminishes, but at the same time there is
> >more disorder in the head, in the inner world. Conversely, Pisces are
> >much more reluctant to do something in the outside world, just letting
> >things grow and be as they (the things) wish. That way maybe things
> >get more disordered outside, but maybe only at first, but at least
> >inside there is lots of clarity and an ability to react very quickly
> >to suddenly appearing fundamental tasks, just because the essentials
> >are always present, but nothing else.
> >
> >Of course, that is an oversimplified description, but the theme that
> >inside and outside are reversed in many aspects for opposite signs is
> >likely a sound proposition. And a useful one. Or maybe not? :)
> >
> >Let me shed some light onto a few more of my tools...
> >
> >Elementary Astrology: In 2002 I proposed a simpler model of the signs
> >of the zodiac, an idea which I had incidentally when the sun was in
> >Aquarius in 2001.
> >
> >* In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
> >* of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
> >* different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
> >* just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
> >* images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
> >* simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
> >* twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
> >* pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
> >* zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
> >* fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
> >* elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
> >* after the other and explain things as I go along.
> >
> >-- Me in [8]
> >
> >An example says probably more: The fire signs are viewed in the model
> >as a burning fire. First there is lots of wood (Earth), then the fire
> >burns more strongly (Fire) and finally all goes up into smoke (Air).
> >These phases are viewed in the model as Aries - Leo - Sagittarius.
> >The element Earth is transformed by the element Fire to the element
> >Air. In Aristotle's cycle of the elements, Earth (dry+cold) gets hot,
> >becomes Fire (dry+hot) and then gets wet, becomes Air (wet+hot).
> >
> >Psychologically, there is a wound to the physical body (Earth) that
> >is growing. That is the wound of the Grail's King (Leo) and the even
> >deadly wound of Cheiron (Sagittarius, constellation of the archer is
> >Cheiron or at least a centaur - side remark: that was not mentioned
> >above when talking about Cheiron, unfortunately language is linear
> >and not well suited to present a complex web of associations, and
> >remember, this is just a exposition of some tools, of some ways of
> >thinking about astrology and the world, not complete or even balanced
> >system, not even an attempt into that direction - Lilith is in Sag.).
> >
> >Cheiron is immortal, which corresponds to the immortality of Air,
> >of knowledge that can be written down and communicated to future
> >generations, in contrast to the mortal body (Earth).
> >
> >* But the lion is a stage in a process, as Jung suggests; and it is
> >* this process or pattern, which brings us into the sphere of the
> >* fate of Leo. It would seem, from what I have seen in the life
> >* histories of Leos with whom I have worked, that there is an
> >* alchemical work to be performed. The lion is not permitted to
> >* remain in its bestial form, but must give way to something other.
> >
> >-- Liz Greene in [9]
> >
> >The animal side (Earth) diminishes, while conscious awareness grows.
> >There are many more examples how the simple model fits with many
> >things that astrologers write about the signs, from very basic and
> >maybe superficial things to the deeper psychological motivations.
> >
> >See also the introduction [8] from which I quoted above for a few
> >more basic examples. And see [4] for some abstract approaches to
> >Aries, Pisces-Aries and Air, based on the same model.
> >
> >Does maybe not fit in here fully, but besides looking at traditional
> >meanings of houses and the corresponding signs, it seems to me that
> >looking at the symbolism of the house *numbers* and the meaning of
> >the words used for astrological houses gives an interesting, more
> >fundamental view at houses, see also [4]. See also Heracles' tasks,
> >like the one where he cleans a stable, task 5, by - but for that I
> >need another model, just a second.
> >
> >That model is also part of [4], all emerged in posts to aat in 2004.
> >
> >1 - Fire - Sun - Conjunction
> >2 - Air - Moon - Opposition
> >3 - Water - Venus - Trine
> >4 - Earth - Mars - Square
> >5 - 5th Element - Mercury - Quintile
> >6 - ... (see also cross-cultural links to the Chinese I Ching)
> >
> >In the 5th task, it is an idea (1-Fire) that allows to clean the
> >stables in a very short time. Opening two gates at opposite sides
> >of the stable (2-opposition-Air), then combining two rivers into
> >one (2+1=3, Water), allows to wash out the dung (4-Earth) quickly
> >and easily without getting one's hands dirty. Combined you get
> >the 5th element, transformation of the elements.
> >
> >Now, this simple analytical view also reveals a similarity with
> >the steam engine mentioned above, showing again, that telling
> >apart opposing signs (here Aquarius-Leo) is not easy in practice,
> >at least not for me... :)
> >
> >Back to the elementary model and applying it to Capricorn and to
> >Aquarius:
> >
> >- Earth signs: Tree - needs sun/leaves/flowers/fruit (Fire) and
> > its roots (Water) to live. For Taurus the sunny, but short lived
> > beauty of flowers and leaves etc. is in the focus, while for
> > Capricorn, the focus is on the roots, on the structures that
> > keep the tree standing for many years. Virgo is in between, like
> > each middle sign of its element always somewhat in a conflict,
> > having difficulties to balance the elements, not sure whether
> > to create beauty or order.
> >
> >- Air signs: Cloud - first lots of lightning in a thunder storm
> > (Fire, Gemini), then starts to rain and in the end mostly just
> > rain and no more lightning any more (Water, Aquarius).
> >
> >So interestingly, both Capricorn and Aquarius are at the end of
> >a transition to Water, to feelings, harmony (Venus, trine, using
> >the other model above).
> >
> >Bertold Brecht (Aquarius) wrote the following in [10]:
> >
> >* "Was tun Sie", wurde Herr K. gefragt, "wenn Sie einen Menschen lieben?"
> >* "Ich mache einen Entwurf von ihm", sagte Herr K., "und sorge dass er
> >* ihm aehlich wird." "Wer? Der Entwurf?" "Nein", sagte Herr K. "Der
> >* Mensch."
> >
> >A but difficult to translate directly because it uses an ambiguity
> >in the German language that cannot be translated:
> >
> >* "What do you do", Mr. K. was asked, "if you love a person?"
> >* I make a blueprint of him", said Mr. K., "and make sure that he/it
> >* gets more similar to him/it." "Who/what? the blueprint?" "No" said
> >* Mr. K., "the person"
> >
> >Control, driven by a feeling of universal love. If I am not mistaken
> >the "Golden Age" was said to be ruled by Saturn.
> >
> >Willian Lilly linked Aquarius to "in Houses, the roofs", while he
> >linked Capricorn to "in houses low, dark places, neer the ground
> >or threshold", so closer to Earth, more directly shamanic, I guess.
> >
> >Aquarius is a fixed sign. The 20th century was not really like that.
> >It could really be that the plutonian side of Aquarius showed more
> >during that period and that things are already easing into a more
> >steady flow now. Difficult to say for me whether the more shamanic
> >traits of signs ruled by Saturn will show their influence already
> >soon or maybe will have to wait another 2000 years to really unfold.
> >I guess in 2000 years technology will have progressed so far that
> >individual local communities will be able to operate self-contained
> >again, a factory to produce goods might be quite small by then
> >(I am thinking maybe assembling things atom by atom or so). But
> >predicting technology in 2000 years is extremely difficult.
> >
> >Anyway, in one way I presume the Age of Aquarius will likely be a
> >bit boring too, like life in the USA,
>
> There is quite a bit in this entire thread with which I disagree
> but... life in the USA is boring? As opposed, perhaps, to life
> in Switzerland? Do people riot often in Switzerland? When was
> the last time Switzerland had "leaders" insane enough to start
> unnecessary and destabilizing wars?
>
> The USA has always been a country divided, even moreso after
> President Lincoln's achievement in "uniting" the states. Since
> then, the country is not only divided, it is diced.
>
> For one example: A date of incorporation for the City of Chicago.
> Chicago is known world-wide as the city of gangsters (and those
> who live in it know that nothing has changed very much).
>
> The date I'm using is May 12, 1875
> Noon, UT
> 87w39
> 41n51
>
> We see Saturn right on the MC in Aquarius, in a t-square with
> Moon in Leo in the 4th, and both square Sun, Pluto, Mercury in
> the 12th. That looks right to me. For decades in the 20th
> Century, city government was called "The Machine" (Saturn
> Aquarius), fighting or making deals with gangsters (12th house
> Sun Pluto Merc in Taurus) at odds with both the government and
> the people (Moon 4th house). The Sun Pluto Merc Taurus in 12th
> also accurately describes the city's huge cow slaughtering
> business (no one wants to actually *see* the cow being
> slaughtered when they're sitting down to eat a steak - 12th house
> industry, comparable to the ever-present crime syndicates, both
> within, and outside of, government).
>
> At the time of the 1968 Democratic Convention Riots, when out and
> out murder and mayhem graced the fine city, p Moon was nearly
> exact quincunx p Mercury - natal ruler of chart Ascendant. It
> was a disastrous combination of the people (Moon) against the
> city (Asc). p MC squared n MC. Except for those two aspects,
> the rest of the data suggests the incorporation date is about a
> year away from accuracy (and indeed there is an even earlier
> year, I think 1837, but I could find no date for that year).
>
> We could look at so many other riot charts - the recent L.A.
> riots of the '90s, the infamous Crown Heights (Brooklyn, NY)
> riots of the '90s, and so forth.
>
> I would not agree that life in the USA is boring. It's
> *dangerous*. Oh, and people barbeque here all the time, go
> camping, hike in forests and deserts, see national wonders of
> nature if they don't mind tourists from Switzerland (and other
> places).
>
> Oh yeah, we also start crazy wars a lot, and kill each other
> frequently.
>
> G.
>
> > which I view in many respects
> >as an egg that hatches the Age of Aquarius - Cancer shell to protect
> >it (sun), with a subliminal drive to spread its seed across the world
> >(moon in Aquarius). Again, these are just fragments, no claims of
> >balance or completeness or whatever - but good tools, I hope :)
> >
> >The Hegira had the n. node in early Leo, which spread to Spain in a
> >time when there was islamic influence to it. Also Great Britain has
> >this axis emphasized, just look at a british passport with a lion
> >and a unicorn (Leo-Aquarius). These countries sailed further west,
> >and so the same axis is also strong in Britain's former colonies,
> >with differing emphasis each, I presume.
> >
> >I remember a report from Sydney, Australia, where two immigrants said
> >that people were more often outside there, for barbecues etc., closer
> >to nature than most people in Europe or the USA.
> >
> >Allow me to get back to a few of my things (Switzerland, my home country
> >also has the n. node in Leo, if you take the old 1291 founding date).
> >
> >It was a love story that lead me to astrology and into the public.
> >In that sense, one of the reasons that my public contributions have
> >remained fragmentary are also related to this. Circling the castle.
> >
> >I am depositing these "side effects" here and now, with this post,
> >besides what already survived in fragments, as sort of a lead in for
> >more or less contemporary astrologers or for whoever might be
> >interested in them...
> >
> >Maybe I should also point out this usenet post [11] in which I propose
> >to use usenet post (or to other places) as data for proving astrology:
> >
> >* Fortunately, groups.google.com has collected a
> >* large part of all usenet posts, as a harvest
> >* that is now ready to be analyzed and sorted,
> >* in my opinion, best using astrology:
> >*
> >* Detach from the idea of real people and redefine
> >* people as screen names. Then you get a "birth",
> >* namely the first post under that screen name, and
> >* you get events in that "life", that you can then
> >* analyze in terms of transits to the birth time,
> >* of the current time, of birth time and transits
> >* of the group the posts take place, etc.
> >*
> >* (Note that this is maybe not as different as in
> >* real life: A birth chart gives away a lot of
> >* information about a real person, but looking at
> >* charts of parents, ancestors, home town, etc. and
> >* looking at names etc. almost always broadens the
> >* frame in interesting ways).
> >*
> >* So you get to the second data for billions of
> >* events that happened to millions of people "in the
> >* matrix", and most of it is not even real content -
> >* which would be very difficult to analyze - but
> >* instead is often fights without much real content,
> >* or misunderstanding because people do not see
> >* each other in use
> >
> >Definitely not a piece of cake to do in reality, but the technology
> >would already be there in many respects (people working at Google,
> >etc.). In my feeling and thinking, you can't convince unless you
> >have an overwhelming amount of data and more than expected fits.
> >
> >Anyway, another tool that might be put to use sometime.
> >
> >Of course, the notion of a tool and posting as Hermes hints at Pluto
> >in Virgo in my chart, and building up on things proposed by people
> >with Pluto in Leo. But Virgo is quite an obstinate sign in a way,
> >like - in similar ways - all mutable signs. They have to be more
> >obstinate than the fixed signs in order to let what the fixed signs
> >pursued and focussed on run out gently and prepare the ground for
> >new things to emerge.
> >
> >On the other hand, I notice a decline in my abilities to do really
> >fundamental analysis since it became clear that Pluto is no longer
> >a planet. I still have Uranus conjunct Pluto (* 7 Aug 1966 at 04:12
> >in the morning in Zurich, Switzerland), but it is clearly weaker in
> >effect in my feeling than it was before. Also a reason to leave
> >things as is, I guess.
> >
> >A similar weakening has also become apparent globally by the escape
> >of Natascha Kampusch just after Pluto had been demoted and I
> >guess it will continue to some degree. As recent reclassifications
> >have shown, being first in science is also valued similarly as in
> >astrology (where the first thing, the first moment defines the rest),
> >namely Pluto has now given his name to a large group of objects, so
> >some of Pluto's power will be preserved, but in my feeling the
> >absoluteness is gone - depth has remained to quite some degree, but
> >you cannot take away "a little absoluteness" and still remain
> >absolute, that is by definition of "absolute" not possible.
> >
> >* Natascha Kampusch (born 17 February 1988 in Vienna) is an Austrian who
> >* was abducted at the age of 10 on 2 March 1998, and remained in custody
> >* of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, for more than eight years, until
> >* she escaped on 23 August 2006.
> >
> >-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch
> >
> >In the spring of 2004 I had a different kind of idea. I posted it
> >to alt.astrology.tropical (post already removed, nobody replied).
> >In it I present an idea that links the existence of 4+1 elements
> >to the immediate experience of space and time. A quite timeless
> >thing, not bound to technology, ages, astrology etc. and also in
> >harmony with contemporary science and also with e.g. the I Ching.
> >
> >That alone is (in my personal opinion) worth more than all the rest
> >that I wrote about here. As a physicist, I am interested in nature,
> >not so much in immediate culture.
> >
> >That's it, once and for all. See this post [12] for a link to my web
> >site and my opinion about whether to provide any future support.
> >
> >Note that (without consciously planning to) that post turned out to
> >be exactly 42 lines long (without the headers)... ;)
> >
> >)o+
> >
> >PS: Wrote this in one flow 16 August 2008, just done now, and the moon
> >is currently at 19*42' Aquarius, time for a quick review and then out
> >with it (nearer Neptune, I guess), once and for all, I guess. :)
> >
> >[1] Liz Greene. Happy Birthday, Astrodienst - A look at the company's
> > birth chart. 2003. http://www.astro.com/people/chart_e.htm
> >[2] Ephemeris for 2008 at Astrodienst.
> > http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/2000/ae_2008.pdf
> >[3] Me. Moon Nodes as Gates. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20050221190937/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s228.html
> >[4] Me. "Book of Changes". Series of usenet posts. 2004. Archived at
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20050205022800/exactphilosophy.net/book/
> >[5] Robert Graves. The Greek Myths. 1960. 81k.
> >[6] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p166.
> >[7] Me. Axes and Opposites. Usenet post. 2002. Archived at
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20050216230010/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s095.html
> >[8] Me. Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac. Usenet post. 2002.
> > Archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20050215194330/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
> >[9] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p205+206.
> >[10] Bertold Brecht. Geschichten vom Herrn Keuner. 1930s.
> >[11] Me. Usenet and Experiment. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20050222091126/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s246.html
> >[12] Me. Usenet post with a link to my web site exactphilosophy.net. 2008.
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/1382338c74bc0867?dmode=source
> >[13] Me. Unconscious Communication and Astrology (see also original documents at
> > my web site). 2008 (2002)). Quoted by Apollia and I.R.Heller (thx!):
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/2659729d71e120c7
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/ce4ee614eeaea3bc
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Suppose my hypothesis was right that Pluto is losing power.
What effect(s) would that most likely have on plutocracies?
Twenty years from now, would people more likely consider
this rather a good or a bad evolution for society and the
individuals in it?
Mars and Uranus in Gemini: I invested a lot of energy into
writing my very long post, and what did then Jyeshta do in
a typically american way? She polarized out of proportion,
hinging all on a side-remark that is not directly related
to the main premises of my original post. That's exactly
how you slice and dice. :(
However, the reply did certainly also rise important issues
with regard to the USA and the Age of Aquarius etc. I have
no complete answer, no intention to invest any more energy
into finding one, unless I get some real public recognition
(Saturn in Virgo - Demeter on strike, or just realism as I
tend to view it) for my contributions to astrology and to
science. And also for looking at US issues astrologically
a lot more than at, say, Swiss issues, by the way.
Regarding the complex touched, I looked at charts of Chicago
(took me about 5 minutes to find the 1837 date and the earlier
1833 one, as well as a hint at the former "Obama" who first
settled there close to when the US was founded), considered
the themes of "The Dark Knight" and "Wanted" movies, and a
lot more charts and associations...
One image came to my mind: A street in Zurich with lots of
traffic, used mainly by people who go through Zurich, not
into or out of it. Two lanes, lots of red lights, typically
quite slow traffic. Houses relatively dark from exhausts
(at least for Swiss standards), lots of immigrants, and many
orthodox Jews, even a Synagogue at the street. A few houses
before the synagogue, when driving south, on the left is a
small shop that sells oriental carpets. A sign in the shop
says that they "repair carpets". Since when can a carpet be
broken? Is a carpet a machine that stops working? If it has
a hole in it, does it then become impossible to step onto
the carpet? But what if it was a magic carpet, a flying
carpet like in this Sabian Symbol that I looked up:
18-19 deg Aries: The "Magic Carpet" Of Oriental Imagery
Now 18-19 Aries is exactly opposite Venus and Mercury on
the day that stocks started to plunge (15 September) and
of course Mars was not far from that also in Libra, plus
Eris is lingering also around these degrees in Aries.
So one would feel that the "magic carpet" of the stock
market had been brought down by the opposition in Libra
and would now need repairs, I guess.
Once more, somebody just burst out investing maybe a few
minutes at most to post and then I had weeks of stuff to
consider in detail and write this post. No more.
I have preserved the post below at my site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/legacy/
Since it quotes Jyeshta and Petrus, please tell me anytime
if you would prefer your replies not to be listed there or
to be anonymized etc.
)o+
I wrote:
> There is one more thing that I think I should mention, which I
> only noticed yesterday evening...
>
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/hermes.htm
>
> Talking about the tensions and dangers since about 10 July...
> And how it relates to a text that I wrote when that asteroid
> was approaching the same sign in autumn 2001...
> And how it relates to my post of 7 July (still conclusive)...
> No good times for closed mental systems in this age, I guess...
> Best wishes to everybody...
>
> )o+
>
>
>
> I wrote:
>
> : Thanks! :)
> :
> : To be fair I should probably mention that transiting Sedna is
> : now on my natal true north lunar node, which might explain why
> : I feel from personal experience (before and after discovery of
> : Sedna) that discoveries of new objects "change the game".
> :
> : Sedna has no fingers, cannot influence the material world in
> : any direct way, accordingly this is also a good moment to let
> : all my public things be, which are almost all quite obviously
> : way too early for "prime time"...*
> :
> : Sorry if I do not reply in detail to the points below; let me
> : maybe just note that Switzerland had been known for centuries
> : after its founding to provide the most feared mercenaries to
> : various principalities all over Europe; more moderate approaches
> : like armed neutrality, diplomacy, the red cross, came only
> : several centuries later. Switzerland originally (August 1291)
> : also has the n.node in Leo, like the USA (and Spain, Hegira).
> :
> : )o+
> :
> : --
> : * Reply by sabian.org/oracle.htm (the one with the Mucha) to
> : what would be if I simply left my web site as it is for good:
> :
> : Scorpio 16 A girl's face turning into a smile. Keyword: Acquiescence
> :
> : Reply to converse question (upload very moderated changes of
> : this summer to my site, archiving current site?):
> :
> : Aquarius 14 A train entering a tunnel. Keyword: Courtesy
> :
> : Easy choice for me, or maybe in "matrix" language, helped me
> : to understand the decision that I had already made...
> :
> : Rozmarne leto...
> :
> :
> : In article <fftia4598j8cicqsk5htuflk1a0m8mfv3d@4ax.com>,
> : "whatever@twixtntween.com" <Jyeshta@giganews.com> wrote:
> :
> : > Inclusion of entire post for posterity, although my response is
> : > limited, below:
> : >
> : >
> : > On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:22:33 CST, Hermes
> : > <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> : >
> : > >[note crosspost]
> : > >
> : > >Petrus wrote:
> : > >
> : > >: > Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
> : > >: > Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
> : > >:
> : > >: Fascism is a manifestation of the two planets (Uranus and Saturn) both
> : > >: combining to produce a particular form of political government. In the case
> : > >: of fascism, it is the Saturnine half of the two which is more immediately
> : > >: visible, with Uranus manifesting as technology used to support it, and in
> : > >: the case of Communism, Uranus is the more visible of the two, with Saturnine
> : > >: totalitarianism underlying it.
> : > >:
> : > >: A political system which integrates these two in a positive sense would need
> : > >: to be very different. I believe here that the writing/perspective of
> : > >: Terrence McKenna is relevant, and this is also what such individuals as the
> : > >: authors of the play "Hair" were referring to.
> : > >:
> : > >: It would be a society which both integrated technology, (Uranus) but which
> : > >: was also very deeply based on indigenous/shamanic principles. (positive
> : > >: Saturn) Use of entheogens (Uranus) would be not only completely mainstream,
> : > >: but would also be one of the foundational pillars of the system. These
> : > >: substances would be used not only for contact with extraterrestrials
> : > >: (Uranus) but also for developmental experiences as well. There would be a
> : > >: very specific set of guidelines and customs (Saturn) regarding their use, in
> : > >: order to prevent abuse.
> : > >:
> : > >: Decentralisation would be another fundamental principle. Food would be
> : > >: grown and produced literally on an individual basis, or by parents for their
> : > >: children in the case of families. Individual self-responsibility (Saturn)
> : > >: would be recognised and would be regarded very highly. Water would become
> : > >: the fuel source in the same way that oil (Neptune) had been in Pisces, and
> : > >: various outgrowths from hydrogen based technology would be used to
> : > >: effectively repair the planet's environment and return it to a more original
> : > >: state. (Saturn)
> : > >:
> : > >: I'm not talking about perfection here. Even at its' most positive
> : > >: manifestation, Aquarius, like any other sign, is not perfect. Of all the
> : > >: signs, it is also by far the most strongly rejected. I have often thought
> : > >: that it would be better, far better, for the majority of my fellow man if we
> : > >: were able to simply have another 2,000 years of Pisces, and bypass Aquarius
> : > >: altogether. Most of humanity will not learn Aquarius' lessons willingly;
> : > >: Uranus is instinctively, very greatly feared...and truthfully, rightly so.
> : > >:
> : > >: The single main reason why we need to adhere to the positive integration of
> : > >: Saturn/Uranus in sociopolitical terms, however, is because if we don't, the
> : > >: simple alternative is our extinction as a species. There's only two places
> : > >: you can go from Saturn in particular. Past him, or to death; and you don't
> : > >: go past him until he is entirely satisfied that you've earned it; that
> : > >: usually means that you very nearly end up dying anyway.
> : > >:
> : > >: > 1) Download http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
> : > >: > 2) Unzip odyssey.zip and then open the file discoveries.pdf
> : > >: > 3) See section 3.14 The Age of Aquarius on page 16-18.
> : > >:
> : > >: I did so. Very interesting; particularly your perspective on the Aqu/Leo
> : > >: relationship and how that manifested in Hitler's Aryan ideas.
> : > >
> : > >Thanks a lot for the reply. In my feeling and thinking, your descriptions
> : > >give a quite accurate overall picture. I would like to throw in a few
> : > >thoughts and methods that I developed over the years and use them to look
> : > >a bit more into details at certain spots, but without trying or even
> : > >claiming to be complete or accurate. Just as an opportunity to eventually
> : > >apply these tools for a comprehensive view, like you presented above.
> : > >
> : > >In a way, these tools are my "musician's repertoire":
> : > >
> : > >* Uranus has just moved into Pisces after its 7-year sojourn in Aquarius,
> : > >* and this suggests an emphasis on the creative imagination and on the
> : > >* invisible dimensions of life. The last time Uranus went into Pisces,
> : > >* the jazz era was born and some of the greatest literature in the world
> : > >* was published in just seven short years.
> : > >
> : > >-- Liz Greene in 2003 [1]
> : > >
> : > >Also my public contributions, because they are mostly fragments in
> : > >usenet and even more fragments because I almost always removed my
> : > >own posts and only other people's replies and quotations remained,
> : > >my public contributions are a bit kafkaesque. Kafka is certainly
> : > >one of the writers that Liz Greene is alluding to, if not the best
> : > >single example, maybe. Or maybe not.
> : > >
> : > >In that sense, this present text will be an exception, rather a
> : > >Jazz Album than a Jazz Concert, a more constructed than improvised
> : > >public contribution, but still written within a relatively short
> : > >amount of time and not crosschecked in all details. Also, I added
> : > >some quotes, something that I usually also do not do much.
> : > >
> : > >But let me start...
> : > >
> : > >Currently Chiron is at 18*16' Aquarius, conjunct the true northern
> : > >lunar node at 18*35' Aquarius. Chiron is retrograde and moving at
> : > >about the same speed as the nodes, so this is quite a long lasting
> : > >phenomenon with a close conjunction between about May and October
> : > >2008 [2], which by the way gives this maybe also a "venusy" touch.
> : > >
> : > >* These mysterious points are often associated with "fate" because they
> : > >* represent the intersection points of the Sun’s and Moon’s orbits:
> : > >* a combination of "destiny" (the Sun) and "embodiment" (the Moon).
> : > >
> : > >-- Liz Greene about the lunar nodes [1]
> : > >
> : > >* H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
> : > >* the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
> : > >* People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
> : > >* the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
> : > >* more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
> : > >* more happy (e).
> : > >*
> : > >* H32bc are direct consequences of H32a. The moon moves
> : > >* below the solar path at the southern node and above it
> : > >* at the northern node, corresponding to entry into and
> : > >* exit from the unconscious (H32de).
> : > >
> : > >-- me in [3]
> : > >
> : > >* The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
> : > >* be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
> : > >* between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
> : > >* in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
> : > >*
> : > >* Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
> : > >* come back as a cow in my next life?
> : > >* Man: No, one does not come back as something that
> : > >* one has been before.
> : > >*
> : > >* There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
> : > >* eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
> : > >* fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
> : > >* dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
> : > >* then again feed young cows. That is why what can
> : > >* grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
> : > >* its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
> : > >* and house of the northern node.
> : > >
> : > >-- me in [4]
> : > >
> : > >So much about the nodes.
> : > >
> : > >What about Chiron?
> : > >
> : > >The orbit of Chiron is between the orbits of Saturn and the one of Uranus,
> : > >roughly touching both of them. Thus usually Chiron is also considered to
> : > >be a mediator of some sort between these two or also between individuals
> : > >and the collective, because the new planets Uranus and up are considered
> : > >often to be responsible for collective things, arguing also that this is
> : > >related to them not being visible to the naked eye.
> : > >
> : > >From a slightly different perspective, one could also say that Chiron is
> : > >a mediator between modernity and the past, between Age of Aquarius and
> : > >Age of Pisces. Let me explore this path a bit more.
> : > >
> : > >Traditionally, Saturn ruled both Capricorn and Aquarius. Only after the
> : > >discovery of Uranus in 1781, has Aquarius gotten a new ruler, Uranus,
> : > >sometimes (or maybe more often) as co-ruler with Saturn. But implicitly
> : > >more things changed: Traditionally, there is not really a full identity
> : > >between ruling planet and sign and house. Sun and Leo and 5th house are
> : > >traditionally not identical, whereas many modern astrologers more or
> : > >less obviously identifying them as a trinity.
> : > >
> : > >It is interesting to view the new planets as children of the Age of
> : > >Aquarius, as different facets of Aquarius and of his sometimes quite
> : > >exaggerated drive to change/progress things, which has effectively
> : > >resulted in more aquarian planets than ever before...
> : > >
> : > >But maybe back to Chiron as a first example:
> : > >
> : > >* No sooner had [Thetis] entered the cave and fallen asleep than Peleus seized
> : > >* hold of her. The struggle was silent and fierce. Thetis turned successively
> : > >* into fire, water, a lion, and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned what to
> : > >* expect, and clung to her resolutely, even when she became an enormous slippery
> : > >* cuttle-fish and squirted ink at him [...]. Though burned, drenched, mauled,
> : > >* stung, and covered with sticky sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and,
> : > >* in the end, she yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
> : > >
> : > >-- Robert Graves in [5]
> : > >
> : > >Interesting, by the way, also that this paragraph comes just before the
> : > >ones in which Eris tosses her golden apple...
> : > >
> : > >Peleus is, according to Robert Graves, sometimes also considered a centaur,
> : > >half man, half horse. And it was Cheiron who counseled Peleus how to get
> : > >together with Thetis (Cheiron seems to be prominent in many charts of love
> : > >encounters, see e.g. a seminar by Liz Greene in 2006 or so).
> : > >
> : > >There is a horse in the sky, Pegasus, in the vicinity of Aquarius. Thus
> : > >it becomes maybe also somewhat understandable why Neptune is also in
> : > >some ways an aspect of Aquarius. It was Poseideon (Neptune) who first
> : > >installed horse races in mythology. The fashion/vogue aspect of Aquarius,
> : > >that comes together with his strive for progress, fits with that.
> : > >
> : > >Interlude about natural resources: Uranus is the steam engine, in which
> : > >you burn (Element Fire) wood or coal (Earth) to generate motion. The
> : > >central element is Water (Aquarius, Water Bearer) and it evaporates,
> : > >becomes Air. In that sense, Aquarius is using, controlling the elements
> : > >to achieve his goals. Wood and coal is destroyed. Wood could grow back
> : > >from the ashes, but coal is old wood, so burning it is something that
> : > >can only be done for a limited amount of time.
> : > >
> : > >Neptune is oil, for example. More energy and also base material for the
> : > >chemical industry. There is certainly also a piscean side to Neptune,
> : > >no doubt about that, but it should be noted that during most of the
> : > >Age of Pisces, nobody cared much about that dark, stinking fluid that
> : > >comes out of the ground in some places (with minor exceptions, like
> : > >the use of natural asphalt). And nobody dug it up. Burning oil or gas,
> : > >is also a one way street of limited supply, like with coal above.
> : > >
> : > >Pluto is nuclear reactions. Supply for nuclear fission (Uranium etc.)
> : > >is also quite limited - like oil and gas it will not last for a whole
> : > >2000 years of an Age of Aquarius. Nuclear fusion, when it gets possible
> : > >will likely be possible for a longer time (and be much cleaner than
> : > >fission), unless of course, demands increases too much again.
> : > >
> : > >Interesting that generation of electricity from all these sources
> : > >usually involves the principle of the steam engine: Heat is generated
> : > >and used to evaporate water which then operates a turbine and
> : > >induces an electrical current - so very much Uranus stuff again.
> : > >
> : > >There is another long lasting reservoir, namely the heat stored in
> : > >the core of the earth. I think it was at the beginning of last year
> : > >or so that a company in Basel (Switzerland) started pumping water
> : > >into the ground and trying to use the steam that comes up in order
> : > >to generate power (experimentally). Now Basel is somewhat of an
> : > >earth quake region and hosts lots of chemical industry, so Neptune
> : > >territory. The evaporating water apparently induced a minor
> : > >earthquake, no damage to anything, but still more than usual, so
> : > >the company had to stop. But maybe in some more remote place, it
> : > >would be a useful possibility to generate energy that way.
> : > >
> : > >But the whole thing seems more like Neptune in Aquarius to me than
> : > >Chiron in Aquarius. Like in the piece of mythology above, Chiron does
> : > >though control nature, keeps it within some boundaries, but he does
> : > >not waste things without any limits.
> : > >
> : > >The new planets are to me a bit like a guy who has a table with four
> : > >feet that of different lengths so that the table is rocking. Then
> : > >he cuts off (or adds) a piece from one leg, or adds another leg. But
> : > >he does too much or too little of it and so the table is not stable.
> : > >Thus he tries again and again. Uranus was supposed to bring progress,
> : > >but then Neptune was needed, to maybe balance consciousness and the
> : > >(collective) unconscious. Then Neptune went maybe too far and Pluto
> : > >brought maybe some more depth and doing only what is necessary and
> : > >when that did not do, Cheiron was needed, etc.
> : > >
> : > >Pluto is the name of the Greek god of the underworld, who had many
> : > >names, in Roman one of them was also Februs, the god that gave his
> : > >name to the month February. Unlike Janus/January/Capricorn, who has
> : > >two faces that look away from each other, Februs is quite a bit more
> : > >limited in a way, forcing one single view. Sometimes that is good,
> : > >but sometimes this just means to make things unconscious like in
> : > >mythology where Uranus banned what he did not want to see to the
> : > >underworld, only to have them come back during revolutions.
> : > >
> : > >The idea of a collective unconscious, of a clear line between what
> : > >is conscious and what is not, is a child of the period after the
> : > >discovery of Neptune and before the one Pluto, it is aquarian,
> : > >I would say.
> : > >
> : > >Pluto was at its discovery first though to be as big as the Earth.
> : > >But gradually its size was revealed to be smaller, and after many
> : > >more objects of similar or even somewhat bigger size (Eris) were
> : > >discovered, it became no longer tenable from a scientific view to
> : > >consider Pluto a planet. That way (Chiron was already in Aquarius)
> : > >Aquarius started to heal himself somewhat. Science with its by
> : > >definition uniform and only true view of the world (very aquarian)
> : > >dictated (controlled) the emotional forces of many scientists and
> : > >many laymen and degraded Pluto to no longer being a planet.
> : > >
> : > >Like Thetis in the myth above, people have and are resisting the
> : > >new realities that are enforced by Chiron. But to no avail, in
> : > >my feeling and perception. In the end, they will yield and prefer
> : > >it that way. Certainly their children base their views on the
> : > >realities in the sky the know, not so much on the feelings of past
> : > >generations.
> : > >
> : > >That is why Aquarius is not liked. He manages to obtain majorities
> : > >with the goal to improve the situation for the average person, but
> : > >the ones who note his actions most are usually the ones who are
> : > >the victims of his changes, who are faced with a large instrumented
> : > >organization that forces them to do things they do not like.
> : > >
> : > >It is only in the aftermath that one notes the good sides, like
> : > >that many people in the world live like only kings lived about
> : > >1000 years ago: Almost constant temperature inside apartments,
> : > >no matter how hot or cold it is outside; turn a knob and you
> : > >get enough heat to cook; turn another know and you get drinking
> : > >water; and so on... Pleasant in the end, I guess, but I guess
> : > >some people suffered on the way there...
> : > >
> : > >But, as in any piece of mythology, one cannot just focus onto just
> : > >one opposite. The oppressive state and the revolutionary individual
> : > >are both part of the theme (or of other themes, like e.g. Aries).
> : > >
> : > >* The Greek word *mythos* contains two nuances of meaning. In one sense,
> : > >* *mythos* is a story. In another, more profound sense, it implies a
> : > >* scheme or plan. It is this latter shading of the word which is most
> : > >* relevant to both psychology and astrology, because the universality
> : > >* of basic mythic motives reveals a groundplan or purposeful pattern of
> : > >* development inherent in the human psyche as well as in the human body.
> : > >
> : > >-- Liz Greene in [6]
> : > >
> : > >Since opposites are part of the myth, it is not so easy to distinguish
> : > >between opposite signs, either. In 2002, I proposed [7] to describe e.g.
> : > >the inner mind of a Pisces as similar (at least in some respects) to
> : > >the outer activities of a Virgo. Like this: Virgo tackles disorder in
> : > >the outer world actively, starts to analyze and sort them. That way,
> : > >a Virgo's head fills up quickly with a lot of details, so in effect the
> : > >disorder in the real world diminishes, but at the same time there is
> : > >more disorder in the head, in the inner world. Conversely, Pisces are
> : > >much more reluctant to do something in the outside world, just letting
> : > >things grow and be as they (the things) wish. That way maybe things
> : > >get more disordered outside, but maybe only at first, but at least
> : > >inside there is lots of clarity and an ability to react very quickly
> : > >to suddenly appearing fundamental tasks, just because the essentials
> : > >are always present, but nothing else.
> : > >
> : > >Of course, that is an oversimplified description, but the theme that
> : > >inside and outside are reversed in many aspects for opposite signs is
> : > >likely a sound proposition. And a useful one. Or maybe not? :)
> : > >
> : > >Let me shed some light onto a few more of my tools...
> : > >
> : > >Elementary Astrology: In 2002 I proposed a simpler model of the signs
> : > >of the zodiac, an idea which I had incidentally when the sun was in
> : > >Aquarius in 2001.
> : > >
> : > >* In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
> : > >* of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
> : > >* different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
> : > >* just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
> : > >* images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
> : > >* simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
> : > >* twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
> : > >* pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
> : > >* zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
> : > >* fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
> : > >* elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
> : > >* after the other and explain things as I go along.
> : > >
> : > >-- Me in [8]
> : > >
> : > >An example says probably more: The fire signs are viewed in the model
> : > >as a burning fire. First there is lots of wood (Earth), then the fire
> : > >burns more strongly (Fire) and finally all goes up into smoke (Air).
> : > >These phases are viewed in the model as Aries - Leo - Sagittarius.
> : > >The element Earth is transformed by the element Fire to the element
> : > >Air. In Aristotle's cycle of the elements, Earth (dry+cold) gets hot,
> : > >becomes Fire (dry+hot) and then gets wet, becomes Air (wet+hot).
> : > >
> : > >Psychologically, there is a wound to the physical body (Earth) that
> : > >is growing. That is the wound of the Grail's King (Leo) and the even
> : > >deadly wound of Cheiron (Sagittarius, constellation of the archer is
> : > >Cheiron or at least a centaur - side remark: that was not mentioned
> : > >above when talking about Cheiron, unfortunately language is linear
> : > >and not well suited to present a complex web of associations, and
> : > >remember, this is just a exposition of some tools, of some ways of
> : > >thinking about astrology and the world, not complete or even balanced
> : > >system, not even an attempt into that direction - Lilith is in Sag.).
> : > >
> : > >Cheiron is immortal, which corresponds to the immortality of Air,
> : > >of knowledge that can be written down and communicated to future
> : > >generations, in contrast to the mortal body (Earth).
> : > >
> : > >* But the lion is a stage in a process, as Jung suggests; and it is
> : > >* this process or pattern, which brings us into the sphere of the
> : > >* fate of Leo. It would seem, from what I have seen in the life
> : > >* histories of Leos with whom I have worked, that there is an
> : > >* alchemical work to be performed. The lion is not permitted to
> : > >* remain in its bestial form, but must give way to something other.
> : > >
> : > >-- Liz Greene in [9]
> : > >
> : > >The animal side (Earth) diminishes, while conscious awareness grows.
> : > >There are many more examples how the simple model fits with many
> : > >things that astrologers write about the signs, from very basic and
> : > >maybe superficial things to the deeper psychological motivations.
> : > >
> : > >See also the introduction [8] from which I quoted above for a few
> : > >more basic examples. And see [4] for some abstract approaches to
> : > >Aries, Pisces-Aries and Air, based on the same model.
> : > >
> : > >Does maybe not fit in here fully, but besides looking at traditional
> : > >meanings of houses and the corresponding signs, it seems to me that
> : > >looking at the symbolism of the house *numbers* and the meaning of
> : > >the words used for astrological houses gives an interesting, more
> : > >fundamental view at houses, see also [4]. See also Heracles' tasks,
> : > >like the one where he cleans a stable, task 5, by - but for that I
> : > >need another model, just a second.
> : > >
> : > >That model is also part of [4], all emerged in posts to aat in 2004.
> : > >
> : > >1 - Fire - Sun - Conjunction
> : > >2 - Air - Moon - Opposition
> : > >3 - Water - Venus - Trine
> : > >4 - Earth - Mars - Square
> : > >5 - 5th Element - Mercury - Quintile
> : > >6 - ... (see also cross-cultural links to the Chinese I Ching)
> : > >
> : > >In the 5th task, it is an idea (1-Fire) that allows to clean the
> : > >stables in a very short time. Opening two gates at opposite sides
> : > >of the stable (2-opposition-Air), then combining two rivers into
> : > >one (2+1=3, Water), allows to wash out the dung (4-Earth) quickly
> : > >and easily without getting one's hands dirty. Combined you get
> : > >the 5th element, transformation of the elements.
> : > >
> : > >Now, this simple analytical view also reveals a similarity with
> : > >the steam engine mentioned above, showing again, that telling
> : > >apart opposing signs (here Aquarius-Leo) is not easy in practice,
> : > >at least not for me... :)
> : > >
> : > >Back to the elementary model and applying it to Capricorn and to
> : > >Aquarius:
> : > >
> : > >- Earth signs: Tree - needs sun/leaves/flowers/fruit (Fire) and
> : > > its roots (Water) to live. For Taurus the sunny, but short lived
> : > > beauty of flowers and leaves etc. is in the focus, while for
> : > > Capricorn, the focus is on the roots, on the structures that
> : > > keep the tree standing for many years. Virgo is in between, like
> : > > each middle sign of its element always somewhat in a conflict,
> : > > having difficulties to balance the elements, not sure whether
> : > > to create beauty or order.
> : > >
> : > >- Air signs: Cloud - first lots of lightning in a thunder storm
> : > > (Fire, Gemini), then starts to rain and in the end mostly just
> : > > rain and no more lightning any more (Water, Aquarius).
> : > >
> : > >So interestingly, both Capricorn and Aquarius are at the end of
> : > >a transition to Water, to feelings, harmony (Venus, trine, using
> : > >the other model above).
> : > >
> : > >Bertold Brecht (Aquarius) wrote the following in [10]:
> : > >
> : > >* "Was tun Sie", wurde Herr K. gefragt, "wenn Sie einen Menschen lieben?"
> : > >* "Ich mache einen Entwurf von ihm", sagte Herr K., "und sorge dass er
> : > >* ihm aehlich wird." "Wer? Der Entwurf?" "Nein", sagte Herr K. "Der
> : > >* Mensch."
> : > >
> : > >A but difficult to translate directly because it uses an ambiguity
> : > >in the German language that cannot be translated:
> : > >
> : > >* "What do you do", Mr. K. was asked, "if you love a person?"
> : > >* I make a blueprint of him", said Mr. K., "and make sure that he/it
> : > >* gets more similar to him/it." "Who/what? the blueprint?" "No" said
> : > >* Mr. K., "the person"
> : > >
> : > >Control, driven by a feeling of universal love. If I am not mistaken
> : > >the "Golden Age" was said to be ruled by Saturn.
> : > >
> : > >Willian Lilly linked Aquarius to "in Houses, the roofs", while he
> : > >linked Capricorn to "in houses low, dark places, neer the ground
> : > >or threshold", so closer to Earth, more directly shamanic, I guess.
> : > >
> : > >Aquarius is a fixed sign. The 20th century was not really like that.
> : > >It could really be that the plutonian side of Aquarius showed more
> : > >during that period and that things are already easing into a more
> : > >steady flow now. Difficult to say for me whether the more shamanic
> : > >traits of signs ruled by Saturn will show their influence already
> : > >soon or maybe will have to wait another 2000 years to really unfold.
> : > >I guess in 2000 years technology will have progressed so far that
> : > >individual local communities will be able to operate self-contained
> : > >again, a factory to produce goods might be quite small by then
> : > >(I am thinking maybe assembling things atom by atom or so). But
> : > >predicting technology in 2000 years is extremely difficult.
> : > >
> : > >Anyway, in one way I presume the Age of Aquarius will likely be a
> : > >bit boring too, like life in the USA,
> : >
> : > There is quite a bit in this entire thread with which I disagree
> : > but... life in the USA is boring? As opposed, perhaps, to life
> : > in Switzerland? Do people riot often in Switzerland? When was
> : > the last time Switzerland had "leaders" insane enough to start
> : > unnecessary and destabilizing wars?
> : >
> : > The USA has always been a country divided, even moreso after
> : > President Lincoln's achievement in "uniting" the states. Since
> : > then, the country is not only divided, it is diced.
> : >
> : > For one example: A date of incorporation for the City of Chicago.
> : > Chicago is known world-wide as the city of gangsters (and those
> : > who live in it know that nothing has changed very much).
> : >
> : > The date I'm using is May 12, 1875
> : > Noon, UT
> : > 87w39
> : > 41n51
> : >
> : > We see Saturn right on the MC in Aquarius, in a t-square with
> : > Moon in Leo in the 4th, and both square Sun, Pluto, Mercury in
> : > the 12th. That looks right to me. For decades in the 20th
> : > Century, city government was called "The Machine" (Saturn
> : > Aquarius), fighting or making deals with gangsters (12th house
> : > Sun Pluto Merc in Taurus) at odds with both the government and
> : > the people (Moon 4th house). The Sun Pluto Merc Taurus in 12th
> : > also accurately describes the city's huge cow slaughtering
> : > business (no one wants to actually *see* the cow being
> : > slaughtered when they're sitting down to eat a steak - 12th house
> : > industry, comparable to the ever-present crime syndicates, both
> : > within, and outside of, government).
> : >
> : > At the time of the 1968 Democratic Convention Riots, when out and
> : > out murder and mayhem graced the fine city, p Moon was nearly
> : > exact quincunx p Mercury - natal ruler of chart Ascendant. It
> : > was a disastrous combination of the people (Moon) against the
> : > city (Asc). p MC squared n MC. Except for those two aspects,
> : > the rest of the data suggests the incorporation date is about a
> : > year away from accuracy (and indeed there is an even earlier
> : > year, I think 1837, but I could find no date for that year).
> : >
> : > We could look at so many other riot charts - the recent L.A.
> : > riots of the '90s, the infamous Crown Heights (Brooklyn, NY)
> : > riots of the '90s, and so forth.
> : >
> : > I would not agree that life in the USA is boring. It's
> : > *dangerous*. Oh, and people barbeque here all the time, go
> : > camping, hike in forests and deserts, see national wonders of
> : > nature if they don't mind tourists from Switzerland (and other
> : > places).
> : >
> : > Oh yeah, we also start crazy wars a lot, and kill each other
> : > frequently.
> : >
> : > G.
> : >
> : > > which I view in many respects
> : > >as an egg that hatches the Age of Aquarius - Cancer shell to protect
> : > >it (sun), with a subliminal drive to spread its seed across the world
> : > >(moon in Aquarius). Again, these are just fragments, no claims of
> : > >balance or completeness or whatever - but good tools, I hope :)
> : > >
> : > >The Hegira had the n. node in early Leo, which spread to Spain in a
> : > >time when there was islamic influence to it. Also Great Britain has
> : > >this axis emphasized, just look at a british passport with a lion
> : > >and a unicorn (Leo-Aquarius). These countries sailed further west,
> : > >and so the same axis is also strong in Britain's former colonies,
> : > >with differing emphasis each, I presume.
> : > >
> : > >I remember a report from Sydney, Australia, where two immigrants said
> : > >that people were more often outside there, for barbecues etc., closer
> : > >to nature than most people in Europe or the USA.
> : > >
> : > >Allow me to get back to a few of my things (Switzerland, my home country
> : > >also has the n. node in Leo, if you take the old 1291 founding date).
> : > >
> : > >It was a love story that lead me to astrology and into the public.
> : > >In that sense, one of the reasons that my public contributions have
> : > >remained fragmentary are also related to this. Circling the castle.
> : > >
> : > >I am depositing these "side effects" here and now, with this post,
> : > >besides what already survived in fragments, as sort of a lead in for
> : > >more or less contemporary astrologers or for whoever might be
> : > >interested in them...
> : > >
> : > >Maybe I should also point out this usenet post [11] in which I propose
> : > >to use usenet post (or to other places) as data for proving astrology:
> : > >
> : > >* Fortunately, groups.google.com has collected a
> : > >* large part of all usenet posts, as a harvest
> : > >* that is now ready to be analyzed and sorted,
> : > >* in my opinion, best using astrology:
> : > >*
> : > >* Detach from the idea of real people and redefine
> : > >* people as screen names. Then you get a "birth",
> : > >* namely the first post under that screen name, and
> : > >* you get events in that "life", that you can then
> : > >* analyze in terms of transits to the birth time,
> : > >* of the current time, of birth time and transits
> : > >* of the group the posts take place, etc.
> : > >*
> : > >* (Note that this is maybe not as different as in
> : > >* real life: A birth chart gives away a lot of
> : > >* information about a real person, but looking at
> : > >* charts of parents, ancestors, home town, etc. and
> : > >* looking at names etc. almost always broadens the
> : > >* frame in interesting ways).
> : > >*
> : > >* So you get to the second data for billions of
> : > >* events that happened to millions of people "in the
> : > >* matrix", and most of it is not even real content -
> : > >* which would be very difficult to analyze - but
> : > >* instead is often fights without much real content,
> : > >* or misunderstanding because people do not see
> : > >* each other in use
> : > >
> : > >Definitely not a piece of cake to do in reality, but the technology
> : > >would already be there in many respects (people working at Google,
> : > >etc.). In my feeling and thinking, you can't convince unless you
> : > >have an overwhelming amount of data and more than expected fits.
> : > >
> : > >Anyway, another tool that might be put to use sometime.
> : > >
> : > >Of course, the notion of a tool and posting as Hermes hints at Pluto
> : > >in Virgo in my chart, and building up on things proposed by people
> : > >with Pluto in Leo. But Virgo is quite an obstinate sign in a way,
> : > >like - in similar ways - all mutable signs. They have to be more
> : > >obstinate than the fixed signs in order to let what the fixed signs
> : > >pursued and focussed on run out gently and prepare the ground for
> : > >new things to emerge.
> : > >
> : > >On the other hand, I notice a decline in my abilities to do really
> : > >fundamental analysis since it became clear that Pluto is no longer
> : > >a planet. I still have Uranus conjunct Pluto (* 7 Aug 1966 at 04:12
> : > >in the morning in Zurich, Switzerland), but it is clearly weaker in
> : > >effect in my feeling than it was before. Also a reason to leave
> : > >things as is, I guess.
> : > >
> : > >A similar weakening has also become apparent globally by the escape
> : > >of Natascha Kampusch just after Pluto had been demoted and I
> : > >guess it will continue to some degree. As recent reclassifications
> : > >have shown, being first in science is also valued similarly as in
> : > >astrology (where the first thing, the first moment defines the rest),
> : > >namely Pluto has now given his name to a large group of objects, so
> : > >some of Pluto's power will be preserved, but in my feeling the
> : > >absoluteness is gone - depth has remained to quite some degree, but
> : > >you cannot take away "a little absoluteness" and still remain
> : > >absolute, that is by definition of "absolute" not possible.
> : > >
> : > >* Natascha Kampusch (born 17 February 1988 in Vienna) is an Austrian who
> : > >* was abducted at the age of 10 on 2 March 1998, and remained in custody
> : > >* of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, for more than eight years, until
> : > >* she escaped on 23 August 2006.
> : > >
> : > >-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch
> : > >
> : > >In the spring of 2004 I had a different kind of idea. I posted it
> : > >to alt.astrology.tropical (post already removed, nobody replied).
> : > >In it I present an idea that links the existence of 4+1 elements
> : > >to the immediate experience of space and time. A quite timeless
> : > >thing, not bound to technology, ages, astrology etc. and also in
> : > >harmony with contemporary science and also with e.g. the I Ching.
> : > >
> : > >That alone is (in my personal opinion) worth more than all the rest
> : > >that I wrote about here. As a physicist, I am interested in nature,
> : > >not so much in immediate culture.
> : > >
> : > >That's it, once and for all. See this post [12] for a link to my web
> : > >site and my opinion about whether to provide any future support.
> : > >
> : > >Note that (without consciously planning to) that post turned out to
> : > >be exactly 42 lines long (without the headers)... ;)
> : > >
> : > >)o+
> : > >
> : > >PS: Wrote this in one flow 16 August 2008, just done now, and the moon
> : > >is currently at 19*42' Aquarius, time for a quick review and then out
> : > >with it (nearer Neptune, I guess), once and for all, I guess. :)
> : > >
> : > >[1] Liz Greene. Happy Birthday, Astrodienst - A look at the company's
> : > > birth chart. 2003. http://www.astro.com/people/chart_e.htm
> : > >[2] Ephemeris for 2008 at Astrodienst.
> : > > http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/2000/ae_2008.pdf
> : > >[3] Me. Moon Nodes as Gates. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
> : > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050221190937/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s228.html
> : > >[4] Me. "Book of Changes". Series of usenet posts. 2004. Archived at
> : > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050205022800/exactphilosophy.net/book/
> : > >[5] Robert Graves. The Greek Myths. 1960. 81k.
> : > >[6] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p166.
> : > >[7] Me. Axes and Opposites. Usenet post. 2002. Archived at
> : > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050216230010/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s095.html
> : > >[8] Me. Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac. Usenet post. 2002.
> : > > Archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20050215194330/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
> : > >[9] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p205+206.
> : > >[10] Bertold Brecht. Geschichten vom Herrn Keuner. 1930s.
> : > >[11] Me. Usenet and Experiment. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
> : > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050222091126/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s246.html
> : > >[12] Me. Usenet post with a link to my web site exactphilosophy.net. 2008.
> : > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/1382338c74bc0867?dmode=source
> : > >[13] Me. Unconscious Communication and Astrology (see also original documents at
> : > > my web site). 2008 (2002)). Quoted by Apollia and I.R.Heller (thx!):
> : > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/2659729d71e120c7
> : > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/ce4ee614eeaea3bc
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
Looks like the turning point has come. McCain has suspended
his campaign, Obama will, I guess follow soon. I just hope
that Bush #43 will not mess it up again. Estimates are quite
clearly, as far as I gather, that more than 700 billion are
needed to avoid the worst, i.e. the current plan will not
do, nor is it probably addressing all necessary issues.
I do agree with most of what you wrote below if I take all
statements by themselves, but I also think Petrus has catched
importan aspects of the overall picture very well in many
ways, although in the details things may be "questionable" or
at least in some way not completely thought through, in a word,
it contains lots of Libra, ahead of its time. For example, the
Uranus-Saturn theme in light of the upcoming (or already
started opposition of these two planets).
About present and future presidents (I am repeating myself,
but my original posts from a few years ago about that topic
are gone), I would like to to add the following, in order to
*complement* what has already been said in this thread.
For me the ideal US president has to combine essentially sun
and moon through the northern lunar nodes.
I picture that as Captain Kirk (standing for the north node
in Leo), surrounded by the doctor McCoy (sun in Cancer) and
Spock (moon in Aquarius). All the presidents that I had been
consciously aware since my birth, i.e. Carter, Reagan, Bush
Senior and Clinton were emotionally settled, relaxed. They
were (and are for the ones that are still alive) also ready
to start moving at any moment when necessary. And they had/
have fantasy, they have ideas. Although bound by all the
interests in the party they belong to, they were managing
the forces in the interest of the USA (and even the world,
to the degree that it is the free world), not only acting
in the interest of themselves and they had the necessary
abilities to do so.
At any time there was a crisis on the Enterprise, the doctor
would typcially react very emotionally (sun in Cancer). That
side is what Bush Junior represents. Gore (at least the Gore
in 2000, not so much the one now) reminded at least in public
a lot more of Spock, more a logical machine, with a lack of
feelings or at least a lack to express or recognize them.
Both Bush Junior and Al Gore gave me the impression of not
being much free, of being driven by some forces that they
could not fully understand and/or control. Family issues etc.
and above all, according to what I mentioned above, they
lacked completeness, self-awareness etc.
Kerry was in my feeling and view, not much better in that
respect. Obama is certainly better in that respect and the
old man McCain has certainly also shown his ability to find
new creative solutions, unexpected ones. Both would be much
better choices than Bush Junior (duh!). Obviously after eight
Republican years, a Democrat would usually be due (and
personally I have to admit that like many people in Europe
my concrete political opinions correlate a lot more with
Democrats than with Republicans), but any of the candidates
will be better than Bush Junior (I would be a bit scared if
Sarah Palin got president already within the next 8 years;
I am not sure if she is intelligent enough, and she does
like Bush Junior lack experience of the world outside of
the USA).
Good luck in any case!
)o+
--
Benjamin Franklin on Security (lightning rod):
* Those who calculate chances may perhaps find that not one death
* (or the destruction of one house) in a hundred thousand happens
* from that cause, and that therefore it is scarce worth while to
* be at any expense to guard against it. But in all countries there
* are particular situations of buildings more exposed than others
* to such accidents, and there are minds so strongly impressed with
* the apprehension of them, as to be very unhappy every time a little
* thunder is within their hearing; it may therefore be well to render
* this little piece of new knowledge as general and well understood
* as possible, since to make us safe is not all its advantage, it is
* some to make us easy. And as the stroke it secures us from might
* have chanced perhaps but once in our lives, while it may relieve
* us a hundred times from those painful apprehensions, the latter
* may possibly on the whole contribute more to the happiness of
* mankind than the former.
Simple ey? Really rather saturnian? (Franklin's sun, or maybe fits
also well with Jupiter in Capricorn now, Zeus that throws lightning
bolts, but of course also uranian (electricity) And/or also Cancer?
How about somewhat more solid dams around New Orleans, somewhat
more stable houses? Not like the technology would be missing...
Would be much nicer to just cuddle up at a safe home for two days
until the Hurricane is past and then simply step out again and
enjoy life again...
In article
<93066b75-572d-471c-8651-ec0cdb2ab8f7@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
DJ <doovinator@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 10, 1:53 am, "Petrus" <petrus.@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> > > Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
> > > Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
> ------
> oh, I've thought so for many, many years. Why did the SS have two
> lightning bolts as its symbol? Very uranian.
> ------
> > Fascism is a manifestation of the two planets (Uranus and Saturn) both
> > combining to produce a particular form of political government. In the case
> > of fascism, it is the Saturnine half of the two which is more immediately
> > visible, with Uranus manifesting as technology used to support it, and in
> > the case of Communism, Uranus is the more visible of the two, with Saturnine
> > totalitarianism underlying it.
> ------
> All manifestations come about in the "shadow" of the one preceding.
> Without the economic boom of the 1920s (jupiter) and collapse (saturn)
> of the '30s, the fascists and nazis (uranus) would not have developed.
> The USA is headed down the same path, and has been since the stealing
> of the 2000 election by America's own George the Third (as I see it,
> Clinton was basically positive jupiter, Bush very much negative, run
> amuck), and the resultant, saturnine, collapse of 2008, which would
> have developed quite differently if the more or less artificial
> extension of jupiter influence had been cut away by Gore or Kerry,
> both saturnine types. But if pinecones were pomegranates, we'd all
> eat.
> ------
> > A political system which integrates these two in a positive sense would need
> > to be very different. I believe here that the writing/perspective of
> > Terrence McKenna is relevant, and this is also what such individuals as the
> > authors of the play "Hair" were referring to.
> ------
> I don't think any political system has been or can be developed which
> cannot be corrupted. Some are better than others, but none are immune.
> ------
> > It would be a society which both integrated technology, (Uranus) but which
> > was also very deeply based on indigenous/shamanic principles. (positive
> > Saturn) Use of entheogens (Uranus) would be not only completely mainstream,
> > but would also be one of the foundational pillars of the system. These
> > substances would be used not only for contact with extraterrestrials
> > (Uranus) but also for developmental experiences as well. There would be a
> > very specific set of guidelines and customs (Saturn) regarding their use, in
> > order to prevent abuse.
> ------
> sounds like neptune to me.
> ------
> > Decentralisation would be another fundamental principle. Food would be
> > grown and produced literally on an individual basis, or by parents for their
> > children in the case of families. Individual self-responsibility (Saturn)
> > would be recognised and would be regarded very highly. Water would become
> > the fuel source in the same way that oil (Neptune) had been in Pisces, and
> > various outgrowths from hydrogen based technology would be used to
> > effectively repair the planet's environment and return it to a more original
> > state. (Saturn)
> >
> > I'm not talking about perfection here. Even at its' most positive
> > manifestation, Aquarius, like any other sign, is not perfect. Of all the
> > signs, it is also by far the most strongly rejected. I have often thought
> > that it would be better, far better, for the majority of my fellow man if we
> > were able to simply have another 2,000 years of Pisces, and bypass Aquarius
> > altogether. Most of humanity will not learn Aquarius' lessons willingly;
> > Uranus is instinctively, very greatly feared...and truthfully, rightly so.
> ------
> oh please! Tell that to a French Huguenot in September 1572. It wasn't
> the forces of aquarius to be feared. All signs have their time, and
> all are feared in a time of change.
> ------
> > The single main reason why we need to adhere to the positive integration of
> > Saturn/Uranus in sociopolitical terms, however, is because if we don't, the
> > simple alternative is our extinction as a species. There's only two places
> > you can go from Saturn in particular. Past him, or to death; and you don't
> > go past him until he is entirely satisfied that you've earned it; that
> > usually means that you very nearly end up dying anyway.
> ------
> all things die, eventually. Extinction, personally or as a species, is
> an inevitability. It's part of the passage of time. It's not an
> "alternative". It WILL happen, and when it does, we will be superseded
> by another. Nothing wrong with that.
> ------
> > > 1) Downloadhttp://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
> > > 2) Unzip odyssey.zip and then open the file discoveries.pdf
> > > 3) See section 3.14 The Age of Aquarius on page 16-18.
> >
> > I did so. Very interesting; particularly your perspective on the Aqu/Leo
> > relationship and how that manifested in Hitler's Aryan ideas.
In article <198nd4518buglaesvotjrcfrshgvf03i1a@4ax.com>,
"whatever@twixtntween.com" <Jyeshta@giganews.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 02:06:41 CST, Hermes
> <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> >Suppose my hypothesis was right that Pluto is losing power.
> >What effect(s) would that most likely have on plutocracies?
> >Twenty years from now, would people more likely consider
> >this rather a good or a bad evolution for society and the
> >individuals in it?
> >
> >Mars and Uranus in Gemini: I invested a lot of energy into
> >writing my very long post, and what did then Jyeshta do in
> >a typically american
>
> There is no "american" way. I posted as an individual from the
> United States. (There are more than one Americas, in case you've
> forgotten.)
>
> >way? She polarized out of proportion,
> >hinging all on a side-remark that is not directly related
> >to the main premises of my original post. That's exactly
> >how you slice and dice. :(
>
> It was a pertinent reply, I thought.
>
> >However, the reply did certainly also rise important issues
> >with regard to the USA and the Age of Aquarius etc. I have
> >no complete answer, no intention to invest any more energy
> >into finding one, unless I get some real public recognition
> >(Saturn in Virgo - Demeter on strike, or just realism as I
> >tend to view it) for my contributions to astrology and to
> >science. And also for looking at US issues astrologically
> >a lot more than at, say, Swiss issues, by the way.
> >
> >Regarding the complex touched, I looked at charts of Chicago
> >(took me about 5 minutes to find the 1837 date and the earlier
> >1833 one,
>
> Data please? And what did you find in them which is descriptive
> of Chicago?
>
> I'm so sorry that I replied to your post and caused you to spend
> so much time thinking about it.
>
> >I have preserved the post below at my site:
> >
> > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/legacy/
> >
> >Since it quotes Jyeshta and Petrus, please tell me anytime
> >if you would prefer your replies not to be listed there or
> >to be anonymized etc.
>
> If you preface it in the way you have done, no you do not have my
> permission to use my name or comments.
Done.
>
> <snip>
[note crosspost]
Here are some remarks from my side, regarding the crash
and a few more things here and there...
I wrote 16 Aug 2008:
: Currently Chiron is at 18*16' Aquarius, conjunct the true northern
: lunar node at 18*35' Aquarius. Chiron is retrograde and moving at
: about the same speed as the nodes, so this is quite a long lasting
: phenomenon with a close conjunction between about May and October
: 2008 [2], which by the way gives this maybe also a "venusy" touch.
And 23 September 2008:
: One image came to my mind: A street in Zurich with lots of
: traffic, used mainly by people who go through Zurich, not
: into or out of it. Two lanes, lots of red lights, typically
: quite slow traffic. Houses relatively dark from exhausts
: (at least for Swiss standards), lots of immigrants, and many
: orthodox Jews, even a Synagogue at the street. A few houses
: before the synagogue, when driving south, on the left is a
: small shop that sells oriental carpets. A sign in the shop
: says that they "repair carpets". Since when can a carpet be
: broken? Is a carpet a machine that stops working? If it has
: a hole in it, does it then become impossible to step onto
: the carpet? But what if it was a magic carpet, a flying
: carpet like in this Sabian Symbol that I looked up:
:
: 18-19 deg Aries: The "Magic Carpet" Of Oriental Imagery
:
: Now 18-19 Aries is exactly opposite Venus and Mercury on
: the day that stocks started to plunge (15 September) and
: of course Mars was not far from that also in Libra, plus
: Eris is lingering also around these degrees in Aries.
:
: So one would feel that the "magic carpet" of the stock
: market had been brought down by the opposition in Libra
: and would now need repairs, I guess.
If you look back to the big crash that started 24 Oct 1929,
you see that it shares two of the signatures mentioned above:
a) A close conjunction between Chiron and the northern node -
at about 12 Taurus in 1929, in the middle of Aquarius now.
b) A Venus / Mercury conjunction the day stocks started to
plunge - with a relatively wide orb in 1929 and very close
this year.
Some ruminations on money:
Money has originally been just a more convenient way to trade
goods, but using an intermediary like a gold coin instead of
transporting actual goods. Instead of trading, say, 3 sheep
for a cow, you could trade 3 sheep for a gold coin and then
at a different time and place a gold coin for a cow. In other
words, no need to bring the cow and the sheep together in the
same place. The gold coin had actual value, it was made of a
rare metal that had many uses. But even then to some degree
the value of the coin had a "venusy" touch. Gold is too soft
to make weapons out of it and in these times the most useful
application for gold was jewelry.
With paper money, things are already a lot more abstract and
bound to common trust. If you sell a car and get a bundle of
dollars for it, then you rely on being able to find someone
who will accept these pieces of paper in exchange for something
real. As soon as people feel that the money has no ideal value
any more, it becomes totally worthless because its literal value
(a few grams of paper) is close to zero.
With credit cards, electronic bank accounts, stock etc., things
get even more virtual and depend a lot more on mutual trust in
the system.
In that sense, I would start by saying that money has to do with
the elements Earth and Air, with the real goods and the ideal,
abstract value that people put into is.
There is also a definitely aquarian quality to money: Namely it
was the first form of advertisement. Put the nominal value of
coin on one side of the coin then you have free advertising
space on the other side of the coin, where typically a god or
an emperor was displayed. So in the Roman Empire people always
knew how the emperor looked like, a long time before newspapers
for a broad audience or TV etc.
Venus emerged out of the foam of the sea, where Uranus' genitals
had been thrown by Cronos/Saturn. The glyph for Venus is her
mirror, which shows both her literal and her abstract side, her
focus on her body, but also it being mirrored abstractly (try
touching your mirror image - it's not real ;) in the mirror and
focusses on the surface of the image, not on the internal mass.
Merchant comes from Mercury, but maybe Mars/March is also quite
close etymologically. Anyway, I guess that brings together many
elements mentioned above, the planets Venus and Mercury and the
signs that Venus rules, Taurus and Libra.
In Swiss German, being "stier", i.e. being "bull", means besides
being stubborn also being out of money. My parents, both Taurus
had practically no money on the side until about the age of 40,
when security became more important to them.
All in all, I would probably agree that money as an issue, if
reduced to a single symbol would most likely be Venus.
But what about Chiron and the nodes? The nodes make sense in any
situation where a tension that has long built up is being released.
I consider the nodes to be gates, that can be closed or open, and
through which energy can flow or not.
That leaves Chiron and reminds me of what I mentioned 16 Aug:
: * No sooner had [Thetis] entered the cave and fallen asleep than Peleus seized
: * hold of her. The struggle was silent and fierce. Thetis turned successively
: * into fire, water, a lion, and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned what to
: * expect, and clung to her resolutely, even when she became an enormous slippery
: * cuttle-fish and squirted ink at him [...]. Though burned, drenched, mauled,
: * stung, and covered with sticky sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and,
: * in the end, she yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
:
: -- Robert Graves in [5]
:
: Interesting, by the way, also that this paragraph comes just before the
: ones in which Eris tosses her golden apple...
:
: Peleus is, according to Robert Graves, sometimes also considered a centaur,
: half man, half horse. And it was Cheiron who counseled Peleus how to get
: together with Thetis (Cheiron seems to be prominent in many charts of love
: encounters, see e.g. a seminar by Liz Greene in 2006 or so).
So, I guess Chiron might be the planet that most closely
shows the connection between Venus and Uranus/Aquarius,
in the sense of my associating newly discovered planets
with different facets of (the Age of) Aquarius.
And Eris is part of the picture too, at least part of
the recent crash on the stock market.
Where will the stock market go ? I would say that after
Mercury passes once more the spot of the initial drop, i.e.
around 18 something Libra, which will happen tomorrow or
Wednesday, that then roughly the lowest point on the stock
market will have been reached. The "real" economy will,
as usual still go down for a year or two and then start to
go up again. Economy is cyclic to a large degree and a 7
year cycle is often identifiable - seven years is about
the time that Uranus spends in each sign. And compared to
the crash in 1929 when Uranus was in Aries, this time it is
still in Pisces, i.e. people are not yet ready to do just
what is in their immediate own good, but still linked to
a universal well-being in some sense, despite all of the
exaggerations...
As usual, just a few hints, no complete picture...
(Uranus/Saturn opposition, Pluto, and so on and on...)
About Superman/USA and Sagittarius AC (and Leo n.node
and Cancer sun and Aquarius moon etc.):
I guess the USA in WWII represented the similarity best.
Defeated the bad guys when necessary and then retracted
back to a normal life. Similarly, Superman could do so
many things to get rich and powerful, like create diamonds
with his heat vision, hear and see trade secrets by flying
around in Metropolis and using his super hearing and x-ray
vision. Then he could make lots of money in the stock
market and since he is physically not vulnerable, he could
quite easily become a dictator and rule over the planet.
But what does he do, he essentially choses to lead a normal
life, with regular people, tries to blend in and only to
help where/when his abilities are really needed.
As the character "Bill" in the movie "Kill Bill 2" pointed
out, Superman is not like any other superhero. Spiderman is
really Peter Parker, Batman is really Bruce Wayne, but
Superman is really Superman, he disguises to be normal, not
to be super, like the others. The devil's advocate might
especially question Batman's motives, since unlike Superman
and Spiderman, he has no "superpowers", isn't he just in a
way "stealing" the jobs of policemen ? A playboy that for
just an adrenaline kick chases gangsters, even not using
guns, as to increase the fun, like people today go bungee
jumping ? That is, of course, way exaggerated and incomplete,
but it also contains a grain of truth in my opinion.
All of these three heroes are fatherless, their parents
died early and they grow up with other people, not much
unlike Barack Obama, who grew up mainly with his grandparents.
Or not unlike Percival, and if you believe Liz Greene and
others not unlike a typical fate for Leos.
Yesterday on Swiss television there was a one hour interview
with a guy called Michael, who originally had
studied theology (catholic). In it he explained several things
about religion in the USA and it also featured two extracts
from interviews that the leader of a relatively large evangelical
(if I remember correctly) church made with both presidential
candidates. He asked both McCain and Obama the exact same
questions which he had received from members of the church.
Hochgeschwender's analysis was very interesting. For example,
one question was to in which ways religion influences daily
life. McCain immediately said that it was without getting
specific and then told an anecdote from his time as POW in
Vietnam. Obama, in contrast, was much more specific and
concrete it terms of everyday life, about how every day he
tries to do things right, knowing that he will not do perfect
and then will just try to grow towards that the next day.
Another question was related to abortion, about when life
starts, at conception, after 3 months pregnancy, etc.
McCain first said clearly "at conception" and then again
deviated away from purely religious thinking and getting
more political again. Obama argued a lot more theological,
as Hochgeschwender observed. He first said that he did not
feel qualified to make the decision, but that he could do
concrete things to reduce the number of abortions, namely
by improving social conditions so to make it easier for
women to keep their babies or maybe let someone adopt them.
So, in some sense, from a practical point of view, Obama
might be more helpful even for that quite fundamentalistic
church because he is more religious and more likely to make
concrete steps that might even make it more realistic to
some day have laws that protect unborn life more than today
with the same number of people agreeing with that.
I guess what makes Obama experienced, even a old man in a
way, and thus also conservative in a way, is that he grew up
essentially with the values of his grandparents and not so
much with the apparently quite unbound world of his parents,
if I am not mistaken his father was first a muslim and then
became an atheist or agnostic, and his mother was first a
christian and then became a buddhist. He knows the importance
of some steady values, a key ingredient of the USA.
That is not to diss McCain in any way. It is maybe important
to mention that Hochgeschwender (he is german) said that in
the USA catholics usually voted democrats, but that he had
favored McCain up to the point where he chose Palin as his
running mate, so that he would probably vote rather for Obama
now (hypothetically, of course, since he is not a US citizen).
Hochgschwender mentioned also that there had apparently been
several waves of evangelic religiousness in the USA and the
current one which started around the 1950s/60s would now already
start to slow down, mainly because the evangelic expectation
of the end of times (interestingly paired with a belief in
capitalism and progress) had not arrived with the year 2000.
In that sense, the war in Iraq could also be seen as a somewhat
desperate attempt to create a crisis (Uranus in Pisces and also
Dick Cheney's natal sun). Also, apparently an important person
who had said that he would still see the end of times during
his own life time has apparently recently died, another point
indicating that religion might lose some public influence.
Astrologically, that would fit with Pluto moving out of
Sagittarius, but soon Neptune will also move into Pisces,
also a very religious sign, especially with regard to the
christian an muslim religions which emerged during the Age
of Pisces. Jupiter traditionally ruled also Pisces and the
modern (co-)ruler Neptune will thus soon enter its terrain.
So, a bit like Obama, I dare not make a prediction...
Petrus (actually also the name of the first catholic pope)
mentioned Mars in Gemini in the US chart and I disagree with
the USA flipping opinions so erratically and quickly. And,
in my opinion, that is related to the other planet in Gemini,
Uranus, and related to that to the moon in Aquarius. It is
actually so that public opinion has a tendency to lock into
a view for quite some time, like first pro war in Iraq and
then later on without remorse flipping opinion and then
even having the nerve to blame others for it. In some sense,
it is always a good cop / bad cop "game", where with a retro-
grade Mercury and a sun in Cancer, there is always someone
trying to frame someone, maybe luring people into something
when opposing it would be less optimal from a machiavellian
point of view, only to later use that against the opponent.
As always, the naivety of the northern node in Leo and also
the AC in Sagittarius (now that Pluto is practically gone),
should allow to make the overall outcome good again...
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Hi everybody,
I have just published an article on my web site in which I
present some ideas that could allow to reconcile astrology
better with contemporary science:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html
The presented ideas show astrology, telepathy, precognition,
collective unconscious, feelings, love, religion and gods,
evolution by natural selection, divination, world soul or
anima mundi - and quantum mechanics - potentially in a new
and internally consistent light. Food for thought for future
concrete experiments by researchers in astrology and science!
The basic idea is..., but why don't you read the article
instead. Feel free to quote portions here, if you have any
specific remarks or criticism. Note that I studied physics
(PhD), but also know astrology quite well, so that in any
case the results might likely be of some interest ;)
Enjoy,
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Dale Huckeby <spock@evansville.net> wrote:
: On Oct 31, 8:00 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: > Hi everybody,
: >
: > I have just published an article on my web site in which I
: > present some ideas that could allow to reconcile astrology
: > better with contemporary science:
: >
: > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html
: >
: > The presented ideas show astrology, telepathy, precognition,
: > collective unconscious, feelings, love, religion and gods,
: > evolution by natural selection, divination, world soul or
: > anima mundi - and quantum mechanics - potentially in a new
: > and internally consistent light. Food for thought for future
: > concrete experiments by researchers in astrology and science!
: >
: > The basic idea is..., but why don't you read the article
: > instead. Feel free to quote portions here, if you have any
: > specific remarks or criticism. Note that I studied physics
: > (PhD), but also know astrology quite well, so that in any
: > case the results might likely be of some interest ;)
:
: Went to the link and found myself reading a welcome statement, not an
: article, with some links on the left side of the page that might or
: might not have collectively been "the article". At any rate, the
: material presented, if that's what you were referring to, seems too
: general and abstract to facilitate the reconciliation you speak of.
: For a more detailed and astrologically specific attempt to reconcile
: astrology with science (and common sense) see my
:
: http://cura.free.fr/xxx/27dale.html
:
: Dale Huckeby
Here's the text...
)o+
--
Long-range Feelings
....and their relation to astrology and other things...
[Gedankenexperiment, written end of October 2008]
Contemporary science draws a rather nonintuitive picture of what feelings
are: Electrochemical reactions in the brain, stimulated by external
influences like vision, sound, smell, etc. and by internal processes. Thus
if you cut all possible external influences, say, walk out of the room,
close you eyes, cover your ears and stop breathing for a few seconds, then
any remaining feeling of being in love or feeling someone will be just a
lonely illusion of your own brain - according to current science,
that is.
Everyday language suggests a radically different picture. "Feeling someone"
implicitly suggests an actual connection, as does the notion of an
"emotional bond". Are such expressions just relicts from more superstitious
past times or is there more to it ? How far do feelings reach ?
Let me tackle this question in a somewhat unusual way, namely by assuming
that there actually are long-range feelings between people and letting the
idea evolve. A bit more specifically, assume that brains could communicate
telepathically even across large distances. Such connections would have to
be unconscious, but could still influence people's feelings and thus
indirectly their actions.
After evolving the idea, there will be enough opportunity to review it with
gradually more critical eyes. Quite astonishingly, many of the predicted
phenomena might still exist even if in the end it turns out there are no
such spooky telepathic connections. But first things first...
evolution
*Freedom* Decisions usually depend on various factors. One factor is reality.
In a restaurant people typically order things from the menu. Another common
factor is logic. If the weather report forecasts rain for the afternoon,
you will probably go to work with a coat or an umbrella in the morning,
even if it is a bright, sunny morning.
But often also how one feels about a decision can be crucial. With
unconscious telepathic connections, feelings could even take facts into
account that you are not consciously aware of. Say, you are about to buy a
house and the price looks right, but you still feel uneasy about it. Then
maybe a good friend of your most significant other knows a guy who did some
repairs in the house and noticed some veiled damage. This and other facts
could have been transmitted unconsciously to your brain and might now make
you feel uneasy.
In such a world, everybody would still be fundamentally free, but how good
one feels would depend quite significantly on whether one's actions were in
harmony with what others wish. Close people like family and good friends
would likely have more influence, but also general opinions shared by lots
of people in a country would most likely have noticeable impact in everyday
life.
*Telepathy* It would not be possible to read someone's mind or to communicate
directly at a distance just by thinking. But some indirect hints might pop
up here and there, like two people having the same idea at the same time,
or two very good friends or lovers having the feeling of understanding each
other without much talk.
*Collective Unconscious* Similar to the billions of nerve cells that form the
human brain, all these connected brains could be considered to form a
meta-brain. Not unlikely this brain could have a consciousness on its own,
with its own feelings and intentions. Since it would consist of so many
brain cells, it could potentially even be much more complex and intelligent
than any individual brain.
Jung's term collective unconscious would fit some aspects of this entity:
Its workings would be unconscious to individual, conscious minds, and it
would be able to store collective knowledge, explaining, for example, why
there are some universal mythological/symbolical themes that recur in
dreams and in art, etc., even when the involved people do not consciously
know these themes.
In that sense, dreams might be more related to collective thinking than
conscious, individual thoughts. Also apparent occurrences of precognition
in dreams could be explained that way, since the collective unconscious
would have broader knowledge and concrete intentions what to do the next
day or days. In other words, dreams would reveal collective plans or
intentions, but would not actually be a precognition of the future in the
sense of physics.
Instead of a uniform collective unconscious, it would probably be more
realistic to assume that there are different entities at different scales,
like family, village, country, but also non-geographic interest groups like
football fans or musicians or communist stamp collectors. Such entities
could again have intentions and feelings on their own and might also be in
conflict with other entities.
In the case of religions, one might wonder to what degree such potentially
existing "superior beings" might be the same as the respective god or gods.
That would likely be the view of atheists and agnostics. Most religions
would probably stress that new science never answers fundamental questions
and that god or the gods created the world such that people can feel and
support each other, and that that is a good thing - which it probably
objectively would be, at least most of the time. In any case, religious
people would have to be very careful in practice not to confound collective
emotional feedback from their fellow believers with the actual will of
their god or gods.
*Astrology* To most scientists astrology is like a red rag to a bull. Take
the twelve star signs of the zodiac. How to group the stars on the ecliptic
is a cultural choice, different for example in China than in Europe. The
western constellations Aries, Taurus, etc. all have different sizes, only
very roughly representing 1/12 of the zodiac each, as assumed in astrology.
On top of that, due to the precession of the earth's axis, star signs and
constellations practically do not overlap at all any more since quite some
time.
But all of this has nothing to do with what astrologers do and observe: You
take a birth date and time and place and calculate a chart from it, a
drawing with a few lines and symbols. And then you compare what these lines
and symbols mean with how people feel and act down on earth. No actual
planets or stars involved at all in that process, except as a wish on the
side of astrologers and as accurate calculations of planetary positions.
So what if astrology worked to some degree because unconsciously and
collectively, people still believe in it ? People would still be free what
to decide consciously, but feedback from the collective unconscious would
emotionally reward decisions in accordance with astrology.
What sense could it possibly make to hang on to such an apparently archaic
and outdated symbolic system ? Actually, from a collective point of view,
astrology might be quite useful. For example, different sun signs are
associated with different ways of approaching an issue. One sign might just
try without much consideration, others might stop and think first, maybe
ask someone or even read a book, and so on. That would generally ensure
that for all problems, all different approaches would be tried with similar
frequency.
To the collective unconscious, individual people might be like ants to us,
not able to actually see the path they are walking on, only guided to stay
on it by the chemical track laid out on it. Similarly, it cannot be
expected of people to see the best solution for any problem at hand, except
for relatively simple ones. So it would be more efficient just to have
several people try and the one with the right bias succeed at it. That is
essentially a process of natural selection in the sense of Darwin, and also
astrology itself may have outlived several similar systems.
For example, star signs are also correlated quite heavily with typical
actions of farmers on the western hemisphere. Virgo at the end of summer
likes to sort things out and stack them in, like a harvest, while Libra in
early autumn prefers to trade and balance things, like needed for a
balanced stock to survive the winter.
Different cultures have different astrologies and also within astrology
there are different schools, so that there would be several superimposing
influences in practice. Formally testing whether such complex correlations
actually exist would be very difficult.
*Anima Mundi* If human brains are connected, so would be brains of animals,
at least within their species, but possibly also across species. If so,
then evolution might even contain some elements of purpose, added to the
known mechanism of random mutation plus natural selection. It would be the
natural selection part that could be improved, for example by protecting an
individual animal with a useful mutation from harm by guiding it towards a
safe area with lots of food, providing a mate, and so on.
Such effects would be even stronger if connections were not bound to
brains, but instead a general property of living matter. But let me take
things a step further: What if such connections were a natural property of
all matter ?
That would be the very old idea of a living world, Plato's world soul or
anima mundi. In terms of modern scientific concepts, maybe quantum
mechanics would fit best here. The following interpretation is a bit far
fetched, but also not in direct disagreement with experimental evidence.
Virtual particles could exchange information about quantum mechanical
correlations behind the scenes, i.e. unconsciously, while real particles
would correspond to observed, i.e. conscious, reality. Real particles are
bound by the speed of light, while virtual particles are not. So this would
fit with quantum mechanical entanglement not being bound by the speed of
light, and, as a consequence of special relativity, virtual particles would
connect the future back to the past. Causality would be preserved in all
observable phenomena, while behind the scenes everything would be connected
to everything, both in space and time, but more weakly with increasing
distance in space and time.
If so, collective intentions could also influence the random mutation part
of evolution. And also divination systems like Tarot cards or the Chinese I
Ching could work via collective influence on the outcome of quantum
mechanical measurements.
review
*Simplicity* Is it necessary to postulate telepathic connections ? Which
phenomena could already be explained using current physics ?
Information could be exchanged subliminally in normal conversations, using
intonation, gestures, and so on. More collective messages could be
distributed via mass media. In between such exchanges, each person's brain
could maintain a model of what it thinks that other people would feel and
think about a particular decision. Using a term from technology, this would
be a store-and-forward network.
That would apparently be consistent with all proposed effects, except the
ones near the end, where a direct influence of mind over matter in the
sense of being able to influence the outcome of measurements in quantum
mechanics would be required.
*Experiment* How could one tell the different models apart ? How could one
test experimentally whether the proposed effects really exist ?
This might be very difficult, if collective intentions work against the
experimenters. For example, suppose you take a couple of lovers and isolate
them from each other (with their consent, of course) in two labs in the
desert on two separate continents. Then you measure activities in their
brains while, say, one of them eats something spicy and then look for
correlations. To reduce external influences, experimenters would not be
physically present. However, if there really are long-range connections,
collective influences from the rest of the population could skew results a
lot, possibly even destroying the effects whenever an experiment takes
place.
Basically, the proposed effects violate two premises that are usually
assumed to hold in scientific experiments. The first premise is that
effects can be studied in a lab in isolation. This is not possible if the
effects postulate that isolation is not possible. The second premise is
that nature is assumed to be pretty stupid. If you ask nature the same
question twice, you expect it to repeat the same answer. You do not expect
nature to learn or even to trick you out, like a kid playing with ants by
letting them walk onto leaves and then moving them around as you like.
So, unless maybe someone develops a concrete extension of quantum field
theory that would involve long-range interactions and would predict
different phenomena in certain regimes, direct approaches to the effects
seem very difficult. This would be consistent with the fact that all such
attempts have failed to date.
*Indirection* Maybe a less direct approach would be more fruitful here, one
that would try to correlate the principles by which the collective
unconscious might operate, like astrology, with observed reality.
Such an attempt would also be quite difficult because there are no simple
formal descriptions of astrology, instead there is a huge amount of prose
literature. The path to becoming a good astrologer is rather informal,
besides learning from books, actually comparing birth charts with real
people is a key ingredient. Historian and astrologer Robert Hand has
compared astrology to a craft, which reminds me of chemistry in the not so
distant past.
If you look at chemistry from a phenomenological point of view, it is very
complex. The substances that react with each other and the resulting
substances can have completely different properties. Nonetheless has
chemistry become an exact science, understood from the ground up.
Isolated experiments regarding astrology would very probably show no
effect, because the collective unconscious might have directed the
experimenters there. And, indeed, this would be consistent with results so
far. A much broader approach, based on lots of data and a simple model that
makes an exponential amount of concrete predictions would have much better
chances to reveal correlations.
Instead of collecting lots of birth and event data from real people, it
might pragmatically be much more efficient to tap into the already
digitized world of the internet. For example, the date a web site was
registered or the moment a usenet post was first made under a given screen
name could be taken as birth data for the respective entities.
Especially usenet and similar forums would provide lots of timed events in
such virtual lives that could be compared with what a particular
astrological model would predict. Since online conversations have a
tendency to be somewhat repetitive and stereotypical, this might even make
analysis easier. Search engine technology and experience might be very
useful for such a scientific adventure.
leads
Just a few of my personal favorites...
- It has often been proposed that quantum mechanical coherence and life
and/or consciousness might be related.
At least in non-living macroscopic matter, such correlations are expected
to decay almost immediately, in any piece of macroscopic matter around or
above room temperature. This relatively new result is from the research
field of decoherence, which is actually merely a new application of the
laws of quantum mechanics and as such part of it. See, for example, the
review article by Max Tegmark and John A.~Wheeler in the February 2001
issue of the Scientific American or just click here for a preprint.
But what if coherence was exactly a main property of living matter as
opposed to dead or non-living matter ? It has been observed that biological
tissues emmit a small amount of (coherent?) light, so called biophotons. The
number of emitted photons is very small, but might still be relevant.
Maybe entangled quantum states could be created and stored when people meet
and then allow to keep their thoughts and feelings correlated, even when
they are apart ?
- It should be noted that decoherence cannot solve the measurement problem,
even though it is an important step into that direction. Click here for a
usenet post by me of January 2003 to sci.physics.research, in which I make
this tangible in form of a Gedankenexperiment that combines EPR with
Schrödinger's Cats and Wigner's Friends.
- In my original publication of June 2002, which can be found in the
archive, I proposed somewhat more specific long-range connections with spin
1 polarisation, based on past personal experiences, and also a related
Gedankenexperiment involving "selective sensing" of virtual photons,
inspired by the total solar eclipse of August 1999. Still my best guess.
- ...
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Dale Huckeby <spock@evansville.net> wrote:
: On Oct 31, 8:00 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: > Hi everybody,
: >
: > I have just published an article on my web site in which I
: > present some ideas that could allow to reconcile astrology
: > better with contemporary science:
: >
: > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html
: >
: > The presented ideas show astrology, telepathy, precognition,
: > collective unconscious, feelings, love, religion and gods,
: > evolution by natural selection, divination, world soul or
: > anima mundi - and quantum mechanics - potentially in a new
: > and internally consistent light. Food for thought for future
: > concrete experiments by researchers in astrology and science!
: >
: > The basic idea is..., but why don't you read the article
: > instead. Feel free to quote portions here, if you have any
: > specific remarks or criticism. Note that I studied physics
: > (PhD), but also know astrology quite well, so that in any
: > case the results might likely be of some interest ;)
:
: Went to the link and found myself reading a welcome statement, not an
: article, with some links on the left side of the page that might or
: might not have collectively been "the article". At any rate, the
: material presented, if that's what you were referring to, seems too
: general and abstract to facilitate the reconciliation you speak of.
: For a more detailed and astrologically specific attempt to reconcile
: astrology with science (and common sense) see my
:
: http://cura.free.fr/xxx/27dale.html
:
: Dale Huckeby
Alternative reply...
I have rewritten the original text (see yesterday's post)
and the new text is now available at the original link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html
I am not sure which one is easier to understand to the
"general reader", but the second version is most likely
more precise from a scientific point of view.
I have also added an introduction to my site tailored
for astrologers visiting my site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/astro.html
My site must be "conceivable" also by people who are not
astrologers, like scientists or everyday people who often
are repelled when they see astrological things. So my web
site does not normally advertise these things up front,
but the content is there (and more to come).
If you ask me, this stuff is phenomenal, a revelation,
but obviously, I might be biased ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
DJ wrote:
: I don't think we should, or even can, reconcile astrology with
: science, I think we should reconcile science with astrology.
: Reconciling astrology with science is like trying to push a beach ball
: through a straw. You need a bigger straw.
Science per se is a lot more open to new things than
most scientists would like it to be.
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Hi everybody,
I have uploaded a preview version of my web site 2009:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
What's new:
- subsection "long-range feelings"
Are feelings something that is shared between two or more
people as often implicitly assumed in everyday life, or are
feelings isolated effects in each person's brain, as it is
according to contemporary science ? Astonishingly, telling
the two possibilities experimentally apart might be a lot
harder than it might appear at first. A lot more cool stuff
in that section, see for yourself...
- subsection "interfaces and cylces"
An attempt to derive Aristotle's cycle of the elements from
first principles; fails, but not completely since it leaves
only a small number of simple possibilities open.
- section "Archive"
A collection of links to some of my previous public works,
includiny many related to (Western tropical) astrology, but
there is more, ranging from philosophy to quantum physics
(I am a physicist, by the way...;)
- section "References"
Abstract and link to a paper titled "Bipolar Change" that was
published in the Journal of Chinese Philosophy this year and
which refers to my site and its main new idea.
What's still there:
- section "elementary philosophy" and subsections
A simple model that defines 4 quantities from the immediate
experience of space and time, inspired by Kant's philosophy
and then qualitatively identifies them with the 4 elements
from ancient Greek philosophy, i.e. Fire, Air, Water, Earth.
See for yourself for more details and also the 5th element
and a cross-cultural reference to the 8 trigrams of the
Chinese oracle I Ching (or Yi Jing).
Additionally scheduled for 2009 release (5 January):
- subsection "long-range feelings"
A few refinements and some leads.
- section "elementary philosophy"
Hopefully a few simple and beautiful illustrations to make the
maybe apparently abstract ideas more tangible for most readers.
Likely in the 2010 release:
- subsection "elementary star signs"
A simple model of the 12 star signs of the (Western) zodiac in
terms of transformations between the four elements. See Archive
in the meantime for some older texts that expose this model in
some detail. Despite its simplicity, the model is not simplistic,
it does not only capture basic properties of the star signs, but
can also serve as a very useful guide for deeper analysis, as I
hope to show then...
- subsection "magic carpets"
A collection of concrete contributions to symbolic analysis,
mostly, but not only, around Western tropical astrology. See
Archive in the meantime for many such examples, albeit in a
somewhat less polished form...
Planned further into the future:
- Yearly releases (5 January), plus usually a preview in late
autumn of the previous year
- More illustrations, generally more easily accessible stuff
- Formal attempts to synthesize provable predictions from the
main model under "elementary philosophy
- Whatever might evolve...
What is not planned:
- Any further usenet activities, except something like this
announcement every year (and possibly 1 or 2 related replies)
- No replies to trolls (I am posting this to various newsgroups,
not only moderated ones, and even there I was quite astonished
lately that even at sci.physics.research someone was so scared
angry to mistake absence of evidence with evidence of absence;
what a silly type of idiots: an open issue is simply open -
no less, no more - except for austriches who put their head
into the ground like little children or old men... ;)
Alain Stalder )o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
[note crosspost]
DJ wrote:
: On Nov 29, 5:37 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: [...]
: I was quite astonished
: > lately that even at sci.physics.research someone was so scared
: > angry to mistake absence of evidence with evidence of absence;
: > what a silly type of idiots: an open issue is simply open -
: > no less, no more - except for austriches who put their head
: > into the ground like little children or old men... ;)
: >
: > Alain Stalder )o+
: ------
: doesn't surprise me at all, some of the most bigoted and ignorant
: people I know are "scientists"--
:
: ~DJ
Certainly resonates with me, but the other way round, if
I think of the physicists I know in person, those people
are most of them OK, reluctant to approach some maybe
rather metaphysical things, but still basically open
towards nature and the beautiful secrets she is likely
still keeping... But there are also other scientists,
maybe not so many physicists, because you need a certain
amount of phantasy and intelligence to study physics
in the first place, and arguably things have gotten
quite a bit worse since the 1990s - which I tend to
associate with Uranus and Neptune passing through
Aquarius, so that a lot of research has been made a
slave of technology, of immediate short steps that
can quite directly be turned into money, at the cost
of fundamental research and hence also closing people's
minds in these fields or driving them out of it...
Actually I would also like to take a look at the chart
of sci.physics.research, which I find is quite subtle
and in some respects reflects the minimal beauty of
research in physics, and also of a recent "spin-off",
sci.physics.foundations, but I think I got something
more important to say...
Tonite my favorite movie of the 21st century, "Lost in
Translation", by Sophia Coppola, was on TV and I watched
it simultaneously on DVD (I prefer english original sound)
and while watching it, I reconsidered my idea in which I
defined the elements in terms of immediate experience of
in/out (space) and rest/move (time), and I think I finally
found a quite natural synthetic step how to continue...
Synthesis is something that does not come naturally to me,
with my Saturn at the end of Pisces and Cheiron not so far
behind, with my Uranus/Pluto conjunction around 17 Virgo,
I am much better at analysis, or at least have been in the
previous years, but to the idea, first schematically:
in+move =: emi (water)
in+rest =: eri (air)
out+move =: emo (fire)
out+rest =: ero (earth)
connections (interfaces)
outside: things start to move and come to rest: fire<=>earth
inside: dito: air<=>water
new:
connections between in and out are twofold:
- male/conscious/individual: air<=>fire
(will to do something => movement outside,
observation of changes outside => laws of nature)
- female/unconscious/collective: water<=>earth
(feelings, archetypes <=> outer reality, art/architecture)
This reflects also two approaches towards power/incluence
over the world and conversely, influences from the world:
male: rather so that observed outside world is not part of
the observing (male) individual, but something separate,
that can also be conquered, by acting outside
(the will to act (air) => action outside (fire))
female: rather so that observed outside world is considered
to be part of the felt self, that by feeling and
wishing and wanting, some things come true
In the latter sense, it was certainly also indirect, rather
symbolic contents in recent things I saw, discussed, etc.,
that helped me get into a state of mind where I would have
this idea. That shows that even something that maybe even
many astrologers would consider far-out, namely discussing
the birth chart of a (in retrospective certainly) prophetic
toilet can be fruitful.
Not that I think I have a full analytic understanding of
the chart, but here are some recent thoughts: I often imagine
the planets in aspect like the greek gods themselves, say,
like they are depicted in statues. Retrograde Mercury closely
conjunct Venus would thus suggest that they are butt to butt
and that their butts are almost touching.
Last weekend I was at a good friend's house, and he had a
copy of the first book by a woman that he knows (and who I
had also met about twice). Sun in the middle of Libra,
Pluto in very early Libra (so tight square to Pluto now and
also in the toilet's chart). She works as a medium and has
the impression that she can talk to the dead (c.f. e.g.
Liz Greene's "The Astrology of Fate" and the related myths
about Egyptian Ma'at there who weigh's the heart of the
deceased on a scale agains a feather or his/her sins).
In her book, she showed a graphic in which she described
the ideal form of contact between people. There were about
5 drawings with two circles each, in one drawing they were
just touching, in one separate, in one overlapping such
that the lines were still present, in one overlapping such
that lines intersected, don't remember the 5th. According
to her, the best one was the one where they just touched,
understandingly for a Libra sun and Pluto, but other signs
would certainly disagree at least when love in concerned
and not just remote acquaintances.
That reminds, of course, of the two orbs of Mercury/Hermes
and Venus/Aphrodite Kallipygos*
* http://www.skulpturhalle.ch/sammlung/highlights/2003/08/kallipygos.html
Actually that reminds also of the situation in which I first
met the woman mentioned above. I was invited to her birthday
party, she was in the kitchen, doing something, facing away
from me, wearing pants (black I think) and in front of her
was one of her two dogs (who's heads remind me maybe most of
Anubis) and he had his long nose between her legs at the
highest point so that I could see the nose sticking out.
As far as I gather, Venus is associated with kidneys, but
also with the lower back and the butt...
Anyway, thanks muses for this one, I guess with the n.node
in Aquarius and the s.node in Leo, the base material to make
art with is maybe a bit unusual, but still workable... ;)
With all my planets in Cancer (Jup/Mar/Ven) I guess I am
always looking for a way to have it both ways, so that I
think I can now both evolve my ideas on my site from a single
fundamental idea, but also link more free, more astrological
explorations into it without losing contact with physics,
not even in the eyes of honest visiting physicists in the
end... Or something like that maybe...
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
I know, I know, I am a little bit early for 2009...
but merry X-Mas and happy New Year to everybody in any case :)
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exactphilosophy.net 2009
What's new this year:
* evolutions => long-range feelings
How a simple hypothetical assumption, namely that there is a sort
of unconscious communication between people, yields a picture of
reality in which astrology, collective unconscious, god or gods,
precognition, free will and fate, and a lot more similar things,
would have a natural part in the scientific view of the world,
and would also explain why formally proving the existence of such
phenomena has essentially failed so far...
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html
* elementary philosophy => space and time
Added a photo and a simple illustration of the basic idea.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/spacetime.html
* evolutions => elemental cycles
"How Aristotle's cycle of the elements might grow naturally from
the ideas presented previously, at least as one of just very few
simple possibilities."
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/cycles.html
* evolutions => magic carpets
A short collection of some of my previous public contributions,
most of them to usenet and related to astrology.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/magic.html
* More little changes
See for yourself, the site consists only of about 15 pages or so,
hence you can get a detailed overview in less than 5 minutes...
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/evolutions.html
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/links.html
...
In the queue for next year:
* More stuff directly related to astrology, like my simple model of
the star signs in terms on transitions between the elements, and
some more original ideas. Stay tuned... :)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
[note crosspost, I will contact my internet provider after the
holidays, looks like they messed up the configuration for aam]
Would anybody be interested in using a usenet news reader
specialized for usenet posts about astrology ?
Let me be more specific about what I have in mind.
At very least, it would recognize and translate this:
- "Aries" in text => little image with glyph for Aries
(plus same for all other star signs)
- "Mars" => little image with glyph for Mars
(plus same for all other major objects)
- "trine" => little image with glyph for trine aspect
(plus same for all other major aspects)
- "this is *important*" => important in bold type
- "so called _gremlins_" => gremlins in italic type
- "http://www.mysite.com/chart.gif" => displays chart image inline
- "http://www.mysite.com/sig.gif" => displays signature image inline
Additional features might include:
- possibility to create a chart on the fly from indicated
chart data, maybe something along this:
[chart title="my cat" date="20080101" time="000500EST" place="New York, NY, USA"]
from which then a chart would be calculated on-the-fly
by the news reader and displayed inline in the text;
probably would be required to be able to define custom
*styles* for the chart (which objects to include, which
aspects, aspect orbs, house system, synastry, and so on)
- possibility to tune what is replaced by which glyphs
(to add glyphs for new or rarely used objects or personal
preferences like the glyph for Pluto or Uranus, or smileys)
I make no promises to pursue, but I wonder whether there is a
"text-only" purist majority in usenet or whether a more graphical
experience would be generally welcome if it is easy to use ?
As for concrete implementation, I would see basically two
main options:
1) Local client application (if I would write it, I would
probably write it in Java).
2) Web based portal.
Some arguments pro 2):
- much easier to write and maintain (single instance,
just render html, which every browser can then display)
- could be used from any device that can access the web,
including smart phones etc.
Some arguments against 2):
- single point of failure (high server availability required*)
- hosting web site might maybe be held responsible for the
contents that is posted, since technically it would be the
hosting site that would make the actual post to a news server
(but, of course, the same applies in principle to any news
server that you use to post today, so this might not be
relevant in practice)
- for chart calculations, the hosting site may not use Swiss
Ephemeris (using it for an online service would be against
the license - unless the hosting site was astro.com :)
but in case 1) this would be possible
* high availability required, but no need to carry heavy load,
by simply restricting access to the handful of astrology usenet
groups (or even only to moderated ones)
Any preferences from user side here ?
Just in case, this is just an idea - I make no promises at all
to pursue with this, at least for me (I do not maintain a web
server at the moment, for example) getting involved with this
would mean quite a bit of work during some years to come... ;)
I do feel that the architecture of usenet does fill a global
need by allowing a large degree of free expression, both in
form and contents. Web based forums can only partially replace
that, because their maintainers are legally liable for the
contents to much greater degree, and also because in order to
keep costs and times for maintaining the forum within some
limits might understandably be forced to cut here and there.
While I am at it, here is a sketch of an idea how maybe one
could reconquer unmoderated usenet... Kill files were an early
attempt to sort of draw a line between who is making productive
contributions (from one's point of view). But since other people
were not aware of who is on who's kill file and also since is is
quite simple to assume a new identity in usenet, that did not
work in practice. Why not reverse the list and instead provide
a "live list", a list of posters who you read regularly and for
whom you could indicate a few details about how you "rate" them.
Not mentioned in that "live list" would anybody who you consider
to be a troll, and also not listed (yet) posters who post rarely
or are new. The "live list" would be posted along with every post
you make and the news reader could then collect the information
and merge it together, only taking into account information from
one's *own* "live list", i.e. only taking opinions into account
from people you trust (or initially tentatively trust).
Usenet has the north lunar node in Virgo, somehow the path in
its life is away from the collective sea, into more structures,
like usenet hierarchies (in the beginning there were none), and
also into other ways of structuring contents, without excluding
things for good nor without making any absolute statements about
what is right or good.
In such usenet headers, one might maybe note the following things
about a poster:
- skill level on a scale from 1 to 10
- receptiveness to what others post and say, same scale
- short prose statement with more details or qualifications
Cannot work ? Maybe, but if it fails, it would be interesting
to see in which ways it would fail. Is Pluto in Capricorn afraid
of failure ? ("what does not kill you, only makes you stronger" ?)
Seems at least like the watchdog skeptics at alt.astrology have
somewhat lost their ardour and dedication lately...
At least, with such a system, families and interest groups inside
a newsgroup would be much more clearly obvious to a new visitor.
Combine that with a richer visual experience, and maybe that could
again make a cosy and still free place ?
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Are feelings something that is actually shared between two
(or more) people, or are feelings something that is local
to each involved brain ?
In this post, I would like to present a few thoughts that
hint directly rather at the former, inspired by Kierkegaard,
and with some direct side remarks regarding the lunar nodes,
retrograde Mercury and the Joker in The Dark Knight...
See http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html for some
more context regarding the question above.
I might probably publicly add the following early next year:
* Informally, the subjective impression that memories of very emotional
* events evoke a lot less feelings when the person who shared them is no
* longer emotionally related or even dead, hints subjectively more at a
* direct connection than not, i.e. if you remembered something like that,
* part of the unconscious communication that took place then, would
* actually be _repeated_, not just remembered. See also Kierkegaard's
* _Repetition_ in that respect.
Let me make that a bit more concrete, although maybe a bit
macabre: Suppose you and your most significant other spent
a holiday in, say, Rome, at the beginning of your relation,
say about 10 years ago. Now, whenever you remember that
holiday, it still evokes strong feelings, not quite as
strong as back then, but still strong.
Now, suppose (and that is the macabre part - damn, I guess
this happens when you associate a post with the Joker in
the movie The Dark Knight), suppose that the next morning
your next significant would be dead. If you would then, or
maybe a few days later, imagine the holiday in Rome, would
it still evoke strong feelings or not ?
My guess is that it would not, because what made the feelings
so strong before, was not just local memory in your own brain,
but direct (unconscious telepathic) feedback from your most
significant other. Once that feedback is gone, you can only
remember, but not *repeat* the unconscious exchange that
happened then...
Quoting Kierkegaard (first page of report in "Repetition"):
* Repetition and recollection are the same movement, except in opposite
* directions, for what is recollected has been, is repeated backward,
* whereas genuine repetition is recollected forward. Repetition,
* therefore, if it is possible, makes a person happy, whereas
* recollection makes him unhappy - assuming, of course, that he gives
* himself time to live and does not promptly at birth find an excuse
* to sneak out of life again, for example, that he has forgotten
* something.
and just *before* that:
* Say what you will, this question will play a very important role in
* modern philosophy, for _repetition_ is a crucial expression for what
* "recollection" was to the Greeks. Just as they taught that all
* knowing is a recollection, modern philosophy will teach that all
* life is a repetition.
I agree with Jyeshta that the northern lunar node is in
my observation not clearly more lucky than the the southern
one - as far as transits of the nodes or transits to the
nodes are concerned.
But when it comes to what direction one consciously choses
to take in live, moving towards the northern node seems to
really bring more more happiness.
Now, Kierkegaard had the northern node in Leo. See chart here:
http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/y2Xk3Fj5z27j.htm
He wrote the above about a year after he broke up with his
fiance Regine Olsen on 11 August 1841 (t.sun conj. n.n.node).
He had first met her on 8 May 1837 (t.sun conj. n.sun). See
e.g. Wikipedia for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard
Why did he make that choice or have that destiny ?
Why did he not simply chose repetition, as he writes then
in his work Repetition (just after the quotes above):
* Repetition's love is in truth the only happy love. Like
* recollection's love, it does not ahve the4 restlessness
* of hope, the uneasy adventurousness of discovery, but
* neither does it have the sadness of recollection - it has
* the blissful security of the moment.
Would just living in the moment, enjoying it, more fit with
his natal sun in Taurus, an earth sign, thus in some sense
maybe locked in the present, not in romantic hopes for the
future like his natal n.node ?
Was he destined by the nodes not to get what his sun (self)
would have most directly preferred ?
Very difficult to say. I would associate the opposite
recollection-repetition probably most strongly with the
axis Leo-Aquarius. A bit simplified one could maybe say
that while Aquarius tries to realize an ideal, Leo tends
often more towards idealizing a reality.
So, did the habits from his "past lives" or past lives no
longer have the power to carry through by actually marrying
Regine Olsen and pull things through with her in reality ?
Did he start to feel so unhappy (Wikipedia: "Kierkegaard
soon felt disillusioned and melancholic about the marriage")
because he was moving opposite the stream of destiny in his
life, i.e. towards Aquarius, so that only breaking up could
mend that ? Again, very difficult to say for sure. After all
this happened close to the discovery of Neptune in 1848, i.e.
some of that may have been more illusion than reality ---
or should I say more reflection than repetition ? ;)
About star signs and nodes down under:
When a Western tropical astrologer considers the birth chart
of someone who died 200 years ago, he/she uses (by definition
of "tropical" in that context) a tropical zodiac, i.e. the
spring point is 0 degrees Aries (despite the fact than in
the 200 years since then the actual constellations in the
sky would have moved by almost 3 degrees in that time frame).
But when considering a chart for someone born in Australia,
tropical astrologers use a tropical zodiac in which the spring
point is at 0 Libra ! (Summer and winter are exchanged on the
southern hemisphere relative to the northern one.)
So, which is stronger ? Is someone who is born in the middle
of the southern summer in Australia rather like a Leo (middle
of summer, strictly tropical approach), or rather like an
Aquarius (born in early February, same zodiac as used for
charts on northern hemisphere) ?
Difficult to say, in my limited personal experience, it seems
to me that in the above case, the person would be more like an
Aquarius, but also contain more Leo elements and, due to this
mix (and Leo influence), maybe more elements of ambivalence
and uncertainty than someone with a very similar chart, but
born on the northern hemisphere.
With the nodes the matter is different again. On the southern
hemisphere, what is up and down in the sky is also flipped
with respect to the northern hemisphere. Say the n.node is in
Sagittarius in a normally drawn tropical chart. If I am not
mistaken, the n.node is the node at which the path of the
moon rises above the ecliptic as the moon moves by.
On the southern hemisphere, since up and down are reversed,
the moon does the same at the s.node ! And, if you apply a
strictly tropical zodiac, you would again(!) get an ascending
node in Sagittarius. Two negations that cancel each other out.
Mercury is retrograde pretty exactly 1/5th of the time. It
follows by association that Mercury Rx is related to Leo,
the 5th house, and quintiles, thus to themes like creativity,
talent, luck, and more. It comes thus maybe as no surprise
that one of the most important contracts that have been
made during the past few centuries, namely the American
Declaration of Independence, has a retrograde Mercury.
It is not a contract between subordinate colonies and their
colonizator, instead it is a contract between a number of
free and independent regions or similar strengths.
That such a country would then forget to include a few
important things initially into the constitution (like the
first *amendment*) is in light of that merely a slight
inconvenience.
Without (re-)considering possible situations mentally, would
a pilot be able to find the best solution where and how to
land in a critical situation, an even better one than what
he would have probably been able to find in the manual page
for that case ? No, an independent and free mind does consider
things by itself and makes its own best estimation of a given
situation and about what would be best to do in it...
Actually, while I am at it, in the movie The Dark Knight, it
is the Joker who would fit that best in some sense. The people
who would normally be the heroes considerably lack imagination,
how they react and what they will do in a given situation is
fully determined, that is how the Joker manages to manipulate
them so easily. The town of Chicago was founded with a Sun-Uranus
opposition in Leo and Aquarius (12 Aug 1833, according to
Wikipedia, no source given). The first person to settle there
was sort of an "Obama", a guy called Jean Baptiste Pointe du
Sable, who had a black Haitian mother and a French white
father, who was a pirate, according to Wikipedia.
He established a trade post near Chicago around the time when
the Declaration of Independence was signed (plus minus a few
years, apparently the only the decade is known).
The Joker is maybe a good image of the s.node in Leo, of a
time or destiny where creativity is not fruitful, compared
to the more technologically and logically streamlined
aquarian predictable flow. If you are not sure, ask the
babies in that Belgian creche...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/4329549/Belgium-joker-creche-killer-snorted-with-laughter-in-police-interrogation.html
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Edmond Wollman (arcturianone@earthlink.net) wrote:
: On Feb 4, 2:42 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
:
: > Are feelings something that is actually shared between two
: > (or more) people, or are feelings something that is local
: > to each involved brain ?
:
: A "feeling" is a REaction to a strongly held belief, most likely
: unconscious (e-motion or energy-motion). When two people hold a
: similar strongly held belief, there will be e-motions, as like
: attracts like--or because of the polarity of the beliefs held.
:
: We are born believing. A man bears beliefs as a tree bears apples.
: Ralph Waldo Emerson
Thanks a lot for replying... :)
Reminds me of another quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson,
one that I first saw when Sharyn quoted it in a post
to a.a.t in summer 2003:
* Do you see that kitten chasing so prettily her own tail?
* If you could look with her eyes, you might see her surrounded
* with hundreds of figures performing complex dramas, with
* tragic and comic issues, long conversations, many characters,
* many ups and downs of fate." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reminds a lot of astrology; the sun (cat/Leo) constantly
walking around the zodiac, never getting bored by the
spectacle of planets changing signs and making aspects...
The strange balance between one and two, here between head
and tail of the cat, or between two lovers, or between the
two lunar nodes...
In about 2004 or so, I posted partially playfully, but also
partially earnestly, an idea how one might do science while
avoiding all the really hard problems in which nobody ever
made any progress: Instead of trying to describe the world
in terms of units (like atoms, numbers) and then running
always in circles, why not take something like the lunar
nodes or a Moebius Strip or the path along the number eight
as the basic units/dualities in science ? Something that
contains already all mysteries of the world, so that the
rest around it would always be aware that it does not in
any way make progress regarding fundamental mysteries...
Nothing really sticks to the nodes, because its opposite
always does the same just as much - by definition...
Or something like that... ;)
)o+
: >
: > Thanks
You're welcome! :)
: >
: > Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
: > © 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
: > The SUN http://www.edmondwollmann.com/
: > Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
: > http://home.earthlink.net/~arcturianone/
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Marty (martin.lewicki@gmail.com) wrote:
: To downunder astrologers it's the same as upover astrologers.
: Aries is still Aries etc. The signs do not flip at the equator.
Did you get the impression that I was not aware of how
astrologers down under usually practice astrology ?
Please re-read my post assuming that, of course, I was
aware of that...
You know, if typical astrologers seem to struggle with
rather technical issues and maybe stumble across some
sentences that could be interpreted in two ways (and such
sentences can be found in any text), then I am usually
quite forgiving (see e.g. replies to CFA), but when a
scientist does the same in reply to a scientist... - No way! :)
Once more, please re-read my post again (at least the part
about signs and nodes down under) under the assumption
that I am, of course, aware of how astrologers down under
practice it usually...
While I am at *repeating*, here is the whole post again,
for convenience (one click less, plus "Joker reduced")...
Are feelings something that is actually shared between two
(or more) people, or are feelings something that is local
to each involved brain ?
In this post, I would like to present a few thoughts that
hint directly rather at the former, inspired by Kierkegaard,
and with some direct side remarks regarding the lunar nodes,
retrograde Mercury and the Joker in The Dark Knight...
See http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html for some
more context regarding the question above.
I might probably publicly add the following early next year:
* Informally, the subjective impression that memories of very emotional
* events evoke a lot less feelings when the person who shared them is no
* longer emotionally related or even dead, hints subjectively more at a
* direct connection than not, i.e. if you remembered something like that,
* part of the unconscious communication that took place then, would
* actually be _repeated_, not just remembered. See also Kierkegaard's
* _Repetition_ in that respect.
Let me make that a bit more concrete, although maybe a bit
macabre: Suppose you and your most significant other spent
a holiday in, say, Rome, at the beginning of your relation,
say about 10 years ago. Now, whenever you remember that
holiday, it still evokes strong feelings, not quite as
strong as back then, but still strong.
Now, suppose (and that is the macabre part [...[), suppose
that the next morning your next significant would be dead.
If you would then, or maybe a few days later, imagine the
holiday in Rome, would it still evoke strong feelings ?
My guess is that it would not, because what made the feelings
so strong before, was not just local memory in your own brain,
but direct (unconscious telepathic) feedback from your most
significant other. Once that feedback is gone, you can only
remember, but not *repeat* the unconscious exchange that
happened then...
Quoting Kierkegaard (first page of report in "Repetition"):
* Repetition and recollection are the same movement, except in opposite
* directions, for what is recollected has been, is repeated backward,
* whereas genuine repetition is recollected forward. Repetition,
* therefore, if it is possible, makes a person happy, whereas
* recollection makes him unhappy - assuming, of course, that he gives
* himself time to live and does not promptly at birth find an excuse
* to sneak out of life again, for example, that he has forgotten
* something.
and just *before* that:
* Say what you will, this question will play a very important role in
* modern philosophy, for _repetition_ is a crucial expression for what
* "recollection" was to the Greeks. Just as they taught that all
* knowing is a recollection, modern philosophy will teach that all
* life is a repetition.
I agree with Jyeshta that the northern lunar node is in
my observation not clearly more lucky than the the southern
one - as far as transits of the nodes or transits to the
nodes are concerned.
But when it comes to what direction one consciously choses
to take in live, moving towards the northern node seems to
really bring more more happiness.
Now, Kierkegaard had the northern node in Leo. See chart here:
http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/y2Xk3Fj5z27j.htm
He wrote the above about a year after he broke up with his
fiance Regine Olsen on 11 August 1841 (t.sun conj. n.n.node).
He had first met her on 8 May 1837 (t.sun conj. n.sun). See
e.g. Wikipedia for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard
Why did he make that choice or have that destiny ?
Why did he not simply chose repetition, as he writes then
in his work Repetition (just after the quotes above):
* Repetition's love is in truth the only happy love. Like
* recollection's love, it does not ahve the4 restlessness
* of hope, the uneasy adventurousness of discovery, but
* neither does it have the sadness of recollection - it has
* the blissful security of the moment.
Would just living in the moment, enjoying it, more fit with
his natal sun in Taurus, an earth sign, thus in some sense
maybe locked in the present, not in romantic hopes for the
future like his natal n.node ?
Was he destined by the nodes not to get what his sun (self)
would have most directly preferred ?
Very difficult to say. I would associate the opposite
recollection-repetition probably most strongly with the
axis Leo-Aquarius. A bit simplified one could maybe say
that while Aquarius tries to realize an ideal, Leo tends
often more towards idealizing a reality.
So, did the habits from his "past lives" or past lives no
longer have the power to carry through by actually marrying
Regine Olsen and pull things through with her in reality ?
Did he start to feel so unhappy (Wikipedia: "Kierkegaard
soon felt disillusioned and melancholic about the marriage")
because he was moving opposite the stream of destiny in his
life, i.e. towards Aquarius, so that only breaking up could
mend that ? Again, very difficult to say for sure. After all
this happened close to the discovery of Neptune in 1848, i.e.
some of that may have been more illusion than reality ---
or should I say more reflection than repetition ? ;)
About star signs and nodes down under:
When a Western tropical astrologer considers the birth chart
of someone who died 200 years ago, he/she uses (by definition
of "tropical" in that context) a tropical zodiac, i.e. the
spring point is 0 degrees Aries (despite the fact than in
the 200 years since then the actual constellations in the
sky would have moved by almost 3 degrees in that time frame).
But when considering a chart for someone born in Australia,
tropical astrologers use a tropical zodiac in which the spring
point is at 0 Libra ! (Summer and winter are exchanged on the
southern hemisphere relative to the northern one.)
So, which is stronger ? Is someone who is born in the middle
of the southern summer in Australia rather like a Leo (middle
of summer, strictly tropical approach), or rather like an
Aquarius (born in early February, same zodiac as used for
charts on northern hemisphere) ?
Difficult to say, in my limited personal experience, it seems
to me that in the above case, the person would be more like an
Aquarius, but also contain more Leo elements and, due to this
mix (and Leo influence), maybe more elements of ambivalence
and uncertainty than someone with a very similar chart, but
born on the northern hemisphere.
With the nodes the matter is different again. On the southern
hemisphere, what is up and down in the sky is also flipped
with respect to the northern hemisphere. Say the n.node is in
Sagittarius in a normally drawn tropical chart. If I am not
mistaken, the n.node is the node at which the path of the
moon rises above the ecliptic as the moon moves by.
On the southern hemisphere, since up and down are reversed,
the moon does the same at the s.node ! And, if you apply a
strictly tropical zodiac, you would again(!) get an ascending
node in Sagittarius. Two negations that cancel each other out.
Mercury is retrograde pretty exactly 1/5th of the time. It
follows by association that Mercury Rx is related to Leo,
the 5th house, and quintiles, thus to themes like creativity,
talent, luck, and more. It comes thus maybe as no surprise
that one of the most important contracts that have been
made during the past few centuries, namely the American
Declaration of Independence, has a retrograde Mercury.
It is not a contract between subordinate colonies and their
colonizator, instead it is a contract between a number of
free and independent regions or similar strengths.
That such a country would then forget to include a few
important things initially into the constitution (like the
first *amendment*) is in light of that merely a slight
inconvenience.
Without (re-)considering possible situations mentally, would
a pilot be able to find the best solution where and how to
land in a critical situation, an even better one than what
he would have probably been able to find in the manual page
for that case ? No, an independent and free mind does consider
things by itself and makes its own best estimation of a given
situation and about what would be best to do in it...
Actually, while I am at it, in the movie The Dark Knight, it
is the Joker who would fit that best in some sense. The people
who would normally be the heroes considerably lack imagination,
how they react and what they will do in a given situation is
fully determined, that is how the Joker manages to manipulate
them so easily. The town of Chicago was founded with a Sun-Uranus
opposition in Leo and Aquarius (12 Aug 1833, according to
Wikipedia, no source given). The first person to settle there
was sort of an "Obama", a guy called Jean Baptiste Pointe du
Sable, who had a black Haitian mother and a French white
father, who was a pirate, according to Wikipedia.
He established a trade post near Chicago around the time when
the Declaration of Independence was signed (plus minus a few
years, apparently the only the decade is known).
The Joker is maybe a good image of the s.node in Leo, of a
time or destiny where creativity is not fruitful, compared
to the more technologically and logically streamlined
aquarian predictable flow. [...]
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Hi everybody,
Hereby I officially declare usenet dead, including all its
news groups, with the possible exception of alt.philosophy...
It was fun while it lasted :), but there is a point where
carrying on would be wrong for anyone still breathing or
being able to recognize oneself in a mirror...
So, if you can still perceive this, please stop posting
immediately and for ever -- a Jupiter - n.node conjunction
in Aquarius can never be wrong about such things!
2|
dionysus wrote:
: Hermes wrote:
:
: > With the nodes the matter is different again. On the southern
: > hemisphere, what is up and down in the sky is also flipped
: > with respect to the northern hemisphere.
:
: Yes another Great point here regards the whole issue. In the Southern
: Hemi, Moon passing South Node equates to the Moon passing over into our
: Hemisphere, ie, the opening door, Moon leaving the Hemi is the closing
: door and opportunities/persons leaving.
:
: As such, i assume a simple case study could involve something like a S
: Hemi Gauglin data set. The Manic Delusional category for instance has an
: overwhelming majority of S Node Risings. I wonder if such S Hemi Data
: set would show this to be N Nodes in the S Hemi, ie. near conclusive in
: that the Nodes are truly reversed for S Hemi Charting.
:
: I suspect such is indeed the case.
Very interesting. :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
dionysus wrote:
: > Mercury is retrograde pretty exactly 1/5th of the time. It
: > follows by association that Mercury Rx is related to Leo,
: > the 5th house, and quintiles, thus to themes like creativity,
: > talent, luck, and more. It comes thus maybe as no surprise
: > that one of the most important contracts that have been
: > made during the past few centuries, namely the American
: > Declaration of Independence, has a retrograde Mercury.
:
: What on earth makes you say that?
Maybe my Mercury in Leo ? ;)
See this thread titled "Intuition and the 5th Harmonic" of
Oct/Nov 2004 at aat (that was around the 2004 US elections
and the grand Quintile then) for some more associations that
I make between Mercury and 5 (Hand, Pillars of Islam, etc.):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/browse_thread/thread/f18a2ddbcaff6c48/8d70a784ceabcbe6
Two posts by me then have only been preserved in the following
replies by Larry Swain (who started the thread and is, as he said
in usenet, born a May 5th (5/5) with several quintiles):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/3c4ff5a7fddbc510?dmode=source
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/8d70a784ceabcbe6?dmode=source
: Mercury as far as my system goes rules over trines as the retrogrades
: occur 120degree +- each time,..
: Even then bringing a certain elemental/trine rulership to the years.
Yes, symbolically I would maybe even carry it a bit further,
as follows:
The points in time when Mercury stations each year are about
20 days earlier each year:
(365-20)/3 = 115
365 / 115 = 3.17 = ca. Pi
Hermes helped the 3 Fates to create the Alphabet. In that
sense, Mercury might go somewhat beyond the trines, not
be bound so much by their tendency to make passive and be
incomplete. Liz Greene:
"The undoubted gifts and aptitudes reflected by these planetary
configurations need to be viewed together with the more difficult
dimensions of the horoscope to understand why they are so often
undeveloped [...]"
http://www.astro.com/people/greene_sem01_e.htm
Generally, I do not think that different associations exclude
each other. Some of them can be much stronger in given situations
or even in general, but they also never completely wipe out other
associations that can be made.
: IN the system i am further working on then, Venus Rules the Quintile
: Aspects for her Bi-Quintile retrograde pattern. The too over many years
: certain Quintile positions are struck off.
There is certainly also a strong connection between Venus
and 5 and hence also with quintiles. See also this article
by Nick Kollerstrom "Venus, the Heart and the Rose":
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/venusrose.html
: Mars would obviously be Septiles then.
Interesting, never looked at Mars in detail from that
perspective. The images that Mars plots analoguous to
the "rose of Venus" in the article above is a lot more
chaotic, if I remember correctly.
: This is all rather interesting and whole,
: for Mercury peer groups and the 3 part reproductive system found on many
: beings on this plane, ie, dogs sniff each other out, peer group 3rd/6th
: hse actions.
: Venus and the 5 limbed torso that follows again many creatures and
: plants on this plane.
: Mars for the 7 orificed head that again we find on plenty of the
: creatures on this plane.
:
: I have done much work on 3/5/7 in the past, many beings on this planet
: no matter what shape or size all follow these basic build specs.
:
: A very interesting topic indeed.
Thanks for the replies. :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
[note crosspost]
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
: On Feb 6, 3:31 pm, Marty <martin.lewicky@gmail.com> wrote:
: > On Feb 5, 8:42 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
[...]
: > To downunder astrologers it's the same as upover astrologers.
: > Aries is still Aries etc. The signs do not flip at the equator.
:
: Yes, which shows as Ptolemy stated that the areas of space relative to
: the Earth are more important than stars.
That is technically somewhat imprecise:
Earth relative to what *exactly* was my point... ;)
Let me try to expose my points once more from that angle.
Situation in the *Age of Aries* on the *northern* hemisphere:
* On March 21st at the beginning of spring at sunrise, the
constellation of Aries is rising over the horizon.
* So Earth relative to Sun and the stars was apparently the
rule then.
Situation *today* on the *northern* hemisphere:
* Due to precession of the Earth's axis, on March 21st, at
the beginning of spring at sunrise, the constellation that
is rising over the horizon is now Pisces.
* This suggests for tropical astrology, as it is currently
practiced (and I guess from your reply that you would agree)
that what counts is Earth relative to Sun, but not relative
to the actual constellations visible in the sky. But let me
come back to that in more detail a little later...
Situation *today* on the *southern* hemisphere:
* On March 21st, which is the beginning of *autumn* on the
southern hemisphere, the constellation rising above the
horizon at sunrise is Virgo.
* In tropical astrology as currently practiced on the southern
hemisphere you would still consider someone born then as an
Aries.
* On September 21st, which is the beginning of spring on the
southern hemisphere, the rising constellation at sunrise is
Pisces, i.e. the same situation Earth relative to Sun than
on March 21st on the *northern* hemisphere.
Situation *in about 13'000 years*:
* Due to precession of the Earth's axis, northern and southern
hemisphere will have switched their roles as far as the visual
situations in the sky are concerned.
* On March 21st (north spring, south autumn), the constellation
rising at sunrise will be Virgo.
* On September 21st (north autumn, south spring), it will be
Pisces.
* Assuming that tropical astrology would then still be practiced
as it is practiced today, someone born (say) March 25th would
still be considered an Aries and someone born September 25th
would still be considered a Libra.
This suggests two either/or possibilities:
A: Tropical astrology as it is practiced today correctly describes
how people behave and how events evolve, i.e. August 7th is Leo,
no matter which hemisphere, no matter the relation between Earth
and Sun or constellations.
B: Aries starts with the beginning of spring on the respective
hemisphere, i.e. what counts is the relation of Earth to sun
(but not relative to the constellations in the sky). Someone
born August 7th would be a Leo if born on the northern
hemisphere, but an Aquarius if born on the southern hemisphere.
A bit more sloppily expressed, what counts is the season, i.e.
someone born in the middle of summer (7 Aug north, 5 Feb south)
is a Leo.
Assume A was correct:
* The rules for determining the star sign of a person born at a
given moment are completely artificial, without any connection
to actual events in the sky.
* In particular, since there is no direct connection with the
sun, there is no physical reason why the zodiac should repeat
after one year!
* People born on the southern hemisphere bear the "cross" of
having constantly to go against the current of star signs that
are in many respects quite bluntly related to typical actions
in a rural society on the northern hemisphere:
Assume there was a rural society in Australia and it was early
March, i.e. late summer on the southern hemisphere, time to bring
in the harvest, to sort it and store it. In tropical astrology,
as it is currently practiced, the sun is considered in Pisces,
i.e. people would not feel much like doing lots of repetitive
work, or like planning in detail what to harvest when and how
to store it, etc. Reactions might be more like this:
- "Tomorrow is early enough"
- "Maybe if I wait a little, someone else will do it..."
- (harvesting something) "Hey Bob, ..." (doing something else)
- ...
In a rural society, where survival depended on lots of manual
work at the right time in the season, people on the southern
hemisphere would have less chances to survive, simply because
they would have less provisions for the winter.
* In today's Australia, with more technology available, that does
likely often not matter so much, but could still make people
feel as constantly going against the current. Not astonishingly
the best known Australian astrologer (as far as I know that),
Bernadette Brady, although she also practices tropical astrology,
also spent quite some efforts on doing visual astrology and on
stellar parans, i.e. connecting back directly to the stars as
they are in the sky. And she moved to the northern hemisphere!
Martin Lewicki, does astronomy, see e.g. this smiley formed by
Venus, Jupiter and the Moon:
http://martins-skywalk.blogspot.com/2008/12/venus-jupiter-moon-smiley-face.html
According to tropical astrology as practiced today, Australia
is an Aquarius (and thus also Australians to some degree).
This old-man focus on mind over matter of course helps to
survive in a "seasonally opposite" environment. A good friend
of mine in Switzerland has a grand trine in Air signs, with the
Moon in Aquarius. He travels a lot and never has any problems
with jet lag - as he says, he just tells himself that it is day
now where he is, so that logically he is not tired now...
(Moon as instinctive processes like when to sleep and digests,
all under conscious control with an Aquarius Moon.)
* Astrology would essentially be a cultural phenomenon, mainly
created and maintained (partially consciously, but mostly still
unconsciously) by people living on Earth.
Assume B was correct:
* There would be a consistent physical "reason" for how people
behave, related to seasons, to the relative position in the
seasons, in the relation between Earth and Sun.
* The current way how tropical astrology is practiced on the
southern hemisphere would be just plain wrong, would not then
not correspond to reality.
However, for all that it appears to me, reality is that on the
*SOUTHERN* hemisphere maybe for about 80-90% *A* is correct and
only for about 10-20% B. (Close to 100% A on the n. hemisphere.)
In other words, astrology is a cultural phenomenon, driven by
the collective (and mostly unconscious) wishes and feelings of
people. Possibly the situation on the southern hemisphere is
maybe even *enforced* by a large majority of people living on
the northern hemisphere who simply overpower the wishes on the
southern hemisphere.
That is, of course, just a rough picture of the situation. What
do you do near the equator, where there are no clear seasons ?
Or what at the poles ? And, as said previously, for the nodes,
it is very likely also important to consider that the hemispheres
flip up and down when looking into the sky, i.e. flip ascending
and rising nodes, so that a double flip (seasons+up/down) might
even result in an overall identity...
I hope this post helped somewhat to clarify my reasoning... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Jyeshta wrote:
: >Mercury is retrograde pretty exactly 1/5th of the time. It
: >follows by association that Mercury Rx is related to Leo,
: >the 5th house, and quintiles, thus to themes like creativity,
: >talent, luck, and more.
:
: An interesting theory, but I don't think it holds water.
Yes, thinking is definitely not your strongest attribute.
Makes it very difficult to convey anything but the simplest
things, and that only with lots of effort. Would certainly
be different person to person, where bandwidth is larger,
reactions are automatically more genuine, and response times
are much shorter, but, since in usenet communication is more
Sagittarius than Gemini, to use an astrological analogy, in
the end the most immutable and stubborn minds are the most
likely ones to prevail, not actually winning in the interest
of a reading audience, but prevailing in discourses because,
as in the German proverb, "Der Klugere gibt nach", the more
intelligent one always gives in in the end in usenet. This
simple math of usenet explains also its now objective death.
Since remaining posters *always* exclude the possibility
that such a thing could be true or if it was that it might
be their fault (or even only partially so), I am sure that
it must have been all my fault (as well as the presidency
of Bush 43, the current economic crisis, and most likely I
even drew the 4 Aug 1830 plat of Chicago*). Sorry about all
of that, how stupid of me. I get it all wrong all the time,
wasting all the precious time of you people :) :) :)
* http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cities:_Chicago_IL
)o+
[note crosspost]
Kjell wrote:
: > The reason I made the post, even if I myself do not agree with his
: > idea, is that I synchronously happened upon the article this weekend,
: > when Neptune returned to its discovery position.
:
: Well, that needs correction and clarification.
:
: Neptune did not return to its exact discovery position this weekend,
: it does so a few times this year though. Interestingly, however,
: Jupiter conjoins it three times during this time period, and THAT was
: what happened last weekend -- perhaps leading to a wider scope of
: "responsibilities" for Neptune. I was thinking something like that,
: but cut out too much when trying to explain myself.
:
: Sorry about the confusion.
Galileo spotted Neptune twice in 1612/13 while observing the moons
of Jupiter and even noted Neptune as a dot in his journal, but did
not recognize it as a planet, also because Neptune was practically
stationary the first time, conjunct Jupiter at about 26 Virgo.
Last weekend, it was again Neptune who stationed conjunct Jupiter
(and also conjunct Cheiron) at about 26 Aquarius, i.e. Quincunx.
Would explain at least some of the confusion (Neptune/Quincunx).
There has also been quite a bit of confusion around the official
("conscious") discovery of Neptune in 1846.
I would say Neptune could be seen as at least ruling some aspects
of astrology, at least in our current (relatively aquarian) times,
namely the fact that all attempts prove astrology scientifically
(= rather Uranus) have failed so far, no necessarily because it
would be so hard to do this per se, but maybe also because the
ones who try are often lead "by Neptune" to confusion and many
others chose to look away anyway. Or something like that... ;)
Besides the planets that have been mentioned (Saturn, Uranus,
Neptune, Mercury), what about the Sun ?
See e.g. this drawing which shows the Sun god Apollon standing
in the zodiac wheel:
http://www.astro.com/im/in/apollon_bw.gif
Full article: http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_sungod_e.htm
Exceptional one-time post - until next time there is something
really "big" necessary to announce, I guess (maybe)...
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
[Feel free to quote all or parts of my post, if you like, despite the "X-No-Archive: yes" header]
Hi everybody,
There are two new and relatively long articles on my web site.
Actually I only wrote them this and last weekend, i.e. around
that recent eclipse... ;)
- elementary star signs
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/starsigns.html
"Reveals an interesting structure in the signs of the
western zodiac, of which astonishingly nobody is aware."
- magic carpets
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/magic.html
"How logic and association can be used to creatively explore
symbolic systems, like astrology, in a fairly structured and
controlled way. Presents lots of new cool examples, mostly
related to Western tropical astrology, but the method would
be generally useful and could likely be formalized..."
Enjoy,
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Hi everybody,
Today I plotted some graphs of the average speed of Mercury
and also of Venus and Mars.
Here is the graph for Mercury in units of the average speed
of the sun (which is a bit less than one degree per day):
[Probably best viewed with a fixed size font]
-1.6..-1.4
-1.4..-1.2 *****
-1.2..-1.0 ******
-1.0..-0.8 ********
-0.8..-0.6 ***********
-0.6..-0.4 **************
-0.4..-0.2 ***********
-0.2..+0.0 **********
+0.0..+0.2 **********
+0.2..+0.4 ***********
+0.4..+0.6 ************
+0.6..+0.8 **************
+0.8..+1.0 ****************
+1.0..+1.2 *********************
+1.2..+1.4 *****************************
+1.4..+1.6 ********************************************************
+1.6..+1.8 *********************************************************
+1.8..+2.0 **********************************
+2.0..+2.2 *************************
+2.2..+2.4 ****
+2.4..+2.6
That gives basically about 3 different kinds of people
in terms of Mercury:
Mercury direct and faster than the sun: 63%
Mercury direct and slower than the sun: 18%
Mercury retrograde: 19%
Naively I would expect that people with similar speeds of
Mercury would be able to communicate with each other more
easily than people with completely different speeds.
I, for example, have a quite slow retrograde Mercury; its
speed is about -0.05. Maybe this is why many people seem
hardly to understand what I write, or maybe not... ;)
(In direct conversations that is less a problem, because
then you can quickly ask back etc.)
Anyway, might be worth a closer look to what degree such
different speeds influence the likelihood of a relation.
Do rather same and same go together well or do opposites
attract ?
In that sense, here are also similar charts for Venus and
Mars. There is less diversity, a strong maximum for both,
so couples with strongly different speeds might be rather
rare anyway...
Venus:
-0.8..-0.7
-0.7..-0.6 *
-0.6..-0.5 *
-0.5..-0.4 *
-0.4..-0.3 *
-0.3..-0.2 *
-0.2..-0.1 *
-0.1..+0.0 *
+0.0..+0.1 *
+0.1..+0.2 *
+0.2..+0.3 *
+0.3..+0.4 *
+0.4..+0.5 *
+0.5..+0.6 *
+0.6..+0.7 **
+0.7..+0.8 **
+0.8..+0.9 ***
+0.9..+1.0 ****
+1.0..+1.1 *******
+1.1..+1.2 *****************
+1.2..+1.3
*******************************************************************
+1.3..+1.4
Mars:
-0.5..-0.4
-0.4..-0.3 ***
-0.3..-0.2 ***
-0.2..-0.1 **
-0.1..+0.0 **
+0.0..+0.1 **
+0.1..+0.2 **
+0.2..+0.3 ***
+0.3..+0.4 ****
+0.4..+0.5 ******
+0.5..+0.6 ************
+0.6..+0.7 ***************************************
+0.7..+0.8 **********************************
+0.8..+0.9 ***
+0.9..+1.0
)o+
I found some birth data about Samantha Geimer-Gailey,
the victim in the Polanski case:
http://registry.adoption.com/records/168558.html
There seem to be a few obvious mistakes in how the fields
were filled out, but it appears that she was born Mar 31,
1963 as Tami Sue Nye in York, PA. Furthermore, it looks
very much like her birth mother, Susan Ann Wolfe, released
her for adoption after birth, but about 4 years later,
after having married a John R. Gailey, adopted her herself
and changed her name to Samantha Jane Gailey. (The birth
date of her mother is also indicated at the link above.)
Maybe just an illustration of how in such LA stories
seldom anything is what it seems at first. Don't get me
wrong: Polanski is for all that it appears anything else
than an angel, at least as far as his interest for virgins
is concerned, and it was apparently just this one case in
1977 that could be pinned formally/legally to him, if only
partially, and even that obviously not to full extent...
But in terms of overall justice - if I may be so bold to
bring this up - I am not sure that either convicting him
or not convicting him would make me feel that justice had
been done. If he is not convicted, then he got away with
this and likely quite a few more things in his life, which
is not how it should be. If he is convicted, on the other
hand, many rich and powerful people who, in my personal
opinion, likely abused their power and position to do the
same or even worse, got away with it, and picking out just
one scapegoat does not really restore justice to the world.
Astrologically, I can see many themes related to this story.
There is of course, Pluto in Capricorn, the goat. And Saturn,
goat again, is already at a square to Pluto and will soon
enter Libra, where Saturn is exhalted. Polanski's arrest was
with the sun in early Libra, near the middle of the zodiac
and around the two signs in the zodiac that are maybe mostly
concerned with fidgeting around the theme of justice, namely
Virgo and Libra, the 6th and 7th signs of the zodiac, thus
also related to Jupiter (6th planet) and Saturn (7th).
And there is a lot more that could be considered, like the
Saturn-Uranus opposition in Virgo-Pisces, also in relation
to their conjunction in the 1960s, the Saturn in Aquarius
theme in the birth charts of Polanski and Samantha Geimer,
but also in the discovery chart of America by Columbus, and
hence arguably linked to the US Democratic Party, so UBS
case, the upcoming elections in California next year; the
issue if Justice had been done to Polanski if you look at
all of his life (a very mixed bag overall, in and out of
the movies), the short movie "le gros et le maigre" (the
fat and the thin) by Polanski of 1961 in which he plays the
thin one, a typical scapegoat who eventually fits into his
fate after having experienced the extremes, like in the
mythology around Libra (the movie is available on youtube
and certainly worth a look, it is only 15 min) - or will
his Uranus in Aries once again allow him to escape almost
certain doom by Saturn in Aquarius, like Odysseus ("angry
one") managed to escape from the cave of the cyclope who
was a son of Poseidon/Neptune (currently in Aquarius),
by attaching his crew below sheep and himself below a
huge ram - or is maybe Jupiter in Aquarius rather healing
in this case; when will there be the next big quake in
California (might he even escape by that like one of the
two lovers in Kleist's short story about the earthquake
in Chile because the prison collapsed during the quake) ?
And in what sense exactly does Zurich come into all of
this, maybe due to old links like the constitution of CA
taken (as far as I remember) partially from the one of
Zurich, and direct democratic elements; oh yeah, Virgo,
is of course also a theme, see also Polanski's Venus-
Jupiter conjunction, is the victim's moon maybe between
8 and 9 Cancer (see Sabian Symbols); Durrenmatt's novel
"Justiz" (Judical System) in which a member of the Zurich
Government shoots a doctor in restaurant in plain daylight
with many witnesses, many well-known and respected people,
gets convicted and from prison orders a lawyer to study
the case from an academic perspective under the assumption
that the did not do it - and he gets free(!); and the lion
of Zurich and guarding its lake, how do they come into the
picture ? -- Oh, Wicked Wanda!
Well, at the end when all signs and planets fit to some
degree, only one sign remains, Pisces...
)o+
--
Forget it Jake, it's Usenet.
Hi everybody,
In the following I would like to publish my exposition of the
twelve star signs of the zodiac in terms of a very simple
model that I discovered in winter 2001. The model is a little
bit abstract (I am a physicist), but as it seems, it is
gradually becoming more amenable to astrologers... :)
If you want to read it with the four modest color illustrations,
I recommend to also look at the text on my web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/astro.html
But first some deeper astrological background info:
The idea for the model came to me when the sun was in Aquarius in 2001
and I wrote it down in the following year, which relates it, of
course,
to the Saturn-Pluto cycle (opposition in that case). My idea was
mostly
influenced by Liz Greene's writings of the early 1980s, in particular
_The Astrology of Fate_ (Weiser, 1984), which was hence likely written
under a Saturn-Pluto conjunction. But it does not end there: I would
probably never have gotten involved with astrology, had I not fallen
in
love with a Czech girl in 1982 (conjunction) who was born in March
1965
with a close Saturn-Pluto opposition in Pisces-Virgo. That opposition
of the mid 1960s was also when Liz Greene started to do astrology:
* During the winter break of my third year in university I happened
* to be in Boston, Massachusetts, where I made the acquaintance of
* someone who was interested in astrology and esoteric philosophy.
* At the time I had neither experience nor interest in such things,
* but was preoccupied with confusion about my own direction - whether
* to pursue psychology or a career in scenic and costume design for
* the theatre. I was 'persuaded', unwillingly and with a certain
* resentment, to make a visit to my acquaintance's astrologer - who
* turned out to be Isabel Hickey, then resident in Boston but as yet
* unknown in the larger astrological world.
-- Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate
This rings particularly with me, since the mentioned Czech girl
started
to study medicine in Zurich around 1990, but then studying stage
design
in Prague in the 1990s, which rings particularly with the fact that
both
women have the n.node around 20 Gemini, hence such a duality in
destiny
makes a lot of sense. The mutuable axes are very strong in the charts
of
all 3 women (the 3rd being Isabel Hickey).
Czech woman: March 1965 (sun in Pisces, moon in Aries)
Liz Greene: 4 September 1946 at 13:01, Englewood NJ, 40n54,
73w59*
Isabel Hickey: 19 August 1903 at 12:30, Brookline MA, 42n20, 71w07*
* Source: astrodatabank
Also the moment when Liz Greene met Isabel Hickey, namely the station
of
Jupiter on Liz Greene's Uranus (exact station 15 Feb 1966) has a
strong
emphasis on the mutable axes and, of course, a Saturn-Pluto
opposition.
Liz Greene was born with a (loose) conjunction and, of course, now
today
is a close incoming square.
More could be analyzed, but let me leave it essentially at that.
One more date, namely the finalization of the first document that
describes my elementary model of the star signs (note the nodes!):
discoveries: 5 March 2002 at 00:05, Adliswil, Switzerland
publication: 20 June 2002 at 09:00, Adliswil, Switzerland
-- start --
elementary star signs
Reveals an interesting structure in the signs of the western zodiac,
of
which astonishingly nobody is aware.
Leo and Fire Signs
* But the lion is a stage in a process, as Jung suggests; and it
* is this process or pattern which brings us into the sphere of
* the 'fate' of Leo. It would seem [...] that there is an
* alchemical work to be performed. The Lion is not permitted to
* remain in its bestial form, but must give way to something
* other.
-- Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate
In my model, Leo's transformation mentioned in the above quote is
between elements: earth is turned by fire to air.
[image]
The archetypal image is simply a burning fire that transforms wood
(earth) to smoke (air). More precisely, Aries is a young fire, made
mainly of earth, with not much fire, yet, and almost no air, yet.
Sagittarius, in turn, is an old fire, consisting mainly of air, with
not
much fire remaining and almost no earth left. Leo is in between, a
fire
at its peak, with a lot of fire, and less but mutually about equal
amounts of earth and air.
Astonishingly, this simple model is by far not simplistic.
Let me visit a few themes related to Leo and the fire signs, before
exposing the model in a bit more structured way, while also extending
it
to all signs and elements.
As a primary source for themes and myths, I will use what Liz Greene
associates with star signs in The Astrology of Fate (Weiser, 1984), in
chapter 8, Myth and the Zodiac. Unless otherwise mentioned, quotes
will
be from there.
A central theme in the story of Parsifal, and thus also for Leo, is
the
wound of the fisher king. Young Parsifal first fails to ask the right
question and only after much work manages to heal the king and take
his
place.
In my model, the wound of the fisher king is simply the human body
(earth) that is wounded by the fire of life, as any human body is
doomed
to die one day. Only what is learned in life, can be formulated in
words
(air) and can thus be passed on to later generations, thus becomes
immortal in a way. So there is a transformation from mortal body to
immortal soul, or a transition animal->human/king->god.
This explains why conscious awareness (air) is such an important thing
to learn for Parsifal. The wound of the fisher king is in the lower
part
of his body, afflicting his power to reproduce, thus related to the
more
instinctive and animal-like side of the king (earth).
While the wound of the fisher king can be healed, the wound in a piece
of mythology associated with Sagittarius, cannot: The centaur Cheiron
was accidentally injured by his friend Hercules with a poisoned arrow
in
the lower part of his body. But since Cheiron is immortal, he cannot
die. This fits very well with the model, where the fire has burned
almost down, i.e. the earth (human body) is gone, and only knowledge
and
wisdom remain.
It is also fitting that the wound is inflicted by Hercules, who was
usually wearing a lion's pelt. Cheiron in the end consciously choses
to
trade his immortality for releasing Prometheus from Hades.
Some cookbook attributes of the fire signs: Aries is considered to be
rather secretive, while Sagittarius is known for his openness, and Leo
is likely somewhere in between, sometimes being open and sometimes
not.
This fits with decreasing mortality (less earth). What damage can
others
do to you if most of you has become immortal (air) anyway. Related to
that is also the theme of generosity, which is apparently also
increasing from Aries to Sagittarius, in the model for the same
reason.
The sun god Apollo "is an image of the power of consciousness, vested
in
it by the Self, which breaks the 'curse'". A family curse can be seen
as
rooted in earth, in the tree of ancestors, in physical reproduction.
Transforming this inheritance by fire to consciousness (air) frees one
from the curse, as knowledge and wisdom can be freely transmitted to
anybody, independently of physical relations. Say, if you write a
book,
that book would be made of trees (earth), but if it reaches many
readers, might still transcend its matter by far.
Let me leave it at that for the fire signs for the moment. I will
explore such themes in more detail for each fire sign further below. I
hope you will agree in the end that this simple model is in many
respects a revelation, a marvelous tool for doing astrology, useful
for
beginners as well as for deep and broad explorations of psyche and
life.
There is actually more to this, but let me first expose my model for
the
other signs and elements.
Libra and Air Signs
In my model, air signs are different stages in a transition
fire-air-water. The archetypal image is a cloud (air) which emits both
lightning (fire) and rain (water):
[image]
Gemini is a young thunderstorm, with lots of lightning and thunder,
but
little rain, yet. In contrast, Aquarius is an old thunderstorm, with
essentially only rain left. Libra is in between.
Libra's dilemma of choice is an abstract one: There is no earth
involved
in the above model. So Paris was neither attracted by Hera's offer of
great literal possessions nor by Athene's offer to "make him
victorious
in all his battles", but chose Aphrodite's promise of the love of
Helena. Since Libra is in the middle of a transition fire-air-water,
the
choice usually is the latter, water, thus emotions, love.
There is a strive for clarity in the air signs. Gemini is like a child
in its quick and random motion, like flames or lightning (fire), by
which the child learns to understand the world by looking at
everything
from all possible angles. Take a coin for example. What the eye
literally sees (fire) is just different images, front face, back face,
side view. Only if you combine these images mentally in your head
(air),
does an entity coin, come to be.
Or take Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods to give it to
humanity.
The universal love of Aquarius towards humanity, is like the water in
the rain that rains equally on everybody and when it forms a lake, it
evens out hills and valleys, improving equality among mortals.
So, the evolution is from learning to teaching, from quickness to
constancy, and from many views to a unified one, which is transparent
like water.
Libra's deep insights, probably due to their abstractness and thus
ignorance of the status quo (earth), often lead to turmoil, like in
the
Troyan War or Teiresias' fate: By his answer about a rather literal
question, namely whether women or men have more fun during sex, "Hera
was so exasperated [...] that she struck [him] blind", while Zeus
granted him "inner sight and the ability to understand the prophetic
language of the birds". Not astonishingly, in light of the model, both
gods agreed that his external vision (fire) had to go in order to give
him deeper insights.
Scorpio and Water Signs
In my model, water signs are different stages in a transition
earth-water-air. The archetypal image is a river:
[image]
Cancer is a source and young river emerging from the mountains, maybe
from a glacier (earth), and has not merged with much other waters. As
the water flows down, it merges with more and more rivers and becomes
a
stream: Scorpio. Finally, Pisces is the sea, into which practically
all
rivers flow and from which the water eventually evaporates again
(air).
So, the transition is, like for the fire signs, from earth to air, but
this time caused by a passive, female element. The river that flows
down
to the sea is more fated than fire, since it is passive, it cannot
resist the movement.
Protection is a strong need for Cancer, but since there is a
transition
to water, also the fight for independence from its roots (earth) is an
important theme. "This deeply mystical linking of Cancer with the very
seed and source of life connects it not only with the primordial
Mother,
but with the Father as well [...]". Hera ordered a crab to bite
Hercules
into his ankle while he was fighting the Hydra in the swamps. Both the
crab, who got his place as a constellation for his obedience to Hera,
and Hercules ("glory of Hera") are part of the theme, as is also the
Hydra and the swamps, by the way.
Scorpio is already more open than Cancer, but still suspicious and
somewhat afraid to be hurt. "[...] I can see a great deal of of
Scorpion's daimon, which pulls violently both upwards and downwards
yet
which [...] must confront and ultimately learn to live with that vital
and terrifying image of instinctal life [...]". The conflict between
moving up and down is in the model between earth and air, or between
source and sea, and the way to go is ultimately down, hence conscious
evolution (air) is important.
Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu describes in the famous Autumn Floods
how
a river feels so strong and important and gaining power from the
smaller
rivers that flow into it. When the river arrives at the sea, this all
changes, as the river realizes that size is relative, that he is much
smaller than the sea. Any influences that flow into the river
symbolically broaden the number of different views that one
incorporates, until in the end, in the sea, all opinions and views
occur
with similar magnitude: It has all become relative.
Again, this is, of course, very far from a complete and unbiased
description of the water signs, but, once more, I hope that it has
become clear how useful my elementary model can be for investigating
such themes, even if looking much deeper into the soul than I did
here...
Virgo and Earth Signs
In my model, earth signs are different stages in a transition
fire-earth-water. The archetypal image is a tree:
[image]
Taurus is mainly made of fire, focusses on the directly visible, but
short-lived beauties of the tree, the leaves and flowers that grow
with
the power of the sun (fire). Capricorn is mainly made of water,
restrains himself to the parts of the tree that persist across seasons
and which keep it from falling down, namely trunk and roots, which
feed
it with water and the substances diluted in it.
Virgo is in between, not sure which to chose: Beauty or structure ?
This
solves the riddle that even though Virgo is often depicted as being
very
concerned about order, many Virgos do not keep their lives and homes
in
strict order. It is Virgo for whom order is an issue, for Capricorn it
is a given and for Taurus is not that important, except a bit, as
Taurus
is transforming from fire to earth.
Associated with beauty-order is also living vs. planning. Taurus
enjoys
the moment, but plans little, while Capricorn often keeps both an eye
on
the present and on possible future paths. Virgo is again in between.
The abduction of Persephone by Hades fits the model very well:
Persephone is collecting flowers, looking at the sunny (fire) side of
life, but she is already starting to look down to earth, probably at
least unconsciously starting to wonder about how things work, what
makes
the flowers grow, etc. The ground opens up and Hades abducts her and
makes her his wife, the queen of the underworld.
Hades/Pluto is ruler of Scorpio, the middle water sign, the one made
mainly of water. So, Hades does symbolize the water towards which
Virgo
is evolving in the model.
"Demeter and Persephone form a unity, the paradox of woman as a maiden
and a mother". The tree with its roots symbolizes also the
generational
tree. Literally speaking (earth), what emerges out of a woman's womb
can
be a man or a woman, but men apparently disappear like leaves or fruit
from the tree, while women often bifurcate the tree further if they
have
children. Therefore such identification is a natural (earthy) thing
for
women.
The Model
Let me summarize the model in a table:
element qualities image transition
fire hot+dry fire earth-fire-air
air wet+hot cloud fire-air-water
water cold+wet river earth-water-air
earth dry+cold tree fire-earth-water
The listed qualities are according to Aristotle's views. According to
Aristotle, elements can only transform by changing one of the
qualities.
For example, if you make fire cold, you transform hot+dry to cold+dry,
which is earth. So the elements go in a cycle fire-air-water-earth-
fire.
As you can see, the transitions proposed in my model are all parts of
Aristotle's cycle.
Also interesting is that the transition for each element starts with a
dry element (earth or fire) and ends with a wet one (air or water).
This
can be associated with the older age of star signs later in the
zodiac.
To Aries, for example, a tree is often just a tree, just what the eye
can see (fire). To Sagittarius, in contrast, a tree is often "Maya",
just an illusion (air). It is probably an experience of life that not
everything is what it appears to be at first.
What I only mentioned briefly with Libra and the air signs is that
there
is always one element missing in each transition. Thus, while Libra
lacks realism in judgement, Leo lacks compassion, Scorpio imagination
and Virgo reason (even despite the Mercury ruler).
Where do you go from here ? Read the more detailed explorations of the
12 star signs below and look at the leads, or make your own
investigations, revisit your favorite themes or the ones that you
always
felt that they do not fit completely, and look at them from the point
of
view of the model which has just been presented. There is so much to
explore and I hope and believe that all these considerations will
rather
enhance than reduce the richness of the zodiac.
One more thing should be mentioned: Since apparently nobody has been
aware of this simple structure, at least not in the previous two
thousand years or so, the existence of this structure in what people
say
about star signs, makes it rather unlikely that there is nothing to
astrology, that it would just be the illusion of only a few, or many,
delusional individuals, without any connection to reality.
In fact, such a simple model could, of course, come in very handy when
it comes to proving astrology in quantitative scientific experiments.
What is usually ideal in science, is a simple model that nonetheless
spans the whole space of possibilities, i.e. is simple, but not
simplistic.
* It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is
* to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as
* possible without having to surrender the adequate representation
* of a single datum of experience.
-- Albert Einstein
Myth and the Zodiac
In the following, I will simply revisit all themes and myths that Liz
Greene relates to the star signs in chapter 8, Myth and the Zodiac, of
The Astrology of Fate.
I will compare each theme with my elementary model of the star signs.
Often that will simply mean that I will relate an expression that Liz
Greene uses (or quotes) directly to the corresponding element, using
common associations, like these:
fire energy of life, light, sun, vision, imagination, creativity
air mind, logic, spirit, abstraction, rationality, consciousness
water feelings, love, beauty, fate, collective, unconscious, river
earth physical reality, body, land, mother nature, tree
For example, when Liz Greene relates "sunlit" to Venus' sexuality when
talking about Taurus, I will associate that with the element fire that
Taurus is mainly made of in the model. But let me start the journey...
Aries
In the model, Aries is a young fire, made mainly of earth, with little
fire and air, yet:
[image]
Amun Liz Greene starts by associating Aries with the ram headed
ancient
Egyptian god Amun, mentions that his name means "the hidden one" and
uses attributes like "primeval" and "the force behind the invisible
wind".
Let me start to analyze with "wind", a form of air. Air is part of the
image of a burning fire in two ways: As the smoke that emerges, but
air
is also needed to fuel the fire. Especially when starting a fire one
has
often to blow (wind) quite a bit and also has to protect the fire from
too much wind that might extinguish the small flame.
This associates Aries in the model with wind, and also with the
protection that a young life (fire) needs. Hence Aries' knightly side,
an urge to protect himself and anything weak. With protection often
comes secrecy, reluctance to tell (air) things to others, as a means
to
protect himself and also others. Hence "the hidden one" and the
"invisible" (like air) in the "force" (fire) "behind the invisible
wind"
make sense in terms of the model.
-- end --
It ends here, for the moment. Since I wrote the above in summer 2009,
I have gained quite a bit more clarity about the model (the Saturn-
Pluto square at work, I guess), but it will likely still take a few
more years to write that down in a form that effectively captures
most of the beauty and elementary simplicy of the model...
It is, of course, quite fantastic that Liz Greene managed intuitively
to capture some essential traits like nobody before her, without that
I would not have been able to discover my model. All in all, if you
compare my chart
me: 7 August 1966 at 04:12, Zurich, Switzerland
I do not really fit the mutuable square stuff that much, my connection
to the Czech woman is more due to the moons, the almost exact sun-sun
quincunx and the Taurus-Virgo axis. In that sense, I am I guess more
the messenger or maybe with sun in Leo (and Mars there now) maybe also
a little bit able to "break the curse" to give this a better direction
by not publishing yet in full color and only to stake the claim here,
and to wait a little longer for the model to grow. You got to be aware
that a model of the star sign that is simple enough to be proven in
quantitative experiments would change the conscious perception of the
world enormously, so one better be as carefully prepared as
possible...
Anyway, I hope I could at least tease a little with this ;)
)o+
don hindenach wrote:
: these things fade in and fade out, so no/sorta/kinda/maybe.
:
: ain't nothin' goes "click" in astrology except the time of
: exact aspect (I've heard that click, and it's pretty
: interesting, but is just a sound).
Yeah, the exact moment when things "really happen" is still
very much a mystery, I guess. I imagine _aspects_ a bit like
this: A car is at rest in a soft valley and the aspect is
starting push the accelerator. The car will accelerate but
will only be able to exit the valley if the aspect it strong
*and* long enough to give the car enough energy to climb up
the hill. Another idea that I am toying around with is that
maybe a contact with nodes (lunar and maybe also planetary)
is necessary for something to happen. If you regard the
nodes as sort of valves or gates through which energy can
flow. The german astrologer Thomas Ring said the following
about aspects to the lunar nodes:
* No [...] it is not a force. It is only accepting - and can
* of course also be inhibited, or influenced [...] but it does
* not produce an aspect. Do you understand? - it does not put
* any force against. You are so to speak defenselessly at the
* mercy of it [...].
-- http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK23.htm
(translated from German to English by me)
In that sense, who/what would cause the nodes to open up and
let the energy flow ? When would they open and when not ?
One example: 9/11. Mars had been in Sagittarius for a very
long time and entered Capricorn shortly before 9/11. The
moment when something "really happened" was when Mars had
come into contact with the nodes (conjunction with s.node,
a pretty bad thing in terms of traditional astrology),
but again not at the exact moment of conjunction.
)o+
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Google's machine-translation of the German page: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK23.htm&ei=B9H1SuSxO8_4-Qae06D6DQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK23.htm%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENSE346%26sa%3DG%26num%3D30
Kjell wrote:
: Welcome to altastrologymoderated.info.
:
: The website is now finished, please check it out. If you have ideas
or
: suggestions, or meet problems in accessing the site, please let me
: know.
:
: http://www.altastrologymoderated.info/
:
: /Kjell
:
: (Solar Return Nov. 7 2009, birthday, as always, Nov. 8)
Happy 11th birthday to a.a.m !
And also happy (slightly delayed) first birthday to Uranica.com
- if you go by the date the domain was registered - 7 Nov 2008 !
I particularly liked the astro-specialized searches (books and
uranica.com), which I would symbolically maybe relate mostly to
Pluto in Capricorn (the creation of minimal structures on top
of an associative search engine approach (more Pluto in Sag.)),
and, of course, the Regulus/heart logo... :)
I guess many beautiful things are at the moment in sort of a
"Dornröschenschlaf" (the sleep of Sleeping Beauty); related
maybe mostly to Uranus in Pisces, with the largest part of the
constellation standing for the "mother", the horizontal fish;
in my model of the star signs the water that must flow down
and mix universally like in the sea, before it can rise again
into the air; the vertical fish, the "son/redeemer" in the
last degrees of the constellation. (See Liz Greene in "The
Astrology of Fate" for the ancient mythological background or
also how Robert Hand relates the constellation of Pisces to
events in the Age of Pisces in his 1982 "Essays on Astrology"
(Schiffer Publishing), in the latter case in reverse order
since Ages come in reverse order, i.e. the "son" until about
the 4th century CE when the "word" (air) of Christian Religion
was settled, and then for most of the Age the "mother"...
)o+
I wrote:
: [...] the Regulus/heart logo... :)
About a day or so later, I heard something on TV
about "The Little Prince" by Antoine de St. Exupery,
namely the following quote:
French:
* Adieu, dit le renard. Voici mon secret. Il est
* tres simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur.
* L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
English:
* Goodbye, said the fox. Here's my secret; it's
* very simple: we see well only with the heart.
* The essential is invisible to the eyes.
I then went to amazon.fr because I had never read The
Little Prince, and ordered a copy and afterwards
amazon usually shows related books and one caught my
attention, because it had the title "Regulus" and as
I could see in the small cover image it had apparently
practically the same cover as The Little Prince. So
I clicked on it and it turned out that it was a Latin(!)
translation of The Little Prince, since "regulus" is
apparently latin for "little king" or "little prince".
Saint Exupery, this apparently so tough war pilot with
Mars at the MC, see chart here,
http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/z7HKbvy4mg52.htm
who also wrote one of the most read children's books
in the world, and has an unaspected retrograde Venus
in Cancer, has no planets near Regulus in his chart.
But his wife, Consuelo Suncin Sandoval de Gomez (* 10
April 1901), has aspects to his Venus in synastry:
from Mercury in Pisces (trine), n.node in Scorpio
(trine), and also sun (square) and Saturn, and has at
least Mars around 23 Leo losely conjunct Regulus, and
he was born in Lyon (=Lion) in France.
That shows also why it is difficult to prove astrology
in a formal scientific way. One way of looking at it
would be to label my "virtual journey" simply as
_selective perception_: Because I had read here about
Regulus, that word caught my attention at amazon.fr.
And I only visited amazon.fr maybe because I have the
sun in Leo and have a fox as the animal on my own web
site (c.f. quote on top). But then again that does not
at all capture the magic and the subtle connections
between such things, since Regulus is also the heart
of the lion, as also in "we see well only with the
heart" and is hence not expressible in terms of words
or numbers, as also in this quote by Heraclitus about
sun god Apollon:
* The lord whose oracle is in Delphi neither speaks
* nor conceals, but indicates / gives a sign.
-- Source: The Weeping Philosopher, Conrad H. Roth
http://vunex.blogspot.com/2008/08/weeping-philosopher.html
"And if scholars love the oracle, so they love Heraclitus
on the oracle even more. Heraclitus, quoted in Plutarch,
writes, '[see link below for greek original text]' (H93).
The lord whose oracle is in Delphi neither legei nor
kryptei, but semainei. You see I have not translated the
key words. Legei is usually 'speaks', kryptei 'conceals',
and semainei 'indicates' or 'gives a sign'."
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different.
Thanks a lot for the reply. :)
: One thing puzzled me.
: > Aries is considered to be rather secretive...
:
: Who says that? I always thought Aries would tell
: his life story to a brick wall.
After googling around a bit, it appears that the answer
to "Who says that?" would be "Almost only me."...
I think a similar statement about Aries can still be
plausibly derived from common perceptions about Aries
and also in the model, but I would like to get it right,
so in the meantime just a few more informal hints here:
- To be first out with something really, really new,
you have first to keep it secret (see how Apple Inc.
usually announces new products, * April 1st, 1977,
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0000927.htm).
- "Hidden" or "secret" is likely a better adjective
than "secretive", as it does not imply any kind of
"fuss" on the side of the individual nor that the
secrecy would be typically visible to outsiders.
(A good friend of mine, who has the sun in Aries got
secretly married while on holidays and even arranged
for the announcement to be sent by mail to friends
and relatives so that they arrived right on the day
they got married.)
- Liz Greene in "The Astrology of Fate":
* The Ram was known to the Egyptians as the primeval god
* Ammon or Amun, whose name means 'the hidden one'. This
* antique ram-headed deity was said to be the force behind
* the invisible wind. The was also called 'he who abides
* in all things', and was imagined as the soul of all
* earthly phenomena.
(She also relates the god of the Ancient Testament to Amun
and Aries, hence Jews would be more Arien than people of
other religons, which shows maybe most clearly in science
where a great majority of really new discoveries and ideas
has been first put forth by people coming from a Jewish
background - again, you have to be able to keep a secret;
on a darker note, things like Nazi propaganda of a
"world-wide Jewish conspiracy" could maybe also be seen
from that angle.)
- Finally, I have the moon in Aries conjunct the MC ;)
A B wrote:
: This is really clever. I've only read it quickly, but I'll have
another
: look at it when I have time. It's interesting that several of the
sign
: symbols really do have a flavour of the element suggested by Hermes'
theory,
: as well as their own.
: For instance, by Hermes' theory, Sagittarius should be air as well
as fire.
: Its symbol is a Centaur with a bow. Nothing aerial about that, but
its
: glyph is a flying arrow, and its associated house is high in the
sky. In a
: couple of mundane charts I did, the ninth house seemed to mean just
"high in
: the sky", although I don't know what other people think about this.
I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
up vertically into the sky.
: Capricorn should be water as well as earth. The Goat is
traditionally drawn
: as a sort of mermaid, with the tail of a fish, or dolphin, or sea-
serpent,
: depending who you ask. Hence the wriggly bit in its glyph.
: Aquarius should be water as well as air. I daresay we've all
wondered why a
: Water-Bearer should be an air sign at all! Hermes' theory goes some
way to
: explaining it.
To be fair towards more conventional explanations, I should
mention that Aristotle (and in his line William Lilly and many
others) associate the seasons with elements as follows:
- spring: air
- summer: fire
- autumn: earth
- winter: water
I appears that winters were quite rainy in the times
and places where astrology emerged...
: One thing puzzled me.
: > Aries is considered to be rather secretive...
:
: Who says that? I always thought Aries would tell his life story to
a brick
: wall.
:
: Can anybody work out where the Quadruplicities/Qualities
: (cardinal/fixed/mutable) might fit into all this?
I think a priori the qualities are an independent structure
from my model, but I feel they also fit often quite well
with the model and in other instances seem to be at least
relatively neutral in relation.
Here is a possible partial fit:
In my definition of the elements (see section "elementary
philosophy" on my web site), water and fire _move_ while
earth and air _rest_ (this is a different concept from
_active_ vs. _passive_, e.g. water flows down passively,
but fire rises up actively; more on my web site).
In three of the four cardinal signs there is a transition
between a resting to a moving element, which fits with the
notion that cardinal signs start new things, hence they
create motion:
Aries: earth (rests passively) => fire (moves actively)
Cancer: earth (rests passively) => water (moves passively)
Capricorn: earth (rests passively) => water (moves passively)
Libra does not fit in well (fire-air-water), but at least
has the freedom to get moving in two ways (fire or water),
which fits in another way very will with Libra.
But mathematically, this is of course not a perfect fit,
since Virgo is also a resting element between the same
two moving ones, or Aquarius is an air-water transition.
Still, the notion of a Virgo somewhat lost between too
many options and Aquarius striving for progress, for
things to move again and again, seem to fit quite well.
Or something like that... :)
: Many thanks to Hermes for a thought-provoking article.
You are welcome. :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
To all people posting or reading here who also speak German:
There is currently a CfV (Call for Votes) to establish
a *moderated* German speaking usenet newsgroup about
astrology, namely
de.etc.astrologie
to complement the existing (unmoderated) newsgroup
de.alt.astrologie.
Here is a link to the CfV, which includes the charter
and details how to vote by e-mail*:
http://groups.google.com/group/de.admin.news.groups/msg/505847d75ce9eeee
Voting ends December 12th, 2009. For more details around
the vote, see current discussions at de.admin.news.groups
and at de.alt.astrologie.
(I am not involved with the creation of the group, except
that I already voted and posted my opinion... ;)
* It appears that some people had problems to send their
votes to the e-mail address indicated in the CfV, so
a secondary address has been indicated here:
http://groups.google.com/group/de.admin.news.groups/msg/c78d1eb0b70f49b4
(I suspect that due to this, possibly a second CfV
might have to be made for formal reasons, and hence
maybe votes might even have to be resubmitted then.)
The unmoderated group, de.alt.astrologie, was proposed
December 6th, 1993 at 19:39 CET in Dortmund (Germany)
and established January 5th, 1994 at 18:14:54 UTC in
Tuebingen (Germany):
http://www.astrologix.de/daa-ref/daa-faq.htm#Frage01
Looks like the moderated news group - if enough YES
votes come it - might be heading also towards also
something with the sun in Capricorn ?
The (first) CfV for de.etc.astrologie was posted
November 19th, 2009, at 9.34 AM CET. Note e.g. Mars
in the CfV on the AC of de.alt.astrologie in Leo...
)o+
--
PS: Maybe also related to Mars in Leo: Today I bought
C.G. Jung's "red book" or "new book" (liber novus),
which he wrote privately between about 1914 and 1930
and, after spending the previous 25 years or so in a
vault in a Swiss bank, has recently been published.
I am generally not that much a fan of the tone and
style in Jung's academic work, but I find this book
really fantastic so far - both Jung's original text
and illustrations and the text set in a modern (but
modest) format. So if you have the chance to take a
look at it in a library, I can only recommend to do
so. (It is most likely too expensive to buy unseen
at US$ 115 - even though the German edition I bought
cost me almost twice as much and I don't really
have a book shelf onto which a book with such a
large format would fit... :)
Todd Carnes:
: I finally got my download page working again. The following ebooks
are
: currently available for download from http://carnesoft.net ...
Good to hear that they are back, there are some real
jewels in there :)
Thanks also for the link to freeconsiderations.com,
I also find the free book by Ken Gillman there quite
interesting, at least I find it a bit sad that, as it
says there, "The content of this book is apparently
too distant from the popular mainstream for commercial
publishers to accept". Well, maybe not so far in the
future commercial publishers might be _begging_ for
anyone to use their services for publishing instead
of just doing it by themselves ;)
(Quite concretely: Maybe electronic books could be
sold or (given away for free) by any writer in the
near future via Apple's iTunes store (or similar ones)
- rumors are thickening that Apple is readying a
device somewhat bigger than an iPhone, an "iTablet"
or so, sometime in 2010, which would likely as maybe
its "killer application" target to replace many
paper publications - books, journals, newspapers.)
)o+
Todd Carnes wrote:
: Have you ever checked out Lulu.com?
OK, I see, goes already almost all the way... :)
I think I have associated lulu.com so far mostly with
Klaudio Zic, who posts regularly to alt.astrology about
an astrology related directly to constellations, and
has some books at lulu.com, which are arguably a bit
"extraordinary", http://lulu.com/astrology. (According
to "whois" information, the domain lulu.com has been
registered August 9th, 1995.)
)o+
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day of
: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international friends
: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
:
: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
:
: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the chapter
: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
:
: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's seminar
: on Saturn.
:
: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area. It
: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an eternity,
: while John sort of hung around...
:
: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That was
: Saturn."
:
: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn, too.
: :-)
Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
since 2004).
The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
agressively...
I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
archer (<=> Sagittarius) that I mentioned recently:
: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: up vertically into the sky.
I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
are doing has no effect, do something else".
Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
bond between each other.
You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
an article for a British journal related to psychological
astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.
Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
rationally expected way...
)o+
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: It's interesting that new, moderated, usenet astrology groups
: seem to follow a pattern of hard Saturn Pluto transits.
Yes, I noticed, too. Maybe not something that would
be good for a long life of the group. While the transit
lasts, it might feel necessary and work, but once the
world has moved on, maybe most people would not much
want to still "go" to such a place with a hard aspect
and prefer a less "stressful" environment again...
)o+
--
My new Google profile (more pictures to come ;):
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:56:05 -0600, Hermes
: <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
:
: >whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >
: >: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day of
: >: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: >: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international friends
: >: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: >: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
: >:
: >: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: >: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
: >:
: >: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: >: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: >: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the chapter
: >: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
: >:
: >: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's seminar
: >: on Saturn.
: >:
: >: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area. It
: >: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an eternity,
: >: while John sort of hung around...
: >:
: >: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That was
: >: Saturn."
: >:
: >: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: >: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn, too.
: >: :-)
: >
: >Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
: >Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
: >sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
: >many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
: >since 2004).
: >
: >The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
: >so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
: >two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
: >rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
: >at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
: >a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
: >the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
: >a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
: >store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
: >Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
: >agressively...
:
: Perhaps a Mars hour had also begun. :-)
I have checked what day the seminar was:
Saturday 18 March 2000
Liz Greene, Zurich: Jupiter: Con Artist or Giver of Gifts?
-- http://www.astro.com/people/greene_sem00_e.htm
That morning, the sun was still at 28 Pisces, so my memory
must have been wrong. Maybe that observation on the freeway
was two days later (but the sun entered Aries already at
about 8 AM then, i.e. too early for me to have been driving
in the direction I remember), or even another year...
Maybe in 2001: Sun into Aries Tuesday, 20 March at 1:56 PM,
sunrise (sun at AC) at 06:34 AM, so the second Mars hour at
1:34 PM might have been correlated with that ???
: >I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
: >in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
: >way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
: >archer (<=> Sagittarius) that I mentioned recently:
: >
: >
: >: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: >: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: >: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: >: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: >: up vertically into the sky.
: >
: >I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
: >had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
: >are doing has no effect, do something else".
: >
: >Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
: >running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
: >not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
: >beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
: >my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
: >immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
: >on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
: >Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
: >is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
: >bond between each other.
:
: That's interesting. I was under the impression (mistakenly?)
: that the Swiss spoke either German, Italian, or French, depending
: upon the region closest to each of those countries?
Yes, that's basically true (there is also a fourth language
that a small group speaks, a roman language similar to Italian
and French). My native tongue is basically a German dialect.
People from the very south of Germany can understand me when
I speak in my native tongue. There is a big cultural difference,
though, in the way language is used between most parts of
Switzerland and most parts of Germany. German culture can in
my impression be much more be mapped to eloquent sentences and
is thus in many respects directly visible in written language,
while in "Swiss" a lot more is lost in my impression by simply
transcribing the spoken words. (There are also practically no
books in Swiss dialects, almost all Swiss literature is in
"high German".) I hope that clarifies things a little bit.
: >You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
: >an article for a British journal related to psychological
: >astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
: >posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
: >past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
: >for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
: >spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.
: >
: >Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
: >letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
: >also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
: >in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
: >The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
: >a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
: >also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
: >Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
: >sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
: >lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
: >rationally expected way...
:
: I just looked at your Google profile. It is impressive, and you
: are very handsome! I'm going to look at your chart.
Thanks!
: Probably unlike you, I am extremely rooted in determinism now
: (and since the past several years). I recently made a new
: discovery, concerning astrology and numbers, which would provide
: a new way of predicting good and bad years in an earthly entity's
: existence. The problem is that an astrologer would have to be
: able to judge the condition of the luminaries and planets in the
: classical way, and those who practice modern astrology (the
: majority, still) would be unable to do that.
I think as a scientist I also have a very precise and
deterministic side, maybe expressed by the close trine
between Mercury at the AC and Saturn. (I guess Saturn-
Mercury aspects are not uncommon for scientists).
I imagine one part of how my mind works often a bit like
this: The conjunction of Venus-Mars-Jupiter in Cancer in
the 12th produces many ideas, which are then already tested
by Neptune/s.node in Scorpio at a close trine and also via
less close trine to Saturn at the end of Pisces, to make it
out to spoken/written word via close trine to Mercury at the
end of the 12th and in early Leo conjunct the AC. (Mercury
is otherwise not really aspected by anything in my chart,
just semisquares to Ura-Plu, if you count these.)
What I like about traditional methods in astrology is that
they are specific; they could be tested experimentally and
would allow to be verified or falsified with much more
certainty than most modern concepts.
: At the moment, I have abandoned the idea of presenting what I've
: discovered.
I would like to hear about it when the time is right.
When I first published my ideas in 2002, I would have
never thought that it would take 7 years(!) until about
two people would to say "hey, there might be something
to this". Maybe I am just to impatient... :(
(So far nobody is saying, "hey this is the maybe one
of the greatest discoveries in astrology of the 21st
century", as I personally would like to hear ;), but
maybe in seven more years or so... :)
Or maybe it is just Uranus in Pisces that makes current
times a bit "medieval" in the sense that people do not
so much want to know how things "work" analytically like
it was with Galileo and the Church etc. in the past. In
that sense, "uranian spring" might be only something like
1-2 years away, but I have a very lousy track records
with regard to predictions... (Maybe I should really take
a heart and take a deeper look into traditional methods.)
)o+
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:53:36 -0600, Hermes
: <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
:
: >whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >
: >: On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:56:05 -0600, Hermes
: >: <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
: >:
: >: >whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >: >
: >: >: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day
of
: >: >: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: >: >: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international
friends
: >: >: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: >: >: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
: >: >:
: >: >: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: >: >: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
: >: >:
: >: >: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: >: >: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: >: >: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the
chapter
: >: >: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
: >: >:
: >: >: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's
seminar
: >: >: on Saturn.
: >: >:
: >: >: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area.
It
: >: >: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an
eternity,
: >: >: while John sort of hung around...
: >: >:
: >: >: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That
was
: >: >: Saturn."
: >: >:
: >: >: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: >: >: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn,
too.
: >: >: :-)
: >: >
: >: >Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
: >: >Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
: >: >sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
: >: >many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
: >: >since 2004).
: >: >
: >: >The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
: >: >so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
: >: >two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
: >: >rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
: >: >at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
: >: >a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
: >: >the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
: >: >a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
: >: >store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
: >: >Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
: >: >agressively...
: >:
: >: Perhaps a Mars hour had also begun. :-)
: >
: >
: >I have checked what day the seminar was:
: >
: > Saturday 18 March 2000
: > Liz Greene, Zurich: Jupiter: Con Artist or Giver of Gifts?
: > -- http://www.astro.com/people/greene_sem00_e.htm
: >
: >That morning, the sun was still at 28 Pisces, so my memory
: >must have been wrong. Maybe that observation on the freeway
: >was two days later (but the sun entered Aries already at
: >about 8 AM then, i.e. too early for me to have been driving
: >in the direction I remember), or even another year...
: >
: >Maybe in 2001: Sun into Aries Tuesday, 20 March at 1:56 PM,
: >sunrise (sun at AC) at 06:34 AM, so the second Mars hour at
: >1:34 PM might have been correlated with that ???
:
: It would be easy to find out - all we need are the geographical
: coordinates. Sounds about right, though, since at the vernal
: equinox (for the northern hemisphere) the hours are about equally
: divided throughout the day and night.
:
: >: >I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
: >: >in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
: >: >way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
: >: >archer (<=> Sagittarius) that I mentioned recently:
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: >: >: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: >: >: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: >: >: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: >: >: up vertically into the sky.
: >: >
: >: >I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
: >: >had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
: >: >are doing has no effect, do something else".
: >: >
: >: >Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
: >: >running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
: >: >not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
: >: >beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
: >: >my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
: >: >immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
: >: >on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
: >: >Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
: >: >is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
: >: >bond between each other.
: >:
: >: That's interesting. I was under the impression (mistakenly?)
: >: that the Swiss spoke either German, Italian, or French, depending
: >: upon the region closest to each of those countries?
: >
: >Yes, that's basically true (there is also a fourth language
: >that a small group speaks, a roman language similar to Italian
: >and French). My native tongue is basically a German dialect.
: >People from the very south of Germany can understand me when
: >I speak in my native tongue. There is a big cultural difference,
: >though, in the way language is used between most parts of
: >Switzerland and most parts of Germany. German culture can in
: >my impression be much more be mapped to eloquent sentences and
: >is thus in many respects directly visible in written language,
: >while in "Swiss" a lot more is lost in my impression by simply
: >transcribing the spoken words. (There are also practically no
: >books in Swiss dialects, almost all Swiss literature is in
: >"high German".) I hope that clarifies things a little bit.
:
: Yes, thanks. Language interests me, because a given language can
: reflect so much about the culture of the population who speak it.
: (Much like a chart of a nation, or group, etc.) I remember a
: conversation I had with a former business associate who was
: natively from Iran. She told me that in her native language,
: there was no word for a particular thing (I forgot what) - not an
: item, but a word for a particular state of being. I thought that
: was fascinating and, at the time, gave me an insight into that
: culture I otherwise never would have had.
:
: (And I guess I no longer have that insight, since I forgot what
: the word was - but I know, at least, that language has a great
: deal to do with describing a culture.)
I remember from a Russian language course that I would sometimes
watch on Austrian TV when I was a kid, that in Russian the word
for "red" also means "beautiful", like in "Red Square". I am not
sure if that came with communism, but I suspect the roots might
be older...
: >: >You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
: >: >an article for a British journal related to psychological
: >: >astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
: >: >posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
: >: >past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
: >: >for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
: >: >spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.
: >: >
: >: >Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
: >: >letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
: >: >also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
: >: >in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
: >: >The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
: >: >a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
: >: >also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
: >: >Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
: >: >sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
: >: >lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
: >: >rationally expected way...
: >:
: >: I just looked at your Google profile. It is impressive, and you
: >: are very handsome! I'm going to look at your chart.
: >
: >
: >Thanks!
:
: :-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Took me a long time to get
to be able to write relatively fluidly, though. In school, I
usually had great trouble to write a composition in time. Then
for a long time, I was mainly good at expressing things minimally
and precisely, like in scientific publications - I guess that
evolution would most likely be related to the Mer-Sat trine...
: >: Probably unlike you, I am extremely rooted in determinism now
: >: (and since the past several years). I recently made a new
: >: discovery, concerning astrology and numbers, which would provide
: >: a new way of predicting good and bad years in an earthly entity's
: >: existence. The problem is that an astrologer would have to be
: >: able to judge the condition of the luminaries and planets in the
: >: classical way, and those who practice modern astrology (the
: >: majority, still) would be unable to do that.
: >
: >
: >I think as a scientist I also have a very precise and
: >deterministic side, maybe expressed by the close trine
: >between Mercury at the AC and Saturn. (I guess Saturn-
: >Mercury aspects are not uncommon for scientists).
:
: Yes, I agree. What is the source of your birth time? Family
: record? Hospital record?
Birth certificate. The source of the time must be from
the hospital in which I was born. That should in general
make it about as reliable as it can normally get. During
that time in Switzerland, hospital personal would almost
certainly have been Swiss and typically quite concerned
to do things right, if only for the sole reason of doing
things right and with precision.
No second independent confirmation of the birth time, and
I did unfortunately not yet carry a watch then...
: >I imagine one part of how my mind works often a bit like
: >this: The conjunction of Venus-Mars-Jupiter in Cancer in
: >the 12th produces many ideas, which are then already tested
: >by Neptune/s.node in Scorpio at a close trine and also via
: >less close trine to Saturn at the end of Pisces, to make it
: >out to spoken/written word via close trine to Mercury at the
: >end of the 12th and in early Leo conjunct the AC. (Mercury
: >is otherwise not really aspected by anything in my chart,
: >just semisquares to Ura-Plu, if you count these.)
: >
: >What I like about traditional methods in astrology is that
: >they are specific; they could be tested experimentally and
: >would allow to be verified or falsified with much more
: >certainty than most modern concepts.
:
: Yes, they follow rules and formulae.
:
: >: At the moment, I have abandoned the idea of presenting what I've
: >: discovered.
: >
: >I would like to hear about it when the time is right.
:
: It seems to me that many of us are better off without it,
: especially as we age. The worry and/or apprehension is not
: healthy for anyone who is strongly rooted in determinism. I feel
: it would do more harm than good. We could say that about many
: things in astrology, though.
:
: >When I first published my ideas in 2002, I would have
: >never thought that it would take 7 years(!) until about
: >two people would to say "hey, there might be something
: >to this". Maybe I am just to impatient... :(
:
: :-)
:
: >(So far nobody is saying, "hey this is the maybe one
: >of the greatest discoveries in astrology of the 21st
: >century", as I personally would like to hear ;), but
: >maybe in seven more years or so... :)
:
: :-)
:
: >Or maybe it is just Uranus in Pisces that makes current
: >times a bit "medieval" in the sense that people do not
: >so much want to know how things "work" analytically like
: >it was with Galileo and the Church etc. in the past. In
: >that sense, "uranian spring" might be only something like
: >1-2 years away, but I have a very lousy track records
: >with regard to predictions... (Maybe I should really take
: >a heart and take a deeper look into traditional methods.)
:
: Understanding a chart in great depth usually results in more
: accurate prediction. Don't feel bad - it took me over 10 years
: before I was able to do even slightly well with prediction, and
: that was when I was still using only modern methods of chart
: reading. I did improve, still using modern methods, but now my
: way of seeing a chart is much different from the modern eye. It
: took me a very long time (over 25 years?) to learn how extremely
: intricate any given chart is with classical methodology[1],
: because I had been so rooted in modern-mainstream astrology.
:
: [1] Not that I am an expert now, by any means! There is so much
: to learn, it is humbling.
I know what you mean. On the other hand, if I look back in
history, I am almost always happy that people like Galileo
in the end eventually decided to make their discoveries public,
despite the ambivalent and hence partially even harmful effect
on the world views of their contemporaries. Then again, who
knows what discoveries have been made in the course of time
and have never been made public ?
A fate like Aristarchos of Samos is maybe in a way ideal in
this respect: He correctly realized that the earth is circling
the sun, but was ignored in his time, in favor of a geocentric
world view that fits much better with the principle of "as
above so below", because the planets move more interestingly
(different speeds, sometimes retrograde), whereas in a
heliocentric model those movements are rather dull and hence
would seem to reflect events down on earth less likely.
Thanks a lot for the replies :)
)o+
Kjell wrote:
: Now and then the topic of whether the birth or the conception is
most
: determining (astrologically). I was thinking of this and come to
think
: of twins from the same egg. Obviously, both of them were conceived
at
: the same time, as the egg becomes two embryos first after being
: conceived.
:
: The differences in the twin pair should then (again, astrologically)
: be all due to the difference in birth time.
:
: I get this to mean that the conception time is very important in
: predicting the body of a person, but that for actual life
: circumstances, the birth time is of greater importance.
:
: Would you agree with this? Further thoughts?
I am not sure if the conclusion can be drawn. Monozygotic
twins are often quite similar in many respects and often
have very similar birth charts - so what is alike for both
twins could a priori have come from the moment of birth
and/or conception.
What is different can in that sense not have come from the
moment of conception - there I agree.
On the other hand, I am not sure if an identical placement
for a planet in two birth (or conception) charts would
necessarily lead to the same properties. Maybe the drive in
twins to separate into distinguishable individuals could
create something like "spontaneous symmetry breaking",
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_symmetry_breaking
But this is quite speculative. Here are some specifics about
two monozygotic twins (properties according to their mother):
Common: Pisces AC, Sagittarius MC, sun in Taurus
A: younger, righthanded, "rational, practical",
Mercury in 3rd, n.node in 1st
B: older, lefthanded, "intuitive, artistic",
Mercury in 2nd, n.node in 12th (rest in same houses)
In that sense, maybe slight differences in the birth charts
of twins are more emphasisized than would be for someone
born (without a twin) with either chart ?
)o+
I wrote:
: two monozygotic twins (properties according to their mother):
:
: Common: Pisces AC, Sagittarius MC, sun in Taurus
: A: younger, righthanded, "rational, practical",
: Mercury in 3rd, n.node in 1st
: B: older, lefthanded, "intuitive, artistic",
: Mercury in 2nd, n.node in 12th (rest in same houses)
Correction: A was born earlier than B; so A is older than B.
)o+
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote
: On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:44:09 -0600, Hermes
: <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
: >whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
:
: [quite a lot snipped for brevity, not for rudeness]
:
: >: :-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.
:
: >Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Took me a long time to get
: >to be able to write relatively fluidly, though. In school, I
: >usually had great trouble to write a composition in time. Then
: >for a long time, I was mainly good at expressing things minimally
: >and precisely, like in scientific publications - I guess that
: >evolution would most likely be related to the Mer-Sat trine...
:
: I think, in part, if I remember correctly, you would have been in
: your Saturn Firdaria for much of that time. So, the minimalism
: of Saturn would have been more prominent.
:
: Now, I think you have a way of writing much like I have. Not in
: terms of style or content, but in terms of the actual process of
: writing allowing thoughts to become much more fluid via use of
: the hands - whether writing in a notebook, or typing on a
: computer (for me, I think best when I'm writing with pen and
: paper).
:
: You and I both share an Rx Mercury, and an Rx Saturn, which I
: find interesting, but my Mercury and Saturn are not in aspect.
:
: Writing requires both Mercury and the Moon - which is why (for
: chart reasons) you and I seem both to unfold our thoughts better
: during the writing process. I notice that your writing has a
: very associative quality, which I attribute to your
: multi-aspected Moon. To speak even more modernly for a moment,
: it is in a yod with Pluto and Neptune - I see so much of that in
: your writing. It is a sort of free-associative flow which pulls
: in quite a lot of hidden essence.
:
: This is why I, like so many, find your writing quite fascinating,
: even when I don't fully agree with the content.
Thanks a lot :)
Yes, school was during my Saturn Firdaria. Also interesting
to see that I am now in my s.node Firdaria until my next
birthday in August 2010. So, I guess if I survive until then
(I had some health problems lately, but they might turn out
to be less severe than they appeared at first - knocking on
wood), things might become a little easier with ten years
of sun Firdaria coming afterwards...
Reminds me also of something I read in Chuang Tzu (Taoist
Chinese philosopher/book) yesterday or the day before, about
a king who had lost a "magic pearl" and tried to find it by
first sending "cognition", then "sharp eye", then "thinking"
to find it, but only after he sent "forgetfulness of self",
he found it again. (I have translated these terms as directly
as possible from Richard Wilhelm's tranlation from Chinese
to German, which is in some aspects still unique.)
German astrologer Thomas Ring related the nodes in astrology
to things coming up into consciousness and sinking back to
unconsciousness (sun and moon), so maybe "forgetfulness of
self" might be a good approach (at least in a modern view)
for s.node Firdaria ? Or maybe something like that...
Actually, after looking it up, Thomas Ring apparently put it
just the opposite way:
http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK23.htm
Google's automatic translation to English:
http://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro.com%2Fring%2FTHRSem74%2FGrundkursus%2FGK23.htm&sl=de&tl=en
Then again, in the same seminar he said that Kepler introduced
the quincunx to astrology, when he probably meant the quintile,
so maybe he inadvertedly swapped things here, too, something I
guess Sagittarians seem to do often (often with great luck) ?
http://www.astro.com/im/ring_chart.gif
Thanks again,
)o+
[snipped rest of quoted post, also just for brevity]
--
PS: I mentioned Jung's "red book" recently. According to
Jung's own account, the "beginning of the end" of writing
this book privately came in 1928 when he came into contact
with the work of Richard Wilhelm.
A B wrote:
: Another quick comment on Hermes' system.
:
: > Scorpio is already more open than Cancer, but still suspicious and
: > somewhat afraid to be hurt. "[...] I can see a great deal of of
: > Scorpion's daimon, which pulls violently both upwards and
downwards
: > yet which [...] must confront and ultimately learn to live with
that vital
: > and terrifying image of instinctal life [...]". The conflict
between
: > moving up and down is in the model between earth and air, or
between
: > source and sea, and the way to go is ultimately down, hence
conscious
: > evolution (air) is important.
:
: The scorpion is an earth-element creature if ever there was one. It
lives
: under a stone and, like its (possible) relative the spider, can't
bear
: water. Yet the sign Scorpio is a water sign. But there is a lesser-
known
: symbol of Scorpio. When it is "perfected", alchemy-style, Scorpio
is
: represented by an eagle.
:
: "In the Euphrates Valley, where it probably originated, the sign
represented
: a monster, half scorpion, half man. The human half belonged to the
upper
: regions, the animal half to the underworld, Hades. Later, the Eagle
: corresponded to this upper region, representing the power within
man,
: through the Scorpio function, to rise above the temptations of his
earthly
: nature." - Jeff Mayo, "Teach Yourself Astrology".
:
: So there you are. Scorpio, essentially a water sign, begins as an
: earthbound scorpion, and finally rises into the air as an eagle.
Did Hermes
: see the thread I started a while back, "How do YOU interpret Pluto?"
:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/16da5e82f3876e34%3Fhl%3Den%23&usg=AFQjCNHZJu3Tv3VlrA_VyOdC1LlMbLzCcg
: It ties in rather nicely with his system.
No, I did not see that thread then. I also wanted to reply
to two of your recent posts, but probably won't find the
time until next weekend (or maybe even the one after that),
but I did read your recent posts. Thanks! :)
One quick comment about scorpions: It appears that their
ancestors lived in the sea (but unlike crabs, left the water
for good, millions of years ago), even though not all is clear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion#Fossil_record
While I am at it, a.a.mod is a Scorpio:
http://readystump.algebra.com/~aam/Creation.txt
)o+
A B wrote:
: I'm wrestling with another mundane chart at the moment, and have
hit
: something I don't seem to have come across before.
: I'd like your opinions on what astrological factors might indicate
the
: opening or revealing of something that had been shut up for a long
time.
: Nothing metaphorical here, just quite literally opening something
(an
: underground chamber, to be precise) to reveal the hidden contents.
The more
: explanation you give, the better pleased I'll be!
: Also, does anyone have any views on what might represent seeing
something?
Kjell mentioned Pluto, the god of the underworld who's name
apparently means "wealth" in the sense of the treasures that
can be found below the surface.
If Pluto is not directly exposed, maybe Orcus (2004DW),
the Kuiper belt object discovered in 2004 at around 24 Leo
or siderally at the end of Cancer. Nick Antony Fiorenza
describes the sideral view in one of the most beautiful
astrological passages I know:
http://www.lunarplanner.com/asteroids-dwarfplanets/Orcus-Pluto.html
Scroll towards the end, to the passage that starts with
"At the time of discovery, Orcus was retrograde (from
Earth's perspective) in the last few degrees of sidereal
Cancer".
Let me just quote what he writes about Subra:
* Subra, marking the end of sidereal Cancer, is the paw
* of the Lion impressed in the desert sand. Subra is of
* prints, tracks, plans, codices and ancient maps--clues
* to hidden trails and paths obscured by the sands of time.
* Subra indicates a discovery process is at hand, one
* leading to the secret chambers, entryways, even to
* liftoff sites of the gods--places hidden from ordinary
* view. Simply, Subra asks that we dig, uncover, and find
* the way to navigate the passage of our Heart’s true desire.
But the the following passages should not be missed
either, at least in my romantic eye...
A good friend of mine has Jupiter in Leo, and he is very
good at finding things in nature, mushrooms in the woods
and crystals in the mountains, way better than me.
: I know Hermes associates sight with fire signs.
See magic carpets post (esp. part 1).
)o+
Hi everybody,
In the following, I would like to present a way of looking
at different methods in astrology in general, based on
association, or - if you like - on affinity of similarity.
It has a similar effect of valuing various approaches in
their own right as maybe Liz Greene's article of 2008:
How We View Life is How We Read Charts
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lifeview_e.htm
In that sense, please note that I do not hang all that
much on to the particular associations that I present
below. I developed these during the past 10 years and
I am still not convinced how strong or "good" most of
them really are, even though I think they often make
good "food for thought"!
No, the general principle is more dear to me, also in the
sense of contributing to a _bridge_ between all different
ways of doing astrology, and I hope that sometime in the
future I might be able to present it in a better way... :)
Since the following article, which I wrote and rewrote
several times this summer, is quite long I have chosen
to split it up into two part - make sure, you read at
least the introductory stuff in part 1 first!
The full article is also in the second part of
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/astro.html
on my web site, with a couple of illustrations.
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
--- START PART 2 ---
Psyche's Tasks
The famous four tasks posed by goddess Venus to beautiful mortal
Psyche (see leads) are maybe best associated with the four
elements as follows:
1st task sort seeds earth
2nd task collect fleece water
3rd task get water from Styx fire
4th task get ointment from underworld air
Her first task consists of sorting a huge pile of different
seeds into individual piles. Ants come to her help and sort the
seeds. For the second task, she has to collect fleece from
fierce rams that live near a river. She manages to do so by
waiting until night when the rams are asleep and collects fleece
that have stuck to thorny bushes. The third task is to fill a
goblet with water from the river Styx, the river that gods swear
by. This is very difficult, as the river is circular and
surrounded by steep, sharp rocks and guarded by monsters. Zeus
sends an eagle who flies down to the river from above and fills
the goblet. The fourth task is the most complex one: Get a box
of ointments from Proserpina, queen of the underworld. By
sticking to a detailed plan, Psyche also succeeds at that.
The associations with Psyche herself are clear: She is the
personification of the human psyche. Her tasks symbolize thus
different tasks that life poses to the mind.
The assignment of elements I propose fits very well with two
things. For one, the order is about the natural order of
elements in terms of height. Water is always above some piece of
land, and so on. Maybe not a perfect fit, but most likely the
order earth-water-fire-air is the most natural one in that
sense. What fits extremely well, though, is the tasks in
relation to my elementary model of the star signs. Let me just
look more closely at one task here.
The third task, for example, is solved by overview, by mentally
rising into the air into which fire signs are transforming, and
it is also made clear that the "grail" (goblet) itself, in terms
of its matter, the earth that fire signs are coming from, is not
important; what counts is its contents, a bit of eternity
symbolized by the water from the Styx. Also water, because that
is the element not present in the transformation of the fire
signs in my model.
Angles and Seasons
Let me map my cycle of the elements as applied to day and year
to corresponding astrological concepts:
1 fire ascendent (AC) spring signs
2 air medium coeli (MC) summer signs
3 water descendent (DC) autumn signs
4 earth immum coeli (IC) winter signs
The ascendent is typically associated with the outer visual
appearance of a person, with what you can immediately see, hence
fire. In contrast, the medium coeli, the zenith, is often
considered to be related to the public image of a person, to how
you are perceived by people who do not know you in person. At
least in the past, before television, a public image was
typically conveyed by what you said and what you wrote. Hence
the MC is more abstract than the AC, and, of course, this fits
well with the element air.
Astrological Quaternity
Numbering of star signs, houses and aspects is obvious, but for
planets that is less clear. I would like to present a numbering
of planets here that has some interesting features in relation
to the natural order of the others and in relation to what has
been associated with numbers and elements so far, even though
not all parts of it fit equally well:
house aspect star sign planet
1 conjunction Aries Sun
2 opposition Taurus Moon
3 trine Gemini Venus
4 square Cancer Mars
5 quintile Leo Mercury
6 sextile Virgo Jupiter
7 septile Libra Saturn
8 semi-square Scorpio Uranus
9 novile Sagittarius Neptune
10 decile Capricorn (Pluto)
11 undecile Aquarius
12 semi-sextile Pisces
Typically, on astrological charts, Mercury is at 3, Venus at 4
and Mars at 5. The usual order is thus first sun and moon, the
big ones as seen in the sky, then planets in order of their
apparent speed in the sky. Plus there are other links of planets
to signs, like by rulership or exaltation.
The order listed above, however, has some very interesting
properties if you look at the whole table. Take the number
three, for example. Trines are usually considered to be
harmonic, but also passive. The harmony and the passivity in the
sense of letting maybe others do things for you, fit well with
the goddess of love, Venus. Liz Greene considers the passivity
of trines even fated, which fits with the element water
(collective wishes) and with Venus.
Squares are perceived as disharmonic, as disruptive, as forcing
to act, and also as stiff, as either staying as they are or
breaking. This fits quite well with the dry and thus hard
element earth, with the god of war, Mars, and it reminds of
Cancer's mentioned theme of how to be cardinal...
Related to the numbers 3 and 4 is also the idea that "the fourth
is different". The number 3 is just a bit smaller than π =
3.141..., the number that links the diameter of a circle to its
circumference, with the circle often symbolizing perfect
harmony. Since 3 is a bit smaller than that, it is quite
harmonic, but also incomplete. The number 4 breaks the harmony,
but contains also about 1/7 of what is needed to make the circle
complete.
Planet Mercury is on average retrograde during about one 5th of
the time. And its association with transformation is close to
the fifth element. Quintiles are often related to creativity and
talent, themes also prominent for Leo and the fifth house, and
so on.
(I found this order of planets a few years ago with an internet
search and on that site it said that this had been the order
commonly used in the past, but I could not find this site again
afterwards, nor any other source that would use this order, Thus
I am not sure if what that site said is true. As a meta
association, this fits five and Mercury, like a glove. Gloves
are for hands, which have 5 fingers, and hands are in astrology
commonly associated with the star sign Gemini, which is ruled by
Mercury, etc.)
The fit for these three planets is not perfect, though.
Especially Gemini-3 seems not to fit well. Gemini is ruled by
Mercury, who helped the fates to create the alphabet. Fate comes
from fatum, spoken. Hence language and communication have a
fated angle, too, but I have never seen someone associate Gemini
with harmony.
Of course, a lot more associations could be made from these
three numbers alone, not to speak of the others. Let me just
mention something with regard to the numbers 8 and 9, before
moving on. Neptune rules the sea (water), and Uranus is an
earthy Titan in mythology, married to his mother Gaia ('Earth'),
even though there is some ambivalence with regard to the other
element in both gods.
But there is also another concept from astrology that can be
linked to 8 and 9. Before the discoveries of Uranus and Neptune,
the only other 'object' besides the seven planets that was shown
in birth charts was typically the lunar nodes, the points where
the apparent path of the moon crosses the ecliptic (and they
still appear on almost every chart drawn today). So, it makes
sense to place them after Saturn, at positions 8 and 9. This
association suggests a strong correlation between 8 and 9,
stronger than, say, between 9 and 10, which fits also well with
the Chinese associations I made previously.
Hercules and Houses
Direct associations with astrological houses are twofold. They
lead to the word "house" and to its number. Hence one would
expect also meanings of houses to reflect that. However, since
my personal experience with astrological houses is limited, let
me just present a few teasers here.
A house is a neutral arena of life, which we furnish according
to the nature of our own substance. Manilius described a
horoscopic house as a templum, and this ancient term can be
helpful in understanding what the houses mean. Templum is also
the word for a temple, which in Manilius' time was an empty
building or designated sacred area, devoid of numinosity until
the cult statue of the god was placed within. -- Liz Greene, The
Astrological Neptune (Weiser, 2000)
As Robert Graves writes in The Greek Myths, Roman conquerors
even went so far as stealing cult statues from Greek temples and
bringing them home. Some languages use different words for
astrological houses. In German, for example, also "Feld" (field)
is common. But astrological houses seem always to be a place, a
piece of earth, plus something more abstract, like air, that can
be there or not, like if there was a planet (god) in the house
(temple) at birth.
This relates houses maybe most strongly to the element earth.
Air is the missing element in my model of the transformations
between elements, the element opposite of earth in my and also
in Aristotle's cycle of the elements.
Hercules' name means "glory of Hera". Greek goddess Hera
corresponds to Roman Juno, who gave her name to the month of
June, in which Cancer, the fourth sign is born. The word labor
is also related to child birth, which is a strong theme for Hera
and Cancer in mythology. So, maybe not too unlikely, Hercules'
labors are not only for Hera's glory, but also closely related
to houses.
Hercules' fifth labor consists of cleaning the stables of
Augeias within a single day. The solution invokes numbers in
sequence: First comes the idea (fire, 1); then, with the advice
and help of two people, Hercules breaches the walls of the
stable on opposite sides (2); then he redirects two rivers into
a single one (3=2+1) and lets it flow through the stable; the
water washes out the dung (earth, 4) and completes the labor.
Transformation of elements (5).
Other labors fit quite well, too, even though their order is not
universal in all versions of the myth.
Maybe houses are a bit like levels in a video game. Maybe they
require the ones within to solve some tasks in order to be able
to move on to the next level, at least when planets transit
houses. Or maybe not, just teasing, with both a joking and a
serious eye, though...
Mirrored Opposites
Opposite signs in the zodiac, Aries-Libra, Taurus-Scorpio, etc.,
are considered to be in many ways different in opposite ways.
For example, Leo egoistic, but Aquarius altruistic, and Virgo
analytic, but Pisces synthetic. Oppositions are often also
viewed in astrology to involve the psychological projection of
one's own inner issues onto an outer person or situation.
Oppositions are always between fire-air or earth-water, thus
always between a wet and a dry element. Since I relate wet/dry
to in/out under elementary philosophy, the following idea
emerges:
What if opposite signs in the zodiac are to some degree mutual
mirror images with respect to in/out ?
Let me explain what exactly I mean: Virgo's approach towards
outer reality is typically seen as analyzing and sorting it,
while Pisces is often seen as reluctant to touch anything, to
just let it go its natural path. But likely that outer pair
Virgo-order and Pisces-chaos is reflected inside by Virgo-chaos
and Pisces-order. As soon as you start to analyze, your head
quickly fills up with lots of details, hence inside, at least at
first, disorder increases. Conversely, there is a great clarity
of mind in Pisces, as has been noted, for example, by Liz Greene
in Star Signs for Lovers, likely because Pisces avoids to try to
sort things out. Whatever Pisces encounters in life is often
quickly filled into a virtual "bin" in the head. That is why
Pisces gets bored so quickly. The different minds of Pisces and
Virgo likely also show in their approach to drugs. To Pisces,
drugs can often be a welcome escape from dull clarity, while
more mental chaos is often the last thing Virgo would want.
Adaptive Astrology
Assume, for example, you are supposed to analyze the birth chart
of someone born in 1980 in Germany. The individual is German,
has German ancestors, relatives and friends. Which house system
would you use ? The one you always use or the most common one in
Germany, hence likely the Koch house system in this case ?
Let me first generalize a bit before I attempt to answer that
question. First of all, different house systems may not
necessarily be exclusive. The reality of what a person feels may
just as well be a superposition of different house systems, in
accordance with the principle of association.
A German in Germany who knows essentially only Germans is bound
by that environment, in time and place. Casting a chart using
methods from the Renaissance, for example, would likely not
mirror the forces on the individual that well. However, at no
time in history is everything conscious, so some existing
influences and themes may be easier to see when using a
different system.
Most people usually only contact astrologers (if ever) when they
are deeply stuck in a situation, desperate to get out of it.
This brings in the general element of expanding the frame,
initiated by the individual. Since the individual has made that
first step, probably the astrologer should not adapt too much,
in order to be better able to see a solution beyond the frame.
That said, in this specific case, a look at the chart at least
also using Koch houses would still seem to be a good idea.
Extending the idea, should one maybe use different methods when
analyzing the chart of a Capricorn than the chart of a Libra,
for example ? Maybe. Possibly such adaptive methods that derive
from simple principles would even be necessary in order to be
able to formally prove astrology in scientific experiments. Or
maybe not.
Formal Association
In order to answer questions like the previous one, a formal
scientific method for doing association that is generally
accepted would be ideal...
The principles of association seem quite simple, so that likely
computers could easily be taught to apply them a trillion times,
or more. Actually, what contemporary internet search engines are
doing, is mainly based on association. You find web sites first
that contain most of your search terms as closely together as
possible. In fact, I often use search engines to explore
symbolic themes. The hints I get from a search lead me then to
further search terms and eventually themes start to emerge.
Astrologically, all of this is likely quite a bit related to
Sagittarius and Pluto's passage through it between about 1997
and 2008. British astrologer Charles Harvey actually predicted
this, also in light of Uranus and Neptune in Aquarius, though
not in its full global magnitude, in Anima Mundi (CPA Press,
2002). The matrix of associations is perpendicular to the
generational tree (Virgo), like a top view on a tree, or a
bottom view at its roots.
Follow the white rabbit. -- The Matrix (1999)
--- END PART 2 ---
Hi everybody,
In the following, I would like to present a way of looking
at different methods in astrology in general, based on
association, or - if you like - on affinity of similarity.
It has a similar effect of valuing various approaches in
their own right as maybe Liz Greene's article of 2008:
How We View Life is How We Read Charts
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lifeview_e.htm
In that sense, please note that I do not hang all that
much on to the particular associations that I present
below. I developed these during the past 10 years and
I am still not convinced how strong or "good" most of
them really are, even though I think they often make
good "food for thought"!
No, the general principle is more dear to me, also in the
sense of contributing to a _bridge_ between all different
ways of doing astrology, and I hope that sometime in the
future I might be able to present it in a better way... :)
Since the following article, which I wrote and rewrote
several times this summer, is quite long I have chosen
to split it up into two part - make sure, you read at
least the introductory stuff in part 1 first!
The full article is also in the second part of
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/astro.html
on my web site, with a couple of illustrations.
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
-- START PART 1 --
magic carpets
How logic and association can be used to creatively explore
symbolic systems, like astrology, in a fairly structured and
controlled way. Presents lots of new cool examples, mostly
related to Western tropical astrology, but the method would be
generally useful and could likely be formalized...
Association and Logic
Here are a few associations with the star sign Cancer:
[image]
Cancer is the latin word for crab, which leads to the hard shell
(but soft inside) of the animal, the "house" that some crabs are
carrying around for protection, the water and sea it lives in or
nearby, and from sea you get to tides and to sun and moon which
cause tides; Cancer also leads to the moon as the astrological
planet who rules Cancer, and, because Cancer is the fourth star
sign of the zodiac, to the fourth astrological house, which is
often related to mother and father, who are generally associated
with moon and sun, respectively.
These few paths reveal already several themes related to Cancer.
A theme is essentially just a word or a group of words that is
relatively close to the starting point (Cancer in this example)
and to which several independent paths lead. Protection would be
a theme, since you can get there from house and shell. Or water,
because Cancer is a water sign and the animal lives in or near
water. And, maybe a bit astonishingly to some astrologers at
first sight, sun starts to emerge also as a theme for Cancer.
Liz Greene recognizes the sun theme for Cancer in The Astrology
of Fate (Weiser, 1984). In ancient Egypt, the star sign Cancer
was a beetle and it was "equated with the creator god Atum, a
form of the sun god because the beetle pushes its dung-ball
before it as Atum pushes the solar ball across the sky". And a
bit later: "The cusp of the fourth house [...] has long been
associated with the end of life; here it is also imagined as the
beginning, for this is the point of the sun at midnight when the
old day dies and the new day is born [...] This deeply mystical
linking of Cancer with the very seed of life connects it not
only with the primordial mother, but with the Father as well
[...]".
In the following, I will typically not dwell in such detail on
every association I make. That would make this text very long
and usually deviate from the point. Specific themes are explored
in more detail in other parts of this web site, see elementary
star signs and reflectivity.
Let me start abstracting from the previous example.
Association is based on similarities between some kind of
entities. Such entities always have names and the similarities
are the attributes of these names. Hence, you can do association
based entirely on language as a cultural mirror of the world and
its history. In other words, the associations with Cancer above
are just a very tiny fragment of a universal web of all
associations between all words in all languages and including
also all other symbols.
Language has grown over millennia, so it contains not only
present knowledge and conceptions about the world, but also very
ancient know-how or superstitions - in any case many things that
contemporary individuals are often not aware of. But more
related to that later.
Association does not make any absolute statements. Every word
can be associated with every word, it is just so that the path
between words can be very long. Hence every word is a theme in
relation to every word - to some degree. In particular, both a
word and its opposite(s) are always a theme to some degree. For
example, Cancer is a cardinal sign, thus often eager to start
something, but since Cancer is also a water sign and water is a
passive element, there is also reluctance in Cancer. So it
cannot be said that generally Cancer is either eager or
reluctant, only that this represents a theme, an issue for
Cancer and that it will depend on more precise circumstances
which will show more. Often for Cancer reluctant phases in which
symbolically water pressure builds up within the shell will be
followed by outbursts, like a geyser, sometimes gently,
sometimes maybe explosively, revolutionary.
In logical thinking opposites strictly exclude each other. If A
is true and B follows from A, then the opposite of B does not
follow from A. However, it should be mentioned that this only
works as long as there is no self-reference. For example, both
"this sentence has five words" and "this sentence has not five
words" are true. So, questions like "Am I eager or reluctant?"
might not be resolvable by logic alone. It should be noted that
associatively, opposites can still practically exclude each
other: If there are more and shorter paths to one opposite than
to the other.
People who are using logic often make the mistake of forgetting
the 'if A then' part of 'if A then B'. B is only true under the
precondition of A, if your perception of preconditions is false,
then B may or may not be true. That is often a main reason for
misunderstandings between men and women, like this: Max has a
certain preconception of what he is talking about with Joanne,
but then Joanne says something that "does not compute",
something apparently completely illogical or in direct
contradiction to Max's preconceptions. After a bit more
conversation, Max starts to realize that Joanne had
associatively expanded the frame, even without being consciously
fully aware of it. In light of the broader picture, Joanne's
previous statement suddenly makes sense, also from a purely
logical point of view.
Logic is even more limited in a sense than that: As Gödel has
shown, in some (closed) logical systems, there are always
logical statements that may be true or may be false, but whether
they are true or not cannot be proven within the system, but
only in a larger system. In that sense, associatively broadening
the frame can even provide additional insights back into the
original frame.
Let me get back to language as a cultural and historical mirror
of the world. There is just one huge web of associations, which
includes all words in all languages and other symbols. This web
reminds strongly of the fabric of fate, which the three fates
are weaving in Greek mythology.
Not too directly, though. What the fates are weaving is the
strands of life of individuals, while the web of associations is
rather a top view onto that generational tree, which shows still
some laws of fate. The life strands of people are mirrored by
the etymology of words, by their evolution and changes over
time.
In any case, the web of associations contains not only conscious
knowledge about the world, but taps also into the reservoir of
the collective unconscious, even and maybe even particularly in
cases where association seems to contradict contemporary
science.
That is so because scientific theories are essentially logic
based on observed reality. If preconditions change due to new
experimental data, also the logical consequences of science can
change. Such additional knowledge about reality, a broader
frame, may already be subliminally present in the current web of
associations, hence looking into associations may also provide
interesting clues for future science.
Or in other words, in analogy to the previous example, generally
Max stands for science and pure consciousness, while Joanne
represents associative and often partially unconscious
approaches, including also astrology.
Let me leave it at that and present a few of my favorite
associations, many related to western astrology, but some also
related to association itself. Many of them will help to form a
simple toolbox that I will then apply to various topics in the
reflectivity section.
Note that - obviously in light of what has been said so far -
none of these ideas is intended to be exclusive with already
existing common associations. Many of them are simpler
approaches to associations that are already widely recognized.
Others are just minor complementary views, which can maybe help
to complete a theme or might only be suitable in specific
situations. Often I will quickly mention corresponding
mainstream associations, too.
Elementary Cycles
I like to arrange the elements in a cycle, like this:
[image]
The cycle starts with fire, culminates with air, flows down with
water, rests with earth, and finally starts again. This fits
well with the notion from the elementary philosophy section that
fire and water move, while air and earth rest. The motion is up
for the light element fire and down for the heavy element water.
Air rests actively high up, while earth rests passively low
down.
1 fire moves light --> moves up
2 air rests light --> rests up
3 water moves heavy --> moves down
4 earth rests heavy --> rests down
So the cycle suggests 1-fire, 2-air, 3-water, 4-earth, and,
since it is a cycle, the number five is in a way again a bit
like fire, but a reborn fire with more experience, because it
has already seen all elements and transformations of the cycle.
This fits associatively quite well with general perceptions of
the fifth element and also with the definition I gave in the
elementary philosophy section, in which I defined the fifth
element as the transformations between the first four.
Day and Year
The general cycle can be associated with any specific cycles you
fancy, like, for example, day and year:
1 fire sunrise/morning spring (equinox)
2 air noon/afternoon summer (solstice)
3 water sunset/evening autumn (equinox)
4 earth midnight/night winter (solstice)
I will make a few relatively astonishing astrological
associations from there a bit later.
For the moment note that Aristotle suggests a different
assignment of elements to seasons:
spring air wet --> dry
summer fire hot --> cold
autumn earth dry --> wet
winter water cold --> hot
The idea is that in spring, as it gets warmer, the air dries out
and thus becomes fire, which gets colder towards autumn,
becoming earth, which then becomes wet towards winter, water,
and so on. Aristotle's model fits quite well with some star
signs, especially with the ones of winter. For Pisces and
Aquarius the connection to water is obvious, whereas for
Capricorn one has to be aware that he is often depicted as a
goatfish, a mythological creature with a fish tail and the upper
body of a goat.
Needless to say, I hope, that Aristotle's views and mine are not
mutually exclusive, they simply superimpose by association. In
that sense, let me also mention that it is not uncommon to
associate each season with the cardinal star sign that starts
it, i.e. spring-Aries-fire, summer-Cancer-water,
autumn-Libra-air and winter-Capricorn-earth.
Elementary Levels
Let me add this to the picture:
1 fire individual imagination
2 air logical consequences
3 water collective wishes
4 earth physical reality
5 ether transcending reality
The basic idea in this table is that there are different aspects
of the world with different strengths. Logic beats individual
ideas of how the world might be. Collective wishes can beat
logic by expanding the frame of preconditions, but only within
the limits of physical reality. All cultures place some things
above physical reality, things like philosophy and religion,
etc.
This simple image will be the key to many hopefully interesting
ideas in the following, a bit like magic.
The four elements are commonly also associated with the four
points of the compass. In the past, before there were airplanes
and the like, the four elements symbolized thus also the
limitation of mortals down onto a flat Earth. Religion is the
escape up into the third dimension, the number five points up to
god or the gods, while the number six points down, hence the
popular Christian association of six with the devil. Christ
nailed to the cross is literally bound by earth, limited by the
four elements, but then symbolically saved by the fifth when he
ascends to heaven.
Ancient China and Transformation
Let me associatively derive some very interesting properties of
the numbers 6 to 10 from the smaller numbers. In my model of the
star signs, fire signs, for example, are stages in the
transition earth-fire-air. If you add the corresponding numbers,
you get 4+1+2 = 7. This provides an association between the
number 7 and the transformation of fire. If you do the same for
all four elements, you get:
6 1+2+3 transformation of air
7 4+1+2 transformation of fire
8 1+4+3 transformation of earth
9 4+3+2 transformation of water
10 2 x 5 meta transformation
This strange way of associating things may seem "out of bounds"
to some readers, but no association is wrong. And if you have
the courage to look further, you can find this very astonishing
correlation with Chinese themes:
6 6 x 6 36 Stratagems of War
7 7 x 7 ???
8 8 x 8 64 Hexagrams of the I Ching
9 9 x 9 81 parts of the Tao Te Ching
There is a strong association with water in the 81 short texts
of the Tao Te Ching. The I Ching, in contrast, is more
structured, more earthy. And its subtitle Book of Changes links
it explicitly to transformation. But there is more. In ancient
China, it was apparently common that the land of farmers was
arranged in a 3 x 3 matrix:
o o o
o • o
o o o
The outer 8 fields were cultivated by individual families, while
the ninth central field was common property and contained the
well. The Chinese word for well is very similar to the "ching"
in I Ching and Tao Te Ching. So the well provides water
(collective wishes) to the collective, making the outer fields
(earth) fertile.
The 36 Stratagems may be less known. They provide a concrete
list of tactical and strategical advice how to win in battles.
The logic (air) of war. I am not aware of anything that comes in
49 = 7 x 7 parts in ancient China.
Elements and Senses
I think this association between elements and senses fits in
several interesting ways:
1 fire eyes see
2 air ears hear
3 water nostrils+tongue smell/taste
4 earth hands+feet touch
In order to see, you need light, hence fire. Hearing is often
used when communicating with others via language, which is
associated with the element air. Smell and touch can be very
pleasurable experiences, hence they are related to feelings and
water, but they also serve to probe if something is good to eat
or drink. So there is also suspicion, reminding of the middle
water sign, Scorpio. Finally, physical reality is mainly touched
by hands and feet.
So touch is mainly experienced with 4 things, two hands and two
feet; smell and touch come from 3 things, two nostrils and one
tongue; sound comes in via 2 ears. The only thing that does not
fit so well in that respect is that people have two eyes, not
just 1.
Of course, just because one or maybe a few pieces of association
do not fit, you do not "throw out the baby theme with the bath
water". The theme still remains.
--- END PART 1 --
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: I forgot to mention Uranus conjunct Pluto at the closest angle to
: the yod's apex, which is quite a major factor to forget! (But I
: have been suffereing from sleep deprivation, among other things.)
: So, this also describes the revolutionary nature of many of your
: concepts.
I feel this goes a lot deeper than it might appear at first.
The "loss of Pluto" - no matter to what degree that might
actually be the case in retrospect - is not unlikely "the
theme" in astrology and the world of these times.
What has been in the 20th century clearly identifiable
generations, bound and protected by some common purpose
or goal, may now (really or just as a felt fear) be
experienced by many as a great loss and desorientation
with respect to how to approach/handle life itself.
Then again, Pluto in Capricorn would also be seen in
that way, in the destruction of structures and then
(at least in my general interpretation of Pluto) a
general drive in the generation born now with Pluto
in Capricorn to recreate (generate, hence the word
"generation" linked directly to Pluto) such lost
structures, or rather (hopefully) better ones...
I don't know what Pluto will do in the end.
)o+
--
But if the little fox, after nearly completing
the crossing gets his tail in the water, there
is nothing that would further. -- I Ching
A B wrote:
: I'm wrestling with another mundane chart at the moment, and have hit
: something I don't seem to have come across before.
: I'd like your opinions on what astrological factors might indicate
the
: opening or revealing of something that had been shut up for a long
time.
: Nothing metaphorical here, just quite literally opening something
(an
: underground chamber, to be precise) to reveal the hidden contents.
The more
: explanation you give, the better pleased I'll be!
I had been looking around many things and then looked
at the discovery chart of the tomb of Tutenchamun in
1992 by Howard Carter. Carter wrote in his diary:
* Saturday, November 4.
* First steps of tomb found.
* At about 10am I discovered beneath almost the first hut
* attacked the first traces of the entrance of the tomb
* (Tut.ankh.Amen) This comprised the first step of the
* N.E. corner (of the sunken-staircase).
-- http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/4sea1not.html
That puts the AC at 29 Sag 33', almost exactly where
Mercury is now (at 10:52 AM Swiss local time today).
Maybe that leads somewhere ?
)o+
Kjell wrote:
: The Sun and Moon rule the eyes, I think most say Sun is for the
right
: and the Moon for the left but it may be reversed with women. I think
: Sagittarius is related to eye-sight, or at least poor vision, but
: otherwise the eyes are in the head, ruled by Aries. If you google
for
: Ebertin's anatomical degrees you can get very precise information,
as
: every zodiacal degree is given a particular body part or function
(or
: vice versa, every part of your body given a degree). I have found
them
: to be amazingly accurate when trying to diagnos matters with myself,
: but beyond that I do not have much experience with them. However,
the
: concept of 'Zodiacal Man' is ancient, and I figure there must be a
: reason it has survived the ages.
I found something maybe interesting with regard to that
associatively: Orcus is according to Wikipedia apparently
maybe be a transliteration of Greek god Horkos or Horcus,
which, when I googled for it, I was asked, "Did you mean
Horus wikipedia?" by Google...
Wikipedia writes this about the falcon-headed Egyptian
god Horus:
* It became said that the sun was his right eye and the moon
* his left, and that they traversed the sky when he, a falcon,
* flew across it.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
Horus along Isis and Osiris are apparently Sirius, which
is conjuct my natal Orcus at about the middle of Cancer
in the 12th house. Sirius is a double star, with a bright
and a dim eye, a bit like sun and moon - even though that
only became visible once people had telescopes(!):
Photo of Sirius A and B, by Hubble Space Telescope
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/heic0516a.html
With Mercury approaching Capricorn today, I think I
will leave it minimally at that as possible hints...
)o+
Very cool site, horozcope.com, discovery charts of so
many asteroids - Thanks! :)
)o+
Hannelore Goos wrote:
: Am Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:50:41 -0600 schrieb Silveen:
:
: > Could the scenario of "first breath" be more appropriate
: > to be the correct time ?
:
: To this I agree. Dane Rudyar defines that the owner of a natal chart
ist a
: "whole" in the sense of Holistic philosophy. An embryo is not a
"whole".
: This is shown by the so-called fetal apnoe, which means that the
muscles
: are without tense so that no breathing is possible, and this is the
sign
: that there is no discreet live before the first breath. The first
breath
: breaks the fetal apnoe and starts a lot of organic functions
especially
: also in hormon production.
Thanks! Reminds me a lot of the Stoic views on breath:
* In Stoic philosophy, pneuma [...] is the concept of the
* "breath of life," a mixture of the elements air (in motion)
* and fire (as warmth). Originating among Greek medical
* writers who locate human vitality in the breath, pneuma
* for the Stoics is the active, generative principle that
* organizes both the individual and the cosmos. In its
* highest form, the pneuma constitutes the human soul
* (psyche), which is a fragment of the pneuma that is the
* soul of God (Zeus). As a force that structures matter,
* it exists even in inanimate objects.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneuma_(Stoic)
Side remark: The current perception in astrology that fire
and air are male/active and that water and earth are female/
passive originated apparently from that (see also my web
site). Too bad hardly any original works from Hellenistic
times have survived...
As a physicist, I also like the following a bit more abstract
idea, that when things separate or come together, the signature
of that moment (when/where) generally shapes the future. Hence
conception would be such a moment (egg cell + sperm cell => 1),
the moment at birth when the umbilical cord is cut (1 unit =>
2 people), or also the moment when two people first meet, etc.
But I am not dogmatic about this... :)
Also, maybe the moment of the first heart beat in an embryo
should also be considered a priori.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
A B wrote:
: Thanks for your reply. I look forward to the others.
Regarding rulership with regard to my model: I do not
see that yet so much, from what you wrote, but maybe
that has also a bit to do with a certain ambivalence
about planetary rulerships of signs, in me and also
generally in astrology, as follows:
Traditionally, as far as I know, the hottest months of
summer got the "life creater" planets, the "luminaries",
sun and moon to Leo and Cancer. Opposite them, in the
coldest months of winter is traditationally Saturn, the
slowest traditional planet who reduces/condenses things,
and hence is in that sense "opposite life".
Symmetrically between these are traditionally the other
planets, in the order of their apparent speed, Mercury,
Venus, Mars, Jupiter, in that order. So, it fits that
the four last signs have also the slowest and oldest
rulers (Saturn father of Jupiter, who is the father of
Venus, Mars and Mercury).
The traditional system of "essential dignities" is much
more complex than mere rulership, see e.g. here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
(Besides some exaltatioms, I do not know it in detail.)
The modern rulers, which have been assigned each time to
the later of the two sign in the zodiac, Uranus-Aquarius,
Neptune-Pisces, Mars-Scorpio, can arguably be seen as
"messing up" the traditional structure of the essential
dignities.
In modern 20th century astrology, very often rulers and
planets (and houses) have been almost equated. Writers
like Liz Greene and others from her generation have
written books specifically about single planets, but
none about individual signs or houses, I think at least
unconsciously under the assumption that a book about
Jupiter covers not only the planet but also the sign
Sagittarius and the 9th house, as well as partially
Pisces and the 12th. In a seminar by Liz Greene about
the water houses, someone asked her about the difference
between signs and houses, and at least I could not
isolate any specific difference from her answer, nor
from her seminar then.
In "The Astrology of Fate", for example, she links the
god Poseidon/Neptune more to bull/Taurus than to Pisces,
the sign it rules in modern view. I think quite a few
things have been lost since then (1984), especially her
1995 book about Neptune is something that I am not sure
whether she got completely lost there (which would be
fitting though, for a book about Neptune, or is it me
now who is lost... ;)
I liked the piece of mythology that you cited about
Scorpio in ancient Egypt from Steve Mayo a lot, I think
it fits very well, both with my model and with common
perceptions about Scorpio in astrology.
If one day, humanity started to "terraform" Mars, I
would not be astonished if scorpions, who already
switched to breathing air instead of water (cf. my
model), would be among the first macroscopic land
animals to permanently populate a new planet under
relatively hostile conditions...
)o+
I'm afraid, the vote and the request to form the group have
been canceled/retracted:
http://groups.google.com/group/de.admin.news.groups/msg/d37c5757c39e4595
According to the announcement, the RfD has been retracted
for reasons that had nothing to do with the procedure itself,
and it states that the team of moderators would at the moment
not be available for moderating.
Best wishes in any case!
)o+
I wrote:
: In modern 20th century astrology, very often rulers and
: planets (and houses) have been almost equated.
Correction:
In modern 20th century astrology, very often rulers and
*signs* (and houses) have been almost equated.
)o+
Hannelore Goos wrote:
: I've studied biology. My point of view results from discoveries of
: birth-medicine. The only starting point is the first breath.
Everything
: else follows.
I do not disagree with the biological facts, and I
acknowledge that a lot starts with the first breath,
which makes it at least likely that the moment of
first breath could be "the key moment" to use for
casting a chart for a newborn child. Actually, I
was not really aware of that before your first
post, so thanks a lot for that. :)
I would be scared, though, if biological facts would
be turned into _absolute dogma_ (I am not suggesting
that anyone here is doing that.), along the lines of
"before the first breath there is no life at all",
because then in ultimate consequence newborn (and
unborn) children might suffer from less protection
than they have now, as it apparently sadly was the
case in ancient Greece and Rome.
Allow me one further associative remark. Since Fire
and Air (the pneuma of the Stoics) are what has become
afterwards in astrology the male elements, maybe life
in that sense, of an individual being, can be seen in
contrast to a "passive"/"female"/"yin" living background
that persists all the time, a bit like Liz Greene writes
in "The Astrology of Fate" (Weiser, 1984), on page 261
in the section about Pisces:
* Kereny begins his _Dionysos_ by distinguishing between
* two Greek words for life, _zoe_ and _bios_. _Bios_
* carries the ring of characterized life; it is
* attributed to animals when their mode of existence is
* to be distinguished from that of plants. [...] _Zoe_,
* on the other hand, is life in general, without further
* characterization. Animals and plants each have their
* season and die; but life as _zoe_ is infinite, and
* does not encompass death. It is the life-force which
* sustains throughout the cyclical changes of forms.
)o+
: --
: Hannelore Goos
: http://www.neomarica.de
This has been puzzling me for years:
Since when is synastry used in astrology ?
(I know that composite charts are rather recent, sometime
in the earlier half of the 20th century in Germany, but
synastry might be quite a bit older, as also the Greek
root syn-astros would suggest...)
Thanks in adavance for any tips and clues,
)o+
PS: Sorry for the "flood of posts" today, I should have
rested more today anyway, my arm is aching already
quite a bit (really/actually!)... :(
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
Kjell wrote:
: On Dec 3, 10:50 pm, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
:
: > If Pluto is not directly exposed, maybe Orcus (2004DW),
: > the Kuiper belt object discovered in 2004 at around 24 Leo
: > or siderally at the end of Cancer.
:
: Interesting! I'm not really big on asteroids (in spite of my
: recommendation above), but having the ruler of my chart at 24 LEO, I
: just had to check the discovery chart of Orcus. Especially as this
was
: a rather special time, I was recovering from an ailment that almost
: wrecked me. Anyhow, what I wanted to do was to give a link to the
: discovery chart, in case anyone else should be interested in this
: little fella.
:
: http://www.horozcope.com/asteroids/index.php?langv=eng&act=info&nr=90482
I noticed one thing in the discovery chart: The AC is
at a sextile to both Pluto and Orcus, with Pluto below
the horizon and Orcus above, i.e. MC at the midpoint.
It may also be noteworthy that Orcus was photographed
after Eris (autumn 2003), but Eris was only seen much
later in analysis of the data.
In that sense, maybe Orcus is sort of a "diurnal" twin
to "nocturnal" Pluto, an opportunity (sextile) to maybe
compensate Pluto's loss of status (Eris is bigger) ?
Probably a little too far out to call now, I guess... ?
Orcus Ephemeris: http://www.astro.com/swisseph/2004dw.htm
Plutinos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutino
)o+
CFA wrote:
: whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?
:
: As in 'generation of life'.
:
: >I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
: >continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
: >obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
: >really ever had, at all).
:
: And people call me negative.
:
: >Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
: >denotes complete decimation, and *not*
: >reconstruction/regeneration.
:
: To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
: life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is
never
: lost), as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.
Yes, in my view the "energy" or "hope" is quite naturally
transferred to the new generation: When Pluto sweeps through
a sign and purges/destroys some things at that time, all the
people born during that time and growing up during that time
experience the loss and develop a hope/wish/drive to be in a
world in which there would be more of what they are feeling
they are losing and is missing and so when they grow up, will
put a lot of heart and energy into (re-)creating in a better
and hopefully more sustainable way.
I guess modern astrologers typically count all "collective"
planets (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) as shaping a generation,
see e.g.
Liz Greene, The Generation Gap
(originally written for "Appollon" magazine)
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_conflict_e.htm
but to me Pluto is prominent, exactly because in order to
_generate_, first something has to be _destroyed_, at least
in a cyclic view of the world where things cannot grow ad
infinitum. I guess Uranus (and likely also Neptune) differ
there with Pluto (and with Saturn).
)o+
I wrote:
: I don't know what Pluto will do in the end.
I still subscribe to that, things seem to be very much at flux and not
settled...
)o+
PS: Creation/destruction of life was if I am not mistaken in
traditional
views the matter of sun/moon vs. Saturn (and their ruled signs to some
degree, I guess), with Saturn arguably responsible for life's time
span.
A B wrote:
: All right, mystery over. It WAS Tutankamun's tomb I was doing - the
26th of
: November, when they opened the antechamber and "saw wonderful
things".
: That's why I wanted associations with seeing - I always like to have
a look
: for the soundbite, it's surprising how often it's there.
:
: Many thanks to everyone for all these suggestions!
: A. B.
Cool :), according to the link I indicated,
http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/4sea1not.html
that would have been at "about 2 pm", and the location
would be the valley of kings in Egypt. If I use Luxor
and a timezone of GMT+2 (hope that's correct), then...
whatever@twixntween.com wrote:
: In addition to the other very thoughtful replies you received, an
: underground chamber would be a 4th house matter. Thus, the ruler
: of the 4th, any planets therein, etc., would have to be closely
: examined. Its contents would be ruled by the 5th house.
Pluto (11*Can) conjunct IC (7*Can) in the 4th.
Neptune (18*Leo) in the 5th.
Moon (5*Pis) conjunct Uranus (10*Pis) in the 12th.
Sun (3*Sag) conjunct Venus (1*Sag) and Mercury (28*Sco)
in the 8th.
(Placidus houses.)
Kjell wrote:
: Pluto is a chtonic god and ruler of the underground and everything
: hidden there (and hidden things in general), so I would hazard a
guess
: on an aspect to Pluto. As it is some kind of intrusion into his
realm,
: a hard aspect feels more likely than a soft one. If the opening was
: accidental and sudden, Uranus might be involved -- et cetera. The
: manner in which the chamber was opened will decide what other planet/
s
: might have been involved.
Pluto (11*Can) at a square (as today) to Saturn (17*Lib)
in the 7th and at a trine to Uranus (10*Pis).
Learned at lot from that, thanks Yeshta(whatever@...)
and Kjell ! :)
I'd say illustrates Saturn (quite concrete specifics about
discovery charts) vs. my purely lucky guess(es)... ;)
Getting back to see/light: Maybe Saturn, just above the
horizon in the 7th, see the cover of Liz Greene's book
about Saturn, with Saturn carrying a light ?
http://www.amazon.de/gp/reader/0877283060/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://exactphilosophy.net/
A B wrote:
: Just a quick reply:
Fine with me :)
: "Hermes" <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote on 5th December:
:
: > The traditional system of "essential dignities" is much
: > more complex than mere rulership, see e.g. here:
: > http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
: > (Besides some exaltatioms, I do not know it in detail.)
:
: Very interesting - and fiendishly complicated! I'll read it when I
have
: time.
Me too, actually. I guess to be "competitive" in these
times in astrology (including in order to understand what
is happening in the world), I feel and think you *have*
to know traditional methods...
: > In a seminar by Liz Greene about
: > the water houses, someone asked her about the difference
: > between signs and houses, and at least I could not
: > isolate any specific difference from her answer, nor
: > from her seminar then.
:
: The only difference I've ever noticed is that houses seem to be more
about
: what, rather than how. For example, Jupiter in Virgo might be
cautious and
: controlled expanding, whereas Jupiter in 6th might be expansion
connected
: with, for instance, daily work.
: Or did you mean rulers and houses?
No I mean signs vs. houses, was no typo for a change.
: > I liked the piece of mythology that you cited about
: > Scorpio in ancient Egypt from Steve Mayo a lot, I think
: > it fits very well, both with my model and with common
: > perceptions about Scorpio in astrology.
:
: Jeff Mayo. I've not heard of Steve Mayo, who is he?
Typo by me...
: If I come up with anything else later, I'll let you know.
No hurry, I myself would actually like to let some things
I read (and wrote) settle, and Mercury is in Capricorn now
(and conjuct Pluto, if that still means anything...).
: A. B.
:
)o+
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:40:23 -0600, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch>
: wrote:
:
:
:
: >A B wrote:
:
: >: All right, mystery over. It WAS Tutankamun's tomb I was doing -
the
: >26th of
: >: November, when they opened the antechamber and "saw wonderful
: >things".
: >: That's why I wanted associations with seeing - I always like to
have
: >a look
: >: for the soundbite, it's surprising how often it's there.
: >:
: >: Many thanks to everyone for all these suggestions!
: >: A. B.
:
: >Cool :), according to the link I indicated,
:
: > http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/4sea1not.html
:
: >that would have been at "about 2 pm", and the location
: >would be the valley of kings in Egypt. If I use Luxor
: >and a timezone of GMT+2 (hope that's correct), then...
:
: >whatever@twixntween.com wrote:
:
: >: In addition to the other very thoughtful replies you received, an
: >: underground chamber would be a 4th house matter. Thus, the ruler
: >: of the 4th, any planets therein, etc., would have to be closely
: >: examined. Its contents would be ruled by the 5th house.
:
: >Pluto (11*Can) conjunct IC (7*Can) in the 4th.
: >Neptune (18*Leo) in the 5th.
: >Moon (5*Pis) conjunct Uranus (10*Pis) in the 12th.
:
: Moon ruling the 4th conjunct Uranus sounds about right.
:
: >Sun (3*Sag) conjunct Venus (1*Sag) and Mercury (28*Sco)
: >in the 8th.
:
: If the Sun rules the 5th, of course they'd be seeing the
: belongings of a king's burial chamber. :-)
:
: >(Placidus houses.)
:
: >Kjell wrote:
:
: >: Pluto is a chtonic god and ruler of the underground and everything
: >: hidden there (and hidden things in general), so I would hazard a
: >guess
: >: on an aspect to Pluto. As it is some kind of intrusion into his
: >realm,
: >: a hard aspect feels more likely than a soft one. If the opening was
: >: accidental and sudden, Uranus might be involved -- et cetera. The
: >: manner in which the chamber was opened will decide what other planet/
: >s
: >: might have been involved.
:
: >Pluto (11*Can) at a square (as today) to Saturn (17*Lib)
: >in the 7th and at a trine to Uranus (10*Pis).
:
: >Learned at lot from that, thanks Yeshta(whatever@...)
: >and Kjell ! :)
:
: Thank you, for giving some chart details! :-)
You're welcome!
: And, A.B., yes, it is called an Event chart. :-)
:
: >I'd say illustrates Saturn (quite concrete specifics about
: >discovery charts) vs. my purely lucky guess(es)... ;)
:
: >Getting back to see/light: Maybe Saturn, just above the
: >horizon in the 7th, see the cover of Liz Greene's book
: >about Saturn, with Saturn carrying a light ?
:
: > http://www.amazon.de/gp/reader/0877283060/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
:
: >)o+
Some more chart details...
The part of fortune is conjunct Pluto/IC in the 4th.
And it is conjunct fixed star Sirius (c.f. Orcus-Horus).
Orcus itself is at 10 Taurus in the 1st, sextile Pluto.
And, in case someone missed it: Saturn is in Libra, as it is
today, and - as today - at a square to Pluto, in 1922 at an
"outgoing" square with Pluto in Cancer, today at an "incoming"
square with Pluto in Capricorn.
The idea to distinguish incoming/outcoming aspects is from
Charles Harvey (afaik):
* From seed to flower to fruit and back to seed again. The
* ground rule of Life is that all things abide in the One,
* proceed forth into manifestation and return back to the
* One again. This is the eternal return in all its variations
* which astrology so elegantly describes [...]. However [...]
* most astrologers continue, blind eyed, to interpret a 270*
* square like a 90* square, a 120* trine like a 240* trine
* and so on. To do this is to lose half the message that an
* aspect is giving us. Contrary to the way most astrologers
* still seem to work and think, life processes unfold
* themselves in cycles of 360* and not 180*.
Read on here:
Sun and Neptune through the Aspect Cycle
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sun_nep.html
)o+
At the risk of carrying things maybe too far, but
while still hoping to provide interesting additional
angles, especially with respect also to some things
mentioned in the "amusing memory" thread that I am
trying to understand a little, the following:
26 Proserpina (5*Sag) conjunct Sun/Venus in 8th
The trinity of Osiris (father), Isis (mother) and
Horus (son) roughly occupies 3 of the 4 angles:
42 Isis (9*Can) conjunct IC/Pluto/Part of F. in 4th
1923 Osiris (2*Ari) conjuct AC/Lilith in 12th
1924 Horus (20*Lib) conjuct DC/Saturn in 7th
Tutanchamun, died at the age of about 8-10, so the
conjunction of Horus, the son, with Saturn (death)
seems a good correspondence, especially in Libra
and near the horizon (DC, dividing line between 7th
and 6th, resp. day => night), as follows...
The number 42 of asteroid Isis relates also to the
hall of Ma'at, between "the land of the living and
the kingdom of the dead", as Liz Greene writes in
_The Astrology of Fate_ (Weiser, 1984), about Libra.
The 42 questions to the dead that decided - correct
me if I am wrong, my knowledge here does not reach
very deep - about whether the soul was to be reborn;
symbolically as a feather that was weighed against
the sins/heart of the deceased...
Symbolically, to me, 42 and Libra are in many ways
a balance between Saturn (7th planet) and Jupiter
(6th planet), 42 = 7 x 6. The number 7/Saturn, the
planet exalted ("good guest") in Libra, is the point
at which the beam of the scale is attached, it is
perfectly rigid. The number 6/Jupiter is for the
opportunity (6-sextile) and freedom of the movement
of the beam and scale pans that the deceased has in
this short time span after death: Rebirth or not,
two different fates that are in Greek mythology
represented by the 3 Fates, i.e. 6 = 3 + 3.
(Of course, in the end I am making heavy use of my
associative methods, see "magic carpets" posts.)
At any rate, in my personal view, most of this thread
illustrates how much of astrology is art. Coming from
the chart, all these possible placements make lots of
sense, but coming from the other side, from the
original ridddle, is far more difficult, and I guess
minimal Saturnine methods are more likely to convince
sceptics in the end... Or something like that :)
)o+
On Dec 21, 10:11 am, "Silveen" <Stargazer-Silveen@t-online.de> wrote:
> Hello All:
> What happened ? - this silence -
> is it the shaddow of ME retrograde ? or
> is it just because of the upcoming holidays -
> everyone being too busy ? -
>
> Whatever.
> Here´s wishing you all Happy Holidays and
> a Healthy and Happy start into the New Year.
>
> Be well y´all
> IRH/Silveen
Maybe the Mars station?
I for my part have been "busy", but not in the
usual way...
Anyway, happy holidays to everybody!
)o+
On Dec 11, 7:03 am, "A B" <a@a> wrote:
> The following appeared on alt.astrology at the end of October. I asked if I
> could copy it to this group, and the OP said yes. That was a week ago, and
> I've only just remembered!
> It's a rather remarkable birth chart. Sun, Moon and five planets all in
> Aquarius. Here's the data:
>
> "druebeall" <ruserious..@gmail.com> wrote on 25th October:
>
> > Here is my info:
> > DOB: 02/04/1962 @ 8:22 pm,
> > POB: Lynwood, ca. LOS ANGELES COUNTY
> > Thanks
>
> I'll add the reply I made at the time:
> On Nov 1, 12:07 pm, "A B" <a@a> wrote:
>
> > Wow. I see what you mean. That's the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars,
> > Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius. Not quite "100% Aquarian", because Uranus,
> > Neptune and Pluto aren't in Aquarius, not to mention the Ascendant and
> > Midheaven. But pretty close. Closer than I've ever come across, in fact.
> > The only other chart I've seen that's at all like this is the 5th of May
> > 2000, when nearly everything was in Taurus - and I don't actually know
> > anyone born then. I was just looking it up on account of something
> > somebody
> > said.
>
> Hope some of you find this an interesting chart to have a go at.
> A. B.
At first sight tells me "Woodstock", Ura/n.node Leo
(musical revolution, expression) on a collective
background (all these planets in Aquarius), announced
as "An Aquarian Exposition: 3 Days of Peace & Music":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_Festival
I remember also a discussion in ca. 2003 here with
Chris Mitchel, thread related to Ages; he mentioned a
book by a Jewish rabbi about astrology(!), idea was
ca. that Saturn passes down message of the gods
at conjunction ("meeting") with inner planets, Jupiter
first - so crucial are maybe Sat/Jup conjunction(s)
earlier...
)o+
On Dec 10, 9:13 pm, "A B" <a@a> wrote:
> Just time to say thanks very much to everyone. I didn't notice half the
> things you mentioned at all! I don't usually get round to the part of
> fortune, for instance, so didn't notice its very striking position in this
> case. Not to mention Sirius being there too. Sirius was the most important
> star in Egyptian religion/magic. Anyway, I'll go into this further some
> other time.
> A. B.
For later reference, here is a chart drawing, which should
contain at least most of the mentioned objects and points:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kC0zS7qs0g3MI3AWeeuWU_cxrZ0p2gBKdoDsINRk_4qx2pkA4509b_iFcNdi1aYLayHMumI5P5BHeMD162osN6H9otNX3wM5WKebKf-EJEPU79o/Charts/Events/king-tut-antechamber-opening.gif
(at the "aamod" yahoo group under the charts/events category)
)o+
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
The link did not work for the moderator, but it is possible to go to the y-group and check directly if it does not work.
> For later reference, here is a chart drawing, which should
> contain at least most of the mentioned objects and points:
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kC0zS7qs0g3MI3AWeeuWU_cxrZ0p2gBKdoDsINRk...
>
> (at the "aamod" yahoo group under the charts/events category)
>
> )o+
>
> ======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> The link did not work for the moderator, but it is possible to go to the y-group and check directly if it does not work.
Sorry, here is a link to the same image that should be public
and persistent:
Direct link to full scale chart image:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/SzNuVQTdJbI/AAAAAAAAAWM/L-CaU4Qa50U/king-tut-antechamber-opening.gif
My "aamod" picasa web album (only one chart so far...):
http://picasaweb.google.com/alain.stalder.ch/Aamod#
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch (now with more links
and images!)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Dec 24, 10:12 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Anmswer to the 100% Aquarian post.
> Thanks!
>
> On Nov 4, 8:51 pm, E H Wollmann Professional Astrologer
>
>
>
> <acheaopt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 10:12 am, "A B" <a@a> wrote:
>
> > > "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net> wrote on 3rd November:
>
> > > > Archetypes (astrological signs) are references to concepts and
> > > > consciousness, like genes they describe potentials, not dicta.
>
> > > Of course. But as far as any chart goes, that is a pretty striking one.
> > > A. B.
>
> > But you see, this shows how little people pay attention to the
> > delineation steps and analysis proceedures I have laid out and
> > demonstrated as coherent many times.
> > I have seen this chart before, there was an eclipse at this time.
> > What is more important than the fact there is a stellium in Aquarius
> > (7 planets) is the fact that if you follow my rules for INITIAL
> > delineation, this gives us 11 points in fixed signs (rigidity-the
> > energy motion of belief) only 1 mutable (flexibility and the fluidity
> > of thought) and 10 air (plus MC) 1 fire, 1 earth and 1 water. Hence,
> > although without logical analysis the mind wishes to attach
> > significance to the pile-up in Aquarius, it is really what the
> > IMBALANCE indicates that is more telling. Please see :http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/pyramids.htm
I find to no way to argue with that in the end; after all *the* thing
in astrology that is apparently *shared* by all astrologers on the
world is what element and character each sign is assigned to,
and also regarding meanings of elements and characters there
is a lot more common than regarding practically all other things
in astrology (meanings of signs beyond element/character, which
aspect with which orbs, house meanings and systems, which
planets and points to consider, etc.).
I might make an exception with regard to some major aspects;
and I guess they are also not completely separate from a basic
elements and characters view: If there are many planets in, say,
the fixed signs, the square aspect would have the highest
probability of occurring, followed by - in some order I am not sure
of without doing a more detailed calculation - conjunction and
square, as well as out-of-sign trine and sextile.
Thanks also for the link... :)
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch (I have added a tiny
collection of astro links!)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> > "The masculine Fire element represents the Trinity of Identity. Aries
> > (belief), Leo (emotion), Sagittarius (faith and trust apex/thought).
> > When positively balanced in representation reflects a healthy sense of
> > identity validity and effectual ego importance. When lacking or low (1
> > point or less) a mistrust of the self and its creative birthright.
> > There is difficulty entering into experiences with trust and
> > spontaneity. When overemphasized, zeal blinds the self to truths and
> > temperament reigns. Positive; inspired trust. Negative (or in Grand
> > Trine); a fear of being ignored and ego defensiveness.
>
> > Feminine Earth, the Trinity of Physicality. Taurus (emotion), Virgo
> > (thought), Capricorn (physical manifestation apex/belief). When
> > positively balanced a recognition that the Earth and materiality is a
> > spiritual experience through functional adequacy. It is not something
> > to be shunned and "overcome". It is the love of money above other
> > considerations that is the root of evil, not money. The physical world
> > is the material version of spirit. When it is low or lacking there is
> > the fear or belief that material things are base or dangerous. There
> > is difficulty with stability in day-to-day affairs. When excessive,
> > preoccupation with material things and strategy. Positive; functional
> > adequacy. Negative (or in Grand Trine); fear of losing control, and a
> > lack of imagination.
>
> > Masculine Air, the Trinity of Idea Interaction. Gemini (thought),
> > Libra (belief), and Aquarius (ideological validation apex/emotion).
> > When positively balanced there is a trust in the development, validity
> > and contribution of the identity's idea expression, interaction and
> > reflection socially, through ideological appreciation. All beings are
> > valid as one of the different ways that "All That Is" has of
> > expressing itself, because they are reflections of itself, as others
> > are reflections of ourselves. When low or lacking there is little
> > trust in the idea of others being of reflective service and therefore,
> > a lack of analytical discernment. There is an abbreviation of abstract
> > perspective abilities and difficulty seeing the self as others do.
> > When excessive there is a preoccupation with the self and its
> > perspectives. Positive; Social and intellectual appreciation and
> > vigor. Negative (or in Grand Trine); fears of being unappreciated and
> > overcompensatory rationalizations. The identity lives and dies by the
> > social mirror.
>
> > The feminine Water signs is the Trinity of Belief Momentum (E-motion).
> > Cancer (belief), Scorpio (emotion), and Pisces (empathic synchronous
> > accord apex/thought). When positively balanced there is a trust in the
> > sensibilities, instincts and intuition or empathic discernment. The
> > ability to walk in someone else's shoes helps dissolve the need to
> > dominate, breaks down the barriers between us and others, and
> > therefore between us and "All That Is". The barriers between us and
> > others is the same as the barrier between us and our higher self. When
> > low or lacking there is a difficulty or a lack of trust in the idea
> > that others are reflective in service. Things are taken extremely
> > personally. There is a fear of not being emotionally discerned, while
> > others emotions are not considered. When excessive the identity may
> > have difficulty with self definition through too much focus on forms
> > of sympathy. Positive; Intuitive access and appreciation of the
> > unconscious momentums. Negative (or in Grand Trine); A fear of being
> > taken advantage of and being hurt.
>
> > When there is a preponderance of the Cardinal quadruplicity of belief
> > Mode there is an exaggerated emphasis on action and leadership to
> > defend against the perceived threat of identity invalidity and status
> > concerns. When they are low or lacking there is a lack of recognition
> > that action reflects belief conviction.
>
> > When Fixed quadruplicity of emotion is emphasized there is a focus on
> > the consolidation of the identity and a rigid preoccupation with self
> > worth and creative prowess. When low or lacking there is an issue with
> > resourcefulness.
>
> > When Mutable quadruplicity of thought is the most predominant mode
> > there will be a focus on the diversity and dissemination of
> > information and perspectives. When excessive resources can be wasted
> > and scattered, and when lacking, critical thinking, discernment and
> > vision may suffer as well as an inability to see diverse points of
> > view."
>
> > Therefore, this person would be fixated on self worth and creative (in
> > this case innovative) prowess. Magnified by the ruler Uranus, being in
> > Leo Rx. Massive air count indicates ideological validation as the
> > method of that fixation.
>
> > The LACKING elements and modes can be read from the delineations I
> > created above as well, i.e., 1 Mutable (Pluto Rx): "when lacking,
> > critical thinking, discernment and vision may suffer as well as an
> > inability to see diverse points of view."
>
> > So we get a sense right off the bat that BALANCE is missing in the
> > primal belief system functioning and the only thing striking about the
> > chart is how much the identity relies on certain aspects of reality
> > and discounts others.
> > The square with Neptune would indicate that this developmental process
> > to become more aware and flexible might come through creative
> > expression (acting, the arts, music). The Pluto is also the only point
> > in Earth: "When it is low or lacking there is the fear or belief that
> > material things are base or dangerous." Hence, there may be an
> > unrealistic or less than pragmatic appraoch to resolving issues, and
> > the need for stability becomes apparent as there might be difficulty
> > in dealing with the mundane. So we begin to see what I have termed in
> > my book "the law of momentum flow" taking shape already.
> > The questions to the client would then revolve around; what and how
> > did the parental relationship contribute to this overwhelming focus on
> > the uniqueness or ideology of the identity being so focused and in
> > such high profile?
>
> > Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates as I state above:" When
> > low or lacking there is a difficulty or a lack of trust in the idea
> > that others are reflective in service." so there would be social needs
> > mostly to validate the individuality, not as a mirror to broaden and
> > encourage diversity and allowance.
>
> > This is brief but hopefully helpful and more realistic way to begin
> > analysing charts. Because life is the experiencing of polarity and
> > opposites, it is BALANCE and integration of all that is that is
> > important, not being100% anything, which can indicate psychological
> > fears and overcompensation rather than balance, because a chart has
> > many factors and when they work together with equal validity all
> > around it is easier to be positive and flowing and reflects less
> > "issue" with any particular archetype which are all valid, equal and
> > all real.
>
> > Thanks.
>
> > "Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls
> > into lazy habits of thinking."
> > Albert Einstein
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
On Dec 24, 11:40 pm, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> >Anmswer to the 100% Aquarian post.
> >Thanks!
> >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
>
> "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
> Jupiter?
In my elementary model of the star signs, the waterbearer
Aquarius himself would be made mainly of water (transition
Gemini-Libra-Aquarius would be roughly fire-air-water),
c.f. also this drawing of the constellation with Aquarius
pouring water (like the sky(air) does rain (water)) to the
southern fish (in other drawings the water is also going
directly into the mouth of the fish or in one it was even
unclear which way the water flows):
http://www.not-of-this-earth.com/images/Lg_AJ_Aquarius.jpg
I am not sure if in general a planet in a water sign square
a large stellium in an air sign would have enough *force*
to create an overall water effect. Might still be an important
"issue" in the sense that the ones in air might almost always
overpower the one in water, possibly building up quite a
bit of suppressed tension over the years that might then at
moments come out big, or so. But that's just my two naive
cents... ;)
)o+
> Ken
> --
> cfa at alt dot net
I wrote:
> I might make an exception with regard to some major aspects;
> and I guess they are also not completely separate from a basic
> elements and characters view: If there are many planets in, say,
> the fixed signs, the square aspect would have the highest
> probability of occurring, followed by - in some order I am not sure
> of without doing a more detailed calculation - conjunction and
> square, as well as out-of-sign trine and sextile.
Sorry, the end was somewhat buggy and incomplete of me;
and with Mercury soon retro I can only hope to get it right ;) :
If there are many planets in, say, the fixed signs, the square
aspect would have the highest probability of occurring, followed
by - in some order I am not sure of without doing a more detailed
calculation - conjunction and opposition, as well as out-of-sign
trine and sextile (planets in signs "at a square"), quincunx (planets
in opposing signs) and semi-sextile (planets in same sign)...
)o+
On Dec 4, 11:12 pm, Kjell <kjelleman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 10:50 pm, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If Pluto is not directly exposed, maybe Orcus (2004DW),
> > the Kuiper belt object discovered in 2004 at around 24 Leo
> > or siderally at the end of Cancer.
>
> Interesting! I'm not really big on asteroids (in spite of my
> recommendation above), but having the ruler of my chart at 24 LEO, I
> just had to check the discovery chart of Orcus. Especially as this was
> a rather special time, I was recovering from an ailment that almost
> wrecked me.
Seems to be a similar case on my side: No indication with
my chart ruler, but natal Orcus (15*55 Cancer) indicates the
Pancreas (=15-16 Cancer if I am reading this the right way, but
the previous one would have been a good fit for the strongest
acute symptoms, except luckily not really earnestly the last word).
As I discovered today after many hours of looking at my computer
tomography with a program called not astonishingly "OsiriX",
my Pancreas seems to have been dislocated and with it
maybe the melt and especially the relatively large artery from
the aorta along the Pankreas to the melt _makes some pretty
*awkward loops*_ at the height where I have most direct pain,
albeit rather hard to locate precisely, probably because it is quite
deep down...
Anyway, still have to show it to my doctor next week, to
make sure I was right; and the deeper reason for this stuff
seems to be in my literal inner asymmetry, which I would
most likely associate with Saturn in Libra, and would also
fit for the current square to Pluto, of course. Causing me
all kinds of strange pains and effect mainly on the left side
of my body (maybe also <=> south node firduria?), including
that typing with my left hand can be very bad and that I can
feel with anbody who cannot sleep (I can now again with
a sedative and a gel primarily marketed against varices).
I hope to be able to write more at a later time, looks like I
should recover from this, but I guess will take until summer
(which would again fit with south node firduria) to get really
fit again...
Thanks all for all the very helpful contributions, even if I
did not directly ask for that :)
Walk like an Egyptian... ;)
)o+
> Anyhow, what I wanted to do was to give a link to the
> discovery chart, in case anyone else should be interested in this
> little fella.
>
> http://www.horozcope.com/asteroids/index.php?langv=eng&act=info&nr=90482
>
> /K
I met Alois Treindl (founder of astro,com) once in early 2005,
actually at the day when there was an exact opposition of
t.Neptune (in Aquarius) to my natal sun, and at the occasion
he also took a quick look at my birth chart and, as far as I
remember, he mentioned the imbalance between elements
first (4 trad. planets in water, 3 in fire, no trad. planets in air
or earth, ura-plu is in virgo, nep in sco). When I interjected
that, hey Uranus and Pluto in earth he just mentioned that
those are collective planets.
That was apparenty his initial approach to a chart, at least
in my case. Cannot judge it much rationally and my feelings
are a bit mixed, maybe like this: If you somehow strive for a
single best way of looking initially at a chart that gives best
results averaged over all charts that you might ever look at
(a bit like if you devise computer analyses like Alois does, and
certainly very well, or when you make a scientific hypothesis
of "the" way it is), then I think the elementary analysis might
be the best approach and also be a good one in many
situations. Seems to me maybe on the axis Aqu-Leo ?
(I devised my elementary model of the star signs in 2001
when the sun was in Aquarius, and am a Leo).
The other approach here would likely be to look at each chart
in its own right, like if it was a living individual (often it is!)
who
deserves a dedicated specialized look (art) that even adapts
methods to some degree to the chart at hand (often indirectly
by visiting the "right" astrologer). Deep or cheesy? Both?
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Dec 28, 9:52 pm, "A B" <a@a.uk> wrote:
> Thanks for the chart drawing Hermes! I'll have a look at that as soon as I
> have time.
> A. B.
No hurry at all from my side, nor any obligation whatsoever! (of
course)
It's also not like Tutenchamun was much in a hurry to be
found by treasure hunters...
)o+
--
(PS: My post yesterday was maybe a bit too early with exact
details regarding me, but with Mercury retrograde, I guess I
better wait until the fog eventually clears up.......)
From "The Homeric Hymns", in the translation by Apolostolos
N. Athanassakis (John Hopkins University Press, 1976/2004):
* 4: To Hermes
[...]
* Then the son of Maia, sharp-eyed Argeiphontes,
* cut off from the herd fifty head of loud-lowing cattle.
* Through the sandy place he drove them on a beguiling route,
* turning their hoofprints round. Mindful of the artful ruse,
* he reversed their hoofs, setting the front part backward
* and the back part forward and opposite to his own course.
* And forthwith on the sandy beach he plaited sandals
* of wicker-work, wondrous things of unimaginable skill,
* mingling tamarisk and twigs of myrtle.
* He made a bundle of fresh-grown seasonable branches
* and snugly tied them to be sandals for his feet,
* leaves and all, just as glorious Argeiphontes
* had plucked them from Pieria to lighten the toil of walking
* by making his own device, as one does on an urgent long journey.
I can almost see planet Mercury move backwards here,
and the interactions with Apollon (sun) and Zeus (Jupiter)
in other parts of the hymn are certainly also familiar :)
)o+
On Dec 31, 2:00 am, pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 10:51 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I met Alois Treindl (founder of astro,com) once in early 2005,
> > actually at the day when there was an exact opposition of
> > t.Neptune (in Aquarius) to my natal sun, and at the occasion
> > he also took a quick look at my birth chart and, as far as I
> > remember, he mentioned the imbalance between elements
> > first (4 trad. planets in water, 3 in fire, no trad. planets in air
> > or earth, ura-plu is in virgo, nep in sco). When I interjected
> > that, hey Uranus and Pluto in earth he just mentioned that
> > those are collective planets.
>
> > That was apparenty his initial approach to a chart, at least
> > in my case. Cannot judge it much rationally and my feelings
> > are a bit mixed, maybe like this: If you somehow strive for a
> > single best way of looking initially at a chart that gives best
> > results averaged over all charts that you might ever look at
> > (a bit like if you devise computer analyses like Alois does, and
> > certainly very well, or when you make a scientific hypothesis
> > of "the" way it is), then I think the elementary analysis might
> > be the best approach and also be a good one in many
> > situations. Seems to me maybe on the axis Aqu-Leo ?
> > (I devised my elementary model of the star signs in 2001
> > when the sun was in Aquarius, and am a Leo).
>
> > The other approach here would likely be to look at each chart
> > in its own right, like if it was a living individual (often it is!)
> > who
> > deserves a dedicated specialized look (art) that even adapts
> > methods to some degree to the chart at hand (often indirectly
> > by visiting the "right" astrologer). Deep or cheesy? Both?
>
> > )o+
> > --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilos...
>
> It comes down to the needs of the "astrologer" ; but I think the need
> to be definitively correct--in control of how other's are to be
> defined, is quite "cheesy" , as you put it...: ) The fact that we can
> know almost nothing about this Universe; in its essence, nothing but
> our own artfully created relative terms, should at some point release
> the ego from having to be god-like in its desire for apparent
> infallibility....: ) Perhaps knowledge should indeed set one free, and
> not chain the soul to an endless series of ego-sustaining parlor
> tricks...always a rabbit appears from the hat on cue...: ) The truth
> of the matter is, one cannot sell or trade experiences which do not
> promise to "empower" someone; thus, it is only Power that is
> ostensibly offered to the consumer of promises, and not a more soul-
> enhancing understanding of our collective ignorance...: |
>
> Think of the Trinity of: House 2, -House 6, -House 10, in the
> abstract. See here how Personal Increase(H2) is tied to Service (H6)
> by way of Governing Power (H10). This psychical "molecule" of three
> parts does not exist if one part is removed, and any one part is so
> like the other two when they operate in unison, as a kind of
> "molecule" of human motivation, that the confusion of Service with
> the exercise of Power ends up being defined as the Power of Money, or
> the Service of Power. So tempting it its for the ego to say; " *I*
> have the Power to Serve!" Here we have conjured House 10 plus House
> 6; but what is in the soul's House 2, of Personal Increase--what
> spiritual equivalent of Money is here the third atomic member of this
> "molecule" of human motivation? Only the Soul has the potential for
> the kind of Personal Increase needed to bond the abstract trinity--
> <H2-H6-H10>.
>
> Power is "cheesy" : the Self is "deep". Service may be nearly
> impossible due to the soul's complete lack of understanding of the
> essentials we pretend to control/manipulate by way of our ego-serving
> definitions.
>
> Pedantus Pontificus...: )
Thanks a lot! :)
(Would it be too bold to claim that a good part of what can
make the magic of a relation compared to an individual being
is, beyond obviously the relative aspects in synastry, the fact
that usually planets are in different houses in synastry for both?)
)o+
Hi everybody,
In the following is a text that astrologically likely mostly
deals with the lunar nodes, even though this comes in Mercury
retro fashion only really out in the leads near the end.
I wrote the text below in October 2009 (sun in Libra).
It is about things in life (and astrology) that are both 1
and 2 at the same time or in alteration, like in astrology
arguably most fittingly the nodes...
The text is also at my web site:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/lego.html
Enjoy,
)o+
--
moebius lego
If you step into the same river twice, the waters will be
different. -- Heraclitus
How about not describing the world with units, but with
something that contains already all irresolvable dualities
within itself, something like a Möbius strip ?
[click for illustration]
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/T2WIVGWn1PQOWtB9l8NdeQ?feat=directlink
In early ancient philosophy, opposites are often not fully
separated, yet. Heraclitus says, for example, that "the path up
and the path down are one and the same".
The Chinese Yin-Yang symbol has its origin in the image of a
hill, in its sunny and shadowy sides, which gradually trade
places during each day. So in a way space repeats in time, twice
before returning to the starting point.
Similarly, if you imagine you are an ant that walks along the
number 8 or on the symbol for infinity ∞, you get to the central
point twice, but coming from different directions. On an
infinitely narrow Möbius strip, you even get to every point
twice, but on different sides of the strip.
Kant realized that space and time are a priori necessary for
thinking. What is also needed, is to remember things, to repeat
things mentally. When thinking, you remember different things,
you recreate them from memory and recombine them. So thinking
requires mental loops in space and time, which reminds of the
mentioned images.
Any scientific theory of the world that claims to be complete
creates at least one loop of self-reference: It must be able to
describe itself, since it is part of the world.
This has so far always lead to paradoxes in one way or the
other. Also, new experiments can at any time change specific
answers to quite fundamental question like whether the future is
really or just practically not fully predictable. The former is
the current view in quantum mechanics, the latter was the view
in classical mechanics.
So, why not concede that some fundamental questions cannot be
answered, and embed them into something like a Möbius strip, as
a way of preserving both possibilities ? The rest of the world
would then presumably be relatively easy to handle, in terms of
such dual building blocks that embed all insolvable questions...
Of course this is quite an abstract idea, but still: Can it be
turned into something more concrete and specific ?
leads
* Is mathematics the best tool for this or would a modified form
of mathematics be better suited for the task ?
Take Hilbert's second problem, the question whether
arithmetics is free of internal contradictions. As Gödel has
shown, using also self-reference in the proof, it is not
possible to prove so strictly within that system. Quite
generally, mathematical statements about the internal
consistency of mathematics itself can arguably not be trusted
with absolute certainty. So there seem to be unsolvable
fundamental questions in mathematics, too, hence something to
embed before proceeding ?
* The wave-particle duality in quantum mechanics comes maybe
close to the proposed idea. A least in the original Copenhagen
interpretation, the duality is considered a fundamental duality
that can never be resolved, except for quantitative predictions
in which experiments which aspect will show more.
* Spacially separated particles with correlated quantum states
can depending on the experiment be considered to be individual
particles or need to be treated as an entity, despite a possibly
spacelike separation between measurements that allows no signals
to travel in between.
* Since according to quantum field theory all elementary
particles have come to be from elementary processes, like pair
production, the world would in principle be filled with quantum
mechanical correlations. Even though these would usually not be
directly visible, they might even show in cases not covered by
the statistical approach of decoherence.
* Virtual particles can depending on the observer be particle or
corresponding antiparticle and 'fly' one way or the other.
* The image of a hill for Yin-Yang fuses Aristotle's fundamental
opposites hot-cold and dry-wet into a single unity. Its sunny
side gets warmer and dryer than the shadowy side.
* How about turning the circle of elements into a Möbius strip of
elements ?
Using the association between elements and trigrams that I
give under ancient philosophy, the male trigrams might form
one circle and then switch in-out into a second circle of the
female trigrams. Male fire, for example, which moves actively
outside would be mirrored by a calm active inner flame, by
female fire. Psychologically speaking, women are often good at
preserving a wish, a dream of how things should be (fire), and
wishing for men to realize them in the outer world (move
outside, hence fire). Conversely, men seem to be less able to
preserve such a dream, hence a mutual dependency between men
and women would naturally emerge from this image...
* Søren Kierkegaard. Repetition. 1843.
"[...] Repetition is a decisive expression for what was
"recollection" to the Greeks. Like they taught that all
cognition is recollection, so will the new philosophy teach
that all of life is repetition. [...] Repetition and
recollection are the same movement, only in opposite
directions; because that what is remembered, has been, is
repeated backwards, while repetition per se is a recollection
in forward direction. Therefore repetition, if it is possible,
makes a man happy, while recollection makes him unhappy, under
the precondition that he gives himself time to live, and does
not in the first hour after his birth devise a pretext for
stealing himself out of life again, because, say, he forgot
something." (translated by me from Hans Rochol's translation
to German, Felix Meiner, 2000)
* William James Sidis. The Animate and the Inanimate. 1925.
"[...] The behavior of drops of mercury on a smooth surface,
consisting, we may suppose, partly of metal. These drops, in
our universe, would roll around under the influence of any
external forces that may happen to be present, unite if two
happen to come together, and, in case they touch metal, the
drop will shrink and partly amalgamate with the metal. In the
[time reversed] universe, on the contrary, we have a different
arrangement: the drops will roll around as before, but, in
their rolling, will avoid the pure metal surfaces, but will
tend to roll over the amalgam surfaces. When in contact with
the amalgam, they will extract the mercury, and thus the drops
will keep growing. When the drop grows in this manner to a
large size, there will appear a constriction, and finally a
division into two drops, each like the original. This action
of ordinary mercury drops in the reverse universe corresponds
in many details to the growth and division of living cells in
our universe." (quoted from sidis.net)
Ingenious observation, even though - from a strictly
scientific point of view - rather an illusion: Life creates
order locally, but at the same time exports disorder into the
environment, hence only mimicking inanimate processes in
reverse order, since inanimate processes often visibly reduce
order.
* The lunar nodes in astrology are a concept that is quite
similar to a Möbius strip. The two nodes, physically the points
were the lunar orbit crosses the ecliptic, are always on
opposite spots in the zodiac. So they trade opposing attributes
with time, reminding of Yin-Yang. The nodes are also associated
with reincarnation, which is a form of loops in space and time,
and with happiness in life, which remind both of Kierkegaard's
considerations above.
* The concept of a Möbius strip is in a way so universal that
practically all other concepts in astrology besides the nodes
are somewhat related, too, but also none more than the other,
except maybe Mercury, including its retrograde phases.
* The universality of the Möbius strip makes it in my experience
a very helpful tool for learning to understand almost any given
thing by trying to relate it associatively to the strip.
Note that, since almost any thing relates to the strip, one is
often tempted to think that one has also learned something
specific about the strip, but that is usually not really so...
On Jan 1, 1:44 am, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> CFA wrote:
> >Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> >>On Dec 28, 6:42 pm, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> >>> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> >>> >On Dec 24, 2:40 pm, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> >>> >> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> >>> >> >Anmswer to the 100% Aquarian post.
> >>> >> >Thanks!
> >>> >> >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
>
> >>> >> "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
> >>> >> Jupiter?
>
> >>> >> Ken
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> cfa at alt dot net
>
> >>> >Only an outer planet in water element is low water and signifies the
> >>> >psychological overcompensation I just indicated at length. It always
> >>> >works.
> >>> >Art analogies work well:
> >>> >If you are going to paint a paiting in oil for example, and the
> >>> >primary colors will be blue and say red, then the canvas can be
> >>> >painted with those colors overall of it which gives us the "overall
> >>> >coloring" of the idea we will paint, likewise a persons chart has an
> >>> >overall coloring base we might say that gives us the "effect" of the
> >>> >base beliefs--these are shown by the Elements. The planets then become
> >>> >the figures and details painted on that overall effect.
> >>> >And no matter what you color over it, or what planets do what, the
> >>> >base will still be blue/red. And none of the overlay will ever stop
> >>> >that.
>
> >>> I didn't say that. What I said was Neptune squaring four personal
> >>> planets does not indicate a chart low in water.
>
> >>I am quite clear on what you said, it simply is irrelevant in
> >>analysis.
>
> >Then I'd like to suggest you're missing some huge chart cues.
>
> >>It is like saying a lake that is low on water is not
> >>"really" because there are lots of boats on it. Low water takes things
> >>personally in an attempt to "feel" things, but usually only in selfish
> >>terms and has difficulty empathising with others or really feeling
> >>what they are feeling.
>
> >And? I've seen that in people with water Sun signs- two with both Sun
> >and Moon in Pisces.
>
> >Ken
> >--
> >cfa at alt dot net
>
> >======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> > Both of you: Please provide sufficient argumenation instead of minimal bits of counterargument and rhetorical devices.
>
> I'm not disputing what the elemental table says. I don't think it's
> the only indicator of water (or lack thereof) in the chart, though.
>
> My experience is that major planetary aspects are at least as strong
> as sign placements (and of course nothing is canceled out when the
> aspect/s conflict with the signs). There are few more purely emotional
> aspects than a Moon/Venus conjunction square Neptune (aside from some
> kind of Pluto involvement). Neptune, as the ruler of Pisces in my
> world, would certainly seem to emphasize the emotional focus. For the
> classicists, in the chart in question, Jupiter, as the traditional
> ruler of Pisces, is part of the Aquarius stellium.
>
> To call this chart low in the water element is technically correct. To
> call it low in water indications seems like missing some major cues.
Happy New Year, everybody!
I have put a drawing for the "aquarius cubed" birth chart:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sz2q88EBsCI/AAAAAAAAAXc/WeOiTJXa0Tc/aquarius-cubed.gif
And here is a meager attempt by a novice (me) to approach the chart
traditionally. It is a nocturnal chart, so I first look at the moon
and then by sect at Venus and Mars. Moon and Venus are conjunct at 18
Aqu in the 5th (at least with Placidus houses), and, which I guess
would be significant, conjunct the southern lunar node. Mars is also
in Aquarius (at 2*) and also in the 5th.
As far as I understand the traditional approach, it is also very much
based on the elements, in particular their composition into dry/wet
and hot/cold as proposed by Aristotle. A traditional astrologer might
argue that basing the first step in chart analysis on a duality (day/
night, or male/female elements) is the right approach, can't get
simpler than a duality, triplicities (character) and quadruplicities
(elements) could be considered to come only later.
My approach to a chart is often more intuitive and graphical, I
usually look at the picture and try to feel something in it, to see
maybe what is special, which would, of course, in turn fit with how my
chart is interpreted in Alois' and Ed's approach and likely in many
others...
About two weeks ago, when the sun was in Sagittarius, I talked about
astrology with my father, who is a Taurus with Jupiter in Sagittarius
(let me leave info at that). He is in many ways very similar to me and
so when he told me - without the anger/fear that skeptics usually
display at least in public - that he thinks that astrology is not real
in the scientific sense, that it works in his feeling by evoking a
"resonance" in people when telling them things about their chart,
about themselves - what was I to argue there? If a complete stranger
had told me that, I would have most likely thought that it was because
he did not look at astrology the way I did and did not invest the
energy I did to do so.
That's exactly the point! :)
My father did not do that, simply because he was born a different day.
Had I be born then and since we are very similar otherwise, why would
I expect to have developed a different opinion than he has? And the
other way round. If I look at his chart, there is a majority of
planets in earth, and one in air, so compared to me his judgment is
likely more realistic and rational than mine, hence one would expect
that astrology does not work in the way that airplanes can be built or
so, but in another way that is not so much related to an earth/air
approach to the world. And scientific experiments so far sort of
confirm this earth/air view.
Still, personally I think and feel that this will be different, that a
scientific proof of astrology is still possible, but maybe that's just
me. Anyway, in my view the story above reminds me a lot of Saturn in
Libra and at a square to Pluto in Capricorn (father-son, duality that
is no exclusive, both views are consistent in relation to each other,
none can be called right) - and the Mercury station on the n.node fits
too, probably.
Again, just my two naive cents... ;)
)o+
On Jan 1, 7:42 pm, pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31 2009, 7:44 pm, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
>
>
>
> > CFA wrote:
> > >Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> > >>On Dec 28, 6:42 pm, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> > >>> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> > >>> >On Dec 24, 2:40 pm, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> > >>> >> Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> > >>> >> >Anmswer to the 100% Aquarian post.
> > >>> >> >Thanks!
> > >>> >> >> Only Neptune is in Water. Low water indicates
>
> > >>> >> "Low water" with Neptune square the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and
> > >>> >> Jupiter?
>
> > >>> >> Ken
> > >>> >> --
> > >>> >> cfa at alt dot net
>
> > >>> >Only an outer planet in water element is low water and signifies the
> > >>> >psychological overcompensation I just indicated at length. It always
> > >>> >works.
> > >>> >Art analogies work well:
> > >>> >If you are going to paint a paiting in oil for example, and the
> > >>> >primary colors will be blue and say red, then the canvas can be
> > >>> >painted with those colors overall of it which gives us the "overall
> > >>> >coloring" of the idea we will paint, likewise a persons chart has an
> > >>> >overall coloring base we might say that gives us the "effect" of the
> > >>> >base beliefs--these are shown by the Elements. The planets then become
> > >>> >the figures and details painted on that overall effect.
> > >>> >And no matter what you color over it, or what planets do what, the
> > >>> >base will still be blue/red. And none of the overlay will ever stop
> > >>> >that.
>
> > >>> I didn't say that. What I said was Neptune squaring four personal
> > >>> planets does not indicate a chart low in water.
>
> > >>I am quite clear on what you said, it simply is irrelevant in
> > >>analysis.
>
> > >Then I'd like to suggest you're missing some huge chart cues.
>
> > >>It is like saying a lake that is low on water is not
> > >>"really" because there are lots of boats on it. Low water takes things
> > >>personally in an attempt to "feel" things, but usually only in selfish
> > >>terms and has difficulty empathising with others or really feeling
> > >>what they are feeling.
>
> > >And? I've seen that in people with water Sun signs- two with both Sun
> > >and Moon in Pisces.
>
> > >Ken
> > >--
> > >cfa at alt dot net
>
> > >======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> > > Both of you: Please provide sufficient argumenation instead of minimal bits of counterargument and rhetorical devices.
>
> > I'm not disputing what the elemental table says. I don't think it's
> > the only indicator of water (or lack thereof) in the chart, though.
>
> > My experience is that major planetary aspects are at least as strong
> > as sign placements (and of course nothing is canceled out when the
> > aspect/s conflict with the signs). There are few more purely emotional
> > aspects than a Moon/Venus conjunction square Neptune (aside from some
> > kind of Pluto involvement). Neptune, as the ruler of Pisces in my
> > world, would certainly seem to emphasize the emotional focus. For the
> > classicists, in the chart in question, Jupiter, as the traditional
> > ruler of Pisces, is part of the Aquarius stellium.
>
> > To call this chart low in the water element is technically correct. To
> > call it low in water indications seems like missing some major cues.
>
> > Ken
> > --
> > cfa at alt dot net
>
> Not to mention the chart in question is very little different from
> the singer/songwriter Clint Black...: ) Rather than "predicting" what
> a chart should say about the native, I'd rather see how a chart's
> potential plays out in the flesh. :http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Black,_Clint
>
> A real "low Water" kind of fella:
> “I intend to keep writing Christmas songs. There's still a lot more
> about Christmas that can be captured and feel like old-time Christmas.
> A lot of the traditions haven't been explained in song.” Clint Black
>
> So, now, we can see how these natal planets in; aspects, signs,and
> houses, probably contribute to the behavior of an actual person--not
> just an imaginary one one conjured up by the individual bias of any
> particular astrologer. It is more "scientific" to do this kind of
> observation, I think, even if the scientific observation model cannot
> ever actually apply to a sample of one.
>
> The abstract expression of natal chart potentials is much more the
> key to understanding the art of astrology; rather than any
> hypothetically marketable predictions of life events, etc.. Clint
> Black's debut alum is entitled "Killin' Time." This expression is
> probably how the soul uses our human innate talent for symbolic
> alchemy to create art--communicable spirit. The artist converts, say,
> natal Mars conjucnt Saturn into an expressible abstraction by way of
> their square to Neptune. Astrological timing and literalism is like
> religious fundamentalism...just silly, really...:) We cannot know that
> which we cannot know. I say, too bad, suck it up, live with it.....: )
>
> Rog
Magic :)
In "my book" what I see/perceive about Clint Black in public fits with
my way of seeing his chart: Lots of planets in Aquarius (air->water in
my model), hence a great intellectual urge to give to others (sort of
"emulate water", c.f. link with water pourer in my first post here),
but little water in one's chart to take something to give from, hence
Neptune remains as lone source of water...
Actually some planets are in other houses than for the unknown
California native, so maybe I am carrying it too far, but the unknown
California native might be a more talented musician and an even more
ferocious Republican than Clint Black ?
Of course, that's just my limited relative perception of persons and
charts... Maybe a look Clint Black's wife's chart would reveal some
other sources of water ?
)o+
On Jan 3, 2:26 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
[...]
> The problem with the other two posters perspective is this:
> Without the intention of derogating anyone (not a personal attack just
> an analytical observation), Roger wants to make it a competition and
> argue against my philosophies of self-empowerment etc. and is hung up
> on his perception that I am some sort of egomaniac and so his
> judgement is clouded and biased from his own power trips being
> triggered and is telling us more of himself than the chart at hand (or
> me). Ken wants to include information that WILL be included in the
> analysis, but he jumps to it without due diligence and doesn't seem to
> be able to know how to integrate the points he makes that I
> acknowledge but that I disagree with as to their meaning and function.
> The chart is not static because the person is not. It can be seen at
> all of the persons possible developmental levels and so one must be
> ready for the expression of any one of them from the "unknown person".
> When a client comes in with the chart above all we can glean from it
> is potentials and probabilities, there is no "that's the way it is."
> There is however a method by which we can determine the BASIS for the
> probabilities, and the more "scientifically" and organized and
> psychologically feasible that is, the more likely we are to be
> accurate with the clear primary identity status and therefore more
> able to focus on the clients needs (and future) during the
> consultation rather than making it a challenge to see if we are gonna
> get it "right." Because that is not 100% possible anyway and that is a
> waste of ego exercise.
> All I am trying to point out is that this person (by simply counting
> Elements) will be focused on the Aquarian idea of structured ideology
> (like a hippie) in an airy way to promote some "new or freer" way of
> thinking, and will be MISSING simple compassion or intuited empathy
> that does not invite the ideology they are hung up on. Therefore they
> will look very understanding and aware, but not really moved by much
> more than the ideology concepts they need.
> When we place the planetary aspects OVER that they become the VEHICLE
> by which this person experiences developmental tension and fulfillment
> of the initial deductions, i.e., the Neptune square is REINFORCING our
> initial deduction (not contradictory) because it reflects that the
> person needs to DEVELOP that idea, so there is no conflict in what I
> am saying, but you cannot jump to that like a novice may do:-) without
> securing the rational foundation to proceed with first. This is why
> astrology makes little headway in realistic application because the
> process is and should be rigorous FIRST and speculative second.
> I hope that explains the idea of which I was trying to get to better
> and I have offended no one in the process. Just telling it as I see
> it.
The method you use/describe is very simple and seems to work, so it
would make *at least* a good candidate for a "canonical approach" to
astrology in the sense in which wikipedia defines the word: "educed to
the simplest and most significant form possible without loss of
generality" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical). Hence likely
also a good starting hypothesis for formal tests of astrology, and, of
course, pragmatically might be used as a standard approach by many
astrologers in the future, if it gives best known average results -
also because it is easily taught and applied, i.e. little room for
mistake on the side of astrologer or client. Anyway, At least I will
likely count elements and characters in birth charts more often in the
future.
)o+
> Thanks
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2009 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Artworkshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
> The SUNhttp://www.edmondwollmann.com/
>
> ======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> To those whom it may concern: Please focus upon astrology; the reason for most to read this group.
I wrote:
> On Dec 11, 7:03 am, "A B" <a@a> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The following appeared on alt.astrology at the end of October. I asked if I
> > could copy it to this group, and the OP said yes. That was a week ago, and
> > I've only just remembered!
> > It's a rather remarkable birth chart. Sun, Moon and five planets all in
> > Aquarius. Here's the data:
>
> > "druebeall" <ruserious..@gmail.com> wrote on 25th October:
>
> > > Here is my info:
> > > DOB: 02/04/1962 @ 8:22 pm,
> > > POB: Lynwood, ca. LOS ANGELES COUNTY
> > > Thanks
>
> > I'll add the reply I made at the time:
> > On Nov 1, 12:07 pm, "A B" <a@a> wrote:
>
> > > Wow. I see what you mean. That's the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars,
> > > Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius. Not quite "100% Aquarian", because Uranus,
> > > Neptune and Pluto aren't in Aquarius, not to mention the Ascendant and
> > > Midheaven. But pretty close. Closer than I've ever come across, in fact.
> > > The only other chart I've seen that's at all like this is the 5th of May
> > > 2000, when nearly everything was in Taurus - and I don't actually know
> > > anyone born then. I was just looking it up on account of something
> > > somebody
> > > said.
>
> > Hope some of you find this an interesting chart to have a go at.
> > A. B.
>
> At first sight tells me "Woodstock", Ura/n.node Leo
> (musical revolution, expression) on a collective
> background (all these planets in Aquarius), announced
> as "An Aquarian Exposition: 3 Days of Peace & Music":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_Festival
>
> I remember also a discussion in ca. 2003 here with
> Chris Mitchel, thread related to Ages; he mentioned a
> book by a Jewish rabbi about astrology(!), idea was
> ca. that Saturn passes down message of the gods
> at conjunction ("meeting") with inner planets, Jupiter
> first - so crucial are maybe Sat/Jup conjunction(s)
> earlier...
Here are links to the mentioned thread and directly to the post with
most info about the mentioned book:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/a2cde29e15c271e5/67e20d3f3a9bba7c
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/8afe41e3c948bfce
Chris Mitchell quotes also the following from the book there:
"...There is a great concern over the exact date which will begin the
Age of Aquarius. If our ancestors [the ancient Israelites] were
correct, it is very easy to determine that date. Remember that there
is one extra Jupiter-Saturn conjunction that heralds the beginning of
every new Prophetic Age. That conjunction, a Magnificent Conjunction,
occurred on February 19, 1961 at 28 Capricorn, marking the fourth
conjunction in the Earth triplicity and the end of the age of Pisces.
The new conjunction in 1981 on New Years Day almost at midnight of New
Year's Eve, will be a Great Conjunction in Libra, marking both a
change in triplicities and the arrival of the Age of Aquarius..."
)o+
On Jan 14, 3:56 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> A B wrote:
>
> > I'm wrestling with another mundane chart at the moment, and have hit
> > something I don't seem to have come across before.
> > I'd like your opinions on what astrological factors might indicate the
> > opening or revealing of something that had been shut up for a long time.
> > Nothing metaphorical here, just quite literally opening something (an
> > underground chamber, to be precise) to reveal the hidden contents. The more
> > explanation you give, the better pleased I'll be!
> > Also, does anyone have any views on what might represent seeing something?
> > I know Hermes associates sight with fire signs.
> > Thanks,
> > A. B.
>
> Uranus opens things up or reveals.
Yes, Uranus had been mentioned as a guess before (by Kjell), and as it
turned out later in the thread,
A.B. on December 7th:
: All right, mystery over. It WAS Tutankamun's tomb I was doing - the
26th of
: November, when they opened the antechamber and "saw wonderful
things".
: That's why I wanted associations with seeing - I always like to have
a look
: for the soundbite, it's surprising how often it's there.
Uranus was certainly not unrelated to that event (conjunct moon as
ruler of the 4th, and at a close trine to Pluto, which was conjunct
*many* things then...).
Once more a link to the chart with most mentioned connections plotted:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/SzNuVQTdJbI/AAAAAAAAAWM/L-CaU4Qa50U/king-tut-antechamber-opening.gif&usg=AFQjCNGX1iyxfFfdGZ-ZJEnUEjXQVZAoRw
This is actually one of my favorite threads... :)
)o+
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Articleshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/info.htm
> Artworkshttp://www.e-wollmann.com/TOC.htm
I wrote:
> (PS: My post yesterday was maybe a bit too early with exact
> details regarding me, but with Mercury retrograde, I guess I
> better wait until the fog eventually clears up.......)
The fog has cleaned up: As it turns out, there are 3-5 different
things regarding my health, depending how exactly you count, all of
them of an immediate physical/literal nature that have been confirmed
with different medical methods. Practically all of them by themselves
alone would have been something medium or less, and all can usually be
healed to a large degree with proper care, but together they brought
me quite down and it might take up to a year or so of slow careful
progress to get close to being fully fit again, but so far I am
confident. What helps a lot at least for about two hours afterwards,
is swimming, which I would also relate to my Saturn/Cheiron in late
Pisces and hence also with Uranus conjunct Cheiron now (as a Leo sun I
have never been much of a swimmer). I can see more things, like e.g
the current Saturn-Pluto square which likely has made things more
dramatic and urgent, my stellion in Cancer in the 12th lead by Jupiter
which probably made it possible to carry on so many things without
much trouble for years (and is at the s.node now), and last, but in my
feeling probably most signifantly, my south node firdaria until this
August... In tht sense, "forget yourself and just move on step by
step", I guess, then maybe the "magic pearl" will slowly reappear...
Of course, as always for me, much easier to see correlations after the
facts, and a more detailed look at the individual diseases and their
timing would certainly be possible, but maybe some other time...
Thanks again everybody,
)o+
On Jan 15, 10:06 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> CFA wrote:
> > Water is in their chart, so emotional experiences are in their life,
>
> I did not say anything about emotional experiences. The water element
> allows us to understand others from an empathic sensitivity. Aquarius is
> the opposite of Leo, social accolade is more importqant to them for
> their intellect, not empathic support of others--unless it is in a
> humanitarian mode (like Obama and the Haiti thing now Aquarius rising)
> but he is standing in front of others cheerleading to do a "social
> thing" he is not there in a tent as an unknown supporting the head of a
> person.
In my model of the star signs, Aquarius is the last phase in a
transition fire->air->water, i.e. mainly the transition air->water at
a late stage with already lots of water. But it is "water" that
emerges out of a life's intellectual (air) experience, it is mainly
aimed at teaching, at imposing some kind of "plan" or "pattern" onto
humanity as a whole in the interest to make things better for most of
them, and often completely disregarding any kind of individual
problems with that. So, empathy with the collective, but very little
empathy with specific individuals. Certainly a little bit exaggerated
as a sole description of Aquarius, but not without a true core in my
personal opinion...
Take the following quote by Bertold Brecht (sun/Venus in Aquarius):
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brecht,_Bertold
* Wenn Herr K. einen Menschen liebte
*
* "Was tun Sie",wurde Herr K. gefragt, "wenn
* Sie einen Menschen lieben?" "Ich mache einen
* Entwurf von ihm", sagte Herr K, "und sorge,
* dass er ihm ähnlich wird". "Wer, der Entwurf?"
* "Nein", sagte Herr K., "Der Mensch".
-- Geschichten vom Herr Keuner
Translation ("man" in the sense of human being, joke cannot be
translated fully, trick is that "plan" and "man" could both be meant
by the pronoun "er" above, ie. by "he" or "it" below...):
* When Mr. K. loved a man
*
* "What do you do", Mr. K. was asked, "when
* you love a man?" "I make a plan of him",
* said Mr. K., "and take care that he/it becomes
* more like he/it". "Who, the plan?"
* "No", said Mr. K., "the man".
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
I wrote:
> Take the following quote by Bertold Brecht (sun/Venus in Aquarius):
>
> http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brecht,_Bertold
In that context, of course, Venus closely conjunct the sun in Bert
Brecht's chart, and both at a trine to Pluto and Neptune in Gemini,
can probably not be disregarded... So maybe not 100% Aquarian ? ;)
)o+
On Jan 17, 8:24 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Jan 16, 10:08 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I wrote:
> > > Take the following quote by Bertold Brecht (sun/Venus in Aquarius):
>
> > > http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brecht,_Bertold
>
> > In that context, of course, Venus closely conjunct the sun in Bert
> > Brecht's chart, and both at a trine to Pluto and Neptune in Gemini,
> > can probably not be disregarded... So maybe not 100% Aquarian ? ;)
>
> > )o+
>
> I can't read those types of charts, I see no water, is that correct?
Yes, at least as far as planets up to Pluto and n.node are concerned
(the s.node is a 25 Cancer, Cheiron at 28 Scorpio, no angles in
water).
Side remark regarding "angles": Reminds me that the "100% Aquarian"
chart is in LA, "the angels", which reminds a lot of "low
water" (William Mullholland, movie Chinatown, incl. Polanski's arrest
for something that happened at Mullholland drive) and of
"Neptune" (earthquakes, god ruling somewhat unhappily the sea). So no
water in "the angles" (LA)... Again the theme of water being "low" and
still being a critical, non negligible element. Jupiter is just about
to move into Pisces - again the little brother is somewhat ahead of
Neptune... Wonder how Neptune in Pisces will be - really such
desastrous inondatations and migrations due to rising sea levels or
mainly things happening in day or night dreams ? I guess the world
could use more of the latter.
Second side remark: The people in the regions where there was the
Tsunami a few years ago actually speak of "the two tsunamis", the real
one and then the invasion by all the helping organisations. Difficult
to help, it is ("Yoda"). Saw a movie today (picked a short one, cannot
sit that long during the day), about a Swiss guy, Ernst Aebi, born
1938 (could not find more info) and moved to NY and helped in the
1980s to build a garden with fruit and a school and a hotel in a place
a bit north of Timbuktu. Put a lot of effort into it and things
emerged beautifully, but then 3 years later a civil war destroyed all.
When he returned in about last year or so, all that was left was some
trees that had managed to survive in the desert (wells go about 60
meters deep there), and that kind of tree was one that he had brought
from Hawaii! Looked very African already there, because the camels had
eaten all leaves below a certain line.
All in all, I guess again the theme of Neptune/Poseidon wanting to
make literal gains of solid earth, but not managing to do so usually,
only temporary gains, like a lot of globalisation (Nep in Aqu, besides
some other things), I suspect. Lost Athens to Athene, who I associate
maybe most to Virgo, so back to California again ? I don't know in the
end, maybe just a dream ? :)
> Air signs deal in abstractions, ideas, concepts. Water signs support
> and nurture.
> Air signs talk about the locomotive aspects of your feet and how they
> move you into different social arenas, Water signs rub them if they
> are sore, or want to set them if they are broken.
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Articleshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/info.htm
> Artworkshttp://www.e-wollmann.com/TOC.htm
> So the structuring of a social sign is watery? I am trying to
> understand what you are saying. Please don't take offense.
No offense at all. :)
No the idea in my model is that different star signs are stages in a
transition between the 4 elements in the cycle that Aristotle proposed
(fire<->air<->water<->earth<->fire<->...). For air signs, the
transition is fire-air-water in the model. In the model, Gemini is
mostly fire (quick, random, learning), Aquarius is most water
(constant like rain, teaching), Libra is in between, balancing fire
and water.
See this thread for more details:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/32c057c5de68367a
Personally I think there is something to the model. I come originally
from Liz Greene's descriptions of the star signs in The Astrology of
Fate and other works by her, i.e. originally heavily influenced by the
mythology and, I guess indirectly, ideas by Jung.
I don't think my model really speaks against your approach of
"counting elements", which I think as an approach is genuinely "more
equal" than anything else I know, but my model might relativate it a
little bit as a secondary effect (i.e. something that comes after
counting elements in my view). Aquarius remains mainly an air sign,
the empathy is sort of "emulated" or at most learned in life, but not
felt as immediately and deeply as a water sign could, even though I
think Aquarius has a fair chance to learn to get quite close.
At any rate, just as I want my house doctor to look at certain things
when I visit him/her, I would certainly welcome my "house astrologer"
to count elements/characters first and then start to look at more.
I can see some indirect advantages to an almost "aspects only" apprach
as Ken/CFA proposed: Eliminates critisism related to precession (signs
don't count) or sun sign astrology ("I know two guys who are both
Virgo and they could not be more different persons"), and maybe -
since Richard Nolle also once said something into this direction here
- maybe an "aspects only" approach might be easiest for proving parts
of astrology in scientific experiments - or maybe not, but at least in
that sense, I could understand why someone would *focus* on them.
Sorry, I have a habit of cramming lots of ideas into posts...
)o+
I quoted/wrote:
> > So the structuring of a social sign is watery? I am trying to
> > understand what you are saying. Please don't take offense.
>
> No offense at all. :)
Sorry, what I had actually wanted to quote for my reply below was
this:
> > Just so I am clear, you are saying Aquarius is more "watery" than Leo
> > because it is closer to Pisces?
Sorry for the mixup and I hope it will not create too much confusion.
)o+
> No the idea in my model is that different star signs are stages in a
> transition between the 4 elements in the cycle that Aristotle proposed
> (fire<->air<->water<->earth<->fire<->...). For air signs, the
> transition is fire-air-water in the model. In the model, Gemini is
> mostly fire (quick, random, learning), Aquarius is most water
> (constant like rain, teaching), Libra is in between, balancing fire
> and water.
>
> See this thread for more details:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
>
> Personally I think there is something to the model. I come originally
> from Liz Greene's descriptions of the star signs in The Astrology of
> Fate and other works by her, i.e. originally heavily influenced by the
> mythology and, I guess indirectly, ideas by Jung.
>
> I don't think my model really speaks against your approach of
> "counting elements", which I think as an approach is genuinely "more
> equal" than anything else I know, but my model might relativate it a
> little bit as a secondary effect (i.e. something that comes after
> counting elements in my view). Aquarius remains mainly an air sign,
> the empathy is sort of "emulated" or at most learned in life, but not
> felt as immediately and deeply as a water sign could, even though I
> think Aquarius has a fair chance to learn to get quite close.
>
> At any rate, just as I want my house doctor to look at certain things
> when I visit him/her, I would certainly welcome my "house astrologer"
> to count elements/characters first and then start to look at more.
>
> I can see some indirect advantages to an almost "aspects only" apprach
> as Ken/CFA proposed: Eliminates critisism related to precession (signs
> don't count) or sun sign astrology ("I know two guys who are both
> Virgo and they could not be more different persons"), and maybe -
> since Richard Nolle also once said something into this direction here
> - maybe an "aspects only" approach might be easiest for proving parts
> of astrology in scientific experiments - or maybe not, but at least in
> that sense, I could understand why someone would *focus* on them.
>
> Sorry, I have a habit of cramming lots of ideas into posts...
>
> )o+
On Jan 22, 10:38 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Todd Carnes wrote:
>
> > "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:4B4E9C88.321D@earthlink.net...
> > > Todd Carnes wrote:
>
> > >> I finally got my download page working again. The following ebooks are
> > >> currently available for download fromhttp://carnesoft.net...
> > [snip]
>
> > > Wow, thanks for that.
> > You're welcome.
>
> Mine is now available in ebook format, but sorry, not for free:-)
Would that be the book: http://www.astroconsulting.com/prod01.htm ?
)o+
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Articleshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/info.htm
> Artworkshttp://www.e-wollmann.com/TOC.htm
On Dec 28 2009, 4:25 pm, VSRB <vsrbhos...@rediffmail.com> wrote:
> I am male in India
>
> DOB - 29/11/1972
> Time - 12:30:00 PM
> Place - Pune, Maharashtra, India
>
> Today in early morning about 6 AM approximately I saw one dream. In
> dream, I saw that one doctor forcefully examining me and told me that
> you have a mouth cancer. For this examination other doctors charging
> about Rs. 50,000/-, and I will charge you only Rs. 200-250/-.
>
> Approximately about last 19-20 years I regularly eating tobacco
> ( about 250 gms daily ).
>
> Generally I don't see the dreams in sleep. ( 1 or 2 Dreams Per 2-3
> Months).
>
> One thing you have to consider -
> At the time of 26/11 attack on Taj Hotel, Mumbai, I saw one dream
> about 1:10 PM mid-night same day when attack is going on, but I don't
> have any idea. I remember that I was not in deep sleep nor awake. In
> this dream, three-four police men asked me that, have you seen the
> killers of ATC Chief Mr. Hemant Karkare?
> After this dream I suddenly got awake and neglected the dream.
>
> In morning I saw the news paper and surprised when I saw the news of
> death of Mr. Karkare. After two days in one other news paper I saw one
> news of Mr Karkare's time of death, which was about Midnight 1:10 to
> 1:20 PM.
>
> NOW MY QUESTION IS,
>
> 1) WILL TODAY'S DREAM BECOME TRUE? SHOULD I HAVE A FEAR OF SERIOUS
> ILLNESS LIKE CANCER, HEART DISSES ETC.?
> 2) WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ABOUT BOTH DREAMS?
> 3) WHICHEVER DREAMS WE SAW, ARE THEY HAVE ANY MEANINGS OR IT IS ONLY
> GAME OF OUR MIND?
>
> Please Guide me.
>
> VSR Bhosale
Not being a vedic astrologer (I hope that is the right term), I cannot
give you any specific predictions.
But I noticed one thing. The first dream was about a collective event,
an event that made it to the news and probably concerned the minds of
many people in the area. The second dream is at least superficially
something about your personal health. I have had dreams of both kind
and at least in my life it was mainly the former where I found clear
correlations with the future sometime after the dream. So, I think
there might be not so much danger, but, of course, if you can easily
afford it and feel like it, there is nothing that speaks against
visiting a doctor, "just in case".
Best wishes,
)o+
On Jan 22, 10:41 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> > I quoted/wrote:
> > > > So the structuring of a social sign is watery? I am trying to
> > > > understand what you are saying. Please don't take offense.
>
> > > No offense at all. :)
>
> > Sorry, what I had actually wanted to quote for my reply below was
> > this:
> > > > Just so I am clear, you are saying Aquarius is more "watery" than Leo
> > > > because it is closer to Pisces?
>
> > Sorry for the mixup and I hope it will not create too much confusion.
>
> > )o+
>
> > > No the idea in my model is that different star signs are stages in a
> > > transition between the 4 elements in the cycle that Aristotle proposed
> > > (fire<->air<->water<->earth<->fire<->...). For air signs, the
> > > transition is fire-air-water in the model. In the model, Gemini is
> > > mostly fire (quick, random, learning), Aquarius is most water
> > > (constant like rain, teaching), Libra is in between, balancing fire
> > > and water.
>
> Yes, I have the progression of the evolution of the Zodiac in my book
> and agree with it, but that is a collective discernment and has little
> to do with the Element count used in analysis.
>
>
>
> > > See this thread for more details:
>
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
>
> > > Personally I think there is something to the model. I come originally
> > > from Liz Greene's descriptions of the star signs in The Astrology of
> > > Fate and other works by her, i.e. originally heavily influenced by the
> > > mythology and, I guess indirectly, ideas by Jung.
>
> > > I don't think my model really speaks against your approach of
> > > "counting elements", which I think as an approach is genuinely "more
> > > equal" than anything else I know, but my model might relativate it a
> > > little bit as a secondary effect (i.e. something that comes after
> > > counting elements in my view). Aquarius remains mainly an air sign,
> > > the empathy is sort of "emulated" or at most learned in life, but not
> > > felt as immediately and deeply as a water sign could, even though I
> > > think Aquarius has a fair chance to learn to get quite close.
>
> Well rarely do we find a complete lack of an element, but when we do it
> is clearly manifested in behavior.
>
> > > At any rate, just as I want my house doctor to look at certain things
> > > when I visit him/her, I would certainly welcome my "house astrologer"
> > > to count elements/characters first and then start to look at more.
>
> As I explain in my book, it must start this way and then is compiled
> into a persona, without which we cannot hope to predict anything.
> We usually find the SAME message throughout the chart, and counting
> elements is the best way to get on that trail so to speak.
>
> > > I can see some indirect advantages to an almost "aspects only" apprach
> > > as Ken/CFA proposed: Eliminates critisism related to precession (signs
> > > don't count) or sun sign astrology ("I know two guys who are both
> > > Virgo and they could not be more different persons"), and maybe -
> > > since Richard Nolle also once said something into this direction here
> > > - maybe an "aspects only" approach might be easiest for proving parts
> > > of astrology in scientific experiments - or maybe not, but at least in
> > > that sense, I could understand why someone would *focus* on them.
>
> > > Sorry, I have a habit of cramming lots of ideas into posts...
>
> > > )o+
>
> There is a large focus on them, AFTER the element count, hemisphere
> emphasis, and MODE count which we haven't even gotten to yet.
> Thanks
Thanks, too. :)
If you find the leisure sometime, I can still recommend to take a look
at my model of the 12 star signs in terms of transformation between
the elements. Certainly, I agree, my model comes *after* counting
elements and modes/characters when looking at a chart or likely even
just when considering a single one of the 12 star signs, but if you
look at my model more closely, it goes beyond a progression of the
three star signs per element, in the sense "gemini-young, libra-adult,
aquarius-old", which is I guess what you meant with "I have the
progression of the evolution of the Zodiac in my book"*, while I do
associate that progression also with a transformation between
elements, at least in the sense, that Gemini comes relatively closely
from fire and Aquarius is already quite close to water, even though I
would also, as you say, still count, say, Aquarius fully for the
element air in the element count. Actually this became only clear to
me in the course of this thread, so thanks everybody for posting. I
also agree that usually the same themes can be found in several "
places" or from several points of view in a chart. The strongest point
of my model, in my view, is that it fits so well with a lot of the
mythology that is usually associated with the star signs - likely
because a myth usually describes a story, going from somewhere to
elsewhere, which is a priori not incompatible with a transformation
between elements. In that sense, I consider my model more canonical or
"more equal" than the myths associated with them, although in other
ways, of course, mythology remains very likely unparalleled...
(* Or did you mean that you already associate Gemini-Libra-Aquarius
with a transformation fire-air-water?)
)o+
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Articleshttp://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/info.htm
> Artworkshttp://www.e-wollmann.com/TOC.htm
I wrote:
> On Jan 22, 10:38 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> [...]
> > > Mine is now available in ebook format, but sorry, not for free:-)
>
> Would that be the book: http://www.astroconsulting.com/prod01.htm ?
I guess, so, I have just ordered a copy (paperback, not ebook):
http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00359.htm
Why am I not astonished to see the Eye of Horus in the center of the
zodiac of the cover ? ;)
(c.f. "What indicates something being opened up?" thread)
http://atlasbooks.insidethecover.com/widget/?isbn=9780966353211&cpid=CHP00062WID
Thanks for taking the time to post here, Ed, I had seen your posts
over the years at alt.astrology (mainly), but somehow missed what I
feel is quite extraordinary quality in your works.
(One indirect exception is that I found Jean Richer's "geographie
sacree du monde grec" via your web site - actually Jean Richer is a
bit like me (AC+MC), just opposite (sun+moon):
Jean Richer's birth chart: http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/9mx3s7vLTts2.htm
My birth chart: http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sw_wR3Qj60I/AAAAAAAAACc/o1s4ErIFCho/birthchart.gif
But I like his work, does not feel opposite to me, maybe due to very
similar AC/MC. I especially liked the chapter about the lion of Iulis
in his book, which seems to have been originally published close to my
birth (1967 vs. 1966).
)o+
Hi everybody,
What is a feeling? Is it something that is always *shared*
between two or more people or is it as contemporary science
would conclude, just a local illusion in everybody's brain
to think that others would really care about how you feel ?
The following is a rather lengthy and in my feeling maybe
also too clumsy attempt to describe how in a world in which
there would actually be *shared feelings*, astrology, some
form of telepathy, precognition, divination, a collective
unconscious, a God or Gods, and maybe even some form of
"intelligent design" (I am far from being a christian
religious fundamentalist), would fit in quite unformly and
naturally, and even be reconciled with science!
I hope someday I will be able to describe the idea in a more
direct and natural way, that is maybe not so much tied to
contemporary views in different fragments of this world today.
Maybe then it will appear less to be just another Aquarian
Utopia... (Not too bad, the worst about Utopias is arguably
usually the attempts to realize them.)
In that sense, maybe an earlier version with replies by
Apollia is even more accessible, at least intitially:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/2659729d71e120c7
(This is also the last of my large writings in 2009; was
definitely too much to try to do and even the quality is
not really what it might have been with less words...)
Enjoy!
)o+
--
[continued from part 1]
Simplicity
Time for a somewhat more critical look. Is it really necessary
to postulate long-range telepathic connections ? What would
already be expected with current physics ?
It looks like a lot could already be explained by postulating
two things, which are in principle even generally accepted: When
people meet, they not only exchange conscious information, but a
lot also happens unconsciously, is hidden in intonation and
gestures etc. And people could simply model in their own brains
how they would expect someone they love to react in a given
situation. Experience shows that such expectations are often,
but not always correct. In that case, if you walked out of the
room, closed your eyes, etc., feeling someone would be an
illusion, but based on lots of previously stored information, of
which you would mostly only unconsciously be aware.
Practically all of the mentioned phenomena could still exist in
this case. Expressed in terms of network technology, a real-time
network would have simply been replaced by a store-and-forward
network !
Experiment
The postulate of long-range telepathic connections violates
explicitly two key assumptions in science: That effects can be
studied in isolation and that nature is less intelligent than we
are. Imagine a kid playing with ants, letting them walk onto
leaves and moving them around. The ants would have very little
chance to understand what is happening and certainly not why.
Imagine an experiment in which two lovers are separated (with
their consent) to different continents into labs in the desert
below ground. Give one of them something spicy to eat and
measure brain activities of both lovers. Normally, you would say
that if you find correlations, you have proven the existence of
direct telepathic connections between people and, if not, that
such a connection is very unlikely to exist.
Not necessarily in the second case, since collective resistance,
i.e. the collective unconscious not wanting us to know, could
have influenced the lovers enough to wash out any significant
results. No certainty without isolation.
Informally, the subjective impression that memories of very
emotional events evoke a lot less feelings when the person who
shared them is no longer emotionally related or even dead, hints
subjectively more at a direct connection than not, i.e. if you
remembered something like that, part of the unconscious
communication that took place then, would actually be repeated,
not just remembered. See also Kierkegaard's Repetition in that
respect.
Indirect Approaches
Maybe a more indirect approach could help to shed more light
onto these issues. Previous experiments regarding astrology have
essentially yielded negative results. I can see two possible
reasons for this.
Predictions by astrologers are usually in prose form, often
using quite flowery language. It is very difficult to translate
this material into a formal set of concrete predictions that is
then not too simplistic to work. And the collective unconscious
could guide researchers into directions where nothing will be
found.
In my personal experience, astrology works, but formalization is
quite difficult. Ideal would be a very simple model that still
makes lots of predictions and lots of data to apply it to. This
would make it difficult, hopefully impossible, for the
collective unconscious to hide its structures.
I think, I have found an interesting candidate system suitable
for such experiments, see rest of this site.
A great phenomenological diversity does not necessarily prevent
researchers from finding and proving a simple, formal theory.
Take chemistry, for example, which used to be a craft surrounded
by many untrue superstitions only a few hundred years ago.
Chemical reactions can totally change the properties of the
original substances, like a very aggressive gas like clorine
together with a metal that takes fire when in contact with water
like sodium forming together (ionized) just regular salt. And,
yet, chemistry is today an exact science that is understood from
first principles.
I would use the internet itself as a data source for
experiments. All data is already digitized and could be made
available by linking into large search engines, with consent.
Instead of birth data for real people, I would use founding
dates of web sites or the moment a first usenet post was made
using a given screen name.
Usenet seems especially suited for such experiments, also since
online conversations have a tendency to be somewhat repetitive
and stereotypical, which would most likely make analysis easier.
Specifically, the idea would be to correlate content and timing
of subsequent posts with what astrology would predict by
interpreting the chart of the first post under a given screen
name. In my personal experience, different screen names make a
difference even when the same physical poster is behind them.
Anima Mundi
Let me playfully expand the scope all the way: Assume that all
matter, considered living or not by humans, would be alive and
conscious to some degree and that it would all be
interconnected. Joe, for example, would be much more alive and
conscious than his car keys, but even these keys would have a
little life and consciousness in them.
This is just the very old idea of a living world, of an anima
mundi or Plato's world soul.
Virtual Particles and Entanglement
The following is maybe more food for thought for physicists than
directly tangible for others. It is a somewhat far fetched
interpretation of quantum field theory that is not in direct
disagreement with experiment, but is also at the moment not
specific enough to be formally tested.
In quantum field theories, forces are mediated by the exchange
of so-called virtual particles. Virtual particles are
mathematical constructs that appear in calculations and share
some abstract properties with real particles, hence the
"particle" in their name. They interact with observed particles
and with each other, but by definition never with a measurement
apparatus, hence "virtual".
This makes it somewhat a matter of taste whether they should be
considered something that actually exists or just mathematical
tools. On the other hand, real particles in quantum field
theories are also quite abstract entities. Nobody has ever seen
a neutrino directly, nor even an electron, since it is photons
that reach the eyes. The rest is just a lot of logic based on
experiments and a few general axioms.
Unlike real particles, virtual particles are not bound by the
speed of light. The point in space and time where they are
created and the point where they are destroyed can be a
spacelike distance apart, i.e. farther apart than a real
particle could fly at the speed of light or slower. This implies
by the theory of relativity that which way the virtual particle
"went" is entirely a matter of perspective. One observer would
"see" the negative charge of an electron flying from A to B, but
another observer in relative motion to the first would "see" the
opposite charge, namely a positron flying the opposite way, from
B to A.
In that sense, it is not so that something is transported from A
to B or the opposite way, but it is still so that A and B are
connected. This reminds a lot of entanglement in quantum
mechanics, like in the setup of the Einstein-Podolski-Rosen
(EPR) paradox, as follows.
Two photons with entangled polarization fly into opposite
directions. Two labs on each side, possibly light years apart
from each other, let the photons fly through polarization
filters with adjustable angle and into detectors. It has been
shown that experimental results exclude any local hidden
variable theories, i.e. theories in which both photons and
detectors have well-defined properties independent of
measurement and there is no faster-than-light communication
between the two labs, and even some non-local theories can
effectively be excluded.
What if entanglement and virtual particles were two separate
manifestations of the same underlying thing ?
Entanglement and Feelings
Maybe virtual particles or quantum mechanical entanglement would
be the mechanisms by which people could unconsciously
"communicate" ?
More precisely, there would not be any communication from A to B
or B to A, instead information would simply be shared. Joe's
love for Heather and vice versa would not be based on
unconsciously exchanged information, but they would simply share
some views and feelings.
Maybe people could create coherent quantum states in their
brains when they meet - how exactly would have to be explained -
and then, even when separated, could merely by thinking make
measurements with results that would then be bound to be
mutually correlated.
Conversely, would virtual particles maybe correspond to
unconscious, collective activities, while real particles would
be related to individual consciousness ?
leads
* In terms of my definition of the elements as presented in the
section elementary philosophy, it would almost be expected that
things in the mind are not as clearly separated as things in the
outer world. The inner elements, emi and eri, are softer than
the two outer elements, emo and ero, which suggests inside more
fluidity, a tendency to mix. A priori such mixing would not have
to be restricted to the observing individual, nor has a
separation into different individuals been part of the initial
considerations. The cultural equivalents of emi and eri, water
and air, are associated with feelings and with communication or
thinking, respectively. In that sense, feelings could be
interpreted as the result of also unconscious communication, in
contrast to conscious communication channels.
* In The Astrology of Fate (Weiser, 1984), astrologer and
psychologist Liz Greene provides many interesting considerations
around the nature of fate, of which many make lots of sense in
terms of the Gedankenexperiment here.
* In A few new discoveries in physics, I am considerably more
specific in my hypotheses how long-range feelings could be
related to the exchange of virtual particles and the exact
nature of these virtual particles. See archive (odyssey.zip).
* Make your own: There are many nonscientific topics that can be
understood more clearly in terms of this Gedankenexperiment, a
lot more than what has been touched so far.
Hi everybody,
What is a feeling? Is it something that is always *shared*
between two or more people or is it as contemporary science
would conclude, just a local illusion in everybody's brain
to think that others would really care about how you feel ?
The following is a rather lengthy and in my feeling maybe
also too clumsy attempt to describe how in a world in which
there would actually be *shared feelings*, astrology, some
form of telepathy, precognition, divination, a collective
unconscious, a God or Gods, and maybe even some form of
"intelligent design" (I am far from being a christian
religious fundamentalist), would fit in quite unformly and
naturally, and even be reconciled with science!
I hope someday I will be able to describe the idea in a more
direct and natural way, that is maybe not so much tied to
contemporary views in different fragments of this world today.
Maybe then it will appear less to be just another Aquarian
Utopia... (Not too bad, the worst about Utopias is arguably
usually the attempts to realize them.)
In that sense, maybe an earlier version with replies by
Apollia is even more accessible, at least intitially:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/2659729d71e120c7
(This is also the last of my large writings in 2009; was
definitely too much to try to do and even the quality is
not really what it might have been with less words...)
Enjoy!
)o+
--
long-range feelings
Everyday perceptions and science draw two completely different
pictures of what feelings are.
According to contemporary science, feelings are electrochemical
reactions in the brain, stimulated both by outer influences like
vision, sound, smell, taste and touch, and by inner processes in
the brain. Hence, as soon as you would cut all contact with the
person you love most - like walk out of the room, close your
eyes, cover your ears and stop to breathe for a moment - science
would consider any remaining impression of being in love as
merely an illusion that is entirely restricted to your own
brain.
In contrast, love is commonly considered to be a real
connection, a bond between two people that could hardly be more
real than what is experienced by lovers. Everyday expressions
suggest that feelings are something that is actually shared and
that compassion can actually provide a real benefit to people
who get compassion.
So, are language and everyday perceptions just lagging behind
modern science, just sentimental relicts from a more
superstitious medieval or antique past ? Or is current science
maybe unaware of something important ?
Let me tackle this question by playfully assuming that feelings
could reach far, many miles or more. More precisely, let me
assume that people's brains could communicate even across some
distance, but that such communications would be unconscious to
people and could only indirectly be registered, namely in the
form of feelings.
The idea is initially not to question this premise, but instead
to explore where it would lead and only a bit later gradually
start to get more and more critical. The results of this
Gedankenexperiment will be quite astonishing and, even if in the
end the initial premise turned out to be false, perception of
the world would likely have gained some very compelling new
possibilities. At the very least, it will be much easier to
speak in science about now rather metaphysical terms like
telepathy, precognition, fate and free will, collective
unconscious, god or gods, intelligent design, astrology,
divination, anima mundi, etc. since they will have been given a
new and quite specific meaning in the context of this
Gedankenexperiment.
Hypothesis
Assume in the following that the following would be true:
People's brains could communicate even when people are large
distances apart. This connection would be unconscious.
Consciously, the exchanged information would only be indirectly
accessible in the form of emotional reactions to certain
thoughts and actions. Let me make an example.
Joe Miller is about to sign a contract for a new house he wants
to buy for his family. Everything looks right and, yet, Joe
feels uneasy about the deal. Now, Joe's wife, Heather, has a
good friend Mary, who knows Carl who is a plumber and did some
repairs on the house and noticed some veiled damage. Carl never
talked about this to Mary, nor does Heather know Carl, but
unconsciously there might have been more communication so that
Joe's brain would now unconsciously be aware of the veiled
damage in the house and cause him uneasy feelings.
In essence, life would not be clearly different from what is
observed every day. Joe would still not be able to consciously
read people's minds or to talk to them telepathically, and he
would still not be sure where exactly his feelings would come
from.
But the love he feels for his wife and his children etc., would
be real, there would be a real connection that would not leave
him, only likely get weaker if goes to town for work or travels
to Europe or Asia.
Free Will and Fate
Joe would still be free to do and think whatever he choses to do
and think, but how he would feel doing it, would depend on how
other close people around him feel about it. Since nobody can
constantly do things that one feels bad about, Joe would usually
rather do and think things that are in harmony with what others
around him feel and think. Conversely, his own wishes would also
have some impact on people around him.
Most likely close people like family and close friends would be
the strongest individual influences, but summed up even lots of
less related people, like everybody in the same village or in
the same country would likely also have considerable influence
on how one feels.
Collective Unconscious
Let me look at what has been said so far from a different angle.
If all brains are connected, then that is conceptually not much
different from how the human brain is built up, namely from a
large number of interconnected brain cells. In analogy, all
connected brains could thus be considered to form some sort of a
meta-brain.
Such a huge organism could - just like an ordinary brain -
potentially have a consciousness on its own, its own thoughts,
feelings and intentions. Since it would be so big, it could
potentially even have considerably more complex thoughts than
any individual person can understand.
This reminds of Jung's term collective unconscious. Jung
observed that in dreams and in cultural creations often some
archetypal, universal themes occur, even though the directly
involved individuals are usually not aware of them, are not
experts on, say, Greek mythology.
In terms of the postulated meta-brain, such themes could simply
be part of its knowledge, of its mental structures. So dreams
might provide more access to collective intentions than
conscious thoughts. This would also explain why dreams often
appear to be correlated with future events. Such precognition
might only be apparent, not real, just reflecting collective
knowledge and intentions. The collective unconscious would have
much more information available to itself, so it could predict
much more about the future than would seem possible to any
individual.
To some degree it is just a matter of speaking whether one
considers collective influences as influences from lots of
individuals or from one bigger identity. Whether Joe's thinking
is influenced by the shared wishes of all people in his village
or by a collective identity formed by all collected brains in
his village is to some degree just a matter of taste.
In any case, there would in reality likely not be just a single
entity composed of all brains in the world, but instead several
entities on different scales, like family, village, state,
country, but also interest groups like political parties, stamp
collectors, you name it.
Religion
Such potentially "superior beings" remind, of course, of the god
or gods of various religions. I guess in reality, basically
these two views would emerge:
To atheists and agnostics, god or gods would simply be identical
to the collective unconscious entity that is formed by the
believers. There would actually be a real entity, but its wisdom
and power would be limited to the faith and number of its
followers.
Religious people would simply point out that god or the gods
made the world such that people can feel each other and thus
give each other support when they need it, and that that is a
very good thing.
I see no ways to experimentally decide between the two views.
Personally, I think that both views have their advantages and
disagreement would be smaller than today.
Astrology
Scientists usually turn away almost immediately when they hear
of astrology. But this might usually be based on a wrong
assumption, namely the claim that astrologers make that what
they are doing has something directly to do with the stars and
the planets in the sky.
Note that all following comments will be mainly about mainstream
Western tropical astrology, but similar and equivalent comments
could be made about practically any other astrological system.
Take the twelve star signs of the zodiac. How to group the stars
on the ecliptic is a cultural choice, different for example in
China than in Europe. The Western constellations Aries, Taurus,
Gemini, etc. all have different sizes, only very roughly
representing 1/12 of the zodiac each, as assumed in astrology.
On top of that, due to the precession of the earth's axis, star
signs and constellations practically do not overlap at all any
more since quite some time.
This strongly suggests that the stars in the sky are not
correlated with astrological predictions and also suggests that
likely planets, whose tropical positions are precisely
calculated, are also not really correlated with what people do
down on earth.
But this has very little to do with how astrologers observe
astrology to work every day. Astrologers plot a birth chart,
some circles and lines and symbols. And then they interpret the
chart according to some rules and observe clear correlations
with people's lives and issues.
Suppose these correlations were real, suppose astrology was
simply a collective belief or in other words that the collective
unconscious enforces astrology by believing in it.
For Joe that would mean that, because he was born with the sun
in Aries, he would get more positive emotional feedback when
doing or thinking what an Aries typically does in a given
situation, but less or negative feedback when not. So, Joe would
again be free in principle, but in practice would tend to think
and act more like an Aries is supposed to think and act.
What sense could it possibly make to hang on to such an
apparently archaic system as astrology ? Actually a lot more
than it might superficially appear. To the collective
unconscious, individuals would likely be a bit like ants to us,
unable to see the path they are walking on, only guided by
chemical traces to follow it.
Astrology ensures that given any problem, there will always be a
balanced diversity of approaches to it. Depending on the
solution, in retrospect it is often clear what the best approach
would have been: directly starting to try something, or maybe
first asking several people or even reading a book, to go by
feeling or by reason, and so on. Joe will approach a problem
like an Aries, Carl like a Sagittarius with Gemini ascendent and
Mars in Pisces, and so on. From an evolutionary perspective this
makes sense and is likely more efficient than no such system.
In the not so distant past it would likely also have been useful
that meanings of star signs are adapted to typical things that
need to be done in an agricultural society on the Western
hemisphere. For example, Virgo at the end of summer likes to
sort things out and stack them, like a harvest, while Libra in
early autumn prefers to trade and balance things, like needed in
order to balance stocks to survive the coming winter, and so on.
Superposition
Different unconscious collective entities would have different
opinions on certain issues. For example, Joe's family would like
him to be more at home, but colleagues from work or friends
would have different interests. Such interests would not
logically exclude each other, but would instead superimpose like
waves, so that the stronger influences would usually win Joe's
decision.
In astrology, for example, there are different schools of
thought. Different systems of calculating houses, different
views what planets, aspects, houses means, which planets or
techniques make sense, and so on. In light of the above, such
different views would also not logically exclude each other,
they would only superimpose. Maybe if Joe lives in a country
where most astrologers favor Placidus houses, it would usually
best to cast a chart with this house system, but if he married
an astrologer who prefers Koch houses, things might be different
again.
From an experimental point of view, such superposition would, of
course, make formal tests more difficult.
Intelligent Design
If human brains are emotionally connected, so would most likely
also be animal brains, at least for fairly complex animals like
mammals or reptiles. Whether and to what degree connections
between species would be possible would most likely depend on
the specifics.
It is thus imaginable that the collective unconscious entity for
each species could have plans where to evolve its species to.
It could not influence which mutations occur, but it might
recognize useful ones and then guide individual animals with
such useful mutations, say, towards a region with little
predators and lead suitable mates to them.
In terms of Darwin's theory of evolution by random mutation and
subsequent selection, the collective unconscious could influence
the latter part and thus introduce some elements of intelligent
design to evolution.
In addition, even relatively simple life-forms could maintain a
significant collective culture, so that some behaviors in a
species might not even have to be coded into the genes.
[continued in part 2]
On Jan 29, 12:15 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Jan 22, 1:57 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 22, 10:41 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Hermes wrote:
>
> > > > I quoted/wrote:
> > > > > > So the structuring of a social sign is watery? I am trying to
> > > > > > understand what you are saying. Please don't take offense.
>
> > > > > No offense at all. :)
>
> > > > Sorry, what I had actually wanted to quote for my reply below was
> > > > this:
> > > > > > Just so I am clear, you are saying Aquarius is more "watery" than Leo
> > > > > > because it is closer to Pisces?
>
> > > > Sorry for the mixup and I hope it will not create too much confusion.
>
> > > > )o+
>
> > > > > No the idea in my model is that different star signs are stages in a
> > > > > transition between the 4 elements in the cycle that Aristotle proposed
> > > > > (fire<->air<->water<->earth<->fire<->...). For air signs, the
> > > > > transition is fire-air-water in the model. In the model, Gemini is
> > > > > mostly fire (quick, random, learning), Aquarius is most water
> > > > > (constant like rain, teaching), Libra is in between, balancing fire
> > > > > and water.
>
> > > Yes, I have the progression of the evolution of the Zodiac in my book
> > > and agree with it, but that is a collective discernment and has little
> > > to do with the Element count used in analysis.
>
> > > > > See this thread for more details:
>
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/...
>
> > > > > Personally I think there is something to the model. I come originally
> > > > > from Liz Greene's descriptions of the star signs in The Astrology of
> > > > > Fate and other works by her, i.e. originally heavily influenced by the
> > > > > mythology and, I guess indirectly, ideas by Jung.
>
> > > > > I don't think my model really speaks against your approach of
> > > > > "counting elements", which I think as an approach is genuinely "more
> > > > > equal" than anything else I know, but my model might relativate it a
> > > > > little bit as a secondary effect (i.e. something that comes after
> > > > > counting elements in my view). Aquarius remains mainly an air sign,
> > > > > the empathy is sort of "emulated" or at most learned in life, but not
> > > > > felt as immediately and deeply as a water sign could, even though I
> > > > > think Aquarius has a fair chance to learn to get quite close.
>
> > > Well rarely do we find a complete lack of an element, but when we do it
> > > is clearly manifested in behavior.
>
> > > > > At any rate, just as I want my house doctor to look at certain things
> > > > > when I visit him/her, I would certainly welcome my "house astrologer"
> > > > > to count elements/characters first and then start to look at more.
>
> > > As I explain in my book, it must start this way and then is compiled
> > > into a persona, without which we cannot hope to predict anything.
> > > We usually find the SAME message throughout the chart, and counting
> > > elements is the best way to get on that trail so to speak.
>
> > > > > I can see some indirect advantages to an almost "aspects only" apprach
> > > > > as Ken/CFA proposed: Eliminates critisism related to precession (signs
> > > > > don't count) or sun sign astrology ("I know two guys who are both
> > > > > Virgo and they could not be more different persons"), and maybe -
> > > > > since Richard Nolle also once said something into this direction here
> > > > > - maybe an "aspects only" approach might be easiest for proving parts
> > > > > of astrology in scientific experiments - or maybe not, but at least in
> > > > > that sense, I could understand why someone would *focus* on them.
>
> > > > > Sorry, I have a habit of cramming lots of ideas into posts...
>
> > > > > )o+
>
> > > There is a large focus on them, AFTER the element count, hemisphere
> > > emphasis, and MODE count which we haven't even gotten to yet.
> > > Thanks
>
> > Thanks, too. :)
>
> > If you find the leisure sometime, I can still recommend to take a look
> > at my model of the 12 star signs in terms of transformation between
> > the elements. Certainly, I agree, my model comes *after* counting
> > elements and modes/characters when looking at a chart or likely even
> > just when considering a single one of the 12 star signs, but if you
> > look at my model more closely, it goes beyond a progression of the
> > three star signs per element, in the sense "gemini-young, libra-adult,
> > aquarius-old", which is I guess what you meant with "I have the
> > progression of the evolution of the Zodiac in my book"*, while I do
> > associate that progression also with a transformation between
> > elements, at least in the sense, that Gemini comes relatively closely
> > from fire and Aquarius is already quite close to water, even though I
> > would also, as you say, still count, say, Aquarius fully for the
> > element air in the element count. Actually this became only clear to
> > me in the course of this thread, so thanks everybody for posting. I
> > also agree that usually the same themes can be found in several "
> > places" or from several points of view in a chart. The strongest point
> > of my model, in my view, is that it fits so well with a lot of the
> > mythology that is usually associated with the star signs - likely
> > because a myth usually describes a story, going from somewhere to
> > elsewhere, which is a priori not incompatible with a transformation
> > between elements. In that sense, I consider my model more canonical or
> > "more equal" than the myths associated with them, although in other
> > ways, of course, mythology remains very likely unparalleled...
>
> > (* Or did you mean that you already associate Gemini-Libra-Aquarius
> > with a transformation fire-air-water?)
>
> > )o+
>
> I just wanted to add that in my writings I may get a little more
> metaphysical or speculative. But when delineating a chart for a client
> I am much stricter and psychologically oriented. These ideas are good
> to muse over, but they have little application in my experiences with
> clients, who usually have life issues and pragmatic realities to deal
> with that manifest in behaviors or experiences we wish to redefine.
> Your idea kind of reminds me of the decanate idea with elelments, so
> it does seem as if there is validity to it.
> Thanks!
You're welcome! :)
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
On Jan 28, 9:37 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> > I wrote:
> > > On Jan 22, 10:38 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > > > Mine is now available in ebook format, but sorry, not for free:-)
>
> > > Would that be the book:http://www.astroconsulting.com/prod01.htm?
>
> > I guess, so, I have just ordered a copy (paperback, not ebook):
>
> > http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00359.htm
>
> Hey thanks!
>
> > Why am I not astonished to see the Eye of Horus in the center of the
> > zodiac of the cover ? ;)
> > (c.f. "What indicates something being opened up?" thread)
>
> It is also a sign of protection.
>
> http://atlasbooks.insidethecover.com/widget/?isbn=9780966353211&cpid=...
>
> > Thanks for taking the time to post here, Ed, I had seen your posts
> > over the years at alt.astrology (mainly), but somehow missed what I
> > feel is quite extraordinary quality in your works.
>
> Wow, thanks for that. I really used to like alt.astrology in 1995 or so
> it was real fun and learning. I wasn't opposed to aam only that everyone
> abandoning alt.astrology to come here, which I thought was giving up the
> ship so to speak. I tried to convince everyone to stay posting there no
> matter what the abusers did, which I still feel is the only way they
> would really go away or get bored or get a clue that we can't be so
> easily run off.
My direct experience only goes back to 2002. I have always wondered if
the fate of unmoderated online forums in recent years has been
something that is almost unavoidable due to the 3 keywords
"unmoderated", "online" and the "nature of man" - or if it was maybe
just the time in terms of, say, cycles of outer planets, for things to
evolve like that. With Pluto in Capricorn and Uranus and Neptune soon
switching signs, it will be interesting to see what happens.
I have also considered some technical additions to unmoderated usenet,
which might make it possible to have virtual "moderated" groups emerge
by themselves within unmoderated usenet. Roughly like this: A
"moderator" of a virtual group would regularly screen new posts at a.a
(say), then posts a list of approved post message ids, signed
digitally with his/her private key. People visiting a.a would then
first look around at all posts and could then select one or several
virtual groups, and choose in their client software to highlight posts
belonging to these groups or only to show these posts, and so on.
Within a.a. there might thus emerge virtual groups like "tropical
astrology", "traditional astrology", "skeptic comments", "saturn trine
moon in september", ... Anybody could be a moderator, anybody would be
free what he/she would want to see (by default or on a case by case
basis). Everybody could post.
Of course, realizing this is a different story, with so many news
readers and web services around that would have to support the new
feature, and it is not sure if effectively many groups would carry on
(moderation is work).
)o+
> > (One indirect exception is that I found Jean Richer's "geographie
> > sacree du monde grec" via your web site - actually Jean Richer is a
> > bit like me (AC+MC), just opposite (sun+moon):
> > Jean Richer's birth chart:http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/9mx3s7vLTts2.htm
> > My birth chart:http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sw_wR3Qj60I/AAAAAAAAACc/o1s4ErIFCho...
>
> > But I like his work, does not feel opposite to me, maybe due to very
> > similar AC/MC. I especially liked the chapter about the lion of Iulis
> > in his book, which seems to have been originally published close to my
> > birth (1967 vs. 1966).
> > )o+
>
> I try to put up diverse links on my links page because I know everyone
> thinks vastly different on the subject.
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
On Jan 31, 10:10 pm, "A B" <a@a.uk> wrote:
> "Hermes" <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote on 30th January:
[...]
> > I have also considered some technical additions to unmoderated usenet,
> > which might make it possible to have virtual "moderated" groups emerge
> > by themselves within unmoderated usenet. Roughly like this: A
> > "moderator" of a virtual group would regularly screen new posts at a.a
> > (say), then posts a list of approved post message ids, signed
> > digitally with his/her private key. People visiting a.a would then
> > first look around at all posts and could then select one or several
> > virtual groups, and choose in their client software to highlight posts
> > belonging to these groups or only to show these posts, and so on.
> > Within a.a. there might thus emerge virtual groups like "tropical
> > astrology", "traditional astrology", "skeptic comments", "saturn trine
> > moon in september", ... Anybody could be a moderator, anybody would be
> > free what he/she would want to see (by default or on a case by case
> > basis). Everybody could post.
>
> > Of course, realizing this is a different story, with so many news
> > readers and web services around that would have to support the new
> > feature, and it is not sure if effectively many groups would carry on
> > (moderation is work).
>
> > )o+
>
> It's still a very clever idea. That way, you could have a single newsgroup,
> but readers could choose whether to have it moderated or unmoderated - if
> two people were willing to moderate, you could even have a choice of
> moderation. What would you do about replies to rejected posts that are
> themselves OK, though? It gets confusing when you have replies coming in to
> something you haven't seen. I get this problem just with my ordinary
> killfile. As you say, there would alsp be trouble implementing it - but
> maybe the open source newsreaders at least would be in with a chance? I
> suppose this is wildly off topic, but I wanted to say that it's not just
> Hermes who likes the idea.
I would not say that I personally like the idea so much, I probably
prefer the idea of virtual "homes" with protective shells like
moderated newsgroups are. I see my idea maybe also somewhere on the
axis of the lunar nodes now, Cancer-Capricorn, on the ambivalence
between these two on issues like hierarchy (which limits but also
protects) vs. self-organization and freedom (both signs are cardinal).
Usenet itself has the n.node in Virgo, so the historical development
from no hierarchy to one (sci.*, alt.*, etc.) and the evolution into
moderated groups would likely be quite natural in that sense.
Regarding replies to "rejected" posts in my idea: Could always reject
those, as effectively in moderated newsgroups, or could start to
moderate into details, into individual passages and then blend
"rejected" passages first out by software, with the option to show
them again with a mouse click. Moderated newsgroups might even profit
from such technical features: Official moderators might choose to
label posts by categories as a service to readers. I guess, as usually
with ideas involving self-organization, the only way to really find
out how things will turn out, would be to try it.
)o+
> A. B.
>
> ======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> This is offtopic, but I will allow this discussion as long as stays free of discussion of moderation of a.a.m, as the Charter explicitly prohibits discussion on that particular subject. /Kjell
On Feb 6, 6:47 am, "Astralis" <pippo@pluto.it> wrote:
> St. Valentine is coming but he's the one for you) Discover it with Astrology
> at:
>
> http://blog.astralis.it/
>
> click on "vai al post" for the English version.
>
> Astraliswww.astralis.it
Thanks for the link :)
I also liked the blog entry about Patrizia D'Addario and the
comparison of her birth chart to the one of Mata Hari. What is the
place of Patrizia D'Addario's birth? I used 17 February 1967 as birth
date and a birth time of around 1:30 am, which gave me about the sane
values for moon, AC and MC as in the chart drawing if I used Catania
(Sicily) as birth place.
)o+
On Feb 4, 2:02 am, "A B" <a@a.uk> wrote:
> I read somewhere that the German astrologer E. H. Troinski drew up a chart
> for the first Moon landing, cast for the actual place of the landing (i.e. a
> selenocentric chart). I've been unable to track down any such chart on the
> Internet. Does anyone know how I could get hold of it, or how I might go
> about drawing up such a chart myself?
> Many thanks,
> A. B.
My guess: I assume he used the same tropical zodiac as used on earth,
i.e. a zodiac based on the orientation of the earth's axis. Then all
planets except earth in the chart would be close to their positions in
an earth-based chart. Earth would be opposite the position where the
moon is in an earth-based chart (except for possibly topocentric
corrections, but those would be smaller for a moon-based chart). No
quick guess on houses (a day on the moon is about a month on earth).
Not sure how exactly to "mirror" points that involve the moon (lunar
nodes, black moon lilith, part of fortune).
)o+
On Feb 6, 11:49 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 6:47 am, "Astralis" <pippo@pluto.it> wrote:
>
> > St. Valentine is coming but he's the one for you) Discover it with Astrology
> > at:
>
> >http://blog.astralis.it/
>
> > click on "vai al post" for the English version.
>
> > Astraliswww.astralis.it
>
> Thanks for the link :)
>
> I also liked the blog entry about Patrizia D'Addario and the
> comparison of her birth chart to the one of Mata Hari. What is the
> place of Patrizia D'Addario's birth? I used 17 February 1967 as birth
> date and a birth time of around 1:30 am, which gave me about the sane
> values for moon, AC and MC as in the chart drawing if I used Catania
> (Sicily) as birth place.
>
> )o+
Direct link to the mentioned blog post, with chart images:
(italian)
http://blognew.aruba.it/blog.astralis.it/La_Mata_Hari_del_terzo_millennio__24758.shtml
(google's autotranslation to english, but it got some things
wrong...)
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblognew.aruba.it%2Fblog.astralis.it%2FLa_Mata_Hari_del_terzo_millennio__24758.shtml&sl=it&tl=en
)o+
On Feb 6, 3:14 pm, "Silveen" <Stargazer-Silveen@t-online.de> wrote:
> "Hermes" <astalder25@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:e6af44ef-e530-4327-94c3-fbcbd318200e@3g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 4, 2:02 am, "A B" <a@a.uk> wrote:
> >> I read somewhere that the German astrologer E. H. Troinski drew up a
> >> chart
> >> for the first Moon landing, cast for the actual place of the landing
> >> (i.e. a
> >> selenocentric chart). I've been unable to track down any such chart on
> >> the
> >> Internet. Does anyone know how I could get hold of it, or how I might go
> >> about drawing up such a chart myself?
> >> Many thanks,
> >> A. B.
>
> > My guess: I assume he used the same tropical zodiac as used on earth,
> > i.e. a zodiac based on the orientation of the earth's axis. Then all
> > planets except earth in the chart would be close to their positions in
> > an earth-based chart. Earth would be opposite the position where the
> > moon is in an earth-based chart (except for possibly topocentric
> > corrections, but those would be smaller for a moon-based chart). No
> > quick guess on houses
> > (a day on the moon is about a month on earth)
>
> Hi Hermes:
> How is that to be understood ? If you lived there, would´t you age
> like on earth ? etc. . .
Say you would stand somewhere near the middle of the moon's face as
seen from earth at full moon. Then there would be a "lunar noon", the
sun would stand near the zenith or astrologically near the MC of the
lunar day. With the moon waning, at some point the sun would go down,
about a week after full moon. Another week later, would be new moon,
the sun would be "in your back", behind the moon. Another week later,
with waxing moon the sun would rise again, and finally one more week
later it would be full moon again.
At new moon, there would also be "full earth", the whole face of the
earth would be lit and within each 24 hours you could see the
continents travel across the "full earth" as the earth rotates in 24
hours. (The radius of the moon is about 1/4 of the one of earth, so
earth seen from the moon is bigger than moon seen from earth.)
Here is a link to another way of explaining day and night on the moon:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae515.cfm
I hope I got this all right... :)
)o+
PS: Actually, you do age a tiny little bit differently on the moon,
due to the theory of relativity (I estimate mainly a bit faster
because of less gravity).
>
> IRH/Silveen
>
> > Not sure how exactly to "mirror" points that involve the moon (lunar
> > nodes, black moon lilith, part of fortune).
>
> > )o+
On Feb 7, 5:51 pm, "Astralis" <pippo@pluto.it> wrote:
> "Hermes" <astalder25@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:ce149321-a439-4089-a492-8454a0566cdc@m31g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the link :)
>
> > I also liked the blog entry about Patrizia D'Addario and the
> > comparison of her birth chart to the one of Mata Hari. What is the
> > place of Patrizia D'Addario's birth? I used 17 February 1967 as birth
> > date and a birth time of around 1:30 am, which gave me about the sane
> > values for moon, AC and MC as in the chart drawing if I used Catania
> > (Sicily) as birth place.
>
> > )o+
>
> As first, thanks for your words and sorry, I only now have seen your
> question and here I reply.
> Patrizia D'Addario birthplace is Bari, South East Italy and, yes, she was
> born at 1.30 am.
Thanks for the info, so she was born at the "heel of the foot in the
boot". (Could associatively lead to Achilles (because of "heel"), who
Liz Greene associates with the sign of Cancer, where there is Patrizia
D'Addario's Jupiter in the 8th and Mata Hari's Venus also in the
8th... But maybe that is a little bit too speculative even as an
clue?)
>
> Astralis
> www.astralis.it
On Feb 5, 3:49 pm, pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31 2009, 4:15 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 31, 2:00 am, pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 30, 10:51 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I met Alois Treindl (founder of astro,com) once in early 2005,
> > > > actually at the day when there was an exact opposition of
> > > > t.Neptune (in Aquarius) to my natal sun, and at the occasion
> > > > he also took a quick look at my birth chart and, as far as I
> > > > remember, he mentioned the imbalance between elements
> > > > first (4 trad. planets in water, 3 in fire, no trad. planets in air
> > > > or earth, ura-plu is in virgo, nep in sco). When I interjected
> > > > that, hey Uranus and Pluto in earth he just mentioned that
> > > > those are collective planets.
>
> > > > That was apparenty his initial approach to a chart, at least
> > > > in my case. Cannot judge it much rationally and my feelings
> > > > are a bit mixed, maybe like this: If you somehow strive for a
> > > > single best way of looking initially at a chart that gives best
> > > > results averaged over all charts that you might ever look at
> > > > (a bit like if you devise computer analyses like Alois does, and
> > > > certainly very well, or when you make a scientific hypothesis
> > > > of "the" way it is), then I think the elementary analysis might
> > > > be the best approach and also be a good one in many
> > > > situations. Seems to me maybe on the axis Aqu-Leo ?
> > > > (I devised my elementary model of the star signs in 2001
> > > > when the sun was in Aquarius, and am a Leo).
>
> > > > The other approach here would likely be to look at each chart
> > > > in its own right, like if it was a living individual (often it is!)
> > > > who
> > > > deserves a dedicated specialized look (art) that even adapts
> > > > methods to some degree to the chart at hand (often indirectly
> > > > by visiting the "right" astrologer). Deep orcheesy? Both?
>
> > > > )o+
> > > > --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilos...
>
> > > It comes down to the needs of the "astrologer" ; but I think the need
> > > to be definitively correct--in control of how other's are to be
> > > defined, is quite "cheesy" , as you put it...: ) The fact that we can
> > > know almost nothing about this Universe; in its essence, nothing but
> > > our own artfully created relative terms, should at some point release
> > > the ego from having to be god-like in its desire for apparent
> > > infallibility....: ) Perhaps knowledge should indeed set one free, and
> > > not chain the soul to an endless series of ego-sustaining parlor
> > > tricks...always a rabbit appears from the hat on cue...: ) The truth
> > > of the matter is, one cannot sell or trade experiences which do not
> > > promise to "empower" someone; thus, it is onlyPowerthat is
> > > ostensibly offered to the consumer of promises, and not a more soul-
> > > enhancing understanding of our collective ignorance...: |
>
> > > Think of the Trinity of: House 2, -House 6, -House 10, in the
> > > abstract. See here how Personal Increase(H2) is tied to Service (H6)
> > > by way of GoverningPower(H10). This psychical "molecule" of three
> > > parts does not exist if one part is removed, and any one part is so
> > > like the other two when they operate in unison, as a kind of
> > > "molecule" of human motivation, that the confusion of Service with
> > > the exercise ofPowerends up being defined as thePowerof Money, or
> > > the Service ofPower. So tempting it its for the ego to say; " *I*
> > > have thePowerto Serve!" Here we have conjured House 10 plus House
> > > 6; but what is in the soul's House 2, of Personal Increase--what
> > > spiritual equivalent of Money is here the third atomic member of this
> > > "molecule" of human motivation? Only the Soul has the potential for
> > > the kind of Personal Increase needed to bond the abstract trinity--
> > > <H2-H6-H10>.
>
> > >Poweris "cheesy" : the Self is "deep". Service may be nearly
> > > impossible due to the soul's complete lack of understanding of the
> > > essentials we pretend to control/manipulate by way of our ego-serving
> > > definitions.
>
> > > Pedantus Pontificus...: )
>
> > Thanks a lot! :)
>
> > (Would it be too bold to claim that a good part of what can
> > make the magic of a relation compared to an individual being
> > is, beyond obviously the relative aspects in synastry, the fact
> > that usually planets are in different houses in synastry for both?)
>
> > )o+
>
> Hi,
> Just bumped into an example of the way we intuitively come to,
> visually, graphically, express the relationship between Houses II, VI,
> X. I thought this was a good followup on the comments concerning this
> trinity of houses as described above. I think the dynamics of the
> psyche's expression are evidence in the art-related urge to address
> our internal experience of house divisions as "spiritual" geometry.
> 2-6-10 Money-Service-Power:
>
> http://www.newagepower.net/images/logo.JPGhttp://www.newagepower.net/reading.html
>
> One has to wonder if the "author" of this graphic was actually
> conscious of the amount of "horoscopic" expressionism lie at the
> creative root urge of the imagery.
>
> Oh, BTW, I still think any such appeal to, or offering of, Power is
> "Cheesy"...: )
>
> Rog
I probably do not understand all you say, but I did make a google
image search for "new age power" and the 4th image it brought up was
this (of the first 4, 3 had trinangles by the way),
http://sathyasaibaba.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/moon-power.jpg
http://sathyasaibaba.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/dattatreya-siva-baba-a-new-age-of-enlightenment/
which reminded me a lot of what you said on new year's eve in this
thread, namely "See here how Personal Increase(H2) is tied to Service
(H6) by way of GoverningPower(H10)". I guess the head of the woman in
the image is governing her hands, but also apparently she is listening
to them, and hence to the moon between them, which is mirrored in
smaller form on top of her head (i.e. her mental image of the moon,
her ideal how things should be?). But maybe that is just me with my
moon in the 10th... ;)
)o+
On Feb 8, 3:20 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> I believe supplanting "pictures that look like charts" is a measure of
> incompetance.
I am not sure if the "art-chart" correspondence always or even often
works (too little personal experience with it), but at least in this
example between Liz Greene's birth chart and her cover illustration
for her book "The Astrology of Fate" it looks convincing to me:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S2_gD_wGZrI/AAAAAAAAAY4/x7TpXvayEIg/mirror.jpg
I brought this up about two years ago here, as an application of my
limited perception of what Pedantus does with such things.
Here is a link to a post from Pedantus from then, plus a link to a
similar superposition image by Pedantus with some comments by him:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/21d6888aec936644
http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
The cover illustration is by Liz Greene herself, as it says inside the
cover of the book. (Liz Greene also stated that she used to paint when
she was young, in a Mountain Astrologer interview a few years ago.)
A main focus is arguably on the shears that Atropos, the oldest of the
Fates, is holding, symbolizing the claws of Scorpio before apparently
Scorpio was split ("cut" like with shears) into two star signs
sometime around the second century BC (at least according to Liz
Greene's own account in the same book). Besides her birth chart, there
was also a Sat-Plu conjunction near that "cutting point" near the end
of Libra around 1983 when she likely made the illustration and wrote
the book (published in 1984). Also her progressed sun was around there
at the time. The cave in the drawing and the sun (light) there can be
seen to mirror the glyph of Leo, and the trees in the landscape
outside can be seen to mirror the planets mercury-sun and saturn-
pluto. Most of the other planets are on the faces of the Fates; the IC
and part of fortune are in Pisces which is fittingly occupied by one
foot of the middle Fate (the one that measures). And I think more
could be seen. I would say the thread stands also for the nodal axis,
is just bent a little out of way of the inner birth chart shown.
Of course, with Liz Greene being an astrologer, maybe she unconciously
(or even consciously) could have crafted the drawing to reflect her
chart.
)o+
On Feb 9, 1:57 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2:21 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 3:20 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I believe supplanting "pictures that look like charts" is a measure of
> > > incompetance.
>
> > I am not sure if the "art-chart" correspondence always or even often
> > works (too little personal experience with it), but at least in this
> > example between Liz Greene's birth chart and her cover illustration
> > for her book "The Astrology of Fate" it looks convincing to me:
>
> > http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S2_gD_wGZrI/AAAAAAAAAY4/x7TpXvayEIg...
>
> > I brought this up about two years ago here, as an application of my
> > limited perception of what Pedantus does with such things.
>
> > Here is a link to a post from Pedantus from then, plus a link to a
> > similar superposition image by Pedantus with some comments by him:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/21d6888aec...
> > http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
>
> > The cover illustration is by Liz Greene herself, as it says inside the
> > cover of the book. (Liz Greene also stated that she used to paint when
> > she was young, in a Mountain Astrologer interview a few years ago.)
>
> > A main focus is arguably on the shears that Atropos, the oldest of the
> > Fates, is holding, symbolizing the claws of Scorpio before apparently
> > Scorpio was split ("cut" like with shears) into two star signs
> > sometime around the second century BC (at least according to Liz
> > Greene's own account in the same book). Besides her birth chart, there
> > was also a Sat-Plu conjunction near that "cutting point" near the end
> > of Libra around 1983 when she likely made the illustration and wrote
> > the book (published in 1984). Also her progressed sun was around there
> > at the time. The cave in the drawing and the sun (light) there can be
> > seen to mirror the glyph of Leo, and the trees in the landscape
> > outside can be seen to mirror the planets mercury-sun and saturn-
> > pluto. Most of the other planets are on the faces of the Fates; the IC
> > and part of fortune are in Pisces which is fittingly occupied by one
> > foot of the middle Fate (the one that measures). And I think more
> > could be seen. I would say the thread stands also for the nodal axis,
> > is just bent a little out of way of the inner birth chart shown.
>
> > Of course, with Liz Greene being an astrologer, maybe she unconciously
> > (or even consciously) could have crafted the drawing to reflect her
> > chart.
>
> > )o+
>
> Well, yes, I am not saying that a person may not express some of their
> chart in artwork, I am saying nothing can supplant diligent organized
> analysis FIRST. But using the artwork in reverse and saying the art
> shows this and that about the chart is definately silly and
> unreliable. This concept might be better employed as an afterthought
> or in support of, not unlike asteroids are. But asteroids are aslo in
> this category, and if you ever notice people go off on giant analyses
> based on some insignificant asteroid without some serious analysis
> using the major processes in delineating a chart, it just cannot be
> sound, that is all I am saying. And it is very easy, especially in
> astrology, to go off on a tangent in reading things, only to find--for
> example--that you have the wrong time or something. A word to the wise
> is sufficient. People do this in research as well, at SDSU students
> would tend to go off on hypotheses about some data that one could not
> possibly have gotten just from the data. Remember when eggs were
> thought to be bad for us??
> This is why having an outline of the psychological thrust of the
> person is the best way to approach it before consultation, because you
> can let the client tell you what they have or have not done with the
> chart as we see it.
> I can't (and no one can) really know what the 100% Aquarian person has
> chosen to take the chart they have and develop it. We can only see
> probabilities and guage how those probabilities have panned out, by
> hearing what the person says about what we present. We then adjust our
> perceptions and recognition of the path they chose and do our best to
> support that choice with hopefully greater awareness for them to aid
> and assist.
> I hope I said this clear enough with sounding too curt.
> Thanks!
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
I see what you mean, not too curt. Since this thread started, Jupiter
has moved from Aquarius into Pisces, which I would interpret as less
of a "one size fits all" approach to reading a chart, to not
necessarily proceeding rationally/analytically or striving for more
consciousness in client or astrologer. As far as I know Liz Greene,
for example, despite being an astrologer, she is probably the last
person on earth who would like to know anything about herself, at
least in my perception, even though she did certainly study it using
astrology and even do genealogical research from an astrological
perspective. More conscious knowledge often has the effect of only
hardening things that are unconscious, making them more and more
inaccessible (and thus maybe even more a problem than they would have
been if left undisturbed). I know all of this does not really
contradict what you wrote, at least from the perspective you put it,
which is certainly very useful for reading charts.
Fixed URL for superposition of Liz Greene's chart and illustration:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S2_gD_wGZrI/AAAAAAAAAY4/x7TpXvayEIg/mirror.jpg
I guess I have to conclude that I am not 100% Aquarian...
)o+
On Feb 9, 6:46 pm, The True Edmond Wollmann <EHWollmann@aol.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 8, 10:51 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 9, 1:57 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 8, 2:21 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 8, 3:20 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > I believe supplanting "pictures that look like charts" is a measure of
> > > > > incompetance.
>
> > > > I am not sure if the "art-chart" correspondence always or even often
> > > > works (too little personal experience with it), but at least in this
> > > > example between Liz Greene's birth chart and her cover illustration
> > > > for her book "The Astrology of Fate" it looks convincing to me:
>
> > > >http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S2_gD_wGZrI/AAAAAAAAAY4/x7TpXvayEIg...
>
> > > > I brought this up about two years ago here, as an application of my
> > > > limited perception of what Pedantus does with such things.
>
> > > > Here is a link to a post from Pedantus from then, plus a link to a
> > > > similar superposition image by Pedantus with some comments by him:
>
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/21d6888aec...
> > > >http://pedantus.free.fr/LizGreene_01a2.gif
>
> > > > The cover illustration is by Liz Greene herself, as it says inside the
> > > > cover of the book. (Liz Greene also stated that she used to paint when
> > > > she was young, in a Mountain Astrologer interview a few years ago.)
>
> > > > A main focus is arguably on the shears that Atropos, the oldest of the
> > > > Fates, is holding, symbolizing the claws of Scorpio before apparently
> > > > Scorpio was split ("cut" like with shears) into two star signs
> > > > sometime around the second century BC (at least according to Liz
> > > > Greene's own account in the same book). Besides her birth chart, there
> > > > was also a Sat-Plu conjunction near that "cutting point" near the end
> > > > of Libra around 1983 when she likely made the illustration and wrote
> > > > the book (published in 1984). Also her progressed sun was around there
> > > > at the time. The cave in the drawing and the sun (light) there can be
> > > > seen to mirror the glyph of Leo, and the trees in the landscape
> > > > outside can be seen to mirror the planets mercury-sun and saturn-
> > > > pluto. Most of the other planets are on the faces of the Fates; the IC
> > > > and part of fortune are in Pisces which is fittingly occupied by one
> > > > foot of the middle Fate (the one that measures). And I think more
> > > > could be seen. I would say the thread stands also for the nodal axis,
> > > > is just bent a little out of way of the inner birth chart shown.
>
> > > > Of course, with Liz Greene being an astrologer, maybe she unconciously
> > > > (or even consciously) could have crafted the drawing to reflect her
> > > > chart.
>
> > > > )o+
>
> > > Well, yes, I am not saying that a person may not express some of their
> > > chart in artwork, I am saying nothing can supplant diligent organized
> > > analysis FIRST. But using the artwork in reverse and saying the art
> > > shows this and that about the chart is definately silly and
> > > unreliable. This concept might be better employed as an afterthought
> > > or in support of, not unlike asteroids are. But asteroids are aslo in
> > > this category, and if you ever notice people go off on giant analyses
> > > based on some insignificant asteroid without some serious analysis
> > > using the major processes in delineating a chart, it just cannot be
> > > sound, that is all I am saying. And it is very easy, especially in
> > > astrology, to go off on a tangent in reading things, only to find--for
> > > example--that you have the wrong time or something. A word to the wise
> > > is sufficient. People do this in research as well, at SDSU students
> > > would tend to go off on hypotheses about some data that one could not
> > > possibly have gotten just from the data. Remember when eggs were
> > > thought to be bad for us??
> > > This is why having an outline of the psychological thrust of the
> > > person is the best way to approach it before consultation, because you
> > > can let the client tell you what they have or have not done with the
> > > chart as we see it.
> > > I can't (and no one can) really know what the 100% Aquarian person has
> > > chosen to take the chart they have and develop it. We can only see
> > > probabilities and guage how those probabilities have panned out, by
> > > hearing what the person says about what we present. We then adjust our
> > > perceptions and recognition of the path they chose and do our best to
> > > support that choice with hopefully greater awareness for them to aid
> > > and assist.
> > > I hope I said this clear enough with sounding too curt.
> > > Thanks!
>
> > > Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> > > 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> > > Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> > > Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> > > Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
>
> > I see what you mean, not too curt. Since this thread started, Jupiter
> > has moved from Aquarius into Pisces, which I would interpret as less
> > of a "one size fits all" approach to reading a chart, to not
> > necessarily proceeding rationally/analytically or striving for more
> > consciousness in client or astrologer. As far as I know Liz Greene,
> > for example, despite being an astrologer, she is probably the last
> > person on earth who would like to know anything about herself, at
> > least in my perception, even though she did certainly study it using
> > astrology and even do genealogical research from an astrological
> > perspective. More conscious knowledge often has the effect of only
> > hardening things that are unconscious, making them more and more
> > inaccessible (and thus maybe even more a problem than they would have
> > been if left undisturbed). I know all of this does not really
> > contradict what you wrote, at least from the perspective you put it,
> > which is certainly very useful for reading charts.
>
> > Fixed URL for superposition of Liz Greene's chart and illustration:http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S2_gD_wGZrI/AAAAAAAAAY4/x7TpXvayEIg...
>
> > I guess I have to conclude that I am not 100% Aquarian...
>
> > )o+- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I would say only one more thing. In consultation the client does not
> know I have done all this work, and a simple statement like "It
> appears to me that you have a very strong need to be unique, perhaps
> especially having to do with artistic creations or how you give love
> and express yourself to others. You may havce some self-worth issues
> in relationships seeking the ideal... This would appear to have been
> from some very strong influence from your mother and perhaps the way
> she nurtured you...a very important time frame that might give us some
> insight into this idea would have been around November of
> 1975...around age 14..."
> Now, the final comment to the readers is this: The client or person
> who's chart we are reading may indeed themselves NOT be aware of the
> imbalance or whatever psychological issue we discover by the methods I
> employ, and so part of the consultation would be to try to bring that
> into awareness if possible so that the person can understand the
> beliefs, and therefore understand how they create what they create.
> Because we cannot change that which we do not own.
> Thank you again for allowing me to share my approach with all of you.
I agree. With all you wrote above regarding relation astrologer-
client. Maybe I would not agree in all possible interpretations of
your sentences above, but I am quite confident that I agree with them
in the sense you meant them. Took me some minutes to think into it,
but then (as usual in this thread) I had to concede that you are
right. Thanks also to all the other posters who - like myself - could
not convince me in the end so much. I guess you all were certainly
right in many points, too, just not as broadly and universally and
centrally right as Ed, at least in my limited perception... :)
In any case, this has in my feeling become a very interesting and
beautiful thread.
Quote from Chinese Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu:
* Chuangtse and Hueitse had strolled on to the bridge over the Hao,
* when the former observed, "See how the small fish are darting
* about! That is the happiness of the fish."
*
* "You not being a fish yourself," said Huei, "how can you know the
* happiness of the fish?"
*
* "And you not being I," retorted Chuangtse, "how can you know
* that I do not know?"
*
* "If I, not being you, cannot know what you know," urged Huei,
* "it follows that you, not being a fish, cannot know the happiness
* of the fish."
*
* "Let us go back to your original question," said Chuangtse.
* "You asked me how I knew the happiness of the fish. Your very
* question shows that you knew that I knew. I knew it from my own
* feelings on this bridge."
-- Source: http://reader.homestead.com/chuangtse.html
Thanks everybody again,
)o+
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
On Feb 11, 6:52 am, pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You got it , Hermes....: )
>
> Just think about how any drawing is always largely about the act of
> "drawing," and our human psychological need to draw. The same deep
> roots of the psyche are involved in both acts of drawing--in both
> astrology and graphic arts, I mean. The natal chart is but an evolved
> drawing which uses consciously arranged intellectual data as an
> inspiration to create what is a partially abstract drawing/chart. (it
> is not a map--not a two dimensional physically correct model; its a
> down and dirty interpretation of a geocentric perspective from a gods-
> eye point of view above the North pole. This element of abstraction
> allows the psyche to unconsciously project its collective perspective
> concerning our symbolisms for spiritual geometry--an attempt to catch
> the image of what it feels like to be human--a map of the psyche is
> thus superimposed upon the astronomical data. We are always projecting
> our autobiographically formed philosophy/beliefs and our abstract Self
> image. What could be more like each other in spirit than one's natal
> chart and one's abstract self-portrait. What Liz Greene did on the
> cover you cite, essentially, was to succeed at the spiritual task of
> performing unconsciously projected abstract self portraiture...:)
> This is what we do when we are actually engaged in Self
> expression....:) If we don't do it, we don't get to be here as a well
> defined, more or less unique, human being. Behind the Ego and all its
> occasional false self afflictions, there lies a pattern of more unique
> Identity upon which even the Ego relies for its existence...: )
>
> Rog
Thanks a lot. :)
Especially the idea that a horoscope drawing can be viewed as a
"geocentric perspective from a gods-eye point of view above the North
pole" is something that had never occurred to me. I think I found two
interesting "large scale" applications of that "god's view", expressed
not by an individual, but by a whole country/culture.
Ancient Egypt (Architecture)
The three pyramids in Giza seen from top look very similar to the belt
of Orion (Osiris), as R. Bauval first proposed:
http://www.steffen-gries.de/assets/images/abbild5.JPG
A pyramid itself is astrologically maybe even more interesting seen
from above:
http://www.virtuescience.com/great-pyramid-top.gif
It looks like a grand square, even the grand cross of oppositions is
visible.
Edmond Wollmann writes:
* The persona described by Carl Jung is the "Mask" or false face that
is
* created psychologically by the oversoul upon incarnation, that
allows
* a focused facet of the soul to interact with physicality. This
persona or
* ego structure is essentially an artificial construct-- by which--
through
* belief (Cardinal signs-identity definition), emotion (Fixed-the
momentum
* of energy-motion), and thought (mutable-abstraction and reflection),
we
* create our experiential reality and the momentum (karma) therefrom.
* [image]
* These three modes (squares) of expression manifest through the four
* elements (triangles) of definition. This unified universal premise
is the
* root structure reflected through;
*
* 1) The Great Pyramids (4 TRIANGLES ON SQUARE BASE),
* [...]
-- Pyramids, DNA, and The Elements
-- http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/pyramids.htm
So the approach to reading a chart based on counting elements and
characters that Edmond Wollmann presented in this thread is directly
related to pyramids and consequently also to the Age of Taurus.
In the top view of the pyramid, things look less harmonious than one
might expect from a sign ruled by Venus, at least the balance is
fragile and subject to possibly great tensions when some planets
transit (I personally associate squares with earth, certainly a grand
cross, symbol of a tree, and oppositions with air, as something more
abstract). From top, it is also not possible to see into the pyramid,
into the ground, so some deeper insights (Scorpio) may remain hidden,
like in the case of pyramids that they were graves.
(Also the overall theme reminds me a bit of the current Saturn in
Libra square Pluto in Capricorn situation, which would explain why it
became prominent in this time.)
Example 2: Ancient Greece (Mythology and everything)
Jean Richer's idea that mythological places mirror in a zodiac, at one
of Edmond Wollmann's sites:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/images/platoo1.jpg
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
Ancient Greek gods were immortal, but they were all *born* at some
time and at a _known_ place. So the idea would be to plot where they
were born onto a map centered in Delphi like the one linked above,
like a birth chart: Where Zeus was born would be Jupiter, where
Apollon (and/or Helios) was born would be the sun, and so on... That
would give a "birth chart" for ancient Greece, its culture, and hence
for all cultures that followed in its footsteps...
Personally, I prefer the Greek approach, it helped them defend against
the much stronger and more organized Persians (Iran), which might also
give a clue how one might defend against their atomic bombs (which
they arguably likely will soon have) and their rockets to carry them
(which they already have)...
)o+
--
Jimi Hendrix live at Woodstock '69, Villanova Junction (i.e. a cross,
note also close sun-Neptune square*):
http://video.google.ch/videoplay?docid=8608497764274521749&ei=3cR1S5rjBJ3k2gLqkqXfBw
* Mon 18 August 1969, roughly around 10.55 AM or so, see
http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/music0_woodstock.html
IRH/Silveen wrote (4 Jan 2010, in the "Am I 100% Aquarian thread):
> All in all, shouldn´t we / wouldn´t we consider to look at the
> porgressed chart to figure how the person acts, or is likely
> to act NOW ?
Always puzzled me a bit that people seem to use often two "big"
methods for that same purpose: progressions and transits. I am not
sure what exactly the difference is in the sense of what which method
can tell more and what less. Is my impression misleading that in
contemporary western tropical astrology, transits are more often used
than progressions?
Besides different ways of calculating progressions, one could in
principle also consider a composite chart for birth and current time,
or a Davidson chart for these, etc., and/or look at aspects between
any of these charts and the birth chart - but I suppose all of this is
less frequently done, if at all?
Happy Valentine's Day,
)o+
On Feb 14, 2:22 pm, pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 7:08 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 11, 6:52 am, pedantus <pedantus@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You got it , Hermes....: )
>
> > > Just think about how any drawing is always largely about the act of
> > > "drawing," and our human psychological need to draw. The same deep
> > > roots of the psyche are involved in both acts of drawing--in both
> > > astrology and graphic arts, I mean. The natal chart is but an evolved
> > > drawing which uses consciously arranged intellectual data as an
> > > inspiration to create what is a partially abstract drawing/chart. (it
> > > is not a map--not a two dimensional physically correct model; its a
> > > down and dirty interpretation of a geocentric perspective from a gods-
> > > eye point of view above the North pole. This element of abstraction
> > > allows the psyche to unconsciously project its collective perspective
> > > concerning our symbolisms for spiritual geometry--an attempt to catch
> > > the image of what it feels like to be human--a map of the psyche is
> > > thus superimposed upon the astronomical data. We are always projecting
> > > our autobiographically formed philosophy/beliefs and our abstract Self
> > > image. What could be more like each other in spirit than one's natal
> > > chart and one's abstract self-portrait. What Liz Greene did on the
> > > cover you cite, essentially, was to succeed at the spiritual task of
> > > performing unconsciously projected abstract self portraiture...:)
> > > This is what we do when we are actually engaged in Self
> > > expression....:) If we don't do it, we don't get to be here as a well
> > > defined, more or less unique, human being. Behind the Ego and all its
> > > occasional false self afflictions, there lies a pattern of more unique
> > > Identity upon which even the Ego relies for its existence...: )
>
> > > Rog
>
> > Thanks a lot. :)
>
> > Especially the idea that a horoscope drawing can be viewed as a
> > "geocentric perspective from a gods-eye point of view above the North
> > pole" is something that had never occurred to me. I think I found two
> > interesting "large scale" applications of that "god's view", expressed
> > not by an individual, but by a whole country/culture.
>
> > Ancient Egypt (Architecture)
>
> > The three pyramids in Giza seen from top look very similar to the belt
> > of Orion (Osiris), as R. Bauval first proposed:
>
> > http://www.steffen-gries.de/assets/images/abbild5.JPG
>
> > A pyramid itself is astrologically maybe even more interesting seen
> > from above:
>
> > http://www.virtuescience.com/great-pyramid-top.gif
>
> > It looks like a grand square, even the grand cross of oppositions is
> > visible.
>
> > Edmond Wollmann writes:
>
> > * The persona described by Carl Jung is the "Mask" or false face that
> > is
> > * created psychologically by the oversoul upon incarnation, that
> > allows
> > * a focused facet of the soul to interact with physicality. This
> > persona or
> > * ego structure is essentially an artificial construct-- by which--
> > through
> > * belief (Cardinal signs-identity definition), emotion (Fixed-the
> > momentum
> > * of energy-motion), and thought (mutable-abstraction and reflection),
> > we
> > * create our experiential reality and the momentum (karma) therefrom.
> > * [image]
> > * These three modes (squares) of expression manifest through the four
> > * elements (triangles) of definition. This unified universal premise
> > is the
> > * root structure reflected through;
> > *
> > * 1) The Great Pyramids (4 TRIANGLES ON SQUARE BASE),
> > * [...]
> > -- Pyramids, DNA, and The Elements
> > --http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/pyramids.htm
>
> > So the approach to reading a chart based on counting elements and
> > characters that Edmond Wollmann presented in this thread is directly
> > related to pyramids and consequently also to the Age of Taurus.
>
> > In the top view of the pyramid, things look less harmonious than one
> > might expect from a sign ruled by Venus, at least the balance is
> > fragile and subject to possibly great tensions when some planets
> > transit (I personally associate squares with earth, certainly a grand
> > cross, symbol of a tree, and oppositions with air, as something more
> > abstract). From top, it is also not possible to see into the pyramid,
> > into the ground, so some deeper insights (Scorpio) may remain hidden,
> > like in the case of pyramids that they were graves.
>
> > (Also the overall theme reminds me a bit of the current Saturn in
> > Libra square Pluto in Capricorn situation, which would explain why it
> > became prominent in this time.)
>
> > Example 2: Ancient Greece (Mythology and everything)
>
> > Jean Richer's idea that mythological places mirror in a zodiac, at one
> > of Edmond Wollmann's sites:
>
> > http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/images/platoo1.jpg
> > http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
>
> > Ancient Greek gods were immortal, but they were all *born* at some
> > time and at a _known_ place. So the idea would be to plot where they
> > were born onto a map centered in Delphi like the one linked above,
> > like a birth chart: Where Zeus was born would be Jupiter, where
> > Apollon (and/or Helios) was born would be the sun, and so on... That
> > would give a "birth chart" for ancient Greece, its culture, and hence
> > for all cultures that followed in its footsteps...
>
> > Personally, I prefer the Greek approach, it helped them defend against
> > the much stronger and more organized Persians (Iran), which might also
> > give a clue how one might defend against their atomic bombs (which
> > they arguably likely will soon have) and their rockets to carry them
> > (which they already have)...
>
> > )o+
>
> > --
> > Jimi Hendrix live at Woodstock '69, Villanova Junction (i.e. a cross,
> > note also close sun-Neptune square*):http://video.google.ch/videoplay?docid=8608497764274521749&ei=3cR1S5r...
> > * Mon 18 August 1969, roughly around 10.55 AM or so, seehttp://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/music0_woodstock.html
>
> Hermes,
> You are apparently given to the the urge to be everywhere at
> once...:) Granted it is hard to talk about astrology without trying to
> talk about everything at the same time, but few people will be able to
> follow you...:) I think it is important to realize that no matter what
> people are discussing, whatever the topic, the goal of the person
> expressing himself is to "be there" as he or she actually is; the
> topic is just a venue--an outlet for the Self. Astrology is no
> different. I'm a Leo with Aires Asc., and my preffered topic is the
> Ego and Identity .It is just that simple, we have a "bias" for what
> we are attracted to--what will motivate us to express ourselves. So,
> *how* we say , what we say, is, or should be, the focus of what an
> astrologer "hears". Our task is to seek out individuality in a
> cloaking mask of collectively defined images and collectively coined
> languages. Astrology is the only discipline which gives an essential
> credence to the existence of individual variations on the theme "human
> being". All those collective/generic ideas which would, in effect,
> erase our individual existence, make us an enigmatic statistical
> anomaly, thus silence our particular unique voice in the world, are
> covered very well by a host of acceptable academic disciplines. It is
> not only our right, but our duty to recognize the simple fact that
> persons have an individual nature, which gives rise to an ever
> maturing,socially defined, Ego; and, that the persona of "the
> astrologer," for instance, is no different from any other persona--the
> roles we, as egos, play, by worldly necessity. The Ego is totally
> dependent on the underlying individual Identity which gives a
> foundation to that essential Ego--our socail vehicle. That we exist as
> individuals is the important message of astrology, regardless of which
> mythologies may or may not amplify or obscure that simplicity...:) A
> grouchy astrologer, for example, has a grouchy natal chart; we
> astrologers are here to perceive and explain such things as we can
> actually understand....:) Let the deep mysteries be as they are--
> beyond comprehension...:)
Thanks! :)
> Rog
)o+
Here is an image that represent my dreams of the world
and of life maybe quite well; it is a photo from 1966
(when I was born) by Ansel Adams of a freeway cloverleaf;
shown in an exhibition called "rear view mirror" at the
California Museum of Photography (Riverside, near L.A.);
first saw it in French magazine "Photo" a few years ago:
http://www.cmp.ucr.edu/exhibitions/mirror/gallery03.html
my birth chart:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sw_wR3Qj60I/AAAAAAAAACc/o1s4ErIFCho/birthchart.gif
superimposed images of photo and my chart:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S3cMmuGWsmI/AAAAAAAAAbE/6P7GZBds-l8/cloverleaf.jpg
Or course, just because creations are mirrored by the
birth chart, that does not mean they are worth less.
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Here is a chart for New Year 2010 for Sydney, Australia, one of the
first places on earth to see the new year (and where alt.astrology was
founded):
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S3jutnzzG6I/AAAAAAAAAbs/3S6I7n6ds-w/2010sydney.gif
As any chart for a new year in the Roman Gregorian calendar, the sun
is in Capricorn near the IC.
Following the general idea in astrology that any creation is mirrored
by the chart for when it began, this chart would not only mirror this
year, but also this decade.
The most striking feature of the chart to most astrologers is likely
the t-square in cardinal signs: moon in early cancer, saturn in early
libra, pluto in early capricorn, plus venus/sun a bit later in
capricorn. This suggests maybe that some kind of fundamentalism that
was an important theme globally in the past decade may remain, but
there will be also more creativity and motion that may lead out of
such a stuck situation. (I associate squares loosely with earth and
mars, and with the 4th sign cancer, see e.g. my "magic carpets" posts,
linked from my google profile.)
This may at the same time also suggest some rough times of change for
the Roman Catholic church, as maybe also part of a host of non-
astrological predictions - but I am too little connected to that to
speculate something more specific with regard to that (nor really
inclined to go there anyway).
The next aspect that "jumps into the eyes" is retrograde mars in leo
in opposition to jupiter-neptune-cheiron in late aquarius. This may
suggest that globalization may also remain a theme in this decade at
first, but once more there is a twist, besides obviously mars in leo
at the opposite side (hinting again at religious issues): jupiter is
leading in the conjunction, so the brother zeus who in mythology
usually wins with oversight over neptune/poseidon could maybe not
unlikely turn this otherwise problematic opposition into something
fruitful for both sides. (I associate oppositions loosely with air and
the moon, the latter also in the "gemini" sense that often the
opposing planet is perceived as an outside adversary or even enemy,
while it is often also part of an unconscious (lunar, mood) part of
oneself, and finally I associate oppositions also with the 2nd sign,
taurus.)
There is a sextile between uranus and retrograde mercury, which maybe
suggests also the opportunity for thoughtful progress of a maybe
somewhat gentler kind...
In terms of "big" planets (sun-pluto) in elements: 1 fire, 1 air, 2
water, 4 earth (plus nodes); in characters: 6 cardinal, 2 fixed, 1
mutable.
Where this decade will lead, is arguably the chart for 2020, the death
of this decade and the birth of the next:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S3jut8j540I/AAAAAAAAAbw/SqhQ8CJ5uis/2020sydney.gif
Besides squares to cheiron, which I also drew, it will all be trines
and sextiles, so maybe this decade will gradually turn into something
a lot more relaxed and harmonious than what it started with? First, I
guess, things might get rougher or also more balanced and stable - as
suggested by the top view of a pyramid - when uranus will enter aries
and complete the grand cross in transit (first brief "dip" into aries
will be this summer around May 28th - Aug 15th).
Or something like that... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Feb 18, 11:05 am, "Astralis" <pippo@pluto.it> wrote:
> The Horoscope of Greece: How Uranus transitting the MC helped bring Greece
> to its knees - click on the title or "vai al post"
>
> http://blog.astralis.it/
Thanks for the interesting article by Myrthe Sardjoe.
I liked her opening sentence "It's noisy in Greece". I often have had
the impression that Uranus in Pisces (transiting now the MC of Greece,
as said in the article) is often only able to capture the "noisy" side
of Pisces, the sea at storm, but is often unaware, or even trying to
suppress, the more subtle and multifaceted sides of a calm sea and the
mysteries it contains. Lots of almost end of the world fantasies
lately in the world (pandemias, and so on), but what actually happened
was often much less. Anyway, I find it not a good idea how the E.U. is
trying to "handle" Greece, not wise and open enough in my feeling
(Greece has Jupiter in Pisces). In Switzerland, where I live, it is
normal that larger cantons ("states") with lots of industry pay to the
less populated ones, like say the ones in the mountains. Nature and
heritage and community is also considered something important; money
is just the means for achieving things like freedom and justice, but
not the goal. The chart for the independence of Switzerland - partly
real, partly mythological - of August 1291 features almost all planets
and the n.node in Leo, opposite only Pluto in Aquarius.
One Example: A few years ago, while a freeway way built in
Switzerland, some dinosaur tracks were found. Work was stopped and the
very government division that builds the freeways subsidized
archeological research there. It was all carefully dug up and
photographed etc., and then the construction of the freeway was
continued, also in the knowledge that in that area there would almost
certainly be more dinosaur tracks, so destroying these with building
the freeway would not do too much damage. So, respect for nature and
yet still not ultimately in the way of progress.
)o+
On Feb 20, 5:51 pm, "Astralis" <pippo@pluto.it> wrote:
> "Hermes" <astalder25@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:d492853e-670e-493b-8294-9b6abaea1452@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >Anyway, I find it not a good idea how the E.U. is
> > trying to "handle" Greece, not wise and open enough in my feeling
> > (Greece has Jupiter in Pisces).
>
> Interesting your comments. Concerning EU, I think that keeping Greece inside
> EU is strategic and that's why they decided to handle that way. Politically
> more than economically.
Sure, a unified Europe without Greece would just not be "Europe" in my
feeling. I just meant to say that a "saturnian straightjacket" over a
Jupiter in Pisces seems not like the best or healthiest imaginable
approach for the future of Greece and Europe. Time will tell...
> > In Switzerland, where I live, it is
> > normal that larger cantons ("states") with lots of industry pay to the
> > less populated ones, like say the ones in the mountains. Nature and
> > heritage and community is also considered something important; money
> > is just the means for achieving things like freedom and justice, but
> > not the goal. The chart for the independence of Switzerland - partly
> > real, partly mythological - of August 1291 features almost all planets
> > and the n.node in Leo, opposite only Pluto in Aquarius.
>
> How do you figure the recent crise between Switzerland and Libya?
> Unfortunately I have no certain date for Libya constitution to compare but
> maybe it's possible to find out something interesting from the chart of your
> country.
Here are two charts for Switzerland:
Federal state of 1848 (event is the vote in parliament on the
constitution, if my memory is correct):
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S4AyXvATJyI/AAAAAAAAAeA/lgAcrLxMLr0/ch1848.gif
Source: http://www.astro.com/nat/natch2_e.htm http://www.astro.com/nat/nat_e.htm
Mythological founding date (Bundesbrief "early August 1291",
Rütlischwur):
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S4AyYBwiG-I/AAAAAAAAAeE/h0WuX50PXvE/ch.gif
Bundesbrief (Swiss Federal Charter) translated to english:
http://www.admin.ch/org/polit/00056/index.html
I have not looked specifically at the issue with Libya. Things are
generally quite settled in Switzerland anyway, like a very old lion,
business as usual, the issue will likely be settled by some kind of
rather secret deal between Libya (Ghadafi), Switzerland, and likely
other countries, sometime in the midterm future. As a citizen, often
all I have to worry about in Switzerland is that politicians move too
much in a direction I do not want things to move, which can usually be
moderated by popular vote a bit later on. Regarding UBS, for example,
such control by direct democracy was practically impossible in the
past decade due to globalization (Pluto in Sagittarius, Uranus/Neptune
in Aquarius) - a Swiss law would simply have driven them out of
Switzerland. This year, for example, there will be a popular vote on a
law that would restrict bonuses for managers (would be voted on by
stock holders) and more, plus a more moderate counter proposal by
parliament (this often happens in such cases), looks like one of them
has a good chance of passing. I see a lot of this reflected in the old
chart of 1291.
Besides the charts of Libya, I would also look at the chart of
Ghadafi, after all he is the one who will decide on the side of Lybia.
Lybia is apparently the ancient Greek name for "Africa" and the issues
of pride would likely hint at some Leo, too, I guess?
> I also would ask you for permission to insert your comment even on my blog -
> in case you won't do it on your own -.
OK, feel free to insert it (and this one, if you like)... (I hope I
got all facts and charts right...)
> Regards.
> Astraliswww.astralis.it
)o+
This is the last of my texts I wrote in 2009. I was first not
sure whether also to post it here, because the astrology is
maybe a little crude in it, because I wanted to reach also
scientists with the text. It is about finding symbolic
content in science, in its theories, its development, and
in the people who make discoveries, and so on.
With that I would also like to take a long break from posting,
maybe forever. Posting to usenet and publicity has very seldom
brought me luck or some form of happiness. An exception was
last autumn and early this year, thanks a lot for that.
I have started to read the Little Prince by St. Exupery (not
just now, already some time ago in little steps), and if
someone wonders, I really found a "magic pearl", a wax
pearl that I attached inside a self-made wristband so that it
presses on my radial nerve on my hand, and this often relaxes
the tension in the overstressed nerves in my left arm and
shoulder (and generally on my left side, where also the
oesophagus is hurt where it connects to the stomach, etc.)
Anyway, things are gradually getting better with swimming
daily, and other physical stuff here and there...
[Photo of my left hand with wristband and magic pearl]
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MxzUJOMWV9XOWNRxXxUoUA?feat=directlink
Here is a brief excerpt from the current ephemeris of
asteroid Hermes:
19.02.2010 Hermes 25 pi 12'53.5642
20.02.2010 Hermes 25 pi 52' 2.1732
21.02.2010 Hermes 26 pi 31'30.3705
22.02.2010 Hermes 27 pi 11'18.4048
23.02.2010 Hermes 27 pi 51'26.5263
24.02.2010 Hermes 28 pi 31'54.9861
25.02.2010 Hermes 29 pi 12'44.0393
26.02.2010 Hermes 29 pi 53'53.9531
27.02.2010 Hermes 0 ar 35'25.0197
As you may have noticed, Hermes (my nickname and associated
with nerves) has met my natal Cheiron (=hand, chirality is
handedness, so left-right (moon-sun), and healing).
Best wishes,
)o+
-- BEGIN TEXT --
science revisited
Various symbolic takes at exact science, mostly related to
physics: Its theories, how they emerge, and the people involved.
Minimal style teasers for scientists...
Architecture of Physics
Consider this table that divides the world into 4 different
concepts (inspired by the 4 classical elements):
(1) individual imagination ("fire")
(2) logical consequences ("air")
(3) collective wishes ("water")
(4) physical reality ("earth")
At first sight, the conclusion would likely be that physics is
made of (2) and (4), mathematical descriptions based on
empirical evidence, without any (1) or (3).
But let me look a bit more in detail into these concepts.
Mathematical theories are for all that it appears purely (2),
just logic, independently of any empirical observations. Physics
uses math to describe logical connections between
observed/measured numbers. In that sense, observation or
measurement is fundamentally the process by which (4) is turned
into numbers, on which then (2) can operate. This has the maybe
somewhat unexpected consequence that math, (2), can a priori not
be applied to describe measurement, simply because there are no
numbers, yet.
The perception of what exactly is an acceptable measurement in
physics, is also not something that can be described by (2).
Acceptable measurements, like using a ruler or reading a dial
are just a minimal collective agreement, hence (3): the minimal
common denominator of which observations made by different
individuals can be considered independent of the individual who
makes them.
So there is a minimal amount of (3) in physics, and individual
observations may not always be free of (1), at least that
possibility cannot be formally excluded.
Research in physics usually involves quite a bit of (1) and (3).
Personal preferences and ideas, (1), are usually a main
motivator that determines the kind of experiments or theoretical
work a researcher conducts. Since research often needs funding
and some experiments, like most prominently in particle physics,
need machines bigger and more complex than any individual can
build in a lifetime, (3) is also an important practical factor
in research.
Of course, once a new theory is found, the (1) and (3) elements
involved in getting there no longer matter much. They become at
most a matter of taste interpretation of the meaning of the
theory, but they have no influence on specific predictions made
by the theory. So an established theory is 'condensed back' to
mostly (2) and (4).
Structured Research
In light of the considerations above, good research would be
characterized by a balance of the concepts above. If one
component is underdeveloped, the chance to find new science will
typically be reduced.
There is a paradox contained in a paradigm of balance: If
everything is balanced, then nothing is biased, thus there is an
imbalance between being balanced and imbalanced. In that sense,
optimal research would be something that can only be aimed for,
but never provably reached.
To some degree, however, a balance of the 4 concepts helps
already in itself. For example, (3), typically leads to 'fashion
waves' in research, to extended periods in time in which many
people try to reach the same goal with similar means. So (3)
rather creates bias, (1) rather reduces it.
At the onset, it is never clear which approach will bring new
science. In low energy quantum mechanics, for example,
relatively astonishingly most progress has come from (2), from
skillfully applying the math of the theory, which lead to Bell's
Inequalities and Decoherence. Especially the latter is becoming
important for technical realization of a new breed of quantum
mechanical devices.
In contrast, experiments (4) in that field have so far always
just reproduced what quantum theory predicts, not a single
exception has been observed. Thus in hindsight, the energy
invested in experiments was wasted. But only in hindsight.
Before conducting the experiments, nobody knew, and expectations
to find something useful by just applying the apparently so
simple linear theory seemed not to carry much potential at the
onset...
So, finding a balance will probably always remain a challenge.
What might help to reduce bias somewhat, though, would be to
keep an overview of research directions, ideally in a formalized
way, something like a global open database.
Ideally, such a database would also contain information about
theoretical and experimental approaches that lead nowhere,
failed attempts that today usually remain unpublished. Quickly,
and maybe anonymously, publishing what was tried and how and why
it failed, could spare other researchers some effort, in the
interest of all (3), but would, of course, sometimes also help
immediate competitors, hence would reduce (1) a bit. Such logic
tail-biters are what makes maintaining a healthy balance so
difficult...
Science in Time
In astrology, all things are considered to be bound in their
time to some degree. This would include science and even
astrology itself. Let me look at the long term history of
astrology and science from the point of view of astrology, more
precisely in terms of astrological ages.
Due to the precession of the earth's axis, the star sign that
rises above the horizon on the ecliptic at sunrise at the
beginning of spring, changes about every 2150 years. That time
span is believed by astrology to be strongly colored by the
respective star sign.
The last such transition was roughly around 0 CE and the next
one is due relatively recently in terms of the relevant time
scale. So very roughly the Age of Aries was until 0 CE, then the
Age of Pisces until about now, followed by the Age of Aquarius.
In my personal view, the second half of each age is increasingly
colored by the opposite star sign of the zodiac, i.e. Libra from
about -1000 to 0, Virgo from 1000 to 2000 and Leo might show
from about 3000 to 4000.
This would place the ancient Greek developments of mythology,
mathematics, philosophy, and also of a lot of astrology in
today's form, within the second part of the Age of Aries,
influenced quite heavily by Libra.
The association fits very well. Libra is an air sign, generally
considered to be related to logic, abstract thinking,
mathematics, etc. The zodiac of the ancient Greeks is an
abstraction from constellations, each sign has been given an
equal part of the zodiac, and each sign has an opposite sign
with in many respects opposite properties, opinions and
approaches. Hence all opposites balance each other, like in the
scales that Libra stands for.
Modern science, in turn, has evolved in the second part of the
Age of Pisces, and would thus be colored by Virgo. Spurred by
ancient knowledge brought to Middle Europe during the crusades,
during the renaissance people started to analyze the outer world
in all its aspects.
This fits well with Virgo, a quite pragmatic earth sign in
astrology, opposed to Pisces who is often afraid of knowing
things in detail, just like many people in the Middle Ages.
Initially, in science the primary focus has been on analysis, on
understanding how the world works. Technological applications
have only recently come into focus, maybe since about 200 years
or so, which would, again, fit very well with first signs of the
Age of Aquarius.
In astrology, Aquarius and its ruling planet Uranus, which was
discovered a bit more than 200 years ago, stand for progress,
for bringing knowledge in useful form to the masses, symbolized
by the water bearer Aquarius who is altruistically pouring water
for all of humanity.
Superimposed on that big picture in astrology, is the movement
of planets through the signs, which provides relatively short
term trends in society.
In recent years, several planets have dwelled quite a bit the
sign of Aquarius, which showed in a certain industrialization of
science. In the early 1990s when I was at IBM Research, a lot of
fundamental science was done there. In the past 20 years,
however, in most places, research has heavily shifted towards
technology, towards applying and refining already present
knowledge.
As always, such bias is both good and bad. Likely being aware of
it can be useful and helpful. Even if one doubts that different
times are colored in the way astrology predicts, the set of
opposites that astrology defines can in itself be very useful
for becoming aware of contemporary bias.
You can then decide to go with the flow, which means usually
easier funding, but less prospects of finding something really
new, or you can try to go your own way, maybe with a few
renegades with similar interests. (1) or (3).
Fundamental Questions
If you had asked a physicist in 1900 if the future is
predetermined, the answer would have been:
"Yes, once you know position, momentum and mass of all parts of
a system - and these can be measured with arbitrary precision -
you can predict the full state of the system at any time in the
future with certainty."
Since about 1930 that has changed, due to new experimental data
and the development of quantum mechanics. So today's answer is
the right one ?
Nobody can tell for sure. The general reason is in the
architecture of physics: It is (2) based on (4). Hence whenever
new observations are made, the laws of physics can change
fundamentally. Older theories remain useful as approximations,
like classical mechanics.
This makes science generally unable to answer any fundamental
question with certainty. But you can also get in many ways very
close. Almost certainly nobody would have come up with something
of the subtle beauty of quantum mechanics or relativity, had
these structures not been revealed by experiments and their
subsequent analysis...
Arguably physics is a bit like democracy:
"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in
this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is
perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government except all those other forms that
have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill in 1947
Measurement Inside
Current perception is that an objective measurement of things
inside the mind is not possible. Of course, a 1 : 1
transposition of the way things are measured outside is not
helpful. Imagine, say, measuring the height of an imaginary oak
tree with an imaginary ruler. You cannot give your ruler to the
next guy so that he can measure his imaginary oak tree and then
compare the results.
However, most people would agree that one can imagine an oak
tree and that one can imagine a ruler. So there is common ground
of a somewhat more abstract kind.
How the color red appears in my head and how it appears in yours
might be completely different things, but the concept of colors
and of a color red is shared.
So maybe a science based on words and their relations would be
possible: A mapping of shared inner concepts onto words, which
can then be shared and handled outside and inside the mind. This
would likely lead to a more scientifically structured
description of symbols than previously (Freud, Jung, astrology,
etc.), and maybe in points similar to some other things I am
playing with on this web site.
Anyway, here are two maybe a bit exotic ideas related to inner
and outer observations.
The first one is based on the experiences with observing dreams
that Richard Feynman describes in Surely, you're joking, Mr.
Feynman! (Bantam Books, 1985). While dreaming, often fantastic
things seemed possible, like to see a hair in much more detail
than would be possible with the naked eye. But when awake, such
experiences seemed to have been merely illusions. I suppose this
was also the reason why Feynman eventually gave up on this.
There is a possible twist however. Feynman observed that one can
influence what happens in dreams to some degree. So, why not try
to dream of future events, and maybe even gradually in ways in
which any other explanation than real precognition can be
excluded ?
It would not matter then if observations during such dreams were
objective or anything, all that would matter would be if what
you wrote down afterwards would correlate with future events.
Too far out ? Here's the second idea...
Currently, some physicist disagree about whether quantum
mechanics is an important part of how the brain works, at least
in terms of creating a conscious mind. Does any coherence in the
brain decay almost immediately due to interaction with the
environment, or is coherence a key necessity for life and
consciousness ?
Well, maybe that question can be answered with a stopwatch.
Algorithms have been developed that would allow a quantum
computer to solve certain tasks quicker than any classical
computer. Hence, if the brain is a quantum computer, maybe some
people can solve certain tasks quicker than would be possible
with a classical brain. And that could be measured, with simple
means.
3+1 in Nature
Many things in physics come in 3+1. Three dimensions of space
plus time. Three components of momentum plus energy, which are
all independently conserved. Three forces in nature have been
unified, electromagnetic, strong and weak interactions, but the
fourth force, gravitation, seems to be different: spin 2
symmetry (hence no negative charge), intertwined with space and
time, very weak.
A belief that 'the fourth is different' is apparently quite old
and related to the number π, which is believed to be related to
perfect harmony because it links the diameter of a circle to is
circumference, and the circle was often considered the most
perfect geometrical figure. In that view, the first 3 things are
similar, but the fourth is bound to be different, in fact about
4-π ≈ 6/7 different from the other three.
If you toss 4 coins, the chance to get 3+1 is really bigger than
any other result:
4+0 2/16 0.125
3+1 8/16 0.500
2+2 6/15 0.375
And if you use coins with skew probabilities you get this
distribution that suggests the same:
[image]
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mtfOhSc41y_ahq-S-SQGeQ?feat=directlink
But if you do the same with 3 coins, you get a similar result,
too, i.e. 'the third is different'. And with more coins, it
simply turns out that the maximum is near the middle, at
(n/2+1)+(n/2-1) if n is even and at (n/2+1/2)+(n/2-1/2) if n is
odd. So, no, that cannot be the reason for 3+1 in nature, at
least not that alone. The question remains open.
But maybe it has still some predictive power. There are three
known families of quarks and leptons in particle physics. The
existence of a forth and similar family can be pretty much
excluded at the moment, but a sufficiently different fourth
family can, of course, not be ruled out and might even appear in
future experiments.
Sun and Discovery
Let me finish with something more closely related to astrology,
but applied to theories in physics and their discoverers. It is,
in my view, amazing how precisely the sun sign of discoverer and
the symbolism of the theory often match.
Let me present some examples. I am assuming that you are either
familiar with some basic sun sign astrology or have read the
corresponding parts of this web site.
Niels Bohr had the sun in Libra. His principle of
complementarity, a fundamental inseparability of wave and
particle properties in quantum mechanics, fits Libra, which
balances opposites, very well, also in further aspects.
Albert Einstein had the sun in Pisces. It is a general attribute
of the last water sign, Pisces, to consider practically
everything in the world relative, which fits obviously with
Einstein's most famous discoveries.
Erwin Schrödinger and Paul Dirac both had the sun in Leo, which
shows in the similar equations they discovered and in the
similar ways in which they did this.
Werner Heisenberg, who had the sun in Sagittarius, discovered
the same basic laws of quantum mechanics as Schrödinger, but in
his matrix calculation formulation the perception of nature is
fundamentally different: In the Schrödinger picture, the wave
function evolves and operators are constant, in the Heisenberg
picture, it is the other way round. This fits again very well
with the more philosophical perceptions of Sagittarius as
opposed to Leo.
The interaction picture in quantum mechanics is between the two,
reminding of Libra, which is in the middle between Leo and
Sagittarius in the zodiac.
The reason the sun sign apparently shows so prominently in these
discoveries is that the sun is typically considered in astrology
to be related to things that people put their heart into. What
exactly that is, may often not be obvious in the life of a
person from outside, but if it is a major discovery, then it
usually comes to light.
Of course, astrology would also allow to look in more detail
into how and why discoveries came to be. In the case of
Einstein, interesting topics might be why 1905 was so fruitful
for him and for which reasons he gave the money of his Nobel
Prize to his first wife...
leads
* Some ideas here were first publicly described in A few new
discoveries in physics in 2002. See archive (odyssey.zip).
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
-- END TEXT --
My google profile and most images will remain online:
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
It would make me very happy if someone would from time to
time visit and read my web site. I hope to write and paint
the basic content in the best possible way, "with my heart",
over time, and keep it small in the sense of St. Exupery:
"Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a
plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher."
"It would seem that perfection is attained not when no more
can be added, but when no more can be removed."
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Feb 21, 10:45 pm, "A B" <a@a.uk> wrote:
> Sorry you're going, Hermes. You've been a great asset to this group!
> Having said that, I know how Usenet can get you down sometimes.
> I like "Science revisited", really thought-provoking stuff.
> See you around
> A. B.
Thanks a lot. It is just so that I find it very difficult to find a
balance between what I feel is my hobby - fundamental philosophy and
astrology - and the rest of my life.
In terms of astrology, I would associate "hobbies" with the 5th house,
although I am not sure if that is generally done so. In my chart, the
cusp of the 5th house (Placidus houses) is at 21Sco04, near the true
s.node at 21Sco12 (in the 5th) and also conjunct Neptune at 19Sco25
(in the 4th). The lion's share of my 5th house is in Sagittarius,
contains the sign completely, plus a tiny bit of Capricorn at the end
(26 arc minutes), and the 5th house also contains my part of fortune
and the vertex:
My birth chart:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sw_wR3Qj60I/AAAAAAAAACc/o1s4ErIFCho/birthchart.gif
Anyway, I think I will give it another try. :)
)o+
On Feb 24, 4:07 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Feb 23, 1:22 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 21, 10:45 pm, "A B" <a@a.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Sorry you're going, Hermes. You've been a great asset to this group!
> > > Having said that, I know how Usenet can get you down sometimes.
> > > I like "Science revisited", really thought-provoking stuff.
> > > See you around
> > > A. B.
>
> > Thanks a lot. It is just so that I find it very difficult to find a
> > balance between what I feel is my hobby - fundamental philosophy and
> > astrology - and the rest of my life.
>
> > In terms of astrology, I would associate "hobbies" with the 5th house,
> > although I am not sure if that is generally done so. In my chart, the
> > cusp of the 5th house (Placidus houses) is at 21Sco04, near the true
> > s.node at 21Sco12 (in the 5th) and also conjunct Neptune at 19Sco25
> > (in the 4th). The lion's share of my 5th house is in Sagittarius,
> > contains the sign completely, plus a tiny bit of Capricorn at the end
> > (26 arc minutes), and the 5th house also contains my part of fortune
> > and the vertex:
>
> > My birth chart:
> >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sw_wR3Qj60I/AAAAAAAAACc/o1s4ErIFCho...
>
> > Anyway, I think I will give it another try. :)
>
> > )o+
>
> I was reading your analysis in alt.astrology and then it disappeared.
> Anyway it was interesting even though I had already indicated why I
> chose the colors for the cover of my book etc.
> Hope you were not offended, I just really don't wish to discuss me out
> there, just the topics under discussion. It just opens the door for
> attacks.
> Thanks!
Sure, I understand. I was not offended by any person, just the sum of
what I and other people did or did not do was familiar and used up a
lot of energy and time at least on my side; not saying any of it was
anybody's fault, except maybe the fault of the guys who founded
Usenet...*
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea—
massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
-- Eugene Spafford
"You need two things on Usenet—a civil tongue and a thick skin."
-- Steve Dorner
I removed all my alt.astrology posts from Google groups, but if you
want to take another look, here is a place that still carries them for
the moment:
http://the-oracle-answers.com/NEWSPORTAL/thread.php?group=alt.astrology
)o+
* Here is a link to a reply by DJ to a post in 2008 to
alt.astrology.tropical by me about a speculative birth chart for
Usenet, inspired by Godwin's Law suggesting a sun-Neptune conjunction
(my original, maybe somewhat "over the top" post is quoted in full):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/e88273cfb800e07e
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/user/EHWollmann
> Twitterhttp://twitter.com/Altairtheflyer
> I was reading your analysis in alt.astrology and then it disappeared.
I have just reposted it to alt.astrology, in a new thread, in a single
post, plus a couple more remarks at the end. Anyway, let me here just
say that I think your book, "The Integrated Astrological Guide to Self-
Empowerment, Vol. 1: The Chalice of Arcturus (The Integrated
Astrological Guide Series Number 1)", is of great practical value and
presents the world from viewpoints that are rarely taken in today's
time and age; to me personally it complements views from other
astrological books that reminded me of the Age of Pisces (traditional
astrology), Age of Aries (C.G. Jung's / Liz Greene's mythological/
psychological approach) with something mostly Age of Taurus /
Egyptian, but also with at least superficially Age of Aquarius traits
(somewhat more than most other relatively recent books), not
unexpectedly so to me personally, since it was published in
California.
PS: If someone would like to know about L.A. from a "12th house
perspective", I recommend the short story "Psychopolis" by Ian McEwan
in the book "In Between the Sheets" (Anchor, 1994). The story ends
with 4 people (square) at a house in the desert (Simi Valley) and
including a gun (Uranus). I had the impression of a city in which the
surface is very thin (Pisces/Neptune) already before that... Actually,
I like L.A. at lot.
)o+
I have plotted charts for the epicenters of these two earthquakes,
based on data mainly from Wikipedia:
1647
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NWnVgHpFQTgQ7_ySmHGebg?feat=directlink
2010
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hMYDWSGsf9h9_qcKgH_hmQ?feat=directlink
Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_Chile
Date: 1647-05-13 / 2010-2-27
Time UTC: 19:30 / 03:34
Magnitude: 8.5 / 8.4
Epicenter: 35*S 72*W / 35*49S 72*40'W (both rel. near Santiago)
I have used the Gregorian Calendar for the 1647 earthquake:
* Spain adopted the [Gregorian Calendar] in 1582,
* and the Spanish territories in the New World rapidly
* followed Spain's example.
-- https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Chile_History
I was aware of the 1647 earthquake because I had just given a few days
ago a booklet with a very short novel by Heinrich von Kleist about the
earthquake in 1647 to my father. (I had mentioned that short story
before on Usenet, after the tsunami in Asia, at a.a.t.)
[Kleist's short novel translated to English]
http://www.viceland.com/int/v15n12/htdocs/earthquake-in-chile-kleist-441.php
[Original text in German]
http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/?id=12&xid=1463&kapitel=1&cHash=bd3ee19d6a2
Anyway, I do not see much correlation between the charts, or am I
missing something? For all that it appears an earthquake has been "in
the air" recently...
)o+
This is a general reply to this thread and also alongside to many
topics implicitly or explicitly touched lately also in other threads,
but I think they are practically all also relevant to the chart at the
base of this thread (fitting maybe with the current Pisces-Virgo full
moon) - here is the "Aquarius cubed" chart drawing once again:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QLdZCuJpTNL-5yhsXQtWaA?feat=directlink
Nobody really mentioned houses much, as far as I remember. The
Aquarius stellium is in the 5th house (except Cheiron), Uranus and
Pluto are in the 12th, the n.node in the 11th house, Neptune in the
2nd. Depending on whether you would identify houses to some degree
with signs (essentially a modern vs. traditional thing), there would
be quite a bit of fire in this chart (counting planets in fire houses,
5th-Leo). Besides Neptune and the stellium there is also other planets
in the chart, Pluto in Virgo, etc.
To me both California and Switzerland contain a lot of mid to late
Summer. Summer has star signs 4, 5 and 6 (Cancer, Leo, Virgo). A lot
of the energy in summer is to transform the cardinal energy 4/Cancer/
Mars/Earth/Square* creatively (5/Leo/Mercury/5th element/quintile*)
into concrete opportunities (6/Virgo/Jupiter/transformation of air/
sextile*)
* See these posts titled "magic carpets" by me:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/2f342d639421ce50
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/9ddc8b75b5ebafc3
Take a look at some Swiss and Californian squares in the following.
The Swiss flag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Switzerland
Note that unlike the flags of practically all other countries, the
flag is square, not rectangular (which was actually an issue when
Switzerland recently joined the UN). A cross might at first imply
Earth (abstract symbol for a tree), but the center is quite large in
the cross, it is the "salvation" from being bound by earth, a bit like
Christ ascended to heaven from the cross. In 2002 after the Swissair
grounding a Canadian designer designed a new logo for the new company
"Swiss" and at first made the cross thinner and longer. People in
Switzerland complained and it was reset to the regular size as in the
flag.
The partly mythological, partly real founding date of Switzerland (at
least the time frame is certainly correct) has 5 planets in Leo (Sun,
Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Uranus), Saturn in Aries, Pluto in Aquarius,
moon and Neptune in Libra, Venus at the end of Gemini.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/A8ijqeWkgE6zzTbq2AMxTQ?feat=directlink
It is these planets in Leo than in my view and perception from within
Switzerland (I am Swiss, born there, lived there except for 1.5 years
in Canada) define Switzerland like nothing else. 5 times the 5th
sign, Leo, the center in the Swiss flag that harmoniously, freely and
realistically combines and balances (moon/Neptune in Libra) the
different aspects of its inhabitants (different languages etc.) and
its relations to other countries, most directly the 4 countries at the
axes of the World War's (Germany-Italy, France-Austria). The country
"rests by changing" (Heraclitus), it adapts to progress in a
collective, Aquarian sense only when absolutely necessary (Pluto in
Aquarius). It is also in that sense, as "business as usual" in which I
see the chart that many contemporary astrologers are using for
Switzerland, namely (if I remember correctly) the moment the parlament
voted/accepted the modern constitution in 1848. The Virgo sun is not
unfitting, certainly, but many other parts of the chart like the AC-DC
axis and the moon in Pisces, for example, represent more the capital
Bern (derived from "bear"). It seems to me more like a "shield" with
some symbols painted on it, designed to fear off and confuse outside
looks. There was Switzerland before that and after that moment, just
adapting to new circumstances around it, "business as usual", in my
view.
Steve Jobs, the ultimate Californian in a way, grew up with foster
parents and developed in some way a preference for rectangles with
rounded corners. From the old Macintosh user interface with rounded
corners at the corners of the screen and options to draw rounded
rectangles in MacPaint and MacDraw, to an iPhone or a Mac keyboard
these days, its all rectangles or squares with rounded corners. Here
is an anecdote featuring Steve Jobs and the genius programmer Bill
Atkinson who made parts of the original Mac user interface, MacPaint,
*HyperCard*, and by the way for the latter also the "hand cursor" that
you can see in practically all web browsers today:
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Round_Rects_Are_Everywhere.txt
So, two different approaches to the same theme: Cross, but with a
large center, and rectangular, but with round corners. I prefer both
approaches to the variation that the Nazis chose, the rolling/walking
cross, the swastika.
In terms of the Uranus cycle, the world would now be a bit before 1930
or so, i.e. a quite dangerous time ahead, judging only from that
planet and assuming that history might blindly repeat. It was
historically the time frame in which the German Nazis started to
industrially apply all the new methods that had been invented and
tried out by Fashists in Italy. But I think it might rather not come
out like that this time, maybe best to let have Berlusconi have his
"free me" law, so that he can retire and does not have to hang on to
his job at all costs.
Switzerland and the USA share the n.node in Leo and that they started
out of a desire for freedom, the USA vs. England etc., Switzerland vs.
European outsiders, in both cases external influence, influence by
people who were not rooted in the country and yet wanted to dictate it
what to do. In both places people assembled, wrote down their
declaration of independence, and then diligently and realistically
made it happen. Of course, there are many differences in the details,
the charts are otherwise also quite different in many aspects, but the
heart is there, I would say.
Regarding banks and bank customer secrecy: What UBS did in the USA was
certainly criminal, also according to Swiss law. But to conclude from
criminal actions by globalized banks and some very rich people
avoiding to pay taxes, that bank customer secrecy is the problem, that
governments should be able to see all bank transactions of its
citizens in detail (as the EU demands), is simply not right. A free
citizen is free to invest his money where he or she desires, it is
certainly not the business of the government to control this, to spy
on its citizen. In my view and not unlikely shared by a majority of
the Swiss, bank customer secrecy is simply a human right. In
Switzerland for citizens with "normal" incomes the system works very
well. Taxes are low, people on average pay their taxes more correctly
than in other countries (e.g. Germany) and if you forget to indicate
something or even if you "forget" to do so, it is not a criminal
offense, you just get (a relatively high) fine and have to pay the
avoided taxes.
With direct democracy, the view of a "government" is different.
Actually it is not a government, it is an administration, it is what
is necessary to operate a state, but the people in the administration
do not decide, only temporarily until eventually it comes to a popular
vote. Countries may have bent Swiss politician's opinions to some
degree today and in the past, but what matters in the end is if you
manage to convince the population. If things would go too far, the
vote will simply be no. Of course, popular vote is often a bit crude.
Take the vote on minarets lately. Better would of course be a
regulation which minarets can still be built, but only if they sort of
"fit in", do not disturb the peace by being too big or in an area
where it offends people too much. Blame politicians for not having
proposes a more moderate counter proposal to the popular initiative,
as it was much more common 10 or 20 years ago. Again, the same theme,
late summer, personal freedom, independence and self-determination of
one's own fate, to the degree possible and in agreement with nature
and the world outside. Note, for example, that the web site of the
Swiss "government" is called "admin.ch", i.e. adminstration, not
rulership.
But back to California, a state that also knows forms of direct
democracy, the form of government installed in ancient Greece
prominently in Athens, in the Virgo section according to Jean Richer's
zodiac centered in Delphi. The Athenians defended against the Persians
apparently around "11 September", i.e. again Virgo sun. The
constitution of California apparently took some elements from the one
of Zurich, the largest Canton in Switzerland (and where Roman Polanski
was arrested).
So, the "aquarius cubed" chart, what does it express, where would
problems maybe come from at this moment? Look at progressions and
transits, or is it maybe all already there in maybe partially being a
mirror of the mentioned issues. Creativity is the way out of it. I
imagined around new year what Sarah Palin might do if elected to
president in 2012 and thought that maybe she would blow up a glacier
or mountain in Alaska with a nuclear bomb, so that the dust would
reduce global warming. Maybe not even the worst idea, maybe some
radiation would be better than the sea flooding the homes of millions
of people living near the sea. Dreams, also in relation to Neptune in
Virgo of the USA, are important, imagination, such things should be
dropped last, not first, like the dream to fly to Mars, like in the
60s (and announced early then) to the moon. The Apollo (sun god)
project in the immediate sense only cost money, but it spurred also
lots of innovation and industries, and it helped create and maintain
the American Dream.
Bush Jr. was to enclosed in the country, like many of its inhabitants
(sun in Cancer), he was not aware that the American Dream was dreamt
by much more people *outside* of the USA, so a policy that totally
ignored opinions outside and only adhered to local opinions and
feelings has effectively destroyed the dream for many people outside
of the USA and afterwards also inside worsened things. The only way
out of this for the USA in my view is a good mix of realism and
dreams, the current democratic government is apparently only good at
the former, but lacks the latter. This eternal fight between the two
brothers in Gemini (Uranus/Mars conjunction) has in my view to get off
its "bitter path" of recent years. Gemini is also about diplomacy and
finesse. In the past, maybe I see that too naively from the outside,
democrats and republicans might disagree during office hours, but be
aware that they are just two sides of the same who do for sports, for
getting a good way to do things, argue about things, but do not
ultimately take it all that serious. A bit like the coyote and the
shepherd dog in cartoons, where they check in their time when they
come to work, then during the day the coyote tries to capture sheep,
and in the evening the they check out and wish each other a nice
evening.
As another mirror of the state in California, Apple has been
commercially very successful lately, but its products got darker and
darker, most monitors got a black frame like in an announcement that
someone died (except for the round corners), and Steve Jobs almost
died. But he recovered and this weekend I bought a new iBook, with a
completely white frame around the monitor again. That's a start, I
think things will get better soon, simply because they must and there
is nowhere else to go into the old, wrong directions. And in the
meantime, in Switzerland it will be business as usual...
)o+
PS: Sometime, I would also like to hear this story from the side of
Drue Beall, the "owner" of this fascinating chart (she posted under
her real name a few times to alt.astrology, but did not reveal much,
nor would I say she necessarily should, of course). All in all, I
guess California is still fascinating.
PPS: What do you do with all of this? Is it all Virgo-Pisces in
opposition like this full moon or in the 1848 chart or is it as I
rather think (or dream?) all Leo, Switzerland and California, or as I
once said L.A. a Pisces dreaming about Leo and Libra (i.e.
Switzerland, too), all that sunny shiny thin surface, or is it all
again not what it seems...
On Mar 9, 7:35 am, BikerMagi <bikermagi@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you look at any given time to the degree on the eastern horizon
> that is "rising" at that moment you get the "rising" sign or
> ascendant. (Elaine says yata, yata, yata). Now, in the chart, say my
> chart for example (16 Aug 1961 13:57 Eastern Standard Time (Phila
> diocese had issues with summer time at that time), Camden, NJ). The
> sun is in the chart at a little past the midheaven at about where it
> would be in the sky, right? Righhht...
>
> The Ascendant is there on the eastern horizon at 6 Sag.
>
> But the ascendant is what is ON THE HORIZON, and does not represent
> Sunrise! That was somewhere around 6:17, and sunset was more than
> twelve hours away, around 7:32 (EDT). About one and about a quarter
> hours more than the twelve hours that a flat horizon would indicate.
>
> That 1.25 hours is about 19.2 percent of a twenty-four hour period,
> or ... holy macarel Batman ... 69 degrees (roughly), if you multiply
> 360 degrees by 19.2 percent. This means there is so much daylight on
> the day I was born to essentially mandate that the angles would need
> to be adjusted OVER A WHOLE SIGN on BOTH sides to accurately depict
> day and night.
>
> Now I know questioning this is akin to questioning the religion of
> some people, so I am trying to tread lightly ... but if astrology is
> to represent the conditions accurately, then I cannot say the
> ascendant separates day from night in the chart because day was longer
> than 12 hours and thus the horizon is NOT a valid indicator!
>
> Even if I were totally DAFT, at least I want to communicate what I am
> talking about. I am looking to define the day/light interface in the
> chart... and this is NOT accomplished by the flat horizon.
>
> Is there a house system that adjusts for seasonal daylight
> variations? It just seems necessary to determine where day begins and
> ends in the chart.
>
> Surely one such as myself could not have seen something that no one
> has ever seen before?
I think it's an interesting idea, would also usually take some out of
the tension out of the angles, by wedging at least the horizontal
line. Why not, it's not like all the other house systems that are used
are fully consistent/natural either (else there would arguably much
less of them). Reminds me also for some reason I cannot fully fathom
of full moon, when, say, in summer the sun rises high and long during
the day and at night the full moon stays low and during a short night.
Reminds me also of Austin, TX, I guess where as far as I remember
tourists assemble before a big bridge to see lots of bats come out at
sunset. Just a few weeks ago I have started an open-source software
project on the side that also sort of features "your friendly bat next
door" (see logo at the link below!), reminds me also a little bit of
the glyph for the star sign Pisces:
http://jexler.sourceforge.net/
Holy open-source software, Batman! ;)
)o+
> ======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> Recommended:http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ast_com.html
On Mar 7, 1:26 am, Kjell <kjelleman@gmail.com> wrote:
> Every year, on the vernal equinox, it is the International Astrology
> Day. (Who came up with it? I don't know, if you do, please tell!)
I found something. Appears that the day was founded in 1993 by AFAN,
the "Association for Astrological Networking". Toni Thomas Dore writes
the following at http://www.afan.org/
"International Astrology Day was founded by AFAN in 1993, an outgrowth
of the "Astrology Awareness Weekends" which AFAN had sponsored for
several years previously. The goals of the new holiday were to expand
networking opportunities among the astrological community, to direct
media attention to positive aspects of astrology, and to help raise
funds for local astrological groups and for AFAN's legal, media, and
other networking projects."
The contact info for AFAN shows Beverly Hills, CA, so maybe a "birth
chart" for the International Astrology Day would be the first midnight
of a day during which the sun had entered Aries in Beverly Hills in
1993, or something like that ? Here is a chart for that moment (note
the "Los Angeles" grand square in cardinal signs; I guess LA/CA will
be in the focus in the coming few years, I hope not too much of a big
quake will be part of it):
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5ye5T3hLAI/AAAAAAAAAxY/WDAv_ICLYHo/first-international-astrology-day.gif
)o+
> Do you plan anything for it? Is doing something for that day a good
> way to promote astrology?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Astrology_Day
>
> What would you think could be a good way to observe the IAD?
>
> /Kjell
On Mar 9, 7:35 am, BikerMagi <bikermagi@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That 1.25 hours is about 19.2 percent of a twenty-four hour period,
> or ... holy macarel Batman ... 69 degrees (roughly), if you multiply
> 360 degrees by 19.2 percent. This means there is so much daylight on
> the day I was born to essentially mandate that the angles would need
> to be adjusted OVER A WHOLE SIGN on BOTH sides to accurately depict
> day and night.
Slight mistake in magnitude above: not 24/1.25 = 19.2 "%", but 1.25 /
24 x 100 = 5.2%, so 12 x 0.052 / 2 = 0.31 signs on each side. I
nonetheless still like the idea, even though it is arguably
unorthodox. Is also not so that in all house systems the angles fall
on house cusps, would not necessarily have to be so here either. In
places at high latitudes would at times give births with only houses
7-12 (no worries about money or work ;) or only houses 1-6 (no death,
no prisons etc ;), what is also in a way a fascinating consideration,
if only maybe for an occasional relocation...
)o+
Edmond H. Wollmann wrote:
> The "Earthquakes in the air" aspect is the Pluto, Uranus and Saturn T-
> Square that will be waxing and waning (along with Jupiter later) for
> quite some time through 2015. This de-structurizing configuration will
> reflect both the geologic and social and economic restructuring that
> will leave the world dramatically altered over the next few years.
and in a separate reply:
> Looks like the first one had Uranus opposition Pluto!
Yes, the first chart has also Neptune conjunct Uranus and opposite
Pluto, but overall still does not look all too compulsory to me, at
least in the sense of being able to predict anything beyond a time
frame of years or only to prove a correlation afterwards.
But let me say something about the upcoming t-square, from the naive
standpoint of someone who has neither looked much at charts for the
upcoming years nor read any of the "2012 books" nor any kind of
astrological articles about this time frame, instead just from Pluto
in Capricorn t-square Saturn in Libra and Uranus in Aries:
The opponents in the oppositions are at a "clash of titans", two
earthy titans of the pre-Olympian generation. Pluto is Olympian,
overthrew together with Zeus/Jupiter and Poseidon/Neptune the old
Cronos/Saturn who had in turn killed his father Ouranos/Uranus before.
Uranus and Saturn each see an opponent (opposition aspect) who will
almost certainly disagree and hardly give in with regard to most
issues. And each of them sees Pluto at a square. Pluto, in turn, sees
two planets at a square and their tensions will almost always balance
each other (since those two are in opposition). So Pluto, as long has
he remains strong and hard enough (which should be almost a given for
Pluto in Capricorn), will be able to decide which way to go, often
between going back to old/traditional/conservative approaches and new
ones. There is great opportunity in that in my perspective. I
personally always like the time between Xmas and New Year, when the
sun is in Capricorn. The hardness, pragmatism and ability to plan
things make it possible for Capricorn to be almost whatever is needed
at a time, like despite being a cardinal sign also to be fixed or
mutable when necessary, etc. Of course, Uranus and Saturn will not
give in without pressure, but in each case in which Pluto decides,
say, to go with Saturn in Libra, Uranus in Aries will have two planets
against him and have to give in to overwhelming force, and vice-versa.
It is a situation a bit like the character "Gemini" in the Batman
comics, a guy with sort of a Janus head (Janus-January-most of
Capricorn), with one side of his face distorted by an accident, the
other side normal. He usually throws a coin at the beginning of each
episode, and depending on the outcome helps the good guys or the bad
guys in the episode. The element of luck is already part of Capricorn
(oracles), but also might be brought in by Zeus/Jupiter later in the
grand square. Jupiter is of the same generation as Pluto, and the
opposition of early 2001 was quite swift and effortless as far as I
remember, certainly in relation to the subsequent Pluto-Saturn
opposition of 2001-02.
Of course, I may have overlooked many things, but to me there is to
first order a lot of opportunity in this constellation.
By the way, if I was "king of the world" and would feel like deciding
today like Pluto in Capricorn what to do with astrology, I might do
this by 2020:
a) Eliminate "myself", i.e. Pluto, from all charts by default, i.e. by
default show only sun, moon, Mercury-Neptune, and the nodes; anything
else (smaller objects and points) only from case to case, and
especially in the case of Pluto for historical charts (i.e. charts for
people/events before 2020).
b) Remove rulerships of signs from Uranus and Neptune (and of course
from Pluto), i.e. essentially go back to the traditional system of
dignities; still draw aspects to Uranus and Neptune, consider them as
essentially "aquarian" (as in Age of Aquarius), as collective,
progressive trends of the time, in both a conscious and a rather
unconscious variant (which is, of course, not a new concept, but make
that the standard by 2020).
c) Probably leave the rest as is, no need to change more than
absolutely necessary :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
Why things got so dark after about 2003...
Hypothesis: The current time since about 2003 is
colored by the first object of its kind discovered
then, namely Sedna - just like the time after 1930
was colored by Pluto (nuklear power etc.), the time
after 1848 was colored by Neptune (photography,
automobile, oil, etc.) and the time after 1781 was
colored by Uranus (enlightenment, revolutions,
steam machine, railways, etc.). In astrology it
counts at least initially more to be the *first*
object found of a kind than to be the biggest one.
Sedna rules most likely Libra to the same degree
that Pluto rules Scorpio and/or does not.
For more, please "do the math, connect the dots"...*
)o+
* Sorry folks, after the last of three Sedna transits
across my n.node, I simply do not have the "fingers"
to type more, the transits, at least the first two,
did affect fingers on my left hand, quite precisely
at the times of the transits. Luckily, it will now
be about 10000 years before the next such transit. :)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different... (and not dark at all :)
On Apr 15, 9:20 pm, BikerMagi <bikermagi@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 3:11 pm, Kjell <kjelleman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If you want to add "additional horoscope dimensions" by adding things
> > that are not part of a proper horoscope, I surely do not understand
> > what you meant by these questions:
>
> > Could you perhaps be persuaded to elaborate on what you meant by these
> > questions? I would also be very much interested in learning about what
> > > Because
> > > there are things that work better in the day (i.e. the Sun) and things
> > > that work better at night,
>
> Since what I was trying to say was obscured, obfuscated or for some
> other reason wasn't coming through (my Mercury is compbust, sorry),
> I'll respond by reference:
>
> seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology_of_sect
>
> Wouldn't it be nice to include the sunrise/sunset boundaries so that
> an astrologer could see at a glance where it was, visually, so that
> the right brain could comprehend the symbols without the necessity of
> interpretation on the part of the left brain analytical function?
But that boundary is simply the AC-DC line. How the longer days in
summer come into this, is so to speak not in "space" but in time: If
you imagine a sequence of charts for (say) each hour on a given day,
the rotation of the chart wheel will be slower in summer when the sun
is above the AC-DC line (houses 7-12 in most house systems) and
quicker during night, so that the sun will be above the line during
most hours. (I don't want to stress it, but I still liked the idea of
"wedged horizon line", that would in a way represent visually that in
summer the sun rises and sinks more to the south that in winter, i.e.
if you measure the angle between sunrise and sunset, you get 180* only
at the equinoxes.)
I hope I got all astronomical/-logical facts right (watch out, Mercury
will go retro soon... ;)
)o+
> Bam, there it is! I can see my moon is out of sect instantly when I
> draw daylight boundaries.
>
> The BikerMagi
>
> one of my articleshttp://astrologyexpressed.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/guest-post-the-bik...
"If all we talk about is money, nothing will be funny, honey"
-- Norah Jones at the beginning of the song "It's gonna be"
I wrote:
: Why things got so dark after about 2003...
:
: Hypothesis: The current time since about 2003 is
: colored by the first object of its kind discovered
: then, namely Sedna [...].
: Sedna rules most likely Libra to the same degree
: that Pluto rules Scorpio and/or does not.
To me it's all falling into place with this hypothesis.
I can think about it easily, but writing about it just
does not seem to work, at least not at the moment.
So let me just say this: Did anybody notice a stronger
focus on money since roughly autumn 2003 ? Did anybody
notice a loss of emotional ties since about then ?
Did anybody notice a sequence of apparent catastrophes
that then usually turned out to have little physical
reality and at the same time made the rich much richer
and took away rights and money from normal people ?
If you answered any of these questions with yes, it
might be worth to review (Mercury is retrograde ;)
some events and trends from the previous decade in that
light. A quick, unsorted list:
- The 2000 stellium in Taurus.
- A unified Europe with its own currency; the myth of
Europe riding on a white bull from Crete to Europe;
the founding date of the EU with the sun in Taurus,
the origins of the EU in the fusion of cole and iron
between France and Germany after WW2, with the idea
to prevent an other war between these two countries;
so overall a construct based on money and goods.
- 9/11 with Mercury in Libra at the AC, airplanes and
targeting "World Trade Center". Subsequently sort of
a "crusade" or "pilgrimage" to Iraq, the birth place
of culture, between the two rivers, shaped like
Venus' you know what - see also the holy little known
relict in Mecca near that cube. Very tall buildings
in the Orient, like Pyramids (Senda in Taurus), but
much higher (Sedna ruling air sign Libra).
- China and other countries with low incomes as fabrics
of all kinds of industrial goods; giving work to the
one who makes the lowest offer is strongest criterion.
- Large off-roader cars; the guy in the smaller car is
out of luck in a crash.
- No smoking.
- Sarah Palin (Sedna is an Inuit goddess).
- Gradual loss of light and color in modern flat TV
screens (and computer displays); the discovery chart
of Sedna (Scorpio 2003) features the sun conjunct the
south node in Scorpio.
- Hardness, no giving in.
Sedna's myth (you can find several versions online) is
filled with "phallic" symbols, like the mind of Venus, I
guess. And it pretty much covers the life of a woman in
terms associated with the female star signs: From child
with an emphasis on material things and staying at home
(Taurus and Cancer), via marriage and motherhood (Virgo
and Scorpio), to a stricter, harder approach and sinking
back (Capricorn and Pisces) - very roughly speaking...
There seems also be a theme of what would be typically
called child abuse or pedophilia today: When Sedna was
given away as a wife to the the guy from a different
village, how old was she then? 20? 17? or rather 12 or
10 or even 8 ? At least she did not expect her husband
to suddenly reveal that he "has a beak", thinly veiled
in the story as the husband turning out to be a bird.
The situation of Senda and her father and the bird(s)
above at the water and then the father cutting Sedna's
fingers with the knife, reminds me also a lot of Roman
Polanski and his recent and not so recent story. His
first big movie, which got an Oscar in the 1960s, was
called "The Knife in the Water" and his first wife,
Sharon Tate, was murdered (pregnant!) with a knife.
As the DA in the Polanski rape case noted, all the
movies of Roman Polanski circle around the same theme:
"Innocence meets corruption near the water".
In my personal life, in autumn 2003 I made a holiday
to California with a couple I had known for quite some
time. They broke up during that holiday, actually he
announced to her that would end the relation in Las
Vegas then. He has now another girlfriend, which he
already knew then apparently. Similar to that, I have
seen many things break up since then, many apparently
stable and strong links that just broke up. A bit like
Lynn Bell put it at the 2004 Astrology World Congress
in Basel (on Easter weekend, at the same time with an
exhibition of Tutenchamun, the real stuff, not the
2008 exhibition of copied stuff): A dream a client had
told her about things breaking apart like an ice floe
breaking into many pieces (arctic association again).
When I came back from the holidays, the company I had
been working for had gone bankrupt, and unlike in a
similar situation 1.5 years before, this time there
was no cohesion at all between people there, most of
them ran into money problems because the company just
stopped to pay and at the same time did not formally
go bankrupt, yet, so people were kept "at limbo" (a
very much Libra theme, that has repeated since then).
Without going into details, the guy who got took over
the company after that (actually took until April in
2004), was a rich old guy (sun in early Libra, married
to a Taurus) and he and his family started to run
things in their very narcissistic ways. I will spare
you the details, but in the end, the Swiss part of the
company was gone, several branches in remote countries
were founded and, as far as I can tell, the company is
not making much money from selling software (at least
not when I was there), but as it appears, that seems
not to concern anybody, for whatever reasons...
Of course, the previous decade can also be seen in
other terms. In astrology it is normal that influences
overlap, superimpose. If something happens to someone,
then one cannot say that it was for example just his
Venus crossing the natal AC, at most it was primarily
that, but most of the time, there were several non-
negligile factors.
In this case, there were, of course, the collective
planets in that time frame, the collective planets in
the birth charts of the generations starting to gain
power and the ones losing it due to old age. Still,
to me the known planets and points did not sufficiently
explain what had happened in the past decade to me and
especially not my own usenet writings. As time goes on
and planets move on and generations pass, it will be
easier to judge this. If the themes remain, it gives
more weight to the "Sedna Era" hypothesis, if, say, it
all vanishes soon with Uranus in Aries, then...
Luckily (Jupiter in Pisces?), in a way I already wrote
a much longer and more detailed version of this post,
namely all the close to 1000 usenet posts I made between
2002 and now. I have a slow retrograde Mercury, so in
that sense, maybe just collecting all my usenet post and
stitching them together in reverse chronological order
might do just well ? And then put that up on my site ?
Yeah! :) So, it all made sense in the end, was not all
so strange as it first appeared, especially to me and
after all the world has some structure in it... Strange
choice, nonetheless, from an astronomical perspective,
but expecting the general contemporary perception of
the world to be more "correct" than in the past seems
unlikely, to say the least. ;)
In Sedna's myth, in the end sometimes the Shaman had
to dive down into the ocean and comb her hair, which
can become very unsorted because she has no hands to
comb it regularly. My posts may not be a perfect job
in that respect, but at least it's a start...
Lost in Translation (Movie 2004).
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Richard Nolle wrote:
: I don't know what it means, but I read it all from beginning to end.
: Fascinating: personal, universal, mythic and biographic . . .
Thanks! :)
)o+
I wrote:
: [...] maybe just collecting all my usenet post and
: stitching them together in reverse chronological order
: might do just well ? And then put that up on my site ?
I tried that (once more, mercury rx, I guess) and it just does not
work that way. The posts only really shine in full context, a bit like
if you tried to lift a gigantic impressive squid that lives deep in
the ocean out of the water and would then be astonished how bleak and
thin it looks in full sunshine...
If you wanted in the future for some strange reasons to look at some
of my posts that are no longer archived at google groups, see e.g.
giganews.com (they apparently carry alt.astrology.* back to about June
2003) or web.archive.com (carries an old pdf by me with posts up to
autumn 2003 or so).
My "Sedna Hypothesis" would explain in my view also quite well why
usenet, as a "purely text based dialogue platform", has apparently
been losing (at least in terms of volume) since a few years to shinier
web based forums with images and colors and fonts (appeal to Venus'
vanity) or public outlets that do not involve a dialogue (at least not
on equal footing), like blogs or twitter, etc. But again, other
interpretations are possible at the moment. Time will tell... ;)
)o+
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http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Elementary models of astrology, by a Swiss physicist.
October 2005:
"Visually more appealing and coherent, the site
has become. Yet, quite abstract and scientifically
condensed, its content still is. An illustrated
step-by-step tutorial in preparation is. -- Yoda"
X-No-Archive: Yes
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Martin Lewicki wrote:
: I've been doing planetcentric charts with the help of Starrynight for
some
: years and I have written on this but it has fallen on deaf ears. I
think
: the astrology world simply is not ready to get off the Earth! This is
not
: surprising considering that astrology is steeped in traditional
geocentric
: philosophy.
:
: I have done a selenographic chart for the Apollo 11 Moon landing for
local
: lunar coordinates and *lunar tropical zodiac*. At the moment of
landing the
: Earth was at cusp 9 of long distance travel!
:
: So rather than plotting in the traditional Earth tropical zodiac I
have
: more appropriately transformed the positions into the lunar tropical
: zodiacal coordinate system that uses the lunar orbit as the
"ecliptic" and
: the lunar equatorial tilt to define its own equinox and thus "0
Aries"
: which for various dynamical reasons happens to be the same as the
lunar
: node. Thus the Moon has its own intrinsic tropical zodiac that is
offset
: from that of the Earth zodiac and has a precession of its equinoxes
just
: like Earth though in this case it is 18.6 years instead of 26,000
years.
:
: Similarly each of the other planets have their own intrinsic tropical
: zodiacs tied to their seasons that oriented differntly than that of
Earth.
: Eg the Mars Aries point is offset at our 25 Sag. Thus NASA's rovers
on Mars
: would have experienced the winter solstice (NH) on 16 August 2005
19:58 MTC
: (Mars Time Coordinated) or 16:06 UTC (Universal Time - Earth). At
that
: instant the Sun crossed the cusp of Martian tropical Capricorn!
:
: I suggest planetcentric charts should be refered to the zodiac that
is
: generated by the planets' own orientintion to it orbital and
rotational
: characteristics. That is use a tropical zodiac that would be
experience by
: vistor and inhabitants on that planet.
In light of Uranus in Pisces (the sign best able to take the
standpoint of other people), I suggest to go even further,
to fully assume the standpoint on another planet.
For example, the reason we have a 12-sign zodiac is arguably
quite a bit because a year has a bit more than 12 months.
I assume that real Martians, for example, would base their
astrology primarily on the trinity of the sun and the two
moons Deimos and Phobos, with the moons maybe getting a
more hermetic or Gemini meaning, with their meetings in the
sky (if there are any, I don't know) probably having quite
significant meanings.
)o+
chrissyb wrote:
> I have always understood that, astrologically speaking, narcissm
> was a definition to be found within Aries as sign and Mars as its
> planetary function. An abundance of aspects to fire signs, especially
> in the 1st house, as well as an emphasis on the natural 1st-6th signs,
> that work subjectively, would seem to 'enlarge' such a possibility.
>
[citing H:]
> > Narcissists are unable to deferentiate their needs and desires from
> > those of others. Therefore whatever they like or prefer, they believe
> > everyone else likes and prefers also -- or should. They have no ego
> > boundaries so the other person has no reality as a separate person.
> >
>
> This could also apply to Aries/Mars. As 1st sign, Aries has no
> experience of interaction with another, is unaware that another exists
> other than or outside itself. It's why Aries/Mars , astrologically
> speaking, are known as egotistical, but to be otherwise would be asking
> them to be other than they are.
See also my post "exactphilosophy" that I just posted to aat/aam
and which I hope to appear within the coming days...
(Assuming, of course, that everybody here will like it just as
much as I enjoyed writing it ;)
)o+
I wrote
: The element that is associated with blood ("red curtain") is
: Fire. The landscape that is obscured by the curtain is "sky,
: sea, and sand", i.e. Air, Water and Earth. In other words,
: Fire seems to obscure the view onto the other elements, onto
: a more balanced view of the situation.
There is again a Libra-style ambiguity here, a duality that
cannot really be resolved, just like considering an electron
to be either a wave or a particle leads to paradoxes:
The element Fire is also associated with vision, with light.
Like Teiresias is blinded by Hera and at the same time given
"inner vision" by Zeus, outer vision can in some sense make
biased, give one element (Fire) more weight than the others.
Looking inside can help to mend that somewhat.
And so on ... picture within picture, cut out text and reply to it...
)o+
I rest my case. :) :) :)
General announcement (not completely unrelated):
Pluto is clearly dying and losing the fight against Saturn
in the aftermath of 9/11, look also to Austria (c.f. escape
of Natascha Kampusch in summer 2006 just after Pluto
was no longer considered a planet; Eris discovered in
a research program started in 2001, i.e. Sat opp. Plu).
The facts are at the moment whispering for me and in
the future they are most likely bound to speak up...
I have time (and other things to do in my life)...
Farewell,
)o+
--
hermes-370E8E.09074808122007@news.bluewin.ch
X-No-Archive: yes
Petrus wrote:
: Hey guys,
: Was wondering if anyone could help me put together a chart for the
release
: of The Dark Knight? I know it's going to be somewhere between the
12th and
: 18th of July, but I'm unsure of the exact time. I think the chart
for this
: film could be very interesting, and I'd also like to cross reference
it with
: the US national chart; theory about current politics I've got going.
:
: I was able to put together a chart for the Australian release, but I
don't
: have time of day or exact date for the American, which I'm assuming
is going
: to be the important one. I also really need to get this information
before
: the film's release, as I've noticed such material tends to get lost
after a
: film has come out.
The premiere is July 14th, in New York City. Could not find a time,
I presume it will rather be evening than morning or afternoon.
For example: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/a99243/ledger-tribute-for-batman-premiere.html
)o+
X-No-Archive: yes
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: Hi Hermes,
:
: Mercury is still slow, so I also notice a lot of problems with
: email, as well as ordinary mail. I'm expecting packages which
: I'm told have not arrived and I'm quite worried, because one I
: have been waiting for about a year (a pre-order on a CD set).
:
: In any case, thank you for your persistence here and for your
: interesting post!
Thanks!
Very interesting what Richard Nollle wrote about Mercury.
Was really unexpected this time that things remained stuck
in a way after Mercury turned direct again...
)o+
X-No-Archive: yes
Apollia wrote:
: Hi Hermes, very interesting stuff. I can't think of anything
: interesting to reply to it just yet, but, I guess I just wanted to
say
: hi, and thanks for your reply to me last May, it was very
encouraging
: and much appreciated.
:
: Things have improved for me in some ways since then, so, I've
changed
: my mind about not reading or posting to this board, since I've been
: doing a lousy job of avoiding forums other than this one anyhow. :-)
Happy to hear that :)
: Maybe with transiting Mercury approaching my natal Mars and Mercury,
: I'll have the energy/inclination to participate more here and
: elsewhere.
:
: I hope you're doing well.
Yes, while the sun was in Gemini I have done a lot of learning Java
(for a certification as "Sun Certified Java Programmer" from Sun).
Even though the exam is "just" multiple choice questions, there are
a lot of details to learn and knowing them by heart is really useful
in my daily work -- Saturn in Virgo. Have tried it all essentially all
out
in Eclipse, and even wrote down all the necessary details in very
brief form onto about 60 cards (in HyperCard). Is fun to do something
like that ("back to school") again.
)o+
X-No-Archive: yes
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >>My toilet, <deleted for Kjell's comfort>, was born on June 7th,
2008
: >>at approximately
: >>6:00 PM. He protests when I clean him because he insists
: >>that it is sinful vanity. Where would you find that in his
: >>chart?
:
: >Taurus/Pisces and to some extent Virgo. These seem to be the signs
: >most comfortable with messes.
:
: Not bad, but if you saw the chart, even a noon chart, it would
: jump right out at you. It also shows unusually strange attitudes
: regarding women. :-)
I don't see it directly in the chart...
My strongest association is from a story I first told at the
German newsgroup de.alt.astrologie. A few years ago (Nov '02),
some supermarkets in Geneva, Switzerland sold toilet paper with
the signs of the zodiac imprinted on it. They had to remove it -
not after protests by astrologers - but after protests by Muslims
because apparently the glyph for Virgo, when looked at in a
mirror or upside down (the german reports I found now via Google
disagree), looks similar "Allah" written in Arab.
So, which is it ? Germany and also de.alt.astrologie have a
heavy Capricorn influence. Saturn in Virgo because Saturn rules
Capricorn and I relate Islam to Virgo ? Or maybe (because of the
ambiguity on how to mirror or turn things) something to do with
retrograde Mercury in Gemini who keeps Venus tightly between
himself and the sun ? Or something to do with water (because
what else could a toilet use to strike back) ? Uranus in Pisces
or Neptune conjunct n.node in Aquarius (Geneva, where the largest
machine of the world is located (LHC Cern) and ISO and UNO) ?
Which is it ?
)o+
X-No-Archive: yes
whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
: You'll have to view this with a fixed width font. First, Asc.
: ruler is humorless and contentious Mars, conjunct SN and with
: applying Moon, in proud Leo in the 9th of religion.
:
: In the 10th of "his" reputation is Saturn in Virgo - a
: 'difficulty' with, or disinclination to, cleanliness, echoed by
: the close conjunction of Sun, Venus, and ruler Mercury, RX,
: moving away (I'd say "running away") from the planet of
: cleanliness and all things pleasant, Venus. So, a strong Gemini
: Rx Merc rules 10th house Virgo Saturn, and 8th house Gemini Sun,
: Venus, Merc. Additionally, Uranus squares Sun, Venus and
: Mercury... We could go much deeper but I prefer to leave it at
: that.
:
: 'Nuff said.
OK, that's the chart I was looking at (was using a different house
system so that Mercury/Venus/Sun were in the 7th, but still conjunct
the cusp of the 8th. I just noticed that there is a full "chain of
dominants" ruled by Mercury (German "Dominantenverkettung" - Sorry,
I don't remember the english term at the moment, but I think e.g.
astrolog can calculate such chains):
Mercury (rules Gem)
=> Sun (in Gem)
=> Mars (Sun rules Leo)
=> AC (Mar rules Sco)
=> Moon (Sun rules Leo)
=> s.node (Sun rules Leo)
=> Venus (in Gem)
=> DC (Ven rules Tau)
=> Saturn (Mer rules Vir)
=> Pluto (Sat rules Cap)
=> AC (Plu rules Sco)
=> Jupiter (Sat rules Cap)
=> Uranus (Jup rules Pis)
=> Neptune (Sat rules Aqu)
=> Uranus (Jup rules Pis)
=> IC (Sat rules Aqu)
=> n.node (Sat rules Aqu)
=> MC (Mer rules Vir)
Or more graphically (use fixed font):
Mer
---- / \ ----
/ / \ \
Ven / \ MC
/ / \
DC Sun Sat ---------
/ \ / | \ \ \
Mars Moon / | \ \ \
/ / | \ \ \
AC s.node IC Jup Nep Plu
\ / |
\ / |
Ura AC
First saw such a chain (also with Mercury on top) in the
example of Kafka:
http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK21.htm
(Text is in German, but there is a graphic with the planets
near the bottom of the page...).
)o+
: Chart for <deleted for Kjell's comfort>, the toilet:
:
: Regiomontanus
: 03 LIB 02 VIR 22 CAN
: * SA02Vir * *
:
: *
: * * *
: 27 LIB * SU17Gem
: 16 GEM
: * * * SN21Leo * VE17Gem
*
: * *MA16Leo ME17Gem *
: * * *MO14Leo* *
: * * *
: * * ** * ** * *
: * *
: * *
: 19 SCO ****************** *******************
19 TAU
: * *
: * *
: * * ** * ** * *
: * * *
: * *NN21Aqu* * *
: * PL00Cpr NE24Aqu* *
: * PF17Cpr * * UR22Pis *
*
: 16 SAG JU21Cpr *
: 27 ARI
: * * *
: *
: * * *
: 22 CPR 02 PIS 03 ARI
From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.marketplace
Subject: ANNOUNCE: exactphilosophy.net 2009
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exactphilosophy.net 2009
What's new this year:
* evolutions => long-range feelings
How a simple hypothetical assumption, namely that there is a sort
of unconscious communication between people, yields a picture of
reality in which astrology, collective unconscious, god or gods,
precognition, free will and fate, and a lot more similar things,
would have a natural part in the scientific view of the world,
and would also explain why formally proving the existence of such
phenomena has essentially failed so far...
* elementary philosophy => space and time
Added a photo and a simple illustration of the basic idea.
* evolutions => elemental cycles
"How Aristotle's cycle of the elements might grow naturally from
the ideas presented previously, at least as one of just very few
simple possibilities."
* evolutions => magic carpets
A short collection of some of my previous public contributions,
most of them to usenet and related to astrology.
* More little changes
See for yourself, the site consists only of about 15 pages or so,
hence you can get a detailed overview in less than 5 minutes...
In the queue for next year:
* More stuff directly related to astrology, like my simple model of
the star signs in terms on transitions between the elements, and
some more original ideas. Stay tuned... :)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
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From: Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology,alt.astrology.metapsych
Subject: Re: Am I 100% Aquarian?
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Drue Beall wrote (25 Oct 2009):
> Here is my info:
>
> DOB: 02/04/1962 @ 8:22 pm,
> POB: Lynwood, ca. LOS ANGELES COUNTY
>
> Thanks
I have seen in your public google profile that you have also very
recently posted your birth data to other groups. Just in case you are
not aware of it, there has been some discussion around your birth
chart at alt.astrology.moderated:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/0c384c481bea07a3
It does not center so much around your chart - in many respects the
discussion was more between astrologers about how a chart should be
read (but at the example of your chart), but maybe you can still find
something helpful or interesting there. One poster, "Pedantus" noticed
that your birth chart is very similar to the one of country singer and
writer Clint Black:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Black,_Clint
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Black
http://www.clintblack.com/
As far as I remember, almost all astrologers who commented, suspected
also that you might do something artistic (music, etc.), not
necessarily as a profession, but would be in some way connected to
art, or that doing something artistic would somehow give you more
balance or stability in life if you did it (or maybe the latter part
is more my interpretation ;).
Actually, you may prefer to read your chart yourself. First steps are
not so difficult. You could start at www.astro.com ( and read what all
the planets, signs and aspects very roughly mean,
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_intro_e.htm
and apply it to your birth chart,
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/Sz2q88EBsCI/AAAAAAAAAXc/WeOiTJXa0Tc/aquarius-cubed.gif
What astrologers do is often just that, but based on more reading and
direct experience of chart vs. person.
There is also a public forum at astro.com with a section for posting
charts for a free reading. Likely more "civilized" than usenet, but
maybe also less dedicated in a way. Matter of taste, you can always
take a look at previous answers to posts there (You need to register
to post, but reading is freely possible). And astro.com offers also
computer generated analyses of charts (the ones that cost are probably
as good as you can get in this world today, but nothing is perfect and
without bias, even there, again matter of taste in the end, they have
sample reports to get an idea).
I hope you don't mind, I have also been so free to google a few
minutes for your name and e-mail. Let me just say this: Until a few
years ago there was an astrologer who posted in usenet and even
moderated one of the groups for some time, who reminded me at least
according to these public bits of you: Female, born in 1961 in
California, has been a strong supporter of Bush Jr. (at least until a
few years ago), and as far as I could tell also relatively religious
(Christian). As far as I could tell, she did not feel at all that
doing astrology was somewhat at odds with the rest of her life. And
good luck and best wishes with your husband and family - if one thing
is clear to an astrologer from your chart, it is that because you have
*so many* planets at one place, things that happen will happen more
focussed in your life than in the lives of most other people. It is
also so that there is currently (in the world, not your personal
chart) what astrologers call a "hard aspect", a square in this case,
between Saturn and Pluto. The last time there was a hard aspect
between these two planets (an opposition), was around 2001/02 (i.e.
9/11, start of the war in Afghanistan, etc.). And also the northern
lunar node was in Capricorn both times. One of the advantages of
astrology is that it can tell you how long things last. The mentioned
square, for example, will carry on into summer 2010, if I remember
correctly.
I hope this can be of some help and is not considered too intrusive.
(I am a Swiss physicist, see links below.)
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Ray Murphy wrote (12 June 2008):
: Take all that's stats stuff recently - hundreds of posts - with Hermes
: talking nonsense and refusing to accept the facts.
I am sure you would be glad to explain the Theory of Relativity
to Albert Einstein... ;)
Ray Murphy wrote (today):
: RM: It doesn't matter any more. I got a better idea.
Good luck with:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt-astrology-moderated
Are you sure you checked the legal situation?
It might at least be misleading to some people to find
two groups with almost the same name at google groups,
but which are otherwise not related.
Especially after the announcement by Kendra yesterday to
the moderated *usenet* newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated:
: For the time being, alt.astrology.moderated exists on both Usenet
: and Google Groups. We therefore have no need for a yahoo group
: at this time.
(at the time when she posted, if I am not mistaken, the google
group that I listed above by link and which apparently you (Ray
Murphy) founded, did not yet exist...)
)o+
PS: Why "moderated" in the name if the group is not???
In article <hermes-A14FB7.18202628062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> Ray Murphy wrote (12 June 2008):
>
> : Take all that's stats stuff recently - hundreds of posts - with Hermes
> : talking nonsense and refusing to accept the facts.
>
> I am sure you would be glad to explain the Theory of Relativity
> to Albert Einstein... ;)
>
> Ray Murphy wrote (today):
>
> : RM: It doesn't matter any more. I got a better idea.
>
> Good luck with:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt-astrology-moderated
>
> Are you sure you checked the legal situation?
>
> It might at least be misleading to some people to find
> two groups with almost the same name at google groups,
> but which are otherwise not related.
>
> Especially after the announcement by Kendra yesterday to
> the moderated *usenet* newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated:
>
> : For the time being, alt.astrology.moderated exists on both Usenet
> : and Google Groups. We therefore have no need for a yahoo group
> : at this time.
>
> (at the time when she posted, if I am not mistaken, the google
> group that I listed above by link and which apparently you (Ray
> Murphy) founded, did not yet exist...)
>
> )o+
>
> PS: Why "moderated" in the name if the group is not???
Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
good luck and bye,
)o+
In article <hermes-95EABD.20275228062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <hermes-A14FB7.18202628062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > Ray Murphy wrote (12 June 2008):
> >
> > : Take all that's stats stuff recently - hundreds of posts - with Hermes
> > : talking nonsense and refusing to accept the facts.
> >
> > I am sure you would be glad to explain the Theory of Relativity
> > to Albert Einstein... ;)
> >
> > Ray Murphy wrote (today):
> >
> > : RM: It doesn't matter any more. I got a better idea.
> >
> > Good luck with:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt-astrology-moderated
> >
> > Are you sure you checked the legal situation?
> >
> > It might at least be misleading to some people to find
> > two groups with almost the same name at google groups,
> > but which are otherwise not related.
> >
> > Especially after the announcement by Kendra yesterday to
> > the moderated *usenet* newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated:
> >
> > : For the time being, alt.astrology.moderated exists on both Usenet
> > : and Google Groups. We therefore have no need for a yahoo group
> > : at this time.
> >
> > (at the time when she posted, if I am not mistaken, the google
> > group that I listed above by link and which apparently you (Ray
> > Murphy) founded, did not yet exist...)
> >
> > )o+
> >
> > PS: Why "moderated" in the name if the group is not???
>
> Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
>
> good luck and bye,
>
> )o+
Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
good luck and bye,
)o+
In article <hermes-F369F8.20290528062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <hermes-95EABD.20275228062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <hermes-A14FB7.18202628062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Ray Murphy wrote (12 June 2008):
> > >
> > > : Take all that's stats stuff recently - hundreds of posts - with Hermes
> > > : talking nonsense and refusing to accept the facts.
> > >
> > > I am sure you would be glad to explain the Theory of Relativity
> > > to Albert Einstein... ;)
> > >
> > > Ray Murphy wrote (today):
> > >
> > > : RM: It doesn't matter any more. I got a better idea.
> > >
> > > Good luck with:
> > >
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt-astrology-moderated
> > >
> > > Are you sure you checked the legal situation?
> > >
> > > It might at least be misleading to some people to find
> > > two groups with almost the same name at google groups,
> > > but which are otherwise not related.
> > >
> > > Especially after the announcement by Kendra yesterday to
> > > the moderated *usenet* newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated:
> > >
> > > : For the time being, alt.astrology.moderated exists on both Usenet
> > > : and Google Groups. We therefore have no need for a yahoo group
> > > : at this time.
> > >
> > > (at the time when she posted, if I am not mistaken, the google
> > > group that I listed above by link and which apparently you (Ray
> > > Murphy) founded, did not yet exist...)
> > >
> > > )o+
> > >
> > > PS: Why "moderated" in the name if the group is not???
> >
> > Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
> >
> > good luck and bye,
> >
> > )o+
>
> Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
>
> good luck and bye,
>
> )o+
Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
good luck and bye,
)o+
In article <hermes-6A0CFE.20292928062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <hermes-F369F8.20290528062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <hermes-95EABD.20275228062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <hermes-A14FB7.18202628062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> > > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ray Murphy wrote (12 June 2008):
> > > >
> > > > : Take all that's stats stuff recently - hundreds of posts - with Hermes
> > > > : talking nonsense and refusing to accept the facts.
> > > >
> > > > I am sure you would be glad to explain the Theory of Relativity
> > > > to Albert Einstein... ;)
> > > >
> > > > Ray Murphy wrote (today):
> > > >
> > > > : RM: It doesn't matter any more. I got a better idea.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck with:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt-astrology-moderated
> > > >
> > > > Are you sure you checked the legal situation?
> > > >
> > > > It might at least be misleading to some people to find
> > > > two groups with almost the same name at google groups,
> > > > but which are otherwise not related.
> > > >
> > > > Especially after the announcement by Kendra yesterday to
> > > > the moderated *usenet* newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated:
> > > >
> > > > : For the time being, alt.astrology.moderated exists on both Usenet
> > > > : and Google Groups. We therefore have no need for a yahoo group
> > > > : at this time.
> > > >
> > > > (at the time when she posted, if I am not mistaken, the google
> > > > group that I listed above by link and which apparently you (Ray
> > > > Murphy) founded, did not yet exist...)
> > > >
> > > > )o+
> > > >
> > > > PS: Why "moderated" in the name if the group is not???
> > >
> > > Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
> > >
> > > good luck and bye,
> > >
> > > )o+
> >
> > Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
> >
> > good luck and bye,
> >
> > )o+
>
> Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
>
> good luck and bye,
>
> )o+
Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
good luck and bye,
)o+
In article <hermes-9DCACE.20295028062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <hermes-6A0CFE.20292928062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <hermes-F369F8.20290528062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <hermes-95EABD.20275228062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> > > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <hermes-A14FB7.18202628062008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> > > > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ray Murphy wrote (12 June 2008):
> > > > >
> > > > > : Take all that's stats stuff recently - hundreds of posts - with
> > > > > : Hermes
> > > > > : talking nonsense and refusing to accept the facts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure you would be glad to explain the Theory of Relativity
> > > > > to Albert Einstein... ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray Murphy wrote (today):
> > > > >
> > > > > : RM: It doesn't matter any more. I got a better idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck with:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt-astrology-moderated
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you sure you checked the legal situation?
> > > > >
> > > > > It might at least be misleading to some people to find
> > > > > two groups with almost the same name at google groups,
> > > > > but which are otherwise not related.
> > > > >
> > > > > Especially after the announcement by Kendra yesterday to
> > > > > the moderated *usenet* newsgroup alt.astrology.moderated:
> > > > >
> > > > > : For the time being, alt.astrology.moderated exists on both Usenet
> > > > > : and Google Groups. We therefore have no need for a yahoo group
> > > > > : at this time.
> > > > >
> > > > > (at the time when she posted, if I am not mistaken, the google
> > > > > group that I listed above by link and which apparently you (Ray
> > > > > Murphy) founded, did not yet exist...)
> > > > >
> > > > > )o+
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: Why "moderated" in the name if the group is not???
> > > >
> > > > Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
> > > >
> > > > good luck and bye,
> > > >
> > > > )o+
> > >
> > > Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
> > >
> > > good luck and bye,
> > >
> > > )o+
> >
> > Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
> >
> > good luck and bye,
> >
> > )o+
>
> Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
>
> good luck and bye,
>
> )o+
Then again, "de quoi je me mêle?"...
good luck and bye,
)o+
In article
<d584da15-865a-4dab-bf69-3a3bab07620c@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Ray Murphy <raymur@chariot.net.au> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 3:19 am, Kendra <Kendra@NoSpam.NotHome> wrote:
> > After a lot of communication between the moderators and Gail, and
> > [.....], Gail has advised me that I banned [....] in error. [....] is
> > now un-banned, with my apologies for the mix-up, to him, and to
> > the group.
> >
> > Ray is still banned for the standard one month ban starting from
> > the ban date. The ban is imposed because of at least 3 rejected
> > posts in a 30 day period,
>
> RM: This is a lie. There were NOT 3 rejected posts in a 30 day period.
> All "rejected posts" for aamod can be found here:
> http://www.algebra.com/cgi-bin/check-stump-message.mpl
>
> >and because he posted abusive messages
> > to the alt.astrology.moderated sister group on yahoo,
>
> RM: Informative messages acually -- about your ruthless and erroneous
> behaviour, but in any case, irrelevant to the alt.astrology.moderated
> charter.
>
> > which I did
> > consider abusive emails to the moderators,
>
> RM: Once again you are wrong -- an email is an email and a Yahoo
> message doesn't BECOME an email in reality - even if it appears to do
> so within your own skull.
>
> > Kendra
>
> Ray
Congratulations! According to Google Groups you have
just today achieved to post more than 10'000 posts in
your posting history:
http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=FCl_cRUAAACHjGloqlxP4Q9kgUuYNq3gt9nX1f_IZ9UOLC3HnZOrEA&utoken=5YM3BU8AAAD-NCikpJLxIG28N84ZqQCXOw40u6oINCZ55xTGwI5kOHLG8ot9kc2jhtAYHHXHVflKk24pY3XW4BIlRc-cJJIhCoof5Om-jyHXE3-ryCzdcA
Nice choice of icon that white Parrot in front of a yellow
background...
Parrots speak, but they essentially repeat what they
heard before, and they do in that sense not really react
all that much to what others tell them, at least not to
the degree that one would expect when talking to a human
being... In a way certainly also a mirror image of "the
general human condition", but then again not really to
that degree usually (which is just as important to most
people I know in a conversation).
Aware where Mean Black Moon Lilith is at the moment ?
Are you thus exaggerating your latent religious catholic
fundamentalism? Trying to purify yourself and the whole
world with it? Or something like that? Death drive?
Of course the narrow bandwidth of usenet etc. does turn
people into carricatures of themselves to some degree,
but from some point on, it is no longer meaningful.
May I never end like this and retain at least the wisdom
to listen to the ones around me should I ever get anywhere
near such fanatism and stubborness...
Slartibartfast: Mean spirited old idiot! Get a mirror.
)o+
--
Samuel Beckett
Krapp's Last Tape
A late evening in the future.
Krapp's den.
Front centre a small table, the two drawers of which open towards audience.
Sitting at the table, facing front, i.e. across from the drawers, a wearish old man: Krapp
Rusty black narrow trousers too short for him. Rust black sleevless waistcoat, four capaciou pockets. Heavy silver watch and chain. Grimy white shirt open at neck, no collar. Surprising pair of dirty white boots, size ten at least, very narrow and pointed.
White face. Purple nose. Disordered grey hair. Unshaven.
very near-sighted (but unspectacled). Hard of hearing.
Cracked voice. Distinctive intonation.
Laborious walk.
On the table a tape-recorder with microphone and a number of cardboard boxes containing reels of recorded tapes.
table and immediately adjacent area in strong white light. Rest of stage in darkness.
Krapp remains a moment motionless, heaves a great sigh, looks at his watch, fumbles in his pockets, takes out an evelope, puts it back, fumbles, takes out a small bunch of keys, raises it to his eyes, chooses a key, gets up and moves to front of table. He stoops, unlocks first drawer, peers into it, feels about inside it, takes out a reel of tape, peers at it, puts it back, locks drawer, unlocks second drawer peers into it, feels about inside it, takes out a large banana, peers at it, locks drawer, puts keys back in his pocket. He turns, advances to edge of stage, halts, strokes banana, peels it, drops skin at his feet, puts end of banana in his mouth and remains motionless, staring vacuously before him. Finally he bites off the end, turns aside and begins pacing to and fro at edge of stage, in the light, i.e. not more than four or five paces either way, meditatively eating banana. He treads on skin, slips, nearly falls, recovers himself, stoops and peers at skin and finally pushes it, still stooping, with his foot over the edge of the stage into pit. He resumes his pacing, finishes banana, returns to table, sits down, remains a moment motionless, heaves a great sigh, takes keys from his pockets, raises them to his eyes, chooses key, gets up and moves to front of table, unlocks second drawer, takes out a second large banana, peers at it, locks drawer, puts back his keys in his pocket, turns, advances to the edge of stage, halts, strokes banana, peels it, tosses skin into pit, puts an end of banana in his mouth and remains motionless, staring vacuously before him. Finally he has an idea, puts banana in his waistcoat pocket, the end emerging, and goes with all the speed he can muster backstage into darkness. Ten seconds. Loud pop of cork. Fifteen seconds. He comes back into light carrying an old ledger and sits down at table. He lays ledger on table, wipes his mouth, wipes his hands on the front of his waistcoat, brings them smartly together and rubs them.
KRAPP
(briskly). Ah! (He bends over ledger, turns the pages, finds the entry he wants, reads.) Box . . . thrree . . . spool . . . five. (he raises his head and stares front. With relish.) Spool! (pause.) Spooool! (happy smile. Pause. He bends over table, starts peering and poking at the boxes.) Box . . . thrree . . . three . . . four . . . two . . . (with surprise) nine! good God! . . . seven . . . ah! the little rascal! (He takes up the box, peers at it.) Box thrree. (He lays it on table, opens it and peers at spools inside.) Spool . . . (he peers at the ledger) . . . five . . . (he peers at spools) . . . five . . . five . . . ah! the little scoundrel! (He takes out a spool, peers at it.) Spool five. (He lays it on table, closes box three, puts it back with the others, takes up the spool.) Box three, spool five. (He bends over the machine, looks up. With relish.) Spooool! (happy smile. He bends, loads spool on machine, rubs his hands.) Ah! (He peers at ledger, reads entry at foot of page.) Mother at rest at last . . . Hm . . . The black ball . . . (He raises his head, stares blankly front. Puzzled.) Black ball? . . . (He peers again at ledger, reads.) The dark nurse . . . (He raises his head, broods, peers again at ledger, reads.) Slight improvement in bowel condition . . . Hm . . . Memorable . . . what? (He peers closer.) Equinox, memorable equinox. (He raises his head, stares blankly front. Puzzled.) Memorable equinox? . . . (Pause. He shrugs his head shoulders, peers again at ledger, reads.) Farewell to--(he turns the page)--love.
He raises his head, broods, bends over machine, switches on and assumes listening posture, i.e. leaning foreward, elbows on table, hand cupping ear towards machine, face front.
TAPE
(strong voice, rather pompous, clearly Krapp's at a much earlier time.) Thirty-nine today, sound as a--(Settling himself more comfortable he knocks one of the boxes off the table, curses, switches off, sweeps boxes and ledger violently to the ground, winds tape back to the beginning, switches on, resumes posture.) Thirty-nine today, sound as a bell, apart from my old weakness, and intellectually I have niw every reason to suspect at the . . . (hesitates) . . . crest of the wave--or thereabouts. Celebrated the awful occasion, as in recent years, quietly at the winehouse. Not a soul. Sat before the fire with closed eyes, separation the grain from the husks. jotted down a few notes, on the back on an envelope. Good to be back in my den in my old rags. Have just eaten I regret to say three bananas and only with difficulty restrained a fourth. Fatal things for a man with my condition. (Vehemently.) Cut 'em out! (pause.) The new light above my table is a great improvement. With all this darkness around me I feel less alone. (Pause.) In a way. (Pause.) I love to get up and move about in it, then back here to . . . (hesitates) . . . me. (pause.) Krapp.
Pause.
The grain, now what I wonder do I mean by that, I mean . . . (hesitates) . . . I suppose I mean those things worth having when all the dust has--when all my dust has settled. I close my eyes and try and imagine them.
Pause. Jrapp closes his eyes briefly.
Extraordinary silence this evening, I strain my ears and do not hear a sound. Old Miss McGlome always sings at this hour. But not tonight. Songs of her girlhood, she says. Hard to think of her as a girl. Wonderful woman, though. Connaught, I fancy. (Pause.) Shall I sing when I am her age, if I ever am? No. (Pause.) Did I sing as a boy? No. (Pause.) Did I ever sing? No.
Pause.
Just been listening to an old year, passaages at random. I did not check in the book, but it must be at least tne or twelve years ago. At that time I think I was still living on and off with Bianca in Kedar Street. Well out of that, Jesus yes! Hopeless business. (Pause.) Not much about her, apart from a tribute to her eyes. Very warm. I suddenly was them again. (Pause.) Incomparable! (Pause.) Ah well . . . (Pause.) These old P.M.s are gruesome, but I often find them--(Krapp switches off, broods, switches on)--a help before embarking on a new . . . (hestitates) . . . retrospect. Hard to believe I was ever that young whelp. The voice! Jesus! And the aspirations! (Brief laugh in which Krapp joins.) And the resolutions! (Brief laugh in which Krapp joins.) To drink less, in particular. (Brief laugh of Krapp alone.) Statistics. Seventeen hundred hours, out of the preceding eight thousand odd, consumed on licensed premises alone. More than 20%, say 40% of his waking life. (Pause.) Plans for a less . . . (hesitates) . . . engrossing sexual life. Last illness of his father. Flagging pursuit of happiness. Unattainable laxation. Sneers at what he calls his youth and thanks to God that it's over. (Pause.) False ring there. (Pause.) Shadows of the opus . . . magnum. Closing with a --(brief laugh)--yelp to Providence. (Prolonged laugh in which Krapp joins.) What remains of all that misery? A girl in a shabby green coat, on a railway-station platform? No?
Pause.
When I look--
Krapp switches off, broods, looks at his watch, gets up, goes backstage into darkness. Ten seconds. pop of cork. Ten seconds. Second cork. Ten seconds. Third cork. Ten seconds. Brief burst of quavering song.
KRAPP
(sings).
Now the day is over,
Night is drawing nigh-igh,
Shadows--
Fit of coughing. He comes back into light, sits down, wipes his mouth, switches on, resumes his listening posture.
TAPE
--Back on the year that is gone, with what I hope is perhaps a glint of the old eye to come, there is of course the house on the canal where mother lay a-dying, in the late autumn, after her long viduity (Krapp gives a start), and the--(Krapp switches off, winds back tape a little, bends his ear closer to the machine, switches on)--a-dying, after her long viduity, and the--
Krapp switches off, raises his head, stares blankly before him. His lips move in the syllables of "viduity." No sound. He gets up, goes back stage into darkness, comes back with an enormous dictionary, lays it on table, sits down and looks up the word.
KRAPP
(reading from dictionary). State--or condition of being--or remaining--a widow--or widower. (Looks up. Puzzled.) Being--or remaining? . . . (Pause. He peers again at dictionary. Reading.) "Deep weeds of viduity" . . . Also of an animal, especially a bird . . . the vidua or weaver bird . . . Black plumage of male . . . (He looks up. With relish.) The vidua0bird!
Pause. He closes dictionary, switches on, reusmes listening posture.
TAPE
--bench by the weir from where I could see her window. There I sat, in the biting wind, wishing she were gone. (Pause.) Hardly a soul, just a few regulars, nursemaids, infants, old men, dogs. I got to know them quite well--oh by appearance of course I mean! One dark young beauty I recall particularly, all white and starch, incomparable bosom, with a big black hooded perambulator, most funereal thing. Whenever I looked in her direction she had her eyes on me. And yet when I was bold enough to speak to her--not having been introduced--she threatened to call a policeman. As if I had designs on her virtue! (Laugh. Pause.) The face she had! The eyes! Like . . . (hesitates) . . . chrysolite! (Pause.) Ah well . . . (Pause.) I was there when--(Krapp switches off, broods, switches on again)--the blind went down, one of those dirty brown roller affairs, throwing a ball for a little white dog, as chance would have it. I happened to look up and there it was. All over and done with, at last. I sat on for a few moments with the ball in my hand and the dog yelping and pawing at me. (Pause.) Moments. Her moments, my moments. (Pause.) The dog's moments. (Pause.) In the end I held it out to him and he took it in his mouth, gently, gently. A small, old, black, hard, solid rubber ball. (Pause.) I shall feel it, in my hand, until my dying day. (Pause.) I might have kept it. (Pause.) But I gave it to the dog.
Pause.
Ah well . . .
Pause.
Spiritually a year of profound gloom and indulgence until that memorable night in March at the end of the jetty, in the howling wind, never to be forgotten, when suddenly I saw the whole thing. The vision, at last. This fancy is what I have cheifly to record this evening, againt the day when my work will be done and perhaps no place left in my memory, warm or cold, for the miracle that . . . (hesitates) . . . for the fire that set it alight. What I suddenly saw then was this, that the beleif I had been going on all my life, namely--(Krapp switches off impatiently, winds tape foreward, switches on again)--great granite rocks the foam flying up in the light of the lighhouse and thw wind-gauge spinning like a propellor, clear to me at last that the dark I have always struggled to keep under is in reality--(Krapp curses, switches off, winds tape foreward, switches on again)--unshatterable association until my dissolution of storm and night with the light of the understanding and the fire--(Krapp curses loader, switches off, winds tape foreward, switches on again)--my face in her breasts and my hand on her. We lay there without moving. But under us all moved, and moved us, gently, up and down, and from side to side.
Pause.
Past midnight. Never knew such silence. The earth might be uninhabited.
Pause.
Here I end--
Krapp switches off, winds tabe back, switches on again.
--upper lake, with the punt, bathed off the bank, then pushed out into the stream and drifted. She lay streched out on the floorboards with her hands under her head and her eyes closed. Sun blazing down, bit of a breeze, water nice and lively. I noticed a scratch on her thigh and asked her how she came by it. Picking gooseberries, she said. I said again I thought it was hopeless and no good going on, and she agreed, without opening her eyes. (Pause.) I asked her to look at me and after a few moments--(pause)--after a few moments she did, but the eyes just slits, because of the glare. I bent over her to get them in the shadow and they opened. (Pause. Low.) Let me in. (Pause.) We drifted in among the flags and stuck. The way they went down, sighing, before the stem! (Pause.) I lay down across her with my face in her breasts and my hand on her. We lay there without moving. But under us all moved, and moved us, gently, up and down, and from side to side.
Pause.
Past midnight. Never knew--
Krapp switches off, broods. Finally he fumbles in his pockets, encounters the banana, takes it out, peers at it, puts it back, fumbles, brings out the envelope, fumbles, puts back envelope, looks at his watch, gets up and goes backstage into darkness. Ten seconds. Sound of bottle against glass, then brief siphon. Ten seconds. Bottle against glass alone. Ten seconds. He comes back a little unsteadily into light, goes to the front of table, takes out keys, raises them to his eyes, chooses key, unlocks first drawer, peers into it, feels about inside it, takes out reel, peers at it, locks drawer, puts keys back in his pocket, goes and sits down, takes reel off machine, lays it on dictionary, loads virgin reel on machine, takes envelope from his pocket, consults back of it, lays it on table, switches on, clears his throat and begins to record.
KRAPP
Just been listening to that stupid bastard I took myself for thirty years ago, hard to beleive I was ever as bad as that. Thank God that's all done with anyway. (Pause.) The eyes she had! (Broods, realizes he is recording silence, switches off, broods. Finally.) Everything there, everything, all the--(Realizing this is not being recorded, switches on.) Everything there, everything on this old muckball, all the light and dark and famine and feasting of . . . (hesitates) . . . the ages! (In a shout.) Yes! (Pause.) Let that go! Jesus! Take his mind off his homework! Jesus (Pause. Weary.) Ah well, maybe he was right. (Broods. Realizes. Switches off. Consults envelope.) Pah! (Crumples it and throws it away. Broods. Switches on.) Nothing to say, not a squeak. What's a year now? The sour cud and the iron stool. (Pause.) Revelled in the word spool. (With relish.) Spooool! Happiest moment of the past half million. (Pause.) Seventeen copies sold, of which eleven at trade price to free circulating libraries beyond the seas. Getting known. (Pause.) One pound six and something, eight I have little doubt. (Pause.) Crawled out once or twice, before the summer was cold. Sat shivering in the park, drowned in dreams and burning to be gone. Not a soul. (Pause.) Last fancies. (Vehemently.) Keep 'em under! (Pause.) Scalded the eyes out of me reading Effir again, a page a day, with tears again. Effie . . . (Pause.) Could have been happy with her, up there on the Baltic, and the pines, and the dunes. (Pause.) Could I? (Pause.) And she? (Pause.) Pah! (Pause.) Fanny came in a couple of times. Bony old ghost of a whore. Couldn't do much, but I suppose better than a kick in the crutch. The last time wasn't so bad. How do you manage it, she said, at your age? I told her I'd been saving up for her all my life. (Pause.) Went to Vespers once, like when I as in short trousers. (Pause. Sings.))
Now the day is over,
Night is drawing nigh-igh,
Shadows--(coughing, then almost inaudible)--of the evening
Steal across the sky.
(Gasping.) Went to sleep and fell off the pew. (Pause.) Sometimes wondered in the night if a last effort mightn't--(Pause.) Ah finish yout booze now and get to your bed. Go on with this drivel in the morning. Or leave it at that. (Pause.) Leave it at that. (Pause.) Lie propped up in the dark--and wander. Be again in the dingle on a Christmas Eve, gathering holly, the red-berried. (Pause.) Be again on Croghan on a Sunday morning, in the haze, with the bitch, stop and listen to the bells. (Pause.) And so on. (Pause.) Be again, be again. (Pause.) All that old misery. (Pause.) Once wasn't enough for you. (Pause.) Lie down across her.
Long pause. He suddenly bends over machine, switches off, wrenches off tape, throws it away, puts on the other, winds it foreward to the passage he wants, switches on, listens staring front.
TAPE
--gooseberries, she said. I said again I thought it was hopeless and no good going on, and she agreed, without opening her eyes. (Pause.) I asked her to look at me and after a few moments--(pause)--after a few moments she did, but the eyes just slits, because of the glare. I bent over her to get them in the shadow and they opened. (Pause. Low.) Let me in. (Pause.) We drifted in among the flags and stuck. The way they went down, sighing, before the stem! (Pause.) I lay down across her with my face in her breasts and my hand on her. We lay there without moving. But under us all moved, and moved us, gently, up and down, and from side to side.
Pause. Krapp's lips move. No sound.
Past midnight. Never knew such silence. The earth might be uninhabited.
Pause.
Here I end this reel. Box--(pause)--three, spool--(pause)--five. (Pause. Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.
Krapp motionless staring before him. The tape runs on in silence.
CURTAIN
elisabeth (ekastlkillinger@gmail.com) wrote:
: It´s terrifying how deep hatred can sit together with this split of
: personality between Hermes and Slartibartfast, pretty horrible to be a
: witness to this.
Nah! :) :) :)
If you have a better idea how to reach Ray Murphy, shoot :)
One for you:
Yoda to Elisabeth: Search your own feelings!
)o+
PS: Pluto is dying. What a better time for this than a transit
of the southern lunar node across natal Pluto. Just make sure
not everything vanishes with it.
PPS: I know where this will go, Helas. :( Just more of trying to
stick to the impossible. Pluto is dying, and I am not to blame.
Help yourselves, mind your own business (as I will hopefully do,
but maybe that's easier with the sun than Pluto transited).
In the end it is really so: Billions of people on this world and
then the illusion that the few people who otherwise do not care
the least about what I do besides when I post, that these people
would have anything to do with my life except in my imagination.
If I get those guys who funded usenet! ;)
Pluto is dying.
elisabeth wrote:
: (......)
: > )o+
: >
: > --
: > PS: Sorry, but yes, Pluto is really dying, not dead, yet,
: > but likely will be in 20 years or so. No saying that this
: > is a good or a bad thing, is just so that Pluto had the
: > task to transform between Ages, and so things will be a
: > rolling a bit more smoothly for the next 2000 years or so
: > from now on, see alsohttp://www.exactphilosophy.net/
: > and my 2002 documents in there for a similar allegory
: > including Hermes... My time in public is up, this time
: > for real. Very strange how you often have the feeling that
: > something has ended and then it has not, but you can still
: > tell in a way when it really does. Very interesting...
:
:
: You are so right, now you are Hermes or did I get it wrong is this
: Slartibartfast? I could have a look but it´s not worth the time
: spending on it.
: I know the best time of Pluto was and will be in Leo, you as a Leo
: must know how great this sign is and nobody with Pluto in Leo would
: erase posts which don´t suite because one feels hit, 1966 that´s Pluto
: in Virgo, well .... but you can also have a fulfilled life, even if it
: ´s erasing posts, a boomer takes notice and thinks if you like to do
: this than do it, so again you have a chance, we let you live.
Just saw "Kung Fu Panda"...
"There is no secret ingredient"
The dragon scroll is just blank, even reflective...
Po (The Panda), is so rubbery that all the attacks
by Tai Lung (the bad guy) just bounce back...
"That's why it's called present" (nodes)
With insight comes recognition of relativity, comes reluctance.
Switzerland's 1291 founding date has almost all planets in Leo.
Old lion, guarding the nodes (also Leo), and Pluto in Aquarius.
See you in an other life, folks... :)
But if the little fox,
after nearly completing the crossing,
gets his tail in the water
there is nothing that would further.
Because he does not strive,
nobody finds it possible to strive with him...
)o+
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From: alain <alain@wei.chi>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
Subject: Re: Horary: " Is 'X' the baby's father?"
Date: 11 Jun 2004 00:15:04 GMT
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Maybe the quintile of the moon to the northern node
reveals something. It connects the moon to Jupiter,
which is almost exactly trine the northern node.
I guess you are aware that the moment of the chart
was during the Venus transit through the solar disk,
almost in the middle of it, just a little after the
moment where Venus was most deeply "inside" the sun.
That relates to the motives of the querent (Leo/sun)
and maybe even sums up the question: A look back at
previous acts of love (retrograde Venus), with the
potential fathers (sun).
I have not checked, but I think to have heard on TV
that Cook's discovery of Australia was related to the
aim to observe a previous Venus-sun transit and took
place after the transit. So maybe further curiosity by
the querent in this matter (also since sun and Venus
are in Gemini), would also reveal something new. What
I don't see, however, is whether what might be found
would be nice or helpful. Are there any hints about
that in the chart ?
alain
Pete wrote:
: Hi :)
: yesterday a friend sent me a text message asking for a horary. She
: wanted to know if her ex-partner is the father of her baby. I'm wary of
: the Saturnine nature of the 7th house ( astrologer -me ), with Neptune
: on the cusp, and so with that in mind, I thought I'd seek the help of
: you fine people in unravelling the message of the chart.
:
: Here's the data for it:
:
: "Is X the baby's father?"
: June 8th 2004
: 09.53 am
: West Kirby, England.
: 53N22' 03W10
:
: Asc: Leo 16* 59'
: Moon: Aquarius 29* 33'
:
: The querent: Leo/Sun
: The child: Sagittarius/Jupiter. (Moon?)
: The partner: Aquarius/Saturn. Neptune.
:
: The first thing that struck me was the void-of-course Moon in the 7th,
: suggesting that this business shall not go "handsomely forward",
: according to Lilly. Is the Moon the natural significator of babies, and
: if so, does its position in the 7th constitute "emplacement"? Ergo: 'The
: baby belongs to the partner'?.
: But wait ~ should I be looking for some connection via reception between
: either the sig of the 5th or the Moon, and Saturn? If so it would have
: to be a strong one and yes ~ there it is: the Moon and Saturn are in
: Mutual Reception: that's almost as good as a blood-tie, imo, *if* we can
: take the Moon as the baby. Can we? There is no reception between Saturn,
: lord of 7th, and Jupiter, lord of 5th, which appears to suggest no
: connection, but they were in aspect by sextile last month. However, that
: isn't what I'm looking for; I'm looking for a common thread, such as the
: one between Saturn and the Moon. Everything hinges on allowing the Moon
: for the baby. ( By Regio' house system, the Moon has dignity by face at
: the 5th cusp ).
:
: Any thoughts on this one?
: Cheers...
:
: -%-
: Pete
: "In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God"
I think space probes have generally a scorpionic property:
They use the (gravitational) forces of planets to gain
momentum. They fly by planets closely and quickly to be
accelerated even more. Some probes even achieved to leave
the solar system that way.
The same principle can be used psychologically to escape
strong forces that bind you to some environment or some
habits. You first start to tease some smaller planets
and later on, once you already gained momentum, you start
to "insult" the older, larger planets/gods, to go get
yourself kicked out of the solar system.
I think Nozomi will do just well.
Space probes are also mercurial and hence related to free
will: Mercury is the smallest and fastest planet in the
solar system, hence closest to being a space probe.
Zeus' messenger can go anywhere if he is just quick enough.
Finally, I can also feel the quincunx here, where two
bodies by definition never reach each other, but can still
have close and interesting encounters.
delphi29@excite.com
(me: symbolically past neptune (ac), quaoar in 10)
--
DJ <doovinator@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Around New Year's this year, spacecraft Nozomi will
> arrive at mars. Launched July 4, 1998, it was supposed
> to swing around the earth and moon several times, then
> fire its main rockets, reaching mars by the end of
> 1999.
>
> Well, on Dec. 20, 1998, Nozomi fired its main rockets,
> but ended up so far off course that two corrective
> burns were made the next day, and there wasn't enough
> fuel left to correct its trajectory into a martian
> orbit. In Oct. 1999, it flew on past.
>
> For four more years Nozomi coasted through space,
> being hit by a solar flare on April 21, 2002 and
> damaging its power circuits. Now, crippled and with
> its fuel system half frozen, Nozomi is approaching
> mars.
>
> Nozomi, launched under a fixed, scorpio moon, is now
> finally back on track. Will it, as befits scorpio,
> persist with its struggle, persevere and send back
> data, or equally consistently with scorpio, freeze up
> and spend the rest of its life an ice cube orbiting
> mars? Stay tuned!
DJ wrote:
> We have a friend born right after the aquarian
> planetary lineup of 1962--Feb 7th, she has gemini
> rising, pisces moon and about everything else possible
> in aquarius. The Christmas before I and my wife met
> her, she had a fight with her boyfriend, he went out,
> got drunk, got in a wreck and was killed. For several
> years after, she'd hook up with one inappropriate
> boyfriend after another--strange birds, married men, a
> fellow who lived in his parents' basement at 40--and
> one night I had a heart-to-heart talk with her about
> it; she admitted she had a fear of abandonment which
> was sabotaging her romantic life. If the guy wasn't a
> likely prospect to start with, she couldn't be hurt
> leaving him--anyway, she did take up with an eligible
> fellow not long after, somewhat older, divorced, with
> a 7-year-old daughter. That was 7 years ago; they
> haven't married but they do have a stable relationship
> and 2 more kids. In her more frustrated moments she
> has occasionally remarked that it wouldn't be such a
> big deal to leave him, but that kid's another story--
> The daughter, now 14, has been calling her "mom" for 7
> years now. She's often been to our house or we to
> theirs; I showed her an electric typewriter last time
> she was here, which she thought was really neat.
> Last week, she was riding in a car her friend was
> driving, the car slid on a wet road, hit another car,
> overturned, hit a tree; the friend was killed
> immediately and little Lizzie was taken to the
> emergency room. She has been in intensive care all
> week. She has been getting worse, she's in a coma and
> now the doctors are saying she has flatlined and is
> unlikely to recover. Looks like in the next few days
> I'll be attending a funeral.
> I seem to be thinking of a great many aquarians I know
> whose lives have been marked by tragedy. Not just
> famous people like Lincoln, of course. An early
> girlfriend of mine married an aquarian fellow; she had
> a congenital heart condition which had killed her
> father, her brother and her sister; she passed away at
> 28. The younger of their two daughters has the same
> condition, and he's the one left to watch after her.
> Another aquarian friend of mine has been married three
> or four times now; he doesn't seem to have done well
> after he came home one day and found his first wife
> murdered.
> My family hasn't had a lot of tragedy, but my aquarian
> sister did have a friend who was murdered some years
> ago.
> I don't really know my point, or if I have one, but
> this has occurred to me lately, certainly in context
> of recent news.
> My best friend was an aquarian; he died at 48 in 2000.
> It feels a little odd not having a best friend--nobody
> really "replaces" a "best friend", I don't guess, you
> don't really "do" that after 30 or so--
> I'm so sorry about Lizzie. There's not much more to
> say.
Hi DJ, very sorry to hear what happened.
I had a car "accident" about two weeks ago (only a scratch
on the left front door on the other guy's car), but since
we filled out and mutually signed a report about the event,
I know the other guy was born in March 1962.
If it helps, I think both events have a strong collective
background related to people born in that time, especially
to Neptune in Aquarius now (on the line of some planets
at birth and also the lunar nodes). The automobile was
invented between the discovery of Neptune (happened when
it was in Aquarius) and the one of Pluto. Also, Poseidon
claimed in mythology to have invented the horse, which was
disputed, but it was accepted that Poseidon installed the
first horse races. All this horsepower in cars and other
technological devices makes human lives so much more
vulnerable and dependent on technology. The sword above
the head of Damocles was attached with a horse's hair.
What disturbs me most, though, is that Sedna is now quite
exactly at a square to the lunar nodes in Feb/Mar 1962.
What if the discoverers had had the wisdom not to choose
a name for the new object so quickly ? (They have a full
ten years time, &*%%&ç!, to propose a name). Maybe then
there would not have been such a strong implication that
any stress (squares) of the 1962 generation should be
released (nodes) focussed into the fate of a daughter...
Of course, if the fates decide, there is no escape in the
end, but I do believe that some choices are possible and
can impact what the fates will decide to some degree.
And I also think that there are accidents on a collective
level, things that were not intended to go a specific way
and can only partially be mended afterwards.
At a seminar about the current Uranus/Neptune reception at
the 2004 Astrology World Congress, Melanie Reinhart quite
openly complained about the young discoverers of Sedna etc.
Of course, as long as astrology is not scientifically
confirmed and generally recognized, there is no logical
link for a scientist between the choice of a name and some
later events, so not all the blame can be put there.
But pushing for open recognition of astrology would only
play into the hands of Neptune in Aquarius. Maybe a bit
like Marx, who tried to improve the quite disastrous
results of industrialization for workers and ended up
causing at least as much suffering. Liz Greene compared
dealing with Neptune transits once to Jiu-Jitsu, to
move smoothly and try to use the force of the other side.
Simply using realism, like Marx (Taurus), is maybe only
providing Neptune what he cannot create himself, reality.
Then again, Lao-Tsu arrived on an ox on a mountain pass,
where he wrote down the Tao Te Ching according to the
legend, so Taurus (ox) is also realated to wisdom, and
the name of the guy in car in my "accident" was actually
a variant of the German word for "ox".
I know this post is maybe a bit much coloured by Mercury
and Mars in Leo, but I left it that way, in the hope
that some elements in it are maybe helpful or soothing.
Best wishes,
delphi29@excite.com
Gotcha! It is not really a planet in outer space, but the name
of the first cat that my parents had when I was a kid.
Anybody else who thinks that all the new planets/objects that
have been discovered since Uranus are too collective, too
slow in transit, too aquarian in symbolism ?
How about some Leo, to compensate some of it, at everybody's
individual disposal ?
Machi is Greek, if I am not mistaken after a Greek ship.
Literally, the name means "destroyer", very similar to the
meaning of the word "Apollon".
So, what I am proposing, is that you can put Machi wherever
in you chart you would like Machi to be, and to move it around
whenever you please. Moreover, feel free to choose any symbols
for Machi that you like and feel also free to change them at
any time :)
That should allow to cut off some of the extremities of some
hard transits of collective planets, whether already found in
the sky or not, and with "cutting off extremities", I do not
refer to Sedna, and its a cat, not a ship!
I don't have a picture of the cat Machi at hand, so let me
just say that it was a pretty courageous red cat...
Anybody having any objections to a wildcard planet ?
(Hey, of course, feel also free to chose another name!)
delphi29@excite.com
The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
DJ wrote:
: well there's a bunch of planets retrograde but not mercury; the moon's
: in its home sign, almost new, and I've got a three day weekend! What
: else is going on?
Here's some "magic" of aat, even if its conclusion
might not be what might be desired:
This temporary revival of the "global village" is
releated to Mars' ingress into Gemini, just about
around my first post in the "after sex..." thread
on my birthday to aam (I just looked Mars up now).
A drive to exchange opinions and views, even with
people from completely different environments and
who one has never seen (although there is certainly
some kind of similarity in some respects).
It comes with the Lilith in Scorpio, quincunx to
that Mars in Gemini. So, the revival of aat, with
a quick an determined penetration (Lilith is quite
absolute, penetration of boundaries has to do with
Scorpio, also with Mars, but the two signs ruled
by Mars are at a quincunx), is in my view more of
a misunderstanding. The "let it be" attitude of
Uranus and the nodes in Pisces still prevails, so
that the desire to post to aat is real, but so much
more beautiful in imagination than the dull task
of reading, thinking, analyzing, posting, feeling
maybe just obligated out of courtesy to reply, etc.
Posting to aam is in that sense much easier, since
there is activity there anyway and not much hinges
on individual posters.
Since Lilith in Scorpio also cuts just as well as
she penetrates, I personally decide to "let it be"
again for the moment. Best wishes and good luck
to everybody and maybe again some other time ...
)o+
.... some ruminations about Saturn and Pluto and other
modern planets, in light of 9/11 and the recent trine.
9/11, Saturn/Gemini opposite Pluto/Sagittarius.
Saturn: concrete buildings (touch earth, made also of
"concrete", limitations of hardness of a building.
Gemini: twin towers, world *trade* center, merchant
comes from Mercury, ruler of Gemini.
Pluto: "grave" issues, grave-gravity, death, destruction,
making room for new things, wealth (literal meaning of
greek word Pluto), world *trade* center.
Sagittarius: fire, strongly religious attackers, come
from the sky, Zeus, ruler or Sagittarius, lives high up
in the sky, sends often an eagle as messenger, the two
airplanes.
This would suggest "Saturn in Gemini, the twin towers
have lost the fight of the opposition and crumbled
under the weight of the attacks by Pluto in Sagittarius
in form of two air planes in the sky".
There are some qualifications, some ambivalence, like
always with regard to oppositions and some more elements:
- *world* trade center, thus globalization, long journeys,
Sagittarius.
- High rise buildings became possible by combining steel
and concrete. Now, concrete, although already known in
some forms in antiquity, especially to romans, was only
really rediscovered around the time of the discovery of
the first new planet, Uranus, and put to widespread use
around the time Neptune was discovered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete
"In the Roman Empire, concrete made from quicklime, pozzolanic ash
/ pozzolana and an aggregate made from pumice was very similar to
modern Portland cement concrete. The discovery of concrete was lost
for 13 centuries until in 1756, the British engineer John Smeaton
pioneered the use of hydraulic lime in concrete, using pebbles and
powdered brick as aggregate. Portland cement was first used in
concrete in the early 1840s."
Steel is a modern form of Iron (mars). This all hints
at the modern era, with Uranus having the glyph of Mars
redirected to point up vertically into the sky, like a
skyscraper...
- With the discovery of every new planet, the properties
that the planet is supposed to be responsible for is
at a clash with the planet(s) that were previous seen
as responsible for it; death and thus also grave, fated
matters, "evil stuff" were as far as I understand seen
traditionally as Saturn or Mars, so Pluto's mythology
is clearly claiming territory that belonged to other
in the past.
- The moment of planets in the sky, with its cyclic and
predictable nature, relates to Saturn, greek Cronos, time,
but the discovery of its cause, gravitational attraction
between masses is a more modern concept.
I guess this still suggests that the essential interpretation
Saturn/Gemini = twin towers, Pluto/Sagittarius = planes, collapse
is the best *single* one.
One more argument confirms that maybe more than anything:
The empire state building was started to be built in March
1930, strongly related to the stock market crash in 1929
and, of course, to the discovery of Pluto in 1930.
Now, after the twin towers had collapsed, the empire state
building was immediately the highest building in NY again.
Who won ?
Luckily we have a trine now, although the forces that are
felt at the moment can be quite extreme, too, at least at
the moment crashes at the stock market (mortages <=> houses)
have been avoided by pumping very quickly lots of money
(Pluto, wealth) into it. There is no fight to the end, at
some point one side gives in.
As usual, lots of planets and signs that had influence then
and now, have been skipped here. Feel free to fill gaps...
)o+
I wrote:
: The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
: the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
: a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
With "bring back into mainstream" I did not mean that
only astrology would have to adapt to the current main
stream, but also that current perceptions could change
with regard to what is generally recognized to work.
Back to my original question:
I can tell quite well without looking at current planets
where, for example, the moon is. And how I do it, is not
rocket science, is very simple things, like, say when I
feel suddenly much less interested into going out and
much less curious in new things, that is a good sign that
the moon (in the example of guessing the moon) has moved
from Gemini into Cancer.
So, why is something quite simple that everybody can do
with a little experience in his/her head apparently so
difficult to do formally ?
In light of the above, maybe it would be sufficient to
formulate simple things that allow to determine current
planets in signs and hand them to people, so that each
of them could verify them by themselves. If most people
on the earth do that, all using essentially the same
astrological rules and are convinced by it, at that time
astrology would have become mainstream without a formal,
mathematical proof in the sense of contemporary science.
That kind of proof would be somewhere between todays
science and religion. Modern science requires a hypothesis
and objective verification of measurable facts. The kind
of proof for astrology that I just proposed has also a
hypothesis, only proof is not really objective, instead
it is subjective, but in lots of brains in parallel.
Religion is even more extreme, since the individuals just
chose to believe something in common, essentially without
considering and testing a concrete hypothesis in their
heads. At least essentially, that is.
So, a bit simplified:
- Science: Objective facts in outside world, hypothesis
- "Mainstream Astrology": Subjective simple facts observed
by majority of individuals
- Religion: Common view accepted out of faith
)o+
Disclaimer: This is only a suggestion. Anybody who tries
to put something like this into practice bears the full
responsibility for the consequences including for any
possible omissions in this text.
Ms.[NotSo]Maleficent wrote:
: "DJ" <doovinator@gmail.com> wrote in message
: news:1187442404.341114.18570@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
: > On Aug 14, 12:49 pm, "Ms.Maleficent" <ms.maleficent@hotmail.com>
: > wrote:
: >> "DJ" <doovinator@gmail.com> wrote in message
: >>
: >> news:1186891784.631886.32840@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
: >>
: [...]
: > ------
: > Another angle (and that's the perfect word for more than one reason)
: > is of the mathematics. Music has its own mathematical structure, which
: > follows the same path as astrology, yet nobody attempts to predict hit
: > songs by scientific reasoning or would deride the scientist who
: > inevitably would fail. Architecture is similar; there is a
: > mathematical structure, but its esthetics are the major concern. A
: > bridge or a building can be perfectly functional, and ugly as sin.
: > Astrology is architecture, not of bridges but of daily life, and can
: > be used in beautiful as well as ridiculous ways.
: > ~DJ
: >
:
: So true! And what is interesting to me is that the math of music must be
: understood to actually play (unless you just memorize and play by ear) it is
: purely a language of, and always speaks to, the emotions. I think, in the
: same way, astrology means nothing until the human element is added to it.
Quote from http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
=> discoveries.pdf (page 19):
Hermes
Hermes leaves the cave in which he was born twice on the day
of his birth. The first time, he leaves during daytime,
quickly finds a tortoise and fabricates a lyre out of its
shell. The second time, he leaves at dusk, travels far and
steals some cattle from the sun god Apollon by walking
backwards as to trick out any prosecutors. Back at the
cave, he kills two of the cattle and prepares 12 equally
sized offerings to the gods and then eats one of them.
After some time, Apollon manages to trace Hermes down
and takes him up to mount Olympus in order for Zeus
to judge the matter. Although Apollon is angry at first,
after hearing Hermes play the lyre, he happily trades
the cattle for the lyre and quickly learns to make more
beautiful music than Hermes ever did.
This describes the relation between sun and Mercury.
Mercury, as the closest planet to the sun, never travels
farther away from the sun than into the next or previous
star sign. In other words, Hermes went first forward into
the next sign to get the lyre, then back to kill two of the
cattle, in order to end the age of Taurus and to redivide
the zodiac into twelve equally sized parts. Apollon, who
is also related to Leo, is not as flexible as Hermes and
hence needed a bit longer to realize that the old age had
ended and the new one had beautiful things to offer, too.
Erwin Schrödinger once suggested that the conscious
mind is where new things are learned. Learning to play
a new instrument, like a lyre, requires at first a lot of
conscious work until it becomes automatic (i.e. uncon-
scious) again and one can again fully enjoy making music
and forgets about the previous efforts.
In the myth, Zeus, who is associated with Saggitar-
ius, complements the natural process of making some
things conscious and letting others sink back into uncon-
sciousness. After all, people had been music a
long time before there were instruments, using their own
voices, not knowing that the human voice itself is made
by oscillating strings too, namely by the vocal cords.
In other words, even though the greeks had discovered
how to describe music analytically in terms of individual
frequencies, after a while things turned out to be not so
new, but rather variations of something that had existed
all along, as it almost always is.
[...]
--
Eppur si muove!
)o+
In article <0okad3lpaa4d7jidvqq28rubhtarqk9gce@4ax.com>,
Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:49:32 CST, DJ <doovinator@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Aug 28, 7:29 pm, Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:10:37 CST, DJ <doovinator@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Aug 11, 11:30 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >> >> The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
> >> >> the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
> >> >> a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
> >> >------
> >> >I think the main problem is that modern science is on the whole
> >> >reductionistic. Modern scientists tend to focus on smaller and more
> >> >precise answers to very specific questions, questions which have one
> >> >answer and one only, while astrology is about the broadest possible
> >> >canvas on which to paint a picture. I don't feel there's really any
> >> >way to reconcile the two, but I see no need to, either; the popularity
> >> >of any one style of human thought wanes and flows as with the tides,
> >> >and astrology will have its day too.
> >> >~DJ
> >>
> >> Also, there are too many variables to be able to prove it in any
> >> sort of interpretative way, plus there is the subjectivity of the
> >> individual astrologers to consider.
> >>
> >> But I did find a way to prove that astrology works. The problem
> >> is that it is contingent on having an exact, true birth time.
> >> And even astrologers aren't sure whether the 'first independent
> >> breath' constitutes the birth time.
> >>
> >> My method has nothing to do with interpretation - only timing of
> >> major life events using True Solar Arc Progressed MC and its
> >> derived Asc.
> >------
> >Oh yes!!!
> >The most frustrating part about trying to "prove astrology" is exactly
> >this. If TIME OF BIRTH was considered an exact science, much about
> >astrology could ALSO be an exact science. Instead we take on
> >challenges based on what a "trained psychologist" says about
> >sagittarius, or equally nebulous factoids open to whatever
> >interpretation blows in the window......
> >~DJ
>
> Yes. Wow, I can't believe it took this post two weeks to reach
> the group!
That's nothing! I made a post when the sun was at the end of
Libra in 2005 and it showed up in July 2006... :)
In article <88bub3pkq01ls62rh7m5qv2im6e7u20g8a@4ax.com>,
Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:10:37 CST, DJ <doovinator@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Aug 11, 11:30 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >> The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
> >> the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
> >> a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
> >------
> >I think the main problem is that modern science is on the whole
> >reductionistic. Modern scientists tend to focus on smaller and more
> >precise answers to very specific questions, questions which have one
> >answer and one only, while astrology is about the broadest possible
> >canvas on which to paint a picture. I don't feel there's really any
> >way to reconcile the two, but I see no need to, either; the popularity
> >of any one style of human thought wanes and flows as with the tides,
> >and astrology will have its day too.
> >~DJ
>
> Also, there are too many variables to be able to prove it in any
> sort of interpretative way, plus there is the subjectivity of the
> individual astrologers to consider.
>
> But I did find a way to prove that astrology works. The problem
> is that it is contingent on having an exact, true birth time.
> And even astrologers aren't sure whether the 'first independent
> breath' constitutes the birth time.
>
> My method has nothing to do with interpretation - only timing of
> major life events using True Solar Arc Progressed MC and its
> derived Asc.
I will try that. My birth time should be precise. If birth
times in Switzerland, in the land of clocks, in the 1960s
when all people in hospitals were Swiss, are not usually
trustworthy, then maybe nowhere and at no time...
)o+
Jyeshta wrote:
: >Everything rests by changing. - Heraclitus
:
: Hmm, I don't think that would apply to me. I'm constantly
: experiencing changing situations and it's not very restful at
: all.
That is much more so in a place like Switzerland, with its
geography (mountains in middle of Europe), like a navel,
like Delphi in Greece. Reflected by Switzerland's many,
many planets in Leo and Pluto in Aquarius. Very stable,
if there is a storm in the world far away from the navel
around which the (zodiac) wheel rotates, there is just a
little wind in Switzerland. And lots of things just flow
relatively briefly through or over Switzerland, like,
say, recently Neptune in Aquarius (and opposite all the
Swiss planets in Leo), but afterwards, practically all
in Switzerland remains the same, just subtly refactored.
Someone once compared Switzerland to a bicycle that
someone is evolving into a motorcycle, while someone
is riding on it. That's Switzerland (or Leo), lots of
transformations in place that keep everything in rest,
just moving in itself. Is a luxury, but can also be
quite boring at times.
There is a book by Jean Richer (has sun, MC and AC
apparently exactly opposite my own ones) in which he
proposes that Greek culture mirrored a zodiac in their
country, with the navel in Delphi (plus other navels):
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/platoon.htm
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/images/platoo1.jpg
The french original edition of the book was apparently
first published around my birth, and he apparently has
sun, MC and AC pretty much in opposition to mine:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/9mx3s7vLTts2.htm
I like the book, though. In light of the above, the
section about the lion of Iulis (Kea), one of the Greek
islands, is maybe most related to Heraclitus.
http://www.greektravel.com/greekislands/kea/postcards/68.jpg
Lio
I wrote:
: The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
: the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
: a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
My personal opinion has several aspects.
Some parts of astrology work well enough that they can
be proven formally. Would take several years of work
to do so and then lots of time to fight for it, but it
is clearly feasible.
Such a proof would, of course, change the world quite
a bit. Therefore it is very well understandable that
almost everybody is trying to resist this, maybe not
in absolute terms, but please just not yet in my own
lifetime (or maybe not even the one of my children).
Astrologers, in particular, enjoy a lot to have found
a place on their own in which they can do their own
personal research into the mysteries of the world and
write about it, or not. Once scientist who typically
have much better formal skills would enter astrology,
they would avoid the old astrologers and very likely
also ridiculize them and their faulty "methods".
("Everything rests by changing"... ;)
That would not be fair, because astrology is not only
about the aspects it has that can be proven formally,
but is much deeper and broader, too.
I guess in the long run, science will enter astrology
and the kind of people who do astrology these days then
would simply focus on the parts of astrology and of the
world, in general, that cannot be proven formally and
might likely still be despised by jealous scientists
who are jealous of the freedom of astrologers.
Of course, there is and likely will be, an implicit
complicity between the typically male scientists and
the typically female astrologer (at least as far as
practicing astrology, maybe not as far as talking about
it, in public). The scientist does his thing an does
not mind, in fact at the bottom of his heart, likes
those strange things that his wife does (if she tells
him at all, otherwise, he would just unconsciously,
intuitively be aware of it).
Regarding which aspects of astrology will first be
formalized, I think that it might be something quite
unexpected, sort of a VHS/Betamax effect, that some
maybe even quite esoteric aspect of astrology might
for some quite pragmatic reasons (easy to prove, only
or mostly applies to external facts, people do not
mind it much, preserves and deflects from the deeper
secrets of astrology) be what allows to prove astrology.
On a more personal note, the things that I first made
public in usenet and elsewhere in 2002, namely the ideas
of http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip will
almost certainly be part of a common future world view,
the first main idea because it provides a unified
framework into which astrology, telepathy, divination,
premonition, and many more things, fit nicely, and
also explain why these phenomena are so efficient in
escaping formal tests. The second main idea is a simple
model of the zodiac that produces many key attributes
of the star signs from a simple model in terms of the
elements (Fire, Earth, etc.). That one is certainly true
and is what convinced me as a physicist that astrology
really works and is not just selective perception on
my side.
So much for the world. My "everything rests by changing"
experience was the simple and basic thing that I found
linking Kant's perceptions about space and time with the
four classical elements:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Looks like someone I exchanged a few e-mails with, will
soon publish an article in a peer reviewed journal that
links some mathematical aspects of change in the I Ching
with my ideas. That is "only" a philosophical journal,
not "real, hard physics", yet, but it seems to be a good
start and also a harmonic one. Things are yet in a state
in which they are "not even wrong", very simple and feel
right, but not directly amenable to experiment, yet.
I will try, though, as an occasional hobby, to see if
that quite natural approach can grow into something that
can be directly touched. Regarding the rest of astrology,
and this for purely personal reasons that I mentioned
before in usenet, I will not be able or willing to do
much astrology in the future. There will be some things
here and there, but that mostly in private, I guess,
and I will certainly not write a book about astrology
or otherwise publish anything significant any more.
Please take what is there at my site or dig up what I
published in usenet... Difficult for me to do this, to
be like Pisces, lay my eggs and simply swim away, but
I guess since I have Saturn in Pisces (and Cheiron,
and, last, but not least, Lilith, plus synastry), that
is in the end the way things will go in public. My
moon in Aries at the MC does not stand to be much
associated with unaccepted and often ridiculized stuff
like contemporary astrology and the like in public.
In that sense, what remains on my site (last change was
when north node, Uranus and Mars were in the middle of
Pisces), is only what is absolutely necessary, or maybe
only what is likely to remain stable, to rest, while
almost everything else keeps on moving around it.
)o+
I wrote:
: The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
: the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
: a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
My personal opinion has several aspects.
Some parts of astrology work well enough that they can
be proven formally. Would take several years of work
to do so and then lots of time to fight for it, but it
is clearly feasible.
Such a proof would, of course, change the world quite
a bit. Therefore it is very well understandable that
almost everybody is trying to resist this, maybe not
in absolute terms, but please just not yet in my own
lifetime (or maybe not even the one of my children).
Astrologers, in particular, enjoy a lot to have found
a place on their own in which they can do their own
personal research into the mysteries of the world and
write about it, or not. Once scientist who typically
have much better formal skills would enter astrology,
they would avoid the old astrologers and very likely
also ridiculize them and their faulty "methods".
("Everything rests by changing"... ;)
That would not be fair, because astrology is not only
about the aspects it has that can be proven formally,
but is much deeper and broader, too.
I guess in the long run, science will enter astrology
and the kind of people who do astrology these days then
would simply focus on the parts of astrology and of the
world, in general, that cannot be proven formally and
might likely still be despised by jealous scientists
who are jealous of the freedom of astrologers.
Of course, there is and likely will be, an implicit
complicity between the typically male scientists and
the typically female astrologer (at least as far as
practicing astrology, maybe not as far as talking about
it, in public). The scientist does his thing an does
not mind, in fact at the bottom of his heart, likes
those strange things that his wife does (if she tells
him at all, otherwise, he would just unconsciously,
intuitively be aware of it).
Regarding which aspects of astrology will first be
formalized, I think that it might be something quite
unexpected, sort of a VHS/Betamax effect, that some
maybe even quite esoteric aspect of astrology might
for some quite pragmatic reasons (easy to prove, only
or mostly applies to external facts, people do not
mind it much, preserves and deflects from the deeper
secrets of astrology) be what allows to prove astrology.
On a more personal note, the things that I first made
public in usenet and elsewhere in 2002, namely the ideas
of http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip will
almost certainly be part of a common future world view,
the first main idea because it provides a unified
framework into which astrology, telepathy, divination,
premonition, and many more things, fit nicely, and
also explain why these phenomena are so efficient in
escaping formal tests. The second main idea is a simple
model of the zodiac that produces many key attributes
of the star signs from a simple model in terms of the
elements (Fire, Earth, etc.). That one is certainly true
and is what convinced me as a physicist that astrology
really works and is not just selective perception on
my side.
So much for the world. My "everything rests by changing"
experience was the simple and basic thing that I found
linking Kant's perceptions about space and time with the
four classical elements:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Looks like someone I exchanged a few e-mails with, will
soon publish an article in a peer reviewed journal that
links some mathematical aspects of change in the I Ching
with my ideas. That is "only" a philosophical journal,
not "real, hard physics", yet, but it seems to be a good
start and also a harmonic one. Things are yet in a state
in which they are "not even wrong", very simple and feel
right, but not directly amenable to experiment, yet.
I will try, though, as an occasional hobby, to see if
that quite natural approach can grow into something that
can be directly touched. Regarding the rest of astrology,
and this for purely personal reasons that I mentioned
before in usenet, I will not be able or willing to do
much astrology in the future. There will be some things
here and there, but that mostly in private, I guess,
and I will certainly not write a book about astrology
or otherwise publish anything significant any more.
Please take what is there at my site or dig up what I
published in usenet... Difficult for me to do this, to
be like Pisces, lay my eggs and simply swim away, but
I guess since I have Saturn in Pisces (and Cheiron,
and, last, but not least, Lilith, plus synastry), that
is in the end the way things will go in public. My
moon in Aries at the MC does not stand to be much
associated with unaccepted and often ridiculized stuff
like contemporary astrology and the like in public.
In that sense, what remains on my site (last change was
when north node, Uranus and Mars were in the middle of
Pisces), is only what is absolutely necessary, or maybe
only what is likely to remain stable, to rest, while
almost everything else keeps on moving around it.
)o+
Ciro Discepolo wrote:
: Hello all,
: I would like to indicate you a web page where I have posted some my
: articles about Solar Returns. They are related to one of my book,
: recently translated in English, and some questions that readers are
: beginning to ask me:
:
: http://www.cirodiscepolo.it/solarreturns
Thanks a lot for the link. :)
And also for printing my e-mail in the "Lettere" section
of Ricerca '90 back in 2002 * ...
)o+
* www.programmiastral.com/Lettere53.pdf (page 120)
"come back to me"
Saturday 27 October 2007 at 15 minutes past noon
at the "Le Paris" movie theatre in Zurich: the
movie "atonement".
Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYTp8H7r1JE
Moon at about 21 Taurus, conjunct my natal n.node
and (her) natal Jupiter, and much more connections.
The water signs are about relations, about making and
breaking connections. Cancer, although trying to avoid
too much of it, essentially tries to make new connections,
hanging on to practically all of them, not wanting to
break them. Scorpio does both connect and cut, often
impulsively, thus maybe often more visibly.
Pisces, in turn, do not hang on to connections, so
only the ones that exist independently of any feedback
remain, the most obvious example being between mother
and son (close connection in belly before birth, unlike
father-daughter or father-son; no rivalry, unlike in
mother-daughter (assuming heterosexuality, of course)).
Uranus in Pisces has now pretty much reached a turning
point, will step back before the first half of Pisces
just one more time for about 3 weeks, then go direct
again, on the move towards out of Pisces again. Time
also, I hope, for all those movie stars to stop from
reflecting that cutting off of connections, of feelings,
by literally almost starving, and to put on some things
again...
Fantastic movie, even though the story, if retold, cannot
avoid to resemble Kitsch, but somehow, magically, the line
to that is never crossed on the big screen ... Feelings
recondensing from water's third state, air, back to something
concrete (earth, Cancer) that can actually be felt and maybe
really exist (again) - wow (the movie - and aat, again, did
not see things any much as clearly as that before posting - thx!)
Fate. "come back to me, P..."
Further analysis not desired, in fact rather a lack of it
is a prerequisite to catch some fish again, gently and ...
damn ...
Never ask a mermaid where she goes on a Saturday...
So, let it be in public, is a beautiful ending.
)o+
--
* See http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
(final version since April 2007, so no hurry)
* Search usenet (many replies to my posts remain, often quoting...)
* Think for yourself (or get someone else to do that...)
* Just in case: "come back to me, P..." above is meant without any
quotes, without any conditions whatsoever (I can understand that
this is also only possible if other bonds on the other side that
would have to be broken are not too dear to do so... that is
Fate and nothing I can do about it)
DJ wrote:
: Looks like a great movie; I've been watching a bunch of history and
: historical dramas lately, mercury retro I guess. Glad it's over now, I
: need some forward motion in my life!
Strangely, that kind of movie is usually not my thing.
The director, Joe Wright, made apparently only one other
"big" movie before that, "Pride and Prejudice", also
with Keira Knightley, a kind of movie that is usually
even less my thing.
The magic is very much in how things are told in these
Joe Wright movies, not so much what is told or what is
usually considered to be "what is told".
Struggling with an Apache module at work (Apache is the
open source web server that most of the world's web sites
run on), could use some more forward motion there, too.
How the web works is actually quite interesting, the
design of the protocols is actually quite beautiful,
only with Saturn in Virgo, it is a lot of hard work with
lots of details to do some relatively low level C coding
again, after some years of object oriented stuff. Since
the stuff has to run efficiently, the usual abstractions
cannot be done, so many details at every step...
But is much nicer environment than at previous job, also
they do stuff in Java, so I will not be stuck with doing
*only* plain old C forever...
Hmn... Magic of aat - the main character in "atonement"
is called Cecilia and nicknamed "C" in the movie... :)
Is that a reverse freudian slip ? I like C, but actually
I would very much like to do something in D sometime, a
more modern language than C, that incorporates many of
the newer features of Java or Ruby etc., but also allows
to write very efficient code (natively compiled, designed
mainly by a guy who builds compilers for a living):
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ (apparently offline just now)
Still sticking to my original "unquoted" statement, though.
Computer languages are one thing, but not all.
)o+
--
I wrote:
: Fate. "come back to me, P..."
Mercury direct again.
I googled around a bit after I saw the movie and
found out that her son played in one of the "making
of"'s of the movie "Oliver Twist" by Roman Polanski.
(His father is an actor, too.) Today I got the DVD
and watched that part. He is actually the presenter
of that piece, at least in the first part.
Well, does not look at all like that family there
in Prague is not going to simply move on and persist,
like, I would say, families normally should.
However, as far as I am concerned, I do not really
have much to do with them. OK, still with one of them,
in a more immediate and, yet, very remote way, but ...
I guess that's it.
I guess stories like that always end like this. Never
heard of the opposite happening in real life, and over
the years I have seen quite a few of them.
Not exclusively, but pragmatically.
)o+
I wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> : Fate. "come back to me, P..."
>
> Mercury direct again.
>
> I googled around a bit after I saw the movie and
> found out that her son played in one of the "making
> of"'s of the movie "Oliver Twist" by Roman Polanski.
> (His father is an actor, too.) Today I got the DVD
> and watched that part. He is actually the presenter
> of that piece, at least in the first part.
>
> Well, does not look at all like that family there
> in Prague is not going to simply move on and persist,
> like, I would say, families normally should.
>
> However, as far as I am concerned, I do not really
> have much to do with them. OK, still with one of them,
> in a more immediate and, yet, very remote way, but ...
>
> I guess that's it.
>
> I guess stories like that always end like this. Never
> heard of the opposite happening in real life, and over
> the years I have seen quite a few of them.
>
> Not exclusively, but pragmatically.
>
> )o+
At the end of the day I can still feel and love her.
And it is still directional, in the direction that
she lives in. No matter if this feeling is more sort
of an physiological effect, like "the connection is
made at the first big love and can then, because in
the body some physical, irreversible changes happen,
never be completely undone and new connections after
than one can never be that strong" - that aside,
I still love and feel her and my wish remains:
"come back to me P..."
It has often be a problem in instances between me and
her that I am a lot less flexible than her (I guess
the close quincunx between my Leo sun and hers in
Pisces. I take time to get used to new things I see,
not all that much, but a day or two for each new big
change in the picture is what I need. I would have
loved to kiss her that evening, but was too quick,
had no time to adjust to it. And on the other side,
it was maybe like in the movie, where Cecilia did
spend several years at the same school as Robbie and
avoided contact with him, did just not realize it.
This natural shield to increase attractiveness in
women, (guy: "that cannot be that she does not feel
anything, I am sure that she can feel me too, or is
that maybe just my imagination?"; in hypothesis H5
in discoveries.pdf in odyssey.zip on my site, I state
that the feeling is mutual. I am sure it is, even
though it may not be consciously registered on both
sides, and if it is it may not be preferred to admit
it to oneself or openly to others, etc. Asked the
Sabian Symbols oracle at www.sabian.org if she loves
me and it replied: Pisces 26 A new moon that divides
its influence KEYWORD: Finesse. I guess for a Pisces
woman, that is really so, not everything is just so
black and white, like often for a Leo sun, where the
summer sun throws clear light and shadows.
Love is just not rational and maybe not realistic,
but is also in its way the only real reality there is.
I love you Pavlina. Do whatever you like to do and can
do. If you want to contact me, now or later please do.
I will gently do some steps to get to know a few girls
that live around where I live, and then see if I find
someone who wants to be with me. Some more n. node in
Taurus (at about 20 degrees, conjunct tSedna and also
natal Pythia), and maybe at bit less Neptune in Scorpio
conjunct s.node, although that is only my side of it.
So, that would be:
my irrational wish: "come back to me"
my rational wish: "love you, best wishes whatever you do"
Hate to decide, I guess maybe literally or figuratively
in a former life I did too much of it (Neptune at the
s. node in Scorpio), so why not try this time around not
to decide unless avoidable and enjoy life.
If there has been a life before, figuratively or literally,
then most likely there will also be some opportunities in
at least some of the following ones...
Strange place there around 20 Taurus, stuck now maybe just
because of Sedna there, who has no fingers, P's Jupiter
there, so I hope the stage design job is not suffering all
too much from it; actress Keira Knightley's n. node there
and also (thanks for the private mails and I hope you permit)
Apollia's Cheiron, which has also a quite prominent place
in the Czechoslovakian birth chart, 0 Aries, conjunct my
Saturn at 29 Pisces - and last, and maybe importantly the
heliocentric (slow moving, hence maybe meta reincarnation)
planetary nodes of Mercury and Mars.
Well, at least such things create art, and other beatiful
things, to compensate, I guess, ... oh yeah, Freud had
Uranus at 20 Taurus...
That's it. Everything rest by changing. Or, if you step
into the same river twice, things will be different. Not
only black and white.
)o+
Hermes wrote:
> Hmn... Magic of aat - the main character in "atonement"
> is called Cecilia and nicknamed "C" in the movie... :)
>
> Is that a reverse freudian slip ? I like C, but actually
> I would very much like to do something in D sometime, a
> more modern language than C, that incorporates many of
> the newer features of Java or Ruby etc., but also allows
> to write very efficient code (natively compiled, designed
> mainly by a guy who builds compilers for a living):
The obvious: "C" is the sea, is Pisces, if you only hear
the words, C and sea are the same. The sea is collective,
individuals only see reflections (of themselves, but also
"enhanced", more beautiful) in it, white the deep thing
itself is darker and colder the deeper you look, so the
surface (exalted Venus in Pisces) is
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/pi/
(coming this xmas or new year...)
)o+ (AIain StaIder)
In article <hermes-888A16.08314806112007@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> > Hmn... Magic of aat - the main character in "atonement"
> > is called Cecilia and nicknamed "C" in the movie... :)
> >
> > Is that a reverse freudian slip ? I like C, but actually
> > I would very much like to do something in D sometime, a
> > more modern language than C, that incorporates many of
> > the newer features of Java or Ruby etc., but also allows
> > to write very efficient code (natively compiled, designed
> > mainly by a guy who builds compilers for a living):
>
> The obvious: "C" is the sea, is Pisces, if you only hear
> the words, C and sea are the same. The sea is collective,
> individuals only see reflections (of themselves, but also
> "enhanced", more beautiful) in it, white the deep thing
> itself is darker and colder the deeper you look, so the
> surface (exalted Venus in Pisces) is
>
> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/pi/
>
> (coming this xmas or new year...)
>
> )o+ (AIain StaIder)
Pick your favorite version/decision and then leave me alone.
By far most likely, judging from current constellations and
the past so far, there will be no more public statements on
my side ever again in my life.
As for my private life...
This post will autodestruct on google in a few minutes.
Reply to it, if you want to preserve it.
)o+
Feels like the decision has been made.
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/pi/
Yes, that will be the URL, with a link from the main site.
: Hmn... Magic of aat - the main character in "atonement"
: is called Cecilia and nicknamed "C" in the movie... :)
: The obvious: "C" is the sea, is Pisces, if you only hear
: the words, C and sea are the same. The sea is collective,
: individuals only see reflections (of themselves, but also
: "enhanced", more beautiful) in it, white the deep thing
: itself is darker and colder the deeper you look, so the
: surface (exalted Venus in Pisces) is
The title will be "pi and the sea", which reminds
phonetically of "pisces", and many more things.
: [...] Pisces 26 A new moon that divides
: its influence KEYWORD: Finesse. I guess for a Pisces
: woman, that is really so, not everything is just so
: black and white, like often for a Leo sun, where the
: summer sun throws clear light and shadows.
Using an ambivalent, balanced, refined, approach it is
well possible to tell the new ideas that emerged and also
in some way the personal story, without being concrete in
the sense of deciding who I felt when, who contributed to
what, whether astrology is art or science, and so on.
Perfect balance, unbearable lightness of being, refined,
with a few subtle highlights.
: At the end of the day I can still feel and love her.
Eppur si muove!
Strange, strange sign Pisces, with all those apparently
schizophrenic thoughts, actually it is in a way quite
coherent, maybe more than any direct approach.
Finally it will be possible to illustrate things, to add
color and image, to make things accessible.
Thanks to everybody who contributed.
)o+
: http://www.exactphilosophy.net/pi/
No release date fixed.
[second try, did not appear yesterday...]
* Subject: "come back to me"
* Date: 8 Nov 2007
* From: hermes@exactphilosophy.net
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
: [...] Pisces 26 A new moon that divides
: its influence KEYWORD: Finesse. I guess for a Pisces
: woman, that is really so, not everything is just so
: black and white, like often for a Leo sun, where the
: summer sun throws clear light and shadows.
A bit more detailed:
* 25-26 deg Pisces
*
* Watching The Very Thin Moon Crescent Appearing At Sunset,
* Different People Realize That The Time Has Come To Go Ahead
* With Their Different Projects
My Cheiron is at 25*36 in Pisces.
Hmn, magic of aat again: It is now quite precisely a bit
more than 25 and a half years since I fell in love with
Pavlina in spring 1982. Cheiron in Love (cf. Liz Greene).
I guess after all that time and no concrete feedback from
her, it is time to move on. At least it is not realistic
to blame anything on my side during the previous 10 years.
Since astrology and usenet and some aspects of my site
are linked to this complex, it is logically necessary to
let all of it just be...
Only exception might be what emerges from the main idea
on my site (5 elements composed of in/out, rest/move and
free will/fate) which I had independently, and, of course,
if other people pick up anything from usenet or my site,
that will do no harm, on the contrary!
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
: Hmn... Magic of aat - the main character in "atonement"
: is called Cecilia and nicknamed "C" in the movie... :)
: The obvious: "C" is the sea, is Pisces, if you only hear
: the words, C and sea are the same. The sea is collective,
: individuals only see reflections (of themselves, but also
: "enhanced", more beautiful) in it, white the deep thing
: itself is darker and colder the deeper you look, so the
: surface (exalted Venus in Pisces) is
* 1 - sun - Fire - conjunction
* 2 - moon - Air - opposition
* 3 - venus - Water - trine
* 4 - mars - Earth - square
* 5 - mercury - Ether - quintile
* 6 - jupiter - Transformation of Air - 6=1+2+3* - 36 Stratagems
* 7 - saturn - Transformation of Fire - 7=4+1+2* - 49 ???
* 8 - uranus - Transformation of Earth - 8=1+4+3* - 64 I Ching
* 9 - neptune - Transformation of Water - 9=4+3+2* - 81 Tao Te Ching
* 10 - pluto - Meta Transformation
* Aries-Leo-Sagittarius: wood-fire-smoke, earth->fire->air, 4+1+2=7
* Gemini-Libra-Aquarius: lightning-cloud-rain, fire->air->water, 1+2+3=6
* Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces: ice-water-vapor, earth->water->air, 4+3+2=9
* Taurus-Virgo-Capricorn: sun-tree-roots, fire->earth->water, 1+4+3=8
* in a nutshell...
So, C to D, from the third letter (fate, water, venus)
to the fourth (reality, earth, mars), I realistically
hope, "come to me", ...
Allow me to leave this last post online,
Alain )o+
[her moon in Aries is 2 days after new moon in Pisces;
still feel the same way as yesterday; let it be...]
DJ wrote:
> On 9 nov, 14:43, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > [second try, did not appear yesterday...]
> >
> > * Subject: "come back to me"
> > * Date: 8 Nov 2007
> > * From: hermes@exactphilosophy.net
> > * Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
> >
> > : [...] Pisces 26 A new moon that divides
> > : its influence KEYWORD: Finesse. I guess for a Pisces
> > : woman, that is really so, not everything is just so
> > : black and white, like often for a Leo sun, where the
> > : summer sun throws clear light and shadows.
> >
> > A bit more detailed:
> >
> > * 25-26 deg Pisces
> > *
> > * Watching The Very Thin Moon Crescent Appearing At Sunset,
> > * Different People Realize That The Time Has Come To Go Ahead
> > * With Their Different Projects
> >
> > My Cheiron is at 25*36 in Pisces.
> >
> > Hmn, magic of aat again: It is now quite precisely a bit
> > more than 25 and a half years since I fell in love with
> > Pavlina in spring 1982. Cheiron in Love (cf. Liz Greene).
> >
> > I guess after all that time and no concrete feedback from
> > her, it is time to move on. At least it is not realistic
> > to blame anything on my side during the previous 10 years.
> > Since astrology and usenet and some aspects of my site
> > are linked to this complex, it is logically necessary to
> > let all of it just be...
> ------
> 25 years is a long time.
> A woman I truly loved left me one day for a guitar player in a shiny
> suit. He offered her a "deal". She wrote to me for over 20 years. It
> wasn't logically necessary for me to let all of that be, it was
> emotionally necessary. I wrote her one last time, telling her how
> disgusted I was with how she'd treated me; that I would never, ever
> trust her, and told her to never, ever bother me again. I went on with
> my life. It hurt, but I'm OK.
> Respect yourself, or nobody else will.
Thanks a lot for the reply. :)
I remember bits from your story, too, from a few years ago
when we exchanged a few posts, also related to the quincunx
aspect* (my and her sun, several quincunxes in your case,
as far as I remember).
I certainly have to go on, but in my feeling not exactly
in the same way as you had to. At some point a decision
is necessary that is then no longer ever considered and
reversed. Last weekend, maybe a bit overemphasized by the
new moon in Scorpio, and Lilith there, I imagined what
would happen if I just cut the emotional connection that
I feel between me and her. I had previously chosen to
let go of the connection, but then it had always been in
effect just ignoring it, which lead to tensions that
would only resolve once I realized that the connection
still existed. So, really cutting the connection would be
different. The feeling I had last weekend was that if I cut,
then I would bleed to death and not much later, things on
her side would perish, too, it appears rather from a lack
of blood. Very strange to me, since so far I had assumed
that it was rather her who was hanging on, but that I in
principle would be able to cut the connection without too
much trouble if really needed to do so. But that seems
not to be the case.
In my feeling, she is in many respects like a traumatized
person, only able to consciously look at parts of reality.
Since she never tried to contact me again since more than
20 years, of course, it might just be that assuming a
connection from her side, is just a wish on my side, but
then again, why did, for example, her sister name her son
after me (same first name) and point that out to me? No,
in the end I trust my feelings and they say that there is
a connection. Since the connection cannot really fully
end, but, since she is married and has a 16 year old son
and they are apparently leading a (at least fairly)
harmonic life there, it is certainly not up to me to go
there and try to break it up, independently of whether
there would be a realistic chance to do so. I guess also
with the s. node in Scorpio, that is not my path.
So, after exclusion of all impossible options, the only
possible remaining option is to keep the connection to
the degree that it is necessary, but still try to do the
same on my side, namely add a new girl, and then see what
can be done if maybe then the connection can be released
more or completely, and if not, if it is hopefully OK for
the new one if some kind of connection persists. I mean,
in the end this is probably not even something rare, it
is maybe not too seldom so that partners in a relation
keep strong relations to their ex's or parents, or later
create to their kids, and so on.
Actually, as a side note, this is also, in my view, the
reason why proving astrology is so difficult. The main
problem is not before proving it, but afterwards. Since,
in my view, long-range emotional connections are the way
that astrology and telepathy and precognition work, at
least to first order, gaining conscious knowledge of it
and having to face it all consciously, is big turmoil.
The theory of relativity and quantum mechanics came with
World War I and II, so if every family becomes confronted
with having to acknowledge who exactly loves whom, that
is the most perfect recipe for disaster that I could
imagine. My story is certainly colored by the two nations
Switzerland and Czechoslovakia (or Czech Republic). The
Swiss side, most likely due to the many planets in Leo
and Pluto in Aquarius, is very reluctant about progress,
but also sees far and deep into fundamental connections;
c.f. Duerrenmatt's "The Physicists". Czechoslovakia, on
the other hand, has often been very early, in fact way
too early to announce and even push for things, with
often the result of it ending tragically. Examples are
Reformation (Jan Hus) or "Communism with a Human Face",
which is a good, although certainly still naive and too
rational (Libra) conception of society in the Age of
Aquarius. Again, too early. For all of these reasons,
also my usenet posts have to end, no solar arcs (sorry),
nor any more ruminations, nor will I be able to extract
some more things from it, except in the framework of
the main idea of my site.
Compared to any phenomenological proof of astrology with
its lack of resulting "Weltbild" and balance, my approach
would at least provide some mathematically exact model
that can be verified precisely, with much less danger of
bias than a purely phenomenological model and it would
also allow to provide a new paradigm or part of it. Of
course the chances of pulling this off are small, but in
effect the research that most astrologers are doing is
also often in that category; preparing for damping the
effects of when astrology becomes collectively conscious
and defining the new line to draw then between what is
officially perceived and what only a few people do.
I still love her. In my view and perception, it was not
her fault that things did not work out, even if she did
consciously chose to do so at some moments (which I do
not know). In my view, there were at least in the past
also other forces at work that we could not control,
especially not being the people we were then. And, in my
view, her older sister had a similar role than Briony in
the movie Atonement, although also she was fairly bound
in the fabric of Fate (like Briony in the movie). I still
love her and do not reproach her anything.
I guess no two quincunxes are the same and I certainly
do not want to imply anything about your story, DJ, not
at all. Best wishes and thanks again for replying. If
you had not replied, maybe I myself would never have
written this and that would just not have been right.
So, in conclusion, I will have to move on, and also I
will have to keep the connection to the degree that it
is vital and fair towards my next girlfriend, which I
judge realistic since I sort of lived out what can be
lived out from it during the previous 5 years... :)
"But who would claim that, by revealing the cause of
a sign, the sign ceases to be a sign?" Vera Linhartova
("Wer aber wollte behaupten, dass durch die Aufdeckung
der Ursache ein Zeichen aufhort, ein Zeichen zu sein.",
at the end of the short story "Das Zimmer" in the pocket
book "Geschichten ohne Zusammenhang", Suhrkamp, 1965).
That's me, "hellboy", in the end:
http://www.mailarchive.ca/lists/alt.astrology/2004-09/3349.html
)o+
--
* Thomas Ring about the quincunx aspect:
http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK22.htm?lang=g
Too bad, his works on astrology have never been translated
to English, but, of course, someone has to do the work.
I do not agree fully with Thomas Ring on his view of the
quincunx, but it is an important part of the picture, which
is already evident since by mistake that part of the seminar
in Copenhagen is not in the normal index of the topics at
that seminar at astro.com. (c.f. Linhartova, "But, ...")
DJ wrote:
: > I remember bits from your story, too, from a few years ago
: > when we exchanged a few posts, also related to the quincunx
: > aspect* (my and her sun, several quincunxes in your case,
: > as far as I remember).
: ------
: Yeah, there's a whole bag of them. Her chart has a bunch of stuff in
: scorpio and capricorn, mine in gemini and aries, also her sun/moon are
: conjunct my 7th cusp, all around 20-24°.
Maybe the solution with quincunxes in such cases,
where just being really together was not possible,
is simply to become oneself more like the "object
of desire", thus effectively eliminating the need
to get together. In your case, that might have
meant to develop the ability to be harder and more
realistic (Capricorn) and to cut (Scorpio). In my
case, maybe that meant to develop the ability to
forgive and to just let things be, no longer making
it something to decide in a black and white manner.
I am very happy with my decision and I get the
impression that you are, too. Best wishes.
In my view, the quincunx per-se is not all that evil
and tantalizing, but also often in everyday lives of
everyday couples what gives even the most common tasks
something special, just because the views are so
different and to resolve the misunderstandings one has
to talk to each other and is surprised over and over
again. Just my opinion, of course, like this:
: H23 Tendentially, women think rather unconsciously and collectively,
: men rather consciously and individually.
[...]
: An aspect that is often found in love couples is the quincunx (150*).
: Planets in quincunx are typically in star signs that share little,
: neither element nor sex nor character (cardinal/fixed/mutable).
: Qunicunxes often lead to misunderstandings. They are also associated
: with the fact that when sun and moon are in quincunx, one often
: mistakes this for an already full moon.
: Like H23, quincunxes ensure that no matter how long two people have
: been together, there will always be surprises that keep the relation-
: ship both interesting and challenging.
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip => discoveries.pdf (3.5)
Best wishes,
)o+
DJ wrote:
> On Nov 18, 2:04 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > DJ wrote:
> >
> > : > I remember bits from your story, too, from a few years ago
> > : > when we exchanged a few posts, also related to the quincunx
> > : > aspect* (my and her sun, several quincunxes in your case,
> > : > as far as I remember).
> > : ------
> > : Yeah, there's a whole bag of them. Her chart has a bunch of stuff in
> > : scorpio and capricorn, mine in gemini and aries, also her sun/moon are
> > : conjunct my 7th cusp, all around 20-24°.
> >
> > Maybe the solution with quincunxes in such cases,
> > where just being really together was not possible,
> > is simply to become oneself more like the "object
> > of desire", thus effectively eliminating the need
> > to get together. In your case, that might have
> > meant to develop the ability to be harder and more
> > realistic (Capricorn) and to cut (Scorpio).
> ------
> that's an interesting idea. She always did have a hard and practical
> edge, for all the flowery talk, and I had to cut with the same
> ferocity. It seemed to me unfortunate that there was absolutely no way
> in the end I could ever even attempt to be civil, much less friendly;
> I had to reject her like plutonium, or the plague. She had been so
> central in my emotions for so long that any further contact burned
> like battery acid. I won't send a card for Christmas, or call her on
> her birthday. It's not that I hate her, I don't, never will--but she
> deeply, completely, profoundly disappointed me, and I can't be her
> friend, or even try.
> There's a funny thing about a bunch of quincunxes, though. There's
> another woman, I've known her almost as long, she has 5 planets in
> capricorn quincunx my 4 in gemini and 1 in leo, more or less the same
> number in all as the first woman. I'd stay with her when I passed
> through town but it was never other than a friendship, except for one
> unexpectedly passionate kiss, ten or twelve years after we had met and
> long after our lives had diverged. We never had a romance and likely
> never will, but through the years she has become a deep and true
> friend.
> If I didn't know the second woman, I'd have a whole different notion
> what a relationship full of quincunxes could be. If there's any
> development to be learned about a quincunx, it's that it goes both
> ways.
> Happy holidays--
> ~DJ
Happy holidays, too :)
And also to any potental lurkers ... ;)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/helena-noguerra-cant-get-you-out-of-my-head.mp3
)o+
amateurs
I wrote:
: Anyway, I have a concrete question with regard to Stoicism and
: Aristotle that maybe someone here can answer or provide some
: hints. It is a fumdamental conception of the elements that has
: apparently emerged in Hellenistic times and by Stoic philosophers
: and which is still today part of astrology:
:
: ******************************************************
: * The notion that Fire and Air are light and active, *
: * while Water and Earth are [heavy and] passive. *
: ******************************************************
:
: (With that comes then also, I guess, the notion that Fire and Air
: are male, Water and Earth are female, plus maybe also day/night,
: bordering maybe even in those times to good/evil). And, of course,
: this all is very basic astrology, probably most people learning
: astrology when first reading about the star signs read this about
: the elements early on.
:
: Aristotle defines elements as follows:
:
: Fire: dry+hot
: Air: wet+hot
: Water: wet+cold
: Earth: dry+cold
:
: and explicitly excludes to assign heavy/light to any of them:
:
: * Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of perceptible body;
: * and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to 'tangible', and 'tangible' is that
: * of which the perception is touch; it is clear that not all the contrarieties
: * constitute 'forms' and 'originative sources' of body, but only those which
: * correspond to touch. For it is in accordance with a contrariety-a contrariety,
: * moreover, of tangible qualities-that the primary bodies are differentiated.
: * That is why neither whiteness (and blackness), nor sweetness (and bitterness),
: * nor (similarly) any quality belonging to the other perceptible contrarieties
: * either, constitutes an 'element'. And yet vision is prior to touch, so that
: * its object also is prior to the object of touch. The object of vision, however,
: * is a quality of tangible body not qua tangible, but qua something else-qua
: * something which may well be naturally prior to the object of touch.
: *
: * Accordingly, we must segregate the tangible differences and contrarieties, and
: * distinguish which amongst them are primary. Contrarieties correlative to touch
: * are the following: hot-cold, dry-moist, heavy-light, hard-soft, viscous-brittle,
: * rough-smooth, coarse-fine. Of these (i) heavy and light are neither active nor
: * susceptible. Things are not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon,
: * or suffer action from, other things. But the 'elements' must be reciprocally
: * active and susceptible, since they 'combine' and are transformed into one
: * another.
:
: Source: Aristotle, On Generation and Corruption, ca. 350 BC.
: http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/gener_corr.2.ii.html#73
:
: What I lack is a direct source (Stoic/Hellenistic or classical
: Greek or whatever) that would link light/heavy and active/passive
: to Fire+Air/Water+Earth. I found some secondary sources that do
: attribute this explictly to the Stoics, though:
:
: * The Stoics also made a distinction between principles [archai] and elements
: * [stoicheia]. The basic elements are earth, water, air, and fire. Earth and water
: * are heavy, passive elements, dominated by the passive principle. Air and fire,
: * on the other hand, are active and closely connected with sentience and intelligence.
: * The Stoics held that the soul is nourished from the exhalations from the passive
: * elements. Biological bodies are distinguished from non-biological bodies by the
: * presence of a specific kind of activity associated with the presence of the active
: * elements in the body.
:
: Source: The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Stoic Philosophy of Mind.
: http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicmind.htm#SH2a
: (at the bottom of the section about Zeno of Citium)
:
: * The Stoics think that of the four elements two are light, fire and air;
: * two ponderous, earth and water; that which is naturally light doth by its
: * own nature, not by any inclination, recede from its own centre; but that
: * which is heavy doth by its own nature tend to its centre; for the centre
: * is not a heavy thing in itself.
:
: Source: Plutarch, Concerning Nature, Chapter 12, Of Bodies.
: http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/plutarch/nature/book1.html#chapter12
:
: As I said, that's where I am stuck. Any ideas where to look ?
:
: Here are some more leads - I did not find something there,
: but maybe different pairs of eyes are more successful:
:
: Heraclitus: As far as I know the Stoics are often considered
: as influenced by Heraclitus and AFAIK also some of them openly
: said so; I guess Heraclitus also singled out Fire as "more equal"
: than the other elements, just like the Stoics (cf. quoted text
: on top of this post, of course).
:
: Plato: I looked in the Timaeus and searched the internet.
:
: John Opsopaus: The Ancient Greek Esoteric Doctrine of The Elements
: Link: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/AGEDE/
:
: Actually, I found an article that might be very interesting and
: on-topic, an article at JSTOR - but buying it is apparently not
: so straightforward:
:
: James Longrigg, Elementary Physics in the Lyceum and Stoa
: Isis, Vol. 66, No. 2 (Jun., 1975), pp. 211-229
: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-1753(197506)66%3A2%3C211%3AEPITLA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-L
:
: Excerpt that Google reveals from the middle of the text:
: * Water, therefore, is heavy relative to air and fire, but light
: * relative to earth; whereas air is light in relation to earth
: * and water, but heavy in relation ...
:
: As I said, any input is appreciated...
:
: Often when I get stuck, it is something simple and obvious,
: at least in retrospect... :)
It is really simple and obvious: It was Aristotle himself who
in an earlier work associates light/heavy and active/passive
with the four elements, namely in "De Caelo" (On the Heavens),
while in the later "De Generatione et Corruptione", which I
cited above, he no longer does, apparently also to avoid some
inconsistencies with his later introduction of a fifth element
(aether/quintessence), which is in heaven (if light elements
go up, why not have fire and air there?).
I got the article by James Longrigg yesterday. :) Wow! Very
clearly and precisely written to the point, and with precise
references.
So, looks like some tiny changes to my site will be necessary
this xmas-new year. ;)
)o+
DJ wrote:
: On Dec 9, 6:52 am, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: > I wrote:
: >
: > : Anyway, I have a concrete question with regard to Stoicism and
: > : Aristotle that maybe someone here can answer or provide some
: > : hints. It is a fundamental conception of the elements that has
: > : apparently emerged in Hellenistic times and by Stoic philosophers
: > : and which is still today part of astrology:
: > :
: > : ******************************************************
: > : * The notion that Fire and Air are light and active, *
: > : * while Water and Earth are [heavy and] passive. *
: > : ******************************************************
: ------
: Seems pretty straightforward to me. Put them all in a bottle and fire
: (heat) and air would end up on top, earth and water on the bottom.
: Fire is turbulent, in fact won't exist without turbulence and
: activity, and air is never still either, while water and earth don't
: move unless they're made to; the best measurements of climate changes
: over thousands of years are found in sediments and ice cores.
: ------
Yeah, as far as I can see, Aristotle is roughly saying that in
"Da Caelo". Does apparently only speak about light/heavy, but
does not use active/passive, but obviously in direct observation
heavier things resist motion more than light ones.
: > : (With that comes then also, I guess, the notion that Fire and Air
: > : are male, Water and Earth are female, plus maybe also day/night,
: > : bordering maybe even in those times to good/evil). And, of course,
: > : this all is very basic astrology, probably most people learning
: > : astrology when first reading about the star signs read this about
: > : the elements early on.
: > :
: > : Aristotle defines elements as follows:
: > :
: > : Fire: dry+hot
: > : Air: wet+hot
: > : Water: wet+cold
: > : Earth: dry+cold
: > :
: > : and explicitly excludes to assign heavy/light to any of them:
: > :
: > : * Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of perceptible body;
: > : * and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to 'tangible', and 'tangible' is that
: > : * of which the perception is touch; it is clear that not all the contrarieties
: > : * constitute 'forms' and 'originative sources' of body, but only those which
: > : * correspond to touch. For it is in accordance with a contrariety-a contrariety,
: > : * moreover, of tangible qualities-that the primary bodies are differentiated.
: > : * That is why neither whiteness (and blackness), nor sweetness (and bitterness),
: > : * nor (similarly) any quality belonging to the other perceptible contrarieties
: > : * either, constitutes an 'element'. And yet vision is prior to touch, so that
: > : * its object also is prior to the object of touch. The object of vision, however,
: > : * is a quality of tangible body not qua tangible, but qua something else-qua
: > : * something which may well be naturally prior to the object of touch.
: ------
: lost me at "qua"
: ------
I do also not really get what he means there. But I like
his approach of defining elements as composed of touchable
sensations. They are very basic (elementary) things, also
because at birth there is often the first contact with
things that are hard and have rough edges and with cold
things, and also with bright light.
: > : * Accordingly, we must segregate the tangible differences and contrarieties, and
: > : * distinguish which amongst them are primary. Contrarieties correlative to touch
: > : * are the following: hot-cold, dry-moist, heavy-light, hard-soft, viscous-brittle,
: > : * rough-smooth, coarse-fine. Of these (i) heavy and light are neither active nor
: > : * susceptible. Things are not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon,
: > : * or suffer action from, other things. But the 'elements' must be reciprocally
: > : * active and susceptible, since they 'combine' and are transformed into one
: > : * another.
: > :
: > : Source: Aristotle, On Generation and Corruption, ca. 350 BC.
: > : http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/gener_corr.2.ii.html#73
: > :
: > : What I lack is a direct source (Stoic/Hellenistic or classical
: > : Greek or whatever) that would link light/heavy and active/passive
: > : to Fire+Air/Water+Earth. I found some secondary sources that do
: > : attribute this explicitly to the Stoics, though:
: > :
: > : * The Stoics also made a distinction between principles [archai] and elements
: > : * [stoicheia]. The basic elements are earth, water, air, and fire. Earth and water
: > : * are heavy, passive elements, dominated by the passive principle. Air and fire,
: > : * on the other hand, are active and closely connected with sentience and intelligence.
: > : * The Stoics held that the soul is nourished from the exhalations from the passive
: > : * elements. Biological bodies are distinguished from non-biological bodies by the
: > : * presence of a specific kind of activity associated with the presence of the active
: > : * elements in the body.
: > :
: > : Source: The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Stoic Philosophy of Mind.
: > : http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicmind.htm#SH2a
: > : (at the bottom of the section about Zeno of Citium)
: > :
: > : * The Stoics think that of the four elements two are light, fire and air;
: > : * two ponderous, earth and water; that which is naturally light doth by its
: > : * own nature, not by any inclination, recede from its own centre; but that
: > : * which is heavy doth by its own nature tend to its centre; for the centre
: > : * is not a heavy thing in itself.
: > :
: > : Source: Plutarch, Concerning Nature, Chapter 12, Of Bodies.
: > : http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/plutarch/nature/book1.html#chapter12
: > :
: > : As I said, that's where I am stuck. Any ideas where to look ?
: ------
: My own tendency is to find the direct source by looking in the area
: between my two ears, which is where the greeks found it. I love to
: read this stuff, but the "direct source" is of no consequence in
: matters philosophical.
: ------
Yeah, it was more a cultural interest on my side in this case.
Astrology appeared apparently so out of thin air in hellenistic
times and since the Stoics were said to have associated light/
heavy and active/passive with hot/cold, but Aristotle not as far
as I knew then, I was interested to see how/why they came up with
it, what they were thinking then, because who would say that what
they saw between their ears is of less value than what I or you
would able to see today.
After reading Longrigg's article, I am maybe even more confused.
Does not say that "De Caelo" was written before "De Generatione
et Corruptione", not sure if that is known at all and how could
I be sure that both are actually by the same guy, Aristotle ?
Aristotle apparently only speaks about light/heavy in "De Caelo",
but not about active/passive, contrary to what Longrigg writes
in the article.
Modern science is very strange by exlusively looking at outer
phenomena, totally ignoring the area between the ears. The
reason seems to be at most a practical one: Outside you can
measure things more objectively. Measuring the height of a real
tree using a real ruler is something that most people would
agree that it gives the same result no matter who does it or if
it rains or the sun shines etc. But if I imagine a tree in my
head and also imagine a ruler, almost nobody would agree that
they would get the same result. But drawing such an absolute
conclusion from a practical problem is, of course, stupid.
I wondered whether in order to approach inner worlds formally,
it would rather require a more abstract, a Libra approach. There
is quite a bit of common ground in the inner world. There is love,
anger, sadness, beauty, balance, speed, comprehension, irony,
and a million more things. Why would it not be possible to do
some kind of science with that, in principle ?
: > : Here are some more leads - I did not find something there,
: > : but maybe different pairs of eyes are more successful:
: > :
: > : Heraclitus: As far as I know the Stoics are often considered
: > : as influenced by Heraclitus and AFAIK also some of them openly
: > : said so; I guess Heraclitus also singled out Fire as "more equal"
: > : than the other elements, just like the Stoics (cf. quoted text
: > : on top of this post, of course).
: > :
: > : Plato: I looked in the Timaeus and searched the internet.
: > :
: > : John Opsopaus: The Ancient Greek Esoteric Doctrine of The Elements
: > : Link:http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/AGEDE/
: > :
: > : Actually, I found an article that might be very interesting and
: > : on-topic, an article at JSTOR - but buying it is apparently not
: > : so straightforward:
: > :
: > : James Longrigg, Elementary Physics in the Lyceum and Stoa
: > : Isis, Vol. 66, No. 2 (Jun., 1975), pp. 211-229
: > :http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-1753(197506)66%3A2%3C211%3AEPIT...
: > :
: > : Excerpt that Google reveals from the middle of the text:
: > : * Water, therefore, is heavy relative to air and fire, but light
: > : * relative to earth; whereas air is light in relation to earth
: > : * and water, but heavy in relation ...
: ------
: to fire, obviously. Earth will always be on the bottom, water over
: that. Air covers all, and fire always rises. I don't think there's any
: more depth to it than that.
: ------
I am not sure.
: > : As I said, any input is appreciated...
: > :
: > : Often when I get stuck, it is something simple and obvious,
: > : at least in retrospect... :)
: >
: > It is really simple and obvious: It was Aristotle himself who
: > in an earlier work associates light/heavy and active/passive
: > with the four elements, namely in "De Caelo" (On the Heavens),
: > while in the later "De Generatione et Corruptione", which I
: > cited above, he no longer does, apparently also to avoid some
: > inconsistencies with his later introduction of a fifth element
: > (aether/quintessence), which is in heaven (if light elements
: > go up, why not have fire and air there?).
: ------
: since Aristotle had no direct experience of heaven (at the time he
: wrote about it) why expect consistency? I don't know anything about
: heaven either, don't care to for lots of years yet!
: ------
: > I got the article by James Longrigg yesterday. :) Wow! Very
: > clearly and precisely written to the point, and with precise
: > references.
: >
: > So, looks like some tiny changes to my site will be necessary
: > this xmas-new year. ;)
Nah, is only a detail. If even the people who study this stuff
in detail make such blunt mistakes, I can just as well leave it
as it is. It is just a cultural detail anyway.
With my Saturn and Cheiron in Pisces, I guess that I often forget
the most elegant and simple possible solution to a problem:
Do absolutely nothing, nada, nothing.
That Moon/MC/Eris/Chaos in Aries at a quincunx (the MC) resp.
a yod to all three collective planets (Uranus/Pluto, Neptune)
is quite versatile, has many sides, but they are all active.
: >
: > )o+
: ------
: cool. Have a happy and prosperous 2008!
You too! See you in an other life, I guess. :)
)o+
Unconscious Communication and Astrology
[originally posted 12 May 2007 to aam, see also replies then...]
This post is based on this simple assumption:
People that are close can feel each other directly,
even if they do not see, hear, smell, each other,
and (to some degree) even if they are miles apart.
That assumption, although (like astrology) at odds
with contemporary wisdom in the exact sciences, is
one that is often made implicitly in everyday life:
- If your lover is out of the house, does the felt
connection suddenly disappear ? Is all that remains
of your lover once she/he leaves the house just a
bleak memory ? Could you not tell if something did
happen to her/him once she/he left the house ? Would
there be no difference if suddenly a heavy accident
or even death occurred ?
- Or what about the same with mother and child, etc.?
Is there no real connection, is it just a naive wish
of being connected, just something we would like to
believe ? Just a naive superstition (like astrology)
in the eyes of modern science ?
- More astrologically formulated, feelings are about
the element Water, i.e. about Cancer, Scorpio and
Pisces. Do feelings remain in the "crab's shell" or
are they universally connected (Pisces) ? Probably
a bit of both, one would assume (Scorpio)...
But let me take a step back and simply assume that
people can feel each other directly (without a need
to communicate explicitly via speech, vision, etc.),
and see where that would lead...
This means simply that people's brains are connected,
just like individual brain cells in people's brains
are connected to each other. In other words, the brains
of all people form a large brain, an entity of its own,
with not unlikely its own intentions and feelings, etc.
But that is maybe a bit too simplistic: Any individual
is mostly closest to just a few people, family, lover,
close friends, then colleagues, casual acquaintances,
and so on. So, you would expect not to have just one
large "megabrain", but different "clusters" at different
length scales.
So there would often be a "family brain",
composed essentially of the members of the family. Also,
one could assume that certain interest groups, like, say,
even a usenet newsgroup, could develop its own identity,
with its own intentions, feelings, even fate.
That is, of course, a concept that is not so unfamiliar
to astrologers. Any entity like a family or a newsgroup
has some kind of creation/foundation moment that (via
the chart for that moment) gives that unity an individual
soul and an individual fate (via planets at birth, and
then transits, synastry, and so on).
I will come back to astrology in a moment, but let me
think the consequences of people feeling each other
directly a bit further...
Any such "larger brain" composed of many people's brains
would know more things than each individual that is part
of it. Some private thoughts of members of your family,
for example, would not be available directly to yourself,
but would be to the "family brain" as a whole. And, if
you would somehow touch a theme that stirs up a "family
secret", you would still feel something, maybe shy away
from it, maybe get angry, etc.
Now, the "family brain" might also have intentions that
you are not aware of, maybe even intentions that are more
complex than you can understand with your little single
person brain. (Imagine maybe ants. They can solve quite
complex tasks as a group, but the individual ants have
no chance at all to understand these group purposes.)
Such collective intentions can appear as *precognition*
to individuals. For example, two "family brains" might be
in contact and might arrange some meetings between some
members of the family. For example, a guy and a gal could
meet "by chance" somewhere in the middle of town, so that
the meeting would appear like "fate" to them, and via
emotional feedback from their environments, they would
maybe think that it "was meant to be".
And, in a way they would be right!
That is, if you count family (or other group's) intentions
as a miniaturized, limited form of fate.
Face it: You can sometimes do things that you do not feel
like doing for some time, but mostly you do what feels
good and try to avoid what feels bad. ;)
Thus, if feelings are not local, but directly influenced
by what others feel about what you do, what you end up
doing is quite heavily influenced by what others feel and
want. Of course, that can be somewhat schizophrenically
turned around, too: The family could want you to be sort
of an individualistic person who strives away from how
things are usually handled in the family, i.e. as it often
is with feelings, different and even opposite trends could
mix up and result in some quite ambivalent situations. For
example, the strict self-control of a Capricorn is often
fueled by fun derived on the inside (i.e. via feedback from
the family etc.), from not doing what one likes. (This is
what Freud called "Triebumkehr", reversal of instinctive
drives).
So, thus far the simple idea explains things that resemble
"telepathy", "precognition" and even "fate".
Let me add two more or so before returning to astrology.
Why stop at humanity ? People often also feel quite a bit
connected to their pets. Why not include also animals and
plants into the picture ? Living and loving (feeling) are
etymologically so close that there might be more to it
than just mere superstition (like astrology in the eyes of
contemporary science). And then, maybe all of nature is
alive to some degree as often assumed in the past, and
maybe even these connections reach out into space...
Now, with that picture, assume you take a few yarrow sticks
and toss them to do some "divination", to query the ancient
Chinese oracle "I Ching". The results are often in the eyes
of the querent more than just "chance" or a "random result",
but a meaningful description of the situation at hand.
What if the result is influenced directly by feelings, by
your feelings and by the feelings of people close to you,
and extending to humanity, living beings, nature at large ?
I cannot get much into quantum mechanics here, but what is
an integral component of quantum mechanics is that what
happens, what is measured (like when tossing yarrow sticks)
is fundamentally indeterminate (with qualifications that
would lead too far here), has some element of "chance" or
"randomness" in it that is not explainable by lack of
knowledge of an internal clockwork. But, if that element is
covered by individual and collective intentions and feelings,
it would become clear why the querying the I Ching or other
divinations techniques just "work", as follows.
The result of "divination" would then simply be the sum of
all influences, with individual and close groups having often
more influence (depending also somewhat on the question asked).
Now, the word "divination" hints also at religion. What if
the plethora of ancient Greek gods and myths was just a way
of expressing the existence of different interest groups
and concepts of collective psychology? That concept is not
too unfamiliar, think C.G. Jung and psychological astrology.
Taking it even further, what about a shell model of "God",
with small gods ("family", "bridge club", "work pals") and
then up to living nature in its entirety and self-created
(the invisible, unique god jewish/christian/muslim religion)?
But let me get back a bit more to the ground and try to
explain something that maybe many astrologers will not like
too much, because it detaches astrology somewhat from the
stars. However, logical evolution of the presented idea
leads quite naturally to it.
Remember planet Pluto ? Discovered in 1930, it was initially
thought to be as big as planet Earth, but today we know that
it is just a small lump of ice and dirt, smaller than even
that our moon, and just one of several similar lumps of ice
and dirt in a similar orbit beyond Neptune. (Pluto is now,
by a narrow margin, the second largest Kuiper Belt Object,
the largest being Eris). And last summer in Prague, as a
logical scientific consequence of the literal facts, Pluto
lost its status as a planet.
But that is only half of the story. People liked Pluto, many
school kids wrote letters to keep Pluto in the NY planetarium.
And, astrologically, Pluto has certainly strongly shaped the
20th century, with its wars and other important transformations,
and, of course, also strongly influenced individual lives.
But, in light of the idea of people feeling each other, what
if people just collectively *made* Pluto that strong, because
its properties summarized some common needs and desires, at
least for the time between about 1930 and now ?
But, in that case, why not consider astrology as a whole as
being mainly driven by collective wishes and intentions ?
Maybe humanity as a whole has chosen to accept the balanced
diversity of astrology, because it helps to survive in the
world and to evolve ?
Let me try to reformulate that in a bit more simple words:
What if astrology is mainly driven by collective wishes ?
What if astrological systems are just too useful for life
that they are kept intact by collective feedback, even if
they have somewhat detached from what actually happens in
the sky above ?
For example, there is no 12 constellations on the zodiac.
There is just a bunch of stars scattered around the ecliptic
that can be grouped into signs by cultural preference (for
example, Western and Chinese constellations differ). And
even if you would take the Western zodiac constellations
as given, they are *far* from forming 12 equally spaced
sectors on the ecliptic, and (due to precession) do not
coincide with actual constellation in any significant way.
Face it, astrology as it is used today, is largely a more
abstract, psychological concept that has already largely
detached from the actual stars. (That is not to say that
there are no more natural connections to the stars, only
that astrology as it is practiced today, has largely
detached from nature in the concrete sense). ;)
[...]I first published the above idea 2002, see discoveries.pdf
contained in www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip . That
document is denser and I am much more specific about the
details of how the connection is structured, in ways that
go beyond what has even been said before about the subject.
Liz Greene apparently saw the document in 2002 and called
it "too theoretical" (private communication), which is both
true and completely wrong in a way: It is *abstract*, but
very much based on experience and the deductive mind of an
experimental physicist (me).
Alain Stalder - )o+
PS: a few posts by me to aam got stuck somewhere in cyber-
space since mid May (nothing too special), they might show
up eventually, or maybe not... ;)
PPS: The Journal of Chinese Philosophy will publish an
article in its June 2008 edition in which my web site is
quoted. The article is about mathematical structures in
the Yi Jing, and my observation that inside things tend
to move if one is passive in contrast to outside, where
things tend to come to rest (at human length scales),
has influenced the article...
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
I. R. Heller wrote:
: Hello Alain Stalder:
: your article, reminds me of Karl Spiesberger´s book
: "praktische Telepathie", practical telepathy, (1946, pp 161, Herman
: Bauer Verlag, Freiburg i. Br.).
I was born in 1966 (Liz Greene in 1946).
So that probably fits me and my story... ;)
Thanks a lot for the reply :)
: Theme: "Thoughts, the mainpower of nature, how to send it - how to
: receive it and how to protect yourself from other peoples thoughts." -
: Karl Spiesberger mentioned then already the unconscious, but also
: the deliberate conscious mental communication between people, for
: all kinds of purposes. He had done tremendous research in this field.
: A fascinating book (sorry, before ISBN)
:
: Later on a man called José Silva, NM, USA created "The Silva MindControl
: Method" back in the early 1970ies. The book w. same title was
: published in 1977 by Simon and Schuster (ISBN 0-671-81604-7)
: Amazon still carries it, English and/or German.
: The method, creative visualization, is geared to control your own mind and
: to consequently be able to heal yourself and others at a distance
: (much like Edgar Casey).
:
: Thought these two books might interest you.
: ~~~
: My personal thoughts about Pluto: never mind how physically
: big or small anything is, the "influence" ought to be compared to
: the various materials we find on earth.
: Think of only one minute particle of plutonium, uranium, etc., standing
: to close to the material - unprotected - which can and will do more
: damage than tons and tons of most other material, proving also here
: that "it is not the quantity, but the quality that counts" ;)
: ~~~
: The question, if astrology exists: this is much like does chiropractic
: (or any other type of healing method) exist ??
: Of course they all do, but they do not all "work" on every body, as,
: even if the methods are good, not all practitioners are equally
: "good".
: ~~~
:
: and on and on . . we could discuss this to the end of days . .
:
: That´s all for right now. Always enjoy your articles.
: Take care and
: be well,
: I.R.Heller
:
: PS: this here given e-Mail of yours does NOT seem to work !!
[the one indicated at my site (top left corner) works ;)]
Fundamental Synthesis
Pluto is back in Sagittarius for a little more, so
maybe some time left with a good chance to discover
a few things in exact philosophy.
First a word about Pluto and Mean Black Moon Lilith
(latitude of the lunar apogee). I have said several
times that I feel and can see from some signs that
Pluto is fading. For example, just after Pluto had
been reclassified as not a planet, almost 2 years
ago, now, Natascha Kampusch could finally escape
her underground prison in Vienna. A clear sign that
Pluto had lost a bit of its absoluteness.
As people are getting more and more used to Pluto
no longer being a planet, Pluto is gradually losing
more power. At least that is what it appears to be
to me from observing what happens in the world and
with some people I know (including myself, I guess).
But what about Lilith then? The addition of Lilith
to astrology happened in France in the early 1930's.
In that sense, the american Pluto (only planet then
discovered in the new world) and the french Lilith
were opponents in that ongoing dispute between two
brothers (two modern revolutions with sun in Cancer).
One would thus expect Lilith to lose power, too,
roughly with the same ratio as Pluto. Lilith was at
about 24*45' Libra then, has moved through Scorpio
and is now at about 9*45' Sagittarius. It does look
and feel to me like there is some of the same fixed
desperation in Lilith as in Pluto. Maybe if they
are like "anti-particles", next time they will meet
at the same latitude, they will annihilate? That
would be 21 January 2009, i.e. one day after the
inauguration of the 43rd President of the USA.
But my favorite object in space, besides maybe also
a bit Orcus (because of the sideral beauty the stars
at it discovery, Subra the lion's paw and another
star that is the painter's easel), has always been
Quaoar
I associate Quaoar with physics. With Quaoar now at
about 17*28' Sagittarius, maybe times are not bad for
some exactphilosophy again.
My architectural choices:
- alt.astrology.tropcial because in the past here from
a scientific perspective, most ideas have emerged,
very often even without me being aware of them the
moment I started to write my post. Also this year
(maybe already happened), the progressed sun of 9/11
will meet the natal sun of this group. It should be
possible to grow some "phoenixy" things out of that.
- No direct replies by me in this group (or any other
groups) to what others may reply or otherwise state
in their posts. That way I hope to remain local and
on topic with regard to the issues that interest me.
I will read and consider replies here, though.
- I will not read anything that anybody posts to any
other usenet group or any other forum related to
astrology or the like. Feel free to e-mail me if you
feel that something that I should see has appeared
somewhere where I chose not to look. I can be reached
using the e-mail indicated on my web site (it should
not be too difficult to figure out the URL of my site).
- My web site will remain unchanged for the rest of my
life, except additions to the "evolutions" section with
publications by others that are somewhat related to the
ideas on my site, and except for keeping it broadly
accessible by current technology. Several times this
year I have put up an otherwise modified site, but it
never stuck and now that I am also no longer feeling
that girl in a distant city any more, except as just
a subliminal feeling (and feeling nice, no longer with
the painful separation undertones), mixed in with my
general feeling, which is quite good, except when I
get too much involved into usenet turf wars.
- I will keep posting here as a hobby, as long as this
will be possible and I feel like it. No other public
activities by me, except maybe should I find something
that is directly provable with regard to my favorite
idea about space/time and the elements, maybe then I
would consider publishing in a scientific journal.
(And maybe I will keep private copies of these posts.)
This is essentially designed to keep me off my Neptune
and southern lunar node in Scorpio attractor a bit. The
eternal turf wars of usenet are sort of a "strange
attractor" to me, much more so than in my real life.
I see it also as a sign of Pluto/Lilith declining that
the turf wars have somewhat lost their justification,
are no longer a superficial mask over something of a
fundamental importance, but often rather essentially
just the mask has remained. At least I am out.
It might also be a good moment to start something like
this with the asteroid of my real name at the end of
Pisces, conjunct but still a little bit behind my natal
Saturn, probably a good constellation for doing science
successfully. Also quite a czech moment (Cheiron etc.),
so probably good for seeing far ahead into the future.
So here I start...
(In another post maybe, if/when it might feel like it,
I guess with Uranus in Pisces it is often just more
beautiful to dream of something than actually doing it.)
But a few questions maybe:
Is synthesis essentially this: Take two or more things
and combine their ingredients to form another entity,
a new one thus distinct of the ones who created it?
Sounds very much like Cancer/Leo (sun/moon) to me, by
the way. The art would then be in what to take out
(that is more Cancer) and in which ways to recombine
them into an independent new identity (Leo).
Is synthesis just the opposite of analysis, this likely
on the axis Virgo/Pisces, with Pisces taking rather the
passive approach to analysis (just let things "sort out
themselves") and Virgo actively trying to analyze by
comparing things (Mercury aspect, like Gemini learning
from looking at things from different sides)?
Is not so simple, I guess. Taking something apart, is
usually much simpler as building something with it.
The complicated part in analysis is not decomposition,
but then the choice of categories ("bins") to sort
things in again. Synthesis is also difficult because
there are again many possibilities to create something.
Now the clou: If you decompose things to their elements,
these elements have so little properties left (dry+cold
or "rests outside" for Earth, for example), that choosing
categories is no longer a big issue, has become trivial.
One could say that maybe my Uranus/Pluto conjunction in
Virgo has lead me to this point and my lack of Pisces
with Saturn (and Cheiron and Lilith) in Pisces has made
it more difficult to synthesize.
But the question still remains, how do you do synthesis
at the beginning where the things you synthesize do not
really have many properties already. If you have, say,
Fire: hot, dry
Earth: cold, dry
Water: cold, wet
Air: hot, wet
you can only build things from these ingredients. Take
dry from Fire and cold from water and you get Earth,
you remain bound in the cycle of the elements. And if
you take hot from Fire and cold from Water, do you
then get nothing because the annihilate or do you get
maybe "lukewarm", something new? Or is the essential
thing you get at first just the transformation between
the elements, the Fifth Element?
How do you get a Zodiac from the elements? How do you
get opposites like synthesis/analysis and many more
from all of this?
OK, still got something interesting out of this, let me
leave it at that for the moment...
)o+
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http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Contains the most important ideas that I contributed to the public,
including clues where to find the rest of what I wrote...
All you have to do, is read it in detail and use your head.
If you do not have the necessary abilities, find someone (not me!)
to help you where you struggle.
There is beautiful stuff in it, and quite a few ideas will most
likely become general knowledge sometime in the future...
Alain Stalder
. ..'..... ..
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'"""^;`':. .. . ..,"=¨. .^7OkTj/.. .'^,...
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Contains the most important ideas that I contributed to the public,
including clues where to find the rest of what I wrote...
All you have to do, is read it in detail and use your head.
If you do not have the necessary abilities, find someone (not me!)
to help you where you struggle.
There is beautiful stuff in it, and quite a few ideas will most
likely become general knowledge sometime in the future...
Alain Stalder
I wrote:
: Pluto is back in Sagittarius for a little more, so
: maybe some time left with a good chance to discover
: a few things in exact philosophy.
:
: First a word about Pluto and Mean Black Moon Lilith
: (latitude of the lunar apogee). I have said several
: times that I feel and can see from some signs that
: Pluto is fading. For example, just after Pluto had
: been reclassified as not a planet, almost 2 years
: ago, now, Natascha Kampusch could finally escape
: her underground prison in Vienna. A clear sign that
: Pluto had lost a bit of its absoluteness.
:
: As people are getting more and more used to Pluto
: no longer being a planet, Pluto is gradually losing
: more power. At least that is what it appears to be
: to me from observing what happens in the world and
: with some people I know (including myself, I guess).
:
: But what about Lilith then? The addition of Lilith
: to astrology happened in France in the early 1930's.
: In that sense, the american Pluto (only planet then
: discovered in the new world) and the french Lilith
: were opponents in that ongoing dispute between two
: brothers (two modern revolutions with sun in Cancer).
:
: One would thus expect Lilith to lose power, too,
: roughly with the same ratio as Pluto. Lilith was at
: about 24*45' Libra then, has moved through Scorpio
: and is now at about 9*45' Sagittarius. It does look
: and feel to me like there is some of the same fixed
: desperation in Lilith as in Pluto. Maybe if they
: are like "anti-particles", next time they will meet
: at the same latitude, they will annihilate? That
: would be 21 January 2009, i.e. one day after the
: inauguration of the 43rd President of the USA.
[...]
: But the question still remains, how do you do synthesis
: at the beginning where the things you synthesize do not
: really have many properties already. If you have, say,
:
: Fire: hot, dry
: Earth: cold, dry
: Water: cold, wet
: Air: hot, wet
:
: you can only build things from these ingredients. Take
: dry from Fire and cold from water and you get Earth,
: you remain bound in the cycle of the elements. And if
: you take hot from Fire and cold from Water, do you
: then get nothing because the annihilate or do you get
: maybe "lukewarm", something new? Or is the essential
: thing you get at first just the transformation between
: the elements, the Fifth Element?
I wrote this last Sunday in the morning. In the afternoon,
I went to see the movie "Hancock"...
(spoilers ahead!)
Will Smith ("black"/male) is only one of the two persons
with superpowers in the movie, the other is Charlize Theron
("white"/female). Reminds quite a bit of Pluto/Lilith, right?
Yeah, especially considering that she is from Southafrica
(i.e. Apartheid, Dutch influence, c.f. many usenet posts by
poster Christine from the Netherlands about Lilith).
So what do you get, if you combine hot and cold as I asked
above? In light of this, you could say that what you get is
most likely an "Obama".
The character in the movie, John Hancock, is named after
the first person who signed the Declaration of Independence
and therefore apparently "John Hancock" became a slang term
for a signature... Sounds presidential, right?
As far as I remember after looking at the charts of the two
actors, one's Pluto was somewhat opposite the other's Lilith,
but I did not see anything closer nor anything involving
Ceres, for that matter, but did also not look very carefully.
The two superheroes are bound to each other, when they are
close together, their powers annihilate, they become mortal,
can be wounded and die, but if they are separate, they are
immortal, cannot be wounded. They say that in the past they
were called "gods" or "angels".
So much for that and now...
I wonder where asteroid Hilda is in all of this... (really!)
)o+
Thanks for taking the time...
In my chart several planets are around 17-20 deg
in different signs:
n.node in Taurus
Venus/Mars/Jupiter in Cancer
Pluto/Uranus in Virgo
n.node/Neptune in Scorpio
currently, some planets are there:
Sedna in Taurus
Uranus in Pisces
n.node/Chiron in Aquarius
In essence, the most important thing is, as
always, the nodes, so t.Sedna conjunct natal
n.node and t.Chiron conjunct t.n.node.
Furthermore, opportunities (sextiles) from
t.Sedna/n.n.node to t.Uranus and n.Venus,
n.Mars and n.Jupiter.
That does no speak for doing things into the
direction of publishing in usenet, especially
not to a scorpio newsgroup.
Publishing even in usenet does materialize
things, choses one thing and preserves it in
public, destroys the possibilities that existed
before. As long as I just imagine, I can have
all the different web sites I wish (and others
wish), can write books, do this and that, but
in reality, resources are much more limited.
So with Uranus in Pisces, and especially at a
sextile to Sedna at the n.node, there is not
much that should be done, rather one should
just lay back and "drink tea", imagine things
and wait for others to gradually step in and
even if not, maybe just dream of it.
Also Venus/Mars/Jupiter are always hurt by the
loss of privacy by posting, by giving away some
inner things, also a reason not to do too much
of it.
Took a while, I guess, and was quite tough to
get this accepted, but now I think people have
generally realized that I am not here to stay,
despite my deep experience from "previous lives"
in these matters and despite my abilities that
are quite singular in some respects regarding
reading the symbols and also feeling them like
a psychic, or as a psychic...
So thanks everybody for your comprehension (and
(I guess also analysis). Best wishes to everybody
no matter where life may take you. Sure, this here
is maybe not 100% fair and complete in all respects,
but then again nothing ever fully is, there are
always some minor corrections afterwards, but I am
also quite confident that I got the general
conclusion right. I know I move slowly in these
things, but also quite invariably/unstoppable in
the end. Sorry, not like I could really change it
in any absolute ways. And the matters touched and
published are extremely heavy, too heavy for any
single person anyway or even for a generation, only
time can carry them...
See you all in an other life :) :) :)
)o+
There is one more thing that I think I should mention, which I
only noticed yesterday evening...
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/hermes.htm
Talking about the tensions and dangers since about 10 July...
And how it relates to a text that I wrote when that asteroid
was approaching the same sign in autumn 2001...
And how it relates to my post of 7 July (still conclusive)...
No good times for closed mental systems in this age, I guess...
Best wishes to everybody...
)o+
I wrote:
: Thanks! :)
:
: To be fair I should probably mention that transiting Sedna is
: now on my natal true north lunar node, which might explain why
: I feel from personal experience (before and after discovery of
: Sedna) that discoveries of new objects "change the game".
:
: Sedna has no fingers, cannot influence the material world in
: any direct way, accordingly this is also a good moment to let
: all my public things be, which are almost all quite obviously
: way too early for "prime time"...*
:
: Sorry if I do not reply in detail to the points below; let me
: maybe just note that Switzerland had been known for centuries
: after its founding to provide the most feared mercenaries to
: various principalities all over Europe; more moderate approaches
: like armed neutrality, diplomacy, the red cross, came only
: several centuries later. Switzerland originally (August 1291)
: also has the n.node in Leo, like the USA (and Spain, Hegira).
:
: )o+
:
: --
: * Reply by sabian.org/oracle.htm (the one with the Mucha) to
: what would be if I simply left my web site as it is for good:
:
: Scorpio 16 A girl's face turning into a smile. Keyword: Acquiescence
:
: Reply to converse question (upload very moderated changes of
: this summer to my site, archiving current site?):
:
: Aquarius 14 A train entering a tunnel. Keyword: Courtesy
:
: Easy choice for me, or maybe in "matrix" language, helped me
: to understand the decision that I had already made...
:
: Rozmarne leto...
:
:
: In article <fftia4598j8cicqsk5htuflk1a0m8mfv3d@4ax.com>,
: "whatever@twixtntween.com" <Jyeshta@giganews.com> wrote:
:
: > Inclusion of entire post for posterity, although my response is
: > limited, below:
: >
: >
: > On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:22:33 CST, Hermes
: > <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: >
: > >[note crosspost]
: > >
: > >Petrus wrote:
: > >
: > >: > Something else: Interesting that you link fascism to the Age of
: > >: > Aquarius. So far I had assumed that I was the only one who had
: > >:
: > >: Fascism is a manifestation of the two planets (Uranus and Saturn) both
: > >: combining to produce a particular form of political government. In the case
: > >: of fascism, it is the Saturnine half of the two which is more immediately
: > >: visible, with Uranus manifesting as technology used to support it, and in
: > >: the case of Communism, Uranus is the more visible of the two, with Saturnine
: > >: totalitarianism underlying it.
: > >:
: > >: A political system which integrates these two in a positive sense would need
: > >: to be very different. I believe here that the writing/perspective of
: > >: Terrence McKenna is relevant, and this is also what such individuals as the
: > >: authors of the play "Hair" were referring to.
: > >:
: > >: It would be a society which both integrated technology, (Uranus) but which
: > >: was also very deeply based on indigenous/shamanic principles. (positive
: > >: Saturn) Use of entheogens (Uranus) would be not only completely mainstream,
: > >: but would also be one of the foundational pillars of the system. These
: > >: substances would be used not only for contact with extraterrestrials
: > >: (Uranus) but also for developmental experiences as well. There would be a
: > >: very specific set of guidelines and customs (Saturn) regarding their use, in
: > >: order to prevent abuse.
: > >:
: > >: Decentralisation would be another fundamental principle. Food would be
: > >: grown and produced literally on an individual basis, or by parents for their
: > >: children in the case of families. Individual self-responsibility (Saturn)
: > >: would be recognised and would be regarded very highly. Water would become
: > >: the fuel source in the same way that oil (Neptune) had been in Pisces, and
: > >: various outgrowths from hydrogen based technology would be used to
: > >: effectively repair the planet's environment and return it to a more original
: > >: state. (Saturn)
: > >:
: > >: I'm not talking about perfection here. Even at its' most positive
: > >: manifestation, Aquarius, like any other sign, is not perfect. Of all the
: > >: signs, it is also by far the most strongly rejected. I have often thought
: > >: that it would be better, far better, for the majority of my fellow man if we
: > >: were able to simply have another 2,000 years of Pisces, and bypass Aquarius
: > >: altogether. Most of humanity will not learn Aquarius' lessons willingly;
: > >: Uranus is instinctively, very greatly feared...and truthfully, rightly so.
: > >:
: > >: The single main reason why we need to adhere to the positive integration of
: > >: Saturn/Uranus in sociopolitical terms, however, is because if we don't, the
: > >: simple alternative is our extinction as a species. There's only two places
: > >: you can go from Saturn in particular. Past him, or to death; and you don't
: > >: go past him until he is entirely satisfied that you've earned it; that
: > >: usually means that you very nearly end up dying anyway.
: > >:
: > >: > 1) Download http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
: > >: > 2) Unzip odyssey.zip and then open the file discoveries.pdf
: > >: > 3) See section 3.14 The Age of Aquarius on page 16-18.
: > >:
: > >: I did so. Very interesting; particularly your perspective on the Aqu/Leo
: > >: relationship and how that manifested in Hitler's Aryan ideas.
: > >
: > >Thanks a lot for the reply. In my feeling and thinking, your descriptions
: > >give a quite accurate overall picture. I would like to throw in a few
: > >thoughts and methods that I developed over the years and use them to look
: > >a bit more into details at certain spots, but without trying or even
: > >claiming to be complete or accurate. Just as an opportunity to eventually
: > >apply these tools for a comprehensive view, like you presented above.
: > >
: > >In a way, these tools are my "musician's repertoire":
: > >
: > >* Uranus has just moved into Pisces after its 7-year sojourn in Aquarius,
: > >* and this suggests an emphasis on the creative imagination and on the
: > >* invisible dimensions of life. The last time Uranus went into Pisces,
: > >* the jazz era was born and some of the greatest literature in the world
: > >* was published in just seven short years.
: > >
: > >-- Liz Greene in 2003 [1]
: > >
: > >Also my public contributions, because they are mostly fragments in
: > >usenet and even more fragments because I almost always removed my
: > >own posts and only other people's replies and quotations remained,
: > >my public contributions are a bit kafkaesque. Kafka is certainly
: > >one of the writers that Liz Greene is alluding to, if not the best
: > >single example, maybe. Or maybe not.
: > >
: > >In that sense, this present text will be an exception, rather a
: > >Jazz Album than a Jazz Concert, a more constructed than improvised
: > >public contribution, but still written within a relatively short
: > >amount of time and not crosschecked in all details. Also, I added
: > >some quotes, something that I usually also do not do much.
: > >
: > >But let me start...
: > >
: > >Currently Chiron is at 18*16' Aquarius, conjunct the true northern
: > >lunar node at 18*35' Aquarius. Chiron is retrograde and moving at
: > >about the same speed as the nodes, so this is quite a long lasting
: > >phenomenon with a close conjunction between about May and October
: > >2008 [2], which by the way gives this maybe also a "venusy" touch.
: > >
: > >* These mysterious points are often associated with "fate" because they
: > >* represent the intersection points of the Sun’s and Moon’s orbits:
: > >* a combination of "destiny" (the Sun) and "embodiment" (the Moon).
: > >
: > >-- Liz Greene about the lunar nodes [1]
: > >
: > >* H32 The moon nodes are gates (a). They release energy of
: > >* the signs they are in (b) and of planets in aspect (c).
: > >* People instinctively tend to do more along the sign of
: > >* the southern node (d), while consciously trying to do
: > >* more along the sign of the northern node tends to make
: > >* more happy (e).
: > >*
: > >* H32bc are direct consequences of H32a. The moon moves
: > >* below the solar path at the southern node and above it
: > >* at the northern node, corresponding to entry into and
: > >* exit from the unconscious (H32de).
: > >
: > >-- me in [3]
: > >
: > >* The nodes are mysterious, almost anything can
: > >* be associated with them. They symbolize the flow
: > >* between any opposites, like on a Moebius tape,
: > >* in the number 8 or in infinity. Or yin/yang.
: > >*
: > >* Woman: Do you think if I reincarnate that I might
: > >* come back as a cow in my next life?
: > >* Man: No, one does not come back as something that
: > >* one has been before.
: > >*
: > >* There is a deep truth hidden in that joke: A cow
: > >* eats grass and "produces" dung. Dung is very
: > >* fertile, but one cannot directly grow a cow from
: > >* dung, only indirectly by growing grass that can
: > >* then again feed young cows. That is why what can
: > >* grow from the southern node (anus) cannot be like
: > >* its sign or house, but must be more like the sign
: > >* and house of the northern node.
: > >
: > >-- me in [4]
: > >
: > >So much about the nodes.
: > >
: > >What about Chiron?
: > >
: > >The orbit of Chiron is between the orbits of Saturn and the one of Uranus,
: > >roughly touching both of them. Thus usually Chiron is also considered to
: > >be a mediator of some sort between these two or also between individuals
: > >and the collective, because the new planets Uranus and up are considered
: > >often to be responsible for collective things, arguing also that this is
: > >related to them not being visible to the naked eye.
: > >
: > >From a slightly different perspective, one could also say that Chiron is
: > >a mediator between modernity and the past, between Age of Aquarius and
: > >Age of Pisces. Let me explore this path a bit more.
: > >
: > >Traditionally, Saturn ruled both Capricorn and Aquarius. Only after the
: > >discovery of Uranus in 1781, has Aquarius gotten a new ruler, Uranus,
: > >sometimes (or maybe more often) as co-ruler with Saturn. But implicitly
: > >more things changed: Traditionally, there is not really a full identity
: > >between ruling planet and sign and house. Sun and Leo and 5th house are
: > >traditionally not identical, whereas many modern astrologers more or
: > >less obviously identifying them as a trinity.
: > >
: > >It is interesting to view the new planets as children of the Age of
: > >Aquarius, as different facets of Aquarius and of his sometimes quite
: > >exaggerated drive to change/progress things, which has effectively
: > >resulted in more aquarian planets than ever before...
: > >
: > >But maybe back to Chiron as a first example:
: > >
: > >* No sooner had [Thetis] entered the cave and fallen asleep than Peleus seized
: > >* hold of her. The struggle was silent and fierce. Thetis turned successively
: > >* into fire, water, a lion, and a serpent; but Peleus had been warned what to
: > >* expect, and clung to her resolutely, even when she became an enormous slippery
: > >* cuttle-fish and squirted ink at him [...]. Though burned, drenched, mauled,
: > >* stung, and covered with sticky sepia ink, Peleus would not let her go and,
: > >* in the end, she yielded and they lay locked in a passionate embrace.
: > >
: > >-- Robert Graves in [5]
: > >
: > >Interesting, by the way, also that this paragraph comes just before the
: > >ones in which Eris tosses her golden apple...
: > >
: > >Peleus is, according to Robert Graves, sometimes also considered a centaur,
: > >half man, half horse. And it was Cheiron who counseled Peleus how to get
: > >together with Thetis (Cheiron seems to be prominent in many charts of love
: > >encounters, see e.g. a seminar by Liz Greene in 2006 or so).
: > >
: > >There is a horse in the sky, Pegasus, in the vicinity of Aquarius. Thus
: > >it becomes maybe also somewhat understandable why Neptune is also in
: > >some ways an aspect of Aquarius. It was Poseideon (Neptune) who first
: > >installed horse races in mythology. The fashion/vogue aspect of Aquarius,
: > >that comes together with his strive for progress, fits with that.
: > >
: > >Interlude about natural resources: Uranus is the steam engine, in which
: > >you burn (Element Fire) wood or coal (Earth) to generate motion. The
: > >central element is Water (Aquarius, Water Bearer) and it evaporates,
: > >becomes Air. In that sense, Aquarius is using, controlling the elements
: > >to achieve his goals. Wood and coal is destroyed. Wood could grow back
: > >from the ashes, but coal is old wood, so burning it is something that
: > >can only be done for a limited amount of time.
: > >
: > >Neptune is oil, for example. More energy and also base material for the
: > >chemical industry. There is certainly also a piscean side to Neptune,
: > >no doubt about that, but it should be noted that during most of the
: > >Age of Pisces, nobody cared much about that dark, stinking fluid that
: > >comes out of the ground in some places (with minor exceptions, like
: > >the use of natural asphalt). And nobody dug it up. Burning oil or gas,
: > >is also a one way street of limited supply, like with coal above.
: > >
: > >Pluto is nuclear reactions. Supply for nuclear fission (Uranium etc.)
: > >is also quite limited - like oil and gas it will not last for a whole
: > >2000 years of an Age of Aquarius. Nuclear fusion, when it gets possible
: > >will likely be possible for a longer time (and be much cleaner than
: > >fission), unless of course, demands increases too much again.
: > >
: > >Interesting that generation of electricity from all these sources
: > >usually involves the principle of the steam engine: Heat is generated
: > >and used to evaporate water which then operates a turbine and
: > >induces an electrical current - so very much Uranus stuff again.
: > >
: > >There is another long lasting reservoir, namely the heat stored in
: > >the core of the earth. I think it was at the beginning of last year
: > >or so that a company in Basel (Switzerland) started pumping water
: > >into the ground and trying to use the steam that comes up in order
: > >to generate power (experimentally). Now Basel is somewhat of an
: > >earth quake region and hosts lots of chemical industry, so Neptune
: > >territory. The evaporating water apparently induced a minor
: > >earthquake, no damage to anything, but still more than usual, so
: > >the company had to stop. But maybe in some more remote place, it
: > >would be a useful possibility to generate energy that way.
: > >
: > >But the whole thing seems more like Neptune in Aquarius to me than
: > >Chiron in Aquarius. Like in the piece of mythology above, Chiron does
: > >though control nature, keeps it within some boundaries, but he does
: > >not waste things without any limits.
: > >
: > >The new planets are to me a bit like a guy who has a table with four
: > >feet that of different lengths so that the table is rocking. Then
: > >he cuts off (or adds) a piece from one leg, or adds another leg. But
: > >he does too much or too little of it and so the table is not stable.
: > >Thus he tries again and again. Uranus was supposed to bring progress,
: > >but then Neptune was needed, to maybe balance consciousness and the
: > >(collective) unconscious. Then Neptune went maybe too far and Pluto
: > >brought maybe some more depth and doing only what is necessary and
: > >when that did not do, Cheiron was needed, etc.
: > >
: > >Pluto is the name of the Greek god of the underworld, who had many
: > >names, in Roman one of them was also Februs, the god that gave his
: > >name to the month February. Unlike Janus/January/Capricorn, who has
: > >two faces that look away from each other, Februs is quite a bit more
: > >limited in a way, forcing one single view. Sometimes that is good,
: > >but sometimes this just means to make things unconscious like in
: > >mythology where Uranus banned what he did not want to see to the
: > >underworld, only to have them come back during revolutions.
: > >
: > >The idea of a collective unconscious, of a clear line between what
: > >is conscious and what is not, is a child of the period after the
: > >discovery of Neptune and before the one Pluto, it is aquarian,
: > >I would say.
: > >
: > >Pluto was at its discovery first though to be as big as the Earth.
: > >But gradually its size was revealed to be smaller, and after many
: > >more objects of similar or even somewhat bigger size (Eris) were
: > >discovered, it became no longer tenable from a scientific view to
: > >consider Pluto a planet. That way (Chiron was already in Aquarius)
: > >Aquarius started to heal himself somewhat. Science with its by
: > >definition uniform and only true view of the world (very aquarian)
: > >dictated (controlled) the emotional forces of many scientists and
: > >many laymen and degraded Pluto to no longer being a planet.
: > >
: > >Like Thetis in the myth above, people have and are resisting the
: > >new realities that are enforced by Chiron. But to no avail, in
: > >my feeling and perception. In the end, they will yield and prefer
: > >it that way. Certainly their children base their views on the
: > >realities in the sky the know, not so much on the feelings of past
: > >generations.
: > >
: > >That is why Aquarius is not liked. He manages to obtain majorities
: > >with the goal to improve the situation for the average person, but
: > >the ones who note his actions most are usually the ones who are
: > >the victims of his changes, who are faced with a large instrumented
: > >organization that forces them to do things they do not like.
: > >
: > >It is only in the aftermath that one notes the good sides, like
: > >that many people in the world live like only kings lived about
: > >1000 years ago: Almost constant temperature inside apartments,
: > >no matter how hot or cold it is outside; turn a knob and you
: > >get enough heat to cook; turn another know and you get drinking
: > >water; and so on... Pleasant in the end, I guess, but I guess
: > >some people suffered on the way there...
: > >
: > >But, as in any piece of mythology, one cannot just focus onto just
: > >one opposite. The oppressive state and the revolutionary individual
: > >are both part of the theme (or of other themes, like e.g. Aries).
: > >
: > >* The Greek word *mythos* contains two nuances of meaning. In one sense,
: > >* *mythos* is a story. In another, more profound sense, it implies a
: > >* scheme or plan. It is this latter shading of the word which is most
: > >* relevant to both psychology and astrology, because the universality
: > >* of basic mythic motives reveals a groundplan or purposeful pattern of
: > >* development inherent in the human psyche as well as in the human body.
: > >
: > >-- Liz Greene in [6]
: > >
: > >Since opposites are part of the myth, it is not so easy to distinguish
: > >between opposite signs, either. In 2002, I proposed [7] to describe e.g.
: > >the inner mind of a Pisces as similar (at least in some respects) to
: > >the outer activities of a Virgo. Like this: Virgo tackles disorder in
: > >the outer world actively, starts to analyze and sort them. That way,
: > >a Virgo's head fills up quickly with a lot of details, so in effect the
: > >disorder in the real world diminishes, but at the same time there is
: > >more disorder in the head, in the inner world. Conversely, Pisces are
: > >much more reluctant to do something in the outside world, just letting
: > >things grow and be as they (the things) wish. That way maybe things
: > >get more disordered outside, but maybe only at first, but at least
: > >inside there is lots of clarity and an ability to react very quickly
: > >to suddenly appearing fundamental tasks, just because the essentials
: > >are always present, but nothing else.
: > >
: > >Of course, that is an oversimplified description, but the theme that
: > >inside and outside are reversed in many aspects for opposite signs is
: > >likely a sound proposition. And a useful one. Or maybe not? :)
: > >
: > >Let me shed some light onto a few more of my tools...
: > >
: > >Elementary Astrology: In 2002 I proposed a simpler model of the signs
: > >of the zodiac, an idea which I had incidentally when the sun was in
: > >Aquarius in 2001.
: > >
: > >* In this text here I will try to provide a somewhat simpler view
: > >* of the twelve star signs of the zodiac. Instead of using
: > >* different archetypal images for each star sign, I will only use
: > >* just a few archetypal images for the *elements*, i.e. archetypal
: > >* images for Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Then I will show how these
: > >* simple images already produce a lot of what we know about the
: > >* twelve signs of the zodiac and even allow to analyze why some
: > >* pieces of mythology fit so well with the twelve signs of the
: > >* zodiac. Moreover, these very basic archetypes for the elements
: > >* fit very well with how the philosopher Aristotle viewed the four
: > >* elements. But let me start going through the four elements one
: > >* after the other and explain things as I go along.
: > >
: > >-- Me in [8]
: > >
: > >An example says probably more: The fire signs are viewed in the model
: > >as a burning fire. First there is lots of wood (Earth), then the fire
: > >burns more strongly (Fire) and finally all goes up into smoke (Air).
: > >These phases are viewed in the model as Aries - Leo - Sagittarius.
: > >The element Earth is transformed by the element Fire to the element
: > >Air. In Aristotle's cycle of the elements, Earth (dry+cold) gets hot,
: > >becomes Fire (dry+hot) and then gets wet, becomes Air (wet+hot).
: > >
: > >Psychologically, there is a wound to the physical body (Earth) that
: > >is growing. That is the wound of the Grail's King (Leo) and the even
: > >deadly wound of Cheiron (Sagittarius, constellation of the archer is
: > >Cheiron or at least a centaur - side remark: that was not mentioned
: > >above when talking about Cheiron, unfortunately language is linear
: > >and not well suited to present a complex web of associations, and
: > >remember, this is just a exposition of some tools, of some ways of
: > >thinking about astrology and the world, not complete or even balanced
: > >system, not even an attempt into that direction - Lilith is in Sag.).
: > >
: > >Cheiron is immortal, which corresponds to the immortality of Air,
: > >of knowledge that can be written down and communicated to future
: > >generations, in contrast to the mortal body (Earth).
: > >
: > >* But the lion is a stage in a process, as Jung suggests; and it is
: > >* this process or pattern, which brings us into the sphere of the
: > >* fate of Leo. It would seem, from what I have seen in the life
: > >* histories of Leos with whom I have worked, that there is an
: > >* alchemical work to be performed. The lion is not permitted to
: > >* remain in its bestial form, but must give way to something other.
: > >
: > >-- Liz Greene in [9]
: > >
: > >The animal side (Earth) diminishes, while conscious awareness grows.
: > >There are many more examples how the simple model fits with many
: > >things that astrologers write about the signs, from very basic and
: > >maybe superficial things to the deeper psychological motivations.
: > >
: > >See also the introduction [8] from which I quoted above for a few
: > >more basic examples. And see [4] for some abstract approaches to
: > >Aries, Pisces-Aries and Air, based on the same model.
: > >
: > >Does maybe not fit in here fully, but besides looking at traditional
: > >meanings of houses and the corresponding signs, it seems to me that
: > >looking at the symbolism of the house *numbers* and the meaning of
: > >the words used for astrological houses gives an interesting, more
: > >fundamental view at houses, see also [4]. See also Heracles' tasks,
: > >like the one where he cleans a stable, task 5, by - but for that I
: > >need another model, just a second.
: > >
: > >That model is also part of [4], all emerged in posts to aat in 2004.
: > >
: > >1 - Fire - Sun - Conjunction
: > >2 - Air - Moon - Opposition
: > >3 - Water - Venus - Trine
: > >4 - Earth - Mars - Square
: > >5 - 5th Element - Mercury - Quintile
: > >6 - ... (see also cross-cultural links to the Chinese I Ching)
: > >
: > >In the 5th task, it is an idea (1-Fire) that allows to clean the
: > >stables in a very short time. Opening two gates at opposite sides
: > >of the stable (2-opposition-Air), then combining two rivers into
: > >one (2+1=3, Water), allows to wash out the dung (4-Earth) quickly
: > >and easily without getting one's hands dirty. Combined you get
: > >the 5th element, transformation of the elements.
: > >
: > >Now, this simple analytical view also reveals a similarity with
: > >the steam engine mentioned above, showing again, that telling
: > >apart opposing signs (here Aquarius-Leo) is not easy in practice,
: > >at least not for me... :)
: > >
: > >Back to the elementary model and applying it to Capricorn and to
: > >Aquarius:
: > >
: > >- Earth signs: Tree - needs sun/leaves/flowers/fruit (Fire) and
: > > its roots (Water) to live. For Taurus the sunny, but short lived
: > > beauty of flowers and leaves etc. is in the focus, while for
: > > Capricorn, the focus is on the roots, on the structures that
: > > keep the tree standing for many years. Virgo is in between, like
: > > each middle sign of its element always somewhat in a conflict,
: > > having difficulties to balance the elements, not sure whether
: > > to create beauty or order.
: > >
: > >- Air signs: Cloud - first lots of lightning in a thunder storm
: > > (Fire, Gemini), then starts to rain and in the end mostly just
: > > rain and no more lightning any more (Water, Aquarius).
: > >
: > >So interestingly, both Capricorn and Aquarius are at the end of
: > >a transition to Water, to feelings, harmony (Venus, trine, using
: > >the other model above).
: > >
: > >Bertold Brecht (Aquarius) wrote the following in [10]:
: > >
: > >* "Was tun Sie", wurde Herr K. gefragt, "wenn Sie einen Menschen lieben?"
: > >* "Ich mache einen Entwurf von ihm", sagte Herr K., "und sorge dass er
: > >* ihm aehlich wird." "Wer? Der Entwurf?" "Nein", sagte Herr K. "Der
: > >* Mensch."
: > >
: > >A but difficult to translate directly because it uses an ambiguity
: > >in the German language that cannot be translated:
: > >
: > >* "What do you do", Mr. K. was asked, "if you love a person?"
: > >* I make a blueprint of him", said Mr. K., "and make sure that he/it
: > >* gets more similar to him/it." "Who/what? the blueprint?" "No" said
: > >* Mr. K., "the person"
: > >
: > >Control, driven by a feeling of universal love. If I am not mistaken
: > >the "Golden Age" was said to be ruled by Saturn.
: > >
: > >Willian Lilly linked Aquarius to "in Houses, the roofs", while he
: > >linked Capricorn to "in houses low, dark places, neer the ground
: > >or threshold", so closer to Earth, more directly shamanic, I guess.
: > >
: > >Aquarius is a fixed sign. The 20th century was not really like that.
: > >It could really be that the plutonian side of Aquarius showed more
: > >during that period and that things are already easing into a more
: > >steady flow now. Difficult to say for me whether the more shamanic
: > >traits of signs ruled by Saturn will show their influence already
: > >soon or maybe will have to wait another 2000 years to really unfold.
: > >I guess in 2000 years technology will have progressed so far that
: > >individual local communities will be able to operate self-contained
: > >again, a factory to produce goods might be quite small by then
: > >(I am thinking maybe assembling things atom by atom or so). But
: > >predicting technology in 2000 years is extremely difficult.
: > >
: > >Anyway, in one way I presume the Age of Aquarius will likely be a
: > >bit boring too, like life in the USA,
: >
: > There is quite a bit in this entire thread with which I disagree
: > but... life in the USA is boring? As opposed, perhaps, to life
: > in Switzerland? Do people riot often in Switzerland? When was
: > the last time Switzerland had "leaders" insane enough to start
: > unnecessary and destabilizing wars?
: >
: > The USA has always been a country divided, even moreso after
: > President Lincoln's achievement in "uniting" the states. Since
: > then, the country is not only divided, it is diced.
: >
: > For one example: A date of incorporation for the City of Chicago.
: > Chicago is known world-wide as the city of gangsters (and those
: > who live in it know that nothing has changed very much).
: >
: > The date I'm using is May 12, 1875
: > Noon, UT
: > 87w39
: > 41n51
: >
: > We see Saturn right on the MC in Aquarius, in a t-square with
: > Moon in Leo in the 4th, and both square Sun, Pluto, Mercury in
: > the 12th. That looks right to me. For decades in the 20th
: > Century, city government was called "The Machine" (Saturn
: > Aquarius), fighting or making deals with gangsters (12th house
: > Sun Pluto Merc in Taurus) at odds with both the government and
: > the people (Moon 4th house). The Sun Pluto Merc Taurus in 12th
: > also accurately describes the city's huge cow slaughtering
: > business (no one wants to actually *see* the cow being
: > slaughtered when they're sitting down to eat a steak - 12th house
: > industry, comparable to the ever-present crime syndicates, both
: > within, and outside of, government).
: >
: > At the time of the 1968 Democratic Convention Riots, when out and
: > out murder and mayhem graced the fine city, p Moon was nearly
: > exact quincunx p Mercury - natal ruler of chart Ascendant. It
: > was a disastrous combination of the people (Moon) against the
: > city (Asc). p MC squared n MC. Except for those two aspects,
: > the rest of the data suggests the incorporation date is about a
: > year away from accuracy (and indeed there is an even earlier
: > year, I think 1837, but I could find no date for that year).
: >
: > We could look at so many other riot charts - the recent L.A.
: > riots of the '90s, the infamous Crown Heights (Brooklyn, NY)
: > riots of the '90s, and so forth.
: >
: > I would not agree that life in the USA is boring. It's
: > *dangerous*. Oh, and people barbeque here all the time, go
: > camping, hike in forests and deserts, see national wonders of
: > nature if they don't mind tourists from Switzerland (and other
: > places).
: >
: > Oh yeah, we also start crazy wars a lot, and kill each other
: > frequently.
: >
: > G.
: >
: > > which I view in many respects
: > >as an egg that hatches the Age of Aquarius - Cancer shell to protect
: > >it (sun), with a subliminal drive to spread its seed across the world
: > >(moon in Aquarius). Again, these are just fragments, no claims of
: > >balance or completeness or whatever - but good tools, I hope :)
: > >
: > >The Hegira had the n. node in early Leo, which spread to Spain in a
: > >time when there was islamic influence to it. Also Great Britain has
: > >this axis emphasized, just look at a british passport with a lion
: > >and a unicorn (Leo-Aquarius). These countries sailed further west,
: > >and so the same axis is also strong in Britain's former colonies,
: > >with differing emphasis each, I presume.
: > >
: > >I remember a report from Sydney, Australia, where two immigrants said
: > >that people were more often outside there, for barbecues etc., closer
: > >to nature than most people in Europe or the USA.
: > >
: > >Allow me to get back to a few of my things (Switzerland, my home country
: > >also has the n. node in Leo, if you take the old 1291 founding date).
: > >
: > >It was a love story that lead me to astrology and into the public.
: > >In that sense, one of the reasons that my public contributions have
: > >remained fragmentary are also related to this. Circling the castle.
: > >
: > >I am depositing these "side effects" here and now, with this post,
: > >besides what already survived in fragments, as sort of a lead in for
: > >more or less contemporary astrologers or for whoever might be
: > >interested in them...
: > >
: > >Maybe I should also point out this usenet post [11] in which I propose
: > >to use usenet post (or to other places) as data for proving astrology:
: > >
: > >* Fortunately, groups.google.com has collected a
: > >* large part of all usenet posts, as a harvest
: > >* that is now ready to be analyzed and sorted,
: > >* in my opinion, best using astrology:
: > >*
: > >* Detach from the idea of real people and redefine
: > >* people as screen names. Then you get a "birth",
: > >* namely the first post under that screen name, and
: > >* you get events in that "life", that you can then
: > >* analyze in terms of transits to the birth time,
: > >* of the current time, of birth time and transits
: > >* of the group the posts take place, etc.
: > >*
: > >* (Note that this is maybe not as different as in
: > >* real life: A birth chart gives away a lot of
: > >* information about a real person, but looking at
: > >* charts of parents, ancestors, home town, etc. and
: > >* looking at names etc. almost always broadens the
: > >* frame in interesting ways).
: > >*
: > >* So you get to the second data for billions of
: > >* events that happened to millions of people "in the
: > >* matrix", and most of it is not even real content -
: > >* which would be very difficult to analyze - but
: > >* instead is often fights without much real content,
: > >* or misunderstanding because people do not see
: > >* each other in use
: > >
: > >Definitely not a piece of cake to do in reality, but the technology
: > >would already be there in many respects (people working at Google,
: > >etc.). In my feeling and thinking, you can't convince unless you
: > >have an overwhelming amount of data and more than expected fits.
: > >
: > >Anyway, another tool that might be put to use sometime.
: > >
: > >Of course, the notion of a tool and posting as Hermes hints at Pluto
: > >in Virgo in my chart, and building up on things proposed by people
: > >with Pluto in Leo. But Virgo is quite an obstinate sign in a way,
: > >like - in similar ways - all mutable signs. They have to be more
: > >obstinate than the fixed signs in order to let what the fixed signs
: > >pursued and focussed on run out gently and prepare the ground for
: > >new things to emerge.
: > >
: > >On the other hand, I notice a decline in my abilities to do really
: > >fundamental analysis since it became clear that Pluto is no longer
: > >a planet. I still have Uranus conjunct Pluto (* 7 Aug 1966 at 04:12
: > >in the morning in Zurich, Switzerland), but it is clearly weaker in
: > >effect in my feeling than it was before. Also a reason to leave
: > >things as is, I guess.
: > >
: > >A similar weakening has also become apparent globally by the escape
: > >of Natascha Kampusch just after Pluto had been demoted and I
: > >guess it will continue to some degree. As recent reclassifications
: > >have shown, being first in science is also valued similarly as in
: > >astrology (where the first thing, the first moment defines the rest),
: > >namely Pluto has now given his name to a large group of objects, so
: > >some of Pluto's power will be preserved, but in my feeling the
: > >absoluteness is gone - depth has remained to quite some degree, but
: > >you cannot take away "a little absoluteness" and still remain
: > >absolute, that is by definition of "absolute" not possible.
: > >
: > >* Natascha Kampusch (born 17 February 1988 in Vienna) is an Austrian who
: > >* was abducted at the age of 10 on 2 March 1998, and remained in custody
: > >* of her kidnapper, Wolfgang Priklopil, for more than eight years, until
: > >* she escaped on 23 August 2006.
: > >
: > >-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch
: > >
: > >In the spring of 2004 I had a different kind of idea. I posted it
: > >to alt.astrology.tropical (post already removed, nobody replied).
: > >In it I present an idea that links the existence of 4+1 elements
: > >to the immediate experience of space and time. A quite timeless
: > >thing, not bound to technology, ages, astrology etc. and also in
: > >harmony with contemporary science and also with e.g. the I Ching.
: > >
: > >That alone is (in my personal opinion) worth more than all the rest
: > >that I wrote about here. As a physicist, I am interested in nature,
: > >not so much in immediate culture.
: > >
: > >That's it, once and for all. See this post [12] for a link to my web
: > >site and my opinion about whether to provide any future support.
: > >
: > >Note that (without consciously planning to) that post turned out to
: > >be exactly 42 lines long (without the headers)... ;)
: > >
: > >)o+
: > >
: > >PS: Wrote this in one flow 16 August 2008, just done now, and the moon
: > >is currently at 19*42' Aquarius, time for a quick review and then out
: > >with it (nearer Neptune, I guess), once and for all, I guess. :)
: > >
: > >[1] Liz Greene. Happy Birthday, Astrodienst - A look at the company's
: > > birth chart. 2003. http://www.astro.com/people/chart_e.htm
: > >[2] Ephemeris for 2008 at Astrodienst.
: > > http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/2000/ae_2008.pdf
: > >[3] Me. Moon Nodes as Gates. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
: > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050221190937/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s228.html
: > >[4] Me. "Book of Changes". Series of usenet posts. 2004. Archived at
: > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050205022800/exactphilosophy.net/book/
: > >[5] Robert Graves. The Greek Myths. 1960. 81k.
: > >[6] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p166.
: > >[7] Me. Axes and Opposites. Usenet post. 2002. Archived at
: > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050216230010/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s095.html
: > >[8] Me. Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac. Usenet post. 2002.
: > > Archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20050215194330/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s075.html
: > >[9] Liz Greene. The Astrology of Fate. Samuel Weiser. 1984. p205+206.
: > >[10] Bertold Brecht. Geschichten vom Herrn Keuner. 1930s.
: > >[11] Me. Usenet and Experiment. Usenet post. 2003. Archived at
: > > http://web.archive.org/web/20050222091126/exactphilosophy.net/selection/s246.html
: > >[12] Me. Usenet post with a link to my web site exactphilosophy.net. 2008.
: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/1382338c74bc0867?dmode=source
: > >[13] Me. Unconscious Communication and Astrology (see also original documents at
: > > my web site). 2008 (2002)). Quoted by Apollia and I.R.Heller (thx!):
: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/2659729d71e120c7
: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/ce4ee614eeaea3bc
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Something different...
I would like to preserve this contribution of mine here:
: One image came to my mind: A street in Zurich with lots of
: traffic, used mainly by people who go through Zurich, not
: into or out of it. Two lanes, lots of red lights, typically
: quite slow traffic. Houses relatively dark from exhausts
: (at least for Swiss standards), lots of immigrants, and many
: orthodox Jews, even a Synagogue at the street. A few houses
: before the synagogue, when driving south, on the left is a
: small shop that sells oriental carpets. A sign in the shop
: says that they "repair carpets". Since when can a carpet be
: broken? Is a carpet a machine that stops working? If it has
: a hole in it, does it then become impossible to step onto
: the carpet? But what if it was a magic carpet, a flying
: carpet like in this Sabian Symbol that I looked up:
:
: 18-19 deg Aries: The "Magic Carpet" Of Oriental Imagery
:
: Now 18-19 Aries is exactly opposite Venus and Mercury on
: the day that stocks started to plunge (15 September) and
: of course Mars was not far from that also in Libra, plus
: Eris is lingering also around these degrees in Aries.
:
: So one would feel that the "magic carpet" of the stock
: market had been brought down by the opposition in Libra
: and would now need repairs, I guess.
Originally posted 23 September 2008 at 10:06 local time.
)o+
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Something different...
A recent discussion at a.a.m drew my attention to Godwin's Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Being curious since some years to find out more about the birth
date of Usenet - all I know from public sources is that it has
been in autumn or early winter 1979 - I looked at the birth chart
of the originator of the "Law", Mike Goodwin:
October 26, 1956
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Godwin
In his birth chart there is a sun/Neptune conjunction in early
Scorpio - i.e. opposite Hitler's natal sun.
Something like this came to my mind:
"His self (sun) has the illusion (Neptune) that all persons
that one is conversing with in Usenet (opposition aspect, the
number 2, thus also related to the element Air, communication)
is likely to reveal themselves as Hitler (sun in opposition)."
Probably overly simplified in this form, but let me simply think
on... Would that thus just be an illusion of Mike Godwin, with no
particular relation to Usenet ? No. Because out of many things
that many people said about usenet, this made it into a popular
"Law", so it must have resonated with many people's feelings and
experiences in Usenet.
So, maybe Usenet itself also has a sun/Neptune conjunction ?
Since the first Usenet message had been sent with a set of shell
scripts that had been stitched together, it had always appeared
most likely to me that Usenet was born with planets in Sagittarius,
and most likely including the sun. Now, in autumn and winter 1979,
Neptune was in Sagittarius. The exact conjunction with the sun was
12 December at 20:21 UTC:
Sun: 20 Sag 13
Moon: 03 Lib 53
Mercury: 00 Sag 21
Venus 17 Cap 42
Mars: 09 Vir 04
Jupiter: 09 Vir 56
Saturn: 26 Vir 27
Uranus: 23 Ura 02
Neptune: 20 Sag 13
Pluto: 21 Lib 14
N.Node: 02 Vir 20
Chiron: 09 Tau 48
Lilith: 17 Vir 18
The Jupiter/Mars conjunction near the s.node reminds me immediately
of the following popular quote about Usenet:
Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea—massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
-- Eugene Spafford
http://www.smfr.org/mtnw/docs/Usenet.html
The elephants stand for Jupiter (c.f. Republican Party in the USA),
sudden unexpected happenings as well, like Zeus who usually observes
and lets people do whatever they fancy, only sometimes throwing in
a bolt of lightning that then often comes quite unexpected to the
folks living on the ground. Mars in conjunction seems to fit well,
and the "excrements" fit well with the s.node if you consider the
celestial dragon/snake with n.node head and s.node tail to be also
associvated with the "snake" of the digestive system in human beings,
i.e. mouth (n.node) - esophagus - stomach - guts - anus (s.node).
Sun/Neptune opposite Gemini, which makes me think of the two discouri
in Greek mythology, which would fit with the tendency of conversations
in Usenet to evolve often into "fights almost to the death", and a bolt
of lightning killing one of them, maybe, but also this quote:
You need two things on Usenet—a civil tongue and a thick skin.
-- Steve Dorner
http://www.smfr.org/mtnw/docs/Usenet.html
Obviously, I do not expect that the above chart is the exact birth
chart of Usenet, but it might be close, the idea of a sun/Neptune
conjunction seems at least compelling to me :)
Something else, or maybe not:
Charles Harvey, in the following article
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sun_nep.html
makes the interesting distinction between "incoming" and "outgoing"
aspects, at the example of sun/Neptune.
* In simple terms, the Sun-Neptune cycle can be seen as the cycle of the relationship
* between the focused Individual Unity (Sun) in relation to the all embracing Collective
* Unity (Neptune). The Sun represents the conscious individual, the focused leader, the
* purposeful Hero Soul shining with his own unique inner light; in contrast to Neptune,
* the boundless Collective Unconscious and the ocean of unitive reality. We can relate
* the Sun to the differentiated individual Seed whose potential is to become a unique,
* conscious carrier of a creative idea. By contrast, Neptune is the great vessel of
* archetypes which substands all our lives and dreams.
Here is an excerpt about the conjunction:
* Mohammad, the founder of Islam, is said to have been born on 5th May 570. If so, he was
* born at this conjunction which would be entirely appropriate for a man who preached so
* forcefully complete submission of the individual (Sun) to the will of God (Neptune),
* and the equality of all men of every race. This faith was to give birth to a tremendous
* rich flowering of arts and science and philosophy during our own Dark Ages.
C. G. Jung had a close outgoing square:
* The outgoing square demands that the individual meet the material world and grapple with
* the issues involved in making the root principles of the cycle manifest. This is often
* both the most problematic phase of any cycle and yet at the same time one of the most
* fruitful and productive. As the Sun arrives at the outgoing square to Neptune, the ego
* (Sun) is challenged to separate from the collective in some way, to differentiate from
* the archetypal and yet at the same time to carry forward the collective vision into the
* world.
Charles Harvey, Petrarca and me (although with relatively wide orbs)
have an incoming square instead:
* At the incoming square it would seem that the individual is concerned
* with returning the fruits of individuality to the greater good of the
* Collective.
which is already apparent by this quote being briefer than the ones
above. You cannot bring back and fit the whole richness of collective
possibilities into the individual selves of everybody, nor into any
person by him-/herself. You can only bring back seeds that allow to
grow beautiful/helpful/useful things relatively quickly, when needed
or desired.
So let me bring back a few now. In Jung's Aion, I started reading a bit
somewhere in the middle. In my edition this is on page 84/85, where he
links Saturn to donkeys, which I did not know, but makes sense, of course
in terms of the animals used by the two big parties in the USA. Jung also
mentions that in medieval tradition, the following religions are said to
have originated with the following conjunctions:
Jupiter/Saturn: Jewish
Jupiter/Venus: Muslim
Jupiter/Mercury: Christian
Jupiter/Moon: Antichrist
Now, Hitler had a Jupiter/moon conjunction in Capricorn, while Bush 43
has also one, namely the moon at 16*42 Libra and Jupiter at 18*09. Even
Al Gore has one, although with an orb of about 5 degrees. (Barack Obama
has a Jupiter/Saturn conjunction with the same orb, John McCain is free
of Jupiter conjunctions.)
How much free will is there ?
Would anyone but a Nazi consider Hitler an evil genius ? Wasn't he just
of average intelligence, maybe slighly more, but of course an a**ç&*%"
and very much unable to turn the themes in his birth chart into something
positive ? In that sense, comparing someone to Hitler is likely permissible
because there are arguably quite a few more people who fit that profile.
But when it comes to the actual actions of Hitler and the Nazis, WWII and
the industrialized killing of millions of people, there is very little that
can be compared to that, of course. In some sense, not even Stalin (Jupiter
conjunct n.node) does fit the industrial indifference of the Nazis, even
though Stalin killed nominally more people.
George W. Bush is also certainly not the most intelligent president that
the USA has ever had, nor does he seem to be able to handle his fate well.
But I also do not see him as more evil and cunning than most other people
in politics in the USA. In that sense, it was maybe really mainly the
positions of planets in his birth chart (paired with his inability to
handle them fruitfully) that has lead to lots of pain in recent years.
More loosely speaking, despite intentions that were maybe no worse than
the ones of previous presidents, limited abilities might have turned some
situations simply into "bad luck" for people in the USA and the world.
Take 9/11, with the AC and Mercury at 14 Libra, and the recent crash of
the stock market with Venus/Mercury at 18 Libra. Then again, who can tell
for sure what would have happened if someone else had been president ? Al
Gore also has a Jupiter/moon conjunction, albeit a more loose one, and in
my judgment he was also not much free of the forces influencing him at
the time he was running for president.
Not much choice there was in 2000 after the primaries, with two candidates
with a Jupiter/moon conjunction to choose from.
I recently saw the movie Hellboy II, The Golden Army, and was pleasantly
surprised that it was a return to a safe world in cinema. Despite fighting
all kinds of dangerous underwold creatures and despite the character Hellboy
being the son of "the fallen one", they team up and there is no doubt at all
at any time that they might not make it and it is certain that good and
individual freedom will prevail. Hellboy protects the weak and does the
right things. Felt very American / American Dream to me, although the movie
had been turned with a Mexican director in London and Hungary.
Its not what you have, but what you make of it :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
I. R. Heller wrote:
: Hello All:
: for those of you who were akso missing the updated poorgabriel
: information, you can find them by googeling for
: example:
: Poor Gabriel's Almanac - October 18th
The current edition (updated daily) is also available
on the web, at the following link on Gabe's web site:
http://www.mystery.com/~gabe/pga.html
Found it by googling for "Poor Gabriel"... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
CFA wrote:
: >At very least, it would recognize and translate this:
: >
: >- "Aries" in text => little image with glyph for Aries
: > (plus same for all other star signs)
:
: On usenet? Some servers filter non-text data- ie, html and graphics.
a) In message headers, similar to the "X-Face" header:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Face
b) Part of the software / configurable by user if desktop
application as news reader.
(As said in the original post, larger images could be
referenced, e.g. http://acme.com/myimg.jpg, and possibly
in the case of birth charts calculated on-the-fly from
indicated chart data in a specific format.)
No further activities planned in the foreseeable future
on my part regarding the ideas presented in this thread.
Too early for a free, self-regulating usenet, I guess,
unless someone else takes the initiative... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Posted with two extra headers:
- X-Face
- X-Aries-Glyph
(Both contain an encoded image of the cat in Alice in
Wonderland; the X-Face header is a generally known one,
while I just made up "X-Aries-Glyph".)
Not sure if both headers will make it through here
to a moderated newsgroup, since the moderation software
might kick out some headers, but I estimate this to be
rather unlikely - I will know the answer for sure as
soon as this post shows up...
In a similar post to unmoderated usenet (to alt.test)
both headers came through, at least on the news server
of my internet provider and also in google groups.
I except the same behavior for practically all news
servers in the world.
A post in the "AstroNewsReader" thread with some more
explanations should follow soon...
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
In article <2idh3m.5v2.17.1@news.alt.net>, CFA <bogus@alt.not> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >CFA wrote:
> >
> >: >At very least, it would recognize and translate this:
> >: >
> >: >- "Aries" in text => little image with glyph for Aries
> >: > (plus same for all other star signs)
> >:
> >: On usenet? Some servers filter non-text data- ie, html and graphics.
> >
> >a) In message headers, similar to the "X-Face" header:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Face
> >b) Part of the software / configurable by user if desktop
> > application as news reader.
>
> Still not sure how this would apply to servers that filter non-text.
Concerning the extra headers, see the test post to this
group. See the raw text of the post at google.groups:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/5c4bddc4e4886534?dmode=source&output=gplain
You can see the two extra headers (X-Face, X-Aries-Glyph)
that each encode an image of the cat in Alice in Wonderland.
--
Except maybe in such headers, no binary data would ever go
out to usenet news servers. The full text of a post including
headers might look like this (indented with * to visually
distinguish it from the contents of this post):
* From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
* Newsgroups: alt.astrology.tropical
* Subject: Test post with extra headers
* Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:12:06 CST
* Organization: exactphilosophy.net
* X-Opposition-Glyph: dsf9fsd9jisduhidhuifdshu324847sdfhsdaf7z434
* X-Aries-Glyph: sdfokrewi0090i4390jinfdsj098wefdsf49d9jn7e7dehsdfhns7we7
* X-Libra-Glyph: sfdajds9ew9iu9409fmfmwei9rewmsdifsdmkfgmksdgksajgnfjkgjk
*
* Here is the birth chart of John Doe:
*
* [chart place="New York, NY, USA" datetime="19480205221302"]
*
* Note the close Aries-Libra opposition.
*
* Doesn't that show in his face ? Here is a portait photo
* of John Doe in his early twenties:
*
* http://www.somewhere.com/somemore/johndoe.jpg
*
* )o
That is all that would ever be sent to a news server, and
all that e.g. moderation software would ever see. Only that
text would go over the normal usenet channel.
On the receiving end, where some reads the post, a more
sophisticated usenet reader than what is normally used
today would parse and render this text into something
that is visually richer:
It would replace the words "Aries", "Libra", "opposition"
by the included glyphs (or by glyphs stored with this
special news reader). It would connect to www.somewhere.com
and download the image of John Doe and display it within
the message (like a web browser displays images). Finally,
the special news reader would calculate the birth chart of
John Doe and also display it as part of the message.
Optimally, you would also be able to reply to such a post
with full visual richness, but what would get posted would
again just be some text.
People without special news readers could still read the
post as usual. They would have to click on links to see
images and they would have to calculate charts themselves,
but the essential information would still be there...
>
> >(As said in the original post, larger images could be
> >referenced, e.g. http://acme.com/myimg.jpg, and possibly
> >in the case of birth charts calculated on-the-fly from
> >indicated chart data in a specific format.)
>
> I think it's a great idea, I just don't know if the medium supports
> it.
As demonstrated above :)
> >No further activities planned in the foreseeable future
> >on my part regarding the ideas presented in this thread.
> >
> >Too early for a free, self-regulating usenet, I guess,
>
> I thought it was already both :-)
In some sense everything is "self-regulating"...
In that sense, yes, otherwise no, at least there
is lots of room for improvements...
> >unless someone else takes the initiative... ;)
> >
> >)o+
>
> Ken
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
On Aug 31, 4:11 am, Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:15:15 CST, Hermes
>
>
>
> <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >In article <88bub3pkq01ls62rh7m5qv2im6e7u20...@4ax.com>,
> > Jyeshta <whatever@twixtntween.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:10:37 CST, DJ <doovinator@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Aug 11, 11:30 pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >> >> The idea is that maybe if it is possible to identify
> >> >> the main reason(s), it might be easier then to find
> >> >> a way to bring astrology back into mainstream.
> >> >------
> >> >I think the main problem is that modern science is on the whole
> >> >reductionistic. Modern scientists tend to focus on smaller and more
> >> >precise answers to very specific questions, questions which have one
> >> >answer and one only, while astrology is about the broadest possible
> >> >canvas on which to paint a picture. I don't feel there's really any
> >> >way to reconcile the two, but I see no need to, either; the popularity
> >> >of any one style of human thought wanes and flows as with the tides,
> >> >and astrology will have its day too.
> >> >~DJ
>
> >> Also, there are too many variables to be able to prove it in any
> >> sort of interpretative way, plus there is the subjectivity of the
> >> individual astrologers to consider.
>
> >> But I did find a way to prove that astrology works. The problem
> >> is that it is contingent on having an exact, true birth time.
> >> And even astrologers aren't sure whether the 'first independent
> >> breath' constitutes the birth time.
>
> >> My method has nothing to do with interpretation - only timing of
> >> major life events using True Solar Arc Progressed MC and its
> >> derived Asc.
>
> >I will try that. My birth time should be precise. If birth
> >times in Switzerland, in the land of clocks, in the 1960s
> >when all people in hospitals were Swiss, are not usually
> >trustworthy, then maybe nowhere and at no time...
>
> >)o+
>
> I need to add - what one should look for are "hits" (aspects of
> any sort) involving either natal MC or Asc, or True Solar Arc
> Progressed MC or its derived Asc from secondary progressed
> planets at the times of major life events (deaths of loved ones,
> major relocations, births of one's own children, surgeries, and
> other types of life changing events).
>
> And of course, p MC or Asc hitting natal bodies (and I mean only
> the modern 10 bodies), or natal angles.
>
> Hits to major natal midpoints (such as Mars/Saturn, the "Death
> Axis") can be interesting too, but I found in every case it's the
> angles or their mid-points or mid-degrees that get hit.
>
> If you find that you see no hit to an angle at the time of a
> major life event, check the mid-points of both your natal MC and
> Asc, and your progressed MC and Asc, also check the mid-degrees.
>
> Sometimes, in lieu of a hit from a secondary progression, there
> will be a hit from a Solar Arc body, but I only use the
> conjunctions, squares, and oppositions when it comes to Solar
> Arcs.
>
> But it's fascinating - it's as if the angles of the chart work
> like the hands on a clock, timing every major life event.
Thanks a lot. :)
Please don't expect feedback too quickly. I want to take a
relaxed and detailed look, and might not have the leisure
to do so until xmas or next spring...
But I will do it. I guess it is related to Pisces (Uranus, n.Node
now) that people tend to only do things to which they feel no
immediate obligation (as compared to Cancer, who sort of
tries to hang on to almost anything).
Everything rests by changing. - Heraclitus
... especially around Switzerland (mountains move very little) - me
)o+
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exactphilosophy.net 2009
Why not borrow 5 minutes of your time for a detailed
overview of the original and quite carefully prepared
contents of my web site and what's new this year ? ;)
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Something different...
From: Alain Stalder <archive@exactphilosophy.net>
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http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different.
It appears that in agriculture in ancient China, it was
common to group fields into squares of 3 x 3 fields,
with 8 fields grouped in a ring around the 9th, central
field that was for common use and also contained a well.
This is a very good image of the relation between I Ching
(64 = 8 x 8 hexagrams) and the Tao Te Ching (81 = 9 x 9).
The I Ching is quite concrete and specific -- but plants
would not grow on the 8 outer fields without the water
from the well. So the "purpose" of the Tao Te Ching is
more indirect and relative.
On my web site, I show an interesting possible connection
between the 8 trigrams of the I Ching and the elements as
used in ancient Greek philosophy, and between fundamental
experience of space and time, and free will. (See section
"elementary philosophy" including its 4 subsections.)
I would very much like to link also the Tao Te Ching in a
similar approach in a future edition of my site, but for
that I would need a natural (not cultural as above) link
between the Tao Te Ching and the other things that I just
mentioned above. Any hints are welcome.
My site: http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Alain Stalder
From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.taoism
Subject: Something different...
Organization: exactphilosophy.net
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Something different...
(yearly update is up)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
In article <1167411808.556516.243780@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>,
"wanderriver" <wanderriver@hotmail.com> wrote:
> stumper wrote:
> > {:-]))) wrote:
> > > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Something different...
> > >>
> > >> (yearly update is up)
> > >>
> > >> http://www.exactphilosophy.net/>>
>
> exact philosophy is in the realm of exactly no thing, exactly, mostly,
> relatively speaking, perhaps in an exact philosophical way, I spect,
> perhaps. But then again he could be wrong or right as the realm flows
> this way and that exactly.
>
> > > Gets me to wondering if Dao
> > > is always the same or always different
> > > or maybe sum non thing in be tween.
> > >
> > > da kine
> >
> >
> > Wrong question.
> >
> > The answer is that
> > Dao is emergent.
> >
> > --
> > ~Stumper
"exact philosophy is in the realm of exactly no thing"
yeah, it can't be named
In article <63aap2lutedtgs46ssehssjpg49f396iep@4ax.com>,
"{:-])))" <jay@....--- -- .> wrote:
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> >Something different...
> >
> >(yearly update is up)
> >
> >http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
>
> Gets me to wondering if Dao
> is always the same or always different
> or maybe sum non thing in be tween.
>
> da kine
the site is inspired by zen gardens, every year
looks about the same, some details are different,
but the overall appearance remains
any radical step of growth etc. would be a step
away from the center
Hi everybody,
I have uploaded a preview version of my web site 2009:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
What's new:
- subsection "long-range feelings"
Are feelings something that is shared between two or more
people as often implicitly assumed in everyday life, or are
feelings isolated effects in each person's brain, as it is
according to contemporary science ? Astonishingly, telling
the two possibilities experimentally apart might be a lot
harder than it might appear at first. A lot more cool stuff
in that section, see for yourself...
- subsection "interfaces and cylces"
An attempt to derive Aristotle's cycle of the elements from
first principles; fails, but not completely since it leaves
only a small number of simple possibilities open.
- section "Archive"
A collection of links to some of my previous public works,
includiny many related to (Western tropical) astrology, but
there is more, ranging from philosophy to quantum physics
(I am a physicist, by the way...;)
- section "References"
Abstract and link to a paper titled "Bipolar Change" that was
published in the Journal of Chinese Philosophy this year and
which refers to my site and its main new idea.
What's still there:
- section "elementary philosophy" and subsections
A simple model that defines 4 quantities from the immediate
experience of space and time, inspired by Kant's philosophy
and then qualitatively identifies them with the 4 elements
from ancient Greek philosophy, i.e. Fire, Air, Water, Earth.
See for yourself for more details and also the 5th element
and a cross-cultural reference to the 8 trigrams of the
Chinese oracle I Ching (or Yi Jing).
Additionally scheduled for 2009 release (5 January):
- subsection "long-range feelings"
A few refinements and some leads.
- section "elementary philosophy"
Hopefully a few simple and beautiful illustrations to make the
maybe apparently abstract ideas more tangible for most readers.
Likely in the 2010 release:
- subsection "elementary star signs"
A simple model of the 12 star signs of the (Western) zodiac in
terms of transformations between the four elements. See Archive
in the meantime for some older texts that expose this model in
some detail. Despite its simplicity, the model is not simplistic,
it does not only capture basic properties of the star signs, but
can also serve as a very useful guide for deeper analysis, as I
hope to show then...
- subsection "magic carpets"
A collection of concrete contributions to symbolic analysis,
mostly, but not only, around Western tropical astrology. See
Archive in the meantime for many such examples, albeit in a
somewhat less polished form...
Planned further into the future:
- Yearly releases (5 January), plus usually a preview in late
autumn of the previous year
- More illustrations, generally more easily accessible stuff
- Formal attempts to synthesize provable predictions from the
main model under "elementary philosophy
- Whatever might evolve...
What is not planned:
- Any further usenet activities, except something like this
announcement every year (and possibly 1 or 2 related replies)
- No replies to trolls (I am posting this to various newsgroups,
not only moderated ones, and even there I was quite astonished
lately that even at sci.physics.research someone was so scared
angry to mistake absence of evidence with evidence of absence;
what a silly type of idiots: an open issue is simply open -
no less, no more - except for austriches who put their head
into the ground like little children or old men... ;)
Alain Stalder )o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
. ..'..... ..
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.. . !TVVLO4&f=:.. ...¨z8mk~. .=0mGL4O~: . .../6YC+~.
'"""^;`':. .. . ..,"=¨. .^7OkTj/.. .'^,...
exactphilosophy.net 2009
The site that can be visited should be visited...
See for yourselves, especially the first section "elemenary philosophy",
including its subsections has spoken and more often unspoken connections
to taoism. But also later on, especially under "evolutions => long-range
feelings", there is stuff that is likely of some interest...
The site consists only of about 15 pages or so, hence you can get a
detailed overview in less than 5 minutes. What's that compared to the
subsequent eternity of greatly enhanced wisdom... ;)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
wanderriver wrote:
[...]
: > --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
: > Something different...>>
:
: Enhanced, heck! I like the exactness of it. How cool is that! An
: exact philosophy! Does it have the number nine in it?
This place is the last one where I would have expected
someone to reply merely to the *name* of my site...
Take a look! :)
It is an interesting site for someone inclined towards
eastern philosophies...
It is written by an open minded physicist...
One of the ideas of my site has been cited in the journal
of chinese philosophy this year (see References)...
Sure, all the things above are just indirect indications,
but, remember, it was you who barked about the name... ;)
Thus you owe me a visit of at least nine minutes ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
wanderriver wrote:
: On Dec 25, 4:02?pm, Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
: > wanderriver wrote:
: >
: > [...]
: > : > --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
: > : > Something different...>>
: > :
: > : Enhanced, heck! ?I like the exactness of it. ?How cool is that! ?An
: > : exact philosophy! ?Does it have the number nine in it?
: >
: > This place is the last one where I would have expected
: > someone to reply merely to the *name* of my site...
: >
: > Take a look! :)
: >
: > It is an interesting site for someone inclined towards
: > eastern philosophies...
: >
: > It is written by an open minded physicist...
: >
: > One of the ideas of my site has been cited in the journal
: > of chinese philosophy this year (see References)...
: >
: > Sure, all the things above are just indirect indications,
: > but, remember, it was you who barked about the name... ;)
: >
: > Thus you owe me a visit of at least nine minutes ;)>>
:
: > If it's an exact philosophy than why are you here, exactly?
: >
: > Wouldn't you stay with the exactness of your philosophy instead of
: > wondering about?
Since you insist about the *name* of my site ;)
Very difficult to describe what exactphilosophy (in one word)
would be or might grow into (which is why I recommend to simply
take a few minutes to take a look at my site) - easier to list
some things that it is not instead:
- It is not an attempt to force nature into a mathematical
straightjacket
- It is not limited to phenomena in the outer, "objective"
world, as is science today in the eyes of most scientists.
- It never claims to know anything with certainty, and thus
hopefully can get very close...
- It has nothing to do with the "Society of Exact Philosophy",
besides the similarity of name (one word vs. two words).
- Maybe some would contain elements of these: oriented on
direct experience of nature, specific and mathematically
precise tentatively where it might reveal interesting
connections, not afraid to leave many things open, and
fundamentally leaving everything open, a balance between
many things that today many people prefer to polarize upon?
- Or maybe none of the above ?
- I would say, you owe me now a 81 minute visit to my site.
It does not hurt, it is a nice, minimal site, into which
a lot of contemplation went, I would guess at least 2000
hours of consideration, so far...
Why I keep wandering about ? Less than it used to be. Who
says that I am, actually, from one point of view I am just
sitting at my computer and typing a few lines. Or maybe I
just feel that some ideas from my site would also interest
other people ? Could make their lives a little richer or
something like that ?
Still astonished to see so much attention to words...
Why not pick on a word like "richer" in the next reply ?
Are words just a shallow wall that separates from nature ?
"What we can say, goes into words. The words put themselves
between us and our conceptions, which have so far surrounded
us, like a new and independent element, like a third
partner in a game. Slowly we approach them and string them
together, one besides the other; they form an invisible
curtain, of which one cannot say, whether it connects us
with our conceptions or separates us from them. In the space
occupied with correlations that spans between us and our
conceptions, words like "connect" and "separate" loose their
common meaning and win a higher meaning shared by both of
them, "being in between"."
-- Vera Linhartova at the beginning of "Geschichten ohne
Zusammenhang" (Suhrkamp, 1965).
Or something like that, no claims of absolute truth... ;)
(Why not pick on "absolute truth in the next reply ?)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
kamerm wrote:
[...]
: > http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
: > Something different...
:
:
: Hi Hermes,
:
: WR's too sincere to be a troll, but he has his moments (many of them ;-)
No problem, I am used to usenet and its strange and
fascinating ways to communicate with me...
Can, of course, be very frustrating and annoying at
times, but the best idea I ever had would not have
emerged without previously posting to usenet...
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
shazi wrote:
: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
:
: >wanderriver wrote:
: >[...]
: >: > --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
: >: > Something different...>>
: >:
: >: Enhanced, heck! I like the exactness of it. How cool is that! An
: >: exact philosophy! Does it have the number nine in it?
: >
: >This place is the last one where I would have expected
: >someone to reply merely to the *name* of my site...
:
: wanderriver often goes on a tangent
: based upon who knows what...
:
: it's just part of the noise
: that makes up unmoderated usenet groups.
I don't know, what is noise and what is content
is often a lot more subtle in usenet than common
perceptions of such things outside of usenet.
Not that the conscious individual thoughts of the
people who produce the "noise" would be aware of
such things often, but they are just servants to
the "Mathmos", most often driven by strong fears
of the women around them in unmoderated usenet.
Or maybe not... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
wanderriver wrote:
> > Why I keep wandering about ? >>
>
> I said wondering, knot wandering. for your exact philosophy how many
> miles of wondering did you hike?
still so much emphasis on *names* ? ;)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen
Subject: ANNOUNCE: exactphilosophy.net 2009
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...,:^^-¨~|i((tt6n&Vm*mm8G$='.. . .,=]t^`:^taVG4J:
.`^|[w&VOV*88G*GGG*m03}&8*LI!:.. . .=[+>!i|C009f|^.
. . .:!ia00nT88*nwyons5Y0kkY4LkYz~, . ....|8Gxe88f)^,..
. :"i5Vo%!^,:"!^`...:,.:^\~=+t("`... ..."jmGYy$!`. .
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. ..''!tr5Onv^:.. .. .. . . . . . ... :vY&"...
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..~T*O8*Lns&Y*88L2);. ...^c85iuk$-;JmGmxmC^. ..=4O!:=Tl:.:(Oeexexw`.
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.. . !TVVLO4&f=:.. ...¨z8mk~. .=0mGL4O~: . .../6YC+~.
'"""^;`':. .. . ..,"=¨. .^7OkTj/.. .'^,...
exactphilosophy.net 2009
Why not borrow 5 minutes of your time for a detailed
overview of the original and quite carefully prepared
contents of my web site and what's new this year ? ;)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
From: Delphi Twentine <delphi29@excite.com>
Newsgroups: alt.psychology.jung
Subject: Ideas behind "A few new discoveries in physics"
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Hi there. This post lists a few ideas behind the
document "A few new discoveries in physics" by
Alain Stalder (http://www.exactphilosophy.net),
which had been first published in June 2002.
The fundamentals of the document are about physics
in the narrower sense of the word. But its observable
consequences are seen essentially in properies of
human culture, in psychology and sociology. In other
words, the claims made can only be verified in an
interdisciplinary manner when several experts with
different fields of expertise bring their knowledge
together. I hope this help a bit to it :)
I am going through all ideas in the abstract, one after
the other. Note that I am a real physicist with a PhD
in physics, not just a hobbyist.
> A new physical effect is described. Human brains are emotionally
> interconnected. The connection is directional with spin 1
> symmetry and can be felt across global distances and through the
> earth. The exact physical nature of the effect remains unknown.
> Selective sensing of virtual photons, i.e. of electro- or
> magnetostatic forces, might be part of a future theoretical
> explanation.
Fundamentally, static forces are never shielded, they only cancel.
(For example, in the Faraday Effect, charges redistribute such on
the cage that forces inside vanish, i.e. forces sum up to zero).
Of course, this does not seem to make a difference, because all
that can apparently be measured is the sum of the forces anyway.
However, at a microscopic scale physics might be different,
cancelation might not be perfect. In other words, I am proposing
(without presenting a specific theory) that some properties that
only appear at small scale, i.e. in quantum mechanics, are
related to forces not always canceling perfectly at a microscopic
scale. EPR-style experiments and the Aharonov-Bohm Effect point
somewhat into the same direction.
What do I mean by "emotionally interconnected" ? I mean a
connection that cannot be controlled by the individual, a
connection that cannot be consciously used to send information
from A to B, but only shares information between A and B, in the
way that measurements are correlated in EPR-style experiments.
The symmetry properties of the effect point to electromagnetism,
i.e. to selective "sensing" of virtual photons. The strength of
electromagnetic forces would make it in principle easily possible
to feel forces even when A and B are several thousand kilometers
apart (see Gedankenexperiment inside the document).
> Based on the discovered effect, a plausible explanation of
> phenomena like telepathy and precognition is given.
Telepathy in that sense, could not be consciously used to transmit
information, there would merely be correlations between spacially
separated places. Unconsciously, things could possibly be different;
i.e. what I just said might be a workable definition of unconscious.
Precognition might either come about on a fundamental level
(spacelike correlation A-B and B-C can imply a timelike correlation
A-C) or by the hypothesis that billions of human brains create
a collective being, a thinking and feeling entity which develops
its plans. In other words, in the latter case precognition would
only be apparent to the individual, because he/she would not be
aware of the collective plans. Example with the analogy of brain
cells in the brain: Imagine you are in a dark room, just about to
switch on the light. Then you might already picture the room when
it is lit, so that a brain cell in the part of the brain where
things are visualized would precognize the light by a few seconds.
> It is also made plausible how astrology and other ancient
> mythological beliefs have persisted unconsciously until today
> and continue to influence our fates by means of collective
> emotional feedback.
Here it is hypothetized that astrology is to first order
essentially a gigantic Placebo Effect. It is suggested that
unconsciously everybody believes in astrology (and other ancient
ideas). It is obvious that astrology has no *immediate*
correlation to the planets and stars in the way in which
astrologers say (precession, equally spaced astrological signs
compared to constellations of various sizes, etc.).
Side remark: Astrology has emerged out of the experiences of
hundreds of generations. In my estimation and personal
experience, it does contain deep and interesting insights into
human existence and into nature. I will be interested to see
what scientific exploration will yield concretely.
> The western astrological system is shown to be essentially
> composed of simple, opposing principles which originate from
> ancient greek philosophy.
The views of Aristoteles, especially his way of composing the
four elements out of properties "dry/wet" and "hot/cold" is
interpreted psychologically. Water is identified with feelings,
for example, Air with logic, etc. Out of some very basic
psychological properties, like e.g. open/secretive, a more
complex structure is constructed that reproduces many things
which psychological astrologers (i.e. astrologers mainly based
on C.G. Jung's depth psychology) recognize from their experience
in psychological counseling and analysis.
> There are two main discoveries. Meanings associated with the
> star sign, different inner planets were in at birth time,
> influence how one relates to different classes of people.
Nothing to add here, see document for specifics.
> The meanings associated with star signs themselves derive from
> different mixtures of the four classical elements, more
> specifically, from meanings associated with transitions from
> one element to another.
This constitutes a crucial simplification. A very simple model
based on 4 elements and their mutual (psychological)
transformations produces psychological properties of the 12 signs
of the zodiac that are in practically all aspects compatible with
current astrological beliefs.
> The discoveries are simple and specific enough to be verified
> quantitatively.
This is the crucial point. So far astrology has just been so
complex, has been so fluffily defined (and differently by different
astrologers), that testing it quantitatively has been limited
only to some variant chosen essentially by the experimentator.
My suggestions are significantly more coherent and specific than
anything I have seen so far in astrology.
I would like to thank Peter Lynds for the refreshing style of his
paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminancy
vs. Discontinuity", which influenced also the style of this text.
delphi29@excite.com*
--
* delphi29@excite.com ("Delphi Twentine") is a pseudonym
for Alain Stalder, which I have been using exclusively
for usenet posting since about July 2003.
PS: I have posted this post to various newsgroups that
are concerned by it, but not cross-posted. Simply go
to groups.google.com, search for "exactphilosophy",
and sort by date. Then you should see all related posts.
(Maybe a physicist will say something about psychology
that is not state of the art, or vice versa. Might be
a good opportunity to jump in, or just to observe how
the same post is received in different places...
Direct link to google search:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=exactphilosophy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&filter=0
From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.test.a
Subject: A look back...
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Had I not had the idea H14b, I would very likely never
have gone public and did it only because I felt a heavy
burden on me ever since I had the idea.
Now I feel and think that I did enough to impregnate the
matrix with the idea and with several more ideas that are
related to it and might thus lead back to it.
The idea H1-5 is too mysterious to publish about without
any clear proof, and how to interpret my personal story
is something that is undecidable, at least as undetermined
as generally an observable quantity before measurement in
quantum mechanics.
Anyway, my web site is now finished, after considering the
matter many times again and again. Like a sculpture, it is
now finished and will not be changed, no matter what. The
state it remains at is the one of 23 April 2007 22:14. As
far as "under the hood" is concerned, the site will gently
remain up to date technologically and indexable by search
engines, but, as I said, its contents will remain unchanged
no matter what. No matter what.
This is essentially because things are connected; there is
no way around it in the end. Maybe if the idea that is most
prominent and is the best of them all turns into a provable
state, I might consider publication in a scientific journal,
but only then and even then my site will remain unchanged.
It may not seem likely at this moment, but it is very likely
that this will grow and suddenly even very fast and at some
point others will publish - with my permission - books that
contain my site and likely other related stuff by me and by
others. At least I have faith in it and you should, too.
My excuses to anybody who I might have hurt recently, but it
was not possible otherwise to exit, in my view and feeling.
Also, I am not all that much related to the images that I did
evoke recently, it did just fit with the purpose here. In the
end I am like Hermes, announcing the news, or like Odysseus
in Kafka's short story, such a fox that I know that I have to
fool myself if I effectively want to fool anybody else in the
higher interest of the general public in the long term.
Q: "What about Prague?" (my first query ever to the I Ching)
A: 64 wei chi ("But if the little fox..."; Saturn end of Psc)
Because he does not strive, nobody finds it possible to strive
with him (summer of love, 66 tao te ching, nothing in public)
I did and do look into the mirror and, yes, this end fits.
Too keep off any eventual "bad spirits" or even "spells":
* Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
)o+
Hermes wrote:
> Had I not had the idea H14b, I would very likely never
> have gone public and did it only because I felt a heavy
> burden on me ever since I had the idea.
>
> Now I feel and think that I did enough to impregnate the
> matrix with the idea and with several more ideas that are
> related to it and might thus lead back to it.
>
> The idea H1-5 is too mysterious to publish about without
> any clear proof, and how to interpret my personal story
> is something that is undecidable, at least as undetermined
> as generally an observable quantity before measurement in
> quantum mechanics.
>
> Anyway, my web site is now finished, after considering the
> matter many times again and again. Like a sculpture, it is
> now finished and will not be changed, no matter what. The
> state it remains at is the one of 23 April 2007 22:14. As
> far as "under the hood" is concerned, the site will gently
> remain up to date technologically and indexable by search
> engines, but, as I said, its contents will remain unchanged
> no matter what. No matter what.
That is Capricorn, I guess, hardness. Aquarius overcomes this
gridlock usually by just bending such hard statements a little
bit and rearranging several of them, a kind of compromise,
very much on the axis Leo-Aquarius. In that sense, things
turned in the meantime out to be a compromise that still
respects the hardness of individual needs and positions.
Last week I felt so bad at times, even though there was no
real reason for it, that at some point I simply thought that
maybe it was still P., even though it did not feel all that
much like that when quickly tried before. So, yes, it was
related to her, I even turned my computer monitor at work
45* towards the window, so that my head would while working
usually be directed more towards her, and, yes, it made a
world of a difference. Once more fully connected.
(Eppur si muove!)
This weekend, I archived the current site to web2008.zip and
added an evolutions section to the current site. More details
further below...
> This is essentially because things are connected; there is
> no way around it in the end. Maybe if the idea that is most
> prominent and is the best of them all turns into a provable
> state, I might consider publication in a scientific journal,
> but only then and even then my site will remain unchanged.
I can well do that with regard to the main idea in the section
"elementary philosophy", the idea to define elements by in/out
and rest/move, plus free will/fate. The evolutions section is
bound to different forces, P., and some other, plus collective
wishes, I guess. So, it can evolve, I am just managing it.
Also, with the current introduction (evolutions.html), it is
OK for me even if people I know from work see it that way. Is
open, just considering something maybe rather exotic in a
neutral swiss way. Also, no more direct link to odyssey.zip,
that is now only from archived web sites (i.e. requires to
download *.zip, unzip, find link and click there).
Also added a reconstruction of web in 2002, because even if
it is a bit naive in being so blunt, is still my best guess
as to how it really is. And is, as I felt, one of the hard
conditions on her side.
In the synthesis section, I hint at my site incl. archive and
suggest ("If you dare") to maybe also dig up my usenet posts.
There is even a link to my "lead in" C to D post. Unlikely that
anybody will click it probably in the next few years, but it is
there, something that is I guess important to me and P.
Even that part is acceptable, also since a bit hidden, even if
people I know from work would see it.
Google still does not like my site and I am very much inclined
to leave it at that, as fate, a collective wish, since other
search machines pick it up, while the majority of people, most
certainly the ones I know from work, exclusively use google,
I guess. Could manage to make it visible with quite some work,
but what for. both would be OK with me. Let it be...
> It may not seem likely at this moment, but it is very likely
> that this will grow and suddenly even very fast and at some
> point others will publish - with my permission - books that
> contain my site and likely other related stuff by me and by
> others. At least I have faith in it and you should, too.
>
> My excuses to anybody who I might have hurt recently, but it
> was not possible otherwise to exit, in my view and feeling.
> Also, I am not all that much related to the images that I did
> evoke recently, it did just fit with the purpose here. In the
> end I am like Hermes, announcing the news, or like Odysseus
> in Kafka's short story, such a fox that I know that I have to
> fool myself if I effectively want to fool anybody else in the
> higher interest of the general public in the long term.
>
> Q: "What about Prague?" (my first query ever to the I Ching)
> A: 64 wei chi ("But if the little fox..."; Saturn end of Psc)
I don't know. The connection to her is bound to remain, I guess,
"no matter what", at least nothing that I or her can do in any
conscious way, has apparently any impact on the connection just
remaining there, sometimes very strongly (when these things are
concerned), sometimes less. So the only remaining way to proceed
is to leave that as it is and live with it, not letting it stand
in the way of the future.
> Because he does not strive, nobody finds it possible to strive
> with him (summer of love, 66 tao te ching, nothing in public)
Come back to me...
> I did and do look into the mirror and, yes, this end fits.
>
> Too keep off any eventual "bad spirits" or even "spells":
>
> * Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
>
> )o+
In article <hermes-3B10D4.14003327012008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> > Had I not had the idea H14b, I would very likely never
> > have gone public and did it only because I felt a heavy
> > burden on me ever since I had the idea.
> >
> > Now I feel and think that I did enough to impregnate the
> > matrix with the idea and with several more ideas that are
> > related to it and might thus lead back to it.
> >
> > The idea H1-5 is too mysterious to publish about without
> > any clear proof, and how to interpret my personal story
> > is something that is undecidable, at least as undetermined
> > as generally an observable quantity before measurement in
> > quantum mechanics.
> >
> > Anyway, my web site is now finished, after considering the
> > matter many times again and again. Like a sculpture, it is
> > now finished and will not be changed, no matter what. The
> > state it remains at is the one of 23 April 2007 22:14. As
> > far as "under the hood" is concerned, the site will gently
> > remain up to date technologically and indexable by search
> > engines, but, as I said, its contents will remain unchanged
> > no matter what. No matter what.
>
> That is Capricorn, I guess, hardness. Aquarius overcomes this
> gridlock usually by just bending such hard statements a little
> bit and rearranging several of them, a kind of compromise,
> very much on the axis Leo-Aquarius. In that sense, things
> turned in the meantime out to be a compromise that still
> respects the hardness of individual needs and positions.
>
> Last week I felt so bad at times, even though there was no
> real reason for it, that at some point I simply thought that
> maybe it was still P., even though it did not feel all that
> much like that when quickly tried before. So, yes, it was
> related to her, I even turned my computer monitor at work
> 45* towards the window, so that my head would while working
> usually be directed more towards her, and, yes, it made a
> world of a difference. Once more fully connected.
>
> (Eppur si muove!)
>
> This weekend, I archived the current site to web2008.zip and
> added an evolutions section to the current site. More details
> further below...
>
> > This is essentially because things are connected; there is
> > no way around it in the end. Maybe if the idea that is most
> > prominent and is the best of them all turns into a provable
> > state, I might consider publication in a scientific journal,
> > but only then and even then my site will remain unchanged.
>
> I can well do that with regard to the main idea in the section
> "elementary philosophy", the idea to define elements by in/out
> and rest/move, plus free will/fate. The evolutions section is
> bound to different forces, P., and some other, plus collective
> wishes, I guess. So, it can evolve, I am just managing it.
>
> Also, with the current introduction (evolutions.html), it is
> OK for me even if people I know from work see it that way. Is
> open, just considering something maybe rather exotic in a
> neutral swiss way. Also, no more direct link to odyssey.zip,
> that is now only from archived web sites (i.e. requires to
> download *.zip, unzip, find link and click there).
>
> Also added a reconstruction of web in 2002, because even if
> it is a bit naive in being so blunt, is still my best guess
> as to how it really is. And is, as I felt, one of the hard
> conditions on her side.
>
> In the synthesis section, I hint at my site incl. archive and
> suggest ("If you dare") to maybe also dig up my usenet posts.
> There is even a link to my "lead in" C to D post. Unlikely that
> anybody will click it probably in the next few years, but it is
> there, something that is I guess important to me and P.
>
> Even that part is acceptable, also since a bit hidden, even if
> people I know from work would see it.
>
> Google still does not like my site and I am very much inclined
> to leave it at that, as fate, a collective wish, since other
> search machines pick it up, while the majority of people, most
> certainly the ones I know from work, exclusively use google,
> I guess. Could manage to make it visible with quite some work,
> but what for. both would be OK with me. Let it be...
>
> > It may not seem likely at this moment, but it is very likely
> > that this will grow and suddenly even very fast and at some
> > point others will publish - with my permission - books that
> > contain my site and likely other related stuff by me and by
> > others. At least I have faith in it and you should, too.
> >
> > My excuses to anybody who I might have hurt recently, but it
> > was not possible otherwise to exit, in my view and feeling.
> > Also, I am not all that much related to the images that I did
> > evoke recently, it did just fit with the purpose here. In the
> > end I am like Hermes, announcing the news, or like Odysseus
> > in Kafka's short story, such a fox that I know that I have to
> > fool myself if I effectively want to fool anybody else in the
> > higher interest of the general public in the long term.
> >
> > Q: "What about Prague?" (my first query ever to the I Ching)
> > A: 64 wei chi ("But if the little fox..."; Saturn end of Psc)
>
> I don't know. The connection to her is bound to remain, I guess,
> "no matter what", at least nothing that I or her can do in any
> conscious way, has apparently any impact on the connection just
> remaining there, sometimes very strongly (when these things are
> concerned), sometimes less. So the only remaining way to proceed
> is to leave that as it is and live with it, not letting it stand
> in the way of the future.
>
> > Because he does not strive, nobody finds it possible to strive
> > with him (summer of love, 66 tao te ching, nothing in public)
>
> Come back to me...
>
> > I did and do look into the mirror and, yes, this end fits.
> >
> > Too keep off any eventual "bad spirits" or even "spells":
> >
> > * Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
> >
> > )o+
No, no, no. Not this way. The site of 2007-04-23 22:14 is
exactly as I want it to be and remain. If you want to have
it your way, become my girlfriend, for real, not virtually.
So then I will just feel maybe bad for a while, so what.
Better than having again those two ideas about long-range
feelings and elementary astrology on my back alone. No,
all I want to carry by myself is the main idea on my site
now, which is natural and neutral and everybody can link
to without fear, because it is not even wrong and should
it ever be proven it would be so natural and beautiful
that there would be no danger to the world and the people
within. No girl, if you want me to carry this, pick up
the phone or board a flight... I want a girlfriend who is
really around me, somebody I can see and feel and smell.
Hence, bye "C.", on to "D."...
* Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
)o+
In article <hermes-BBAD09.19011827012008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <hermes-3B10D4.14003327012008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > Hermes wrote:
> >
> > > Had I not had the idea H14b, I would very likely never
> > > have gone public and did it only because I felt a heavy
> > > burden on me ever since I had the idea.
> > >
> > > Now I feel and think that I did enough to impregnate the
> > > matrix with the idea and with several more ideas that are
> > > related to it and might thus lead back to it.
> > >
> > > The idea H1-5 is too mysterious to publish about without
> > > any clear proof, and how to interpret my personal story
> > > is something that is undecidable, at least as undetermined
> > > as generally an observable quantity before measurement in
> > > quantum mechanics.
> > >
> > > Anyway, my web site is now finished, after considering the
> > > matter many times again and again. Like a sculpture, it is
> > > now finished and will not be changed, no matter what. The
> > > state it remains at is the one of 23 April 2007 22:14. As
> > > far as "under the hood" is concerned, the site will gently
> > > remain up to date technologically and indexable by search
> > > engines, but, as I said, its contents will remain unchanged
> > > no matter what. No matter what.
> >
> > That is Capricorn, I guess, hardness. Aquarius overcomes this
> > gridlock usually by just bending such hard statements a little
> > bit and rearranging several of them, a kind of compromise,
> > very much on the axis Leo-Aquarius. In that sense, things
> > turned in the meantime out to be a compromise that still
> > respects the hardness of individual needs and positions.
> >
> > Last week I felt so bad at times, even though there was no
> > real reason for it, that at some point I simply thought that
> > maybe it was still P., even though it did not feel all that
> > much like that when quickly tried before. So, yes, it was
> > related to her, I even turned my computer monitor at work
> > 45* towards the window, so that my head would while working
> > usually be directed more towards her, and, yes, it made a
> > world of a difference. Once more fully connected.
> >
> > (Eppur si muove!)
> >
> > This weekend, I archived the current site to web2008.zip and
> > added an evolutions section to the current site. More details
> > further below...
> >
> > > This is essentially because things are connected; there is
> > > no way around it in the end. Maybe if the idea that is most
> > > prominent and is the best of them all turns into a provable
> > > state, I might consider publication in a scientific journal,
> > > but only then and even then my site will remain unchanged.
> >
> > I can well do that with regard to the main idea in the section
> > "elementary philosophy", the idea to define elements by in/out
> > and rest/move, plus free will/fate. The evolutions section is
> > bound to different forces, P., and some other, plus collective
> > wishes, I guess. So, it can evolve, I am just managing it.
> >
> > Also, with the current introduction (evolutions.html), it is
> > OK for me even if people I know from work see it that way. Is
> > open, just considering something maybe rather exotic in a
> > neutral swiss way. Also, no more direct link to odyssey.zip,
> > that is now only from archived web sites (i.e. requires to
> > download *.zip, unzip, find link and click there).
> >
> > Also added a reconstruction of web in 2002, because even if
> > it is a bit naive in being so blunt, is still my best guess
> > as to how it really is. And is, as I felt, one of the hard
> > conditions on her side.
> >
> > In the synthesis section, I hint at my site incl. archive and
> > suggest ("If you dare") to maybe also dig up my usenet posts.
> > There is even a link to my "lead in" C to D post. Unlikely that
> > anybody will click it probably in the next few years, but it is
> > there, something that is I guess important to me and P.
> >
> > Even that part is acceptable, also since a bit hidden, even if
> > people I know from work would see it.
> >
> > Google still does not like my site and I am very much inclined
> > to leave it at that, as fate, a collective wish, since other
> > search machines pick it up, while the majority of people, most
> > certainly the ones I know from work, exclusively use google,
> > I guess. Could manage to make it visible with quite some work,
> > but what for. both would be OK with me. Let it be...
> >
> > > It may not seem likely at this moment, but it is very likely
> > > that this will grow and suddenly even very fast and at some
> > > point others will publish - with my permission - books that
> > > contain my site and likely other related stuff by me and by
> > > others. At least I have faith in it and you should, too.
> > >
> > > My excuses to anybody who I might have hurt recently, but it
> > > was not possible otherwise to exit, in my view and feeling.
> > > Also, I am not all that much related to the images that I did
> > > evoke recently, it did just fit with the purpose here. In the
> > > end I am like Hermes, announcing the news, or like Odysseus
> > > in Kafka's short story, such a fox that I know that I have to
> > > fool myself if I effectively want to fool anybody else in the
> > > higher interest of the general public in the long term.
> > >
> > > Q: "What about Prague?" (my first query ever to the I Ching)
> > > A: 64 wei chi ("But if the little fox..."; Saturn end of Psc)
> >
> > I don't know. The connection to her is bound to remain, I guess,
> > "no matter what", at least nothing that I or her can do in any
> > conscious way, has apparently any impact on the connection just
> > remaining there, sometimes very strongly (when these things are
> > concerned), sometimes less. So the only remaining way to proceed
> > is to leave that as it is and live with it, not letting it stand
> > in the way of the future.
> >
> > > Because he does not strive, nobody finds it possible to strive
> > > with him (summer of love, 66 tao te ching, nothing in public)
> >
> > Come back to me...
> >
> > > I did and do look into the mirror and, yes, this end fits.
> > >
> > > Too keep off any eventual "bad spirits" or even "spells":
> > >
> > > * Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
> > >
> > > )o+
>
> No, no, no. Not this way. The site of 2007-04-23 22:14 is
> exactly as I want it to be and remain. If you want to have
> it your way, become my girlfriend, for real, not virtually.
> So then I will just feel maybe bad for a while, so what.
> Better than having again those two ideas about long-range
> feelings and elementary astrology on my back alone. No,
> all I want to carry by myself is the main idea on my site
> now, which is natural and neutral and everybody can link
> to without fear, because it is not even wrong and should
> it ever be proven it would be so natural and beautiful
> that there would be no danger to the world and the people
> within. No girl, if you want me to carry this, pick up
> the phone or board a flight... I want a girlfriend who is
> really around me, somebody I can see and feel and smell.
>
> Hence, bye "C.", on to "D."...
>
> * Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
>
> )o+
Pick your favorite ;)
In article <hermes-8642C3.22410327012008@news.bluewin.ch>,
Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> In article <hermes-BBAD09.19011827012008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <hermes-3B10D4.14003327012008@news.bluewin.ch>,
> > Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Hermes wrote:
> > >
> > > > Had I not had the idea H14b, I would very likely never
> > > > have gone public and did it only because I felt a heavy
> > > > burden on me ever since I had the idea.
> > > >
> > > > Now I feel and think that I did enough to impregnate the
> > > > matrix with the idea and with several more ideas that are
> > > > related to it and might thus lead back to it.
> > > >
> > > > The idea H1-5 is too mysterious to publish about without
> > > > any clear proof, and how to interpret my personal story
> > > > is something that is undecidable, at least as undetermined
> > > > as generally an observable quantity before measurement in
> > > > quantum mechanics.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, my web site is now finished, after considering the
> > > > matter many times again and again. Like a sculpture, it is
> > > > now finished and will not be changed, no matter what. The
> > > > state it remains at is the one of 23 April 2007 22:14. As
> > > > far as "under the hood" is concerned, the site will gently
> > > > remain up to date technologically and indexable by search
> > > > engines, but, as I said, its contents will remain unchanged
> > > > no matter what. No matter what.
> > >
> > > That is Capricorn, I guess, hardness. Aquarius overcomes this
> > > gridlock usually by just bending such hard statements a little
> > > bit and rearranging several of them, a kind of compromise,
> > > very much on the axis Leo-Aquarius. In that sense, things
> > > turned in the meantime out to be a compromise that still
> > > respects the hardness of individual needs and positions.
> > >
> > > Last week I felt so bad at times, even though there was no
> > > real reason for it, that at some point I simply thought that
> > > maybe it was still P., even though it did not feel all that
> > > much like that when quickly tried before. So, yes, it was
> > > related to her, I even turned my computer monitor at work
> > > 45* towards the window, so that my head would while working
> > > usually be directed more towards her, and, yes, it made a
> > > world of a difference. Once more fully connected.
> > >
> > > (Eppur si muove!)
> > >
> > > This weekend, I archived the current site to web2008.zip and
> > > added an evolutions section to the current site. More details
> > > further below...
> > >
> > > > This is essentially because things are connected; there is
> > > > no way around it in the end. Maybe if the idea that is most
> > > > prominent and is the best of them all turns into a provable
> > > > state, I might consider publication in a scientific journal,
> > > > but only then and even then my site will remain unchanged.
> > >
> > > I can well do that with regard to the main idea in the section
> > > "elementary philosophy", the idea to define elements by in/out
> > > and rest/move, plus free will/fate. The evolutions section is
> > > bound to different forces, P., and some other, plus collective
> > > wishes, I guess. So, it can evolve, I am just managing it.
> > >
> > > Also, with the current introduction (evolutions.html), it is
> > > OK for me even if people I know from work see it that way. Is
> > > open, just considering something maybe rather exotic in a
> > > neutral swiss way. Also, no more direct link to odyssey.zip,
> > > that is now only from archived web sites (i.e. requires to
> > > download *.zip, unzip, find link and click there).
> > >
> > > Also added a reconstruction of web in 2002, because even if
> > > it is a bit naive in being so blunt, is still my best guess
> > > as to how it really is. And is, as I felt, one of the hard
> > > conditions on her side.
> > >
> > > In the synthesis section, I hint at my site incl. archive and
> > > suggest ("If you dare") to maybe also dig up my usenet posts.
> > > There is even a link to my "lead in" C to D post. Unlikely that
> > > anybody will click it probably in the next few years, but it is
> > > there, something that is I guess important to me and P.
> > >
> > > Even that part is acceptable, also since a bit hidden, even if
> > > people I know from work would see it.
> > >
> > > Google still does not like my site and I am very much inclined
> > > to leave it at that, as fate, a collective wish, since other
> > > search machines pick it up, while the majority of people, most
> > > certainly the ones I know from work, exclusively use google,
> > > I guess. Could manage to make it visible with quite some work,
> > > but what for. both would be OK with me. Let it be...
> > >
> > > > It may not seem likely at this moment, but it is very likely
> > > > that this will grow and suddenly even very fast and at some
> > > > point others will publish - with my permission - books that
> > > > contain my site and likely other related stuff by me and by
> > > > others. At least I have faith in it and you should, too.
> > > >
> > > > My excuses to anybody who I might have hurt recently, but it
> > > > was not possible otherwise to exit, in my view and feeling.
> > > > Also, I am not all that much related to the images that I did
> > > > evoke recently, it did just fit with the purpose here. In the
> > > > end I am like Hermes, announcing the news, or like Odysseus
> > > > in Kafka's short story, such a fox that I know that I have to
> > > > fool myself if I effectively want to fool anybody else in the
> > > > higher interest of the general public in the long term.
> > > >
> > > > Q: "What about Prague?" (my first query ever to the I Ching)
> > > > A: 64 wei chi ("But if the little fox..."; Saturn end of Psc)
> > >
> > > I don't know. The connection to her is bound to remain, I guess,
> > > "no matter what", at least nothing that I or her can do in any
> > > conscious way, has apparently any impact on the connection just
> > > remaining there, sometimes very strongly (when these things are
> > > concerned), sometimes less. So the only remaining way to proceed
> > > is to leave that as it is and live with it, not letting it stand
> > > in the way of the future.
> > >
> > > > Because he does not strive, nobody finds it possible to strive
> > > > with him (summer of love, 66 tao te ching, nothing in public)
> > >
> > > Come back to me...
> > >
> > > > I did and do look into the mirror and, yes, this end fits.
> > > >
> > > > Too keep off any eventual "bad spirits" or even "spells":
> > > >
> > > > * Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
> > > >
> > > > )o+
> >
> > No, no, no. Not this way. The site of 2007-04-23 22:14 is
> > exactly as I want it to be and remain. If you want to have
> > it your way, become my girlfriend, for real, not virtually.
> > So then I will just feel maybe bad for a while, so what.
> > Better than having again those two ideas about long-range
> > feelings and elementary astrology on my back alone. No,
> > all I want to carry by myself is the main idea on my site
> > now, which is natural and neutral and everybody can link
> > to without fear, because it is not even wrong and should
> > it ever be proven it would be so natural and beautiful
> > that there would be no danger to the world and the people
> > within. No girl, if you want me to carry this, pick up
> > the phone or board a flight... I want a girlfriend who is
> > really around me, somebody I can see and feel and smell.
> >
> > Hence, bye "C.", on to "D."...
> >
> > * Immanuel Kant. Die Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. 1787. *
> >
> > )o+
>
> Pick your favorite ;)
Modified version of "new, evolving web" with odyssey.zip
linked again... Whatever might happen in the future, see
"Organisation" header in this post... If only maybe Uranus
in Pisces* would not make such decisions so painful and
long, but maybe that in the end provides ultimate quality.
Girl, girl, girl... no way to compete with that for me...
Quote: "I love you Alain." (1982 on Casio Calculator...)
)o+
From: alain <alain@wei.chi>
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Space, Time and the 4(+1) Elements
Organization: |:| :|:
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Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 14:52:12 +0200
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Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com sci.physics:931794 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:216715
(Originally posted to alt.philosophy, but, considering that
I am a physicist and consider myself the post below at least
potentially related to physics, I figured that maybe one or
two people here might find the post at least amusing :)
--
Hi there, I am a physicist and as a hobby, I am interested
in philosophy (and other stuff). What follows exposes what I
judge to be a very interesting idea that makes it at least
*plausible* that the four elements, which the ancient Greeks
considered the world to be made of, are not just a cultural
or historical peculiarity, but might have something to do
with the existence of space and time...
Please allow me to elaborate, first by exposing Aristotle's
view of the elements, then with a quick look at Kant's views
of space and time, and then combine the two. Please bear in
mind that I am doing this as a hobby, so don't expect formal
adherence to how things like that are usually brought to
public attention in this post of mine...
Aristotle
In Aristotle's book "De Generatione et Corruptione",
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/AriGeco.html
(and there especially in chapters 2 and 3 of book II),
he describes his view of the four elements Fire, Air, Water
and Earth, as composed of dry/wet and hot/cold:
Fire: dry+hot
Earth: dry+cold
Air: wet+hot
Water: wet+cold
He identifies dry/wet also with hard/soft, brittle/malleable.
Hot/cold is also light/heavy. This leads to a different way
to split properties:
Fire is light, it moves up (it burns wood (Earth) and transforms
it into smoke (Air)), Water flows down (say, as a river or rain).
Earth rests (say, a rock), while Air can also be considered as
resting, if one uses the image of a cloud that remains only a
cloud if there is an active balance between absorbing evaporated
water and letting rain fall down.
So, my take is the following:
Fire: moves [up, actively]
Water: moves [down, passively]
Earth: rests [passively]
Air: rests [active balance]
I also see an additional opposite that can be identified with
dry/wet, namely in/out, for the following reason: Many things,
and especially organic ones, like fruit or people, are wetter
inside than outside.
Kant
In Kant's book "The Critique of Pure Reason", in the early
chapters about space and time, he sort of describes the way a
child who opens its eyes for the first time experiences the
world. First there is the realization that something is seen,
that there is the observing I and an outside world. Kant sees
that already as a form of space, as it separates two things,
in and out. Next the child notices that some things move and
others don't, that there is time. Kant concludes that space
and time are things that exist a priori, independent of what
is in them, and that both are required for thinking.
Aristotle meets Kant
Putting the two together is now, I hope, obvious: The a priori
experience of space, of in and out, relates space strongly to the
opposite in/out, while the a priori experience of time relates
time directly to rest/move. So there are a priori four possible
different states:
out+rest
out+move
in+rest
in+move
Combining Aristotle's view of Fire and Earth being dry and Air
and Water being wet with my view of Fire and Earth being out
and Water and Air being in, the four elements become naturally:
Fire:= out+move
Earth:= out+rest
Water:= in+move
Air:= in+rest
It is important to stress that this might make a formal approach
to the four elements possible. One would start with space and
time, what (according to Kant) is what is minimally necessary
for describing the world, and could then *define* the elements
using the opposites in/out and rest/move, as defined above and
then maybe use formal methods to derive further properties of
the four elements, maybe derive things like wet/dry, hot/cold
or at least identify under which circumstances the identification
could be made...
Finally, something about the "5th Element", inspired also by
Schopenhauer's views on "free will"...
The idea is to define "free will" as what the observing "child"
can influence about the world, how it can influence the four
elements. The influence is, or course, not direct, what one
wishes for the world to be like, usually does not happen that
way, but there is a certain influence, an ability to change
the ways in which the four elements transform into each other.
For people who are interested, I have collected a few links
with earlier texts, some of them also making quite direct links
to western tropical astrology and to the I Ching. As I said, I
am doing this as a hobby, so my style may naturally not appear
very professional (right, hobby, not job (!)) and I admit that
my style of writing is very terse. Anyway, here is the link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/milestones.html
That's it.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
(yearly update is up)
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
. ..'..... ..
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exactphilosophy.net 2009
Tired of the often so boringly stereotypical approach to new ideas
and possibilities in usenet ? Tired to get insulted by people who
you would not honor with a second look in real life ?
Then give this site a try - no, not another "Einstein was wrong!"
web site, but instead some careful considerations by a physicist
about some open possibilities how the world could be. No direct
logical or factual errors allowed, and also a clear "No!" to the
direct logical fallacy of identifying "absence of evidence" with
"evidence of abscence"... You will find no statements on my site
which are in direct contradiction with experimental evidence,*
but a lot of concrete possibilities will open up...
* Nobody is perfect and future experiments might exclude some
possibiliies: So, if you think you found a factual or logical
error, please contact me using the contact info on my web site
and indicate all necessary information to allow me to follow
the argument (including references, if needed).
Don't expect me to read replies here though. ;)
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
From: alain <alain@wei.chi>
Newsgroups: de.alt.astrologie
Subject: Raum, Zeit und die 4(+1) Elemente
Organization: |:| :|:
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Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 14:08:43 +0200
Message-ID: <alain-ED41A5.14084301052005@news.bluewin.ch>
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Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com de.alt.astrologie:91742
Hallo allerseits, Ich bin Physiker und als Hobby interessiere
ich mich für Philosophie und auch Astrologie. Was folgt zeigt
etwas auf, das ich als sehr interessante Idee ansehe, welche
es zumindest *plausibel* macht, dass die vier Elemente, aus
welchen sich die alten Griechen die Welt zusammengesetzt
vorstellten, mehr sind als eine kulturelle oder historische
Besonderheit der Griechen, sondern direkt etwas mit der
Existenz von Raum und Zeit zu tun haben könnten.
Um mich dem anzunhern, werde ich zuerst Aristoteles Sicht der
vier Elemente kurz ausführen, dann einen kurzen Blick auf die
Sicht Kant's von Raum und Zeit werfen, und dann die Beiden
kombinieren. Ich bitte zu beachten, dass ich dies als Hobby
mache, so bitte keine formale Einhaltung erwarten von dem, was
üblich ist, wenn man üblicherweise etwas veröffentlicht...
Aristoteles
In Aristoteles' Buch "De Generatione et Corruptione",
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/AriGeco.html
(und dort v.a. in Kapitel 2 und 3 von Buch II), beschreibt
er seine Sicht der Elemente Feuer, Luft, Wasser und Erde,
als zusammengesetzt aus trocken/feucht und warm/kalt:
Feuer: trocken+warm
Erde: trocken+kalt
Luft: feucht+warm
Wasser: feucht+kalt
Er identifiziert trocken/feucht auch mit hart/weich und mit
brüchig/schmiegsam. Warm/kalt ist auch leicht/schwer. Das führt
zu einer anderen Art, wie die Elemente aufgeteilt werden können:
Feuer ist leicht, es bewegt sich nach oben (es verbrennt Holz (Erde)
und verwandelt es in Rauch (Luft)), Wasser fliesst runter (z.B.
als Fluss oder als Regen). Erde ruht (z.B. ein Felsen), whrend
Luft auch als ruhend betrachtet werden kann, wenn man das Bild
einer Wolke betrachtet, die nur eine Wolke bleibt, wenn sie aktiv
eine Balance aufrechterhlt zwischen Aufnahme von verdunstetem
Wasser und Abgabe von Regen.
Damit ist meine Sicht also die Folgende:
Feuer: bewegt sich [nach oben, aktiv]
Wasser: bewegt sich [nach unten, passiv]
Erde: ruht [passiv]
Luft: ruht [aktive Balance]
Ich sehe noch einen weiteren Gegensatz, der mit trocken/feucht
identifiziert werden kann, nmlich innen/aussen, aus folgendem
Grund: Viele Dinge, und besonders organische, wie Früchte oder
Leute, sind innen feuchter als aussen.
Kant
In Kant's Buch "Die Kritik der reinen Vernunft, in den frühen
Kapiteln über Raum und Zeit, beschreibt er gewissermassen wie
ein Kind, das zum ersten Mal seine Augen öffnet, die Welt sieht.
Zuerst ist da die Wahrnehmung dass etwas gesehen wird, dass es
ein beobachtendes Ich gibt und eine ussere Welt. Kant sieht das
bereits als eine Form von Raum, da zwei Dinge getrennt werden,
innen und aussen. Danach bemerkt das Kind, dass einige Dinge
sich bewegen und andere ruhen, das ist Zeit. Kant schliesst,
dass Raum und Zeit Dinge sind, die a Priori existieren, ganz
unabhngig von dem was in ihnen ist, und dass Beide für das
Denken notwendig sind.
Aristoteles trifft Kant
Die beiden obigen Dinge zusammenfügen ist nun, so hoffe ich,
offensichtlich: Die a Priori Erfahrung von Raum, von innen und
aussen, verbindet Raum stark mit dem Gegensatz innen/aussen,
whrend die a Priori Erfahrung von Zeit direkt mit ruhen/sich
bewegen verbunden ist. Es gibt also a Priori vier verschiedene
mögliche Zustände:
aussen+ruhen
aussen+sich bewegen
innen+ruhen
innen+sich bewegen
Wenn man Aristoteles' Sicht von Feuer und Erde als trocken und
Luft und Wasser als feucht mit meiner Sicht von Feuer und Erde
als aussen und Wasser und Luft als innen verbindet, werden die
vier Elemente ganz natürlich:
Feuer:= aussen+bewegend
Erde:= aussem+ruhend
Wasser:= innen+bewegend
Luft:= innen+ruhend
Es ist wichtig, zu betonen, dass dies eine formale Beschreibung
der vier Elemente möglich machen könnte. Man würde beginnen mit
Raum und Zeit, welche (gemss Kant) das sind, was minimal
benötigt wird, um die Welt zu beschreiben und könnte dann daraus
die Elemente *definieren*, wie oben, durch die Gegenstze
innen/aussen und ruhen/bewegen, und man könnte dann vielleicht
formale Methoden benutzen, um weitere Eigenschaften der Element
herzuleiten, vielleicht Dinge wie trocken/feucht, warm/kalt oder
wenigstens identifizieren unter welchen Umstnden eine solche
Identifikation gemacht werden könnte...
Schliesslich, hier noch etwas über das "5. Element", inspiriert
auch bei Schopenhauer's Ansichten über "freien Willen"...
Die Idee, ist es "freien Willen" als das zu definieren, was das
beobachtende "Kind" in der Welt beeinflussen kann, wie es die
vier Elemente beeinflussen kann. Der Einfluss ist, natürlich,
nicht direkt, was man sich wünscht wie die Welt sein sollte,
trifft normalerweise nicht so ein, aber es gibt einen gewissen
Einfluss, eine Fhigkeit, den Wandel der vier Elemente
ineinander zu beeinflussen.
Für Interessierte, habe ich einige Links auf frühere Texte
gesammelt (fast alle auf Englisch), einige von Ihnen verweisen
auch sehr direkt auf westliche tropische Astrologie und auch
auf das I Ging. Wie gesagt, Ich mache dies als Hobby, daher
kann es gut sein, dass mein Stil naturgemss nicht sehr
professionell erscheinen mag (jawohl, Hobby, nicht Beruf (!))
und ich gebe zu, dass mein Schreibstil sehr knapp ist. Egal,
hier ist der Link:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/milestones.html
Das wr's.
--
If you step into the same river twice,
the waters will be different - Heraclitus
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
What can you find at exactphilosophy.net ?
A quite concrete idea that links the 4+1 classical elements
of the ancient Greeks (Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Ether) to
the immediate perception of space and time, as well as to
issues of free will and destiny, all with explicit relations
to the philosophies of Aristotle and Kant, and with implicit
ones to Plato, Schopenhauer and others. I also present an
explicit idea how the 8 hexagrams of the I Ching might be
related to the 4+1 elements in the West.
I am a Swiss physicist (*1966 in Zurich) and usually update
my site once a year in January, after thinking about these
issues during the year. The contents of my site is purposely
rather minimal and condensed - think maybe Lao Tzu or maybe
Heraclitus - so, like Nietzsche said about the "darkness" of
the works of Heraclitus, this perception might be essentially
due to people reading too quickly what has been written very
slowly and thus not perceiving what is rather clarity...
Anyway, see section "elementary philosophy" with its four
subsections for the stuff mentioned above. Please note that
the other sections, "formal approaches" and "evolutions" are
at the moment essentially empty, yet.
I maintain this site as a hobby, mostly for my personal fun,
so I may not always be as formally complete as I would in a
publication that I would do professionally. I think that does
even add to quality, by omitting some often superfluous text
that is often merely convention and decoration, not content.
What was updated for this year ?
- More quotes from Kant and Aristotle that are directly
related to the new ideas that I present
- Various additional leads
- Subsection "interfaces" is entirely new.
What might appear next year:
- Illustrations for the section "elementary philosophy"
- A formal model of "elementary philosophy", i.e. suitable for
experimental tests of the presented ideas (I am a physicist)
- Material for the other sections that are, yet, empty
Note that instead of browsing the site online, you can also
download it in a ZIP file, which you can find under "Archive".
Due to the experimentally observed almost uniform irrelevance
of replies posted to usenet regarding similar topics, I only
consider replies by e-mail (see my site for e-mail address).
Updates are yearly in January, so stay tuned for next year...
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Guido Stepken schrieb:
> Entstehung von Aberglaube in der modernen Wissensgesellschaft:
>
> http://www.little-idiot.de/teambuilding/EntstehungAberglaubeWissensgesellschaft.pdf
Ich möchte gerne eine kurze Bemerkung machen zum Zitat von Stolzenberg,
das am Anfang des obengenannten Textes zitiert ist:
> "... ein Glaubenssystem ist ein System, in dem alle Akte der Beobachtung und des Urteilens
> ausschließlich von innerhalb des Systems aus erfolgen und in dem alle übrigen Erwägungen
> der Verteidigung des Systems selbst untergeordnet werden. Wenn ein außerhalb des Systems
> stehender Beobachter erkennen kann, daß ein solches System eine unrichtige Glaubensvorstellung
> enthält und das sie außerdem mit den Mitteln des Systems selbst nicht als unrichtig bewiesen
> werden kann, dann kann er sagen, daß dieses System zu einer Falle geworden ist. Der äußere
> Beobachter wird in dieser Situation diejenigen, die sich innerhalb des Systems befinden, als
> Dogmatiker auffassen, während diejenigen, die sich innerhalb des Systems befinden, den
> Beobachter als jemanden auffassen werden, der sich weigert, zu akzeptieren, was "offenkundig
> der Fall ist". Und tatsächlich werden beide Recht haben"
> Zitat des Mathematikers Gabriel Stolzenberg in dem Buch von Paul Watzlawick "Die Erfundene
> Wirklichkeit: Wie wissen wir, was wir zu wissen glauben? Beiträge zum Konstruktivismus" S. 255
Stolzenberg war sich offensichtlich der Arbeiten von Gödel bewusst,
welcher bewies, dass es in jedem formalen System (wie auch die
Mathematik eines ist) Sätze gibt, die wahr oder falsch sein können,
sich aber innerhalb des Systems weder mathematisch beweisen oder
widerlegen lassen, obwohl sie experimentell in einem konkreten Fall
überprüft werden können. Bekanntes Beispiel (von Schrödinger) sind
in der projektiven Geometrie die gleichen Abstände zwischen Geraden
und Punkten bei der 2-dimensionalen Konstruktion. In 2 Dimensionen
lässt sich diese Gleichheit zwar in jedem konkreten Fall direkt
messbar feststellen, aber nicht mathematische beweisen. Das geht
erst aus einer 3-dimensionalen Sichtweise heraus...
Dies legt natürlich nahe, dass Dogmatiker immer unrecht haben, dass
also der letzte Satz im Zitat von Stolzenberg falsch ist. Derjenige
mit mehr Übersicht hätte in jedem Fall eher Recht. Oder ist diese
Sichtweise vielleicht selbst schon wieder zu dogmatisch ?
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
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From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology,de.alt.astrologie,alt.jyotish,sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Month-of-Birth and Person's Lifespan
Date: 15 Jul 2003 22:55:58 -0700
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Bobby Bryant wrote:
> It's not apparent from either of those links that "Early-Life Factors"
> means anything akin to "season-of-birth-effects", though perhaps you have
> the advantage of actually having read the book.
>
> But it's hardly surprising. Lots of diseases are seasonal, and early
> exposure to disease could have a devastating effect on lifespan.
>
> --
> Bobby Bryant
> Austin, Texas
Hi there.
I am a physicist -- about a couple of years ago, I
saw a report on CNN where it was reported that people
born in March are more likely to become schizophrenic
later in life than people born at other times of the
year. I did not follow up, so I do not know whether
that claim was sufficently backed by scientific
evidence or not. But let's assume it was for the
moment.
An astrologer would probably say that this was because
most of the month of March is in the star sign of
Pisces, which is associated also with schizophrenia.
More down to earth, one would probably rather suspect
that at the end of winter the mother is likely a bit
depressed, which might influence the birth experience
of the child sufficiently to lead to problems later
in life.
Now, how could these two hypotheses be distinguished
experimentally ? Well, I suggest to make a study with
two groups of people, one group of people born in
March on the northern hemisphere (and still living
there) and the other group also born in March, but
on the southern hemisphere (where Pisces is still in
March, but the end of winter is in September). Plus
two control groups from each hemisphere.
delphi29@excite.com
--
PS: Since this my first post to most groups here, here
is some information about me: I have proposed a number
of specific hypotheses for testing astrology and also
posted a number of times to different groups, ranging
from astrology to philosophy and physics (mostly to
moderated newsgroups, mostly alt.astrology.moderated,
alt.astrology.tropical and sci.physics.research). Just
search at groups.google.com for "exactphilosophy"...
Ich nehme an, es gibt auch deutschsprachige Nutzer von
Delphi fuer PalmOS... ;)
--
Anybody wants to host Delphi / astrolib for Palm OS ?
For personal reasons, I will no longer be able to host the
astrology application Delphi for PalmOS on my web site, nor
will I be able to host the source code for the astronomical
library astrolib for PalmOS there; termination by the end
of November (of this year, 2006).
If anybody is interested to host these files, please feel
free to do so. Here are the binaries and the essential
information about what they are etc.:
1) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi201.zip
- Contains the most current version of Delphi (2.01) for
PalmOS handhelds; supports Palm OS version 3.5 and later.
- Contains a HTML (web) documentation with lots of screen
shots, and the binaries delphi.prc, astrolib.prc and
mathlib.prc (a mathematical library not written by me,
but required to run Delphi).
- Originally released in May 2002 (Saturn-Pluto opp.)
- For all I know still works on all devices except likely
the most recent ones (PalmOS 5.4.9 and maybe slightly
older versions), namely Palm TX, Zire Z22 and Treo 700p.
This is caused by a bug in PalmOS 5.4.9, more precisely
in the emulation of the previous PalmOS <5 architecture.
- Reportedly works on Windows CE Pocket PC handhelds with
the ca. US$ 50 commercial PalmOS 5.2 emulator called
"Styletap platform" (www.styletap.com).
I cannot confirm this from direct experience, though
(I have not tried, nor do I intend to buy a Pocket PC).
- Delphi 2.01 is currently downloaded between 5 and 10 times
a day from my web site.
- Many people downloading come from freewarepalm.com, namely
from this URL (which also features a description of Delphi
and some user feedback):
http://www.freewarepalm.com/astrology/delphi.shtml
- Also people often come from the following french web page:
http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/palm.htm
- Please note that I no longer own a PalmOS device, nor a
development environment for PalmOS, nor do I have the
source code for Delphi any more (gone since a few years).
- Since the 68k platform that Delphi was written for, does
not exist natively since PalmOS 5 any more, and is since
then emulated, Delphi should (except for bugs, like the
one mentioned above, in the emulation) continue to work
for possibly a long time into the future.
- Many people like Delphi.
2) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/delphi200.zip
- Same as above, except that it is an older version of Delphi
(2.00), with identical features, except that it runs on
earlier PalmOS versions, namely 2.0 to 4.x.
- Probably hardly needed by anybody at this time (people who
have such old devices likely already have Delphi, if they
dig that kind of applications).
3) http://www.exactphilosophy.net/gonebydec/astrolib103.zip
- Source code for astrolib 1.03, an open source library that
calculates planetary positions with an accuracy of the
order of an arc second and calculates time zones based on
unix time zone data, even back to historical dates.
- Contains the C source code, but not a fully buildable
project (used to be CodeWarrior for PalmOS on Mac OS <X).
- Is referenced by the following link:
http://www.palmopensource.com/index.php?category=22
- As far as I know (and I have NOT checked recently), that
unix time zone data is the only source for fully free time
zone calculations worth mentioning.
- The calculations of planetary positions are outdated for
most purposes; today I would use Swiss Ephemeris.
- astrolib is distributed under the LGPL, the Lesser GNU
Public License.
Please note that my web page about Delphi/astrolib,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/delphi.html
will also be gone by the end of November.
I enjoyed writing these programs and providing them to
others and wish everybody good luck - with Delphi/astrolib
and with everything else.
English (Delphi and astrolib):
http://astroblahhh.com/astrology/software/delphi_and_astrolib/index.shtml
Français (Delphi):
http://www.astroguide.net/logiciels/delphi.htm
Thanks! :)
Hi everybody,
I have uploaded a preview version of my web site 2009:
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
What's new:
- subsection "long-range feelings"
Are feelings something that is shared between two or more
people as often implicitly assumed in everyday life, or are
feelings isolated effects in each person's brain, as it is
according to contemporary science ? Astonishingly, telling
the two possibilities experimentally apart might be a lot
harder than it might appear at first. A lot more cool stuff
in that section, see for yourself...
- subsection "interfaces and cylces"
An attempt to derive Aristotle's cycle of the elements from
first principles; fails, but not completely since it leaves
only a small number of simple possibilities open.
- section "Archive"
A collection of links to some of my previous public works,
includiny many related to (Western tropical) astrology, but
there is more, ranging from philosophy to quantum physics
(I am a physicist, by the way...;)
- section "References"
Abstract and link to a paper titled "Bipolar Change" that was
published in the Journal of Chinese Philosophy this year and
which refers to my site and its main new idea.
What's still there:
- section "elementary philosophy" and subsections
A simple model that defines 4 quantities from the immediate
experience of space and time, inspired by Kant's philosophy
and then qualitatively identifies them with the 4 elements
from ancient Greek philosophy, i.e. Fire, Air, Water, Earth.
See for yourself for more details and also the 5th element
and a cross-cultural reference to the 8 trigrams of the
Chinese oracle I Ching (or Yi Jing).
Additionally scheduled for 2009 release (5 January):
- subsection "long-range feelings"
A few refinements and some leads.
- section "elementary philosophy"
Hopefully a few simple and beautiful illustrations to make the
maybe apparently abstract ideas more tangible for most readers.
Likely in the 2010 release:
- subsection "elementary star signs"
A simple model of the 12 star signs of the (Western) zodiac in
terms of transformations between the four elements. See Archive
in the meantime for some older texts that expose this model in
some detail. Despite its simplicity, the model is not simplistic,
it does not only capture basic properties of the star signs, but
can also serve as a very useful guide for deeper analysis, as I
hope to show then...
- subsection "magic carpets"
A collection of concrete contributions to symbolic analysis,
mostly, but not only, around Western tropical astrology. See
Archive in the meantime for many such examples, albeit in a
somewhat less polished form...
Planned further into the future:
- Yearly releases (5 January), plus usually a preview in late
autumn of the previous year
- More illustrations, generally more easily accessible stuff
- Formal attempts to synthesize provable predictions from the
main model under "elementary philosophy
- Whatever might evolve...
What is not planned:
- Any further usenet activities, except something like this
announcement every year (and possibly 1 or 2 related replies)
- No replies to trolls (I am posting this to various newsgroups,
not only moderated ones, and even there I was quite astonished
lately that even at sci.physics.research someone was so scared
angry to mistake absence of evidence with evidence of absence;
what a silly type of idiots: an open issue is simply open -
no less, no more - except for austriches who put their head
into the ground like little children or old men... ;)
Alain Stalder )o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
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exactphilosophy.net 2009
Was ist dieses Jahr neu:
* evolutions => long-range feelings
Wie eine einfache hypthetische Annahme, naemlich dass es eine Art
von unbewusster Kommunikation zwischen Menschen gibt, ein Bild der
Wirklichkeit liefert, welches Astrologie, das Kollektive Unbewusste,
Gott oder Goetter, freien Willen und Schicksal, und viele aehnliche
Phaenomene natuerlich in die wissenschaftliche Weltsicht mit
einschliessen wuerde, und auch erklaeren wuerde, wieso alle Versuche
dies bisher formal zu beweisen im Wesentlichen fehlgeschlagen sind...
* elementary philosophy => space and time
Foto und einfache Illustration der wesentlichen Idee hinzugefuegt.
* evolutions => elemental cycles
Wie Aristoteles' Kreislauf der Elemente natuerlich aus den bisher
(auf meiner Site) praesentierten Ideen wachsen koennte, zumindest
als eine von nur ganz wenigen einfachen Moeglichkeiten.
* evolutions => magic carpets
Eine kleine Sammling von frueheren oeffentlichen Beitraegen, die
meisten im Usenet und mit Bezug zur Astrologie.
* Mehr kleine Aenderungen
Seht selbst, die Website besteht nur aus etwa 15 Seiten oder so,
daher kann man sich einen detaillierten Ueberblick schon in weniger
als 5 Minuten verschaffen...
In der "Queue" fuer naechstes Jahr:
* Mehr Beitraege mit unmittelbarem Bezug zur Astrologie, wie mein
einfaches Modell das Sternzeichen durch Uebergaenge zwischen den
Elementen beschreibt, und mehr originelle Ideen. "Stay tuned..."
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Hi everybody,
There are two new and relatively long articles on my web site.
Actually I only wrote them this and last weekend, i.e. around
that recent eclipse... ;)
- elementary star signs
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/starsigns.html
"Reveals an interesting structure in the signs of the
western zodiac, of which astonishingly nobody is aware."
- magic carpets
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/magic.html
"How logic and association can be used to creatively explore
symbolic systems, like astrology, in a fairly structured and
controlled way. Presents lots of new cool examples, mostly
related to Western tropical astrology, but the method would
be generally useful and could likely be formalized..."
Enjoy,
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
itto wrote:
: hallo alain
:
: i really enjoy(ed) your articles and website, and i'm still reading.
:
: you were wondering about the meaning of this 7x7=49 in chinese
: history.
: well, in "traditional chinese medicine" there are 12 somethings plus
: 49 somthing elses.
: in german these are called:
: 12 Meridiane
: and
: 49 große und kleine Leitbahnen
:
: ex
: http://209.85.135.132/search?q=3Dcache:aSZ4gW6_or8J:www.tcm-germany.de/Allg=
: emeines/Grundlagen.html+49+leitbahnen
+tcm&cd=3D9&hl=3Dde&ct=3Dclnk&gl=3Dde&=
: lr=3Dlang_de|lang_en
:
: on the bottom of this following wikipedia-website you find some
links
: to english websites on this topic, search for 49 and 12...:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine
:
: 49 is also supposed to be called the age when women are on the end
of
: reproduction and raising their own children.
:
: furthermore look on the number 49 in the i ching, it is the change
of
: the direction, the revolution, revolutionary change, and: fire over
: water, which is interessting, if considered that the evolutionary
: direction would be from bottom to top... compared to "your"
: transformation of fire...
:
:
: wish u all the....whatever ;-)
Thanks a lot for the feedback :)
Looks like there are more associations Chinese-49 on German language
websites than on english speaking ones...
Here's what I found...
http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/translations/flusskarte.htm
* Was nun die Körper-Seele angeht, so braucht sie die Lebendigkeit
* der Blutenergie, um sich unter dem Einfluss der Metallenergie zu
* verdichten und fest zu werden. 49 Tage nach der Geburt ist sie
* erst vollendet; 49 Tage nach dem Tod ist sie erst ganz verlöscht.
* Die allgemein verbreitete Sitte, was Verstorbene angeht, einen
* Zeitraum von 49 Tagen abzuwarten, ist genau deswegen. Die Wander-
* Seele als Ding an sich ist ständig am Umherziehen, ohne festen
* Platz. Sie verlässt diesen Ort und begibt sich an jenen; verlässt
* jenen Ort und kommt an diesen: ein ewiges Kreisen, von Zeitalter
* zu Zeitalter, ohne kaputtzugehen. Die Körper-Seele jedoch folgt
* dem Leib und ist, oder ist nicht vorhanden.
*
* Der unterscheidende Geist kommt auch (erst später), obwohl er unter
* dem Einfluss der Feuerenergie entsteht, aus der Geistseele hervor.
* [...]
Quoting from the first of your links,
http://www.tcm-germany.de/Allgemeines/Grundlagen.html
* Neben diesen 12 Meridianen gibt es noch weitere 49 Gefäße, große
* und kleine Leitbahnen die alles miteinander verbinden. Die
* Akupunkturpunkte liegen auf diesen Bahnen und durch Stimulierung
* dieser Punkte wird Einflußauf das körperliche, geistige und
* seelische Befinden genommen (siehe Akupunktur). Qi, Blut-Säfte,
* Substanz und Wärme die "vier Säulen" des Körpers können
* ausgeglichen werden.
And a bit further below, regarding the number 7:
* [...] die durch die 7 Emotionen (Qi qing) entstehen:
* * Ärger/Zorn,
* * Freude,
* * Grübeln,
* * Besorgnis,
* * Trauer,
* * Angst,
* * Schrecken/Schock
There are some links to a "49'er Leitbahnen Bewegungs Qi Gong",
http://www.taichi-qigong-schule.de/taichiqigonglernen/02b15f98530e0a425/index.html
* Abschnitt: Öffnung
* 1. Den Mond umarmen
* [...]
* Abschnitt: Den Umlauf anregen
* 11. Frühlingswind in Weidenbäumen
* [...]
* Abschnitt: Qi führen
* 23. Der Sagenvogel massiert seinen Kropf
* [...]
* Abschnitt: Sammlung
* 42. Zhu Ge spielt das Instrument
* [...]
* Abschlussübung
* Der rote Drache spielt im Meer
* Das Gesicht waschen und den Kopf kämmen
The number seven in Chinese is apparently "qi":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture
According to "Daoyin und seine Entwicklungsgeschichte",
http://www.dyysg.de/Information_about_DYYSG.pdf, it appears
that these 49 Qigong movements are a quite recent idea:
* Prof. Zhang erkrankte 1972 an Bluthochdruck, Leberentzündung,
* Störungen des Verdauungs- und Herz- Kreislaufsystems und hatte
* zuwenig Blutplättchen. [...] In dieser Situation begann Prof.
* Zhang, die klassischen Schriften des Daoyin und der Schule der
* Langlebigkeit zu studieren und entwickelte auf der Basis der
* TCM die ersten Übungen, um seine Erkrankungen zu behandeln.
* Die „Acht Übungen gegen Tuberkulose“ waren die ersten
* Bewegungen des Systems und gleichzeitig die Grundlage für die
* Entwicklung der „49 Bewegungen des Leitbahnen-Qigong“.
This leads to the Tao Yin...
English Wikipedia entry for the Tao Yin,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_yin
* Tao Yin is a series of breathing exercises practiced by Taoists
* to cultivate ch'i or internal energy of the body based upon the
* principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine. The practice of Tao
* Yin was an ancient precursor of qigong, and was practised in
* Chinese Taoist monasteries for health and spiritual cultivation.
* Attested from at least 500 BC. Tao Yin is also said to be (along
* with Shaolin Ch'uan) a primary formative ingredient in the well-
* known soft style Chinese martial art T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
*
* The effects of Tao Yin
*
* A typical Tao Yin exercise will involve movement of the arms and
* body in time with controlled inhalation and exhalation. Each
* exercise is designed with a different goal in mind, for example:
* calmative effects or expanded lung capacity.
*
* "Some of the exercises act as a means of sedating, some as a
* stimulant and a tonic, whilst others help in the activation,
* harnessing and cultivation of internal Ch'i energy and the
* external Li life force. Through the excellent health that is
* gained thereby, they all assist in the opening up of the whole
* body, enhance the functioning of the autonomic nervous system,
* increase the mental capacity of the brain, give greater mind
* control, increase perception and intuition, uplift moral
* standards, and give tranquillity to the mind, which in turn
* confers inner harmony and greater happiness. As time goes by,
* these exercises slowly open up the functional and control
* channels that feed and activate the energy, nervous and psychic
* centres, enabling the individual to have a deeper understanding,
* consciousness and awareness of the spiritual world."
No direct mention of 7 or 49 that I could find in relation to the
Tao Yin, but feels like a possible ancient origin to me...
Getting the body (earth) into movement (fire) leading to higher
consciousness (air).
By the way, this usegroup's birth chart has lots of planets in
signs ruled by Saturn, the 7th planet, and, of course, all 3
German Reichs had the sun in either Capricorn or Aquarius.
So probably a good place for exploring 7 x 7, and a good time,
with the n. node almost precisely in the middle of these two
star signs, I guess ... ;)
Thanks again,
)o+
itto schrieb:
: ***************** *************** *************
: ****** *** *
:
: hi alain!
:
: well, i too saw the english-german difference in the meridian-topic
-
: and the stuff on number 7.
:
: "
: die 6 bioklimatischen Energien (liu jin)
:
: * Wind,
: * Kälte,
: * Feuchtigkeit,
: * Trockenheit,
: * Hitze und
: * Sommerhitze
:
: sind solche die durch die 7 Emotionen (Qi qing) entstehen:
:
: * Ärger/Zorn,
: * Freude,
: * Grübeln,
: * Besorgnis,
: * Trauer,
: * Angst,
: * Schrecken/Schock
: "
: i ´d appreciate it if you´d like to do some translationwork....how
do
: those 6 and those 7 fit to your transformations-system? besorgnis
: (=concern, anxienty, uneasyness) leads to trockenheit (=dryness,
: drought), and people who do that i´d think get more often stones in
: the inner organs, which are i suppose earth-energy, stabilisation,
: solidification...
:
: if you want me to i can translate this 2 lists into english - but,
by
: the way, do you speak german? seams like...
:
: T'ai Chi Ch'uan
: i think thats what a 20 year old nephew of my girlfriend does. it´s
: not very much movement on the outside - it´s very much on
: concentrating energy/chi in curtain parts of the body, and much
: muscletraining without any movement...very good, i think...it´s aim
is
: awareness and the right action without even thinking...consciousness
: at work...
:
: "
: By the way, this usegroup's birth chart has lots of planets in
: signs ruled by Saturn, the 7th planet
: "
: oh, my sun is conjunct to saturn :~) but not in 7, in 8 ;-)
: can you please give me the data for that chart? german astrology
: forums, and i guess newsgroups too, are in rough water since 3 or 4
: years...something ending...nothing new emerging...waiting on some
new
: lifely aera...so, this chart is interesting...
:
: another approach to 49:
:
: 245 = 49*5
: the round-trip time of pluto and the new found plutino named "orcus"
: are:
:
: 247.7 for pluto
: 246.8 for orcus
: ~~~
: 360\5 =72
: which tells that pluto and orcus cross 72 degrees in 49 years - we
: call this aspect quintile
: read this and keep in mind we are talking about pluto and orcus...:
: http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Quintile
: "
: The quintile points to talents and potential...
: ...
: The astrologer Michael Roscher writes: "Quintiles are similar to
: trines with the difference that there is a greater emphasis on
: creativity. Where planets are in quintile aspect there is the desire
: and ability to find creative and artistic solutions to overcome the
: existing status quo. ...
: "
: the german version :
: http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/de/Quintil
:
: so in 49 years we have a quintil of pluto to the pluto before 49
: years:
: the transformation of transformation!?
:
: sounds very much like what you do...lol
:
: ...
:
: i want to read your writings on the astrology-stuff and downloaded
all
: your version-files 2008,2007...
: what version of your website shall i read for that? what do u
: recommend?
:
: all the best and even more
Hallo itto,
Was lesen:
- Weitaus am meisten Material hat es in der neusten Version,
ich habe gerade gestern die 8 Artikel unter "science
revisited" geschrieben; als nächsten werden Artikel über
einzelne Themen aus der Astrologie folgen unter "astro
articles", kann aber nicht genau sagen wann,
vorausssichtlich innerhalb von weniger als einem Jahr...
- Was davon in der nächsten Zeit am ehesten Mainstream werden
wird, ist ganz klar "elementary star signs". Ich hatte das
übrigens auch mit ein paar Zeichnungen Anfang 2005 auf
astrologix.de schon mal ein bisschen zugänglicher als in
den ursprünglichen Dokumenten publiziert - kurz darauf ist
Thomas Klamm der Server abgestürzt und alle Daten aus dem
Zeitraum sind verloren gegangen - war da wohl noch zu früh.
In jedem Fall, sollten Schulkinder in 100 Jahren oder so
in der Schule irgendwas über Astrologie lernen, würden sie
aller Voraussicht nach mit den elementaren Sternzeichen
beginnen... ;)
- Die generelle Weltsicht aus "long-range feelings" bietet
sich in irgendeiner Variante mit "kollektivem Feedback" an
als neues Weltbild, in dem Wissenschaft und Astrologie und
anderes für die meisten Leute vereinbar sind.
- Was auf lange Sicht meiner Meinung nach übrigbleiben wird,
ist die Idee die 4+1 Elemente durch innen/aussen und
ruhe/bewegung und ihre Umwandlungen zu definieren, und
wahrscheinlich auch ein wenig die Geschichte darumherum.
- In der Hinsicht, ist das was ich kürzlich geschrieben habe
("elementary star signs", "magic carpets") zuallererst
einmal Werbung, damit das was vermutlich wirklich zählt
am Ende nicht unbeachtet bleibt.
Ist natürlich nur meine ganz persönliche Sicht. ;)
- 42: 6 Achsen + 7 Planeten; HHGTTG; Waage 6. Zeichen
<=> 6. Planet Jupiter, Chancen nutzen / etwas wagen,
Sextile; Waage <=> Saturn erhöht, Punkt auf dem der
Balken der Waagschalen angebracht ist, Härte
- de.alt.astrologie:
http://www.astrologix.de/daa-ref/daa-faq.htm
: [...] i guess newsgroups too, are in rough water since 3 or 4
: years...something ending...nothing new emerging...waiting on some
new
: lifely aera...so, this chart is interesting...
Zwischen 2002 und 2008 habe ich recht oft im Usenet gepostet.
Ich vermute mit Uranus im Widder und auch mit Saturn in
Quadrat zu Pluto wird sich da schon bald wieder mehr tun,
vielleicht aber auch nicht im Usenet selbst, ich bin selten
schlecht mit konkreten astrologischen Vorhersagen...
Mit Pluto nicht mehr im Schützen, liegt den meisten Leuten
der Sinn vielleicht generell nicht mehr so sehr nach Usenet
und ähnlichen Foren.
Usenet selbst wurde Ende 1979, Herbst oder Anfang Winter
gegründet, ich vermute wegen "Godwin's Law" vielleicht mit
einer Sonne-Neptun Konjunktion, wie Godwin selbst, und ich
vermute mit der Sonne im Schützen. Usenet hat die Tendenz
einen auszusaugen, wenigstens ist für mich so - in der Zeit
in der ich das hier geschrieben habe, hätte ich was eher
bleibendes für meine Website schreiben können...
Aber zum Glück gibt es ja dank Godwin's Law einen Trick um
die Assoziationen abzubrechen, um den Thread zu beenden
(war interessant, aber jetzt möchte ich nicht mehr), man
muss einfach Hitler erwähnen...
C.G. Jung schreibt in Aion:
* Nach der mittelalterlichen Tradition sollen die Religion
* der Juden in einer Konjunktion von Jupiter und mit Saturn,
* der Isam in Jupiter konj. Venus, das Christentum in
* Jupiter konj. Merkur und der Antichrist in Jupiter konj.
* Mond ihren Ursprung haben.
Hitler hatte letzteres (ebenso George W. Bush).
Mehr Details (auf Englisch):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.tropical/msg/e88273cfb800e07e?dmode=source
)o+
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
PS: I have added the following lead at the end of the
magic carpets subsection:
"The 7 x 7 matrix in ancient China may be related to Tao Yin,
an ancient form of physical and breathing exercises intended
to achieve spiritual effects; thus body (earth) gets into out-
ward motion (fire), leading to more air. Tao Yin is the pre-
cursor of Qigong and T'ai Chi. The _qi_ in Qigong, the energy
flow through the body, is apparently also similar to how the
number 7 is pronounced in Chinese. Thanks to usenet poster
itto for providing initial leads related to Chinese medicine."
Thanks again,
)o+
Ingrid Liebeler schrieb (im Zusammenhang mit Physikern,
und im speziellen der Quantenmechanik):
: Im grunde wissen die doch NICHTS, gar NICHTS.
: Tun aber so, als wüßten sie, worüber sie reden ...
Das ist leider schon oft so, und sich sage das als Physiker.
Ein Fehler, der generell oft im Verhältnis zur Welt und zur
Natur gemacht wird, öfter von Spezialisten, ob Wissenschaftler
oder auch einigermassen berühmte Astrologen, ist dass sie,
weil sie schon so viel gesehen und gelernt haben, beginnen die
Theorien über die Natur mit der Natur selbst zu *verwechseln*.
Neue Ideen werden darauf aufbauend verworfen nur weil sie den
gegenwärtigen *Vorstellungen* über die Welt nicht entsprechen.
In der Geschichte ist häufig passiert.
: Und setzen ALLES auf's Spiel ... ALLES! Das ganze Leben auf
: der Erde.
Ich nehme an, das bezieht sichauf die Versuche im CERN.
Da kann ich wirklich beruhigen. In der kosmischen Strahlung
hat es andauernd Teilchen mit *VIEL* höherer Energie als das
CERN zu erzeugen vermag. Wenn es bei solchen Prozessen zu
schwarzen Löchern oder sonstwas gefährlichem können könnte,
wären wir schon alle verschluckt. Klar gibt es immer ein wenn
auch noch so kleines Restrisiko, kann ja auch sein, dass wenn
ich heute morgen meine Hand auf die Türklinke lege, dann die
ganze Stadt versinkt, in dem Sinne setzt jeder jederzeit
alles auf's Spiel - mit einer gewissen Wahrscheinlichkeit...
Die Endzeitphantasien und Todeswünsche der letzten Zeit haben
für mich v.a. etwas mit Uranus in den Fischen zu tun. Die
momentane Wirtschaftskrise, die erst als die Schlimmste seit
1929 prophezeit wurde, hat schon in ein paar Ländern recht
stark eingeschlagen, aber blieb in vieler Hinsicht hinter den
Endzeitphantasien zurück. Ähnlich die Schweinegrippe (auch
wenn ich hier verstehe, dass man auch vorsichtig ist) oder
auch Filme wie 2012 wo alles versinkt. (Hat natürlich sicher
alles auch noch andere astrologische Aspekte, wie immer.)
Hilft vielleicht auch sich bewusst zu sein, dass es in den
Fischen eben zwei Fische hat: Die Mutter, das Meer, das aus
dem Vermischen aller *Einflüsse*, der Flüsse die ins Meer
fliessen, entstanden ist, die zerstörerische Ader der Fische,
wie auch in der Mythologie um Dyonisus herum, auch als
Notwendigkeit und Vorbereitung für den Erlöser. Die Mutter
ist in der Konstellation Fische der waagrechte Fisch, der
Sohn ist der senkrechte Fisch.
Im astrologischen Zeitalter der Fische war die Zeit des
Sohnes so etwa maximal um 400 nach Christus, der grösste
Teil nachher war beim liegenden Fisch, der Mutter. Also
grob die Zeit seit Christi Geburt bis Konstantin und bis
die Religion im Konzil dogmatisch festgelegt wurde, ist
eher dem Sohn zuzuordnen, das danach eher der Mutter.
Alrisha, der "Knoten", Alpha-Pisces, der Stern der die
beiden Fische verbindet wie eine Nabelschnur, war wenn
ich mich recht erinnere um etwa 80 vor Christus als
erster Stern der Konstllation aufsteigend im Sinne der
Astrologischen Zeitalter.
Siehe dazu auch den Artikel "The Age and Constellation of
Pisces" von Robert Hand, in "Essays on Astrology" (Schiffer
Publishing 1982), mit mehr historischen Details.
Da Zeitalter rückwärts laufen, könnte man den Sohn in etwa
den letzen 5 Grad der Fische zuordnen, 25-30, auch wenn das
in gewisser Weise ein wenig sideral mit tropisch vermischt.
D.h. sobald Uranus es jetzt wieder über 25 Fische heraus
macht, könnte es schon ein wenig Frühling werden...
Mal schauen :)
)o+
On Dec 19, 10:35 am, Ingrid Liebeler <Astro-Liebeler@t-online.de>
wrote:
> ... war ein Steinbock und hatte Sonne, Merkur und Mars
> im 2. Haus, welches/was für Geld, Gut und Haben steht,
> den Habitus, durchaus auch den geistigen.
> Er hatte dieses Zweifamilienwohn- und Geschäftshaus
> gebaut (geplant und bauen lassen).
> Er hat gut für uns gesorgt und zu Lebzeiten noch eine
> Lebensversicherung für mich abgeschlossen, weil ich
> einmal keine Rente bekomme.
> Seine Tochter hat es nicht nötig, auf den Strich oder
> putzen zu gehen. Weiß Gott nicht.
> Seit 1948 war er freischaffend bis zum Ruhestand 1977.
> Mein Bruder ist freischaffend, und ich bin es auch.
> Wir leben alle im Eigenheim mit Garten, den wir selbst
> bestellen. Die Gärten befinden sich beide direkt am/beim
> Haus.
> Wir genießen auch einen guten Ruf hier. Dafür hatte mein
> Vater auch gesorgt. Und ich will ihn - den guten Ruf - wie
> auch unseren Namen nicht beschmutzen. Es ist (war)
> schlimm genug, was da in diesem Jahr über's Usenet
> dank Denise Schon geredet worden ist.
> Sehr schlimm - auch für meine Bekannten.
> Sehr schlimm. Das hat er nicht verdient.
> Er ist ein guter Mensch.
>
> Ingrid Liebeler
>
> _
In dem Sinne hätte mir eine zusätzliche moderierte Usenet
Gruppe zu Astrologie nicht schlecht gefallen, hat etwas wie
ein virtuelles Haus mit Garten und einer Umegebung dazu,
die etwas geschützt ist. Klar kann es an den Details scheitern,
aber mir wäre sowas schon lieb gewesen, die "privaten" Foren
wie astrologix und astrodienst schienen mir trotz allem guten
Willen in einer Weise weniger frei als die moderierten
Astrologie Newsgroups auf englisch, die ich gut kenne...
Ich bin noch zwei Antworten "schuldig" (Merkur ist seit
kurzem rückläufig...):
CERN: Ich habe die Argumente des Physikers (Sorry
den Namen nicht mehr präsent) gelesen, sowie die
Zusammenfassung des Sicherheitsberichts vom CERN,
der auch darauf eingeht. Bei kosmologischer Strahlung
trifft ein sehr hoch energisches Teilchen auf Teilchen in
oder um die Erde, die im Vergleich zur Erde praktisch
ruhen. Wenn so ein Schwarzes Loch entsteht, dann ist
es sehr schnell, fliegt also auf jedem Fall schadlos von
der Erde weg. Beim CERN treffen zwei Teilchenstrahlen
mit gleicher Energie aufeinander, ein Schwarzes Loch,
falls es entstehen würde, könnte also im Vergleich zur
Erde ruhen und hätte viel Zeit um die Erde zu schlucken,
falls es denn nicht wie erwartet schnell zerfallen würde
und schneller wachsen würde als man das normalerweise
in den Modellen erwarten würde. Im Bericht hat es aber
noch ein indirektes Argument das dieses Szenario in
meiner Sicht fast sicher ausschliesst: In Neutronen-
sternen wird selbst kosmische Strahlung abgebremst,
wenn es da gefährliche Schwarze Löcher hätten, würde
man kaum Neutronensterne beobachten... Ich zumindest
bin so ganz beruhigt, auch da der Strahl im CERN ja
doch schon recht "hochgefahren" wurde...
Und nein, ich bin nicht Alois Treindl, bin jünger (1966)
und in der Schweiz geboren. Hatte Alois Treindl mal
getroffen (2005) und habe gemischte Gefühle gegen-
über Alois Treindl, Liz Greene und Robert Hand. Die
Leute haben sicher sehr gute Dinge gemacht für die
Öffentlichkeit (gerade Services von astro.com nutze
ich recht häufig), sind aber in einer Weise schon recht
arrogant und einseitig geworden, die für zukünftige
Enwicklungen nicht immer gesund war... Aber was
soll's, die werden sich nie und nimmer ändern ganz
egal was ich oder sonst wer je sagen oder tun könnte,
in dem Sinne fände ich es besser die alten und schon
praktisch pensionierten "Geister" einfach beiseite
ruhen zu lassen und ihnen für ihre Beiträge zu danken.
Sorry, sollte ich auf eine Antwort erst viel später
antworten, ich kann im Moment aus gesundheitlichen
Gründen nur wenig schreiben/tippen... :(
Alles Gute in jedem Fall,
)o+
--
Mein Google Profile mit Geburtshorosokop und vielen
Bildern und Links:
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Dec 26, 9:35 pm, "Silveen" <Stargazer-Silveen@t-online.de> wrote:
> "Hermes" <astalder25@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:26bcc680-6e78-4e13-9c99-9d2675864adc@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sorry, sollte ich auf eine Antwort erst viel später
> antworten, ich kann im Moment aus gesundheitlichen
> Gründen nur wenig schreiben/tippen... :(
>
> Alles Gute in jedem Fall,
>
> )o+
>
> Hallo Alain Stalder:
>
> Somit sind herzliche Wünsche für ein
> Gesundes und Glückliches Neues Jahr
> mit recht viel Erfolg in allen erwünschten
> Kategoriern angebracht.
> Gute Erholung.
Danke! :)
>
> Take care and
> be well,
> IRH/Silveen
>
> --
> Mein Google Profile mit Geburtshorosokop und vielen
> Bildern und Links:http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Dec 26, 5:51 pm, "Martin Froschauer" <wobora@discardmail.de> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> >> _
>
> > In dem Sinne hätte mir eine zusätzliche moderierte Usenet
> > Gruppe zu Astrologie nicht schlecht gefallen, hat etwas wie
>
> in dem Sinne das der Schmarrn von IL herausgefiltert wird? Eine
> zusaetzliche moderierte Astrologen-ng bedarf es nicht.
>
> Kannst du keinen Filter bedienen?
>
> bye Maddin
Wenn es eine zusätzliche mod. Astro Newsgroup nicht "braucht"
und - da du sie ja anscheinend rausfilterst - es eine Ingrid Liebeler
auch nicht "braucht", was würde dich dann eine zus. mod. Astro
Newsgroup stören - du könntest sie ja dann *genauso* rausfiltern,
sprich einfach nicht lesen ?
Was "braucht" es denn schon wirklich im Leben um zu überleben,
ein bisschen Luft, Wasser, ein wenig zu Essen, Kleider oder eine
gewisse Mindestumgebungstemperatur. Der Rest ist in dem
Sinne schon Luxus. Kommt mir schon sehr deutsch vor... ;)
Dass es etwas nicht "braucht", ist doch nicht wirklich ein Grund
sich etwas nicht zu wünschen oder etwas nicht zu mögen.
)o+
On Dec 27, 10:12 am, Harun al Rashid <Rashid@baghdad.invalid> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> > CERN: Ich habe die Argumente des Physikers (Sorry
> > den Namen nicht mehr präsent) gelesen, sowie die
> > Zusammenfassung des Sicherheitsberichts vom CERN,
> > der auch darauf eingeht. Bei kosmologischer Strahlung
> > trifft ein sehr hoch energisches Teilchen auf Teilchen in
> > oder um die Erde, die im Vergleich zur Erde praktisch
> > ruhen. Wenn so ein Schwarzes Loch entsteht, dann ist
> > es sehr schnell, fliegt also auf jedem Fall schadlos von
> > der Erde weg. Beim CERN treffen zwei Teilchenstrahlen
> > mit gleicher Energie aufeinander, ein Schwarzes Loch,
> > falls es entstehen würde, könnte also im Vergleich zur
> > Erde ruhen und hätte viel Zeit um die Erde zu schlucken,
> > falls es denn nicht wie erwartet schnell zerfallen würde
> > und schneller wachsen würde als man das normalerweise
> > in den Modellen erwarten würde. Im Bericht hat es aber
> > noch ein indirektes Argument das dieses Szenario in
> > meiner Sicht fast sicher ausschliesst: In Neutronen-
> > sternen wird selbst kosmische Strahlung abgebremst,
> > wenn es da gefährliche Schwarze Löcher hätten, würde
> > man kaum Neutronensterne beobachten... Ich zumindest
> > bin so ganz beruhigt, auch da der Strahl im CERN ja
> > doch schon recht "hochgefahren" wurde...
>
> Wie kommst Du darauf, dass ein aus dem Zusammenprall kosmologischer Teilchen
> mit solchen um die Erde herum entstehendes schwarzes Loch notwendigerweise
> von der Erde weg fliegen würde?
> Falls die Teilchen nicht elastisch voneinander abprallen, sondern
> verschmelzen, dann werden sie so Pi mal Daumen in der Richtung des
> kosmischen Teilchens weiter fliegen, da das ja den wesentlich höheren
> Energieanteil liefert.
> Da sich dieses kosmische Teilchen aber auf die Erde zu bewegt hat, sonst
> hätte es ja kein erdnahes Teilchen treffen können, ist die Chance groß. dass
> es sich zumindest in die Atmosphäre bewegt, wenn nicht sogar direkt auf die
> Erde zu. Jeder weitere Zusammenprall des neuen Teilchens mit einem Teilchen
> aus der Atmosphäre bremst es natürlich noch mehr ab.
> Ich denke, dass alles, was in CERN erzeugt werden könnte, von der Natur seit
> Urzeiten in großen Mengen auf die Erde herabregnet, so gefährlich kann das
> also nicht sein.
Meinte mit "von der Erde weg" genauer durch sie hindurch, aber nach
nochmals einem kurzen Blick auf die Zusammenfassung des CERN
Sicherheitsberichts, muss man hier zwischen geladenen und neutralen
Schwarzen Löchern unterscheiden:
http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-de.pdf
"Obwohl stabile, mikroskopische Schwarze Löcher von keiner
Theorie vorausgesagt werden, sind sie ebenfalls Gegenstand der
LSAG-Studie. Wenn stabile Schwarze Löcher durch kosmische
Strahlung erzeugt würden, wären sie gleichermaßen ungefährlich.
LHCKollisionen unterscheiden sich von Wechselwirkungen
kosmischer Strahlung mit astronomischen Objekten jedoch dadurch,
dass sich neue Teilchen am LHC im Allgemeinen langsamer
fortbewegen. Stabile Schwarze Löcher könnten entweder elektrisch
geladen oder neutral sein. Wären sie geladen, würden sie mit
gewöhnlicher Materie in Wechselwirkung treten und von der Erde
gestoppt, unabhängig davon, ob sie aus kosmischer Strahlung
kommen oder vom LHC. Die bloße Existenz der Erde schließt diese
Möglichkeit für kosmische Strahlung und damit auch für den LHC
aus. Stabile mikroskopische Schwarze Löcher ohne elektrische
Ladung würden nur sehr schwach mit der Erde wechselwirken. Wenn
sie von kosmischer Strahlung erzeugt werden, würden sie die Erde
durchqueren und wieder im Weltall verschwinden, ohne Spuren zu
hinterlassen. Im Gegensatz dazu könnten am LHC erzeugte Schwarze
Löcher auf der Erde verbleiben. Im Universum existieren jedoch
erheblich größere und dichtere astronomische Körper als die
Erde: in Neutronensternen und Weißen Zwergen würden auch
neutrale Schwarze Löcher aus dem Aufschlag kosmischer Strahlung
zum Stillstand kommen. Die Tatsache, dass diese massiven Objekte
immer noch existieren, schließt deshalb – genau wie die Existenz
der Erde – die Erzeugung gefährlicher Schwarzer Löcher am LHC
aus."
Und tschüss,
)o+
On Dec 27, 2:16 pm, "Martin Froschauer" <wobora@discardmail.de> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> > Wenn es eine zusätzliche mod. Astro Newsgroup nicht "braucht"
> > und - da du sie ja anscheinend rausfilterst - es eine Ingrid Liebeler
> > auch nicht "braucht", was würde dich dann eine zus. mod. Astro
> > Newsgroup stören - du könntest sie ja dann *genauso* rausfiltern,
> > sprich einfach nicht lesen ?
>
> darueber wurde wurde in epischer Breite in dang diskutiert. Meine
> meinung zu dem Thema duerfte auch sonnenklar sein. Da die Diskussion
> abgeschlossen und der unselige CfV abgebrochen wurde, sollte man die
> Diskussion hier beenden.
>
> Sie bringt nichts. Es wird keine Astrologenkuschelgruppe im deutschen
> Usenet geben. Entweder Filter oder Foren.
>
> bye Maddin
.
On Dec 27, 9:18 pm, "Martin Froschauer" <wobora@discardmail.de> wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> [fullquote]
>
> hmm was das bringen soll, erschliesst sich nur einem Sterndeuter, und
> solche die es werden wollen*vbg*
>
> bye Maddin
Arschloch.
On Dec 27, 9:47 am, Ingrid Liebeler <Astro-Liebeler@t-online.de>
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 07:05:36 -0800 (PST), Hermes
>
> <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In dem Sinne hätte mir eine zusätzliche moderierte Usenet
> >Gruppe zu Astrologie nicht schlecht gefallen, hat etwas wie
> >ein virtuelles Haus mit Garten und einer Umegebung dazu,
> >die etwas geschützt ist.
>
> Was schützt uns im Leben? Gibt es überhaupt irgendeinen
> Schutz?
>
> Der Glaube kann uns (be)schützen, innere Sicherheit geben,
> Geborgenheit. Er kann uns tragen.
>
> Aber sonst?
>
> Gibt es einen wirklichen Schutz im Leben?
>
> Mein Vater war immer ein Fels in der Brandung.
> Diesen Fels habe ich 2005 verloren und stehe seither
> schutzlos und allein im Leben. Zumindest kommt mir das
> manchmal (zuweilen) so vor.
>
> Ingrid
Ich wünsche auch herzlich alles Gute für's neue Jahr!
Mehr lässt sich wohl im Moment wirklich nicht machen.
Viele Grüsse,
)o+
On Dec 28, 12:16 am, "Martin Froschauer" <wobora@discardmail.de>
wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
> > Arschloch.
>
> das Sternzeichen kenne ich gar nicht. Ist es in der aeussersten
> Galaxis? Hat es die Charaktereigenschaften des Goetterboten?
>
> Versteckt sich gern hinter Pseudonymen und sondert gerne uebelriechende
> heisse Luft ab. Was ist, wenn der Stern Arschloch in Konjucation mit
> Pluto steht? Kommen dann lauter furzende Plutokarmisten raus*LOL*
>
> es ist immer wieder schoen die Ausdrucksweise der Astrologen zu lesen.
> Wenn sie nicht weiterkommen, werden sie ausfallend. Einer moderierten
> ng wuerden in erster Linie Astrologen zum Opfer fallen*vbg*. Dann
> schreiben sie noch unter Pseudonnym. Genau das was den Kritikern immer
> gegenstandslos vorgeworfen wird.
>
> Hab ich die Vollquote ohne Kommentar vom Stapel gelassen, oder der
> angebliche Goetterbote? Wenn der Paketdienst genauso zuverlaessig
> arbeiten wuerde, wie der Pseudonamensvetter im usenet agiert, dann
> wuerde wirklich in den Sternen stehen, wann ein Paket ankommt*g*
>
> Und so jemand moechte eine moderierte ng *Kopfschuettel*.
> Wahrscheinlich um den Leser vor ihn selbst zu schuetzen.
q.e.d.
On Dec 28, 10:16 am, "Martin Froschauer" <wobora@discardmail.de>
wrote:
> Hermes wrote:
>
> [Fullquote entsorgt]
>
> http://learn.to/quote
>
> Punkt 2.1 waere fuer dich relevant.
Ich wünsche no es guets Neus! :)
On Dec 28, 12:08 pm, "Silveen" <Stargazer-Silveen@t-online.de> wrote:
> "Hermes" <astalder25@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:336bf008-2b67-476d-a63f-01ad21e1f8d4@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Dec 27, 9:18 pm, "Martin Froschauer" <wobora@discardmail.de> wrote:
> >> Hermes wrote:
>
> >> [fullquote]
>
> >> hmm was das bringen soll, erschliesst sich nur einem Sterndeuter, und
> >> solche die es werden wollen*vbg*
>
> >> bye Maddin
>
> > Arschloch.
>
> Na !! - Hermes !! ;-)
:)
On Dec 30, 12:41 am, "Silveen" <Stargazer-Silveen@t-online.de> wrote:
> "Ingrid Liebeler" <Astro-Liebeler@t-online.de> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:a0hjj5te7vj1b7uf5ugh17opnuv4b6ko4p@4ax.com...
>
> > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:46:20 +0100, Ingrid Liebeler
> > <Astro-Liebeler@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> >>On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 23:42:32 +0100, "Silveen"
> >><Stargazer-Silveen@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> >>>.
> >>> - -
> >>>Ein weiterer Start des CERt das N Projektes wäre möglicher Weise leichter
> >>>zu
> >>>verschieben gewesen. IsDatum schon gesetzt ? Ich habe dies nicht
> >>>verfolgt.
>
> >>Ist doch alles längst passiert/erfolgt/geschehen ...
>
> Frage: warum dann diese ganze Aufregung ?
>
>
>
> >>Der Merkur. Daß ich nicht lache ... Bei sowas ...
> >>Das Quadrat zwischen SATURN und PLUTO sind weitaus
> >>bedenklicher.
>
> >>I.
>
> > Der Merkur hat mit Verträgen und Finanzen zu tun.
> > Und dem Denken schlechthin.
> > Aber nicht mit Gewalt, sprich: einem gewaltvollen Geschehen.
>
> Eben, Merkur hat mit Verträgen, Daten setzen, planen schlechthin zu tun -
> z.B. ein Projekt, das unter Merkur rückläufig (retrograde) vertragsmäßig
> bestimmt, geplant und unterzeichnet wird, hat meiner langjährigen
> Erfahrung nach schon "eingebaute" Verzögerungs-Probleme.
>
> Ich habe dies seit über 25 Jahren erforscht und man kann ziemlich sicher
> sein, dass die Probleme nicht wären, wenn man sich die Zeit gelassen hätte
> zu warten (bestens bis Merkur wieder einige Wochen auf dem Direkt-
> kurs wäre). Es ist u.a. auch nicht so gut, unter ME rx zu heiraten, etc.
>
> Es gibt ganz wenige Ausnahmen zu dieser "Regel", aber das muss man
> einfach selbst erforschen, denn sonst kann man es, wird man es nicht
> glauben. Es ist besonders schwierig wenn der eigene (Geburts-) Merkur
> sich in dem Zeichen befindet, wie der stattfindende ME rx (könnte ich
> Bücher drüber schreiben).
Sehr interessant, das wusste ich bisher nicht.
(Halte mich kurz hier, im Wild-West Kugelhagel der vielen
reflexartigen Posts aus der Hüfte, oder so...)
)o+
> Die Welt kann natürlich nicht still stehen - und das drei Mal im Jahr - blos
> weil Merkur angelbich rückwärts läuft. Ich habe leider sehr viele
> frustrierende
> Situationen selbst erleben müssen. Die dadurch gewonnene Lebenserfahrung
> hat mich gelehrt, darauf zu achten.
> Es ist schon fast lustig, wenn man Bekannte und Freunde zu warnen versucht,
> und diese laut lachen, oder auch heftig argumentieren, "man kann doch nicht
> jedesmal warten, blos weil der blöde Merkur . . " aber dann ziemlich
> kleinlaut
> von der scheinbar nimmer endenden Frustration berichten, da alles auf
> Verzögerung hinaus lief.
> Dann kommt immer wieder die Frage, wann geschieht das das nächste Mal ?
> Oh wie schrecklich !
>
> BTW: dieses Mal ist ME rx bis einschließlich 14. Januar 2010 (im Steinbock)
> das nächste Mal vom 18. April - 11. Mai 2010 (im Stier), dann wieder vom
> 20. August - 11. September 2010 (in der Jungfrau).
> Jeder kann sich das in seinem Kalender notieren und versuchen, ob es
> ihr/ihm hilft, während dieser Zeit KEINE Verträge zu unterzeichnen,
> kann beobachten, wie das ist mit ALLEN Verzögerungen, ALLES was mit
> Kommunikation zu tun hat (inkl. Post kommt nicht an, der PC "zeigt seinen
> eigenen Willen", Luft- und Straßenverkehr, Gepäck geht verloren,
> das Handy/Telefon spielt verrückt etc.)
> ME rx ist aber eine gute Zeit um für zukünftige Pläne die Details zu
> erforschen.
>
> Es ist anzuraten, spätestens 1 Woche vor und ung. 2 Wochen nach
> dem Direktkurs zu warten, damit man sich auf "sicherer Basis" befindet.
> Ich weiß, das ist nicht immer machbar, aber man sollte die "Overlook"
> Möglichkeit bedenken, d.h. man denkt noch konzentrierter als sonst, ob
> man nicht doch irgend etwas übersehen haben könnte.
> All in all: man lebt viel bewusster. -
>
> Na dann viel Spaß.
>
> Take care and be well,
> and all have a HAPPY and HEALTHY NEW YEAR
> IRH/Silveen
--
(Sig war schon mal da, im ersten Post im "mein Vater" Thread:)
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
[Reply pro Forma an letzten Post im Thread, kein direkter Bezug dazu]
Experiment: Funktioniert Godwin's Law im Sinne dass der Thread dann
auch kurz darauf endet* ?
Das CERN ist schlimmer als Hitler!
)o+
--
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law#Corollaries_and_usage
From: Alain Stalder <alain.stalder@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: de.alt.astrologie,de.sci.psychologie
Subject: Re: Entstehung von Aberglaube in der modernen Wissensgesellschaft
Organization: (none)
References: <enblf8$emi$03$1@news.t-online.com>
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Guido Stepken schrieb:
> Entstehung von Aberglaube in der modernen Wissensgesellschaft:
>
> http://www.little-idiot.de/teambuilding/EntstehungAberglaubeWissensgesellschaft.pdf
Ich möchte gerne eine kurze Bemerkung machen zum Zitat von Stolzenberg,
das am Anfang des obengenannten Textes zitiert ist:
> "... ein Glaubenssystem ist ein System, in dem alle Akte der Beobachtung und des Urteilens
> ausschließlich von innerhalb des Systems aus erfolgen und in dem alle übrigen Erwägungen
> der Verteidigung des Systems selbst untergeordnet werden. Wenn ein außerhalb des Systems
> stehender Beobachter erkennen kann, daß ein solches System eine unrichtige Glaubensvorstellung
> enthält und das sie außerdem mit den Mitteln des Systems selbst nicht als unrichtig bewiesen
> werden kann, dann kann er sagen, daß dieses System zu einer Falle geworden ist. Der äußere
> Beobachter wird in dieser Situation diejenigen, die sich innerhalb des Systems befinden, als
> Dogmatiker auffassen, während diejenigen, die sich innerhalb des Systems befinden, den
> Beobachter als jemanden auffassen werden, der sich weigert, zu akzeptieren, was "offenkundig
> der Fall ist". Und tatsächlich werden beide Recht haben"
> Zitat des Mathematikers Gabriel Stolzenberg in dem Buch von Paul Watzlawick "Die Erfundene
> Wirklichkeit: Wie wissen wir, was wir zu wissen glauben? Beiträge zum Konstruktivismus" S. 255
Stolzenberg war sich offensichtlich der Arbeiten von Gödel bewusst,
welcher bewies, dass es in jedem formalen System (wie auch die
Mathematik eines ist) Sätze gibt, die wahr oder falsch sein können,
sich aber innerhalb des Systems weder mathematisch beweisen oder
widerlegen lassen, obwohl sie experimentell in einem konkreten Fall
überprüft werden können. Bekanntes Beispiel (von Schrödinger) sind
in der projektiven Geometrie die gleichen Abstände zwischen Geraden
und Punkten bei der 2-dimensionalen Konstruktion. In 2 Dimensionen
lässt sich diese Gleichheit zwar in jedem konkreten Fall direkt
messbar feststellen, aber nicht mathematische beweisen. Das geht
erst aus einer 3-dimensionalen Sichtweise heraus...
Dies legt natürlich nahe, dass Dogmatiker immer unrecht haben, dass
also der letzte Satz im Zitat von Stolzenberg falsch ist. Derjenige
mit mehr Übersicht hätte in jedem Fall eher Recht. Oder ist diese
Sichtweise vielleicht selbst schon wieder zu dogmatisch ?
Alain Stalder
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
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From: Hermes <hermes@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.foundations
Subject: Re: Decoherence (was: Question regarding coherent states and virtual particles)
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neil_delver@caloricmail.com wrote:
: Decoherence is a fallacious argument anyway and does not solve the
: quantum measurement problem.
I agree with the second part of your statement above,
and I guess most physicists do.
Regarding the first part of your statement above, if I
understand your reply here and the one at spr correctly,
you do not disagree with the majority of quantitative
predictions that decoherence makes, but rather with the
ideas behind it and their intrinsic logical consistence.
You specifically mentioned muon decay in relation to the
environment at spr, and, if I understand you correctly,
said that decoherence might mandate that muon lifetime
depended on its environment (which is, of course, not
observed in experiments so far) ?
Interesting idea in principle, maybe worth to develop
quantitative hypotheses and/or to investigate decay times
experimentally from that point of view. Matter of taste.
I guess such an effect would have to be quite small in
any case, else it would have already been observed.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
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From: hermes@exactphilosophy.net
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Since this is my first post here, I would like to present myself
briefly: I am a Swiss physicist (*1966). I studied physics at the
Swiss Institute of Technology in Zurich (ETHZ), graduated in 1990
in experimental physics, and then worked for 4.5 years at the IBM
Research Zurich Research Lab (PhD from University of Fribourg in
1995), building a combined scanning tunneling, scanning force,
and field ion microscope and making a few experiments. After that
I spent two long and cold winters at McGill University in Montreal,
in the same field, before returning to Switzerland for good in
the spring of 1997. Since then I am working in computer science
to make a living, while pursuing some research regarding rather
fundamental topics as a hobby.
One more thing: Even though the introduction above might suggest
otherwise, I am no stranger to usenet... ;)
In this post, I would like to present a fundamental approach to
physics that takes a strictly egoistic position, initially using
a very similar approach than what Kant does in the early chapters
of his Critique of Pure Reason regarding the immediate experience
of Space and Time. Just in case: The idea (my idea, at least) is
eventually to arrive at a formal mathematical model and to test it
by comparing it with experimental data. Things are just not much
there, yet, which I hope might make it an interesting topic for
discussion or at least a fun item to consider. Let me start.
The idea is to start by categorizing the perception that an
observing idividual gets from the world.
A fundamental distinction is space: There is an outside world that
is perceived as separate from the observing individual and there is
an inside world where things can be imagined. What separates in and
out and what separates things outside and inside from each other is
space in its most immediate form. Let me briefly cite Kant:
* By means of the external sense (a property of the mind), we
represent
* to ourselves objects as without us, and these all in space. Herein
* alone are their shape, dimensions, and relations to each other
* determined or determinable. [...] Space is not a conception which
has
* been derived from outward experiences. For, in order that certain
* sensations may relate to something without me (that is, to something
* which occupies a different part of space from that in which I am);
in
* like manner, in order that I may represent them not merely as
without,
* of, and near to each other, but also in separate places, the
* representation of space must already exist as a foundation. [...] We
* never can imagine or make a representation to ourselves of the non-
* existence of space, though we may easily enough think that no
objects
* are found in it.
Another also fundamental distinction is time: Some things that are
seen outside or imagined inside move, while others are at rest. Let
me again cite Kant:
* Time is not an empirical conception. For neither coexistence nor
* succession would be perceived by us, if the representation of time
* did not exist as a foundation a priori. [...] With regard to
* phenomena in general, we cannot think away time from them, and
* represent them to ourselves as out of and unconnected with time,
* but we can quite well represent to ourselves time void of phenomena.
This has lead me to the following Ansatz: Let's divide the observed
world into 4 "elements" (name chosen for cultural reasons):
EMO: element that moves outside
ERO: element that rests outside
EMI: element that moves inside
ERI: element that rests inside
The term "moves" as opposed to "rests" is defined by immediate
perception of the observing individual. So, for example, a driving
car moves, but a snail does not, because the motion is too slow to
be *directly* observed. Motion deduced by logic ("snail here now,
was there 5 minutes ago") does not count as motion in the above
definition. Nor does the microscopic random motion of the atoms
and molecules that the snail is made of count, because it is not
directly observed normally.
Let me first simplify the situation by assuming that the observing
individual does not move his/her head. Are there typically outside
more things in motion (EMO) or more things at rest (ERO) ? Seems
qualitatively that more things are at rest in typical everyday
situations, even in crowded places. Such a statement could very
likely be made exact by replacing the observer by a video camera
that would be mounted at different places and then measuring the
ratio of changing pixels as opposed to non-changing pixels.
Doing a similar measurement inside the mind is more difficult.
To date there are no agreed objective ways of measuring what goes
on inside the mind. But wait, objectivity is a priori not so much
of a problem in this "first person physics" approach, since there
is a priori just one (!) observing mind. More pragmatically,
activity in the brain can be measured to some degree, so that at
least some quantitative clues may be obtainable.
Subjective experience suggests that inside more moves than outside,
or at least that inside it is difficult to keep things at rest, for
example: It is no problem to look at a tree for some minutes and it
will typically move very little if at all, but if you close your
eyes and then try to imagine a tree at rest it will be very difficult,
and after a short time your thoughts will most likely deviate to
completely different things...
Since this post is already quite long, let me just sketch some
paths where one might go from here, see also my web site in the
section "elementary philosophy" for some more details:
- Move head: Count only relative motion of perceived objects.
Define how exactly ?
- Qualitatively:
- outside: move rests, inside: more moves
- outside: "energy" needed to get things moving,
inside: "energy" needed to keep things still
- outside: "hard" (motion requires "energy"),
inside: "soft" (resting requires "energy")
- Very qualitatively (culturally):
- Aristotle associates "hard" with "dry" and "soft" with "wet".
- Stoics associate "active" with "hot", "passive" with "cold".
- Thus by identification one would get to Aristotle's elements:
EMO = out + moves = active + hard = hot + dry = FIRE
ERO = out + rests = passive + hard = cold + dry = EARTH
EMI = in + moves = passive + soft = cold + wet = WATER
ERI = in + rests = active + soft = hot + wet = AIR
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
Charles Francis wrote (in reply to me, 15 Nov 2008, at
sci.physics.research):
: >There is one more point that speaks for the minimal elegance of
: >quantum mechanics, namely decoherence, since it explains already
: >*within* the theory why quantum interference usually disappears
: >for macroscopic objects.
:
: >In January 2003 I posted a Gedankenexperiment here that combines
: >decoherence with EPR and Schroedinger's Cats or Wigner's Friends,
: >and hopefully explains what decoherence can explain and what not
: >with regard to measurement in quantum mechanics:
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html
:
: Decoherence is a somewhat subtle notion. See
:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence
:
: It is not actually the same thing as wave function collapse, but is
: easily confused with it.
My reply then did not make it through, maybe the moderator
even suggested to direct the discussion here, I don't know.
Anyway, since you were apparently addressing a general public
with the last remark, I would like to add that, historically,
a property that was often believed to be part of the collapse
of the wave function, namely the disappearance of interference
between possible experimental outcomes, can now be explained
with decoherence. That is also the distinction that my Gedanken-
experiment was addressing. I am also not 100% sure if I did
think things all the way through there, or if maybe there is
something more that could be extracted from it...
Thanks also for the links to Relational Quantum Mechanics or
... Gravity. I would like to say more at a later time, after
taking a more detailed look.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
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From: Alain Stalder <archive@exactphilosophy.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
Subject: Re: Quantum communication might be possible?
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:29:16 +0000 (UTC)
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primus wrote:
: This interesting thought experiment is based on the classical double
: slit experiment.
:
: First you record (without observing) the which-way information of each
: particle at the slits, and the particle landing point information at
: the back wall separately. You store the information in two separate
: memory storages, after which you move the second memory storage far
: away from the first one.
:
: Then you make a delayed choice about erasing or not touching the
: which-way information recorded at the slits particle by particle and
: stored in the first memory storage. This will "affect" the landing
: point information (of the respective particles) recorded at the back
: wall and delivered over a long distance as the second memory storage.
: In other words, you have quantum communication, do you?
Due to decoherence, recording the "which way" information
in a macroscopic device already destroys the possibility
of interference between the two ways. So it will make no
difference whether you look at, ignore or destroy the
"which way" information later on.
For an introduction to decoherence in quantum mechanics,
see, for example, this review article by M. Tegmark and
J. A. Wheeler that appeared in SciAm:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0101077
Decoherence is merely an application of quantum mechanics.
Interaction with the environment effectively destroys the
possibility of interference between eigenstates. This
explains already, without requiring a conscious observer,
why the macroscopic world behaves statistically classical.
However, decoherence does not (or at least not yet) solve
the measurement problem. See, for example, this post by me
that I posted here a couple of years ago, which combines
decoherence with EPR in a thought experiment:
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html
Alain Stalder
Let me first expose some considerations before I get to the
specific question.
Coherent states in quantum mechanics and virtual particles
in quantum field theories share a qualitative property,
namely both exhibit a certain form of non-locality.
Results of quantum mechanical measurements are correlated
even in situations where there is a spacelike distance
between the two measurements, so that no real signal could
have signaled a hidden reality between the two measurements.
Virtual particles are not bound by the speed of light either.
As Feynman shows in a booklet called "Elementary Particle
Physics and the Laws of Physics" (Cambridge University Press,
1989), in a lecture called "The Reason for Antiparticles",
there must be a non-vanishing probability amplitude for
intermediate particles in a scattering process that are
outside the light cone, i.e. "faster than light".
This brings me to the question:
Could quantum field theory be reformulated such that virtual
particles (as a mathematical concept) would also describe
quantum mechanical coherence at the same time, unifying the
two concepts into a single one ?
This would be a specific form of a non-local hidden variable
theory in which virtual particles would mediate a real and
hidden reality, but would only allow this to happen in such
ways that no real signals could be observed to propagate
faster than at the speed of light.
Is anybody aware of such or similar theoretical attempts ?
Are there any arguments that would exclude this ?
Or maybe exclude just some forms of it ?
Any other specific ideas or comments ?
Alain Stalder
Igor Khavkine wrote:
: Entanglement, which is the property of quantum states you are
: referring to, is different from non-locality. So, right away, you are
: starting with a false premise.
That depends on the particular interpretation of quantum
mechanics. Interpretations in which there is a reality
that exists independently of observation, usually do not
get away without non-locality, and the reason they do not
is entanglement. My previous statement "Coherent states
in quantum mechanics [...] exhibit a certain form of non-
locality" was meant to alude to that and I consider it
"correct" to the degree to which it is exact.
Legett's paper that you mentioned does not exclude non-
local hidden variable theories in general, just a certain
class of them (which is certainly an interesting result).
Alain Stalder
Charles Francis wrote:
: Quite a number of people, including myself, have thought about this.
: None of the thoughts ever get far enough to dignify with the phrase
: "theoretical attempt". The problem is that these are chalk and cheese
: situations. The mathematics of entanglement leading to correlations
: between space-like separate events is so different from the mathematics
: of intermediate virtual particles that it is impossible to see any
: mechanism which would relate the two.
Thanks. Too bad though, I was hoping there had maybe
something new come up in recent years. :(
Quantum mechanics is very difficult to supersede,
probably for at least these two reasons:
a) No disagreement with experiment.
b) In many aspects a very simple and minimal theory.
(Linear, makes only statistical predictions about
things that can be measured)
I remain curious...
Alain Stalder
Charles Francis wrote:
: >Quantum mechanics is very difficult to supersede,
: >probably for at least these two reasons:
:
: >a) No disagreement with experiment.
: >b) In many aspects a very simple and minimal theory.
: > (Linear, makes only statistical predictions about
: > things that can be measured)
:
: Indeed. Imv, this is the key to understanding quantum theory. Being a
: minimal theory, the implication is that if any aspect of our intuition
: appears to be in conflict with it (viz. remote correlations), we should
: think that perhaps our intuition is causing us to make hidden, and
: false, assumptions. You might be interested in the statements I give of
: causality and locality at
:
: http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/Paradox
:
: These statements are not in conflict with Bell's theorem.
Thanks for the link. Actually lead me also to the interpretation
called "relational quantum mechanics", which I had never heard of.
There is one more point that speaks for the minimal elegance of
quantum mechanics, namely decoherence, since it explains already
*within* the theory why quantum interference usually disappears
for macroscopic objects.
In January 2003 I posted a Gedankenexperiment here that combines
decoherence with EPR and Schroedinger's Cats or Wigner's Friends,
and hopefully explains what decoherence can explain and what not
with regard to measurement in quantum mechanics:
--- START QUOTE ---
* Subject: Re: Some questions on decoherence and QM.
* From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
* Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:30:49 +0000 (UTC)
* Message-ID: <astalder-A850F5.13133713012003@news.bluewin.ch>
In article <3E1C9025.A2D5A6CB@uni-essen.de>,
Urs Schreiber <Urs.Schreiber@uni-essen.de> wrote:
> Frank Hellmann wrote:
> > A measurement of the quantum system described by rho in generally still
> > has a propability for both classically exclusive states though, so we
> > still have a superposition of classically exclusive states.
>
> The last phrase must read: "a *mixture* of classical states".
>
> Using the density operator one is bound to talk about
> statistics only. Decoherence cannot and does not explain "how"
> a system chooses from the possible outcomes a specific one
> when we measure it. Decoherence only explains how the "quantum
> probability" becomes a "classical probability", very roughly
> speaking, but it still only gives probabilities.
It is worthwhile to explain what exactly "classical" means in
this context. This is maybe most easily seen if Schroedinger's
Gedankenexperiment is combined with the experiment for testing
Bell's Inequality:
Two entangled photons fly in opposite directions and then each
pass through polarization filters. A photon detector after each
filter either kills or does not kill a cat on each side,
depending on whether the respective photon has passed through
the polarization filter.
Decoherence tells us that each cat quickly ends up in a state
with a density matrix that is practically diagonal. Or, more
loosely put, the cat is "either dead or alive, but not both".
Can we conclude that whether the cat is dead or alive is already
determined, that an experimentator who looks inside to discover
either a dead or a living cat will only note what was already
determined before ?
No, because Bell's Inequality excludes any local hidden variable
theories in which for both cats it would already be determined
whether the cats are dead or alive. In other words, "classical"
means in this context only that you cannot do interference with
Schroedinger's cats, i.e. that they statistically behave like
measured cats, but not that measurement has already occured
through decoherence.
Hence some of the "strangeness" of quantum mechanics remains,
especially if you modify the above Gedankenexperiment to include
what is typically called "Wigner's Friend". Replace each cat by
an experimentator who looks at the detector, and place two other
experimentators outside the respective labs.
Now, when does measurement occur ? When the inner experimentators
look at the detectors, or when the outer experimentators open the
doors to the respective labs and ask the guys inside about what
they have measured ? At least decoherence tells us that we cannot
distinguish experimentally between the two possibilities, because
in both cases all experimentators behave statistically classical.
In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
at least not yet.
Alain Stalder
--- END QUOTE ---
Defies intuition again, I guess. Picturing an individual cat as
losing all its coherence almost immediately by contact with its
environment would naively seem to exclude that a *pair* of cats
can maintain a relevant, measurable correlation.
I remain curious...
Igor Khavkine wrote:
: Practice has shown (including the results of Leggett) that it is
: realism that is incompatible with entanglement, rather than locality
: or lack thereof. So, your assertion is still on shaky footing.
Just like your first sentence above ;)
You make it sound like the measurement problem in
quantum mechancis was actually solved...
Until then this remains an open question and a matter
of taste. :)
See my other post in reply to Charles Francis for a few
more concrete ruminations that involve a different aspect
of relatively recent "practice", namely decoherence.
Alain Stalder
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From: delphi29@excite.com (Delphi Twentine)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
Subject: Zeno hoax ?
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:23:38 +0000 (UTC)
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Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com sci.physics.research:53552
There is a paper by Peter Lynds that has apparently caught
the attention of the media. It is to appear in Foundations
of Physics Letters this month:
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=624701
Here are title and abstract:
Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics : Indeterminacy vs.
Discontinuity
It is postulated there is not a precise static instant in time
underlying a dynamical physical process at which the relative
position of a body in relative motion or a specific physical
magnitude would theoretically be precisely determined. It is
concluded it is exactly because of this that time (relative
interval as indicated by a clock) and the continuity of a
physical process is possible, with there being a necessary
trade off of all precisely determined physical values at a time,
for their continuity through time. This explanation is also
shown to be the correct solution to the motion and infinity
paradoxes, excluding the Stadium, originally conceived by the
ancient Greek mathematician Zeno of Elea. Quantum Cosmology,
Imaginary Time and Chronons are also then discussed, with the
latter two appearing to be superseded on a theoretical basis.
In the acknowledgment, the author thanks several people,
including J.A. Wheeler:
"Conversations and correspondence with, and encouraging words
received from J. A. Wheeler of Princeton, J. J. C. Smart and
H. Price of Australia, C. Grigson of New Zealand, A. P. French
of MIT, and W. B. Yigitoz of Canada, as well as from the two
very helpful unanimous referees of this paper, are most
gratefully acknowledged."
So far, everything seems interesting. What makes me a bit
suspicious, is that Peter Lynds is said to be working as
a broadcasting instructor, according to the following
newspaper article that has been posted:
http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=bgdvur%24ntdn4%241%40ID-196093.news.uni-berlin.de
Could it be a hoax, appropriately placed in the summer months
where the media accept things more easily ? The paper seems
to be most specific in areas of physics that I do not grasp
well enough. So my question to the experts here:
Is it a hoax or is it for real ?
If it is for real, how big is it ?
delphi29@excite.com
Charles Francis wrote (in reply to me, 15 Nov 2008, at
sci.physics.research):
: >There is one more point that speaks for the minimal elegance of
: >quantum mechanics, namely decoherence, since it explains already
: >*within* the theory why quantum interference usually disappears
: >for macroscopic objects.
:
: >In January 2003 I posted a Gedankenexperiment here that combines
: >decoherence with EPR and Schroedinger's Cats or Wigner's Friends,
: >and hopefully explains what decoherence can explain and what not
: >with regard to measurement in quantum mechanics:
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html
:
: Decoherence is a somewhat subtle notion. See
:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence
:
: It is not actually the same thing as wave function collapse, but is
: easily confused with it.
My reply then did not make it through, maybe the moderator
even suggested to direct the discussion here, I don't know.
Anyway, since you were apparently addressing a general public
with the last remark, I would like to add that, historically,
a property that was often believed to be part of the collapse
of the wave function, namely the disappearance of interference
between possible experimental outcomes, can now be explained
with decoherence. That is also the distinction that my Gedanken-
experiment was addressing. I am also not 100% sure if I did
think things all the way through there, or if maybe there is
something more that could be extracted from it...
Thanks also for the links to Relational Quantum Mechanics or
.. Gravity. I would like to say more at a later time, after
taking a more detailed look.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net
Something different...
I have collected my usenet posts, albeit not fully sorted, and many
other public and semi-public stuff by me in a 500 MB Zip file that you
can find starting from my site in the archive section, a bit
convoluted, but if you really want it, you will *easily* find your
path to it. The file itself is called "machi.zip", after the first cat
we had when I was a kid, a red cat who my parents even could take for
a walk outside in the city. Obviously a Leo theme, and not unlikely
also in that sense my natal sun became to be in Leo, and is conjunct
Mars now...
Sorry for the back and forth, but after all Mercury is retrograde now
and in my chart and - at least in the past - for many posters to aam.
There is a German proverb, "Was lange waehrt, wird endlich gut", what
takes a long time, ends finally well. In that sense, I have put my
stuff into "stealth mode" adapted to current times (Sedna or whatever)
and making publicly available only the very tip of the iceberg (my
current minimal web site, see link below).
Thanks a million to Apollia for providing my old 2006 "odyssey.zip"
with lots of usenet posts up to there and more. Machi is Greek and
means destroyer, just like Apollon, the Greek god who's oracle is at
Delphi. To all the people who think that the corporate sharks are
taking over now and there is no stopping them, watch the movie at the
following link, which is really amazing and surprising, if you do not
know Cheiron in Pisces and especially Leo. The sharks will never who
what happened to them, why suddenly their apparent power disappeared,
they will just think that they kept swimming strongly forward and
nobody could stop them, while all they were doing in the end was more
and more going physically in circles and mentally stagnating, while
the opposite (physically resting and really thinking, back and forth)
won in the end.
http://www.examiner.com/x-2766-Atlanta-Astrology-Examiner~y2009m7d18-Stealth-beats-power-octopus-eats-shark-crazy--video
Article "Stealth beats power: Pisces octopus vs. Scorpio shark,
crazy video" by Patricia Lantz
Video from National Geographic
Some associations with the number 8 from my "toolbox": Transformation
of element Earth, Uranus/Scorpio/8th, I Ching, August/Leo, Dirac,
chess, Pisces (8x8 matrix of horizontal fish (mother) and vertical
fish (son), abstract drawing of a fish looks similar to number 8), see
old posts for more details.
And, of course, there was Peleus (strongly related to Cheiron)
wrestling Thetis who also turned into squid as part of that, see old
posts for more details.
One more thing: A few years ago, when so many objects were discovered
in the solar system, I proposed a "wildcard" planet also called
"Machi" that you would be free to put anywhere you wanted in your
chart. Say, you have a troubling transit of Pluto over the AC, then
just put Machi the destroyer there and things will likely get a bit
better. Give it a try, I am sure it will work. Catwoman wearing a
Joker mask.
That's it, let go of me now, you public squid, once and for all, I
want to be free again
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
One more thing regarding squids: Of course, Greece will in no time and
seemingly effortlessly shake off the current crisis, at least that is
my guess, would not be the first time in history, the already beat the
well-organized and numerous Persians in the past. :)
On Apr 6, 11:01=A0am, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> Now with Umlauts and so...
>
> Aufkl=E4rung ist der Ausgang des Menschen aus seiner selbstverschuldeten
> Unm=FCndigkeit. Unm=FCndigkeit ist das Unverm=F6gen, sich seines Verstand=
es
> ohne Leitung eines anderen zu bedienen. Selbstverschuldet ist diese
> Unm=FCndigkeit, wenn die Ursache derselben nicht am Mangel des
> Verstandes, sondern der Entschlie=DFung und des Mutes liegt, sich seiner
> ohne Leitung eines anderen zu bedienen. Sapere aude! Habe Mut, dich
> deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen! ist also der Wahlspruch der
> Aufkl=E4rung. -- Immanuel Kant (Was ist Aufkl=E4rung, 1784)
>
> D=E9broulliez vous!
>
> And also my last public statement outside of my web site. :)
>
> me as )o+
>
> --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> Something different...
What had puzzled me most was that all people quite suddenly changed
their attitude towards various things, but for all that it appears
without themselves noticing anything, so that I even ended up thinking
it might be somehow my fault or due to my ways of behaving. I am very
relieved that that this is not at all so and happy that I can now let
all those thousands of issues and events that did not fit in in the
previous seven years or so essentially sink back into the
unconscious... A great relief for me personally. Actually at first I
thought that I might write a "sedna collection" and publish it, in
which I would review/explain it all in light of sedna ruling (or
"ruling") libra and currently in taurus (two trad. venus ruled signs,
never seen a myth with so many phallic symbols than sedna's myth, what
venus' mind circles around, I guess). Anyway, thanks for the lucky
unexpectedly quick resolution, literally millions of details that
suddenly fit in, phew... )o+
On Apr 11, 8:56 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 11:01 am, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Now with Umlauts and so...
>
> > Aufkl=E4rung ist der Ausgang des Menschen aus seiner selbstverschuldete=
n
> > Unm=FCndigkeit. Unm=FCndigkeit ist das Unverm=F6gen, sich seines Versta=
ndes
> > ohne Leitung eines anderen zu bedienen. Selbstverschuldet ist diese
> > Unm=FCndigkeit, wenn die Ursache derselben nicht am Mangel des
> > Verstandes, sondern der Entschlie=DFung und des Mutes liegt, sich seine=
r
> > ohne Leitung eines anderen zu bedienen. Sapere aude! Habe Mut, dich
> > deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen! ist also der Wahlspruch der
> > Aufkl=E4rung. -- Immanuel Kant (Was ist Aufkl=E4rung, 1784)
>
> > D=E9broulliez vous!
>
> > And also my last public statement outside of my web site. :)
>
> > me as )o+
>
> > --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> > Something different...
>
> What had puzzled me most was that all people quite suddenly changed
> their attitude towards various things, but for all that it appears
> without themselves noticing anything, so that I even ended up thinking
> it might be somehow my fault or due to my ways of behaving. I am very
> relieved that that this is not at all so and happy that I can now let
> all those thousands of issues and events that did not fit in in the
> previous seven years or so essentially sink back into the
> unconscious... A great relief for me personally. Actually at first I
> thought that I might write a "sedna collection" and publish it, in
> which I would review/explain it all in light of sedna ruling (or
> "ruling") libra and currently in taurus (two trad. venus ruled signs,
> never seen a myth with so many phallic symbols than sedna's myth, what
> venus' mind circles around, I guess). Anyway, thanks for the lucky
> unexpectedly quick resolution, literally millions of details that
> suddenly fit in, phew... )o+
4. DIE ZAUBERPERLE
Der Herr der gelben Erde wandelte jenseits der Grenzen der Welt. Da
kam auf einen sehr hohen Berg und schaute den Kreislauf der
Wiederkehr. Da verlor er seine Zauberperle. Er sandte Erkenntnis aus,
sie zu suchen, und bekam sie nicht wieder. Er sandte Scharfblick aus,
sie zu suchen, und bekam sie nicht wieder. Er sandte Denken aus, sie
zu suchen, und bekam sie nicht wieder. Da sandte er Selbstvergessen
aus. Selbstvergessen fand sie. Der Herr der gelben Erde sprach:
"Seltsam, fürwahr, dass gerade Selbstvergessen fähig war, sie zu
finden!" (Dschuang Dsi. Das wahre Buch vom südlichen Blumenland.
Übersetzt von Richard Wilhelm. Diederichs Gelbe Reihe. Sonderausgabe
2002.)
me as )o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...
[test ignore - google profile 2010 archive copy plus comment]
Alain Stalder
Physicist (PhD), working as a Software Developer
Adliswil, Switzerland
I was born in Zurich, Switzerland, 7 August 1966 (at 4:12 am)
and grew up in Adliswil [http://www.adliswil.ch/] near Zurich.
With the exception of two winters and one summer in Montreal,
Canada, in 1995-97, I have lived in Adliswil ever since.
I have studied physics at the Swiss Institute of Technology
(ETHZ [http://www.ethz.ch/]) in Zurich and worked at the IBM
Zurich Research Laboratory [http://www.zurich.ibm.com/] in
Ruschlikon for my Ph. D. There I built a combined Scanning
Tunneling Microscope (STM), Atomic Force Microscope (AFM) and
Field Ion Microscope (FIM), operated under Ultrahing-Vacuum and
cooled with liquid nitrogen, and made a few experiments with
that apparatus. In my subsequent post-doc stay at Montreal, the
apparatus was also moved there with my help.
Since 1997 I have been working in Zurich in software development
(C, C++, C#, Java, roughly in that order). The happiest time in
my life has been the years working at iT_SEC iT_Security AG in
Zurich between 1997 and about 2002 (the company no longer
exists). Since 2007 I am working for United Security Providers
AG in Zurich (formerly Tetrade AG), a very good and stable
company based in Bern und Zurich, where I have also learned a
lot about software design and web related technologies from
Apache to Java and various protocols and standards.
As a hobby I do research in fundamental views of the world,
including devising plausible explanations for as yet unconfirmed
phenomena. With plausible, I mean logically consistent and not
in direct disagreement with experimental facts so far, but
usually also that some contemporary paradigms are hypothetically
bent or dropped in the sense of Gedankenexperiments
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment].
See my web site http://www.exactphilosophy.net/.
As a physicist I am typically well aware of what has been
formally proven and what remains a mystery and I certainly enjoy
probing new paths, if only for the sake of creating beautiful
fragments of art... ;)
Public Domain
The following ideas have essentially emerged in the first decade
of the 21st century (2000-09). I will not pursue them much in
public, except in the minimal form of my web site and maybe in
occasional usenet discussions. So, if there is any idea you
"dig" in particular, feel free to evolve it, to write about it,
etc.
A core ingredient of my research is the pragmatic conclusion
from (so far informal) observation that astrology more likely
than not works. In my suggested models, the basic assumption is
that astrology is to first order (although maybe not
fundamentally) a cultural phenomenon, based on collective
emotional feedback via known (or possibly new) communication
channels in a way that is typically not consciously registered
by people. See the teasingly titled subsection "mixed feelings"
[http://www.exactphilosophy.net/feelings.html] on my web site or
(in more detail) "long-range feelings" further below.
But I have also proposed some quite specific and concrete models
that simplify the symbolic worlds that astrologers describe to a
degree that might make it significantly easier to test astrology
in experiments (without necessarily reducing phenomenological
diversity). Most prominent is a model that describes each star
sign in (Western tropical) astrology by a transition of the four
classical elements fire, air, water and earth. See subsection
"elemental cycles"
[http://www.exactphilosophy.net/elemental.html] on my web site
or (in more detail) "elementary star signs" further below.
In addition and as what I personally perceive to be by far my
best idea, I propose a definition of the four classical elements
from first principles, namely from the immediate perception of
space and time, strongly inspired by Kant (and Schopenhauer) and
I can also show some direct correlations to how Aristotle
defined the elements in terms of dry/wet and hot/cold, and even
with the 8 trigrams of the Chinese I Ching. See section "the
idea" [http://www.exactphilosophy.net/idea.html] with all its
subsections on my web site.
Between 2002 and 2010, I have posted quite a bit to Usenet,
mostly to alt.astrology.moderated
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/topics?gvc=2]
(and while it lasted also a lot to alt.astrology.tropical). I
did like the freedom and openness in Usenet, despite the
sometimes extremely original other posters (and myself at times
;). I would almost certainly never have gotten involved with
astrology, had I not fallen in love with a Czech girl (Pisces
sun, at a quincunx to my sun) in 1982, but (Helas!) it did not
work out with her at all, nor did doing astrology bring me luck
except maybe briefly in late 2009. Prove me wrong! ;)
Between 2000 and 2002, I wrote the astrology program "Delphi"
for PalmOS handheld devices under the pseudonym "Delphi
Twentine" or "delphi29@excite.com". The program is now kindly
hosted by Apollia at
astroblahhh.com/astrology/software/delphi_and_astrolib/.
Between 1995 and 1997, I wrote several HyperCard stacks,
including "trueColor"
[http://archive.info-mac.org/dev/card/true-color-102-hc.hqx], a
maybe somewhat more intuitive way to add color to HyperCard than
Apple's ColorTools.
In 2010 I have started a Java open-source project called
"jexler", see jexler.sourceforge.net.
PS: Just in case: I am not the Alain Stalder of the Swiss
company "stalder extrusion AG" [http://www.stalderextrusion.ch/]
(formerly "plastag AG").
Usenet
Just a quick selection of links and meta-links...
* Unconscious Communication and Astrology
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/
2659729d71e120c7]
- Apollia's reply to a usenet post by me, in which I exposed the
basic idea how astrology would work by unconscious collective
feedback.
* long-range feelings 2009 - PART 1
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/f568b1cf94143288#]
- PART 2
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/91ce179086bd6791]
- Same idea, in the form described in 2009 on my web site.
* elementary star signs 2009
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/32c057c5de68367a]
- My elementary model of the star signs of the (tropical
western) zodiac, with replies.
* magic carpets 2009 - PART 1
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/2f342d639421ce50]
- PART 2 [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/9ddc8b75b5ebafc3]
- A description of the associative methods mostly around
astrology that I have developed during the years.
* Archetypes for the Elements and the Zodiac
[http://web.archive.org/web/20050215194330/exactphilosophy.net/
selection/s075.html]
- Older description of my model of the star signs of the
zodiac (originally posted in 2002).
* Axes and Opposites
[http://web.archive.org/web/20050216230010/exactphilosophy.net/
selection/s095.html]
- Also an older post about the idea that opposing signs in the
zodiac could be in some respects mirror images of each other.
* Astrology Revisited
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/msg/
817c77013a488550]
- Jyeshta's reply to one of my usenet posts in 2008; I feel
quite ambivalent about the tone of my post.
* Book of Changes
[http://web.archive.org/web/20050205022800/exactphilosophy.net/
book/]
- An older text that contains already quite a few of my
associative ideas around elements and astrology (2004).
* Usenet and Experiment
[http://web.archive.org/web/20050222091126/exactphilosophy.net/
selection/s246.html]
- Original post with the idea how to use usenet or similar
forums to prove astrology.
* moebius lego 2009
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/84ca64c83aea4f58#]
- Idea how to describe the world and maybe avoid the usual
logical problems with self-reference.
* science revisited 2009
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/d9745dadec023b8c#]
- Some symbolic takes at different aspects of science.
* Selection
[http://web.archive.org/web/20050205033526/exactphilosophy.net/
selection/]
- 50 older usenet posts with original ideas related to
astrology, philosophy, physics and more.
* What indicates something being opened up?
[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/
browse_thread/thread/b02a5fd719690c06]
- Thread at alt.astrology.moderated about a riddle that turned
out to he related to the discovery of the tomb of Tutenchamun
in 1922. Illustrates quite a few things about astrology works
today, in my personal view...
* Decoherence and EPR
[http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html]
- Gedankenexperiment from quantum mechanics, combining the
Einstein-Podolski-Rosen paradox with decoherence,
Schroedinger's Cats and Wigners Friends (2002).
* Web Archive
[http://web.archive.org/web/*/exactphilosophy.net/]
- Public archive copies of my web site between 2002 and 2005
(see current site for newer archive copies).
* See my usenet posts to alt.astrology.moderated ('Hermes').
Astro Links
Just a tiny collection - follow the "white rabbits" at the sites below
for much more...
* http://www.altastrologymoderated.info/
Homepage of alt.astrology.moderated - contains also a
meta-library of astrological books and embeds the uranica.com
astro search engine.
* http://www.astro.com/
Many indispensable services and texts related to astrology -
web site of the company Astrodienst AG in Zurich, Switzerland.
* http://www.skyscript.co.uk/
Deborah Houldings UK astrology pages - with many texts by
various authors, including much about traditional methods.
* http://www.constellationsofwords.com/
Anne Wright's Australian site about the fixed stars and
constellations.
* http://astroblahhh.com/
Apollia's web site - with astrology related stuff and more.
* http://carnesoft.net/
Todd Carnes' free astrological resources, including many hard
to find old texts about and around astrology.
* http://www.astropro.com/
Richard Nolle's astrology site, with many useful things.
* http://www.panix.com/userdirs/gsk/
Gail Klein's AstroWorks web pages - including many original
contributions to quite specific astrological configurations.
* http://pedantus.free.fr/frame1.htm
Pedantus' Journal of Horoscopic Expressionism - The Astrology
of Creative Self-Expression
* http://www.astrofaces.com/astrofaces/
Web site with a large collection of portrait photos, sorted by
birth data.
* http://www.horozcope.com/asteroids/
Discovery data for many asteroids.
* http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~raymur/allastrology.html
Ray Murphy's "All Astrology on the Net" - with various links,
including to the Tropical Astrology Research Google group
* http://www.lunarplanner.com/
Nick Antony Fiorenza's Lunnar Planner Sideral Astrology web
site - don't miss the article related to Orcus's discovery
(search for 'Subra, marking'...)!
Sorry to anybody who I forgot in this list!
Where I grew up
Adliswil, Switzerland
Places I've lived
Montreal, Canada
[comment 2010-03-20 08:00 AM Adliswil]
It is just so that people in my life time are too afraid
of what I discovered - from relatives and close friends
via all kinds of more or less regular people of special
interests, to famous and fairly intelligent people, even
ones who discovered fairly unique things on their own.
So I retire from public activities, except very slowly
evolving my web site (and except software projects). I
need some rest and to do different things, there is way
more to life than just these things, of course...
(A book of the exact contents of my web site is not
excluded in the future, if enough people ask for it.)
The rest is entirely the responsibility of anybody who
may feel like taking it from here in the remote future.
Thanks everybody for the feedback, especially the folks
at aamod in late 2009 and early 2010, and also the ones
at aat while it lasted.
(My google profile is archived here; most of my astro
ideas can still be found at google groups; if anybody
asks, I can provide most photos that were in my picasa
aamod album at the time, free to archive them publicly.)
It may feel unlikely that this really has been it from
my side, but yes, it has. You all could have been just
a little bit more open and reluctant to judge that which
you are afraid of yourself to see in the mirror.
A little bit more desert is not "bat" now... :)
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
)o+
[A look behind the scenes, never submitted anywhere else than alt.test...]
Hi everybody,
Here is a riddle: Can you guess the AC of someone from a public logo
for a user account ?
Here's the logo and charts for the birth date in 2 hour steps (I have
added my naive blue-eyed guess as a "full moon" to the large image of
the logo, arguably maybe also out of an urge to balance the large
black area in the logo):
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5IMWn5NZVI/AAAAAAAAAt4/CKZMSSRMCHc/riddle-logo.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5ION-qsjPI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/N_p0AImZb1U/riddle-wheels.jpg
For all that it appears to me, the logo depicts Catwoman wearing a
Joker mask, which shows already some of the hidden complexity in the
logo - two masks on top of each other is rather unusual in practice.
Some background: The person is female, works or worked in "show
business", although rather behind the scenes (costume/stage design),
lives or lived in Prague (Czech Republic) and no, I do not have the
solution to the riddle, but am "tantalized" to get some clues... ;)
)o+
--
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Mar 6, 9:36 am, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> [A look behind the scenes, never submitted anywhere else than
> alt.test...]
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Here is a riddle: Can you guess the AC of someone from a public logo
> for a user account ?
>
> Here's the logo and charts for the birth date in 2 hour steps (I have
> added my naive blue-eyed guess as a "full moon" to the large image of
> the logo, arguably maybe also out of an urge to balance the large
> black area in the logo):
>
> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5IMWn5NZVI/AAAAAAAAAt4/CKZMSSRMCHc...
>
> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5ION-qsjPI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/N_p0AImZb1U...
>
> For all that it appears to me, the logo depicts Catwoman wearing a
> Joker mask, which shows already some of the hidden complexity in the
> logo - two masks on top of each other is rather unusual in practice.
Amun, the "force behind the invisible wind" as Liz Greene writes
the moon in Aries, conjunct mine
that fated connection that may or may not be consciously registered on
the other side
without it, I am practically dead, and maybe the other side, too
harlekin in the comedia dell arte, etymologically apparently
"hellboy", like me, like she
left and right hand, power to create or destroy, too much lever for
the contemporary world
joker in batman, "you can't stand the truth"
yes, from famous scientists/astrologers, assumed general public,
usenet readers and posters, to good friends and relatives, I tried to
put things in a way that would be an acceptable compromise to all, but
nobody at all ever compromised a bit, and if they had, it would not
have helped in the end
doing this, trying to be right to all sides, almost wrecked me, that
is not the way to go
not that all I wrote and invented is made of gold, but a lot is
genuinely new and I produced a lot more such really new ideas than
anybody else I am aware of in these times
these things must be written down in a format that will be accessible
to future readers, despite its contemporary apparent strangeness
sometimes
and it is my fate, sun-sun quincunx that keeps aparart, moon-moon
conjunction that forever melts together or persishes, as strange as it
may seem to outsiders
so, hide, write in secret, publish web site rarely, and leave it at
that, no more ads, no more usenet posts, maybe open-source software
"jexler" on the side
-- after all it is not me who is unable to integrate, as a Swiss I do
that all the time at work and in other things, no, in this case it is
the newness and fundamentality of the ideas, despite other opinions
today from all directions, despite all these attempts to bend things
so far that the key new concepts are lost
Amun
love you, p, stick to you (or "you") no matter what, have no choice, a
common "child" (exactphilosophy.net from discoveries.pdf on) rests
with you for all your life, there is nothing that you can do about
that...
sorry to all contemporary folks, but that this goes so hard and like
in a swamp is also your fault, so let me write my site in peace and
just ignore it...
future generations will thank you, cheesy, like the moon, or aries
like apple or anything really new (develop secretly, then announce)
also, maybe I will in the end not miss contemporary astrology all that
much, is good for learning the structure of symbols and learning to
apply them, but at some point, you should be able to read symbols
directly, in all that happens in the world...
bye, and thanks for all the fish :)
stay tuned for future releases of my web site, with all its (my and
her) quirks embossed for eternity in it, but also with some really
cool new stuff, unspoken of, guarded by those lone masked warriors
that nobody understands, oh well, maybe in a couple of years, there
will be more again, or maybe not, no matter, try again, fail again,
fail better (beckett)
but if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing gets his
tail in the water, there is nothing that would further
I:I :I:
> Some background: The person is female, works or worked in "show
> business", although rather behind the scenes (costume/stage design),
> lives or lived in Prague (Czech Republic) and no, I do not have the
> solution to the riddle, but am "tantalized" to get some clues... ;)
>
> )o+
>
> --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilosophy.net/
On Mar 6, 11:01 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 6, 9:36 am, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> > [A look behind the scenes, never submitted anywhere else than
> > alt.test...]
> > Hi everybody,
> > Here is a riddle: Can you guess the AC of someone from a public logo
> > for a user account ?
> > Here's the logo and charts for the birth date in 2 hour steps (I have
> > added my naive blue-eyed guess as a "full moon" to the large image of
> > the logo, arguably maybe also out of an urge to balance the large
> > black area in the logo):
> >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5IMWn5NZVI/AAAAAAAAAt4/CKZMSSRMCHc...
> >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5ION-qsjPI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/N_p0AImZb1U...
> > For all that it appears to me, the logo depicts Catwoman wearing a
> > Joker mask, which shows already some of the hidden complexity in the
> > logo - two masks on top of each other is rather unusual in practice.
> Amun, the "force behind the invisible wind" as Liz Greene writes
> the moon in Aries, conjunct mine
> that fated connection that may or may not be consciously registered on
> the other side
> without it, I am practically dead, and maybe the other side, too
> harlekin in the comedia dell arte, etymologically apparently
> "hellboy", like me, like she
> left and right hand, power to create or destroy, too much lever for
> the contemporary world
> joker in batman, "you can't stand the truth"
> yes, from famous scientists/astrologers, assumed general public,
> usenet readers and posters, to good friends and relatives, I tried to
> put things in a way that would be an acceptable compromise to all, but
> nobody at all ever compromised a bit, and if they had, it would not
> have helped in the end
> doing this, trying to be right to all sides, almost wrecked me, that
> is not the way to go
> not that all I wrote and invented is made of gold, but a lot is
> genuinely new and I produced a lot more such really new ideas than
> anybody else I am aware of in these times
> these things must be written down in a format that will be accessible
> to future readers, despite its contemporary apparent strangeness
> sometimes
> and it is my fate, sun-sun quincunx that keeps aparart, moon-moon
> conjunction that forever melts together or persishes, as strange as it
> may seem to outsiders
> so, hide, write in secret, publish web site rarely, and leave it at
> that, no more ads, no more usenet posts, maybe open-source software
> "jexler" on the side
> -- after all it is not me who is unable to integrate, as a Swiss I do
> that all the time at work and in other things, no, in this case it is
> the newness and fundamentality of the ideas, despite other opinions
> today from all directions, despite all these attempts to bend things
> so far that the key new concepts are lost
> Amun
> love you, p, stick to you (or "you") no matter what, have no choice, a
> common "child" (exactphilosophy.net from discoveries.pdf on) rests
> with you for all your life, there is nothing that you can do about
> that...
> sorry to all contemporary folks, but that this goes so hard and like
> in a swamp is also your fault, so let me write my site in peace and
> just ignore it...
> future generations will thank you, cheesy, like the moon, or aries
> like apple or anything really new (develop secretly, then announce)
> also, maybe I will in the end not miss contemporary astrology all that
> much, is good for learning the structure of symbols and learning to
> apply them, but at some point, you should be able to read symbols
> directly, in all that happens in the world...
> bye, and thanks for all the fish :)
> stay tuned for future releases of my web site, with all its (my and
> her) quirks embossed for eternity in it, but also with some really
> cool new stuff, unspoken of, guarded by those lone masked warriors
> that nobody understands, oh well, maybe in a couple of years, there
> will be more again, or maybe not, no matter, try again, fail again,
> fail better (beckett)
> but if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing gets his
> tail in the water, there is nothing that would further
> I:I :I:> Some background: The person is female, works or worked in "show
> > business", although rather behind the scenes (costume/stage design),
> > lives or lived in Prague (Czech Republic) and no, I do not have the
> > solution to the riddle, but am "tantalized" to get some clues... ;)
> > )o+
> > --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilos...
PS: no, I have no clue about the AC, so what... ;)
[still testing...]
On Mar 6, 11:02 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 6, 11:01 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 6, 9:36 am, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
> > > [A look behind the scenes, never submitted anywhere else than
> > > alt.test...]
>
> > > Hi everybody,
>
> > > Here is a riddle: Can you guess the AC of someone from a public logo
> > > for a user account ?
>
> > > Here's the logo and charts for the birth date in 2 hour steps (I have
> > > added my naive blue-eyed guess as a "full moon" to the large image of
> > > the logo, arguably maybe also out of an urge to balance the large
> > > black area in the logo):
>
> > >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5IMWn5NZVI/AAAAAAAAAt4/CKZMSSRMCHc...
>
> > >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5ION-qsjPI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/N_p0AImZb1U...
>
> > > For all that it appears to me, the logo depicts Catwoman wearing a
> > > Joker mask, which shows already some of the hidden complexity in the
> > > logo - two masks on top of each other is rather unusual in practice.
>
> > Amun, the "force behind the invisible wind" as Liz Greene writes
> > the moon in Aries, conjunct mine
> > that fated connection that may or may not be consciously registered on
> > the other side
> > without it, I am practically dead, and maybe the other side, too
> > harlekin in the comedia dell arte, etymologically apparently
> > "hellboy", like me, like she
> > left and right hand, power to create or destroy, too much lever for
> > the contemporary world
> > joker in batman, "you can't stand the truth"
> > yes, from famous scientists/astrologers, assumed general public,
> > usenet readers and posters, to good friends and relatives, I tried to
> > put things in a way that would be an acceptable compromise to all, but
> > nobody at all ever compromised a bit, and if they had, it would not
> > have helped in the end
> > doing this, trying to be right to all sides, almost wrecked me, that
> > is not the way to go
> > not that all I wrote and invented is made of gold, but a lot is
> > genuinely new and I produced a lot more such really new ideas than
> > anybody else I am aware of in these times
> > these things must be written down in a format that will be accessible
> > to future readers, despite its contemporary apparent strangeness
> > sometimes
> > and it is my fate, sun-sun quincunx that keeps aparart, moon-moon
> > conjunction that forever melts together or persishes, as strange as it
> > may seem to outsiders
> > so, hide, write in secret, publish web site rarely, and leave it at
> > that, no more ads, no more usenet posts, maybe open-source software
> > "jexler" on the side
> > -- after all it is not me who is unable to integrate, as a Swiss I do
> > that all the time at work and in other things, no, in this case it is
> > the newness and fundamentality of the ideas, despite other opinions
> > today from all directions, despite all these attempts to bend things
> > so far that the key new concepts are lost
> > Amun
> > love you, p, stick to you (or "you") no matter what, have no choice, a
> > common "child" (exactphilosophy.net from discoveries.pdf on) rests
> > with you for all your life, there is nothing that you can do about
> > that...
> > sorry to all contemporary folks, but that this goes so hard and like
> > in a swamp is also your fault, so let me write my site in peace and
> > just ignore it...
> > future generations will thank you, cheesy, like the moon, or aries
> > like apple or anything really new (develop secretly, then announce)
> > also, maybe I will in the end not miss contemporary astrology all that
> > much, is good for learning the structure of symbols and learning to
> > apply them, but at some point, you should be able to read symbols
> > directly, in all that happens in the world...
> > bye, and thanks for all the fish :)
> > stay tuned for future releases of my web site, with all its (my and
> > her) quirks embossed for eternity in it, but also with some really
> > cool new stuff, unspoken of, guarded by those lone masked warriors
> > that nobody understands, oh well, maybe in a couple of years, there
> > will be more again, or maybe not, no matter, try again, fail again,
> > fail better (beckett)
> > but if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing gets his
> > tail in the water, there is nothing that would further
> > I:I :I:> Some background: The person is female, works or worked in "show
> > > business", although rather behind the scenes (costume/stage design),
> > > lives or lived in Prague (Czech Republic) and no, I do not have the
> > > solution to the riddle, but am "tantalized" to get some clues... ;)
>
> > > )o+
>
> > > --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactphilos...
>
> PS: no, I have no clue about the AC, so what... ;)
[use fixed width font]
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MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMMMMMIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMMMM=ZDNMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMMM:~DO7OINMMMMMMMMMM8MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMMI~=M=NMMM7M8$IZMMM+$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMMM~==MMMMMMM7M$NNMOZIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMM8~=+ZZMMMMMMMMMZ8NO8NNMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMMM~~=+?77OOMMMZMMMMDZM88MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMM===?78DZ8MMMMZMMMMMMMDZMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMZ$?$O$O++,,.,,:+$8MMMMM?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMZI$7OM?O:,... .....,:+$8NMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMDD8ZIZ77.. ..$, ...~NNMDMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMN+DN7Z7=... . ....7:I8N:MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMMZ7$MMM?~:.:M... ...,~~8$?DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMM8I7INMM+,...MD. ...:NO+??MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMM7OZ$ZMMMI=,.... ..O:,:.=?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MMMMMM8ZDNMM?$7.... . ......:DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
8NIMM?+I7OO8I=D$III.MO7OM$$+MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
MNO=~~7+?7$ODNMN87. .MMMDIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
M+O~==+?II7Z8NNNNNMNMMMND$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
?7~+++?II7$Z8NMDI877MNNNOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
~N???I777$ZZOMM8$NO..MN8MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
$MZ7$$$O8OOZ8NM$OMNMN?+DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
NMD7$$$Z8DDMNMN?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
NMN888D8DDMMMM8$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
)o+
[testing again, extralong post...]
On Mar 8, 9:33 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> [still testing...]
>
> On Mar 6, 11:02 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 6, 11:01 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 6, 9:36 am, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
> > > > [A look behind the scenes, never submitted anywhere else than
> > > > alt.test...]
>
> > > > Hi everybody,
>
> > > > Here is a riddle: Can you guess the AC of someone from a public log=
o
> > > > for a user account ?
>
> > > > Here's the logo and charts for the birth date in 2 hour steps (I ha=
ve
> > > > added my naive blue-eyed guess as a "full moon" to the large image =
of
> > > > the logo, arguably maybe also out of an urge to balance the large
> > > > black area in the logo):
>
> > > >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5IMWn5NZVI/AAAAAAAAAt4/CKZMSSRMCH=
c...
>
> > > >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5ION-qsjPI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/N_p0AImZb1=
U...
>
> > > > For all that it appears to me, the logo depicts Catwoman wearing a
> > > > Joker mask, which shows already some of the hidden complexity in th=
e
> > > > logo - two masks on top of each other is rather unusual in practice=
.
>
> > > Amun, the "force behind the invisible wind" as Liz Greene writes
> > > the moon in Aries, conjunct mine
> > > that fated connection that may or may not be consciously registered o=
n
> > > the other side
> > > without it, I am practically dead, and maybe the other side, too
> > > harlekin in the comedia dell arte, etymologically apparently
> > > "hellboy", like me, like she
> > > left and right hand, power to create or destroy, too much lever for
> > > the contemporary world
> > > joker in batman, "you can't stand the truth"
> > > yes, from famous scientists/astrologers, assumed general public,
> > > usenet readers and posters, to good friends and relatives, I tried to
> > > put things in a way that would be an acceptable compromise to all, bu=
t
> > > nobody at all ever compromised a bit, and if they had, it would not
> > > have helped in the end
> > > doing this, trying to be right to all sides, almost wrecked me, that
> > > is not the way to go
> > > not that all I wrote and invented is made of gold, but a lot is
> > > genuinely new and I produced a lot more such really new ideas than
> > > anybody else I am aware of in these times
> > > these things must be written down in a format that will be accessible
> > > to future readers, despite its contemporary apparent strangeness
> > > sometimes
> > > and it is my fate, sun-sun quincunx that keeps aparart, moon-moon
> > > conjunction that forever melts together or persishes, as strange as i=
t
> > > may seem to outsiders
> > > so, hide, write in secret, publish web site rarely, and leave it at
> > > that, no more ads, no more usenet posts, maybe open-source software
> > > "jexler" on the side
> > > -- after all it is not me who is unable to integrate, as a Swiss I do
> > > that all the time at work and in other things, no, in this case it is
> > > the newness and fundamentality of the ideas, despite other opinions
> > > today from all directions, despite all these attempts to bend things
> > > so far that the key new concepts are lost
> > > Amun
> > > love you, p, stick to you (or "you") no matter what, have no choice, =
a
> > > common "child" (exactphilosophy.net from discoveries.pdf on) rests
> > > with you for all your life, there is nothing that you can do about
> > > that...
> > > sorry to all contemporary folks, but that this goes so hard and like
> > > in a swamp is also your fault, so let me write my site in peace and
> > > just ignore it...
> > > future generations will thank you, cheesy, like the moon, or aries
> > > like apple or anything really new (develop secretly, then announce)
> > > also, maybe I will in the end not miss contemporary astrology all tha=
t
> > > much, is good for learning the structure of symbols and learning to
> > > apply them, but at some point, you should be able to read symbols
> > > directly, in all that happens in the world...
> > > bye, and thanks for all the fish :)
> > > stay tuned for future releases of my web site, with all its (my and
> > > her) quirks embossed for eternity in it, but also with some really
> > > cool new stuff, unspoken of, guarded by those lone masked warriors
> > > that nobody understands, oh well, maybe in a couple of years, there
> > > will be more again, or maybe not, no matter, try again, fail again,
> > > fail better (beckett)
> > > but if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing gets his
> > > tail in the water, there is nothing that would further
> > > I:I :I:> Some background: The person is female, works or worked in "s=
how
> > > > business", although rather behind the scenes (costume/stage design)=
,
> > > > lives or lived in Prague (Czech Republic) and no, I do not have the
> > > > solution to the riddle, but am "tantalized" to get some clues... ;)
>
> > > > )o+
>
> > > > --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exactph=
ilos...
>
> > PS: no, I have no clue about the AC, so what... ;)
>
> [use fixed width font]
>
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMMMMIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMMM=3DZDNMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMM:~DO7OINMMMMMMMMMM8MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMMI~=3DM=3DNMMM7M8$IZMMM+$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMMM~=3D=3DMMMMMMM7M$NNMOZIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMM8~=3D+ZZMMMMMMMMMZ8NO8NNMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMMM~~=3D+?77OOMMMZMMMMDZM88MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMM=3D=3D=3D?78DZ8MMMMZMMMMMMMDZMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMZ$?$O$O++,,.,,:+$8MMMMM?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMZI$7OM?O:,... .....,:+$8NMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMDD8ZIZ77.. ..$, ...~NNMDMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMN+DN7Z7=3D... . ....7:I8N:MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMMZ7$MMM?~:.:M... ...,~~8$?DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMM8I7INMM+,...MD. ...:NO+??MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMM7OZ$ZMMMI=3D,.... ..O:,:.=3D?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MMMMMM8ZDNMM?$7.... . ......:DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> 8NIMM?+I7OO8I=3DD$III.MO7OM$$+MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> MNO=3D~~7+?7$ODNMN87. .MMMDIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> M+O~=3D=3D+?II7Z8NNNNNMNMMMND$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> ?7~+++?II7$Z8NMDI877MNNNOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> ~N???I777$ZZOMM8$NO..MN8MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> $MZ7$$$O8OOZ8NM$OMNMN?+DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> NMD7$$$Z8DDMNMN?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> NMN888D8DDMMMM8$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
>
> )o+
Franz Kafka
Das Schweigen der Sirenen
Beweis dessen, dass auch unzulaengliche, ja kindische Mittel zur
Rettung dienen koennen:
Um sich vor den Sirenen zu bewahren, stopfte sich Odysseus Wachs in
die Ohren und liess sich am Mast festschmieden. aehnliches haetten
natuerlich seit jeher alle Reisenden tun koennen, ausser denen, welche
die Sirenen schon aus der Ferne verlockten, aber es war in der ganzen
Welt bekannt, dass dies unmoeglich helfen konnte. Der Sang der Sirenen
durchdrang alles, und die Leidenschaft der Verfuehrten haette mehr als
Ketten und Mast gesprengt. Daran aber dachte Odysseus nicht, obwohl er
davon vielleicht gehoert hatte. Er vertraute vollstaendig der Handvoll
Wachs und dem Gebinde Ketten und in unschuldiger Freude ueber seine
Mittelchen fuhr er den Sirenen entgegen.
Nun haben aber die Sirenen eine noch schrecklichere Waffe als den
Gesang, naemlich ihr Schweigen. Es ist zwar nicht geschehen, aber
vielleicht denkbar, dass sich jemand vor ihrem Gesang gerettet haette,
vor ihrem Schweigen gewiss nicht. Dem Gefuehl, aus eigener Kraft sie
besiegt zu haben, der daraus folgenden alles fortreissenden
ueberhebung kann nichts Irdisches widerstehen.
Und tatsaechlich sangen, als Odysseus kam, die gewaltigen Saengerinnen
nicht, sei es, dass sie glaubten, diesem Gegner koenne nur noch das
Schweigen beikommen, sei es, dass der Anblick der Glueckseligkeit im
Gesicht des Odysseus, der an nichts anderes als an Wachs und Ketten
dachte, sie allen Gesang vergessen liess.
Odysseus aber, um es so auszudruecken, hoerte ihr Schweigen nicht, er
glaubte, sie saengen, und nur er sei behuetet, es zu hoeren. Fluechtig
sah er zuerst die Wendungen ihrer Haelse, das tiefe Atmen, die
traenenvollen Augen, den halb geoeffneten Mund, glaubte aber, dies
gehoere zu den Arien, die ungehoert um ihn verklangen. Bald aber glitt
alles an seinen in die Ferne gerichteten Blicken ab, die Sirenen
verschwanden foermlich vor seiner Entschlossenheit, und gerade als er
ihnen am naechsten war, wusste er nichts mehr von ihnen.
Sie aber - schoener als jemals - streckten und drehten sich, liessen
das schaurige Haar offen im Winde wehen und spannten die Krallen frei
auf den Felsen. Sie wollten nicht mehr verfuehren, nur noch den
Abglanz vom grossen Augenpaar des Odysseus wollten sie so lange als
moeglich erhaschen.
Haetten die Sirenen Bewusstsein, sie waeren damals vernichtet worden.
So aber blieben sie, nur Odysseus ist ihnen entgangen.
Es wird uebrigens noch ein Anhang hierzu ueberliefert. Odysseus, sagt
man, war so listenreich, war ein solcher Fuchs, dass selbst die
Schicksalsgoettin nicht in sein Innerstes dringen konnte. Vielleicht
hat er, obwohl das mit Menschenverstand nicht mehr zu begreifen ist,
wirklich gemerkt, dass die Sirenen schwiegen, und hat ihnen und den
Goettern den obigen Scheinvorgang nur gewissermassen als Schild
entgegengehalten.
--
Prolegomena
zu
einer jeden
kuenftigen Metaphysik
die
als Wissenschaft
wird auftreten koennen,
von
Immanuel Kant
Riga, bey Johann Friedrich Hartknoch. 1783.
Vorrede
Diese Prolegomena sind nicht zum Gebrauch vor Lehrlinge, sondern vor
kuenftige Lehrer, und sollen auch diesen nicht etwa dienen, um den
Vortrag einer schon vorhandnen Wissenschaft anzuordnen, sondern um
diese Wissenschaft selbst allererst zu erfinden.
Es gibt Gelehrte, denen die Geschichte der Philosophie (der alten
sowohl als neuen) selbst ihre Philosophie ist, vor diese sind
gegenwaertige Prolegomena nicht geschrieben. Sie muessen warten, bis
diejenigen, die aus den Quellen der Vernunft selbst zu schoepfen
bemuehet sind, ihre Sache werden ausgemacht haben, und alsdenn wird an
ihnen die Reihe sein, von dem Geschehenen der Welt Nachricht zu geben.
Widrigenfalls kann nichts gesagt werden, was ihrer | Meinung nach
nicht schon sonst gesagt worden ist, und in der Tat mag dieses auch
als eine untruegliche Vorhersagung vor alles Kuenftige gelten; denn,
da der menschliche Verstand ueber unzaehlige Gegenstaende viele
Jahrhunderte hindurch auf mancherlei Weise geschwaermt hat, so kann es
nicht leicht fehlen, dass nicht zu jedem Neuen etwas Altes gefunden
werden sollte, was damit einige aehnlichkeit haette.
Meine Absicht ist, alle diejenigen, so es wert finden, sich mit
Metaphysik zu beschaeftigen, zu ueberzeugen: dass es unumgaenglich
notwendig sei, ihre Arbeit vor der Hand auszusetzen, alles bisher
Geschehene als ungeschehen anzusehen, und vor allen Dingen zuerst die
Frage aufzuwerfen: "ob auch so etwas, als Metaphysik, ueberall nur
moeglich sei."
Ist sie Wissenschaft, wie kommt es, dass sie sich nicht, wie andre
Wissenschaften, in allgemeinen und daurenden Beifall setzen kann? Ist
sie keine, wie geht es zu, dass sie doch unter dem Scheine einer
Wissenschaft unaufhoerlich gross tut, und den menschlichen Verstand
mit niemals erloeschenden, aber nie erfuellten Hoffnungen hinhaelt?
Man mag also entweder sein Wissen oder Nichtwissen demonstrieren, so
muss doch einmal ueber die Natur dieser angemassten Wissenschaft etwas
Sicheres ausgemacht werden; denn auf | demselben Fusse kann es mit ihr
unmoeglich laenger bleiben. Es scheint beinahe belachenswert, indessen
dass jede andre Wissenschaft unaufhoerlich fortrueckt, sich in dieser,
die doch die Weisheit selbst sein will, deren Orakel jeder Mensch
befraegt, bestaendig auf derselben Stelle herumzudrehen, ohne einen
Schritt weiterzukommen. Auch haben sich ihre Anhaenger gar sehr
verloren, und man siehet nicht, dass diejenigen, die sich stark genug
fuehlen, in andern Wissenschaften zu glaenzen, ihren Ruhm in dieser
wagen wollen, wo jedermann, der sonst in allen uebrigen Dingen
unwissend ist, sich ein entscheidendes Urteil anmasst, weil in diesem
Lande in der Tat noch kein sicheres Mass und Gewicht vorhanden ist, um
Gruendlichkeit von seichtem Geschwaetze zu unterscheiden.
Es ist aber eben nicht so was Unerhoertes, dass nach langer
Bearbeitung einer Wissenschaft, wenn man Wunder denkt, wie weit man
schon darin gekommen sei, endlich sich jemand die Frage einfallen
laesst: ob und wie ueberhaupt eine solche Wissenschaft moeglich sei.
Denn die menschliche Vernunft ist so baulustig, dass sie mehrmalen
schon den Turm aufgefuehrt, hernach aber wieder abgetragen hat, um zu
sehen, wie das Fundament desselben wohl beschaffen sein moechte. Es
ist niemals zu spaet, vernuenftig und | weise zu werden; es ist aber
jederzeit schwerer, wenn die Einsicht spaet kommt, sie in Gang zu
bringen.
Zu fragen: ob eine Wissenschaft auch wohl moeglich sei, setzt voraus,
dass man an der Wirklichkeit derselben zweifle. Ein solcher Zweifel
aber beleidigt jedermann, dessen ganze Habseligkeit vielleicht in
diesem vermeinten Kleinode bestehen moechte; und daher mag sich der,
so sich diesen Zweifel entfallen laesst, nur immer auf Widerstand von
allen Seiten gefasst machen. Einige werden in stolzem Bewusstsein
ihres alten, und ebendaher vor rechtmaessig gehaltenen Besitzes, mit
ihren metaphysischen Kompendien in der Hand, auf ihn mit Verachtung
herabsehen: andere, die nirgends etwas sehen, als was mit dem einerlei
ist, was sie schon sonst irgendwo gesehen haben, werden ihn nicht
verstehen, und alles wird einige Zeit hindurch so bleiben, als ob gar
nichts vorgefallen waere, was eine nahe Veraenderung besorgen oder
hoffen liesse.
Gleichwohl getraue ich mir vorauszusagen, dass der selbstdenkende
Leser dieser Prolegomenen nicht bloss an seiner bisherigen
Wissenschaft zweifeln, sondern in der Folge gaenzlich ueberzeugt sein
werde, dass es dergleichen gar nicht geben koenne, ohne dass die hier
geaeusserte Forderungen geleistet werden, auf welchen | ihre
Moeglichkeit beruht, und, da dieses noch niemals geschehen, dass es
ueberall noch keine Metaphysik gebe. Da sich indessen die Nachfrage
nach ihr doch auch niemals verlieren kann weil das Interesse der
allgemeinen Menschenvernunft mit ihr gar zu innigst verflochten ist,
so wird er gestehen, dass eine voellige Reform, oder vielmehr eine
neue Geburt derselben, nach einem bisher ganz unbekannten Plane,
unausbleiblich bevorstehe, man mag sich nun eine Zeitlang dagegen
straeuben, wie man wolle.
Seit LOCKES und LEIBNIZENS Versuchen, oder vielmehr seit dem Entstehen
der Metaphysik, soweit die Geschichte derselben reicht, hat sich keine
Begebenheit zugetragen, die in Ansehung des Schicksals dieser
Wissenschaft haette entscheidender werden koennen, als der Angriff,
den DAVID HUME auf dieselbe machte. Er brachte kein Licht in diese Art
von Erkenntnis, aber er schlug doch einen Funken, bei welchem man wohl
ein Licht haette anzuenden koennen, wenn er einen empfaenglichen
Zunder getroffen haette, dessen Glimmen sorgfaeltig waere unterhalten
und vergroessert worden.
| HUME ging hauptsaechlich von einem einzigen, aber wichtigen Begriffe
der Metaphysik, naemlich dem der Verknuepfung der Ursache und Wirkung,
(mithin auch dessen Folgebegriffe der Kraft und Handlung etc.) aus,
und forderte die Vernunft, die da vorgibt, ihn in ihrem Schosse
erzeugt zu haben, auf, ihm Rede und Antwort zu geben, mit welchem
Rechte sie sich denkt: dass etwas so beschaffen sein koenne, dass,
wenn es gesetzt ist, dadurch auch etwas anderes notwendig gesetzt
werden muesse; denn das sagt der Begriff der Ursache. Er bewies
unwidersprechlich: dass es der Vernunft gaenzlich unmoeglich sei, a
priori, und aus Begriffen eine solche Verbindung zu denken, denn diese
enthaelt Notwendigkeit; es ist aber gar nicht abzusehen, wie darum,
weil etwas ist, etwas anderes notwendiger Weise auch sein muesse, und
wie sich also der Begriff von einer solchen Verknuepfung a priori
einfuehren lasse. Hieraus schloss er, dass die Vernunft sich mit
diesem Begriffe ganz und gar betriege, dass sie ihn faelschlich vor
ihr eigen Kind halte, da er doch nichts anders als ein Bastard der
Einbildungskraft sei, die, durch Erfahrung beschwaengert, gewisse
Vorstellungen unter das Gesetz der Assoziation gebracht hat, und eine
daraus entspringende subjektive Notwendigkeit d. i. Gewohnheit, vor
eine objektive | aus Einsicht unterschiebt. Hieraus schloss er: die
Vernunft habe gar kein Vermoegen, solche Verknuepfungen, auch selbst
nur im allgemeinen, zu denken, weil ihre Begriffe alsdenn blosse
Erdichtungen sein wuerden, und alle ihre vorgeblich a priori
bestehende Erkenntnisse waeren nichts als falsch gestempelte gemeine
Erfahrungen, welches ebensoviel sagt, als, es gebe ueberall keine
Metaphysik und koenne auch keine geben.
So uebereilt und unrichtig auch seine Folgerung war, so war sie doch
wenigstens auf Untersuchung gegruendet, und diese Untersuchung war es
wohl wert, dass sich die guten Koepfe seiner Zeit vereinigt haetten, |
die Aufgabe in dem Sinne, wie er sie vortrug, womoeglich gluecklicher
aufzuloesen, woraus denn bald eine gaenzliche Reform der Wissenschaft
haette entspringen muessen.
Allein das der Metaphysik von jeher unguenstige Schicksal wollte, dass
er von keinem verstanden wuerde. Man kann es, ohne eine gewisse Pein
zu empfinden, nicht ansehen, wie so ganz und gar seine Gegner REID,
OSWALD, BEATTlE, und zuletzt noch PRIESTLEY, den Punkt seiner Aufgabe
verfehlten, und indem sie immer das als zugestanden annahmen, was er
eben bezweifelte, dagegen aber mit Heftigkeit und mehrenteils mit
grosser Unbescheidenheit dasjenige bewiesen, was ihm niemals zu
bezweifeln in den Sinn gekommen war, seinen Wink zur Verbesserung so
verkannten, dass alles in dem alten Zustande blieb, als ob nichts
geschehen waere. Es war nicht die Frage, ob der Begriff der Ursache
richtig, brauchbar, und in Ansehung der ganzen Naturerkenntnis
unentbehrlich sei, denn dieses hatte HUME niemals in Zweifel gezogen;
sondern ob er durch die Vernunft a priori gedacht werde, und auf
solche Weise eine von aller Erfahrung unabhaengige innre Wahrheit und
daher auch wohl weiter ausgedehnte Brauchbarkeit habe, die nicht bloss
auf Gegenstaende der Erfahrung | eingeschraenkt sei: hierueber
erwartete HUME Eroeffnung. Es war ja nur die Rede von dem Ursprunge
dieses Begriffs, nicht von der Unentbehrlichkeit desselben im
Gebrauche: waere jenes nur ausgemittelt, so wuerde es sich wegen der
Bedingungen seines Gebrauches, und des Umfangs, in welchem er gueltig
sein kann, schon von selbst gegeben haben.
Die Gegner des beruehmten Mannes haetten aber, um der Aufgabe ein
Gnuege zu tun, sehr tief in die Natur der Vernunft, sofern sie bloss
mit reinem Denken beschaeftigt ist, hineindringen muessen, welches
ihnen ungelegen war. Sie erfanden daher ein bequemeres Mittel, ohne
alle Einsicht trotzig zu tun, naemlich die Berufung auf den gemeinen
Menschenverstand. In der Tat ists eine grosse Gabe des Himmels, einen
geraden (oder, wie man es neuerlich benannt hat, schlichten)
Menschenverstand zu besitzen. Aber man muss ihn durch Taten beweisen,
durch das ueberlegte und Vernuenftige, was man denkt und sagt, nicht
aber dadurch, dass, wenn man nichts Kluges zu seiner Rechtfertigung
vorzubringen weiss, man sich auf ihn als ein Orakel beruft. Wenn
Einsicht und Wissenschaft auf die Neige gehen, alsdenn und nicht eher,
sich auf den gemeinen Menschenverstand zu berufen, das ist eine von
den | subtilen Erfindungen neuerer Zeiten, dabei es der schalste
Schwaetzer mit dem gruendlichsten Kopfe getrost aufnehmen, und es mit
ihm aushalten kann. Solange aber noch ein kleiner Rest von Einsicht da
ist, wird man sich wohl hueten, diese Nothilfe zu ergreifen. Und, beim
Lichte besehen, ist diese Appellation nichts anders, als eine Berufung
auf das Urteil der Menge; ein Zuklatschen, ueber das der Philosoph
erroetet, der populaere Witzling aber triumphiert und trotzig tut. Ich
sollte aber doch denken, HUME habe auf einen gesunden Verstand ebenso
wohl Anspruch machen koennen, als BEATTlE, und noch ueberdem auf das,
was dieser gewiss nicht besass, naemlich eine kritische Vernunft, die
den gemeinen Verstand in Schranken haelt, damit er sich nicht in
Spekulationen versteige, oder, wenn bloss von diesen die Rede ist,
nichts zu entscheiden begehre, weil er sich ueber seine Grundsaetze
nicht zu rechtfertigen versteht; denn nur so allein wird er ein
gesunder Verstand bleiben. Meissel und Schlaegel koennen ganz wohl
dazu dienen, ein Stueck Zimmerholz zu bearbeiten, aber zum
Kupferstechen muss man die Radiernadel brauchen. So sind gesunder
Verstand sowohl als spekulativer, beide, aber jeder in seiner Art,
brauchbar: jener, wenn es auf Urteile ankommt, die in | der Erfahrung
ihre unmittelbare Anwendung finden, dieser aber, wo im allgemeinen,
aus blossen Begriffen geurteilt werden soll, z. B. in der Metaphysik,
wo der sich selbst, aber oft per antiphrasin, so nennende gesunde
Verstand ganz und gar kein Urteil hat.
Ich gestehe frei: die Erinnerung des DAVID HUME war eben dasjenige,
was mir vor vielen Jahren zuerst den dogmatischen Schlummer
unterbrach, und meinen Untersuchungen im Felde der spekulativen
Philosophie eine ganz andre Richtung gab. Ich war weit entfernt, ihm
in Ansehung seiner Folgerungen Gehoer zu geben, die bloss daher
ruehrten, weil er sich seine Aufgabe nicht im Ganzen vorstellte,
sondern nur auf einen Teil derselben fiel, der, ohne das Ganze in
Betracht zu ziehen, keine Auskunft geben kann. Wenn man von einem
gegruendeten, obzwar nicht ausgefuehrten Gedanken anfaengt, den uns
ein anderer hinterlassen, so kann man wohl hoffen, es bei
fortgesetztem Nachdenken weiter zu bringen, als der scharfsinnige Mann
kam, dem man den ersten Funken dieses Lichts zu verdanken hatte.
Ich versuchte also zuerst, ob sich nicht HUMES Einwurf allgemein
vorstellen liesse, und fand bald: dass der Begriff der Verknuepfung
von Ursache und | Wirkung bei weitem nicht der einzige sei, durch den
der Verstand a priori sich Verknuepfungen der Dinge denkt, vielmehr,
dass Metaphysik ganz und gar daraus bestehe. Ich suchte mich ihrer
Zahl zu versichern, und, da dieses mir nach Wunsch, naemlich aus einem
einzigen Prinzip, gelungen war, so ging ich an die Deduktion dieser
Begriffe, von denen ich nunmehr versichert war, dass sie nicht, wie
HUME besorgt hatte, von der Erfahrung abgeleitet, sondern aus dem
reinen Verstande entsprungen seien. Diese Deduktion, die meinem
scharfsinnigen Vorgaenger unmoeglich schien, die niemand ausser ihm
sich auch nur hatte einfallen lassen, obgleich jedermann sich der
Begriffe getrost bediente, ohne zu fragen, worauf sich denn ihre
objektive Gueltigkeit gruende, diese, sage ich, war das schwerste, das
jemals zum Behuf der Metaphysik unternommen werden konnte, und was
noch das Schlimmste dabei ist, so konnte mir Metaphysik, soviel davon
nur irgendwo vorhanden ist, hiebei auch nicht die mindeste Huelfe
leisten, weil jene Deduktion zuerst die Moeglichkeit einer Metaphysik
ausmachen soll. Da es mir nun mit der Aufloesung des Humischen
Problems nicht bloss in einem besondern Falle, sondern in Absicht auf
das ganze Vermoegen der reinen Vernunft gelungen war: so konnte ich
sichere, obgleich | immer nur langsame Schritte tun, um endlich den
ganzen Umfang der reinen Vernunft, in seinen Grenzen sowohl als seinem
Inhalt, vollstaendig und nach allgemeinen Prinzipien zu bestimmen,
welches denn dasjenige war, was Metaphysik bedarf, um ihr System nach
einem sicheren Plan aufzufuehren.
Ich besorge aber, dass es der Ausfuehrung des Humischen Problems in
seiner moeglich groessten Erweiterung (naemlich der Kritik der reinen
Vernunft) ebenso gehen duerfte, als es dem Problem selbst erging, da
es zuerst vorgestellt wurde. Man wird sie unrichtig beurteilen, weil
man sie nicht versteht; man wird sie nicht verstehen, weil man das
Buch zwar durchzublaettern, aber nicht durchzudenken Lust hat; und man
wird diese Bemuehung darauf nicht verwenden wollen, weil das Werk
trocken, weil es dunkel, weil es allen gewohnten Begriffen
widerstreitend und ueberdem weitlaeuftig ist. Nun gestehe ich, dass es
mir unerwartet sei, von einem Philosophen Klagen wegen Mangel an
Popularitaet, Unterhaltung und Gemaechlichkeit zu hoeren, wenn es um
die Existenz einer gepriesenen und der Menschheit unentbehrlichen
Erkenntnis selbst zu tun ist, die nicht anders, als nach den
strengsten Regeln einer schulgerechten Puenktlichkeit | ausgemacht
werden kann, auf welche zwar mit der Zeit auch Popularitaet folgen,
aber niemals den Anfang machen darf. Allein, was eine gewisse
Dunkelheit betrifft, die zum Teil von der Weitlaeuftigkeit des Plans
herruehret, bei welcher man die Hauptpunkte, auf die es bei der
Untersuchung ankommt, nicht wohl uebersehen kann: so ist die
Beschwerde deshalb gerecht, und dieser werde ich durch gegenwaertige
Prolegomena abhelfen.
Jenes Werk, welches das reine Vernunftvermoegen in seinem ganzen
Umfange und Grenzen darstellt, bleibt dabei immer die Grundlage,
worauf sich die Prolegomena nur als Voruebungen beziehen; denn jene
Kritik muss als Wissenschaft systematisch, und bis zu ihren kleinsten
Teilen vollstaendig dastehen, ehe noch daran zu denken ist, Metaphysik
auftreten zu lassen, oder sich auch nur eine entfernte Hoffnung zu
derselben zu machen.
Man ist es schon lange gewohnt, alte abgenutzte Erkenntnisse dadurch
neu aufgestutzt zu sehen, dass man sie aus ihren vormaligen
Verbindungen herausnimmt, ihnen ein systematisches Kleid nach eigenem
beliebigen Schnitte, aber unter neuen Titeln, anpasst; | und nichts
anders wird der groesste Teil der Leser auch von jener Kritik zum
voraus erwarten. Allein diese Prolegomena werden ihn dahin bringen,
einzusehen, dass es eine ganz neue Wissenschaft sei, von welcher
niemand auch nur den Gedanken vorher gefasst hatte, wovon selbst die
blosse Idee unbekannt war, und wozu von allem bisher Gegebenen nichts
genutzt werden konnte, als allein der Wink, den HUMES Zweifel geben
konnten, der gleichfalls nichts von einer dergleichen moeglichen
foermlichen Wissenschaft ahnte, sondern sein Schiff, um es in
Sicherheit zu bringen, auf den Strand (den Skeptizism) setzte, da es
denn liegen und verfaulen mag, statt dessen es bei mir darauf ankommt,
ihm einen Piloten zu geben, der nach sicheren Prinzipien der
Steuermannskunst, die aus der Kenntnis des Globus gezogen sind, mit
einer vollstaendigen Seekarte und einem Kompass versehen, das Schiff
sicher fuehren koenne, wohin es ihm gut duenkt.
Zu einer neuen Wissenschaft, die gaenzlich isoliert und die einzige
ihrer Art ist, mit dem Vorurteil gehen, als koenne man sie vermittelst
seiner schon sonst erworbenen vermeinten Kenntnisse beurteilen,
obgleich die es eben sind, an deren Realitaet zuvor gaenzlich
gezweifelt | werden muss, bringt nichts anders zuwege, als dass man
allenthalben das zu sehen glaubt, was einem schon sonst bekannt war,
weil etwa die Ausdruecke jenem aehnlich lauten, nur, dass einem alles
aeusserst verunstaltet, widersinnisch und kauderwelsch vorkommen muss,
weil man nicht die Gedanken des Verfassers, sondern immer nur seine
eigene, durch lange Gewohnheit zur Natur gewordene Denkungsart dabei
zum Grunde legt. Aber die Weitlaeuftigkeit des Werks, sofern sie in
der Wissenschaft selbst und nicht dem Vortrage gegruendet ist, die
dabei unvermeidliche Trockenheit und scholastische Puenktlichkeit sind
Eigenschaften, die zwar der Sache selbst ueberaus vorteilhaft sein
moegen, dem Buche selbst aber allerdings nachteilig werden muessen.
Es ist zwar nicht jedermann gegeben, so subtil und doch zugleich so
anlockend zu schreiben, als DAVID HUME, oder so gruendlich und dabei
so elegant, als MOSES MENDELSSOHN; allein Popularitaet haette ich
meinem Vortrage (wie ich mir schmeichele) wohl geben koennen, wenn es
mir nur darum zu tun gewesen waere, einen Plan zu entwerfen, und
dessen Vollziehung andern anzupreisen, und mir nicht das Wohl der
Wissenschaft, die mich so lange beschaeftigt | hielt, am Herzen
gelegen haette; denn uebrigens gehoerte viel Beharrlichkeit und auch
selbst nicht wenig Selbstverlaeugnung dazu, die Anlockung einer
frueheren guenstigen Aufnahme der Aussicht auf einen zwar spaeten,
aber dauerhaften Beifall nachzusetzen.
Plane machen ist mehrmalen eine ueppige, prahlerische
Geistesbeschaeftigung, dadurch man sich ein Ansehen von
schoepferischem Genie gibt, indem man fodert, was man selbst nicht
leisten, tadelt, was man doch nicht besser machen kann, und
vorschlaegt, wovon man selbst nicht weiss, wo es zu finden ist,
wiewohl auch nur zum tuechtigen Plane einer allgemeinen Kritik der
Vernunft schon etwas mehr gehoeret haette, als man wohl vermuten mag,
wenn er nicht bloss, wie gewoehnlich, eine Deklamation frommer
Wuensche haette werden sollen. Allein reine Vernunft ist eine so
abgesonderte, in ihr selbst so durchgaengig verknuepfte Sphaere, dass
man keinen Teil derselben antasten kann, ohne alle uebrige zu
beruehren, und nichts ausrichten kann, ohne vorher jedem seine Stelle
und seinen Einfluss auf den andern bestimmt zu haben, weil, da nichts
ausser derselben ist, was unser Urteil innerhalb berichtigen koennte,
jedes Teiles Gueltigkeit und Gebrauch von dem Verhaeltnisse abhaengt,
darin | er gegen die uebrigen in der Vernunft selbst steht, und, wie
bei dem Gliederbau eines organisierten Koerpers, der Zweck jedes
Gliedes nur aus dem vollstaendigen Begriff des Ganzen abgeleitet
werden kann. Daher kann man von einer solchen Kritik sagen: dass sie
niemals zuverlaessig sei, wenn sie nicht ganz und bis auf die
mindesten Elemente der reinen Vernunft vollendet ist, und dass man von
der Sphaere dieses Vermoegens entweder alles oder nichts bestimmen und
ausmachen muesse.
Ob aber gleich ein blosser Plan, der vor der Kritik der reinen
Vernunft vorhergehen moechte, unverstaendlich, unzuverlaessig und
unnuetze sein wuerde, so ist er dagegen um desto nuetzlicher, wenn er
darauf folgt. Denn dadurch wird man in den Stand gesetzt, das Ganze zu
uebersehen, die Hauptpunkte, worauf es bei dieser Wissenschaft
ankommt, stueckweise zu pruefen, und manches dem Vortrage nach besser
einzurichten, als es in der ernsten Ausfertigung des Werks geschehen
konnte.
Hier ist nun ein solcher Plan, nach vollendetem Werke, der nunmehr
nach analytischer Methode angelegt sein darf, da das Werk selbst
durchaus | nach synthetischer Lehrart abgefasst sein musste, damit die
Wissenschaft alle ihre Artikulationen, als den Gliederbau eines ganz
besondern Erkenntnisvermoegens, in seiner natuerlichen Verbindung vor
Augen stelle. Wer diesen Plan, den ich als Prolegomena vor aller
kuenftigen Metaphysik voranschicke, selbst wiederum dunkel findet, der
mag bedenken, dass es eben nicht noetig sei, dass jedermann Metaphysik
studiere, dass es manches Talent gebe, welches in gruendlichen und
selbst tiefen Wissenschaften, die sich mehr der Anschauung naehern,
ganz wohl fortkoemmt, dem es aber mit Nachforschungen durch lauter
abgezogene Begriffe nicht gelingen will, und dass man seine
Geistesgaben in solchem Fall auf einen andern Gegenstand verwenden
muesse, dass aber derjenige, der Metaphysik zu beurteilen, ja selbst
eine abzufassen unternimmt, denen Forderungen, die hier gemacht
werden, durchaus ein Gnuege tun muesse, es mag nun auf die Art
geschehen, dass er meine Aufloesung annimmt, oder sie auch gruendlich
widerlegt und eine andere an deren Stelle setzt, =96 denn abweisen kann
er sie nicht =96 und dass endlich die so beschrieene Dunkelheit (eine
gewohnte Bemaentelung seiner eigenen Gemaechlichkeit oder
Bloedsichtigkeit) auch ihren Nutzen habe: da alle, die in Ansehung
aller andern | Wissenschaften ein behutsames Stillschweigen
beobachten, in Fragen der Metaphysik meisterhaft sprechen und dreust
entscheiden, weil ihre Unwissenheit hier freilich nicht gegen anderer
Wissenschaft deutlich absticht, wohl aber gegen echte kritische
Grundsaetze, von denen man also ruehmen kann:
ignavum, fucos, pecus a praesepibus arcent Virg.
[...]
--
Eppur si muove!
--
)o+
[final test...]
On Mar 11, 3:58 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> [testing again, extralong post...]
>
> On Mar 8, 9:33 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > [still testing...]
>
> > On Mar 6, 11:02 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 6, 11:01 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 6, 9:36 am, Hermes <astalder25@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
> > > > > [A look behind the scenes, never submitted anywhere else than
> > > > > alt.test...]
>
> > > > > Hi everybody,
>
> > > > > Here is a riddle: Can you guess the AC of someone from a public l=
ogo
> > > > > for a user account ?
>
> > > > > Here's the logo and charts for the birth date in 2 hour steps (I =
have
> > > > > added my naive blue-eyed guess as a "full moon" to the large imag=
e of
> > > > > the logo, arguably maybe also out of an urge to balance the large
> > > > > black area in the logo):
>
> > > > >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5IMWn5NZVI/AAAAAAAAAt4/CKZMSSRM=
CHc...
>
> > > > >http://lh6.ggpht.com/_M_Yn4lKv3Dw/S5ION-qsjPI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/N_p0AImZ=
b1U...
>
> > > > > For all that it appears to me, the logo depicts Catwoman wearing =
a
> > > > > Joker mask, which shows already some of the hidden complexity in =
the
> > > > > logo - two masks on top of each other is rather unusual in practi=
ce.
>
> > > > Amun, the "force behind the invisible wind" as Liz Greene writes
> > > > the moon in Aries, conjunct mine
> > > > that fated connection that may or may not be consciously registered=
on
> > > > the other side
> > > > without it, I am practically dead, and maybe the other side, too
> > > > harlekin in the comedia dell arte, etymologically apparently
> > > > "hellboy", like me, like she
> > > > left and right hand, power to create or destroy, too much lever for
> > > > the contemporary world
> > > > joker in batman, "you can't stand the truth"
> > > > yes, from famous scientists/astrologers, assumed general public,
> > > > usenet readers and posters, to good friends and relatives, I tried =
to
> > > > put things in a way that would be an acceptable compromise to all, =
but
> > > > nobody at all ever compromised a bit, and if they had, it would not
> > > > have helped in the end
> > > > doing this, trying to be right to all sides, almost wrecked me, tha=
t
> > > > is not the way to go
> > > > not that all I wrote and invented is made of gold, but a lot is
> > > > genuinely new and I produced a lot more such really new ideas than
> > > > anybody else I am aware of in these times
> > > > these things must be written down in a format that will be accessib=
le
> > > > to future readers, despite its contemporary apparent strangeness
> > > > sometimes
> > > > and it is my fate, sun-sun quincunx that keeps aparart, moon-moon
> > > > conjunction that forever melts together or persishes, as strange as=
it
> > > > may seem to outsiders
> > > > so, hide, write in secret, publish web site rarely, and leave it at
> > > > that, no more ads, no more usenet posts, maybe open-source software
> > > > "jexler" on the side
> > > > -- after all it is not me who is unable to integrate, as a Swiss I =
do
> > > > that all the time at work and in other things, no, in this case it =
is
> > > > the newness and fundamentality of the ideas, despite other opinions
> > > > today from all directions, despite all these attempts to bend thing=
s
> > > > so far that the key new concepts are lost
> > > > Amun
> > > > love you, p, stick to you (or "you") no matter what, have no choice=
, a
> > > > common "child" (exactphilosophy.net from discoveries.pdf on) rests
> > > > with you for all your life, there is nothing that you can do about
> > > > that...
> > > > sorry to all contemporary folks, but that this goes so hard and lik=
e
> > > > in a swamp is also your fault, so let me write my site in peace and
> > > > just ignore it...
> > > > future generations will thank you, cheesy, like the moon, or aries
> > > > like apple or anything really new (develop secretly, then announce)
> > > > also, maybe I will in the end not miss contemporary astrology all t=
hat
> > > > much, is good for learning the structure of symbols and learning to
> > > > apply them, but at some point, you should be able to read symbols
> > > > directly, in all that happens in the world...
> > > > bye, and thanks for all the fish :)
> > > > stay tuned for future releases of my web site, with all its (my and
> > > > her) quirks embossed for eternity in it, but also with some really
> > > > cool new stuff, unspoken of, guarded by those lone masked warriors
> > > > that nobody understands, oh well, maybe in a couple of years, there
> > > > will be more again, or maybe not, no matter, try again, fail again,
> > > > fail better (beckett)
> > > > but if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing gets hi=
s
> > > > tail in the water, there is nothing that would further
> > > > I:I :I:> Some background: The person is female, works or worked in =
"show
> > > > > business", although rather behind the scenes (costume/stage desig=
n),
> > > > > lives or lived in Prague (Czech Republic) and no, I do not have t=
he
> > > > > solution to the riddle, but am "tantalized" to get some clues... =
;)
>
> > > > > )o+
>
> > > > > --http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.chhttp://www.exact=
philos...
>
> > > PS: no, I have no clue about the AC, so what... ;)
>
> > [use fixed width font]
>
> > MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMMMMIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMMM=3DZDNMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMM:~DO7OINMMMMMMMMMM8MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMMI~=3DM=3DNMMM7M8$IZMMM+$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMMM~=3D=3DMMMMMMM7M$NNMOZIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMM8~=3D+ZZMMMMMMMMMZ8NO8NNMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMMM~~=3D+?77OOMMMZMMMMDZM88MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMM=3D=3D=3D?78DZ8MMMMZMMMMMMMDZMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMZ$?$O$O++,,.,,:+$8MMMMM?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMZI$7OM?O:,... .....,:+$8NMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMDD8ZIZ77.. ..$, ...~NNMDMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMN+DN7Z7=3D... . ....7:I8N:MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMMZ7$MMM?~:.:M... ...,~~8$?DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMM8I7INMM+,...MD. ...:NO+??MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMM7OZ$ZMMMI=3D,.... ..O:,:.=3D?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MMMMMM8ZDNMM?$7.... . ......:DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > 8NIMM?+I7OO8I=3DD$III.MO7OM$$+MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > MNO=3D~~7+?7$ODNMN87. .MMMDIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > M+O~=3D=3D+?II7Z8NNNNNMNMMMND$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > ?7~+++?II7$Z8NMDI877MNNNOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > ~N???I777$ZZOMM8$NO..MN8MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > $MZ7$$$O8OOZ8NM$OMNMN?+DMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > NMD7$$$Z8DDMNMN?MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
> > NMN888D8DDMMMM8$MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMD
>
> > )o+
>
> Franz Kafka
>
> Das Schweigen der Sirenen
>
> Beweis dessen, dass auch unzulaengliche, ja kindische Mittel zur
> Rettung dienen koennen:
>
> Um sich vor den Sirenen zu bewahren, stopfte sich Odysseus Wachs in
> die Ohren und liess sich am Mast festschmieden. aehnliches haetten
> natuerlich seit jeher alle Reisenden tun koennen, ausser denen, welche
> die Sirenen schon aus der Ferne verlockten, aber es war in der ganzen
> Welt bekannt, dass dies unmoeglich helfen konnte. Der Sang der Sirenen
> durchdrang alles, und die Leidenschaft der Verfuehrten haette mehr als
> Ketten und Mast gesprengt. Daran aber dachte Odysseus nicht, obwohl er
> davon vielleicht gehoert hatte. Er vertraute vollstaendig der Handvoll
> Wachs und dem Gebinde Ketten und in unschuldiger Freude ueber seine
> Mittelchen fuhr er den Sirenen entgegen.
>
> Nun haben aber die Sirenen eine noch schrecklichere Waffe als den
> Gesang, naemlich ihr Schweigen. Es ist zwar nicht geschehen, aber
> vielleicht denkbar, dass sich jemand vor ihrem Gesang gerettet haette,
> vor ihrem Schweigen gewiss nicht. Dem Gefuehl, aus eigener Kraft sie
> besiegt zu haben, der daraus folgenden alles fortreissenden
> ueberhebung kann nichts Irdisches widerstehen.
>
> Und tatsaechlich sangen, als Odysseus kam, die gewaltigen Saengerinnen
> nicht, sei es, dass sie glaubten, diesem Gegner koenne nur noch das
> Schweigen beikommen, sei es, dass der Anblick der Glueckseligkeit im
> Gesicht des Odysseus, der an nichts anderes als an Wachs und Ketten
> dachte, sie allen Gesang vergessen liess.
>
> Odysseus aber, um es so auszudruecken, hoerte ihr Schweigen nicht, er
> glaubte, sie saengen, und nur er sei behuetet, es zu hoeren. Fluechtig
> sah er zuerst die Wendungen ihrer Haelse, das tiefe Atmen, die
> traenenvollen Augen, den halb geoeffneten Mund, glaubte aber, dies
> gehoere zu den Arien, die ungehoert um ihn verklangen. Bald aber glitt
> alles an seinen in die Ferne gerichteten Blicken ab, die Sirenen
> verschwanden foermlich vor seiner Entschlossenheit, und gerade als er
> ihnen am naechsten war, wusste er nichts mehr von ihnen.
>
> Sie aber - schoener als jemals - streckten und drehten sich, liessen
> das schaurige Haar offen im Winde wehen und spannten die Krallen frei
> auf den Felsen. Sie wollten nicht mehr verfuehren, nur noch den
> Abglanz vom grossen Augenpaar des Odysseus wollten sie so lange als
> moeglich erhaschen.
>
> Haetten die Sirenen Bewusstsein, sie waeren damals vernichtet worden.
> So aber blieben sie, nur Odysseus ist ihnen entgangen.
>
> Es wird uebrigens noch ein Anhang hierzu ueberliefert. Odysseus, sagt
> man, war so listenreich, war ein solcher Fuchs, dass selbst die
> Schicksalsgoettin nicht in sein Innerstes dringen konnte. Vielleicht
> hat er, obwohl das mit Menschenverstand nicht mehr zu begreifen ist,
> wirklich gemerkt, dass die Sirenen schwiegen, und hat ihnen und den
> Goettern den obigen Scheinvorgang nur gewissermassen als Schild
> entgegengehalten.
>
> --
>
> Prolegomena
> zu
> einer jeden
> kuenftigen Metaphysik
> die
> als Wissenschaft
> wird auftreten koennen,
> von
> Immanuel Kant
>
> Riga, bey Johann Friedrich Hartknoch. 1783.
> ...
>
> read more =BB
The deeper you look, the more it's all Leo...
;)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
http://jexler.sourceforge.net/
On Jul 21, 12:45 am, "Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net> wrote:
> There is an extremely interesting mutual configuration that will occur on
> July 26, 2010. It is slowly moving into place and will become exact sometime
> in the early morning at about 6 AM EST on that day.
>
> The planets in play indicate a large, sudden, unexpected, violently
> explosive event.
>
> Iran nukes Israel?
> An assassination?
>
> I just don't know, but if there's anything to astrology at all, it should be
> big and notable.
Some observations "after the fact" (in the sense that the mentioned
point in time has already passed now, while at least some of the
astrological aspects still remain in place - hence analysis might
still reveal some things about the future...):
To me in Switzerland there were three events around the time frame of
last weekend that seem to fit together:
- A train accident in Switzerland in the mountains where a train with
mainly Japanese Tourists derailed, killing one passenger and wounded
several.
- The accident at Love Parade in Duisburg - a huge techno party
originally taking place in Berlin - in which about 19 people were
killed by physical pressure by the masses (about 1.5 million
visitors).
- A meeting I had with former coworkers last Thursday in which one guy
distributed CDs with photos of an event in late summer 2001 when we
still worked at the same company - the event took place, as I remember
a few days before 9/11.
The third event, points clearly at the n. node in Capricorn, around
9/11 events were triggered by Mars entering Capricorn and coming into
contact with the n.node. In my view and experience, the nodes are
gates, tensions between planets are released when they come into
contact with the nodes. In autumn 2001 there was a relatively big car
accident in the Gotthard tunnel in Switzerland involving a truck that
took fire. Also in autumn 2001 was the grounding of Swissair. Railways
and airplanes also appear in the first two events mentioned. The
railway accident is strange so far, at least the reason is not clear
yet, it was not an axis that broke or some other obvious negligence,
train driving is generally quite safe in Switzerland, things are
usually well maintained. At Love Parade, people coming from the
railway station had to go through a tunnel (gate, nodes, also Leo,
glyph looks similar to n.node glyph) to get to an old airfield.
Railways and airplanes point towards Uranus, and the n.node (the 8th
thing in a chart before there were Uranus, Neptune, etc. after the 7th
planet Saturn). The tension of the squares from Saturn/Mars and Uranus/
Jupiter with Pluto could unload through the gate of the n.node. (The
first 18 then 19 reported deaths remind also of the nodes and their
18.5 year cycle.) The nodes will come still closer to Pluto in the
coming months, so I guess it will depend on how much tension there is
in the world of the kind represented by that t-square, so maybe some
things of that sort could happen. Often the moment when things break
(like WWII, 9/11 etc.) are when the sun is in Virgo, but unlike
probably most other astrologers writing in this thread, I did not look
much ahead into upcoming astrological constellations.
To avoid such tension to break up violently, maybe trying to avoid
some hubris in the first place would be a good idea. In the case of
Love Parade, it used to be in Berlin and as far as I remember always
in July with the sun in Cancer. So taking away that party from Artemis
(out of one of her many cities, recognizable by the Bear in Ber-lin,
and out of her sign, Cancer ruled by the moon) seems not to be very
wise, even if in time only moved to her twin brother's sign, where she
is certainly in general a good guest.
)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
> tvp
On Jul 26, 10:45 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 12:45 am, "Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > There is an extremely interesting mutual configuration that will occur on
> > July 26, 2010. It is slowly moving into place and will become exact sometime
> > in the early morning at about 6 AM EST on that day.
>
> > The planets in play indicate a large, sudden, unexpected, violently
> > explosive event.
>
> > Iran nukes Israel?
> > An assassination?
>
> > I just don't know, but if there's anything to astrology at all, it should be
> > big and notable.
>
> Some observations "after the fact" (in the sense that the mentioned
> point in time has already passed now, while at least some of the
> astrological aspects still remain in place - hence analysis might
> still reveal some things about the future...):
>
> To me in Switzerland there were three events around the time frame of
> last weekend that seem to fit together:
> - A train accident in Switzerland in the mountains where a train with
> mainly Japanese Tourists derailed, killing one passenger and wounded
> several.
> - The accident at Love Parade in Duisburg - a huge techno party
> originally taking place in Berlin - in which about 19 people were
> killed by physical pressure by the masses (about 1.5 million
> visitors).
> - A meeting I had with former coworkers last Thursday in which one guy
> distributed CDs with photos of an event in late summer 2001 when we
> still worked at the same company - the event took place, as I remember
> a few days before 9/11.
>
> The third event, points clearly at the n. node in Capricorn, around
> 9/11 events were triggered by Mars entering Capricorn and coming into
> contact with the n.node. In my view and experience, the nodes are
> gates, tensions between planets are released when they come into
> contact with the nodes. In autumn 2001 there was a relatively big car
> accident in the Gotthard tunnel in Switzerland involving a truck that
> took fire. Also in autumn 2001 was the grounding of Swissair. Railways
> and airplanes also appear in the first two events mentioned. The
> railway accident is strange so far, at least the reason is not clear
> yet, it was not an axis that broke or some other obvious negligence,
> train driving is generally quite safe in Switzerland, things are
> usually well maintained. At Love Parade, people coming from the
> railway station had to go through a tunnel (gate, nodes, also Leo,
> glyph looks similar to n.node glyph) to get to an old airfield.
>
> Railways and airplanes point towards Uranus, and the n.node (the 8th
> thing in a chart before there were Uranus, Neptune, etc. after the 7th
> planet Saturn). The tension of the squares from Saturn/Mars and Uranus/
> Jupiter with Pluto could unload through the gate of the n.node. (The
> first 18 then 19 reported deaths remind also of the nodes and their
> 18.5 year cycle.) The nodes will come still closer to Pluto in the
> coming months, so I guess it will depend on how much tension there is
> in the world of the kind represented by that t-square, so maybe some
> things of that sort could happen. Often the moment when things break
> (like WWII, 9/11 etc.) are when the sun is in Virgo, but unlike
> probably most other astrologers writing in this thread, I did not look
> much ahead into upcoming astrological constellations.
>
> To avoid such tension to break up violently, maybe trying to avoid
> some hubris in the first place would be a good idea. In the case of
> Love Parade, it used to be in Berlin and as far as I remember always
> in July with the sun in Cancer. So taking away that party from Artemis
> (out of one of her many cities, recognizable by the Bear in Ber-lin,
> and out of her sign, Cancer ruled by the moon) seems not to be very
> wise, even if in time only moved to her twin brother's sign, where she
> is certainly in general a good guest.
>
> )o+
> --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
>
>
>
> > tvp
Two corrections (sorry out of practice posting):
- s.node in Capricorn around 9/11, of course
- both Uranus (Railways) and Neptune (Airplanes) involved, assignment
8-Uranus - n.node and 9-Neptune - s.node partly interchangable
"always two there are, a n. and a s.node..." - "yoda"
)o+
On Jul 27, 2:18 am, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Jul 26, 1:50 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 26, 10:45 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 21, 12:45 am, "Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > There is an extremely interesting mutual configuration that will occur on
> > > > July 26, 2010. It is slowly moving into place and will become exact sometime
> > > > in the early morning at about 6 AM EST on that day.
>
> > > > The planets in play indicate a large, sudden, unexpected, violently
> > > > explosive event.
>
> > > > Iran nukes Israel?
> > > > An assassination?
>
> > > > I just don't know, but if there's anything to astrology at all, it should be
> > > > big and notable.
>
> > > Some observations "after the fact" (in the sense that the mentioned
> > > point in time has already passed now, while at least some of the
> > > astrological aspects still remain in place - hence analysis might
> > > still reveal some things about the future...):
>
> > > To me in Switzerland there were three events around the time frame of
> > > last weekend that seem to fit together:
> > > - A train accident in Switzerland in the mountains where a train with
> > > mainly Japanese Tourists derailed, killing one passenger and wounded
> > > several.
> > > - The accident at Love Parade in Duisburg - a huge techno party
> > > originally taking place in Berlin - in which about 19 people were
> > > killed by physical pressure by the masses (about 1.5 million
> > > visitors).
> > > - A meeting I had with former coworkers last Thursday in which one guy
> > > distributed CDs with photos of an event in late summer 2001 when we
> > > still worked at the same company - the event took place, as I remember
> > > a few days before 9/11.
>
> > > The third event, points clearly at the n. node in Capricorn, around
> > > 9/11 events were triggered by Mars entering Capricorn and coming into
> > > contact with the n.node. In my view and experience, the nodes are
> > > gates, tensions between planets are released when they come into
> > > contact with the nodes. In autumn 2001 there was a relatively big car
> > > accident in the Gotthard tunnel in Switzerland involving a truck that
> > > took fire. Also in autumn 2001 was the grounding of Swissair. Railways
> > > and airplanes also appear in the first two events mentioned. The
> > > railway accident is strange so far, at least the reason is not clear
> > > yet, it was not an axis that broke or some other obvious negligence,
> > > train driving is generally quite safe in Switzerland, things are
> > > usually well maintained. At Love Parade, people coming from the
> > > railway station had to go through a tunnel (gate, nodes, also Leo,
> > > glyph looks similar to n.node glyph) to get to an old airfield.
>
> > > Railways and airplanes point towards Uranus, and the n.node (the 8th
> > > thing in a chart before there were Uranus, Neptune, etc. after the 7th
> > > planet Saturn). The tension of the squares from Saturn/Mars and Uranus/
> > > Jupiter with Pluto could unload through the gate of the n.node. (The
> > > first 18 then 19 reported deaths remind also of the nodes and their
> > > 18.5 year cycle.) The nodes will come still closer to Pluto in the
> > > coming months, so I guess it will depend on how much tension there is
> > > in the world of the kind represented by that t-square, so maybe some
> > > things of that sort could happen. Often the moment when things break
> > > (like WWII, 9/11 etc.) are when the sun is in Virgo, but unlike
> > > probably most other astrologers writing in this thread, I did not look
> > > much ahead into upcoming astrological constellations.
>
> > > To avoid such tension to break up violently, maybe trying to avoid
> > > some hubris in the first place would be a good idea. In the case of
> > > Love Parade, it used to be in Berlin and as far as I remember always
> > > in July with the sun in Cancer. So taking away that party from Artemis
> > > (out of one of her many cities, recognizable by the Bear in Ber-lin,
> > > and out of her sign, Cancer ruled by the moon) seems not to be very
> > > wise, even if in time only moved to her twin brother's sign, where she
> > > is certainly in general a good guest.
>
> > > )o+
> > > --http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
>
> > > > tvp
>
> > Two corrections (sorry out of practice posting):
>
> > - s.node in Capricorn around 9/11, of course
> > - both Uranus (Railways) and Neptune (Airplanes) involved, assignment
> > 8-Uranus - n.node and 9-Neptune - s.node partly interchangable
>
> > "always two there are, a n. and a s.node..." - "yoda"
>
> > )o+- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hey I got your postcard in the mail with the Elements on it:-)
:-)
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Academichttp://www.astroconsulting.com/SDSU
> Artistichttp://www.e-wollmann.com/
On Jul 30, 1:32 pm, "whatever@twixtntween.com" <Jyeshta> wrote:
> Showing their true colors, Chelsea's crooked, corrupt, detestable
> parents are spending millions on her wedding (a half million just
> for *flowers*?!), whilst millions in the U.S. are struggling for
> food and shelter.
>
> Chelsea, a Pisces who probably feels that "special"
> native-Piscean-entitlement, and who always struck me as
> particularly naive, will not have a happy (or long) marriage,
> because of the especially rotten current astrological
> configuration.
>
> If this will bring unbearable grief and misery to mama and papa
> Clinton, who in so many ways quietly worsened things so very much
> for the elderly and most needy, *bring it on*.
"Let them eat cake"! :(
Speaking about "true colors": Did anybody notice the abundance of red,
white and black (or dark gray) in all kinds of graphical design
lately? Not only in relatively short-lived designs like web pages or
store decorations or clothes, but also in company logos that are not
changed so quickly - starting to make me feel like this is some kind
of unconscious, collective conspiracy, especially after some analysis,
as follows...
A flag with horizontal lines in the order (top-down) black-white-red
was used by the Nazis in Germany:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany#Nazi_Germany
Based on older German flags with those colors, see above article for
details; and, of course, the infamous Swastika flag used these three
colors, too.
The flag of Egypt has also horizontal lines in these colors, this time
in the order red-white-black (and an eagle on the white strip).
According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Egypt
"The white band symbolizes the bloodless nature of the Revolution
itself. The black band symbolizes the end of the oppression of the
Egyptian people at the hands of the monarchy, and foreign
imperialism."
"The same horizontal tricolor is used by Iraq, Syria, and Yemen (and
formerly Libya), the only difference being the presence (or absence)
of distinguishing national emblems in the white band."
Now, these three colors are the color of the Moon - each color
representing a phase of the moon or one of the triple moon goddesses.
white-red-black, waxing-full-waning, e.g. Artemis-Selene-Hecate
Robert Graves in "The Greek Myths":
"56.1 [...] The Argives worshipped the moon as a cow, because the
horned new moon was regarded as the source of all water, and therefore
of cattle fodder. Her three colors: white for the new moon, red for
the harvest moon, black for the moon when it waned, represented the
three ages of the Moon-goddess - Maiden, Nymph, and Crone (see 90.3)."
"90.3 White, red, and black, the colors of Minos's heifer, were also
those of Io the Moon-cow (see 56.1); those of Augeias's sacred bulls
(see 127.1); and on a Cretan vase ([...]) those of the Minos bull
which carried off Europe. Moreover, clay or plaster tripods sacred to
the Cretan goddess found at Ninou Khani [...] were painted in white,
red and black, and according to Ctesisa's _Indica_, there were the
colors of the unicorn's horn - the unicorn, as a calendar symbol
represented the Moon-goddess's dominion over the five seasons of the
Osirian year, each of which contributed part of an animal to its
composition."
"127.1 [...] [About Augeia's cattle:] The number of heads in such
heards was 350, representing twelve complete lunations less the sacred
five-day holiday of the Egyptian year (see 42.1); that they were lunar
cattle was proved by their red, white, and black colors (see 90.3);
and the [twelve] white bulls represent these twelve lunations."
In terms of the Uranus cycle alone, we are now somewhere near the end
of the 1920's. The Nazis came to power in 1930 and the war started in
1939, with Uranus in Taurus. With Uranus in Pisces there comes a
collective and progressing lack of emotional protection, of emotional
and physical boundaries, things cannot be kept from flowing through.
Such a mixing of influences was the unconscious ground for some things
that grew in the 1930's. People are very strange at the moment in my
perception, the surface has become very thin above the collective
unconscious chaos. But still, does not feel to me like it would just
go off within a short time, rather also over a decade or so, and not
necessarily repeating history, if some more protection between
individuals and countries etc. is gently restored, in the interest of
most people's unconscious wishes, despite maybe a remaining shallow
conscious ideal of a global society.
But why the moon now? As a representation of the unconscious? Or am I
missing some connections with the moon in current or coming
constellations besides Uranus in Taurus in about seven years?
Anyway, just my two cents... ;)
"... and something blue" is maybe not bad in that sense...
)o+
I wrote:
: "... and something blue" is maybe not bad in that sense...
Maybe roughly like this:
- "something old": Crone, waning moon
- "something new": Maiden, waxing moon
- "something borrowed": Life borrowed from "the great mother the
moon", Nymph, full moon, marriage, children
- "something blue": The playful, creative, poetic side of the moon, $
\pi$ :)
)o+
On Jul 30, 9:20 pm, Cujo DeSockpuppet <cujo@petitmorte.net> wrote:
> CFA wrote innews:3urqo9.aip.17.1@news.alt.net:
>
>
>
> > whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
>
> >>Showing their true colors, Chelsea's crooked, corrupt, detestable
> >>parents are spending millions on her wedding (a half million just
> >>for *flowers*?!), whilst millions in the U.S. are struggling for
> >>food and shelter.
>
> >>Chelsea, a Pisces who probably feels that "special"
> >>native-Piscean-entitlement, and who always struck me as
> >>particularly naive, will not have a happy (or long) marriage,
> >>because of the especially rotten current astrological
> >>configuration.
>
> >>If this will bring unbearable grief and misery to mama and papa
> >>Clinton, who in so many ways quietly worsened things so very much
> >>for the elderly and most needy, *bring it on*.
>
> > "But I'm not bitter."
>
> Now you know why this kook has Formosa protection.
Formosa apparently means "beautiful" in Portugese, so astrologically
would point towards Venus and the signs it rules (Taurus, Libra).
>
> --
> Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in dfw.*,
> alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych. Supreme Holy
> Overlord of alt.fucknozzles. Winner of the 8/2000, 2/2003 & 4/2007 HL&S
> award. July 2005 Hammer of Thor. Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse
> Memorial Dog Whistle - 12/2005 & 4/2008. COOSN-266-06-01895.
> "I won long ago. They just don't realize its over." - Ed wins another
> important court decision in the Court of Kookiness and Delusion.
I saw Ed's recent post where he said that he is "not a COOK" (and
watched the video). :)
Right, I guess most astrologers have a way of mixing many things
together at the same time (like a cook ingredients for a meal), global
and local, inner feeling and outer reality, theory and practice,
conscious and unconscious, which is certainly nice, but Ed is not
doing that much, he is different, which is likely why he really seems
to be winning, or in way already has. Or maybe I am just too
idealistic in that respect...
If you imagine yourself in 5 years, do you think you will still be
here, posting? Do you think Ed will still be here, posting? If you
were not you, who would you bet a million dollars on if you had to?
Anyway, de quoi je me mele? (de nouveau...)
)o+
On Jul 31, 10:01 pm, "whatever@twixtntween.com" <Jyeshta> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:10:14 -0700 (PDT), Hermes
>
>
>
> <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 30, 9:20 pm, Cujo DeSockpuppet <cujo@petitmorte.net> wrote:
> >> CFA wrote innews:3urqo9.aip.17.1@news.alt.net:
>
> >> > whatever@twixtntween.com wrote:
>
> >> >>Showing their true colors, Chelsea's crooked, corrupt, detestable
> >> >>parents are spending millions on her wedding (a half million just
> >> >>for *flowers*?!), whilst millions in the U.S. are struggling for
> >> >>food and shelter.
>
> >> >>Chelsea, a Pisces who probably feels that "special"
> >> >>native-Piscean-entitlement, and who always struck me as
> >> >>particularly naive, will not have a happy (or long) marriage,
> >> >>because of the especially rotten current astrological
> >> >>configuration.
>
> >> >>If this will bring unbearable grief and misery to mama and papa
> >> >>Clinton, who in so many ways quietly worsened things so very much
> >> >>for the elderly and most needy, *bring it on*.
>
> >> > "But I'm not bitter."
>
> >> Now you know why this kook has Formosa protection.
>
> >Formosa apparently means "beautiful" in Portugese, so astrologically
> >would point towards Venus and the signs it rules (Taurus, Libra).
>
> Oh, I like that. :-) And it fits! (Unlike so many other things
> lately.)
>
> But what the troll really means is that some "well-meaning"
> people seem to think I'm suicidal, so they're being "nice" and
> leaving me be (really?).
>
> But then, they've also said, in the past, what an absolutely
> horrible [insert obscenity here] I am, so why should they care
> even if I were suicidal?
>
>
>
> >> Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in dfw.*,
> >> alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych. Supreme Holy
> >> Overlord of alt.fucknozzles. Winner of the 8/2000, 2/2003 & 4/2007 HL&S
> >> award. July 2005 Hammer of Thor. Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse
> >> Memorial Dog Whistle - 12/2005 & 4/2008. COOSN-266-06-01895.
> >> "I won long ago. They just don't realize its over." - Ed wins another
> >> important court decision in the Court of Kookiness and Delusion.
>
> >I saw Ed's recent post where he said that he is "not a COOK" (and
> >watched the video). :)
> >Right, I guess most astrologers have a way of mixing many things
> >together at the same time (like a cook ingredients for a meal), global
> >and local, inner feeling and outer reality, theory and practice,
> >conscious and unconscious, which is certainly nice, but Ed is not
> >doing that much, he is different, which is likely why he really seems
> >to be winning, or in way already has. Or maybe I am just too
> >idealistic in that respect...
>
> >If you imagine yourself in 5 years, do you think you will still be
> >here, posting? Do you think Ed will still be here, posting? If you
> >were not you, who would you bet a million dollars on if you had to?
> >Anyway, de quoi je me mele? (de nouveau...)
>
> I love your subtleties. :-)
Thanks! :)
I hope you don't mind the "Curiosity" post, with Saturn in Libra, I
thought investing some lines into maybe one or two additonal angles of
looking at things might not be completely "off scale"...
The way I experience people outside in the streets lately (in the last
one to two years or so) is something like this: Concerned only with
themselves (and/or listening to music or talking on the phone), when
they are in a small group talking to each other and almost completely
ignoring others, very impatient and ruthless in a way - the
combination of these things makes walking or driving around very
risky, there is always someone walking or driving into my way and -
right of way or not - expecting me to stop or make room etc. - and
when I make room, like for example today when shopping I let one lady
with her shopping cart pass, she did not react at all and then when I
walked, the next lady with a shopping cart got angry because I wanted
to pass now - people not looking, not caring, very asymmetric, and not
healthy - I hope this is really just my s.node firduria which should
end in a few days at my birthday (August 7th)... Anyway, feels really
like in a tank full of sharks, or in the sea full of fish that also
have no right of way and don't care about each other, like when two
fish swarms cross, somehow collectively orchestrated and the
individual fish remain stupid like fish - I guess I am more of an
"octopus", even though I try like a real octopus who can change color
and/or texture and some even mimic some kind of flat fish with their
arms together, I think as an "octopus" I will never blend in
completely with the "herd", because I don't to blend in that much...
Anyway, thanks for the replies...
)o+
> >)o+
In "Masaryk on Thought and Life, Conversations with Karel Capek",
there is the following dialogue between Capek (writer, e.g. inventor
of the "robot") and Masaryk (first president of Czechoslovakia):
Capek: Well, all right, what is truth?
Masaryk: Ah, Pilate's question. Will you please tell me what those
birds are in the park?
Capek: Magpies, Mr. President.
Masaryk: Your eyes are better. Aren't they pigeons?
Capek: No, magpies.
Masaryk: Do you know that for certain?
Capek: I do. I have been looking at them already quite a time, and
carefully. Pigeons fly differently.
Masaryk: So, you see, you yourself quoted the marks of truth [...]
In a German translation, it is craws vs. pigeons, which would hint
directly at Apollo who turned craws who were originally white (in
myth) black for something I do not remember off hand. That way it
would be quite a conventional comparison, but Czech "poetry of life"
makes it different - Masaryk:
* Politics, too, demand a balance between reason and feeling. Even
* in the most delicate political situation we must notice and plan
* carefully, what, how and on whom we can count; it has to be as
* accurate as mathematics; our feelings must never err in their
* observations and calculations. But the aim, the ideal, is not
* laid down by reason alone, but by feeling also. The means are
* dictated by reason; but we can change the situation to suit our
* aim, we can introduce new elements into it, something of our own.
* That is creation; that is the poetry of life."
http://homepage.mac.com/williamszone/dostal/chapter12/chapter12.html
A magpie is both black and white, both sun and moon, and a curious
animal, which reminds me of how the US detective captured the magician
in the "Great Cat Fairytale" story by Capek, simply by his curiosity.
Reminds me of me, too.
See PS in my monthly "exactphilosophy.net" posts to
alt.astrology.tropical for more details about Libuse's secrets...
So, I guess it all might be just life (sun and moon, Leo and Cancer)
who have been sleeping with two collective planets in winter and now
the third, but spring has already a little bit started with Uranus'
brief visit to Aries (already retrograde again and will go back to
Pisces).
By the way, Chelsea's husband to be has a Mystic Rectangle in his
birth chart. This might be the problem in their relation in a way,
their synastries do not go well together in my feeling, the day today
is not bad for a stable wedding in my view, though. Of course, the
more and more emerging aristocracy in the USA where people only marry
within their "kind" is disturbing, but for the marriage itself that
would maybe be mixing up more than necessary into analysis - I imagine
her parents are simply happy that she found a prince willing to marry
her. I won't mind if it works well for them.
Does Saturn leading conjunct the moon make bitter or make the moon
more realistic, maybe even more realistic than it likes? ;)
)o+
I wrote:
> So, I guess it all might be just life (sun and moon, Leo and Cancer)
> who have been sleeping with two collective planets in winter and now
> the third, but spring has already a little bit started with Uranus'
> brief visit to Aries (already retrograde again and will go back to
> Pisces).
Maybe, the new book by David Icke is apparently called "Human Race Get
off Your Knees" and subtitled "The Lion Sleeps No More".
Cover with the lion: http://davidickebooks.co.uk/images/uploads/humanrace300.jpg
David Icke, is by the way the guy who says that the very rich are not
human, but instead reptiles or more precisely what is seen of
transdimensional extraterrestrials in our world and, I forgot, for
some reason they need to drink human blood to keep their human form.
(I hope I got all the facts right, else just google...)
(Side remark: So Cthulhu a lion? :)
)o+
I wrote:
> Cover with the lion:http://davidickebooks.co.uk/images/uploads/humanrace300.jpg
ASCII art rendition (use fixed width font, but original jpg is way
better):
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```.```..dWHHOjJkdkXWNWNWNHNM#NMMMMMMMM
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On Aug 1, 5:19 am, Shariboone <islappedwollmannlong@bitch.org> wrote:
> Just a scant few days ago, these Asshologers were predicting all sorts
> of gloom and doom for the planet, based on some retarded asstrological
> analysis, claiming shit was gonna rain down on the 26th...oh, then they
> changed it to the 27th..then they realized the stuff they were cherry
> picking happened even earlier than that. So they said, YEAH, oh, we
> meant the 29th and 30th!
>
> Well NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENED, DIPSHITS!
>
> You sure are quiet now about your FAILED PREDICTIONS!
>
> That's right,, crawl back into the woodwork because ASSTROLOGY is
> WORTHLESS BULLSHIT and SO ARE YOU!
Habsburg?
)o+
On Aug 1, 8:17 am, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 5:19 am, Shariboone <islappedwollmannlong.@bitch.org> wrote:
>
> > Just a scant few days ago, these Asshologers were predicting all sorts
> > of gloom and doom for the planet, based on some retarded asstrological
> > analysis, claiming shit was gonna rain down on the 26th...oh, then they
> > changed it to the 27th..then they realized the stuff they were cherry
> > picking happened even earlier than that. So they said, YEAH, oh, we
> > meant the 29th and 30th!
>
> > Well NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENED, DIPSHITS!
>
> > You sure are quiet now about your FAILED PREDICTIONS!
>
> > That's right,, crawl back into the woodwork because ASSTROLOGY is
> > WORTHLESS BULLSHIT and SO ARE YOU!
>
> Habsburg?
>
> )o+
Actually my "predictions" were pretty unspecific, like "does not feel
to me like it would just go off within a short time, rather also over
a decade or so, and not necessarily repeating history" (i.e. likely
nothing now, which is always the most probable option, and maybe or
maybe not something in the next 10 years or so). Or "their synastries
do not go well together in my feeling, the day today is not bad for a
stable wedding in my view, though" (i.e. their marriage might be long
or not, but maybe not happy, of which the happiness part is difficult
to determine objectively). The "Habsburg?" comment above means roughly
"was the marriage yesterday the start of a dynasty, with them and
their children taking high positions in government and
companies?" (i.e. very likely considering how things are evolving
overall, and - but read on...) and combined with "let them eat cake",
will there be a new US revolution and will they maybe have their heads
chopped off as part of it? - i.e. is that the beginning, the end of
the beginning, the beginning of the end, or what? - again way too open
as predictions to verify, and only loosely based on astrology...
So instead a very specific prediction: In Switzerland - *today!* -
there will be literally thousands of fires burning throughout the
country and there will be literally millions of explosions in the sky,
and some people will be giving more or less patriotic speeches to a
listening public while standing besides the fires...
(Today is the national holiday in Switzerland, with lots of fireworks
and more traditionally fires and people giving speeches besides them
(about any topics they see related to the country), and, of course,
some firemen will be standing nearby with water hoses just for the
very unlikely case something goes wrong with the fire ;)
)o+
I wrote:
> "was the marriage yesterday the start of a dynasty, with them and
> their children taking high positions in government and
> companies?" [...]
I think "I got it", as follows...
In an article by Charles Harvey about the sun-Neptune cycle there used
to be a hand drawing (by Harvey, I presume) of the cycle of the zodiac
and at the winter solstice (start of Capricorn) it said roughly "plant
seeds" and at the summer solstice (start of Cancer) it said roughly
"fruitation". In a T-Square, there are two (or more) planets in
opposition and one (or more) at a square to all planets in opposition.
This puts that planet - Pluto in this case - in a somewhat
advantageous position, if the planet can stand the tension from both
sides, he can shape things as he likes, because the planets in
opposition will always disagree, so he can on a case-by-case basis go
with one or the other of them, like the coin tossing character in
Batman. (I think I wrote roughly the same lines of reasoning not too
long ago in usenet.) So, the Machiavellian opportunity in this case
might have been to create a dynasty (plant seeds for a generational
tree, early Capricorn) based on power and money (Pluto). Whether that
will turn out to be so will be seen when looking at the fruits (or
not) of this marriage in a few hundred years - my prediction here and
now is that this could with maybe 60-70% probability become quite big,
i.e. really a dynasty with noticable influence on world history. I
wonder what kind of specific effects this symbolic fusion of
protestantism and judaism could have on world history.
)o+
On Aug 1, 12:47 pm, Hermes <astalder25@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wrote:
> > "was the marriage yesterday the start of a dynasty, with them and
> > their children taking high positions in government and
> > companies?" [...]
>
> I think "I got it", as follows...
>
> In an article by Charles Harvey about the sun-Neptune cycle there used
> to be a hand drawing (by Harvey, I presume) of the cycle of the zodiac
> and at the winter solstice (start of Capricorn) it said roughly "plant
> seeds" and at the summer solstice (start of Cancer) it said roughly
> "fruitation". In a T-Square, there are two (or more) planets in
> opposition and one (or more) at a square to all planets in opposition.
> This puts that planet - Pluto in this case - in a somewhat
> advantageous position, if the planet can stand the tension from both
> sides, he can shape things as he likes, because the planets in
> opposition will always disagree, so he can on a case-by-case basis go
> with one or the other of them, like the coin tossing character in
> Batman. (I think I wrote roughly the same lines of reasoning not too
> long ago in usenet.) So, the Machiavellian opportunity in this case
> might have been to create a dynasty (plant seeds for a generational
> tree, early Capricorn) based on power and money (Pluto). Whether that
> will turn out to be so will be seen when looking at the fruits (or
> not) of this marriage in a few hundred years - my prediction here and
> now is that this could with maybe 60-70% probability become quite big,
> i.e. really a dynasty with noticable influence on world history. I
> wonder what kind of specific effects this symbolic fusion of
> protestantism and judaism could have on world history.
>
> )o+
Oops, forgot to fix the subject ;)
)o+
On Jul 9, 10:07 pm, "A B" <a@a.uk> wrote:
> "Hannelore Goos" <Formular@meineWebsite.unten> wrote on 8th June:
>
>
>
> > Am Tue, 6 Jul 2010 16:30:28 -0500 schrieb A B:
> >> Has anybody here any opinions on how to interpret a Libra ascendant? It
> >> rarely seems to have the meaning you'd assume it would have. I've just
> >> been
> >> looking at J. B. Priestley's chart, for instance. I don't think anyone
> >> would describe him as appearing terribly refined, charming, or
> >> unconfrontational; but he's got Libra rising. He has Saturn and Uranus
> >> in
> >> the 1st House, but still, what exactly is the Ascending sign itself doing
> >> in
> >> his case? I've noticed this in other charts, too, although I can't think
> >> of
> >> any off-hand. The most notorious example, of course, is Adolf Hitler.
>
> > The German astrologer Doebereiner counts Libra to the "cruel" signs. Cruel
> > in the sense, that a certain princible is so strong, that destruction of
> > the individual is included in order to follow the princible. For Libra
> > this
> > princible is unity.
> > The other cruel sign - following Doebereiner - is Taurus. Here the leading
> > principle is the welfare of the herd.
>
> > Well, Hitler had both: sun in Taurus and ascendant Libra. He's the very
> > prominent example for this theory.
>
> That seems to ring a bell. I'll have to see if I can find that anywhere
> else. It certainly makes sense in Hitler's case, although it doesn't seem
> to fit the others quite so neatly. Of course, all the signs have their own
> particular agenda - I wonder why Libra and Taurus should be considered to be
> so much more ruthless than the others?
>
> I don't know why the group's so quiet just now. Seems to happen every so
> often. There are still a few people dropping in occasionally, though, so
> it's worth hanging around. Bound to pick up soon. Wonder if there's
> anything astrological about that? I must have a look at the group's
> transits some time.
Starting a post with a reference to Hitler is usually a bad start for
a long thread, at least according to Godwin's Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
"[...] there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet
discussion forums that once such a comparison [to Nazis or Hitler] is
made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has
automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle
itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's law."
About Hitler's Chart. If you start with the chart ruler, Venus (AC
Libra => Venus), you find that all other planets and signs are "under"
Venus, i.e. "ruled" by Venus:
Venus
- Taurus
- Mars
- Aries
- Mercury
- Gemini
- Pluto
- Scorpio.
- Neptune
- Pisces.
- Virgo.
- DC
- Scorpio.
- Sun
- Leo
- Saturn
- Capricorn
- Jupiter
- Sagittarius.
- Pisces.
- Moon
- Cancer
- North Node
- South Node
- Aquarius
- IC
- MC
- Libra
- Uranus
- Aquarius
- IC
- AC
The Jupiter/Moon conjunction in the 3rd house deserves special mention
(and it is shared by George W. Bush, in his case in Libra). C.G. Jung
mentions in Aion that traditionally different religions had been
associated with conjunctions of Jupiter with other planets:
Jupiter/Saturn: Jewish
Jupiter/Venus: Muslim
Jupiter/Mercury: Christian
Jupiter/Moon: Antichrist
The abstract balance or dividing line between what is human and has
human rights and who/what has not (different race, animal, plant,
matter, etc.) has been shifted by both men in questionable ways. If
you are on the wrong scale pan, so to speak, the industrial machine
can be applied to you in any way. In that sense, the theme is also one
of the Age of Aquarius, between Aquarius and Leo, collective vs.
individual interest. Libra is the middle air sign, evolving in a way
from Gemini to Aquarius, fire to water in my model, so Libra tends to
decide towards Aquarius, water (love/fate).
With regard to cruelty in the immediate sense, maybe someone like
Mengele (Pisces sun, where Venus is exalted) fits maybe better than
Hitler, but also in Mengele's case there are indirect references to
Libra in his chart (planets at midpoint of two other planets) as I
posted once.
)o+
> --
> All the best,
> A. B.
> My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check that
> account very often.
On Jul 25, 10:17 pm, "Edmond H. Wollmann" <arcturianone@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Now, this Full Moon is a beautiful manifestation of what is called a
> Mystic Rectangle. The full moon is an opposition, and the Saturn/
> Uranus-Jupiter is an opposition. Oppositions reflect awareness, and a
> full moon is illumination of certain archetypes. These two sets of
> oppositions are then sextile and trine each other forming a Mystic
> Rectangle.
>
> A mystic rectangle indicates the potential to incorporate and
> integrate the awareness derived from the sextiles and trines between
> the two. I have one of these formations in my natal chart. Oppositions
> require resolution, and sextiles and trines provide them. When this
> energy is simply acted upon with integrity, it manifests as intuitive
> or mystical knowingness.
Thanks a lot for this post, I must admit that even though I have been
doing astrology for more that 12 years now, I never heard of the name
"Mystic Recangle" for this aspect figure.
I know (or at least knew) someone with all planets except the moon as
part of a Mystic Square (Jupiter in Taurus opposite Neptune in
Scorpio, Sun/Venus/Saturn/Mercury in Pisces more or less all opposite
Pluto/Uranus/Mars in Virgo; and the Moon in Aries).
Always gave me the impression that this figure alone can be quite
moody or shaken when the moon (or another planet) transits. When the
moon (or planet) is in the middle of one of the oppositions, there is
a t-square to both of the opposing planets and a quincunx and a semi-
sextile to the others; when the moon (or planet) moves forward one
sign, it becomes *all* trines and sextiles; only to be another t-
square plus quincunx and semi-sextile one more sign ahead - quite a
shakeup within only 5 days in case of the moon...
I wonder where the "mystic" comes from...
Minimal style associations in my system:
- opposition - 2 - air - moon
- trine - 3 - water - venus
- sextile - 6 - transformation of air - jupiter
)o+
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 2010 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
> Astrological Consultinghttp://www.astroconsulting.com/
> Academichttp://www.astroconsulting.com/SDSU
> Artistichttp://www.e-wollmann.com/
[use fixed width font, or see web site]
(C) 2002-now Alain Stalder
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Welcome
I present a way of looking at the world here. That way or idea is
not something that can be proven. But some of the fruits it might
grow into might be considered for becoming part of existing systems
of thought.
In that sense, this site is maybe for future readers only, not
conceivable by contemporary visitors.
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zuerich, Switzerland) and am doing this
as my hobby. :)
Alain Stalder
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Welcome
way
- space and time
- metamorphosis
- greek philosophy
- i ching
evolutions
- mixed feelings
- elemental cycles
- odyssey
References
Archive
Links
way
After defining elements from immediate perception of the world,
inspired by Kant and Schopenhauer, I relate these elements to
physics, the ancient Greek elements, and to the trigrams of the
Chinese I Ching.
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space and time
Imagine that you have just now started to look at the world.
[image (see web site)]
One of the first things that you notice is space. There is you and
an outside world that you can see, and you can see more than one
thing. What separates you and what you can see, and what separates
the different things that you see, is space in its most immediate
definition.
Then you also quickly notice that some things move and others do
not. This is time, again in its most immediate definition, as motion
or being at rest.
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Things can rest or move outside and inside the mind. Thus there are
a priori 4 different kinds of things: What moves outside, what rests
outside, what moves inside, and what rests inside. Let me call them
elements and give them the following names: _emo_, _ero_, _emi_ and
_eri_.
*emo* *m*oves *o*utside
*ero* *r*ests *o*utside
*emi* *m*oves *i*nside
*eri* *r*ests *i*nside
leads
Some literature quotes, ideas and different points of view.
* Immanuel Kant. _The Critique of Pure Reason_. 1787.
In the early chapters, Kant discloses that some observable things
cannot be isolated from the self, but instead appear to be
themselves a priori necessary for thinking and observation. These
a priori concepts include space and time in their immediate sense
- the structure in which things appear in the mind and seem to
exist outside of it.
* "By means of the external sense (a property of the mind), we
represent to ourselves objects as without us, and these all in
space. Herein alone are their shape, dimensions, and relations to
each other determined or determinable. [...] Space is not a
conception which has been derived from outward experiences. For,
in order that certain sensations may relate to something without
me (that is, to something which occupies a different part of space
from that in which I am); in like manner, in order that I may
represent them not merely as without, of, and near to each other,
but also in separate places, the representation of space must
already exist as a foundation. [...] We never can imagine or make
a representation to ourselves of the non-existence of space,
though we may easily enough think that no objects are found in
it." (translated by J. Meiklejohn)
* "Time is not an empirical conception. For neither coexistence nor
succession would be perceived by us, if the representation of time
did not exist as a foundation a priori. [...] With regard to
phenomena in general, we cannot think away time from them, and
represent them to ourselves as out of and unconnected with time,
but we can quite well represent to ourselves time void of
phenomena."
If I can imagine something, is it then really inside of me ? Isn't
there already a separation (space) between me and what I imagine ?
Such an extreme definition of _self_ or _inside_ would mean that
the self cannot have any (consciously accessible) attributes, no
memory etc., because any such attribute of the self would be
something that can be considered by the self and would thus, by
definition, not be part of the self...
This definition of _self_ reminds of the _Tao_ (way) in Taoism.
Lao Tzu starts the Tao Te Ching with "The Tao that can be spoken,
is not the real (unchanging) Tao".
* Would a female observer also consider what is seen as not being
part of herself or would she rather tend to identify with what she
sees ? In other words, is the distinction between in and out hard
or soft (gradual) ?
* What about sleep and dreaming, why only have a fully conscious
observer ?
metamorphosis
The next thing that one notices is that what moves can come to rest
and what rests can start to move. Also, it is possible to visualize
something that one has seen outside, like a tree or a spoon, later
on in the mind. In other words, the elements can transform into each
other.
What causes these changes ? Whatever it is, it must be something
fundamental, like the four elements. So let me simply call it the
fifth element, _e5_.
Free will seems to be a part of e5. It is possible to lift a spoon
and then to throw it away, i.e. to get something outside that rests
into motion (ero->emo). However, free will cannot be identical to
e5, as some things are much harder to control (try lifting a tree)
and things transform all the time without conscious influence.
Freedom inside the mind seems larger than outside. It is much easier
to lift a tree in the mind, than a real tree. But let me tackle
things from a different angle: Outside on average more things rest
than move, while inside the mind, things are almost always more
flowing.
For example, a tree is at rest in most situations, except for a
little movement of leaves and maybe branches. But if you close your
eyes and try to imagine a tree at rest, it will get very hard after
a few seconds not to deviate to other thoughts and to keep the tree
at rest.
In conclusion, on average outside activity is needed to get things
moving, while inside activity is needed to keep things at rest. More
abstractly, emo and eri are thus active, ero and emi are passive.
Also, what is outside resists motion on average more than what is
inside. So emo and ero are hard (out), emi and eri are soft (in).
*emo* moves outside active hard
*ero* rests outside passive hard
*emi* moves inside passive soft
*eri* rests inside active soft
*e5* transforms the above elements
leads
* If free will is a part of e5, what is the rest ? Cause and effect,
fate, destiny, the free will of others ? Quantum mechanics has
relativized the first assumption somewhat, or maybe not.
* What property of the issue of free will or not leads to millions
of variations when thinking about it ? Could it possibly even be
literally the effect of many "transformations" in the mind,
whatever that may mean precisely ?
* Freedom to lift a spoon does not automatically mean freedom of
choice whether to want to lift the spoon or not.
* When I say that outside more things rest than move, I mean this in
a very specific sense: Relative macroscopic motion at time scales
that human beings can register.
At long time scales, all things move; microscopically everything
is in motion, as heat is nothing but random motion of atoms or
molecules. When I turn my head, all objects move, but relative
motion between them remains small.
* The present approach to nature is consequently centered on the
human perspective, on direct experience of nature. Modern science
usually differs from that by trying to pick a point of view from
which a problems is easy to describe.
The oldest example for this is astronomy that has been greatly
simplified by solar centered calculations instead of using many
arbitrary epicycles in geocentric calculations.
* Modern science is a very valuable companion for the present
approach, especially for helping to exclude naive mistakes.
* Can my observations about motion, activity and hardness outside
and inside be formalized and thus proven ? How would such a
mathematical representation look like ? What assumptions would it
be based on ?
In any closed system, _entropy_, roughly a measure of disorder,
can at best remain constant, but usually it increases. With time,
macroscopic directed motion and structures decay into microscopic
random motion, which is, by definition, heat. Life manages to
escape this fate by operating in _open_ systems, by exporting
disorder into the environment. That way, living beings can grow
from microscopic seeds to complex structures and animals can
repeatedly create directed motion.
Since science considers the outside world to be mainly inanimate
and the mind to be located in a piece of organic matter, the
brain, it predicts that outside motion tends to disappear, while
inside the conscious mind has a hard time to focus on something,
because lots of mostly unconscious activity in the brain keeps
stirring things up.
Science is thus essentially compatible with the considerations
presented so far, except for science's qualitative notion that
creating motion inside the mind is active, requires energy, like
outside. This might, however, simply be due to the viewpoint of
science, which only considers facts in the outer, material world
and might thus not be able to describe inner processes as
experienced from the inside...
greek philosophy
Aristotle defines elements to be composed of properties that can be
felt by touching. He uses two pairs of opposites, hot-cold and
wet-dry, to define four elements, which he names _fire_, _earth_,
_water_ and _air_. And he identifies wet-dry with soft-hard,
viscous-brittle and smooth-rough. Unlike later the Stoics, he does
not consistently identify hot-cold with active-passive and
light-heavy. If you do, you get:
*fire* hot (active) dry (hard) *emo*
*earth* cold (passive) dry (hard) *ero*
*water* cold (passive) wet (soft) *emi*
*air* hot (active) wet (soft) *eri*
As you can see, this yields a one-to-one correspondence to my
previous definition of the elements.
The fifth element (ether, quintessence) is usually associated with
transformation and is often considered to be detached from the more
profane, touchable first four elements, to be rather "divine" or to
only exist in space.
leads
* Aristotle. _On Generation and Corruption_. Around 350 BC.
* "Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of
perceptible body; and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to
'tangible', and 'tangible' is that of which the perception is
touch; it is clear that not all the contrarieties constitute
'forms' and 'originative sources' of body, but only those which
correspond to touch." (Book II, translated by H. Joachim)
* "From moist and dry are derived (iii) the fine and coarse, viscous
and brittle, hard and soft, and the remaining tangible
differences. For (a) since the moist has no determinate shape, but
is readily adaptable and follows the outline of that which is in
contact with it, it is characteristic of it to be 'such as to fill
up'. Now 'the fine' is 'such as to fill up'. For 'the fine'
consists of subtle particles; but that which consists of small
particles is 'such as to fill up', inasmuch as it is in contact
whole with whole-and 'the fine' exhibits this character in a
superlative degree. Hence it is evident that the fine derives from
the moist, while the coarse derives from the dry. Again (b) 'the
viscous' derives from the moist: for 'the viscous' (e.g. oil) is a
'moist' modified in a certain way. 'The brittle', on the other
hand, derives from the dry: for 'brittle' is that which is
completely dry-so completely, that its solidification has actually
been due to failure of moisture. Further (c) 'the soft' derives
from the moist. For 'soft' is that which yields to pressure by
retiring into itself, though it does not yield by total
displacement as the moist does-which explains why the moist is not
'soft', although 'the soft' derives from the moist. 'The hard', on
the other hand, derives from the dry: for 'hard' is that which is
solidified, and the solidified is dry."
* "The elementary qualities are four [...]. Hence it is evident that
the 'couplings' of the elementary qualities will be four: hot with
dry and moist with hot, and again cold with dry and cold with
moist. [...] Fire is hot and dry, whereas Air is hot and moist
(Air being a sort of aqueous vapour); and Water is cold and moist,
while Earth is cold and dry."
* Aristotle arranges the elements in a cycle fire-air-water-earth:
"Thus (i) the process of conversion will be quick between those
which have interchangeable 'complementary factors', but slow
between those which have none. The reason is that it is easier for
a single thing to change than for many. Air, e.g. will result from
Fire if a single quality changes: for Fire, as we saw, is hot and
dry while Air is hot and moist, so that there will be Air if the
dry be overcome by the moist. Again, Water will result from Air if
the hot be overcome by the cold: for Air, as we saw, is hot and
moist while Water is cold and moist, so that, if the hot changes,
there will be Water. So too, in the same manner, Earth will result
from Water and Fire from Earth, since the two 'elements' in both
these couples have interchangeable 'complementary factors'. For
Water is moist and cold while Earth is cold and dry-so that, if
the moist be overcome, there will be Earth: and again, since Fire
is dry and hot while Earth is cold and dry, Fire will result from
Earth if the cold pass-away."
* Heraclitus seems to have suggested the same cycle earlier on: "The
death of fire is the birth of air, and the death of air is the
birth of water;'" (fragment DK B76).
* The views of the Stoics seem to have prevailed since Hellenistic
times, including in medieval alchemy and up to contemporary
astrology, where fire and air signs are seen as male and active,
and the other two as female and passive.
David Sedley writes in chapter 11 of _The Cambridge History of
Hellenistic Philosophy_ (Cambridge University Press, 2000) that
the Stoic's identification of hot-cold with active-passive emerged
from medical tradition, from _pneuma_, breath, which was seen as a
mixture of fire and air.
The identification of hot-cold with active-passive was apparently
not so clearly the only view of the Stoics in their time; see
above source for more historical details.
* In _On Generation and Corruption_, Aristotle considers light-heavy
not to be an attribute of any specific elements:
"(i) heavy and light are neither active nor susceptible. Things
are not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon, or
suffer action from, other things. But the 'elements' must be
reciprocally active and susceptible, since they 'combine' and are
transformed into one another. On the other hand (ii) hot and cold,
and dry and moist, are terms, of which the first pair implies
power to act and the second pair susceptibility."
But in _On the Heavens_, he considers air and fire as light and
water and earth as heavy, in the order earth-water-air-fire, and
postulates the existence of an immutable fifth element that
dominates in the sky, is neither light nor heavy and moves in
circles, while the first four elements move linearly:
"[...] all locomotion, as we term it, is either straight or
circular or a combination of these two, which are the only simple
movements. [...] Now revolution about the centre is circular
motion, while the upward and downward movements are in a straight
line, 'upward' meaning motion away from the centre, and 'downward'
motion towards it. [...] For if the natural motion is upward, it
will be fire or air, and if downward, water or earth. [...]
circular motion is necessarily primary. For the perfect is
naturally prior to the imperfect, and the circle is a perfect
thing. [...] These premises clearly give the conclusion that there
is in nature some bodily substance other than the formations we
know, prior to them all and more divine than they. [...] there is
something beyond the bodies that are about us on this earth,
different and separate from them; and that the superior glory of
its nature is proportionate to its distance from this world of
ours. [...] things are heavy and light relatively to one another;
air, for instance, is light relatively to water, and water light
relatively to earth. The body, then, which moves in a circle
cannot possibly possess either heaviness or lightness. For neither
naturally nor unnaturally can it move either towards or away from
the centre. [...] this body will be ungenerated and indestructible
and exempt from increase and alteration [\ldots] earth is enclosed
by water, water by air, air by fire, and these similarly by the
upper bodies'' (Book I, translated by J. Stocks)
Aristotle appears to consistently link hot/cold to active and
wet/dry to passive, see quote from _On Generation and Corruption_
above, or the following quote from _Meteorology_:
"All this makes it clear that bodies are formed by heat and cold
and that these agents operate by thickening and solidifying. It is
because these qualities fashion bodies that we find heat in all of
them, and in some cold in so far as heat is absent. These
qualities, then, are present as active, and the moist and the dry
as passive, and consequently all four are found in mixed bodies."
(Book IV, translated by E. Webster)
i ching
India and China also know five elements. But let me instead consider
the 8 trigrams of the Chinese Book of Changes, the _I Ching_.
III heaven, strong, creative, father
::: earth, devoted/yielding, receptive, mother
::I thunder, inciting movement, arousing, 1st son
:I: water, dangerous, abysmal, 2nd son
I:: mountain, resting, keeping still, 3rd son
II: wind/wood, penetrating, gentle, 1st daughter
I:I fire, light-giving, clinging, 2nd daughter
:II lake, joyful, joyous, 3rd daughter
Seems they resemble the Greek elements in pairs, namely heaven-wind
(air), earth-mountain, fire-thunder and water-lake. Let me rearrange
them into another table:
III heaven *air* rests male
II: wind/wood *air* moves female
I:: mountain *earth* rests male
::: earth *earth* moves female
I:I fire *fire* rests female
::I thunder *fire* moves male
:II lake *water* rests female
:I: water *water* moves male
Interestingly, if one selects the trigrams that correspond to the
Greek elements, i.e. resting air and earth, moving fire and water,
this selects exactly the male trigrams.
leads
* The I Ching is a divination system. By tossing coins or drawing
yarrow sticks, one determines hexagrams (two trigrams) that are
given meanings in the text of the I Ching.
* It appears that the fifth element is somehow contained in the
duality of the trigrams. Can it be made more specific in which way
exactly ?
A useful hint might be the following quote from the introduction
of _I Ching or Book of Changes_. Richard Wilhelm. English by Cary
F. Baynes. Penguin Books. 2003.
"The eight trigrams are symbols standing for changing transitional
states; they are images that are constantly undergoing change.
Attention centers not on things in their state of being - as is
chiefly the case in the Occident - but upon their movements in
change. The eight trigrams therefore are not representations of
things as such but of their tendencies in movement."
* How about putting the four elements into a circle in which they
transform into each other ? That would give 8 different
transitions (4 forward, 4 backward).
evolutions
Some ways in which the idea presented earlier might evolve with
time, or maybe not...
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mixed feelings
The inner elements eri and emi are softer than the outer ones, which
suggests that they would mix more easily.
The idea is now that what appears outside as individual and separate
beings is unconsciously connected and that these connections result
in feelings that change for often not obvious reasons (emi), while
naming inner concepts allows to impose some abstract calm (eri).
Two cultural associations come to mind. The astrological association
of feelings and the unconscious with the element water and of
language, logic and communication with the element air. The idea of
a collective unconscious itself is Jungian, while it may in the end
still be so that such collective connections are just illusions
created by a more Freudian individual unconscious.
Let me use the Jungian picture, since phenomenologically it would be
very hard to distinguish from the Freudian one and things are
simpler to explain in the Jungian picture.
How one feels at any moment would be a mixture of individual and
collective influences. Not that what other people think would be
directly accessible, just indirectly with regard to how one feels in
a particular situation, or how one feels regarding individual
possible next steps.
Individuals that are emotionally and physically close would likely
have the strongest influence on a person, but also large groups of
people, say same village, country, religion, etc., could together
have a strong influence.
Influences from a collective unconscious could go well beyond the
sum of what is in individual conscious minds. Since the collective
unconscious would effectively be a very large brain, consisting of
many more brain cells than any individual being, it might have a
much more complex and sophisticated mind than any conscious
individual and it would know all kinds of details about everybody.
Such a picture of a collective unconscious would resemble the
concept of god or gods in many religions, and it would likely be
fragmented into smaller units at several scales, like families,
countries, religions, etc., each with its own collective feelings,
plans, and so on.
Jung noticed that in dreams and in cultural creations some
archetypal patterns repeat. These archetypes might simply be part of
the thoughts and experiences and knowledge of the collective
unconscious.
Precognition in dreams or art might simply be picking up collective
intentions that are only later realized and can be felt and dreamed
about already while the collective unconscious is only planning or
considering them.
How would the collective unconscious effectively direct the
individuals it consists of ? Telling each and every one what to do
at each moment would likely not be possible, just like the conscious
individual mind would not be able to tell each of its nerve cells
when to fire.
But maybe with a general concept like astrology, which creates a
balanced and relatively complete set of individuals, each with its
own approach to new problems: Faced with a particular problem, a Leo
would feel more like solving it the Leo way (by collective
feedback), so that in any situation typically different approaches
would be tried and the most suitable one would succeed. That way
typically the best approach would relatively quickly be found
without focused intervention by the collective unconscious.
Moreover, what star signs like to do is often adapted to typical
actions during the respective part of the year, like harvesting and
sorting it in for Virgo, for example.
Assuming the collective unconscious extends to any living beings
(and maybe even matter considered inanimate), oracles like the I
Ching or Tarot could really reveal some intentions of the collective
unconscious, maybe paired with emotional feedback about which parts
of the response to focus on or how to interpret it.
leads
* See odyssey, I have written a lot more on this idea in my life
than it may superficially appear, starting with 'A few new
discoveries in physics', which I published in June 2002.
elemental cycles
How Aristotle's cycle of the elements might grow naturally from the
ideas presented previously, at least as one of just very few simple
possibilities.
The four elements can in principle interface in six ways: emo-ero,
emi-eri, emo-emi, ero-eri, emo-eri, emi-ero.
Transitions at the first two interfaces, emo-ero and emi-eri, are
clearly possible in both directions, since things start to move and
come to rest both inside and outside.
The situation at the remaining four interfaces is more difficult to
estimate, because they all cross the boundary between in and out.
Since the outside world has an effect on the inner world, and
vice-versa, in and out are obviously connected, but a priori not all
8 possible transitions at these 4 interfaces in-out would be
necessary.
Let me take a step back and reconsider the interfaces emo-ero and
emi-eri. Take emo-ero. The interface between these two elements must
be unobservable, because otherwise it would be something that is
observed in the outside world, hence it would be one of these two
elements. The analog argument can be made for the interface emi-eri.
For the same reason, the boundary in-out must be unobservable, too,
so that one might imagine it to be a thin membrane. Imagine, say, a
blob of ero at the boundary to inside and move the boundary just a
little bit into ero. A slice of ero will end up inside and, if it
remains passive, will start to flow, becoming emi.
Similarly, emi->ero, emo->eri, eri->emo, but no transitions emo-emi
or ero-eri. Under these assumptions, one would thus arrive at
Aristotle's circle of transformations emo-eri-emi-ero-emo or
fire-air-water-earth-fire.
Obviously this set of assumptions is not the only possible one, but
likely one of the simplest.
Next is something that would apparently be too amazing to be true
both to astrologers and to everybody else, namely a simple model of
the star signs of the zodiac in which each star sign is a stage in a
transition between elements within Aristotle's circle.
*element* *transition* *image*
fire earth-fire-air fire
air fire-air-water cloud
water earth-water-air river
earth fire-earth-water tree
For the fire signs, Aries-Leo-Sagittarius, the transition is from
earth via fire to air:
. . . , .
.:.:. ; : : . :
\ i.. ^ : .'. : . .
| ,,,. |j | ; , ..'
.| .'. ; ? :. | !:
;\ J \..;, , . : , *air*
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[Aries] [Leo] [Sagittarius]
The archetypal image is simply a burning fire that transforms wood
(earth) to smoke (air). More precisely, Aries is a young fire, made
mainly of earth, with not much fire, yet, and almost no air, yet.
Sagittarius, in turn, is an old fire, consisting mainly of air, with
not much fire remaining and almost no earth left. Leo is in between,
a fire at its peak, with a lot of fire, and less but mutually about
equal amounts of earth and air.
The wound of the fisher king, for example, is a central theme in the
story of Parsifal and thus for Leo. (If you are not aware of such
common associations in so-called psychological astrology, see e.g.
Liz Greene's _Star Signs for Lovers_ and _The Astrology of Fate_).
Young Parsifal first fails to ask the right question and only after
much work manages to heal the king and take his place.
In my model, the wound of the fisher king is simply the human body
(earth) that is wounded by the fire of life, as any human body must
die one day. Only what is learned in life, can be formulated in
words (air) and can thus be passed on to later generations, thus
becomes immortal in a way. So there is a transformation from mortal
body to immortal soul, or animal-man/king-god.
For the air signs, Gemini-Libra-Aquarius, the transition is from
fire via air to water:
.. *air*
.vJ`
..J??u....7 ......... ..J.??1,..
.: . ....i. .= . .`, .o. \ ` , J
.^ .# 4C G?b?@` ?. ..Y! O .! 1
.m, ., . j. 1 . .; ,Y:\ .j., .,JYJb
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. ,.. ..J + i.;,.3
' ^ !
[Gemini] [Libra] [Aquarius]
The archetypal image is a cloud (air) which emits both lightning
(fire) and rain (water): Gemini is a young thunderstorm, with lots
of lightning and thunder, but little rain, yet. Aquarius is an old
thunderstorm, with essentially only rain left. Libra is in between.
Libra's dilemma of choice is an abstract one: There is no earth
involved in the above model. So Paris was neither attracted by
Hera's offer of great literal possessions nor by Athene's offer to
make him a great warrior, but chose Aphrodite's promise of the love
of Helena. Since Libra is in the middle of a transition
fire-air-water, the choice is usually the latter, water, thus
emotions, love.
There is a strive for clarity in the air signs. Gemini is like a
child in its quick and random motion, like flames or lightning
(fire), by which the child learns to understand the world by looking
at everything from all possible angles. Take a coin for example.
What the eye literally sees (fire) is just different images, front
face, back face, side view. Only if you combine these images
mentally in your head (air), does an entity "coin" come to be.
For the water signs, Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces, the transition is from
earth via water to air:
........
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..? 7wk?,Jk, ` 7uv.?. ?w=7777?7?????!!:+
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` ` ` ?74ec+++,. [Pisces] `
` ` [Cancer] ` ` [Scorpio] ?77jJ+.... ` ..,
` ` `???!`
The archetypal image is a river: Cancer is a source and young river
emerging from the mountains, maybe from a glacier (earth), and has
not merged with much other waters. As the water flows down, it
merges with more and more rivers and becomes a stream: Scorpio.
Finally, Pisces is the sea, into which practically all rivers flow
and from which the water eventually evaporates again (air).
So, the transition is, like for the fire signs, from earth to air,
but this time caused by a passive, female element. The river that
flows down to the sea is more fated than fire, since it is passive,
it cannot resist the movement.
Protection is a strong need for Cancer, but since there is a
transition to water, also the fight for independence from its roots
(earth) is an important theme. Hera ordered a crab to bite Hercules
into his ankle while he was fighting the Hydra in the swamps. Both
the crab, who got his place as a constellation for his obedience to
Hera, and Hercules ("glory of Hera") are part of the theme, as is
also the Hydra and the swamps.
For the earth signs, Taurus-Virgo-Capricorn, the transition is from
fire via earth to water:
.
.! `!.. . t.\ ,`?!`?,
. JJm: .u., ! !` .?!, `^` 1 .. .
.= .J,,?" : C.W8P`....`, ..!%,,.WJ! O
1 jhJ ?=` ?. *fire* :,..!^.KMd 7 ...G.dbJb.JcTd\
\!`` .WK ..! i?``.``.` .' . ??o??+?
??....., `?yj;2?! .C`v
...j *earth* j`YW& \.,
. JJ. `.dN.I ^!`` .:.J. %:7.,.
, ` t .R, % 7vL,3 ! ` .!?3\ .! `
......J3+^??5.:.:.j...........1+.J....Zh.t..................h.J&Q...........
1. JM@.Hk .Xl . `! . . `.,....` ..WWkkkHS......
.?...` .!..^ ! .+`'.?1`.i!.. ..7=?f!:,5r7Tl?...
```?`?` `'` . " . . .` ?1 !.. ?.
. *water*
[Taurus] [Virgo] [Capricorn]
The archetypal image is a tree: Taurus is mainly made of fire,
focusses on the directly visible, but short-lived beauties of the
tree, the leaves and flowers that grow with the power of the sun
(fire). Capricorn is mainly made of water, restrains himself to the
parts of the tree that persist across seasons and which keep it from
falling down, namely trunk and roots, which feed it with water and
the substances diluted in it. Virgo is in between, not sure which to
chose: Beauty or structure ?
This solves the riddle that even though Virgo is often depicted as
being very concerned about order, many Virgos do not keep their
lives and homes in strict order. It is Virgo for whom order is an
issue, for Capricorn it is a given and for Taurus it is not that
important, except a bit, as Taurus is transforming from fire to
earth.
Associated with beauty-order is also living vs. planning. Taurus
enjoys the moment, but plans little, while Capricorn often keeps
both an eye on the present and on possible future paths. Virgo is
again in between.
The abduction of Persephone by Hades fits the model very well:
Persephone is collecting flowers, looking at the sunny (fire) side
of life, but she is already starting to look down to earth, probably
at least unconsciously starting to wonder about how things work,
what makes the flowers grow, etc. The ground opens up and Hades
abducts her and makes her his wife, the queen of the underworld.
In the model, the transition for each element starts with a dry
element (earth or fire) and ends with a wet one (air or water). This
can be associated with the older age of star signs later in the
zodiac. To Aries, for example, a tree is often just a tree, just
what the eye can see (fire). To Sagittarius, in contrast, a tree is
often "Maya", just an illusion (air). It is probably an experience
of life that not everything is what it appears to be at first.
There is always one element missing in each transition. Thus, while
Libra lacks realism in judgement, Leo lacks compassion, Scorpio
imagination and Virgo reason.
A good way to try to prove such a model formally would maybe be to
start with writing down associative maps, maybe starting with common
associations with the elements, like these:
*fire* energy of life, light, sun,
vision, imagination, creativity
*air* mind, logic, spirit, abstraction,
rationality, consciousness
*water* feelings, love, beauty, fate,
collective, unconscious, river
*earth* physical reality, body, land,
mother nature, tree
And then you would continue from there, synthesize and match more
complex themes, not manually as in the examples above, but using
computer software somewhat similar to what internet search engines
use.
Of course, that would only prove that the model matches common
themes associated with star signs, not that astrology has anything
to do with reality, but such a result would certainly make people
wonder if there is more to it.
Beyond that, maybe some day it might be possible to synthesize most
properties of the star signs formally from the transition between
the elements.
Libra, for example, learns from observation of motion outside (fire)
and inside (water). Since Libra's transition is towards water, the
gift of "inner vision" is given to Teiresias by Zeus and outer
vision is reduced by Hera, except for observing omens, which are
arguably just outer reflections of collective inner intentions.
leads
* See odyssey, I have written a lot more on astrology in my life
than it may superficially appear, starting with 'A few new
discoveries in physics', which I published in June 2002.
odyssey
For more by me, see archive for older and often richer versions of
this site, and more (and maybe even dive into my usenet odyssey for
much more), or visit my google profile under links for short bio,
photos, visual art, and more.
See references and links for related publications by others.
Finally, make your own ideas, say, by combining your pet theories
with what you found here!
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References
* Andreas Schoeter. _Bipolar Change_. Journal of Chinese Philosophy.
Volume 35, Issue 2, p. 297-317 (June 2008).
*Abstract* I reconsider the natural characterization of change and
non-change that arises from the algebraic approach: this sees
change as yang in contrast to nonchange, which is yin. Following a
persuasive example from Alain Stalder, rather than consider change
solely in contrast to non-change, I develop a formal
characterization of different forms of change considered relative
to each other. This extension allows the internal structure of a
change to be made explicit in a new way, bifurcating the change
into yang parts and yin parts. I call this extended definition of
change bipolar change.
*Links* [Preprint] [Publication]
http://www.yijing.co.uk/downloads/BipolarChange.pdf
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119878305/abstract
Archive
* webnow.zip
* web2010.zip
* web2009.zip
* web2008.zip
* web2007.zip
* web2006.zip
* web2005.zip
* odyssey.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/webnow.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2010.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2009.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2008.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2007.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2006.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2005.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
=> http://alainstalder.ch/machi.zip
Links
* Yi Jing Algebra
Mathematical approaches to the I Ching, by Andreas Schoeter.
http://www.yijing.co.uk/
* Greek Elements
Detailed article by John Opsopaus; from ancient Greece to Jung.
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/AGEDE/
* My Google Profile
Short biography, photos, visual art, software, and more...
http://www.google.com/profiles/alain.stalder.ch
architecture
_Everything rests by changing. - Heraclitus_
I try to let my site evolve a bit like a zen garden in Kyoto.
[image]
The web server is a very small embedded Linux machine, called
Foxboard from Acme Systems (no joke!), located in my place in my
home town Adliswil, near Zuerich in Switzerland, where I also
wrote all contents of this site.
Copyright (C) 2002 - now by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
Made in Switzerland.
PS:
People are either blind or not free, or both - Libra/Lib(r)ussa!
My web site and my work is 99.999% invisible to my contemporaries.
Only Ciro Discepolo responded to my about 220 postcards sent to
astrologers worldwide in June 2010 (see my picasa album for photos
of the postcards), and he did not even read my site... :)
In July, I sent a handful more postcards, to astrologers I knew
from Usenet; Richard Nolle answered "Thanks for the card you sent,
Alain. Please in future send via email rather than by physical
mail, to save resources. Thanks!" - I rest my case... ;)
A world in which nobody is curious and everybody is convinced
to contain already all wisdom of the world from within... ;)
Mucha's "La Plume" painting, see e.g. sabian.org oracle:
http://www.sabian.org/oracle.htm
Libuse the mythological foundress of Prague and mother of all
slavs has chosen to create two new star signs ruled by sun+moon,
so 14 signs total, each planet rules two, so Artemis and Apollo,
black and white, but pleasant, Libuse was the third daughter of
the tree nymph Niva, who's life was bound to a an oak tree, so
first day of spring in the celtic tree circle (the point from
which Libuse's neck "grows" in the painting), but Libuse chose
to "end" matriarchy in a different way, avoiding e.g. the fight
between 12 solar signs and about 13 lunar ones (e.g. sleeping
beauty fairy tale), but instead chose 14 in way, freedom, chose
to avoid choice, or as Tomas Garrige Masaryk (first president
of Czechoslovakia, second name is the last name of his wife)
put Libuse's beautiful albeit arguably maybe a bit nymphomaniac
approach to life:
* Politics, too, demand a balance between reason and feeling. Even
* in the most delicate political situation we must notice and plan
* carefully, what, how and on whom we can count; it has to be as
* accurate as mathematics; our feelings must never err in their
* observations and calculations. But the aim, the ideal, is not
* laid down by reason alone, but by feeling also. The means are
* dictated by reason; but we can change the situation to suit our
* aim, we can introduce new elements into it, something of our own.
* That is creation; that is the poetry of life."
http://homepage.mac.com/williamszone/dostal/chapter12/chapter12.html
And earlier in history you get to ancient gods that created life,
like the frog headed egyptian goddess married to some variant of
ram headed amun, and it goes on to the golem and cthulhu and the
war with the newts, and to cherubin and helicopters and to
cybernetics, and the squid-like otesanek, and even vera linahartova
lets one of her characters in a story create some sort of golem,
and likely also including ball-lightning in some way? ...
(thx apollia for discussions and initial cthulhu lead)
Oh yeah, and the blue chrysanthenum that dies towards the end of
August each year, like "communism with a human face" in 1968, or
more recently - Pluto in 2006, or rather as usual Libuse did not
remove anything but added something, "planet => dwarf planet" -
"that is the poetry of life", as certainly coming generations
will acknowledge, but nobody in my time, I am sure... :)
The slit at the end/start of the zodiac is the only point where
the soul is truly free between death and rebirth, the point that
is at the largest distance from Ma'at's tribunal with the 42=6x7
(Virgo/Libra transition, middle of zodiac) judges...
So, yes, both Libra and Aries, start/end and middle. And not :)
But if the little fox,
After nearly completing the crossing,
Gets his tail in the water,
There is nothing that would further.
-- 64 Wei Chi in the I Ching ("What about Prague?")
Es wird uebrigens noch ein Anhang hierzu ueberliefert.
-- Franz Kafka, Das Schweigen der Sirenen
So "the poetry of life" in my postcard was to expose my idea of
elementary star signs as clearly and directly as ever possible,
and to send it to practically all astrological associations and
schools, and to the most publicly visible astrologers - unlike
usually a postcard, not sent from far away to back home, but
instead from home to far away, and with the picture not showing
a photo of where I traveled, but instead exposing a scientific
hypothesis -- yet, more abstractly, it does show a picture of
where I _virtually_ "travelled", which is at the same time also
a new, cosy and stable "home" for astrology in the 21st century,
and I sent it virtually from "abroad" (a physicist) to back
"home" (to astrologers, where it belongs).
"we can introduce new elements into it, something of our own.
That is creation; that is the poetry of life."
That should do in the end. Feel free to contact me - if its not
too far to travel, I can come by and explain my model modestly
to anyone who wants to know. I do not want to shape what grows
from it, but grow it should some time not too far from now...
)o+
"The oddest thing of all, the thing that most strikes us when we
embark on a story is the total void spreading out before us. The
events have occurred and lie all around us in a continuous, form-
less mass without beginning or end. We can start anywhere..."
-- Vera Linhartova (as quoted in "Bringing up Girls in Bohemia")
This post is about my life and fate with or "with" Pavlina; a Czech
girl I fell in love with in the spring of 1982 and who has almost
all planets in her birth chart arranged in a Mystic Rectangle in
the signs Pisces, Virgo, Taurus and Scorpio.
The ambivalence and "mystic" side of this is already evident from
the use of 'with or "with"' above, and it certainly has also quite
a bit to do with that Mystic Rectangle, as I hope to expose. There
are both good reasons for 'with' and '"with"' in what I am going
to tell and in the end it may remain a matter of taste on the side
of the reader (or maybe on the birth chart of the reader), whether
to go rather with 'with' or with '"with"'.
Here is the birth data:
Alain (me): 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich, Switzerland
Pavlina: 1965-03-05 12:00 Ostrava, Czechoslovakia*
* The birth date is from a public source, the yearbook of a school
in Winterthur, Switzerland she went to between about 1983 and 1986;
birth time and place are guesses, more on them later.
Her Mystic Rectangle involves all planets except the moon. They
are all in female signs:
Pisces: Venus(5*10), Saturn(8*27), Sun(14*41), Mercury(23*05)
Virgo: Uranus(12*42), Pluto(15*03), Mars(20*20)
Taurus: Jupiter(20*41)
Scorpio: Neptune(19*57)
Not all are technically part of the rectangle; in total there is
an excess of oppositions, which make this Mystic Rectangle probably
more difficult to handle than it usually is. Using orbs of 10* for
trines, oppositions and conjunctions and 6* for sextiles, the total
numbers for each aspect are:
Oppositions: 10
Conjunctions: 6
Trines: 5
Sextiles: 3
The sun has three oppositions, with Pluto (very close orb) and with
Uranus and Mars - I imagine not a very cheerful experience in the
first moment of life, to have the sun (self/life) faced with these
three. Uranus sees also three oppositions, Pluto four.
She works or worked as a stage designer in Prague, and as part of
that - according to the dissertation of Gwendolyn Orel - she once
built a device that served both as a door and a bed in a play of
Kafka's "The Trial". Now, at first sight, a bed and a door do not
have much in common. But wait. They are both rectangles, so they
look like a Mystic Recangle. A door can open or close the passage
between two rooms or even two worlds. The bed is metaphorically
also the gate between two worlds, like awake and asleep/dreaming,
and conception, birth and death often take place in a bed.
This brings me to the word "Prague". According to Wikipedia, the
word comes from "praga", which means "ford", in the case of Prague
across the Vlatva river. The Greek goddess Hecate was associated
with crossroads. She is a very old goddess, definitely older than
the generation of Zeus and I suspect even older than the known
ones before them. Together with Artemis (new moon), they protect
beginnings and ends, i.e. in the Zodiac foremost the spring point
around 30* Pisces resp. 0* Aries.
Libuse, the mythological foundress of Prague, was the daughter of
Niva a tree nympth, whose life was bound to an oak tree - if the
tree died, so would she. Her chosen husband Krok would normally
guard the tree, but once it was hit by lightning and she died. In
the Celtic tree circle, the oak tree is the first day of spring.
(Actually she would not really die, just sleep a deep sleep that
is similar to regular human beings sleeping.)
She had three daughters, with various magic abilities. Her youngest
daughter, Libuse, was additionally gifted with great wisdom and
intelligence. She was settling disputes while sitting below a Linden
tree (the last 10 days of winter in the Celtic tree circle), but
people were not happy that a woman decided their fate and so she
prophesized where the people could find her husband and/or had her
white horse lead them to him. She married him and they founded
Prague. So far, this sounds quite a bit like the usual mythological
story around the transition between matriarchy and patriarchy.
But take a look at this image for magazine "La Plume" by Alphonse
Mucha, Czech Art Nouveau painter who was a long time in Paris:
http://www.sabian.org/oracle.htm
It shows the head of a beautiful young woman ("Libuse") inside a
zodiac wheel. But wait. If you look carefully, the wheel would be
14 signs wide. Technically that was just a trick for the painter
to show all 12 signs and still have room for the neck of the woman
between Pisces and Aries, from where it grows like the oak tree
at the beginning of spring. But here she grew the slot between
death and rebirth, the only time when the soul is truly free, and
not bound by a birth chart. In the "Sleeping Beauty" fairy tale,
the 13th fairy is angry because the king did not invite her. He
had only 12 plates with a golden rim, a symbol for the 12 solar
months of the year, while in terms of the shorter lunar months,
it would be closer to 13 months. Libuse again avoids the problem
very elegantly, by creating 14, not 12 or 13 signs.
Astrologically, this allows also to give rulership to each of the
7 traditional planets over 2 signs. So sun and moon get an extra
sign, as it appears in sort of a "black" variant, without being
really heavy and dark in the usual plutonic sense. You can see the
sun and the moon in the lower corners of the Mucha drawing above.
This creative poetry of the first moment in spring, and preserving
it eternally, is the secret of Libuse which becomes no less mystic
even if you know it in principle. Thomas Garrige Masaryk, the first
president of Czechoslovakia wrote:
"Politics, too, demand a balance between reason and feeling.
Even in the most delicate political situation we must notice
and plan carefully, what, how and on whom we can count; it has
to be as accurate as mathematics; our feelings must never err
in their observations and calculations. But the aim, the ideal,
is not laid down by reason alone, but by feeling also. The means
are dictated by reason; but we can change the situation to suit
our aim, we can introduce new elements into it, something of
our own. That is creation; that is the poetry of life."
-- http://homepage.mac.com/williamszone/dostal/chapter12/chapter12.html
But let me start telling the actual story. In 1982, I was too
shy to approach her directly. I am not sure how she experienced
things, but she did once write "I LOVE YOU ALAIN" on my pocket
calculator during a break, not sure how exactly it was meant.
I should maybe mention a few more astrological factors, just in
case the reader is too lazy to plot the charts based on the data
given earlier on. Her moon is at 8*45 Aries for the time given.
How I got to the time, is based on Pedantus' method of comparing
images with birth chart, in this case between her birth chart
and three images she used on facebook. Here is the current one,
as ascii art and so too blurred to allow to recognize her:
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???;;;;::::::^^:^:^:.`^`^^^^.J+++J&&uwwQQQkkAAsAwXkwwzzzz==ltttrrvvXXH########HM###HMMMNNNNHHkkkWXXX
;;;::```^^`...^`.``.^`.``.`+1Zi&zjwZXMNM#HMM@MMMMMMMMMNmAwOzlltrrvXwMNMN######MM####NNNN########HH#H
;:::^^^^........ `.` .?++&+dkWHH0jXWMMM##MMMMM#HMMMMMMMMMNkvOzOtOtdHMMMMMMMMMMMMNMMMMMMNNNNNN####MM#
tll===???+++........JQQkkHkXWHHkw+wWMMNNNNNNMN#MMMMMMMMMMMMRZrzOzdHHHOtOtrrrrrvvzXXUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
lll==???;?;;;:+`.+1OWMMMMMMMM@MHHHkW@MNMMNNMNMNMMMMMMMMNMM@HHAwzdppppkwzllllttttrrrvvzdMKuuuuZZuZZZZ
ll==???;;;;;:+` ?+.dHMMM###NNM#NMNMMMNNNNNNMMNMMMMMMMMMMHHHHHWWWkkkkHK1zOO==llllttttttrMNvvzvzzuuuuu
l==???;?++!`^` ?IJOWMMHM#NNMNN#MM#MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM#XHH@MHgHqHpbkqHv+?OI===l=lllllttdMwrrrvvvvvzz
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M0=1??wwrOv` .`++I .I. .?+?1zyl `rwXwO==zOXWbWH@mHVWy?XWkpWbSXuXR.`^^^^:::::;;;;???zM#=l=ll
@M#MMHkXkw+`. . `.cJ1z: JW+. ?;+1zO: .lwXZVtOzlwWbWW@HHWHVkwwWpkXXkXuW.^^^^^^^^:::;;;;;?+dNZ====
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HWMMMHXZyXuZ!.,+JIzvzXzXwXXHMN+:+ztrUHn..`^.JuUUOO1OWd@HHHbmggHkz+i?wXVXwXHYTTTTTTTTTTTTTYYYYY6X#9UV
WHHAdMXXyWuC.dC`zwdXkXUWHWHHmgMe++zOz++zv1zCIOOOt=z+dMMMH@HgqHmHWZzOzOOXXwW:^^^::::::::::;;;;?1WNOOl
WWWHWHXXyZX!.G,JkzOXSo+XWHMHHWMMNe.++;+z1===zlOOzuwjMN#M@@MHHHHqHRz+tlwOdSXI^:^^:^:::::;;;;;???dHR==
ZZZZWH0WWkI .vC+O:`JvUWXWWMg@HMMMMNe.`?zzz+11tlzwWHMN#N#MMHMHHHHWqHkyrOzWWWR.^::^:::::;;;;;?;??zMNz?
uuuuuwAWqkl..OdWk.XHHXH3dNHMMMNMMMNMH&J;??;??zzwXCSMNNNNMMMHHHHHHmHkSwdWHHHH:^^:::^::::;;;?;????dMZ=
uwzzvvUHmH!``dX@MAWHHSQWMMMMMMMNMMNMNkuuuzuXvvwXR.j#NMMNMHHH#NHH@HHmHXNHHHHmI^:^:::::::;;;;?;???dMNz
mZwOtOwHWD.,?dHWM3?dodMMNMMMMNNN###NNNkXyZuuuuZyWmHMNMMMHHMMMMM@H@@@MM@MMMNHb:^:^:::::;;;;;??????WNZ
VWmylzXHWt.R?dWNK+QWNdNHMMHHNMMM#NMNMNMHpfyZyyZZXMNNMNNMMHHMM#HHH@@HMNMHMMMNN+::::::::;;;;?;;????dMR
?++?TIdHW:JHkvHMNWMMMNNgMNNM@MMNNNMMMNMMHWWWVyyyXNMMMMM####H#H##HHMMN#H@MMMMNc;::::::;;;;;?;????=zHN
+:::`?dK7.+MMRdHMNHMMMNNNNNNN##N###MMMN#MNHWWWWHMMNMMMNN#######HMMMN#HHHHMMMMRz+;;;;;;;;;;;?;????=dH
^^..JHr7`zdMMRWH#MNMMMNNNNNNN######MMMM#NMMMMMNM#MMNMNN####HH##MN###HHHH@MMM#rOz+?;;;;?;????????=zM
`^.. ,@\ .1jMNNNMMN#MMHMNNNNNNNN#M#MMMMMNNNN#####NMMMMN########MNNNNN#HH#MMMMNvrOzz=?????????????==U
^^. ,H: .czdMNNMMM#NNNM#NN#MNNNMMWH0WHMN#N#H####MMMMMNN###H##MMMNN###NNMMMMMMkAAAAQQQAAAwXXUUUUUUUU
7TTCudH` JsjAdMNNNNNNNNMHNNMMMMMNNMNzWMMMMHHHH##HMMNMMN######MMMNNNNNMN#HMMMMMHXrtll====??????==??==
1++++XZ?!JHzXhJMMMMNNNNNMMH###NMMMNNNMNMMMMH#HH#NMMMMNNNN###MMNNNNMNMNH#HHHMMMNXvtllll===????+??!```
The rectangle of her face (and the door frame behind her, which
is not visible in the ascii art rendition) are what I would most
likely identify with her Mystic Rectangle. This would give two time
frames for her birth date, about 4 AM and about 12 noon.
Around 4 AM her AC is in Capricorn and her MC in Scorpio and her
moon would be below her chin. Around 12 noon, her AC is in Cancer,
her MC in Pisces, and her moon would be in her hair above her
forehead. To me, the second option fits better, for essentially
two reasons, as follows.
The moon in Aries fits better with the wild hair to me than with the
chin. Her previous two facebook images were very diverse in my view
and adapted to the time they were posted, in ways which would fit in
my feeling best with Pisces: The first image was the head of catwoman
wearing a joker mask, i.e. two masks on top of each other. The head
was in the lower left corner of the image that was otherwise black.
The catwoman suit was black, the mask white. This is again something
special (Masaryk was a Pisces, too, by the way), two masks on top of
each other. I remember that the German teacher in the school I went
to with her in about 1982 discussed one of her compositions once, and
mentioned a world view in which all people are actors playing a role.
That fits quite well with Jupiter and Pisces. (But I should note that
for the 4 AM chart, Neptune in Scorpio is conjunct the MC too). The
teacher exposing this view in public relates it to the MC.
The image had likely been posted early this year, maybe in January or
February, and it reflects in my Jexler Java open source project that I
had very briefly started at that time, and other things in the world
around that time. The second image, that was first up maybe a month or
a bit longer ago, was her face seen from the side and it was probably
a more current photo than the most recent one above where she is facing
the camera. Reminds me a lot of the mentioned Mucha painting, which I
was considering in that timeframe, and other things that were sideways
("Egyptian") around that time.
In all images a rectangle with roughly the orientation of the last one,
i.e. a "door" standing up in the usual way, just slightly tilted to the
side, can be seen. In the first image (catwoman/joker), the rectangle
could also be tilted the other way.
My moon is an Aries, too, but later in Aries, at 17*17. So still losely
conjunct with her moon, which may in my view an experience still be
very important, given that her moon is quite lonely in her birth chart,
not part of the Mystic Rectangle, with at most semi- or sesquisquares
to other planets (depending on the time of birth).
My sun at 14*11 Leo is at a quincunx to her sun, which explains maybe
some more of the mystic fascination. If you follow quincunxes nominally
in the zodiac, you plot an image of a sun with 12 rays, symbolizing in
my view the long path it takes in order to understand the other side of
a quincunx, maybe a whole life (sun)...
The image of a sun reflects also in my two life planets in Leo (ruled
by the sun) and Aries (sun exalted). It fits with Cherubin, and also
many other Jewish things (Age of Aries), in particular in combination
with her moon also in Aries. Her last name by marriage means "craw",
and the last name of her mother was the Jyddish word for a little bird
(plus the usual "ova" appended to it). Kafka is a jackdaw, i.e. roughly
a craw, too. I remember that in one of my two visits in Prague I was at
the Jewish cemetery in which the ground is several meters above ground,
because Jewish religion does not allow to dig up old dead bodies.
There were high trees and high above craws or raven were flying around.
These birds are the animals of Apollon and Artemis (sun and moon), and
the number 7 was sacred to them. So the zodiac of 14=7+7 signs in the
Mucha "La Plume" (the feather) drawing is in their realm, so to speak.
Artemis when a three year old child and sitting on Zeus' knees was
asked by him what she wanted from life. She wanted eternal virginity,
as many names as her twin brother Apollon, a bow and arrow, lots of
ocean and river nymphs as companions - and a city.
Zeus gave her 30 cities, which I guess are Paris, London, New York,
Berlin, and more, but most importanly Prague, of course. Prague was
symbolically so important to her that the Czechs did not fight at
all when Hitler invaded, so Prague was not bombed. Libuse did still
symbolically show who rules the city when the German commander of
the city was killed by Czech resistance. Again the gain of doing that
was poetically symbolic. The German retaliation killed many more
Czechs, but if you were an entire city, would you consider that loss
worth to make the statement?
Many of my planets are part of a grand trine in water signs:
Cancer: Mars(17*58), Venus(19*47), Jupiter(20*19)
Scorpio: Neptune(19*24), n.node(21*12)
Pisces: Saturn(29*06), Cheiron(25*35)
Oh yes, I forgot to mention that Pavlina's n.node is in Gemini, at
18*48 Gemini, which is also very close to where the nodes are in
the birth chart of astrologer Liz Greene. See some of the things I
posted in the past about these relations, including the stories in
the past, including Isabel Hickey and maybe further back into past
generations...
Both of Pavlina's parents have Pluto in Leo. And she has an older
sister, Simona, who went to the same school as she and I in the
early 1980s. But let me finally expose a few real life events from
the past. In 1983, a year after I had fallen in love with her, she
switched school to Winterthur, from a more technical/scientific
school to one oriented more towards language. As I heard later,
her new class consisted only of women and she was the tallest of
them, which reminds, in retrospect, of course a lot of Artemis and
her orgiastic nymphs.
I met her a few more times, usually on meetings with others from
my school class. One was sledging down from Uetliberg in Zurich
(and before that walking up). One other was a mask party, in which
I was wearing a kind of superhero costume that looked maybe a bit
silly, and to that party she and her sister came with two guys,
and I remember an other girl from my class announcing that they
would come with two gay guys. I do not remember enough about how
they looked like in order to judge now whether that was true, but
she did kiss one of them on the mouth that evening. The third
meeting and the last in which I spoke to her face to face was a
dinner, and I remember her hair that was going over her face, so
that her face was almost completely hidden from view.
She told me that she would usually go to school with a Vespa, a
guy going to the same school would take her there. That means I
was already 18 by then, i.e. it was 1984 or a bit later, when I,
too was already driving a Vespa, and actually I do not know why
I chose to want a Vespa. Another one of many symmetries between
me an her. At the end of that evening when saying goodbye, she
closed her eyes and pointed her lips for a kiss, but I backed off,
not prepared for it and still a bit mad a her for having kissed
an other guy last time I met her. So, the moment passed and I
lost contact for several years. Of course, I regretted not to
have kissed her very shortly afterwards, the quincunx just does
not allow to react so quickly to something very different than
oneself...
It was also important then that she is 1.5 years older than me.
She only visibly came into puberty in terms of clothes and makeup
and perfume etc. in the spring in which I fell in love with her.
And me, too, I was not early with puberty. So, I was behind in
those terms and that made an actual relation difficult.
About spring and Prague. There is a short story by Karel Capek,
called "The Blue Chrysanthenum", in which an old, half crazy
woman (crone, last moon phase, Hecate, Pisces, etc.) brings this
rarity (there are no blue Chrysanthenums, except if artifically
colored) to a guy who is the architect of a garden of a Prince
sometime in the past, rouhgly in the 18th or 19th century. He
and the Prince and policemen search the area several times, but
cannot find the blue Chrysanthenum, and yet the old woman does
bring some more every night. Symbolically, this is again a poetic
fusion of sun (Chrysanthenum means "gold flower") and the moon
(the blue color).
In the end, the guy is already in the train leaving the area and
suddenly he can see the flower in the garden of an employee of
the railways. He gets out of the train and walks there.
Now, there is no road to that tiny little garden besides the small
house, only the railways lead to it and there is a sign that says
do not enter. This is why the garden was not found in the searches
before that. The guy takes some flowers home, but at home it does
not grow well, the flower grows in spring, but develops fungus by
summer and always dies at the end of August. In the original garden
it was growing on hard, dry clay.
Many things lead from here: The old Egyptian goddess Heqet, symbol
of life and fertility, with the head of a frog, representing the
fertility of the Nile when from its flood many frogs apparently
come to life and the Scrabs's eggs hatch from their pills. She was
married to Khnum, as variation of ram-headed Amun. Khnum would form
babies out of clay and put them into the womb of women to make them
pregnant. The formation of life out of clay reminds, of course, of
Adam's first wife Lilith (my mean black moon Lilith is at 14*16
Pisces, i.e. right on her sun, which might even explain some of the
black-white contrast in her catwoman/joker image, or maybe not.
And there is the Golem of Prague (Golem means "unformed" or "embryo",
created at a given date and place, namely 17 March 1580 at 4 AM, by
Rabbi Loew and two more men, representing the 4 elements. And it was
near the Vlatva at a clay cavity, which reminds me of one of the maybe
most poetic creations, the excavator near the Vlatva in Capek's "The
Absolutum at Large" which turned into a religious symbol.
Artemis was responsible for child birth, since she already helped
at the birth of her twin brother Apollon, just after she herself was
born. So, there is a line from Heqet to Hecate to Artemis.
But back to the image of something growing in spring, prospering and
already decaying by summer and then dying near the end of August.
Prague spring in 1968 was ended by the Soviet invasion August 21st.
Pluto lost its planetary status on August 24th, 2006, or rather in
an again somewhat poetic move got categorized as a "dwarf planet",
which is sort of both a planet and not, it is symbolically, because
its name still says so, just with an added adjective.
Astronomy and astrology are important in Prague, of course. And king
Rudolf II had also a whole street of alchemists trying to make gold.
But back to my story...
In summer of 1986, I fell again in love with Pavlina, it was after
meeting a few people from my former school class, actually a movie
that one of them had made. I fell in love with Pavlina then even
though she was not present, but from then on it was obvious that I
could feel her if I looked into the direction in which she was, or
more precisely, if I oriented my head into that direction. When the
went to bed at evening, I had to tilt my head, too, in order to feel
her with the same intensity again. And I could also feel her, but in
a different way if I looked 180* into the wrong direction. All of
this later came into my "A few new discoveries in physics" document
of 2002, and the idea is spin 1 symmetry particles (likely photons)
and I guess most likely some new effect/physics involving virtual
photons, i.e. the forces between things.
In August, after returning from holidays with a (male) friend in
the south of France, where I could also always feel her, I called
her one evening. (By the way, unlike most people, at least unlike
most men, I do not have a compass built in, I do not know where
north is, unless I know the place from experience and comparison
with a map; so feeling her changed things in that respect for me,
which was also practically useful at times.)
She picked up the phone and I naively asked her if she wanted to
go out with me, to movies or so. She said no. And our conversation
also came quickly to two people who used to be in our class who
had recently died, most likely both of them by suicide, and it was
hen - me, naive young lion, not showing enough compassion - that
I suddenly felt like talking to a wall. So nothing I could do, at
least that was my feeling then, I was naively hoping to meet her
one more time by chance and that this way there would be an
opportunity again.
In early summer 1990, i.e. not long after the end of communism in
Russia and Eastern Europe ("Velvet Revolution" in Prague, again a
poetic combination of two apparently incompatible terms), I saw a
few times a woman at ETH (Swiss Institute of Technology) on the
Hoenggerberg, where I was studying physics at the time. And she
felt like Pavlina to me to some degree. Even though she seemed a
bit less tall than Pavlina, I felt like it might be her. So one
day I approached her in the Cafeteria outside and it turned out
as I saw immediately from up close because she had blue eyes and
not light brown one, that it was not her.
But it was also not just anybody. It was a woman who had gone to
school with her in Winterthur in the same school class. She knew
that Pavlina was studying Medicine at the University of Zurich,
and that she was living in houses that were about to be torn down.
I tried a few times to make some indirect contact by going to or
near the University, say around lunch time, but never saw her, and
just a few days later, I could feel that she was no longer in the
country. As I found out later, she had sometime around that time
left the country and moved to Prague and started to study stage
design there. She got married there, maybe not too long after that
to a British guy with an Irish name, also a bit younger than me,
and somewhat similar in looks, both maybe fitting what the melusine
choses, the handsome soldier or sailor, and also someone that looks
a bit like Kafka, with the ears going somewhat to the side. She
became mother of a son in about 1991. She made stage designs for
several plays as I could see on the internet, and directed at least
one short play, "Krapp's Last Tape" by Sanuel Beckett. Irish fits
also into the slot between Pisces and Aries, take St.Patrick's day.
In 1998, shortly after Neptune had moved into Aquarius, I took the
curage to call her sister in Zurich. (I had no address of Pavlina,
and did not know where she lived.) She told me where she lived and
also gave me her phone number in Prague. I called the number about
the next day also in the evening, and got a child's voice, probably
in Czech on the phone, almost certainly her son. Then she came to
the phone. I told her that I loved her and that I could feel her.
She told me that she was married, which I did not know at the time,
and it disturbed me that she replied with a fact to a statement of
love. Being married to someone and being (still) in love with that
person are not always things that are together. We talked very
briefly and me saying that I studied physics and was now working as
a software developer did almost certainly give her the impression
that I was just like her parents and her sister, all of them more
technically minded and had been working with computers.
There was a dream I once had with both sisters in it. We were together
at lunch, maybe at her parent's place. Afterwards we went for a walk.
I was talking to her sister and Pavlina was lagging behind us, as I
noticed. I turned around to meet her and she had some kind of pen
around her neck, with a necklace and the cover of the pen in shape of
a cone roughly as it was fabricated at the time. She wanted to put the
cover onto the pen again or rather the other way round and I wanted to
help her with that. But she wanted to do it herself and I let her do
so. This dream was probably in the very early 1990s. (Reminds me also
of the movie "Inception" that I saw just a few days ago ("top").)
In my imaginary or "imaginary" conversations with her, some things
look a bit different than in so-called objective reality. Possible,
of course, that this reflects just my wishes and nothing from her
side, but I do feel like I am just one aspect of her balancing in
her life her Magic Rectangle, with a real or "real" life in Prague
and a virtual/dream life that involves the telepathic contact with
me in Adliswil. Anyway, in these conversations, she said that I did
help her, that without me she might have committed suicide in the
past (talking roughly about the 1990s). Now this may seem like bad
influence from me, considering the happy image that at least the
current facebook photos of her and her familiy show, but it does
not feel like it to me, in the following ways.
A Mystic Rectangle is very susceptible to transiting planets in my
view, changes from trines and sextiles to t-square and quincunx etc.
and back to harmony again within just 5 days for the moon, for example.
Very difficult to balance, and the synastry of me and her is certainly
quite harmonic, if not too harmonic, with so many trines and sextiles
(but also oppositions) in it. Before I met her, my mood used to be
very constant and stable, but since I met her and fell in love with
her, I do feel considerably more change during a month. This may be
just a natural development with age, but whenever I do decouple
emotionally from her, variations clearly decrease.
I called her one more time, maybe two weeks later or so. I asked her
if she loved me, never loved me. When pressed that way, she replied
that she never loved me. That is the last time I spoke to her, I said
that I think she is wrong that she is deceiving herself there, but
what could I do. After all she has family and a life there, I am just
an intruder, there is no real-life objective provable path from me to
her. But there are indirect indications, like the woman I met at ETH.
Also, her sister married a guy with the same initials as me, and she
named her first and only child, a son, too, like me, Alain.
Does not feel to me like there is actually no connection at all, but
it may very well be that it is inaccessible to her conscious mind. In
my "conversations" with her, she "said" that had she not had a family
then, that she would have come to meet me right away, which may even
in my hopeful eyes be more my imagination or maybe her "tantalizing
schemes" in her unconscious or her just not spoken out way of handing
the balance between the opposites of her Mystic Rectangle.
The first name of her father is the same as the one of the philosopher
Edmund Husserl, who was born in the city she grew up. He wrote about
phenomenology, about perception of the world. Time for another quote
by Vera Linhartova (sun in early Aries):
"What we can say, goes into words. The words put themselves
between us and our conceptions, which have so far surrounded
us, like a new and independent element, like a third
partner in a game. Slowly we approach them and string them
together, one besides the other; they form an invisible
curtain, of which one cannot say, whether it connects us
with our conceptions or separates us from them. In the space
occupied with correlations that spans between us and our
conceptions, words like "connect" and "separate" loose their
common meaning and win a higher meaning shared by both of
them, "being in between"."
-- Vera Linhartova at the beginning of "Geschichten ohne
Zusammenhang" (Suhrkamp, 1965).
My work in public around astrology grows from there, the document
"A few new discoveries in physics" of 2002, my astrology programs
Delphi/astrolib for containing also the cryptographic hashes of my
discoveries in order to stake the claim, my involvement with Liz
Greene's work and psychological and otherwise astrology, my odyssey
in usenet - all in all just various attempts to maybe have to chance
to be a part of her life, not just virtually in dream world, but
maybe someday really again..
At the end of the day, despite all attempts to forget her and break
the connection with her, I still love her and feel her. I do feel
like fate is not treating me fairly. Sure, I got all this special
and unique work on astrology, how it works, and much more, and I also
managed to extract something on my own, namely the "xphi idea" to
describe elements from first principles. Sure, many of the symbols
appear also there, like the "cactus" in my drawing under "elementary
spacetime", reminding of Capek's "Stolen Cactus" story or also the
taking of photos of Cactus in Switzerland in Milan Kundera's novel
"The Unbearable Lightness of Being", and so on.
My first answer ever to a question to the I Ching was 64 Wei Chi.
* 64. Wei Chi / Before Completion
*
* above LI THE CLINGING, FLAME
* below K'AN THE ABYSMAL, WATER
*
* This hexagram indicates a time when the transition from disorder to order
* is not yet completed. The change is indeed prepared for, since all the
* lines in the upper trigram are in relation to those in the lower. However,
* they are not yet in their places. While the preceding hexagram offers an
* analogy to autumn, which forms the transition from summer to winter, this
* hexagram presents a parallel to spring, which leads out of winter's
* stagnation into the fruitful time of summer. With this hopeful outlook the
* Book of Changes come to its close.
*
* THE JUDGMENT
*
* BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
* But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
* Gets his tail in the water,
* There is nothing that would further.
*
* The conditions are difficult. The task is great and full of responsibility.
* It is nothing less than that of leading the world out of confusion back to
* order. But it is a task that promises success, because there is a goal that
* can unite the forces now tending in different directions. At first, however,
* one must move warily, like an old fox walking over ice. The caution of a
* fox walking over ice is proverbial in China. His ears are constantly alert
* to the cracking of the ice, as he carefully and circumspectly searches out
* the safest spots. A young fox who as yet has not acquired this caution goes
* ahead boldly, and it may happen that he falls in and gets his tail wet when
* he is almost across the water. Then of course his effort has been all in
* vain. Accordingly, in times "before completion," deliberation and caution
* are the prerequisites of success.
*
* THE IMAGE
*
* Fire over water:
*
* The image of the condition before transition.
*
* Thus the superior man is careful
* In the differentiation of things,
* So that each finds its place.
*
* When fire, which by nature flames upward, is above, and water, which flows
* downward, is below, their effects take opposite directions and remain
* unrelated. If we wish to achieve an effect, we must first investigate the
* nature of the forces in question and ascertain their proper place. If we can
* bring these forces to bear in the right place, they will have the desired
* effect and completion will be achieved. But in order to handle external
* forces properly, we must above all arrive at the correct standpoint
* ourselves, for only from this vantage can we work correctly.
The question was literally "What about Prague?" but in my mind it was
about whether me and Pavlina could ever get together. So what does Wei
Chi mean in this context, never, late in life, maybe in a next life,
or maybe get all these things indirectly, by reading Czech stuff, and
maybe a differnt woman with similar symbols around her?
Waiting for Godot ? Am I just writing one more of "Krapps' Tapes" now ?
I leave it to the reader to judge wether or how much of this connection
was real or imaginary, but remember the meeting at ETH in 1990 and the
name her sister chose for her son. Both very unlikely to happen without
a genuine connection between two apparently separate fates.
As for me, every day I can feel her and I love her. That is not going
to change, independently of whether we get some more direct contact in
the future or not, but I still dream of it. I have no choice, at least
not in the "virtual world". In the real world, I could maybe someday
find another woman, will have to see, I am not as good as Pavlina seems
to be at juggling opposites. You know, maybe I am just one of many
"balls" that she has juggled in her life, maybe my importance on her
side is really negligible. Who knows for sure, she leaves no traces in
objective, outer reality, so proof is impossible either way.
But if the little fox...
I would still love to meet her again. But I do also feel betrayed;
not that I could say by whom exactly, maybe life, maybe fate, maybe
my own approach to life, but I can't help loving her, it is just
not something that one can decide consciously, at least not without
simply banning something that is there to unconscious Tartaros.
Adliswil, 5 August 2010, 8:57
[Just when it seemed that things could go on like this for many
more years and when Hermes appeared to take a deep breath, maybe
in a attempt to change costumes once more - he suddenly but also
very calmly turned around and faced the audience for the first
time, with maybe one previous exception, and said the following]
So, where is this going to go? Isn't it obvious that Odysseus
and the Sirens form an inseparable unit anyway? Without the
Sirens, Odysseus would not be something special, and without
Odysseus nobody would remember the Sirens. The reason they are
rememebered is that they are a unit and at the same time always
remain separated. Pavlina's pictures are just shields! ...
Hah! Got you again. No, seriously, where is this going?
Well, with the author's s.node Firduria ending in a few days,
he might even realize that Pavlina has, of course, a Capricorn
AC like any respectable tree nymph and in her case with a mean
black moon Lilith there, so therefore the catwoman/joker image,
and her Neptune in Scorpio at the MC can do just as well as a
Pisces MC, right? ... No, got you again, what are you thinking,
are you stupid? That abstruse idea that s.node Firduria could
be more than just a mental token for the retarded - but luring
you in again into sideways thinking, right? What are you
thinking, really? Do you believe everything you are told?
No, he will simply write his web site and develop what he calls
his "xphi idea", the idea that space starts with in/out, time
with rest/move and the combinations form the 4 elements. That
idea will slowly grow and they will privately keep dancing like
they already are doing for many centuries, like the "Ginger and
Fred" tree drawing on his web site (or Gehry building in Prague,
close to where Pavlina lives or at least lived some time ago).
Luring you in again? Anyway, he will just keep low and thus
evade the slowly reemerging curiosity of people and in the end,
who knows maybe the two will even meet in this life again, not
that he - Odysseus - would mind, but I am starting to deceive
you again - or maybe not? Art is all that remains, right?
Then again, he may simply chose another nymph... ;)
[Hermes, noticing that people are starting to believe again all
he might say - hey, just get in touch if you two really love
each other and can feel each other, if not, don't - and turns
sideways once more and quotes Vera Linhartova a third time,
from her short story called (not!) Plato's Cave]
"But who would claim that a sign ceases to be a sign just
because its cause has been revealed?"
[Hermes turns into a mirror that becomes transparent and
then disappears, until, but invent something yourself...]
)o+
--
PS: Do you, the readers, really think that there would be so
much back and forth in me without a connection to a Mystic
Rectangle influenced by the ever moving moon? Or what? :)
And what about the moon-moon conjunction in Aries, would
the impatience really be so huge from me alone? :)
[originally written in early August 2010]
"The oddest thing of all, the thing that most strikes us when we
embark on a story is the total void spreading out before us. The
events have occurred and lie all around us in a continuous, form-
less mass without beginning or end. We can start anywhere..."
-- Vera Linhartova (as quoted in "Bringing up Girls in Bohemia")
This post is about my life and fate with or "with" Pavlina; a Czech
girl I fell in love with in the spring of 1982 and who has almost
all planets in her birth chart arranged in a Mystic Rectangle in
the signs Pisces, Virgo, Taurus and Scorpio.
The ambivalence and "mystic" side of this is already evident from
the use of 'with or "with"' above, and it certainly has also quite
a bit to do with that Mystic Rectangle, as I hope to expose. There
are both good reasons for 'with' and '"with"' in what I am going
to tell and in the end it may remain a matter of taste on the side
of the reader (or maybe on the birth chart of the reader), whether
to go rather with 'with' or with '"with"'.
Here is the birth data:
Alain (me): 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich, Switzerland
Pavlina: 1965-03-05 12:00? Ostrava?, Czechoslovakia
Her birth date is from a public source, the yearbook of a school
in Winterthur, Switzerland she went to between about 1983 and 1986;
birth time and place are guesses, more on them later.
Her Mystic Rectangle involves all planets except the moon. They
are all in female signs:
Pisces: Venus(5*10), Saturn(8*27), Sun(14*41), Mercury(23*05)
Virgo: Uranus(12*42), Pluto(15*03), Mars(20*20)
Taurus: Jupiter(20*41)
Scorpio: Neptune(19*57)
Not all are technically part of the rectangle; in total there is
an excess of oppositions, which make this Mystic Rectangle probably
more difficult to handle than it usually is. Using orbs of 10* for
trines, oppositions and conjunctions and 6* for sextiles, the total
numbers for each aspect are:
Oppositions: 10
Conjunctions: 6
Trines: 5
Sextiles: 3
The sun has three oppositions, with Pluto (very close orb) and with
Uranus and Mars - I imagine not a very cheerful experience in the
first moment of life, to have the sun (self/life) faced with these
three. Uranus sees also three oppositions, Pluto four.
She works or worked as a stage designer in Prague, and as part of
that - according to the dissertation of Gwendolyn Orel - she once
built a device that served both as a door and a bed in a play of
Kafka's "The Trial". Now, at first sight, a bed and a door do not
have much in common. But wait. They are both rectangles, so they
look like a Mystic Rectangle. A door can open or close the passage
between two rooms or even two worlds. The bed is metaphorically
also the gate between two worlds, like awake and asleep/dreaming,
and conception, birth and death often take place in a bed.
This brings me to the word "Prague". According to Wikipedia, the
word comes from "praga", which means "ford", in the case of Prague
across the Vlatva river. The Greek goddess Hecate was associated
with crossroads. She is a very old goddess, definitely older than
the generation of Zeus and I suspect even older than the known
ones before them. Together with Artemis (new moon), they protect
beginnings and ends, i.e. in the Zodiac foremost the spring point
around 30* Pisces resp. 0* Aries.
Libuse, the mythological foundress of Prague, was the daughter of
Niva ("lea"/"mead") a tree nymph, whose life was bound to an oak
tree - if the tree died, so would she. Her chosen husband Krok
would normally guard the tree, but once it was hit by lightning
and she died. (Actually she would not really die, just sleep a
deep sleep that is similar to the sleep of regular human beings.)
In the Celtic tree circle, the oak tree is the first day of spring.
She had three daughters, with various magic abilities. Her youngest
daughter, Libuse, was additionally gifted with great wisdom and
intelligence. She was settling disputes while sitting below a Linden
tree (the last 10 days of winter in the Celtic tree circle), but
people were not happy that a woman decided their fate and so she
prophesized where the people could find her husband and/or had her
white horse lead them to him. She married him and they founded
Prague. So far, this sounds quite a bit like the usual mythological
story around the transition between matriarchy and patriarchy.
But take a look at this image for magazine "La Plume" by Alphonse
Mucha, Czech Art Nouveau painter who was a long time in Paris:
http://www.sabian.org/oracle.htm
It shows the head of a beautiful young woman ("Libuse") inside a
zodiac wheel. But wait. If you look carefully, the wheel would be
14 signs wide. Technically that was just a trick for the painter
to show all 12 signs and still have room for the neck of the woman
between Pisces and Aries, from where it grows like the oak tree
at the beginning of spring. But here she grew the slot between
death and rebirth, the only time when the soul is truly free, and
not bound by a birth chart. In the "Sleeping Beauty" fairy tale,
the 13th fairy is angry because the king did not invite her. He
had only 12 plates with a golden rim, a symbol for the 12 solar
months of the year, while in terms of the shorter lunar months,
it would be closer to 13 months. Libuse again avoids the problem
very elegantly, by creating 14, not 12 or 13 signs.
Astrologically, this allows also to give rulership to each of the
7 traditional planets over 2 signs. So sun and moon get an extra
sign, as it appears in sort of a "black" variant, without being
really heavy and dark in the usual plutonic sense. You can see the
sun and the moon in the lower corners of the Mucha drawing above.
This creative poetry of the first moment in spring, and preserving
it eternally, is the secret of Libuse which becomes no less mystic
even if you know it in principle. Thomas Garrige Masaryk, the first
president of Czechoslovakia wrote:
"Politics, too, demand a balance between reason and feeling.
Even in the most delicate political situation we must notice
and plan carefully, what, how and on whom we can count; it has
to be as accurate as mathematics; our feelings must never err
in their observations and calculations. But the aim, the ideal,
is not laid down by reason alone, but by feeling also. The means
are dictated by reason; but we can change the situation to suit
our aim, we can introduce new elements into it, something of
our own. That is creation; that is the poetry of life."
-- http://homepage.mac.com/williamszone/dostal/chapter12/chapter12.html
But let me start telling the actual story. In 1982, I was too
shy to approach her directly. I am not sure how she experienced
things, but she did once write "I LOVE YOU ALAIN" on my pocket
calculator during a break, not sure how exactly it was meant.
I should maybe mention a few more astrological factors, just in
case the reader is too lazy to plot the charts based on the data
given earlier on. Her moon is at 8*45 Aries for the time given.
How I got to the time (earlier I favored a time of 10:15 AM, but
back to this summer night's dream), is based on Pedantus' method
of comparing images with birth chart, in this case between her
birth chart and three images she used on Facebook. Here is the
current one, as ascii art and so too blurred to recognize her:
[use fixed width font...]
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????;;;;;::::::::^:^`::`^^^^^^..` .:::++++1zz11++?;????====lllttrvvuuXWHQQQQQkkWppppbbbbbbbbpppffWXw
???;;;;::::::^^:^:^:.`^`^^^^.J+++J&&uwwQQQkkAAsAwXkwwzzzz==ltttrrvvXXH########HM###HMMMNNNNHHkkkWXXX
;;;::```^^`...^`.``.^`.``.`+1Zi&zjwZXMNM#HMM@MMMMMMMMMNmAwOzlltrrvXwMNMN######MM####NNNN########HH#H
;:::^^^^........ `.` .?++&+dkWHH0jXWMMM##MMMMM#HMMMMMMMMMNkvOzOtOtdHMMMMMMMMMMMMNMMMMMMNNNNNN####MM#
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lll==???;?;;;:+`.+1OWMMMMMMMM@MHHHkW@MNMMNNMNMNMMMMMMMMNMM@HHAwzdppppkwzllllttttrrrvvzdMKuuuuZZuZZZZ
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The rectangle of her face (and the door frame behind her, which is
not visible in the ascii art reduction) are what I would most likely
identify with her Mystic Rectangle. This would give two time frames
for her birth date, about 4 AM and about 12 noon.
Around 4 AM her AC is in Capricorn and her MC in Scorpio and her moon
would be below her chin. Around 12 noon, her AC is in Cancer, her MC
in Pisces, and her moon would be in her hair above her forehead. To me,
the second option fits better, for essentially two reasons, as follows.
The moon in Aries fits better with the wild hair to me than with the
chin. Her previous two Facebook images were very diverse in my view
and adapted to the time they were posted, in ways which would fit in
my feeling best with Pisces: The first image was the head of catwoman
wearing a joker mask, i.e. two masks on top of each other. The head
was in the lower left corner of the image, which was otherwise black.
The catwoman suit was black, the mask white. This is again something
special (Masaryk was a Pisces, too, by the way), two masks on top of
each other. I remember that the German teacher in the school I went
to with her in about 1982 discussed one of her compositions once, and
mentioned a world view in which all people are actors playing a role.
That fits quite well with Jupiter and Pisces. (But I should note that
for the 4 AM chart, Neptune in Scorpio is conjunct the MC too). The
teacher exposing this view in "public" relates it to the MC.
The image had likely been posted early this year, maybe in January or
February, and it reflects in my Jexler Java open source project that I
had very briefly started at that time, and other things in the world
around that time. The second image, that was first up maybe a month or
a bit longer ago, was her face seen from the side and it was probably
a more current photo than the most recent one above where she is facing
the camera. Reminded me a lot of the mentioned Mucha painting, which I
was considering in that timeframe, and other things that were sideways
("Egyptian") around that time.
In all images a rectangle with roughly the orientation of the last one,
i.e. a "door" standing up in the usual way, just slightly tilted to the
side, can be seen. In the first image (catwoman/joker), the rectangle
could also be tilted the other way.
My moon is an Aries, too, but later in Aries, at 17*17. So still loosely
conjunct with her moon, which might in my view and experience still be
very important, given that her moon is quite lonely in her birth chart,
not part of the Mystic Rectangle, with at most semi- or sesquisquares
to other planets (depending on the time of birth, of course).
My sun at 14*11 Leo is at a quincunx to her sun, which explains maybe
some more of the mystic fascination. If you follow quincunxes nominally
in the zodiac, you plot an image of a sun with 12 rays, symbolizing in
my view the long path it takes in order to understand the other side of
a quincunx, maybe a whole life (sun)...
The image of a sun reflects also in my two life planets (sun and moon)
in Leo (ruled by the sun) resp. Aries (sun exalted). The image fits
with Cherubim, and also many other Jewish things (Age of Aries), in
particular in combination with her moon also in Aries. Her last name
by marriage means "craw", and the last name of her mother was the
Yiddish word for a little bird (plus the usual "ova" appended to it).
Kafka is a jackdaw, i.e. roughly a craw, too. I remember that in one
of my two visits in Prague I was at the Jewish cemetery in which the
ground is several meters above ground, because Jewish religion does
not allow to dig up old dead bodies. There were high trees and high
above craws or raven were flying around.
These birds are the animals of Apollon and Artemis (sun and moon), and
the number 7 was sacred to them. So the zodiac of 14=7+7 signs in the
Mucha "La Plume" (the feather) drawing is in their realm, so to speak.
(7 is, of course, also related to Saturn, the 7th planet.)
Artemis, when a three year old child and sitting on Zeus' knees, was
asked by him what she wanted from life. She wanted eternal virginity,
as many names as her twin brother Apollon, a bow and arrow, lots of
ocean and river nymphs as companions - and a city.
Zeus gave her 30 cities, which I guess are Paris, London, New York,
Berlin, and more, but most importantly Prague, of course. Prague was
symbolically so important to her that the Czechs did not fight at
all when Hitler invaded, so Prague was not bombed. Libuse did still
symbolically show who rules the city when the German commander of
the city was killed by Czech resistance. Again the gain of doing that
was poetically symbolic. The German retaliation killed many more
Czechs, but if you were an entire city, would you consider that loss
worth to make the statement?
Many of my planets are part of a grand trine in water signs:
Cancer: Mars(17*58), Venus(19*47), Jupiter(20*19)
Scorpio: Neptune(19*24), n.node(21*12)
Pisces: Saturn(29*06), Cheiron(25*35)
Oh yes, I forgot to mention that Pavlina's n.node is in Gemini, at
18*48 Gemini, which is also very close to where the nodes are in
the birth chart of astrologer Liz Greene. See some of the things I
posted in the past about these relations, including the stories in
the past, including Isabel Hickey and maybe further back into past
generations...
Both of Pavlina's parents have Pluto in Leo. And she has an older
sister, Simona, who went to the same school as she and I in the
early 1980s. But let me finally expose a few real life events from
the past. In 1983, a year after I had fallen in love with her, she
switched school to Winterthur, from a more technical/scientific
school to one oriented more towards language. As I heard later,
her new class consisted only of women and she was the tallest of
them, which she reportedly like, and which reminds, in retrospect,
of course a lot of Artemis and her orgiastic nymphs.
I met her a few more times, usually on meetings with others from
my school class. One was sledging down from Uetliberg in Zurich
(and before that walking up). One other was a mask party, in which
I was wearing a kind of superhero costume that looked maybe a bit
silly, and to that party she and her sister came with two guys,
and I remember an other girl from my class announcing that they
would come with two gay guys. I do not remember enough about how
they looked like in order to judge now whether that was true, but
she did kiss one of them on the mouth that evening. The third
meeting and the last in which I spoke to her face to face was a
dinner, and I remember her hair that was going over her face, so
that her face was almost completely hidden from view.
She told me that she would usually go to school with a Vespa, a
guy going to the same school would take her there. That means I
was already 18 by then, i.e. it was 1984 or a bit later, when I,
too was already driving a Vespa, and actually I do not know why
I chose to want a Vespa. Another one of many symmetries between
me an her. At the end of that evening when saying goodbye, she
closed her eyes and pointed her lips for a kiss, but I backed off,
not prepared for it and still a bit mad a her for having kissed
an other guy last time I met her. So, the moment passed and I
lost contact for several years. Of course, I regretted not to
have kissed her very shortly afterwards, the quincunx just does
not allow to react so quickly to something very different than
oneself...
It was also important then that she is 1.5 years older than me.
She only visibly came into puberty in terms of clothes and makeup
and perfume etc. in the spring in which I fell in love with her.
And me, too, I was not early with puberty. So, I was behind in
those terms and that made an actual relation difficult.
About spring and Prague. There is a short story by Karel Capek,
called "The Blue Chrysanthemum", in which an old, half crazy
woman (crone, last moon phase, Hecate, Pisces, etc.) brings this
rarity (there are no blue Chrysanthemums, except if artificially
colored) to a guy who is the architect of a garden of a Prince
sometime in the past, roughly in the 18th or 19th century. He
and the Prince and policemen search the area several times, but
cannot find the blue Chrysanthemum, and yet the old woman does
bring some more every night. Symbolically, this is again a poetic
fusion of sun (Chrysanthemum means "gold flower") and the moon
(the blue color).
In the end, the guy is already in the train leaving the area and
suddenly he can see the flower in the garden of an employee of
the railways. He gets out of the train and walks there.
Now, there is no road to that tiny little garden besides the small
house, only the railways lead to it and there is a sign that says
do not enter. This is why the garden was not found in the searches
before that. The guy takes some flowers home, but at home they do
not grow well, the flowers grow in spring, but develop fungus by
summer and always die at the end of August. In the original garden
it had been growing on very hard, dry clay.
Many things lead from here: The old Egyptian goddess Heqet, symbol
of life and fertility, with the head of a frog, representing the
fertility of the Nile when from its flood many frogs apparently
come to life and the scarabs's eggs hatch from their pills. She was
married to Khnum, as variation of ram-headed Amun. Khnum would form
babies out of clay and put them into the womb of women to make them
pregnant. The formation of life out of clay reminds, of course, of
Adam's first wife Lilith (my mean black moon Lilith is at 14*16
Pisces, i.e. right on her sun, which might even explain some of the
black-white contrast in her catwoman/joker image, or maybe not).
And there is the Golem of Prague (Golem means "unformed" or "embryo"),
created at a given date and place, namely 17 March 1580 at 4 AM, by
Rabbi Loew and two more men, representing the 4 elements. And it was
near the Vlatva at a clay cavity, which reminds me of one of the maybe
most poetic creations, the excavator near the Vlatva in Capek's "The
Absolutum at Large" which turned into a religious symbol.
Artemis was responsible for child birth, since she already helped
at the birth of her twin brother Apollon, just after she herself was
born. So, there is a line from Heqet to Hecate to Artemis. (And on
to Alexander the Great, who was born when Artemis' temple, the 7th
World Wonder, burnt down - she was guarding the birth of Alexander
at the time..., so Alexander's fate was also her Phoenix.)
But back to the image of something growing in spring, prospering and
already decaying by summer and then dying near the end of August.
Prague spring in 1968 was ended by the Soviet invasion August 21st.
Pluto lost its planetary status on August 24th, 2006, in Prague, or
rather in an again somewhat poetic move got categorized as a "dwarf
planet", which is sort of both a planet and not, it is symbolically,
because its name still says so, just with an added adjective.
Astronomy and astrology are important in Prague, of course. And king
Rudolf II had also a whole street of alchemists trying to make gold.
But back to my story...
In summer of 1986, I fell again in love with Pavlina, it was after
meeting a few people from my former school class, actually seeing
a movie that one of them had made. I fell in love with Pavlina then
even though she was not present, but from then on it was obvious
that I could feel her if I looked into the direction in which she
was, or more precisely, if I oriented my head into that direction.
When she went to bed at evening, I had to tilt my head, too, in
order to feel her with the same intensity again. And I could also
feel her, but in a different way if I looked 180* into the wrong
direction. All of this later came into my "A few new discoveries
in physics" document of 2002, and the idea is that this effect is
related to spin 1 symmetry particles (likely photons) and I guess
most likely some new effect/physics involving virtual photons,
i.e. the forces between things. (Libuse ("lieb") actually likes
physics quite a bit, the usenet news group about string theory was
founded by a Czech, and string theory itself is a theory that had
been tried to be applied to reality in many different ways, but so
far evaded being tied to a specific reality, I related this to Pan
and Capricorn in a former post...)
In August, after returning from holidays with a (male) friend in
the south of France, where I could also always feel her, I called
her one evening. (By the way, unlike most people, at least unlike
most men, I do not have a compass built in, I do not know where
north is, unless I know the place from experience and comparison
with a map; so feeling her changed things in that respect for me,
which was also practically useful at times, as long as I had an
idea of where she roughly was at the time.)
She picked up the phone and I naively asked her if she wanted to
go out with me, to movies or so. She said no. And our conversation
also quickly came to two people who used to be in our class, who
had recently died, most likely both of them by suicide, and it was
when - me, naive young lion, not showing enough compassion - that
I suddenly felt like talking to a wall. So nothing I could do, at
least that was my feeling then - I was naively hoping to meet her
one more time by chance and that this way there would be an
opportunity again.
In early summer 1990, i.e. not long after the end of communism in
Russia and Eastern Europe ("Velvet Revolution" in Prague, again a
poetic combination of two apparently incompatible terms), I saw a
few times a woman (from some distance) at ETH (Swiss Institute of
Technology) on the Hoenggerberg, where I was studying physics at
the time. And she felt like Pavlina to me to some degree. Even
though she seemed a bit less tall than Pavlina, I felt like it might
still be her. So one day I approached her in the Cafeteria outside
and it turned out as I saw immediately from up close because she
ad blue eyes and not light brown one, that it was not her.
But it was also not just anybody. It was a woman who had gone to
school with her in Winterthur, in the same school class. She knew
that Pavlina was studying medicine at the University of Zurich,
and that she was living in houses that were about to be torn down.
I tried a few times to make some "chance" contact by going to or
near the University, say around lunch time, but never saw her, and
just a few days later, I could feel that she was no longer in the
country. As I found out later, she had sometime around that time
left the country and moved to Prague and started to study stage
design there. She got married there, maybe not too long after that
to a British guy with an Irish name, also a bit younger than her,
and somewhat similar in looks, both maybe fitting what the Melusine
choses, the handsome soldier or sailor, and also someone that looks
a bit like Kafka, with the ears going somewhat to the side. She
became mother of a son in about 1991. She made stage designs for
several plays as I could see on the internet, and directed at least
one short play, "Krapp's Last Tape" by Samuel Beckett. Irish fits
also into the slot between Pisces and Aries, take St.Patrick's day.
In 1998, shortly after Neptune had moved into Aquarius, I took the
courage to call her sister in Zurich. (I had no address of Pavlina,
and did not know where she lived.) She told me where she lived and
also gave me her phone number in Prague. I called the number about
the next day also in the evening, and got a child's voice, probably
in Czech on the phone, almost certainly her son. Then she came to
the phone. I told her that I loved her and that I could feel her.
She told me that she was married, which I did not know at the time,
and it disturbed me that she replied with a fact to a statement of
love. Being married to someone and being (still) in love with that
person are not always things that are together. We talked very
briefly and me saying that I studied physics and was now working as
a software developer did almost certainly give her the impression
that I was just like her parents and her sister, all of them more
technically minded and had been working with computers.
There was a dream I once had with both sisters in it. We were together
at lunch, maybe at her parent's place. Afterwards we went for a walk.
I was talking to her sister and Pavlina was lagging behind us, as I
noticed. I turned around to meet her and she had some kind of pen
around her neck, with a necklace and the cover of the pen in shape of
a cone roughly as it was fabricated at the time. She wanted to put the
cover onto the pen again or rather the other way round and I wanted to
help her with that. But she wanted to do it herself and I let her do
so. This dream was probably in the very early 1990s. (Reminds me also
of the movie "Inception" that I saw just a few days ago ("top"), and
of a Tintin book with extraterrestrials landing on a volcano island.)
In my imaginary or "imaginary" conversations with her, some things
look a bit different than in so-called objective reality. Possible,
of course, that this reflects only *my* wishes and nothing from her
side, but I do feel like I am just one aspect of her balancing in
her life her Magic Rectangle, with a real or "real" life in Prague
and a virtual/dream life that involves the telepathic contact with
me in Adliswil. Anyway, in these conversations, she said that I did
help her, that without me she might have committed suicide in the
past (talking roughly about the 1990s). Now this may seem like bad
influence from me now, considering the happy image that at least the
current Facebook photos of her and her family show, but it does not
feel like it to me, in the following ways.
A Mystic Rectangle is very susceptible to transiting planets in my
view, changes from trines and sextiles to t-square and quincunx etc.
and back to harmony again within just 5 days for the moon, for example.
Very difficult to balance, and the synastry of me and her is certainly
quite harmonic, if not too harmonic, with so many trines and sextiles
(but also oppositions) in it. Before I met her, my mood used to be
very constant and stable, but since I met her and fell in love with
her, I do feel considerably more change during a month. This may be
just a natural development with age, but whenever I do decouple
emotionally from her, such variations clearly decrease.
I called her one more time, maybe two weeks later or so. I asked her
if she loved me, if she never loved me. When pressed that way, she
replied that she never loved me. That is the last time I spoke to her,
I said that I think she is wrong that she is deceiving herself there,
but what could I do. After all she has family and a life there, I am
just an intruder, there is no real-life objective provable path from
me to her.
But there are indirect indications, like the woman I met at ETH.
Also, her sister married a guy with the same initials as me, and she
named her first and only child (a son, too), like me, Alain.
Does not feel to me like there is actually no connection at all, but
it may very well be that it is inaccessible to her conscious mind. In
my "conversations" with her, she "said" that had she not had a family
then, she would have come to meet me right away, which may even in my
hopeful eyes be more my imagination or maybe her "tantalizing schemes"
in her unconscious or her unspoken ways of handing the balance between
the opposites of her Mystic Rectangle.
The first name of her father is the same as the one of the philosopher
Edmund Husserl, who was born in the city she grew up (Ostrava). Husserl
wrote about phenomenology, about perception of the world. Time for
another quote by Vera Linhartova (her sun is in early Aries):
"What we can say, goes into words. The words put themselves
between us and our conceptions, which have so far surrounded
us, like a new and independent element, like a third partner
in a game. Slowly we approach them and string them together,
one besides the other; they form an invisible curtain, of which
one cannot say, whether it connects us with our conceptions
or separates us from them. In the space occupied with correlation
that spans between us and our conceptions, words like "connect"
and "separate" loose their common meaning and win a higher
meaning shared by both of them, "being in between"."
-- Vera Linhartova at the beginning of "Geschichten ohne
Zusammenhang" (Suhrkamp, 1965).
My work in public around astrology grows from there, the document
"A few new discoveries in physics" of 2002, my astrology programs
Delphi/astrolib for containing also the cryptographic hashes of my
discoveries in order to stake the claim, my involvement with Liz
Greene's work and psychological and otherwise astrology, my odyssey
in usenet - all in all just various attempts to maybe have to chance
to be a part of her life, not just virtually in dream world, but
maybe someday really again..
At the end of the day, despite all attempts to forget her and break
the connection with her, I still love her and feel her. I do feel
like fate is not treating me fairly. Sure, I got all this special
and unique work on astrology, how it works, and much more, and I also
managed to extract something on my own, namely the "xphi idea" to
describe elements from first principles. Sure, many of the symbols
appear also there, like the "cactus" in my drawing under "elementary
spacetime", reminding of Capek's "Stolen Cactus" story or also the
taking of photos of Cactus in Switzerland in Milan Kundera's novel
"The Unbearable Lightness of Being", and so on. In that sense, I may
- like already with the Vespa - have become just one of the things
in Libuse's eternal collection of symbols.
My first answer ever to a question to the I Ching was 64 Wei Chi.
* 64. Wei Chi / Before Completion
*
* above LI THE CLINGING, FLAME
* below K'AN THE ABYSMAL, WATER
*
* This hexagram indicates a time when the transition from disorder to order
* is not yet completed. The change is indeed prepared for, since all the
* lines in the upper trigram are in relation to those in the lower. However,
* they are not yet in their places. While the preceding hexagram offers an
* analogy to autumn, which forms the transition from summer to winter, this
* hexagram presents a parallel to spring, which leads out of winter's
* stagnation into the fruitful time of summer. With this hopeful outlook the
* Book of Changes come to its close.
*
* THE JUDGMENT
*
* BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
* But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
* Gets his tail in the water,
* There is nothing that would further.
*
* The conditions are difficult. The task is great and full of responsibility.
* It is nothing less than that of leading the world out of confusion back to
* order. But it is a task that promises success, because there is a goal that
* can unite the forces now tending in different directions. At first, however,
* one must move warily, like an old fox walking over ice. The caution of a
* fox walking over ice is proverbial in China. His ears are constantly alert
* to the cracking of the ice, as he carefully and circumspectly searches out
* the safest spots. A young fox who as yet has not acquired this caution goes
* ahead boldly, and it may happen that he falls in and gets his tail wet when
* he is almost across the water. Then of course his effort has been all in
* vain. Accordingly, in times "before completion," deliberation and caution
* are the prerequisites of success.
*
* THE IMAGE
*
* Fire over water:
*
* The image of the condition before transition.
*
* Thus the superior man is careful
* In the differentiation of things,
* So that each finds its place.
*
* When fire, which by nature flames upward, is above, and water, which flows
* downward, is below, their effects take opposite directions and remain
* unrelated. If we wish to achieve an effect, we must first investigate the
* nature of the forces in question and ascertain their proper place. If we can
* bring these forces to bear in the right place, they will have the desired
* effect and completion will be achieved. But in order to handle external
* forces properly, we must above all arrive at the correct standpoint
* ourselves, for only from this vantage can we work correctly.
-- Richard Wilhelm translation, English by Cary F. Baynes
The question was literally "What about Prague?" but in my mind it was
about whether me and Pavlina could ever get together. So what does Wei
Chi mean in this context, never, late in life, maybe in a next life,
or maybe get all these things indirectly, by reading Czech stuff, and
maybe a different woman with similar symbols around her?
Waiting for Godot ? Am I just writing one more of "Krapp's Tapes" now ?
I leave it to the reader to judge whether or how much of this connection
was real or imaginary, but remember the meeting at ETH in 1990 and the
name her sister chose for her son. Both very unlikely to happen without
a genuine connection between two apparently separate fates.
(At the Astrology World Congress 2000 in Lucerne, Liz Greene related the
12th house to "clandestine relationships", which taken literally would
mean relations between the "destinies of clans" rather than destinies
between individual beings. See also Gwen Orel's story about her airline
"Limbo Down" between Zurich and Prague and she ended up with some poetic
experiences and giving a book away... http://www.litvision.org/orel.html
so Artemis and Apollon still dancing, like Ginger and Fred? But I am
getting ahead of my reasoning - forget this, until..., well until it
makes sense...)
As for me, every day I can feel her and I love her. That is not going
to change, independently of whether we get some more direct contact in
the future or not, but I still dream of it. I have no choice, at least
not in the "virtual world". In the real world, I could maybe someday
find another woman, will have to see, I am not as good as Pavlina seems
to be at juggling opposites. You know, maybe I am just one of many
"balls" that she has juggled in her life, maybe my importance on her
side is really negligible. Who knows for sure, she leaves no traces in
objective, outer reality, so proof is impossible either way.
But if the little fox...
I would still love to meet her again. But I do also feel betrayed;
not that I could say by whom exactly, maybe life, maybe fate, maybe
my own approach to life, but I can't help loving her, it is just
not something that one can decide consciously, at least not without
simply banning something that *is* to unconscious Tartaros.
Adliswil, 5 August 2010, 8:57 [originally]
[Just when it seemed that things could go on like this for many
more years and when Hermes appeared to take a deep breath, maybe
in an attempt to change costumes once more - he suddenly but also
very calmly turned around and faced the audience for the first
time, with maybe one previous exception, and said the following]
So, where is this going to go? Isn't it obvious that Odysseus
and the Sirens form an inseparable unit anyway? Without the
Sirens, Odysseus would not be something special, and without
Odysseus nobody would remember the Sirens. The reason they are
remembered is that they are a unit and at the same time always
remain separated. Pavlina's pictures are just shields! ...
Hah! Got you again. No, seriously, where is this going?
Well, with the author's s.node Firduria ending in a few days,
he might even realize that Pavlina has, of course, a Capricorn
AC like any respectable tree nymph and in her case with a mean
black moon Lilith there, so therefore the catwoman/joker image,
and her Neptune in Scorpio at the MC can do just as well as a
Pisces MC, right? ... No, got you again, what are you thinking,
are you stupid? That abstruse idea that s.node Firduria could
be more than just a mental token for the retarded - but luring
you in again into sideways thinking, right? What are you
thinking, really? Do you believe everything you are told?
No, he will simply write his web site and develop what he calls
his "xphi idea", the idea that space starts with in/out, time
with rest/move and the combinations form the 4 elements. That
idea will slowly grow and they will privately keep dancing like
they already are doing for many centuries, like the "Ginger and
Fred" tree drawing on his web site (or Gehry building in Prague,
close to where Pavlina lives or at least lived some time ago).
Luring you in again? Anyway, he will just keep low and thus
evade the slowly reemerging curiosity of people and in the end,
who knows maybe the two will even meet in this life again, not
that he - Odysseus - would mind, but I am starting to deceive
you again - or maybe not? Art is all that remains, right?
Then again, he may simply chose another nymph... ;)
[Hermes, noticing that people are starting to believe again all
he might say - hey, just get in touch if you two really love
each other and can feel each other, if not, don't - and turns
sideways once more and quotes Vera Linhartova the third time,
from her short story called (not!) Plato's Cave]
"But who would claim that a sign ceases to be a sign just
because its cause has been revealed?"
[Hermes turns into a mirror that becomes transparent and
then disappears, until, but invent something yourself...]
)o+
--
PS: Do you, the readers, really think that there would be so
much back and forth in me without a connection to a Mystic
Rectangle influenced by the ever moving moon? Or what? :)
And what about the moon-moon conjunction in Aries, would
the impatience really be so huge from me alone? :)
PPS: Does she maybe have an AC in early Cancer, like the lady
in Mucha's painting? (By the way, anybody noticed that in the
painting, the signs are plotted the other way than usual?)
Postscript 8 August 2010:
Yesterday, 7 August (my 44th birthday) I spent in the french
speaking part of Switzerland, where a friend with his family
is on holidays, camping. The day had all elements of sun/moon
in Leo/Cancer, night and day, young and old, all kinds of
animals (cats, dogs, fish, birds, etc.), and so on, almost
the whole spectrum of life (and death), in a tamed way.
You may think about what I wrote about Pavlina what you want,
but my heart - and I am usually not seeing things so black -
tells me still that the construct that was somehow chosen,
by whoever, has come to its end and since I myself already
tried all approaches, direct, indirect and on my side only
or not, I am very worried about what may happen, afraid that
when something should happen on her side, it would then be
too late to do anything about it any more. :( :( :(
I hope this is just the afterglow of my s.node Firduria, with
Neptune in Scorpio conjunct the s.node, an illusion emphasized
during the previous two years and would not mind, of course,
should things simply relax again to a normal level, but again,
very likely I would not have written down all I have about this
rather private story, unless at least I was worried a lot. But
maybe it was just a combination of previous times, including
maybe also some strange influencces from usenet and generally
astrologers. (Just in case such influences are now reflected
by a mirror on my side and would no longer have any effect.)
Keeping my fingers crossed and I wish I had an option - to do
nothing will help nothing, any direct approaches lead nowhere,
as the past has unmistakably shown, and together with almost
all direct ones can only ridiculize me, but not help anyone.
Hey, maybe I really just don't get all these things about what
goes on unspoken behind the scenes, I really wish is was so.
)o+
[use fixed width font, or see web site]
(C) 2002-now Alain Stalder
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Welcome
I present a way of looking at the world here. That way or idea is
not something that can be proven. But some of the fruits it might
grow into might be considered for becoming part of existing systems
of thought.
In that sense, this site is maybe for future readers only, not
conceivable by contemporary visitors.
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zuerich, Switzerland) and am doing this
as my hobby. :)
Alain Stalder
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Welcome
way
- space and time
- metamorphosis
- greek philosophy
- i ching
evolutions
- mixed feelings
- elemental cycles
- odyssey
References
Archive
Links
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After defining elements from immediate perception of the world,
inspired by Kant and Schopenhauer, I relate these elements to
physics, the ancient Greek elements, and to the trigrams of the
Chinese I Ching.
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space and time
Imagine that you have just now started to look at the world.
[image (see web site)]
One of the first things that you notice is space. There is you and
an outside world that you can see, and you can see more than one
thing. What separates you and what you can see, and what separates
the different things that you see, is space in its most immediate
definition.
Then you also quickly notice that some things move and others do
not. This is time, again in its most immediate definition, as motion
or being at rest.
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Things can rest or move outside and inside the mind. Thus there are
a priori 4 different kinds of things: What moves outside, what rests
outside, what moves inside, and what rests inside. Let me call them
elements and give them the following names: _emo_, _ero_, _emi_ and
_eri_.
*emo* *m*oves *o*utside
*ero* *r*ests *o*utside
*emi* *m*oves *i*nside
*eri* *r*ests *i*nside
leads
Some literature quotes, ideas and different points of view.
* Immanuel Kant. _The Critique of Pure Reason_. 1787.
In the early chapters, Kant discloses that some observable things
cannot be isolated from the self, but instead appear to be
themselves a priori necessary for thinking and observation. These
a priori concepts include space and time in their immediate sense
- the structure in which things appear in the mind and seem to
exist outside of it.
* "By means of the external sense (a property of the mind), we
represent to ourselves objects as without us, and these all in
space. Herein alone are their shape, dimensions, and relations to
each other determined or determinable. [...] Space is not a
conception which has been derived from outward experiences. For,
in order that certain sensations may relate to something without
me (that is, to something which occupies a different part of space
from that in which I am); in like manner, in order that I may
represent them not merely as without, of, and near to each other,
but also in separate places, the representation of space must
already exist as a foundation. [...] We never can imagine or make
a representation to ourselves of the non-existence of space,
though we may easily enough think that no objects are found in
it." (translated by J. Meiklejohn)
* "Time is not an empirical conception. For neither coexistence nor
succession would be perceived by us, if the representation of time
did not exist as a foundation a priori. [...] With regard to
phenomena in general, we cannot think away time from them, and
represent them to ourselves as out of and unconnected with time,
but we can quite well represent to ourselves time void of
phenomena."
If I can imagine something, is it then really inside of me ? Isn't
there already a separation (space) between me and what I imagine ?
Such an extreme definition of _self_ or _inside_ would mean that
the self cannot have any (consciously accessible) attributes, no
memory etc., because any such attribute of the self would be
something that can be considered by the self and would thus, by
definition, not be part of the self...
This definition of _self_ reminds of the _Tao_ (way) in Taoism.
Lao Tzu starts the Tao Te Ching with "The Tao that can be spoken,
is not the real (unchanging) Tao".
* Would a female observer also consider what is seen as not being
part of herself or would she rather tend to identify with what she
sees ? In other words, is the distinction between in and out hard
or soft (gradual) ?
* What about sleep and dreaming, why only have a fully conscious
observer ?
metamorphosis
The next thing that one notices is that what moves can come to rest
and what rests can start to move. Also, it is possible to visualize
something that one has seen outside, like a tree or a spoon, later
on in the mind. In other words, the elements can transform into each
other.
What causes these changes ? Whatever it is, it must be something
fundamental, like the four elements. So let me simply call it the
fifth element, _e5_.
Free will seems to be a part of e5. It is possible to lift a spoon
and then to throw it away, i.e. to get something outside that rests
into motion (ero->emo). However, free will cannot be identical to
e5, as some things are much harder to control (try lifting a tree)
and things transform all the time without conscious influence.
Freedom inside the mind seems larger than outside. It is much easier
to lift a tree in the mind, than a real tree. But let me tackle
things from a different angle: Outside on average more things rest
than move, while inside the mind, things are almost always more
flowing.
For example, a tree is at rest in most situations, except for a
little movement of leaves and maybe branches. But if you close your
eyes and try to imagine a tree at rest, it will get very hard after
a few seconds not to deviate to other thoughts and to keep the tree
at rest.
In conclusion, on average outside activity is needed to get things
moving, while inside activity is needed to keep things at rest. More
abstractly, emo and eri are thus active, ero and emi are passive.
Also, what is outside resists motion on average more than what is
inside. So emo and ero are hard (out), emi and eri are soft (in).
*emo* moves outside active hard
*ero* rests outside passive hard
*emi* moves inside passive soft
*eri* rests inside active soft
*e5* transforms the above elements
leads
* If free will is a part of e5, what is the rest ? Cause and effect,
fate, destiny, the free will of others ? Quantum mechanics has
relativized the first assumption somewhat, or maybe not.
* What property of the issue of free will or not leads to millions
of variations when thinking about it ? Could it possibly even be
literally the effect of many "transformations" in the mind,
whatever that may mean precisely ?
* Freedom to lift a spoon does not automatically mean freedom of
choice whether to want to lift the spoon or not.
* When I say that outside more things rest than move, I mean this in
a very specific sense: Relative macroscopic motion at time scales
that human beings can register.
At long time scales, all things move; microscopically everything
is in motion, as heat is nothing but random motion of atoms or
molecules. When I turn my head, all objects move, but relative
motion between them remains small.
* The present approach to nature is consequently centered on the
human perspective, on direct experience of nature. Modern science
usually differs from that by trying to pick a point of view from
which a problems is easy to describe.
The oldest example for this is astronomy that has been greatly
simplified by solar centered calculations instead of using many
arbitrary epicycles in geocentric calculations.
* Modern science is a very valuable companion for the present
approach, especially for helping to exclude naive mistakes.
* Can my observations about motion, activity and hardness outside
and inside be formalized and thus proven ? How would such a
mathematical representation look like ? What assumptions would it
be based on ?
In any closed system, _entropy_, roughly a measure of disorder,
can at best remain constant, but usually it increases. With time,
macroscopic directed motion and structures decay into microscopic
random motion, which is, by definition, heat. Life manages to
escape this fate by operating in _open_ systems, by exporting
disorder into the environment. That way, living beings can grow
from microscopic seeds to complex structures and animals can
repeatedly create directed motion.
Since science considers the outside world to be mainly inanimate
and the mind to be located in a piece of organic matter, the
brain, it predicts that outside motion tends to disappear, while
inside the conscious mind has a hard time to focus on something,
because lots of mostly unconscious activity in the brain keeps
stirring things up.
Science is thus essentially compatible with the considerations
presented so far, except for science's qualitative notion that
creating motion inside the mind is active, requires energy, like
outside. This might, however, simply be due to the viewpoint of
science, which only considers facts in the outer, material world
and might thus not be able to describe inner processes as
experienced from the inside...
greek philosophy
Aristotle defines elements to be composed of properties that can be
felt by touching. He uses two pairs of opposites, hot-cold and
wet-dry, to define four elements, which he names _fire_, _earth_,
_water_ and _air_. And he identifies wet-dry with soft-hard,
viscous-brittle and smooth-rough. Unlike later the Stoics, he does
not consistently identify hot-cold with active-passive and
light-heavy. If you do, you get:
*fire* hot (active) dry (hard) *emo*
*earth* cold (passive) dry (hard) *ero*
*water* cold (passive) wet (soft) *emi*
*air* hot (active) wet (soft) *eri*
As you can see, this yields a one-to-one correspondence to my
previous definition of the elements.
The fifth element (ether, quintessence) is usually associated with
transformation and is often considered to be detached from the more
profane, touchable first four elements, to be rather "divine" or to
only exist in space.
leads
* Aristotle. _On Generation and Corruption_. Around 350 BC.
* "Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of
perceptible body; and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to
'tangible', and 'tangible' is that of which the perception is
touch; it is clear that not all the contrarieties constitute
'forms' and 'originative sources' of body, but only those which
correspond to touch." (Book II, translated by H. Joachim)
* "From moist and dry are derived (iii) the fine and coarse, viscous
and brittle, hard and soft, and the remaining tangible
differences. For (a) since the moist has no determinate shape, but
is readily adaptable and follows the outline of that which is in
contact with it, it is characteristic of it to be 'such as to fill
up'. Now 'the fine' is 'such as to fill up'. For 'the fine'
consists of subtle particles; but that which consists of small
particles is 'such as to fill up', inasmuch as it is in contact
whole with whole-and 'the fine' exhibits this character in a
superlative degree. Hence it is evident that the fine derives from
the moist, while the coarse derives from the dry. Again (b) 'the
viscous' derives from the moist: for 'the viscous' (e.g. oil) is a
'moist' modified in a certain way. 'The brittle', on the other
hand, derives from the dry: for 'brittle' is that which is
completely dry-so completely, that its solidification has actually
been due to failure of moisture. Further (c) 'the soft' derives
from the moist. For 'soft' is that which yields to pressure by
retiring into itself, though it does not yield by total
displacement as the moist does-which explains why the moist is not
'soft', although 'the soft' derives from the moist. 'The hard', on
the other hand, derives from the dry: for 'hard' is that which is
solidified, and the solidified is dry."
* "The elementary qualities are four [...]. Hence it is evident that
the 'couplings' of the elementary qualities will be four: hot with
dry and moist with hot, and again cold with dry and cold with
moist. [...] Fire is hot and dry, whereas Air is hot and moist
(Air being a sort of aqueous vapour); and Water is cold and moist,
while Earth is cold and dry."
* Aristotle arranges the elements in a cycle fire-air-water-earth:
"Thus (i) the process of conversion will be quick between those
which have interchangeable 'complementary factors', but slow
between those which have none. The reason is that it is easier for
a single thing to change than for many. Air, e.g. will result from
Fire if a single quality changes: for Fire, as we saw, is hot and
dry while Air is hot and moist, so that there will be Air if the
dry be overcome by the moist. Again, Water will result from Air if
the hot be overcome by the cold: for Air, as we saw, is hot and
moist while Water is cold and moist, so that, if the hot changes,
there will be Water. So too, in the same manner, Earth will result
from Water and Fire from Earth, since the two 'elements' in both
these couples have interchangeable 'complementary factors'. For
Water is moist and cold while Earth is cold and dry-so that, if
the moist be overcome, there will be Earth: and again, since Fire
is dry and hot while Earth is cold and dry, Fire will result from
Earth if the cold pass-away."
* Heraclitus seems to have suggested the same cycle earlier on: "The
death of fire is the birth of air, and the death of air is the
birth of water;'" (fragment DK B76).
* The views of the Stoics seem to have prevailed since Hellenistic
times, including in medieval alchemy and up to contemporary
astrology, where fire and air signs are seen as male and active,
and the other two as female and passive.
David Sedley writes in chapter 11 of _The Cambridge History of
Hellenistic Philosophy_ (Cambridge University Press, 2000) that
the Stoic's identification of hot-cold with active-passive emerged
from medical tradition, from _pneuma_, breath, which was seen as a
mixture of fire and air.
The identification of hot-cold with active-passive was apparently
not so clearly the only view of the Stoics in their time; see
above source for more historical details.
* In _On Generation and Corruption_, Aristotle considers light-heavy
not to be an attribute of any specific elements:
"(i) heavy and light are neither active nor susceptible. Things
are not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon, or
suffer action from, other things. But the 'elements' must be
reciprocally active and susceptible, since they 'combine' and are
transformed into one another. On the other hand (ii) hot and cold,
and dry and moist, are terms, of which the first pair implies
power to act and the second pair susceptibility."
But in _On the Heavens_, he considers air and fire as light and
water and earth as heavy, in the order earth-water-air-fire, and
postulates the existence of an immutable fifth element that
dominates in the sky, is neither light nor heavy and moves in
circles, while the first four elements move linearly:
"[...] all locomotion, as we term it, is either straight or
circular or a combination of these two, which are the only simple
movements. [...] Now revolution about the centre is circular
motion, while the upward and downward movements are in a straight
line, 'upward' meaning motion away from the centre, and 'downward'
motion towards it. [...] For if the natural motion is upward, it
will be fire or air, and if downward, water or earth. [...]
circular motion is necessarily primary. For the perfect is
naturally prior to the imperfect, and the circle is a perfect
thing. [...] These premises clearly give the conclusion that there
is in nature some bodily substance other than the formations we
know, prior to them all and more divine than they. [...] there is
something beyond the bodies that are about us on this earth,
different and separate from them; and that the superior glory of
its nature is proportionate to its distance from this world of
ours. [...] things are heavy and light relatively to one another;
air, for instance, is light relatively to water, and water light
relatively to earth. The body, then, which moves in a circle
cannot possibly possess either heaviness or lightness. For neither
naturally nor unnaturally can it move either towards or away from
the centre. [...] this body will be ungenerated and indestructible
and exempt from increase and alteration [\ldots] earth is enclosed
by water, water by air, air by fire, and these similarly by the
upper bodies'' (Book I, translated by J. Stocks)
Aristotle appears to consistently link hot/cold to active and
wet/dry to passive, see quote from _On Generation and Corruption_
above, or the following quote from _Meteorology_:
"All this makes it clear that bodies are formed by heat and cold
and that these agents operate by thickening and solidifying. It is
because these qualities fashion bodies that we find heat in all of
them, and in some cold in so far as heat is absent. These
qualities, then, are present as active, and the moist and the dry
as passive, and consequently all four are found in mixed bodies."
(Book IV, translated by E. Webster)
i ching
India and China also know five elements. But let me instead consider
the 8 trigrams of the Chinese Book of Changes, the _I Ching_.
III heaven, strong, creative, father
::: earth, devoted/yielding, receptive, mother
::I thunder, inciting movement, arousing, 1st son
:I: water, dangerous, abysmal, 2nd son
I:: mountain, resting, keeping still, 3rd son
II: wind/wood, penetrating, gentle, 1st daughter
I:I fire, light-giving, clinging, 2nd daughter
:II lake, joyful, joyous, 3rd daughter
Seems they resemble the Greek elements in pairs, namely heaven-wind
(air), earth-mountain, fire-thunder and water-lake. Let me rearrange
them into another table:
III heaven *air* rests male
II: wind/wood *air* moves female
I:: mountain *earth* rests male
::: earth *earth* moves female
I:I fire *fire* rests female
::I thunder *fire* moves male
:II lake *water* rests female
:I: water *water* moves male
Interestingly, if one selects the trigrams that correspond to the
Greek elements, i.e. resting air and earth, moving fire and water,
this selects exactly the male trigrams.
leads
* The I Ching is a divination system. By tossing coins or drawing
yarrow sticks, one determines hexagrams (two trigrams) that are
given meanings in the text of the I Ching.
* It appears that the fifth element is somehow contained in the
duality of the trigrams. Can it be made more specific in which way
exactly ?
A useful hint might be the following quote from the introduction
of _I Ching or Book of Changes_. Richard Wilhelm. English by Cary
F. Baynes. Penguin Books. 2003.
"The eight trigrams are symbols standing for changing transitional
states; they are images that are constantly undergoing change.
Attention centers not on things in their state of being - as is
chiefly the case in the Occident - but upon their movements in
change. The eight trigrams therefore are not representations of
things as such but of their tendencies in movement."
* How about putting the four elements into a circle in which they
transform into each other ? That would give 8 different
transitions (4 forward, 4 backward).
evolutions
Some ways in which the idea presented earlier might evolve with
time, or maybe not...
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mixed feelings
The inner elements eri and emi are softer than the outer ones, which
suggests that they would mix more easily.
The idea is now that what appears outside as individual and separate
beings is unconsciously connected and that these connections result
in feelings that change for often not obvious reasons (emi), while
naming inner concepts allows to impose some abstract calm (eri).
Two cultural associations come to mind. The astrological association
of feelings and the unconscious with the element water and of
language, logic and communication with the element air. The idea of
a collective unconscious itself is Jungian, while it may in the end
still be so that such collective connections are just illusions
created by a more Freudian individual unconscious.
Let me use the Jungian picture, since phenomenologically it would be
very hard to distinguish from the Freudian one and things are
simpler to explain in the Jungian picture.
How one feels at any moment would be a mixture of individual and
collective influences. Not that what other people think would be
directly accessible, just indirectly with regard to how one feels in
a particular situation, or how one feels regarding individual
possible next steps.
Individuals that are emotionally and physically close would likely
have the strongest influence on a person, but also large groups of
people, say same village, country, religion, etc., could together
have a strong influence.
Influences from a collective unconscious could go well beyond the
sum of what is in individual conscious minds. Since the collective
unconscious would effectively be a very large brain, consisting of
many more brain cells than any individual being, it might have a
much more complex and sophisticated mind than any conscious
individual and it would know all kinds of details about everybody.
Such a picture of a collective unconscious would resemble the
concept of god or gods in many religions, and it would likely be
fragmented into smaller units at several scales, like families,
countries, religions, etc., each with its own collective feelings,
plans, and so on.
Jung noticed that in dreams and in cultural creations some
archetypal patterns repeat. These archetypes might simply be part of
the thoughts and experiences and knowledge of the collective
unconscious.
Precognition in dreams or art might simply be picking up collective
intentions that are only later realized and can be felt and dreamed
about already while the collective unconscious is only planning or
considering them.
How would the collective unconscious effectively direct the
individuals it consists of ? Telling each and every one what to do
at each moment would likely not be possible, just like the conscious
individual mind would not be able to tell each of its nerve cells
when to fire.
But maybe with a general concept like astrology, which creates a
balanced and relatively complete set of individuals, each with its
own approach to new problems: Faced with a particular problem, a Leo
would feel more like solving it the Leo way (by collective
feedback), so that in any situation typically different approaches
would be tried and the most suitable one would succeed. That way
typically the best approach would relatively quickly be found
without focused intervention by the collective unconscious.
Moreover, what star signs like to do is often adapted to typical
actions during the respective part of the year, like harvesting and
sorting it in for Virgo, for example.
Assuming the collective unconscious extends to any living beings
(and maybe even matter considered inanimate), oracles like the I
Ching or Tarot could really reveal some intentions of the collective
unconscious, maybe paired with emotional feedback about which parts
of the response to focus on or how to interpret it.
leads
* See odyssey, I have written a lot more on this idea in my life
than it may superficially appear, starting with 'A few new
discoveries in physics', which I published in June 2002.
elemental cycles
How Aristotle's cycle of the elements might grow naturally from the
ideas presented previously, at least as one of just very few simple
possibilities.
The four elements can in principle interface in six ways: emo-ero,
emi-eri, emo-emi, ero-eri, emo-eri, emi-ero.
Transitions at the first two interfaces, emo-ero and emi-eri, are
clearly possible in both directions, since things start to move and
come to rest both inside and outside.
The situation at the remaining four interfaces is more difficult to
estimate, because they all cross the boundary between in and out.
Since the outside world has an effect on the inner world, and
vice-versa, in and out are obviously connected, but a priori not all
8 possible transitions at these 4 interfaces in-out would be
necessary.
Let me take a step back and reconsider the interfaces emo-ero and
emi-eri. Take emo-ero. The interface between these two elements must
be unobservable, because otherwise it would be something that is
observed in the outside world, hence it would be one of these two
elements. The analog argument can be made for the interface emi-eri.
For the same reason, the boundary in-out must be unobservable, too,
so that one might imagine it to be a thin membrane. Imagine, say, a
blob of ero at the boundary to inside and move the boundary just a
little bit into ero. A slice of ero will end up inside and, if it
remains passive, will start to flow, becoming emi.
Similarly, emi->ero, emo->eri, eri->emo, but no transitions emo-emi
or ero-eri. Under these assumptions, one would thus arrive at
Aristotle's circle of transformations emo-eri-emi-ero-emo or
fire-air-water-earth-fire.
Obviously this set of assumptions is not the only possible one, but
likely one of the simplest.
Next is something that would apparently be too amazing to be true
both to astrologers and to everybody else, namely a simple model of
the star signs of the zodiac in which each star sign is a stage in a
transition between elements within Aristotle's circle.
*element* *transition* *image*
fire earth-fire-air fire
air fire-air-water cloud
water earth-water-air river
earth fire-earth-water tree
For the fire signs, Aries-Leo-Sagittarius, the transition is from
earth via fire to air:
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| ,,,. |j | ; , ..'
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[Aries] [Leo] [Sagittarius]
The archetypal image is simply a burning fire that transforms wood
(earth) to smoke (air). More precisely, Aries is a young fire, made
mainly of earth, with not much fire, yet, and almost no air, yet.
Sagittarius, in turn, is an old fire, consisting mainly of air, with
not much fire remaining and almost no earth left. Leo is in between,
a fire at its peak, with a lot of fire, and less but mutually about
equal amounts of earth and air.
The wound of the fisher king, for example, is a central theme in the
story of Parsifal and thus for Leo. (If you are not aware of such
common associations in so-called psychological astrology, see e.g.
Liz Greene's _Star Signs for Lovers_ and _The Astrology of Fate_).
Young Parsifal first fails to ask the right question and only after
much work manages to heal the king and take his place.
In my model, the wound of the fisher king is simply the human body
(earth) that is wounded by the fire of life, as any human body must
die one day. Only what is learned in life, can be formulated in
words (air) and can thus be passed on to later generations, thus
becomes immortal in a way. So there is a transformation from mortal
body to immortal soul, or animal-man/king-god.
For the air signs, Gemini-Libra-Aquarius, the transition is from
fire via air to water:
.. *air*
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.: . ....i. .= . .`, .o. \ ` , J
.^ .# 4C G?b?@` ?. ..Y! O .! 1
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[Gemini] [Libra] [Aquarius]
The archetypal image is a cloud (air) which emits both lightning
(fire) and rain (water): Gemini is a young thunderstorm, with lots
of lightning and thunder, but little rain, yet. Aquarius is an old
thunderstorm, with essentially only rain left. Libra is in between.
Libra's dilemma of choice is an abstract one: There is no earth
involved in the above model. So Paris was neither attracted by
Hera's offer of great literal possessions nor by Athene's offer to
make him a great warrior, but chose Aphrodite's promise of the love
of Helena. Since Libra is in the middle of a transition
fire-air-water, the choice is usually the latter, water, thus
emotions, love.
There is a strive for clarity in the air signs. Gemini is like a
child in its quick and random motion, like flames or lightning
(fire), by which the child learns to understand the world by looking
at everything from all possible angles. Take a coin for example.
What the eye literally sees (fire) is just different images, front
face, back face, side view. Only if you combine these images
mentally in your head (air), does an entity "coin" come to be.
For the water signs, Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces, the transition is from
earth via water to air:
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The archetypal image is a river: Cancer is a source and young river
emerging from the mountains, maybe from a glacier (earth), and has
not merged with much other waters. As the water flows down, it
merges with more and more rivers and becomes a stream: Scorpio.
Finally, Pisces is the sea, into which practically all rivers flow
and from which the water eventually evaporates again (air).
So, the transition is, like for the fire signs, from earth to air,
but this time caused by a passive, female element. The river that
flows down to the sea is more fated than fire, since it is passive,
it cannot resist the movement.
Protection is a strong need for Cancer, but since there is a
transition to water, also the fight for independence from its roots
(earth) is an important theme. Hera ordered a crab to bite Hercules
into his ankle while he was fighting the Hydra in the swamps. Both
the crab, who got his place as a constellation for his obedience to
Hera, and Hercules ("glory of Hera") are part of the theme, as is
also the Hydra and the swamps.
For the earth signs, Taurus-Virgo-Capricorn, the transition is from
fire via earth to water:
.
.! `!.. . t.\ ,`?!`?,
. JJm: .u., ! !` .?!, `^` 1 .. .
.= .J,,?" : C.W8P`....`, ..!%,,.WJ! O
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??....., `?yj;2?! .C`v
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.?...` .!..^ ! .+`'.?1`.i!.. ..7=?f!:,5r7Tl?...
```?`?` `'` . " . . .` ?1 !.. ?.
. *water*
[Taurus] [Virgo] [Capricorn]
The archetypal image is a tree: Taurus is mainly made of fire,
focusses on the directly visible, but short-lived beauties of the
tree, the leaves and flowers that grow with the power of the sun
(fire). Capricorn is mainly made of water, restrains himself to the
parts of the tree that persist across seasons and which keep it from
falling down, namely trunk and roots, which feed it with water and
the substances diluted in it. Virgo is in between, not sure which to
chose: Beauty or structure ?
This solves the riddle that even though Virgo is often depicted as
being very concerned about order, many Virgos do not keep their
lives and homes in strict order. It is Virgo for whom order is an
issue, for Capricorn it is a given and for Taurus it is not that
important, except a bit, as Taurus is transforming from fire to
earth.
Associated with beauty-order is also living vs. planning. Taurus
enjoys the moment, but plans little, while Capricorn often keeps
both an eye on the present and on possible future paths. Virgo is
again in between.
The abduction of Persephone by Hades fits the model very well:
Persephone is collecting flowers, looking at the sunny (fire) side
of life, but she is already starting to look down to earth, probably
at least unconsciously starting to wonder about how things work,
what makes the flowers grow, etc. The ground opens up and Hades
abducts her and makes her his wife, the queen of the underworld.
In the model, the transition for each element starts with a dry
element (earth or fire) and ends with a wet one (air or water). This
can be associated with the older age of star signs later in the
zodiac. To Aries, for example, a tree is often just a tree, just
what the eye can see (fire). To Sagittarius, in contrast, a tree is
often "Maya", just an illusion (air). It is probably an experience
of life that not everything is what it appears to be at first.
There is always one element missing in each transition. Thus, while
Libra lacks realism in judgement, Leo lacks compassion, Scorpio
imagination and Virgo reason.
A good way to try to prove such a model formally would maybe be to
start with writing down associative maps, maybe starting with common
associations with the elements, like these:
*fire* energy of life, light, sun,
vision, imagination, creativity
*air* mind, logic, spirit, abstraction,
rationality, consciousness
*water* feelings, love, beauty, fate,
collective, unconscious, river
*earth* physical reality, body, land,
mother nature, tree
And then you would continue from there, synthesize and match more
complex themes, not manually as in the examples above, but using
computer software somewhat similar to what internet search engines
use.
Of course, that would only prove that the model matches common
themes associated with star signs, not that astrology has anything
to do with reality, but such a result would certainly make people
wonder if there is more to it.
Beyond that, maybe some day it might be possible to synthesize most
properties of the star signs formally from the transition between
the elements.
Libra, for example, learns from observation of motion outside (fire)
and inside (water). Since Libra's transition is towards water, the
gift of "inner vision" is given to Teiresias by Zeus and outer
vision is reduced by Hera, except for observing omens, which are
arguably just outer reflections of collective inner intentions.
leads
* See odyssey, I have written a lot more on astrology in my life
than it may superficially appear, starting with 'A few new
discoveries in physics', which I published in June 2002.
odyssey
For more by me, see archive for older and often richer versions of
this site, and more (and maybe even dive into my usenet odyssey for
much more), or visit my google profile under links for short bio,
photos, visual art, and more.
See references and links for related publications by others.
Finally, make your own ideas, say, by combining your pet theories
with what you found here!
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References
* Andreas Schoeter. _Bipolar Change_. Journal of Chinese Philosophy.
Volume 35, Issue 2, p. 297-317 (June 2008).
*Abstract* I reconsider the natural characterization of change and
non-change that arises from the algebraic approach: this sees
change as yang in contrast to nonchange, which is yin. Following a
persuasive example from Alain Stalder, rather than consider change
solely in contrast to non-change, I develop a formal
characterization of different forms of change considered relative
to each other. This extension allows the internal structure of a
change to be made explicit in a new way, bifurcating the change
into yang parts and yin parts. I call this extended definition of
change bipolar change.
*Links* [Preprint] [Publication]
http://www.yijing.co.uk/downloads/BipolarChange.pdf
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119878305/abstract
Archive
* webnow.zip
* web2010.zip
* web2009.zip
* web2008.zip
* web2007.zip
* web2006.zip
* web2005.zip
* odyssey.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/webnow.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2010.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2009.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2008.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2007.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2006.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/web2005.zip
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/odyssey.zip
=> http://alainstalder.ch/machi.zip
Links
* Yi Jing Algebra
Mathematical approaches to the I Ching, by Andreas Schoeter.
http://www.yijing.co.uk/
* Greek Elements
Detailed article by John Opsopaus; from ancient Greece to Jung.
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/AGEDE/
* My Google Profile
Short biography, photos, visual art, software, and more...
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/archive.html
architecture
_Everything rests by changing. - Heraclitus_
I try to let my site evolve a bit like a zen garden in Kyoto.
[image]
The web server is a very small embedded Linux machine, called
Foxboard from Acme Systems (no joke!), located in my place in my
home town Adliswil, near Zuerich in Switzerland, where I also
wrote all contents of this site.
Copyright (C) 2002 - now by Alain Stalder. All Rights Reserved.
Made in Switzerland.
Second Postscript 8 August 2010:
I have "signed up" on Facebook today and so could see a few
more details. Different city (at least husband), also one of
Artemis' cities, one that what mentioned in the first post,
should be ovious which one. Looks from the "Relationship's
Status" at least superficially not like the marriage is as
happy as I assumed. But let me quote something I wrote about
2 3/4 years ago here at alt.astrology.tropical, 17 Nov 2007:
: Last weekend, maybe a bit overemphasized by the
: new moon in Scorpio, and Lilith there, I imagined what
: would happen if I just cut the emotional connection that
: I feel between me and her. I had previously chosen to
: let go of the connection, but then it had always been in
: effect just ignoring it, which lead to tensions that
: would only resolve once I realized that the connection
: still existed. So, really cutting the connection would be
: different. The feeling I had last weekend was that if I cut,
: then I would bleed to death and not much later, things on
: her side would perish, too, it appears rather from a lack
: of blood. Very strange to me, since so far I had assumed
: that it was rather her who was hanging on, but that I in
: principle would be able to cut the connection without too
: much trouble if really needed to do so. But that seems
: not to be the case.
:
: In my feeling, she is in many respects like a traumatized
: person, only able to consciously look at parts of reality.
I do feel that in the time since then the connection has broken
many times, sometimes from my side, but maybe even more often
from hers, or maybe just from general unconscious chaos in the
world, although not so much in Switzerland and the people I know.
(Not like people have no worries and problems here, but it is
really almost always much tamer than anywhere else, so close to
the "navel", I guess, any storm is just a little breeze).
About 12 years ago or so, my parents still had a cat, a very
gentle and nice cat, but also very shy and a bit traumatized
from being in a home for cats at early life. Once we tried to
take her to my appartment when my parents went on holidays,
assuming she would be fine there, because I was likely the
person she was least afraid of. But it did not work, she would
only hide below her bed, and after less than a day I simply took
her back to my parents appartment and would visit in the morning
and in the evening. That worked fine, she was a bit lonely, of
course, but fine.
So, this makes this a very subtle situation, which can probably
only be mended very gently again, but this time I want at least
to find a way in which I either become a tangible part of this,
or if that is not possible get some more freedom on my side.
However, should it come to a matter of life and death, maybe I
will just react like I reacted with Mimi the cat, i.e. give in,
but no - not this time I am afraid, not with Pluto in Capricorn,
I guess. I will have to see if "wei chi", gentle steps by the
Chinese fox of me across the thin ice will do, maybe in terms of
Saturn in Libra gently signalling some opportunities? The slow
and careful approach also has the advantage of preventing the
previous mishaps when either side made a sudden, unexpected move.
The story of me and her until she came forward and wanted me to
kiss her and how her facebook images evolved from two masks, to
side view, to face on, remind a bit of a lion, or maybe the arc
of her hair still fits the n.node in Gemini as in my original
idea of her birth time (in my "conversations" she said that 10
AM was the time on her birth certificate, but that she thought
that it was rather 10:15 AM, i.e. n.node in 12th, not 1st).
So, at least I am relieved that the situation has become a bit
more transparent and open and so has some more opportunity to
be mended. I do think that not unlikely all the back and forth
and my health issues have come from this sun-moon or Artemis-
Apollon connection. To me Switzerland is more related to Leo,
to Apollon, very stable, but the creations of the wilder sister
who goes hunting in nature are very poetic, but also very, very
fragile, that is why the blue Chrysamthemum dies so early. Sun
and moon need each other, without the sun, the moon would not
shine, and without the moon, the sun would lose its largest
projection surface in the sky (photographic films are based on
silver ions, i.e. two references to the moon (silver, Io cow).
I can help, and will certainly try my best and I still love her
and can feel her, so I will offer opportunities, a set of paths
to some hopefully more balanced arrangements, provided I get at
least a somewhat better deal this time than in the past 20 years.
What would you do? You cannot tell the Melusine what you know
directly, it would destroy all, you have to provide her a path
on a soft surface on which her bleeding feet do not hurt too
much. (Like all sophisticated adult women, she probably thinks
that she can see and handle it all, but women - allow me to be
so blunt with the sun in Leo - are by nature gifted with a larger
unconscious than men, so they do not have a chance in such cases,
they need a man; and vice-versa a man cannot solve all problems
without emotional feedback, and also that had been very much
lacking by women lately, not blaming any side, but it is not so
complicated, love is easy by nature, it is just human beings that
make it more complicated than it has to be, some complications
are certainly fun, but when people actually start to perish, to
most people involved, even if only marginally, the fun ends.
Anyway, at least some light ahead, finally some things that I
can do and do not looked doomed from the start...
(Sure this may all still be happening in my "12th house shell",
but at some point I have to go with what I feel, and the love
connection I have with her is the most real thing that I ever
had in my life, and it would be so easy, all the rest can be
arranged in all kinds of ways and I also do not feel like her
environment would care all that much, so wei-chi might actually
still mean that "Katelbach" (or Godot if you do not know who
that Katelbach is) would come... Anyway, thanks for reading who
ever might have stubled on this, I am sure you could help, even
if you read this much later in the past, for this kind of story
this does in my experience not matter all that much, although
it still does. So thanks again! Keeping my fingers crossed.
)o+
User-Agent: crond/smtpclient (Foxboard LX832)
Organisation: exactphilosophy.net
X-Face: 3ncp/lXFf[,/?FZKwJRDzqL>W/Q^<.lk/#8>Se.eo;|io9<a*~rYH+WbvlpX-;c3q@Q\d?g
gl#s'kBOc(4FN>gQ7A*0}!"k_$vV!B]Bx
[originally written in early August 2010]
"The oddest thing of all, the thing that most strikes us when we
embark on a story is the total void spreading out before us. The
events have occurred and lie all around us in a continuous, form-
less mass without beginning or end. We can start anywhere..."
-- Vera Linhartova (as quoted in "Bringing up Girls in Bohemia")
This post is about my life and fate with or "with" Pavlina; a Czech
girl I fell in love with in the spring of 1982 and who has almost
all planets in her birth chart arranged in a Mystic Rectangle in
the signs Pisces, Virgo, Taurus and Scorpio.
The ambivalence and "mystic" side of this is already evident from
the use of 'with or "with"' above, and it certainly has also quite
a bit to do with that Mystic Rectangle, as I hope to expose. There
are both good reasons for 'with' and '"with"' in what I am going
to tell and in the end it may remain a matter of taste on the side
of the reader (or maybe on the birth chart of the reader), whether
to go rather with 'with' or with '"with"'.
Here is the birth data:
Alain (me): 1966-08-07 04:12 Zurich, Switzerland
Pavlina: 1965-03-05 12:00? Ostrava?, Czechoslovakia
Her birth date is from a public source, the yearbook of a school
in Winterthur, Switzerland she went to between about 1983 and 1986;
birth time and place are guesses, more on them later.
Her Mystic Rectangle involves all planets except the moon. They
are all in female signs:
Pisces: Venus(5*10), Saturn(8*27), Sun(14*41), Mercury(23*05)
Virgo: Uranus(12*42), Pluto(15*03), Mars(20*20)
Taurus: Jupiter(20*41)
Scorpio: Neptune(19*57)
Not all are technically part of the rectangle; in total there is
an excess of oppositions, which make this Mystic Rectangle probably
more difficult to handle than it usually is. Using orbs of 10* for
trines, oppositions and conjunctions and 6* for sextiles, the total
numbers for each aspect are:
Oppositions: 10
Conjunctions: 6
Trines: 5
Sextiles: 3
The sun has three oppositions, with Pluto (very close orb) and with
Uranus and Mars - I imagine not a very cheerful experience in the
first moment of life, to have the sun (self/life) faced with these
three. Uranus sees also three oppositions, Pluto four.
She works or worked as a stage designer in Prague, and as part of
that - according to the dissertation of Gwendolyn Orel - she once
built a device that served both as a door and a bed in a play of
Kafka's "The Trial". Now, at first sight, a bed and a door do not
have much in common. But wait. They are both rectangles, so they
look like a Mystic Rectangle. A door can open or close the passage
between two rooms or even two worlds. The bed is metaphorically
also the gate between two worlds, like awake and asleep/dreaming,
and conception, birth and death often take place in a bed.
This brings me to the word "Prague". According to Wikipedia, the
word comes from "praga", which means "ford", in the case of Prague
across the Vlatva river. The Greek goddess Hecate was associated
with crossroads. She is a very old goddess, definitely older than
the generation of Zeus and I suspect even older than the known
ones before them. Together with Artemis (new moon), they protect
beginnings and ends, i.e. in the Zodiac foremost the spring point
around 30* Pisces resp. 0* Aries.
Libuse, the mythological foundress of Prague, was the daughter of
Niva ("lea"/"mead") a tree nymph, whose life was bound to an oak
tree - if the tree died, so would she. Her chosen husband Krok
would normally guard the tree, but once it was hit by lightning
and she died. (Actually she would not really die, just sleep a
deep sleep that is similar to the sleep of regular human beings.)
In the Celtic tree circle, the oak tree is the first day of spring.
She had three daughters, with various magic abilities. Her youngest
daughter, Libuse, was additionally gifted with great wisdom and
intelligence. She was settling disputes while sitting below a Linden
tree (the last 10 days of winter in the Celtic tree circle), but
people were not happy that a woman decided their fate and so she
prophesized where the people could find her husband and/or had her
white horse lead them to him. She married him and they founded
Prague. So far, this sounds quite a bit like the usual mythological
story around the transition between matriarchy and patriarchy.
But take a look at this image for magazine "La Plume" by Alphonse
Mucha, Czech Art Nouveau painter who was a long time in Paris:
http://www.sabian.org/oracle.htm
It shows the head of a beautiful young woman ("Libuse") inside a
zodiac wheel. But wait. If you look carefully, the wheel would be
14 signs wide. Technically that was just a trick for the painter
to show all 12 signs and still have room for the neck of the woman
between Pisces and Aries, from where it grows like the oak tree
at the beginning of spring. But here she grew the slot between
death and rebirth, the only time when the soul is truly free, and
not bound by a birth chart. In the "Sleeping Beauty" fairy tale,
the 13th fairy is angry because the king did not invite her. He
had only 12 plates with a golden rim, a symbol for the 12 solar
months of the year, while in terms of the shorter lunar months,
it would be closer to 13 months. Libuse again avoids the problem
very elegantly, by creating 14, not 12 or 13 signs.
Astrologically, this allows also to give rulership to each of the
7 traditional planets over 2 signs. So sun and moon get an extra
sign, as it appears in sort of a "black" variant, without being
really heavy and dark in the usual plutonic sense. You can see the
sun and the moon in the lower corners of the Mucha drawing above.
This creative poetry of the first moment in spring, and preserving
it eternally, is the secret of Libuse which becomes no less mystic
even if you know it in principle. Thomas Garrige Masaryk, the first
president of Czechoslovakia wrote:
"Politics, too, demand a balance between reason and feeling.
Even in the most delicate political situation we must notice
and plan carefully, what, how and on whom we can count; it has
to be as accurate as mathematics; our feelings must never err
in their observations and calculations. But the aim, the ideal,
is not laid down by reason alone, but by feeling also. The means
are dictated by reason; but we can change the situation to suit
our aim, we can introduce new elements into it, something of
our own. That is creation; that is the poetry of life."
-- http://homepage.mac.com/williamszone/dostal/chapter12/chapter12.html
But let me start telling the actual story. In 1982, I was too
shy to approach her directly. I am not sure how she experienced
things, but she did once write "I LOVE YOU ALAIN" on my pocket
calculator during a break, not sure how exactly it was meant.
I should maybe mention a few more astrological factors, just in
case the reader is too lazy to plot the charts based on the data
given earlier on. Her moon is at 8*45 Aries for the time given.
How I got to the time (earlier I favored a time of 10:15 AM, but
back to this summer night's dream), is based on Pedantus' method
of comparing images with birth chart, in this case between her
birth chart and three images she used on Facebook. Here is the
current one, as ascii art and so too blurred to recognize her:
[use fixed width font...]
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???;;;;::::::^^:^:^:.`^`^^^^.J+++J&&uwwQQQkkAAsAwXkwwzzzz==ltttrrvvXXH########HM###HMMMNNNNHHkkkWXXX
;;;::```^^`...^`.``.^`.``.`+1Zi&zjwZXMNM#HMM@MMMMMMMMMNmAwOzlltrrvXwMNMN######MM####NNNN########HH#H
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M0=1??wwrOv` .`++I .I. .?+?1zyl `rwXwO==zOXWbWH@mHVWy?XWkpWbSXuXR.`^^^^:::::;;;;???zM#=l=ll
@M#MMHkXkw+`. . `.cJ1z: JW+. ?;+1zO: .lwXZVtOzlwWbWW@HHWHVkwwWpkXXkXuW.^^^^^^^^:::;;;;;?+dNZ====
M##M@MKZyW0zl.`.`.1+I+zv! zW$``.++l=zOtz+`1zzOOrrrOOXWVWHHWqHHKzI+wXwIzwXXc^^^^^^:^:::::;;;;?zMK====
W#MHMMSuZWXwO: ``zzwOwZ1+.GdN+`?1wwQmx1=zz1z1zOQKVIwXSWMHWqHNWHZz++XXk+wXX$^^^^^^^::^::::;;;++XMI===
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uuuuuwAWqkl..OdWk.XHHXH3dNHMMMNMMMNMH&J;??;??zzwXCSMNNNNMMMHHHHHHmHkSwdWHHHH:^^:::^::::;;;?;????dMZ=
uwzzvvUHmH!``dX@MAWHHSQWMMMMMMMNMMNMNkuuuzuXvvwXR.j#NMMNMHHH#NHH@HHmHXNHHHHmI^:^:::::::;;;;?;???dMNz
mZwOtOwHWD.,?dHWM3?dodMMNMMMMNNN###NNNkXyZuuuuZyWmHMNMMMHHMMMMM@H@@@MM@MMMNHb:^:^:::::;;;;;??????WNZ
VWmylzXHWt.R?dWNK+QWNdNHMMHHNMMM#NMNMNMHpfyZyyZZXMNNMNNMMHHMM#HHH@@HMNMHMMMNN+::::::::;;;;?;;????dMR
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+:::`?dK7.+MMRdHMNHMMMNNNNNNN##N###MMMN#MNHWWWWHMMNMMMNN#######HMMMN#HHHHMMMMRz+;;;;;;;;;;;?;????=dH
.^^..JHr7`zdMMRWH#MNMMMNNNNNNN######MMMM#NMMMMMNM#MMNMNN####HH##MN###HHHH@MMM#rOz+?;;;;?;????????=zM
`^.. ,@\ .1jMNNNMMN#MMHMNNNNNNNN#M#MMMMMNNNN#####NMMMMN########MNNNNN#HH#MMMMNvrOzz=?????????????==U
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1++++XZ?!JHzXhJMMMMNNNNNMMH###NMMMNNNMNMMMMH#HH#NMMMMNNNN###MMNNNNMNMNH#HHHMMMNXvtllll===????+??!```
The rectangle of her face (and the door frame behind her, which is
not visible in the ascii art reduction) are what I would most likely
identify with her Mystic Rectangle. This would give two time frames
for her birth date, about 4 AM and about 12 noon.
Around 4 AM her AC is in Capricorn and her MC in Scorpio and her moon
would be below her chin. Around 12 noon, her AC is in Cancer, her MC
in Pisces, and her moon would be in her hair above her forehead. To me,
the second option fits better, for essentially two reasons, as follows.
The moon in Aries fits better with the wild hair to me than with the
chin. Her previous two Facebook images were very diverse in my view
and adapted to the time they were posted, in ways which would fit in
my feeling best with Pisces: The first image was the head of catwoman
wearing a joker mask, i.e. two masks on top of each other. The head
was in the lower left corner of the image, which was otherwise black.
The catwoman suit was black, the mask white. This is again something
special (Masaryk was a Pisces, too, by the way), two masks on top of
each other. I remember that the German teacher in the school I went
to with her in about 1982 discussed one of her compositions once, and
mentioned a world view in which all people are actors playing a role.
That fits quite well with Jupiter and Pisces. (But I should note that
for the 4 AM chart, Neptune in Scorpio is conjunct the MC too). The
teacher exposing this view in "public" relates it to the MC.
The image had likely been posted early this year, maybe in January or
February, and it reflects in my Jexler Java open source project that I
had very briefly started at that time, and other things in the world
around that time. The second image, that was first up maybe a month or
a bit longer ago, was her face seen from the side and it was probably
a more current photo than the most recent one above where she is facing
the camera. Reminded me a lot of the mentioned Mucha painting, which I
was considering in that timeframe, and other things that were sideways
("Egyptian") around that time.
In all images a rectangle with roughly the orientation of the last one,
i.e. a "door" standing up in the usual way, just slightly tilted to the
side, can be seen. In the first image (catwoman/joker), the rectangle
could also be tilted the other way.
My moon is an Aries, too, but later in Aries, at 17*17. So still loosely
conjunct with her moon, which might in my view and experience still be
very important, given that her moon is quite lonely in her birth chart,
not part of the Mystic Rectangle, with at most semi- or sesquisquares
to other planets (depending on the time of birth, of course).
My sun at 14*11 Leo is at a quincunx to her sun, which explains maybe
some more of the mystic fascination. If you follow quincunxes nominally
in the zodiac, you plot an image of a sun with 12 rays, symbolizing in
my view the long path it takes in order to understand the other side of
a quincunx, maybe a whole life (sun)...
The image of a sun reflects also in my two life planets (sun and moon)
in Leo (ruled by the sun) resp. Aries (sun exalted). The image fits
with Cherubim, and also many other Jewish things (Age of Aries), in
particular in combination with her moon also in Aries. Her last name
by marriage means "craw", and the last name of her mother was the
Yiddish word for a little bird (plus the usual "ova" appended to it).
Kafka is a jackdaw, i.e. roughly a craw, too. I remember that in one
of my two visits in Prague I was at the Jewish cemetery in which the
ground is several meters above ground, because Jewish religion does
not allow to dig up old dead bodies. There were high trees and high
above craws or raven were flying around.
These birds are the animals of Apollon and Artemis (sun and moon), and
the number 7 was sacred to them. So the zodiac of 14=7+7 signs in the
Mucha "La Plume" (the feather) drawing is in their realm, so to speak.
(7 is, of course, also related to Saturn, the 7th planet.)
Artemis, when a three year old child and sitting on Zeus' knees, was
asked by him what she wanted from life. She wanted eternal virginity,
as many names as her twin brother Apollon, a bow and arrow, lots of
ocean and river nymphs as companions - and a city.
Zeus gave her 30 cities, which I guess are Paris, London, New York,
Berlin, and more, but most importantly Prague, of course. Prague was
symbolically so important to her that the Czechs did not fight at
all when Hitler invaded, so Prague was not bombed. Libuse did still
symbolically show who rules the city when the German commander of
the city was killed by Czech resistance. Again the gain of doing that
was poetically symbolic. The German retaliation killed many more
Czechs, but if you were an entire city, would you consider that loss
worth to make the statement?
Many of my planets are part of a grand trine in water signs:
Cancer: Mars(17*58), Venus(19*47), Jupiter(20*19)
Scorpio: Neptune(19*24), n.node(21*12)
Pisces: Saturn(29*06), Cheiron(25*35)
Oh yes, I forgot to mention that Pavlina's n.node is in Gemini, at
18*48 Gemini, which is also very close to where the nodes are in
the birth chart of astrologer Liz Greene. See some of the things I
posted in the past about these relations, including the stories in
the past, including Isabel Hickey and maybe further back into past
generations...
Both of Pavlina's parents have Pluto in Leo. And she has an older
sister, Simona, who went to the same school as she and I in the
early 1980s. But let me finally expose a few real life events from
the past. In 1983, a year after I had fallen in love with her, she
switched school to Winterthur, from a more technical/scientific
school to one oriented more towards language. As I heard later,
her new class consisted only of women and she was the tallest of
them, which she reportedly like, and which reminds, in retrospect,
of course a lot of Artemis and her orgiastic nymphs.
I met her a few more times, usually on meetings with others from
my school class. One was sledging down from Uetliberg in Zurich
(and before that walking up). One other was a mask party, in which
I was wearing a kind of superhero costume that looked maybe a bit
silly, and to that party she and her sister came with two guys,
and I remember an other girl from my class announcing that they
would come with two gay guys. I do not remember enough about how
they looked like in order to judge now whether that was true, but
she did kiss one of them on the mouth that evening. The third
meeting and the last in which I spoke to her face to face was a
dinner, and I remember her hair that was going over her face, so
that her face was almost completely hidden from view.
She told me that she would usually go to school with a Vespa, a
guy going to the same school would take her there. That means I
was already 18 by then, i.e. it was 1984 or a bit later, when I,
too was already driving a Vespa, and actually I do not know why
I chose to want a Vespa. Another one of many symmetries between
me an her. At the end of that evening when saying goodbye, she
closed her eyes and pointed her lips for a kiss, but I backed off,
not prepared for it and still a bit mad a her for having kissed
an other guy last time I met her. So, the moment passed and I
lost contact for several years. Of course, I regretted not to
have kissed her very shortly afterwards, the quincunx just does
not allow to react so quickly to something very different than
oneself...
It was also important then that she is 1.5 years older than me.
She only visibly came into puberty in terms of clothes and makeup
and perfume etc. in the spring in which I fell in love with her.
And me, too, I was not early with puberty. So, I was behind in
those terms and that made an actual relation difficult.
About spring and Prague. There is a short story by Karel Capek,
called "The Blue Chrysanthemum", in which an old, half crazy
woman (crone, last moon phase, Hecate, Pisces, etc.) brings this
rarity (there are no blue Chrysanthemums, except if artificially
colored) to a guy who is the architect of a garden of a Prince
sometime in the past, roughly in the 18th or 19th century. He
and the Prince and policemen search the area several times, but
cannot find the blue Chrysanthemum, and yet the old woman does
bring some more every night. Symbolically, this is again a poetic
fusion of sun (Chrysanthemum means "gold flower") and the moon
(the blue color).
In the end, the guy is already in the train leaving the area and
suddenly he can see the flower in the garden of an employee of
the railways. He gets out of the train and walks there.
Now, there is no road to that tiny little garden besides the small
house, only the railways lead to it and there is a sign that says
do not enter. This is why the garden was not found in the searches
before that. The guy takes some flowers home, but at home they do
not grow well, the flowers grow in spring, but develop fungus by
summer and always die at the end of August. In the original garden
it had been growing on very hard, dry clay.
Many things lead from here: The old Egyptian goddess Heqet, symbol
of life and fertility, with the head of a frog, representing the
fertility of the Nile when from its flood many frogs apparently
come to life and the scarabs's eggs hatch from their pills. She was
married to Khnum, as variation of ram-headed Amun. Khnum would form
babies out of clay and put them into the womb of women to make them
pregnant. The formation of life out of clay reminds, of course, of
Adam's first wife Lilith (my mean black moon Lilith is at 14*16
Pisces, i.e. right on her sun, which might even explain some of the
black-white contrast in her catwoman/joker image, or maybe not).
And there is the Golem of Prague (Golem means "unformed" or "embryo"),
created at a given date and place, namely 17 March 1580 at 4 AM, by
Rabbi Loew and two more men, representing the 4 elements. And it was
near the Vlatva at a clay cavity, which reminds me of one of the maybe
most poetic creations, the excavator near the Vlatva in Capek's "The
Absolutum at Large" which turned into a religious symbol.
Artemis was responsible for child birth, since she already helped
at the birth of her twin brother Apollon, just after she herself was
born. So, there is a line from Heqet to Hecate to Artemis. (And on
to Alexander the Great, who was born when Artemis' temple, the 7th
World Wonder, burnt down - she was guarding the birth of Alexander
at the time..., so Alexander's fate was also her Phoenix.)
But back to the image of something growing in spring, prospering and
already decaying by summer and then dying near the end of August.
Prague spring in 1968 was ended by the Soviet invasion August 21st.
Pluto lost its planetary status on August 24th, 2006, in Prague, or
rather in an again somewhat poetic move got categorized as a "dwarf
planet", which is sort of both a planet and not, it is symbolically,
because its name still says so, just with an added adjective.
Astronomy and astrology are important in Prague, of course. And king
Rudolf II had also a whole street of alchemists trying to make gold.
But back to my story...
In summer of 1986, I fell again in love with Pavlina, it was after
meeting a few people from my former school class, actually seeing
a movie that one of them had made. I fell in love with Pavlina then
even though she was not present, but from then on it was obvious
that I could feel her if I looked into the direction in which she
was, or more precisely, if I oriented my head into that direction.
When she went to bed at evening, I had to tilt my head, too, in
order to feel her with the same intensity again. And I could also
feel her, but in a different way if I looked 180* into the wrong
direction. All of this later came into my "A few new discoveries
in physics" document of 2002, and the idea is that this effect is
related to spin 1 symmetry particles (likely photons) and I guess
most likely some new effect/physics involving virtual photons,
i.e. the forces between things. (Libuse ("lieb") actually likes
physics quite a bit, the usenet news group about string theory was
founded by a Czech, and string theory itself is a theory that had
been tried to be applied to reality in many different ways, but so
far evaded being tied to a specific reality, I related this to Pan
and Capricorn in a former post...)
In August, after returning from holidays with a (male) friend in
the south of France, where I could also always feel her, I called
her one evening. (By the way, unlike most people, at least unlike
most men, I do not have a compass built in, I do not know where
north is, unless I know the place from experience and comparison
with a map; so feeling her changed things in that respect for me,
which was also practically useful at times, as long as I had an
idea of where she roughly was at the time.)
She picked up the phone and I naively asked her if she wanted to
go out with me, to movies or so. She said no. And our conversation
also quickly came to two people who used to be in our class, who
had recently died, most likely both of them by suicide, and it was
when - me, naive young lion, not showing enough compassion - that
I suddenly felt like talking to a wall. So nothing I could do, at
least that was my feeling then - I was naively hoping to meet her
one more time by chance and that this way there would be an
opportunity again.
In early summer 1990, i.e. not long after the end of communism in
Russia and Eastern Europe ("Velvet Revolution" in Prague, again a
poetic combination of two apparently incompatible terms), I saw a
few times a woman (from some distance) at ETH (Swiss Institute of
Technology) on the Hoenggerberg, where I was studying physics at
the time. And she felt like Pavlina to me to some degree. Even
though she seemed a bit less tall than Pavlina, I felt like it might
still be her. So one day I approached her in the Cafeteria outside
and it turned out as I saw immediately from up close because she
ad blue eyes and not light brown one, that it was not her.
But it was also not just anybody. It was a woman who had gone to
school with her in Winterthur, in the same school class. She knew
that Pavlina was studying medicine at the University of Zurich,
and that she was living in houses that were about to be torn down.
I tried a few times to make some "chance" contact by going to or
near the University, say around lunch time, but never saw her, and
just a few days later, I could feel that she was no longer in the
country. As I found out later, she had sometime around that time
left the country and moved to Prague and started to study stage
design there. She got married there, maybe not too long after that
to a British guy with an Irish name, also a bit younger than her,
and somewhat similar in looks, both maybe fitting what the Melusine
choses, the handsome soldier or sailor, and also someone that looks
a bit like Kafka, with the ears going somewhat to the side. She
became mother of a son in about 1991. She made stage designs for
several plays as I could see on the internet, and directed at least
one short play, "Krapp's Last Tape" by Samuel Beckett. Irish fits
also into the slot between Pisces and Aries, take St.Patrick's day.
In 1998, shortly after Neptune had moved into Aquarius, I took the
courage to call her sister in Zurich. (I had no address of Pavlina,
and did not know where she lived.) She told me where she lived and
also gave me her phone number in Prague. I called the number about
the next day also in the evening, and got a child's voice, probably
in Czech on the phone, almost certainly her son. Then she came to
the phone. I told her that I loved her and that I could feel her.
She told me that she was married, which I did not know at the time,
and it disturbed me that she replied with a fact to a statement of
love. Being married to someone and being (still) in love with that
person are not always things that are together. We talked very
briefly and me saying that I studied physics and was now working as
a software developer did almost certainly give her the impression
that I was just like her parents and her sister, all of them more
technically minded and had been working with computers.
There was a dream I once had with both sisters in it. We were together
at lunch, maybe at her parent's place. Afterwards we went for a walk.
I was talking to her sister and Pavlina was lagging behind us, as I
noticed. I turned around to meet her and she had some kind of pen
around her neck, with a necklace and the cover of the pen in shape of
a cone roughly as it was fabricated at the time. She wanted to put the
cover onto the pen again or rather the other way round and I wanted to
help her with that. But she wanted to do it herself and I let her do
so. This dream was probably in the very early 1990s. (Reminds me also
of the movie "Inception" that I saw just a few days ago ("top"), and
of a Tintin book with extraterrestrials landing on a volcano island.)
In my imaginary or "imaginary" conversations with her, some things
look a bit different than in so-called objective reality. Possible,
of course, that this reflects only *my* wishes and nothing from her
side, but I do feel like I am just one aspect of her balancing in
her life her Magic Rectangle, with a real or "real" life in Prague
and a virtual/dream life that involves the telepathic contact with
me in Adliswil. Anyway, in these conversations, she said that I did
help her, that without me she might have committed suicide in the
past (talking roughly about the 1990s). Now this may seem like bad
influence from me now, considering the happy image that at least the
current Facebook photos of her and her family show, but it does not
feel like it to me, in the following ways.
A Mystic Rectangle is very susceptible to transiting planets in my
view, changes from trines and sextiles to t-square and quincunx etc.
and back to harmony again within just 5 days for the moon, for example.
Very difficult to balance, and the synastry of me and her is certainly
quite harmonic, if not too harmonic, with so many trines and sextiles
(but also oppositions) in it. Before I met her, my mood used to be
very constant and stable, but since I met her and fell in love with
her, I do feel considerably more change during a month. This may be
just a natural development with age, but whenever I do decouple
emotionally from her, such variations clearly decrease.
I called her one more time, maybe two weeks later or so. I asked her
if she loved me, if she never loved me. When pressed that way, she
replied that she never loved me. That is the last time I spoke to her,
I said that I think she is wrong that she is deceiving herself there,
but what could I do. After all she has family and a life there, I am
just an intruder, there is no real-life objective provable path from
me to her.
But there are indirect indications, like the woman I met at ETH.
Also, her sister married a guy with the same initials as me, and she
named her first and only child (a son, too), like me, Alain.
Does not feel to me like there is actually no connection at all, but
it may very well be that it is inaccessible to her conscious mind. In
my "conversations" with her, she "said" that had she not had a family
then, she would have come to meet me right away, which may even in my
hopeful eyes be more my imagination or maybe her "tantalizing schemes"
in her unconscious or her unspoken ways of handing the balance between
the opposites of her Mystic Rectangle.
The first name of her father is the same as the one of the philosopher
Edmund Husserl, who was born in the city she grew up (Ostrava). Husserl
wrote about phenomenology, about perception of the world. Time for
another quote by Vera Linhartova (her sun is in early Aries):
"What we can say, goes into words. The words put themselves
between us and our conceptions, which have so far surrounded
us, like a new and independent element, like a third partner
in a game. Slowly we approach them and string them together,
one besides the other; they form an invisible curtain, of which
one cannot say, whether it connects us with our conceptions
or separates us from them. In the space occupied with correlation
that spans between us and our conceptions, words like "connect"
and "separate" loose their common meaning and win a higher
meaning shared by both of them, "being in between"."
-- Vera Linhartova at the beginning of "Geschichten ohne
Zusammenhang" (Suhrkamp, 1965).
My work in public around astrology grows from there, the document
"A few new discoveries in physics" of 2002, my astrology programs
Delphi/astrolib for containing also the cryptographic hashes of my
discoveries in order to stake the claim, my involvement with Liz
Greene's work and psychological and otherwise astrology, my odyssey
in usenet - all in all just various attempts to maybe have to chance
to be a part of her life, not just virtually in dream world, but
maybe someday really again..
At the end of the day, despite all attempts to forget her and break
the connection with her, I still love her and feel her. I do feel
like fate is not treating me fairly. Sure, I got all this special
and unique work on astrology, how it works, and much more, and I also
managed to extract something on my own, namely the "xphi idea" to
describe elements from first principles. Sure, many of the symbols
appear also there, like the "cactus" in my drawing under "elementary
spacetime", reminding of Capek's "Stolen Cactus" story or also the
taking of photos of Cactus in Switzerland in Milan Kundera's novel
"The Unbearable Lightness of Being", and so on. In that sense, I may
- like already with the Vespa - have become just one of the things
in Libuse's eternal collection of symbols.
My first answer ever to a question to the I Ching was 64 Wei Chi.
* 64. Wei Chi / Before Completion
*
* above LI THE CLINGING, FLAME
* below K'AN THE ABYSMAL, WATER
*
* This hexagram indicates a time when the transition from disorder to order
* is not yet completed. The change is indeed prepared for, since all the
* lines in the upper trigram are in relation to those in the lower. However,
* they are not yet in their places. While the preceding hexagram offers an
* analogy to autumn, which forms the transition from summer to winter, this
* hexagram presents a parallel to spring, which leads out of winter's
* stagnation into the fruitful time of summer. With this hopeful outlook the
* Book of Changes come to its close.
*
* THE JUDGMENT
*
* BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
* But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
* Gets his tail in the water,
* There is nothing that would further.
*
* The conditions are difficult. The task is great and full of responsibility.
* It is nothing less than that of leading the world out of confusion back to
* order. But it is a task that promises success, because there is a goal that
* can unite the forces now tending in different directions. At first, however,
* one must move warily, like an old fox walking over ice. The caution of a
* fox walking over ice is proverbial in China. His ears are constantly alert
* to the cracking of the ice, as he carefully and circumspectly searches out
* the safest spots. A young fox who as yet has not acquired this caution goes
* ahead boldly, and it may happen that he falls in and gets his tail wet when
* he is almost across the water. Then of course his effort has been all in
* vain. Accordingly, in times "before completion," deliberation and caution
* are the prerequisites of success.
*
* THE IMAGE
*
* Fire over water:
*
* The image of the condition before transition.
*
* Thus the superior man is careful
* In the differentiation of things,
* So that each finds its place.
*
* When fire, which by nature flames upward, is above, and water, which flows
* downward, is below, their effects take opposite directions and remain
* unrelated. If we wish to achieve an effect, we must first investigate the
* nature of the forces in question and ascertain their proper place. If we can
* bring these forces to bear in the right place, they will have the desired
* effect and completion will be achieved. But in order to handle external
* forces properly, we must above all arrive at the correct standpoint
* ourselves, for only from this vantage can we work correctly.
-- Richard Wilhelm translation, English by Cary F. Baynes
The question was literally "What about Prague?" but in my mind it was
about whether me and Pavlina could ever get together. So what does Wei
Chi mean in this context, never, late in life, maybe in a next life,
or maybe get all these things indirectly, by reading Czech stuff, and
maybe a different woman with similar symbols around her?
Waiting for Godot ? Am I just writing one more of "Krapp's Tapes" now ?
I leave it to the reader to judge whether or how much of this connection
was real or imaginary, but remember the meeting at ETH in 1990 and the
name her sister chose for her son. Both very unlikely to happen without
a genuine connection between two apparently separate fates.
(At the Astrology World Congress 2000 in Lucerne, Liz Greene related the
12th house to "clandestine relationships", which taken literally would
mean relations between the "destinies of clans" rather than destinies
between individual beings. See also Gwen Orel's story about her airline
"Limbo Down" between Zurich and Prague and she ended up with some poetic
experiences and giving a book away... http://www.litvision.org/orel.html
so Artemis and Apollon still dancing, like Ginger and Fred? But I am
getting ahead of my reasoning - forget this, until..., well until it
makes sense...)
As for me, every day I can feel her and I love her. That is not going
to change, independently of whether we get some more direct contact in
the future or not, but I still dream of it. I have no choice, at least
not in the "virtual world". In the real world, I could maybe someday
find another woman, will have to see, I am not as good as Pavlina seems
to be at juggling opposites. You know, maybe I am just one of many
"balls" that she has juggled in her life, maybe my importance on her
side is really negligible. Who knows for sure, she leaves no traces in
objective, outer reality, so proof is impossible either way.
But if the little fox...
I would still love to meet her again. But I do also feel betrayed;
not that I could say by whom exactly, maybe life, maybe fate, maybe
my own approach to life, but I can't help loving her, it is just
not something that one can decide consciously, at least not without
simply banning something that *is* to unconscious Tartaros.
Adliswil, 5 August 2010, 8:57 [originally]
[Just when it seemed that things could go on like this for many
more years and when Hermes appeared to take a deep breath, maybe
in an attempt to change costumes once more - he suddenly but also
very calmly turned around and faced the audience for the first
time, with maybe one previous exception, and said the following]
So, where is this going to go? Isn't it obvious that Odysseus
and the Sirens form an inseparable unit anyway? Without the
Sirens, Odysseus would not be something special, and without
Odysseus nobody would remember the Sirens. The reason they are
remembered is that they are a unit and at the same time always
remain separated. Pavlina's pictures are just shields! ...
Hah! Got you again. No, seriously, where is this going?
Well, with the author's s.node Firduria ending in a few days,
he might even realize that Pavlina has, of course, a Capricorn
AC like any respectable tree nymph and in her case with a mean
black moon Lilith there, so therefore the catwoman/joker image,
and her Neptune in Scorpio at the MC can do just as well as a
Pisces MC, right? ... No, got you again, what are you thinking,
are you stupid? That abstruse idea that s.node Firduria could
be more than just a mental token for the retarded - but luring
you in again into sideways thinking, right? What are you
thinking, really? Do you believe everything you are told?
No, he will simply write his web site and develop what he calls
his "xphi idea", the idea that space starts with in/out, time
with rest/move and the combinations form the 4 elements. That
idea will slowly grow and they will privately keep dancing like
they already are doing for many centuries, like the "Ginger and
Fred" tree drawing on his web site (or Gehry building in Prague,
close to where Pavlina lives or at least lived some time ago).
Luring you in again? Anyway, he will just keep low and thus
evade the slowly reemerging curiosity of people and in the end,
who knows maybe the two will even meet in this life again, not
that he - Odysseus - would mind, but I am starting to deceive
you again - or maybe not? Art is all that remains, right?
Then again, he may simply chose another nymph... ;)
[Hermes, noticing that people are starting to believe again all
he might say - hey, just get in touch if you two really love
each other and can feel each other, if not, don't - and turns
sideways once more and quotes Vera Linhartova the third time,
from her short story called (not!) Plato's Cave]
"But who would claim that a sign ceases to be a sign just
because its cause has been revealed?"
[Hermes turns into a mirror that becomes transparent and
then disappears, until, but invent something yourself...]
)o+
--
PS: Do you, the readers, really think that there would be so
much back and forth in me without a connection to a Mystic
Rectangle influenced by the ever moving moon? Or what? :)
And what about the moon-moon conjunction in Aries, would
the impatience really be so huge from me alone? :)
PPS: Does she maybe have an AC in early Cancer, like the lady
in Mucha's painting? (By the way, anybody noticed that in the
painting, the signs are plotted the other way than usual?)
Postscript 8 August 2010:
Yesterday, 7 August (my 44th birthday) I spent in the french
speaking part of Switzerland, where a friend with his family
is on holidays, camping. The day had all elements of sun/moon
in Leo/Cancer, night and day, young and old, all kinds of
animals (cats, dogs, fish, birds, etc.), and so on, almost
the whole spectrum of life (and death), in a tamed way.
You may think about what I wrote about Pavlina what you want,
but my heart - and I am usually not seeing things so black -
tells me still that the construct that was somehow chosen,
by whoever, has come to its end and since I myself already
tried all approaches, direct, indirect and on my side only
or not, I am very worried about what may happen, afraid that
when something should happen on her side, it would then be
too late to do anything about it any more. :( :( :(
I hope this is just the afterglow of my s.node Firduria, with
Neptune in Scorpio conjunct the s.node, an illusion emphasized
during the previous two years and would not mind, of course,
should things simply relax again to a normal level, but again,
very likely I would not have written down all I have about this
rather private story, unless at least I was worried a lot. But
maybe it was just a combination of previous times, including
maybe also some strange influencces from usenet and generally
astrologers. (Just in case such influences are now reflected
by a mirror on my side and would no longer have any effect.)
Keeping my fingers crossed and I wish I had an option - to do
nothing will help nothing, any direct approaches lead nowhere,
as the past has unmistakably shown, and together with almost
all direct ones can only ridiculize me, but not help anyone.
Hey, maybe I really just don't get all these things about what
goes on unspoken behind the scenes, I really wish is was so.
)o+
Second Postscript 8 August 2010:
I have "signed up" on Facebook today and so could see a few
more details. Different city (at least husband), also one of
Artemis' cities, one that what mentioned in the first post,
should be ovious which one. Looks from the "Relationship's
Status" at least superficially not like the marriage is as
happy as I assumed. But let me quote something I wrote about
2 3/4 years ago here at alt.astrology.tropical, 17 Nov 2007:
: Last weekend, maybe a bit overemphasized by the
: new moon in Scorpio, and Lilith there, I imagined what
: would happen if I just cut the emotional connection that
: I feel between me and her. I had previously chosen to
: let go of the connection, but then it had always been in
: effect just ignoring it, which lead to tensions that
: would only resolve once I realized that the connection
: still existed. So, really cutting the connection would be
: different. The feeling I had last weekend was that if I cut,
: then I would bleed to death and not much later, things on
: her side would perish, too, it appears rather from a lack
: of blood. Very strange to me, since so far I had assumed
: that it was rather her who was hanging on, but that I in
: principle would be able to cut the connection without too
: much trouble if really needed to do so. But that seems
: not to be the case.
:
: In my feeling, she is in many respects like a traumatized
: person, only able to consciously look at parts of reality.
I do feel that in the time since then the connection has broken
many times, sometimes from my side, but maybe even more often
from hers, or maybe just from general unconscious chaos in the
world, although not so much in Switzerland and the people I know.
(Not like people have no worries and problems here, but it is
really almost always much tamer than anywhere else, so close to
the "navel", I guess, any storm is just a little breeze).
About 12 years ago or so, my parents still had a cat, a very
gentle and nice cat, but also very shy and a bit traumatized
from being in a home for cats at early life. Once we tried to
take her to my appartment when my parents went on holidays,
assuming she would be fine there, because I was likely the
person she was least afraid of. But it did not work, she would
only hide below her bed, and after less than a day I simply took
her back to my parents appartment and would visit in the morning
and in the evening. That worked fine, she was a bit lonely, of
course, but fine.
So, this makes this a very subtle situation, which can probably
only be mended very gently again, but this time I want at least
to find a way in which I either become a tangible part of this,
or if that is not possible get some more freedom on my side.
However, should it come to a matter of life and death, maybe I
will just react like I reacted with Mimi the cat, i.e. give in,
but no - not this time I am afraid, not with Pluto in Capricorn,
I guess. I will have to see if "wei chi", gentle steps by the
Chinese fox of me across the thin ice will do, maybe in terms of
Saturn in Libra gently signalling some opportunities? The slow
and careful approach also has the advantage of preventing the
previous mishaps when either side made a sudden, unexpected move.
The story of me and her until she came forward and wanted me to
kiss her and how her facebook images evolved from two masks, to
side view, to face on, remind a bit of a lion, or maybe the arc
of her hair still fits the n.node in Gemini as in my original
idea of her birth time (in my "conversations" she said that 10
AM was the time on her birth certificate, but that she thought
that it was rather 10:15 AM, i.e. n.node in 12th, not 1st).
So, at least I am relieved that the situation has become a bit
more transparent and open and so has some more opportunity to
be mended. I do think that not unlikely all the back and forth
and my health issues have come from this sun-moon or Artemis-
Apollon connection. To me Switzerland is more related to Leo,
to Apollon, very stable, but the creations of the wilder sister
who goes hunting in nature are very poetic, but also very, very
fragile, that is why the blue Chrysamthemum dies so early. Sun
and moon need each other, without the sun, the moon would not
shine, and without the moon, the sun would lose its largest
projection surface in the sky (photographic films are based on
silver ions, i.e. two references to the moon (silver, Io cow).
I can help, and will certainly try my best and I still love her
and can feel her, so I will offer opportunities, a set of paths
to some hopefully more balanced arrangements, provided I get at
least a somewhat better deal this time than in the past 20 years.
What would you do? You cannot tell the Melusine what you know
directly, it would destroy all, you have to provide her a path
on a soft surface on which her bleeding feet do not hurt too
much. (Like all sophisticated adult women, she probably thinks
that she can see and handle it all, but women - allow me to be
so blunt with the sun in Leo - are by nature gifted with a larger
unconscious than men, so they do not have a chance in such cases,
they need a man; and vice-versa a man cannot solve all problems
without emotional feedback, and also that had been very much
lacking by women lately, not blaming any side, but it is not so
complicated, love is easy by nature, it is just human beings that
make it more complicated than it has to be, some complications
are certainly fun, but when people actually start to perish, to
most people involved, even if only marginally, the fun ends.
Anyway, at least some light ahead, finally some things that I
can do and do not looked doomed from the start...
(Sure this may all still be happening in my "12th house shell",
but at some point I have to go with what I feel, and the love
connection I have with her is the most real thing that I ever
had in my life, and it would be so easy, all the rest can be
arranged in all kinds of ways and I also do not feel like her
environment would care all that much, so wei-chi might actually
still mean that "Katelbach" (or Godot if you do not know who
that Katelbach is) would come... Anyway, thanks for reading who
ever might have stubled on this, I am sure you could help, even
if you read this much later in the past, for this kind of story
this does in my experience not matter all that much, although
it still does. So thanks again! Keeping my fingers crossed.
)o+
(english translation of a post I made recently to a forum at astro.com)
What I will say here about the Moon can, of course, be directly applied
to the Moon in a birth chart (or in the usual ways partially to Cancer
or 4th/10th house, etc.) - but it also carries distinctively further:
As I hope to show, the Moon is linked much more deeply and directly
with the very nature of astrology than recognized thus far.
Before I can do that, I must first unfold a few things...
*Round Things and Turning in Circles*
The moon changes its "face" periodically during the course of each
month: From empty to full and back. Hence and also because the moon is
visually round the identification of everything round/cyclic with the
Moon.
Exactly because with the Moon everything turns in round, you cannot
describe and analyze it all that logically linearly, hence instead
simply a catalog of lunar things, they will soon start to interweave...
*A Mirroring, Reflecting "Nothing"*
The moon "only" reflects the light of the sun; for example if the Moon
is in Leo it is not as with the Sun measurably midsummer, but it still
has an effect.
If you want to understand a seemingly mysterious complex woman as a man,
you should then often not to think to complicated, not "project too much
light" into it. With thinking very simply, you often get already quite
close, even if you then still have not chance to reach the "nothing" at
the very end.
Oscar Wilde has driven this to the extremes in the "The Sphinx without a
Secret"*, where a woman simply rented a room just to cultivate her so
beautifully "empty" secret, by spending a few hours every week there and
not doing anything in particular there...
* The Sphinx without a Secret:
http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/SphWit.shtml
*Artemis/Hecate and the Spring Point*
The moon goddess Artemis was born shortly before her twin brother
Apollon and immediately helped as a midwife at his birth. As a midwife
she is where new life emerges or generally where new things are created.
Hecate is rather a death goddess, and the only one of the old gods in
Greek mythology who kept her place after the revolution by Zeus and his
generation. In that sense, she is the most immortal goddess, older than
all gods that were, are and will be.
Often they were seen as a unit, at the point between death and
(re-)birth.
Astrologically this transition is between the end of Pisces and the
start of Aries at the beginning of spring.
*The Love for Art*
If you live forever like Hecate, other things become important than for
mortals.
Humans come and perish again so quickly, but works of art abide with
Artemis for centuries and more as "companions". Everything what seems
important to humans in life she has seen again and again, only what
comes in intensity to a birth or death still has a certain meaning to
her.
Conversely, Artemis is always hunting for new things, completely wild,
untamed Avantgarde. On the search for something new and intensive enough
to still make sense in her eternal life.
*Symmetry and Asymmetry and Opposites*
Now I am about to start to weave things. For men I should maybe mention
that this can in a way get very illogical, because opposites often do
not contradict themselves around the Moon, but rather fertilize each
other.
The beauty of women is often based on passively mirroring and being
round. This is certainly also physically optically by showing or hiding
of round and mirrored attributes like eyes, breast with nipples and
backside. But there also, in one move so to speak, playing with
asymmetry, with hairdo or clothes, especially artists and so often show
lots of asymmetry to there, sometimes it can also be directly physically
with different eye colors, etc. And, of course, the whole thing is not
limited to what is visually apparent, a beautiful women is also "round"
inside.
Side remark: In order to interest a woman, you can try to make this
passive roundness turn, i.e. not by approaching her frontally, but
somehow again and again "tangentially" and thus make her turn. What is
not supposed to mean that the man would then control the game, of
course.
The black-and-white Chinese Yin-Yang symbol with lots of round elements
which probably everybody knows has its historical origins also in the
image of a hill, where during the course of a day the sunny and shadowy
side trade places, thus opposites and yet One and periodically in
motion.
Exactly therefore besides round things also what is very distinctively
angled is also very lunar, etc.
(continued in part 2)
(continued from part 1)
*Black-Red-White*
The moon is "white" at full moon, black-and-white for most of the time
and at new moon slightly reddish dark. Since the female period is
associated with the lunar cycle, the red is also the red of the
menstrual blood (or of birth).
The growth towards full moon is also like the growing of the pregnant
belly until birth. In mythology the lunary female is often threefold,
also for three phases in life, girl (not yet able to have children),
adult woman and then old woman (cannot have children any more).
*Aesthetics in Art*
Im art you often see these three colors, but then also often round
things and symmetry. Also in photography, which is (or was before
digital photography) based on silver, the metal of the moon.
Simply visualize a few famous images or sculptures and yes, often it is
then exactly a lunar element that makes the difference, resp. if you
would imagine it removed it would often remove a big part what makes of
the work of art a work of art.
In there also lies a great familiarity with the Moon, with what is
motherly, with what you see after birth, like e.g. immediately the eyes
and breasts of the mother.
Conversely, Artemis is searching (at least since modernity) often the
aesthetics of a newborn child, which is from a sober angle often very
ugly compared to what is usually considered "beautiful" - not smooth,
round, but wrinkled and clotted - and, yet, is able to bind its parents
in love like nothing else can. Exactly this is what Artemis tries to
achieve in art.
*Golem, Robots, Large Cities and Prague*
Artemis, the wild huntress close to nature is, yet, also a goddess of
cities, from Zeus himself she got 50 cities.
Prague is mytstically considered the city of all cities, and yes, there
you can find lots of lunar things, but it is also often rather in the
shadow than in the light.
The name "Prague" apparently means "passage", possibly a ford in ancient
times, but for which there is apparently no historical evidence, but
symbolically one is immediately reminded of the spring point, the
passage between death and life.
In the painting "La Plume" by the czech Art Nouveau painter Alfons Much,
Mucha has, as an artistic trick, extended the Zodiac to 14 signs,
between Pisces and Aries, hidden in the neck of the beauty, he has put
two new star signs, symbolizing also the passage between death and
rebirth as also with the ancient Egyptians.
* La Plume:
http://static.curiator.com/art/x_0751dd5238ae78c9a86c003558a4c38b.jpg
In Egypt it was Heqet and Khnum who at the headwaters of the Nile
created new life out of clay, as in the tale in Prague the Golem was
made out of clay at the shore of the river Vltava. Also robots are, if
you want, an attempt to create life artificially, and the word "robot"
comes from a theater play by Karel Capek (the word is the invention of
his brother Josef).
There is lots of art in Prague, but most of it is invisible to all the
tourists.
*Sleep, Dream, Flush*
Artists or maybe the "Bohème" (Prague is in Bohemia) create there art
often not consciously, analytically and linearly, but often in search of
circles, in dreams and also in intoxication, exactly in order to get as
close as possible to the secret of the Moon.
The "automatic writing" of the Surrealists also comes to mind.
*Theater*
Even if Artemis has 50 cities, she herself is certainly no "Bourgeois",
she rather lives in an urban jungle, maybe in houses that are to be
demolished and which she furnishes.
But in theater two worlds come together like black and white in the
moon. The audience in the darkness, the stage in the light. The
Bourgeoisie in the audience, the Bohème on the stage. And the actors
reflect on stage what is going on in the "bourgeois" world in a very
dense and lunar way. And the bourgeois then even applaud to it. The is
serves then (I should maybe justify this a little more, but out of
space) to flush the Bourgeoisie unconsciously, so that they somehow
unconsciously recognize what they are doing and afterwards unnoticeably
change it a bit.
But time to come to what I promised:
*The Moon and Astrology*
In astrology, destiny is determined by the moment of birth, i.e. exactly
the point at which Artemis, the point around which her interest into the
world circles.
And destiny does not unfold linearly, but in circles, namely the circles
that the planets do in the sky (geocentrically, with all the crystal
spheres and epicycles).
That's already it, as so often with the Moon, at the end it is almost
empty and somehow banal and yet the whole world is contained in it.
(continued in part 3)
(continued from part 2)
*The Moon and the World (or Prague and Sedna)*
Since the discovery of Uranus, the sections in history until the
discovery of the next planet have been connected with the previous one.
Like Enlightenment, revolutions and railways with Uranus, photography
and oil/automobile with Neptune, atomic bombs and more with Pluto.
Now, since summer 2005 at the astronomy world congress in Prague (!)
Pluto is officially-astronomically no longer a planet (which was from a
purely astronomically-scientifically standpoint unavoidable). The must
have ended the period of Pluto.
So, what after that?
Well I say, just as Pluto was as the first object in its distance
formative for its epoch, today it is the first object discovered in
sphere further beyond, namely Sedna, which was discovered in autumn
2003.
If you extend planetary rulerships, Uranus got one star sign from
Saturn, Neptune from Jupiter, Pluto from Mars. Thus Sedna would get a
star sign from Venus, I presume that Venus would rather keep the female
sign Taurus and Sedna would get Libra (totally or partially, however you
want to see it).
And Sedna is at the moment in the last decan of Taurus (and that still
for a while, since very far away and thus slow, even if at the moment
relatively close to the sun).
This suggests that in current times money would be very important, more
important than whether you have atomic bombs or not. This would be a
good fit with current times to me. Also that (like Sedna in Inuit
mythology) you have somehow no hands with which you could have an effect
on society, that you instead often somehow have to adapt to a relatively
stubborn but also often benevolent care in some areas.
I see that also from the point of view of Artemis or from Prague: All
the suffering that Pluto brought with WWII and the Holocaust and
afterwards with the cold war, not least to Prague, Prague/Artemis
"wanted" to change by creating a more and more matriarchal world, where
passive power is stronger (than active one).
It is in the lunar nature of it, that even if I was correct with a
"Sedna Epoch of World History", that might remain hidden.
Happy 2015 everybody!
Alain
Bind/release in the Elements
Just as a quick dated "proof of discovery", my way of defining four elements in terms of in/out (space) and rest/move (time) also allows to widely identify "rest" with "bind" and "move" with "release", because when things move they usually do so in largely unrelated ways.
One noteable side effect of this is that the 8 trigrams of the I Ching can now also be more convincingly attributed to "Greek" elements in pairs:
EARTH
- Mountain (male, 3rd son) holds Earth together ("resting", "keeping still"), like hard rock.
- Earth (female, mother) lets Earth go ("devoted/yielding", "receptive"), like soft loess or sand.
WATER
- Lake (female, 3rd daughter) holds Water together.
- Water (male, 2nd son) lets Water go, releases it (rain, stream).
AIR
- Heaven (male, father) holds Air together ("strong").
- Wind (female, 1st daughter) lets Air flow freely.
FIRE
- Fire (female, 2nd daughter) holds Fire together (flame, "clinging").
- Thunder (male, 1st son) lets Fire go, releases its energy (lightning).
Details at exactphilosophy.net.
Alain Stalder (*1966)
Just as a quick dated "proof of discovery", my way of defining four elements in terms of in/out (space) and rest/move (time) also allows to widely identify "rest" with "bind" and "move" with "release", because when things move they usually do so in largely unrelated ways.
One noteable side effect of this is that the 8 trigrams of the I Ching can now also be more convincingly attributed to "Greek" elements in pairs:
EARTH
- Mountain (male, 3rd son) holds Earth together ("resting", "keeping still"), like hard rock.
- Earth (female, mother) lets Earth go ("devoted/yielding", "receptive"), like soft loess or sand.
WATER
- Lake (female, 3rd daughter) holds Water together.
- Water (male, 2nd son) lets Water go, releases it (rain, stream).
AIR
- Heaven (male, father) holds Air together ("strong").
- Wind (female, 1st daughter) lets Air flow freely.
FIRE
- Fire (female, 2nd daughter) holds Fire together (flame, "clinging").
- Thunder (male, 1st son) lets Fire go, releases its energy (lightning).
Details at exactphilosophy.net.
Alain Stalder (*1966)
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 1:03:18 AM UTC+2, undifferentiated wrote:
> wu dao wrote:
> >Alain wrote:
> >
> >>Just as a quick dated "proof of discovery", my way of defining four elements in terms of in/out (space) and rest/move (time) also allows to widely identify "rest" with "bind" and "move" with "release", because when things move they usually do so in largely unrelated ways.
> >>
> >>One noteable side effect of this is that the 8 trigrams of the I Ching can now also be more convincingly attributed to "Greek" elements in pairs:
> >>
> >>EARTH
> >>
> >>- Mountain (male, 3rd son) holds Earth together ("resting", "keeping still"), like hard rock.
> >>- Earth (female, mother) lets Earth go ("devoted/yielding", "receptive"), like soft loess or sand.
> >>
> >>WATER
> >>
> >>- Lake (female, 3rd daughter) holds Water together.
> >>- Water (male, 2nd son) lets Water go, releases it (rain, stream).
> >>
> >>AIR
> >>
> >>- Heaven (male, father) holds Air together ("strong").
> >>- Wind (female, 1st daughter) lets Air flow freely.
> >>
> >>FIRE
> >>
> >>- Fire (female, 2nd daughter) holds Fire together (flame, "clinging").
> >>- Thunder (male, 1st son) lets Fire go, releases its energy (lightning).
> >>
> >>Details at exactphilosophy.net.
> >>
> >>Alain Stalder (*1966)
> >
> >Of interest to me at present is a tend to trend.
> >To find an end. A simple end. That is to say. One.
> >Then again, two. Perhaps three or four will do.
> >Beyond five ore a periodic table, beyond a
> >standard model oar mindseeking flung.
> >
> >There's a new book about to be published soon,
> >Lost in Math, by Hossenfelder, in which beauty
> >as seen in the eyes of physicists blinds kinda
> >like how the fives in the TTC mites are.
> >
> >Mobius is a concept one side of me is partial.
> >It has an edge as well sewing twospeak.
> >Extending dimensionally encompassing all.
> >It may explain basically all in all, aye.
> >
> >- twisting a bit in the mouth of a horse
>
> Following crumbs left at xphi.net
> was found what reminds me of David's trip.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/energylanguage/home/wheel-of-time
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/energylanguage/home/noumeric-web
>
> It's good to know, imo, how similar many of us are.
>
> - ore cans be
Billy Culver ("energylanguage" site) is of Irish descent...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammarion_engraving
In the relatively short story "In Densest Gray" by Vera Linhartova,
in some sort of (I guess?) afterlife situation, people have their
environment around them, when he "I" in the story meets someone,
then there is automatically, say, a flat in Paris with lots of
bookshelves etc. around. Reflects how it feels to me when I meet
people, so much different to "meeting" things.
The "I" also meets Flammarion, in one scene she sees him on a boat
in a circular pond, with his telescope, looking into the sky,
which is already surreal enough, but then the pond transforms and
in the end the pond is inside one of those glass spheres, which you
can shake and then snow falls down, or something like that.
> I like that, solid past, fluid future, picture.
In "my" model of the elemenary transformations in the Western star
signs, the transformations are like this:
Fire Signs: Aries=>Leo=>Sagittarius: Earth=>Fire=>Air (goal Water)
Air Signs: Gemini=>Libra=>Aquarius: Fire=>Air=>Water (goal Earth)
Water Signs: Cancer=>Scorpio=>Pisces: Earth=>Water=>Air (goal Fire)
Earth Signs: Taurus=>Virgo=>Capricorn: Fire=>Earth=>Water (goal Air)
The transformation is each time from the earlier/younger star signs
to the older ones, and always starting with a dry element (Earth or
Fire) and ending with a wet one (Air or Water).
According to Aristotle (and me in other ways), dry would also be
hard and brittle, wet also soft and malleable. And (so far I guess
only according to me) dry would also be rather individual/isolated,
wet also rather collective/mixed.
So the past would be rather something that can be identified quite
clearly, like I guess usually when a child sees a rock for the
first time, and is told that it is called a "rock", a rock is then
at first simply a "rock", often only later in life things become
more relative.
But that view is likely also too simple in a way, especially in the
unconscious one would expect things to be already quite mixed up,
as inherited from the parents, already or probably especially in
children and young adults, or not?
By the way if you number the elements 1-Fire, 2-Air, 3-Water and
4-Earth (which is quite a natural order, for several reasons), you
get the following numbers for the transformations, which are also
the 4 numbers you get in the I Ching for each line:
Transf. of Air: 1+2+3 = 6 => 6x6 = 36 Chinese War Stratagems
Transf. of Fire: 4+1+2 = 7 => 7x7 = 49 Qixi Festival / "ch'i"
Transf. of Earth: 1+4+3 = 8 => 8x8 = 64 I Ching
Transf. of Water: 4+3+2 = 9 => 9x9 = 81 Tao Te Ching
So Taoism would be related to "Water"...
Alain Stalder
> So Taoism would be related to "Water"...
Actually, I believe the theme is mainly the moon, in Taoism, and
also in Irish culture, where Christian religion only came in
quite late in history, compared to the rest of Europe, at least,
and even beyond that still strong matriarchal traits, c.f. also
Robert Graves' "The White Goddess".
The moon is usually both black and white, with varying relative intensities, like in yin-yang, or also in the glyph for the star
sign Cancer, where the moon has its/her/his mansion ("rules").
Hossenfelder (who looks very much German, by the way), has her
moon somewhere right in the middle of Cancer, which is at a
square (90°, "tension", "motion") to several planets in Libra,
which symbolizes e.g. harmony, beauty, symmetry, especially in
abstract ways, as in mathematics or String/Membrane Theory which
is definitely more math than physics, since it carries also the
Libra "unbearable lightness of being" feeling where the ground
of "reality" can never be reached.
If I remember correctly, String Theory is sort of the silver
bullet / Möbius Strip of theoretical physics, first physicist
(in the 1950s) thought it might explain the strong nuclear force
but then shifted to other places, until finally String Theory
found a place somewhere where it could not be chased away by
any experiments any more.
I guess with her her sun also in realistic Virgo, Hossenfelder
might really have one or two things to say that really not only
make sense (the state of theoretical physics had already been
very obvious to me already at least 25 years ago) but maybe also
some quite specific intelligent things that could be done instead.
But anyways, I guess myself would never completely fit into that
sheep herd (except as a daytime job, but not fundamentally),
since I am rather not a sheep...
Odysseus tied his companions under two sheep each, so that they
could escape from the cave in which the cyclops held them as
prisoners (and food), while Odysseus clung to a huge ram.
The first was actually in vain in the end, since he only Odysseus
returned safely to Ithaca.
The Odyssey has actually sort of a yin-yang structure in itself,
in the first 12 chapters he is away from home, in the second 12
he is back, and at the start of the 13th ("moon") he wakes up in
a cave, back on Ithaca, but does not recognize it at first.
Alain Stalder
> Actually, I believe the theme is mainly the moon
Well, things that are especially lunar, include besides Taoism
and some Eastern views (and also ancient Western ones, like
Heraclitus, e.g. "the way up and the way down are one and the
same", or ancient theater, see e.g. the two masks), Irish,
also most prominently and with unparalleled ease and female
sovereignty also Czechoslovakia and particularly Prague.
Well, let me simply quote Kafka in the Zürau Aphorisms, in my
own translation of the last of the "109" Aphorisms, which, of
course, must have been strongly influnenced by Eastern wisdom,
I guess most prominently the Tao Te Ching, and it remains
quite a bit dual if he is sarcastic/cynical or serios, which
again fits the moon and her Theater masks much more than just
one of East or West:
It is not necessary that you step out of the house.
Stay at your table and listen.
Do not even listen, just wait.
Do not even wait, just be completely quiet and alone.
Offering herself to be unmasked the world will,
she cannot do otherwise,
enchantedly she will curl around before you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zürau_Aphorisms
At least the Sirens did not remain completely silent this time
I stepped into Usenet river... ;)
Alain
exactphilosophy.net
Snapshot of core content (without "artemis" articles) of 1 Nov 2018.
Notable additions:
* A somewhat formal definition of "movement outside"
and generally the core content revisited ("way")
* Jung's psychological types and "in/out"
* Empedocles and the elements taken literally: Zeus as the root of
fire, Hera of earth, Hades of air and Nestis of water
* Artemis articles:
- Paradoxes (5 articles)
- How astrology might really work (also in German)
- USA/CH, Sedna, Original ideas in ...
© 2002-now Alain Stalder
--
Welcome
I present a way of looking at the world here. That way or idea is not
something that can be proven. But some of the fruits it contains might
be considered for tending to, grow and become part of existing systems
of thought.
Just click sequentially through all menu items on the left, like reading
chapters in a book, and take your time, or go to 'artemis' for every-
and nothing...
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zürich, Switzerland) and am doing this as a
hobby.
Alain Stalder
--
way
After defining elements from immediate perception of the world, inspired
by Kant and Schopenhauer, I relate these elements to physics, the
ancient Greek elements, and to the 8 trigrams of the Chinese I Ching.
--
space and time
Imagine that you have just now started to look at the world.
[image]
One of the first things that you notice is space. There is you and an
outside world that you can see, and you can see more than one thing.
What separates you and what you can see, and what separates the
different things that you see, is space in its most immediate
definition.
Then you also quickly notice that some things move and others do not.
This is time, again in its most immediate definition, as motion or being
at rest.
[image]
Things can rest or move outside and inside the mind. Thus there would a
priori be 4 different kinds of things: What moves outside, what rests
outside, what moves inside, and what rests inside. Let me call them
elements and give them the following names: emo, ero, emi and eri.
emo moves outside
ero rests outside
emi moves inside
eri rests inside
Using a camera, emo and ero might be defined as the difference between
two images taken shortly after each other. Differing pixels would be
emo, same pixels ero. For example, a ball that rolls down a slope would
itself not be emo as a physical object, but emo would be the area the
ball spawns between the two images (excluding the middle if the ball is
uniformly colored).
[image]
leads
Some literature quotes, ideas and different points of view. Always also
see 'artemis' for eventually articles that may expose some topics in a
more contemporarily amenable way.
* Immanuel Kant. The Critique of Pure Reason. 1787.
In the early chapters, Kant discloses that some observable things
cannot be isolated from the self, but instead appear to be themselves
a priori necessary for thinking and observation. These a priori
concepts include space and time in their immediate sense - the
structure in which things appear in the mind and seem to exist outside
of it.
* "By means of the external sense (a property of the mind), we represent
to ourselves objects as without us, and these all in space. Herein
alone are their shape, dimensions, and relations to each other
determined or determinable. [...] Space is not a conception which has
been derived from outward experiences. For, in order that certain
sensations may relate to something without me (that is, to something
which occupies a different part of space from that in which I am); in
like manner, in order that I may represent them not merely as without,
of, and near to each other, but also in separate places, the
representation of space must already exist as a foundation. [...] We
never can imagine or make a representation to ourselves of the
non-existence of space, though we may easily enough think that no
objects are found in it." (translated by J. Meiklejohn)
* "Time is not an empirical conception. For neither coexistence nor
succession would be perceived by us, if the representation of time did
not exist as a foundation a priori. [...] With regard to phenomena in
general, we cannot think away time from them, and represent them to
ourselves as out of and unconnected with time, but we can quite well
represent to ourselves time void of phenomena."
* If I can imagine something, is it then really inside of me? Isn't
there already a separation (space) between me and what I imagine? Such
an extreme definition of self or inside would mean that the self
cannot have any (consciously accessible) attributes, no memory etc.,
because any such attribute of the self would be something that can be
considered by the self and would thus, by definition, not be part of
the self...
* This definition of self reminds of the Tao ("way") in Taoism. Lao Tzu
starts the Tao Te Ching with "The Tao that can be Tao'ed
(trodden/spoken), is not the real (unchanging) Tao".
* The definition of emo as the difference between two images is from
September 2018. Before that I would often consider, say, a ball itself
(or at least its visible surface) as ero, as long as it would rest,
and as emo, when it would be rolling. That overall view still shows a
bit in the first drawing above.
The concept of a "ball" is a priori much more complex than comparing
two images, which becomes evident once you try to program computers to
recognize (3-dimensional) items on 2-dimensional images. How a concept
like a "ball" comes to be in the mind appears to require a lot of
interaction with the environment (typically quite early as a child),
and in the end it is philosophically not so clear whether a "ball" is
rather a natural thing, something that objectively exists, or rather a
useful cultural abstraction of reality, copied from others. See also
e.g. Kant or Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
The new definition of emo↔ero is more fundamental, even though it
reminds of the shadows in Plato's Cave. Thus it might a priori be
better suited for such a fundamental concept as elements are. But,
without having explored where different definitions lead, settling on
just one may be a bit early.
* How would rest/move be defined for other senses than vision?
How would eri and emi be measured inside? Would the only "objective"
way be to measure brain activity outside? Would that be fundamental
enough in this context?
Could the self (observer)4 be measured?
* Would a female observer also consider what is seen as not being part
of herself or would she rather tend to identify with what she sees?
(Is the own body part of the self? And lovers, family, friends, house,
garden, etc.?) In other words, is the distinction between in and out
hard or soft (gradual)?
* What about sleep, dreaming, trance, drunkenness? Why only have a fully
conscious observer?
--
metamorphosis
The next thing that one notices is that motion can start and stop, and
that changes outside and inside seem not to be independent of each
other. In other words, the elements change, maybe even metamorphose into
each other.
What causes or allows these changes? Whatever it is, it must be
something fundamental, like the four elements. So let me simply call it
the fifth element, e5.
Free will seems to be a part of e5. It is possible to lift a spoon and
then to throw it away, i.e. to get something outside that rests into
motion (ero→emo). However, free will cannot be identical to e5, as some
things are much harder to control (try lifting a tree) and things
transform all the time without conscious influence.
Freedom inside the mind seems larger than outside. It is much easier to
lift a tree in the mind, than a real tree. But let me tackle things from
a different angle: Outside on average more things rest than move, while
inside the mind, things are almost always more flowing.
For example, a tree is at rest in most situations, except for a little
movement of leaves and maybe branches. But if you close your eyes and
try to imagine a tree at rest, it will get very hard after a few seconds
not to deviate to other thoughts and to keep the tree at rest.
[image]
In conclusion, on average outside activity is needed to get things
moving, while inside activity is needed to keep things at rest. More
abstractly, emo and eri are thus active, ero and emi are passive. Also,
what is outside resists motion on average more than what is inside. So
emo and ero are hard (out), emi and eri are soft (in). What moves
usually does so in various directions. Hence what rests appears to bind,
what moves appears to release.
emo moves outside active hard release
ero rests outside passive hard bind
emi moves inside passive soft release
eri rests inside active soft bind
e5 transforms the above elements
If you leisurely observe a scene outside, like at the beach, usually
most things will be resting, but there will be some movement. If you
then close your eyes, in my experience, what will be immediately visible
after closing your eyes will be the few things that moved, but frozen in
movement, hence apparently a transition emo→eri, a transition in which
activity is preserved.
[image]
Accordingly, passivity outside would then yield passivity inside,
ero→emi. Actively created change outside, which more often means to get
something in motion than the other way round, usually needs active focus
inside first. Hence transitions in↔out would go both ways, emo↔eri and
ero↔emi. Motion outside can also come to be and stop without much
activity inside, like when an apple falls from a tree. Similarly, such
things can also happen inside without much activity outside. Hence there
would apparently also be transitions emo↔ero and emi↔eri. All in all,
apparently a circle ero↔emo↔eri↔emi↔ero, while other transitions would
at least be less frequent.
[image]
The elements could a priori interface in six ways: emo-ero, emi-eri,
emo-emi, ero-eri, emo-eri, emi-ero. Any interface between elements must
be unobservable, because otherwise it would be something that is
perceived inside or outside, i.e. it would be one of the four elements.
The same argument can be made for e5, of course.
Let me imagine an interface in-out as an infinitely thin membrane. And
imagine, say, a blob of ero at the interface. If it remained passive, it
could start to flow while permeating inside, becoming emi, or the other
way round, and similarly for emo and eri.
[image]
Since interfaces between elements would be invisible, just like e5, they
might a priori have an arbitrarily complex nature, so that the above
picture is a priori maybe just one of the simplest ways of seeing them.
leads
* If free will or the observing self is a part of e5, what is the rest?
Cause and effect, fate, destiny, the free will of others? Quantum
mechanics has relativized the first assumption somewhat, or maybe not.
* What property of the issue of free will or not leads to millions of
variations when thinking about it? Could it possibly even be literally
the effect of many "transformations" in the mind, even in circles,
whatever that may mean precisely?
* Freedom to lift a spoon does not automatically mean freedom of choice
whether to want to lift the spoon or not.
* The interface ero-emi could be seen as the arrangement of things
outside related to a mood, a flow of feelings inside.
* When I say that outside more things rest than move, I mean this in a
very specific sense: Relative macroscopic motion at time scales that
human beings can register.
At long time scales, all things move; microscopically everything is in
motion, as heat is nothing but random motion of atoms or molecules.
When I turn my head, all objects move, but relative motion between
them remains small.
* The present approach to nature is consequently centered on the human
perspective, on direct experience of nature. Modern science usually
differs from that by trying to pick a point of view from which a
problem is easy to describe.
The oldest example for this is astronomy that has been greatly
simplified by solar centered calculations instead of using many
arbitrary epicycles in geocentric calculations.
* Modern science is a very valuable companion for the present approach,
especially for helping to exclude naive mistakes.
* Can my observations about motion, activity and hardness outside and
inside be formalized and thus proven? How would such a mathematical
representation look like? What assumptions would it be based on?
* In any closed system, entropy, roughly a measure of disorder, can at
best remain constant, but usually it increases. With time, macroscopic
directed motion and structures decay into microscopic random motion,
which is, by definition, heat. Life manages to escape this fate by
operating in open systems, by exporting disorder into the environment.
That way, living beings can grow from microscopic seeds to complex
structures and animals can repeatedly create directed motion.
Since science considers the outside world to be mainly inanimate and
the mind to be located in a piece of organic matter, the brain, it
predicts that outside motion tends to disappear, while inside the
conscious mind has a hard time focusing on something, because lots of
mostly unconscious activity in the brain keeps stirring things up.
Science is thus essentially compatible with the considerations
presented so far, except for science's qualitative notion that
creating motion inside the mind is active, requires energy, like
outside. This might, however, simply be due to the viewpoint of
science, which only considers facts in the outer, material world and
might thus not be able to describe inner processes as experienced from
the inside...
* In meditation, calmness of the mind (eri) is often sought by actively
focussing the mind on something, thus reducing emi.
* In daily life, the outer world seems often bigger and stronger than
the inner one. If you look at a bicycle and then close your eyes, you
can quite quickly imagine the bicycle in your mind, but if you then
imagine, say, that you add wings, and open your eyes again, you will
usually not see a winged bicycle.
Conversely, you can usually make everything outside disappear by just
closing your eyes ("turn black", ero), or you can turn your head or
walk away, so that the influence on what one sees outside is
immediately very strong in that sense.
Adding wings to a bicycle outside is still possible, but harder,
because the outer world is harder. It requires several steps involving
eri (planning, focussing), which then lead, via emo, and to a
different arrangement of ero, a winged bicycle.
--
greek philosophy
Aristotle defines elements to be composed of properties that can be felt
by touching. He uses two pairs of opposites, hot-cold and wet-dry, to
define four elements, which he names fire, earth, water and air. And he
identifies wet-dry with soft-hard, viscous-brittle and smooth-rough.
Unlike later the Stoics, he does not consistently identify hot-cold with
active-passive and light-heavy. If you do, you get:
fire hot (active) dry (hard) emo
earth cold (passive) dry (hard) ero
water cold (passive) wet (soft) emi
air hot (active) wet (soft) eri
Aristotle defines a fifth element as immutable, moving only in circles
and existing only in space, while the other four elements move linearly.
And he also arranges the four elements essentially in a circle in which
they transform into each other by flipping one of hot↔cold or wet↔dry at
each transition. The shared theme of a circle links the transformation
of elements to the fifth element.
[image]
This yields a one-to-one correspondence to my previous definition of the
elements, including the same circle.
leads
* Aristotle. On Generation and Corruption. Around 350 BCE.
* "Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of perceptible
body; and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to 'tangible', and
'tangible' is that of which the perception is touch; it is clear that
not all the contrarieties constitute 'forms' and 'originative sources'
of body, but only those which correspond to touch." (Book II,
translated by H. Joachim)
* "From moist and dry are derived (iii) the fine and coarse, viscous and
brittle, hard and soft, and the remaining tangible differences. For
(a) since the moist has no determinate shape, but is readily adaptable
and follows the outline of that which is in contact with it, it is
characteristic of it to be 'such as to fill up'. Now 'the fine' is
'such as to fill up'. For 'the fine' consists of subtle particles; but
that which consists of small particles is 'such as to fill up',
inasmuch as it is in contact whole with whole-and 'the fine' exhibits
this character in a superlative degree. Hence it is evident that the
fine derives from the moist, while the coarse derives from the dry.
Again (b) 'the viscous' derives from the moist: for 'the viscous'
(e.g. oil) is a 'moist' modified in a certain way. 'The brittle', on
the other hand, derives from the dry: for 'brittle' is that which is
completely dry-so completely, that its solidification has actually
been due to failure of moisture. Further (c) 'the soft' derives from
the moist. For 'soft' is that which yields to pressure by retiring
into itself, though it does not yield by total displacement as the
moist does-which explains why the moist is not 'soft', although 'the
soft' derives from the moist. 'The hard', on the other hand, derives
from the dry: for 'hard' is that which is solidified, and the
solidified is dry."
* "The elementary qualities are four [...]. Hence it is evident that the
'couplings' of the elementary qualities will be four: hot with dry and
moist with hot, and again cold with dry and cold with moist. [...]
Fire is hot and dry, whereas Air is hot and moist (Air being a sort of
aqueous vapour); and Water is cold and moist, while Earth is cold and
dry."
* Aristotle arranges the elements in a cycle fire-air-water-earth:
"Thus (i) the process of conversion will be quick between those which
have interchangeable 'complementary factors', but slow between those
which have none. The reason is that it is easier for a single thing to
change than for many. Air, e.g. will result from Fire if a single
quality changes: for Fire, as we saw, is hot and dry while Air is hot
and moist, so that there will be Air if the dry be overcome by the
moist. Again, Water will result from Air if the hot be overcome by the
cold: for Air, as we saw, is hot and moist while Water is cold and
moist, so that, if the hot changes, there will be Water. So too, in
the same manner, Earth will result from Water and Fire from Earth,
since the two 'elements' in both these couples have interchangeable
'complementary factors'. For Water is moist and cold while Earth is
cold and dry-so that, if the moist be overcome, there will be Earth:
and again, since Fire is dry and hot while Earth is cold and dry, Fire
will result from Earth if the cold pass-away."
It appears that Aristotle excludes other transitions, because why else
would they be slower if not because they would have to take place in
sequence as two transitions along the circle?
* Some fragments of Heraclitus suggest the same circle, namely DK B76
"fire's death is air's birth, and air's death is water's birth" and
B36 "psyche's death is water's birth, water's death is earth's birth,
from earth comes water, from water comes psyche", if psyche (or soul)
is identified with air. But knowledge of Heraclitus is based on
fragmentary quotes from later authors like the ones above. Fragment
B31 describes a transformation from fire to sea (water?) and says that
sea is made of equal parts of earth and whirlwind (air?); fragment B90
suggests that he considered fire the primary substance.
Similarly, there have been many views by different philosophers, some
of which are mentioned further below.
* In On Generation and Corruption, Aristotle considers light-heavy not
to be an attribute of any specific elements:
"(i) heavy and light are neither active nor susceptible. Things are
not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon, or suffer action
from, other things. But the 'elements' must be reciprocally active and
susceptible, since they 'combine' and are transformed into one
another. On the other hand (ii) hot and cold, and dry and moist, are
terms, of which the first pair implies power to act and the second
pair susceptibility."
But in On the Heavens, he considers air and fire as light and water
and earth as heavy, in the order earth-water-air-fire, and postulates
the existence of an immutable fifth element that dominates in the sky,
is neither light nor heavy and moves in circles, while the first four
elements move linearly:
"[...] all locomotion, as we term it, is either straight or circular
or a combination of these two, which are the only simple movements.
[...] Now revolution about the centre is circular motion, while the
upward and downward movements are in a straight line, 'upward' meaning
motion away from the centre, and 'downward' motion towards it. [...]
For if the natural motion is upward, it will be fire or air, and if
downward, water or earth. [...] circular motion is necessarily
primary. For the perfect is naturally prior to the imperfect, and the
circle is a perfect thing. [...] These premises clearly give the
conclusion that there is in nature some bodily substance other than
the formations we know, prior to them all and more divine than they.
[...] there is something beyond the bodies that are about us on this
earth, different and separate from them; and that the superior glory
of its nature is proportionate to its distance from this world of
ours. [...] things are heavy and light relatively to one another; air,
for instance, is light relatively to water, and water light relatively
to earth. The body, then, which moves in a circle cannot possibly
possess either heaviness or lightness. For neither naturally nor
unnaturally can it move either towards or away from the centre. [...]
this body will be ungenerated and indestructible and exempt from
increase and alteration [...] earth is enclosed by water, water by
air, air by fire, and these similarly by the upper bodies" (Book I,
translated by J. Stocks)
* Most things in the sky beyond clouds are round or cyclic: sun and moon
are round, planets, as well as stars during night and seasons, move
periodically in predictable cycles.
* The fifth element is also called ether or aether and quintessence.
Many different views of the fifth element and closely related concepts
have emerged over time.
Plato used the word aether to describe the purest form of air in the
Timaeus. But there is also a strong association of the sky with fire,
because stars and planets appear to emit light and the sun provides
heat, and also because fire was often considered the lightest of the
four elements.
The fifth element is generally considered "divine" because gods were
often believed to live in heaven. And it is often also seen as special
in other ways, like able to create life, or immortal like the soul or
maybe pneuma, or able to create matter and to hold it together, or
maybe identified by some alchemists with the philosopher's stone,
which was believed to be able to transform matter, like lead to gold,
etc.?
* Do such associations (historically founded or not) fit well with the
definition of e5 simply because they all keep going in circles around
the same questions?
* Aristotle appears to consistently link hot/cold to active and wet/dry
to passive, see quote from On Generation and Corruption above, or the
following quote from Meteorology:
"All this makes it clear that bodies are formed by heat and cold and
that these agents operate by thickening and solidifying. It is because
these qualities fashion bodies that we find heat in all of them, and
in some cold in so far as heat is absent. These qualities, then, are
present as active, and the moist and the dry as passive, and
consequently all four are found in mixed bodies." (Book IV, translated
by E. Webster)
* David Sedley writes in chapter 11 of The Cambridge History of
Hellenistic Philosophy (Cambridge University Press, 2000) that the
Stoic's identification of hot-cold with active-passive emerged from
medical tradition, from pneuma, breath, which was seen as a mixture of
fire and air, and mentions also that this identification was not so
clearly the only view of the Stoics in their time. A bit later
astrological views emerged that see fire and air as male, and water
and earth as female. See Vettius Valens's Anthologia in the 2nd
century CE and hints in earlier texts by Dorotheus of Sidon and Marcus
Manilius. These views have essentially prevailed, including in
medieval alchemy and up to contemporary astrology.
* According to Diogenes Laërtius in the third century CE, the Stoics
would have identified fire with hot, earth with dry, water with wet,
and air with cold (and dry):
"[...] the four elements are all equally an essence without any
distinctive quality, namely, matter; but fire is the hot, water the
moist, air the cold, and earth the dry - though this last quality is
also common to the air. The fire is the highest, and that is called
aether, in which first of all the sphere was generated in which the
fixed stars are set, then that in which the planets revolve; after
that the air, then the water; and the sediment as it were of all is
the earth, which is placed in the centre of the rest." (7. LXIX,
translated by C. Yonge)
The papyrus Anonymus Londinensis from about the first century CE says
essentially the same about Philistion (apparently Philistion of Locri,
a contemporary of Plato):
"Philiston thinks that we are composed of four 'forms', that is, of
four elements - fire, air, water, earth. Each of these too has its own
power; of fire the power is the hot, of air it is the cold, of water
the moist, and of earth the dry." (XX 24, translated by W. Jones)
According to David Hahm in The Origins of Stoic Cosmology (1977), this
view might have already been quite common among physicians in
classical times. Artistotle's texts about biology seem to implicitly
reflect that view quite clearly, like that air is inhaled cold and
exhaled hot (pneuma). Although there appear to be no contemporary
sources that would directly prove such an identification, Hahm's
detailed argumentation that the Stoics aimed for a unified view of the
elements across all fields seems to make this plausible.
In Stoic belief, the cosmos emerged from fire via air to water to
earth, and back (see Hahm for details), essentially along Aristotle's
circle of the elements.
* In Academica (45 BCE), Cicero lets Antiochus of Ascalon say the
following, influenced by Aristotle and the Stoics:
"Accordingly air [...] and fire and water and earth are primary; while
their derivatives are the species of living creatures and of the
things that grow out of the earth. Therefore those things are termed
[...] elements; and among them air and fire have motive and efficient
force, and the remaining divisions [...] water and earth, receptive
and 'passive' capacity. Aristotle deemed that there existed a certain
fifth sort of element, in a class by itself and unlike the four that I
have mentioned above, which was the source of the stars and of
thinking minds." (Book I 26, translated by H. Rackham)
* In contemporary astrology, fire is associated with imagination, air
with (abstract) thinking and communication, water with feelings, and
earth with pragmatic realism.
* In ancient Greek philosophy there was also the idea of matter
consisting of indivisible physical units (atoms). In Plato's Timaeus,
a model is presented that combines both views by associating the five
elements with the five Platonic solids: fire-tetrahedron,
air-octahedron, water-icosahedron, earth-cube and the roundest one,
the dodecahedron, for the whole world/universe (pan).
In 4 dimensions there are 6 generalized Platonic solids, in 5 and more
dimensions always only 3, namely generalizations of tetrahedron, cube
and octahedron.
* Empedocles is often credited for having first mentioned the four
elements in the following fragment (DK31B6):
[image]
It speaks of "four roots" at the origin of all and then lists four
gods with some attributes, in this order: Zeus (flashing/shining),
Hera (live-giving/-bearing), Aidoneus (no attributes), Nestis
(moisture, tears/dew). Interpretation and attribution to elements is
controversial and has already been so in antiquity; start maybe at
John Opsopaus (see links).
If you take Empedocles literally, Zeus would maybe most immediately be
the root of fire, because of his attributes and because he creates
lightning, Hera the root of earth, because she bears (creates) a
child, Nestis the root of water, because of dew and tears (rain?).
This would leave Aidoneus as the root of air, which seems rather
unexpected at first. Aidoneus is a variant of Aides (Hades) since at
least Homer, and maybe most likely means "unseen" or "invisible". In
Plato's Cratylus Socrates proposes "knowledge of all noble things"
instead. In any case, air and knowledge are typically invisible, and
death arguably kills everything except an immortal, invisible soul,
which then dwells in the underworld, in Hades.
Still, so far Hades-air seems not to be most obvious fit, but maybe
still clear enough for a secretly initiated reader in antiquity? Note
that Aidoneus is the only one listed without explicit attributes, so
maybe his name itself is the attribute, and the list of contemporary
deities served also to veil a secret "oath" to the four elements and
related medical traditions?
The Hippocratic Oath in its oldest preserved form also starts with
four names: "I swear by Apollo the healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia,
by Panacea, [...]". The sun god Apollon would maybe be most strongly
associated with fire, his son Asclepius as a wise doctor with air, his
daughter Hygieia with water, as she is often shown with a snake that
drinks from a bowl in her hands (and with hygiene, of course, which
often involves liquids for disinfection), and Panacea, another of
Asclepius' five daughters, with earth, as she used to heal with
plants. Did doctors implicitly take an oath on the four elements, more
so than on the explicitly named gods or saints?
The order of elements in the oath would thus be Aristoteles' ordering
from light to heavy, while Empedocles' order would remind maybe more
of the myth of Dionysos, who was born first from fire (Zeus in form of
lightning), then from earth (Zeus' thigh), then from water (chopped to
pieces, cooked and put back together), then from air (struck with
madness), finally to be reborn as arguably a "higher octave" of Zeus,
as the fifth element, also symbolized by wearing a lion's pelt? The
zodiac starts with fire (Aries), then follow earth, air, water, and
then fire again, in the fifth sign, Leo.
The myth of Dionysos reminds also of ancient Egyptian myths around
Osiris, Isis, their dismembered son Horus, and Seth, or of ancient
Egyptian creation myths, like the one of Heliopolis, where there
appears to be a sequence water-fire-air/water-earth/heaven-..., which
also resembles Hesiod's description of how the world came to be, and
creation myths world-wide. In such myths, elements are usually
automatically listed in a sequence, as later by Aristotle by lightness
or in a circle.
To ancient Greeks, the ancient Egyptians were apparently sort of like
the ancient Greeks in modern perception, an admired ancient culture.
It appears that the ancient Egyptians might have kept things more
secret than the Greeks in their time, maybe only passing it on from
master to pupil shaman?
Finally, as a teaser, note that the pyramids have five corners, an
earthly base of four, plus one on top.
--
i ching
All cultures seem to know some kinds of elements, but let me consider
the 8 trigrams of the Chinese Book of Changes, the I Ching or Yijing.
☰ heaven, strong, creative, father
☷ earth, devoted/yielding, receptive, mother
☳ thunder, inciting movement, arousing, 1st son
☵ water, dangerous, abysmal, 2nd son
☶ mountain, resting, keeping still, 3rd son
☴ wind/wood, penetrating, gentle, 1st daughter
☲ fire, light-giving, clinging, 2nd daughter
☱ lake, joyful, joyous, 3rd daughter
They seem to resemble Greek elements in pairs, namely heaven-wind (air),
earth-mountain, fire-thunder and water-lake. Let me rearrange them into
another table:
☰ heaven air rests male
☴ wind air moves female
☶ mountain earth rests male
☷ earth earth moves female
☲ fire fire rests female
☳ thunder fire moves male
☱ lake water rests female
☵ water water moves male
Interestingly, the trigrams that correspond to the Greek elements, i.e.
resting air and earth, moving fire and water, are exactly the male
trigrams.
Let me map each trigram to the result of a transition between two
elements in Aristotle's circle of the elements, ending with the
corresponding element and starting with a male element (fire or air) for
the male trigrams (father and sons) and with a female element (water or
earth) for the female trigrams (mother and daughters):
[image]
The trigrams seem to fit closely: Thunder as fire that has suddenly come
down as lightning from the sky (air), in contrast to fire steadily
clinging to the matter (earth) it burns; wind as air that gently
evaporated from water, in contrast to gases from a fire risen to heaven;
a lake as water sprung from sources (earth), in contrast to water fallen
down as rain from the sky (air); a mountain as earth solidified from
lava (fire), in contrast to softly yielding earth from sediments
deposited by water.
☰ heaven air ← fire rests male
☴ wind air ← water moves female
☶ mountain earth ← fire rests male
☷ earth earth ← water moves female
☲ fire fire ← earth rests female
☳ thunder fire ← air moves male
☱ lake water ← earth rests female
☵ water water ← air moves male
This arrangement is none of the two traditionally known ones, more
similar to Earlier Heaven than Later Heaven:
[image]
More symmetries, some similar to Earlier Heaven:
* Daughters and sons are arranged from father to first to second to
third children, and finally to mother.
* Opposite trigrams in the circle mirror each other if you mirror each
trigram at the middle line (i.e. swap first and third line) and invert
all lines (yin↔yang).
* Trigrams that transform to or from outer elements have a broken (yin)
line in the middle, which would fit with outer elements being harder
and more brittle, breaking more easily.
* Excluding the middle line, between adjacent trigrams in the circle
exactly one line is inverted (yin↔yang).
leads
* The I Ching is a divination system. By tossing coins or drawing yarrow
sticks, one determines hexagrams (two trigrams) that are given
meanings in the text of the I Ching. More precisely, the oracle
results in two hexagrams, describing the evolution of the current
situation to a new situation.
* This new arrangement of the 8 trigrams and 4 elements in a circle was
inspired by a passage in the introduction of Richard Wilhelm's
translation of the I Ching or Book of Changes (translated from German
to English by Cary F. Baynes):
"The eight trigrams are symbols standing for changing transitional
states; they are images that are constantly undergoing change.
Attention centers not on things in their state of being - as is
chiefly the case in the Occident - but upon their movements in change.
The eight trigrams therefore are not representations of things as such
but of their tendencies in movement."
So the 8 Chinese trigrams would express essentially the same elements
and changes in a circle as the 4+1 Greek elements, i.e. the fifth
element would be contained in the trigrams.
* Also in terms of bind/release, the trigrams seem to fit closely: Fire,
heaven, lake and mountain hold their element in place; thunder, wind,
water and earth let it go.
* No common historical roots are known, nor any roots of the above
arrangement of trigrams in Chinese history, so did both cultures
mirror nature independently, even unknowingly?
Interpreting earth-water-air as the states of matter solid-fluid-gas
and fire as a chemical reaction or physical phenomenon that produces
light and maybe heat, the elements could be considered what is most
commonly encountered in nature.
The elements represent also elementary needs: air to breathe, water to
drink, food to eat, sunlight and fire as energy.
Conversely, the very nature of oracles is that things are connected,
maybe also globally to some degree?
* In the yarrow stalk method of consulting the I Ching, one starts with
50 yarrow stalks and initially puts one away. This seems to be a
reference to the cycles of moon and sun, because 50+49 lunar months
are only about 1.5 days short of 8 solar years, which is also why the
Olympics in ancient Greece were held alternatively every 50 and 49
lunar months. Hence the moon advances about 3/8 of the circle every
solar year, drawing an eight-pointed star over eight years, as well as
appearing in eight different lunar phases.
[image]
Venus never separates more than about 1/8 of the circle from the sun
and appears to stand still 5 times in 8 years, drawing a pentagram
that shifts only slightly between cycles. The Mesopotamian goddess of
love Ishtar was associated with Venus, usually depicted as an
eight-pointed star and sometimes shown together with sun and moon.
The yin-yang symbol ☯ reminds of moon phases.
* The five Chinese Wu Xing, water, metal, fire, wood and earth, which
are often called "elements" in the West, but literally mean
"moving", stand most immediately for the five planets visible to the
naked eye, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, while the "Four
Symbols", black turtle, white tiger, vermillion bird and azure dragon
stand for the four directions and for constellations in the sky (each
for a group of 7 of the 28 mansions). Together with the I Ching maybe
standing for sun and moon, this would complete the sky and what it was
believed to reflect down on earth.
* In the five Wu Xing, earth often has a somewhat central role,
surrounded by things that emerge from it and go back to it: water from
springs, fire from volcanoes, wood growing from earth and metal mined
from it; four very useful ingredients for humans to shape their
worlds, like using fire to smelt ore into metal tools, which can then
be used to cut wood into houses, furniture, bows, plows, water wheels,
etc.
* In the Chinese zodiac, four star signs are assigned to earth, arranged
in a cross, and in the four sectors in between, the two star signs
there are assigned to water, metal, fire and wood, respectively. This
reminds a lot of Aristotle's circle with trigrams above, so maybe the
Wu Xing earth would correspond to the static Greek elements and the
other four Wu Xing to the trigrams of the I Ching for the
corresponding transformation? Can this be identified in the attributes
of the star signs of the Chinese zodiac?
* Is the association of trigrams with elements and their changes also
closely mirrored in the hexagrams and their changes?
* When consulting the I Ching as an oracle, the different lines are
assigned the numbers 6 to 9:
6 old (changing) yin - - to --- -x-
7 new (unchanging) yang --- to --- ---
8 new (unchanging) yin - - to - - - -
9 old (changing) yang --- to - - -o-
These numbers are also associated with the Wu Xing and derived from 5
(earth) plus 1 to 4 (water, fire, wood, metal), see the Yellow River
Map, e.g. in Wilhelm/Baynes.
As a different approach, let me number the elements in Aristotle's
circle as 1-2-3-4, starting a priori with any element and going in
either direction of the circle. Now, map transformations of elements
to the sum of the three elements involved, 1+2+3 = 6, 2+3+4 = 9, 3+4+1
= 8 and 4+1+2 = 7, where the element in the middle is the one that is
transformed.
This gives also the numbers from 6 to 9 and note that new yin and yang
are obtained for the sequences that cross from 4 to 1, i.e. into a new
cycle.
Let me number the elements 1-fire, 2-air, 3-water, 4-earth (starting
with the lightest element according to Aristotle):
6 transformation of air 36 = 6 x 6 Stratagems
7 transformation of fire 49 = 7 x 7 Qixi (Ch'i?)
8 transformation of earth 64 = 8 x 8 I Ching
9 transformation of water 81 = 9 x 9 Tao Te Ching
This fits astonishingly well with contemporary Western astrological
views of the elements. The 36 Stratagems provide stratagems to use in
politics and war, which fits well with air as conscious planning mind.
The I Ching yields a priori images of changes in the outer, material
world, the element earth, which are then interpreted in a more
detached way. The Tao Te Ching, which comes in 81 sections, often has
something that flows like water. Besides the 50/49 yarrow stalks,
there is the Qixi Festival on the 7th day of the 7th month of the year
when magpies mythologically build a bridge across the milky way to
briefly reunite two lovers, and ch'i (qì) stands for life energy and
breath (which reminds of pneuma), and is pronounced almost like the
word for 7 (qī) in Chinese.
In ancient China, fields in agriculture used to be divided into
squares of 9 = 3 x 3 fields, with 8 fields (earth) owned by individual
families around a central 9th field that belonged to all families and
contained the well (water).
[image]
* The most ancient Chinese oracles used bones (typically shoulder bones
of oxen) or turtle plastrons (the belly part of the turtle shell).
Holes were drilled and heated with a heat source from the back of the
plastron to produce cracks on the front, which were typically
T-shaped. Although many oracle bones and plastrons have been found and
the ancient writing can now be read to quite some degree, little seems
to be known about how cracks were interpreted. There seems to be no
direct evidence for an influence on the I Ching, so far.
A plastron consists essentially of 6 pairs of scutes (shields), anal,
femoral, abdominal, pectoral, humeral and gular, with a flexible hinge
between the first and the last 3 pairs of scutes, which reminds of the
structure of hexagrams.
Applying heat to a plastron can cause it to crack, to become broken.
Are yin and yang lines as broken (weak) resp. unbroken (strong) lines
in the I Ching thus related to more ancient oracles involving heat?
Heat dries up, makes brittle, so would a yang line correspond to no
crack emerging, because it was wet to start with, hence be considered
strong in the sense of resisting heat?
On the northern hemisphere, stars appear to rotate around the north
pole in the sky, the direction assigned to the turtle of the four
symbols. Is the turtle with its shell maybe a model of the world, with
the plastron standing for what is down on earth and the upper part of
the shell for the sky? And similarly lower and upper trigrams of the I
Ching?
The hexagons on the upper part of the shell could be seen to form 6
unbroken/yang lines (heaven) and the pairs of plastron scutes 6
broken/yin lines (earth).
[image]
* In Greek mythology, as early as in Hesiod's Theogony, Cronos and Rhea
had 3 sons and 3 daughters. Their parents were Ouranos and Gaia, which
mean heaven (or mountain) and earth. Zeus, the third son, was close to
his mother Rhea who tricked Cronos and hid Zeus from him, so that Zeus
grew up on mount Ida and after his revolution reigned on mount
Olympos. Just like the mountain trigram (3rd son) is close to the
earth trigram (mother) in the circle?
The mother might have been considered naturally closer to her youngest
children because they emerged last from her.
--
möbius
Let me arrange the circle of elements and trigrams onto a Möbius Strip
as follows (click below to zoom in):
[image]
Inner elements are placed on the inside of the strip, outer elements on
the outside. That way, the strip reminds of the supposed permeable
membrane between in and out, but with different elements touching: The
symbols for the moving elements fire and water touch on opposite sides
of the strip, coinciding perfectly, and the same is true for the resting
elements earth and air. All lines of the trigrams on one side of the
strip are mirrored by their inverted lines (yin ↔ yang) on the other
side, so that yin and yang are different sides of the same on the strip.
So, even though fire and water would touch, and maybe mirror each other
between in and out, they could not transform directly into each other,
only indirectly by going along the single surface of the strip via air
or earth.
[image]
leads
* In a harmonic oscillator, two kinds of energies are transformed into
each other. For example, for a mass on a spring, the energy in the
spring transforms into the kinetic energy of the moving mass and
vice-versa. This gives the motion of the oscillator four special
states, when either of the energies is extremal. And the motion
between these states is periodic, thus overall reminding of the circle
of elements.
However, the natural pairing of extremal states of a harmonic
oscillator is opposite states in the cycle, which naturally fits
rest/move in the elemental circle, but makes it hard to relate two
pairs of adjacent states to opposites like active/passive or in/out in
a natural way.
* Could a mathematical model of the elements as defined here grow into a
scientific way of doing metaphysics, as in Kant's Prolegomena to Any
Future Metaphysics That Will Be Able to Present Itself as a Science?
rest/move in/out passive/active
bind/release wet/dry cold/hot
soft/hard heavy/light
malleable/brittle dark/light
mixed/isolated female/male
collective/individual moon/sun
night/day
un-/conscious
Such a mathematical model, as useful as it could be, would be
essentially air, something that rests inside the mind.
* Aristotle considers four "causes" in Physics and Metaphysics, which
remind of the four elements. Matter reminds of earth, form of air,
primary source of fire and final goal of water.
* Is the female fire trigram a form of inner fire, emo mapped to some
form of eri, that is clinging to a dream, an idea, a wish despite all
outer hardness? Is the female earth trigram a form of inner earth, ero
mapped to some form of emi, something that can yield devotely to outer
hardness? Is the female lake trigram a form of outer water, emi mapped
to some form of ero, which brings calm to the outside world without
hardness? Is the female wind trigram a form of outer air, eri mapped
to some form of emo, free flowing mind and communication?
* Is the Chinese approach thus more balanced? Conversely, is the Greek
approach more likely to start new things, exactly because it is maybe
initially more imbalanced? Are both needed for 'full' balance? Is
there more?
* In Psychologische Typen (1921), C.G. Jung combines extra- and
introversion with implicitly the four elements, which he terms
thinking (air), feeling (water), intuition (fire) and sensation
(earth), into 8 psychological types, almost certainly already
implicitly inspired by the I Ching.
Memories, Dreams, Reflections (1961): "I first met Richard Wilhelm
[...] in the early twenties. In 1923 we invited him to Zürich [...].
Even before meeting him I had been interested in Oriental philosophy,
and around 1920 had begun experimenting with the I Ching." (Appendix
IV, recorded and edited by A. Jaffé, translated by R. and C. Winston)
Also in Psychologische Typen, Jung additionally categorizes thinking
and feeling as "rational" or "judging", intuition and sensation as
"irrational", but even writes:
"But I am prepared to grant that we may equally well entertain a
precisely opposite conception of such a psychology, and present it
accordingly. I am also convinced that, had I myself chanced to possess
a different individual psychology, I should have described the
rational types in the reversed way, from the standpoint of the
unconscious-as irrational, therefore." (A III 5, translated by H.G.
Baynes)
In that sense, what Jung calls "irrational" could also be considered
"realistic", as judging the world rather based on measurement outside
than on inner conceptions, just like in science, as opposed to e.g.
medieval Christian views, where looking at Jupiter's moons through
Galileo's telescope could apparently not have convinced people that
not everything revolves around earth. In astrology, rationality is
typically air, reality typically earth, but both air and water (which
is usually considered rather irrational and related to the
unconscious) have to do with judgment, which is maybe not so
astonishing, considering that eri and emi would be inner elements. In
my definition of the elements, the world consists a priori
symmetrically of both in and out, except that the observing self is
arguably observing rather from the inside out, and perceives and
judges the world based on all four elements.
So Jung would have been quite close in a way, which I might relate to
the astrological placement of his moon in Taurus in the 3rd house. In
any case, Jung's text is the first I know of to bring "in/out" near
"elements", with extra-/introverted and judging from within or
without. (I had taken a quick look at Jung's psychological types in
1998 or a bit later, but only discovered this when I took another look
on 28 Oct 2018.)
* Near the end of Apuleius' The Golden Ass (around 150 CE), Apuleius
encounters the goddess Isis at full moon at the sea shortly after
moonrise:
"Her many-coloured robe was of finest linen; part was glistening
white, part crocus-yellow, part glowing red and along the entire hem a
woven bordure of flowers and fruit clung swaying in the breeze. But
what caught and held my eye more than anything else was the deep black
lustre of her mantle. [..] It was embroidered with glittering stars on
the hem and everywhere else, and in the middle beamed a full and fiery
moon." (Chapter 17, translated by Robert Graves)
Astrologer Antiochus of Athens and physician Galenus of Pergamon
attributed colors resp. body fluids (humors) to elements around the
time Apuleius lived, based on older roots going back at least
partially to Hippocrates: white to water (phlegm, phlegmatic), black
to earth (black bile, melancholic), yellow to fire (yellow bile,
choleric) and red to air (blood, sanguine), the colors of Isis' dress
above, plus stars and moon for the round fifth element in the sky.
* In alchemy, also since about at least the same time, the transition of
materials toward what is now called the philosopher's stone was
believed to be from black via white (moon) and yellow (sun) to red,
i.e. earth-water-fire-air, which is roughly in order of lightness of
the elements and their relatively layered appearance on earth. It is
apparently also the order of elements in the four tasks that Venus
gives Psyche in an inner story in The Golden Ass, as I explore
elsewhere, see artemis. All of this has ancient Egyptian roots, with
Osiris (and his brother Seth), Isis and their son Horus, as well as
with ancient crafts of creating fake noble metals and gems.
* One of the oldest ancient Indian Upanishads, the Chandogya Upanishad
(ca. 1000 BCE), speaks of three elements, fire (red), water (white)
and earth (black):
"The red colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the original] fire;
the white colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the original]
water; the black colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the
original] earth. Thus vanishes from fire what is commonly called fire,
the modification being only a name, arising from speech, while the
three colours (forms) alone are true." (Part 6, Chapter 4, translated
by Swami Nikhilananda)
Why do these three colors red-white-black appear in so many cultures
as primary colors? Robert Graves links them to the moon and I guess he
is right, but why stereotypically the colors of the moon at night
instead of green, brown, blue, etc. of nature at daylight when there
is so much more color?
Maybe because the colors that remain when light gets dimmer would be
more fundamental? Moon, stars and sky at night? And also the colors of
a fire, humanity's own light source at night, independent of a full
moon: Colors that reflect light for the passive elements earth (black
coal) and water (white ashes), colors that create light for the active
elements air (red embers) and fire (yellow flames)?
Did ancient cultures maybe often not distinguish red and yellow as
separate colors? Only three elements first?
* Plato talks about colors in the Timaeus, Aristotle in On Sense and the
Sensible. Both start with black and white as basic colors, which is
scientifically correct in the sense that by selectively taking
frequencies out of the full spectrum of white, you get all colors,
including black and white.
There are three kinds of color sensors in the human eye, for red,
green and blue, sorted from low to high frequency. None triggered (no
light) is black, plus red gives red, plus also green gives yellow,
plus also blue gives white, hence a sequence black-red-yellow-white or
earth-air-fire-water.
* Is the Lakota "Medicine Wheel" so old that it already came to America
with immigrants walking across the Bering Sea at least 10'000 years
ago? The Yangshao culture "Xishuipo M45 Tomb" in China, which dates
back to the 4th millenium BCE, features the mosaic of a tiger opposite
the mosaic of a dragon, as constellations in the sky, exactly the
animals that are traditionally assigned to West and East in China.
My impression is that the more you go back in time, the more likely
"knowledge about elements" was something that only "shamans" had and
only secretly passed on to their pupils.
* In August 2015, I assigned Greek goddesses to pairs of elements and
moon phases, and tentatively flipped Athena and Hera in May 2018:
Artemis/Hecate to birth/death at new moon as fire around water, Hera
(and Clotho) to growth as a young woman or girl at the first quarter
as earth around air, Aphrodite (and Lachesis) to bloom as a mature
woman at full moon as water around fire, and Athena (and Atropos) to
withering as an old woman at the last quarter as air around earth.
Artemis/Hecate would thus contain both first and fifth element, and
elements would touch as on the Möbius Strip.
* Zhuangzi's famous butterfly dream:
"Once Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly, a fluttering
butterfly who felt at ease and happy and knew nothing of Chuang Tzu.
Suddenly he woke up: Then he was again really and truly Chuang Tzu.
Now I do not know whether Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly or
whether the butterfly dreamt that it was Chuang Tzu, even though there
is certainly a difference between Chuang Tzu and the butterfly. This
is how the change of things is." (translated by me from the Wilhelm
translation to German)
The same day I had first quoted the dream here, on the streets of
Zürich, two butterflies on a truck, 21 Sep 2016 at 13:34. White, red,
black, a little yellow, even a little circle and her.
(In Apuleius' encounter with Isis, it is left open whether he was
"just dreaming" or "it really happened".)
[image]
The image is by Elena Vizerskaya (Getty Images 108350631); I bought
the rights to use it, too, just to be safe.
* See Billy Culver's Energy Language website, which inspired me in
summer 2016 to reconsider old attempts to arrange elements and
trigrams on a Möbius Strip or an infinity symbol ∞ and whose style
influenced the graphics above, but in my feeling his images carry more
potential than that.
* (The walking cat of the metamorphosis section came to me at Delphi in
Greece on Tuesday, 4 September 2018 at about 13:09, ate some of my
food, a dry pretzel and salmon jerky, then, after a few burps (still a
kid) and playing a little, took a nap of about 20 minutes on my lap,
then left roughly in the direction of the Athena Pronoia temple, where
I had been a bit earlier. During these few minutes there were no
doubts what to do and felt so good, like having a child to care for.
Was the AC maybe even an oracle for the AC of π, with the moon maybe
late at glowing quincunxes, or early spring?)
[image]
--
evolutions
Some ways in which the idea presented earlier might evolve with time.
--
mixed feelings
The inner elements eri and emi are softer than the outer ones, which
suggests that they would mix more easily.
The idea is now that what appears outside as individual and separate
beings is unconsciously connected inside...
[image]
...and that these connections result in feelings that change for often
not obvious reasons (emi), while naming inner concepts allows to impose
some abstract calm (eri).
Astrology links water (emi) to feelings, love, music, art, religion, the
collective and/or individual unconscious, and more. Now, the idea of a
collective unconscious goes back to Jung, while it may in the end still
be so that such unconscious collective connections are created by more
Freudian individual unconsciouses, via subliminal channels in normal
day-to-day external interactions between beings.
But let me explore things in the Jungian picture first, as a
Gedankenexperiment, because it is initially easier, and because it
mirrors the initial assumption more directly.
How one feels at any moment would be a mixture of individual and
collective influences. Not that what other people think would be
directly accessible, just indirectly with regard to how one feels in a
particular situation, or how one feels regarding individual possible
next steps.
Individuals that are emotionally and physically close would likely have
the strongest influence on a person, but also large groups of people,
like same village, country, religion, etc., could together have a strong
influence.
Influences from a collective unconscious could go well beyond the sum of
what is in individual conscious minds. Since the collective unconscious
would effectively be a very large brain, consisting of many more brain
cells than any individual being, it might have a much more complex and
sophisticated mind than any conscious individual and it could know all
kinds of details about everybody.
Such a view of a collective unconscious would resemble the concept of
god or gods in many religions, and it would likely be fragmented into
smaller units at several scales, like families, countries, religions,
etc., each with its own collective feelings, plans, and so on.
Jung noticed that in dreams and in cultural creations some archetypal
patterns repeat. These archetypes might simply be part of the thoughts,
experiences and knowledge of the collective unconscious.
Precognition in dreams or art might simply be picking up collective
intentions that are only later realized and can be felt and dreamed
about already while the collective unconscious is only planning or
considering them.
How would the collective unconscious effectively direct the individuals
it consists of? Telling each and every one what to do at each moment
would likely not be possible, just like the conscious individual mind
would not be able to tell each of its nerve cells when to fire.
But maybe with a general concept like astrology, which creates a
balanced and relatively complete set of individuals, each with its own
approach to new problems? Faced with a particular problem, a Leo, for
example, would feel more like solving it in a "Leo way", due to
collective feedback, so that in any situation different approaches would
be tried by different individuals and a good solution would usually
emerge. Since astrology tries to reflect all possible approaches in a
structured way, the search space for solutions would usually be quite
complete.
In other words, a culture with a system like astrology would have an
evolutionary advantage in the sense of Darwin. Astrology would then not
necessarily need to have anything to do with planets and stars in the
sky, more so with relatively ancient beliefs about them.
Assuming the collective unconscious would extend to matter considered
inanimate, oracles like the I Ching or Tarot could really reveal some
intentions of the collective unconscious, maybe paired with emotional
feedback which parts of the response to focus on or how to interpret it.
If so, also astrology might a priori still have natural causes, direct
influences from planets and stars, collective feedback from the universe
itself.
However, there are some arguments that speak against astrology having
dominantly natural causes from the sky. There are different astrologies
in different cultures, each of which comes in different flavours and has
different schools of thought. Besides many small examples for a
detachment from actual constellations in the sky, the most prominent one
is Pluto in Western astrology.
Pluto was at its discovery in 1930 thought to be a planet that is about
as big as planet Earth. Over the following decades it first emerged that
Pluto is much smaller, consists mainly of ice and finally in the early
21st century that Pluto is rather part of a belt of objects in similar
orbits and with similar sizes. In 20th century astrology, however, Pluto
was attributed a major role, both in mundane events and personal fates.
In my perception, part of that view did reflect reality, so that it
seems most plausible to me that astrology is largely a cultural creation
of mankind that works by collective feedback.
Now let me come back to the initial question or to how something with
the properties of a collective unconscious could come about in view of
contemporary physics.
The most immediate explanation would be that there are direct connection
between brains, mediated by some kind of "waves". But this can largely
be excluded today, except maybe at close range, in the sense that any
explanation of that sort would require new physics.
So let me focus on known physics and try to look for the most simple and
obvious explanation. What I propose is that people simply mirror who and
what they encounter in their lives inside their brains.
People's brains would thus contain "copies" of everyone they know, most
prominently and precisely of their loved ones. What exactly the neural
networks would mirror would not be consciously available to individuals
nor would it likely be easy to analyze scientifically even if the full
structure was known. But it could in principle allow people to make
fairly accurate predictions about what their loved ones would do and
when. For example, one person could possibly think of the other one
almost exactly the moment that other person would have picked up the
phone to call.
In terms of network terminology, this would be a store and forward
network instead of one where information is propagated immediately.
leads
* Mirroring the outside world is such a central part of the human psyche
that it would seem likely that nature would try to make use of any
physical effect it could.
* Experimentally distinguishing different effects that could explain
such phenomena seems to be very difficult.
* Candidates would include entangled quantum states, as in the EPR
paradox, and self-similarity as in fractals.
There would be neither senders nor receivers in these views; sharing
would be fundamentally symmetric. Would maybe different people simply
look at the same things inside?
* See "Zeitzeugnisse" under artemis for my contributions of 2002 to some
possibly new physics related to this, which make additional very
specific predictions.
* Big data and deep learning could be used to find and analyze such
collective structures, including astrological ones.
* Science is based on some implicit, but fundamentally unprovable
assumptions, like that nature is more stupid than people and repeats
stoically given the same questions. Since numbers only come to be
after a measurement, it is difficult to compare a mathematical model
of the situation before measurement with reality. So, the "Veil of
Isis" may not be easy to lift, if at all, also related to e5, etc.
--
star signs
Star signs in the Western zodiac seem to reflect transitions between
elements within Aristotle's circle.
Fire signs seem to transform from earth via fire to air, while water is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is simply a fire that transforms wood (earth) to
smoke (air). Aries as a young fire has most earth, Leo most fire,
Sagittarius most air.
In psychological astrology a wound is a central theme for the two later
fire signs Leo and Sagittarius, namely for the fisher king in Perceval
and Chiron in mythology.
In the model that wound is simply the human body (earth) that is wounded
by the fire of life, as any human body must die one day. Only what is
learned in life can be formulated in words (air) and can thus be passed
on to later generations, thus becomes immortal in a way. So there is a
transformation from mortal body to immortal mind, or from animal via
man/king to god.
Learning and getting compassion—the element water that is missing in the
transformation of the fire signs—in the process is a vital goal for
older fire signs.
Air signs seem to transform from fire via air to water, while earth is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is a cloud (air), which emits both lightning (fire)
and rain (water). Gemini as young air has most fire, Libra most air,
Aquarius most water.
Paris, who is associated with Libra, chose Aphrodite's offering of love
and marriage with Helena, the most beautiful woman in the world, hence
love (water) and thus the possibility for the missing element earth in
the form of children as fruits of love. Similarly, the opening of
Pandora's Box, associated with Aquarius, symbolizes birth.
Water signs seem to transform from earth via water to air, while fire is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is a river with Cancer as a source and young river
emerging from the mountains, maybe from a glacier (earth), merging with
more and more rivers and becoming a stream as Scorpio (water) and
finally flowing into the sea as Pisces from where most water eventually
evaporates again (air), by the power of the sun (fire), the missing
element and goal for the water signs.
So, the transition is, like for the fire signs, from earth to air, but
this time for a passive, female element. The river that flows down to
the sea is more fated than fire, since it is passive, it cannot resist
the movement.
But the way up in the end towards light is important, like, for example,
for the crab that bit Heracles into his ankle while he was fighting the
Hydra in the swamps, and got its place in the sky as the constellation
Cancer.
Earth signs seem to transform from fire via earth to water, while the
missing element is air:
[image]
The archetypal image is a tree with Taurus focussing on the directly
visible, but short-lived beauties of the tree that grow with the power
of the sun (fire), Capricorn restraining himself to the parts of the
tree that persist across seasons and which keep it from falling down,
namely trunk and roots, which feed it with water and the substances
diluted in it, and Virgo in between, between beauty and fate.
It is this fate or necessity, which creates minimal structures like the
branches and roots of a tree, thus order, the abstract element air.
This solves the riddle that even though Virgo is often depicted as being
very concerned about order, many Virgos do not keep their lives and
homes in strict order. It is Virgo for whom order is an issue, for
Capricorn it is a given and for Taurus it is not that important, except
a bit, as Taurus is transforming from fire to earth.
Persephone, who is associated with Virgo, was collecting flowers as a
maiden, looking at the sunny (fire) side of life, but already starting
to look down to earth, starting to wonder about how things work, what
makes the flowers grow, etc., when the earth opened up, Hades abducted
her and she became his wife, the queen of the underworld.
For all elements transitions start with a dry element and end with a wet
one. This mirrors that often when one gets older, one realizes that
things are not so clearly and reliably what they appeared to be when
first encountered.
element transition missing image
fire earth→fire→air water fire
air fire→air→water earth cloud
water earth→water→air fire river
earth fire→earth→water air tree
Maybe some day it will be possible to synthesize most properties of the
star signs formally from the transition between the elements defined by
in/out and rest/move?
Libra, for example, learns from observation of motion outside (fire) and
inside (water). Since Libra's transition is towards water, the gift of
"inner vision" is given to Teiresias by Zeus and outer vision is reduced
by Hera, except for observing omens, which are arguably just outer
reflections of collective inner intentions.
leads
* For more detailed expositions, see the longer article Elementary star
signs under artemis or my book Elementary Star Signs (2018), which are
both also available in German.
The idea dates back to 2001 and was first published in 2002.
* The four tasks of Psyche in Apuleius' The Golden Ass seem to mirror
the same transitions very beautifully and precisely, in the order
earth-water-fire-air, with goals air-fire-water-earth.
* Are there similar elemental transitions in the Chinese zodiac?
--
artemis
The oddest thing of all, the thing that most strikes us when we embark
on a story is the total void spreading out before us. The events have
occurred and lie all around us in a continuous, formless mass without
beginning or end. We can start anywhere... - Věra Linhartová
avantgarde
Welcome
[pdf-en] Welcome to my garden...
[pdf-fr] Bienvenue dans mon jardin...
[pdf-de] Willkommen in meinem Garten...
[pdf-de] What is exactphilosophy?
I Ching
[pdf-en] Elemental changes in the I Ching?
[pdf-de] Elementare Wandlungen im I Ging?
Astrology
[pdf-en] Elementary star signs
[pdf-de] Elementare Sternzeichen
[pdf-en] Deep Learning and astrology
[pdf-de] Deep Learning und Astrologie
[pdf-en] How astrology might really work?
[pdf-de] Wie Astrologie wirklich funktionieren könnte?
[pdf-en] Birth charts of Switzerland and the USA
[pdf-de] Geburtshoroskope der Schweiz und der USA
[pdf-en] Sedna times?
Paradoxes
[pdf-en] Paradox of love
[pdf-en] Paradox of measurement
[pdf-en] Paradox of solar eclipses
[pdf-en] Paradox of decoherence
[pdf-en] Paradox of π?
Dug-up Facts
[pdf-en] Birth time of Caesar Rodney
[pdf-de] Geburtszeit von Caesar Rodney
[pdf-fr] Première mention de Lilith comme second foyer de l'orbite lunaire
[pdf-en] First mention of Lilith as second focal point of the lunar orbit
[pdf-de] Erste Erwähnung von Lilith als zweitem Brennpunkt der Mondbahn
[pdf-de] Dada und Duchamps Fountain
[pdf-en] Dada and Duchamp's Fountain
[pdf-fr] Dada et la Fontaine de Duchamp
[pdf-de] Original ideas in the book "Elementary Star Signs"
[pdf-en] Eigene Ideen im Buch "Elementare Sternzeichen"
Public Relations
[pdf-en] Teslacard Postcard Action 2010
[pdf-de] Teslacard Postkarten-Aktion 2010
[pdf-en] Mountain Astrologer ads
[pdf-de] Mountain Astrologer Anzeigen
[pdf-en] Delphi for Palm OS
[pdf-de] Delphi für Palm OS
Zeitzeugnisse
[pdf-en] Discoveries revisited
[pdf-en] Web archives
[pdf-en] First mentions
Art
[pdf-de] Die neugierige Statue
--
References
* Andreas Schöter. Bipolar Change. Journal of Chinese Philosophy. Volume
35, Issue 2, p. 297-317 (June 2008).
Abstract I reconsider the natural characterization of change and
non-change that arises from the algebraic approach: this sees change
as yang in contrast to nonchange, which is yin. Following a persuasive
example from Alain Stalder, rather than consider change solely in
contrast to non-change, I develop a formal characterization of
different forms of change considered relative to each other. This
extension allows the internal structure of a change to be made
explicit in a new way, bifurcating the change into yang parts and yin
parts. I call this extended definition of change bipolar change.
Links [Preprint] [Publication]
--
Books
This website in 2017 – all web pages plus the articles Elementary star
signs and Elemental changes in the I Ching? in English and German, as
well as some Zeitzeugnisse:
exactphilosophy.net 2017
Alain Stalder
Paperback, 168 pages, US Letter
Color
ISBN 978-3-906914-01-5
More info or buy:
Lulu Amazon Barnes & Noble
Google Books Artecat Alain Stalder
This website in August 2016 – all web pages plus the article Elementary
star signs in English and German:
exactphilosophy.net 2016
Alain Stalder
Paperback, 70 pages, A4
Black & white
ISBN 978-3-033-05801-9
More info or buy:
Lulu Amazon Barnes & Noble
Google Books
See artecat.ch for generally accessible books around ideas from this
website in English and German, and more.
--
Links
* Yi Jing Algebra
Mathematical approaches to the I Ching, by Andreas Schöter.
* Greek Elements
Detailed article by John Opsopaus; from ancient Greece to Jung.
* Artecat Alain Stalder
My tiny publishing company; books and more related to this website.
* Four Elements
Inspiring book by John O'Donohue; breath, tears, hearth and sphinx.
* Energy Language
Images speaking about elementary cycles and more, by Billy Culver.
exactphilosophy.net archive copy
exactphilosophy.net
Snapshot of core content (without "artemis" articles) of 1 Nov 2018.
Notable additions:
* A somewhat formal definition of "movement outside"
and generally the core content revisited ("way")
* Jung's psychological types and "in/out"
* Empedocles and the elements taken literally: Zeus as the root of
fire, Hera of earth, Hades of air and Nestis of water
* Artemis articles:
- Paradoxes (5 articles)
- How astrology might really work (also in German)
- USA/CH, Sedna, Original ideas in ...
© 2002-now Alain Stalder
--
Welcome
I present a way of looking at the world here. That way or idea is not
something that can be proven. But some of the fruits it contains might
be considered for tending to, grow and become part of existing systems
of thought.
Just click sequentially through all menu items on the left, like reading
chapters in a book, and take your time, or go to 'artemis' for every-
and nothing...
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zürich, Switzerland) and am doing this as a
hobby.
Alain Stalder
--
way
After defining elements from immediate perception of the world, inspired
by Kant and Schopenhauer, I relate these elements to physics, the
ancient Greek elements, and to the 8 trigrams of the Chinese I Ching.
--
space and time
Imagine that you have just now started to look at the world.
[image]
One of the first things that you notice is space. There is you and an
outside world that you can see, and you can see more than one thing.
What separates you and what you can see, and what separates the
different things that you see, is space in its most immediate
definition.
Then you also quickly notice that some things move and others do not.
This is time, again in its most immediate definition, as motion or being
at rest.
[image]
Things can rest or move outside and inside the mind. Thus there would a
priori be 4 different kinds of things: What moves outside, what rests
outside, what moves inside, and what rests inside. Let me call them
elements and give them the following names: emo, ero, emi and eri.
emo moves outside
ero rests outside
emi moves inside
eri rests inside
Using a camera, emo and ero might be defined as the difference between
two images taken shortly after each other. Differing pixels would be
emo, same pixels ero. For example, a ball that rolls down a slope would
itself not be emo as a physical object, but emo would be the area the
ball spawns between the two images (excluding the middle if the ball is
uniformly colored).
[image]
leads
Some literature quotes, ideas and different points of view. Always also
see 'artemis' for eventually articles that may expose some topics in a
more contemporarily amenable way.
* Immanuel Kant. The Critique of Pure Reason. 1787.
In the early chapters, Kant discloses that some observable things
cannot be isolated from the self, but instead appear to be themselves
a priori necessary for thinking and observation. These a priori
concepts include space and time in their immediate sense - the
structure in which things appear in the mind and seem to exist outside
of it.
* "By means of the external sense (a property of the mind), we represent
to ourselves objects as without us, and these all in space. Herein
alone are their shape, dimensions, and relations to each other
determined or determinable. [...] Space is not a conception which has
been derived from outward experiences. For, in order that certain
sensations may relate to something without me (that is, to something
which occupies a different part of space from that in which I am); in
like manner, in order that I may represent them not merely as without,
of, and near to each other, but also in separate places, the
representation of space must already exist as a foundation. [...] We
never can imagine or make a representation to ourselves of the
non-existence of space, though we may easily enough think that no
objects are found in it." (translated by J. Meiklejohn)
* "Time is not an empirical conception. For neither coexistence nor
succession would be perceived by us, if the representation of time did
not exist as a foundation a priori. [...] With regard to phenomena in
general, we cannot think away time from them, and represent them to
ourselves as out of and unconnected with time, but we can quite well
represent to ourselves time void of phenomena."
* If I can imagine something, is it then really inside of me? Isn't
there already a separation (space) between me and what I imagine? Such
an extreme definition of self or inside would mean that the self
cannot have any (consciously accessible) attributes, no memory etc.,
because any such attribute of the self would be something that can be
considered by the self and would thus, by definition, not be part of
the self...
* This definition of self reminds of the Tao ("way") in Taoism. Lao Tzu
starts the Tao Te Ching with "The Tao that can be Tao'ed
(trodden/spoken), is not the real (unchanging) Tao".
* The definition of emo as the difference between two images is from
September 2018. Before that I would often consider, say, a ball itself
(or at least its visible surface) as ero, as long as it would rest,
and as emo, when it would be rolling. That overall view still shows a
bit in the first drawing above.
The concept of a "ball" is a priori much more complex than comparing
two images, which becomes evident once you try to program computers to
recognize (3-dimensional) items on 2-dimensional images. How a concept
like a "ball" comes to be in the mind appears to require a lot of
interaction with the environment (typically quite early as a child),
and in the end it is philosophically not so clear whether a "ball" is
rather a natural thing, something that objectively exists, or rather a
useful cultural abstraction of reality, copied from others. See also
e.g. Kant or Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
The new definition of emo↔ero is more fundamental, even though it
reminds of the shadows in Plato's Cave. Thus it might a priori be
better suited for such a fundamental concept as elements are. But,
without having explored where different definitions lead, settling on
just one may be a bit early.
* How would rest/move be defined for other senses than vision?
How would eri and emi be measured inside? Would the only "objective"
way be to measure brain activity outside? Would that be fundamental
enough in this context?
Could the self (observer)4 be measured?
* Would a female observer also consider what is seen as not being part
of herself or would she rather tend to identify with what she sees?
(Is the own body part of the self? And lovers, family, friends, house,
garden, etc.?) In other words, is the distinction between in and out
hard or soft (gradual)?
* What about sleep, dreaming, trance, drunkenness? Why only have a fully
conscious observer?
--
metamorphosis
The next thing that one notices is that motion can start and stop, and
that changes outside and inside seem not to be independent of each
other. In other words, the elements change, maybe even metamorphose into
each other.
What causes or allows these changes? Whatever it is, it must be
something fundamental, like the four elements. So let me simply call it
the fifth element, e5.
Free will seems to be a part of e5. It is possible to lift a spoon and
then to throw it away, i.e. to get something outside that rests into
motion (ero→emo). However, free will cannot be identical to e5, as some
things are much harder to control (try lifting a tree) and things
transform all the time without conscious influence.
Freedom inside the mind seems larger than outside. It is much easier to
lift a tree in the mind, than a real tree. But let me tackle things from
a different angle: Outside on average more things rest than move, while
inside the mind, things are almost always more flowing.
For example, a tree is at rest in most situations, except for a little
movement of leaves and maybe branches. But if you close your eyes and
try to imagine a tree at rest, it will get very hard after a few seconds
not to deviate to other thoughts and to keep the tree at rest.
[image]
In conclusion, on average outside activity is needed to get things
moving, while inside activity is needed to keep things at rest. More
abstractly, emo and eri are thus active, ero and emi are passive. Also,
what is outside resists motion on average more than what is inside. So
emo and ero are hard (out), emi and eri are soft (in). What moves
usually does so in various directions. Hence what rests appears to bind,
what moves appears to release.
emo moves outside active hard release
ero rests outside passive hard bind
emi moves inside passive soft release
eri rests inside active soft bind
e5 transforms the above elements
If you leisurely observe a scene outside, like at the beach, usually
most things will be resting, but there will be some movement. If you
then close your eyes, in my experience, what will be immediately visible
after closing your eyes will be the few things that moved, but frozen in
movement, hence apparently a transition emo→eri, a transition in which
activity is preserved.
[image]
Accordingly, passivity outside would then yield passivity inside,
ero→emi. Actively created change outside, which more often means to get
something in motion than the other way round, usually needs active focus
inside first. Hence transitions in↔out would go both ways, emo↔eri and
ero↔emi. Motion outside can also come to be and stop without much
activity inside, like when an apple falls from a tree. Similarly, such
things can also happen inside without much activity outside. Hence there
would apparently also be transitions emo↔ero and emi↔eri. All in all,
apparently a circle ero↔emo↔eri↔emi↔ero, while other transitions would
at least be less frequent.
[image]
The elements could a priori interface in six ways: emo-ero, emi-eri,
emo-emi, ero-eri, emo-eri, emi-ero. Any interface between elements must
be unobservable, because otherwise it would be something that is
perceived inside or outside, i.e. it would be one of the four elements.
The same argument can be made for e5, of course.
Let me imagine an interface in-out as an infinitely thin membrane. And
imagine, say, a blob of ero at the interface. If it remained passive, it
could start to flow while permeating inside, becoming emi, or the other
way round, and similarly for emo and eri.
[image]
Since interfaces between elements would be invisible, just like e5, they
might a priori have an arbitrarily complex nature, so that the above
picture is a priori maybe just one of the simplest ways of seeing them.
leads
* If free will or the observing self is a part of e5, what is the rest?
Cause and effect, fate, destiny, the free will of others? Quantum
mechanics has relativized the first assumption somewhat, or maybe not.
* What property of the issue of free will or not leads to millions of
variations when thinking about it? Could it possibly even be literally
the effect of many "transformations" in the mind, even in circles,
whatever that may mean precisely?
* Freedom to lift a spoon does not automatically mean freedom of choice
whether to want to lift the spoon or not.
* The interface ero-emi could be seen as the arrangement of things
outside related to a mood, a flow of feelings inside.
* When I say that outside more things rest than move, I mean this in a
very specific sense: Relative macroscopic motion at time scales that
human beings can register.
At long time scales, all things move; microscopically everything is in
motion, as heat is nothing but random motion of atoms or molecules.
When I turn my head, all objects move, but relative motion between
them remains small.
* The present approach to nature is consequently centered on the human
perspective, on direct experience of nature. Modern science usually
differs from that by trying to pick a point of view from which a
problem is easy to describe.
The oldest example for this is astronomy that has been greatly
simplified by solar centered calculations instead of using many
arbitrary epicycles in geocentric calculations.
* Modern science is a very valuable companion for the present approach,
especially for helping to exclude naive mistakes.
* Can my observations about motion, activity and hardness outside and
inside be formalized and thus proven? How would such a mathematical
representation look like? What assumptions would it be based on?
* In any closed system, entropy, roughly a measure of disorder, can at
best remain constant, but usually it increases. With time, macroscopic
directed motion and structures decay into microscopic random motion,
which is, by definition, heat. Life manages to escape this fate by
operating in open systems, by exporting disorder into the environment.
That way, living beings can grow from microscopic seeds to complex
structures and animals can repeatedly create directed motion.
Since science considers the outside world to be mainly inanimate and
the mind to be located in a piece of organic matter, the brain, it
predicts that outside motion tends to disappear, while inside the
conscious mind has a hard time focusing on something, because lots of
mostly unconscious activity in the brain keeps stirring things up.
Science is thus essentially compatible with the considerations
presented so far, except for science's qualitative notion that
creating motion inside the mind is active, requires energy, like
outside. This might, however, simply be due to the viewpoint of
science, which only considers facts in the outer, material world and
might thus not be able to describe inner processes as experienced from
the inside...
* In meditation, calmness of the mind (eri) is often sought by actively
focussing the mind on something, thus reducing emi.
* In daily life, the outer world seems often bigger and stronger than
the inner one. If you look at a bicycle and then close your eyes, you
can quite quickly imagine the bicycle in your mind, but if you then
imagine, say, that you add wings, and open your eyes again, you will
usually not see a winged bicycle.
Conversely, you can usually make everything outside disappear by just
closing your eyes ("turn black", ero), or you can turn your head or
walk away, so that the influence on what one sees outside is
immediately very strong in that sense.
Adding wings to a bicycle outside is still possible, but harder,
because the outer world is harder. It requires several steps involving
eri (planning, focussing), which then lead, via emo, and to a
different arrangement of ero, a winged bicycle.
--
greek philosophy
Aristotle defines elements to be composed of properties that can be felt
by touching. He uses two pairs of opposites, hot-cold and wet-dry, to
define four elements, which he names fire, earth, water and air. And he
identifies wet-dry with soft-hard, viscous-brittle and smooth-rough.
Unlike later the Stoics, he does not consistently identify hot-cold with
active-passive and light-heavy. If you do, you get:
fire hot (active) dry (hard) emo
earth cold (passive) dry (hard) ero
water cold (passive) wet (soft) emi
air hot (active) wet (soft) eri
Aristotle defines a fifth element as immutable, moving only in circles
and existing only in space, while the other four elements move linearly.
And he also arranges the four elements essentially in a circle in which
they transform into each other by flipping one of hot↔cold or wet↔dry at
each transition. The shared theme of a circle links the transformation
of elements to the fifth element.
[image]
This yields a one-to-one correspondence to my previous definition of the
elements, including the same circle.
leads
* Aristotle. On Generation and Corruption. Around 350 BCE.
* "Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of perceptible
body; and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to 'tangible', and
'tangible' is that of which the perception is touch; it is clear that
not all the contrarieties constitute 'forms' and 'originative sources'
of body, but only those which correspond to touch." (Book II,
translated by H. Joachim)
* "From moist and dry are derived (iii) the fine and coarse, viscous and
brittle, hard and soft, and the remaining tangible differences. For
(a) since the moist has no determinate shape, but is readily adaptable
and follows the outline of that which is in contact with it, it is
characteristic of it to be 'such as to fill up'. Now 'the fine' is
'such as to fill up'. For 'the fine' consists of subtle particles; but
that which consists of small particles is 'such as to fill up',
inasmuch as it is in contact whole with whole-and 'the fine' exhibits
this character in a superlative degree. Hence it is evident that the
fine derives from the moist, while the coarse derives from the dry.
Again (b) 'the viscous' derives from the moist: for 'the viscous'
(e.g. oil) is a 'moist' modified in a certain way. 'The brittle', on
the other hand, derives from the dry: for 'brittle' is that which is
completely dry-so completely, that its solidification has actually
been due to failure of moisture. Further (c) 'the soft' derives from
the moist. For 'soft' is that which yields to pressure by retiring
into itself, though it does not yield by total displacement as the
moist does-which explains why the moist is not 'soft', although 'the
soft' derives from the moist. 'The hard', on the other hand, derives
from the dry: for 'hard' is that which is solidified, and the
solidified is dry."
* "The elementary qualities are four [...]. Hence it is evident that the
'couplings' of the elementary qualities will be four: hot with dry and
moist with hot, and again cold with dry and cold with moist. [...]
Fire is hot and dry, whereas Air is hot and moist (Air being a sort of
aqueous vapour); and Water is cold and moist, while Earth is cold and
dry."
* Aristotle arranges the elements in a cycle fire-air-water-earth:
"Thus (i) the process of conversion will be quick between those which
have interchangeable 'complementary factors', but slow between those
which have none. The reason is that it is easier for a single thing to
change than for many. Air, e.g. will result from Fire if a single
quality changes: for Fire, as we saw, is hot and dry while Air is hot
and moist, so that there will be Air if the dry be overcome by the
moist. Again, Water will result from Air if the hot be overcome by the
cold: for Air, as we saw, is hot and moist while Water is cold and
moist, so that, if the hot changes, there will be Water. So too, in
the same manner, Earth will result from Water and Fire from Earth,
since the two 'elements' in both these couples have interchangeable
'complementary factors'. For Water is moist and cold while Earth is
cold and dry-so that, if the moist be overcome, there will be Earth:
and again, since Fire is dry and hot while Earth is cold and dry, Fire
will result from Earth if the cold pass-away."
It appears that Aristotle excludes other transitions, because why else
would they be slower if not because they would have to take place in
sequence as two transitions along the circle?
* Some fragments of Heraclitus suggest the same circle, namely DK B76
"fire's death is air's birth, and air's death is water's birth" and
B36 "psyche's death is water's birth, water's death is earth's birth,
from earth comes water, from water comes psyche", if psyche (or soul)
is identified with air. But knowledge of Heraclitus is based on
fragmentary quotes from later authors like the ones above. Fragment
B31 describes a transformation from fire to sea (water?) and says that
sea is made of equal parts of earth and whirlwind (air?); fragment B90
suggests that he considered fire the primary substance.
Similarly, there have been many views by different philosophers, some
of which are mentioned further below.
* In On Generation and Corruption, Aristotle considers light-heavy not
to be an attribute of any specific elements:
"(i) heavy and light are neither active nor susceptible. Things are
not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon, or suffer action
from, other things. But the 'elements' must be reciprocally active and
susceptible, since they 'combine' and are transformed into one
another. On the other hand (ii) hot and cold, and dry and moist, are
terms, of which the first pair implies power to act and the second
pair susceptibility."
But in On the Heavens, he considers air and fire as light and water
and earth as heavy, in the order earth-water-air-fire, and postulates
the existence of an immutable fifth element that dominates in the sky,
is neither light nor heavy and moves in circles, while the first four
elements move linearly:
"[...] all locomotion, as we term it, is either straight or circular
or a combination of these two, which are the only simple movements.
[...] Now revolution about the centre is circular motion, while the
upward and downward movements are in a straight line, 'upward' meaning
motion away from the centre, and 'downward' motion towards it. [...]
For if the natural motion is upward, it will be fire or air, and if
downward, water or earth. [...] circular motion is necessarily
primary. For the perfect is naturally prior to the imperfect, and the
circle is a perfect thing. [...] These premises clearly give the
conclusion that there is in nature some bodily substance other than
the formations we know, prior to them all and more divine than they.
[...] there is something beyond the bodies that are about us on this
earth, different and separate from them; and that the superior glory
of its nature is proportionate to its distance from this world of
ours. [...] things are heavy and light relatively to one another; air,
for instance, is light relatively to water, and water light relatively
to earth. The body, then, which moves in a circle cannot possibly
possess either heaviness or lightness. For neither naturally nor
unnaturally can it move either towards or away from the centre. [...]
this body will be ungenerated and indestructible and exempt from
increase and alteration [...] earth is enclosed by water, water by
air, air by fire, and these similarly by the upper bodies" (Book I,
translated by J. Stocks)
* Most things in the sky beyond clouds are round or cyclic: sun and moon
are round, planets, as well as stars during night and seasons, move
periodically in predictable cycles.
* The fifth element is also called ether or aether and quintessence.
Many different views of the fifth element and closely related concepts
have emerged over time.
Plato used the word aether to describe the purest form of air in the
Timaeus. But there is also a strong association of the sky with fire,
because stars and planets appear to emit light and the sun provides
heat, and also because fire was often considered the lightest of the
four elements.
The fifth element is generally considered "divine" because gods were
often believed to live in heaven. And it is often also seen as special
in other ways, like able to create life, or immortal like the soul or
maybe pneuma, or able to create matter and to hold it together, or
maybe identified by some alchemists with the philosopher's stone,
which was believed to be able to transform matter, like lead to gold,
etc.?
* Do such associations (historically founded or not) fit well with the
definition of e5 simply because they all keep going in circles around
the same questions?
* Aristotle appears to consistently link hot/cold to active and wet/dry
to passive, see quote from On Generation and Corruption above, or the
following quote from Meteorology:
"All this makes it clear that bodies are formed by heat and cold and
that these agents operate by thickening and solidifying. It is because
these qualities fashion bodies that we find heat in all of them, and
in some cold in so far as heat is absent. These qualities, then, are
present as active, and the moist and the dry as passive, and
consequently all four are found in mixed bodies." (Book IV, translated
by E. Webster)
* David Sedley writes in chapter 11 of The Cambridge History of
Hellenistic Philosophy (Cambridge University Press, 2000) that the
Stoic's identification of hot-cold with active-passive emerged from
medical tradition, from pneuma, breath, which was seen as a mixture of
fire and air, and mentions also that this identification was not so
clearly the only view of the Stoics in their time. A bit later
astrological views emerged that see fire and air as male, and water
and earth as female. See Vettius Valens's Anthologia in the 2nd
century CE and hints in earlier texts by Dorotheus of Sidon and Marcus
Manilius. These views have essentially prevailed, including in
medieval alchemy and up to contemporary astrology.
* According to Diogenes Laërtius in the third century CE, the Stoics
would have identified fire with hot, earth with dry, water with wet,
and air with cold (and dry):
"[...] the four elements are all equally an essence without any
distinctive quality, namely, matter; but fire is the hot, water the
moist, air the cold, and earth the dry - though this last quality is
also common to the air. The fire is the highest, and that is called
aether, in which first of all the sphere was generated in which the
fixed stars are set, then that in which the planets revolve; after
that the air, then the water; and the sediment as it were of all is
the earth, which is placed in the centre of the rest." (7. LXIX,
translated by C. Yonge)
The papyrus Anonymus Londinensis from about the first century CE says
essentially the same about Philistion (apparently Philistion of Locri,
a contemporary of Plato):
"Philiston thinks that we are composed of four 'forms', that is, of
four elements - fire, air, water, earth. Each of these too has its own
power; of fire the power is the hot, of air it is the cold, of water
the moist, and of earth the dry." (XX 24, translated by W. Jones)
According to David Hahm in The Origins of Stoic Cosmology (1977), this
view might have already been quite common among physicians in
classical times. Artistotle's texts about biology seem to implicitly
reflect that view quite clearly, like that air is inhaled cold and
exhaled hot (pneuma). Although there appear to be no contemporary
sources that would directly prove such an identification, Hahm's
detailed argumentation that the Stoics aimed for a unified view of the
elements across all fields seems to make this plausible.
In Stoic belief, the cosmos emerged from fire via air to water to
earth, and back (see Hahm for details), essentially along Aristotle's
circle of the elements.
* In Academica (45 BCE), Cicero lets Antiochus of Ascalon say the
following, influenced by Aristotle and the Stoics:
"Accordingly air [...] and fire and water and earth are primary; while
their derivatives are the species of living creatures and of the
things that grow out of the earth. Therefore those things are termed
[...] elements; and among them air and fire have motive and efficient
force, and the remaining divisions [...] water and earth, receptive
and 'passive' capacity. Aristotle deemed that there existed a certain
fifth sort of element, in a class by itself and unlike the four that I
have mentioned above, which was the source of the stars and of
thinking minds." (Book I 26, translated by H. Rackham)
* In contemporary astrology, fire is associated with imagination, air
with (abstract) thinking and communication, water with feelings, and
earth with pragmatic realism.
* In ancient Greek philosophy there was also the idea of matter
consisting of indivisible physical units (atoms). In Plato's Timaeus,
a model is presented that combines both views by associating the five
elements with the five Platonic solids: fire-tetrahedron,
air-octahedron, water-icosahedron, earth-cube and the roundest one,
the dodecahedron, for the whole world/universe (pan).
In 4 dimensions there are 6 generalized Platonic solids, in 5 and more
dimensions always only 3, namely generalizations of tetrahedron, cube
and octahedron.
* Empedocles is often credited for having first mentioned the four
elements in the following fragment (DK31B6):
[image]
It speaks of "four roots" at the origin of all and then lists four
gods with some attributes, in this order: Zeus (flashing/shining),
Hera (live-giving/-bearing), Aidoneus (no attributes), Nestis
(moisture, tears/dew). Interpretation and attribution to elements is
controversial and has already been so in antiquity; start maybe at
John Opsopaus (see links).
If you take Empedocles literally, Zeus would maybe most immediately be
the root of fire, because of his attributes and because he creates
lightning, Hera the root of earth, because she bears (creates) a
child, Nestis the root of water, because of dew and tears (rain?).
This would leave Aidoneus as the root of air, which seems rather
unexpected at first. Aidoneus is a variant of Aides (Hades) since at
least Homer, and maybe most likely means "unseen" or "invisible". In
Plato's Cratylus Socrates proposes "knowledge of all noble things"
instead. In any case, air and knowledge are typically invisible, and
death arguably kills everything except an immortal, invisible soul,
which then dwells in the underworld, in Hades.
Still, so far Hades-air seems not to be most obvious fit, but maybe
still clear enough for a secretly initiated reader in antiquity? Note
that Aidoneus is the only one listed without explicit attributes, so
maybe his name itself is the attribute, and the list of contemporary
deities served also to veil a secret "oath" to the four elements and
related medical traditions?
The Hippocratic Oath in its oldest preserved form also starts with
four names: "I swear by Apollo the healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia,
by Panacea, [...]". The sun god Apollon would maybe be most strongly
associated with fire, his son Asclepius as a wise doctor with air, his
daughter Hygieia with water, as she is often shown with a snake that
drinks from a bowl in her hands (and with hygiene, of course, which
often involves liquids for disinfection), and Panacea, another of
Asclepius' five daughters, with earth, as she used to heal with
plants. Did doctors implicitly take an oath on the four elements, more
so than on the explicitly named gods or saints?
The order of elements in the oath would thus be Aristoteles' ordering
from light to heavy, while Empedocles' order would remind maybe more
of the myth of Dionysos, who was born first from fire (Zeus in form of
lightning), then from earth (Zeus' thigh), then from water (chopped to
pieces, cooked and put back together), then from air (struck with
madness), finally to be reborn as arguably a "higher octave" of Zeus,
as the fifth element, also symbolized by wearing a lion's pelt? The
zodiac starts with fire (Aries), then follow earth, air, water, and
then fire again, in the fifth sign, Leo.
The myth of Dionysos reminds also of ancient Egyptian myths around
Osiris, Isis, their dismembered son Horus, and Seth, or of ancient
Egyptian creation myths, like the one of Heliopolis, where there
appears to be a sequence water-fire-air/water-earth/heaven-..., which
also resembles Hesiod's description of how the world came to be, and
creation myths world-wide. In such myths, elements are usually
automatically listed in a sequence, as later by Aristotle by lightness
or in a circle.
To ancient Greeks, the ancient Egyptians were apparently sort of like
the ancient Greeks in modern perception, an admired ancient culture.
It appears that the ancient Egyptians might have kept things more
secret than the Greeks in their time, maybe only passing it on from
master to pupil shaman?
Finally, as a teaser, note that the pyramids have five corners, an
earthly base of four, plus one on top.
--
i ching
All cultures seem to know some kinds of elements, but let me consider
the 8 trigrams of the Chinese Book of Changes, the I Ching or Yijing.
☰ heaven, strong, creative, father
☷ earth, devoted/yielding, receptive, mother
☳ thunder, inciting movement, arousing, 1st son
☵ water, dangerous, abysmal, 2nd son
☶ mountain, resting, keeping still, 3rd son
☴ wind/wood, penetrating, gentle, 1st daughter
☲ fire, light-giving, clinging, 2nd daughter
☱ lake, joyful, joyous, 3rd daughter
They seem to resemble Greek elements in pairs, namely heaven-wind (air),
earth-mountain, fire-thunder and water-lake. Let me rearrange them into
another table:
☰ heaven air rests male
☴ wind air moves female
☶ mountain earth rests male
☷ earth earth moves female
☲ fire fire rests female
☳ thunder fire moves male
☱ lake water rests female
☵ water water moves male
Interestingly, the trigrams that correspond to the Greek elements, i.e.
resting air and earth, moving fire and water, are exactly the male
trigrams.
Let me map each trigram to the result of a transition between two
elements in Aristotle's circle of the elements, ending with the
corresponding element and starting with a male element (fire or air) for
the male trigrams (father and sons) and with a female element (water or
earth) for the female trigrams (mother and daughters):
[image]
The trigrams seem to fit closely: Thunder as fire that has suddenly come
down as lightning from the sky (air), in contrast to fire steadily
clinging to the matter (earth) it burns; wind as air that gently
evaporated from water, in contrast to gases from a fire risen to heaven;
a lake as water sprung from sources (earth), in contrast to water fallen
down as rain from the sky (air); a mountain as earth solidified from
lava (fire), in contrast to softly yielding earth from sediments
deposited by water.
☰ heaven air ← fire rests male
☴ wind air ← water moves female
☶ mountain earth ← fire rests male
☷ earth earth ← water moves female
☲ fire fire ← earth rests female
☳ thunder fire ← air moves male
☱ lake water ← earth rests female
☵ water water ← air moves male
This arrangement is none of the two traditionally known ones, more
similar to Earlier Heaven than Later Heaven:
[image]
More symmetries, some similar to Earlier Heaven:
* Daughters and sons are arranged from father to first to second to
third children, and finally to mother.
* Opposite trigrams in the circle mirror each other if you mirror each
trigram at the middle line (i.e. swap first and third line) and invert
all lines (yin↔yang).
* Trigrams that transform to or from outer elements have a broken (yin)
line in the middle, which would fit with outer elements being harder
and more brittle, breaking more easily.
* Excluding the middle line, between adjacent trigrams in the circle
exactly one line is inverted (yin↔yang).
leads
* The I Ching is a divination system. By tossing coins or drawing yarrow
sticks, one determines hexagrams (two trigrams) that are given
meanings in the text of the I Ching. More precisely, the oracle
results in two hexagrams, describing the evolution of the current
situation to a new situation.
* This new arrangement of the 8 trigrams and 4 elements in a circle was
inspired by a passage in the introduction of Richard Wilhelm's
translation of the I Ching or Book of Changes (translated from German
to English by Cary F. Baynes):
"The eight trigrams are symbols standing for changing transitional
states; they are images that are constantly undergoing change.
Attention centers not on things in their state of being - as is
chiefly the case in the Occident - but upon their movements in change.
The eight trigrams therefore are not representations of things as such
but of their tendencies in movement."
So the 8 Chinese trigrams would express essentially the same elements
and changes in a circle as the 4+1 Greek elements, i.e. the fifth
element would be contained in the trigrams.
* Also in terms of bind/release, the trigrams seem to fit closely: Fire,
heaven, lake and mountain hold their element in place; thunder, wind,
water and earth let it go.
* No common historical roots are known, nor any roots of the above
arrangement of trigrams in Chinese history, so did both cultures
mirror nature independently, even unknowingly?
Interpreting earth-water-air as the states of matter solid-fluid-gas
and fire as a chemical reaction or physical phenomenon that produces
light and maybe heat, the elements could be considered what is most
commonly encountered in nature.
The elements represent also elementary needs: air to breathe, water to
drink, food to eat, sunlight and fire as energy.
Conversely, the very nature of oracles is that things are connected,
maybe also globally to some degree?
* In the yarrow stalk method of consulting the I Ching, one starts with
50 yarrow stalks and initially puts one away. This seems to be a
reference to the cycles of moon and sun, because 50+49 lunar months
are only about 1.5 days short of 8 solar years, which is also why the
Olympics in ancient Greece were held alternatively every 50 and 49
lunar months. Hence the moon advances about 3/8 of the circle every
solar year, drawing an eight-pointed star over eight years, as well as
appearing in eight different lunar phases.
[image]
Venus never separates more than about 1/8 of the circle from the sun
and appears to stand still 5 times in 8 years, drawing a pentagram
that shifts only slightly between cycles. The Mesopotamian goddess of
love Ishtar was associated with Venus, usually depicted as an
eight-pointed star and sometimes shown together with sun and moon.
The yin-yang symbol ☯ reminds of moon phases.
* The five Chinese Wu Xing, water, metal, fire, wood and earth, which
are often called "elements" in the West, but literally mean
"moving", stand most immediately for the five planets visible to the
naked eye, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, while the "Four
Symbols", black turtle, white tiger, vermillion bird and azure dragon
stand for the four directions and for constellations in the sky (each
for a group of 7 of the 28 mansions). Together with the I Ching maybe
standing for sun and moon, this would complete the sky and what it was
believed to reflect down on earth.
* In the five Wu Xing, earth often has a somewhat central role,
surrounded by things that emerge from it and go back to it: water from
springs, fire from volcanoes, wood growing from earth and metal mined
from it; four very useful ingredients for humans to shape their
worlds, like using fire to smelt ore into metal tools, which can then
be used to cut wood into houses, furniture, bows, plows, water wheels,
etc.
* In the Chinese zodiac, four star signs are assigned to earth, arranged
in a cross, and in the four sectors in between, the two star signs
there are assigned to water, metal, fire and wood, respectively. This
reminds a lot of Aristotle's circle with trigrams above, so maybe the
Wu Xing earth would correspond to the static Greek elements and the
other four Wu Xing to the trigrams of the I Ching for the
corresponding transformation? Can this be identified in the attributes
of the star signs of the Chinese zodiac?
* Is the association of trigrams with elements and their changes also
closely mirrored in the hexagrams and their changes?
* When consulting the I Ching as an oracle, the different lines are
assigned the numbers 6 to 9:
6 old (changing) yin - - to --- -x-
7 new (unchanging) yang --- to --- ---
8 new (unchanging) yin - - to - - - -
9 old (changing) yang --- to - - -o-
These numbers are also associated with the Wu Xing and derived from 5
(earth) plus 1 to 4 (water, fire, wood, metal), see the Yellow River
Map, e.g. in Wilhelm/Baynes.
As a different approach, let me number the elements in Aristotle's
circle as 1-2-3-4, starting a priori with any element and going in
either direction of the circle. Now, map transformations of elements
to the sum of the three elements involved, 1+2+3 = 6, 2+3+4 = 9, 3+4+1
= 8 and 4+1+2 = 7, where the element in the middle is the one that is
transformed.
This gives also the numbers from 6 to 9 and note that new yin and yang
are obtained for the sequences that cross from 4 to 1, i.e. into a new
cycle.
Let me number the elements 1-fire, 2-air, 3-water, 4-earth (starting
with the lightest element according to Aristotle):
6 transformation of air 36 = 6 x 6 Stratagems
7 transformation of fire 49 = 7 x 7 Qixi (Ch'i?)
8 transformation of earth 64 = 8 x 8 I Ching
9 transformation of water 81 = 9 x 9 Tao Te Ching
This fits astonishingly well with contemporary Western astrological
views of the elements. The 36 Stratagems provide stratagems to use in
politics and war, which fits well with air as conscious planning mind.
The I Ching yields a priori images of changes in the outer, material
world, the element earth, which are then interpreted in a more
detached way. The Tao Te Ching, which comes in 81 sections, often has
something that flows like water. Besides the 50/49 yarrow stalks,
there is the Qixi Festival on the 7th day of the 7th month of the year
when magpies mythologically build a bridge across the milky way to
briefly reunite two lovers, and ch'i (qì) stands for life energy and
breath (which reminds of pneuma), and is pronounced almost like the
word for 7 (qī) in Chinese.
In ancient China, fields in agriculture used to be divided into
squares of 9 = 3 x 3 fields, with 8 fields (earth) owned by individual
families around a central 9th field that belonged to all families and
contained the well (water).
[image]
* The most ancient Chinese oracles used bones (typically shoulder bones
of oxen) or turtle plastrons (the belly part of the turtle shell).
Holes were drilled and heated with a heat source from the back of the
plastron to produce cracks on the front, which were typically
T-shaped. Although many oracle bones and plastrons have been found and
the ancient writing can now be read to quite some degree, little seems
to be known about how cracks were interpreted. There seems to be no
direct evidence for an influence on the I Ching, so far.
A plastron consists essentially of 6 pairs of scutes (shields), anal,
femoral, abdominal, pectoral, humeral and gular, with a flexible hinge
between the first and the last 3 pairs of scutes, which reminds of the
structure of hexagrams.
Applying heat to a plastron can cause it to crack, to become broken.
Are yin and yang lines as broken (weak) resp. unbroken (strong) lines
in the I Ching thus related to more ancient oracles involving heat?
Heat dries up, makes brittle, so would a yang line correspond to no
crack emerging, because it was wet to start with, hence be considered
strong in the sense of resisting heat?
On the northern hemisphere, stars appear to rotate around the north
pole in the sky, the direction assigned to the turtle of the four
symbols. Is the turtle with its shell maybe a model of the world, with
the plastron standing for what is down on earth and the upper part of
the shell for the sky? And similarly lower and upper trigrams of the I
Ching?
The hexagons on the upper part of the shell could be seen to form 6
unbroken/yang lines (heaven) and the pairs of plastron scutes 6
broken/yin lines (earth).
[image]
* In Greek mythology, as early as in Hesiod's Theogony, Cronos and Rhea
had 3 sons and 3 daughters. Their parents were Ouranos and Gaia, which
mean heaven (or mountain) and earth. Zeus, the third son, was close to
his mother Rhea who tricked Cronos and hid Zeus from him, so that Zeus
grew up on mount Ida and after his revolution reigned on mount
Olympos. Just like the mountain trigram (3rd son) is close to the
earth trigram (mother) in the circle?
The mother might have been considered naturally closer to her youngest
children because they emerged last from her.
--
möbius
Let me arrange the circle of elements and trigrams onto a Möbius Strip
as follows (click below to zoom in):
[image]
Inner elements are placed on the inside of the strip, outer elements on
the outside. That way, the strip reminds of the supposed permeable
membrane between in and out, but with different elements touching: The
symbols for the moving elements fire and water touch on opposite sides
of the strip, coinciding perfectly, and the same is true for the resting
elements earth and air. All lines of the trigrams on one side of the
strip are mirrored by their inverted lines (yin ↔ yang) on the other
side, so that yin and yang are different sides of the same on the strip.
So, even though fire and water would touch, and maybe mirror each other
between in and out, they could not transform directly into each other,
only indirectly by going along the single surface of the strip via air
or earth.
[image]
leads
* In a harmonic oscillator, two kinds of energies are transformed into
each other. For example, for a mass on a spring, the energy in the
spring transforms into the kinetic energy of the moving mass and
vice-versa. This gives the motion of the oscillator four special
states, when either of the energies is extremal. And the motion
between these states is periodic, thus overall reminding of the circle
of elements.
However, the natural pairing of extremal states of a harmonic
oscillator is opposite states in the cycle, which naturally fits
rest/move in the elemental circle, but makes it hard to relate two
pairs of adjacent states to opposites like active/passive or in/out in
a natural way.
* Could a mathematical model of the elements as defined here grow into a
scientific way of doing metaphysics, as in Kant's Prolegomena to Any
Future Metaphysics That Will Be Able to Present Itself as a Science?
rest/move in/out passive/active
bind/release wet/dry cold/hot
soft/hard heavy/light
malleable/brittle dark/light
mixed/isolated female/male
collective/individual moon/sun
night/day
un-/conscious
Such a mathematical model, as useful as it could be, would be
essentially air, something that rests inside the mind.
* Aristotle considers four "causes" in Physics and Metaphysics, which
remind of the four elements. Matter reminds of earth, form of air,
primary source of fire and final goal of water.
* Is the female fire trigram a form of inner fire, emo mapped to some
form of eri, that is clinging to a dream, an idea, a wish despite all
outer hardness? Is the female earth trigram a form of inner earth, ero
mapped to some form of emi, something that can yield devotely to outer
hardness? Is the female lake trigram a form of outer water, emi mapped
to some form of ero, which brings calm to the outside world without
hardness? Is the female wind trigram a form of outer air, eri mapped
to some form of emo, free flowing mind and communication?
* Is the Chinese approach thus more balanced? Conversely, is the Greek
approach more likely to start new things, exactly because it is maybe
initially more imbalanced? Are both needed for 'full' balance? Is
there more?
* In Psychologische Typen (1921), C.G. Jung combines extra- and
introversion with implicitly the four elements, which he terms
thinking (air), feeling (water), intuition (fire) and sensation
(earth), into 8 psychological types, almost certainly already
implicitly inspired by the I Ching.
Memories, Dreams, Reflections (1961): "I first met Richard Wilhelm
[...] in the early twenties. In 1923 we invited him to Zürich [...].
Even before meeting him I had been interested in Oriental philosophy,
and around 1920 had begun experimenting with the I Ching." (Appendix
IV, recorded and edited by A. Jaffé, translated by R. and C. Winston)
Also in Psychologische Typen, Jung additionally categorizes thinking
and feeling as "rational" or "judging", intuition and sensation as
"irrational", but even writes:
"But I am prepared to grant that we may equally well entertain a
precisely opposite conception of such a psychology, and present it
accordingly. I am also convinced that, had I myself chanced to possess
a different individual psychology, I should have described the
rational types in the reversed way, from the standpoint of the
unconscious-as irrational, therefore." (A III 5, translated by H.G.
Baynes)
In that sense, what Jung calls "irrational" could also be considered
"realistic", as judging the world rather based on measurement outside
than on inner conceptions, just like in science, as opposed to e.g.
medieval Christian views, where looking at Jupiter's moons through
Galileo's telescope could apparently not have convinced people that
not everything revolves around earth. In astrology, rationality is
typically air, reality typically earth, but both air and water (which
is usually considered rather irrational and related to the
unconscious) have to do with judgment, which is maybe not so
astonishing, considering that eri and emi would be inner elements. In
my definition of the elements, the world consists a priori
symmetrically of both in and out, except that the observing self is
arguably observing rather from the inside out, and perceives and
judges the world based on all four elements.
So Jung would have been quite close in a way, which I might relate to
the astrological placement of his moon in Taurus in the 3rd house. In
any case, Jung's text is the first I know of to bring "in/out" near
"elements", with extra-/introverted and judging from within or
without. (I had taken a quick look at Jung's psychological types in
1998 or a bit later, but only discovered this when I took another look
on 28 Oct 2018.)
* Near the end of Apuleius' The Golden Ass (around 150 CE), Apuleius
encounters the goddess Isis at full moon at the sea shortly after
moonrise:
"Her many-coloured robe was of finest linen; part was glistening
white, part crocus-yellow, part glowing red and along the entire hem a
woven bordure of flowers and fruit clung swaying in the breeze. But
what caught and held my eye more than anything else was the deep black
lustre of her mantle. [..] It was embroidered with glittering stars on
the hem and everywhere else, and in the middle beamed a full and fiery
moon." (Chapter 17, translated by Robert Graves)
Astrologer Antiochus of Athens and physician Galenus of Pergamon
attributed colors resp. body fluids (humors) to elements around the
time Apuleius lived, based on older roots going back at least
partially to Hippocrates: white to water (phlegm, phlegmatic), black
to earth (black bile, melancholic), yellow to fire (yellow bile,
choleric) and red to air (blood, sanguine), the colors of Isis' dress
above, plus stars and moon for the round fifth element in the sky.
* In alchemy, also since about at least the same time, the transition of
materials toward what is now called the philosopher's stone was
believed to be from black via white (moon) and yellow (sun) to red,
i.e. earth-water-fire-air, which is roughly in order of lightness of
the elements and their relatively layered appearance on earth. It is
apparently also the order of elements in the four tasks that Venus
gives Psyche in an inner story in The Golden Ass, as I explore
elsewhere, see artemis. All of this has ancient Egyptian roots, with
Osiris (and his brother Seth), Isis and their son Horus, as well as
with ancient crafts of creating fake noble metals and gems.
* One of the oldest ancient Indian Upanishads, the Chandogya Upanishad
(ca. 1000 BCE), speaks of three elements, fire (red), water (white)
and earth (black):
"The red colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the original] fire;
the white colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the original]
water; the black colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the
original] earth. Thus vanishes from fire what is commonly called fire,
the modification being only a name, arising from speech, while the
three colours (forms) alone are true." (Part 6, Chapter 4, translated
by Swami Nikhilananda)
Why do these three colors red-white-black appear in so many cultures
as primary colors? Robert Graves links them to the moon and I guess he
is right, but why stereotypically the colors of the moon at night
instead of green, brown, blue, etc. of nature at daylight when there
is so much more color?
Maybe because the colors that remain when light gets dimmer would be
more fundamental? Moon, stars and sky at night? And also the colors of
a fire, humanity's own light source at night, independent of a full
moon: Colors that reflect light for the passive elements earth (black
coal) and water (white ashes), colors that create light for the active
elements air (red embers) and fire (yellow flames)?
Did ancient cultures maybe often not distinguish red and yellow as
separate colors? Only three elements first?
* Plato talks about colors in the Timaeus, Aristotle in On Sense and the
Sensible. Both start with black and white as basic colors, which is
scientifically correct in the sense that by selectively taking
frequencies out of the full spectrum of white, you get all colors,
including black and white.
There are three kinds of color sensors in the human eye, for red,
green and blue, sorted from low to high frequency. None triggered (no
light) is black, plus red gives red, plus also green gives yellow,
plus also blue gives white, hence a sequence black-red-yellow-white or
earth-air-fire-water.
* Is the Lakota "Medicine Wheel" so old that it already came to America
with immigrants walking across the Bering Sea at least 10'000 years
ago? The Yangshao culture "Xishuipo M45 Tomb" in China, which dates
back to the 4th millenium BCE, features the mosaic of a tiger opposite
the mosaic of a dragon, as constellations in the sky, exactly the
animals that are traditionally assigned to West and East in China.
My impression is that the more you go back in time, the more likely
"knowledge about elements" was something that only "shamans" had and
only secretly passed on to their pupils.
* In August 2015, I assigned Greek goddesses to pairs of elements and
moon phases, and tentatively flipped Athena and Hera in May 2018:
Artemis/Hecate to birth/death at new moon as fire around water, Hera
(and Clotho) to growth as a young woman or girl at the first quarter
as earth around air, Aphrodite (and Lachesis) to bloom as a mature
woman at full moon as water around fire, and Athena (and Atropos) to
withering as an old woman at the last quarter as air around earth.
Artemis/Hecate would thus contain both first and fifth element, and
elements would touch as on the Möbius Strip.
* Zhuangzi's famous butterfly dream:
"Once Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly, a fluttering
butterfly who felt at ease and happy and knew nothing of Chuang Tzu.
Suddenly he woke up: Then he was again really and truly Chuang Tzu.
Now I do not know whether Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly or
whether the butterfly dreamt that it was Chuang Tzu, even though there
is certainly a difference between Chuang Tzu and the butterfly. This
is how the change of things is." (translated by me from the Wilhelm
translation to German)
The same day I had first quoted the dream here, on the streets of
Zürich, two butterflies on a truck, 21 Sep 2016 at 13:34. White, red,
black, a little yellow, even a little circle and her.
(In Apuleius' encounter with Isis, it is left open whether he was
"just dreaming" or "it really happened".)
[image]
The image is by Elena Vizerskaya (Getty Images 108350631); I bought
the rights to use it, too, just to be safe.
* See Billy Culver's Energy Language website, which inspired me in
summer 2016 to reconsider old attempts to arrange elements and
trigrams on a Möbius Strip or an infinity symbol ∞ and whose style
influenced the graphics above, but in my feeling his images carry more
potential than that.
* (The walking cat of the metamorphosis section came to me at Delphi in
Greece on Tuesday, 4 September 2018 at about 13:09, ate some of my
food, a dry pretzel and salmon jerky, then, after a few burps (still a
kid) and playing a little, took a nap of about 20 minutes on my lap,
then left roughly in the direction of the Athena Pronoia temple, where
I had been a bit earlier. During these few minutes there were no
doubts what to do and felt so good, like having a child to care for.
Was the AC maybe even an oracle for the AC of π, with the moon maybe
late at glowing quincunxes, or early spring?)
[image]
--
evolutions
Some ways in which the idea presented earlier might evolve with time.
--
mixed feelings
The inner elements eri and emi are softer than the outer ones, which
suggests that they would mix more easily.
The idea is now that what appears outside as individual and separate
beings is unconsciously connected inside...
[image]
...and that these connections result in feelings that change for often
not obvious reasons (emi), while naming inner concepts allows to impose
some abstract calm (eri).
Astrology links water (emi) to feelings, love, music, art, religion, the
collective and/or individual unconscious, and more. Now, the idea of a
collective unconscious goes back to Jung, while it may in the end still
be so that such unconscious collective connections are created by more
Freudian individual unconsciouses, via subliminal channels in normal
day-to-day external interactions between beings.
But let me explore things in the Jungian picture first, as a
Gedankenexperiment, because it is initially easier, and because it
mirrors the initial assumption more directly.
How one feels at any moment would be a mixture of individual and
collective influences. Not that what other people think would be
directly accessible, just indirectly with regard to how one feels in a
particular situation, or how one feels regarding individual possible
next steps.
Individuals that are emotionally and physically close would likely have
the strongest influence on a person, but also large groups of people,
like same village, country, religion, etc., could together have a strong
influence.
Influences from a collective unconscious could go well beyond the sum of
what is in individual conscious minds. Since the collective unconscious
would effectively be a very large brain, consisting of many more brain
cells than any individual being, it might have a much more complex and
sophisticated mind than any conscious individual and it could know all
kinds of details about everybody.
Such a view of a collective unconscious would resemble the concept of
god or gods in many religions, and it would likely be fragmented into
smaller units at several scales, like families, countries, religions,
etc., each with its own collective feelings, plans, and so on.
Jung noticed that in dreams and in cultural creations some archetypal
patterns repeat. These archetypes might simply be part of the thoughts,
experiences and knowledge of the collective unconscious.
Precognition in dreams or art might simply be picking up collective
intentions that are only later realized and can be felt and dreamed
about already while the collective unconscious is only planning or
considering them.
How would the collective unconscious effectively direct the individuals
it consists of? Telling each and every one what to do at each moment
would likely not be possible, just like the conscious individual mind
would not be able to tell each of its nerve cells when to fire.
But maybe with a general concept like astrology, which creates a
balanced and relatively complete set of individuals, each with its own
approach to new problems? Faced with a particular problem, a Leo, for
example, would feel more like solving it in a "Leo way", due to
collective feedback, so that in any situation different approaches would
be tried by different individuals and a good solution would usually
emerge. Since astrology tries to reflect all possible approaches in a
structured way, the search space for solutions would usually be quite
complete.
In other words, a culture with a system like astrology would have an
evolutionary advantage in the sense of Darwin. Astrology would then not
necessarily need to have anything to do with planets and stars in the
sky, more so with relatively ancient beliefs about them.
Assuming the collective unconscious would extend to matter considered
inanimate, oracles like the I Ching or Tarot could really reveal some
intentions of the collective unconscious, maybe paired with emotional
feedback which parts of the response to focus on or how to interpret it.
If so, also astrology might a priori still have natural causes, direct
influences from planets and stars, collective feedback from the universe
itself.
However, there are some arguments that speak against astrology having
dominantly natural causes from the sky. There are different astrologies
in different cultures, each of which comes in different flavours and has
different schools of thought. Besides many small examples for a
detachment from actual constellations in the sky, the most prominent one
is Pluto in Western astrology.
Pluto was at its discovery in 1930 thought to be a planet that is about
as big as planet Earth. Over the following decades it first emerged that
Pluto is much smaller, consists mainly of ice and finally in the early
21st century that Pluto is rather part of a belt of objects in similar
orbits and with similar sizes. In 20th century astrology, however, Pluto
was attributed a major role, both in mundane events and personal fates.
In my perception, part of that view did reflect reality, so that it
seems most plausible to me that astrology is largely a cultural creation
of mankind that works by collective feedback.
Now let me come back to the initial question or to how something with
the properties of a collective unconscious could come about in view of
contemporary physics.
The most immediate explanation would be that there are direct connection
between brains, mediated by some kind of "waves". But this can largely
be excluded today, except maybe at close range, in the sense that any
explanation of that sort would require new physics.
So let me focus on known physics and try to look for the most simple and
obvious explanation. What I propose is that people simply mirror who and
what they encounter in their lives inside their brains.
People's brains would thus contain "copies" of everyone they know, most
prominently and precisely of their loved ones. What exactly the neural
networks would mirror would not be consciously available to individuals
nor would it likely be easy to analyze scientifically even if the full
structure was known. But it could in principle allow people to make
fairly accurate predictions about what their loved ones would do and
when. For example, one person could possibly think of the other one
almost exactly the moment that other person would have picked up the
phone to call.
In terms of network terminology, this would be a store and forward
network instead of one where information is propagated immediately.
leads
* Mirroring the outside world is such a central part of the human psyche
that it would seem likely that nature would try to make use of any
physical effect it could.
* Experimentally distinguishing different effects that could explain
such phenomena seems to be very difficult.
* Candidates would include entangled quantum states, as in the EPR
paradox, and self-similarity as in fractals.
There would be neither senders nor receivers in these views; sharing
would be fundamentally symmetric. Would maybe different people simply
look at the same things inside?
* See "Zeitzeugnisse" under artemis for my contributions of 2002 to some
possibly new physics related to this, which make additional very
specific predictions.
* Big data and deep learning could be used to find and analyze such
collective structures, including astrological ones.
* Science is based on some implicit, but fundamentally unprovable
assumptions, like that nature is more stupid than people and repeats
stoically given the same questions. Since numbers only come to be
after a measurement, it is difficult to compare a mathematical model
of the situation before measurement with reality. So, the "Veil of
Isis" may not be easy to lift, if at all, also related to e5, etc.
--
star signs
Star signs in the Western zodiac seem to reflect transitions between
elements within Aristotle's circle.
Fire signs seem to transform from earth via fire to air, while water is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is simply a fire that transforms wood (earth) to
smoke (air). Aries as a young fire has most earth, Leo most fire,
Sagittarius most air.
In psychological astrology a wound is a central theme for the two later
fire signs Leo and Sagittarius, namely for the fisher king in Perceval
and Chiron in mythology.
In the model that wound is simply the human body (earth) that is wounded
by the fire of life, as any human body must die one day. Only what is
learned in life can be formulated in words (air) and can thus be passed
on to later generations, thus becomes immortal in a way. So there is a
transformation from mortal body to immortal mind, or from animal via
man/king to god.
Learning and getting compassion—the element water that is missing in the
transformation of the fire signs—in the process is a vital goal for
older fire signs.
Air signs seem to transform from fire via air to water, while earth is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is a cloud (air), which emits both lightning (fire)
and rain (water). Gemini as young air has most fire, Libra most air,
Aquarius most water.
Paris, who is associated with Libra, chose Aphrodite's offering of love
and marriage with Helena, the most beautiful woman in the world, hence
love (water) and thus the possibility for the missing element earth in
the form of children as fruits of love. Similarly, the opening of
Pandora's Box, associated with Aquarius, symbolizes birth.
Water signs seem to transform from earth via water to air, while fire is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is a river with Cancer as a source and young river
emerging from the mountains, maybe from a glacier (earth), merging with
more and more rivers and becoming a stream as Scorpio (water) and
finally flowing into the sea as Pisces from where most water eventually
evaporates again (air), by the power of the sun (fire), the missing
element and goal for the water signs.
So, the transition is, like for the fire signs, from earth to air, but
this time for a passive, female element. The river that flows down to
the sea is more fated than fire, since it is passive, it cannot resist
the movement.
But the way up in the end towards light is important, like, for example,
for the crab that bit Heracles into his ankle while he was fighting the
Hydra in the swamps, and got its place in the sky as the constellation
Cancer.
Earth signs seem to transform from fire via earth to water, while the
missing element is air:
[image]
The archetypal image is a tree with Taurus focussing on the directly
visible, but short-lived beauties of the tree that grow with the power
of the sun (fire), Capricorn restraining himself to the parts of the
tree that persist across seasons and which keep it from falling down,
namely trunk and roots, which feed it with water and the substances
diluted in it, and Virgo in between, between beauty and fate.
It is this fate or necessity, which creates minimal structures like the
branches and roots of a tree, thus order, the abstract element air.
This solves the riddle that even though Virgo is often depicted as being
very concerned about order, many Virgos do not keep their lives and
homes in strict order. It is Virgo for whom order is an issue, for
Capricorn it is a given and for Taurus it is not that important, except
a bit, as Taurus is transforming from fire to earth.
Persephone, who is associated with Virgo, was collecting flowers as a
maiden, looking at the sunny (fire) side of life, but already starting
to look down to earth, starting to wonder about how things work, what
makes the flowers grow, etc., when the earth opened up, Hades abducted
her and she became his wife, the queen of the underworld.
For all elements transitions start with a dry element and end with a wet
one. This mirrors that often when one gets older, one realizes that
things are not so clearly and reliably what they appeared to be when
first encountered.
element transition missing image
fire earth→fire→air water fire
air fire→air→water earth cloud
water earth→water→air fire river
earth fire→earth→water air tree
Maybe some day it will be possible to synthesize most properties of the
star signs formally from the transition between the elements defined by
in/out and rest/move?
Libra, for example, learns from observation of motion outside (fire) and
inside (water). Since Libra's transition is towards water, the gift of
"inner vision" is given to Teiresias by Zeus and outer vision is reduced
by Hera, except for observing omens, which are arguably just outer
reflections of collective inner intentions.
leads
* For more detailed expositions, see the longer article Elementary star
signs under artemis or my book Elementary Star Signs (2018), which are
both also available in German.
The idea dates back to 2001 and was first published in 2002.
* The four tasks of Psyche in Apuleius' The Golden Ass seem to mirror
the same transitions very beautifully and precisely, in the order
earth-water-fire-air, with goals air-fire-water-earth.
* Are there similar elemental transitions in the Chinese zodiac?
--
artemis
The oddest thing of all, the thing that most strikes us when we embark
on a story is the total void spreading out before us. The events have
occurred and lie all around us in a continuous, formless mass without
beginning or end. We can start anywhere... - Věra Linhartová
avantgarde
Welcome
[pdf-en] Welcome to my garden...
[pdf-fr] Bienvenue dans mon jardin...
[pdf-de] Willkommen in meinem Garten...
[pdf-de] What is exactphilosophy?
I Ching
[pdf-en] Elemental changes in the I Ching?
[pdf-de] Elementare Wandlungen im I Ging?
Astrology
[pdf-en] Elementary star signs
[pdf-de] Elementare Sternzeichen
[pdf-en] Deep Learning and astrology
[pdf-de] Deep Learning und Astrologie
[pdf-en] How astrology might really work?
[pdf-de] Wie Astrologie wirklich funktionieren könnte?
[pdf-en] Birth charts of Switzerland and the USA
[pdf-de] Geburtshoroskope der Schweiz und der USA
[pdf-en] Sedna times?
Paradoxes
[pdf-en] Paradox of love
[pdf-en] Paradox of measurement
[pdf-en] Paradox of solar eclipses
[pdf-en] Paradox of decoherence
[pdf-en] Paradox of π?
Dug-up Facts
[pdf-en] Birth time of Caesar Rodney
[pdf-de] Geburtszeit von Caesar Rodney
[pdf-fr] Première mention de Lilith comme second foyer de l'orbite lunaire
[pdf-en] First mention of Lilith as second focal point of the lunar orbit
[pdf-de] Erste Erwähnung von Lilith als zweitem Brennpunkt der Mondbahn
[pdf-de] Dada und Duchamps Fountain
[pdf-en] Dada and Duchamp's Fountain
[pdf-fr] Dada et la Fontaine de Duchamp
[pdf-de] Original ideas in the book "Elementary Star Signs"
[pdf-en] Eigene Ideen im Buch "Elementare Sternzeichen"
Public Relations
[pdf-en] Teslacard Postcard Action 2010
[pdf-de] Teslacard Postkarten-Aktion 2010
[pdf-en] Mountain Astrologer ads
[pdf-de] Mountain Astrologer Anzeigen
[pdf-en] Delphi for Palm OS
[pdf-de] Delphi für Palm OS
Zeitzeugnisse
[pdf-en] Discoveries revisited
[pdf-en] Web archives
[pdf-en] First mentions
Art
[pdf-de] Die neugierige Statue
--
References
* Andreas Schöter. Bipolar Change. Journal of Chinese Philosophy. Volume
35, Issue 2, p. 297-317 (June 2008).
Abstract I reconsider the natural characterization of change and
non-change that arises from the algebraic approach: this sees change
as yang in contrast to nonchange, which is yin. Following a persuasive
example from Alain Stalder, rather than consider change solely in
contrast to non-change, I develop a formal characterization of
different forms of change considered relative to each other. This
extension allows the internal structure of a change to be made
explicit in a new way, bifurcating the change into yang parts and yin
parts. I call this extended definition of change bipolar change.
Links [Preprint] [Publication]
--
Books
This website in 2017 – all web pages plus the articles Elementary star
signs and Elemental changes in the I Ching? in English and German, as
well as some Zeitzeugnisse:
exactphilosophy.net 2017
Alain Stalder
Paperback, 168 pages, US Letter
Color
ISBN 978-3-906914-01-5
More info or buy:
Lulu Amazon Barnes & Noble
Google Books Artecat Alain Stalder
This website in August 2016 – all web pages plus the article Elementary
star signs in English and German:
exactphilosophy.net 2016
Alain Stalder
Paperback, 70 pages, A4
Black & white
ISBN 978-3-033-05801-9
More info or buy:
Lulu Amazon Barnes & Noble
Google Books
See artecat.ch for generally accessible books around ideas from this
website in English and German, and more.
--
Links
* Yi Jing Algebra
Mathematical approaches to the I Ching, by Andreas Schöter.
* Greek Elements
Detailed article by John Opsopaus; from ancient Greece to Jung.
* Artecat Alain Stalder
My tiny publishing company; books and more related to this website.
* Four Elements
Inspiring book by John O'Donohue; breath, tears, hearth and sphinx.
* Energy Language
Images speaking about elementary cycles and more, by Billy Culver.
exactphilosophy.net
Snapshot of core content (without "artemis" articles) of 1 Nov 2018.
Notable additions:
* A somewhat formal definition of "movement outside"
and generally the core content revisited ("way")
* Jung's psychological types and "in/out"
* Empedocles and the elements taken literally: Zeus as the root of
fire, Hera of earth, Hades of air and Nestis of water
* Artemis articles:
- Paradoxes (5 articles)
- How astrology might really work (also in German)
- USA/CH, Sedna, Original ideas in ...
© 2002-now Alain Stalder
--
Welcome
I present a way of looking at the world here. That way or idea is not
something that can be proven. But some of the fruits it contains might
be considered for tending to, grow and become part of existing systems
of thought.
Just click sequentially through all menu items on the left, like reading
chapters in a book, and take your time, or go to 'artemis' for every-
and nothing...
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zürich, Switzerland) and am doing this as a
hobby.
Alain Stalder
--
way
After defining elements from immediate perception of the world, inspired
by Kant and Schopenhauer, I relate these elements to physics, the
ancient Greek elements, and to the 8 trigrams of the Chinese I Ching.
--
space and time
Imagine that you have just now started to look at the world.
[image]
One of the first things that you notice is space. There is you and an
outside world that you can see, and you can see more than one thing.
What separates you and what you can see, and what separates the
different things that you see, is space in its most immediate
definition.
Then you also quickly notice that some things move and others do not.
This is time, again in its most immediate definition, as motion or being
at rest.
[image]
Things can rest or move outside and inside the mind. Thus there would a
priori be 4 different kinds of things: What moves outside, what rests
outside, what moves inside, and what rests inside. Let me call them
elements and give them the following names: emo, ero, emi and eri.
emo moves outside
ero rests outside
emi moves inside
eri rests inside
Using a camera, emo and ero might be defined as the difference between
two images taken shortly after each other. Differing pixels would be
emo, same pixels ero. For example, a ball that rolls down a slope would
itself not be emo as a physical object, but emo would be the area the
ball spawns between the two images (excluding the middle if the ball is
uniformly colored).
[image]
leads
Some literature quotes, ideas and different points of view. Always also
see 'artemis' for eventually articles that may expose some topics in a
more contemporarily amenable way.
* Immanuel Kant. The Critique of Pure Reason. 1787.
In the early chapters, Kant discloses that some observable things
cannot be isolated from the self, but instead appear to be themselves
a priori necessary for thinking and observation. These a priori
concepts include space and time in their immediate sense - the
structure in which things appear in the mind and seem to exist outside
of it.
* "By means of the external sense (a property of the mind), we represent
to ourselves objects as without us, and these all in space. Herein
alone are their shape, dimensions, and relations to each other
determined or determinable. [...] Space is not a conception which has
been derived from outward experiences. For, in order that certain
sensations may relate to something without me (that is, to something
which occupies a different part of space from that in which I am); in
like manner, in order that I may represent them not merely as without,
of, and near to each other, but also in separate places, the
representation of space must already exist as a foundation. [...] We
never can imagine or make a representation to ourselves of the
non-existence of space, though we may easily enough think that no
objects are found in it." (translated by J. Meiklejohn)
* "Time is not an empirical conception. For neither coexistence nor
succession would be perceived by us, if the representation of time did
not exist as a foundation a priori. [...] With regard to phenomena in
general, we cannot think away time from them, and represent them to
ourselves as out of and unconnected with time, but we can quite well
represent to ourselves time void of phenomena."
* If I can imagine something, is it then really inside of me? Isn't
there already a separation (space) between me and what I imagine? Such
an extreme definition of self or inside would mean that the self
cannot have any (consciously accessible) attributes, no memory etc.,
because any such attribute of the self would be something that can be
considered by the self and would thus, by definition, not be part of
the self...
* This definition of self reminds of the Tao ("way") in Taoism. Lao Tzu
starts the Tao Te Ching with "The Tao that can be Tao'ed
(trodden/spoken), is not the real (unchanging) Tao".
* The definition of emo as the difference between two images is from
September 2018. Before that I would often consider, say, a ball itself
(or at least its visible surface) as ero, as long as it would rest,
and as emo, when it would be rolling. That overall view still shows a
bit in the first drawing above.
The concept of a "ball" is a priori much more complex than comparing
two images, which becomes evident once you try to program computers to
recognize (3-dimensional) items on 2-dimensional images. How a concept
like a "ball" comes to be in the mind appears to require a lot of
interaction with the environment (typically quite early as a child),
and in the end it is philosophically not so clear whether a "ball" is
rather a natural thing, something that objectively exists, or rather a
useful cultural abstraction of reality, copied from others. See also
e.g. Kant or Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
The new definition of emo↔ero is more fundamental, even though it
reminds of the shadows in Plato's Cave. Thus it might a priori be
better suited for such a fundamental concept as elements are. But,
without having explored where different definitions lead, settling on
just one may be a bit early.
* How would rest/move be defined for other senses than vision?
How would eri and emi be measured inside? Would the only "objective"
way be to measure brain activity outside? Would that be fundamental
enough in this context?
Could the self (observer)4 be measured?
* Would a female observer also consider what is seen as not being part
of herself or would she rather tend to identify with what she sees?
(Is the own body part of the self? And lovers, family, friends, house,
garden, etc.?) In other words, is the distinction between in and out
hard or soft (gradual)?
* What about sleep, dreaming, trance, drunkenness? Why only have a fully
conscious observer?
--
metamorphosis
The next thing that one notices is that motion can start and stop, and
that changes outside and inside seem not to be independent of each
other. In other words, the elements change, maybe even metamorphose into
each other.
What causes or allows these changes? Whatever it is, it must be
something fundamental, like the four elements. So let me simply call it
the fifth element, e5.
Free will seems to be a part of e5. It is possible to lift a spoon and
then to throw it away, i.e. to get something outside that rests into
motion (ero→emo). However, free will cannot be identical to e5, as some
things are much harder to control (try lifting a tree) and things
transform all the time without conscious influence.
Freedom inside the mind seems larger than outside. It is much easier to
lift a tree in the mind, than a real tree. But let me tackle things from
a different angle: Outside on average more things rest than move, while
inside the mind, things are almost always more flowing.
For example, a tree is at rest in most situations, except for a little
movement of leaves and maybe branches. But if you close your eyes and
try to imagine a tree at rest, it will get very hard after a few seconds
not to deviate to other thoughts and to keep the tree at rest.
[image]
In conclusion, on average outside activity is needed to get things
moving, while inside activity is needed to keep things at rest. More
abstractly, emo and eri are thus active, ero and emi are passive. Also,
what is outside resists motion on average more than what is inside. So
emo and ero are hard (out), emi and eri are soft (in). What moves
usually does so in various directions. Hence what rests appears to bind,
what moves appears to release.
emo moves outside active hard release
ero rests outside passive hard bind
emi moves inside passive soft release
eri rests inside active soft bind
e5 transforms the above elements
If you leisurely observe a scene outside, like at the beach, usually
most things will be resting, but there will be some movement. If you
then close your eyes, in my experience, what will be immediately visible
after closing your eyes will be the few things that moved, but frozen in
movement, hence apparently a transition emo→eri, a transition in which
activity is preserved.
[image]
Accordingly, passivity outside would then yield passivity inside,
ero→emi. Actively created change outside, which more often means to get
something in motion than the other way round, usually needs active focus
inside first. Hence transitions in↔out would go both ways, emo↔eri and
ero↔emi. Motion outside can also come to be and stop without much
activity inside, like when an apple falls from a tree. Similarly, such
things can also happen inside without much activity outside. Hence there
would apparently also be transitions emo↔ero and emi↔eri. All in all,
apparently a circle ero↔emo↔eri↔emi↔ero, while other transitions would
at least be less frequent.
[image]
The elements could a priori interface in six ways: emo-ero, emi-eri,
emo-emi, ero-eri, emo-eri, emi-ero. Any interface between elements must
be unobservable, because otherwise it would be something that is
perceived inside or outside, i.e. it would be one of the four elements.
The same argument can be made for e5, of course.
Let me imagine an interface in-out as an infinitely thin membrane. And
imagine, say, a blob of ero at the interface. If it remained passive, it
could start to flow while permeating inside, becoming emi, or the other
way round, and similarly for emo and eri.
[image]
Since interfaces between elements would be invisible, just like e5, they
might a priori have an arbitrarily complex nature, so that the above
picture is a priori maybe just one of the simplest ways of seeing them.
leads
* If free will or the observing self is a part of e5, what is the rest?
Cause and effect, fate, destiny, the free will of others? Quantum
mechanics has relativized the first assumption somewhat, or maybe not.
* What property of the issue of free will or not leads to millions of
variations when thinking about it? Could it possibly even be literally
the effect of many "transformations" in the mind, even in circles,
whatever that may mean precisely?
* Freedom to lift a spoon does not automatically mean freedom of choice
whether to want to lift the spoon or not.
* The interface ero-emi could be seen as the arrangement of things
outside related to a mood, a flow of feelings inside.
* When I say that outside more things rest than move, I mean this in a
very specific sense: Relative macroscopic motion at time scales that
human beings can register.
At long time scales, all things move; microscopically everything is in
motion, as heat is nothing but random motion of atoms or molecules.
When I turn my head, all objects move, but relative motion between
them remains small.
* The present approach to nature is consequently centered on the human
perspective, on direct experience of nature. Modern science usually
differs from that by trying to pick a point of view from which a
problem is easy to describe.
The oldest example for this is astronomy that has been greatly
simplified by solar centered calculations instead of using many
arbitrary epicycles in geocentric calculations.
* Modern science is a very valuable companion for the present approach,
especially for helping to exclude naive mistakes.
* Can my observations about motion, activity and hardness outside and
inside be formalized and thus proven? How would such a mathematical
representation look like? What assumptions would it be based on?
* In any closed system, entropy, roughly a measure of disorder, can at
best remain constant, but usually it increases. With time, macroscopic
directed motion and structures decay into microscopic random motion,
which is, by definition, heat. Life manages to escape this fate by
operating in open systems, by exporting disorder into the environment.
That way, living beings can grow from microscopic seeds to complex
structures and animals can repeatedly create directed motion.
Since science considers the outside world to be mainly inanimate and
the mind to be located in a piece of organic matter, the brain, it
predicts that outside motion tends to disappear, while inside the
conscious mind has a hard time focusing on something, because lots of
mostly unconscious activity in the brain keeps stirring things up.
Science is thus essentially compatible with the considerations
presented so far, except for science's qualitative notion that
creating motion inside the mind is active, requires energy, like
outside. This might, however, simply be due to the viewpoint of
science, which only considers facts in the outer, material world and
might thus not be able to describe inner processes as experienced from
the inside...
* In meditation, calmness of the mind (eri) is often sought by actively
focussing the mind on something, thus reducing emi.
* In daily life, the outer world seems often bigger and stronger than
the inner one. If you look at a bicycle and then close your eyes, you
can quite quickly imagine the bicycle in your mind, but if you then
imagine, say, that you add wings, and open your eyes again, you will
usually not see a winged bicycle.
Conversely, you can usually make everything outside disappear by just
closing your eyes ("turn black", ero), or you can turn your head or
walk away, so that the influence on what one sees outside is
immediately very strong in that sense.
Adding wings to a bicycle outside is still possible, but harder,
because the outer world is harder. It requires several steps involving
eri (planning, focussing), which then lead, via emo, and to a
different arrangement of ero, a winged bicycle.
--
greek philosophy
Aristotle defines elements to be composed of properties that can be felt
by touching. He uses two pairs of opposites, hot-cold and wet-dry, to
define four elements, which he names fire, earth, water and air. And he
identifies wet-dry with soft-hard, viscous-brittle and smooth-rough.
Unlike later the Stoics, he does not consistently identify hot-cold with
active-passive and light-heavy. If you do, you get:
fire hot (active) dry (hard) emo
earth cold (passive) dry (hard) ero
water cold (passive) wet (soft) emi
air hot (active) wet (soft) eri
Aristotle defines a fifth element as immutable, moving only in circles
and existing only in space, while the other four elements move linearly.
And he also arranges the four elements essentially in a circle in which
they transform into each other by flipping one of hot↔cold or wet↔dry at
each transition. The shared theme of a circle links the transformation
of elements to the fifth element.
[image]
This yields a one-to-one correspondence to my previous definition of the
elements, including the same circle.
leads
* Aristotle. On Generation and Corruption. Around 350 BCE.
* "Since, then, we are looking for 'originative sources' of perceptible
body; and since 'perceptible' is equivalent to 'tangible', and
'tangible' is that of which the perception is touch; it is clear that
not all the contrarieties constitute 'forms' and 'originative sources'
of body, but only those which correspond to touch." (Book II,
translated by H. Joachim)
* "From moist and dry are derived (iii) the fine and coarse, viscous and
brittle, hard and soft, and the remaining tangible differences. For
(a) since the moist has no determinate shape, but is readily adaptable
and follows the outline of that which is in contact with it, it is
characteristic of it to be 'such as to fill up'. Now 'the fine' is
'such as to fill up'. For 'the fine' consists of subtle particles; but
that which consists of small particles is 'such as to fill up',
inasmuch as it is in contact whole with whole-and 'the fine' exhibits
this character in a superlative degree. Hence it is evident that the
fine derives from the moist, while the coarse derives from the dry.
Again (b) 'the viscous' derives from the moist: for 'the viscous'
(e.g. oil) is a 'moist' modified in a certain way. 'The brittle', on
the other hand, derives from the dry: for 'brittle' is that which is
completely dry-so completely, that its solidification has actually
been due to failure of moisture. Further (c) 'the soft' derives from
the moist. For 'soft' is that which yields to pressure by retiring
into itself, though it does not yield by total displacement as the
moist does-which explains why the moist is not 'soft', although 'the
soft' derives from the moist. 'The hard', on the other hand, derives
from the dry: for 'hard' is that which is solidified, and the
solidified is dry."
* "The elementary qualities are four [...]. Hence it is evident that the
'couplings' of the elementary qualities will be four: hot with dry and
moist with hot, and again cold with dry and cold with moist. [...]
Fire is hot and dry, whereas Air is hot and moist (Air being a sort of
aqueous vapour); and Water is cold and moist, while Earth is cold and
dry."
* Aristotle arranges the elements in a cycle fire-air-water-earth:
"Thus (i) the process of conversion will be quick between those which
have interchangeable 'complementary factors', but slow between those
which have none. The reason is that it is easier for a single thing to
change than for many. Air, e.g. will result from Fire if a single
quality changes: for Fire, as we saw, is hot and dry while Air is hot
and moist, so that there will be Air if the dry be overcome by the
moist. Again, Water will result from Air if the hot be overcome by the
cold: for Air, as we saw, is hot and moist while Water is cold and
moist, so that, if the hot changes, there will be Water. So too, in
the same manner, Earth will result from Water and Fire from Earth,
since the two 'elements' in both these couples have interchangeable
'complementary factors'. For Water is moist and cold while Earth is
cold and dry-so that, if the moist be overcome, there will be Earth:
and again, since Fire is dry and hot while Earth is cold and dry, Fire
will result from Earth if the cold pass-away."
It appears that Aristotle excludes other transitions, because why else
would they be slower if not because they would have to take place in
sequence as two transitions along the circle?
* Some fragments of Heraclitus suggest the same circle, namely DK B76
"fire's death is air's birth, and air's death is water's birth" and
B36 "psyche's death is water's birth, water's death is earth's birth,
from earth comes water, from water comes psyche", if psyche (or soul)
is identified with air. But knowledge of Heraclitus is based on
fragmentary quotes from later authors like the ones above. Fragment
B31 describes a transformation from fire to sea (water?) and says that
sea is made of equal parts of earth and whirlwind (air?); fragment B90
suggests that he considered fire the primary substance.
Similarly, there have been many views by different philosophers, some
of which are mentioned further below.
* In On Generation and Corruption, Aristotle considers light-heavy not
to be an attribute of any specific elements:
"(i) heavy and light are neither active nor susceptible. Things are
not called 'heavy' and 'light' because they act upon, or suffer action
from, other things. But the 'elements' must be reciprocally active and
susceptible, since they 'combine' and are transformed into one
another. On the other hand (ii) hot and cold, and dry and moist, are
terms, of which the first pair implies power to act and the second
pair susceptibility."
But in On the Heavens, he considers air and fire as light and water
and earth as heavy, in the order earth-water-air-fire, and postulates
the existence of an immutable fifth element that dominates in the sky,
is neither light nor heavy and moves in circles, while the first four
elements move linearly:
"[...] all locomotion, as we term it, is either straight or circular
or a combination of these two, which are the only simple movements.
[...] Now revolution about the centre is circular motion, while the
upward and downward movements are in a straight line, 'upward' meaning
motion away from the centre, and 'downward' motion towards it. [...]
For if the natural motion is upward, it will be fire or air, and if
downward, water or earth. [...] circular motion is necessarily
primary. For the perfect is naturally prior to the imperfect, and the
circle is a perfect thing. [...] These premises clearly give the
conclusion that there is in nature some bodily substance other than
the formations we know, prior to them all and more divine than they.
[...] there is something beyond the bodies that are about us on this
earth, different and separate from them; and that the superior glory
of its nature is proportionate to its distance from this world of
ours. [...] things are heavy and light relatively to one another; air,
for instance, is light relatively to water, and water light relatively
to earth. The body, then, which moves in a circle cannot possibly
possess either heaviness or lightness. For neither naturally nor
unnaturally can it move either towards or away from the centre. [...]
this body will be ungenerated and indestructible and exempt from
increase and alteration [...] earth is enclosed by water, water by
air, air by fire, and these similarly by the upper bodies" (Book I,
translated by J. Stocks)
* Most things in the sky beyond clouds are round or cyclic: sun and moon
are round, planets, as well as stars during night and seasons, move
periodically in predictable cycles.
* The fifth element is also called ether or aether and quintessence.
Many different views of the fifth element and closely related concepts
have emerged over time.
Plato used the word aether to describe the purest form of air in the
Timaeus. But there is also a strong association of the sky with fire,
because stars and planets appear to emit light and the sun provides
heat, and also because fire was often considered the lightest of the
four elements.
The fifth element is generally considered "divine" because gods were
often believed to live in heaven. And it is often also seen as special
in other ways, like able to create life, or immortal like the soul or
maybe pneuma, or able to create matter and to hold it together, or
maybe identified by some alchemists with the philosopher's stone,
which was believed to be able to transform matter, like lead to gold,
etc.?
* Do such associations (historically founded or not) fit well with the
definition of e5 simply because they all keep going in circles around
the same questions?
* Aristotle appears to consistently link hot/cold to active and wet/dry
to passive, see quote from On Generation and Corruption above, or the
following quote from Meteorology:
"All this makes it clear that bodies are formed by heat and cold and
that these agents operate by thickening and solidifying. It is because
these qualities fashion bodies that we find heat in all of them, and
in some cold in so far as heat is absent. These qualities, then, are
present as active, and the moist and the dry as passive, and
consequently all four are found in mixed bodies." (Book IV, translated
by E. Webster)
* David Sedley writes in chapter 11 of The Cambridge History of
Hellenistic Philosophy (Cambridge University Press, 2000) that the
Stoic's identification of hot-cold with active-passive emerged from
medical tradition, from pneuma, breath, which was seen as a mixture of
fire and air, and mentions also that this identification was not so
clearly the only view of the Stoics in their time. A bit later
astrological views emerged that see fire and air as male, and water
and earth as female. See Vettius Valens's Anthologia in the 2nd
century CE and hints in earlier texts by Dorotheus of Sidon and Marcus
Manilius. These views have essentially prevailed, including in
medieval alchemy and up to contemporary astrology.
* According to Diogenes Laërtius in the third century CE, the Stoics
would have identified fire with hot, earth with dry, water with wet,
and air with cold (and dry):
"[...] the four elements are all equally an essence without any
distinctive quality, namely, matter; but fire is the hot, water the
moist, air the cold, and earth the dry - though this last quality is
also common to the air. The fire is the highest, and that is called
aether, in which first of all the sphere was generated in which the
fixed stars are set, then that in which the planets revolve; after
that the air, then the water; and the sediment as it were of all is
the earth, which is placed in the centre of the rest." (7. LXIX,
translated by C. Yonge)
The papyrus Anonymus Londinensis from about the first century CE says
essentially the same about Philistion (apparently Philistion of Locri,
a contemporary of Plato):
"Philiston thinks that we are composed of four 'forms', that is, of
four elements - fire, air, water, earth. Each of these too has its own
power; of fire the power is the hot, of air it is the cold, of water
the moist, and of earth the dry." (XX 24, translated by W. Jones)
According to David Hahm in The Origins of Stoic Cosmology (1977), this
view might have already been quite common among physicians in
classical times. Artistotle's texts about biology seem to implicitly
reflect that view quite clearly, like that air is inhaled cold and
exhaled hot (pneuma). Although there appear to be no contemporary
sources that would directly prove such an identification, Hahm's
detailed argumentation that the Stoics aimed for a unified view of the
elements across all fields seems to make this plausible.
In Stoic belief, the cosmos emerged from fire via air to water to
earth, and back (see Hahm for details), essentially along Aristotle's
circle of the elements.
* In Academica (45 BCE), Cicero lets Antiochus of Ascalon say the
following, influenced by Aristotle and the Stoics:
"Accordingly air [...] and fire and water and earth are primary; while
their derivatives are the species of living creatures and of the
things that grow out of the earth. Therefore those things are termed
[...] elements; and among them air and fire have motive and efficient
force, and the remaining divisions [...] water and earth, receptive
and 'passive' capacity. Aristotle deemed that there existed a certain
fifth sort of element, in a class by itself and unlike the four that I
have mentioned above, which was the source of the stars and of
thinking minds." (Book I 26, translated by H. Rackham)
* In contemporary astrology, fire is associated with imagination, air
with (abstract) thinking and communication, water with feelings, and
earth with pragmatic realism.
* In ancient Greek philosophy there was also the idea of matter
consisting of indivisible physical units (atoms). In Plato's Timaeus,
a model is presented that combines both views by associating the five
elements with the five Platonic solids: fire-tetrahedron,
air-octahedron, water-icosahedron, earth-cube and the roundest one,
the dodecahedron, for the whole world/universe (pan).
In 4 dimensions there are 6 generalized Platonic solids, in 5 and more
dimensions always only 3, namely generalizations of tetrahedron, cube
and octahedron.
* Empedocles is often credited for having first mentioned the four
elements in the following fragment (DK31B6):
[image]
It speaks of "four roots" at the origin of all and then lists four
gods with some attributes, in this order: Zeus (flashing/shining),
Hera (live-giving/-bearing), Aidoneus (no attributes), Nestis
(moisture, tears/dew). Interpretation and attribution to elements is
controversial and has already been so in antiquity; start maybe at
John Opsopaus (see links).
If you take Empedocles literally, Zeus would maybe most immediately be
the root of fire, because of his attributes and because he creates
lightning, Hera the root of earth, because she bears (creates) a
child, Nestis the root of water, because of dew and tears (rain?).
This would leave Aidoneus as the root of air, which seems rather
unexpected at first. Aidoneus is a variant of Aides (Hades) since at
least Homer, and maybe most likely means "unseen" or "invisible". In
Plato's Cratylus Socrates proposes "knowledge of all noble things"
instead. In any case, air and knowledge are typically invisible, and
death arguably kills everything except an immortal, invisible soul,
which then dwells in the underworld, in Hades.
Still, so far Hades-air seems not to be most obvious fit, but maybe
still clear enough for a secretly initiated reader in antiquity? Note
that Aidoneus is the only one listed without explicit attributes, so
maybe his name itself is the attribute, and the list of contemporary
deities served also to veil a secret "oath" to the four elements and
related medical traditions?
The Hippocratic Oath in its oldest preserved form also starts with
four names: "I swear by Apollo the healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia,
by Panacea, [...]". The sun god Apollon would maybe be most strongly
associated with fire, his son Asclepius as a wise doctor with air, his
daughter Hygieia with water, as she is often shown with a snake that
drinks from a bowl in her hands (and with hygiene, of course, which
often involves liquids for disinfection), and Panacea, another of
Asclepius' five daughters, with earth, as she used to heal with
plants. Did doctors implicitly take an oath on the four elements, more
so than on the explicitly named gods or saints?
The order of elements in the oath would thus be Aristoteles' ordering
from light to heavy, while Empedocles' order would remind maybe more
of the myth of Dionysos, who was born first from fire (Zeus in form of
lightning), then from earth (Zeus' thigh), then from water (chopped to
pieces, cooked and put back together), then from air (struck with
madness), finally to be reborn as arguably a "higher octave" of Zeus,
as the fifth element, also symbolized by wearing a lion's pelt? The
zodiac starts with fire (Aries), then follow earth, air, water, and
then fire again, in the fifth sign, Leo.
The myth of Dionysos reminds also of ancient Egyptian myths around
Osiris, Isis, their dismembered son Horus, and Seth, or of ancient
Egyptian creation myths, like the one of Heliopolis, where there
appears to be a sequence water-fire-air/water-earth/heaven-..., which
also resembles Hesiod's description of how the world came to be, and
creation myths world-wide. In such myths, elements are usually
automatically listed in a sequence, as later by Aristotle by lightness
or in a circle.
To ancient Greeks, the ancient Egyptians were apparently sort of like
the ancient Greeks in modern perception, an admired ancient culture.
It appears that the ancient Egyptians might have kept things more
secret than the Greeks in their time, maybe only passing it on from
master to pupil shaman?
Finally, as a teaser, note that the pyramids have five corners, an
earthly base of four, plus one on top.
--
i ching
All cultures seem to know some kinds of elements, but let me consider
the 8 trigrams of the Chinese Book of Changes, the I Ching or Yijing.
☰ heaven, strong, creative, father
☷ earth, devoted/yielding, receptive, mother
☳ thunder, inciting movement, arousing, 1st son
☵ water, dangerous, abysmal, 2nd son
☶ mountain, resting, keeping still, 3rd son
☴ wind/wood, penetrating, gentle, 1st daughter
☲ fire, light-giving, clinging, 2nd daughter
☱ lake, joyful, joyous, 3rd daughter
They seem to resemble Greek elements in pairs, namely heaven-wind (air),
earth-mountain, fire-thunder and water-lake. Let me rearrange them into
another table:
☰ heaven air rests male
☴ wind air moves female
☶ mountain earth rests male
☷ earth earth moves female
☲ fire fire rests female
☳ thunder fire moves male
☱ lake water rests female
☵ water water moves male
Interestingly, the trigrams that correspond to the Greek elements, i.e.
resting air and earth, moving fire and water, are exactly the male
trigrams.
Let me map each trigram to the result of a transition between two
elements in Aristotle's circle of the elements, ending with the
corresponding element and starting with a male element (fire or air) for
the male trigrams (father and sons) and with a female element (water or
earth) for the female trigrams (mother and daughters):
[image]
The trigrams seem to fit closely: Thunder as fire that has suddenly come
down as lightning from the sky (air), in contrast to fire steadily
clinging to the matter (earth) it burns; wind as air that gently
evaporated from water, in contrast to gases from a fire risen to heaven;
a lake as water sprung from sources (earth), in contrast to water fallen
down as rain from the sky (air); a mountain as earth solidified from
lava (fire), in contrast to softly yielding earth from sediments
deposited by water.
☰ heaven air ← fire rests male
☴ wind air ← water moves female
☶ mountain earth ← fire rests male
☷ earth earth ← water moves female
☲ fire fire ← earth rests female
☳ thunder fire ← air moves male
☱ lake water ← earth rests female
☵ water water ← air moves male
This arrangement is none of the two traditionally known ones, more
similar to Earlier Heaven than Later Heaven:
[image]
More symmetries, some similar to Earlier Heaven:
* Daughters and sons are arranged from father to first to second to
third children, and finally to mother.
* Opposite trigrams in the circle mirror each other if you mirror each
trigram at the middle line (i.e. swap first and third line) and invert
all lines (yin↔yang).
* Trigrams that transform to or from outer elements have a broken (yin)
line in the middle, which would fit with outer elements being harder
and more brittle, breaking more easily.
* Excluding the middle line, between adjacent trigrams in the circle
exactly one line is inverted (yin↔yang).
leads
* The I Ching is a divination system. By tossing coins or drawing yarrow
sticks, one determines hexagrams (two trigrams) that are given
meanings in the text of the I Ching. More precisely, the oracle
results in two hexagrams, describing the evolution of the current
situation to a new situation.
* This new arrangement of the 8 trigrams and 4 elements in a circle was
inspired by a passage in the introduction of Richard Wilhelm's
translation of the I Ching or Book of Changes (translated from German
to English by Cary F. Baynes):
"The eight trigrams are symbols standing for changing transitional
states; they are images that are constantly undergoing change.
Attention centers not on things in their state of being - as is
chiefly the case in the Occident - but upon their movements in change.
The eight trigrams therefore are not representations of things as such
but of their tendencies in movement."
So the 8 Chinese trigrams would express essentially the same elements
and changes in a circle as the 4+1 Greek elements, i.e. the fifth
element would be contained in the trigrams.
* Also in terms of bind/release, the trigrams seem to fit closely: Fire,
heaven, lake and mountain hold their element in place; thunder, wind,
water and earth let it go.
* No common historical roots are known, nor any roots of the above
arrangement of trigrams in Chinese history, so did both cultures
mirror nature independently, even unknowingly?
Interpreting earth-water-air as the states of matter solid-fluid-gas
and fire as a chemical reaction or physical phenomenon that produces
light and maybe heat, the elements could be considered what is most
commonly encountered in nature.
The elements represent also elementary needs: air to breathe, water to
drink, food to eat, sunlight and fire as energy.
Conversely, the very nature of oracles is that things are connected,
maybe also globally to some degree?
* In the yarrow stalk method of consulting the I Ching, one starts with
50 yarrow stalks and initially puts one away. This seems to be a
reference to the cycles of moon and sun, because 50+49 lunar months
are only about 1.5 days short of 8 solar years, which is also why the
Olympics in ancient Greece were held alternatively every 50 and 49
lunar months. Hence the moon advances about 3/8 of the circle every
solar year, drawing an eight-pointed star over eight years, as well as
appearing in eight different lunar phases.
[image]
Venus never separates more than about 1/8 of the circle from the sun
and appears to stand still 5 times in 8 years, drawing a pentagram
that shifts only slightly between cycles. The Mesopotamian goddess of
love Ishtar was associated with Venus, usually depicted as an
eight-pointed star and sometimes shown together with sun and moon.
The yin-yang symbol ☯ reminds of moon phases.
* The five Chinese Wu Xing, water, metal, fire, wood and earth, which
are often called "elements" in the West, but literally mean
"moving", stand most immediately for the five planets visible to the
naked eye, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, while the "Four
Symbols", black turtle, white tiger, vermillion bird and azure dragon
stand for the four directions and for constellations in the sky (each
for a group of 7 of the 28 mansions). Together with the I Ching maybe
standing for sun and moon, this would complete the sky and what it was
believed to reflect down on earth.
* In the five Wu Xing, earth often has a somewhat central role,
surrounded by things that emerge from it and go back to it: water from
springs, fire from volcanoes, wood growing from earth and metal mined
from it; four very useful ingredients for humans to shape their
worlds, like using fire to smelt ore into metal tools, which can then
be used to cut wood into houses, furniture, bows, plows, water wheels,
etc.
* In the Chinese zodiac, four star signs are assigned to earth, arranged
in a cross, and in the four sectors in between, the two star signs
there are assigned to water, metal, fire and wood, respectively. This
reminds a lot of Aristotle's circle with trigrams above, so maybe the
Wu Xing earth would correspond to the static Greek elements and the
other four Wu Xing to the trigrams of the I Ching for the
corresponding transformation? Can this be identified in the attributes
of the star signs of the Chinese zodiac?
* Is the association of trigrams with elements and their changes also
closely mirrored in the hexagrams and their changes?
* When consulting the I Ching as an oracle, the different lines are
assigned the numbers 6 to 9:
6 old (changing) yin - - to --- -x-
7 new (unchanging) yang --- to --- ---
8 new (unchanging) yin - - to - - - -
9 old (changing) yang --- to - - -o-
These numbers are also associated with the Wu Xing and derived from 5
(earth) plus 1 to 4 (water, fire, wood, metal), see the Yellow River
Map, e.g. in Wilhelm/Baynes.
As a different approach, let me number the elements in Aristotle's
circle as 1-2-3-4, starting a priori with any element and going in
either direction of the circle. Now, map transformations of elements
to the sum of the three elements involved, 1+2+3 = 6, 2+3+4 = 9, 3+4+1
= 8 and 4+1+2 = 7, where the element in the middle is the one that is
transformed.
This gives also the numbers from 6 to 9 and note that new yin and yang
are obtained for the sequences that cross from 4 to 1, i.e. into a new
cycle.
Let me number the elements 1-fire, 2-air, 3-water, 4-earth (starting
with the lightest element according to Aristotle):
6 transformation of air 36 = 6 x 6 Stratagems
7 transformation of fire 49 = 7 x 7 Qixi (Ch'i?)
8 transformation of earth 64 = 8 x 8 I Ching
9 transformation of water 81 = 9 x 9 Tao Te Ching
This fits astonishingly well with contemporary Western astrological
views of the elements. The 36 Stratagems provide stratagems to use in
politics and war, which fits well with air as conscious planning mind.
The I Ching yields a priori images of changes in the outer, material
world, the element earth, which are then interpreted in a more
detached way. The Tao Te Ching, which comes in 81 sections, often has
something that flows like water. Besides the 50/49 yarrow stalks,
there is the Qixi Festival on the 7th day of the 7th month of the year
when magpies mythologically build a bridge across the milky way to
briefly reunite two lovers, and ch'i (qì) stands for life energy and
breath (which reminds of pneuma), and is pronounced almost like the
word for 7 (qī) in Chinese.
In ancient China, fields in agriculture used to be divided into
squares of 9 = 3 x 3 fields, with 8 fields (earth) owned by individual
families around a central 9th field that belonged to all families and
contained the well (water).
[image]
* The most ancient Chinese oracles used bones (typically shoulder bones
of oxen) or turtle plastrons (the belly part of the turtle shell).
Holes were drilled and heated with a heat source from the back of the
plastron to produce cracks on the front, which were typically
T-shaped. Although many oracle bones and plastrons have been found and
the ancient writing can now be read to quite some degree, little seems
to be known about how cracks were interpreted. There seems to be no
direct evidence for an influence on the I Ching, so far.
A plastron consists essentially of 6 pairs of scutes (shields), anal,
femoral, abdominal, pectoral, humeral and gular, with a flexible hinge
between the first and the last 3 pairs of scutes, which reminds of the
structure of hexagrams.
Applying heat to a plastron can cause it to crack, to become broken.
Are yin and yang lines as broken (weak) resp. unbroken (strong) lines
in the I Ching thus related to more ancient oracles involving heat?
Heat dries up, makes brittle, so would a yang line correspond to no
crack emerging, because it was wet to start with, hence be considered
strong in the sense of resisting heat?
On the northern hemisphere, stars appear to rotate around the north
pole in the sky, the direction assigned to the turtle of the four
symbols. Is the turtle with its shell maybe a model of the world, with
the plastron standing for what is down on earth and the upper part of
the shell for the sky? And similarly lower and upper trigrams of the I
Ching?
The hexagons on the upper part of the shell could be seen to form 6
unbroken/yang lines (heaven) and the pairs of plastron scutes 6
broken/yin lines (earth).
[image]
* In Greek mythology, as early as in Hesiod's Theogony, Cronos and Rhea
had 3 sons and 3 daughters. Their parents were Ouranos and Gaia, which
mean heaven (or mountain) and earth. Zeus, the third son, was close to
his mother Rhea who tricked Cronos and hid Zeus from him, so that Zeus
grew up on mount Ida and after his revolution reigned on mount
Olympos. Just like the mountain trigram (3rd son) is close to the
earth trigram (mother) in the circle?
The mother might have been considered naturally closer to her youngest
children because they emerged last from her.
--
möbius
Let me arrange the circle of elements and trigrams onto a Möbius Strip
as follows (click below to zoom in):
[image]
Inner elements are placed on the inside of the strip, outer elements on
the outside. That way, the strip reminds of the supposed permeable
membrane between in and out, but with different elements touching: The
symbols for the moving elements fire and water touch on opposite sides
of the strip, coinciding perfectly, and the same is true for the resting
elements earth and air. All lines of the trigrams on one side of the
strip are mirrored by their inverted lines (yin ↔ yang) on the other
side, so that yin and yang are different sides of the same on the strip.
So, even though fire and water would touch, and maybe mirror each other
between in and out, they could not transform directly into each other,
only indirectly by going along the single surface of the strip via air
or earth.
[image]
leads
* In a harmonic oscillator, two kinds of energies are transformed into
each other. For example, for a mass on a spring, the energy in the
spring transforms into the kinetic energy of the moving mass and
vice-versa. This gives the motion of the oscillator four special
states, when either of the energies is extremal. And the motion
between these states is periodic, thus overall reminding of the circle
of elements.
However, the natural pairing of extremal states of a harmonic
oscillator is opposite states in the cycle, which naturally fits
rest/move in the elemental circle, but makes it hard to relate two
pairs of adjacent states to opposites like active/passive or in/out in
a natural way.
* Could a mathematical model of the elements as defined here grow into a
scientific way of doing metaphysics, as in Kant's Prolegomena to Any
Future Metaphysics That Will Be Able to Present Itself as a Science?
rest/move in/out passive/active
bind/release wet/dry cold/hot
soft/hard heavy/light
malleable/brittle dark/light
mixed/isolated female/male
collective/individual moon/sun
night/day
un-/conscious
Such a mathematical model, as useful as it could be, would be
essentially air, something that rests inside the mind.
* Aristotle considers four "causes" in Physics and Metaphysics, which
remind of the four elements. Matter reminds of earth, form of air,
primary source of fire and final goal of water.
* Is the female fire trigram a form of inner fire, emo mapped to some
form of eri, that is clinging to a dream, an idea, a wish despite all
outer hardness? Is the female earth trigram a form of inner earth, ero
mapped to some form of emi, something that can yield devotely to outer
hardness? Is the female lake trigram a form of outer water, emi mapped
to some form of ero, which brings calm to the outside world without
hardness? Is the female wind trigram a form of outer air, eri mapped
to some form of emo, free flowing mind and communication?
* Is the Chinese approach thus more balanced? Conversely, is the Greek
approach more likely to start new things, exactly because it is maybe
initially more imbalanced? Are both needed for 'full' balance? Is
there more?
* In Psychologische Typen (1921), C.G. Jung combines extra- and
introversion with implicitly the four elements, which he terms
thinking (air), feeling (water), intuition (fire) and sensation
(earth), into 8 psychological types, almost certainly already
implicitly inspired by the I Ching.
Memories, Dreams, Reflections (1961): "I first met Richard Wilhelm
[...] in the early twenties. In 1923 we invited him to Zürich [...].
Even before meeting him I had been interested in Oriental philosophy,
and around 1920 had begun experimenting with the I Ching." (Appendix
IV, recorded and edited by A. Jaffé, translated by R. and C. Winston)
Also in Psychologische Typen, Jung additionally categorizes thinking
and feeling as "rational" or "judging", intuition and sensation as
"irrational", but even writes:
"But I am prepared to grant that we may equally well entertain a
precisely opposite conception of such a psychology, and present it
accordingly. I am also convinced that, had I myself chanced to possess
a different individual psychology, I should have described the
rational types in the reversed way, from the standpoint of the
unconscious-as irrational, therefore." (A III 5, translated by H.G.
Baynes)
In that sense, what Jung calls "irrational" could also be considered
"realistic", as judging the world rather based on measurement outside
than on inner conceptions, just like in science, as opposed to e.g.
medieval Christian views, where looking at Jupiter's moons through
Galileo's telescope could apparently not have convinced people that
not everything revolves around earth. In astrology, rationality is
typically air, reality typically earth, but both air and water (which
is usually considered rather irrational and related to the
unconscious) have to do with judgment, which is maybe not so
astonishing, considering that eri and emi would be inner elements. In
my definition of the elements, the world consists a priori
symmetrically of both in and out, except that the observing self is
arguably observing rather from the inside out, and perceives and
judges the world based on all four elements.
So Jung would have been quite close in a way, which I might relate to
the astrological placement of his moon in Taurus in the 3rd house. In
any case, Jung's text is the first I know of to bring "in/out" near
"elements", with extra-/introverted and judging from within or
without. (I had taken a quick look at Jung's psychological types in
1998 or a bit later, but only discovered this when I took another look
on 28 Oct 2018.)
* Near the end of Apuleius' The Golden Ass (around 150 CE), Apuleius
encounters the goddess Isis at full moon at the sea shortly after
moonrise:
"Her many-coloured robe was of finest linen; part was glistening
white, part crocus-yellow, part glowing red and along the entire hem a
woven bordure of flowers and fruit clung swaying in the breeze. But
what caught and held my eye more than anything else was the deep black
lustre of her mantle. [..] It was embroidered with glittering stars on
the hem and everywhere else, and in the middle beamed a full and fiery
moon." (Chapter 17, translated by Robert Graves)
Astrologer Antiochus of Athens and physician Galenus of Pergamon
attributed colors resp. body fluids (humors) to elements around the
time Apuleius lived, based on older roots going back at least
partially to Hippocrates: white to water (phlegm, phlegmatic), black
to earth (black bile, melancholic), yellow to fire (yellow bile,
choleric) and red to air (blood, sanguine), the colors of Isis' dress
above, plus stars and moon for the round fifth element in the sky.
* In alchemy, also since about at least the same time, the transition of
materials toward what is now called the philosopher's stone was
believed to be from black via white (moon) and yellow (sun) to red,
i.e. earth-water-fire-air, which is roughly in order of lightness of
the elements and their relatively layered appearance on earth. It is
apparently also the order of elements in the four tasks that Venus
gives Psyche in an inner story in The Golden Ass, as I explore
elsewhere, see artemis. All of this has ancient Egyptian roots, with
Osiris (and his brother Seth), Isis and their son Horus, as well as
with ancient crafts of creating fake noble metals and gems.
* One of the oldest ancient Indian Upanishads, the Chandogya Upanishad
(ca. 1000 BCE), speaks of three elements, fire (red), water (white)
and earth (black):
"The red colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the original] fire;
the white colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the original]
water; the black colour of [gross] fire is the colour of [the
original] earth. Thus vanishes from fire what is commonly called fire,
the modification being only a name, arising from speech, while the
three colours (forms) alone are true." (Part 6, Chapter 4, translated
by Swami Nikhilananda)
Why do these three colors red-white-black appear in so many cultures
as primary colors? Robert Graves links them to the moon and I guess he
is right, but why stereotypically the colors of the moon at night
instead of green, brown, blue, etc. of nature at daylight when there
is so much more color?
Maybe because the colors that remain when light gets dimmer would be
more fundamental? Moon, stars and sky at night? And also the colors of
a fire, humanity's own light source at night, independent of a full
moon: Colors that reflect light for the passive elements earth (black
coal) and water (white ashes), colors that create light for the active
elements air (red embers) and fire (yellow flames)?
Did ancient cultures maybe often not distinguish red and yellow as
separate colors? Only three elements first?
* Plato talks about colors in the Timaeus, Aristotle in On Sense and the
Sensible. Both start with black and white as basic colors, which is
scientifically correct in the sense that by selectively taking
frequencies out of the full spectrum of white, you get all colors,
including black and white.
There are three kinds of color sensors in the human eye, for red,
green and blue, sorted from low to high frequency. None triggered (no
light) is black, plus red gives red, plus also green gives yellow,
plus also blue gives white, hence a sequence black-red-yellow-white or
earth-air-fire-water.
* Is the Lakota "Medicine Wheel" so old that it already came to America
with immigrants walking across the Bering Sea at least 10'000 years
ago? The Yangshao culture "Xishuipo M45 Tomb" in China, which dates
back to the 4th millenium BCE, features the mosaic of a tiger opposite
the mosaic of a dragon, as constellations in the sky, exactly the
animals that are traditionally assigned to West and East in China.
My impression is that the more you go back in time, the more likely
"knowledge about elements" was something that only "shamans" had and
only secretly passed on to their pupils.
* In August 2015, I assigned Greek goddesses to pairs of elements and
moon phases, and tentatively flipped Athena and Hera in May 2018:
Artemis/Hecate to birth/death at new moon as fire around water, Hera
(and Clotho) to growth as a young woman or girl at the first quarter
as earth around air, Aphrodite (and Lachesis) to bloom as a mature
woman at full moon as water around fire, and Athena (and Atropos) to
withering as an old woman at the last quarter as air around earth.
Artemis/Hecate would thus contain both first and fifth element, and
elements would touch as on the Möbius Strip.
* Zhuangzi's famous butterfly dream:
"Once Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly, a fluttering
butterfly who felt at ease and happy and knew nothing of Chuang Tzu.
Suddenly he woke up: Then he was again really and truly Chuang Tzu.
Now I do not know whether Chuang Tzu dreamt that he was a butterfly or
whether the butterfly dreamt that it was Chuang Tzu, even though there
is certainly a difference between Chuang Tzu and the butterfly. This
is how the change of things is." (translated by me from the Wilhelm
translation to German)
The same day I had first quoted the dream here, on the streets of
Zürich, two butterflies on a truck, 21 Sep 2016 at 13:34. White, red,
black, a little yellow, even a little circle and her.
(In Apuleius' encounter with Isis, it is left open whether he was
"just dreaming" or "it really happened".)
[image]
The image is by Elena Vizerskaya (Getty Images 108350631); I bought
the rights to use it, too, just to be safe.
* See Billy Culver's Energy Language website, which inspired me in
summer 2016 to reconsider old attempts to arrange elements and
trigrams on a Möbius Strip or an infinity symbol ∞ and whose style
influenced the graphics above, but in my feeling his images carry more
potential than that.
* (The walking cat of the metamorphosis section came to me at Delphi in
Greece on Tuesday, 4 September 2018 at about 13:09, ate some of my
food, a dry pretzel and salmon jerky, then, after a few burps (still a
kid) and playing a little, took a nap of about 20 minutes on my lap,
then left roughly in the direction of the Athena Pronoia temple, where
I had been a bit earlier. During these few minutes there were no
doubts what to do and felt so good, like having a child to care for.
Was the AC maybe even an oracle for the AC of π, with the moon maybe
late at glowing quincunxes, or early spring?)
[image]
--
evolutions
Some ways in which the idea presented earlier might evolve with time.
--
mixed feelings
The inner elements eri and emi are softer than the outer ones, which
suggests that they would mix more easily.
The idea is now that what appears outside as individual and separate
beings is unconsciously connected inside...
[image]
...and that these connections result in feelings that change for often
not obvious reasons (emi), while naming inner concepts allows to impose
some abstract calm (eri).
Astrology links water (emi) to feelings, love, music, art, religion, the
collective and/or individual unconscious, and more. Now, the idea of a
collective unconscious goes back to Jung, while it may in the end still
be so that such unconscious collective connections are created by more
Freudian individual unconsciouses, via subliminal channels in normal
day-to-day external interactions between beings.
But let me explore things in the Jungian picture first, as a
Gedankenexperiment, because it is initially easier, and because it
mirrors the initial assumption more directly.
How one feels at any moment would be a mixture of individual and
collective influences. Not that what other people think would be
directly accessible, just indirectly with regard to how one feels in a
particular situation, or how one feels regarding individual possible
next steps.
Individuals that are emotionally and physically close would likely have
the strongest influence on a person, but also large groups of people,
like same village, country, religion, etc., could together have a strong
influence.
Influences from a collective unconscious could go well beyond the sum of
what is in individual conscious minds. Since the collective unconscious
would effectively be a very large brain, consisting of many more brain
cells than any individual being, it might have a much more complex and
sophisticated mind than any conscious individual and it could know all
kinds of details about everybody.
Such a view of a collective unconscious would resemble the concept of
god or gods in many religions, and it would likely be fragmented into
smaller units at several scales, like families, countries, religions,
etc., each with its own collective feelings, plans, and so on.
Jung noticed that in dreams and in cultural creations some archetypal
patterns repeat. These archetypes might simply be part of the thoughts,
experiences and knowledge of the collective unconscious.
Precognition in dreams or art might simply be picking up collective
intentions that are only later realized and can be felt and dreamed
about already while the collective unconscious is only planning or
considering them.
How would the collective unconscious effectively direct the individuals
it consists of? Telling each and every one what to do at each moment
would likely not be possible, just like the conscious individual mind
would not be able to tell each of its nerve cells when to fire.
But maybe with a general concept like astrology, which creates a
balanced and relatively complete set of individuals, each with its own
approach to new problems? Faced with a particular problem, a Leo, for
example, would feel more like solving it in a "Leo way", due to
collective feedback, so that in any situation different approaches would
be tried by different individuals and a good solution would usually
emerge. Since astrology tries to reflect all possible approaches in a
structured way, the search space for solutions would usually be quite
complete.
In other words, a culture with a system like astrology would have an
evolutionary advantage in the sense of Darwin. Astrology would then not
necessarily need to have anything to do with planets and stars in the
sky, more so with relatively ancient beliefs about them.
Assuming the collective unconscious would extend to matter considered
inanimate, oracles like the I Ching or Tarot could really reveal some
intentions of the collective unconscious, maybe paired with emotional
feedback which parts of the response to focus on or how to interpret it.
If so, also astrology might a priori still have natural causes, direct
influences from planets and stars, collective feedback from the universe
itself.
However, there are some arguments that speak against astrology having
dominantly natural causes from the sky. There are different astrologies
in different cultures, each of which comes in different flavours and has
different schools of thought. Besides many small examples for a
detachment from actual constellations in the sky, the most prominent one
is Pluto in Western astrology.
Pluto was at its discovery in 1930 thought to be a planet that is about
as big as planet Earth. Over the following decades it first emerged that
Pluto is much smaller, consists mainly of ice and finally in the early
21st century that Pluto is rather part of a belt of objects in similar
orbits and with similar sizes. In 20th century astrology, however, Pluto
was attributed a major role, both in mundane events and personal fates.
In my perception, part of that view did reflect reality, so that it
seems most plausible to me that astrology is largely a cultural creation
of mankind that works by collective feedback.
Now let me come back to the initial question or to how something with
the properties of a collective unconscious could come about in view of
contemporary physics.
The most immediate explanation would be that there are direct connection
between brains, mediated by some kind of "waves". But this can largely
be excluded today, except maybe at close range, in the sense that any
explanation of that sort would require new physics.
So let me focus on known physics and try to look for the most simple and
obvious explanation. What I propose is that people simply mirror who and
what they encounter in their lives inside their brains.
People's brains would thus contain "copies" of everyone they know, most
prominently and precisely of their loved ones. What exactly the neural
networks would mirror would not be consciously available to individuals
nor would it likely be easy to analyze scientifically even if the full
structure was known. But it could in principle allow people to make
fairly accurate predictions about what their loved ones would do and
when. For example, one person could possibly think of the other one
almost exactly the moment that other person would have picked up the
phone to call.
In terms of network terminology, this would be a store and forward
network instead of one where information is propagated immediately.
leads
* Mirroring the outside world is such a central part of the human psyche
that it would seem likely that nature would try to make use of any
physical effect it could.
* Experimentally distinguishing different effects that could explain
such phenomena seems to be very difficult.
* Candidates would include entangled quantum states, as in the EPR
paradox, and self-similarity as in fractals.
There would be neither senders nor receivers in these views; sharing
would be fundamentally symmetric. Would maybe different people simply
look at the same things inside?
* See "Zeitzeugnisse" under artemis for my contributions of 2002 to some
possibly new physics related to this, which make additional very
specific predictions.
* Big data and deep learning could be used to find and analyze such
collective structures, including astrological ones.
* Science is based on some implicit, but fundamentally unprovable
assumptions, like that nature is more stupid than people and repeats
stoically given the same questions. Since numbers only come to be
after a measurement, it is difficult to compare a mathematical model
of the situation before measurement with reality. So, the "Veil of
Isis" may not be easy to lift, if at all, also related to e5, etc.
--
star signs
Star signs in the Western zodiac seem to reflect transitions between
elements within Aristotle's circle.
Fire signs seem to transform from earth via fire to air, while water is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is simply a fire that transforms wood (earth) to
smoke (air). Aries as a young fire has most earth, Leo most fire,
Sagittarius most air.
In psychological astrology a wound is a central theme for the two later
fire signs Leo and Sagittarius, namely for the fisher king in Perceval
and Chiron in mythology.
In the model that wound is simply the human body (earth) that is wounded
by the fire of life, as any human body must die one day. Only what is
learned in life can be formulated in words (air) and can thus be passed
on to later generations, thus becomes immortal in a way. So there is a
transformation from mortal body to immortal mind, or from animal via
man/king to god.
Learning and getting compassion—the element water that is missing in the
transformation of the fire signs—in the process is a vital goal for
older fire signs.
Air signs seem to transform from fire via air to water, while earth is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is a cloud (air), which emits both lightning (fire)
and rain (water). Gemini as young air has most fire, Libra most air,
Aquarius most water.
Paris, who is associated with Libra, chose Aphrodite's offering of love
and marriage with Helena, the most beautiful woman in the world, hence
love (water) and thus the possibility for the missing element earth in
the form of children as fruits of love. Similarly, the opening of
Pandora's Box, associated with Aquarius, symbolizes birth.
Water signs seem to transform from earth via water to air, while fire is
missing:
[image]
The archetypal image is a river with Cancer as a source and young river
emerging from the mountains, maybe from a glacier (earth), merging with
more and more rivers and becoming a stream as Scorpio (water) and
finally flowing into the sea as Pisces from where most water eventually
evaporates again (air), by the power of the sun (fire), the missing
element and goal for the water signs.
So, the transition is, like for the fire signs, from earth to air, but
this time for a passive, female element. The river that flows down to
the sea is more fated than fire, since it is passive, it cannot resist
the movement.
But the way up in the end towards light is important, like, for example,
for the crab that bit Heracles into his ankle while he was fighting the
Hydra in the swamps, and got its place in the sky as the constellation
Cancer.
Earth signs seem to transform from fire via earth to water, while the
missing element is air:
[image]
The archetypal image is a tree with Taurus focussing on the directly
visible, but short-lived beauties of the tree that grow with the power
of the sun (fire), Capricorn restraining himself to the parts of the
tree that persist across seasons and which keep it from falling down,
namely trunk and roots, which feed it with water and the substances
diluted in it, and Virgo in between, between beauty and fate.
It is this fate or necessity, which creates minimal structures like the
branches and roots of a tree, thus order, the abstract element air.
This solves the riddle that even though Virgo is often depicted as being
very concerned about order, many Virgos do not keep their lives and
homes in strict order. It is Virgo for whom order is an issue, for
Capricorn it is a given and for Taurus it is not that important, except
a bit, as Taurus is transforming from fire to earth.
Persephone, who is associated with Virgo, was collecting flowers as a
maiden, looking at the sunny (fire) side of life, but already starting
to look down to earth, starting to wonder about how things work, what
makes the flowers grow, etc., when the earth opened up, Hades abducted
her and she became his wife, the queen of the underworld.
For all elements transitions start with a dry element and end with a wet
one. This mirrors that often when one gets older, one realizes that
things are not so clearly and reliably what they appeared to be when
first encountered.
element transition missing image
fire earth→fire→air water fire
air fire→air→water earth cloud
water earth→water→air fire river
earth fire→earth→water air tree
Maybe some day it will be possible to synthesize most properties of the
star signs formally from the transition between the elements defined by
in/out and rest/move?
Libra, for example, learns from observation of motion outside (fire) and
inside (water). Since Libra's transition is towards water, the gift of
"inner vision" is given to Teiresias by Zeus and outer vision is reduced
by Hera, except for observing omens, which are arguably just outer
reflections of collective inner intentions.
leads
* For more detailed expositions, see the longer article Elementary star
signs under artemis or my book Elementary Star Signs (2018), which are
both also available in German.
The idea dates back to 2001 and was first published in 2002.
* The four tasks of Psyche in Apuleius' The Golden Ass seem to mirror
the same transitions very beautifully and precisely, in the order
earth-water-fire-air, with goals air-fire-water-earth.
* Are there similar elemental transitions in the Chinese zodiac?
--
artemis
The oddest thing of all, the thing that most strikes us when we embark
on a story is the total void spreading out before us. The events have
occurred and lie all around us in a continuous, formless mass without
beginning or end. We can start anywhere... - Věra Linhartová
avantgarde
Welcome
[pdf-en] Welcome to my garden...
[pdf-fr] Bienvenue dans mon jardin...
[pdf-de] Willkommen in meinem Garten...
[pdf-de] What is exactphilosophy?
I Ching
[pdf-en] Elemental changes in the I Ching?
[pdf-de] Elementare Wandlungen im I Ging?
Astrology
[pdf-en] Elementary star signs
[pdf-de] Elementare Sternzeichen
[pdf-en] Deep Learning and astrology
[pdf-de] Deep Learning und Astrologie
[pdf-en] How astrology might really work?
[pdf-de] Wie Astrologie wirklich funktionieren könnte?
[pdf-en] Birth charts of Switzerland and the USA
[pdf-de] Geburtshoroskope der Schweiz und der USA
[pdf-en] Sedna times?
Paradoxes
[pdf-en] Paradox of love
[pdf-en] Paradox of measurement
[pdf-en] Paradox of solar eclipses
[pdf-en] Paradox of decoherence
[pdf-en] Paradox of π?
Dug-up Facts
[pdf-en] Birth time of Caesar Rodney
[pdf-de] Geburtszeit von Caesar Rodney
[pdf-fr] Première mention de Lilith comme second foyer de l'orbite lunaire
[pdf-en] First mention of Lilith as second focal point of the lunar orbit
[pdf-de] Erste Erwähnung von Lilith als zweitem Brennpunkt der Mondbahn
[pdf-de] Dada und Duchamps Fountain
[pdf-en] Dada and Duchamp's Fountain
[pdf-fr] Dada et la Fontaine de Duchamp
[pdf-de] Original ideas in the book "Elementary Star Signs"
[pdf-en] Eigene Ideen im Buch "Elementare Sternzeichen"
Public Relations
[pdf-en] Teslacard Postcard Action 2010
[pdf-de] Teslacard Postkarten-Aktion 2010
[pdf-en] Mountain Astrologer ads
[pdf-de] Mountain Astrologer Anzeigen
[pdf-en] Delphi for Palm OS
[pdf-de] Delphi für Palm OS
Zeitzeugnisse
[pdf-en] Discoveries revisited
[pdf-en] Web archives
[pdf-en] First mentions
Art
[pdf-de] Die neugierige Statue
--
References
* Andreas Schöter. Bipolar Change. Journal of Chinese Philosophy. Volume
35, Issue 2, p. 297-317 (June 2008).
Abstract I reconsider the natural characterization of change and
non-change that arises from the algebraic approach: this sees change
as yang in contrast to nonchange, which is yin. Following a persuasive
example from Alain Stalder, rather than consider change solely in
contrast to non-change, I develop a formal characterization of
different forms of change considered relative to each other. This
extension allows the internal structure of a change to be made
explicit in a new way, bifurcating the change into yang parts and yin
parts. I call this extended definition of change bipolar change.
Links [Preprint] [Publication]
--
Books
This website in 2017 – all web pages plus the articles Elementary star
signs and Elemental changes in the I Ching? in English and German, as
well as some Zeitzeugnisse:
exactphilosophy.net 2017
Alain Stalder
Paperback, 168 pages, US Letter
Color
ISBN 978-3-906914-01-5
More info or buy:
Lulu Amazon Barnes & Noble
Google Books Artecat Alain Stalder
This website in August 2016 – all web pages plus the article Elementary
star signs in English and German:
exactphilosophy.net 2016
Alain Stalder
Paperback, 70 pages, A4
Black & white
ISBN 978-3-033-05801-9
More info or buy:
Lulu Amazon Barnes & Noble
Google Books
See artecat.ch for generally accessible books around ideas from this
website in English and German, and more.
--
Links
* Yi Jing Algebra
Mathematical approaches to the I Ching, by Andreas Schöter.
* Greek Elements
Detailed article by John Opsopaus; from ancient Greece to Jung.
* Artecat Alain Stalder
My tiny publishing company; books and more related to this website.
* Four Elements
Inspiring book by John O'Donohue; breath, tears, hearth and sphinx.
* Energy Language
Images speaking about elementary cycles and more, by Billy Culver.
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/what-is-exactphilosophy.pdf
(Note the reference also to pataphysics... ;)
--
What is exactphilosophy ?
A new word for the dictionary that I would define maybe like this:
exactphilosophy n.
A way of doing philosophy that aims at producing scientific
hypotheses, while avoiding logical inconsistencies (or making
them explicit) and correcting factual errors whenever detected.
It avoids to make things too specific unless they are carefully
settled, influenced by ancient Asian traditions, especially by
the Tao in Chinese philosophy, and by pataphysics. It could be
imagined as floating around reality like a magic carpet, while
gently trying to settle down.
Note that this is about exactphilosophy in one word and not
capitalized.
The adjective would be _exactphilosophical_, the adverb
_exactphilosophically_, the verb _exactphilosophize_. Privately, I often
abbreviate exactphilosophy as _xphi_ or even, more rarely, _xφ_.
A little background and explanations
The fox icon of this website is related to hexagram Wei Chi (64) of the
I Ching, especially as translated and interpreted by Wilhelm/Baynes,
which mirrors the above definition of exactphilosophy closely, see next
page.
You might also be tempted to claim that “The exactphilosophy that can be
exactphilosophized is not the true/eternal/unchanging exactphilosophy.”
The concepts of exactphilosophy were also influenced by and are related
to Kant’s Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics That Will Be Able to
Present Itself as a Science, and other of Kant’s works.
Conversely, exactphilosophy is not related to The Society for Exact
Philosophy (*1970), although some of the rigorous methods developed
there might become useful also in exactphilosophy some day, or maybe
not.
Note that exactphilosophy is intended to be a word in the dictionary, a
name given to a novel concept that did previously not exist in this
form; it is not a brand or organization, hence never in competition with
anything of that kind.
Feel free to add or associate more texts from Taoism, or not. For
example, see chapter 66 of the Tao Te Ching or Zhuangzi’s “Zauberperle”
in Wilhelm’s translation to German. In that sense, the “magic carpet” in
the definition above might float above, below or within reality, and
more...
Philosophy itself is already a composed word, composed of philo and
sophia, very roughly “love of wisdom”.
I Ching – 64. Wei Chi / Before Completion (Wilhelm/Baynes)
above LI THE CLINGING, FLAME below K’AN THE ABYSMAL, WATER
This hexagram indicates a time when the transition from disorder to
order is not yet completed. The change is indeed prepared for, since all
the lines in the upper trigram are in relation to those in the lower.
However, they are not yet in their places. While the preceding hexagram
offers an analogy to autumn, which forms the transition from summer to
winter, this hexagram presents a parallel to spring, which leads out of
winter’s stagnation into the fruitful time of summer. With this hopeful
outlook the Book of Changes come to its close.
THE JUDGMENT
BEFORE COMPLETION. Success.
But if the little fox, after nearly completing the crossing,
Gets his tail in the water,
There is nothing that would further.
The conditions are difficult. The task is great and full of
responsibility. It is nothing less than that of leading the world out of
confusion back to order. But it is a task that promises success, because
there is a goal that can unite the forces now tending in different
directions. At first, however, one must move warily, like an old fox
walking over ice. The caution of a fox walking over ice is proverbial in
China. His ears are constantly alert to the cracking of the ice, as he
carefully and circumspectly searches out the safest spots. A young fox
who as yet has not acquired this caution goes ahead boldly, and it may
happen that he falls in and gets his tail wet when he is almost across
the water. Then of course his effort has been all in vain. Accordingly,
in times “before completion,” deliberation and caution are the
prerequisites of success.
THE IMAGE
Fire over water:
The image of the condition before transition.
Thus the superior man is careful
In the differentiation of things,
So that each finds its place.
When fire, which by nature flames upward, is above, and water, which
flows downward, is below, their effects take opposite directions and
remain unrelated. If we wish to achieve an effect, we must first
investigate the nature of the forces in question and ascertain their
proper place. If we can bring these forces to bear in the right place,
they will have the desired effect and completion will be achieved. But
in order to handle external forces properly, we must above all arrive at
the correct standpoint ourselves, for only from this vantage can we work
correctly.
Tao Te Ching – Chapter 66 (Legge)
That whereby the rivers and seas are able to receive the homage and
tribute of all the valley streams, is their skill in being lower than
they;–it is thus that they are the kings of them all. So it is that the
sage, wishing to be above men, puts himself by his words below them, and
wishing to be before them, places his person behind them. In this way
though he has his place above them, men do not feel his weight, nor
though he has his place before them, do they feel it an injury to them.
Therefore all in the world delight to exalt him and do not weary of him.
Because he does not strive, no one finds it possible to strive with him.
Zhuangzi – Magic Pearl (Wilhelm/me)
The lord of the Yellow Earth was strolling beyond the limits of the
world. There he came upon a very high mountain and contemplated the
circle of recurrence. There he lost his magic pearl. He sent knowledge
to find it, and did not get it back. He sent sharp eye to find it, and
did not get it back. He sent thinking to find it, and did not get it
back. Then he sent out self-oblivion. Self-oblivion found it. The lord
of the Yellow Earth said: “Strange, indeed, that exactly self-oblivion
as able to find it!”
The exactphilosophy.net logo
Note that the fox in the logo of my website is not alone, but closely
and harmo- niously accompanied by some sort of “p” comet or something,
and vice versa:
[logo]
Thanks a million for that. I call this combination “foxyfox”, by the way.
[photo]
(Alfred Jarry, Gestes et opinions du docteur Faustroll, pataphysicien)
While I'm at it...
Paradoxes
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net/paradox-of-love.pdf
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net/paradox-of-measurement.pdf
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net/paradox-of-solar-eclipses.pdf
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net/paradox-of-decoherence.pdf
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net/paradox-of-pi.pdf
(All written down this autumn, actually on a single day...)
--
Paradox of love
Is love a real connection between two lovers ? Any direct connection
becomes physically impossible according to current science as soon as
two lovers separate a few miles (and do not use technical devices to
communicate). Is love thus just a mutual illusion that exists only
separately in the two lovers, maybe even when they are physically
together ? The answer is both, in a way, as follows.
The human brain mirrors much of the outside world on the inside, in
order to be able to communicate with the outside world and to predict
how things will behave. This includes especially loved ones, which are
mirrored much more intensively and in more detail than most other beings
and things outside. Since this mirroring usually does not mean that
everything is analytically understood, but is mainly just mirrored by
“training the neural networks" in the brain, the mirror image of a loved
one allows also to predict things about a loved one that neither person
is consciously aware of, nor even that it would be stored in some
analytically structured form in their two brains at all.
In network technology, there is the term of a store-and-forward network,
a network where there are no permanent connections, but data is stored
at each node and exchanged whenever the connection becomes available
again. In the case of the two lovers, they would, of course, talk to
each other and exchange themselves with all of their senses as soon as
they meet again after having been separated, say, during the day at
work. But a store-and-forward network is still a network, as long as
there is repeated exchange.
Hence you could at least qualitatively explain why, say, the loved one
called you on the phone just when you were thinking about him or her,
etc. You would have simply mirrored each other so closely, that similar
thoughts and feelings would have occurred to both of you at the same
time.
But it goes even further: Connecting two brains in such a way
effectively creates a larger brain, potentially a larger being, the
“relationship", with maybe its own thoughts, dreams, feelings, and so
on. This is likely why relationships can never be fully understood by
the two lovers, simply because they really “go over your head", as they
involve two heads, and the dynamics between them is impossible to fully
grasp for a single brain.
All in all, some aspects of a relation can never be changed, you only
have the possibility to stay in it or leave it, or maybe change the
dynamics by adding new elements, like when you have children, which then
also become part of a larger complex of brains, the family, in this
case.
In conclusion, love would be a real connection, but not be permanently
synchronized, unless yet unconfirmed new physics would still allow it.
--
Paradox of measurement
Can measurement be scientifically investigated at all ? Let me explain.
In physics, resp. in exact sciences, in general, measurements are made,
and once they have been made, the results of these measurements are
considered to be settled with certainty, i.e. at least in principle the
measured data can be kept intact forever and practically everybody
looking at the data will agree on what it is—not necessarily on what it
means or implies, but on what it immediately is. Hence the terms “facts"
and “reality". Of course, that this is always the case is fundamentally
an assumption, but as long as no confirmed exceptions are found, that
remains de facto a fact and reality.
A bit more abstractly speaking, measurement turns the world into
numbers, "gödelizes" it, or, if you prefer, transforms it into a
sequence of bits. Scientific hypotheses usually also make use of
concepts that cannot be measured directly, but in the end only
hypotheses that reproduce the numbers of measured data become theories
in physics, or in exact sciences, in general.
Now, since before measurement, there are by definition no measured
numbers, yet, the methods of exact science cannot be applied to how the
process of measurement works, simply—repeating the first part of this
sentence in other words—because there are by definition no numbers that
can be measured during measurement, since during measurement is by
definition before measurement.
It would thus not be possible to analyze and model measurement with
scientific methods, since those require by definition measurement first.
This might, by the way, explain at bit why the measurement process in
quantum mechanics is so hard to understand, and why there are still so
many contenders. It hints maybe also at some secrets of nature that
might maybe not be so easy to access. A key assumption in science is
usually that nature is “more stupid" than the experimenters, that it
would stoically repeat the same answers to the same questions. Jung
suggested in his article about “synchronicity" that nature might answer
differently when not forced to answer with “yes" or "no", as the case in
many scientific experiments, but instead given more freedom, naming
oracles like the Chinese I Ching as an alternative. Put differently,
measurement appears to be a bit like the “Veil of Isis"—not so easy to
lift.
--
Paradox of solar eclipses
During a total solar eclipse, the moon stands between earth and sun,
completely shielding the sun from view on some spots on earth. In
contrast, the gravitational forces of sun and moon on earth simply add
up; there is no shielding by the moon. In quantum field theories, forces
are mediated by virtual particles, more specifically by bosons (even
spin). Virtual particles connecting sun and earth would thus not
interact at all with the moon in between.
How would a virtual particle mediating the force of gravitation between
sun and earth “know" that it should “not stop" at the moon in between ?
Let me explain this in more detail. First of all, there is today no
quantum field theory of gravitation, but the general argument also
works, for example, for electromagnetic forces, where there is a quantum
field theory (quantum electrodynamics, QED) that works with fantastic
precision.
A Faraday cage is a closed box of a material that conducts electricity.
If you apply an electric field outside, such that charged particles
outside the cage will be attracted or repelled, there will be no force
inside the cage. The cage would thus appear to shield what is inside
from the outside world. But this is not what immediately happens. On the
surface of the cage, positive and negative charges separate such that
they generate an electric field that exactly compensates the one imposed
from outside, so that all adds up to zero inside the cage.
Speaking in terms of virtual particles, virtual photons in this case,
there would still be virtual photons connecting the source of the
electric field with any charge inside the cage, thus exerting an
electric force on each such charge, but there would also always be
virtual photons connecting the surface of the cage to the same charges
inside, so that forces would cancel inside.
What makes this paradox, is that virtual particles interact heavily with
matter, but are also able to “travel" completely undisturbed through
other matter. I wrote “travel" in double quotes because virtual
particles can “travel" faster than the speed of light “behind the
scenes", which means that which way they “travel" depends on the
observer, more precisely, on the relative speed of the observer relative
to the setup. This is simply a consequence of special relativity; see
e.g. Richard Feynman’s article “The reason for antiparticles" (1987).
Virtual particles remind of the “spooky" actions at a distance that can
instantaneously (faster than the speed of light) correlate measurements
in quantum mechanics, as first brought up by Einstein, Podolski and
Rosen (1935). Or think of the Aharonov-Bohm effect, where there is zero
electric field, but a directly unobservable non-zero electric potential,
and an observable effect.
A quantum theory of gravitation would presumably feature spin 2
gravitons, implying no negative masses (“charges"), hence not even
apparent shielding.
--
Paradox of decoherence
I combine several well-known Gedankenexperiments, namely the one by
Einstein, Podolski and Rosen (EPR), plus Bell’s Inequalities, and
Schrödinger’s Cat, as well as Wigner’s Friend, into a new
Gedankenexperiment, that I essentially first devised in January 2003 for
a Usenet post to the sci.physics.research newsgroup. Archived here:
https://www.classe.cornell.edu/spr/2003-01/msg0047545.html
*From: Alain Stalder <astalder@exactphilosophy.net>
*Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
*Subject: Re: Some questions on decoherence and QM.
*Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:30:49 +0000 (UTC)
*Message-ID: <astalder-A850F5.13133713012003@news.bluewin.ch>
In article <3E1C9025.A2D5A6CB@uni-essen.de>,
Urs Schreiber <Urs.Schreiber@uni-essen.de> wrote:
> Frank Hellmann wrote:
> > A measurement of the quantum system described by rho in generally still
> > has a propability for both classically exclusive states though, so we
> > still have a superposition of classically exclusive states.
>
> The last phrase must read: "a *mixture* of classical states".
>
> Using the density operator one is bound to talk about
> statistics only. Decoherence cannot and does not explain "how"
> a system chooses from the possible outcomes a specific one
> when we measure it. Decoherence only explains how the "quantum
> probability" becomes a "classical probability", very roughly
> speaking, but it still only gives probabilities.
It is worthwhile to explain what exactly "classical" means in
this context. This is maybe most easily seen if Schroedinger’s
Gedankenexperiment is combined with the experiment for testing
Bell’s Inequality:
Two entangled photons fly in opposite directions and then each
pass through polarization filters. A photon detector after each
filter either kills or does not kill a cat on each side,
depending on whether the respective photon has passed through
the polarization filter.
Decoherence tells us that each cat quickly ends up in a state
with a density matrix that is practically diagonal. Or, more
loosely put, the cat is "either dead or alive, but not both".
Can we conclude that whether the cat is dead or alive is already
determined, that an experimentator who looks inside to discover
either a dead or a living cat will only note what was already
determined before ?
No, because Bell’s Inequality excludes any local hidden variable
theories in which for both cats it would already be determined
whether the cats are dead or alive. In other words, "classical"
means in this context only that you cannot do interference with
Schroedinger’s cats, i.e. that they statistically behave like
measured cats, but not that measurement has already occured
through decoherence.
Hence some of the "strangeness" of quantum mechanics remains,
especially if you modify the above Gedankenexperiment to include
what is typically called "Wigner’s Friend". Replace each cat by
an experimentator who looks at the detector, and place two other
experimentators outside the respective labs.
Now, when does measurement occur ? When the inner experimentators
look at the detectors, or when the outer experimentators open the
doors to the respective labs and ask the guys inside about what
they have measured ? At least decoherence tells us that we cannot
distinguish experimentally between the two possibilities, because
in both cases all experimentators behave statistically classical.
In conclusion, decoherence is a big step towards understanding
measurement in quantum mechanics, but does not go all the way,
at least not yet.
Alain Stalder
The more recent article “Quantum theory cannot consistently describe the
use of itself" by Frauchiger and Renner (2018) shows that at least in
some cases quantum mechanics as a universal theory of how the world
evolves can lead to logical inconsistencies regarding measured data from
the point of view of different observers. In other words, if that proves
to be true, decoherence could certainly not explain measurement in
quantum mechanics in general.
In a way, this would have already been clear from my Gedankenexperiment:
Just singling out some quantum coherence that would decay independently
on both sides, except the one that is bound to remain correlated, does
not make sense. In my view, since science generally assumes that there
is one “reality"— otherwise published theories and measured data would
not be the same for all, i.e. the whole setup would be inconsistent—the
only remaining solution might be that there really are connections at a
“speed" faster than light behind the scenes, i.e. also that the future
would have an influence on the past, albeit only within the limits of
the strange things that quantum theory permits.
But the previous sentence is, of course, not really news in this
generality. In any case, I hope that my Gedankenexperiment might help
future research in quantum theory a bit, if only as inspiration.
--
Paradox of π ?
I wrote down the four paradoxes about love, measurement, solar eclipses
and decoherence earlier today, while almost all ideas go back way
longer. I have purposely left many things open in those earlier
articles, in the hope to maybe spur the imagination of readers a bit
more, and also because I might rather be interested in different things
than pursuing them in the future.
My official take on this “fifth" paradox is that it is just wild
speculation:
Long-range “telepathic" connections with polarized spin 1 symmetry,
passing unperturbed through any matter, mediated maybe by selective
perception of virtual photons or the like ? Unofficially, “eppur si
muove"?
Such connections, especially between two lovers, would be felt most
strongly if both persons would look into the direction of each other or
into opposite directions, and gradually less strongly if not. Also, the
feeling would be maximal if the symmetry planes of their heads would be
aligned, e.g. if both were lying with their heads in the same direction
or any opposite ones, and gradually weaker if not. The feeling would get
weaker with more distance between the two, but apparently not decay
quadratically with distance, and no matter in between, not even earth
itself, would make a clear difference. The explanation might be that
virtual photons, or maybe other spin 1 bosons, would mediate the felt
connection, hence the symmetry of polarized light.
Adliswil, 19 October 2018 π.
And this longer article, aimed at a broader, contemporary public,
but maybe also showing a bit what "exactphilosophy" can reveal if
done for a while...? ;)
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/how-astrology-might-really-work.pdf
(Also available in German; emerged in early October this year.)
--
How astrology might really work ?
Nowadays scientists and astrologers live in almost completely separated
worlds. I am a physicist and versed in both. From where I am standing,
the following would seem to be the most plausible, as I will expose
step-by-step afterwards:
* All people, even those who consciously do not believe in astrology,
would be noticeably influenced in their behavior by astrology.
Nowadays, it should also be possible to experimentally confirm this.
* The effect of astrology, at least the way it is used today, would
immediately have practically nothing to do with the planets and stars
in the sky. Astrology would rather be a collective effect,
unconsciously created by practically all people on earth.
* This would imminently be a "bitter pill” for many astrologers and
scientists, since each party would in the end have to give up a basic
assumption in order to return to a jointly accepted world view.
Conversely, this would also be a chance, not least since today
astrology is often practiced by women and science often by men.
* On the path to the above view of astrology, I can also make other
concepts more amenable to science again: Love, religion and deities,
telepathy, world soul, collective unconscious, etc. In a certain way,
the path is even more significant than the goal in this text.
* In the end, fortunately a lot remains fundamentally open, also whether
there might maybe still be direct correlations between "heaven and
earth”, as basically presumed in astrology.
I will first sketch how the human brain mirrors the world in its inside,
resp. in the network of its neurons. Building on that, I will describe
what happens when two people love each other, and then expand this to
more people, and many different concepts which have emerged over
millennia, until I get to astrology. Finally, I will briefly explore
additional possibilities a bit more freely.
Mirrors
In the head of every human being there is a copy of the world, or at
least of part of the world. It contains fellow humans, other living
beings and many things, plus how they behave, also in interaction with
oneself. Everyone can imagine, say, an acquaintance inside, even if that
person in currently not in view, and often also how that person would
behave in certain situations.
This mirroring of the world to the inside, into the human brain, is what
essentially allows people (and animals) to live, to deal with the world,
without e.g. quickly falling down somewhere.
[image]
A key point regarding this mirroring is now that it is often essentially
only mirroring, but not consciously understanding how that which is
mirrored exactly ticks—let me explain this sentence more thoroughly in
the following.
In the brain, billions of nerve cells (neurons) are connected to each
other. Today, such neural networks can be replicated also on computers,
to a certain degree. For example, such a virtual neural network can be
"fed” with millions of digital photos and drawings of the digits from 0
to 9. That way you can train the network, until becomes able to often
correctly name the digit on an image it had never seen before.
[image]
Does that now mean that the network has understood what it is doing and
how it is doing it ? Or that it would even be able to explain that ?
This seems rather unlikely to be the case, it is probably rather as
colloquially with riding a bicycle. You can learn it, but afterwards you
do not really know what you do.
A concrete example: Ride quickly on a bicycle and then—very carefully
and gently (!)—pull a little bit on the left side on the handlebar, but
really pull only horizontally. This is what one would naively think what
one does when one wants to take a left turn. But this is not what
happens experimentally, instead rather a force results that wants to
tilt the bicycle to the right (!)—hence please take caution if you try!
What you have to do instead to take a left turn, is to also press
somewhat onto left side of the handlebar vertically from the top, which
has physically to do with the fact that the rolling wheels are also a
spinning top. But what is essential in this example, is that a trained
neural network does not imply that the laws of the outer world are
somehow analytically accessibly stored in the head. In the head there is
thus rather an often just as incomprehensible copy of the world, not an
analytical model of it.
More psychologically speaking, unconscious content in the brain would
often not be present in analytically resolved form. A trauma would have
rather simply "burnt” itself into the structure of the brain than that
the brain would have understood its structure. In this sense, it is
probably often not correct to speak about bringing up unconscious
content into consciousness. I would rather be so that hypotheses about
the inner structure would lead to an inner reaction whenever they mirror
the inner structure well. That would thus not be much different from how
a scientist postulates hypotheses about the outer world and then
compares them experimentally with it.
I hope this was now not to complicated to understand. Brief, the brain
often rather mirrors the world, creates a copy, than it really
understands it. That way also structures get into the brain which the
person cannot consciously understand. This could, by the way, even go so
far that laws of nature of which no scientist is yet aware would be
mirrored inside, too.
But isn’t one person alone and abstractly "the world” rather boring ?
Let’s look at two lovers instead, and what maybe goes on in their heads.
Love
Is love a real connection between two people ?
Of course, it often appears to be so, for example, when the loved one
calls you exactly when you think about him or her. Only, scientifically
no connection is possible when, for example, the two lovers work at
different places in the city during the day, and they do not use
technical devices (e.g. cell phones) in order to communicate with each
other.
[image]
It could of course be that today’s science is wrong in that respect,
resp. that such connections really exist but could not be confirmed,
yet. But I will totally exclude this for the moment, since how brains
work alone can already explain a lot. But I will come back to such
possibilities towards the end of this text.
In any case, the two lovers of the example above will usually still feel
clearly in love and connected when physically separated during the day.
Is their love thus only purely an illusion, which only exists inside the
respective head of each lover? Would love maybe even only be an
individual illusion, in each of them separately, when they are
physically together ?
Well, when you love somebody, you usually like to fill your brain with
any available impressions from that person. That way inside a mirror
image of the person emerges, which probably even also encompasses a lot
which oneself does not consciously understand, and also the loved person
not necessarily consciously knows or understands, but which will be
stored in the structures in the brain in a rather unconsciously mirrored
way. That way one could thus, for example, possibly sometimes also
instinctively predict in total isolation when the loved one will call.
In network technology there is the notion of a "store and forward’
network, a network in which information cannot flow all the time, but
only at certain times, and is stored locally in between, just like when
the two lovers meet again in the evening after work and talk to each
other, and so on. But it remains a network, as long as the two keep
exchanging information again and again.
But so far this does maybe not fully mirror what happens with lovers,
yet—or also in families, and less intensively with friends and
acquaintances. In principle, the two brains of the two lovers connect
and form a single brain. Hence almost certainly also superordinate
structures emerge, which overlap between the physical vessels in the two
heads, thus forming a larger neural network than could exist in a single
brain.
Such a larger compound of nerve cells could in principle be able to
develop independent wishes, dreams, thoughts, etc., hence a relationship
could go beyond what the two lovers would be able to fully capture
individually. This mirrors maybe already often how it is in a relation:
often beautiful, but analytically often not fully seizable. In a way,
you can only decide whether you want to stay in a relation or not, but
not fundamentally change its nature.
This has now, of course, been quite speculative in detail. The brains of
the lovers would still be comparably more separated from each other that
the nerve cells in the individual brains from each other. And yet, as a
"store and forward” network, and by storing most shared information in
parallel on both sides, the above possibility still seems, to a certain
degree, most plausible to me.
If two lovers were separated a long time from each other, many things
could develop separately into different directions, but not necessarily,
if the two really hang on to it. Hence it would be difficult in practice
to distinguish experimentally whether the two are really permanently
connected or not, since both possibilities would manifest almost
identically.
Collective beings
[image]
If you now extrapolate such connections created from mutual mirroring,
like between two lovers, to more people, like family, acquaintances,
village, city, region, country, even the whole earth, including also
many animals, different "collective brains” would emerge at nested
scales. What would hold these compounds of brains together would be,
depending on how you look at it, the power of love or mutual mirroring
of each other, just like two lovers. There would thus be a collective
brain for each family, then, building on that, one per community, and so
on, up to country and earth, while, of course, these entities would
overlap in many and diverse ways in practice.
The idea is now again that such collective brains would a priori be
quite able to have independent thoughts and feelings, hence could feel
joy, fear and anger, could have plans, dreams and a will, etc.—simply
everything that also a single human being is able to think and feel. But
it could also go beyond that, because more connected nerve cells with
more stored information would potentially be, just like in a relation of
two lovers, a "superbrain”, which would be able to have thoughts which a
single human could never grasp, just like a single nerve cell in the
human brain would hardly ever be able to really grasp the thoughts which
it helps to process in the human brain.
This is maybe best conveyed as follows. Ants often form trails, which
connect sources of food with their nest. Only, the individual ant does
not really know that there is a trail, it simply follows the chemical
scents, and, if you observe it, often not in a straight line, as one
might think, but instead with a lot of going left and right, and
sometimes also with shortly turning back. In the small brain of the ant
there appears thus to be no concept of a "trail”, but only that
following the chemical scents is good and not following them is bad,
resp. probably that the ant typically feels more happy when it follows
the scents than not, hence that the scents makes the ant happy.
[image]
Of course it is questionable whether such a compound of brains could
really be more intelligent than individual humans, since the connections
between the brains could overall only be much less intensive than inside
a brain between nerve cells. But in any case such a collective brain
would have a different perspective, thus something similar to an "ant
trail” would be more easily accessible to the collective brain than to
an individual brain, if only because the "ant trail” is a collective
concept.
The analogy with the ants might also mirror how a collective superbrain
might be able to "guide” individual people, namely with something
equivalent to a "scent trail” for the ants. More about this fundamental
idea later.
In the immediate sense, the scent trail is created and refreshed by the
ants themselves, i.e. the physical environment is definitely also in
play with regard to collective beings. Already in a single human brain
chemistry plays an important role, and information is also stored
outside the body, in books, photos, films, or also in everyday objects,
clothing and architecture, simply in everything that is created and
changed by human beings. That way a single thing, or one replicated into
many copies, can act on many people and help to form them. Thus
collective brains would also be collective living beings with a "body”.
Now to various cultural concepts that emerged over millenia and which
strongly resemble ideas of a collective being.
Religion
The idea of or the belief in higher beings, which are often immortal and
invisible, hence in goddesses and gods, probably exists in humanity
already since primeval times. A collective being formed by all believers
would probably also live much longer than individual people, as long as
believers keep having faithful offspring. Quite similarly in human
brains nerve cells are replaced with new ones during life, but
personality is still roughly maintained during life. And such a
collective being would also not be directly visible in the world, resp.
it would reflect in almost anything, which would also often fit with
deities.
If previous argumentations were accurate, would there now really be
gods, if in a certain way "only” created by the respective believers ?
The answer would essentially have to be yes. Because, if you admit that
individual persons exist, even if they "only” come to be from single,
interconnected neutrons, then there would also have to be goddesses and
gods, which would "only” come to be from individual, interconnected
brains, resp. the neurons in them.
Religions can be very helpful, can help believers to experience life as
deeper, more beautiful, richer, more meaningful than it is to
non-believers, not dissimilar to how lovers experience love; and
religions can also be quite generally useful for society and living
together. Conversely, of course, also many wars and crimes have come
from religious backgrounds.
Would deities maybe all in all rather be more like the ones in Greek
mythology: Not always without fail, but also with human traits, plus
maybe even some, which might even surreally surpass humans, in good and
in bad ?
Earth soul
Greek philosopher Plato coined the concept of a world soul (lat. anima
mundi, gr.psyché tou pantós), and there are similar concepts in
different cultures. Behind that concept lies also the fundamental
question of whether the cosmos is overall alive or not. According to
today’s science there are animals and plants, plus some other lifeforms,
but a rock would be inanimate, and also by far the largest part of the
cosmos.
It could, of course, still be so that more things would be alive than
assumed today. As already mentioned, there are interactions between
living beings and inanimate matter. Living beings consist apparently of
exactly the same building materials (atoms, etc.) as inanimate matter.
But all in all, such a world soul in the larger sense would require
assumptions that would go beyond the ones made so far, so let me also
come back to this toward the end of this text. A world soul in the sense
of a compound of all living beings on this earth would, however, most
likely exist under the assumptions made so far. I will simply call it
"earth soul” in the following.
For this earth soul, the self would be earth and the environment would
be the "sky” resp. the cosmos around the earth, with sun, moon, planets
and stars. Would this earth soul now simply admire what it sees outside
of itself, and like to mirror itself in it, like in a lover, or like in
a mother or father, as creator ?
[image]
In any case, in such a rather lonely situation, without any other
inhabited planet in sight, would there not be a very big wish that what
happens outside in heaven would also mirror on earth, if only to feel
more connected, less lonely ?
This reminds, of course, already strongly of the astrological mantra "as
above so below”. But first to another concept, which is likely quite
significant around astrology, to Jung’s "collective unconscious”.
Collective unconscious
Carl Gustav Jung went beyond Sigmund Freud by postulating that
unconscious processes in the psyche could also be of a collective
nature, probably based on the observation that certain "archetypical”
themes keep surfacing very similarly again and again even to mutual
strangers, in dreams as well as more seldomly in real-life experiences.
Under the assumption of collective brains, the collective unconscious
would simply be that part of collective thoughts and feelings, which is
(at least most of the time) hidden from individual people, hence is not
conscious to them, or even not directly stored in individual brains, but
would only indirectly come to be in the collective compound, like the
ant trail, which probably also does not exist in individual ants.
All people, and also many animals, dream at night in their sleep. Could
it now maybe even be so that dreams would reflect collective thoughts
more than individual ones ? Or could it maybe even be that a collective
brain would sort of lay out its plans like a "scent trail” for dreamers,
such that the affected person, after waking up, would more likely occupy
him- or herself with certain themes, or would do things, which would
rather fit the plans of the collective brain? And similarly with
particularly impressive real-life experiences ?
In any case, such a collective unconscious, or also generally a
collective brain, would often have the character of "fate” or "destiny”,
roughly in the sense in which Liz Greene cites Jung in her book "The
Astrology of Fate” with "Free will is the ability to do gladly that
which I must do.”.
In other words, if you behave according to the wishes of the collective
brains at different scales, thus family, country, religion, beekeeper
club, etc., this would be honored by the surroundings with a feeling of
happiness in exchange. You would thus be fundamentally free as an
individual to do whatever you want, but, as a social being, you would
also respect your surroundings, and there especially not only what is
conscious to individual people in your surroundings, but also respect
unconscious collective wishes, which could very well be diametrically
opposite to immediate conscious surroundings, for example, as the "black
sheep” of a family or a village.
The collective unconscious would thus also have a "fated”, guiding side,
resp. collective beings would quite generally have a guiding influence
on individuals and also on smaller collective beings. And, of course,
collective thoughts which reflect in dreams could appear as precognition
of the future or of remote events to individuals.
All in all, it is difficult to distinguish between collective "brains”,
"beings”, "souls” and "unconsciouses” without more precise assumptions.
Astrology
My ansatz how astrology would work is the following:
Unconsciously all people "believe” in astrology, resp. are part of a
collective brain that believes in astrology, resp. at least considers
it useful and precious.
Astrology, resp. its different forms in different cultures, would thus
be a view that the earth soul, resp. its smaller collectives, would have
of the world, and which they would let influence individuals.
Immediately the strongest influence would thus come from the astrology
of one’s own culture, from other astrologies rather less, while, of
course, nowadays cultures often also mix.
Many modern people will now probably ask: Why would such an archaic
belief have persisted also in all the many people who consciously think
so little of astrology and often know almost nothing about it in detail?
What exactly would be useful or meaningful in that ?
Maybe primarily this: Thanks to astrology it would be achieved that also
in small groups of people there would be different characters, with
different ways of approaching the tasks that live poses every day. Since
then different approaches would be tried, on average presumably a
solution would be found more quickly than if people would be
considerably more similar to each other. Astrology would thus have an
evolutionary advantage if the sense of Darwin; this is why it would also
even have survived Enlightenment almost unperturbedly, as far as it
concerns the collective, unconscious part.
In addition, during the normal course of a year, for each month the
assigned star sign and its attitude towards life would fit well with
activities in a primarily traditional agricultural environment, which
dominated e.g. in Europe during centuries. For example, towards the end
of summer (Virgo) people would like to work carefully and precisely, and
sort things, as in the past often useful for bringing in the harvest,
and then, at the beginning of autumn (Libra), they would rather like to
exchange parts of the harvest with others in trade, in order to obtain
balanced stocks of goods for the winter. Until recently, this would thus
have been an additional evolutionary advantage, at least compared to
other collective views that would mirror nature less directly. Of
course, this is only true on the northern hemisphere and with Western
Astrology, not e.g. with sidereal Indian astrology.
With fate it would be more or less like quoted from Jung above: People
would be fundamentally free as individuals, but, as social beings, they
would be driven by often unconscious collective thoughts and wishes, so
that, wanting to feel happy and fulfilled, they would still most often
find their way in life on the paths laid out by astrology, almost like
the ants on their ant trail, with often as much back and forth, and
sometimes even going the opposite way.
But where would the stars be in that? Well, in this picture they would
in the immediate sense actually have no influence, instead "only”
collective views about them, which do not always mirror the sky
accurately. From a collective perspective, the earth soul, or parts of
it, would very well have its views about cosmos and reflecting it, but
it could also be wrong at times.
The prime example for this is planet Pluto, which had only been
considered a planet during a certain time, from 1930 until 2006, when it
has been, scientifically consistently, reclassified, to a so-called
"dwarf planet”.
Now, in the view of astrology, Pluto would have a strong influence on
human fates, and also on many collective events, including world
politics, and so on. In my view that was also actually the case in the
20th century, thus these forces were effectively acting on people, and
probably still continue to do so now, to a somewhat reduced degree.
Pluto was also the first planet discovered in the USA. Uranus and
Neptune were still discovered in the old world, in Europe. Hence behind
Pluto there is also a lot of the collective that the USA forms
consciously and unconsciously, which, of course, also includes many
people world-wide beyond the USA. Hence it is not astonishing that
exactly scientists from the USA and other English speaking regions
initially objected most to the idea that Pluto would now suddenly no
longer be a planet.
But I do not want to talk about politics here; instead I just wanted to
illustrate that astrology really has an effect in daily life, at large
and small scale, but also certainly deviates far enough from the reality
in cosmos outside of the earth that an immediate symmetry can rather be
excluded.
Birds of pray can, by the way, see planet Uranus in the sky with the
naked eye, and possibly also Neptune or the asteroid Ceres. Had the
earth soul maybe already been conscious of these celestial bodies, only
Pluto came as a surprise ? But even then, for Pluto there would still
have been the freedom to steer, which name the new planet gets, and thus
a meaning that could still fit with some events that happened before its
discovery ?
And would the three pyramids at Giza maybe, as suspected by Robert
Bauval, intentionally mirror the three stars of the Belt of Orion
(Osiris), only that this had not been conscious to the ancient
Egyptians, but "only” unconsciously collectively to all Egyptians, and
hence the sky is not perfectly mirrored ?
[image]
There are more examples, where astrology does not truly mirror the sky,
like that the moon is typically drawn geocentrically on horoscope
charts, hence where it would be seen from the center of earth, not from
the respective point on the surface of earth. And, of course, the
division of the zodiac into 12 segments of equal size, by now completely
separated from constellations due to precession, is not something that
mirrors directly in the sky, and a division into 12 segments seems also
rather to reflect the somewhat more than 12 lunar months in a solar
year, than that it would immediately have natural causes. In China there
are quite different constellations, for example, a division into 28
"mansions” on the ecliptic, where the moon would be visiting a mansion
each day of a lunar month.
Astrologers within a cultural circle usually share many methods and
views, but besides that often also very often use further, quite diverse
methods. Think only of the many different house systems, or orbs for
aspects. How could such diversity ever mirror people ?
In order that a client goes to a particular astrologer, he or she would
probably have to somehow feel mirrored, maybe less in the astrologer,
but rather that the astrologer would resemble a desired solution ? A
client might come from an environment where mainly the Koch house system
would be used. Should an astrological counselor now rather keep using
her or his favorite house system, or in this case rather use Koch houses
? Or both ?
Koch houses would probably better fit the environment of the client,
would thus rather mirror where the collective brains around his or her
environment would want to move the client to. Conversely, the individual
has likely still also a free will, in order to at least be able to
switch surroundings, sort of like changing the "tribe” into a cultural
environment with a different house system, where then maybe different
collective brains could make a rather more desired life possible. Hence
also here client and astrologer would have fundamentally much room to
move, to "gladly do that which they must do”.
Certain methods and views in astrology would be quite generally valid,
other methods only in surroundings where they would have supporters.
This would then often be quite similar to going to a general
psychologist of a certain school of thought or to a priest of a certain
religion. Also there a lot would often only help if it "fits” the
client.
Summary
This has thus far been quite a conservative approach to these things,
resp. it was conservative concerning the physical assumptions, thus for
example without natural communication channels between brains at large
distance, short, entirely from the viewpoint of the current state of
natural sciences.
This resulted roughly in the following picture, which seems to be
qualitatively plausible, but, of course, so far quantitatively, and
whether it is correct at all, remains formally unproven: There would be
collectives of two and more brains with independent thoughts, wishes,
dreams, feelings, etc., and these would influence the fates of people on
earth. A direct influence of planets and stars would however not
immediately exist; in particular, there are clear indications that the
majority of causes of astrology would be purely located in views down on
earth, but would often also be helpful in living together every day.
Tiny outlook
Even if the earth soul, as defined further above, could sometimes be
completely wrong, like with Pluto as a planet, it could still have
mirrored certain laws of the cosmos, even some which are not known or
conscious to anybody, similar to how a person who can ride a bicycle has
unconsciously mirrored physical laws into her or his brain.
How it appears at the moment, the milky way is not buzzing with planets
with intelligent life on them, which would emit radio signals, etc. Is
thus the architecture of our own solar system so special that in it also
part of the secret of life reflects ? Without a relatively large moon
for such a relatively small planet as earth, the earth’s axis would not
be stable and life would presumably never have emerged.
Quantum mechanics knows entanglement of quantum states even across great
distances, as, for example, in the well-known thought experiment of
Einstein, Podolski and Rosen (short EPR). Especially in the "New Age”
movement there are many approaches in which the whole world would be
interconnected that way, without, however, getting fully specific. Or
Jung, who at the beginning of the 1950s, at that time often in close
contact with physicist Wolfgang Pauli, postulated the concept of an
"acausal synchronicity”, was probably also substantially influenced by
thoughts about such quantum effects.
This is a wide field, where I could add quite few more things. Let it
suffice here, that you could then also explain oracles more easily,
hence events where randomness appears to take part, as with Tarot cards
or with the coins or yarrow stalks of the Chinese I Ching. Because
otherwise collective brains would "only” have a possibility to influence
things by focussing the people involved in the oracle after the random
outcome on certain aspects of the oracle text, but there would then be
now way to influence the result of the oracle itself.
There would be still another, very simple fundamental explanation for
things which resemble each other in big and small sizes or at the same
size at different places, namely that the same laws of nature could
bring forth similar structures even without immediate connections. This
concept is called self-similarity. For example in the "Mandelbrot set”,
a mathematical figure that results from a simple equation, you can find
the same structure not only in the large whole (left image), but also
many times in very similar, smaller form, if you zoom in at the border
(example to the right).
[image]
A practical idea regarding how to deal scientifically with collective
phenomena: Instead of trying to want to understand them analytically,
maybe just try and see if they can maybe be mirrored in artificial
neural networks? Hence, for example, feed a neural network with data
that emerged at known times at known places, so that you can also derive
astrological information. If such a neural network would then become
able to derive the creation time of undated data, or at least limit
times significantly, that would be a proof of astrology.
A key assumption in astrology, namely that the situation when something
starts, like a human life, an organisation, a country, etc., would shape
its fate, could apparently not be directly derived as a physical effect
in any of the explanations proposed here. Could a key element maybe
still be missing ?
This article has essentially emerged in the first week of October 2018.
Thanks a lot for all the feedback, greatly appreciated.. :)
Some things where I feel like commenting on right now, others maybe
at some other time, or maybe not, just contemplate, maybe...
But thanks again :)
{:-]))) wrote:
: I don't know, now, how a newborn sees the world.
: If a brand new baby sees, cognizes, without names, 10k-things.
I personally have a memory of a memory of the first image I saw at
birth. The original memory would be from birth, the secondary from the
age of 3 or 4, when I first started to have a conscious mind. By the age
of 5 or so, I was not so sure about the original memory any more, but
still remembered that I had that memory at 3 or 4. The memory was what
must have been the ceiling in the room I was born, white with lights, I
guess rather long lights.
In that sense, if such a memory of a memory can be trusted, I guess
already then there was an "I" that was perceiving/observing the world
and very likely also with an inner imaginary world. Maybe?
But yes, in contemporary scientific view, a lot kicks in specifically
after birth, and as far as I know how exactly the brain develops is hard
to separate from the environment, so...
{:-]))) wrote:
: >I present a way of looking at the world here. That way or idea is not
: >something that can be proven.
:
: As pi may have pointed out, how exact can it be then, may be
: a kind of a question one could ask the ore as it knots.
I am not sure if the words are so important. Literally exactphilosophy
would mean something along "exact love of wisdom" (three things).
I like the Groucho Marx quote (probably said in a sketch):
"Those are my principles; if you don't like them, well I have others."
Is "exactphilosophy" more like yin-yang than just "philosophy", maybe,
because "exact" contrasts "philosophy", balances the opposites, gets
things "rolling" in cycles, maybe, without destroying much of the 1?
{:-]))) wrote:
: Newsgrouping, here, is a form of fun for me. A hobby horse
: of sorts of course to horse a round on a merry go going.
Here's another article from my website, about the origins of "Dada",
and modern art with "readymades" / "objects trouvees" / etc. A dada
in french is the same as a hobby, also going back to horses.
For all that it appears, all of the "billion $ industry" in modern
art goes back to a joke by Marcel Duchamp et. al. for April 1, 1917...
And, quoting Hugo Ball about dada from the article:
"The child's first sound expresses the primitiveness, the beginning at
zero, in our art. We could not find a better word."
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/dada-and-duchamps-fountain.pdf
(Also available in French and German)
--
Dada and Duchamp's Fountain
[image]
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/fontainebleue.jpg
Duchamp's 'Fountain' has a very direct relation to Dada: A 'dada' in
french is a horse in children's language, also rocking and hobby horse
and hobby, and appears in 'à dada sur mon bidet', the french version of
playing gee-gees, and 'bidet' is a little horse, as well as the sanitary
fitment, which strongly resembles Duchamp's 'Fountain', not least
because of the usual meaning of 'fountain'.
Details
(For many facts surrounding Duchamp's 'Fountain', see "Pilfered
Pissoire? A Response to the Allegation that Duchamp Stole his Famous
Fountain", Jesse Prinz, artbouillon, 20 Nov 2014.)
The name 'Dada' for the art movement originated in 1916 in the Zürich
flat of Hugo Ball and Emmy Hennings in company of Richard Huelsenbeck
(Huelsenbeck, transition, No. 2 (May 1927), pp. 134-135):
I was standing behind Ball looking into the dictionary on his knees.
Ball's finger pointed to the first letter of each word descending the
page. Suddenly I cried halt. I was struck by a word I had never heard
before, the word dada.
'Dada,' Ball read, and added: 'It is a children's word meaning hobby-
horse'. At that moment I understood what advantages the word held for
us.
'Let's take the word dada,' I said. 'It's just made for our purpose.
The child's first sound expresses the primitiveness, the beginning at
zero, in our art. We could not find a better word.'
Independently of whether things took part exactly that way, the primary
association of Dada seems to be with the french 'dada', which is
children's language for horse, including rocking and hobby horse, and
figuratively also means hobby.
The nursery rhyme 'à dada sur mon bidet' corresponds to the english 'to
play gee-gees', hence where a child "rides" on the thighs of an adult.
The word 'bidet' stands originally and until today for a kind of little
horse. Today's better known meaning as a sanitary fitment with some kind
of "fountain" in it, originates from its original appearance that
resembled a little horse, for example in 'La toilette intime ou la fleur
effeuillée' by Louis-Léopold Boilly (1761-1845):
[image]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABoilly_La_Toilette_intime_ou_la_Rose_effeuillée.jpg
Duchamp had submitted 'Fountain' with help from his friends towards 1
April 1917 for the New York art exhibition. For all that it appears as
Dada in the sense not least of the french 'dada'.
{:-]))) wrote:
: As I understand the paradigm, virtual particles are not real
: other than being mathematical entities.
Has anybody ever seen a (non-virtual) electron or neutrino, and so on?
All of these things are mental constructs that, combined with logic
(math), are mapped to immediate experience. There is no fundamental
difference between a virtual particle and a real particle, especially as
virtual particles would mediate forces, and how would you measure
anything without forces, anyways?
But, let me rest things from my side now...
I just needed to get this idea out...
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/the-pyramids-and-the-four-elements.pdf
Here is an ASCII copy of the content of the above document:
The pyramids and the four elements?
On the morning of Saturday, 15 December 2018, around 8 AM, I had the
idea to relate dry/wet and hot/cold to the heating and drying course of
the sun around one of the pyramids at Giza, just like for the original
image for yin-yang in China as the shady and sunny sides of a hill [1].
Eureka!
[image]
[In the PDF linked above, the image shows a top view of a pyramid;
top edge labelled "N" and "water", left edge labelled "W" and "earth",
bottom edge labelled "S" and "fire", right edge labelled "E" and "air";
top-left corner labelled "cold", bottom-left corner labelled "dry",
bottom-right corner labelled "hot", top-right corner labelled "wet".]
[Here is an approximate fixed-with font ASCII rendering of that image]
water
N
cold ----------- wet
|\ /|
| \ / |
earth W | x | E air
| / \ |
|/ \|
dry ------------ hot
S
fire
[End of ASCII rendering]
This would fit well with the fascination of the ancient Greeks with
ancient Egypt, from the first philosopher Thales who reportedly measured
the height of the pyramids in Giza by comparing the length of their
shadows with his own shadow, via the tetractys of the Pythagoreans up to
Aristotle’s description of the four elements in terms of tangible
properties dry/wet and hot/cold.
(Flip dry-hot and cold-wet above, or attribute elements to corners
instead ?)
[1] Richard Wilhelm in the introduction of I Ching or Book of Changes.
[photo of the two largest pyramids at Giza]
[End of document]
I just needed to get this idea out...
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/the-pyramids-and-the-four-elements.pdf
Here is an ASCII copy of the content of the above document:
The pyramids and the four elements?
On the morning of Saturday, 15 December 2018, around 8 AM, I had the
idea to relate dry/wet and hot/cold to the heating and drying course of
the sun around one of the pyramids at Giza, just like for the original
image for yin-yang in China as the shady and sunny sides of a hill [1].
Eureka!
[image]
[In the PDF linked above, the image shows a top view of a pyramid;
top edge labelled "N" and "water", left edge labelled "W" and "earth",
bottom edge labelled "S" and "fire", right edge labelled "E" and "air";
top-left corner labelled "cold", bottom-left corner labelled "dry",
bottom-right corner labelled "hot", top-right corner labelled "wet".]
[Here is an approximate fixed-with font ASCII rendering of that image]
water
N
cold ----------- wet
|\ /|
| \ / |
earth W | x | E air
| / \ |
|/ \|
dry ------------ hot
S
fire
[End of ASCII rendering]
This would fit well with the fascination of the ancient Greeks with
ancient Egypt, from the first philosopher Thales who reportedly measured
the height of the pyramids in Giza by comparing the length of their
shadows with his own shadow, via the tetractys of the Pythagoreans up to
Aristotle’s description of the four elements in terms of tangible
properties dry/wet and hot/cold.
(Flip dry-hot and cold-wet above, or attribute elements to corners
instead ?)
[1] Richard Wilhelm in the introduction of I Ching or Book of Changes.
[photo of the two largest pyramids at Giza]
[End of document]
I just needed to get this idea out...
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/the-pyramids-and-the-four-elements.pdf
Here is an ASCII copy of the content of the above document:
The pyramids and the four elements?
On the morning of Saturday, 15 December 2018, around 8 AM, I had the
idea to relate dry/wet and hot/cold to the heating and drying course of
the sun around one of the pyramids at Giza, just like for the original
image for yin-yang in China as the shady and sunny sides of a hill [1].
Eureka!
[image]
[In the PDF linked above, the image shows a top view of a pyramid;
top edge labelled "N" and "water", left edge labelled "W" and "earth",
bottom edge labelled "S" and "fire", right edge labelled "E" and "air";
top-left corner labelled "cold", bottom-left corner labelled "dry",
bottom-right corner labelled "hot", top-right corner labelled "wet".]
[Here is an approximate fixed-with font ASCII rendering of that image]
water
N
cold ----------- wet
|\ /|
| \ / |
earth W | x | E air
| / \ |
|/ \|
dry ------------ hot
S
fire
[End of ASCII rendering]
This would fit well with the fascination of the ancient Greeks with
ancient Egypt, from the first philosopher Thales who reportedly measured
the height of the pyramids in Giza by comparing the length of their
shadows with his own shadow, via the tetractys of the Pythagoreans up to
Aristotle’s description of the four elements in terms of tangible
properties dry/wet and hot/cold.
(Flip dry-hot and cold-wet above, or attribute elements to corners
instead ?)
[1] Richard Wilhelm in the introduction of I Ching or Book of Changes.
[photo of the two largest pyramids at Giza]
[End of document]
undifferentiated wrote:
> Thanks! You reminded me of Hericlitus.
>
> He popped into mind the other day, yet I don't recall why
> at the moment. It may have had to do with shamanism
> and how it was said shamanism is a root of Taoism.
> Yes, I think that was the context.
>
> Looking up Hericlitus, wikipedia says:
>
> << Heraclitus was famous for his insistence on ever-present change as
> being the fundamental essence of the universe, as stated in the famous
> saying, "No man ever steps in the same river twice". This is commonly
> considered to be one of the first digressions into the philosophical
> concept of becoming, and has been contrasted with Parmenides statement
> that "what-is is" as one of the first digressions into the
> philosophical concept of being. >>
>
> With Tao Chia, a fiction created by scholars,
> according to some scholars, the philosophy, philosophical Taoism,
> change might be of an essence as well as how duality works.
>
> Chuang-tzuvian philosophy could be skeptical in Ways,
> and perhaps called skeptical perspectival relativism, seeing
> as how for each species and individual, what works may differ.
>
> Work, as a concept, may take a bit of work to get beyond work.
> To be care-free, given: the CT, Chapter 1; also floats me boat.
>
> - as a few things dawn on this morning. Thanks again!
Thanks a lot, too! :)
Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote (at alt.astrology, not here...):
> On 12/15/2018 2:51 AM, astalder@span.ch wrote:
> > I just needed to get this idea out...
> >
> > https://www.exactphilosophy.net/the-pyramids-and-the-four-elements.pdf
>
>
> Go to bed, meth head.
are you a duck?
because you appear to be duck typing?*
the image of a hill or a pyramid and the basic opposites
in the East and in the West...
compare that to all the conspiracy theories around the
pyramids and the like, and yet nobody saw such a simple
structure over millienia since maybe very ancient times?
Taoism and Heraclitus were really helpful to see this,
as well as the moon, too, of course, I guess...
* that was actually a "classic" example of a strawman argument:
in the usual sense,
duck typing is applied to the observed "object"
rather than to the observing "subject",
but they are like yin and yang,
and both, if they are not just bots,
could easily walk and talk like ducks,
without becoming ducks... (usually)
and yet maybe always are...?
the pleasure of the fish (Zhuangzi)...
(Originally posted 5 Oct 2020 at 18:46 UTC to the forum at astro.com,
but there "Please note that until after 5 November 2020, we will not
tolerate discussions on US elections or Trump on this forum.")
Mercury Direct on Election Day... - Pentagon/Pentagram with Joe Biden's
n.Node near Regulus
Just something I noticed and which may not already be on the
astrological radar regarding the coming US Presidential Elections, so I
am sharing it here...
Mercury will go retrograde in roughly one week and go direct again on
Election Day (Tue 3 Nov 2020) around noon (Eastern), see the first chart
below for that moment.
There are two golden yods then (a golden yod is like a regular yod but
instead of made of two quincunxes and a sextile made of two biquintiles
and a quintile - Adolf Hitler had one at birth, for example). One golden
yod ist pointing to the sun in the 9th house in Scorpio, the other one
to the moon near the end of the 4th house in Gemini, i.e. the golden
yods are pointing to the two big lights in the sky.
And they are related, part of three connected quintiles involving also
Jupiter/Pluto and Nepune as additional corners of an unfinished
pentagon.
Only one corner is missing, around 0° Virgo to make this a grand
quintile, a pentagon and a pentagram (a pentagon if you consider only
the quintiles, a pentagram if you only consider the biquintiles).
0° Virgo is also close to the fixed star Regulus, the heart of the lion
in the constellation Leo. (Actually Regulus entered Virgo only around
2011, tropically moving very slowly forward due to precession; before
that it had been in Leo for more than 2000 years.)
Now, Joe Biden's n.node is there; this is where he is going in his life,
definitely at his age. So he would complete the pentagon/pentagram,
which may count as an omen for being elected, since Regulus is the heart
of the "Lion King", and the number 5 would also relate to the 5th sign
Leo (and the 5th house). There is also a relation between 5 and Mercury:
Mercury is retrograde quite close to 1/5th of the time...
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Biden,_Joe
(By the way, Nawalny's moon is also around 0° Virgo, and when he was
poisoned Mercury was a transiting over that spot...)
Mercury direct on Election Day (Tue 3 Nov 2020) for Washington DC:
[imagine chart here, for 12:49:43 (PM) that day (17:49:43 UTC)]
For comparision the similar situation of Election Day in the year 2000
(Tue 7 Nov), the election that was only decided some weeks later by the
Supreme Court:
[imagine chart here, for 21:21:04 that day]
Link: https://www.exactphilosophy.net/the-cronian-twenties.pdf
The Cronian Twenties
It is not so common to cast birth charts for calendar events, even though quite
famous astrologers like Dane Rudhyar did it in the past.
In my experience, such charts mirror more than you would expect. A bit more
specifically, for the 2020s for each country I take 1 January 2020 at midnight
for each capital, since calendars are cultural creations, regulated usually by the
respective states. Berlin below, in most countries the sun is near the IC.
[chart-for-berlin-2020-01-01-00:00:00-see-article-online]
The nodal axis with the southern node near the IC implies rather hard times for
"roots", including old people, families and ancient traditions.
Moon/Neptune in Pisces could imply inundations in the literal sense or also
in a medical sense, which would affect daily life since in the sixth house.
Uranus is in the eight house ("death/sex") in the 3rd degree of Taurus,
where traditionally the moon is exalted; in the second house ("body") Mars is
conjunct asteroid 100 Hekate in Scorpio, which all can be taken as signs that
death might often be nearer than usual in the 2020s.
Saturn/Pluto in Capricorn, of course; and note that Chariklo ("grace"), the
largest centaur and wife of Chiron in mythology, is leading them.
Sedna conjunct Algol suggests "no fingers" to do much against death/sex/fate.
In the chain of dispositors shown below Saturn has the central role, especially
if you include traditional rulerships. Corona is etymologically related to Cronos,
the Greek name for the planet Saturn.
[dispositors-for-2020-01-01-see-article-online]
In other words, Saturn would be clearly the dominant theme of the 2020s, sug-
gesting to maybe call the 2020s \The Cronian Twenties" or similar, in analogy
to "The Roaring Twenties" for the 1920s in the 20th century.
Where is hope in this?
I guess in the new. The northern node at the MC and Venus in Aquarius in
the fth house of creations and children. I guess in that sense in close relations
as well as in progress, also in technological ways, but such that they help.
The above is certainly not a perfect or complete analysis, and certainly also
aided by events like COVID-19, climate extremes and Afghanistan up to August
2021 as I am writing this, but to me it seems very clearly that this would mirror
a lot of what is currently going on and could thus help to deal wisely with it.
In particular, Sedna is likely both a burden and a great chance for the future,
at least that would be one of my hopes. But feel free to have your own !
* Pan as in pandemic is usually associated with Capricorn and Saturn, hence
a Corona pandemic would fit a time generally ruled by Saturn very well.
Hallo zusammen,
Nur eine kleine Demo, dass man/frau/* hier immer noch posten könnte,
wenn gewünscht... Klar, nur Text, aber immerhin, recht frei...
Alain
Ich möchte nun ein paar Jahre im Wesentlichen ein Nickerchen machen bgzl.
Astrologie und so. (Eine frühere Personalleiterin, Sonne in den Fischen
(und auch Pluto ein bisschen in Opposition), erzählte mir mal, dass sie
immer nach Gefühl entscheidet, aber in der Firma wo v.a. Männer arbeiteten,
sich danach logisch-vernünftige Gründe zurechtlegte, die sie dann
präsentierte. Im Leben ist es wohl öfter als die meisten meinen im
Wesentlichen so, wenn auch oft nicht so bewusst.)
Meine Beiträge um die Astrologie herum sind alle frei einsehbar (Web+Bücher)
und auch die Archivierung auf längere Zeit ist im Wesentlichen vorhanden
(archive.org, NB CH). Also frei für alle, sich da zu bedienen, wenn gewünscht
etwas aufzugreifen, daraus mehr zu machen, auch ganze Karrieren (einfach
meine Quellen referenzieren/zitieren wie üblich, natürlich)...
Etwas, das ich nebenbei gerne machen möchte in den nächsten Jahren, ev.
schon auf meine Saturn-Rückkehren 2025/2026 hin, ist das Taschenbuch
schreiben, das ich im Musikfaden mehrfach erwähnt hatte. Das Buch würde
nicht unmittelbar gross von Astrologie handeln sondern von fundamentaleren
Dingen (in hoffentlich breit zugänglicher Weise), welche aber auch die
Astrologie in ihrem resultierenden Weltbild ganz natürlich einschliessen
würden. On verra... Lächelnd
(Das Mini-Netzwerk über openastro.io kann so lange wie gewünscht bestehen
bleiben. Vielleicht weiter in der Zukunft, ev. wenn ich pensioniert wäre,
käme ich auch ggf. dazu Tools um und für Astrologie zu schreiben, aber im
Moment und insbesondere dieses Jahr sicher nicht, wenn ich mir nicht selbst
schaden möchte.)
Chiron wird übrigens in ein paar Tagen zum dritten und letzten Mal in dem
Zyklus über meinen MC ziehen, und unten angehängt ist mein drittes und
letztes Saturnar vom zweiten Zyklus, 5. Februar 2026. Sieht schon ein wenig
wie potentiell was mit "Hollywood" für das Buch aus, zumindest wäre sowas
auch eine gewisse Hoffnung von mir... Augenrollen
Und danke vielmals allen für all die Zeit der vergangenen 20+ Jahre
(Astroforum, Usenet, usw.), und alles Gute!... Lächelnd
Alain Stalder
English:
I would like to take essentially a nap now for a few years regarding
astrology and such. (A personnel manager in the past, Sun in Pisces (and
also Pluto a bit in opposition), once told me that she always decides by
feeling, but in the company where mainly men worked, she afterwards
concocted logical/reasonable reasons, which she then presented. In life it
is probably more often than most people think essentially like that, even
if often less consciously.)
My contributions around astrology are all freely available (web+books)
and also long-term archival has essentially been taken care of (archive.org,
NB CH). Hence everybody is free to serve themselves, to pick up something if
desired, make more of it, even whole carreers (just reference/quote/cite
my sources as usual, of course)...
Something I would love to do on the side in the coming years, maybe already
towards my Saturn returns of 2025/2026, is to write the pocket book I
mentioned multiple times in the music thread. The book would not be directly
about astrology much, but about more fundamental things (in hopefully broadly
accessible ways), which would however also very naturally include astrology
in the resulting Weltbild. On verra... Lächelnd
(The mini-network via openastro.io can remain in place as long as desired.
Maybe further into the future, maybe when I would be retired, I might get
around to write some tools around and for astrology, but at the moment not
and especially certainly not this year, unless I wanted to harm myself.)
Chiron will, by the way, cross my MC for the third and last time in this
cycle in a few days, and attached below is my third and last Saturn return
of the second cycle, 5 February 2026. Does in fact look a bit like something
with potentially some "Hollywood" in it for the book, at least something
like that would also be a certain hope of mine... Augenrollen
And thanks a lot everybody for all the time during the past 20+ years
(Astro Forum, Usenet, etc.), and all the best!... Lächelnd
Alain Stalder
--
“Creatures, I give you yourselves,” said the strong, happy voice of Aslan.
“I give to you forever this land of Narnia. I give you the woods, the fruits,
the rivers. I give you the stars and I give you myself. [...]”
C. S. Lewis, The Chronicles of Narnia
The Pink Panther in "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Pink"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9P-eDS3oMc
Daten für Return Chart (das Bild konnte ich hier nicht beilegen):
5. Februar 2026 um 16:15:06 MEZ (15:15:06 UTC)
Adliswil, Schweiz, 8e32, 47n19
Aspekte zu Saturn hervorgehoben in der Horoskopzeichnung:
- Vor Saturn Neptun und dann 105 Artemis beide schon knapp im Widder
- Sextil zu Uranus gegen Ende Stier (nahe Algol) und Sedna im erste Grad Zwillinge
- Sextil zu Pluto (und davor 78 Diana) früh im Wassermann
- Opposition zum Mond früh in der Waage
Insgesamt eine Drachenfigur (Huber) mit Saturn (und Neptun/Artemis) am Kopf....
Generell auch eine besondere Situation für die Astrologie um 2026 herum mit
all den Langsamläufern in den Aspekten, da der Frühlingsanfang ("astrologischer
Jahresanfang") z.B. auch oft für Gründungen in der Astrologie verwendet wird,
der 21. März ist "Tag der Astrologie"...
Alain Stalder
Meiner persönlichen Meinung nach ist Alois Treindl (Astrodienst) ein Dieb
mindestens im übertragenen/moralischen Sinn, denn die Firma Astrodienst AG
hat vor, die Fäden/Beiträge im PDF Archiv des Forums auf forum.astro.com
nach der Schliessung durch Suchmaschinen indizieren und archivieren zu lassen,
was bisher zumindest seit Ende 2014 im Forum nicht der Fall war (die Beiträge
waren zwar öffentlich lesbar wenn man dort vorbeiging und sich durch den Wald
von Beiträgen durchsuchte, ggf. auch mit einer elementaren mind. früher sehr
langsamen Suchfunktion, aber Google etc. indizierten die Seiten nicht und
auch Archvivierung war nicht erlaubt via meta tags im HTML Source Code der
Webseiten). Damit holt sich astro.com über diese Inhalte einerseits Traffic
auf die Internetseite und andererseits exponiert sie die Leute, die dort
gepostet hatten ungefragt. Zudem habe ich persönlich im Verhalten von Alois
Treindl in meinem Empfinden ganz klar gewisse sadistische Züge erkannt.
Ich persönlich werde jedenfalls den Kontakt wie meist bisher meiden wie
nur möglich...
Zitat aus den Forumsregeln des Astrodienst Forums ('runtergeladen am
2.1.2023; soweit nicht recherchiert, seit wann die so gewesen wären):
: Urheberrecht an Postings
:
: Der Verfasser eines Postings ist, sofern es sich nicht um zitierten
: Text Dritter handelt, dessen Urheber. Er ist inhaltlich für seinen
: Text verantwortlich. Durch das Veröffentlichen im Forum übertragt
: er dauerhaft der Betreiberin des Forums das Recht, diesen Text im
: Forum zu veröffentlichen. Ueber jegliche andere Verwendung des
: Texts verfügt ausschliesslich der Urheber. Das gleich gilt für
: eingestellte Bilder und andere Daten, deren Urheber der Verfasser
: des Postings ist.
:
: [...]
Der Punkt zum Recht zum "im Forum zu veröffentlichen", wurde - allem
Anschein nach - von der Astrodienst AG in der Vergangenheit seit
mindestens Ende 2014 in der Art interpretiert, dass es per HTML Meta
Tags nicht erlaubt wurde, die Webseiten mit den Beiträgen durch
Internet-Suchmaschinen indizieren zu lassen und auch nicht im Internet
archivieren, wohl schlicht weil dadurch die Inhalte ausserhalb der
Internetdomäne astro.com publiziert worden wären, wozu es - zumindest
wäre das eine vertretbare Sicht - keinerlei Erlaubnis der Urheber gab.
Die Meta Tags waren bis mind. Anfang Januar 2023 wie folgt gewesen:
<meta name="robots" content="noarchive">
<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow">
Natürlich halten sich nicht alle Spider im Internet daran, aber all die
grossen bekannten und breit genutzten wie Google usw. natürlich schon.
Ich bin soweit noch nie mit einer Google Suche auf irgendeinen Inhalt
aus dem Astrodienst Forum gestossen in all den Jahren wo es bestand,
und auch sonst auf keine Weise ausser direkt dort lesen oder suchen.
Es gibt eben verschiedene Abstufungen von "öffentlich" im Internet. Je
rascher etwas gefunden werden kann, desto sichtbarer ist es unmittelbar in
der Öffentlichkeit. Und die technischen Möglichkeiten werden in Zukunft
vermutlich noch sehr stark zunehmen, würden es wohl mindestens technisch
erlauben, mittels künstlicher Intelligenz Schreibende oft rein an ihrem
Schreibstil zu erkennen (oder fast zu erkennen), selbst wenn unter einem
Pseudonym geschrieben und nichts direkt Indizierbares über sich selbst
verraten. Dazu kommt noch, dass astro.com eine recht prominente Website
ist, deutlich prominenter wie es die allermeisten der privaten Websites
der Poster sind, also daher auch automatisch meist ein deutlich höheres
Rating bei Suchmaschinen und daher noch einmal besser sichtbar.
Jedenfalls verhielten sich in der Zeit, wo das Forum noch offen war, mind.
im deutschsprachigen Bereich typ. sowohl Poster wie auch Moderatoren oft
eher etwas lax bzgl. gewissen Forumsregeln - so lange der Umgangston gut
blieb - da das Umfeld doch effektiv recht abgeschirmt war, also teilweise
eher wie bei privatem Austausch oder in geschlossenen Gruppen. Wer dafür
am Ende genau verantwortlich war oder ist, dass es insgesamt dazu kam, das
ist nicht so eindeutig, es können sich wohl weder Betreiber noch Poster
dem ganz entziehen trotz z.B. "Der Verfasser eines Postings [...] ist
inhaltlich für seinen Text verantwortlich" im Zitat oben, denn die Website
astro.com wird nun mal von der Astrodienst AG betrieben.
Das würde es grundsätzlich etwas heikel machen, wenn die Astrodienst AG,
wie sie angekündigt hat, ihr PDF Forumsarchiv frei von Internet Such-
maschinen indizieren und auch im Internet frei archivieren liesse.
Sollte es dazu kommen, entschuldige ich mich schon mal im Voraus dafür,
dass meine Beiträge nicht alle mit derselben Umsicht geschrieben sind,
wie das sonst bei den Publikationen der Fall ist, die ich auf meinen
Websites oder in meinen Büchern etc. veröffentliche, sowie mir selbst
da wohl die Hände weitgehend gebunden wären, daran etwas zu ändern,
und ich da typ. nur an die Astrodienst AG verweisen könnte.....
Alain Stalder
PS: Rein astrologisch gesehen, sähe ich unmittelbar drei Gründe, die ggf.
wichtig sein könnten bzgl. wieso sich die Dinge momentan in diese Richtung
zu entwickeln scheinen (plus noch einen vierten etwas weiter unten):
• Transit von Pluto über den MC von AT (ADB RR A) und Trigon zum AC, was
unbewusst dazu führen könnte(!), dass bei Astrodienst mehr Fokus auf
Macht/Geld/etc. gelegt würde als sonst üblich, und in dem Sinn auch dazu
passen könnte(!) über die Forumsbeiträge noch weiteren Internet-Traffic
anzuziehen und so astro.com noch populärer zu machen?
• Die progressive Sonne von AT wäre seit irgendwann in den 1960ern im 12. Haus
der Geburt gewesen, und nominell seit ca. einem Jahr im 1. Haus, bzw. wenn
nur ein paar Minuten andere Geburtszeit ggf. auch erst seit Kurzem, was dazu
passen könnte(!) das "Irrenhaus" Astrodienst Forum mit all seinen "Originalen"
in die grosse, weite Welt zu entlassen?
• Die dritte und letzte Pluto-Rückkehr der USA dieses Zyklus' war gegen Ende
Dezember 2022 (Sibly Chart) gewesen, also um den Zeitraum herum, wo ggf. der
Entscheid "ganz zu öffnen" gefallen wäre; plus der anscheinend vergleichsweise
grössere Zuspruch im englischsprachigen Teil des Forums könnte(!) auch damit
zusammenhängen, da ja die USA auch den Pluto sowieso nahe dem MC von AT hätte?
Ich persönlich hoffe, auch da meine Hände weitgehend gebunden sind, dass sich
die Astrodienst AG gut überlegt/hineinfühlt, ob sie, mit was immer sie tun würde
mit dem Forumsarchiv, in Einklang mit den Schicksalsgöttinnen wäre.....
Ja, eine Öffnung, die bietet natürlich auch Chancen; für einzelne Astrologen,
deren Ideen dadurch doch auch Aufmerksamkeit bekommen könnten, und auch für
astro.com, welche soweit doch mindestens in den letzten 10-20 Jahren sehr,
sehr einem eher "langweiligen" oder mindestens sich kaum mehr entwickelnden
Mainstream folgte, bzw. astro.com ihn dank der eigenen Prominenz auch mind.
in gewissem Sinne mittrug, plus natürlich auch für Besucher, die so neue Impulse
finden würden?
Gerade mit Pluto bald im Wassermann, wäre wohl "Stehlen" vielerorts in gewisser
Weise angesagt, und auch irgendwas mit Masochismus und Sadismus, wenn man den an
einen Felsen angeketteten Prometheus denkt, dem ein Adler jeden Tag etwas an
der Leber nagt...? Muss ja nicht gleich ganz so wie in Vaclav Svankmajer's
"Svetlonos" sein...
Technisch liesse sich das Forumsarchiv jedenfalls analog wie das Forum zuvor
sehr einfach schützen, einfach statt "robots" HTML Meta Tag, "X-Robots" HTTP
Hesponse Header verwenden (oder auch im /robots.txt z.B. liesse sich wohl ein
in den meisten Fällen äquivalenter Effekt erzielen).
Ich gehe mal in Winterschlaf, wie schon angekündigt, poste vielleicht noch
einen Link auf das Chart meiner dritten Saturnrückkehr des zweiten Zyklus...
Wieso warten, hier ist es... ;)
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/saturn-return-2-3of3.png
Wer sich nicht selbst behauptet,
bleibt eben dadurch frei von Tadel.
-- Tao Te King 8 (Wilhelm)
䷿ 64 Wei Chi
Wenn aber der kleine Fuchs...
Tschüss allerseits! :)
Ich war so frei mir eine Sammlung von Forumsarchiven zusammenzustellen
in ein einziges "Sherwood Forrest Forumsarchiv" ZIP File:
- sherwood-forrest-forum-archive.zip
Grösse: 23'059'827'875 bytes (21 Gigabytes)
Erzeugt: 2023-02-04 09:19:52 MEZ (UTC+1)
SHA3-512 Hash:
a2298215e0ff12e851d195bd95fae0812ecacca6734fa7c60b2acff71f292de7
ab292c7b3092fa1d225b96042a87271f124ae0ae83161f34eb3375d17fb27562
Aus dem Readme:
: Teil dieses Archivs sind:
:
: - PDFs des Forumsarchivs (plus HTML-Seiten, die sie auflisten),
: so wie früh im Februar 2023 heruntergeladen.
: - Eine Kopie der allgemeinen Diskussionsbereiche von um Neujahr
: 2022/2023, als HTML und PDF Files.
: - Extra: Meine Website exactphilosophy.net früh im Februar 2023,
: inklusive dem /noindex Bereich dort, welcher auch meinen "slice"
: der meisten meiner Posts in den allgemeinen Diskussionsbereichen
: des Forums beinhaltet.
[...]
: Alain Stalder (für "Robin Hood")
: (Letzter von 3 Transiten von Chiron in diesem Zyklus über meinen MC....)
Indem ich hier oben den kryptographischen Hash veröffentliche, liessen
sich nun eventuelle spätere Veränderungen nachweisen, damit zumindest
niemand (inklusive mir selbst!) je in Versuchung käme, die "Geschichte
umzuschreiben", wie in Orwells "Farm der Tiere", wo es ja erst auf der
Scheunenrückwand hiess "Alle Tiere sind gleich.", aber später dann mal
über Nacht "Alle Tiere sind gleich, aber manche sind gleicher.".
Ich hätte vermutet(!), dass in manchen Ländern jede/jeder das Recht
dazu haben würde, eine Kopie dieses oder eines ähnlichen Archivs rein
für privaten Gebrauch zu halten, auch da es ja kaum noch mehr enthält
als den "Löwenanteil" des Archivs, der von astro.com zum Indizieren
und Archivieren im Internet völlig freigegeben wurde...
But if the little fox...
)o+
Ich lasse es mal gut sein mit Astrologie. Die letzten 20 Jahre erwuchs kein
Interesse an meinen Beiträgen zur Astrologie. Daher wäre jedes weitere Wort
überflüssig. Auf meiner Website exactphilosophy.net findet sich alles
Wesentliche. Danke allen vielmals für die Zeit. :)
> (abm25)
Hallo ihr alle, die das hier lest... :)
Hier gäbe es eine weitere, allen frei zugängliche Möglichkeit, sich über
Astrologie und drumherum auszutauschen...
Das hier ist kein moderiertes "Forum", was u.A. folgende Vor-/Nachteile hat:
- Es gibt, soweit ich sehe, praktisch keine Möglichkeit etwas, das hier mal
geschrieben wurde, je wieder zu löschen oder auch nur zu ändern..
Also sehr ähnlich wie bei Emails, ausser dass hier grundsätzlich öffentlich
einsehbar wäre, allerdings nur wenn man hier explizit nachschaut, bei allen
grossen Internet-Suchmaschinen (Google, Bing, usw.) ist das nicht auffindbar.
Aber man/frau kann sich natürlich entschuldigen und etwas zurücknehmen mit
einen weitern Beitrag, allerdings illegale Inhalte würden stehen bleiben...
Also insgesamt etwas, das eine gewisse Eigenverantwortung fördern würde.
- Es kann niemand ausgeschlossen werden.
Das ist einerseits gut ("free speech"), andererseits öffnen sich dadurch auch
im Prinzip einige Möglichkeiten für Missbrauch (die ich hier vorerst gar nicht
explizit aufzählen möchte).
Wenn hier ein gewisses Interesse entstünde, könnte ich mir vorstellen, für
Usenet mal in der Zukunft eine spezifische Lesesoftware zu schreiben, mit der
sich dann solche Missbräuche bei Wunsch automatisch ausblenden liessen, oder
mind. etwas in den Hintergrund drängen. (Technisch mittels Webassembly liesse
sich das heutzutage auch mit vergleichsweise wenig Aufwand realisieren ohne
dadurch zu einem Forumsbetreiber zu werden mit all den rechtlichen Auflagen.)
Auch zu bemerken ist, dass Usenet praktisch "tot" ist, ausser uns wird fast
niemand posten, insb. sind auch alle Spammer verschwunden, also hier was
in dem Rahmen wie sonst im Internet orchestriert über Russland usw., würde
hier mind. in absehbarer Zeit kaum passieren, wäre einfach für solche
Gruppen viel zu viel technischer Aufwand für die paar Leute hier...
Also, wer hätte Lust das mal zu probieren? ;)
Ist übrigens weitgehend als Ergänzung zu bestehenden Möglichkeiten gedacht,
wie Facebook-Gruppen, verschiedenen Internet-Foren, astrologischen Vereinen,
Youtubern, Influencern, usw., also weniger als Konkurrenz denn als etwas
"Neues/Anderes", eben Renaissance, etwas Wiedergeborenes,
neu und doch vertraut...? ;)
Konkret:
Wenn ihr hier nur LESEN möchtet:
Geht einfach auf https://groups.google.com/g/de.alt.astrologie und lest mit....
Wenn ihr hier auch POSTEN möchtet:
Einfache Variante (A):
- Optional eine Gratis-Email registrieren (z.B. bei gmx.de) mit Mails Lesen
z.B. via Web Browser (eben z.B. bei gmx.de).
- Richtet euch einen Google Login ein, idealerweise wohl mit einer Email, die
ihr nicht täglich für vieles benutzt und die nichts über euren richtigen
Namen, etc. verrät.
- Geht auf https://groups.google.com/g/de.alt.astrologie und registriert euch
dort für die Gruppe. Dann könnt ihr auch einen x-beliebigen Usernamen wählen.
Und ihr könnt auch ein Profilbild setzen.
- Postet einen Beitrag, wenn ihr möchtet. Alle, die über Google Groups lesen,
die sehen nur den oben gewählten Usernamen, aber nicht die Email.
Etwas technischere Variante (B):
- Ihr registriert euch mit irgendeiner Email bei http://www.eternal-september.org
- Ihr beschafft euch einen Usenet-Client, also eine Client-Software für Usenet.
- Dort setzt ihr für Zugriff Passwort und Email von external-september.org, und
für die Beiträge könnt ihr dann aber eine Fantasie-Email wählen, z.B. wenn ihr
als Usernamen "Nickyy" wählt, dann z.B. "nickyy@nirgends.not" oder so...
(Geht vielleicht nicht mit allen Usenet-Clients, müsste schauen...)
Der Vorteil bei der technischeren Variante ist, dass keine echte Email sichtbar
wäre, allerdings könnte dann auch niemand eine Email an einen Schicken als "PN".
(Und absoluter Schutz vor Strafverfolgung wäre es auch nicht: Zumindest via
external-september.org in den USA könnten Behörden dann die dort registrierte
Email herausfinden, also bei berechtigtem Verdacht auf illegale Tätigkeiten.
Ein "rechtsfreier" Raum wie vor 25 Jahren ist das öffentlich einsehbare Internet
viel weniger heute, auch daher wieder der Anreiz zu Selbstverantwortung...)
Bilder (v.a. für Horoskop-Zeichnungen wichtig, natürlich):
Das ist soweit nicht wirklich gut gelöst, was man tun kann, ist einen Link posten,
auf den die, die Lesen, dann klicken können, aber dazu braucht ihr beim Posten
einen Ort im Internet, wo ihr das permanent speichern könnt. Es gibt solche Services
im Internet, kann ich gerne dann noch mal etwas recherchieren, oder ihr könnt auch
selbst Infos dazu hier posten, wenn ihr da schon was weiterempfehlen könntet...
In der Zukunft gäbe es vielleicht für Horoskope dann auch andere Möglichkeiten
mit dem speziellen Client, den ich weiter oben kurz angesprochen hatte, da könnte
man im Usenet nur die Daten posten, also Geburtsdaten und typ. des Horoskops
(Objekte, Orben, usw.), und das Horoskop würde dann live gezeichnet, ev. auch
optional mit den Einstellungen vom Poster oder den eigenen Präferenzen....
Gäbe da viele Möglichkeiten, aber auch ggf. viiiiel Arbeit...
Also, das wäre es mal, und wenn das hier gepostet habe (ohne zuvor in die Sterne
zu blicken ausser dass ich weiss wo Sonne und Mond etwa sind, dann schreibe ich
auch eine kleine Seite auf https://openastro.io/ ), inkl. Gründungshoroskop von
de.alt.astrologie und von dieser Renaissance hier...
Und dann eröffne ich wohl auch mal ein paar Threads, vielleicht einfach ein paar
vom am 1. Februar gestorbenen astro.com Forum weiterführen, weiss noch nicht...
Dann schauen ob/wenn jemand antwortet, ich bin überhaupt nicht böse wenn niemand
antwortet, wir können uns ja sowieso auch anderswo austauschen wenn gewünscht...
Ah, das ist noch:
Themenbereiche:
Gibt es ja hier nicht wirklich, ist ein einziges Forum, aber ich schlage mal
folgendes vor (keiner davon "bierernst" gedacht, entscheidet selbst), also
einfach beim Betreff/Subject davor stellen (wie bei dem Beitrag hier "Ann:"):
- Allg: "Allgemeine und psychologische Astrologie", auch mundan/politisch
- Trad: Spezifisch traditionelle Methoden im Vordergrund
- Neu: Eigene Forschung und neue teilweise aufkommende Dinge im Vordergrund
- Spez: Spezifische schon einigermassen etablierte Richtungen wie MRL oder HDS?
Aber direkt "MRL:", "HDS:", etc. ginge natürlich auch, aber gibt ja
vielleicht weniger bekannte Richtungen ohne weit bekannte Abkürzung
- Pers!: Diskussion persönlicher Horoskope - wenn jemand das hier wagen möchte!
Da eben kaum je wirklich löschbar wenn was Privates verraten......
- Stund!: Stundenhoroskope (die sind ja oft zu was privatem auch)
- Ann: Ankündigungen (zu de.alt.astrologie oder eigene Website, Buch, usw.)
Aus dem Englischen "announce" (ankündigen/verkünden).
- Misc: "Geburtstage und anderes", "Feedback/Vorschläge", "Rätsel",
also einfach alles andere...
Ah, vielleicht ja noch sowas:
- Vent!: Wenn jemand Frust über was loswerden möchte? Damit das vielleicht den
Dialog sonst auf de.alt.astrologie nicht so "stört", und im Gegensatz
zu einfach ein Thema dann hier diskutieren?
"vent" ist aus dem Englischen, meint grob "Luft ablassen" (ventilate),
also dem Ärger Luft machen, und damit oft vielleicht nicht insgesamt
fair, aber ein Teil der Wahrheit, wenn auch ggf. etwas "überzeichnet".
Und könnte etwas aus dem privaten Umfeld sein, der Arbeit, Politik,
Internet, von Maschendrahtzaun bis zum Atomkrieg, ...
Hm, und zu "moderieren", wenn jemand wo mal findet etwas wäre übertrieben, dann
vielleicht posten, und wenn zu scheu vielleicht mir schreiben oder jemand anderem,
der/die vielleicht weniger scheu wäre, dann das zu posten, also ev. delegieren...
Aber absolut hindern geht natürlich nicht, bleibt jeder frei was zu posten hier...
Also mind. theoretisch könnte es teilweise dann doch hässlich werden, aber ich
hoffe mal nicht, oder nur sehr selten, mehr nach Gefühl, sonst würde ich das hier
ja nicht machen/probieren...
Liebe Grüsse
Alain ("xphi.")
--
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/
https://www.artecat.ch/
https://openastro.io/
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Stalder,_Alain
Ist mir erst gerade jetzt aufgefallen, dass heute ja der 1. April ist!
Und doch war das hier kein Scherz... ;)
Wenn auch vielleicht in gewisser Weise so surreal wie ein Aprilscherz? (Smiley mit rollenden Augen...)
Liebe Grüsse
Alain
Im Prinzip einfach der Titel von "Jan Martin's Faden" im ehemaligen
astro.com Forum "geklaut", aber ist ja fast immer ein heisses Thema...
Ich schaue meistens hier nach, hat dort auch meist die Tageszeiten:
https://www.astrologyhoroscopereadings.com/2023-mercury-retrograde-calendar.html
(Gibt jedes Jahr ein Update...)
Die nächste Schattenphase beginnt schon relativ bald, am nächsten
Freitag, dem 7. April, rückläufig ab 21. April, wieder direkt um
14./15. April, und Ende Schattenphase am 1. Juni...
Genauer habe ich noch nicht geschaut... ;)
Seit dem 23. März ist ja Pluto erstmals im Wassermann, solche
allgemeinen Themen sind praktisch überall Diskussionsthema.
Dieses Jahr nur bis 11. Juni, auch nächstes Jahr noch nicht
ganz, 20. Januar bis 1. September 2024, aber ab 19.11.2024
dann fast 20 Jahre lang, bis 8. März 2043 (die Bahn von Pluto
ist ja weniger rund als die Planeten weiter innerhalb, die
Jahre wo Pluto relativ rasch durch die Zeichen ging sind
vorbei...)
Seit einiger Zeit schauen einige Astrologen mehr weiter in den
Himmel hinein, über das Sonnensystem und die eigene Galaxie
weit hinaus bis zu anderen Galaxien und Galaxienhaufen oder
sogar zu "Superhaufen" mit noch viel mehr Sternen, wenn auch
dann weiter weg...
Ich persönlich habe damit noch praktisch keine Erfahrung,
aber scheint schon interessant in welcher Weise oder zu welchen
Themen das gff. wichtig wäre, auf ggf. in Hinsicht ob wir auf
der Erde wirklich alleine im All sind oder nicht...? (augenrollendes Smiley)
Ist natürlich schon so, dass die Positionen davon relativ fix
sind, also praktisch wie Fixsterne nur eine Bewegung von etwa
einem Grad in 72 Jahren vorwärts im Tierkreis.
Irgendwie passt ein Musikfaden überall irgendwie hin, und
natürlich gerne auch mit Astrologie zu den Musikern oder
dem Konzert, der Veranstaltung, usw.
Vielleicht passend zum Titel des Fadens mit "Sonne":
Walking on sunshine - Katrina And The Waves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTigOGlS-V0
Hm, das hat mir Youtube gerade noch vorgeschlagen,
kannte ich gar nicht, Joni Mitchell bei Bob Dylan und
Roger McGinn:
Joni Mitchell - Coyote (Live at Gordon Lightfoot's Home with Bob Dylan & Roger McGuinn, 1975)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeaO5UZ5OcI
Wie lange noch, und wie würde ein Frieden da aussehen...?
Sieht ja momentan noch nicht nach Entspannung aus...
Schade, da die Menschen, die da aufeinander schiessen weitgehend
eine sehr ähnliche Kultur und Sprache haben auch sehr viel geteilte
Geschichte.
Ein Verdacht von mir war ja (siehe astro.com Forum), dass die Mars-
Rückkehr von Putin, die nahe vom gigantischen Vulkausbruch bei der
Insel Tonga im Pazifik war, bestimmend dafür wäre, dass Putin und
damit das sehr autokratisch regierte Russland derart mit Wucht
versuchen die heutige Ukraine zu zerstören, bzw. sich ideologisch
voll einzugliedern. Wenn das so wäre, siehe die damalige Konjunktion
von Ceres/Sedna/n.Mondknoten, dann würde sich wohl am 31.12.2023
etwas ändern bei der nominell nächsten Mars-Rückkehr von Putin,
angenommen dass die ADB Zeit stimmt - die ist zwar nominell sehr
unsicher, aber immerhin habe ich noch keine erfahrenen Astrologen
gehört, die sagten, sie würden sie ausschliessen können, dass
Dinge da nicht zusammenpassen würden...
Aber gibt ja so viel drum, und ich glaube eben auch Putin ist doch
noch mit Trump verbandelt, im Sinn dass Putin via Geheimdienst
Hackerangriffe gemacht hätte und auch Material sonst geliefert mit
dem Trump gewisse politische Gegner erpressen konnte, also dass ev.
wenn Trump unterginge, dann auch Putin, und umgekehrt?
Und so weiter, wer möchte... ?
ADB steht hier für die Astro-Databank, also die Datenbank von
Geburtsdaten inkl. Quellen die ursprünglich von Lois Rodden
in den USA gegründet wurde und nach ihrem Tod von Astrodienst
übernommen wurde und also Wiki weiter betrieben wird.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/
Konkret zu Hillary Clinton:
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clinton,_Hillary
Da ist seit ein paar Wochen eine Kopie ihres Geburtszertifikats
vorhanden, wenn auch leider wohl nur so etwa mit 200 dpi s/w
gescanned ("Fax-Qualität").
Daher ist leider nicht ganz schlüssig, ob die Uhrzeit dort 6:45
abends oder 10:45 abends ist.
Die ADB hat sich entschieden, nur ein Horoskop für 18:45 zu zeigen
mit AA Rating und die andere Möglichkeit 22:45 nur bei den "Source
Notes" zu erwähnen, was mit soweit vorschnell erscheint, wobei
natürlich nicht ausgeschlossen werden kann, dass Astrodienst noch
Zugang hätte zu Informationen, die sie auch verschiedensten Gründen
nicht öffentlich machen könnten.
Dennoch ein paar Gedanken zu mir.
Aus den Source Notes:
: Alois Treindl: The reading of the birth hour as 6 or 10 is not 100%
: clear. There are three other digits 6 on the document, which all
: have a rounded back. The vertical stroke in the birth hour is very
: straight. There is one other number 10 in the document. If it had
: a thick base line like the birth time, it might look just the same.
Genau den Konflikt sehe ich auch, insbesondere, da es unter der Zahl
oder den zwei Zahlen eine gepunktete vorgedruckte Linie hat, welche
durchaus dazu führen könnte, dass unten bei der 6 oder 10 sowas wie
eine verbindende Linie erscheint.
Bei der ADB hat es auch einen Link auf einen Zeitungsausschnitt von
der "Chicago Sun Times" von 1993, und in dem Artikel entspricht
einiges genau den Angaben auf dem Geburtszertifikat, wie der Beruf
und Arbeitgeber des Vaters und wie lange die Geburt im Spital dauerte:
https://kannonmcafee.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/hrc-sun-times-jan93-article-p1.jpg
Und da dort steht, dass die Geburt 12 Stunden war und die Mutter früh
am 26. Oktober 1947 im Spital erschien, scheint da 6:45 vielleicht
besser zu passen als 10:45, aber was genau "früh" heisst ist noch
schwierig zu sagen...
Und die Frage wäre auch da wiederum im welcher Qualität das Geburts-
zertifikat da vorlag, wenn in ähnlich schlechter Qualität, dann ev.
auch mehr interpretiert als ganz sicher...
Was ich noch sehr interessant fand, war das was Arlan Wise laut den
Source Notes berichtet hatte:
: n early Feb 2008 Arlan Wise wrote to the ISAR e-zine vol. 477 the
: following: "HILLARY CLINTON >from Arlan Wise to Marguerite dar
: Boggia.:I know this is hearsay, but, my chiropractor has treated
: Bill and Hillary when they come here (Martha's Vineyard) in the
: summer. She told me she had a conversation with Hillary about how
: they have the same astrology-both Scorpios with Pisces moons and
: both Leo rising. I haven't seen a time that gives Hillary a Leo
: ascendant but that's what she says she has. It definitely negates
: the 8:02 am time and adds to the confusion."
Da ich mit Arlan Wise vor ein paar Jahren mal sehr formal via Email
(ging um Buch-Review) mal Kontak hatte, würde ich es als sehr
unwahrscheinlich einstufen, dass sie sich das nur ausgedacht hatte
(wenn auch nicht 100% sicher), also dass zumindest stimmen würde,
dass die das so von der Chiropraktikerin erzählt bekommen hatte,
und da die Chiropraktikerin mind. ihren eigenen AC und Mond wusste,
war sie wohl mind. bzgl. Astrologie nicht ganz unwissend.
Nun wäre die Geburt um 22:45 tatsächlich kompatibel mit einem Löwe
AC wie bei der Geschichte der Chiropraktikerin bwz. Arlan Wise,
nur war da der Mond bereits im Widder. (Ein Löwe AC mit Fische Mond
ginge nur früh am Tag der Geburt, was vom Zertifikat her nicht geht.)
Es könnte ja ev. sein, dass Hillary Clinton nicht wusste, dass ihr
Mond bereits im Widder ist, oder auch, dass sie das nicht teilen
wollte...
Hillary Clinton: Between Two Ferns With Zach Galifianakis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkPe-9rM1Q
Ist natürlich Comedy, also wie viel gespielt ist, offen...
Aber mir fiel doch auf wie Zach Galifianakis sie am Ende fragt, wie
man sie am Besten erreichen könnte, "Per Email?"...
Es gab ja die Affäre wo sie einen eigenen Mailserver für all die
Mails bzgl. auch ihrem Job als Aussenministerin gehostet hatte,
und der mal von Russen geknackt wurde.
Nun, mit einer Geburtszeit hätte sie den Mond früh im Widder im
10. Haus. Was eigenes hosten wäre für mich schon Krebs/Mond,
was eigenes und eigene Infos schützen Widder, plus das 10. Haus
da ein Mailserver doch öffentlich erreichbar sein muss im
Internet, damit man dort Mails hinschicken kann...
Kurz gesagt, ich finde die Zeit 22:45 sollte weiterhin im Blick-
feld bleiben aufgrund der öffentlich zugänglichen Infos...
Vielleicht macht es dann sogar mal Sinn irgendwo eine Website zu
machen mit gewissen Ergänzungen zur ADB, damit die Site nicht zu
sehr Einfluss nehmen kann (auch nicht unabsichtlich, sind ja auch
dort alles nur Menschen, die Fehler machen können, und gerade aus
astrologischer Sicht, sind ja alle Menschen einseitig...)
xphi. (Alain Stalder)
Auf astrologyinterational.org hatte ich in der Zwischenzeit ein paarmal
etwas dazu geposted, insbesondere hatte ich da versucht, aus Saturn-
Rückkehrcharts abzuleiten, welche der zwei Geburtszeiten eher stimmen
könnte, allerdings in meinem Gefühl nicht sehr erfolgreich, bzw. es gab
aus meiner Sicht kein klares Resultat.
Schade, denn gerade bei mir, und auch bei ein paar anderen Beispielen wo
ich v.a. vor etwa einem Jahr schaute, schienen solche Rückkehrcharts sehr
gut zu funktionieren, aber war ev. Zufall aufgrund der relativ kleinen
Anzahl, wird sich vielleicht ein andermal noch eindeutiger klären. Und
natürlich wäre es für mich selbst gut zu wissen, ob das bei mir in dem
Fall auch überhaupt noch eine gewisse Bedeutung hätte...
Der Faden bei astrologyinterational.org:
https://www.astrologyinternational.org/forum/index.php?threads/hillary-clintons-geburtsurkunde-veröffentlicht-huch.220/
Jedenfalls habe ich gestern und heute Morgen etwas anderes versucht,
und mir ein Interview mit ihr bei der Howard Stern Show von Anfang
Dezember 2019 ganz angeschaut, sind insgesamt etwa 2.5 Stunden:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kHUA-Zma1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfRKsxxE-kc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FravnY6GwTg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCgcGL_jDNI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W85zIKpCr8M
Das Format der (Radio) Show ist schon recht geeignet, um die Leute doch
recht unmittelbar zu sehen, zumindest mehr als sonst in Medien üblich,
daher schien mir das gut geeignet zu sein um sie etwas "kennenzulernen".
Insgesamt wirkt sie schon wie Luft von der Erscheinung (also passend zu
der Zeit 18:45 mit Zwillinge AC und Wassermann MC). Sie spricht oft mit
den Händen dazu (Hände/Arme wären Zwillingen zugeordnet), und ist auch
sehr flexibel wenn die zweite Moderatorin was dazwischenwirft. Und sie
spricht viel von Fortschritt, davon es für alle besser zu machen, was
schon für einen Wassermann MC sprechen würde. Auch ihre Antwort auf die
Frage von Howard Stern, ob es sie nie gestört hätte bei Saturday Night
Live aufzutreten, da sie kein Comedian ist und so, fand ich sehr passend
zu einem Wassermann MC, grob dass, wenn es den Leuten, die das schauen,
Freude macht, es ihr dann auch Freude macht das zu tun. Und insgesamt
war eben ihre Erscheinung wohl schon eher Luft als Feuer (für 22:45 mit
Löwe AC und Widder MC). Das wäre ja auch konsistent mit der leicht etwas
wahrscheinlicheren Interpretation der Uhrzeit auf dem Geburtszertifikat.
Ich fände es allerdings immer noch falsch, falls die Astro-Databank das
zweite Horoskop (22:45) ganz entfernt hätte aufgrund von astrologischen
Überlegungen (und nicht ggf. noch weiteren, nicht öffentlichen Quellen),
da es rein von den bekannten Quellen her immer noch recht zweideutig ist.
(Die Unterscheidung zwischen was astrologisch ist und was die Fakten,
muss grundsätzlich in der ADB strikt sein, sonst wird sie unglaubwürdig
für Forschungen die auf deren Daten versuchen, Aspekte der Astrologie
naturwissenschaftlich zu belegen. Ja, die andere Lesart ist in den Source
Notes noch enthalten, und doch finde ich es so nicht richtig. Not amused.)
Mir selbst wird mittlerweile vielleicht klar, dass ich zwar über die
Jahre viel zu Astrologie gepostet hatte, aber vieles davon bleibt wohl
"Teasers" (ca. "Anregungen"), aber so wirklich meine Berufung ist die
Astrologie nicht, das sind dann schon die Dinge, die ich über die Elemente
herausgefunden habe, welche dann schon in die Wandlungen der Elemente
in den Sternzeichen hineinspielen, aber auch die Beschreibungen davon
in meinem Buch von 2016 haben kaum jemanden angesprochen. Konkret wurde
gar nichts von meinen Beiträgen seit 2002 in der Astrologie bleibend
aufgenommen, woran ich kaum der Astrologie oder den Astrologen alleine
die Schuld geben kann. Es passt halt am Ende nicht.
Dann wohl doch die Elemente... Ich kann das ja dann vielleicht doch noch
mal etwas aufgreifen auf astrologyinterational.org oder so, nur damit es
noch einmal aufkam, und dann sonst vielleicht wirklich besser einfach
im immer noch geplanten und sehr langsam am entstehenden Buch "ELEMENTAL"
irgendwann mal rauszubringen, in hoffentlich einer Form, die irgendwen
mal bleibend ansprechen würde...
Auf astrologyinternational schrieb ich heute noch etwas weiter.
Mir waren ihre kleinen spiraligen Ohrringe aufgefallen, die man nur selten sah,
wegen ihren Haaren, und die erinnerten mich an meinen Ammonit Silberring, den
ich immer trage grob seit ich etwa 10 bin, und mit den kleinen Widderhörnchen
am Kopf wäre eben ein Mond früh im Widder "against all odds" eben doch...
Ich kann wohl nicht anders im Moment als so, die Häuser der Saturnrückkehren
würden dann auch viel besser passen:
18:45: Bis 1977 im 5. Haus, bis 2006 Spitze 11., ab dann Ende 6.
22:45: Bis 1977 am IC im 4. Haus, bis 2006 am MC im 10., ab dann im 5.
Gerade das Buch, das sie mit der Tochter (5. Haus Kinder) 2019 schrieb und
das in dem Interview mit Howard Stern auch mehrfach erwähnt wurde, würde
auch dazu passen, und die Zeiten vorher eben auch besser.
Nur ist Widderum (pun!) die Methode mit den Rückkehrhoroskopen mind. von
meiner Seite her formal noch nicht breit genug abgestützt um darauf was
schon gesetzt abzuleiten...
Tja, immer im Kreis...
Aber ja, von der Erscheinung gesamthaft, da wäre sie schon Zwillinge MC
und Wassermann MC viel mehr als Löwe/Widder (wie ich). Und eben, vielleicht
beginnen die Widderhörnchen ja schon Ende Fische zu wachsen...
Kleiner Nachtrag zum Scan: Es hat bei der Geburtzeit bei der "1" bzw.
beim Rücken der "6" doch eine kleine Krümmung, die zu einer "6" passen
würde, daher ist die Entscheidung der ADB, nur das Horoskop für 18:45
zu zeigen (mit RR AA) annehmbar, da ja auch die Problematik in den
Source Notes erwähnt wird.
Im Nachhinein war's wohl doch eher ein Scherz? (augenrollendes Smiley wie astro.com forum*)
:)
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wAEkg4sgQoYgIlLEhZEjGXAcOdLwIZIkSpaYYcDkh4smRpw9dLLjiSIzISxAQRLERZQoLjxOoVJ
FwKALVpJQcELUCZIpRahcYcGoAZYsULRo2QKFSxcvTC+x+AImjBgxY8h8kXFpURkW8ZaQZRQIAD
sNCg==
: Im Nachhinein war's wohl doch eher ein Scherz? (augenrollendes Smiley wie astro.com forum*)
Genauer: Aprilscherz... ;)
Nicht unmittelbar astrologisch, diesmal ausnahmsweise als Medium, da ich gestern
an einem Vortrag von einem medial einigermassen bekannten Medium war.
Also, meine Sicht darauf, einfach nach Gefühl mal ausnahmsweise:
Er scheint weitgehend ehrlich darüber zu sein, wie er die Dinge wahrnimmt,
und dabei hat es sicher auch Effekte, die kollektiver Natur sind, und in
dem Sinn auch Sinn machen. Aber, die Dinge sind in meiner Sicht nicht in
allen Fällen tatsächlich so wie er sie wahrnimmt.
Val Sinestra: Da sind die, die das Hotel betreiben einfach sehr
geschäftstüchtig bei dem Hotel an der Grenze zum Nirgendwo,
Die Geschichte mit dem Knecht, der im flachen Fluss betrunken ertrank, die
hätte ich als wahr angeschaut, passt auch vom Umfeld wohl, auch wenn nicht
genau gesagt, wo was war, ich sage das wohl auch weil ich bei Geburt noch
den Heimatort Lützelflüh BE hatte, wo Jeremias Gotthelf geboren wurde, der
u.a. "Die Schwarze Spinne" schrieb, mein s.Mondknoten (mit Neptun und auch
Artemis dort) ist im Skorpion (5. Haus).
Am Interessantesten fand ich die Geschichte mit dem Teppich im Bad der
immer nach den Ferien nass war, und wenn zwischen zwei Badezimmern
ausgetauscht, dann im anderen Badezimmer derselbe Teppich nass. Das Medium
fand dann (anscheinend zweifellos), dass das tatsächlich ein Spuk war und
sie den Teppich (welchen sie auf dem Flohmarkt oder so gekauft hatten)
wegwerfen (weggeben?) sollten, was sie auch taten und seithher trocken.
Als Physiker hätte ich vermutet, dass in den Ferien weniger gelüftet
höhere Luftfeuchtigkeit, und der Teppich irgendwie so gebaut, dass er das
kondensieren lässt, also unmittelbar ein rein physikalischer Effekt. Aber
gefühlt ist da doch was, ob es die betraf, die den Teppich "geerbt"
hatten, kann gut sein, dass nicht, aber war irgendwie doch wichtig genug,
erzählt zu werden die Geschichte, und sei es nur ein Spiegel des Mediums,
wohl es wohl (nach Gefühl und wie angetönt) auch noch einen Christlichen
Hintergrund hätte, was für mich so ca. "Fische" wäre, wohingegen Teppich
an Orient und Islam erinnert (trotz Füssen drauf oft), was ich eher bei
Jungfrau sähe, was durchaus was gespiegelt hätte bei dem Medium.
Mehr schreibe ich nicht, im Sinne der Betroffenen bei der Geschichte...
(auch nichts astrologisches drumherum, findet ihr sicher selbst raus bei
Bedarf)
Ganz genau (zumindest laut "swetest") wäre der Ingress weniger als eine
Sekunde nach:
Do 15. Juni 2023 um 11:49:01 morgens MESZ (09:49:01 UTC)
Sedna bildet da fast exakt ein Trigon zu Pluto auf 29°55'47' Steinbock
(mit Pluto seit So 11. Juni 2023 um 11:35:09 morgens wieder in Steinbock).
Dazu kommt noch der grösste Asteroid des Asteroidengürtes Ceres auf
28°34'47" Jungfrau, also ein grosses Trigon der drei...
Dazu kommt noch etwas weniger genau Neptun auf 27°37'20" Fischen, also
daraus eine Drachen-Aspektfigur mit Neptun an der Spitze...
Nicht verbunden mit Sedna, aber mir doch noch gerade ins Auge gefallen
war, dass es an dem Moment eine Mond-Uranus Konjunktion um 20° Stier
herum hat (was nebenbei nahe von meinem n.Mondknoten wäre, etc.).
Aber mal Fokus auf den "Drachen"...
Ist natürlich, auch da so ein Verbund, schwierig zu sagen was genau
wegen was dann wäre zum Vergleich später, da ja eben Sedna meist nicht
als ein "major Object" in der Astrologie betrachtet wird, zumindest
nicht im Vergleich zu Pluto und Neptun...
Also mal was zu Pluto, insb. zu Pluto im Wassermann, wo er ja jetzt wo
ich das schreibe noch kurz ist, und bald wieder sein wird, bis etwa 2044.
Von einem astrologischen Vortrag von Wolfgang Somary (einem Sohn von
Felix Somary, welcher anscheinend vor früh vor der Weltwirtschaftskrise
der 1920er gewarnt hätte), ist mir eine Sache geblieben, nämlich dass
sich viele Gebiete der "3. Welt" damals von den Kolonialherren befreiten
und eigene Staaten gründeten (wenn auch wirtschaftliche Abhängigkeiten
oft noch bestehen blieben).
Mit Pluto im Wassermann, also gegenüber vom Löwen wird wohl nicht direkt
das umgekehrte passieren, aber dass sich diese Staaten mehr untereinander
vereinen würden, um zusammen stärker zu sein, könnte schon sehr gut sein.
Mit Sedna in den Zwillingen ja vielleicht auch je nachdem sich dem "Westen"
annähern (also grob USA, "Commonwealth" und Europa), oder BRICS (also dem
so langsam entstehenden Verbund von Brasilien, Russland, Indien, China und
Südafrika, mit u.A. auch eigener Währung usw. geplant oder schon bestehend).
Wobei dabei nicht zu vergessen ist, dass die Militärmacht der USA sehr gross
ist, und auch die wirtschaftliche und technologische und marketingmässige...
Also dass vielleicht sich so eine Zwillings-"Spaltung" mit Sedna eher doch
noch einfach auch in den USA spiegeln würde, weiterhin bestimmend, man denke
nur daran wie stark Trump und Putin immer noch verbandelt zu sein scheinen.
Ah, vielleicht sollte ich ja meine Grundhypothese zu Sedna noch erwähnen...
Diese wäre, dass Sedna analog zu Pluto 1930 als erstentdecktes Objekt in
einem neuen Bereich weiter aussen Sonnensystem, die Zeit seit ihrer
Entdeckung 2003/2004 wesentlich prägen würde, und sie vermutlich über die
Waage herrschen würde (oder ev. den Stier), also in der Reihenfolge wie
schon bei Uranus-Saturn, Neptun-Jupiter, Pluto-Mars von der Venus eins
der zwei Domizile erhalten würde. Damit hätte Sedna dann auch Ähnlichkeit
mit Venus, also Schönheit und Geld, und so weiter, was auch sehr gut zu
Selfies und Social Media der Zeit passen würde.
Die vielleicht am Ehesten Königin/Göttin davon, Kim Kardashian, hat ja
ein Jura-Studium begonnen, was wohl schon passen würde von einem Shift
weg von rein der körperlichen Schönheit (ohne die wirklich aufzugeben)
zu intellektuellerem, auch mit Kommunikation, was alles recht gut zu
weg vom Erdzeichen Stier hin zum Luftzeichen Zwillinge passen könnte.
Siehe die Archive meiner früheren Posts auf exactphilosophy.net für noch
mehr so Gedanken um Sedna herum...
Ceres im Trigon sowohl zu Sedna wie auch zu Pluto beim Ingress würde ja
auch einen Bezug zu Landwirtschaft (insb. Korn) bedeuten, was natürlich
gerade für die ärmeren Länder immer noch ein grosses Thema ist, einfach
nur schon genug Nahrung für die ganze Bevölkerung zu haben.
Sedna in den Zwillingen, das könnte auch mehr Diplomatie bedeuten, auch
dass Gruppen die sich sonst nicht ausgetauscht hatten, das mehr tun
würden, wenn auch ggf. oft lange unverbindlich bleiben.
Nicht zuletzt könnten auch geschriebene Kunstwerke entstehen, die "ohne
Finger" geschrieben wohl eher langsam entstehen würden, relativ minimal
wären, aber ev. gerade so bedeutungsvoll, und auch Dinge, die "AI" nicht
so schaffen kann. Gerade wegen "AI" könnten wohl durchschnittliche Werke,
welche einfach nur den Mainstream spiegeln, an Bedeutung verlieren.
Oder dann spreche ich mehr von mir, von meinem aktuellen Buchprojekt,
halt immer schwierig in der Astrologie nicht zu viel zu projizieren...
Ah, noch zu Sedna und Ceres: Bei der letzten Mars-Rückkehr von Putin
waren die konjunkt gegen Ende Stier, plus n.Mondknoten, um die Zeit
herum wo die gigantische Untersee-Vulkanexplosion nahe Tonga in im
Pazifik war, was den immensen militärischen Drive von Putin/Russland
erklären könnte, und die nächste Rückkehr wäre am 31.12.2023, was ja
hoffentlich den Drive reduzieren würde.
Jedenfalls scheint Sedna auch nicht zu garantieren, dass alles Frieden
sein wird, gerade Waage könnte man schon auch mit Militär assoziieren,
als Gegenpol zu Einzelkämpfern, aber die Macht des Pluto mit den
Atombomben (oder auch über Frauen, siehe #MeToo), die könnte vielleicht
(hoffentlich) doch schon nicht mehr absolut sein...
Soviel für heute, ein andermal vielleicht wieder mehr...
Zwillinge und Neugier?
Die Welt ist momentan vielerorts so superflach, was an Schütze
erinnert, nur noch eine hohle dünne Oberfläche, dass vielleicht
nun andere Dinge wieder mehr Aufmerksamkeit bekämen?
On verra... ;)
Ich war am Mittag heute bei der Arbeit alleine was Essen holen und danach Spazieren,
in Zürich an der Limmat, etwas unterhalb vom Escher-Wyss... War besonders für mich,
sehr besonders, sehr harmonisch und entspannt, aber vielleicht auch zusammen mit dem
Mond auf etwas 21.x° Stier an meinem n.Mondknoten (und Uranus mit da herum), und doch
war es irgendwie mehr als ich von dem her erwartet hätte, da auch weder Uranus noch
der Mond generell so eine sanfte Ruhe hervorrufen.
Beim Spazieren kam ich an einem kleinen Garten an einer unerwarteten Stelle vorbei,
wo man offiziell auch ein paar Kräuter oder Beeren pflücken durfte, und ich nahm
da ein paar "Meertrübeli" (Johannisbeeren), nur so etwa 10, und ass sie... Und am
Abend im Malkurs (Chinesische Tuschemalerei) ging bei mir irgendwie nichts, wären
zwei Giraffen gewesen, Mutter und Kind, schönes Motiv, aber irgendwie ging nichts
bei mir, aber war nicht böse deswegen, immer noch entspannt, und die Mallehrerin da
hatte die linke Hand teilweise im Gips (v.a. ein Finger), Unfall mit dem Velo, was
doch alles gar nicht schlecht zu Sedna und ihren fehlenden Fingern passen würde,
mit Fingern (und Händen und Armen bis Schultern) den Zwillingen zugeordnet, und
ein Fahrrad mit den zwei symmetrisch grossen Rädern auch (franz. heisst "Jumelles"
Brille, bzw. unmittelbar "Zwillinge", und ein Fahrrad ist auf deutsch wegen eben
der visuellen Ähnlichkeit auch ein "Nasenfahrrad").
Aber das ist vielleicht alles nur "tastendes Nebenher", wie Hans Sahl mal zu Kafka's
"Das Schloss" schrieb, denn Buchprojekte waren durchaus sehr prominent in meinem
Kopf heute, und irgendwie eben anders als die letzten Jahre, irgendwie, sagen wir
mal sowas wie "unvermeidlicher" ohne die negative Note darin, einfach dass es wohl
sich in die Richtung entwickeln würde, sehr langsam, fast "ohne tippende Finger",
und doch sehr harmonisch einfach entstehen würde, und auch wohl kaum kämpfend auf
sich aufmerksam machend, eher, dass wohl nach ev. ganz minimaler Werbung jemand oder
ein paar Leute auf das eine oder andere nachhaltig aufmerksam würden, oder auch nicht...
Geopolitisch vielleicht schon auch wichtig, dass Selensky heute Nachmittag via
Videocall zum Parlament der Schweiz sprach, sicher auch passend zu den Planeten im
Löwen momentan, und, ja, ein Land das seine Freiheit verteidigt, das spiegelt eben
schon auch die Schweiz, auch wenn ganz direkt helfen formal nicht so einfach ist.
Ja, am Ende braucht die Ukraine natürlich Waffen um sich zu verteidigen, aber das
heisst noch nicht, dass es ideal wäre wenn alle direkt Waffen liefern würden, ganz
im Ganzen gesehen, auch wenn ja...
Aber das alles, ersetzt nicht den schönen Moment. Einen nächsten Wechsel werde ich
wohl kaum erleben*, der letzte war so 1965 / 1966 herum, ich habe Sedna früh im
Stier, also nicht weit davon wo der mittlere n.Mondknoten momentan ist...
* Hey, das wäre ja erstmals praktisch genau an meinem 99. Geburtstag, am 7.8.2065...
)o+
Heute sah ich erstmals in der Stadt ein Werbeplakat für den Film
"Elemental", vgl. allerletzten Post hier (laden dauert eine Weile):
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/noindex/odyssey/astro.html
Strange things are happening... :)
Ich hatte gedacht, der käme erst so diesen August in die Kinos,
glaubte wenigstens mich so daran zu erinneren... Aber wenn man
auf die IMDB zum Film geht, dann steht gleich beim Plakat, das
gezeigt wird, "Opens 15 Jun", also genau gestern wo Sedna in die
Zwillinge kam, auch wenn der Film nicht weltweit dann eröffnet.
Dass ich ja seit Januar 2019 ein Buch mit Titel "ELEMENTAL" plane,
hätte ich bisher nicht so direkt mit Sedna verbunden. Aber sehr,
sehr interessant im Nachhinein. Das Pseudonym worunter ich es
schreiben möchte, hat Bezug zu Kafka, der ein Zwilling war mit
ganzen 5 Planeten (6 mit Chiron) in den Zwillingen, schon daher
wohl der Archetyp eines Schriftstellers. Und das Thema des Buches
wäre eben auch die Elemente ganz elementar aus unmittelbarer
Wahrnehmung der Welt, und das geht zurück auf eine Idee, die ich
im Mai 2004 hatte, also nicht lange nachdem die Entdeckung von
Sedna (Mitte März 2004, basierend auf Fotos vom Herbst 2023)
publik gemacht wurde, und Sedna da nahe von meinem n.Mondknoten
"auftauchte"...
So direkt wie es scheint - da eben der Film "Elemental" mit dem
Eintritt von Sedna in die Zwillinge verbunden ist - hätte ich
nicht erwartet, dass mein geplantes Buch und sein Thema mit den
Elementen daher wohl unmittelbar mit Sedna zusammenhängen...
Also, offenbarte sich die Realität mit Sedna im Stier wie die
nackte Venus ganz harmlos und schön, und dann mit Sedna in den
Zwillingen ginge es dann vielleicht darum, das Wissen aus dem
Meerschaum aufsteigen zu lassen, Worte darüber sich entstehen
zu lassen, die dann auch automatisch irgendwie bei den Leuten
ankämen, fast ganz ohne irgendwie "aktiv" werden zu müssen,
mehr einfach sein, auffindbar sein, und dann...?
Oder auch anders, aber macht im Moment Spass...
Stay tuned... :)
)o+
Bald darauf, ich weiss nicht genau was much "stach", übersetzte
ich letztes Wochenende die Kerntexte meiner Website (also alles
was direkt HTML ist, aber nicht die PDF-Artikel und auch nicht
alls das under "noindex") erstmals auf Deutsch. Der erste Wurf
mit recht viel "deepl.com" fragen, wenn auch fast kein Satz 1:1
von dort so übernommen, aber hatte doch ein paar Übersetzungen
mit dabei, die mich erstaunten, auf die ich ev. nicht so rasch
gekommen wäre, und natürlich hilft sowas als Grundgerüst sowieso
um Zeit zu sparen, nur schon um die Satzstellung mit weniger
Aufwand so umzustellen, dass sie in der anderen Sprache korrekt
sind...
Das wäre ja schon viel mit Zwillingen (also Sedna dort nun...).
Sprachen, Kommunikation, und sieht so aus, wie wenn mit der Zeit
(so in den nächsten paar Wochen) erstmals auf meiner Website
exactphilosophy.net der Haupttext erstmals parallel auf englisch
und auf deutsch erscheinen wird, wie zwei Zwillinge....
Und nicht zuletzt half ja Hermes (Merkur, astrologischer Herrscher
der Zwillinge und der Jungfrau) den drei Schicksalsgöttinnen in
der Mythologie bei der Schaffung des Alphabets... Das Wort, das
Platon für "Element" verwendete was "Stoicheion", was unmittelbarer
anscheinend "Buchstabe" hiess, und allgemeiner wohl "Grundbaustein",
was neben den klassischen Elementen und Buchstaben auch die Sterne
und Planeten im Himmel mit einschloss, soweit sich das heutzutage
aus den Quellen noch bestimmen lässt.
Und weltpolitisch: Könnte es denn sein, dass es vermehrt auch zu
inneren Spaltungen in grösseren Verbänden führen könnte, wie soweit
es jetzt unmittelbar aussieht auch mit Russland und Wagner Söldnern?
Ich dachte erst noch kurz, ob das ev. eine Finte wäre, um die
Offensive der Ukrainer ev. etwas zu bremsen, aber der Versuch die
Wagnersöldner offiziell zu russischen Soldaten zu machen, war da
wohl eher der Auslöser, bzw. dass der Russische Staat von Putins
Gnaden einfach in vielfacher Hinsicht international nur noch knapp
konkurrenzfähig ist, mit Strukturen zu sehr aus der Vergangenheit,
was natürlich schade ist, denn dumm wären die Leute da ja nicht,
die könnten durchaus was Eigenständiges und doch Modernes schaffen.
Aber müssen die selbst schauen...
Im Folgenden ein Nachtrag zu folgendem Buch:
Titel: Elementare Sternzeichen
Autor: Alain Stalder (Dipl. Phys. ETH, Dr. rer. nat., *1966)
Verlag: Artecat Alain Stalder
ISBN: 978-3-90691400-8
Erschienen: Januar 2018
Format: Taschenbuch 19.05 cm × 19.05 cm (7.5" × 7.5"), Dicke ca. 9 mm
Farben: Innen schwarz/weiss (Text, Abbildungen und Tabellen), Umschlag farbig
Sprache: Deutsch
Seiten: 160
Wie heute auch auf der Webseite zum Buch publiziert:
https://www.artecat.ch/elementare-sternzeichen.html#nachtrag
--
Nachtrag (Juni 2023)
Im Nachhinein gesehen, waren Buchtitel und Beschreibung vielleicht für
einige Leser ein bisschen irreführend, daher hier ein Versuch, möglichst
direkt zu umreissen, was im Buch ist, da es aus meiner Sicht als
Physiker mit über 20 Jahren Erfahrung in der Astrologie ein *wichtigeres
Buch* ist, *als es oberflächlich scheinen möchte*:
Im Buch geht um eine ganz *neuartige* Beschreibung der zwölf *Zeichen* des
(westlichen/tropischen) *Tierkreises*, also von Widder, Stier, Zwillingen,
Krebs, Löwe, Jungfrau, Waage, Skorpion, Schütze, Steinbock, Wassermann
und Fische, neuartig beschrieben *als Wandlungen zwischen den vier
Elementen der klassischen Antike, Feuer, Luft, Wasser und Erde*. So wären
z.B. die drei Feuerzeichen Widder, Löwe und Schütze verschiedene Stadien
eines Feuers, bei dem Brennmaterial ("Erde") durch Feuer in v.a. Rauch
("Luft") verwandelt wird, also der Widder bestünde v.a. aus Erde, der
Löwe v.a. aus Feuer, der Schütze v.a. aus Luft, was sich in vielerlei
Hinsicht symbolisch in den typischerweise den jeweiligen
Tierkreiszeichen zugewiesenen Eigenschaften und Themen spiegelt. Hier
ist *wesentlich zu betonen*, dass die aus dem neuen Zugang resultierenden
Eigenschaften der Tierkreiszeichen *praktisch identisch zu bisherigen
Sichtweisen und Auffassungen* sind, es werden aber *neuartige,
einleuchtend logische Verbindungen zwischen den Zeichen offenbart*, die
sich bisher überhaupt nicht aus irgendwas ableiten liessen, es besteht
also ein *wesentlicher Mehrwert*, dessen Bedeutung für die Astrologie und
ihrer Wahrnehmung in der Welt kaum überbewertet werden kann.
Es ist *kein Buch rein über "Sonnenzeichen"*, also das Zeichen in dem
astrologisch die Sonne bei Geburt war (was "Sternzeichen" statt
"Tierkreiszeichen" offenbar bei vielen Astrologen evoziert), wobei darin
durchaus auch mehr wäre, als heutige Astrologen aus am Ende überwiegend
scheinheilig-eingenützigen Argumenten zugeben würden. So ist es z.B.
kaum ein Zufall, dass der Fisch-Sonne Albert Einstein eine
Relativitätstheorie entdeckte und der Waage-Sonne Niels Bohr zu einer
unauflösbaren Dualität von Welle und Teilchen in der Quantenmechanik
gelangte, je als recht wichtige oder gar zentrale Errungenschaft in
deren Leben.
Es ist auch *kein Buch primär für Anfänger*, wie besonders das Wort
"elementary" im englischen Titel vielen englischsprachigen Lesern ev.
suggeriert hatte; "elemental" wäre auf englisch besser gewesen, da sich
das etwas exklusiver auf Elemente beschränkt, auch wenn das Buch
durchaus so gedacht ist, dass es praktisch ohne Vorkenntnisse gelesen
werden kann, mit vielleicht etwas "Google und Wikipedia" an der Seite.
Wie im Buch gezeigt, lassen sich *antike Wurzeln*, die eine solche
Wandlung mindestens unbewusst teilweise gespiegelt hätten, um Apuleius'
Aufgaben der Psyche in "Der Goldene Esel" soweit zumindest *nicht sicher
ausschliessen*, und sonst wäre das wohl vermutlich noch unbewusster
geschehen, als am Ende Spiegeln des Lebens und der Natur. Es scheint
jedenfalls unwahrscheinlich, dass die neuen Entdeckungen keine zumindest
unbewusste Tradition hätten, die Tausende von Jahren zurückreichen
würde, denn sonst könnten die neuen Entdeckungen lang beschriebene
Sichten auf die Tierkreiszeichen kaum derart genau in allen Details
spiegeln.
*Ich hoffe, dass vielleicht jemand mal über das hier stolpert* @@,
oder auch über einen anderen Ort, wo ich über die Jahre schon seit
2002 versucht hatte, diese (aus meiner Sicht) für Astrologen und auch
die Welt sehr wichtige neu entdeckte Struktur im Tierkreis
"rüberzubringen", und es dann einfach *"klick!" machen würde* und dann
mittelfristig fast jede und jeder davon erführe...
In the following an addendum to the following book:
Title: Elementary Star Signs
Author: Alain Stalder (Dipl. Phys. ETH, Dr. rer. nat. (Ph.D. in physics), *1966)
Publisher: Artecat Alain Stalder
ISBN: 978-3-90691403-9
First published: March 2018
Format: Paperback 7.5" × 7.5" (19.05 cm × 19.05 cm), about 3/8" thick (9 mm)
Colors: Black&white inside (text, illustrations and tables), cover in color
Language: English
Pages: 160
As also published on the books's webpage today:
https://www.artecat.ch/elementary-star-signs.html#addendum
--
Addendum (June 2023)
In retrospect, book title and description may have been a little bit
misleading to some readers, hence here an attempt to outline as directly
as possible what is in the book, since from my point of view as a
physicist with over 20 years of experience in astrology, it is a *more
important book than it might superficially appear*:
This book is about an entirely *novel* description of the twelve *signs* of
the (Western/Tropical) *zodiac*, i.e. Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo,
Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces,
described in a novel way *as transformations between the four elements of
classical antiquity, Fire, Air, Water and Earth*. For example, the three
fire signs Aries, Leo and Sagittarius would be different stages of a
fire in which combustible material ("Earth") is transformed by Fire into
primarily smoke ("Air"), thus Aries would consist primarily of Earth,
Leo primarily of Fire, Sagittarius primarily of Air, which in many ways
is symbolically reflected in the characteristics and themes typically
assigned to the respective signs of the zodiac. It is *essential to
emphasize* that the properties of the signs of the zodiac resulting from
the new approach are *practically identical to previous views and
perceptions*, but *novel, plausibly logical connections between the signs
are revealed*, which could not be derived from anything at all up to now,
so there is an *essential added value*, the importance of which for
astrology and its perception in the world can hardly be overestimated.
This is *not a book purely about "sun signs"*, i.e. the sign in which
astrologically the sun was at birth (what apparently "star sign" instead
of "zodiac sign" evokes in many astrologers), although there would be
more to that than today's astrologers would admit, for mostly
hypocritically self-serving arguments in the end. For example, it is
hardly a coincidence that the Pisces sun Albert Einstein discovered a
Theory of Relativity and the Libra sun Niels Bohr arrived at an
irresolvable duality of wave and particle in quantum mechanics, for each
of them as a quite important or even central achievement in their lives.
This is also *not a book primarily for beginners*, as especially the word
"elementary" in the English title had maybe suggested to many
english-speaking readers; "elemental" would have been better, since that
term somewhat more exclusively refers to elements, even though the book
is quite intended to be accessible with practically no prior knowledge,
perhaps as long as there is some "Google and Wikipedia" at the side.
As shown in the book, *ancient roots*, which would have mirrored such a
transformation at least unconsciously in parts, *cannot be excluded with
certainty* around Apuleius' Tasks of Psyche in "The Golden Ass", and
otherwise this would have presumably happened even more unconsciously,
as at the end mirroring life and nature. In any case, it seems unlikely
that the new findings would not at least have an unconscious tradition
that would go back thousands of years, otherwise they could hardly
mirror long documented views on the zodiac signs so precisely in all
details.
*I hope that maybe someday someone will stumble across this* @@,
or across some other place where I had tried over the years, already
since 2002, to bring "across" this (from my point of view) for
astrologers and also the world very important newly discovered structure
in the zodiac, and that it would then *simply make "click!"* and in the
medium term almost everyone would hear about it...
: Und weltpolitisch: Könnte es denn sein, dass es vermehrt auch zu
: inneren Spaltungen in grösseren Verbänden führen könnte, wie soweit
: es jetzt unmittelbar aussieht auch mit Russland und Wagner Söldnern?
Was natürlich auch mit Zwillingen assoziiert wird, ist schnell zu sein,
insbesondere im Vergleich zum oft als eher langsam und stur betrachteten
Stier (fixes Zeichen, Zwillinge sind veränderlich/flexibel). Und dass
Kommunikation wichtig ist, also auch so diplomatischere Wege gefunden
werden können. Und vielleicht eben auch, dass sich Zwillinge eher eignen
würden um ganz neue Ideen zu vermitteln, vielleicht auch spielerischer,
jünger (Zwillinge als das jüngste Luftzeichen, das erste im Tierkreis),
und eben umgekehrt auch mehr Interesse was Neues zu lernen...
Jedenfalls meine Website wird wohl auch deutsch auch kommen, nach wie
fast immer auf exactphilosophy.net einigem hin und her... Und vielleicht
etwas später in der Zukunft auf mal auf französisch, wobei ich da wohl
doch öfters zu wenig "fluent" wäre um bei allem beurteilen zu können,
ob es nun passend formuliert wäre und ohne wesentliche Fehler...
Aber vielleicht ist ja irgendwann in den kommenden 20 Jahren (ab
Jupiter-Saturn konjunkt früh Wassermann Dezember 2020), die Technologie
einfach soweit, dass sie sowieso alles on-the-fly sehr gut in einige
oder fast alle Sprachen übersetzen könnte? Wohl für viele Zwecke schon,
aber ob gerade für exactphilosophy.net? Und wie schön wäre es vielleicht,
antike Texte in Latein, altgriechisch, Keilschrift, Hieroglyphen, usw.
einfach so lesen zu können, auch ab Bildern? Und doch, da ja die deep
language models sich im Wesentlichen auf das Wissen der Menschen
abstützt, also weiter als der Stand der Forschung bzgl. antiker Sprachen
wird es halt auch nicht gehen können, und dort ist ja doch auch einiges
je nachdem noch im Fluss, wegen wenigen Artefakten noch schwierig zu
sagen was genau ein Wort an Bedeutungen umschloss, aber auch da könnten
solche maschinelle Schemen sicher was helfen...
Wer englisch kann, sollte sicher mal lesen, mind. den Anfang davon, was
Stephen Wolfram ("Mathematica", "A New Kind of Science") darüber schreibt,
wie die funktionieren, was auch meine Erfahrungen spiegelt, wie schlecht
ChatGPT abschnitt wenn es um das Zitieren von Quellen ging, er oft Dinge
erfand, die es so nicht gab, einfach weil er einfach nur Sätze ca. so wie
am Wahrscheinlichsten weiterführt, und kein wirkliches Konzept von
"Fakten" hat...
What Is ChatGPT Doing … and Why Does It Work?
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-doing-and-why-does-it-work/
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wolfram
Und wenn es jemand auf deutsch übersetzen möchte, dann nehmt doch bitte
nicht einfach Google Translate, das ist nämlich heutzutage vergleichs-
weise grottenschlecht, sondern kopiert Texte und pasted sie bei deepl.com
rein, ist übrigens eine deutsche Firma dahinter (Köln):
https://www.deepl.com/de/translator
https://www.deepl.com/press
Leider auf Anhieb kein Geburtsdatum des Gründers, Jaroslaw Kutylowski....
Seine Dissertation "Using mobile relays for ensuring connectivity in
sparse networks" war 2007 an der Universität Paderborn:
https://digital.ub.uni-paderborn.de/hsmig/content/titleinfo/4914
Ah, hier stünde schon mal Monat und Jahr, Januar 1983:
https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/people/27643776-dr-jaroslaw-kutylowski
Und Geburt wäre in Polen gewesen. Da denke ich gleich wieder an die zwei
polnischen Politiker, die identische *Zwillinge* sind, bzw. waren...
Hier spricht Kutylowski gleich am Anfang davon, wie eine besser Sprach-
übersetzung in der Verständigung helfen könnte, und so auch Probleme
lösen, wenn natürlich auch nicht alle Verständigungsprobleme lösen:
AI Translation for a Better World:
Jaroslaw Kutylowski / Founder and CEO of DeepL
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/2058966/
Stay tuned...
Bleibt wohl doch einfach bei exactphilosophy.net auf englisch,
zumindest für noch eine recht lange Weile, aber ich bin es halt
nicht, der irgendwas entscheiden würde...
Und ja, im Kern ist eben die Website so wie sie jetzt ist doch so
wie sie sein sollte, es ist alles klar beschrieben, sollte es nur mal
jemand einfach Wort für Wort lesen...
wei-chi I:I :I: but if the little fox...
Doch. Jetzt gerade eine Version auf deutsch der Titelseite mit Menüs
für Desktop und Mobile, die für mich "gut zum Druck" aussieht, also
dann doch, und ev. ja dann noch in mehr Sprachen, französisch könnte
ich mit deepl ggf. noch in vertretbarer Qualität hinkriegen, italienisch
oder gar spanisch würde noch etwas schwieriger...
wei chi...
Und doch faszinierend, wie rasch nach dem Eintritt der Sedna in die
Zwillinge das sich entwickelt, und irgendwie entgegen von dem was
man(n) sich so denken würde, was am Meisten helfen würde, um die
Dinge zu vermitteln, aber...
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Subject: Schöne_Weihnachten - Artikel "Cargo-Kult-Astrologie"
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Gleich unten eine reine Textversion meines Artikels “Cargo-Kult-Astrologie”,
den ich etwa vor einem Jahr erstmals auf meiner Website veröffentlicht hatte.
Beachtet, dass der letzte Satz “Am Ende waren und sind doch [die Astrologen]
primär verantwortlich, nicht ich.” nicht urteilt, ob, wie es herauskam, etwas
“gutes” oder etwas “schlechtes” war, weder für mich noch die Astrologen noch
für die Welt. Jedenfalls, ausgenommen vielleicht von diesem rückläufigen
Merkur, bin ich weitergezogen um vielleicht “andere Bäume anzubellen”... ;)
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/cargo-kult-astrologie.pdf
--
Cargo-Kult-Astrologie
Stand Sommer 2022, ist nichts von dem, was ich jemals in und um
Astrologie gemacht habe, dort wirklich “gelandet”, in dem Sinn, dass es
ohne mein direktes Zutun weiterhin Interesse erwecken würde, nicht
einmal nach fast 20 Jahren und vielen Artikeln und einem Buch,
währenddem ein einziger Artikel über das I Ging mehr Resonanz
hervorrief. Im Folgenden einige Gedanken “in Spiralen” – in den
Spiralen, in denen sie sich ab Januar 2022 entfaltet hatten, leicht
_polemisch_ hier und da, vielleicht; bewahrt als **Zeitzeugnis** dafür,
wie die Dinge zu der Zeit so schienen in der Welt… So gut es ging im
August 2022 aus dem Original auf Englisch übersetzt, eher auf den Fluss
im Original Rücksicht genommen als auf übliche Formulierungen auf
Deutsch…
*
Die Astrologen sind ihrer Vielzahl von Weltanschauungen 100% treu
geblieben, bevorzugen keine daraus mehr als individuell ihre eigene
persönliche Sicht, normalerweise eingebunden in verschiedene Strömungen
in der Astrologie und normalerweise inklusive dem grössten Teil des
Mainstream, und im Wesentlichen immun gegen jegliche Argumente oder
“Beweise”, nur schon dass ein paar Vereinfachungen bzgl. wie die Dinge
miteinander verbunden sind, irgendetwas wert wären, ziehen es vor,
weiter zu träumen, von einer Verbindung mit den “Sternen” oder worauf
auch immer sie Lust haben.
Seit Ende August 2021 hat astro.com einen neuen Slogan: “Die Kunst der
Astrologie”. Das spiegelt den Zugang zur Welt bei astro.com und in einem
Grossteil der selbsternannten “Cargo-Kult”-Lifescience-Astrologie, die
astro.com unterstützt, sowie die vieler Kunden von astro.com, recht gut
wider: Es gibt keine Kriterien dafür, was in der Astrologie Beachtung
findet, ausser dem, was Astrologen gefällt!
Im Juni 2002 hatte ich nicht erwartet gehabt, dass jeder das, was ich
veröffentlichte, verstehen und mögen würde, aber ich erwartete, dass
zumindest einige das tun würden, darunter auch Alois Treindl, Physiker
und Gründer/CEO der Astrodienst AG (die Firma, der astro.com gehört),
und Liz Greene, Psychologin/Astrologin und damals Chefastrologin der
Astrodienst AG. Ich dachte, dass die zwei, insbesondere da mein Modell
direkt davon abgeleitet war, wie Liz Greene die Sternzeichen beschrieben
hatte, und die beiden zusammen das computergenerierte psychologische
Horoskop geschaffen hatten, den einzigartigen Wert meines einfacheren
Modells als Schlüssel zu einem besseren und analytischeren Verständnis
der Sternzeichen erkennen würden, und auch dass dies ein Türöffner für
den Nachweis der Astrologie sein würde, der über das “Ghetto” der
Astrologie hinausreichen würde.
Es kam anders.
Anfang 2005 sagte mir AT, dass er LG damals (2002) mein ursprüngliches
Dokument gezeigt hatte und sie es dann für “zu theoretisch” befunden
hatte, während AT selbst mir, anscheinend noch unbeeindruckenderweise
oberflächlich, mitteilte, dass es ohnehin nichts Neues sei, und sich auf
ein relativ altes Schweizer Buch bezog, worin, nachdem ich ein
antiquarisches Exemplar für ca. 100$ bestellt hatte, sich herausstellte,
dass dort einfach die traditionelle Zuordnung der Elemente zu den
Jahreszeiten im Kreis des Aristoteles beschrieben wurde, und später
hatte AT auch noch den Nerv, mich als exzentrisch und meine Wahl des
Domainnamens “exactphilosophy. net” als übertrieben zu bezeichnen, was,
vermute ich, wohl bedeutet, dass er der Mittelpunkt von Allem wäre und
dass “astro.com” – was sowohl “Astrologie” als auch “Astronomie” und
mehr namentlich abdeckt – ultimative Bescheidenheit widerspiegeln würde.
Was Astrodienst/astro.com für die unmittelbaren Bedürfnisse und Wünsche
der zeitgenössischen Astrologen tut, ist kein Problem, das ist in der
Regel von guter bis sehr guter Qualität; das Problem ist das, was sie
umgehen und wovon sie flüchten, zusammen mit praktisch allen Astrologen.
Aber zurück zu der Frage, warum Astrologen dieses lieben und jenes
nicht: In meinem allgemeinen Modell wäre dies hauptsächlich wegen
unbewusstem kollektiven Feedback, der sich in Gefühlen manifestiert, mit
anderen Worten, die Schicksalsgöttinnen würden offenbar einfach nicht
wollen, dass die Menschen sich meine Entdeckungen offen und von nahe
betrachten, zumindest noch nicht, und es gäbe nichts in meiner Macht,
was das ändern könnte, solange die Schicksalsgöttinnen nicht wollen,
dass dies geschieht, währenddem sie es, wann immer sie es in der Zukunft
wollen möchten, vermutlich im Handumdrehen tun könnten…
*
Wenn ihr jetzt vielleicht denkt, dass ich oben übertrieben hätte, was
die Sichtweise zeitgenössischer Astrologen angeht, lest die folgenden
Zitate aus dem Forum auf astro.com im Januar 2022:
*Waybread*:
: Astrologie ist im Grunde genommen sowieso eine subjektive Kunst. Ich
: denke, eine gute Analogie ist mit der Malerei als bildende Kunst. Es
: gibt bestimmte Regeln für Perspektive, Farbe und Komposition. Aber
: danach trifft der Maler viele subjektive Entscheidungen, und der
: Betrachter entscheidet dann, ob sie/er das Bild gut findet oder nicht.
*Linda Harris*:
: In der Zwischenzeit, BENUTZT Euer System. Und wenn es funktioniert, was
: kümmert es Euch, wer es sonst noch benutzt? Ich glaube nicht, dass es
: die Aufgabe eines Astrologen ist, die Art und Weise, wie andere
: Astrologen ihre Arbeit machen, oder die Art und Weise, wie sie diese
: Arbeit gerne machen, zu ändern. Ich bin der Ansicht, dass wir hier sind,
: um denen zu helfen, die die Sprache des “menschlichen Verhaltens” nicht
: so sprechen wie wir… um Teil ihrer “Lösung” und nicht Teil ihres
: “Problems” zu sein.
*zed234* (nach dem Lesen meines Artikel “Elementare Sternzeichen”):
: Es ist eine interessante Diskussion über die Ursprünge der Sternzeichen
: und wie sie sich zueinander verhalten. Aber als beratender Astrologe ist
: das für mich einfach zu grob vereinfachend, um es in irgendeiner Weise
: als Hilfsmittel für einen Klienten zu verwenden. Ich besitze mehrere
: Bücher über die Geschichte und Entwicklung der Astrologie, und ich habe
: diese Diskussion oder mehrere, die damit zusammenhängen, schon mehrmals
: gesehen. Sehr interessant. Aber nicht sehr nützlich für einen
: praktizierenden Astrologen. Aber vielleicht VERSTEHE ICH DAS NICHT. Wenn
: ja, könntest Du mir vielleicht zeigen, wie das in der Analyse
: funktionieren würde.
Man könnte jetzt meinen, dass die letzten beiden Sätze eine Gelegenheit
bieten würden, aber man beachte, dass das, was ich in dem Artikel
geschrieben hatte, sowie in dem Faden und in dem, was öffentlich lesbar
ist von meinem gleichnamigen Buch (zu dem ich auch einen Link gepostet
hatte), keine Glocken läuten liess, und es scheint sogar, dass er selbst
grundlegende Dinge völlig missverstanden hatte, wie “über die Ursprünge
der Zeichen” oder dass er “diese Diskussion oder in mehreren damit
zusammenhängenden mehrmals gesehen hätte”, ausserdem kommentierte er
Linda Harris’ Beitrag mit “Schöner Beitrag, Lainie!”. Irgendwann hat man
einfach genug gesehen, um die Hoffnung aufrechtzuerhalten, selbst für
den immer unwahrscheinlicher werdenden Fall, dass irgendetwas, was ich
tun könnte, zu meinen Lebzeiten irgendetwas ändern würde, ausser
vielleicht, wenn ich die mächtigste Waffe der Welt, den Spiegel,
einsetzen würde, nämlich dass ich die Dinge einfach ruhen lasse, dann
wären die Astrologen nur mit sich selbst konfrontiert…
*
Fairerweise muss ich erwähnen, dass drei der sechs Rezensenten meines
Buches “Elementare Sternzeichen” im Jahr 2018 tatsächlich die Grundidee
begriffen hatten (Christoph Schubert-Weller, Victor Olliver und Jutta
Stemmer), auch wenn fast sicher niemand davon das Potenzial begriffen
hat, während zumindest Jutta Stemmer mir Anfang 2019 per E-Mail
mitteilte, dass sie das Buch ihren Schülern an ihrer Astrologieschule in
München als Lektüre empfiehlt. Aber um auf den Anfang zurückzukommen:
Meine Kernidee ist nicht um die Astrologie herum zentriert, also wenn
ich einfach das weitermache, wo mein Herz ist, wird es höchstens (wenn
überhaupt) noch ein weiteres Buch über Astrologie geben, das viele
Ideen, die ich über Astrologie habe, kurz antönt, aber ohne Interesse
und nachhaltige Unterstützung durch Astrologen, sind weitere Versuche,
meine “elementalen Tierkreiszeichen” zu bewerben, unwahrscheinlich.
Ein wichtiger Grund für diese Entscheidung ist auch, dass das, was ich
über die elementaren Sternzeichen geschrieben habe, vielleicht nicht
perfekt und noch nicht in Hollywood-Manier für jedermann zugänglich ist
– aber ich erwarte von Astrologen einige grundlegende Fähigkeiten und
Kenntnisse, und daran mangelte es insgesamt eindeutig—kurz, ich sehe es
nicht als mein Schicksal an, gegen die Idiokratie zu kämpfen, gegen
Hindernisse, die sich zeitgenössische Astrologen *rein nur vorstellen*,
wo es in Wirklichkeit praktisch gar keine gibt, selbst wenn ich es
gewesen wäre, der diese Hindernisse durch die Art, wie ich schreibe,
unwissentlich geschaffen hätte.
Mir ist gerade etwas klar geworden, und zwar durch einen Beitrag in
demselben Faden, den ich oben zweimal zitiert habe, nämlich dass die
psychologische Astrologie hauptsächlich Wasser/Feuer wäre, während die
wissenschaftlichen Theorien hauptsächlich Luft/Erde sind, was auf eine
Idee aus dem Discoveries Dokument von 2002 zurückgeht, was natürlich
einige meiner Erfahrungen widerspiegeln würde, und ich hatte
wahrscheinlich unterschätzt, wie viel Energie nötig wäre, um solche
Dinge zusammenzubringen, und es könnte besser gelaufen sein, als ich es
mir vorgestellt hatte.
Zum Beispiel, in Bezug auf Astrodienst/astro.com würde es Sinn machen,
dass das Unternehmen von einem Physiker (AT) gegründet wurde und
geleitet wird und “Dienst” im Namen trägt, da es Luft/Erde in einer
dienenden Rolle für die Astrologie wäre, welche die Werkzeuge für die
Astrologie (Wasser/Feuer), kollektive wässrige Ströme und individuelle
feurige Funken für Lieblingsmethoden, zur Verfügung stellt, und es würde
auch erklären, warum AT die Beurteilung meines Discovery Dokuments von
2002 praktisch ausschliesslich an LG delegiert hat, die es als “zu
theoretisch” beurteilt hatte, mit anderen Worten, es enthält zu viel vom
Element Luft, passt also daher nicht zur Astrologie. Ich bin endlich
erleichtert/erlöst.
Heute am Abend des 20. Januar 2022 haben sich im astro.com Forum doch
noch einige interessante Dinge entwickelt und vielleicht werde ich meine
Beiträge oder eine Auswahl daraus irgendwann noch präsentieren,
vielleicht sogar schon, wenn ihr dies hier lest. Etwas später heute
Abend wird es eine exakte Opposition von Saturn im Transit zu meiner
Geburtssonne in Löwe geben (die einzige in diesem Saturn-Zyklus), und
eines der Ergebnisse davon könnte eine breitere Sichtweise von mir auf
das Element Luft sein, kurz gesagt, dass ich die Luft vielleicht (neben
viel Logik) auch als etwas Soziales sehen werde, inspiriert von Robert
Pirsig, nicht unwahrscheinlich auch deshalb, weil ich selbst keine Luft
in meinem Horoskop habe, so dass dieses scheinbar winzige bisschen
Information in der Zukunft hilfreich sein könnte und vielleicht auch in
Kürze einen Lead im Kerninhalt meiner Website wert.
Ah, wenigstens etwas, immer schön für einen Forscher in der Physik, neue
Dinge herauszufinden.
*
Letzte Nacht, wahrscheinlich schon heute in den frühen Morgenstunden,
hatte ich den folgenden Traum:
[Usenet: Im Post und im Artikel war der Text “safrangelb”.]
: Ich war bei Astrodienst, aber es war anders dort in dem Traum, eine Art
: grosser Loft, nur ein grosser Raum, vielleicht 20m x 25m, und da war
: eine Frau, ein bisschen wie Dolly Parton, auch wenn ich sie nicht genau
: gesehen hatte, also sehr intelligent und auch lustig [sie war wie Dolly
: Parton deswegen, es gab weder eine bestimmte Haarfarbe noch eine
: bestimmte Körperform ausser eindeutig weiblich in dem Traum], und wir
: gingen zu einem Ende des Raumes, oder besser gesagt fast in eine Ecke,
: und dort war auch der Gründer/CEO von Astrodienst, in einem ziemlich
: bequemen Bürostuhl, zurückgelehnt, fast schon liegend, und die Frau gab
: mir ein Geschenk, einen Umschlag, der vielleicht 2x so gross war wie
: US-Letter Format, braun, und darin war ein gelber Pullover, mit
: V-Ausschnitt und aufgestickten Quadraten von ca. 2” oder etwas weniger,
: beides nicht wirklich meine Art von Pullover, und dahinter ca. 3 gelbe
: Hemden, mit Knöpfen und so, alles nicht wirklich meine Art von Kleidung
: (das wären eher Rundkragen und T-Shirts), aber ich hatte mich im Traum
: sehr über das Geschenk gefreut, und AT im Stuhl “brummelte” etwas wie,
: dass mir das Geschenk geben übertrieben wäre, und das war, glaube ich,
: weil ich nicht bei Astrodienst arbeite, aber dann sagte er nichts mehr,
: und dann lief die Frau wieder durch den Raum, erstaunlicherweise in die
: gleiche Richtung wie vorher, und diesmal eindeutig in einem gelben Kleid
: [alle gelben Kleider im Traum waren sonnig und warm, nicht
: Zitronengelb], einem ganz besonderen, schönen, mit aufgestickten
: Ornamenten…
Im Westen ist Gelb das Feuer, in China die Erde (Saturn), die Mitte
(also auch China selbst), und die Farbe der Kaiser, und es erinnert auch
an die Sonne, Psyches zweite Aufgabe und das goldene Vlies (Kleidung,
die auch an Vesta erinnert), und über Weiss-Rot-Schwarz thronend ist es
auch die schwer fassbare Farbe chlōrós der Grossen Göttin (mit vielen
Namen) selbst, diesmal in einem Farbton, der an Honig erinnert, und
vielleicht da der Traum bei Astrodienst spielte, auch auf etwas
Greeneres angespielt… auf jeden Fall scheint es eine Anerkennung durch
die Schicksalsgöttinnen zu geben. (Und natürlich spiegelte dies den
Transit von Saturn in Opposition zu meiner Geburtssonne wider.)
(Im Nachhinein, von Juni 2022 aus gesehen, fast genau zur
Sommersonnenwende, siehe das Reife-Initiierungsritual der Artemis als
Bärin in Bauron, bei dem junge Mädchen (und offenbar manchmal auch
Jungen) [safran]safrangelbe[/safran] kurze Röcke trugen (welche früher
in der Geschichte die Bärenfelle ersetzt hatten), die möglicherweise am
Ende des Rituals abgelegt wurden. [safran]Safrangelb[/safran] war
ziemlich genau die Farbe in dem Traum, und ich glaube mich sogar daran
zu erinnern, dass ich in dem Beitrag mit dem Traum im astro.com Forum
zuerst versehentlich ‘skirt’ (Rock) statt ‘shirt’ (Hemd) geschrieben
hatte, was im Nachhinein vielleicht ein artemisianischer Versprecher
war… Und das ‘V’ in V-Ausschnitt könnte für Vesta/Hestia stehen…)
Möglicherweise war es meine Saturn-Rückkehr von 1996 in Montréal (Saturn
spät im 5. Haus, Trigon zum MC spät im Krebs und Trigon zu Pluto früh im
Schützen im 2.), welche viele Ideen hervorbrachte (und viel Arbeit war,
da nahe an der Spitze des 6.), diese aber offenbar auch für die
Öffentlichkeit (10.) nicht relevant erscheinen lässt – vielleicht(!)
auch, weil der s.Mondknoten damals dort war, wo mein Mond bei der Geburt
stand, im 10. Haus etwa 5° weiter als mein MC? Zumindest die erste
Rückkehr von dreien 2025/2026 hätte Saturn im 10. Haus (mit Ceres,
n.Mondknoten und Neptun), vorausgesetzt, ich wäre dann immer noch zu
Hause “auf meiner Insel Ithaka” in Adliswil, Schweiz. Das Buch
ELEMENTAL, das ich seit Anfang Januar 2019 immer wieder ab und zu
eingleise, würde darauf hindeuten, dass die erste dieser drei Rückkehren
für die 29 Jahre danach am relevantesten sein könnte bezüglich Dingen
von öffentlichem Interesse für meine Funde – vielleicht?
(Im Rückblick, von Juni 2022 aus gesehen, scheint es eher so zu sein,
dass eine Rückkehr ganz genau den Zeitraum bis zur nächsten Rückkehr
beeinflusst, so dass die dritte von dreien diejenige wäre, die man für
die etwa 29 Jahre, die maximal folgen könnten, betrachten sollte, und
diese hätte interessanterweise die Häuser fast wie bei meiner Geburt, wo
es nur bis zur nächsten Rückkehr im Februar 1967 gedauert hatte, die
dann meinen Saturn im 11. Haus platziert hatte, was wahrscheinlich gut
zu meinem Studium und meiner Arbeit, je in die Mainstream-Physik
integriert, gepasst hatte.)
Aber wie wäre es denn, wenn ich mich stattdessen einfach zurücklehnen
würde und darauf vertrauen würde, dass die Leute schon kommen werden,
beides Attribute der Fische, und vielleicht sogar noch mehr, wenn sie am
Ende der Fische stehen, plus Saturn, der Minimalismus mag, und dann
einfach nur warten… bis Leute kommen, die dann endlich in der Lage
wären, meinen “Saturn im 10. Haus zu sehen”, verstärkt durch Ceres mit
sanftem Wachstum, mit einem erfrischenden Hollywood-Style kardinalen
Widder-Halo durch Neptun um davon zu träumen, und geboostert durch den
n.Mondknoten? Könnte mein Traum, den Dingen einfach beim Wachsen
zuzusehen, wahr werden, indem ich warte, Vertrauen habe und hier und da
aushelfe? Wünscht mir Glück, denn meine Entdeckungen sind sehr schön,
reichhaltig und nützlich/hilfreich, für fast jeden, zumindest in der
Zukunft.
(Wiederum vom Juni 2022 aus gesehen, könnte ein Saturn im 9. Haus
vielleicht hauptsächlich das einfach nur Warten sein, plus vielleicht
auch hier und da ein paar Dinge fallen lassen, gut spiegeln, und selbst
für diese Rückkehr wäre Neptun im frühen Widder, nur ein kleines Stück
voraus, also könnte es Hollywood werden, auch weil das 9. Haus dazu in
verschiedener Hinsicht passen würde. Vielleicht würde das, was bereits
öffentlich ist, einfach reichen und sich die Wahrnehmung ändern?)
*
Zusammenfassend wäre die uranische Spaltung der Welt in “Astrologie” und
“Astronomie” – im Nachhinein nicht erstaunlich – tiefer, als ich
naiverweise annahm, und da derzeit niemand wirklich unter dieser
“Arbeitsteilung” leidet gibt es wenig unmittelbaren Druck, in dieser
Hinsicht etwas zu ändern. Warum sollte ich mir also allzu grosse Sorgen
machen? Que sera, sera…
Das alles schliesst nicht aus, dass ich vielleicht eines Tages ein
weiteres Buch über Astrologie schreibe oder zumindest meine Beiträge
archiviere, aber das alles eher, um einige Dinge zu bewahren, als um sie
zu promoten. Ich schätze, weil ich keine Luft in meinem Geburtshoroskop
habe, gibt es für mich keine Erde als Ziel (siehe mein Modell der
elementaren Wandlungen in den Sternzeichen), also keinen Drang, Dinge
wortwörtlich in der Welt zu manifestieren. Aber ein paar Samen, die zu
wachsen beginnen würden, wären trotzdem schön, da zumindest Ceres und
1969 Alain in den Zwillingen (Luftzeichen) stehen, was auch auf
schriftliche Veröffentlichungen hindeutet. Und so weiter.
Nur im Fall: Nach fast 20 Jahren ist meiner Meinung nach die Reaktion
der Astrologie insgesamt _unentschuldbar_, und individuell ebenfalls,
zumindest von Alois Treindl, Liz Greene und Robert Hand, während
zumindest einigen anderen vielleicht einfach die Fähigkeit und der
Kontext fehlten, um vieles von dem zu begreifen, was ich darlege, aber
insgesamt gibt es einfach keine Erklärung, in der all diese Leute
wirklich nett und offen mir gegenüber gewesen wären, egal wie
ungeschickt meine Versuche gewesen sein mögen*. Dementsprechend habe ich
nicht das Gefühl, dass ich der Astrologie irgendetwas schulde, wenn
schon schuldet sie mir etwas. (Aber ein Sinneswandel wäre natürlich
trotzdem noch willkommen…)
*
Drehen in Kreisen… Es ist einfach so traurig, dass nichts in Gang
gekommen ist, nichts unter Astrologen zu wachsen begann. Im Jahr 2002
hatte ich eigentlich erwartet gehabt, dass mich Liz Greene und Alois
Treindl zu Astrodienst einladen würden, damit ich ihnen mein Modell der
Sternzeichen zeigen könnte, und dass es von da an abheben würde,
anfangen würde zu wachsen, sie würden anderen davon erzählen und viele
Leute würden anfangen, es zu erforschen, so dass relativ schnell auch
ausserhalb der Astrologie eine gewisse Aufmerksamkeit entstehen würde.
Aber stattdessen… siehe oben.
Irgendwann kommt der Punkt, an dem man denkt, wenn die Leute einem
einfach sagen, man solle dies oder jenes tun, jedes Mal, wenn man etwas
Arbeit investiert hat, um etwas zu präsentieren, einem sagen, man solle
noch mehr Arbeit investieren, dass man anfängt zu denken, dass sie
falsch liegen. Und wahrscheinlich tun sie das auch. Etwas zusätzliche
Arbeit könnte tatsächlich noch sinnvoll sein. Aber angesichts der Ängste
und des Unbehagens, das mein Material unbewusst in den Menschen zu
wecken scheint, ist weniger mehr. Also, wieder zurück zu vielleicht
eines Tages einige meiner Beiträge zu sammeln, oder vielleicht nicht,
und vielleicht doch noch ein oder zwei Bücher im Zusammenhang mit
Astrologie, aber vielleicht eher nicht, und eher ein oder zwei andere
Dinge, aber vielleicht kaum mehr als das. Oder vielleicht etwas anderes…
Viele der Dinge, die ich im Laufe der Jahre getan habe, sind
wunderschön. Ich will nicht berühmt werden, ich hätte nur gerne gesehen,
wie einige der Dinge, die ich gefunden habe, wachsen. Vielleicht ist
letzteres zu viel erhofft, vielleicht ist es am besten, sich einfach an
ersterem zu erfreuen, an den Dingen, wie sie sind, anstatt an dem, was
die Leute heute in ihnen sehen.
*
Hey, heute, am 29. Januar 2022, schrieb jemand im Forum, Phoebe, dass
sie versucht, mit meinem “Atomaren Modell des Tierkreises
voranzukommen”, aber auch “mehr Zeit zum Aufnehmen und Verdauen”
braucht, was ein positiverer Feedback ist als vielleicht jemals zuvor in
Bezug auf das Modell. (Stand Ende Juli habe ich seither nichts mehr
gehört, unwahrscheinlich, dass sich da etwas entwickelt hat, wie so
oft.)
Vielleicht braucht es nur etwas mehr Vertrauen, dass sich die Dinge
schon zum Guten wenden werden, und ein bisschen mehr Geduld. Liz Greene
sagte mir bei der kurzen und einzigen Begegnung mit mir im Jahr 1998:
“Du hast Zeit.” (bzw. auf Englisch “You have time.”), kurz nach einem
Vortrag von ihr über Saturn, bei dem ich ihr in einer Pause mein
Horoskop zur Deutung gegeben hatte. Mein Saturn steht am Ende der
Fische, dazu noch rückläufig, und eher langsam. Vielleicht ist einfach
mein Mond in Widder im 10. Haus und noch am MC (5° darüber hinaus) zu
ungeduldig; deswegen nicht immer frustriert zu sein, wäre gesünder, auch
für meine Verdauung, vielleicht.
Oder dies könnte wieder etwas sein, das praktisch nirgendwo hinführt,
nur eine weitere Illusion, mit einem Trigon zwischen Neptun und meinem
n.Mondknoten derzeit (und auch noch zu meinem Geburtsneptun in der
Nähe). Andererseits ist Neptun wahrscheinlich auch ein wichtiger Planet
in Bezug auf öffentliche Wellen, Hollywood, also vielleicht…
*
Venus, die wohl auch viel mit Hollywood zu tun hat, ist gerade dabei,
wieder vorwärts zu gehen, nachdem sie seit dem 19. Dezember 2021
rückläufig war, was übrigens auch ziemlich genau der Zeitraum ist, in
dem ich den “noindex”-Teil von exactphilosophy.net erstellt hatte, mit
alten Webseiten, Discovery Dokumenten, all meinen Usenet-Posts und Posts
zum I Ging, sowie (früheren Versionen) dieses Textes, noch ohne
astro.com Forenbeiträge, zumindest noch nicht für diese
Venus-Rückläufigkeitsphase.
Fühlt sich wie ein guter Moment an in den letzten Wochen bis heute,
erinnert auch an die zweite Aufgabe der Psyche (“Venus/Fische”), Wasser,
Geduld, Warten auf den richtigen Moment. Und auch wieder würde das
vielleicht gut passen zu Saturn bei seiner nächsten Rückkehr für mich am
14. Mai 2025 im 10. Haus zusammen mit Ceres (“sanftes Wachstum”) in der
Nähe, plus auch n.Mondknoten, sowie, schon im frühen Widder Neptun
(“Hollywood”). Ich hoffe einfach, dass sich die Dinge in der Welt gut
entwickeln werden; wenn sie zu wachsen beginnen, dass sie sanft wachsen
und mehr Gutes als Schlechtes schaffen, sowohl anfangs als auch in der
mittel- und langfristigen Zukunft.
(Wieder im Rückblick von Juni 2022, wird eher die dritte Rückkehr für
eine längere Zeit von Bedeutung sein, aber wer weiss, was sich
vielleicht auch kurzfristig ändern könnte, wenn ich dann vielleicht das
Buch ELEMENTAL herausbringen würde, würde man sehen…)
Ich habe gerade gelesen, dass die Tochter Nala der berühmten
deutschsprachigen Sängerin Helene Fischer zwei Monate zu früh geboren
wurde (aber jetzt völlig gesund und wohlauf ist), am 18. Dezember 2021,
also kurz bevor Venus rückläufig wurde (nur 1° vor Pluto), und dies
wurde heute in den Medien angekündigt, wo Venus wieder direktläufig
wird.
Nun, einen Tag später, mit Venus wieder direkt, sind die Hoffnungen,
dass irgendetwas von mir in der Astrologie “landet”, wieder einmal ein
Wunschtraum gewesen; denn so wie es aussieht, gehen die Astrologen
wieder ihrem “Tagesgeschäft” nach und machen einfach nur, wozu sie
gerade Lust haben.
Vielleicht werde ich einfach “wie oben, so unten; wie unten, so oben”
machen? Künftig nur noch etwas sagen, wenn konkretes Interesse an meinen
Beiträgen besteht, und ansonsten die Dinge weitgehend ruhen lassen? Oder
vielleicht einfach etwas anderes machen, oder mehr vom Gleichen? Que
sera, sera… Ich bin nur sehr traurig über diesen Ausgang nach fast 20
Jahren, vielleicht einfach zum Spass posten und das Schicksal der “Welt”
ignorieren? Vielleicht einfach das tun, was Odysseus in Kafkas Parabel
“Das Schweigen der Sirenen” tat und einmal mehr dem dort gegebenen
“Anhang” vertrauen?
* Es wird übrigens noch ein Anhang hierzu überliefert. Odysseus, sagt man,
* war so listenreich, war ein solcher [safran]Fuchs[/safran], dass selbst
* die Schicksalsgöttin nicht in sein Innerstes dringen konnte. Vielleicht
* hat er, obwohl das mit Menschenverstand nicht mehr zu begreifen ist,
* wirklich gemerkt, dass die Sirenen schwiegen, und hat ihnen und den
* Göttern den obigen Scheinvorgang nur gewissermassen als Schild
* entgegengehalten.
Adliswil, 8. Februar 2022 um etwa 12:40 mittags
[Horoskopgraphik]
(sieht sogar ein bisschen wie ein Schild aus…)
August 2022: Ein sabisches Orakel diesen Frühling war ein alter
Seekapitän, der schaukelt (13° Löwe), was auch an Odysseus’ Wahl+Los am
Ende von Platons _Staat_ erinnert, und vielleicht, nur vielleicht, werde
ich euch noch ein paar Geschichten erzählen über einige der ‘Inseln’,
dich ich auf meinen virtuellen Reisen entdeckt habe…
To be fair, all I ever wanted is to be with her, just have her around me
in everyday life, live together, found a family, the usual, this is why
I tried astrology, because she had made a presentation about astrology
in school, the rest was not so important, including this here.
* Epilog (März 2023): Rund um die Schliessung des Forums auf astro.com,
wurde mir durch näheren Kontakt klar, dass die Verfechter aus der
Generation mit Pluto in Löwe wirklich grosse Defizite hätten, was die
Wahrnehmung angeht, eine Art Unfähigkeit, Dinge ausserhalb des eigenen
Raubtierfokus zu wahrzunehmen. Es erschien mir nur fair, dies für einmal
relativ direkt hervorzuheben. Und doch ist es am Ende fast unendlich
traurig, auch da diejenigen, die es weiterführen, jünger sind.
* Dezember 2023: Am Ende waren und sind doch sie primär verantwortlich,
nicht ich.
--
PS: “andere Bäume anbellen” :)
https://www.artecat.ch/raum-zeit-elemente.html
Die deutsche Version von exactphilosophy.net ist am Entstehen,
wie an dem Mittag als Sedna in die Zwillinge lief gewünscht oder
einfach "erschienen", und auch unter den 'artemis' Artikeln mal
ein Stub für "Space Time Elements" bzw. "Raum Zeit Elemente"
under dem Untertitel "easy", und vielleicht landet das ja sogar
auch noch dort, wo es an dem Mittag "erschien", ich komme mir
jedenfalls eher als Beobachter in der Sache vor wie wenn ich was
zu sagen hätte was entsteht, und unklar ob das vielleicht einfach
nur mein bewusstes Selbst wäre, das da unbeteiligt ist, oder ob
es doch (was mir insgesamt also doch noch etwas wahrscheinlicher
erscheint) eher im kollektive Wünsche, Absichten und Pläne ginge.
Aber so Dinge sind irgendwann unlösbar. "Was die Leute meistens
vergessen wenn sie über das Unbewusste sprechen, ist dass es
unbewusst ist." In dem Sinn, ob jetzt was in mir wäre, das mir
unbewusst ist oder etwas "Grösseres", das mir als kleinem
Menschen prinzipiell so unzugänglich ist wie Quantentheorie für
ein durchschnittliche Ameise, wer weiss... Selbst dabei was eine
Ameise so könnte wäre ja fundamental/philosophisch so gar keine
Gewissheit...
Nochmal zu Russland...
Es scheint mal von weitem gesehen so zu sein, dass Kommunikation,
insb. zwischen Lukaschenko und Prigoschin da was bewirkt hätte,
gewisse Sturheiten überwunden hätte. Eine echte Revolution in
Russland würde mich überraschen, scheint mit dort eher so zu sein,
dass bei jedem Uranus-Zyklus von ca. 84 Jahren dort eine gewisse
Phase des "Chaos" kommt und daraus dann wieder ein Kristall sich
bildet, und die Zeit den ganz zu verändern wäre noch die nächsten
50 Jahre oder so noch nicht gekommen. Das soll aber nicht heissen,
dass die Person Putin da bleibt, allerdings ist seine aktuell
wirkende Marsrückkehr, die eben (mit allerdings unbestätigten
Geburtsdaten) schon zu den Extremen gegenüber der Ukraine passen
würden, schon eben wohl insgesamt wie man es auch dreht und wendet
eher nicht so ideal für Russland als Ganzes, allerdings geht das
Marsar noch bis am 31.12.2023, danach wäre das vielleicht wiederum
nicht derart ein Problem insgesamt für Russland. Aber, wer weiss,
auch wenn die prominenten russischen Personen in den momentanen
Schach-Rochaden kaum "5D-Schach" zu spielen scheinen, könnte das
Mütterchen Russland oder auch die ganze Welt durchaus tun.
Aber egal, hilft jetzt den Menschen in der Ukraine, die lediglich
in Ruhe und nicht in einem absolutischen Kristall leben möchten
nicht. Es ist nämlich falsch zu behaupten, dass in der Ukraine
es ein Krieg von Russland gegen die NATO wäre, denn die Ukrainer
sind allem Anschein nach sehr überwiegend gegen derartige
Einflussnahme vom Seiten Russland, und würden Waffen auch durchaus
von jedem nehmen, der ihnen dabei hilft. Das soll jetzt nicht
heissen, dass die Ängste Russlands vor mehr westlichem Einfluss
auch via Ukraine unbegründet wären, nur ist es so, dass die Art
wie Russland operiert heutzutage nicht mehr konkurrenzfähig zu
sein schein, wohingegen die Ukrainer da einen besseren Weg
gefunden haben, der durchaus auch für Russland ein Vorbild sein
könnte. Aber das sollen die dort alle für sich ausbeineln...
Ich bin bei Apuleius im Moment ein paar andere Texte am Lesen (bzw.
teilweise erst bestellt) als dem berühmten "Der Goldene Esel", der
eigentlich original "Metamorphoseon Libri XI" geheissen hätte und
erst später von einem Kaiser oder so den Spitznamen bekam.
Auslöser ist sicher, dass seine Beschreibung der Aufgaben der Psyche
recht deutlich die Wandlungen der vier Elemente Feuer, Luft, Wasser
und Erde zu spiegeln scheint in der Art, wie ich sie auch in den
12 Tierkreiszeichen zu erkennen glaube... Plus, dass sich Apuleius
allem Anschein nach gemäss seinen anderen Büchern sehr für die
Philosophie Platons interessiert hätte. Siehe dazu z.B. Wikipedia:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuleius#Werke
Nun bin ich in "Platon und seine Lehre" auf etwas gestossen, dass
wohl einen eigenen Artikel auf exactphilosophy.net wert sein könnte.
Ich zitiere daraus mal aus Buch I, Abschnitt 14, verkürzt:
14. Die Sinne [Übertitel vom Übersetzer]
[...] die beiden klaren wie durch ein Leuchten des Sehens erleuchteten
Augenpupillen [...] Licht erkennen. Das Gehör [...] nehme vermittels
der [...] Luft Geräusche auf. Die Geschmackssinne seien flüssiger und
daher daher dem [...] Wässrigen besser angepasst. Der Tastsinn aber,
der erdverwandt und körperlich sei [...]. Für die Dinge, welche
verderben und sich verändern, gibt [...] die Nase [...]
Quelle: Apuleius, "Platon und seine Lehre", Herausgegeben und
kommentiert von Paolo Siniscalco, eingeleitet und übersetzt von
Karl Albert, Verlag Hans Richarz - Sankt Augustin, 1981.
Es gibt fünf Sinne und 4+1 klassische Elemente, bei Platon ja auch
den 5 platonischen Körpern zugeordnet. Bei Platon im Timaios war mir
zumindest nicht klar was Apuleius oben schreibt, auch wenn er soweit
ich sehe im Wesentlichen Teile aus dem Timaios zitiert:
Sehen - Feuer
Hören - Luft
Schmecken - Wasser
Tasten - Erde
Riechen - Wandlungen der vier Elemente, 5. Element
Das spiegelt bei mir sofort einiges, da ich auf exactphilosophy.net
Elemente aus unmittelbarer Erfahrung von Raum und Zeit (durch die
Sinne) spreche, und dabei ein 5. Element "e5" schlicht als Wandlung
der anderen 4 Elemente *definiert* hatte, obwohl es dafür ausser
eher indirekt symbolisch keine antiken Wurzeln dafür gegeben hätte.
Und dass Apuleius nun das bei Platon extrahiert hätte, wäre schon
sehr besonders, auch das es in "Der Goldene Esel" eben auch um
Metamorphosen ging (also 5. Element in dem Sinn), von Lucius und
auch bei Psyche...
Übrigens hatte ich in "A few new discoveries in physics" von 2002,
siehe exactphilosophy.net, die Sinne so zugeordnet gehabt:
(1) Sehen - Feuer
(2) Hören - 2 Ohren - Luft
(3) Schmecken+Riechen - 1 Zunge + 2 Nasenlöcher - Wasser
(4) Tasten - 2 Hände + 2 Füsse - Erde
Auch von dem her bin ich nebenbei noch happy, dass das auch von
mir her recht ähnlich ist, und nicht ganz neuartig...
Da rum gibt es fast sicher noch etwas zu entdecken/erforschen,
ich habe auch mal den "Didaskaliokos" bestellt, der etwa auch in
der Zeit entstand wie Apuleius lebte, und der wohl auch das von
den Sinnen so beschrieben hätte, bzw. wie genau sähe ich erst
wenn ich den Text vor mir sähe...
Momentan habe ich schon stark den Eindrick, dass Apuleius, wer
oder was das genau war, schon echt genial war. Hätte er einfach
seine Sicht der Dinge nur einfach dadurch durchscheinen lassen,
indem er Platon geschickt zusammengesetzt zitieren würde, und
auch nur andeuten statt explizit behaupten würde?
Das wäre schon sehr besonders, aber ja, könnte durchaus sein... ;)
: Da rum gibt es fast sicher noch etwas zu entdecken/erforschen,
: ich habe auch mal den "Didaskaliokos" bestellt, der etwa auch in
: der Zeit entstand wie Apuleius lebte, und der wohl auch das von
: den Sinnen so beschrieben hätte, bzw. wie genau sähe ich erst
: wenn ich den Text vor mir sähe...
:
: Momentan habe ich schon stark den Eindrick, dass Apuleius, wer
: oder was das genau war, schon echt genial war. Hätte er einfach
: seine Sicht der Dinge nur einfach dadurch durchscheinen lassen,
: indem er Platon geschickt zusammengesetzt zitieren würde, und
: auch nur andeuten statt explizit behaupten würde?
:
: Das wäre schon sehr besonders, aber ja, könnte durchaus sein... ;)
Ich habe ja schon den "Didaskaliokos" als Teil von George Burges'
"The Works of Plato", und dort sieht es (siehe 18+19) viel mehr
nach Platon im Timaios aus, also dass Apuleius tatsächlich hier
alleine den, ich sage mal, überlegen Durchblick gehabt hätte...
Dann weiter Spurensuche zu Apuleius und Elementen...
Sieht tatsächlich sehr danach aus, dass Platon keine solche
Assoziation der Sinne mit den Elementen gemacht hätte, kann
ich jedenfalls mit bestem Willen nicht aus dem "Timaios"
herauslesen...
Daher habe ich das mal wie folgt beschrieben auf meiner Website
unter den "leads" bei https://www.exactphilosophy.net/greek.html,
hier mal (soweit noch) noch exklusiv auf deutsch übersetzt:
: Apuleius in "Platon und seine Lehre" im 2. Jahrhundert n.Chr.:
:
: “In erster Linie sind die beiden Pupillen der Augen sehr klar,
: und da sie mit einem bestimmten Licht des Sehens leuchten,
: haben sie die Aufgabe, Licht zu erkennen; während das Gehör,
: da es an der Natur der Luft teilhat, eine Wahrnehmung von
: Tönen durch Boten in der Luft hat; während der Geschmack,
: da er ein entspannterer Sinn ist, aus diesem Grund für Dinge
: geeignet ist, die eher feucht und wässrig sind; aber der Tastsinn,
: da er von der Erde und körperlich ist, nimmt Dinge wahr, die
: eher fest sind und die angefasst und angeschlagen werden
: können. Auch von den Dingen, die sich verändern, wenn sie
: verdorben sind, gibt es eine eigene Wahrnehmung. Denn in
: der Mitte der Gesichtsregion hat die Natur die Nasenlöcher
: angebracht, durch deren doppelten Eingang ein Geruch
: zusammen mit dem Atem strömt; und dass Umwandlungen und
: Veränderungen die Ursachen des Geruchs sind, und dass sie
: von Substanzen wahrgenommen werden, wenn sie verdorben
: oder verbrannt oder in einem schleimigen oder befeuchteten
: Zustand sind; […].” (Buch I, 14, übersetzt auf englisch von
: G. Burges)
:
: Obwohl das meiste, was er schreibt, aus Platons "Timaios"
: stammt, scheint es, dass eine Sichtweise von Sehen-Feuer,
: Hören-Luft, Schmecken-Wasser, Tasten-Erde etwas ist, das
: Apuleius implizit hinzugefügt hat. Mehr noch die implizite
: Assoziation von Verwandlungen der Elemente mit dem
: Geruch und implizit dem 5. Element, womit sich bereits die
: Definition von e5 hier widerspiegelt…
Hier noch ein Link direkt auf die Seite mit der englischen
Übersetzung vom obigen Ausschnitt, im Internet Archiv
https://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.2695/page/n343/mode/2up
George Burges, The Works Of Plato - Vol.6 (1854)
Book I, 14
In der Astro-Databank findet sich ein Horoskop für den Zeitpunkt der
Implosion, soweit der gesichtert ist:
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Accident:_2023_Titan_submersible_incident
Zeit: 18 Juni 2023 um 13:45 UTC
Ort: (Titanic) 41n44 49w57
Quelle der Zeit sind verschiedene Medienberichte, die besagen, dass
zu dem Zeitpunkt der Kontakt mit dem "U-Boot" abbrach, 1h45m nach
Beginn des Tauchgangs. Nun ist aber nicht 100% klar, was gemeint war.
Hier was in den FAQ des Betreibers Ende Mai stand:
: Can the submersible communicate with the crew on the surface?
:
: Yes. Titan communicates with the topside comms and tracking team
: via text messages which are exchanged via a USBL (ultra-short
: baseline) acoustic system. The sub is required to communicate with
: topside every fifteen minutes or more frequently if needed.
: Tracking of the sub’s position (lat/long and depth) is achieved
: through the same system but is controlled by the computer and
: updates the sub’s position every few seconds.
https://web.archive.org/web/20230530031817/https://oceangateexpeditions.com/about-us/faqs/
Auf deutsch (deepl.com verfeinert):
: Kann das Tauchfahrzeug mit der Crew an der Oberfläche
: kommunizieren?
:
: Ja. Titan kommuniziert mit dem Oberflächenteam über Textnach-
: richten, die über ein akustisches USBL-System (Ultra Short
: Baseline) ausgetauscht werden. Das U-Boot muss alle fünfzehn
: Minuten oder bei Bedarf auch häufiger mit der Oberfläche
: kommunizieren. Die Verfolgung der U-Boot-Position (Länge/
: Breite und Tiefe) erfolgt über dasselbe System, wird aber vom
: Computer gesteuert und aktualisiert die Position des U-Boots
: alle paar Sekunden.
1h45m ist ja ein Vielfaches von 15 min, also wäre ev. mit dem
Abbruch gemeint, dass um 13:45 die letzte Textnachricht noch
ankam oder gerade die schon nicht mehr? Oder eben genauer, dass
nach 1h45m die automatisierten Positionsmeldungen abbrachen?
Und war der Start exakt um 12:00 UTC, also 1h45m danach dann
exakt um 13:45? Soweit nicht klar, die US Navy, die die
Implosion detektiert hatte, könnte da grundsätlich Klarheit
schaffen, aber ob/wann das geschieht ist völlig offen...
Also soweit scheint 13:45 UTC die Zeit der Wahl zu sein, wäre wenn
nicht genau dann wohl ca. +/- 15 min da herum passiert.
Nun zur Astrologie...
Um 13:45 wäre der AC auf 8°42' Jungfrau gewesen, und damit der
rückläufige Saturn auf 7°13' Fischen gerade kurz zuvor unter den
Horizont gerutscht, was schon passen könnte zu einem Problem mit
materieller Stabilität, gerade unter Wasser.
AC-Herrscher Merkur wäre da im 10. Haus auf 12°36' Zwillingen gewesen,
noch einigermassen am MC auf 4°48' Zwillingen. Und damit wäre der
Merkur natürlich auch Herrscher vom MC.
Sedna war 3 Tage vor dem Unglück erstmals in die Zwillinge eingetreten,
und in ihrer Mythologie lebt sie ja tief unten im Meer und ab und zu
kommt ein Taucher zu ihr runter und kämmt dort ihr Haar, da sie selbst
keine Finger mehr hat um das selbst zu tun...
Bei Zwillingen bzw. Merkur denke ich oft auch an "hermetisch", bzw. an
das alte Experiment wo erstmals die immense Kraft nur schon des Luft-
drucks auf der Erde demonstriert wurde indem eine Metallkugel aus zwei
Hälften ausgepumpt wurde und dann starke Pferde nicht mehr imstande
waren, die zwei Hälften auseinanderzuziehen.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdeburger_Halbkugeln
Das würde also schon auf Anhieb symbolisch einen gewissen Bezug zu
Sedna nun in den Zwillingen haben. Auch, dass die Expedition ja etwas
für reiche Menschen war, eine Reise kostete ganze 250'000 US$, was
man z.B. als nicht mehr im Stier (Venus/Geld) sehen könnte, oder auch
dass Sedna sowieso mit Venus/Geld zu tun hätte.
Oder aber Pluto (Reichtümer unter der Erde / Macht) im Trigon zu Sedna..
Saturn hat praktisch keinen harten Aspekte, ausser eben zu Sedna (wenn
auch nicht sehr exakt), und typ. würde man sowas erwarten wenn Saturn
dem Druck nachgeben würde.
Allerdings hat es in der Geschichte auch das generelle Motiv der Hybris
wie bei der Titatic damals, von einem technologischen / Wassermann
Übermut, im Fall des "U-Bootes" "Titan" da es aus einem Mix aus Titan
und Karbobfibern bestand, wozu James Cameron (der sehr oft zur Titanic
runtergetaucht war) recht klare Worte fand.
Der Neumond Ende Zwillinge, bzw. mit dem Mond bei der Implosion bereits
im Krebs, könnte sicher noch aufschlussreich sein, wie wohl noch einiges
anderes mehr, wie fast immer.
Mir ist nur die unmittelbare Verwandschaft mit dem Sedna Mythos
aufgefallen, und Sedna wäre in meinem Modell wie Uranus, Neptun, Pluto
(und andere) im Wesentlichen alles "Boten des Wassermannzeitalters",
ob durch die Vorstellung der Menschen oder allgemeiner noch offen...
Und natürlich schon auch tragisch solche Ereignisse, vielleicht eben
gerade auch weil die Natur in dem Fall stärker war als der Mensch...
: Saturn hat praktisch keinen harten Aspekte, ausser eben zu Sedna (wenn
: auch nicht sehr exakt), und typ. würde man sowas erwarten wenn Saturn
: dem Druck nachgeben würde.
Etwa 7° zu Sedna, aber noch etwas genauer (ca. 5.5°) zum Merkur.
(Und zum MC ca. 2.5°).
Noch ein paar zerquetschte Gedanken...
Es hat ein fast exaktes Sextil von Jupiter zu Saturn (ca. 12'),
was ich noch eher schwierig zu interpretieren finde. Ist das
jetzt positiv, eine gute Gelegenheit (Sextil, Jupiter), oder
eben dann zu leichtfertig für den Saturn? Irgendwie so?
Es hat auch ein recht genaues Quadrat von der Sonne zum Neptun
(ca. 33'), was sicher zu sowas im Wasser passen könnte.
Erinnert mich auch an einen Artikel von Charles Harvey, zu den
Aspekten von Sonne und Neptun, wo er unterscheidet ob die sich
entfernen (wie bei der Implosion der Fall) oder zusammenkommen,
da die Sonne sich schneller bewegt wie der Neptun, und wo die
Sonne grob für das Indivuelle stünde und der Neptun für das
Kollektive, und ich würde sagen ev. auch für bewusst/unbewusst.
Sn ein Beispiel mit der Sonne im Quadrat vor dem Neptun erinnere
ich mich noch, C.G. Jung, den ich noch recht stark mit "Tiefen-
psychologie" identifiziert hätte, wobei er das anscheinend nicht
erfunden zu haben scheint, also... Hier ist der Artikel, jetzt
nicht wieder gelesen:
Sun & Neptune through the Aspect Cycle - Charles Harvey
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/sun_nep.html
Zu Jung steht das:
: The great Swiss psychologist C.G. Jung epitomises this struggle
: between individual and collective. He describes for us in his
: autobiographical work "Memories, Dreams and Reflections" how his
: work grew out of his own personal struggle with the Collective
: and with the threat of being swamped, in effect with his own
: potential psychosis and breakdown. In a sense we could take the
: description by Jung of the process of individuation as a
: description of the challenge of the Sun-Neptune outgoing square.
Auf deutsch (deepl.com):
: Der große Schweizer Psychologe C.G. Jung verkörpert diesen Kampf
: zwischen Individuum und Kollektiv. In seinem autobiographischen
: Werk "Erinnerungen, Träume und Reflexionen" beschreibt er, wie
: seine Arbeit aus seinem persönlichen Kampf mit dem Kollektiv und
: mit der Bedrohung durch das Kollektiv, d.h. mit seiner eigenen
: potentiellen Psychose und seinem Zusammenbruch, entstand. In
: gewissem Sinne könnten wir die Beschreibung des Individuations-
: prozesses durch Jung als eine Beschreibung der Herausforderung
: durch das ausgehende Sonne-Neptun-Quadrat verstehen.
Aber noch etwas anderes... Das Horoskop der Implosion ist auch sehr
"mondlastig". Da ist der Neumond im Quadrat zum Neptun, wobei zwischen
Sonne und Mond noch der Asteroid 105 Artemis ist (also die griechische
Jagd-/Mondgöttin), und der Asteroid 78 Diana (die römische) ist fast
exakt am MC für die nominelle Zeit, nämlich nur etwa 6' hinter dem MC
noch knapp im 9. Haus.
Und gäbe sicher noch anderes, wie schon angetönt, z.B. ob Juno mit bei
dem Neumond und Artemis bedeutsam war, nur schon weil die Hera in der
griechischen Mythologie extrem stur sein konnte, und sich Spannungen,
die krass wären eher gar nicht oder dann sehr intensiv entladen könnten,
und irgendwie sehe ich sie eben auch bei Zwillingen und Krebs rum von
der Symbolik her. (Hera ist die Frau von Zeus, Juno von Jupiter, also
das römische äquivalent zum griechischen Obergötter-Ehepaar.)
)o+
On Saturday, July 1, 2023 at 3:10:05 PM UTC+2, xphi. wrote:
: Die deutsche Version von exactphilosophy.net ist am Entstehen,
Ist jetzt publiziert, seit heute 20:32 MESZ (UTC+2), nahe Zürich.
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/index-de.html
War schon noch einiges an Arbeit, aber machte auch sehr viel Freude...
(Die Artikel unter "artemis" sind unverändert teilweise wie vorher
schon auch auf Deutsch vorhanden, das oben bezieht sich auf rein
auf den Hauptteil der Website, aber auch das sind in einem Taschen-
buch mittlerweile etwas 85 Seiten auf englisch, und wären wohl an
die 100 auf deutsch...)
Und fühlt sich schon irgendwie nach "Sedna" an, dass es dann
einfach so floss, sich realisierte, irgendwie gar nicht vermeidbar.
Und der Mond bei Publikation war auf 29°32' Fische, also nur ganz
wenig vor meinem Geburtssaturn (29°06' Fische), und auch nahe von
der Sonne der Registration von exactphilosophy.net, 29°15' Fische.
Irgendwie scheint es das für den Moment gewesen zu sein wohl, nun
auch wieder unmittelbar praktischere Dinge im Fokus, aber einfach
mal schauen was so kommt...
Und schaut vorbei auf der Website, ich kann gar nicht übertreiben
mit der Bedeutung, die sie mal haben könnte, aber ist wohl im
Kern nicht mein "Problem", ich bin hier nur der Schmutzli, der
dann mal was macht, wenn es den Schicksalsgöttinnen danach ist.
Oder so irgendwie...
Nein, das ist keine Werbung für den Artikel. Es geht mehr darum, dass ich nicht
so ganz verstehe wieso ich ihn geschrieben habe, bzw. genauer wieso er in der
Form wie er jetzt ist wohl so bleiben muss nach Gefühl, obwohl bewusst gedacht
noch vieles fraglich wäre. Und hat soweit auch sichtbar keine Astrologie drin,
wobei im Hintergrund mind. bei der Kernaussage in kursiv schon etwas da war,
aber im Gesamtkontext sicher nicht astrologisch darauf geschaut...
Ist jedenfalls über etwas, das 2022 global sehr prominent in den News war für
mehrere Wochen. Und wo ich zuvor kaum was wusste, sicher weniger wie viele
andere Leute. Astrologisch hatte ich am Ende vermutet, es hätte am ehesten
mit meinem 12. Haus zu tun, wo wie jedes Jahr die Sonne um die Zeit durch-
läuft, so grob solange sie im Sternzeichen Krebs ist.
Nein, diesmal verstehe ich es weniger als sonst üblich... Vielleicht würde es
sich ja auch noch auflösen wenn bei einer der beteiligten Personen mal die
Geburtszeit bekannt würde... Hm, vielleicht ja mal frühe Zwillinge (wegen
Sedna) auf eine der Achsen legen, AC oder MC? Wäre eine Versuch wert....
Stay tuned... Hollywood-style Cliffhanger...? To be continued...?
Sedna wird grob am 15. September rückläufig (auf 0°32' Zwillingen),
wandert dann rückwärts ca. am 23. November wieder zurück in den
Stier, zum letzten Mal in vielen tausend Jahren, wird ca. um den
2. Januar 2024 wieder direkt (auf 29°37' Stier) und wandert dann
grob am 28. April 2024 wieder in die Zwillinge, um dort zu bleiben
bis etwa 2067, also ganz grob 43 Jahre, was für Sedna immer noch
eine relativ grosse Verweilzeit ist bei einer Umlaufzeit von über
11'000 Jahren...
Ist es in der Welt tatsächlich schon ein wenig mehr einer Spaltung
in zwei Blöcke, nicht zuletzt um Handel ("Merkur") herum? Schwer
sicher zu sagen, was genau läuft, da ja in so einem Fall auch die
hiesigen Medien kaum ausgeglichen berichten würden. Also ob BRICS
zu einem echten Gegenpol wird oder nicht...
Und könnte doch wieder sein, dass doch noch vieles in den USA sich
entscheiden würde... Wird Biden noch fit genug sein, um noch einmal
zu kandidieren? Kürzliche Ereignisse in Indien stimmen da nicht
besonders zuversichtlich, und ob die Demokraten einen Kandidaten
aus dem Hut zaubern könnten, der gegen Trump gewinnt?
Bei Putin (ADB DD) stünde bei Jahreende die nächste Marsrückkehr
an, welche dann - vermute ich - die Dynamik in der Ukraine ändern
könnte, da die vorherige nahe an dem riesigen Vulkanausbruch in
der Nähe von Tonga stattfand. Es kam dazu kürzlich eine Doku auf
Arte. Es scheint, dass die Bewohner von Tonga da unmittelbar recht
viel Glück im Unglück hatten oder gut vorbereitet waren; 3 Toten
trotz mehreren aufeinanderfolgenden Tsunamis nach dem Ausbruch,
davon einer mit einer Höhe von 18 Metern...
Auf der Astrodatabank hat es folgende Daten für den Ausbruch:
Name: Nature: 2022 Hunga Tonga eruption and tsunami
born: on 15 January 2022 at 17:15 (= 5:15 PM )
Place: Hunga Tonga, Tonga, 20s3210, 175w2255
Timezone: +13 h13e (is standard time)
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nature:_2022_Hunga_Tonga_eruption_and_tsunami
Das war auch die Zeit, die in der Doku erwähnt wurde (ohne Zone),
ich nehme die mal ohne genauer hinzuschauen (was könnte denn da
schon schiefgehen, mit Merkur noch rückläufig... ;) )
Was bei dem Ausbruch ins Auge fiel, war die dreifache Konjunktion
von n.Mondknoten, Ceres und Sedna. Die Symbolik gerade von Ceres
mit u.A. der Schlangeninsel und Getreide war, fand ich, oft danach
recht deutlich, und die runde Explosion von oben gesehen erinnerte
an ein Mühlrad und damit an die Mühle, die am Meeresgrund das Salz
mahlt gemäss einem Märchen. Und im 11. Haus, also wohl schon so,
dass es viele betrifft und Dinge in Bewegung bringt.
Jedenfalls würde ich vermuten, dass in der ganzen Sache so viel
Energie war, die frei wurde, dass die analoge Position beim Marsar
von Putin analog viel Marsenergie freisetzte für den Krieg, und
damit auch, dass sich das Ende 2023 fast nur beruhigen könnte,
aber dazu müsste sich wohl auch jemand bemühen, sich das nächste
Marsar anzuschauen...
Also...
Im Marsar vom 19. Januar 2022 war der Mars - nahe dem galaktischen
Zentrum - auf 26°31' Schütze im 4. Haus gewesen. Sedna, Ceres und
n. Mondknoten weiterhin um Ende Stier herum und für Moskau praktisch
exakt am MC, auch sie waren natürlich im Trigon zum Pluto dort, sowie
der Sonne...
Daten für das Marsar (astro-seek.com):
Date of Birth (local time): 19 January 2022 - 20:29 (MSK)
Universal Time (UT/GMT): 19 January 2022 - 17:29
Local Sidereal Time (LST): 03:55:48
House system: Placidus system
Latitude, Longitude: 55°45'N, 37°37'E
City: Moscow
Nun, das nächste Marsar, ebenfalls für Moskau:
Date of Birth (local time): 31 December 2023 - 01:28 (MSK)
Universal Time (UT/GMT): 30 December 2023 - 22:28
Local Sidereal Time (LST):07:34:52
House system: Placidus system
Latitude, Longitude: 55°45'N, 37°37'E
City: Moscow
Da ist der Mars im 3. Haus, welches ja auch für Kommunikation
steht. Nur, wie Selenski kürzlich richtig bemerkte, nachdem ein
Flugzeug plötzlich auseinanderbrach, ein Deal mit Putin scheint
nun mal nicht wirklich möglich, mit Russland ggf. schon, aber
nicht mit dem Boss. Ausser, und da käme die USA wieder ins Spiel
mit seinem "alten Kumpel" Trump...
By the way: Wäre schon irgendwie "Ironie des Schicksals", wenn
Trumps Ex-Frau Ivana, die in der Jugend Skirennen fuhr und laut
Wikipedia ein Diplom in Sportwissenschaften erwarb, einfach so
eines Abends die Treppe hinunterfallen würde, so unglücklich,
dass sie daran sterben würde... Ausser natürlich an dem anonym
erschienenen Buch "The Kingfisher Secret" wäre ja doch noch was
Wahres dran gewesen, mehr als eine Glosse um ein uraltes Gerücht?
Ganz generell hat Demokratie wegen der Globalisierung viel an
Wichtigkeit verloren, da globale Ströme die Entscheide von
einzelnen Ländern locker umschiffen können... Da könnte erst
und nur eine Demokratie in globalem Umfang helfen, aber was
sinniere ich da herum...
Hm, der Kingfisher (Eisvogel) ist der Legende nach oben blau
und unten rötlich weil er mal einem Sturm in die Höhe ausweichen
musste, und so teilweise blau wie der Himmel wurde und teilweise
von der Sonne verbrannt, was an Ikarus erinnert, also Löwe Thema,
wozu auch Prag/Tschechien passen würde, wo Ivana Trump her ist,
oder auch Madeleine Albright, auch nicht so lange her verstorben...
Tja... Zu wenig Wechselwirkung hier, um wirklich auf den
kollektiven Wellen zu surfen, also bleibt daher wohl ein wenig flach..........
Aus dem "Nähkästchen der Esoterik" geplaudert...
(Hatte ich gerade im privaten Umfeld ein paar Freunden gepostet,
welche sich nicht wirklich gross mit esoterischen Dingen unmittelbar
beschäftigen, zumindest nicht mehr als die meisten Menschen, aber
doch noch recht offen sind, was sein könnte... und passt daher recht
gut hierhin, hat auch mehrere direkte Bezüge zur Astrologie.)
Noch so ein bisschen aus dem Nähkästchen, aus den letzten 20+ Jahren in
dem Umfeld:
Es hat eben mind. global gesehen in meiner Erfahrung doch eine recht
deutliche Spaltung der Welt seit der "Kopernikanischen Wende", wo sich
Astronomie und Astrologie voneinander trennten, und damit am Ende das,
was sich unmittelbar wissenschaftlich belegen liess von all dem
"esoterischen" sonst, wie Astrologie, Götter, Telepathie, Orakel, und
vieles mehr, oder auch politisch stark polarisierte Dinge wie
"Intelligent Design" wonach die Entstehung der Arten nicht nur rein
darwinistisch Zufall+Auslese wäre, was nicht zuletzt von fundamentalen
Christen propagiert wird, aber dann bei vielen Wissenschaftlern (eben
gespaltene Welt) dazu führt, dass sie kategorisch von vornherein
ausschliessen, dass bei der Entstehung von neuen Arten sowas wie eine
gezielte Absicht zu einem gewissen Grad mit dabei sein könnte.
Es gibt dann im Extrem so zwei Arten von Leuten: Die voll
"skeptisch-wissenschaftlichen", wo wenn man "Telepathie" ein Phänomen
nennt, gleich sagen, ist nicht nachgewiesen, dass es das gibt in der
Natur, daher per Definition kein Phänomen, muss gar nicht genauer
hinschauen (ausser das Buch würde unmittelbar direkt einen
naturwissenschaftlichen Beweis dafür enthalten). Das andere Extrem, was
es auch viel gibt, sind solche, die alles, was wissenschaftlich nicht
nachweisbar ist, soweit als "wahr" empfinden oder interessant, aber dann
auch darin überhaupt nicht unterscheiden, ausser das sie ihre eigenen
Favoriten oder "pet theories" dazu haben, anderen Ideen gegenüber zwar
aufgeschlossen sind, aber ohne ihnen besonderes Gewicht zu geben, im
Grunde eher auch implizit daran hängen, dass diese esoterische Welt für
sie ganz frei bleibt, um zu glauben was man möchte, und was davon primär
zu verfolgen.
Ist teilweise bei Astrologen noch recht krass. Die unmittelbare
Erfahrung, wie die Menschen um sie sind oder auch konkrete Ereignisse,
da sind sie typischerweise genau im Detail und sehr
praktisch/pragmatisch orientiert in der Anwendung und Interpretation der
Methoden, aber gleichzeitig hängen sie an der Vorstellung, die
Astrologie hätte wesentlich etwas mit den Objekten im All zu tun, dass
es eine Art Verbindung mit dem All gäbe ("wie unten so oben, wie oben so
unten"), was schlicht in dem Mass nicht der Fall sein kann, dazu haben
sich die astrologischen Methoden über die Jahrhunderte viel zu sehr von
den "Sternen im All" entfernt, aber so kann man dort dann nicht
argumentieren, kommt einfach nicht an. Und Wissenschaftler machen oft
den Fehler (fast durchgängig), dass sie sagen, Astrologie kann im Alltag
nicht funktionieren, da es die "Sterne" offensichtlich nicht spiegeln
kann (was auch stimmt, aber die Frage ist ja unmittelbar ob sich die
Aussagen der astrologische Methoden in den Leuten spiegeln, nicht ob
sich die Leute in den Sternen direkt spiegeln). Ist auch oft so, dass
Männer eher Naturwissenschaft machen, Frauen eher Astrologie, so hat
sich das eingerichtet und die Leute möchten das gar nicht ändern .... und
dann kommt so jemand wie ich ;)
Ist oft wirklich tricky, auch was man für Begriffe benutzt. Ich dachte
noch als ich das eine frühere Buch "Elementare Sternzeichen" schrieb,
dass "Sternzeichen" ein gebräuchlicher Begriff wäre einfach für Widder,
Stier, usw. bis Fische, dem ist aber nicht so unter Astrologen, weil sie
sich von Astrologie in Zeitungen distanzieren wollen, wo das
Sternzeichen das Zeichen ist in dem die Sonne bei Geburt war. Ich hätte
stattdessen wohl "Tierkreiszeichen" als Begriff nehmen müssen und mind..
auf englisch eher "elemenal" als "elementary", so erschien das wohl
vielen als Buch für Anfänger und spezifisch über das Zeichen, in dem die
Sonne bei Geburt war, also eher "Trivialastrologie". Die Astrologen
machen es sich da aber auch zu einfach: Dass Einstein als Fisch eine
Relativitätstheorie fand oder Bohr als Waage eine unauflösliche Dualität
von Materie und Welle bei subatomaren Teilchen, das spiegelt eben doch
auch sehr direkt deren Sonnenzeichen/"Sternzeichen" in der üblichen
Lesart der Sternzeichen... Klar kann man viel mehr aussagen,
insbesondere wenn die Geburtszeit von jemandem genau bekannt ist, aber
die astrogische Sonne ist halt doch auch wichtig im Leben, genug um sich
meist alleine schon zu manifestieren, aber schon kaum wenn es darum geht
wie der nächste Tag oder die nächste Woche werden, eher eben im
Lebenslauf als "Linie", und auch da sicher nicht der einzige Einfluss
wohin es geht, aber wohl doch einer von so nur ein paar starken
Faktoren.
Ist halt echt schwierig, so etwas zu vermittlen, daher auch dachte ich,
dass ein gewisser Grad an abstrakter/vernünftiger Distanz und
Reserviertheit, es ggf. zugänglicher machen könnte, aber wer weiss, und
ein bisschen was Konkretes braucht es halt dann wohl schon auch...
Oder...?
Eine Idee von "exactphilosophy" wäre eben auch, sich der Realität sanft
zu nähern, ein bisschen wie ein fliegender Teppich, der sich sanft
absenken und dabei die Topologie der Landschaft ("Realität") spiegeln
würde, aber auch nicht bierernst fundamental.
As posted at astrologyinternational.org the past few days. Not polished
to near perfection, but hopefully contains helpful impulses to what is
happening these days and what has happened during the past millenia.
31 Oct 2023 at 22:26 (CET)
The Hamas attack was 7 October 2023, about 4 days after Lilith (Mean
Black Moon Lilith) entered Virgo, i.e. close to Mars in the Balfour
Declaration (see #3) and Mars in the ADB chart for the foundation of the
state Israel (see #2), and note that fixed star Regulus (heart of the
lion) is near there, moved from Leo to Virgo roughly around 2011 (like
all fixed stars moves forward in the tropical zodiac by about 1° in 72
years, i.e. a bit less than 1 arc minute per year, and is now around
0°08' Virgo). I am not sure why, but in the years since about 2020 I
have very often seen an emphasis on early Virgo in political events and
people which got lots of global media attention, e.g. Biden's nodes, and
a lot more.
On a larger scale, to me Jewish religion seems to be a child of the Age
of Aries, even though the traditional roots back to Abraham around 1800
BCE (which is roughly when the first star of the constellation Aries
passed the spring point) can apparently not be traced scientifically.
Aries is the first sign of the zodiac, in that sense also the youngest
sign. A newborn just perceives what is done to him/her, is not able,
yet, to see him-/herself as actor (and often is not an actor as a real
newborn baby). This seems to often mirror how people in Israel view what
happens to them. They see what Palestinians, etc. do to them, but not
what they themselves are doing and have been doing. Conversely, I often
see Virgo elements in Islam - maybe similarly to Greek culture with lots
of Libra in the second half of the Age of Aries, Islam (and also the
Renaissance with its analytical approach to the world) could be a
counterbalance of Virgo in the Age of Pisces. And with that Virgo
emphasis would also come a very detailed perception of justice and
injustice, which might sometime silently accumulate over many years and
then suddenly erupt (maybe also a bit like when a longtime wife has had
enough and decides to separate from her husband).
As far as I can tell, Aries does not have the fate to learn compassion
with others much, but since the state of Israel has several planets in
Leo, that would still be a theme - see Liz Greene in "The Astrology of
Fate" in the chapter about Leo, with the Grail legend and more*. In
German there is a saying "Der Klügere gibt nach", where "klüger" is
roughly a mix between intelligent and wise, "The more intelligent/wise
person gives in". Israel is in many respects of
efficency/technology/etc. much superior to Palestine. In particular,
they should not do something that reminds of "Sippenhaft". Sippenhaft
was in the past when someone committed a crime that his (or her) family
was held guilty too (and apparently that was done in the extreme by the
Nazis against all kinds persons, see here in German at Wikipedia).
Enclosing all Palestinians in a large region in the way it is now done
is not fair and also pragmatically does a lot of harm in the medium
term.
If you are interested, I wrote some more about such themes on large
scale in the following article that I published in 2002, actually the
parts around astrological ages were written in autumn 2001, i.e. with
the Saturn-Pluto opposition of the times, not much after 9/11:
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/noindex/discoveries/discoveries-hires.pdf
* A few years ago at the Zürich Film Festival I saw a movie by an
Israeli woman where in the movie an Israeli woman and a Palestinian
woman meet on an escalator, going in opposite directions and then switch
fates, maybe mind goes to the other's body, don't remember in full
detail. After that the Isreali woman has to cross the border with the
wall every day and is searched by soldiers, and so on.
4 Nov 2023 at 10:29 (CET)
Noam Chomsky (*1928) on "Greater Israel":
Partial extract of what he said there (3 days ago):
: [...] the term greater Israel has nothing to do with the Bible, nothing
: to do with what might have happened 2000 years ago, in fact I've never
: heard that suggested until you brought it up. Greater Israel refers to
: what is happening on the ground, it's a description of what is happening
: as Israel has moved systematically to integrate parts of the West Bank
: illegally into Israel itself. That's what greater Israel means, no
: genetics, no history, no Bible. That it's illegal is not a matter of
: selecting sources it is selecting 100% of the sources; outside of the
: Israeli High Court, outside of that there's 100% agreement including the
: highest Israeli legal authorities like [???"Theodor meon"]. That it is
: illegal, no debate about that, we can put aside genetics, we can put
: aside stories about what happened 2000 years ago, we can look just at
: what is happening on the ground and it is very clear. No selectivity
: within Israel itself, There is sharp discrimination against Palestine,
: Palestinians, which should be overcome. In the West Bank there are
: totally illegal activities going on which are creating a greater Israel
: integrated within Israel, in Gaza it's a horror story. As far as
: American opinion is concerned you're totally wrong. I live with this
: constantly. The shift from admiring Israel as a wonderful Social
: Democratic state in the 70s, declining later, took a sharp step
: backwards when Israel began its murderous activities in Gaza. I saw it
: right in front of my eyes when I was giving talks on Israel Palestine, I
: used to have police protection, to protect it against Jewish violence.
: After Cast Lead [Gaza War 2008-2009] shifted radically. Israel became a
: pariah and it shifted very sharply. Has nothing to do with anti-Semitism
: in the United States which is there, but pretty marginal, much worse in
: my childhood, much worse when I went to Harvard in the 50s, very much
: worse then. That's not changed, what's changed is the activities of
: Israel. If Israelis want to blind themselves to the consequences of what
: they're doing their Choice they're going to suffer from it. [...] what
: Israel should stop do is first of all stop the savage destruction of
: Gaza, allow Gazans to live like human beings in the West Bank, put an
: end to the programs of creating a greater Israel.
Whole auto-generated transcript: https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=Mtcj9oTxgzA
Noam Chomsky in the ADB (RR A):
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chomsky,_Noam
Neptune in early Virgo, where (Mean Black Moon) Lilith was at the Hamas'
horror attack.
And Saturn in 1 at the AC; I will come to Saturn shortly...
Yesterday evening I looked at the chart for the moment and was
astonished to see a "Star of David", maybe not quite perfect because not
a grand sextile, but the trines of the star were all there (used 10°
orbs).
And Saturn near the MC...
In a book titled "Kabbalistic Astrology" (1977, second edition 1990),
Rabbi Joel C. Dobin relates (as I remember) Jewish people to Saturn.
This makes also sense when I think of the medieval assignment of
conjunctions of various planets with Jupiter, the planet traditionally
"ruling" religion, ruling the two likely most religions signs
Sagittarius and (traditionally) Pisces. C.G. Jung lists them in "Aion",
unfortunately without giving a primary source:
Judaism: Jupiter-Saturn conjunction
Islam: Jupiter-Venus conjunction
Christianity: Jupiter-Mercury conjunction
Antichrist: Jupiter-Moon conjunction
Dobin does consider Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions in the book and, in my
recollection, interprets them as moments when god would pass down new
"instructions" or something of that kind, from the outer rim of the
solar system (as known in antiquity) first to Jupiter and then Jupiter
to Mars at the next conjunction, and so on. And he also mentions
astrological ages, in fact in his view the Age of Aquarius would have
started with the first conjunction in Air signs in a long time, the one
of 1982, and note that after an intermezzo of one in earth (Taurus), the
one in late 2020 (Aquarius) and several to come were and will be in Air
signs, something which some astrologers also mentioned related e.g. to
events in the Ukraine, also in historical context.
Now let me present sort of a "high level view", one that I have since at
least around roughly the turn of the millenium, and look at current
events in that light...
In that view, Jewish people would live in a somewhat different matrix
than most other people on earth, essentially still in a matrix of the
Age of Aries with its themes.
Other people would be essentially in a transition from an Age of Pisces
to an Age of Aquarius, actually since my childhood there seems to have
been quite some transition there. For example, when I was a child,
saying that one does not believe in god would have not have been ideal
where I grew up, I would have been an outsider there, but now in
Switzerland that is different, many people are no longer member of a
church, and, for example, the traditionally catholic christian party
"CVP" changed its name to "the middle" (Die Mitte), and was actually
quite successful in recent parlamentary elections.
Between the Age of Aries and the Age of Aquarius, there is basically a
sextile, i.e. there are opportunities. The creativity of the cardinal
Aries is very helpful to drive scientific and technological progress,
something which Aquarius needs and holds high, as it is needed to make
life better for humanity. But Aquarius is also a fixed sign, he does
like things to progress in a constant way overall, in the sense that he
does not like "complete chaos" where several ideas pop up and all change
things a lot. Just some and then making a big fuss about it is fine, but
too much is not good, Ouranos/Uranus in Greek mythology would ban what
he did not like to see into the Tartaros, the lowest part of the
underworld.
These themes intertwine. Recently in an interview, related to an new
book by a German author who does eat lunch every week with a relativel
famous and already very old Jewish woman who survived the Holocaust,
including if I remember the interview no less than 3 selections by
Mengele - cannot find her name of the one of the book right how - she
mentions that Jews would frighten people with inventions/findings like
the ones by Einstein and Freud (and she mentioned more).
What Freud found, was certainly also part of a theme of the Age of
Aquarius, c.f. Uranus and Tartaros above, his therapy consisted of
finding things in the unconscious ("underworld") that were trapped there
(like unwanted things in the Tartaros - Zeus/Jupiter banned
Cronos/Saturn after defeating him in chains to the Tartaros). One
Holocaust survivor, Viktor Frankl, had a manuscript for a book taken
away by the Nazis when he was deported, and then kept writing down what
he could remember again and again, survived, wrote the book again and
published it, logotherapy, which is sort of the reverse approach of what
Freud did. Instead of looking back, looking forward and searching for
the meaning of life, for whatever a certain person/patient really loves
to do. (I got to this this summer, reading the very interesting book
"Ikigai" by two Spanish authors Hector Garcia and Francesc Miralles,
about how people who live very long and in good shape live, especially
on some island in Japan they visited, but see for yourselves...)
That theme of looking backward and forward ("Freud vs. Frankl") is also
an Aquarian theme, with Prometheus ("forethought") and Epimetheus
("afterthought") from Greek mythology.
To me it seems that all these new things at the time, Freud, Einstein's
theory of relativity, abstract art, and so on, were in some collective
sense what created a counterreaction, fighting too much change at once,
which fuled the Nazi regime, gave it enough support from people, to gain
power and then - since they were criminal to even today a quite
extraordinary extent - stay in power for years, and starting the second
world war.
So, are Jews responsible? I say essentially no, overall regarding the
Holocaust not responsible. This is similar to the question of whether a
woman is responsible if she is raped. If she was not a woman, if she did
not have certain traits physically and mentally that many women have,
yes, the probability of getting raped would be lower, but that does not
make her guilty at all.
Similary, if you are Jewish, you are sort of still living in a matrix of
the Age of Aries, your reactions are more immediate to what happens,
which is not per se good or bad. What is different is the context you
are living in. In the Age of Aries itself, all would have reacted
similarly. If someone attacked you, you would likely immediately attack
back, not consider what you yourself might have done that lead to the
attack. And that would be what everybody would have done, hence would
not be seen as "bad". Today it is different. Obviously the Hamas members
who committed the atrocities of early October should be traced down and
captured, and it seems likely that what Israel is doing is the fastest,
most efficient way towards that, with I guess killing those Hamas
members immediately also part of the picture. But it does not live up to
the standards of the Age of Aquarius, where even in a war you start, you
make a difference between soldiers and other people, make sure regular
people get water and food and even Internet. That has even changed in
recent decades, in WWII it was normal to bomb whole cities, i.e. mostly
civilians, not soldiers.
With my moon and MC in Aries I can often relate to many thing that are
"Jewish". I remember once sitting in the early evening with a few
colleagues from work in a tiny restaurant outside. It was just getting
dark and a young waiter was lighting two "torches" that work with oil,
and in some way some oil was flowing onto his shirt and catched fire. I
saw that and immediately jumped up and used my pullover to extinguish
the fire, which worked. Turned out that the waiter had not even noticed
what exactly had happened, nor did my colleagues see anything, and an
older woman from the restaurant, presumably the mother of the waiter,
gave me a suspicious look, so she probably also did not see what had
happened. That is maybe a little bit how it can be as an "Aries" in a
"non-Aries environment".
By the way, the world "Holocaust" apparently means something that burns
up completely, while "Shoa" (the word thad maybe Jews more often use for
the same thing?) seems to mean simply great catastrophe or misfortune.
But back to Jewish people and Saturn.
I recently started to read in the Illiad, noticing that it is much more
"Aries" than the Odyssey, even though the latter has still some quite
brutal things happening, often out of the blue. The Illiad is I guess
quite close to what @etherea wrote above about the Old Testament, "Blood
all over the place".
That resonates well with another idea of mine, namely that every
astrological age creates also things that mirror more the opposite side
of it at least in the second half of each age.
For the Age of Taurus, the fascination with death and the pyramids as
gigantic graves, the oppsite sign Scorpio comes to mind. For the Age of
Aries, Greek culture with many abstract concepts and the adoration of
beauty, like the circle as ultimate ideal, for example, and Saturn as
exalted in Libra might also be a big part of Jewish culture, it did not
stay at just "Aries" either in my view.
On the 7th day (the day of Saturn), the Sabath (friday evening at sunset
to Saturday evening), the fire of Aries is not allowed to burn. I do not
know the Jewish religious writings, not much about the Old Testament,
nearly nothing in detail about Talmud and Kabbalah, but I imagine the
latter two might also feature more "Libra" things.
I am not an expert on history, but in my view Jews in Germany were very
well integrated before the Nazis, which, of course, also included some
being quite extreme capitalists, but in line with how it generally was
at the time. The last names like "Einstein" were apparently translations
of previously Hebrew names, which lead to becoming officially citizens
with passports, etc., i.e. part of (Aquarian) integration. But,
ironically and cruelly, it was exactly that becoming part of
administration that later allowed to do the deportations in such an
industrial way, and it was until today exactly that industrial procedure
that scares people most about the Holocaust - there have been other
genocides, but none of that kind.
In those times apparently many Jews were more like "sheep" than like
"rams", they let themselves be transported to the concentration camps
(at least in one case advertised as a city for Jews with normal houses,
etc.). This explains also psychologically in my view, why today's
Israelis typically react much more immediately to attacks, just not to
make the same mistakes than at the time of Nazi Germany. But
unfortunately, such an immediate response without any consideration is
in my view here also exaggerated. Israel is really treating Palestinians
like second class people, something one would not expect Jews to do,
especially in light to what their parents and grandparents lived
through.
Regarding the geopolitical power play: Could be that Palestinians just
don't have many voices left that fight for them, that maybe surrounding
states inhabited largely by muslims would be not unhappy in the end to
have a Greater Israel around, as it might very likely and bring more
progress to them, a future in the modern world past fossile fuels. To me
feels at least in the moment like Palestinians would be the "Indians"
(native Americans) in this region, that they would be pushed away or
even eliminated, maybe even more so the more they fight against it, and
of course, the countries like Iran that do help, are not necessarily
helpful in the end. But maybe I am not seeing everything...
The Ben Gurion canal would at least as far as plans go not pass through
the Gaza strip, but I am not familiar with the topography... What people
who analyze geopolitics often say is that countries do not have friends,
only interest. This may be what often explains what happens in most
cases, but astrologically, countries have birth charts and thus
identities and fates, and they might also make friendships and even fall
in love, just like people do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Gurion_Canal_Project
Anyways, a very long post already, not like I would be able to bring
world peace by writing a little more...
Just a quick summary:
Judaism: Age of Aries (with Libra elements, c.f. Saturn) living in a
transition between Age of Pisces and Age of Aquarius, hence there will
be anomosities just because if you are Jewish you are different in a
different way than e.g. moslem vs. christian or black vs. white, but
there is also a great opportunity with the sextile of the Age of
Aquarius, if you keep the fire somewhat controlled, i.e. might be a good
idea to listen to the USA, who is sort of the egg that hatches the Age
of Aquarius in many respects, e.g. go for Hamas, but protect/help
civilians, let water etc. come in.
4 Nov 2023 at 10:29 (CET)
Got too long for post above:
Ah, I forgot something. Remember Jupiter-Moon attributed to the
"Antichrist" above? In my view, the Antichrist as bringing the end to
christian religion is in its core the end of the Age of Pisces, hence
the beginning of the Age of Aquarius.
The Hamas attack was with a Jupiter-Moon conjunction, so in a large
collective sense, might be an Aquarian impulse to get some things in
motion there. Is always for individual beings difficult to acknowledge a
"meaning" in such events. How can such atrocities be good for something.
Well, in the life of a human, it can also be sometimes good to maybe cut
one's finger or get hurt in another way, or get drunk, in all cases
there are human cells that are dying, locally where the would is there
is a catastrophic event for the cells "living" there. If there are
beings at larger scale, as I suspect there are, simply as (largely
unconscious) compounds of individual people, then such collective beings
might sometimes also cut themselves or get drunk, etc., and sometimes
maybe with a good overall outcome, and other times maybe not at all, and
not so easy for individual humans to judge.
-----
[The following is Usenet only]
After the two posts of 4 Nov (actually on Sabath), I noticed via an
other thread on the site that Saturn had just very recently turned
direct, with the MC in early Libra and, of course, still with the Star
of David formed by planets in female signs. Also, a bit earlier I had
related some things to my "fate", some in "members-only" threads there,
others public. Here is that, and note that the mother of the mentioned
woman was born on a day where Saturn was stationary, that the maiden
name of the mother had been the Yiddish word for some group of small
animals, and that according to Robert Graves (not cross checked so far),
being Jewish or not (from the point of view of Jews) would be something
inherited matrilinearily, which resonates with my moon in Aries, as well
as with the one of the woman mentioned in the next post and her
boyfriend/partner...
-----
4 Nov 2023 at 12:12 (CET)
I was not consciously aware of that when I posted in the Israel thread
this morning...
Here is the chart for Saturn direct for Jerusalem this morning:
[no image in Usenet]
Again as last evening the Star of David, and MC in early Libra (Saturn
exalted). Personally I could also not help to notice that the mother of
the woman I had mentioned recently in the "Twin Flames" thread (with
very much a Fire, Aries/moon theme, reminding also of the literal
meaning of Holocaust) has an almost stationary Saturn and her maiden
name was the Yiddish word some kind of small animal. Hence, all in all,
my perspective, even if eventually quite sophisticated, seems as so
often just to be a tiny slice of the forces at work...
5 Nov 2023 at 07:37 (CET)
Accordingly in opposition to Saturn in early Pisces, and, also
accordingly, Saturn conjunct Priapus.
--
23 Oct 2023 at 21:07 (CEST), in thread titled "Twin Flames"
: [quote cut here in Usenet]
This is from Plato in the Symposion:
: He [=Aristophanes] professes to open a new vein of discourse, in which
: he begins by treating of the origin of human nature. The sexes were
: originally three, men, women, and the union of the two; and they were
: made round—having four hands, four feet, two faces on a round neck, and
: the rest to correspond. Terrible was their strength and swiftness; and
: they were essaying to scale heaven and attack the gods. Doubt reigned in
: the celestial councils; the gods were divided between the desire of
: quelling the pride of man and the fear of losing the sacrifices. At last
: Zeus hit upon an expedient. Let us cut them in two, he said; then they
: will only have half their strength, and we shall have twice as many
: sacrifices. He spake, and split them as you might split an egg with an
: hair; and when this was done, he told Apollo to give their faces a twist
: and re-arrange their persons, taking out the wrinkles and tying the skin
: in a knot about the navel. The two halves went about looking for one
: another, and were ready to die of hunger in one another's arms. Then
: Zeus invented an adjustment of the sexes, which enabled them to marry
: and go their way to the business of life. Now the characters of men
: differ accordingly as they are derived from the original man or the
: original woman, or the original man-woman. Those who come from the
: man-woman are lascivious and adulterous; those who come from the woman
: form female attachments; those who are a section of the male follow the
: male and embrace him, and in him all their desires centre. The pair are
: inseparable and live together in pure and manly affection; yet they
: cannot tell what they want of one another. But if Hephaestus were to
: come to them with his instruments and propose that they should be melted
: into one and remain one here and hereafter, they would acknowledge that
: this was the very expression of their want. For love is the desire of
: the whole, and the pursuit of the whole is called love. There was a time
: when the two sexes were only one, but now God has halved them,—much as
: the Lacedaemonians have cut up the Arcadians,—and if they do not behave
: themselves he will divide them again, and they will hop about with half
: a nose and face in basso relievo. Wherefore let us exhort all men to
: piety, that we may obtain the goods of which love is the author, and be
: reconciled to God, and find our own true loves, which rarely happens in
: this world. And now I must beg you not to suppose that I am alluding to
: Pausanias and Agathon (compare Protag.), for my words refer to all
: mankind everywhere.
Source: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1600/1600-h/1600-h.htm
(The translator, Benjamin Jowett, lived in the 19th century, and Projekt
Gutenberg states: "This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no
cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever.")
I am not sure if I really understant the theme of "twin flames", but my
take would have been that the two flames are maybe most likely the two
big fires in the sky, sun and moon, and when they meet, there is an
eclipse, hence also related to the nodes, and thus in some ways (why
exactly I don't know) also to reincarnation and the concept of an
immortal soul, with maybe roots back to at least Pythagoras on the Greek
side.
Some associations, not much analytical and maybe already biased:
Artemis+Apollon, Amber Heard (embers/hearth?) and Johnny Depp (her new
movie "into the fire", take a look at the teaser trailer with only her
and the boy with "David Bowie" eyes [1]; they apparently started to date
in 2012?), the official video for the song "The Good Lie" by Warhaus [2]
(you have to watch it to the end, or only the end, to see the
connection), Jim Morrison (who added the "funeral pyre" to "Light my
Fire" written by Robby Krieger) and Pamela Courson, Hancock (Will Smith)
and Mary Embrey (Charlize Theron) in the movie "Hancock", ..., but yes,
there would be more to say, oh well, why not:
A woman I met in 1982, same school class, never really got together, and
at least in my feeling never emotionally (soul) separated after that,
nothing could do that. She moved to a distant city in Eastern Europe
(roughly to where originally was from), got married and had a son (not
sure in which order), and in 2009, with Uranus approaching the spring
point, I really tried to separate things, and also got sick. Not sure
what exactly happened then on "her" side, but very roughly around that
time she split up with her husband and since then has a younger partner,
19 years younger than me, the fires in the same (fire) sign as me, the
sun certainly conjunct mine within about 1° (mid Leo), the moon both in
Aries, rather around the middle, also likely (or even certainly, don't
recall) conjunct, and, yes, the nodes are also conjunct (around 20°
Taurus)... So the two lights sun+moon and noded... As far as I know (or
at least what she said), she does not register a connection with me, so:
is there one, or is it just some kind of trick that the gods play on
humans...? I don't know, but is ok these days, wrote about these things
online before, no need to repeat it all... (yes, she does in fact live
relatively close, same general area than me with her friend, at least as
far as the last thing I know about that, so is that a coincidence?)
Now a pun regarding this forum and me:
In the hatching phase of the forum (around early January 2023) I was
part of the first video conference, and believe it or not, one of the
participants (or rather one in a special role not so immediately
involved) had the same first name as the woman I wrote about above, and
likely the same nationality, and shared also some traits (manner of
speaking and moving) with her, at least in my recollection. So, what
the... Maybe also something related to the founding date of the forum
that might "create" such things, I don't even remember the details of
the founding date(s), but there was something in it, if I remember
correctly, that one would normally not recommend in an election chart?
But maybe my memory is not correct...
Siehe z.B. https://www.exactphilosophy.net/astro-teasers.pdf
auf Seite 8 für ein Horoskop für die 2020er, dort für Mitternacht
in Berlin, also angenommen für Deutschland, aber die Häuser sind
fast überall auf der Welt ähnlich.
Saturn-Pluto und mehr um den IC / 4. Haus herum, also auch die
Ahnen und so, was wohl schon heissen würde, Dinge bewahren, aber
wohl auch der übliche Knatsch zwischen strukturiert ("Saturn")
und ca. nur dem was wirklich notwendig ist ("Pluto"), ganz
verkürzt gesagt.
Die Neptun-Mond Konjunktion im 6. Haus spricht ja vielleich auch
von einer gewissen Angst, dass vieles bisheriges fortgeschwemmt
würde, sowie natürlich auch die Mondknotenachse mit dem s.Mond-
knoten beim IC, sowie dem n.Mondknoten beim MC, was auch heissen
würde, dass viele alte Dinge vergehen würden.
(Nebenbei bzgl. Arbeit, wäre wohl mit Neptun-Mond in 6 auch vieles
etwas schwammiger, und auch mit Anfang Widder noch drin, auch am
Ende auf Neues hin, und Chiron ggf. nahe vom DC, auch Beziehungen
nicht umbedingt so pflegeleicht, oder wie immer man das betrachten
möchte, und nochmals zur Arbeit, eben auch der Status via 10. Haus
doch eher bei Neuem, insb. wohl eher kleineren Units, die man auch
umarmen kann, ich denke da auch von meiner Arbeit her an einer
kleinere Services in der Cloud als grösseren zusammenhängenderen
Systemen, die würden erst mal wohl eher fliessend verhängt.)
Aber nochmals zum Archivieren. Bei mir sowieso ein wenig in Fokus
schon vorher, da kaum zu erwarten, dass was ich tue zu meinen
Lebzeiten noch wesentlich aufgenommen würde, war das doch noch
weiters so, gerade um Astrologie herum, wo ja vieles soweit von
kleinen Organisationen/Firmen/Einzelpersonen getragen wurde...
Aber, soll's mal tun soweit hier und heute...
Something I think I did not notice before:
The Yom Kippur War of 1973 started 6 Oct 1973, and the recent attacks were
7 Oct 2023, i.e. 50 years later, among maybe other things a Chiron cycle.
Double that and you get close to the birth of Henry Kissinger, who was
secretary of state in 1973 at his first return, and he was luck enough
to live almost long enough for a second return.
At his birth (see ADB, RR AA), Chiron was at 19°36' Aries, in the middle
of his 11th house, at the start of the Yom Kippur War of 1973, ~18°54'
Aries (retrograde), i.e. a return had been about 2 weeks earlier for
Kissinger, and one earlier in May 1973... In 1973 there was the Peace
Nobel Prize, and also photos with Jill St. John and Breshnew, but I
do not know things that went on then, but it might well be that the
upcoming return produced additional stress, although a 100, there must
have been other astrological indicators for stress before that he
survived. I think I read that it was problems with digestion in some
way that were the immediate reason for his death (besides high age).
Maybe related to Lilith in some way? N.node in transit at his Lilith
(mean black moon Lilith) at birth, and Lilith in transit just getting
within 10° of his natal n.node? Not sure, maybe I am overlooking
something important...
I guess he was very good at realistic estimation of things at a global
scale, including already seeing the situation in the Ukraine maybe
more clearly already last winter (in February?). Reconquering parts
that have been conquered by Russia seems very difficult, and if
possible, more expensive for "the West" than for Russia, and Russia
is much larger than the Ukraine, so in the medium term things seem
not to look so good for the Ukraine - just apparently in a realistic
estimation, potential wishes aside... Maybe just like Switzerland,
which is even smaller and traditionally between powerful nations,
the Ukraine would have had better chances by giving both sides some
things, and e.g. have two national languages, two tv channels, and
so on? But maybe that was not possible there, and it should, of course,
be mentioned that Selensky (and Kissinger) are of Jewish descent.
But what do I know... With the n.node in Aries, maybe being active,
taking the initiative, also in terms of "war", is maybe at least also
part of future solutions, but there is also Chiron...
Times of Israel, today:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-vows-total-victory-against-hamas-says-pa-rejects-israel-cant-rule-gaza/
: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed Saturday night not to allow the
: Palestinian Authority to take control of the Gaza Strip once Israel
: succeeds in removing Hamas from power, in sharp opposition to US
: President Joe Biden’s position and that of other key international
: actors.
:
: Speaking during a press conference at the Kiryah army headquarters in
: Tel Aviv, Netanyahu accused the Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority of
: promoting and financing terrorism, and described its creation as “a
: terrible mistake.”
:
: The prime minister also pledged to continue the war against Hamas “until
: the end” and until “total victory” is achieved over the terror
: organization, and claimed he had not been able to do so in previous
: rounds of conflict because there had not been the necessary domestic or
: international consensus to do so.
Sorry, but "total victory" sounds so much like "Endsieg" (Hitler/Nazis)...
This is not good at all. Take what I wrote about the astrological Ages
to heart - the only way to survive in the Age of Aquarius is to usually
play by the rules of the Age, else might end similarly to - as it appears
to me - Carthago, where Hannibal stubbornly crossed the Alps with elephants
and vinegar, reminding of the Age of Taurus, and then lost the fixed focus
once in what is today Italy, or the Mithras cult, etc. Yes, as the new Age
of Pisces reminded of the Age of Taurus, also the Age of Aquarius reminds
of the Age of Aries, but that is misleading.
The idea with Israel in my view was that then it would be just one of many
countries with all their individualities, but only up to some degree, while
otherwise essentially be bound by the new Age. Maybe I am seeing things a
but to absolute at this moment, but wrong is wrong, no matter how you turn
it, and mirroring fascism by Jews is about as wrong as it can get in the end.
No more to say...
)o+
Astrologen scheinen immer noch zu träumen, die Astrologie wäre etwas,
das fundamental wissenschaftlich nicht beweisbar wäre, nur weil die
paar naiven Versuche etwas zu beweisen fehlschlugen.
Leicht überspitzt formuliert, aber es sind jetzt doch schon 6 Jahre
vergangen seit meinem Artikel "Deep Learning and Astrology"*, wo ich
hemdsärmlig zeige wie man*frau*... heutzutage etwas in der Astrologie
beweisen könnte, wie auch in vielen anderen Bereichen der Welt, indem
man neuronale Netzwerke mit vielen Daten trainiert... Wer konkret
wissen möchte, wie das geht, siehe die Infos/Kurse unter
https://developers.google.com/machine-learning
Zum Beispiel ganz konkret den "Machine Learning Crash Course", den
ich gar nicht als "crashig" wahrnehme, sondern sehr konkret Schritt
für Schritt aufbaut...
* Heute der erste Teaser im Artikel "Astro Teasers":
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/astro-teasers.pdf
Wenn solche neuronalen Netzwerke Astrologie lernen können und daraus
dann auch aus nichtastrologischen Angaben, sprich was zu Zeitpunkt X
and Ort Y passierte, vorhersagen kann was da astrologisch war, dann
ist etwas aus der Astrologie bewiesen.
Aber nicht nur das, der Weg dahin, auch für zukünftige Ereignisse,
etwas vorherzusagen wäre nicht mehr sehr weit dann...
Die Zukunft vorhersagen war ja mal ein wichtiger Teil der Astrologie,
wenn nicht sogar der wichtigste (oder ev. der einträglichste), und
das ist sehr stark verloren gegangen. Sehr viel Zeit in Diskussionen
und Publikationen wird verwendet für die Interpretation von aktuellen
Ereignissen und wenn überhaupt wird nur wenige Jahre vorausgeschaut,
dabei wäre eben die Astrologie durchaus auch recht gut anwendbar auf
grössere Zeiträume, selbst wenn sie immer im Wandel ist, mit immer
wieder neuen Objekten und Methoden, wobei sich vielleicht sogar da
rum auch etwas voraussagen liesse...
Ist jetzt vielleicht insgesamt recht oberflächlich der Post hier,
wohl auch passend zur Jahreszeit (Schütze), allerdings ist z.B. der
Asteroid mit meinem Vornamen, 1969 Alain, im Moment im Steinbock,
was z.B. schon konkreter wäre.
Jedenfalls sind die grossen US Firmen fleissig daran immer mächtigere
neuronale Netzwerke zu trainieren, was vielleicht für künstliches
Leben noch nicht ausreicht (mind. so lange ohne Quantenmechanik),
siehe auch das Schicksal der Forschungen dazu, ein menschliches
Gehirn im Computer zu simulieren, aber diese neuronalen Netzwerke
werden durchaus zu Dingen fähig sein, die über Menschen hinausgeht...
Zum Teil wohl (nicht zuletzt wohl mit Neptun noch in den Fischen)
Illusion, aber ein Teil davon wird (wohl mit Neptun dann im Widder)
echt konkret zu wachsen beginnen, und vieles mit den Jahren ändern.
Schon in gewisser Weise noch ähnlich wie mit Computern zu Anfang,
die ja da im Rechnen und Logik anwenden und repetitiv Dinge tun
den Menschen überlegen waren und sie aus vielen Tätigkeiten
verdrängten, mindestens sowas wird jetzt auch in anderen Bereichen
passieren, wie weit genau ist doch noch schwierig gut abzuschätzen,
ebenso wie wie weit.
Vielleicht zu einfach gedacht, aber ich vermute mal wenn das v.a.
an den Neptun Zyklus gebunden wäre, wäre eben doch ein Teil Illusion
und der Gesamtzyklus recht lange (so 165 Jahre), also schon nur der
Frühling davon schon über 40 Jahre, also hoffentlich für viele Leute
in ihren Berufen etc. noch genug Zeit sich anzupassen...
Aber ja, wiederum kein weiterer Blick in die Zukunft hier...
Ausser dass ich ja vielleicht doch mal einen Blick mit Machine
Learning auf die Astrologie werfen würde. Ist gar nicht so einfach
übrigens die Dinge zu trennen. Zum Beispiel wäre an einem 5. Dezember
die Venus am Wahrscheinlichsten auch im Schützen, oder im Jahr 1990
der Pluto immer im Skorpion, und so weiter...
Will see...
Welcome to the easy edition of exactphilosophy.net!
(So far no published yet, but soon coming to an Internet near you!)
In late 2017, Google’s DeepMind AlphaZero AI program beat the then
strongest chess program Stockfish easily, at a time when humans did not
have any chance any more anyways. But the way AlphaZero won was what was
really astonishing. Other than chess programs before it, it did not
learn from previous games played by humans (or machines), it had learned
strictly only from the chess rules.
This website has quite a similar approach to reality and the world, only
so far not with AI, but with good old human reasoning. The starting
point here is a completely fresh look at the world, one that does not
assume anything about the world to be known, as if just having opened
one’s eyes (and all other senses) to the world for the first time ever
and trying to make sense of all that is going on in what seems to be an
‘outside‘ and an ‘inside’.
AlphaZero made moves nobody expected, sometimes even sacrificing the
strongest figure on the board, the queen, which humans almost never do.
Similarly, the findings here, even though they usually closely mirror
previous findings of humans about life and the world that have been
aquired across millenia, differ sometimes, as follows…
Since the approach here is strictly scientific in the sense that it all
starts with observation and tries to be as logically consistent as ever
possible, it is never in contradiction with any verifiable facts that
science can regularily predict.
But the approach also naturally leads to concepts that are not directly
part of contemporary science. For example, one of the first concepts
that appears is that there would be something that comes in 4+1 ‘parts’
which has has astonishing similarities with ancient ideas about 4+1
elements (“fire, air, water, earth” and “ether”) or also the similar
concept of eight trigrams of the Chinese I Ching, only in a more modern
and well-defined way. And also emerging quickly is a more modern view of
something that was often called and perceived as gods and godesses in
the past, or similar concepts like a collective unconscious or a world
soul, only here explained more scientifically as unconscious collective
connections and effects.
It is important to note that the two things I just mentioned, concepts
that resemble ancient elements and deities, seem to follow quite
naturally and quite quickly from that fresh look at the world, about as
astonishingly as some of AlphaZero’s moves. Of course, so far (in the
first part of the 21st century), it has just been me doing this, so my
approach might be biased or overlook other possibilities, but it clearly
shows that there is more to be found with that approach. So, if you are
looking for something novel to do, this might be a really good
opportunitity!
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zürich, Switzerland) and am
doing this as a hobby…
Alain Stalder
Bei mir zeigt es im Browser auf Google Groups folgendes an:
"Effective February 15, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support
newUsenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new
content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of
historical data will still be supported as it is done today."
deepl.com übersetzt das so:
"Ab dem 15. Februar 2024 wird Google Groups keine neuen Usenet-
Inhalte mehr unterstützen. Das Posten und Abonnieren von Beiträgen
wird nicht mehr möglich sein, und neue Inhalte von Usenet-Peers werden
nicht mehr angezeigt. Das Betrachten und Durchsuchen historischer
Daten wird wie bisher unterstützt."
Zu faul um ein Horoskop dazu zu machen, weiss auch nicht ob das ev.
00:00 UTC oder Zeit in Kalifornien bedeuten würde...
Hat wohl insgesamt ein Ablaufdatum "dieses sogenannte Usenet"...
Doch kurz geschaut... für 00:00 UTC am 15.2.24 wäre der Mond auf
5°15' Stier, für Greenwich Ende 6 am DC, und insbesondere recht
nahe beim Jupiter auf 8°59' Stier, also (siehe Jung in Aion) der
Signatur des Antichristen "gemäss mittelalterlicher Tradition".
Was mich doch gleich zu Godwin's Law führt...
....denn so eine Konjunktion hatte nicht zuletzt Hitler...
Maybe a good way to end here... sadly, but hey...
Pluto/Mars früh im Wassermann... aber whatever...
Ich habe jetzt doch noch kurz geschaut, wie das für den Hauptsitz von
Google aussähe, Mountain View (CA, Santa Clara County) um 00:00 15.2.24.
Da ist der Mond schon ganz leicht vor dem Jupiter, der Mond auf 9°53'
Stier, der Jupiter auf 9°02' Stier, DC auf 12°49' Stier.
Das Sabische Symbol für 10° Stier wäre:
TAURUS 10
A Red Cross nurse.
Enlistment
A pretty lass in Red Cross uniform is hurrying about the duties
that a warm sympathy has dictated.
Also rein das was Elsie Wheeler sagte, "A Red Cross nurse.",
"Eine rotkreuz Krankenschwester.".
Also mal konservativer. Der AC (12°49' Skorpion) wäre von Mars und/oder
Pluto beherrscht; der Mars ist im 3. Haus ganz knapp vor dem Pluto,
beide früh im Wassermann, der Mars auf 1°36', der Pluto auf 0°48',
und knapp hinter den beiden die Venus auf 8°21' Steinbock. Und der
Merkur ist ebenfalls noch im Wassermann in 3, auf 16°12', allerdings
schon nahe vom IC auf 20°21' Wassermann. Ich weiss nicht genau wie ich
das bewusst für "Freedom of Speech" deuten würde, aber wohl wegen Mars
und Pluto v.a. deute ich das als nicht sehr gut...
Der MC ist im Löwen (20°21'), mit der Sonne auf 26°01' Wassermann, nur
etwa 6° vor dem IC, im 4. Haus, wo weiter vorne 8°08' Fische auch der
Saturn ist. Hat ja gewisse Ähnlichkeiten mit einem "Königsthema" bei
sowohl Sonne wie auch Saturn.
Hm, der Saturn ist da schon fast dort, wie bei einer im Usenet schon
erwähnten "Bekannten", bzw. ihre Saturnrückkehr wäre 2-3 Tage danach,
je nach Geburtszeit.
Tja, und deutsche Leser, schaut auch noch meinen kürzlichen Post auf
alt.astrology an, zu einer neuen Entwicklung auf meiner Website, wo
diesmal ggf. tatsächlich etwas natürlich weiterwachsen könnte, das
sowohl der Website gerecht wird, wie auch viel zugänglicher wäre....
On verra!
PS: Hier wäre noch die Begründung von Google etwas ausführlicher,
wobei sie ja schon recht haben, dass textbasierte Diskussionen hier
praktisch nicht mehr vorhanden sind. Ist für mich aber wie mit Wahl-
recht im Gegensatz zu Wahlpflicht, so verschwindet die Möglichkeit
bei einem Konstrukt das generell offen und frei ist, etwas zu schreiben,
auch aufgrund der Architektur mit vielen Servern weltweit; die Google
Groups neben Usenet sind da eben nicht so frei, sind da auch nicht so
anders wie andere Dinge wie Facebook, Instragram, X, usw., welche
von bestimmten Firmen betrieben werden. Umgekehrt, so wie sich die
AI entwickelt, wie viele Leute werden überhaupt noch bereit sein, ihre
Gedanken frei zu teilen? Ja, sieht halt doch nicht so gut aus...
--
Google Groups ending support for Usenet
If you work with Usenet groups in Google Groups, support for these groups
is ending soon.
What’s changing?
Starting on February 22, 2024, you can no longer use Google Groups (at
groups.google.com) to post content to Usenet groups, subscribe to Usenet
groups, or view new Usenet content. You can continue to view and search
for historical Usenet content posted before February 22, 2024 on Google
Groups.
In addition, Google’s Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) server and
associated peering will no longer be available, meaning Google will not
support serving new Usenet content or exchanging content with other NNTP
servers.
This change will not impact any non-Usenet content on Google Groups,
including all user and organization-created groups. Most of the current
Google Groups content is not Usenet content and will not be affected.
What do I need to do?
If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before February
22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are available,
both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a web search for
"how do I find a usenet text client" Find a new public Usenet server. The
new client you choose will likely have a default server or a set of curated
options for you. If not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP
servers." Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate
data. All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
Why is Google Groups support for Usenet ending?
Over the last several years, legitimate activity in text-based Usenet
groups has declined significantly because users have moved to more modern
technologies and formats such as social media and web-based forums. Much of
the content being disseminated via Usenet today is binary (non-text) file
sharing, which Google Groups does not support, as well as spam.
--
Ich habe noch folgenden Kommentar gemacht:
This is not feedback on the way the announcement is made, it is feedback
that ending support for Usenet is bad for free speech, independently of
whether people are using the medium at the time. The architecture of Usenet
help to keep it open, despite obvious abuses. All in all, I can understand
the reasons at Google, but it is not good overall.
Traum von Prag
Diese Nacht träumte ich, ich wäre mit Vespa oder ev. Auto in Prag,
und würde über eine Brücke über die Moldau fahren zur Seite mit
dem Schloss hin, war eher eine Strasse so in der Art wie Hardbrücke
in Zürich, oder hat glaube ich eine etwas ähnliche in Prag, oder
auch nicht über Wasser die Avenue Wilson in Prag, jedenfalls eher
eine Strasse rein für Autos, wo man recht rasch fahren darf, ich
fragte mich im Traum auch ob da 60 oder 80 war.
Jedenfalls, die Brücke wurde im Traum immer älter von der Bauart,
bis ich auch merkte, dass die Brücke über der Karlsbrücke verlief,
was natürlich heute in echt überhaupt nicht so ist, gegen Ende,
wohl schon am Ende hörte die Strasse glaube ich auch einfach auf,
ging etwas aufwärts, hatte ev. auch einen Brunnen oder so, und ev.
Kopfsteinpflaster, mind. dort wo keine Strasse für Autos und so,
und ich glaube ich stoppte da, ev. auch um umzukehren.
Astrologisch könnte das durchaus einen Bezug zu Merkur rückläufig
im Steinbock und wieder auf Schützen haben, denke ich mir, aber
wohl doch eher andersrum, die Sonne, die gestern Abend, bereits
nachdem der Student viele Menschen getötet hatte, in den Steinbock
lief, von der freien Weite (des Fahrens) in eine ältere Welt.
In den Medien wurde häufig ein Bild gezeigt wo ein paar Studenten
aussen an der Fassade oben der Uni kauern um sich zu verstecken,
was natürlich an den Prager Fenstersturz erinnert, bzw. es gab ja
mehr als einen, ich dachte eher an den vor dem 30-jährigen Krieg.
Also gerade mit dem Gewicht, das Prag symbolisch hätte (z.B. mit
2006 Pluto kein Planet mehr), wenn ein Student nicht wie 1969
sich selbst verbrennt, sondern andere tötet, mutet das schon sehr
seltsam an weltpolitisch-astrologisch gesehen, mal die einzelnen
Schicksale etwas ausgeblendet, die es natürlich immer auch gibt
dort, bzw. es geht ja jede und jeder und * jeden Tag irgendwo hin
wo es viele Menschen hat, und erwartet nicht einen Todesschützen.
In Prag gibt es ja auch ein grosses jüdisches Erbe, oder auch
Madeleine Albright war ursprünglich von dort, also müsste das
wohl auch irgendwie die Zeit momentan spiegeln, vielleicht ja
doch einfach v.a. der n.Mondknoten im Widder ("Mars"/"Krieg")
und den südlichen in der Waage ("Militär").
Ich verstehe immer noch nicht was die Israelis machen. Nach dem
Hamas-Angriff hätten sie locker ganz viele Menschen auf ihrer
Seite gehabt, inkl. im Gazastreifen einmarschieren, wenn sie nur
ein etwas auf die Zivilbevölkerung schauen würden. Was sie jetzt
tun ist einerseits im Moment schlecht, und hilft nicht einmal
unmittelbar militärisch entscheidend viel, es generiert auch die
Feinde von morgen, in wohl noch grösserer Zahl.
Gerade wenn ich an so Dinge wie "Mass-Shootings" denke, in den
nächsten ca. 200 Jahren könnte es sehr gut so weit kommen, dass
ein einzelner Student eine ganze Stadt auslöschen könnte oder
eine einzelne Organisation oder ein kleiner Staat einen anderen
kleinen Staat wie z.B. Israel, und mit so vielen "gezüchteten"
Erzfeinden, wird die Wahrscheinlichkeit dazu ev. eben grösser.
Wie schon auf alt.astrology beschrieben, sehe ich bei Israel,
bzw. in gewisser Hinsicht in der jüdischen Religion, noch das
Widderzeitalter, wo analog zu vor 2000 Jahren mit den Karthagern
mit Stier- zu Fischezeitalter, eine Verwechslung stattfindet,
das neue Wassermannzeitalter, hat schon Ähnlichkeiten mit dem
Widderzeitalter, insb. ist ein kardinales Zeichen wie Widder da
auch oft sehr willkommen, da es neue Innovationen schafft, die
der Wassermann so gerne an die Leute bringt.
Aber nur kriegerisch sein, sich nicht in eine Gemeinschaft ein-
ordnen, wie eben auf Zivilisten kaum Rücksicht nehmen, das passt
am Ende nicht ins Wassermannzeitalter. Eine Idee bei Israel war
eben wohl schon gewesen, dass Israel dann ein Land wie jedes
andere würde in gewisser Hinsicht, mit Eigenheiten, aber doch am
Ende eingebettet in die Welt. Es gibt da ja doch Möglichkeiten,
siehe z.B. die Schweiz in Europa, und noch andere.
In dem Sinn, wäre ja ev. der Amoklauf (wenn die Bezeichnung passt)
in Prag gestern auch ein Warnruf an die Welt gewesen...?
Just below a text-only version of my article “Cargo Cult Astrology”,
which I first published about a year ago on my website. Note that the
last sentence “In the end, [astrologers] were and are still primarily
responsible, not me.” does not judge whether the outcome was a “good”
or a “bad” one, neither for me nor astrologers nor the world. Anyways,
besides maybe this retrograde Mercury, I have moved on to maybe bark
up some other trees... ;)
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/cargo-cult-astrology.pdf
--
Cargo Cult Astrology
As of summer 2022, nothing I ever did in astrology really “landed” there
in the sense that it would continue to spur interest without my direct
involvement, even after almost 20 years and many articles and a book,
while just one article about the I Ching created more response. In the
following some thoughts “in spirals” as they unfolded since January
2022, slightly _polemic_ here and there, maybe; preserved here as
**Zeitzeugnis** of how things seemed in the world then…
*
Astrologers have remained 100% faithful to their multitude of views on
the world, not favoring any one of them more than individually their own
personal view, usually embedded into various currents in astrology and
usually including most of the mainstream, and essentially immune to any
arguments or “proof”, if only that some simplifications regarding how
things are connected would be of any worth, rather preferring to dream
on, of a connection with the “stars” or whatever they would fancy.
Since late August 2021, astro.com has a new slogan, “The Art of
Astrology”. This mirrors the approach to the world at astro.com and in
much of the self-proclaimed “cargo cult” life science astrology it
supports, as well as of many of astro.com’s customers, quite well: There
are no criteria regarding what gets attention in astrology except what
astrologers like!
In June 2002, I had not expected everybody to grasp and like what I
published, but I expected at least some to do so, including also Alois
Treindl, physicist and founder/CEO of Astrodienst AG (the company that
owns astro.com), and Liz Greene, psychologist/astrologer and then chief
astrologer at Astrodienst AG. I was thinking that, especially since my
model was directly derived from how Liz Greene described the star signs
(signs of the zodiac) and the two together had created the
computer-generated psychological horoscope, that they would see the
unique value in my simpler model, as a key to better and more
analytically understand the signs, and also that this would be a
door-opener for proving astrology, reaching out beyond the “ghetto” of
astrology.
It turned out differently.
In early 2005, AT told me that he had shown my original document to LG
at the time (2002) and that she had then deemed it “too theoretical”
while AT himself apparently even more underwhelmingly superficially told
me it was nothing new anyways, referring to a relatively old Swiss book
that, after I had ordered an antiquarian copy for about 100$, turned out
to simply describe the traditional attribution of elements to seasons,
in Aristotle’s circle, and later on AT also had the nerve to call me
eccentric and my choice of domain name “exactphilosophy.net”
exaggerated, which I guess means that he would be the center of it all
and that “astro.com” – covering both “astrology” and “astronomy” and
more by name – would reflect ultimate modesty. What
Astrodienst/astro.com is doing for the immediate needs and desires of
contemporary astrologers is not a problem, that is usually of good to
very good quality; the problem is what they evade and escape, along with
practically all astrologers.
But back to why astrologers love this and not that: In my general model
this would mainly be due to unconscious collective feedback that
manifests in feelings, in other words the Fates would apparently simply
not want people to look at my discoveries openly and more closely, at
least not yet, and there would be nothing in my power that could change
that as long as the Fates do not want it to happen, while, whenever they
would want to in the future, they could presumably do it in two shakes
of a lamb’s tail…
*
If you maybe think I exaggerated above with regards to how contemporary
astrologers view astrology, read the following quotes from the forum at
astro.com in January 2022:
*Waybread*:
: Astrology is basically a subjective art, anyway. I think a good analogy
: is with painting as a fine art. There are specific rules of perspective,
: color, and composition. But after that, the painter makes many
: subjective choices and the viewer subsequently decides whether s/he
: thinks it is a good painting or not.
*Linda Harris*:
: Meanwhile, USE your system. And if it works, what do you care who else
: uses it? I don’t think the job of an astrologer is to change the way
: other astrologers do their work or the way they are comfortable doing
: that work. It’s my point of view that we are here to be of help to those
: who don’t speak the language of “human behavior” in the way that we do…
: to be part of their “solution” and not part of their “problem”.
*zed234* (after reading my article “Elementary Star Signs”):
: It’s an interesting discussion about the origins of the signs and how
: they relate to each other. But as a counseling astrologer, it’s simply
: too simplistic for me to use in any way as a tool to assist a client. I
: have a several books on the history and development of astrology, and
: I’ve seen this discussion or in several related to it several times.
: Very interesting. But not very useful to a practicing astrologer. But
: maybe I’M NOT GETTING THAT. If so, perhaps you could show me how it
: would work in analysis.
You might think that the last two sentences would be an opportunity, but
note that what I had written in the article, in the thread and in what
is publicly readable of my book of the same name (to which I had also
posted a link) did not ring any bells, and it even appears that he
completely misunderstood even basic things, like “about the origins of
the signs” or that he would have “seen this discussion or in several
related to it several times”, plus he commented on Linda Harris’ post
with “nice post, Lainie!”. At some point you simply have seen enough to
still sustain hope, even in the more and more unlikely case that
anything I could do would make any difference in my lifetime, except
maybe if I used the most powerful weapon in the world, the mirror,
namely that I just let things rest, then astrologers would be only faced
with themselves…
*
To be fair, three of the six reviews of my book “Elementary Star Signs”
in 2018 did in fact grasp the basic idea (Christoph Schubert-Weller,
Victor Olliver and Jutta Stemmer), even though almost certainly nobody
grasped the potential, while at least Jutta Stemmer told me by email in
early 2019 that~she does recommend the book as lecture to her pupils at
her astrology school in Munich. But coming back to the beginning: My
core idea is not centered on astrology, so if I simply go by doing that
where my heart is, there will at most be (if at all) one more book about
astrology that briefly teases with many ideas I have about astrology,
but without interest and sustained support by astrologers, unlikely
further attempts to promote my “elemental zodiac signs”.
One important reason behind that decision is also that what I wrote
about elemental star signs may not be perfect, not yet Hollywood-style
accessible to everybody – but I expect some basic abilities and
knowledge from astrologers, and those were overall clearly
lacking—short, I do not see it as my fate/destiny to fight Idiocracy,
obstacles that are *purely imagined* by contemporary astrologers, where
if fact there are practically none at all, even if it was me who might
have unknowingly created those obstacles by the way I write.
I just realized something via a post to the same thread as quoted twice
above, namely that psychological astrology would be mainly water/fire,
while scientific theories are mainly air/earth, going back to an idea
from the 2002 discoveries document, which would, of course mirror, quite
a bit of my past experiences and I probably underestimated how much
energy would be needed to bring such things together, and I might have
done better than I imagined.
For example, regarding Astrodienst/astro.com it would thus make sense
that the company was founded by and lead by a physicist (AT) and would
have “service”/“serving” in its name, as it would be air/earth in a
serving role to astrology, providing the tools for doing astrology
(water/fire), collective watery streams and individual fiery sparks of
pet theories, and it would also explain why AT delegated judgement of my
discoveries document of 2002 practically exclusively to LG who judged it
“too theoretical”, in other words too much of the element air in it,
hence does not fit into astrology. I am finally relieved.
As of the evening of 20 January 2022, still some interesting things have
evolved at the astro.com forum and maybe I will still present my posts
or a selection from them at some point in time, maybe even already by
the time you are reading this. A bit later tonight there will be an
exact opposition of Saturn in transit to my natal Sun in Leo (the only
one for this Saturn cycle), and one of the results of that might be a
broader view by me of the element Air, in a nutshell that maybe I will
see it (besides much logic) also as something social, inspired by Robert
Pirsig, not unlikely also because I myself have no Air in my chart, so
this seemingly tiny bit of information might be helpful in the future
and maybe also shortly worth a lead in the core content of my web site.
Ah, at least something, always beautiful to find out new things for a
researcher in physics.
*
Last night, most likely already today in the early morning, I had the
following dream:
[Usenet: In the post and the article the text was “saffron-colored”.]
: I was at Astrodienst, but it was a different place in the dream, sort of
: a large loft, just one large room, maybe 20m x 25m, and there was a
: woman, a bit like Dolly Parton, even if I did not see her precisely, in
: other words very intelligent and also funny [she was like Dolly Parton
: because of that, there was no defined hair color nor a specific body
: shape besides clearly female in the dream], and we walked to one end of
: the room, or rather almost a corner, and there was also the founder/CEO
: of Astrodienst, in some rather comfortable office chair, leaning back,
: almost lying already, and the woman gave me a present, an envelope that
: was maybe 2x the size of US letter, brown, and inside there was a yellow
: pullover, with a v-neck and squares of about 2” or a bit less stitched
: onto it, both not really my kind of pullover, and behind that about 3
: yellow shirts, with buttons and so, all not really my kind of clothes
: (that would rather be round necks and t-shirts), but I was very happy
: about the present in the dream, and AT in the chair “mumbled” something
: like that giving me the present would be exaggerated, and that was I
: think because I am not working at Astrodienst, but then he said nothing
: any more, and then the woman was again walking across the room,
: astonishingly in the same direction as before, and this time clearly in
: a yellow dress [all yellow clothes in the dream were sunny and warm, not
: like citrus], quite a special, beautiful one,
: with stitched ornaments…
In the West, yellow is Fire, in China Earth (Saturn), the middle (hence
also China itself), and the color of emperors, and it also reminds of
the sun, Psyche’s second task and the golden fleece (clothes, reminding
also of Vesta), and presiding over white-red-black it is also the
elusive color chlōrós of the Great Goddess (of many names) herself, this
time in a hue that evokes honey, and maybe since the dream played at
Astrodienst also alluding to something more Greene… in any case, there
seems to be recognition by the Fates. (And, of course, this mirrored the
transit of Saturn in opposition to my natal sun.)
(In retrospect, seen from June 2022 almost exactly at the summer
solstice, see the maturity initiation ritual to Artemis as a she-bear at
Bauron where young girls (and apparently sometimes also boys) wore
[saffron]saffron-yellow[/saffron] short skirts (that had replaced bear
skins earlier in history) that were possibly dropped at the end of the
ritual. [saffron]Saffron-yellow[/saffron] was quite exactly the color in
the dream, and I even think to remember that I accidentally first wrote
‘skirt’ instead of ‘shirt‘ in the post with the dream at the astro.com
forum, which in retrospect may have been an Artemisian Slip… And ‘V’ in
v-neck might stand for Vesta/Hestia…)
Possibly it was my Saturn return of 1996 in Montréal (late in the 5th
house, trine late Cancer MC and trine Pluto in early Sagittarius in the
2nd) that created lots of ideas (and was lots of work since close to the
cusp of the 6th) but also apparently does make them seem not relevant to
the public (10th) – maybe(!) also because the south node then was where
my moon was at birth, in the 10th house about 5° ahead of my MC? At
least the first return of three in 2025/2026 would have Saturn in the
10th house (with Ceres, n.node and Neptune), assuming I would then still
be at home “on my island of Ithaca” in Adliswil, Switzerland. The book
ELEMENTAL I am preparing on and off since early January 2019 would
indicate that the first of these three returns might be most relevant
for the 29 years after that regarding things of eventually public
interest in my findings—maybe?
(In retrospect, seen from June 2022, it seems much more like a return
influences quite strictly the period to the next return, so the third of
three would be the one to look at for the about 29 years that might
maximally follow, and that one would have interestingly houses almost as
at my birth, which had then only lasted until then next return in
February 1967, which had then placed my Saturn in the 11th house, likely
fitting well with my studies and work integrated into mainstream physics
at the time.)
But how about then just leaning back instead, and have faith that people
will come, both attributes of Pisces, and maybe even more so if at the
end of Pisces, plus Saturn likes minimalism, and then simply wait… until
people come who would then finally be able to “see Saturn in the 10th
house”, augmented by Ceres with gentle growth, with a refreshing
Hollywood-style early Aries cardinal halo of Neptune to dream of, and
boosted by the n.node? Might my dream of being able to just watch things
grow simply come true by waiting, having faith and helping out here and
there? Wish me luck, since my discoveries are very beautiful, rich and
useful/helpful, for almost anybody, at least in the future.
(Seen again from June 2022, maybe a Saturn in the 9th might mirror
mainly just waiting, while maybe also dropping a few things here and
there, quite well, and even for that return, Neptune would be just a
little bit ahead in early Aries, so there might be Hollywood, also since
the 9th house would fit, too, in several ways. Maybe what is already
public would just do and perception change?)
*
In conclusion, the Uranian split of the world into “astrology” and
“astronomy” is – in retrospect not astonishingly – deeper that I naively
assumed, and since currently nobody really suffers from this “division
of labor”, there is little immediate pressure to change anything in that
regard. So, why should I worry all too much? Que sera, sera…
Does all not exclude maybe some other book about astrology some day, or
at least still archiving my posts, but any of that rather just to
preserve some things than to promote them. I guess because I have no Air
in my birth chart, there is no Earth as a goal for me (see my model of
the elemental changes in the star signs), so no urge to literally
manifest things in the world. But a few seeds that start to grow would
still be nice, since at least Ceres and 1969 Alain are in Gemini (Air
sign), which also hints at written publications. And so on.
Just in case: After almost 20 years, in my feeling the overall response
by astrology has been _inexcusable_, and individually also at least by
Alois Treindl, Liz Greene and Robert Hand, while at least some others
may have simply lacked the ability and context to grasp much of what I
present, but overall there is simply no explanation in which all of
these people would have been genuinely nice and open towards me, no
matter how clumsy my attempts may have been*. Accordingly, I do not feel
like I owe astrology anything, if anything it owes me. (But, of course,
a change of mind there would still be welcome…)
*
Going in circles… It is just so sad that nothing took on, nothing
started to grow among astrologers. In 2002 I really expected that most
likely Liz Greene and Alois Treindl would invite me to Astrodienst so
that I could show them my model of the star signs and that from then on
it would take off, would start to grow, they would tell others about it
and many people would start exploring, so that relatively quickly also
some attention outside of astrology would emerge. But instead… see
above.
There comes a point, when people just tell you to do this or that, each
time you have invested some work to present something, to invest even
more work, that you start to think that they are wrong. And likely they
are. Some additional work may really still make sense. But overall,
given the fears and discomforts my stuff seems to stir unconsciously in
people, less is more. So, again back to maybe one day collecting some of
my posts, or maybe not, and maybe still one or two books related to
astrology, but maybe more likely not, and rather one or two other
things, but maybe hardly more. Or maybe something different…
A lot of all the things I did over the years are beautiful. I do not
want to become famous, just would have liked to see some of the things I
found grow. Maybe the latter is too much to hope for, maybe best to just
enjoy the former, things for what they are instead of what people see in
them today.
*
Hey, today, 29 January 2022, someone at the forum, Phoebe, wrote that
she is trying to “make headway” with my “Atomic Model of the Zodiac”,
but also needs “more time to absorb and digest”, which is more positive
feedback than maybe ever regarding the model. (As of late July, I have
not heard anything since then, unlikely that anything evolved there,
like so many times before.)
Maybe just some more faith that things will just turn out well and a bit
more patience, are all that is needed. Liz Greene told me “You have
time.” at the brief and only encounter with me in 1998, just after a
talk by her about Saturn at which I had handed her my chart for
interpretation during a break before. My Saturn is at the end of Pisces,
plus retrograde, and rather slowly so. Maybe simply my moon in Aries in
the 10th house and still at the MC (5° ahead of it) is too impatient;
not always being frustrated because of that might be healthier, also for
my digestion, maybe.
Or this could again be something that leads practically nowhere, just
another illusion, with a trine between Neptune and my north node
currently (and also still with my natal Neptune around there). Then
again, Neptune is likely an important planet also regarding public
waves, Hollywood, so maybe…
*
Venus, also related I guess a lot to Hollywood, is just about to go
forward again today, after having been retrograde since 19 Dec 2021,
which is incidentally also quite exactly the period in which I first
created the “noindex” part of exactphilosophy.net with old webs,
discoveries documents, all my Usenet and I Ching posts, as well as
(earlier versions of) this text, without the actual astro.com forum
posts, at least not yet for this Venus retrograde phase.
Feels like a good moment these past weeks until today, also reminding of
the second task of Psyche (“Venus/Pisces”), Water, patience, waiting for
the right moment. And also again would seem to fit maybe well with
Saturn at its next return for me 14 May 2025 in the 10th house together
with Ceres (“gentle growth”) close by, plus north node, too, as well as,
already in early Aries Neptune (“Hollywood”). I just hope that things
will turn out well regarding these things in the world if they start to
grow, that they would grow gently and create more good than bad, both
initially and in the medium and long-term future.
(Again in retrospect from June 2022, more likely the third return will
matter for a longer time, but who knows what maybe also a short period
could change, if maybe I would get the book ELEMENTAL out then, will
see…)
I just read that the daughter Nala of famous German-speaking singer
Helene Fischer was born two months early (but is perfectly healthy and
well now), 18 Dec 2021, hence just before Venus went retrograde (just 1°
ahead of Pluto), and this was announced in the media today, when Venus
will go direct again.
Well, a day later, with Venus direct again, hopes for anything by me
“landing” in astrology have once again been delusional dreams; for all
that it appears, astrologers are back to their “daily businesses”, just
doing what they fancy.
Maybe I will just do “as above, so below; as below, so above…? In the
future only say something if there is specific interest into my
contributions and otherwise let things mostly rest? Or maybe just do
something else, or more of the same? Que sera, sera… Just so very sad
for me this outcome after almost 20 years, maybe just post for fun and
ignore the fate of the “world”? Maybe just do what Odysseus did in
Kafka’s parable “Das Schweigen der Sirenen” and once more trust the
“Anhang” given there?
* Es wird übrigens noch ein Anhang hierzu überliefert. Odysseus, sagt man,
* war so listenreich, war ein solcher [safran]Fuchs[/safran], dass selbst
* die Schicksalsgöttin nicht in sein Innerstes dringen konnte. Vielleicht
* hat er, obwohl das mit Menschenverstand nicht mehr zu begreifen ist,
* wirklich gemerkt, dass die Sirenen schwiegen, und hat ihnen und den
* Göttern den obigen Scheinvorgang nur gewissermassen als Schild
* entgegengehalten.
* By the way, a codicil to the foregoing has also been handed down.
* Odysseus, it is said, was so full of guile, was such a
* [saffron]fox[/saffron], that not even the goddess of fate could pierce
* into his innermost core. Perhaps he really noticed, even though this is
* beyond human understanding, that the Sirens remained silent, and held
* up to them and to the gods the aforementioned dummy activity merely sort
* of as a shield.
Adliswil, 8 February 2022 at around 12:40 noon
[horoscope image]
(even looks a bit like a shield…)
August 2022: A sabian oracle this spring was an old sea captain rocking
(13° Leo), reminding also of Odysseus’ choice+lot at the end of Plato’s
_Republic_, and maybe, just maybe, I will still tell you some stories
about some of the ‘islands’ I discovered on my virtual journeys…
To be fair, all I ever wanted is to be with her, just have her around me
in everyday life, live together, found a family, the usual, this is why
I tried astrology, because she had made a presentation about astrology
in school, the rest was not so important, including this here.
* Epilogue (March 2023): Around the closedown of the forum at astro.com,
I realized via some closer contact that the proponents from the
generation with Pluto in Leo would really have heavy deficits when it
comes to perception, some kind of inability to perceive things outside
of the own predator focus. Seemed only fair to point this out for once
relatively directly. And still in the end almost infinitely sad,
considering also that the people who continue it are younger.
* December 2023: In the end, they were and are still primarily
responsible, not me.
--
PS: “bark up some other trees” :)
https://www.artecat.ch/space-time-elements.html
Space Time Elements Teaser
In late 2017, Google’s DeepMind AlphaZero AI program beat the then
strongest chess program Stockfish easily, at a time when humans did not
have any chance any more anyways. But the way AlphaZero won was what was
really astonishing. Unlike chess programs before it, it had not learned
from previous games played by humans (or machines), it had learned
strictly only from the chess rules.
This book has quite a similar approach to reality and the world, only so
far not with AI, but with good old human reasoning. The starting point
here is a completely fresh look at the world, one that does not assume
anything about the world to be known, as if just having opened one’s
eyes (and all other senses) to the world for the first time ever and
trying to make sense of all that is going on in what seems to be an
‘outside‘ and an ‘inside’.
AlphaZero made moves nobody expected, sometimes even sacrificing the
strongest piece on the board, the queen, which humans almost never do.
Similarly, even though the findings here usually closely mirror previous
findings of humans about life and the world that have been aquired
across millenia, sometimes they differ, as follows…
Since the approach here is strictly scientific in the sense that it all
starts with observation and tries to be as logically consistent as ever
possible, it is never in contradiction with any verifiable facts that
science can regularily predict.
But the approach also naturally leads to concepts that are not directly
part of contemporary science. For example, one of the first concepts
that appears is that there would be something that comes in 4+1 ‘parts’
and has astonishing similarities with ancient ideas about 4+1 elements
(“fire, air, water, earth” and “ether”), or also the similar concept of
eight trigrams of the Chinese I Ching, only in both cases in a more
modern and well-defined way. And also emerging quickly is a more modern
view of something that was often called and perceived as gods and
godesses in the past, or similar concepts like a collective unconscious
or a world soul, only here explained more scientifically as unconscious
collective connections and effects.
It is important to note that the two things I just mentioned, concepts
that resemble ancient elements and deities, seem to follow quite
naturally and quite quickly from that fresh look at the world, about as
astonishingly as some of AlphaZero’s moves. Of course, so far (in the
first quarter of the 21st century), it has just been me doing this, so
my approach might be biased or overlook other possibilities, but it
clearly shows that there is more to be found with that approach. So, if
you are looking for something novel to do, this might be a really good
opportunitity!
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zürich, Switzerland) and am doing this as a
hobby…
--
Refs:
- https://www.artecat.ch/space-time-elements.html
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net
Not sure if that relates directly to Taoism, but I do, and hence this
probably does too, besides not like there would be that much posted
here that would be on-topic in a narrower sense...
In late 2017, Google’s DeepMind AlphaZero AI program beat the then
strongest chess program Stockfish easily, at a time when humans did not
have any chance any more anyways. But the way AlphaZero won was what was
really astonishing. Unlike chess programs before it, it had not learned
from previous games played by humans (or machines), it had learned
strictly only from the chess rules.
This book has quite a similar approach to reality and the world, only so
far not with AI, but with good old human reasoning. The starting point
here is a completely fresh look at the world, one that does not assume
anything about the world to be known, as if just having opened one’s
eyes (and all other senses) to the world for the first time ever and
trying to make sense of all that is going on in what seems to be an
‘outside‘ and an ‘inside’.
AlphaZero made moves nobody expected, sometimes even sacrificing the
strongest piece on the board, the queen, which humans almost never do.
Similarly, even though the findings here usually closely mirror previous
findings of humans about life and the world that have been aquired
across millenia, sometimes they differ, as follows…
Since the approach here is strictly scientific in the sense that it all
starts with observation and tries to be as logically consistent as ever
possible, it is never in contradiction with any verifiable facts that
science can regularily predict.
But the approach also naturally leads to concepts that are not directly
part of contemporary science. For example, one of the first concepts
that appears is that there would be something that comes in 4+1 ‘parts’
and has astonishing similarities with ancient ideas about 4+1 elements
(“fire, air, water, earth” and “ether”), or also the similar concept of
eight trigrams of the Chinese I Ching, only in both cases in a more
modern and well-defined way. And also emerging quickly is a more modern
view of something that was often called and perceived as gods and
godesses in the past, or similar concepts like a collective unconscious
or a world soul, only here explained more scientifically as unconscious
collective connections and effects.
It is important to note that the two things I just mentioned, concepts
that resemble ancient elements and deities, seem to follow quite
naturally and quite quickly from that fresh look at the world, about as
astonishingly as some of AlphaZero’s moves. Of course, so far (in the
first quarter of the 21st century), it has just been me doing this, so
my approach might be biased or overlook other possibilities, but it
clearly shows that there is more to be found with that approach. So, if
you are looking for something novel to do, this might be a really good
opportunity!
I am a physicist (*1966 in Zürich, Switzerland) and am doing this as a
hobby…
--
Refs:
- https://www.artecat.ch/space-time-elements.html
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net
This is at least one of the "other trees" I mentioned in the other post
today. Relates also twofold to astrology, via elements and as also an
unconscious collective belief, working to first order without the "stars".
Raum Zeit Elemente Teaser
Ende 2017 besiegte das KI-Programm AlphaZero von Googles DeepMind das
damals stärkste Schachprogramm Stockfish problemlos, zu einem Zeitpunkt,
wo Menschen dazu sowieso keine Chance mehr hatten. Aber das wirklich
Erstaunliche war die Art und Weise, wie AlphaZero gewann. Im Gegensatz
zu früheren Schachprogrammen hatte es nicht von früheren Partien
gelernt, die von Menschen (oder Maschinen) gespielt wurden, sondern
strikt nur von den Schachregeln.
Dieses Buch hat eine ganz ähnliche Herangehensweise an die Realität und
die Welt, nur soweit nicht mit KI, sondern mit gutem alten
Menschenverstand. Der Ausgangspunkt ist ein völlig neuer Blick auf die
Welt, der nichts von der Welt als bekannt voraussetzt, als hätte man
gerade zum ersten Mal die Augen (und alle anderen Sinne) für die Welt
geöffnet und versucht, sich einen Reim auf all das zu machen, was in
diesem scheinbaren ‘Aussen’ und ‘Innen’ vor sich geht.
AlphaZero machte Züge, die niemand erwartet hatte, und opferte manchmal
sogar die stärkste Figur auf dem Brett, die Königin, was Menschen fast
nie tun. Analog, auch wenn die Erkenntnisse hier in der Regel frühere
Erkenntnissen der Menschen über das Leben und die Welt, die über
Jahrtausende hinweg gewonnen wurden, gut spiegeln, weichen sie manchmal
doch ab, wie folgt…
Da der Zugang hier streng wissenschaftlich ist im Sinn davon, dass er
von der Beobachtung ausgeht und versucht, so logisch konsistent wie
irgendmöglich zu sein, ist er nie im Widerspruch zu nachprüfbaren
Fakten, die die Wissenschaft regelmässig vorhersagen kann.
Aber der Ansatz führt auch auf natürliche Weise zu Konzepten, die nicht
direkt Teil der heutigen Wissenschaft sind. Eines der ersten Konzepte,
das auftaucht, ist dass es etwas gäbe, das aus 4+1 ‘Teilen’ bestünde,
und das erstaunliche Ähnlichkeiten mit antiken Vorstellungen von 4+1
Elementen (“Feuer, Luft, Wasser, Erde” und “Äther”) hätte, oder auch mit
dem ähnlichen Konzept der acht Trigramme des chinesischen I Ging, nur in
beiden Fällen in einer moderneren und wohldefinierten Weise. Was auch
rasch hervorkommt, ist eine modernere Sichtweise auf etwas, das in der
Vergangenheit oft als Götter und Göttinnen bezeichnet und wahrgenommen
wurde, oder ähnliche Konzepte wie ein kollektives Unbewusstes oder eine
Weltseele, nur hier wissenschaftlicher als unbewusste kollektive
Verbindungen und Effekte erklärt.
Es ist wichtig zu bemerken, dass die beiden Dinge, die ich gerade
erwähnt habe, Konzepte, die antiken Elementen und Gottheiten ähneln,
recht natürlich und recht schnell aus diesem frischen Blick auf die Welt
zu folgen scheinen, etwa so erstaunlich wie einige von AlphaZeros Zügen.
Natürlich war es bisher (im ersten Viertel des 21. Jahrhunderts) nur
ich, der diese Betrachtungen gemacht hat, also könnte mein Ansatz
voreingenommen sein oder weitere Möglichkeiten übersehen, aber es zeigt
sich bereits deutlich, dass mit diesem Ansatz mehr zu finden wäre. Wenn
du also auf der Suche nach etwas Neuartigem wärst, könnte dies hier eine
echt gute Gelegenheit sein!
Ich bin Physiker (*1966 in Zürich, in der Schweiz) und mache das hier
als ein Hobby…
--
Refs:
- https://www.artecat.ch/raum-zeit-elemente.html
- https://www.exactphilosophy.net/index-de.html
Das ist zumindest einer der "anderen Bäume", die ich im anderen Post
erwähnt hatte. Hat auch in zweierlei Hinsicht einen Bezug zur Astrologie,
via Elemente und auch als unbewusster kollektiver Glauben, der in erster
Ordnung ohne die "Sterne" funktioniert.
one wrote:
: A sense of self could emerge naturally, given an outside and inside.
In me that sentence evokes the image of a world split into two halfes,
say black below and white above, separated by a horizontal "border",
and then it starts turning, turning into the yin-yang symbol, and it
reminds me of one of the origins of the yin-yang symbol, the sunny
and shady sides of a hill that trade places during a day, due to the
apparent movement of the sun in the sky or in today's view the rotation
of the earth.
Richard Wilhelm in the Introduction of "I Ching or Book of Changes"
(transl. Cary F. Baynes):
: In its primary meaning yin is ‘the cloudy’, ‘the overcast’ and yang means
: actually ‘banners waving in the sun’, that is, something ‘shone upon’, or
: bright. By transference the two concepts were applied to the light and
: dark sides of a mountain or of a river. In the case of a mountain the
: southern is the bright side and the northern the dark side, while in the
: case of a river seen from above, it is the northern side that is bright
: (yang), because it re ects the light, and the southern side that is in
: shadow (yin).
one continued:
: The line, a duality line, separating the two might be felt skin-wise.
Assuming that at least most adults in a typical conscious state would be
able to categorize practically everything they perceive as either inside
or outside, what separates the two would have to be invisible, because
if it was visible, it would be perceived as inside or outside, and hence
would not be part of what separates them.
Hence the maybe simplest way of imagining what separates the two would
be as an infinitely thin "membrane", as a "skin", while since it would
by definition not be visible, it could still be arbitrarily complex.
one went on:
: Feeling separate from the outside in some Way may
: then follow and eventually alienation, identification, a
: crisis of a sort leading to a resolution called Dao.
Sounds/feels quite natural to me.
aye one wrote:
: Being unable to copy/paste is my second observation.
Just scroll down... ;)
I guess the site has a certain duality in itself, beautiful images
that cannot be so easily stolen and, yet, primarily for Google's
convenience and for other search engines, a plain html text...
one aye one wrote:
: Without motion, how to determine duration
: might require a clock of some sort.
I guess all clocks I know of just mirror and maybe transform motion
in some form, be it sand or water that flows, a spring that moves a
gear, a crystal or atom that is oscillating.
By the way, Usenet was probably founded around Xmas-New Year, don't
remember the year at this time, and Google will stop mirroring it
in about two months, and maybe it will end not more than about 10
years after that, speaking timewise... Astrologically, retrograde
Mercury just flowed back in time from Capricorn, ruled by Saturn,
in Greece Cronos, related to time Chronos, back into Sagittarius,
the sign often perceived as most philosophical.
Anybody here ever heard about Alberto Giaccometti's "Horizontal
Time"? Maybe look it up, actually you might find even something
about that specifically, if you dive a bit deeper into my site...
Beyond just in and out ("space"), I split things naively into
resting and moving ("time"):
emo: moves outside
ero: rests outside
emi: moves inside
eri: rests inside
Independently of whether that was a wise choice, it does mirror
the ancient Greek elements and also the trigrams of the I Ching,
as maybe too densely exposed on my site.
But no claims of having come closer to "ultimate truths", but
certainly new and interesting ways of circling them, like the
sun around a hill... ;)
dolf wrote something, not sure if immediately related to me
at all, at least not in the usual sense one might expect...:
: You are being wilfully ignorant since the I CHING is subject to a broader
: Han dynasty era (pre Christian) treatise known as the canon of supreme
: mystery by which the Chinese since 21 December 103 BCE anchor their
: identity.
:
: Of necessity the mapping of 64 elements to 81 TETRADS requires some
: duplication.
:
: <https://www.grapple369.com/nature.html>
You got me. I wilfully (willfully?) omitted to mention the only thing
that was really worth mentioning in the context, plus unlike you I
wilfully (willfully?) refrained from crossposting to such obviously
related newsgroups as aus.politics and uk.legal, which you did...
But the year 103 BCE does ring a bell. Once more as so often in Usenet
for me less a conversation with other participants, but with something
"bigger", something like the collective unconscious in some ways...
In my 2002 article "A few new discoveries in physics" (available on my
website if you dig a little), that would have been the year in which the
first star of the ("Western") constellation of Pisces, alpha Pisces,
Alrisha, crossed the spring equinox. It stands for the knot in the cord
that connects the two fish in the sky, mother and son, hence it can be
seen as the birth of the Age of Pisces, with the first about 400 years
influenced by the vertical fish (son), when Christianity arose, and ever
since the horizontal fish (mother), maybe still mourning her son.
In 2022 I calculated a year of 110 BCE instead of 103 BCE, but Alrisha
is a dual star, not sure now it is or was perceived precisely. Anyways,
the "cultural revolution" in China at the time seems to coincide with
that, too. In the West since about that time an astrology emerged that
was more detached from the stars, a tropical zodiac that is split into
12 signs of equal size, unlike the constellations, which are arbitrary
in the immediate sense anyways. If you split the Ages also that way and
start with Alrisha, the Age of Aquarius would start roughly in 2044,
when tropically Alrisha would move into Taurus.
Maybe that would be the end also of Usenet? ;)
Fool-of-Willy-wise hopefully not crossposting this one... :)
And thanks for the link...
dolf wrote:
: You are being wilfully ignorant since the I CHING is subject to a broader
: Han dynasty era (pre Christian) treatise known as the canon of supreme
: mystery by which the Chinese since 21 December 103 BCE anchor their
: identity.
:
: Of necessity the mapping of 64 elements to 81 TETRADS requires some
: duplication.
I had never heard of the "canon of supreme mystery" before today
(or if I had, I would have forgotten about it...)
Wikipedia says it dates back to 2 BCE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taixuanjing
Do you have references for an earlier date? Not that an earlier date
would be that astonishing, and in any case I would expect it to more
similar to the Tao Te Ching that comes in 81 parts, part of the 9 x 9
theme, with 3x3 x 3x3 = 9 x 9 tetragrams.
For more of my context see what I write about the I Ching, especially
in the leads related to transformations of elements...
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/iching.html
I like that (from Wikipedia):
- the unbroken line for heaven
- once broken line for earth
- twice broken line for man
reminding of the image of the tortoise/turtle with belly for earth
and back for heaven.
Anyways, sounds like something worth pondering a bit...
And also thanks to one for the replies... :)
Ah, maybe one bit:
one wrote
: No idea why servers serve users who use the network.
In the past practically every Internet provider had a newsserver,
I guess was initially also a matter of reducing traffic across
the continents, today with all the movie streaming and so on no
longer relevant. But since some time except eternal September
mainly provided by servers for "sharing binaries", typically
movies and games and software, I presume not all legal, at least
not everywhere, and still keeping text groups makes not difference
regarding network traffic or storage, but can be presented as
doing something in public interest. Since Covid, producers of
movies have apparently found ways to prevent movies and series
to end up on Usenet or rather to disappear quickly again. I did
post something to alt.binaries.misc in May (something legal),
and was astonished at the amount of password protected binary
posts... I could imagine that that would disappear at some
point, for legal reasons resp. political pressure on countries
like the Netherlands who host such servers. With the binaries
no longer shareable, I presume most or all of those servers
would just shut down. But I am not really an expert around these
things, just what I stitched together from what I know, but in
a way everything in life is a bit like that :)
One more thing:
The 28 (lunar) mansions in the Chinese sky were apparently in
roughly that form also known in the "West", at least as far
west as the Middle East, but at the moment no direct reference
at hand for that. Would imply that there was at least some
cultural interaction/interchange over long time spans, not
necessarily people travelling from "West" to "East" directly,
but more like from A to B, someone else from B to C, and so on
and thus over longer time spans communicating cultural ideas...
I wrote:
: I like that (from Wikipedia):
:
: - the unbroken line for heaven
: - once broken line for earth
: - twice broken line for man
:
: reminding of the image of the tortoise/turtle with belly for earth
: and back for heaven.
Hm, there seems to be some ambivalence about whether the once
broken line would be earth or man (and the twice broken line
man or earth), Unicode names seem to have things flipped as
opposed to above, which would put man into the middle between
earth and sky, which is usually how it is with most people,
especially in antiquity, but...
https://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D300.pdf
: 1D300 𝌀 MONOGRAM FOR EARTH = ren
: • usually associated with human (Chinese rén),
: rather than earth (Chinese dì)
https://maitreyayana.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/taixuanjing.jpeg
: Hence a saying, dao ke dao fei chang dao, eh.
Yeah... :)
I guess I can now see analytically where some of the ambivalences in the
Tài Xuán Jīng are coming from, but that does not mean that that would be
true/enduring/... reasons, let me still evoke them, maybe they can sort
of hint at the Dao...
The notion of broken or unbroken lines goes in my feeling largely back
to bone oracles of the Shang dynasty, where a turtle plastron or the
shoulder bone of an ox (or something similar) was poked with a hot rod
and it would sometimes break, or maybe not. Strength would have been
not to break ("yang"), weakness to break ("yin"), at least later in
history when also in the "West" things got quite patriarchal.
Certainly a simplification, but that is essentially where I see the
I Ching to have come from. Breaking twice makes immediately less
sense in that context. If you poke twice, you might get two cracks
or one at either spot or none, hence rather 2x2 = 4 different things
than 3 as in the Tài Xuán Jīng.
In one of my pet theories, different "thought systems" in China would
be related to different changes of the "Greek" elements:
: 6 transformation of air 36 = 6 × 6 Stratagems
: 7 transformation of fire 49 = 7 × 7 Qixi (Ch’i ?)
: 8 transformation of earth 64 = 8 × 8 I Ching
: 9 transformation of water 81 = 9 × 9 Tao Te Ching
[...]
: In ancient China, fields in agriculture used to be divided into squares
: of 9 = 3 × 3 fields, with 8 fields (earth) owned by individual families
: around a central 9th field that belonged to all families and contained
: the well (water).
:
: -------
: | | | |
: -------
: | |o| |
: -------
: | | | |
: -------
See one of the leads at https://www.exactphilosophy.net/iching.html
for more context... Plus in the "West" Neptune would be the 9th
astrological planet, the god of the Sea, while the 8th would be
Uranus, the "disruptor", even though they were only discovered much
later in history; earlier likely north and south node for 8 and 9.
The I Ching would thus have somewhat of an earthy nature, where a
binary decision that "breaks" or "does not break" would make sense,
but water usually does not break (except when frozen to ice)...
A single broken line is earth in the context of the I Ching, so why
not also in the Tai Hsüan Ching, which is one reason why that would
still be earth, despite the idea of layering sky-human-earth.
And, maybe most crucially, maybe humans are more flexible, can be
more yielding and transformative than loess-like earth in China,
hence the twice broken line... So the twice broken line would be
more human, also because it does not make sense in a more literal
way coming from bone oracles...
Reminds me also that at around that time (very roughly around 0 CE)
in the "West" the constellation Scorpio was broken up into two parts,
the Scorpion with still its stinging tail, but its claws became the
two scale pans of a new sign, Libra. It was also then when the zodiac
was divided into 12 equally sized parts and detached from the sky via
tropical zodiac, abstractly disregarding precession.
Symbolically, Libra, as the only instrument, made by humans, was even
more making the "Zodiac" not true to its name ("zoo" - animals).
I have no direct evidence, but I suspect the Chinese Zodiac to have
emerged roughly also in that time span, presumably via some cultural
interchange via the Silk Road... Like the "Western" zodiac, it has a
strict division into 12 segments of equal size, but unlike in the
"West" there are no constellations in the sky that correspond to the
12 animals of that zodiac.
Similarly, the Tài Xuán Jīng would likely also have emerged in that
time out of a similar mindset, involving more human shaping than in
older traditions as the I Ching or Tao Te Ching...
That makes it interesting to me... By the way, I noticed that dolf
has a last name that suggests Dutch origin, a country that has sort
of taken land ("earth") from Poseidon/Neptune, the sea ("water"),
hence it would not be astonishing, that he would apparently be drawn
to the Tài Xuán Jīng, or even apparently (if I understood correctly)
attempt to map the 64 hexagrams to the 81 tetragrams...
(And I cannot help notice, in light of maybe Usenet going away,
that 'dolf reminds also of Godwin's Law a little bit...)
I mentioned ice further above. Water can have three states, it can
be solid ("earth") as ice, it can be a gas ("heaven"), and it can
be fluid ("water"), like maybe people...
one wrote:
: “It would rather be alive and dragging its tail in the mud”
Yeah, I know this story, one of my favorites...
|:| :|:
one wrote:
: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanxue
: << Daodejing speaks of the Dao as Xuan >>
At that link:
: The name first compounds xuan (玄) "black, dark; mysterious, profound,
: abstruse, arcane." It occurs in the first chapter of the Daodejing
: ("玄之又玄，眾妙之門"). The word xuan literally depicts a shade of deep,
: mystical, dark red. Daodejing speaks of the Dao as Xuan, more specifically
: underpinning the depth, utter impenetrability, and the profound mystery
: of the Dao.
The key to me is "deep [...] red". One of the archaic three colors, in
Greek:
- melas: dark/"black" (anything dark/"black", maybe even water)
- pyrros: color of fire/"red" (anything yellow-orange-red-darkred)
- leukos: light/"white" (anything light/bright/"white")
In archaic times ("West" and "East") the colors on vases and such.
Related to "The White Goddess", a presumed omnipresent cult in
prehistory around essentially the moon as one goddess, in her
colors in the order of ripening mulberry (or similer berries),
white-red-black.
I write at https://www.exactphilosophy.net/origins.html:
: In the article “Red, White, and Black in Symbolic Thought: The Tricolour
: Folk Motif, Colour Naming, and Trichromatic Vision” (Folklore, 123:3,
: 310-329, 2012), Jessica Hemming mentions that red was typically a color
: that is darker than fresh blood, more towards brown. Now, Menstrual blood
: can often be darker (already oxidized) than blood from a fresh wound,
: which would again link to the moon.
That is where I see the dark red of Xuan...
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/49965/49965-h/49965-h.htm
"A Minimalist Translation, By Bruce R. Linnell, PhD, 2015"
: The Dao that can be spoken of is not the ever-constant Dao.
: The name that can be named is not the ever-constant name.
: That which is without-name is the beginning of heaven and earth.
: That which possesses a name is the mother of the ten thousand creatures.
: Therefore : always without-desire, thus you observe its subtle mystery.
: Always possessing desires, thus you observe its external appearances.
: These two, they arise from the same source but have different names;
: This sameness is called their deep mystery [xuan].
: Deep mysteries [xuan], and again deep mysteries [xuan] –
: The gateway of many subtle mysteries [xuan].
Earth and heaven as black and white or white and black, plus the secret
of all life, the female sex, just as Delphi in Greece literally denotes
the female sex, the dao/tao is about the same.
[Around this finding there was a trifold conjunction of 105 Artemis,
100 Hecate and Mean Black Moon Lilith in early Virgo, most likely in
the 9th house, assuming the discovery was shortly before posting.
Chiron had just turned direct a few hours ago, at 04:09:49 CET, and
late afternoon of the previous day, roughly around 17:30, one of my
daily contact lens broke into three parts while removing it from my
right eye after having slept a little, still lying in bed while
removing it. I only had the lower piece in the photo below on my
finger and managed to remove the upper part after some tries, but a
certain irritation remained until 31 Dec 2023 when I dipped my head
into a bowl of warm water with a little salt added and tried to wash
out what might still irritate my eye. Apparently that worked, even
though I could not find the missing third part that would have been
shaped a bit like a moon crescent.
That it was the eye might also relate to Chiron in Aries (the sign
assigned to the head), while in ancient Egypt the right eye was the
sun (and Osiris), so maybe a hint at too much "sun" and not enough
"moon", also since focus would be what a lens provides, another solar
theme that would have had to break, so maybe hinting also at maybe
favoring the relatively aquarian dual pocket book project "Space Time
Elements" resp. in German "Raum Zeit Elemente"? All in all, bringing
something to people would be aquarian, not Leo, and Pluto soon again
to enter Aquarius and the most recent Jupiter-Saturn conjunction of
Dec 2020 in early Aquarius, opposite my natal Mercury and AC. But it
maybe simply means to do several things, not decide between A and B
or simply be more taoist, and there is a dark red mystery regarding
at least the missing part ... hey, now I maybe understand, the first
piece might be exactphilosophy.net, the second "Space Time Elements"
and the third and most important one would still be ELEMENTAL, but
could or should it be written ("trodden", "named", etc.)? ;)]
I guess the confucianist attempted approach with the Tai Xuan Jing,
which replaced the female sex with "man", similar maybe with patriarchal
tendencies in Greece etc. at the time, and attempts at a unified view
of the world at the same time by Stoicism and others, is an approach
that could not work in the end, you cannot put a structured corset or
straightjacket around the Dao De Jing / Tao Te Ching, it simply does
not reflect it in the end...
But I guess how it failed and where it maybe still revealed interesting
things, might be interesting, which is why I ordered all three books
about the Tai Xuan Jing I could find:
2010
The Canon of Supreme Mystery: A Translation with Commentary of the T'ai
hsuan ching by Michael Nylan (Suny Series in Chinese Philosophy & Culture)
by Yang Hsiung (trans By Michael Nylan)
"Han thinkers saw in this text a compelling restatement of Confucian doctrine
that addressed the major objections posed by rival schools including Mohism,
Taoism, Legalism and Yin-Yang Five Phase Theory. Since this Han amalgam formed
the basis for the state ideology of China from 134 B.C. to 1911, an ideology
that in turn provided the intellectual foundations for the Japanese and Korean
States, the importance of this book can hardly be overestimated.""
1994
The Elemental Changes: The Ancient Chinese Companion to the I Ching: The Ancient
Chinese Companion to the I Ching. The T'ai Hsüan Ching of Master Yang ....
(Suny Series in Chinese Philosophy & Culture)
by Master Yang Hsiung (trans By Michael Nylan)
1984
The Tai Hsuan Ching : the hidden classic
by Derek Walters
Michael Nylan is a woman (Michael as a women's first name is apparently not
very common, but still something that is regularly done.)
Besides the archangel Michael (m/f), the last name seems to come from Ireland,
not astonishingly to me, apparently from County Clare, but even if not...
https://www.houseofnames.com/nylan-family-crest
: The surname Nylan was derived from the Gaelic "O Niallain," which means
: "descendant of Niall."
Which (via Google) made me think of "Niall of the nine Hostages":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages
(Nine as in 9x9 = 81 in the Dao De Jing.)
Michael Nylan was born 17 November 1950.
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q98374418
That makes here a (late) Scorpio, the star sign which is assigned to the
sexual organs in the human body. She has a strong trine to the north node
around about 25° Pisces, and Saturn very late in Virgo in opposition near
the south node, actually Saturn very close to the Saturn of Usenet,
founded in late 1979 (no exact date), hence also at her south node quite
precisely. Structures would be Saturn and also Virgo, hence also the
hierarchies of groups in Usenet, but probably not her thing with her
placement of the south node ("past lives", "first part of life"), at least
not at her age, and likely also not for me with Saturn in late Pisces
and Chiron at 25.x° Pisces...
But, still makes me wonder what she wrote, even if she "only" translated
an existing Chinese text... Ireland is still very much a country of "The
White Goddess", Robert Graves who wrote it was from here, and so on,
maybe because Christianity got there so late, but probably, wrong word,
the secret is deeper, like Tom Crowe’s "The Dark Toy" maybe, but... ;)
Anyways, should I be happy to have more analytically understood something
about the Dao De Jing / Tao Te Ching now, earth-delphi-heaven, earth-sea-sky,
earth-water/fire-air? I guess not, is again I guess against the current of
the Dao De Jing / Tao Te Ching, simply because it was named/trodden/etc.
Oh well...
PS: Maybe I should have crossposted this to aus.politics and more, since
Han China is still there and the above does reflect their bias and limitations,
also via Tai Xuan Jing? Fortunately, the West would not have an bias?
Yeah, sure... ;)
This was my most important post ever, my best idea, the basis of my website
exactphilosophy.net since relatively shortly after that...
https://www.exactphilosophy.net
Let this be my last Usenet post ever...
(Never say never, but this would be my wish at the moment...)
--
In condensed form:
me, see: space, in/out
pictures change: time, rest/move
fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
want, pictures change differently: 5th element
Long version:
Let me start with a similar text that I wrote in 1993,
which was actually at the root of my journey into
philosophy, psychology, astrology, etc.
me, conscious
see
changes: time
more than one thing,
something else than me: space
want: pictures change
Kant discovered (or argued, if you prefer) that space
and time are the most fundamental things, the only things
that exist "a priori". Both are necessary for thinking.
The idea is to imagine that one opens one's eyes for the
first time and sees...
One thing that one notices, is that what one sees changes.
That is time.
In addition, there is more than one thing that can be
seen, and there is the conscious "I" that observes and
the pictures that are seen. That is space (anything that
separates two "things").
Without space and time, thinking is not possible.
Finally, one notices also that, depending on how one wants
what one sees to change, things will change differently
(Schopenhauer), although not necessarily in the way one
would like to. That is (free) will.
Now, that was where I was standing in 1993, simply putting
what Kant and Schopenhauer had discovered about 200 years
earlier into condensed form.
More than 10 years later, last Wednesday (2004-05-18) the
situation was a bit different: Saturn is in Cancer and
Chiron in Capricorn, which has, in my observation, the
effect that one is forced to reduce the "home" zone, to
retract a bit to an inner core and start to grow new things,
especially relations, gently from there, while avoiding
some of the old relations because they needed to be
removed (Chiron's healing). Luckily, Jupiter in Virgo is
helpful for growing new structures, even repeatedly.
Brief, I managed to connect a few things that I learned
in the meantime in a potentially very promising way.
Aristotle had the four elements composed of dry/wet and
hot/cold. During my newsgroup posts, I discovered a few
different ways of looking at this composition. One of
them is that in/out can be identified with wet/dry.
Many things, especially organic ones, are wetter inside
than outside. What is measured in science, is what can
be seen and touched (fire and earth), while quantum
mechanics uses logic (air) to describe what happens in
the world by a wave function (water).
If you link that to the fundamental link between space
and subject/object or in/out, you have linked one of the
two opposites that define the four elements directly to
space and thus to a primary necessity for thinking.
Now, with that working, I tried to get time in, in the
same way. Hot/cold does not do, but recently, I had
discovered here (also with some help by DJ) that the
opposite rest/move can also be used to describe one of
the two necessary pairs of opposites to describe the
four elements. Fire moves up, air rests (actively),
water flows down, earth rests again.
So the observation that some things that one sees move,
is nothing else than the discovery of the opposite
rest/move, which is practically equivalent to the
discovery that there is time, the other thing that is
fundamentally needed for thinking.
So, to get things across as clearly as possible: From
the basic experiences in/out and rest/move, one gets
space and time and can *define* the four elements:
fire:=out+move, earth:=out+rest, air:=in+rest, water:=in+move
Now, where's the clue?
Well, that was already the clue. It is an almost formal
reasoning that leads to the existence of four elements.
In other words, if the reasoning is correct, then the
fact that there are the four elements, in the way that
Aristotle and others postulated them, is not just a
cultural thing, but a property of *nature*, i.e. it is
physics, not "just" philosophy, psychology, astrology.
Of course, a lot will depend on whether that concept
can actually grow, whether it will be possible to
derive more of the properties of the four elements
and maybe even star signs, or the I Ching, etc. and,
of course, link that to quantitative experiments.
For the moment, at least the 5th element fits nicely:
The observation that, depending on how one wants
what one sees to change, things change differently,
defines (free) will, a concept separate of the four
elements that can be called/defined "5th element".
Again, the approach is different, a concept that is
common in astrology or maybe also psychology, has been
defined as something quite fundamental and necessary
for thinking and living.
Finally, note that Neptune is transiting in opposition
to my sun, so maybe things will stay at that and the
rest will remain an illusion, or do so for the moment.
The cat of the neighbors often comes by, Stoscha, a cat that is
clearly smarter than most and also otherwise special. But there
is something he either does not get or maybe simply does not want
to get. He often loves to chase a light spot, either reflected
from the sun with my watch or with a flashlight plus a tube, but
even when I try to show him the connection between my movements
and the light spot by moving, say, my watch close to the ground,
he does not get it or is not interested to get it. Conversely, I
once tried to do something similar with a shadow of something,
but then he just gave me look that said (without exaggeration)
"Do you think I am stupid and don't know what a shadow is?"...
One could argue that in wilderness, shadows are common, can
protect you from the sun, can maybe hide you, can warn you if
some other animals come, and so on, while dots of light might
rather be, say, insects reflecting light with their wings, hence
be prey, or other unusual circumstances or at least ones unlike
the situation with the shadows that are omnipresent.
Makes you, of course, also think of Plato's Cave Allegory, where
light and shadow also play a great role. Anyways, makes me simply
wonder if everybody has things that he/she/* cannot perceive, even
though they might be obvious to many or even practically everybody
else... Men and women, different cultures, and so on, hence the
title, of course also relating to the movie, which I once saw and
also liked, but did not investigate anything around it...
[In the morning of Sat 9 March 2024, with Mercury in late Pisces,
there was just a tiny spot of not more than about 8 cm x 8 cm of
sunlight in the laundry, where it had first happened accidentally
with my watch in sunlight, and since then he would often want to
go back there, even at night, when I would emulate the spot with
a cardboard tube and a small but very strong LED flashlight.
Now, that Saturday morning I put my watch into the spot and the
cat would chase its reflection as usual, but this time I caught
him one time looking at my watch, apparently at least making some
kind of connection between my watch and wrist and the reflection
on the floor, possibly because it was harder for me to stay in
the spot of light with my watch. This new twist might even make
it interesting enough in time to write an article about the idea
(or maybe not). The general idea of the original post was almost
certainly not new, in some sense obviously not new, but with the
ability to still learn in time, it becomes more interesting (as
I had already noticed earlier on, he had already learned in other
situations before that, only most of the time more slowly than a
human would and thus not immediately so obviously). This gives
also hope for relationships between humans, and whatever...
Well, maybe I could (or even did) also learn a bit in time...?
Maybe also around how to promote or not promote my discoveries?
Or also a bit more generally regarding how to live?
Who could ever tell for sure?
䷿ I:I :I: Wei Chi, but if the little fox... ]
What does Taoism say about that? Maybe nothing in some "direct"
sense? Can Yin understand Yang and/or vice versa? Isn't it in a
way just so that they are always separated from each other and
also connected to each other at the same time? Makes me think of
Zhuangzi's famous butterfly dream... Is there really a difference
between me and the cat of the neighbors upstairs, or is it rather
so that they are just parts of the same, and similarly with all
there is in life?
Reminds me also of an idea of mine, maybe 15 years ago, where I
had the idea not to describe the most fundamental things as some
kinds of "atoms" or "elementary particles" but rather as some kind
of Möbius Strip or the Yin-Yang symbol, just pack all the secrets
and mysteries of the world into that and then use these "Lego
Bricks" to build the world. Here is the article:
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/moebius-lego.pdf
And, since Usenet is going to get a step closer to vanishing from
even remote visibility soon, a link to all my posts to Usenet and
to other places:
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/noindex/odyssey/
Good luck to everybody...
Alain
one wrote:
: The well-frog and sea-turtle swim into view in Chapter 17
: of the Chuang-tzu too. The former couldn't fathom a notion
: about an ocean while the latter was unable to fit in the well.
Yes, in that light (pun!), maybe (or rather likely) I simply
cannot see the beauty and sophistication of the light spot
that Stoscha (the cat) can see in it...
Karel Čapek, From the Point of View of a Cat
(translated by Dora Round)
https://thefugitivesaint.tumblr.com/post/156425167673/karel-čapek-from-the-point-of-view-of-a-cat
"At those times he divines for an instant a glimpse
of a higher life, and he sighs with happiness and
purrs something which can almost be understood."
And thanks all also for the rest of the replies...
Alain
In my feeling a certain Saturn return was yesterday, Saturday
17 February 2024, at around 16:15 (4:15 PM CET, 15:15 UTC).
Before that, it felt a bit like "dying", very tense, and a few
minutes after 16:15 (maybe 16:20) I noticed that that had eased
down and since such tension had been there to some degree since
already some days earlier and the window for the return was
between yesterday 12:55 and today 13:01, it seems very likely
that the particular return would have taken place then.
Besides also showing that there would really be an immediate
connection between the involved, or at least their fates in
some way, the resulting birth time on pi's day of birth would
have been around 03:19 AM local time.
Makes sense, I guess...
Please no replies to this particular post. Thanks!
Alain
--
$ swetest -b17.2.2024 -ut15:15 -n1 -s1 -p6 -fPTlL -head
Saturn 17.02.2024 15:15:00 UT 338.4074999 338°24'26.9997
$ swetest -b5.3.1965 -ut02:19:02 -n1 -s1 -p6 -fPTlL -head
Saturn 05.03.1965 2:19:02 UT 338.4074999 338°24'26.9998
Von einer "Bekannten", dich ich seit 2002 schon öfters erwähnte,
kenne ich nur das Geburtsdatum und fast sicher den Geburtsort.
Nun war letztes Wochenende zwischen Samstag 17.02.2024 um 12:55
und Sonntag 18.02.2024 um 13:01 ihre einzige Saturn-Rückkehr des
zweiten Zyklus. Ich konnte schon ein paar Tage zuvor recht viel
"Druck" spüren, und dann ganz besonders am Samstag, fühlte sich
sogar irgendwie wie "sterben" an in gewisser Weise...
Dieses Gefühl war dann weg etwa um 16:25, ich merkte es erst ein
kleines bisschen danach, daher vermute ich stark, die Saturn-
Rückkehr wäre um 16:20 gewesen plus/minus ganz wenige Minuten,
aber doch am ehesten einfach um 16:20. Es war auch den Rest des
Wochenendes bis heute viel entspannter, und ich konnte bei mir
selbst da auch keine besonderen Transite sehen, die annähernd
am Samstag um 16:20 gewesen wären.
Also, angenommen, da wäre die Saturn-Rückkehr gewesen, dann wäre
die Geburtszeit um 03:19 Ortszeit gewesen am Tag ihrer Geburt,
mit AC einigermassen früh im Steinbock und MC noch im ersten
Dekan des Skorpions mit Asteroid 100 Hekate am MC. Das macht für
mich schon Sinn, sogar soviel, dass ich mir eher dumm vorkomme,
dass ich das nicht früher schon so sah, aber besser wäre wohl
"blind" als Wort, "Liebe macht blind", was alles nicht heissen
soll, dass das eine schlimme Geburtszeit wäre, keineswegs, ist
nur so, dass meine Phantasien etwas anderes waren, einfach nicht
so direkt realistisch, lieber alle Varianten erhalten (und ev. ja
auch sie selbst als Fisch), auch wegen der Quincunx der Sonnen.
Jedenfalls eine interessante Methode; sie sollte auch bei einem
selbst funktionieren, also bei Leuten, die die eigene Geburtszeit
nicht kennen und das aber gerne tun würden. Und wohl symbolisch
passend aufgrund dessen, dass Saturn via Kronos/Chronos mit Zeit
zu tun hat. Und natürlich auch so, dass man relativ lange warten
muss mit der Methode der Rektifizierung der Geburtszeit, bis zu
ca. 29.5 Jahre...
Anyways, fast fertig Usenet via Google, und wird wohl insgesamt
nicht mehr so lange leben, da v.a. noch für Raubkopien und so
genutzt (binäre Gruppen), aber wer weiss, von mir aus darf es
sehr gerne noch weiter leben...
Alain
--
$ swetest -b17.2.2024 -ut15:15 -n1 -s1 -p6 -fPTlL -head
Saturn 17.02.2024 15:15:00 UT 338.4074999 338°24'26.9997
$ swetest -b5.3.1965 -ut02:19:02 -n1 -s1 -p6 -fPTlL -head
Saturn 05.03.1965 2:19:02 UT 338.4074999 338°24'26.9998
Es hatte noch einen kleinen Fehler im Post gestern, die
Zeiten waren 16:15 und 16:20 bei der gefühlten Saturn-
Rückkehr von Pi, nicht 16:20/16:25, aber die Geburtszeit
daraus dann schon um 03:19, da war kein Fehler.
Viele Assoziationen, wie in Apollia's Traum wo der Kopf
von Pi erst durch eine kleine blau-grüne Öffnung in der
Decke einer Kuppel trat und herunterschwebte, und sie
dann einen dunklen Umhang ablegte und da stand, und auf
Apollia's Frage im Traum ob sie (Pi) mich lieben würde
mit dem Gesicht wie einfror, etwa das Gegenteil wie bei
Kubin in "Die andere Seite", und so weiter...
Natürlich auch ähnlicher AC+MC wie meine Mutter, was eben
auch etwas war, was mich wohl mit dem Buchprojekt ELEMENTAL
etwas zurückhielt, aber so ist es halt eben doch mehr noch
was wo sie (Pi) elementar beteiligt ist, sieht man auch am
Pseudonym, das ich im Januar 2019 "gewählt" hatte. Und ja,
da ist auch Pi's aktueller Freund "in da real world", mit
Sonne, Mond und Mondknoten fast genauso wie ich, nur fast
genau 19 Jahre jünger...
"Je ne regrette rien..."
Und meine Werke (oder "unsere" mit wohl viel Mitwirkenden)
werden wohl erst weiter in der Zukunft, wenn überhaupt,
Interesse wecken, aber schaut doch trotzdem mal rein auf
https://www.exactphilosophy.net/
hat auch ganz, ganz, ganz viel direkt zu und um Astrologie,
einfach mal wirklich darin eintauchen, lohnt sich echt...
Und zu Google's Usenet, das obligate "Bye bye and thanks
for all the fish!" (42), the limits of control, but if the
little fox, Tokyo/Kyoto, Beachwood Dr. Hollywood, Pi(e),
"How did you get in here?" "I used my imagination" (!)
Und ja, das spüren auf Distanz gibt es in meiner Wahrnehmung
wohl tatsächlich, nur selten natürlich, aber dann ja auch so
dass mit "spin 1 symmetry", aber lest es doch selbst nach...
Just to stake the claim here once more... Eppur si muove.
Dreaming of ELEMENTAL... Sleeping Beauty Dreaming...
Alain
Und vielleicht ist ja doch alles anders...?
[Nein, es ist wohl schon einfach so... Übrigens wären die Häuser beim
("korrigierten") Combin fast genau so wie bei der Registrierung der
Domäne exactphilosophy.net gewesen, je AC in der Waage, MC im Krebs.
Und die Saturnrückkehr zum Combin (das übrigens Geburtsort nahe Passau
hätte), wäre bereits schon am 6. März 2024 um 00:02 gewesen, und die
hatte ich allem Anschein nach auch gespürt, auch wenn der Übergang da
weniger deutlich spürbar war, allerdings war beim Combin der Saturn
wohl relativ langsam gewesen, also bzgl. Geburtszeit sowieso nicht so
sehr aussagekräftig (allerdings nicht genau gerechnet), und ev. waren
es an dem Tag rum noch meine anderen Transite, die verhinderten, dass
nach 00:02 der Druck deutlicher als gespürt abgefallen wäre. Aber es
hatte sich doch was geändert, gefühlt sogar eher so 20 sec vor 00:02.
Und zu meinen Entdeckungen, vielleicht wirklich einfach sein lassen,
und träumen ? Weiss auch nicht, am Ehesten wieder "wei chi", but if
the little fox, ewiger Vorfrühling, immer kurz vor dem Wachsen... Und
es doch wachsen lassen, wenn es will, auf der Website oder anderswo,
eben weiterhin wohl schön und wie einen Zen Garten in Kyoto...
Und ist immer noch so: Sie ist vor über 12 Jahren nach Zürich gezogen
mit ihrem neuen Freund, nach zuvor über 20 Jahren an anderen Orten, mit
sicher auch sehr gut vertretbaren Begründungen ohne meiner Wenigkeit,
und doch... Es ist jedenfalls wohl nun einfach alles so, wie es sein
soll und kann, vielleicht ein bisschen wie beim Film "Záhrada"...]